Re: [Gimp-developer] about carol

[Sven Neumann]

Hi Bill,

On Fri, 2007-06-22 at 10:27 -0700, William Skaggs wrote:
> It would be helpful to get more input from yosh.

He already said (in this thread) that he is very busy this week and that
he will comment on it later. Can we please just calm down now and give
him time to answer?


Sven


___
Gimp-developer mailing list
Gimp-developer@lists.XCF.Berkeley.EDU
https://lists.XCF.Berkeley.EDU/mailman/listinfo/gimp-developer

Re: [Gimp-developer] about carol

[William Skaggs]

It would be helpful to get more input from yosh.

  -- Bill
 

 
__ __ __ __
Sent via the CNPRC Email system at primate.ucdavis.edu


 
   
___
Gimp-developer mailing list
Gimp-developer@lists.XCF.Berkeley.EDU
https://lists.XCF.Berkeley.EDU/mailman/listinfo/gimp-developer

Re: [Gimp-developer] about carol

[Tor Lillqvist]

Campbell Barton writes:
 > Since carol had the composure to be civil with people face-to-face makes 
 > me think that she does KNOW BETTER... 

I am not so sure. At LGM2007 there was at least one occasion where I
was present when carol started her typical carol-speak, and
(predictably) directing odd insinuative questions to one of the female
developers present. I guess most of us others just thought "oh. here
we go again" and tried to pretend we didn't listen (at least I
did). Luckily the subject of carol's harrassment this time understoof
what was going on and didn't bother feeding the troll, so nothing more
serious happened.

--tml
___
Gimp-developer mailing list
Gimp-developer@lists.XCF.Berkeley.EDU
https://lists.XCF.Berkeley.EDU/mailman/listinfo/gimp-developer

Re: [Gimp-developer] about carol

[Campbell Barton]

Louis Desjardins wrote:
> 2007/6/22, Sven Neumann <[EMAIL PROTECTED] >:
> 
> She has stopped her contributions long ago and she has been asked to
> leave several times now. It is about time that this finally happens.
> 
> 
> Hi Sven,
> 
> Isn't there a way on the channels (IRC, bugtracker, mailing list) to 
> simply restrain the access to a specific individual when things get to a 
> point where repetitive demands and persuasion don't seem to give any 
> results?
> 
> Let's face it, I realize this is pretty unusual and must very rarely 
> happen but there is a possibility that someone else steps in one day 
> with the same behavior. While there are of course no ways to prevent 
> this upstream can we at least make sure there are ways to prevent this 
> person from being in contact with the community once the problem has 
> been clearly identified?
> 
> I really wish we can sort this out because this might happen elsewhere 
> in any other project. It is not an exclusivity of the gimp team!
> 
> Louis
> 
> Sven

 From my experience in a few OSS community's, this would seem to be a 
fairly rare incident.

Some developers can probably come over snobby or arrogant but to be 
abusive (thats what I gather has happened) is something I havnt seen before.

If I ever acted in a way that hurt the Blender3D community, I would be 
kicked out before I did too much damage.
Its most surprising this behavior has been this tolerated for so long.

Since carol had the composure to be civil with people face-to-face makes 
me think that she does KNOW BETTER... and that her behavior is something 
she allows herself online where one can have less inhabitation's saying 
offensive stuff.

Its not like you are being unreasonable, Sven has said he wanted the old 
Carol back and if one day Carol decides she is ready to come back into 
the community - She could could earn back some respect and contribute again.

I have know people to go through mental illness and have sympathy for 
her if this is the case, but that dosnt mean you let her hurt a project 
thats important to many people and the linux community at large.



PS. I dont know what homo-erotic means exactly but hey-
Whatever helps coders, and is safer then rugby.
___
Gimp-developer mailing list
Gimp-developer@lists.XCF.Berkeley.EDU
https://lists.XCF.Berkeley.EDU/mailman/listinfo/gimp-developer

Re: [Gimp-developer] about carol

[Louis Desjardins]

2007/6/22, Sven Neumann <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>:


She has stopped her contributions long ago and she has been asked to leave
several times now. It is about time that this finally happens.



Hi Sven,

Isn't there a way on the channels (IRC, bugtracker, mailing list) to simply
restrain the access to a specific individual when things get to a point
where repetitive demands and persuasion don't seem to give any results?

Let's face it, I realize this is pretty unusual and must very rarely happen
but there is a possibility that someone else steps in one day with the same
behavior. While there are of course no ways to prevent this upstream can we
at least make sure there are ways to prevent this person from being in
contact with the community once the problem has been clearly identified?

