RE: Boat Storage

[Rod DiBona]

Great information Steve. Thanks for a great post that we can all benefit from.

Rod at Rapid Fire

From: Sprinklerforum  On Behalf 
Of Steve Leyton
Sent: Thursday, February 21, 2019 10:36 AM
To: sprinklerforum@lists.firesprinkler.org
Subject: RE: Boat Storage

Boat storage is one of the highest hazards imaginable, with sometimes dense 
arrays of trailered and/or racked boats composed of fiberglass shells with foam 
cores.  There have been a few boat storage fires over the past few years, most 
recently one in Georgia on 7 October, 2018.  That fire consumed 86 (I think, 
accounts vary) boats and burned TO THE GROUND.   A couple of compelling 
pictures can be found here:

https://patch.com/georgia/buford/86-boats-lost-during-fire-buford-dam-road-boat-storage

I November there was a smaller fire at a boat yard in Marblehead, MA that 
consumed 6 boats.  Compelling phots can be found here, showing just how 
completely involved these foam sandwich hulls get and how insane the release 
rate can be:

https://www.wcvb.com/article/fire-at-boat-storage-yard-under-investigation/25355347

I’m not an FPE and won’t guess at what the recommended protection should be, 
but I wonder if protecting for Group A is adequate – exposed expanded perhaps?  
  EVERYTHING on a boat can burn except the SS hardware and engine blocks.  Also 
should verify whether the facility has a “dry” storage mandate so that fuel 
tanks are emptied before admission.

In his presentations over the years, Chief Ron Coleman has often told the story 
of the fire that changed him from firefighter into fire prevention advocate.   
If I recall correctly, it was in the Sacramento area and was a boat storage 
fire and it burned over 100 boats into dust.   He said it was so hot they could 
feel it a quarter-mile away.   At that moment, the lightbulb came on when he 
realized that sprinklers might have prevented the fire.   These facilities are 
nasty, nasty stuff.

Steve L.

From: Sprinklerforum [mailto:sprinklerforum-boun...@lists.firesprinkler.org] On 
Behalf Of Fpdcdesign
Sent: Thursday, February 21, 2019 9:24 AM
To: Sprinklerforum
Subject: Re: Boat Storage

Rack storage?


On Feb 21, 2019 at 12:21 PM, mailto:jcrawf...@phaserfire.ca>> 
wrote:
I have been asked to look at a new building for boat storage but cannot seem to 
find any guidance, has anyone done a boat storage building that can point me in 
the right direction.


Thank you


James Crawford
Phaser Fire Protection Ltd.
Phone  604-888-0318
Fax 604-888-4732
Cel 604-790-0938
Email  jcrawf...@phaserfire.ca<mailto:jcrawf...@phaserfire.ca>
Web www.phaserfire.ca<http://www.phaserfire.ca>

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Re: Boat Storage

[Travis Mack]

Ha. Touché. I was meaning there was no criteria for it. Yes, it is called out 
as outside the scope. 

And I would run fast from 60’ tall rack storage of boats. 

Travis Mack, CFPS, CWBSP, RME-G, SET
480-505-9271
MFP Design, LLC
"Follow" us on Facebook: 
https://www.facebook.com/pages/MFP-Design-LLC/92218417692
Send large files to MFP Design via:
https://www.hightail.com/u/MFPDesign

