Re: TPC5

2001-01-21 Thread Greg McCarroll

* Nathan Torkington ([EMAIL PROTECTED]) wrote:
 
 Timing in London is hard, because there aren't very many hotels
 capable of supporting such an event.  It's quite amazing to us, in
 fact, how difficult it has been to find a place to hold it in London.
 

Really? Why does this not surprise about 10~20 people on this list? ;-)

-- 
Greg McCarroll  http://www.mccarroll.uklinux.net



Re: TPC5

2001-01-21 Thread Greg McCarroll

* Redvers Davies ([EMAIL PROTECTED]) wrote:
  Timing in London is hard, because there aren't very many hotels
  capable of supporting such an event.  It's quite amazing to us, in
  fact, how difficult it has been to find a place to hold it in London.
 
 One of the hotels in London I have had dealings with has conference facilities
 and over 2000 rooms.  I could look up their details should you wish.

as long as its not that god awful place above ebookers, near russel square 
- the name escapes me, but i could well believe it has somewhere approaching
2000 (shit) rooms in both of the wings  

-- 
Greg McCarroll  http://www.mccarroll.uklinux.net



Re: TPC5

2001-01-21 Thread Greg McCarroll

* Andrew Bowman ([EMAIL PROTECTED]) wrote:
 From: "Paul Makepeace" [EMAIL PROTECTED]
  Where you'll be consulting for a munitions firm? :-)
 
 Nah, I don't know enough about encryption ;-)
 
 But then again, ignorance doesn't seem to be an obstacle to most lobbyists
 or salesmen! Reminds me of ye olde joke:
 
 Q. What's the difference between a used car salesman and a software
 salesman?
 
 A. A used car salesman knows he's lying!
A2. A used car salesman probably knows how to drive a car.

-- 
Greg McCarroll  http://www.mccarroll.uklinux.net



Re: TPC5

2001-01-21 Thread Aaron Trevena

On Sat, 20 Jan 2001, Nathan Torkington wrote:
 (update on the OScon in Europe thing--London in August seems to be
 a bad idea, so we're looking elsewhere and elsewhen ...)

In case anybody is interested the Devon  Cornwall LUG will be helping
organise a S/West UK OSS Conference for local businesses and
academia. Anybody interested should contact myself and cc [EMAIL PROTECTED]
or subscribe to [EMAIL PROTECTED] to join the discussion.

We are also taking part in the linuxday nationwide installfest and if
anybody is in the area they are more than welcome to come and join in
(same contact details as above)

rgds,

A.

-- 
A HREF = "http://termisoc.org/~betty" Betty @ termisoc.org /A
"As a youngster Fred fought sea battles on the village pond using a 
complex system of signals he devised that was later adopted by the Royal 
Navy. " (this email has nothing to do with any organisation except me)






Re: TPC5

2001-01-21 Thread David Cantrell

On Sat, Jan 20, 2001 at 09:22:07PM -0500, David H. Adler wrote:

 FWIW, I know my mother has booked some largish meetings outside of
 London.  Of course, I don't remember offhand how large, or, for that
 matter, what kind of numbers you're looking at.

Good point.  Sometimes it's hard to remember that there is life outside
the M25.  Errm ... if you *really* want to have it in the UK, consider
manchester and birmingham.  Both have international airports, large hotels
and conference centres.  I expect Edinburgh does too although I'm not sure
if there are direct flights to .us - but that's OK, there's no direct
flights from .eu to Monterey :-)

-- 
David Cantrell | [EMAIL PROTECTED] | http://www.cantrell.org.uk/david/

   Any technology distinguishable from magic is insufficiently advanced



Re: TPC5

2001-01-21 Thread Greg McCarroll

* Greg Cope ([EMAIL PROTECTED]) wrote:
 Andrew Bowman wrote:
  
  From: "Nathan Torkington" [EMAIL PROTECTED]
   Timing in London is hard, because there aren't very many hotels
   capable of supporting such an event.  It's quite amazing to us, in
   fact, how difficult it has been to find a place to hold it in London.
  
  What sort of numbers are we talking about then?
  
  If you're prepared to consider locations a little out of central London
  there are lots of large hotels around Heathrow that have sizeable conference
  type facilities (also handy for the airport!).
 
 What about Brighton ;-)
 

potential london clients will be put off dealing with a company not in london

i was thinking about consultancies, and there are really two types and
two types of person who want to be create each type. and those two types
can be summarised as the two Steves, the question is what are people trying
to do - create a Jobs or a Wozniak consultancy?

-- 
Greg McCarroll  http://www.mccarroll.uklinux.net



Re: TPC5

2001-01-21 Thread Dave Hodgkinson

Greg Cope [EMAIL PROTECTED] writes:

 The Beach.

For some values of beach not including sand.

-- 
Dave Hodgkinson, http://www.hodgkinson.org
Editor-in-chief, The Highway Star   http://www.deep-purple.com
  Apache, mod_perl, MySQL, Sybase hired gun for, well, hire
  -



Re: TPC5

2001-01-21 Thread Greg McCarroll

* David Cantrell ([EMAIL PROTECTED]) wrote:
 On Sat, Jan 20, 2001 at 09:22:07PM -0500, David H. Adler wrote:
 
  FWIW, I know my mother has booked some largish meetings outside of
  London.  Of course, I don't remember offhand how large, or, for that
  matter, what kind of numbers you're looking at.
 
 Good point.  Sometimes it's hard to remember that there is life outside
 the M25.  Errm ... if you *really* want to have it in the UK, consider
 manchester and birmingham.  Both have international airports, large hotels
 and conference centres.  I expect Edinburgh does too although I'm not sure
 if there are direct flights to .us - but that's OK, there's no direct
 flights from .eu to Monterey :-)

or better still consider Dublin or Edinburgh 

-- 
Greg McCarroll  http://www.mccarroll.uklinux.net



Perl/MySQL based forums

2001-01-21 Thread Dave Hodgkinson


I know some people here had some experience with wwwthreads, but are
there any alternatives?

No, I'm not going to code a forum package by hand. 

-- 
Dave Hodgkinson, http://www.hodgkinson.org
Editor-in-chief, The Highway Star   http://www.deep-purple.com
  Apache, mod_perl, MySQL, Sybase hired gun for, well, hire
  -



Re: Perl/MySQL based forums

2001-01-21 Thread Greg McCarroll

* Dave Hodgkinson ([EMAIL PROTECTED]) wrote:
 
 No, I'm not going to code a forum package by hand. 
 

go on dave, it cant be that hard 

-- 
Greg McCarroll  http://www.mccarroll.uklinux.net



Re: Perl/MySQL based forums

2001-01-21 Thread Aaron Trevena

On 21 Jan 2001, Dave Hodgkinson wrote:
 
 I know some people here had some experience with wwwthreads, but are
 there any alternatives?
 
 No, I'm not going to code a forum package by hand. 
 
With a little work wmforum is quite nice (easy enough to understand and
therefore make more modular and port to templatetoolkit) also its GPL so
you can fork it into something decent and release/use how you like. If you
have used forum software before its pretty easy to bang a decent ofrum out
of it.

slashcode and kuro5hins code are fairly heavy and un-necessary (also
wmforu works fine with mod_perl).

http://www.mawic.de/mwforum/


A.

-- 
A HREF = "http://termisoc.org/~betty" Betty @ termisoc.org /A
"As a youngster Fred fought sea battles on the village pond using a 
complex system of signals he devised that was later adopted by the Royal 
Navy. " (this email has nothing to do with any organisation except me)






Re: Perl/MySQL based forums

2001-01-21 Thread Dave Hodgkinson

Greg McCarroll [EMAIL PROTECTED] writes:

 * Dave Hodgkinson ([EMAIL PROTECTED]) wrote:
  
  No, I'm not going to code a forum package by hand. 
  
 
 go on dave, it cant be that hard 

I'm sure there's a TT macro that does it all.