I really wish we can sort this out because this might happen elsewhere in
any other project. It is not an exclusivity of the gimp team!

Louis

Sven


___
Gimp-developer mailing list
Gimp-developer@lists.XCF.Berkeley.EDU
https://lists.XCF.Berkeley.EDU/mailman/listinfo/gimp-developer

Re: [Gimp-developer] about carol

[Sven Neumann]

Hi,

On Thu, 2007-06-21 at 16:39 -0400, Louis Desjardins wrote:

> Carol was at LGM this year and she was not hiding away, at least from
> what I saw. Anyone could meet her face to face. I had the chance to
> have a few short conversations with her but being the organiser time
> has not allowed us to discuss as much as we did in Lyon last year. I
> am not aware if anybody has discussed with her on the particular
> subject of her threads on IRC but in any event it would have been of
> course a nice occasion to do so. 

You are bringing up another point here. Carol had been explicitely asked
not to show up at LGM and she also ignored this request. Of course since
this is a public event, anyone can show up. But she has been on several
GIMP meetings before and over the last years managed to take the fun out
of such meetings and even spoiled them. The fact that she will be around
was one of the main reasons for me not to come to Canada this year. If I
would have met her again, I might have done something stupid.

People who have been to Montreal have told me that she was a constant
threat, annoying people and spreading misinformation. It is very harmful
to have her appear on such events. And I definitely don't want anyone to
get the impression that she's a member of the GIMP team. She has stopped
her contributions long ago and she has been asked to leave several times
now. It is about time that this finally happens.


Sven


___
Gimp-developer mailing list
Gimp-developer@lists.XCF.Berkeley.EDU
https://lists.XCF.Berkeley.EDU/mailman/listinfo/gimp-developer

Re: [Gimp-developer] about carol

[Mukund Sivaraman]

Hi Louis

Louis Desjardins wrote:

> I did not intend to offend anybody here. If I did, I apologize in advance.

You do not offend. You probably wrote this email with the best
intentions, but you seem unaware of many things that have happened.


> I cannot discuss the reasons of each and everyone talking here in their
> personal name as I barely show up on IRC on the gimp channel. I believe
> each has good reasons to express what they feel regarding Carol's
> behavior. At the same time, I for one feel pretty unconfortable with
> where this discussion is heading now that it has deviated on medical
> "diagnostic"... and still being made public. I strongly believe the
> advice on Carol's condition is completely out of the purpose of this
> list — of any list, I should say. This is private matter. A public
> discussion on an archived list is not the same as a kitchen discussion
> with whoever about whatever or whoever. I am really unconfortable now
> and I believe I am not alone in this situation.

Firstly this `medical help' criticism has gone way overboard. I did not
reveal some secret file about Carol, or something that was actually
diagnosed by a doctor who confided in me. My _opinion_ was from her
public behaviour towards me and others in the IRC channel and emails.
This opinion is not irrational or random, and I am entitled to say it
having been publicly harassed and I have proof to back it up. When I say
she should seek help, I say that out of sympathy.

Almost every GIMP developer is aware of her eccentric behaviour and my
email was written out of frustration, having read something that very
day on IRC.

It pretty much concerns this list, because developers will leave unless
this topic is solved (there is a limit to tolerating harassment), and
this thread was started by the maintainer of GIMP. This thread _is_
about Carol's behaviour.


> 
> I suggest to stop this thread and refrain from commenting further on
> personnal things such as the health of somebody. At the same time, I
> think that once the heat will be down a few degrees, the case should be
> discussed among the team on a private channel and preferably including
> Carol so she can express herself or at least understand what is going on
> and if exclusion is voted, at the very least the accused person knows
> exaclty what are the reproaches made to her, from an official point of
> view, with objective rules that anyone can understand and agree upon. I
> guess that before getting this far, an official warning should take
> place. If nothing changes, then a final warning and then, the
> consequences of being banned from the various gimp channels or monitored
> or whatever measures the team decides. The  incremental consequences of
> a specific bad behavior should be publicly known. The bad behavior
> should be clearly identified too, and described. These rules are
> necessary for any kind of human community.
> 

You seem to talk of ideal conditions, which haven't existed. Who is
`official' exactly? Yosh? Sven? You and me? So far there have been
disagreements, and complaints have gone unanswered, and I guess this
thread was started out of frustration by Sven. You talk of these
official methods---do you know of our complaints so far? Carol has been
asked politely several times to leave the project, and has been
explained the reasons for it which she is well aware of. Nobody is
prejudiced here. If she is to change today completely and turn a new
leaf, she will be welcome. But that seems very unlikely, going by how
she doesn't seem to care. She had received her `final warning' several
times from Sven.

