Naturally you tell us about this site AFTER we're finished shopping for
the H-Cost gift exchange.
A friend & I were recently discussing who is sexier, Ben Franklin or Elvis...
-Carol
> I make no claims about the costuming, but the concept is cute:
>
> http://www.mcphee.com/categories/acti
> Are we not going to have the traditional discussion of what
> costume-related gifts everyone got?
Certainly - you start! My H-cost Secret Santa has not arrived yet,
and I spent a cash gift on tea and tea toys. So nothing
costume-related for me to talk about.
-Carol
Oh, that picture! I saw it earlier online. When Julie first
described it, it sounded like the thing was sheer! But I see what
you mean about seeing the outline of her breast.
It definitely looks like it's made of fabric only with no boning.
Yes, Hollywood costumers know better - the
> I think of the melons on a platter in the 18th Century, not Elizabethan,
> as the corsets are shaped differently. The Renn and Elizabethan are
> more tubular in shape to the 18thC cone shape that gives you a higher
> bustline. That and the 18thC women showed them off a bit more than
> earlier w
> How do you knit two stockings at the same time?
One inside the other, with two sets of stitches (every other stitch
from the other sock) on your needles and two yarn sources. With my
luck I would mess up and knit them together at some point. :-) But I
have heard of this as a "normal" way
Kelly said,
> An example can be seen on website at www.backwardglances.net under
> Civil War items.
> (See Carolann - your class has stuck with me!!! And I have accumulated a
> great deal of supporting documentation that this type of stockings is by
> far the most common for our time period)
Hi Kathleen,
My area of study is 18th century hosiery, and I was doing reenactment
of that era for about 18 years. Knitting needles are an even
simpler tool, and can deal with different sizes of items. As a
cottage industry, that's all a knitter would need. Some homes did
have a knitting
Kitty said,
> Seamed nylons were available even into the sixties.
They're still available now!
http://vickisnylons.com/
Vicki's has some underthings that may be useful for those doing
mid-20th century.
I remember wearing them sometimes in the 80s, and also there was a
"seam" craz
Hi Saragrace,
The frame was invented by Reverend Lee in the late 16thC and
presented to Queen Elizabeth I for a patent. The story goes that she
refused, based on the fear it would put hand knitters out of
business. She did suggest that he should refine it to make fine-knit
silks.
Lee
About 10 or 15 yeas ago, my mother was into doll-making and I was
fascinated by the molds out there. There are "antique" styles to
make the parian dolls, mostly late 19th century and forward from
there. I was hoping she would find a mold for a mid-century doll
that American Civil War reenac
> Someone suggested Hershey's Kisses -
An Engish friend of mine is a big fan of Hershey's chocolate and
enjoyed a trip to Hershey Park. What they don't have are York
peppermint patties. Not even in York, sadly enough. They have the
After 8 Mints, but not so much the thick patties. I don't
Somewhere there's got to be a FAQ...
On 18cWoman (a Yahoo group) we've discussed boning materials a number
of times. "Plastic" covers a wide range of things, from the prom
gown featherboning to various weights of the German plastic which is
supposed to most closely resemble whalebone in
> That sounds like a good idea, I wish we had folks like that in the
> States. Just make sure that whoever is helping you to fit the suit
> understands the fitting/style differences between modern and
> 18th century suits. You don't want them 'fixing' the fit!
We do have people like that! Ma
> i was thinking about the thin, narrow boning i used from Wissner for my
> red taffeta stays. This is only 4 mm. wide. Would that be something you
> could use for a crinoline cage? You would have to make many hoops
> for this, but it surely would give it flexibility.
I think Wissner does ma
> Maybe I've missed the point here, but if the covered steel is what
> was used, on some crinolines, originally, is there any reason to look
> for anything else?
It may be a matter of availability, depending on where someone lives,
import taxes, etc. Also when the question was asked original
> I'm in the Philadelphia area (just outside the city limits).
Wow, you are right in the thick of a lot of resources! Beth Rump, I
think she's with the Chadds Ford museum, sponsored a workshop. Deb
Peterson of Past Masters has run stays workshops. Last year there
was a "ladies only" event
> Actually, there is another technique, rolled pleats. And they are
> easy to sew into a waistband. My tailor, Stephen Bergdahl, used them
> for my latest Elizabethan gown (I still have not learned how to do
> them since I have not needed a new gown, yet). He said it was very
> easy. And it doe
Diana said,
> For a split skirt, I would decorate the underskirt or make it a different
> color. I was thinking of making a quilted underskirt but it may just be a
> petticoat that I can use later with a pet-en-l'air jacket or something
> like that.