-- 
Dave Hodgkinson, http://www.hodgkinson.org
Editor-in-chief, The Highway Star   http://www.deep-purple.com
  Apache, mod_perl, MySQL, Sybase hired gun for, well, hire
  -



RE: TPC5

2001-01-21 Thread Jonathan Peterson

  If you're prepared to consider locations a little out of
 central London
  there are lots of large hotels around Heathrow that have
 sizeable conference
  type facilities (also handy for the airport!).

 FWIW, I know my mother has booked some largish meetings outside of
 London.  Of course, I don't remember offhand how large, or, for that
 matter, what kind of numbers you're looking at.

Go to Brighton. It's nicer than London, on the sea, easy to get to from
Gatwick, and has more pubs per head of population than any other town in
Britain (I think, or maybe it was more pubs per square mile). It has
conference facilities for all sizes (although I've no idea how booked up
they get). And it's 55 minutes from London by train.




Re: Perl/MySQL based forums

2001-01-21 Thread Michael Stevens

On Sun, Jan 21, 2001 at 01:33:09PM +, Greg McCarroll wrote:
 * Dave Hodgkinson ([EMAIL PROTECTED]) wrote:
  No, I'm not going to code a forum package by hand. 
 go on dave, it cant be that hard 

Having done it a few times, it *isn't* that hard...

Michael



Re: TPC5

2001-01-21 Thread Jonathan Stowe

On Sat, 20 Jan 2001, Andrew Bowman wrote:
 
 There are also a number of large and large-ish venues in London offering a
 variety of halls and facilities, e.g. Earls Court, Olympia, Wembley
 Conference Centre[1], The Business Design Centre in Islington, The Royal
 Horticultural Halls, Queen Elizabeth Conference Hall, Church House (or
 whatever it's called) etc. etc.
 

ISPcon europe was in the Novotel at Hammersmith in 1999 ISTR

/J\
-- 
Jonathan Stowe   |   
http://www.gellyfish.com |   I'm with Grep on this one 
http://www.tackleway.co.uk   |





RE: TPC5

2001-01-21 Thread Jonathan Stowe

On Sun, 21 Jan 2001, Jonathan Peterson wrote:

   If you're prepared to consider locations a little out of
  central London
   there are lots of large hotels around Heathrow that have
  sizeable conference
   type facilities (also handy for the airport!).
 
  FWIW, I know my mother has booked some largish meetings outside of
  London.  Of course, I don't remember offhand how large, or, for that
  matter, what kind of numbers you're looking at.
 
 Go to Brighton. It's nicer than London, on the sea, easy to get to from
 Gatwick, and has more pubs per head of population than any other town in
 Britain (I think, or maybe it was more pubs per square mile). It has
 conference facilities for all sizes (although I've no idea how booked up
 they get). And it's 55 minutes from London by train.
 

And its handy for me.

/J\
-- 
Jonathan Stowe   |   
http://www.gellyfish.com |   I'm with Grep on this one 
http://www.tackleway.co.uk   |





Re: TPC5

2001-01-21 Thread Jonathan Stowe

On Sat, 20 Jan 2001, David H. Adler wrote:

 On Sat, Jan 20, 2001 at 11:28:06PM -, Andrew Bowman wrote:
  From: "Nathan Torkington" [EMAIL PROTECTED]
   Timing in London is hard, because there aren't very many hotels
   capable of supporting such an event.  It's quite amazing to us, in
   fact, how difficult it has been to find a place to hold it in London.
  
  What sort of numbers are we talking about then?
  
  If you're prepared to consider locations a little out of central London
  there are lots of large hotels around Heathrow that have sizeable conference
  type facilities (also handy for the airport!).
 
 FWIW, I know my mother has booked some largish meetings outside of
 London.  Of course, I don't remember offhand how large, or, for that
 matter, what kind of numbers you're looking at.
 

Well there's Blackpool, Brighton, Eastbourne, Bournemouth, Harrogate,
Birmingham ...  (spot the odd one out :)

/J\
-- 
Jonathan Stowe   |   
http://www.gellyfish.com |   I'm with Grep on this one 
http://www.tackleway.co.uk   |





Conultancy discussion (was Re: TPC5)

2001-01-21 Thread Neil Ford

* Greg Cope ([EMAIL PROTECTED]) wrote:
  Andrew Bowman wrote:
  
   From: "Nathan Torkington" [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Timing in London is hard, because there aren't very many hotels
capable of supporting such an event.  It's quite amazing to us, in
fact, how difficult it has been to find a place to hold it in London.
  
   What sort of numbers are we talking about then?
  
   If you're prepared to consider locations a little out of central London
   there are lots of large hotels around Heathrow that have 
sizeable conference
   type facilities (also handy for the airport!).

  What about Brighton ;-)


potential london clients will be put off dealing with a company not in london

Seeing as this was about TPC, interesting subject change :-)

The obvious answer to this is "depends where your customers are". 
Being out side London works for my friend Nik, but then he's 
targetting customers to the south of London and along the South 
Coast. Customers in Central London would definitely prefer a 
consultancy so located.

i was thinking about consultancies, and there are really two types and
two types of person who want to be create each type. and those two types
can be summarised as the two Steves, the question is what are people trying
to do - create a Jobs or a Wozniak consultancy?

Interesting question. I have both men to thank for an awful lot (the 
Apple II got me into computing, the mac is by far my most favourite 
machine) and whilst I would quite like to meet both, Woz is 
definitely the man I identify with most.

Neil.
-- 
Neil C. Ford
[EMAIL PROTECTED]
http://www.binky.ourshack.org



Re: Perl/MySQL based forums

2001-01-21 Thread Dave Hodgkinson

Dave Hodgkinson [EMAIL PROTECTED] writes:

 Michael Stevens [EMAIL PROTECTED] writes:
 
  On Sun, Jan 21, 2001 at 01:33:09PM +, Greg McCarroll wrote:
   * Dave Hodgkinson ([EMAIL PROTECTED]) wrote:
No, I'm not going to code a forum package by hand. 
   go on dave, it cant be that hard 
  
  Having done it a few times, it *isn't* that hard...
 
 I'm playing with mwforum right now. Seems OK.

Aside from all the inline HTML.

ARGH! When will people learn!

-- 
Dave Hodgkinson, http://www.hodgkinson.org
Editor-in-chief, The Highway Star   http://www.deep-purple.com
  Apache, mod_perl, MySQL, Sybase hired gun for, well, hire
  -



Re: Perl/MySQL based forums

2001-01-21 Thread Greg McCarroll

* Dave Hodgkinson ([EMAIL PROTECTED]) wrote:
 Dave Hodgkinson [EMAIL PROTECTED] writes:
 
  Michael Stevens [EMAIL PROTECTED] writes:
  
   On Sun, Jan 21, 2001 at 01:33:09PM +, Greg McCarroll wrote:
* Dave Hodgkinson ([EMAIL PROTECTED]) wrote:
 No, I'm not going to code a forum package by hand. 
go on dave, it cant be that hard 
   
   Having done it a few times, it *isn't* that hard...
  
  I'm playing with mwforum right now. Seems OK.
 
 Aside from all the inline HTML.
 
 ARGH! When will people learn!
 

it got the job done in the first n'th generation? yes? we'll solve
that problem in the n+1'th generation of computing and introduce
another batch of new ones



-- 
Greg McCarroll  http://www.mccarroll.uklinux.net



Re: Perl/MySQL based forums

2001-01-21 Thread Aaron Trevena

On 21 Jan 2001, Dave Hodgkinson wrote:

 Dave Hodgkinson [EMAIL PROTECTED] writes:
 
  Michael Stevens [EMAIL PROTECTED] writes:
  
   On Sun, Jan 21, 2001 at 01:33:09PM +, Greg McCarroll wrote:
* Dave Hodgkinson ([EMAIL PROTECTED]) wrote:
 No, I'm not going to code a forum package by hand. 
go on dave, it cant be that hard 
   
   Having done it a few times, it *isn't* that hard...
  