Discussions should be public. This is a public project, people were
harassed in public on IRC. IMHO, the discussion should be public so that
everyone including Carol knows what progressed, and we can all say what
we have to say.


> The gimp officials have to discuss about the facts going on the gimp
> channels. Nothing less. Nothing more. And take action on these facts,
> leaving behind any further considerations and suppositions.

This is exactly what was discussed. And when you have a person speaking
like a nutcase in public, it's not entirely unexpected if someone calls
him/her a nutcase. It's not a secret or some private data made public.
Linus called the Subversion developers stupid in his Git talk and meant
it, for just getting merging wrong.

I am not exactly prejudiced as I think somewhere inside she is probably
a good person, but I have sure been irritated by her (and it seems that
that's continuing, considering what happened yesterday morning which was
out of the blue having had her on /ignore for a long time).


Kind regards,

Mukund




signature.asc
Description: OpenPGP digital signature
___
Gimp-developer mailing list
Gimp-developer@lists.XCF.Berkeley.EDU
https://lists.XCF.Berkeley.EDU/mailman/listinfo/gimp-developer

Re: [Gimp-developer] about carol

[Louis Desjardins]

2007/6/21, Mukund Sivaraman <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>:


Hi Raphael

Raphaël Quinet wrote:
> On Thu, 21 Jun 2007 12:51:50 + (UTC), Daniel Pisano <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
wrote:
>> Mukund Sivaraman  mukund.org> writes:
>>> If there are anyone who know her personally and are nearby, please get
>>> her medical attention.
>> Yes, please. Her condition is serious.
>
> You both raised several valid points about Carol's unacceptable
> behavior.  However, it would have been better to avoid stating on
> a public mailing list that she needs medical attention (regardless
> of whether it is true or not).  These comments should have been
> private.  They can easily be perceived as an insult and they
> weaken your other arguments because you are attacking her person
> instead of her behavior.
>

I was not attacking at all. It was something I suggested for her own
good, as a trained professional like a psychiatrist can understand her
problems better and suggest activities which can make her feel better.
This is clearly my personal opinion from observation. I should not have
said she's insane as I have no real idea of what her medical condition
is, or if she needs treatment, and I am not a doctor. I apologize for
that comment, but it was really my opinion.


Kind regards,

Mukund



Good day to all reading this thread with interest and feeding it with the
best intentions.

Carol was at LGM this year and she was not hiding away, at least from what I
saw. Anyone could meet her face to face. I had the chance to have a few
short conversations with her but being the organiser time has not allowed us
to discuss as much as we did in Lyon last year. I am not aware if anybody
has discussed with her on the particular subject of her threads on IRC but
in any event it would have been of course a nice occasion to do so.

I cannot discuss the reasons of each and everyone talking here in their
personal name as I barely show up on IRC on the gimp channel. I believe each
has good reasons to express what they feel regarding Carol's behavior. At
the same time, I for one feel pretty unconfortable with where this
discussion is heading now that it has deviated on medical "diagnostic"...
and still being made public. I strongly believe the advice on Carol's
condition is completely out of the purpose of this list — of any list, I
should say. This is private matter. A public discussion on an archived list
is not the same as a kitchen discussion with whoever about whatever or
whoever. I am really unconfortable now and I believe I am not alone in this
situation.

I suggest to stop this thread and refrain from commenting further on
personnal things such as the health of somebody. At the same time, I think
that once the heat will be down a few degrees, the case should be discussed
among the team on a private channel and preferably including Carol so she
can express herself or at least understand what is going on and if exclusion
is voted, at the very least the accused person knows exaclty what are the
reproaches made to her, from an official point of view, with objective rules
that anyone can understand and agree upon. I guess that before getting this
far, an official warning should take place. If nothing changes, then a final
warning and then, the consequences of being banned from the various gimp
channels or monitored or whatever measures the team decides. The
incremental consequences of a specific bad behavior should be publicly
known. The bad behavior should be clearly identified too, and described.
These rules are necessary for any kind of human community.

The gimp officials have to discuss about the facts going on the gimp
channels. Nothing less. Nothing more. And take action on these facts,
leaving behind any further considerations and suppositions.

I did not intend to offend anybody here. If I did, I apologize in advance.