It depends on how close to actual 18th ce
> But, if a gown was polonaised, weren't they usually polonaised at/from
> the back, not pulling the gown back from the centre front, as this one is?
> That is probably the thing which is most wrong about this gown, and
> made me think that an attempt had been made to alter it to suit a fashion
> f
Even in the 18th century, the typical drawstring neckline was not
used. Sometimes there is a drawstring that serves to snug up the
neckline a bit , but not to the extent of creating gathers.
Sleeves tend to be gathered into cuffs and sometimes a ruffle added
(sometimes of a finer fabri
> Hey, anyone else willing to have a Red "H" or something so that we can
> identify ourselves at the lecture?
We did this a couple years back at a Costume Society of America
meeting. I brought a red Sharpie marker with me and it was easy for
list members to write a red "H" on their name badg
Hi Bjarne,
I'm trying to remember if I've seen any extant 18thC stays, with
straps, that were not tied. Tying them seems to be the normal thing
to do. Has anyone seen originals with solid straps?
The pattern looks to me like it's two different pieces where the
strap meets the front, n
> Oh yes i had another question. Do you think i should use a linnen binding
> for the tabs and the bustline, straps?
> Thanks again.
I think fully boned stays in such an elegant fabric deserve white kid
leather for a binding.
-Carol
___
h-co
> In a message dated 4/12/2006 9:36:06 A.M. Eastern Standard Time,
> [EMAIL PROTECTED] writes:
>
> Many extant corsets use chamois leather, like the leather you can use
> to wash a car with. There is often a small piece, about an inch deep
> inside and out, (sort of crescent shaped) under the ar
Oooh, check out those metallics!! I didn't see any white, but then
again I didn't look past the first page. It would be worth
contacting the seller to find out how thin the kid leather is.
At one point, the Silly Sisters (18thC clothing makers & merchants)
had stay binding leather ava
> I doubt you would need a leather needle to sew Kid, but you might get one
> just in casefor the machine I mean. And since it stretches a bit, if
> you have a walking foot...one with "feed dogs" to move the fabric on top
> as well as underneath, you might find that helpful. This assuming you'r
Glad I could help! I've seen the Wissner in a thicker weight
(probably for hoops rather than boning) which I can't imagine sewing
through. If the standard weight can be sewn, all the better!
I would suggest a nice cotton or linen tape for binding rather than
silk. Silk has poor abras
> Hi Carol,
> Yes i know it would be best with cotton or linnen, but really for
> reenacting will it really be worned this much?
>
> Bjarne
I haven't reenacted much lately, but three years back I was wearing
the stays I made 15 and 20 years ago. With the older set, I
reinforced the binding u
I'm imagining the reenactor of the future doing light research about
people in the early 21stC wearing corn. They will do extensive
experiments with spinning and weaving the corn silk - we must have
lost that technology!
And then someone will find a corn-husk doll and understand that i
Yes. Does it show? :-D
I especially liked the ceremonial collar. (See, I knew it had some
costume content!)
-Carol
> Did you ever read a graphic novel called "Motel of the Mysteries,"
> featuring the archaelogical discovery of a 20th-century motel?
>
> Fran
> Lavolta Press
> http://www.l
> I have found 5 photos of corsets that show the underarm piece I
> referred to. (Two are of the same corset.) As they are research
> photos, I cannot post them on a photo site, but am happy to send a
> jpeg to anyone who contacts me off list.
>
> One is probably chamois, one may be chamois, one ap
Plunkett and MacLean was an 18thC movie that used some modern music.
On the one hand it was odd, but we expect background music in movies.
What struck me as odd was that the movie was set mid-century (I think
it said 1740 or 1750 on screen), and a fashion-forward character was
dressed
> One of the things good teachers do, in addition to teaching how to
> evaluate evidence logically, is teach about evaluating sources.
> Movies, by their very nature, are not good or reliable sources.