  I'm playing with mwforum right now. Seems OK.
 
 Aside from all the inline HTML.
 
 ARGH! When will people learn!

I was in the process of converting it to TT when i lost a load of my work
at oven (forgot to follwo symlinks when I tar gzipped home).

A.

-- 
A HREF = "http://termisoc.org/~betty" Betty @ termisoc.org /A
"As a youngster Fred fought sea battles on the village pond using a 
complex system of signals he devised that was later adopted by the Royal 
Navy. " (this email has nothing to do with any organisation except me)






Re: Conultancy discussion (was Re: TPC5)

2001-01-21 Thread Michael Stevens

On Sun, Jan 21, 2001 at 04:50:39PM +, Greg McCarroll wrote:
 * Neil Ford ([EMAIL PROTECTED]) wrote:
  potential london clients will be put off dealing with a company not in london
  Seeing as this was about TPC, interesting subject change :-)
 apologise for that i've rejoined (void) and once again regard all mailing lists
 as one big holistic stream ;-)

Ah, they all come back in the end...

Michael



Re: Perl/MySQL based forums

2001-01-21 Thread Jonathan Stowe

On Sun, 21 Jan 2001, Aaron Trevena wrote:

 On 21 Jan 2001, Dave Hodgkinson wrote:
 
  Dave Hodgkinson [EMAIL PROTECTED] writes:
  
   Michael Stevens [EMAIL PROTECTED] writes:
   
On Sun, Jan 21, 2001 at 01:33:09PM +, Greg McCarroll wrote:
 * Dave Hodgkinson ([EMAIL PROTECTED]) wrote:
  No, I'm not going to code a forum package by hand. 
 go on dave, it cant be that hard 

Having done it a few times, it *isn't* that hard...
   
   I'm playing with mwforum right now. Seems OK.
  
  Aside from all the inline HTML.
  
  ARGH! When will people learn!
 
 I was in the process of converting it to TT when i lost a load of my work
 at oven (forgot to follwo symlinks when I tar gzipped home).
 

I always had that problem until I stuffed everything in CVS :)

/J\
-- 
Jonathan Stowe   |   
http://www.gellyfish.com |   I'm with Grep on this one 
http://www.tackleway.co.uk   |




Re: Perl/MySQL based forums

2001-01-21 Thread Greg McCarroll

* Jonathan Stowe ([EMAIL PROTECTED]) wrote:
 On Sun, 21 Jan 2001, Aaron Trevena wrote:
  On 21 Jan 2001, Dave Hodgkinson wrote:
   Dave Hodgkinson [EMAIL PROTECTED] writes:
Michael Stevens [EMAIL PROTECTED] writes:
 On Sun, Jan 21, 2001 at 01:33:09PM +, Greg McCarroll wrote:
  * Dave Hodgkinson ([EMAIL PROTECTED]) wrote:
   No, I'm not going to code a forum package by hand. 
  go on dave, it cant be that hard 
 Having done it a few times, it *isn't* that hard...
I'm playing with mwforum right now. Seems OK.
   Aside from all the inline HTML.
   ARGH! When will people learn!
  I was in the process of converting it to TT when i lost a load of my work
  at oven (forgot to follwo symlinks when I tar gzipped home).
 I always had that problem until I stuffed everything in CVS :)

it's a sign of how we have not moved away from the current computing
metaphor to something else - boo to filesystems bring on object storage!




-- 
Greg McCarroll  http://www.mccarroll.uklinux.net



Re: Perl/MySQL based forums

2001-01-21 Thread Dave Hodgkinson

Aaron Trevena [EMAIL PROTECTED] writes:

 I was in the process of converting it to TT when i lost a load of my work
 at oven (forgot to follwo symlinks when I tar gzipped home).

Don't you hate it when that happens?

I've managed to hack in the requisite headers and footers (a
containing, constraining table) so I'm in business.

-- 
Dave Hodgkinson, http://www.hodgkinson.org
Editor-in-chief, The Highway Star   http://www.deep-purple.com
  Apache, mod_perl, MySQL, Sybase hired gun for, well, hire
  -



Re: Perl/MySQL based forums

2001-01-21 Thread Aaron Trevena

On 21 Jan 2001, Dave Hodgkinson wrote:

 Aaron Trevena [EMAIL PROTECTED] writes:
 
  I was in the process of converting it to TT when i lost a load of my work
  at oven (forgot to follwo symlinks when I tar gzipped home).
 
 Don't you hate it when that happens?
 
 I've managed to hack in the requisite headers and footers (a
 containing, constraining table) so I'm in business.

Don't spose you could bang it on line once you've done a bit so I don't
have to reapeat both of our work?

A. 

-- 
A HREF = "http://termisoc.org/~betty" Betty @ termisoc.org /A
"As a youngster Fred fought sea battles on the village pond using a 
complex system of signals he devised that was later adopted by the Royal 
Navy. " (this email has nothing to do with any organisation except me)






Re: Perl/MySQL based forums

2001-01-21 Thread Dave Hodgkinson

Aaron Trevena [EMAIL PROTECTED] writes:

 On 21 Jan 2001, Dave Hodgkinson wrote:
 
  Aaron Trevena [EMAIL PROTECTED] writes:
  
   I was in the process of converting it to TT when i lost a load of my work
   at oven (forgot to follwo symlinks when I tar gzipped home).
  
  Don't you hate it when that happens?
  
  I've managed to hack in the requisite headers and footers (a
  containing, constraining table) so I'm in business.
 
 Don't spose you could bang it on line once you've done a bit so I don't
 have to reapeat both of our work?

No, no. I inlined 'em. No templates. 

Dave // Beyond lazy...

-- 
Dave Hodgkinson, http://www.hodgkinson.org
Editor-in-chief, The Highway Star   http://www.deep-purple.com
  Apache, mod_perl, MySQL, Sybase hired gun for, well, hire
  -



Re: Perl/MySQL based forums

2001-01-21 Thread Jonathan Stowe

On Sun, 21 Jan 2001, Greg McCarroll wrote:
 * Jonathan Stowe ([EMAIL PROTECTED]) wrote:
  On Sun, 21 Jan 2001, Aaron Trevena wrote:
   On 21 Jan 2001, Dave Hodgkinson wrote:
Dave Hodgkinson [EMAIL PROTECTED] writes:
 Michael Stevens [EMAIL PROTECTED] writes:
  On Sun, Jan 21, 2001 at 01:33:09PM +, Greg McCarroll wrote:
   * Dave Hodgkinson ([EMAIL PROTECTED]) wrote:
No, I'm not going to code a forum package by hand. 
   go on dave, it cant be that hard 
  Having done it a few times, it *isn't* that hard...
 I'm playing with mwforum right now. Seems OK.
Aside from all the inline HTML.
ARGH! When will people learn!
   I was in the process of converting it to TT when i lost a load of my work
   at oven (forgot to follwo symlinks when I tar gzipped home).
  I always had that problem until I stuffed everything in CVS :)
 it's a sign of how we have not moved away from the current computing
 metaphor to something else - boo to filesystems bring on object storage!

Its a sign that its time for Grep's drug test:)

Actually I do agree with you, but this stuff is still quite difficult to
implement using Open Source tools ... 