Peace to everyone.

Louis

___

Gimp-developer mailing list
Gimp-developer@lists.XCF.Berkeley.EDU
https://lists.XCF.Berkeley.EDU/mailman/listinfo/gimp-developer

___
Gimp-developer mailing list
Gimp-developer@lists.XCF.Berkeley.EDU
https://lists.XCF.Berkeley.EDU/mailman/listinfo/gimp-developer

Re: [Gimp-developer] about carol

[jernej]

On Tuesday, June 19, 2007, 9:01:46, Sven Neumann wrote:

> I don't know if everyone of the GIMP development team is as annoyed of
> Carol as I am, but I know that there are quite a few people who are.

I personally haven't had much interaction with Carol, but that was
because I saw her behaviour towards others, and avoided her
intentionally. I have on several occasions saw her torment newbies on
IRC, and I have in some cases advised them in private to just ignore
her.

-- 
< Jernej Simončič ><><><><>< http://deepthought.ena.si/ >

Find out the cost before you get in.
   -- Taxi Principle

___
Gimp-developer mailing list
Gimp-developer@lists.XCF.Berkeley.EDU
https://lists.XCF.Berkeley.EDU/mailman/listinfo/gimp-developer

Re: [Gimp-developer] about carol

[Manish Singh]

On Thu, Jun 21, 2007 at 05:29:15PM +, Daniel Pisano wrote:
> Hence my motivation to speak out in this thread. And I have no more to
> say about this matter, since all that I could do, I have done.

I haven't read all the postings in this thread yet, as this week is busy
for me, but I have to say that your posting about this is extremely
hypocritical, as *your* tendency to blather on ridiculously, especially
on IRC, as driven people from the project as well.

Perhaps you should seek help for your mental illness yourself before
talking about others.

I'll comment on the rest of this thread later, since the other postings
aren't by disturbed hypocrites and merit constructive responses.

-Yosh
___
Gimp-developer mailing list
Gimp-developer@lists.XCF.Berkeley.EDU
https://lists.XCF.Berkeley.EDU/mailman/listinfo/gimp-developer

Re: [Gimp-developer] about carol

[Daniel Pisano]

Raphaël Quinet  gimp.org> writes:

>
> On Thu, 21 Jun 2007 12:51:50 + (UTC), Daniel Pisano 
web.de> wrote:
> > Mukund Sivaraman  mukund.org> writes:
> > > If there are anyone who know her personally and are nearby, please get
> > > her medical attention.
> >
> > Yes, please. Her condition is serious.
>
> You both raised several valid points about Carol's unacceptable
> behavior.  However, it would have been better to avoid stating on
> a public mailing list that she needs medical attention (regardless
> of whether it is true or not).

I have no reason to withhold a justifiable personal opinion or evaluation.
The collected written evidence of the personal harassment which I endured
speaks for itself and is available for inspection by anyone with a legit
interest anytime.

> These comments should have been private.

They have been in my case since 2004. Yet it appears that the situation has not
improved in at least the last three years.

The reported desensitization, the trained mild tolerance and the resulting
indifference in the IRC channels of many plainly onlooking members of the
community leads me to believe that most people have not grasped the seriousness
or nature of her condition yet. Otherwise, the community would have behaved and
reacted differently and much earlier.

Hers is not a bad habit, it is a serious problem or maybe even a mental
illness.

Many people out there keep being alcoholics or regularly exert domestic violence
against their wives and children because their environment excuses their
behavior as being just a bad habit or ignores what in reality requires
professional attention.
This should not happen to the GIMP community.

It is by voicing this opinion of mine that I can contribute towards a higher
alertness and indicate a possible source of the problem that the community has
been quite unable to recognize and handle so far.
Looking away never helps anyone.

>  They can easily be perceived as an insult and they
> weaken your other arguments because you are attacking her person
> instead of her behavior.

Quite the contrary. A person with a serious psychological condition is
unable to help herself any more once they exceeded a certain point, and thus she
has to rely on well-meaning external input, recognition and professional
assistance in order to get a chance of regaining normality.

What you think of as an insult may be the only really useful statement alerting
her unaware social environment of her need for help.

It is indeed by not saying anything that we would insult or even endanger her
person in her current situation.

> I just want her to stop doing what she is doing to the project;
> I do not care about the rest of her life.

I agree on the first statement, but I strongly object to the second.

Indeed, every person is responsible for leading her own life. Carol's
problem is that she not only is unable to lead her own life, but that she tries
to take massive influence on other people's lives, messing with them
inappropriately.