Sent from my iPhone

> On Feb 21, 2019, at 11:15 AM, Roland Huggins  
> wrote:
> 
> Travis.  Allow me to correct your statement.  It is in NFPA 13.  Look at 
> Table A.5.6.  Although the title of this Table is weak (that being Examples 
> of Commodities Not Addressed by Classifications in Section 5.6), it should 
> say OUTSIDE THE SCOPE OF NFPA 13.
> 
> Hey I know the end result of both statements is the same - lol.  IT does make 
> a difference, though, in the discussion with the owner.
> 
> Roland 
> 
> 
> Roland Huggins, PE - Senior VP Engineering
> American Fire Sprinkler Assn.
> Dallas, TX
> http://www.firesprinkler.org
> 
> Fire Sprinklers Saves Lives
> 
> 
> 
> 
>> On Feb 21, 2019, at 9:23 AM, Travis Mack, SET, CFPS, CWBSP, RME-G 
>>  wrote:
>> 
>> Nothing in NFPA standards for it.  Check with the insurance company for the 
>> project.  They may have guidance.
>>  
>> 
>> Travis Mack, CFPS, CWBSP, RME-G, SET
>> MFP Design, LLC
>> 3356 E Vallejo Ct
>> Gilbert, AZ 85298
>> 480-505-9271
>> fax: 866-430-6107
>> tm...@mfpdesign.com
>>  
>> Send large files to us via: https://www.hightail.com/u/MFPDesign
>> LinkedIn: https://www.linkedin.com/in/travismack
>>  
>> “The bitterness of poor quality remains long after the sweetness of low 
>> price is forgotten.”
>>  
>>  
>> From: Sprinklerforum  On 
>> Behalf Of James Crawford
>> Sent: Thursday, February 21, 2019 10:21 AM
>> To: sprinklerforum@lists.firesprinkler.org
>> Subject: Boat Storage
>>  
>> I have been asked to look at a new building for boat storage but cannot seem 
>> to find any guidance, has anyone done a boat storage building that can point 
>> me in the right direction.
>>  
>>  
>> Thank you
>>  
>>  
>> James Crawford
>> Phaser Fire Protection Ltd.
>> Phone  604-888-0318
>> Fax 604-888-4732
>> Cel 604-790-0938
>> Email  jcrawf...@phaserfire.ca
>> Web www.phaserfire.ca
>>  
>> ___
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> 
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Re: Boat Storage

[Roland Huggins]

Travis.  Allow me to correct your statement.  It is in NFPA 13.  Look at Table 
A.5.6.  Although the title of this Table is weak (that being Examples of 
Commodities Not Addressed by Classifications in Section 5.6), it should say 
OUTSIDE THE SCOPE OF NFPA 13.

Hey I know the end result of both statements is the same - lol.  IT does make a 
difference, though, in the discussion with the owner.

Roland 


Roland Huggins, PE - Senior VP Engineering
American Fire Sprinkler Assn.
Dallas, TX
http://www.firesprinkler.org 

Fire Sprinklers Saves Lives




> On Feb 21, 2019, at 9:23 AM, Travis Mack, SET, CFPS, CWBSP, RME-G 
>  wrote:
> 
> Nothing in NFPA standards for it.  Check with the insurance company for the 
> project.  They may have guidance.
>  
>  
> Travis Mack, CFPS, CWBSP, RME-G, SET
> MFP Design, LLC
> 3356 E Vallejo Ct
> Gilbert, AZ 85298
> 480-505-9271
> fax: 866-430-6107
> tm...@mfpdesign.com 
>  
> Send large files to us via: https://www.hightail.com/u/MFPDesign 
> 
> LinkedIn: https://www.linkedin.com/in/travismack 
> 
>  
> “The bitterness of poor quality remains long after the sweetness of low price 
> is forgotten.”
>  
>  
> From: Sprinklerforum  > On Behalf Of James 
> Crawford
> Sent: Thursday, February 21, 2019 10:21 AM
> To: sprinklerforum@lists.firesprinkler.org 
> 
> Subject: Boat Storage
>  
> I have been asked to look at a new building for boat storage but cannot seem 
> to find any guidance, has anyone done a boat storage building that can point 
> me in the right direction.
>  
>  
> Thank you
>  
>  
> James Crawford
> Phaser Fire Protection Ltd.
> Phone  604-888-0318
> Fax 604-888-4732
> Cel 604-790-0938
> Email  jcrawf...@phaserfire.ca 
> Web www.phaserfire.ca 
>  
> ___
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> 
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> 
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RE: Boat Storage

[Steve Leyton]

Boat storage is one of the highest hazards imaginable, with sometimes dense 
arrays of trailered and/or racked boats composed of fiberglass shells with foam 
cores.  There have been a few boat storage fires over the past few years, most 
recently one in Georgia on 7 October, 2018.  That fire consumed 86 (I think, 
accounts vary) boats and burned TO THE GROUND.   A couple of compelling 
pictures can be found here:

https://patch.com/georgia/buford/86-boats-lost-during-fire-buford-dam-road-boat-storage

I November there was a smaller fire at a boat yard in Marblehead, MA that 
consumed 6 boats.  Compelling phots can be found here, showing just how 
completely involved these foam sandwich hulls get and how insane the release 
rate can be:

https://www.wcvb.com/article/fire-at-boat-storage-yard-under-investigation/25355347

I’m not an FPE and won’t guess at what the recommended protection should be, 
but I wonder if protecting for Group A is adequate – exposed expanded perhaps?  
  EVERYTHING on a boat can burn except the SS hardware and engine blocks.  Also 
should verify whether the facility has a “dry” storage mandate so that fuel 
tanks are emptied before admission.