[ wondering how long we can keep the beautiful symmetry of the quoting ]

/J\
-- 
Jonathan Stowe   |   
http://www.gellyfish.com |   I'm with Grep on this one 
http://www.tackleway.co.uk   |




Re: Perl/MySQL based forums

2001-01-21 Thread Leon Brocard

Jonathan Stowe sent the following bits through the ether:
 On Sun, 21 Jan 2001, Greg McCarroll wrote:
  * Jonathan Stowe ([EMAIL PROTECTED]) wrote:
   On Sun, 21 Jan 2001, Aaron Trevena wrote:
On 21 Jan 2001, Dave Hodgkinson wrote:
 Dave Hodgkinson [EMAIL PROTECTED] writes:
  Michael Stevens [EMAIL PROTECTED] writes:
   On Sun, Jan 21, 2001 at 01:33:09PM +, Greg McCarroll wrote:
* Dave Hodgkinson ([EMAIL PROTECTED]) wrote:
 No, I'm not going to code a forum package by hand. 
go on dave, it cant be that hard 
   Having done it a few times, it *isn't* that hard...
  I'm playing with mwforum right now. Seems OK.
 Aside from all the inline HTML.
 ARGH! When will people learn!
I was in the process of converting it to TT when i lost a load of my work
at oven (forgot to follwo symlinks when I tar gzipped home).
   I always had that problem until I stuffed everything in CVS :)
  it's a sign of how we have not moved away from the current computing
  metaphor to something else - boo to filesystems bring on object storage!
 [ wondering how long we can keep the beautiful symmetry of the quoting ]

Dunno, but it looks very pretty:
http://astray.com/pretty_quoting.png

Leon
-- 
Leon Brocard.http://www.astray.com/
yapc::Europehttp://yapc.org/Europe/

... Don't thank me for insulting you. It was my pleasure...



Re: Perl/MySQL based forums

2001-01-21 Thread Greg Cope

Dave Hodgkinson wrote:
 
 Michael Stevens [EMAIL PROTECTED] writes:
 
  On Sun, Jan 21, 2001 at 01:33:09PM +, Greg McCarroll wrote:
   * Dave Hodgkinson ([EMAIL PROTECTED]) wrote:
No, I'm not going to code a forum package by hand.
   go on dave, it cant be that hard 
 
  Having done it a few times, it *isn't* that hard...
 
 I'm playing with mwforum right now. Seems OK.

I've a site in production that uses this - works fine.

Greg


 
 --
 Dave Hodgkinson, http://www.hodgkinson.org
 Editor-in-chief, The Highway Star   http://www.deep-purple.com
   Apache, mod_perl, MySQL, Sybase hired gun for, well, hire
   -



Re: TPC5

2001-01-21 Thread Greg Cope

Jonathan Stowe wrote:
 
 On Sun, 21 Jan 2001, Jonathan Peterson wrote:
 
If you're prepared to consider locations a little out of
   central London
there are lots of large hotels around Heathrow that have
   sizeable conference
type facilities (also handy for the airport!).
  
   FWIW, I know my mother has booked some largish meetings outside of
   London.  Of course, I don't remember offhand how large, or, for that
   matter, what kind of numbers you're looking at.
 
  Go to Brighton. It's nicer than London, on the sea, easy to get to from
  Gatwick, and has more pubs per head of population than any other town in
  Britain (I think, or maybe it was more pubs per square mile). It has
  conference facilities for all sizes (although I've no idea how booked up
  they get). And it's 55 minutes from London by train.
 
 
 And its handy for me.
 

And me ;-)

Greg


 /J\
 --
 Jonathan Stowe   |
 http://www.gellyfish.com |   I'm with Grep on this one
 http://www.tackleway.co.uk   |



Re: TPC5

2001-01-21 Thread Greg Cope

Dave Hodgkinson wrote:
 
 Greg Cope [EMAIL PROTECTED] writes:
 
  The Beach.
 
 For some values of beach not including sand.
 

Don't start that argument.

I spend many an hour - recently opcodes clicked whilst on the beach  -
and watching three nutters go for a swim !

Greg


 --
 Dave Hodgkinson, http://www.hodgkinson.org
 Editor-in-chief, The Highway Star   http://www.deep-purple.com
   Apache, mod_perl, MySQL, Sybase hired gun for, well, hire
   -



Re: TPC5

2001-01-21 Thread Greg Cope

Jonathan Peterson wrote:
 
   If you're prepared to consider locations a little out of
  central London
   there are lots of large hotels around Heathrow that have
  sizeable conference
   type facilities (also handy for the airport!).
 
  FWIW, I know my mother has booked some largish meetings outside of
  London.  Of course, I don't remember offhand how large, or, for that
  matter, what kind of numbers you're looking at.
 
 Go to Brighton. It's nicer than London, on the sea, easy to get to from
 Gatwick, and has more pubs per head of population than any other town in
 Britain (I think, or maybe it was more pubs per square mile). It has
 conference facilities for all sizes (although I've no idea how booked up
 they get). And it's 55 minutes from London by train.

47 mins actually - although this time is now theoretical due to the
train problems.

Also brighton has a very / extremely high number of places to eat
(cafe||restaurants).

Only 25 mins from the secound biggest airport in the UK, which is nearer
than London.

Greg



Re: TPC5

2001-01-21 Thread Greg Cope

Greg McCarroll wrote:
 
 * Greg Cope ([EMAIL PROTECTED]) wrote:
  Andrew Bowman wrote:
  
   From: "Nathan Torkington" [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Timing in London is hard, because there aren't very many hotels
capable of supporting such an event.  It's quite amazing to us, in
fact, how difficult it has been to find a place to hold it in London.
  
   What sort of numbers are we talking about then?
  
   If you're prepared to consider locations a little out of central London
   there are lots of large hotels around Heathrow that have sizeable conference
   type facilities (also handy for the airport!).
 
  What about Brighton ;-)
 
 
 potential london clients will be put off dealing with a company not in london
 

Have you heard of Victoria Real - the people behind amonst other things
big browers website ?

I think Location in this day an age is a little irrelivant.  The choice
will be made on quality of service - not where the office is based. 
Although I agree that some people may be a little biased.

The south coast has a very high number of nu media companies - and
apparently Worthing is the most profitable town / area in the UK.

It is often easier to get to some London Locations from Brighton than it
is from London.

 i was thinking about consultancies, and there are really two types and
 two types of person who want to be create each type. and those two types
 can be summarised as the two Steves, the question is what are people trying
 to do - create a Jobs or a Wozniak consultancy?

You've lost me there ?

 
 --
 Greg McCarroll  http://www.mccarroll.uklinux.net



Mail::ListDetector - please test

2001-01-21 Thread Michael Stevens

Hi.

I have an (as yet unreleased) module called Mail::ListDetector,
which takes a Mail::Internet object, and attempts to tell you if the
message involved was posted to a mailing list, and if so, attempts to
get some details about that list.

I need testers - in particular, see if it builds and passes tests for
you, and throw lots of messages at the sample script and see if you
can get it to be inaccurate for any of them. If you can, please send
me the message in question. (if you don't want to give out the content,
just headers should do).

Currently it should know about majordomo, smartlist, ezmlm, and mailman,
although the majordomo and smartlist guessers are a bit experimental.

It's at:

http://www.etla.org/Mail-ListDetector-0.05.tar.gz

Michael



Re: TPC5

2001-01-21 Thread Greg McCarroll

* Greg Cope ([EMAIL PROTECTED]) wrote:
  
  potential london clients will be put off dealing with a company not in london
  

 I think Location in this day an age is a little irrelivant.  The choice
 will be made on quality of service - not where the office is based. 
 

... and all the clients will be logically thinking young people. with
no biases and no predefined stereotypes. they will make sure they pay
there bills on time and they will not be trying to fuck you from day 1.

unfortunatly any startup company that is not backed with serious capital
needs to accept almost every job it can get, and if it cant get most
of them due to some middleaged business man's discrimination against
it - due to the fact that the office is in brighton, or they don't
have an office or they don't wear suits or whatever, it won't survive.

i agree with you logically but i see a big difference in reality.

 The south coast has a very high number of nu media companies - and
 apparently Worthing is the most profitable town / area in the UK.

however, the major (only?) resource that this theoretical company has is
people and most of them are london based anyway so anywhere outside the
M25 is probably not going to leverage the main resource and the company
would be dead from day #1

however on a trivia note, i'd be willing to bet that _the_ city makes the most 
profit per area in the UK, but thats a trivia point


 It is often easier to get to some London Locations from Brighton than it
 is from London.
 
  i was thinking about consultancies, and there are really two types and
  two types of person who want to be create each type. and those two types
  can be summarised as the two Steves, the question is what are people trying
  to do - create a Jobs or a Wozniak consultancy?
 