While I could not care less about carol, the offensive character in an online
community, but I _do_ care indirectly about Carol, the human being, since
I care about the well-being of any fellow human being, no matter who he is. My
contribution towards that premise is my public statement of what I believe
to be the problem and then relying on those who actually are in the position to
help her to do their part. So while I am not going to spend any special effort
in actually saving her, I opt to do the utmost that I can do under the
circumstances without incurring a loss myself. If what is left of her social
environment then is motivated or alerted to help her, then I have made a useful
contribution. If not, then I have at least tried to fight indifference.

Hence my motivation to speak out in this thread. And I have no more to
say about this matter, since all that I could do, I have done.


over and out,
and kind regards,

   Daniel


___
Gimp-developer mailing list
Gimp-developer@lists.XCF.Berkeley.EDU
https://lists.XCF.Berkeley.EDU/mailman/listinfo/gimp-developer

Re: [Gimp-developer] about carol

[Mukund Sivaraman]

Hi Raphael

Raphaël Quinet wrote:
> On Thu, 21 Jun 2007 12:51:50 + (UTC), Daniel Pisano <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> 
> wrote:
>> Mukund Sivaraman  mukund.org> writes:
>>> If there are anyone who know her personally and are nearby, please get
>>> her medical attention.
>> Yes, please. Her condition is serious.
> 
> You both raised several valid points about Carol's unacceptable
> behavior.  However, it would have been better to avoid stating on
> a public mailing list that she needs medical attention (regardless
> of whether it is true or not).  These comments should have been
> private.  They can easily be perceived as an insult and they
> weaken your other arguments because you are attacking her person
> instead of her behavior.
> 

I was not attacking at all. It was something I suggested for her own
good, as a trained professional like a psychiatrist can understand her
problems better and suggest activities which can make her feel better.
This is clearly my personal opinion from observation. I should not have
said she's insane as I have no real idea of what her medical condition
is, or if she needs treatment, and I am not a doctor. I apologize for
that comment, but it was really my opinion.


Kind regards,

Mukund




signature.asc
Description: OpenPGP digital signature
___
Gimp-developer mailing list
Gimp-developer@lists.XCF.Berkeley.EDU
https://lists.XCF.Berkeley.EDU/mailman/listinfo/gimp-developer

Re: [Gimp-developer] about carol

[Raphaël Quinet]

On Thu, 21 Jun 2007 12:51:50 + (UTC), Daniel Pisano <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> 
wrote:
> Mukund Sivaraman  mukund.org> writes:
> > If there are anyone who know her personally and are nearby, please get
> > her medical attention.
> 
> Yes, please. Her condition is serious.

You both raised several valid points about Carol's unacceptable
behavior.  However, it would have been better to avoid stating on
a public mailing list that she needs medical attention (regardless
of whether it is true or not).  These comments should have been
private.  They can easily be perceived as an insult and they
weaken your other arguments because you are attacking her person
instead of her behavior.

I still have some respect for Carol as a person and her medical
condition is none of my business.  However, her behavior is not
acceptable and it has a negative impact on the project and its
developers, as can be seen from the comments posted here.

I just want her to stop doing what she is doing to the project;
I do not care about the rest of her life.  Considering that she
did not stop despite numerous requests over the years, Sven is
right in that some administrative action is required now.  And as
sad as it might be, she should also understand that her actions
resulted in her not being welcome anymore.  She used to be a
member of the GIMP community, but not anymore.  She should try to
find some other people who welcome her, preferably in real life
and not online.

-Raphaël

P.S.: I'll stop patronizing now.  I also have my bad habits...
___
Gimp-developer mailing list
Gimp-developer@lists.XCF.Berkeley.EDU
https://lists.XCF.Berkeley.EDU/mailman/listinfo/gimp-developer

Re: [Gimp-developer] about carol

[Daniel Pisano]

Mukund Sivaraman  mukund.org> writes:

> I also think she's genuinely insane and needs to seek medical attention
> (seriously). She may not be doing all of this on purpose for fun, but
> maybe because she has mental issues.

Having been a target of one of her episodes in 2004 myself, I went at great,
exhaustive length to explain her obvious and serious condition of codependence
to her using a series of many small and simple arguments building up to my
notion of her problem.

This was only met at first with more insults and aggression, and once she
learned that I would not budge from my position, subsequently was met with utter
silence. I think I got lucky, considering all that has happened since.

I believe that she is in dire need of professional help.