Definitely! My first Costume History teacher, Fran Mayhew at the
University of Delaware, ma
> One of the things good teachers do, in addition to teaching how to
> evaluate evidence logically, is teach about evaluating sources.
> Movies, by their very nature, are not good or reliable sources.
Definitely! My first Costume History teacher, Fran Mayhew at the
University of Delaware, ma
> One of the things good teachers do, in addition to teaching how to
> evaluate evidence logically, is teach about evaluating sources.
> Movies, by their very nature, are not good or reliable sources.
Definitely! My first Costume History teacher, Fran Mayhew at the
University of Delaware, ma
Robin wrote,
> (Sample question: How can I be sure that such-and-so-image of the
> Madonna and Child isn't really Mary Magdalen and her baby by Jesus?)
Sample answer - what difference does it make when you're discussing
the clothing? I'm guessing your lecture is to help sort out the real
clo
> And, we are wandering from the original point, which was "Hollywood
> should make more accurate films."
Yes, I know. That's why I altered the subject line.
> It's reasonable to discuss Hollywood
> films in a classroom. It's not reasonable to complain that they should
> all be made differ
> And working in the other direction, often the clothing is part of our clue
> to identification. This is a large part of that lecture. So part of my
> answer to someone who wants to try to read an image of Mary as being
> Magdalen has to do with how we use the clothing symbols to make the
> distin
> Um, *that* was a throwaway line, and meant to amuse. This is Mary of
> Egypt:
>
> http://www.wga.hu/html/m/memling/3mature1/17rein4.html
> (right side)
>
> See, no implications for costume study there.
Interesting - Mary Magdalene also has the association of being a
penitent wandering in th
Hi Marc,
Generally Rev War events, at least on the East coast, have
participants organized in military units. Is it a battle event? If
so, then it's probably mostly reenactment units. The organization is
important for safety and "walk on" participants are discouraged.
In which case,
>>http://www.my-drewscostumes.dk/l-stomacher.htm
> I suspect very strongly that this is trapunto work, not embroidery as
> such. A Danish friend of mine has a waistcoat embroidered in a very
> similar style, and of the same date. I have photos of it in close-up,
> and of the back, and you can see
It's very cute! I especially like the bustle effect with the horse.
:-) It's difficult to have an adult style look good on a child, and
the trim works well there. With all those seams, is there nothing to
let out so she can wear it a bit longer?
-Carol
> I have made an album on m
I haven't tried that technique, but it's fairly simple. You use a
running stitch along the lines, then run the cording into the spaces
with a tapestry needle from the back. Use fleece for any larger
spots.
Embroidery seems more challenging to me, because of the different
stitches and
There will be some "shrinkage" due to the cording taking up the base
fabrics and turning them 3 dimensional. I discovered that the hard
way when making corded stays. Oops! Fortunately I was able to
insert a panel and get them back to size.
I know it's tedious, but maybe the trick is
> "Something. I don't know yet. The fabric voices aren't speaking to me
> right now."
Fabric must ripen and mellow, of course - we shall sew no fabric
before its time!
I have told fabric store employees that I'm buying it simply because
I like it, on numerous occasions. I might say th
> Dannaman's in Newark had great bolts of Buddhist
> Orange silk for $1 a yard...which overdyed so
> well as well as other great ends.
I remember when Dannemann's was built, which gave the death knell to
Sharrah's. I once got in to the back room to see the wondrous things
at Sharrah's. It's
I'm another non-blogger. I think it would be sad if the information
shared on this list was diminished because a majority decided to do
blogs instead.
I'm on a number of lists where occasionally someone will post a link
to a blog or web page if they have posted something relevant or wan
I'm wary of offering a prefix for chat. I do find that most people
do not consider this a chatty type of list. Even when discussing
something off-topic, many add the "obligatory costume content" at the
end. "It's breast cancer awareness month, OCC I found this great
link on the history of b
Then there is the theory of "If you can't fix it, feature it!" How
about cutting off the pull and replacing it with a bead or ornament,
or make something with seed beads.
I wonder if there is some sort of pull replacement you could make
using just the thread, which would be unobtrusive?
> Although I thought other people also thought maybe there was a bit too
> much off-topic and personal chat, I assume "the one individual" means
> me. If not, who is it?
Hey, it's not just one individual - there are two of us at least!
As far as people unsubbing, there were some implic
> Just a comment on this subject: sometimes, what someone wants in terms
> of cleavage can't be done.