 You've lost me there ?
 

ok, ignoring the other figures and concetrating on the two steves ...

Woz was an A class engineer and C/D class business guy 
Jobs was a B class engineer but also a B class business guy
 and marketeer (bullshitter)

if they seperatly formed companys Woz would create the most technically
brilliant corporatopia (i just made that up ;-) ), Jobs would make the
most money - i'm certainly arguing in this ``debate'' (although that
implies too much conflict) that job's way is best others may feel woz's
way is best

Greg   


-- 
Greg McCarroll  http://www.mccarroll.uklinux.net



Re: Holy War

2001-01-21 Thread Robin Szemeti

On Fri, 19 Jan 2001, you wrote:

  Mandrake 7.2.
 
 All I'll say about mandrake is that we have a mandrake box at work and
 when you run printtool the cdrom ejects.

I've been running Mandrake for a while (2 years?) now .. and it seems
fine, its Dedrat  really with the KDE desktop and a things added by the
French .. but it generally installs straight out of the tin, has a choice
of security settings for the paranoid etc. 

I never did find out what caused the pesky security checks to run at
midnight when I was always trying to use the damm thing ... so got rid of
the script and run tripwire from crontab once a day at a more useful
hour.

'part from that its just fine.   

I run Dedrat 7.0 on my server at mailbox and having turned off all the
dangeroos stuff and set up the IPCHAINS and put SSH on it its been
totally reliable and unhacked. 

-- 
Robin Szemeti

The box said "requires windows 95 or better"
So I installed Linux!



Re: Perl/MySQL based forums

2001-01-21 Thread Robin Szemeti

On Sun, 21 Jan 2001, you wrote:

 Aside from all the inline HTML.
 
 ARGH! When will people learn!

speaking of which ;)

so .. in an idle moment I'm supposed to be re jazzin' a mates website ..
uh huh, ... no inline HTML for me I says .. so instead of my normal method
[1] I think so .. everyone keeps drooling on about Template::Toolkit  best
use that. .. now heres the thing .. its really basic and I feel stoopid
asking .. yes I have read the docs but obvioulsy not the right bits...
how do you get the process() method to return the output to you instead of
printing the damn thing.??? 

I'll prolly have worked it out ... but hey feel free to jump right in

[1] me normal way ... make up a package containing all the ickle bits of
templates as subs taking a hashref  and then just return the contents.
never any code in the templates,  err like this ...

# calling routine
my (%data);
$data{text}='Hello World';
my ($result)=Template::test(\%data);

print $result;
exit 0;


package Template;

sub test{

my ($data)=shift;

return END;
table
  tr
td$data-{text}/td
  /tr
/table
END
}

-- 
Robin Szemeti

The box said "requires windows 95 or better"
So I installed Linux!



Re: distributed.net

2001-01-21 Thread Greg McCarroll

* David H. Adler ([EMAIL PROTECTED]) wrote:
 On Sun, Jan 21, 2001 at 11:36:25AM +, Greg McCarroll wrote:
  
  Dave's new SUPER CHARGED TURBO NUTTER 2001 pc reminded me of the good
  old days of distributed.net. Is anyone still participating in this?
  I've just threw some keys at PMU but it appears they are dead in
  the water along with the rest of us. Is it time we joined up with
  some team like PMU and had a single Perl team?
 
 I've still got the powerbook churning away here.  oddly, though, it's
 been having issues connecting to the server, so I don't get to update
 that frequently. :-/
 
 Go PMU!!!
 

if you could email me the password to PMU i'd be grateful, also what
is the focus of PMU - OGR or RC5?



-- 
Greg McCarroll  http://www.mccarroll.uklinux.net



Re: Perl/MySQL based forums

2001-01-21 Thread Leon Brocard

Robin Szemeti sent the following bits through the ether:

 how do you get the process() method to return the output to you instead of
 printing the damn thing.??? 

Obviously didn't read the bit about the process method eh?

   # text reference
   $tt-process(\$text)
   || die $tt-error(), "\n";
...
   By default, the processed template output is printed to
   STDOUT.  The process() method then returns 1 to indicate
   success.  A third parameter may be passed to the process()
   method to specify a different output location.  This value
   may be one of: a plain string indicating a filename which
   will be opened (relative to OUTPUT_PATH, if defined) and
   the output written to; a file GLOB opened ready for
   output; a reference to a scalar (e.g. a text string) to
   which output/error is appended; a reference to a
   subroutine which is called, passing the output as a
   parameter; or any object reference which implements a
   'print' method (e.g. IO::Handle, Apache::Request, etc.)
   which will be called, passing the generated output as a
   parameter.

You'd be wanting the string ref as above, matie.

Leon
-- 
Leon Brocard.http://www.astray.com/
yapc::Europehttp://yapc.org/Europe/

... Don't thank me for insulting you. It was my pleasure...



Re: Perl/MySQL based forums

2001-01-21 Thread Robin Szemeti

On Sun, 21 Jan 2001, you wrote:

  how do you get the process() method to return the output to you instead of
  printing the damn thing.??? 
 
 Obviously didn't read the bit about the process method eh?

 You'd be wanting the string ref as above, matie.

ooh ta .. now where was that hiding ..???...  I hate it when that happens
:)

ohh found it .. bottom of Template.3

Thanks.


so while I'm on .. what is wisdom on this then .. my method was going to
be  write all the data extraction from the db in plain Perl, whenever I
need to do anyting html make sure thats in a template and call that from
the main proggy, so in theory all the structure is defined by the
templates .. however obvioulsy the structure will also depend on the perl
code so is it better to write subs and then call them from templates so
templates define the structure too, I REALLY want to avoid the putting
code into the templates and using the various [% FOREACH ...%] cos thats
just as bad as putting html inline innit?

-- 
Robin Szemeti

The box said "requires windows 95 or better"
So I installed Linux!



Re: ArsDigita working practices (was: Big Macs v The Naked Chef --)

2001-01-21 Thread Kieran Barry

On Sat, 20 Jan 2001, Chris Benson wrote:
 On Sat, Jan 20, 2001 at 09:04:24PM +, Robin Houston wrote:
  On Sat, Jan 20, 2001 at 08:01:51PM +, Chris Benson wrote:
  
   Another link is 
   
   http://www.arsdigita.com/careers/
   
   They seem to be a very good model for a consultancy business 
  
  Personally I wouldn't like to work anywhere that thinks like this:
http://www.arsdigita.com/asj/managing-software-engineers/
  
  Even if that article is slightly tongue-in-cheek, it disturbs me :-)
 
I get the feeling that some of Greenspun's writings are written as
advertising. One theme running through his writings seems to me is to
explain his architecture to the audience. He keeps things really simple,
so that even a manager should be able to understand him.

But it remains advertising. He goes just slightly over the top about how
great ArsDigita is.

 I suspect it is *not* tongue-in-cheek -- he wants only the best and does
 expect 70-80 hour weeks ... during a project.  In some discussion I saw
 about this he justified it two ways that I remember: (1) not everyone
 worked on projects all the time and (2) if people did work full time on
 projects they'd be getting about ~us$500k / year.  (Having spent the
 entire 80's doing 70-80 hour weeks for less than gbp10k I'd liked to
 have had the chance!).
 
Hmm. My experience says that on many projects, there are people you
don't want to work overtime. This is because they created many of the
reasons why overtime is necessary.

Greenspun believes that everyone should be potentially great (or great
already.) He suggests that when a project needs work, people work
harder. And an interesting point is that he is in a small town
(Cambridge, Masse-however you spell the damn thing), so that commuting
is much quicker. On a typical day, I leave for work at 7.25, get to work
at about 9.10, leave at 6.30 and arrive home around 8.15. (This is since
Hatfield. Total work time 8.30 after lunch. If my commute was 10 minutes
each way, I'd have 3hours and 10 minutes of extra work time a day. (Not
that I'd necessarily want to work it...)