> But nothing works and she just replies with nonsense. Reasoning
> with her has no effect.

This statement matches my own observation completely.

> - Even today she claimed something silly, that I had sent a person this
> morning into the channel to ask her about my authoring a plug-in, when I
> had had absolutely no communication with her in the recent past
> whatsoever. I have her on ignore nowadays, but her message got through
> because I was IRC'ing from a new place.

One of her methods to involve people into playing along to her mind games and
hence feed the requirements of her condition is the declaration of false
statements as to force people to react.

Another is to provide unsolicited "help" so that people receiving it would
"thank her later" for it.

Wikipedia has an entry on "Codependence". I suggest considering this to beher
problem.

> If there are anyone who know her personally and are nearby, please get
> her medical attention.

Yes, please. Her condition is serious.


greetings,

   Daniel Pisano



___
Gimp-developer mailing list
Gimp-developer@lists.XCF.Berkeley.EDU
https://lists.XCF.Berkeley.EDU/mailman/listinfo/gimp-developer

Re: [Gimp-developer] about carol

[Øyvind Kolås]

On 6/19/07, Sven Neumann <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
> I don't know if everyone of the GIMP development team is as annoyed of
> Carol as I am, but I know that there are quite a few people who are.
>
[...]
>
> We will have to do something about this situation. Or even more
> developers, including myself, will leave the project. As a start, I ask
> everyone who feels harrassed by Carol to tell her that she is not
> welcome and to ask her to leave. Perhaps then she realizes that this is
> not just a personal threat from me.

She has caused a lot of noise in the GIMP project. People have left the project
and potential new contributors navigated away upon encountering her. A lot of
the cognitive load of monitoring the #gimp IRC channel is spent dechipering her
hidden meanings and presumed contexts. Spending the time of contributors and
potential contributors in non-constructive ways makes enjoying the enhancement
of GIMP harder than it should need to be. For some time the suggested work
around for the issue has been to put carol on /ignore. This temporary work
around might work for individual developers, but it has just been a
postponement
of a broader issue. This issue is in my opinion best fixed for GIMP by
carol ceasing to interfere and socialize with the project.

/Øyvind K.
-- 
«The future is already here. It's just not very evenly distributed»
 -- William Gibson
http://pippin.gimp.org/http://ffii.org/
___
Gimp-developer mailing list
Gimp-developer@lists.XCF.Berkeley.EDU
https://lists.XCF.Berkeley.EDU/mailman/listinfo/gimp-developer

Re: [Gimp-developer] about carol

[Raphaël Quinet]

On Tue, 19 Jun 2007 09:01:46 +0200, Sven Neumann <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
> I don't know if everyone of the GIMP development team is as annoyed of
> Carol as I am, but I know that there are quite a few people who are.

As I have been involved in several incidents with Carol some years
ago, I should probably comment on this.  For a while, I felt
responsible for all the bad things happening to Carol.  I still
feel sorry about what happened in 2003.  But I cannot feel
responsible for what Carol has been doing since then (which is not
very different from what she did before anyway).  Also, I used
to be upset whenever Carol was posting nasty comments on IRC or on
the GIMP mailing lists.  I have learned to ignore the negative
comments and only pay attention to her useful contributions, but
newcomers and casual contributors do not have the opportunity to
know this in advance.

It was a pleasure for me to meet Carol at LGM last year and discover
that we can have friendly face-to-face conversations.  This is
something that I appreciated very much.  Unfortunately, this does
not seem to be the case online: her negative messages or gibberish
on IRC or by e-mail have discouraged more than one contributor.  So
while I thank Carol for her contributions to the GIMP web site or
for her own web site and tutorials, I think that her behavior online
has brought more harm than good and has seriously hurt the project.

I am not sure about the best way to handle this because I hate
excluding people, but preventing her from harrassing others on IRC
and removing her op access would certainly be a good start.

-Raphaël
___
Gimp-developer mailing list
Gimp-developer@lists.XCF.Berkeley.EDU
https://lists.XCF.Berkeley.EDU/mailman/listinfo/gimp-developer

Re: [Gimp-developer] about carol

[Shlomi Fish]

Hi all!

On Tuesday 19 June 2007, Sven Neumann wrote:
> Hi,
>
> I don't know if everyone of the GIMP development team is as annoyed of
> Carol as I am, but I know that there are quite a few people who are.
>
> It has been a pleasure for me to notice that she stopped mailing to
> gimp-developer and gimp-user a while ago. In my opinion, the quality of
> the lists has improved and participating has become a lot more fun since
> she's gone.
>
> However she is still permanently around in #gimp and probably also in
> other GIMP related IRC channels. And she also hasn't stopped posting to
> our bug-tracker. I have asked her to stop doing that. I have asked her
> to leave the GIMP channels. But she doesn't respect this.