In his presentations over the years, Chief Ron Coleman has often told the story 
of the fire that changed him from firefighter into fire prevention advocate.   
If I recall correctly, it was in the Sacramento area and was a boat storage 
fire and it burned over 100 boats into dust.   He said it was so hot they could 
feel it a quarter-mile away.   At that moment, the lightbulb came on when he 
realized that sprinklers might have prevented the fire.   These facilities are 
nasty, nasty stuff.

Steve L.

From: Sprinklerforum [mailto:sprinklerforum-boun...@lists.firesprinkler.org] On 
Behalf Of Fpdcdesign
Sent: Thursday, February 21, 2019 9:24 AM
To: Sprinklerforum
Subject: Re: Boat Storage

Rack storage?



On Feb 21, 2019 at 12:21 PM, mailto:jcrawf...@phaserfire.ca>> 
wrote:
I have been asked to look at a new building for boat storage but cannot seem to 
find any guidance, has anyone done a boat storage building that can point me in 
the right direction.


Thank you


James Crawford
Phaser Fire Protection Ltd.
Phone  604-888-0318
Fax 604-888-4732
Cel 604-790-0938
Email  jcrawf...@phaserfire.ca
Web www.phaserfire.ca

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RE: Boat Storage

[Travis Mack, SET, CFPS, CWBSP, RME-G]

Send it to an FPE for a performance based design.  There will not be 
prescriptive standards to address that situation.

 

 <http://www.mfpdesign.com/> 

Travis Mack, CFPS, CWBSP, RME-G, SET

MFP Design, LLC

3356 E Vallejo Ct

Gilbert, AZ 85298

480-505-9271

fax: 866-430-6107

 <mailto:tm...@mfpdesign.com> tm...@mfpdesign.com

 

Send large files to us via:  
<https://na01.safelinks.protection.outlook.com/?url=https%3A%2F%2Fwww.hightail.com%2Fu%2FMFPDesign=02%7C01%7C%7C1121d49f9e6b4cf248f108d4df580e77%7C14e5497c16da42e69ffa77d19bafe511%7C0%7C0%7C636379016677342180=eGdMZGu2wXhUupGwgGTrqF3b54OP5%2BAZvlHhABSexWY%3D=0>
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LinkedIn:  
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 https://www.linkedin.com/in/travismack

 

“The bitterness of poor quality remains long after the sweetness of low price 
is forgotten.”

 

 

From: Sprinklerforum  On Behalf 
Of James Crawford
Sent: Thursday, February 21, 2019 10:30 AM
To: sprinklerforum@lists.firesprinkler.org
Subject: RE: Boat Storage

 

Rack storage up to 60’

 

 

Thank you

 

 

James Crawford

Phaser Fire Protection Ltd.

Phone  604-888-0318

Fax 604-888-4732

Cel 604-790-0938

Email  jcrawf...@phaserfire.ca <mailto:jcrawf...@phaserfire.ca> 

Web www.phaserfire.ca <http://www.phaserfire.ca> 

 

 

 

From: Sprinklerforum [mailto:sprinklerforum-boun...@lists.firesprinkler.org] On 
Behalf Of Fpdcdesign
Sent: Thursday, February 21, 2019 9:24 AM
To: Sprinklerforum
Subject: Re: Boat Storage

 

Rack storage?





On Feb 21, 2019 at 12:21 PM, mailto:jcrawf...@phaserfire.ca> > 
wrote:

I have been asked to look at a new building for boat storage but cannot seem to 
find any guidance, has anyone done a boat storage building that can point me in 
the right direction.

 

 

Thank you

 

 

James Crawford

Phaser Fire Protection Ltd.

Phone  604-888-0318

Fax 604-888-4732

Cel 604-790-0938

Email  jcrawf...@phaserfire.ca <mailto:jcrawf...@phaserfire.ca> 

Web www.phaserfire.ca <http://www.phaserfire.ca> 

 

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RE: Boat Storage

[James Crawford]

Rack storage up to 60’

 

 

Thank you

 

 

James Crawford

Phaser Fire Protection Ltd.

Phone  604-888-0318

Fax 604-888-4732

Cel 604-790-0938

Email  jcrawf...@phaserfire.ca

Web www.phaserfire.ca

 

 

 

From: Sprinklerforum [mailto:sprinklerforum-boun...@lists.firesprinkler.org] On 
Behalf Of Fpdcdesign
Sent: Thursday, February 21, 2019 9:24 AM
To: Sprinklerforum
Subject: Re: Boat Storage

 

Rack storage?