Look at the consultancy thread, where despite the project being composed
of a group of friends, a lot of people wanted to work from home. 

 There are also good bits there which have been mentioned in other threads:
 quote
  The average home cannot accomodate a pinball machine. An office  
  can. The average home can have video games, which are very popular
  with young programmers, but not people with whom to play. The
  average home cannot have a grand piano but almost any office can.
 
For the time being, the techy is "talent". We should be treated well,
until they find a way to clone us. At the very least, if we aren't being
treated well, it implies that the project isn't valued. 


 I don't think I'd like to work for them though ... I'm getting old'n'soft
 :-( and I find the attitude that comes over in Phil Greenspun's writing
 rather (very!) arrogant.  And of course they use shudder TCL.
 
I think that Greenspun needs to be outspoken to pay for the techies
toys.

TCL is used because its multithreaded. Perl 6 is going to be
multithreaded. It should be able to wipe TCL out.

 But the organisational structure and strategy/vision *is* interesting.

Yup. There isn't enough talent around, so people get promoted beyond
their competence. If you train your people they'll only leave.

The only way out of that cycle is to train in-house,
and treat people so well that they stay.

Discuss.

Kieran




Re: ArsDigita working practices (was: Big Macs v The Naked Chef -- )

2001-01-21 Thread Roger Burton West

On Sun, Jan 21, 2001 at 08:37:02PM +, Kieran Barry wrote:

Yup. There isn't enough talent around, so people get promoted beyond
their competence. If you train your people they'll only leave.

The only way out of that cycle is to train in-house,
and treat people so well that they stay.

Which implies that hassling them if they don't work 70-hour weeks is
counterproductive. When I was looking for my current job, it took me
a week from starting to search to getting two decent offers; so I know
there's demand for people who can do what I do. In turn, my employers
know it too: which means our relationship is a lot more civilised than
it's been in other places where I worked.

I don't think training is related to leaving; people leave anyway,
all the time. Giving someone training might increase his market value,
but if your company isn't prepared to pay for that, why train him in
the first place?

Roger



Re: ArsDigita working practices (was: Big Macs v The Naked Chef -- )

2001-01-21 Thread Paul Makepeace

On Sun, Jan 21, 2001 at 08:37:02PM +, Kieran Barry wrote:
 Yup. There isn't enough talent around, so people get promoted beyond
 their competence. If you train your people they'll only leave.
 
 The only way out of that cycle is to train in-house,
 and treat people so well that they stay.

Solution: teach them uber-esoterica like TCL ("The Cult
Language") so they become social pariahs thus dependent on
support from The Company, and further can't get a job anywhere
else owing to their debilitating intellectual crippling and
emotional  psychological dependencies :-)


Keeping employees 101: Show respect, recognise them, care for
them and provide opportunity for growth.  It's all about the
love; that's all anyone really wants.

Paul



Re: ArsDigita working practices (was: Big Macs v The Naked Chef -- )

2001-01-21 Thread Michael Stevens

On Sun, Jan 21, 2001 at 08:37:02PM +, Kieran Barry wrote:
 TCL is used because its multithreaded. Perl 6 is going to be
 multithreaded. It should be able to wipe TCL out.

I've never actually understood the appeal of threads. Why do
people like them?

Michael



Re: Perl/MySQL based forums

2001-01-21 Thread Robin Szemeti

On Sun, 21 Jan 2001, I wrote:

 so while I'm on .. what is wisdom on this then .. my method was going to

err hold your answers .. I'm just reading the docs on (the recently
discovered) templatetoolkit.org

-- 
Robin Szemeti

The box said "requires windows 95 or better"
So I installed Linux!



Re: ArsDigita working practices (was: Big Macs v The Naked Chef --)

2001-01-21 Thread Jonathan Stowe

On Sun, 21 Jan 2001, Michael Stevens wrote:

 On Sun, Jan 21, 2001 at 08:37:02PM +, Kieran Barry wrote:
  TCL is used because its multithreaded. Perl 6 is going to be
  multithreaded. It should be able to wipe TCL out.
 
 I've never actually understood the appeal of threads. Why do
 people like them?
 

Thats a trick question right ?

/J\
-- 
Jonathan Stowe   |   
http://www.gellyfish.com |   I'm with Grep on this one 
http://www.tackleway.co.uk   |




Re: ArsDigita working practices (was: Big Macs v The Naked Chef -- )

2001-01-21 Thread Greg McCarroll

y* Michael Stevens ([EMAIL PROTECTED]) wrote:
 On Sun, Jan 21, 2001 at 09:05:43PM +, Michael Stevens wrote:
  Ok, it's trolling a bit, but their main use seems to be where
  you don't want to bother to do proper nonblocking IO...
 
 quick web search
 
 They're apparently faster. And make it easier to share data.


aside from the whole LWP aspect, i think the main appeal is they are
a defined art - unlike the matre'd/minicab controller element of 
forked process management

we really want standardisation of technology interfaces in the industry,
and threads go a little towards that - oh and a law that alows be to
go around and shooting people who work in IT and i deep unworthy[1].

Greg

[1] i'm willing to limit this law to semi-automatic weapons - i'm that
reasonable

-- 
Greg McCarroll  http://www.mccarroll.uklinux.net



Re: Consultancy company- Where do you want to go?

2001-01-21 Thread Mark Townsend

What sort of work do you want to do?  What sort of business do you seek?
Body shop, A-Team or bespoke software house?

This message generated a few threads:  Working from home v office; pair
programming vs traditional project "individual portions"; and handling
client contact or involvement.  These issues are all related to winning a
project from a client and going away to develop it (bespoke software?).

At least one earlier message concerned body-shopping i.e. putting a bunch of
developers into a site e.g. an investment bank and hiring them out on time
and materials basis.  This replaces the agents with your own salesman, then
gets the team members into sites as contractors (there are many small to
medium sized consultancies in this market sector).

A lot of the messages seem to be based on the developers dream of working
with a bunch of drinking buddies (generally a good thing) and seem to assume
a software house type of business.  This model is for fixed price work with
whole projects paid on delivery of the project or stages thereof and
variation orders.

The "A-Team" - scenario is one in which a team goes in to rescue a failing
project, or go in and retune/redesign an existing project that works but has
become a victim of its own success.  Think of this work as bespoke
enhancements.

Unless someone brings some business to the venture (e.g. a client with a
requirement or an idea for a new software invention with sufficient
funding), the venture will need someone to bring in the business.

If the venture has a mix of bespoke software and body-shopping then the
premises will not need a desk for every member to be in the office
concurrently (at any time. some will be out at client site).

Usually within a fixed length contract there may be times when a contractor
needs to get some more work from the client.  At such times the worker
attends project meetings and planning sessions which are part of the job and
are paid.   A consultancy must attend meetings and discuss project
requirements in order to win business.  Fees will need to cover the
consultancy for periods off charge, so basing project costs on say charging
sixty pounds per developer hour will not cover all the costs.

So, at the meeting, I suggest a few questions for the agenda:  What sort of
business do you expect to win?

What funding have you (living of savings until you get money in)?

How do you want to spend your savings (office space, salesman, equipment)?

Mark




Re: ArsDigita working practices (was: Big Macs v The Naked Chef -- )

2001-01-21 Thread Michael Stevens

On Sun, Jan 21, 2001 at 10:58:54PM +, Greg McCarroll wrote:
 y* Michael Stevens ([EMAIL PROTECTED]) wrote:
  On Sun, Jan 21, 2001 at 09:05:43PM +, Michael Stevens wrote:
   Ok, it's trolling a bit, but their main use seems to be where
   you don't want to bother to do proper nonblocking IO...
  quick web search
  They're apparently faster. And make it easier to share data.
 aside from the whole LWP aspect, i think the main appeal is they are
 a defined art - unlike the matre'd/minicab controller element of 
 forked process management

Hmm, it just always feels like someone sat down once and said "ok,
we have two choices:

1) we could improve proccesses, and IPC, and make them useful and standard
and easy for the task we want to do.