This brings up a question how does the person define "cleavage"? I
think of it as the visible line when the breasts touch, but others
think of it as some swell of breast above the neckline
> All that said, the major frustration at the moment is
> the helmets for the Roman soldiers. Currently they are
> using baseball batting helmets worn backwards with -
> get this - red feather boas glued across the top.
> There is nothing to be done about the helmets - they
> were donated and there
Oh no! The organizers may well have thought the Sheep & Wool fest
would be fun for CC participants to see. Not good for people who
will be at Sheep & Wool full time, though. You might be able to do
some of the evening things at Costume Con, though.
-Carol
> So I went to Darkover Gr
Andy said,
> Putting on my practical hat:
> You can go to Maryland Sheep and Wool Festival any year, if it's in
> your backyard. CC won't be in your backyard again for at least half a
> decade. Go to the event that you'll regret missing for years instead
> of the one that you'll also be able to go
Hi B,
Your notes really got me thinking and remembering both myself and
friends planning "historic" weddings. I finally had the lightbulb go
on for myself 'way back when I was discussing music with Patri
Pugliese. I had favorites ranging from 18thC to 1950s swing, and
wondered if it was pro
B: "We're going to practice the tango at arm's length"
Finace: "Why?"
B: "No reason..."
So did anyone see the Today Show this morning - a couple started
their wedding dance conventionally and then switched to "Baby Got
Back." I hear their video is on YouTube. No interference with the
dress
> I read about the tradition to wear "etwas Altes, etwas Neues, etwas
> Geliehenes, etwas Blaues"
Und ein lucky Deutschmark in her Schue? (Sorry, reaching back to
high school German!)
> Hm, at the costume museum in Bath, I remember seeing pre-1900 bridal
> dresses which weren't white, and
The best bet may be to layer stockings. You usually wear upper-class
clothing, so you would want your outer stocking to look good. Is it
an outdoor event or just cold indoors?
The other thing to look out for with thick stockings is that they may
not fit correctly with your shoes and m
> Bambi TBNL wrote:
>> she DOES say in the instructions to cut a sloper and fit it..
>>
>>
> This has always been a pet peeve of mine (nothing personal, Bambi). If I
> wanted to cut a sloper and fit it, I wouldn't have bought a pattern. Why
> put size markings on a pattern at all, if we're suppose
I didn't see anything about stockings on the site, but some of the
images show people in horizontal striped stockings. Before buying
those, be sure they are appropriate for your time period. I haven't
seen evidence of their use in the 18thC, but they do become
fashionable by the mid-19th ce
I belong to some period-specific lists, and I plan to stay on this
one as well.
Although it covers time periods and places that I'm not doing,
h-Costume keeps me in touch with a larger group of people who are
like-minded. Research, finding fabrics, challenges in fit and
construction ar
> Ah - the third crown is behind the back of the standing guy.
Yes, held by a woman (?) who is also holding a sword.
My guess is that the Magi are the three bearded men with halos. The
one with the blue headwrap seems to be wearing a high-waisted gown
and seems to have breasts. No cl
>> Penny wrote: "These are the only original prints. They only see the light
>> of day, when I show them to my college students. One day I will find a
>> scanner with a large enough bed to scan them."
>
> You should check with the media department of the college. They might have
> a portable scan
Look for Marcellus Laroon's Street Cries prints. There is a book by
Sean Shesgreen that has them, _The Criers and Hawkers of London:
Engravings and Drawings_. They are more 1690 - 1710.
Good clothing, as well as baskets, etc.
-Carol
> I was wondering if anyone here could point
I believe drycleaners use an ozone treatment for smoke smells on
clothing. I don't know if that would work on paper also. It depends
if the expense is worth the item. I agree, truth in advertising and
the end buyer can decide.
-Carol
___
h
> Personally, I though you had a pants fitting issue...
Oh those language funnies! :-)
Back to crochet yes, the simple chains and such were around in the
18th century. Some of the cords on military drums are chained rope.
The reason for the "no crochet" pronouncement is that
A Modesty Piece was a ruffle of gathered lace, or linen fabric with a
lace edge, worn across the top of the stomacher.
I think it may have helped conceal a cleavage line, since you rarely
see artwork with that line.