On Feb 21, 2019 at 12:21 PM, mailto:jcrawf...@phaserfire.ca> > 
wrote:

I have been asked to look at a new building for boat storage but cannot seem to 
find any guidance, has anyone done a boat storage building that can point me in 
the right direction.

 

 

Thank you

 

 

James Crawford

Phaser Fire Protection Ltd.

Phone  604-888-0318

Fax 604-888-4732

Cel 604-790-0938

Email  jcrawf...@phaserfire.ca

Web www.phaserfire.ca

 

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Re: Boat Storage

[Fpdcdesign]

 
 

 Rack storage?
 

 
 

 
 
>  
> On Feb 21, 2019 at 12:21 PM,   (mailto:jcrawf...@phaserfire.ca)>  wrote:
>  
>  
>
>  
>
> I have been asked to look at a new building for boat storage but cannot seem 
> to find any guidance, has anyone done a boat storage building that can point 
> me in the right direction.
>
>  
>
>  
>
>  
>
>  
>
>  
>
> Thank you
>
>  
>
>  
>
>  
>
>  
>
>  
>
> James Crawford
>
>  
>
> Phaser Fire Protection Ltd.
>
>  
>
> Phone604-888-0318
>
>  
>
> Fax 604-888-4732
>
>  
>
> Cel 604-790-0938
>
>  
>
> Emailjcrawf...@phaserfire.ca
>
>  
>
> Web www.phaserfire.ca
>
>  
>
>  
>
>  
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RE: Boat Storage

[Travis Mack, SET, CFPS, CWBSP, RME-G]

Nothing in NFPA standards for it.  Check with the insurance company for the
project.  They may have guidance.

 

  

Travis Mack, CFPS, CWBSP, RME-G, SET

MFP Design, LLC

3356 E Vallejo Ct

Gilbert, AZ 85298

480-505-9271

fax: 866-430-6107

  tm...@mfpdesign.com

 

Send large files to us via:

https://www.hightail.com/u/MFPDesign 

LinkedIn:

https://www.linkedin.com/in/travismack

 

"The bitterness of poor quality remains long after the sweetness of low
price is forgotten."

 

 

From: Sprinklerforum  On
Behalf Of James Crawford
Sent: Thursday, February 21, 2019 10:21 AM
To: sprinklerforum@lists.firesprinkler.org
Subject: Boat Storage

 

I have been asked to look at a new building for boat storage but cannot seem
to find any guidance, has anyone done a boat storage building that can point
me in the right direction.

 

 

Thank you

 

 

James Crawford

Phaser Fire Protection Ltd.

Phone  604-888-0318

Fax 604-888-4732

Cel 604-790-0938

Email  jcrawf...@phaserfire.ca  

Web www.phaserfire.ca  

 

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RE: boat storage

[Russell]

Tom, I have some papers written on this. Contact me off line because it's
large .pdf's.

Russell Rewis
Brown Automatic Sprinklers, Inc.
107C Hemlock Street
Valdosta, Georgia 31601
229-244-8130
russ...@brownautomatic.com

-Original Message-
Subject: boat storage

Ii have a in rack boat storage facility, 4 stories, I am thinking that ESFR
16.8 for 12 spkrs however I am not sure what to use as a density, flr to flr
is 20' - 4 racks per floor, just go for the rated flow/psi per head ?
Tom Poisal, CET

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RE: boat storage

[Craig.Prahl]

Ah and there's the rub, many of the specifying EOR's won't know what an NFPA 
compliant system would be.  When it comes to Fire Protection, the engineering 
trade is relying more and more on the contractor to figure out everything.  

I wouldn't run away from the job.  I agree with what has been said, I would 
write the EOR a letter explaining that there is no specific NFPA compliant 
system and HE needs to determine and define the criteria to which you will 
layout the system.  Rubber stampers who use that Design and Install per NFPA 
13 note on every job really irk me.  

Is there an insurance underwriter or local fire official perhaps who would 
weigh-in on the subject?  

Right now NFPA 303 and the NFPA research paper are about the only things that 
you have to reference from a potential design standpoint.