2) we could ignore the considerable work we spent implementing processes,
and build a new form of thing, and them build all our standards on top
of that

". And they picked the second option.

 we really want standardisation of technology interfaces in the industry,
 and threads go a little towards that - oh and a law that alows be to
 go around and shooting people who work in IT and i deep unworthy[1].

I do agree with this part.



Re: ArsDigita working practices (was: Big Macs v The Naked Chef -- )

2001-01-21 Thread Greg McCarroll

* Michael Stevens ([EMAIL PROTECTED]) wrote:
  we really want standardisation of technology interfaces in the industry,
  and threads go a little towards that - oh and a law that alows be to
  go around and shooting people who work in IT and i deep unworthy[1].
 
 I do agree with this part.


the standardisation on the bloody massacre part?


-- 
Greg McCarroll  http://www.mccarroll.uklinux.net



Re: ArsDigita working practices (was: Big Macs v The Naked Chef -- )

2001-01-21 Thread Michael Stevens

On Sun, Jan 21, 2001 at 11:24:03PM +, Greg McCarroll wrote:
 * Michael Stevens ([EMAIL PROTECTED]) wrote:
   we really want standardisation of technology interfaces in the industry,
   and threads go a little towards that - oh and a law that alows be to
   go around and shooting people who work in IT and i deep unworthy[1].
  I do agree with this part.
 the standardisation on the bloody massacre part?

Actually both.

Michael



Fw: Consultancy company- Where do you want to go?

2001-01-21 Thread Mark Townsend

Back to list


 * Mark Townsend ([EMAIL PROTECTED]) wrote:

 snip


All of what Mark said is bang on.

 So, at the meeting, I suggest a few questions for the agenda:
  What sort of business do you expect to win?

 What funding have you (living of savings until you get money in)?

 How do you want to spend your savings (office space, salesman, equipment)?

 i'd add one question, where/what do you expect to be/have in 2 years? and
 if its the have then what portion of it do you expect to have?

 Greg

--
 Greg McCarroll  http://www.mccarroll.uklinux.net





Re: ArsDigita working practices (was: Big Macs v The Naked Chef --)

2001-01-21 Thread Kieran Barry

On Sun, 21 Jan 2001, Michael Stevens wrote:

 On Sun, Jan 21, 2001 at 08:37:02PM +, Kieran Barry wrote:
  TCL is used because its multithreaded. Perl 6 is going to be
  multithreaded. It should be able to wipe TCL out.
 
 I've never actually understood the appeal of threads. Why do
 people like them?
 
The concept of execution threads within a process makes it easy to share
resources like database connections. As I understand it, that's it. The
pre-forked model that Apache uses has a problem because it's tough to
share resources.

Incidentally, I think this is the reason servlets are used.

Regards

Kieran




Re: ArsDigita working practices (was: Big Macs v The Naked Chef --)

2001-01-21 Thread Jonathan Stowe

On Sun, 21 Jan 2001, Greg McCarroll wrote:
 y* Michael Stevens ([EMAIL PROTECTED]) wrote:
  On Sun, Jan 21, 2001 at 09:05:43PM +, Michael Stevens wrote:
   Ok, it's trolling a bit, but their main use seems to be where
   you don't want to bother to do proper nonblocking IO...
  
  quick web search
  
  They're apparently faster. And make it easier to share data.
 
 aside from the whole LWP aspect, i think the main appeal is they are
 a defined art - unlike the matre'd/minicab controller element of 
 forked process management
 
 we really want standardisation of technology interfaces in the industry,
 and threads go a little towards that - oh and a law that alows be to
 go around and shooting people who work in IT and i deep unworthy[1].
 

Ah that'll be Grep pissed with his week then :)

/J\
-- 
Jonathan Stowe   |   
http://www.gellyfish.com |   I'm with Grep on this one 
http://www.tackleway.co.uk   |




Re: Consultancy company

2001-01-21 Thread Piers Cawley

Robin Szemeti [EMAIL PROTECTED] writes:

 On Sat, 20 Jan 2001, you wrote:
 
  I don't see why you can't have a mix - it would be good to have a core
  group of people who always (nearl) work in the office so that if you
  usually work from home but need some face 2 face there will be people
  there (or in a pub nearby). things like IRC and email provide good
  communication about what is going on and can be used to acounce when and
  where people are.
 
 thats true enough .. although it doesn't fit in with the XP model that
 well .. but there is always MOTWTDI  ..  the basic problem is that
 'office' workers see 'home' workers as a bunch of idle slackers who only
 pretend to work from home and really spend the day gardening, and 'home'
 workers see 'office' workers as bunch of people who;d rather spend the day
 arseing about and chatting than actually doing something .. 

I rush to point out that those stereotypes were *not* what I was on
about in my "I'm really unsure about telecommuting" thing. I'm one of
the gregarious types.

-- 
Piers





Re: ArsDigita working practices (was: Big Macs v The Naked Chef -- )

2001-01-21 Thread Michael Stevens

On Sun, Jan 21, 2001 at 10:34:54PM +, Kieran Barry wrote:
 The concept of execution threads within a process makes it easy to share
 resources like database connections. As I understand it, that's it. The
 pre-forked model that Apache uses has a problem because it's tough to
 share resources.
 
 Incidentally, I think this is the reason servlets are used.

Servlets are actually pretty nice. They're like mod_perl handlers except
they feel... cleaner somehow. IMHO, anyway.

Michael



Re: Extreme Programming (was: Re: Consultancy company)

2001-01-21 Thread Piers Cawley

David Cantrell [EMAIL PROTECTED] writes:

 On Sat, Jan 20, 2001 at 12:24:24AM +, Piers Cawley wrote:
 
  Now, I freely admit that I have partaken of the Extreme Programming
  Kool-Aid, and dammit I want to do it.
 
 I want to try it too.  I'm not convinced by all of it - pair programming
 for example - but so much of the other stuff seems damned sensible that
 I want to give it a go.  Including pair programming.  I'm trying to keep
 an open mind on that fucking stupid idea.

When they got the permie in who's taking over the project I'd been
working on, we spent a fair amount of time doing the PP thing. And it
was great. A *fantastic* way of getting information shared and passed
on for what was basically a decently engineered but atrociously
documented project. By the time I left, James knew his way around the
system and was confident he could extend it as required. And I was
confident he was right about that. (Did my ego good to know I'd
written something without sanity checking that was relatively easy for
someone to pick up quickly too...)

-- 
Piers




Re: Consultancy company

2001-01-21 Thread Piers Cawley

Robin Szemeti [EMAIL PROTECTED] writes:

 On Sat, 20 Jan 2001, you wrote:
  
  One customer. On site. Full time. Absolute honesty. Get them on your
  side. The are the people who are *paying* for this, they deserve
  nothing but your honesty. Tell 'em about any problems and tell 'em
  early. Tell 'em about successes and tell 'em early. Get the customer
  rep onside and you have an advocated. Treat the customers like a
  mushrooms and you don't get repeat business.
 
 sounds great ... when do we start.
 
 Seriously XP sounds like it should work .. I read the books I was
 convinced.
 
 The only thing that occasioanlly worries me about it is that my current
 client is still working his way up to being a mushroom. Apart from that
 the client has a total staff of 5. I cant see them sparing 20% of their
 workforce in order to sit and keep the developers comapny. Worse still I
 have not yet had a decision on anything in less than 24hrs. I think that
 would haold true even if they were on site too.
 
 So I am really keen to do an XP managed project ... if it really does
 work then that sfantastic, best result I could ever have. I suspect that
 it fails, just in different ways to other project managment systems.
 
 obvious ones:
 
 The client doesn;t send Big Chief to sit with the designers, instead

'designers' is kind of the wrong term with XP. 

 they send Useless Minion. UM is positive and helpful and gives quick
 decisions ona whole variety of topics. And a week later turns up
 with changes handed down by Big Chief overiding those decisions.
 worse still the decisions handed down make no sense because he
 hasn;t been with the team and doesn;t undrstand whats going on.