Some reenactors call a neck-handkerchief (fichu) a modesty piece,
That black gown is cool looking - too bad they mucked it up with the
back lacing! A stomacher front like that means the fit is adjustable
where the stomacher is pinned to the gown, thus no need to have it
lace like that.
Anyway, sorry to be Devil's advocate; I know some people claim a
m
Chris wrote:
> Which makes me curious. What actual medical issues have people encountered
> that really _do_ mean someone can't wear a corset? I'm sure it does happen
> -- and it seems to me that having some idea of what really are the issues
> that cause problems might help dressmakers decide whe
I wonder what were the 16thC attitudes regarding pregnancy? The
Victorians were all for hiding it away, and earlier attitudes are
sometimes filtered through this. Also I've heard plenty of modern
pregnant women complain of looking and feeling fat. But was that the
case for 16thC women?
> The newest computer machines will even measure the button for
> you, and make the hole the correct size. They memorize the size, and sew
> all the holes the same.
Actually I remember something from wy back, maybe in the 70s, a
style where you would place your button in the attachment ra
> In my experience, dyeing over with a similar but deeper color is usually
> very successful. Your new color is likely to entirely cover the old
> color and not conflict with it. Therefore, just pick the shade of red
> you want off the manufacturer's dye chart.
Every once in a while, though,
> Kate Pinner wrote:
>> I realize it's now passe, but I'm doing a production of "Angels in
>> America" that takes place in 1985-86.
>
> That's too early for yellow. In the mid/late 80's the power tie was red,
> either a solid red or the striped one, occasionally a tiny print. I went
> to work in t
> I"m planning a necklace, as an accessory to a 15th c Italian gown, and
> would like to know if, and how, to make one that is a continuous strand.
> The clerk at the bead shop didnt know how. All she wanted to do was sell
> me inappropriate findings. I'm sure there's a way, I just dont know what
> Yesterday I received a copy of Textiles in America 1650-1870 (published
> 2007) Florence Montgomery. Did I miss a h-costume discussion of this
> volume? It is also fantastic! The resource information seems to be so
> complete.
> Kathleen
Textiles in America was originally published a few yea
Stickers are a great idea! But the red pen (a nice thick Sharpie) is
a good backup to mark the H on the spot. :-)
-Carol
> I plan on bringing little stickers that have h-costume on them, dear
> roommate. Sadly, it's too late to order the ribbons that have that, but I
> will try to re
Many of you have done theatrical work, so maybe you can help. A
friend wants an addition to a jacket collar, another piece of fabric
put on top so the collar (not the lapels) is a different color. Easy
enough, right?
Except she wants it removeable, sometimes wearing the jacket with th
> In a message dated 9/29/2006 2:47:08 P.M. Eastern Standard Time,
> [EMAIL PROTECTED] writes:
>
> Except she wants it removable, sometimes wearing the jacket with the
> collar, sometimes without.
>
>
> *
>
> So, does she need a quick change?
>
> I doubt it. So just make a collar
A lining is a nice finish, and also you can use a nice strong linen
or hemp canvas & not have to worry if it's pretty or not.
There are some originals that are stitched through the outer layer,
but for many brocades or silks the outer layer is applied afterward.
It can go either way.
It does have some patterns in the back. This was my forst costume
history book (college textbook) and I've made a couple of things from
those pattern drafts. :-D
-Carol
> Hi, sorry about this question, but i just wanted to know if this is the
> book that has pattern cuts in it?
> Bl
> I think she kept her bra on, because she knew that i would post the
> pictures on my webpage, for modesty. She is going to wear a chemise
> with the dress.
I wasn't sure if it was a bra or a camisole. She should definitely
try them with a camisole or t-shirt and no bra. Then we could see
>Sorry i keep on with this subjekt, i managed to get the fine linnen
>from my old embroidery shop.
>The linnen is very very fine and transparent, and i wondered could i
>use this for trimmings two on gowns, in stead of silk gauge?
The perfect use would be caps, neck-handkerchiefs, engegantes
When discussing plastic corset boning, remember there are several
types of plastic available. There is a "featherboning" that is often
sold with a fabric covering, Wissner that comes in a couple of widths
and thicknesses (and is supposed to be similar to whalebone), and
Rigiline. Rigiline i
It looks to me like a stomacher, with the blue ribbon as an applied
decoration. The ribbon is not functional. The gown closes by
pinning it to the stomacher, and the ruching would hide the pins
nicely.