Craig L. Prahl, CET   
Fire Protection Specialist
Mechanical Department
CH2MHILL
Lockwood Greene
1500 International Drive
Spartanburg, SC  29304-0491
Direct - 864.599.4102
Fax - 864.599.8439
craig.pr...@ch2m.com
http://www.ch2m.com 


-Original Message-
From: sprinklerforum-boun...@firesprinkler.org 
[mailto:sprinklerforum-boun...@firesprinkler.org] On Behalf Of Todd Williams
Sent: Tuesday, May 04, 2010 12:29 AM
To: sprinklerforum@firesprinkler.org
Subject: Re: boat storage

What Ron said. The EOR said install an NFPA compliant system and 
there is no NFPA compliant system. Kick it back and let him figure it 
out. Make sure you copy everyone except you mother-in-law.


At 08:42 PM 5/3/2010, you wrote:
okay Todd so today, what do I do?

On Mon, May 3, 2010 at 7:45 PM, Todd Williams t...@fpdc.com wrote:

  The big problem is that we do not know what will work.  If you design
  a system based on what you think is best without actually knowing
  what will work, you are opening yourself up to a huge liability
  problem if there ever is a fire. Run is not running away from the
  problem, it's running away from the liability. It's an occupancy that
  needs analysis, much like records storage did a few years ago (I
  guess pretty much resolved as of 2010 edition)
 
 
 
  At 07:02 PM 5/3/2010, you wrote:
  Brian, encouraging others to run as well  is hardly a professional
  response, your synopsis is relevant for an insurer, but I am asked to
  design a fire sprinkler protection system to reasonably protect a
  hazard, WHAT I should run? Give the owner a break and design a system
  as best as I can within the applicable codes, your self designed
  barrier of 3' width with K-17 or ELO heads is crazy where is the
  documentation for this, amounts for headaches for the owner whenever
  they move boats.  I guess it's a this is what we have deal,  deal with
  it...refusing to address a problem really irks meby the way you
  have so many disclaimers why would you care?  See FL Chapter 61G15-27,
  etc
  
  On 5/3/10, den1 d...@global-fire.com wrote:
Here is my take on in-door boat storage marinas. Many of these
structures reach 50 feet in height and have what amounts to multi-row
rack storage of plastics containing flammable liquids. There has been
  no
large scale fire testing (yet) and there is no way to apply NFPA 13 for
a code compliant system without some type of performance based element.
Here are the elements you have to deal with:
   
1. High elevations that decrease sprinkler effectiveness
2. Flammable liquids control when one boat drops on to those below
3. Possible rack supported buildings and structural failure during a
  fire
4. Possible drainage issues
5. Most likely exposure issues around these buildings that limit fire
department access
6. Structural rack deformation due to overloading  by water filled
  boats
(and don't think for a minute that the 3/4 plug in the hull is going
  to
gravity drain all the water as fast as it comes in - especially when
leaves, sandwich wrappers or other debris partially obstruct the hole.
   
etc, etc.
   
The best arrangement I have seen is to provide a Extra Hazard Group
I density with an increased design area of 3000 + sq. ft. then have a
solid barrier installed below the keel of each boat supported by the
rack. This barrier would be at least 3 feet wide and would have one
  line
of ELO or K-17 sprinklers under the barrier. This puts a line of heads
above every boat below the top row. The only bad thing is the problem
identified in my item 6 above. As the racks are heated and the strength
decreases we are increasing the rack loading.
   
This is a bad occupancy. My firm refuses to do design for them and will
continue to do so until there is adequate testing. I would encourage
other to run as well. As far as I'm concerned no permits should be
  given
for this occupancy until the marine storage industry funds adequate
  full
scale testing and standards are developed to address all the issues.
   
Brian R. Foster, F.P.E., CFSI

Re: boat storage

[den1]

 are increasing the rack loading.

 This is a bad occupancy. My firm refuses to do design for them and will
 continue to do so until there is adequate testing. I would encourage
 other to run as well. As far as I'm concerned no permits should be
  
 given
  
 for this occupancy until the marine storage industry funds adequate
  
 full
  
 scale testing and standards are developed to address all the issues.

 Brian R. Foster, F.P.E., CFSI,
 President
 Registered in: FL, GA, IN, MS, NC, TX, VA and WI
 GLOBAL FIRE ENGINEERING, INC.
 8450 Linger Lodge Rd.
 Bradenton, FL 34202
 P: 941-758-2551
 F: 941-739-6383
 C: 941-928-8138
 _
 Additional Office:
 Murphy, NC - (828)837-2551







 tom poisal wrote:
  
 the E.O.R. emphatically states install a NFPA compliant system

 On 5/3/10, Richardson, Rr.richard...@seattle.gov   wrote:


 Be leery of NFPA 303, last time I checked that standard still
  
 specified a
  
 largely useless standpipe system for piers.  The standard requires a
 class
 III standpipe at some length but allows the supply pipe to be sized
  
 to
  
 class
 II.  In other words largely useless for most fire depts..