I should note that I have had my own share of bad experiences dealing with 
Carol, and seeing her harass people who are trying to learn or contribute to 
GIMP, although they weren't as bad as what some people here have described.

So I support all actions that are necessary to keep her in control. She still 
seems to be doing much more harm than good.

Regards,

Shlomi Fish

-
Shlomi Fish  [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Homepage:http://www.shlomifish.org/

If it's not in my E-mail it doesn't happen. And if my E-mail is saying
one thing, and everything else says something else - E-mail will conquer.
-- An Israeli Linuxer
___
Gimp-developer mailing list
Gimp-developer@lists.XCF.Berkeley.EDU
https://lists.XCF.Berkeley.EDU/mailman/listinfo/gimp-developer

Re: [Gimp-developer] about carol

[g4]

On Tue, 19 Jun 2007 19:02:19 +0200, Mukund Sivaraman <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>  
wrote:

> I also think she's genuinely insane and needs to seek medical attention
> (seriously). She may not be doing all of this on purpose for fun, but
> maybe because she has mental issues.

I think she indicated in one post last year that she had been through a  
"very, very difficult" period. She is certainly getting help. But there's  
a limit as to how much understanding and lee way can be given and even  
whether this is helpful.

I dont think that allowing her to continue her "drama" here is in anyway  
helping her therapy. Allowing her behaviour to continue by lack of action  
is probably even giving her the illusion that it is someway acceptable.

She has obviously created enough frustration and ill-will to necessitate  
action. It seems improper that she has a gimp.org email since that will  
automatically mean those who dont know her will associate her comments  
with the project. That clearly is unacceptable.

/gg
___
Gimp-developer mailing list
Gimp-developer@lists.XCF.Berkeley.EDU
https://lists.XCF.Berkeley.EDU/mailman/listinfo/gimp-developer

Re: [Gimp-developer] about carol

[Karine Delvare]

Sven Neumann <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:

> We will have to do something about this situation. Or even more
> developers, including myself, will leave the project. As a start, I
> ask everyone who feels harrassed by Carol to tell her that she is not
> welcome and to ask her to leave. Perhaps then she realizes that this
> is not just a personal threat from me.

Forcing someone to leave is a terrible thing. But as Simon and Mukund
said, we have tried everything else we could think about (and I've not
even been here from the beginnning).

It took me one year to finally ignore Carol's comments and personal
attacks, and to stop considering leaving the project. Nobody should have
to put up with that to contribute, our energy is better used
contributing. Nowadays nothing she says can hurt me anymore, and it's
sad to ignore someone to that point. Nevertheless, there are reasons
why I'm not contributing much to the project and the channel talking
anymore, and Carol is one of those.

I know one new contributor who left after a few weeks because she was
attacked by Carol for being a woman, and couldn't believe the team
would let such attacks go through and barely react. We are all used to
ignore her to be able to go on with the project, but that can be really
harmful.

Karine
___
Gimp-developer mailing list
Gimp-developer@lists.XCF.Berkeley.EDU
https://lists.XCF.Berkeley.EDU/mailman/listinfo/gimp-developer

Re: [Gimp-developer] about carol

[Mukund Sivaraman]

Hi

Sven Neumann wrote:
> 
> We will have to do something about this situation. Or even more
> developers, including myself, will leave the project. As a start, I ask
> everyone who feels harrassed by Carol to tell her that she is not
> welcome and to ask her to leave. Perhaps then she realizes that this is
> not just a personal threat from me.

I'd hate to do this to any other, but this situation has gone unchecked
for a long time. Having been a target of her somehow scornful and insane
behavior several times, I also ask for her removal, but more than that,
I also think she's genuinely insane and needs to seek medical attention
(seriously). She may not be doing all of this on purpose for fun, but
maybe because she has mental issues.

#gimp is not your average IRC room. Similar to other rooms on GimpNet,
developers get together there and there's mutual respect. Among the
things I remember:

- She `attacks' people in the channel, such as this one time when she
was annoyed with akk and she tried to drag me into the conversation ---
I had just quit my job of 5 years and when I refused to participate in
her attacks and wanted to be left alone, she points out my employment
situation on IRC to tick me off and made me quit the channel.