So to construct it, make a stomacher and noodle around with the
ribbon until it look
Hi Bjarne,
We're talking about an 18thC gown, right?
I remember talking about this on 18cWoman quite a while back. After
much searching, I think someone found one picture of a robe Francaise
that was worn this way. Sounds like it was rare, and understandable
since it changes the line
Hi everyone (especially Robin),
On a Mary Magdalene list, we've been discussing paintings where she
looks pregnant. Of considerable discussion is this one:
http://www.abcgallery.com/W/weyden/weyden37.html
From what I remember of Robin's Gothic Fitted Dress info, the gown
should lace c
> The fit of the supportive gown/GFD in the mid & late 15thC is different
> than in the 14thC & early 15thC. The busk effect of Robin's straight-front
> GFD style is no longer necessary to get the right look; the popular
silhouette
> is one where the bust is very rounded, and sticks out rather th
> Digression: Often I find that people take points I make in my lectures --
> points that are pegged to specific times/places/classes/etc. -- and apply
> them inappropriately to others, and attribute it all to me. There's
> probably nothing I can do about that beyond keep repeating myself in
> plac
> Along those lines, there's a painting theme that might be useful to you in
> this discussion: the Visitation, or Mary meeting Elizabeth while both are
> pregnant.
http://www.paintedchurch.org/salsbvis.htm
Here is one without excess draping, but it's the hands on the
stomachs that is the mo
> I never rely on photos for this kind of thing as it's so easy for a
> picture to get reversed when printed, and modern photo editiors
> don't necessarily realise the importance. it was equally as possible
> for a photographer at the time to have reversed the image by
> mistake (ie too many varia
Does anyone do 1830s? The corset is a fairly natural shape, what
with being allowed to have two individual breasts and not a lot of
waist pinching. And, of course, everything is best with the right
undies.
I'm looking at something like the Lowell Mill Girl dress or the Full
High Gown.
Hi Kimberly,
The problem is that Felicity has a child's body and the clothing
styles are adult styles. I guess most of the buyers out there want
the adult styles because they aren't familiar whth what children
would wear. Felicity's blue gown is made after a blue doll's gown at
Colonial Wil
If you want to do it gathered, then I would not use the wide gold
trim. It weighs down the look of it.
Also do you have sources for the ruching going down the front center
vertically? Often the emphasis is on the width of the bust, so the
horizontal ruching works, but the vertical take
Is there a link to this painting? Probably in a message in my "in"
box at home that I have not gotten to yet?
Please, everyone, when discussing paintings or anything else on the
web, keep the URL in your note. I do appreciate that people minimize
the quoted portion in their reply. Bu
If she is the only one dressed in 18thC, then it's more of a costume
and the indoor/outdoor thing does not matter so much.
I'm not sure if there are different "rules" that go with a compere
front gown. You don't often have buttons as the closure on women's
clothing except for riding ha
> In a message dated 7/22/2007 9:22:02 P.M. Eastern Daylight Time,
> [EMAIL PROTECTED] writes:
>
> I doubt Simplicity would have bothered with a good one for a photo shoot
> ***
AlbertCat wrote,
> I dunno. I think the stylist for the shoot has a goal of making it look
like
> somethi
> True sweet tea is made by adding the sugar when the tea is still warm,
> so that it dissolves completely.
I've made it that way - it makes sense. To me, the funniest thing
is that people in different areas will claim theirs is "the best"
iced tea. My mom is a good one for that - rather t
>> From: Sharon Collier <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
>>
>> Oops! I don't know. I thought I made it up. (Dang, all the good ideas
>> are already taken) I don't know if it's copyright infringement if it's the
>> title of a fashion show.
So many books are called _A History of Costume_ that we refer to t
> Nothing is stoping ANYONE on this list from taking the
> trouble to contact the Metropolitan Museum and letting
> them know that there might be derrivative work going
> on, since ALL of us now know about the potential
> violation...
I tend to approach the potential violater first if someo
You said it was a ball, right? and you're going to style your long
hair into something big? In that case, my suggestion is to add a
couple of ostrich plumes. Pearls, silk flowers and the like could be
used, too. There is one charicature of a lady with a ship in full
sail worked into her d
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