This one is, potentially a problem. I'd say that, as a company
consulting with the company you make *bloody* sure that the client is
aware of the importance of the 'on site' customer, and of their status
as final arbiter. It's also stressed that the OSC can say "I'll get
back to you on that", but a lot of the time questions that need to be
answered are uncontroversial and can be answered trivially even by a
UM.

And because the XP approach advocates code that passes its tests at
all times, the political value of something that is actually doing
stuff can be useful too.

And if the Big Cheese does hand down decisions that override the
Minion then the contract between developer and client should stipulate
that the client pays for the wasted time.

And if this does happen then we should learn from this how to improve
our 'client interview' process. Which kind of implies that our sales
teams should work pairwise as well so that there's experienced
developers in on the interview too.

 Client has no concept about what software development is like and within
 a week or two cancels the entire thing 'some of those guys spent a whole
 week working and half the time couldnt even get it to run, by the end of
 the week all they'd done was write some strange "library" code and even
 that doesn;t seem to do anything'

Remember that, with the XP approach, library code doesn't get written so
much as it kind of happens. If you don't need it *now* you don't write
it. Add functionality as you require it.

 
 but hey .. next person organising a XP based project that needs a junior
 perl hacker .. gimme a shout .. 




Re: Extreme Programming (was: Re: Consultancy company)

2001-01-21 Thread Piers Cawley

"Dean S Wilson" [EMAIL PROTECTED] writes:

 -Original Message-
 From: Aaron Trevena [EMAIL PROTECTED]
 
 
 I did a little pair programming at emap - I probably wasn't doing it
 right
 tho'. even so we did get thru the hard bits quicker and could split
 up to
 do the easy stuff. I think it made a difference but then I was mostly
 being a backseat coder so either we did okay or stuart was very
 tolerant
 indeed.
 
 
 How did you establish who would make good pairings? Was it done by
 trying to place two equals or was it done more on a mentoring level of
 a very experienced coder and a less experienced one? (I've not read
 that much on XP)

The Dictum in the XP literature appears to be 'nobody is allowed to
say "No"', pairs form and re form on task by task basis. 'Regular'
pairs are to be discouraged. XP Installed has a bunch of stuff on
this.

 Has anyone who's used XP had a client that was willing to make an
 employee available pretty much full time or was it more they come in
 for a chunk of the afternoon three times a week? I have an issue with
 the fact that clients will be willing to pay a member of staff to
 spend all day in the consultants office in case they need to be asked
 questions.

The XP argument goes something like:

This team costs you X000/day. Your liason costs you X00/day. We
believe that having someone available to us, on site, full time (but
able to do however much of their work that can be done remotely), will
dramatically reduce the amount of our time it takes to deliver a
product, and will also increase the final value of that product. Do
the maths. (Well, maybe not quite so bluntly, but you take my point) 

 I'm not saying its a bad thing to have someone on hand, I can see
 its uses but from the clients point of view why not just have
 contact by phone/email. That was the liaison has access to everyone
 in his base office so he can resolve issues faster with more
 authority than if he were in your offices. Also you have a paper
 trail of requests, questions and responses.

There's a whole chapter on this in XP Installed. Paraphrasing,

  "Customer onsite == answer in 30 seconds.
   Customer offsite == answer today."

They also point out that you can make either version work, but the
onsite customer option works best.

-- 
Piers




Re: ArsDigita working practices (was: Big Macs v The Naked Chef -- )

2001-01-21 Thread Robin Szemeti

On Sun, 21 Jan 2001, you wrote:

 Keeping employees 101: Show respect, recognise them, care for
 them and provide opportunity for growth.  It's all about the
 love; that's all anyone really wants.

and money ... lots and lots of money ...

-- 
Robin Szemeti

The box said "requires windows 95 or better"
So I installed Linux!



Re: Consultancy company

2001-01-21 Thread Robin Szemeti

On Sun, 21 Jan 2001, you wrote:

 I rush to point out that those stereotypes were *not* what I was on
 about in my "I'm really unsure about telecommuting" thing. I'm one of
 the gregarious types.

acknowledged ...

those 'stereotypes' where pretty extreme and I am sure there are other
issues on both sides

my basic thrust was however: don't discount any possibilities ... lets
open doors not close them before we even get there. Personally I am quite
happy to do the office based thing, I don;t have a problem with it. I
also enjoy doing the home thing.  

Different working methods suit different people and different projects.
Surely the best outcome is success, success = happiness and happiness =
enjoying what you are doing.  One of the best things about having your own
consultancy is surely that there is no PHB laying down cast iron rules,
sure what we do has to make VERY good business sense and  be based on
sound policies that we can all agree to but lets try and keep things
'open'. flexi-time, pinball machines, games room .. whatever .. if its
reasonable then do it. 

The overiding thing should be 'make this the very best company to work
for AND the very best company to have work done by' A1 bleeding edge code
written by the planets happiest programmers ... sounds like a good recipe
to me. 

-- 
Robin Szemeti

The box said "requires windows 95 or better"
So I installed Linux!



Re: Consultancy company

2001-01-21 Thread Robin Szemeti

On Sun, 21 Jan 2001, you wrote:

  The client doesn;t send Big Chief to sit with the designers, instead
 
 'designers' is kind of the wrong term with XP. 

agreed

  they send Useless Minion. UM is positive and helpful and gives quick
  decisions ona whole variety of topics. And a week later turns up
  with changes handed down by Big Chief overiding those decisions.
  worse still the decisions handed down make no sense because he
  hasn;t been with the team and doesn;t undrstand whats going on.
 
 This one is, potentially a problem. I'd say that, as a company
 consulting with the company you make *bloody* sure that the client is
 aware of the importance of the 'on site' customer, and of their status
 as final arbiter. It's also stressed that the OSC can say "I'll get
 back to you on that", but a lot of the time questions that need to be
 answered are uncontroversial and can be answered trivially even by a
 UM.

in my experience getting simlpe concepts across to large and
important clients can sometimes be difficult when a) the subject has a
funny word in it like 'computer' and b) they don't know what that word
means.

I just can;t help wondering if it will work .. if it does then I will be
no 1 happy bunny. I have XP installed sitting right here and tagged up
for a re-read this week (i'm having a month or so off to recover from a
12 month period of development with little breaks) ... 

and this template toolit thing rocks dunnit .. (now I have the hang of it
.. sorta)

-- 
Robin Szemeti

The box said "requires windows 95 or better"
So I installed Linux!



Re: ArsDigita working practices (was: Big Macs v The Naked Chef -- )

2001-01-21 Thread Paul Makepeace

On Sun, Jan 21, 2001 at 11:32:19PM +, Robin Szemeti wrote:
 On Sun, 21 Jan 2001, you wrote:

[Could you configure your editor/mailer to attribute correctly?]

  Keeping employees 101: Show respect, recognise them, care for
  them and provide opportunity for growth.  It's all about the
  love; that's all anyone really wants.
 
 and money ... lots and lots of money ...

Money is a beautiful thing, there's no doubt.

Paul, just got a check, er, cheque finally...



Re: distributed.net

2001-01-21 Thread David H. Adler

On Sun, Jan 21, 2001 at 07:50:17PM +, Greg McCarroll wrote:
 
 if you could email me the password to PMU i'd be grateful, also what
 is the focus of PMU - OGR or RC5?

Unfortunately, since I didn't start it, I dunno.  I'll see if I can
track down who's responsible.

dha

-- 
David H. Adler - [EMAIL PROTECTED] - http://www.panix.com/~dha/
"I... would... like... the... Screamin'... Jay... Hawkins...  box
set... and DVD... please"
  - #9 Sign Someone Has Cast a Spell On You