- She has claimed crazy things in channel to undermine me, such as that
I wanted to marry a US citizen to get a H-1B visa.

- She claimed in a nonsense `apology email' that GIMP project and #gimp
are `homo-erotic love fests' due to something that a GIMP developer told
her (I am not going to disclose that email here for it'd hurt that
person). This was irritating to read as GIMP is not an erotic love fest,
at least not to its contributors. She also claimed that this GIMP
developer told her that we were all trying to get sexually involved with
her. All this this shows her lack of respect towards her co-contributors.

- I had tried to talk sense into her, tried to explain that nobody is
out to get her or ill treat her in any way. We're just trying to run a
project. But nothing works and she just replies with nonsense. Reasoning
with her has no effect.

- She does not speak rationally. In a lot of cases, it's simply nonsense
which nobody can understand or a mockery of her co-developers.

- If I'm not mistaken, bolsh (Dave Neary) left the GIMP project due to
inaction on Carol's behaviour.

- Even today she claimed something silly, that I had sent a person this
morning into the channel to ask her about my authoring a plug-in, when I
had had absolutely no communication with her in the recent past
whatsoever. I have her on ignore nowadays, but her message got through
because I was IRC'ing from a new place.

If there are anyone who know her personally and are nearby, please get
her medical attention.


Kind regards,

Mukund





signature.asc
Description: OpenPGP digital signature
___
Gimp-developer mailing list
Gimp-developer@lists.XCF.Berkeley.EDU
https://lists.XCF.Berkeley.EDU/mailman/listinfo/gimp-developer

Re: [Gimp-developer] about carol

[Martin Nordholts]

> We will have to do something about this situation. Or even more
> developers, including myself, will leave the project.

My stance on the issue:

People have different strengths and I think that sometimes it is
necessary to overlook negative attributes of a person if the person does
valuable contributions.

I'm not really sure in what way carol contributes though, so letting her
have traits of an "official" GIMP:er (like IRC op status) does indeed
not really make sense.

However, if a person does *negative* contributions, like confuse
newcomers and add noise to mailing lists and bug trackers, one has to
consider more serious actions, like first asking the person to leave
(already done in this case), and if he/she doesn't, ban him/her.

I absolutely hate the idea of banning people, but if I have to choose
between keeping carol and one of the most contributing people to the
GIMP, the choice is obvious...

Carol, I want to stress that I have nothing personal against you, I
think you have an interesting personality (maybe it's because I haven't
been around so long yet :d), but in situations like this; I have no
choice, sorry.

- Martin Nordholts
___
Gimp-developer mailing list
Gimp-developer@lists.XCF.Berkeley.EDU
https://lists.XCF.Berkeley.EDU/mailman/listinfo/gimp-developer

Re: [Gimp-developer] about carol

[Simon Budig]

Sven Neumann ([EMAIL PROTECTED]) wrote:
> I don't know if everyone of the GIMP development team is as annoyed of
> Carol as I am, but I know that there are quite a few people who are.

I for sure am annoyed as well. I absolutely hate the idea of driving
someone out of the project and still worry about doing it, but I am out
of alternatives.

Bye,
Simon
-- 
  [EMAIL PROTECTED]  http://simon.budig.de/
___
Gimp-developer mailing list
Gimp-developer@lists.XCF.Berkeley.EDU
https://lists.XCF.Berkeley.EDU/mailman/listinfo/gimp-developer

Re: [Gimp-developer] about carol

[Michael Schumacher]

Von: Sven Neumann <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>

> Whoever controls the bots on the #gimp channel, can you please remove
> the rule that gives carol a channel operator status? It's evil enough
> that she's around harassing newbies. With this status it looks as if she
> was somehow official.

Other networks have policies that encourage people to not have operator status 
until needed. Usually, a bot is the only one to have op status. 

IMO this is useful - it does reduce the "us vs. them" partitioning by at least 
one magnitude. Also, any action that does become necessary can be performed 
more stealthily (per hit-and-run, maybe even through the bot).

It does not solve the problem of who should have ops, but it could be a move 
into the right direction (that anyone who has ops should have a good reason for 
it).


My 2c,
Michael
-- 
Pt! Schon vom neuen GMX MultiMessenger gehört?
Der kanns mit allen: http://www.gmx.net/de/go/multimessenger
___
Gimp-developer mailing list
Gimp-developer@lists.XCF.Berkeley.EDU
https://lists.XCF.Berkeley.EDU/mailman/listinfo/gimp-developer