 Rich Richardson
 Seattle Fire Department

 -Original Message-
 From: sprinklerforum-boun...@firesprinkler.org
 [mailto:sprinklerforum-boun...@firesprinkler.org] On Behalf Of
 craig.pr...@ch2m.com
 Sent: Monday, May 03, 2010 14:14
 To: sprinklerforum@firesprinkler.org
 Subject: RE: boat storage

 Check in NFPA 303 also.  303 has supposedly equated racked boat
  
 storage
  
 to
 group A plastics storage as referenced in NFPA 13.

 Other options include water mist and Hybrid water based inert gas
  
 systems
  
 (Vortex).

 NFPA 303, 2006
 6.3.4 Indoor Rack Storage.
 6.3.4.1* Where boats are stored on multilevel racks in buildings,
 an approved automatic fire-extinguishing system shall be
 installed throughout the building unless otherwise permitted
 by 6.3.4.2 or 6.3.4.3.
 6.3.4.2 An automatic fire-extinguishing system shall not be
 required for buildings less than 5000 ft2 (465 m2) having multilevel
 racks where provided with one of the following:
 (1) An automatic fire detection and alarm system supervised
 by a central station complying with NFPA 72, National Fire
 Alarm Code
 (2) An automatic fire detection and alarm system supervised
 by a local protective signaling system complying with
 NFPA 72, National Fire Alarm Code, if the provisions of
 6.3.4.2(1) are not technically feasible
 (3) A full-time watch service if the provisions of 6.3.4.2(1) are
 not technically feasible
 6.3.4.3* Existing facilities shall not be required to be protected
 by an automatic fire-extinguishing system where acceptable
 to the authority having jurisdiction.
 6.3.4.4 The design of automatic sprinkler systems shall comply
 with the provisions of Chapter 12 of NFPA 13, Standard for
 the Installation of Sprinkler Systems, for Group A Plastics stored
 on solid shelves.
 6.3.5* An approved water supply shall be provided within
 100 ft (30 m) of the pier/land intersection or fire department
 connection serving fire protection systems.
 6.3.6 Access between water supplies and pier/land intersections
 or fire department connections shall be by roadway acceptable
 to the authority having jurisdiction.

 Craig L. Prahl, CET
 Fire Protection Specialist
 Mechanical Department
 CH2MHILL
 Lockwood Greene
 1500 International Drive
 Spartanburg, SC  29304-0491
 Direct - 864.599.4102
 Fax - 864.599.8439
 craig.pr...@ch2m.com
 http://www.ch2m.com


 -Original Message-
 From: sprinklerforum-boun...@firesprinkler.org
 [mailto:sprinklerforum-boun...@firesprinkler.org] On Behalf Of tom
  
 poisal
  
 Sent: Monday, May 03, 2010 4:03 PM
 To: sprinklerforum
 Subject: boat storage

 Ii have a in rack boat storage facility, 4 stories, I am thinking
  
 that
  
 ESFR
 16.8 for 12 spkrs however I am not sure what to use as a density, flr
  
 to
  
 flr
 is 20' - 4 racks per floor, just go for the rated flow/psi per head ?
 Tom Poisal, CET
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Re: boat storage

[Matthew J. Willis]

Well said Mr. Foster,

I worked Extensively on one of these with another member of our forum. It is 
a daunting task. There is NO compliant 13 system. NONE!. If it irks you 
Tom to run, then design it and good luck. As you can tell, the consensus of 
this forum, (many of whom are way smarter than me) say stay away. You asked 
the opinion, do not shoot the messengers.

R/
Matt

- Original Message - 
From: den1 d...@global-fire.com
To: sprinklerforum@firesprinkler.org
Sent: Tuesday, May 04, 2010 7:45 AM
Subject: Re: boat storage


I stand by my response to run. This isn't horseshoes and hand grenades.
You don't get a gold star for almost controlling the fire based on a
questionable design. The response below objecting to the sprinklers
below the keels is part of the problem. You can't realistically design a
sprinkler system that you would expect to work if you plan to move the
rack shelves (without having the sprinkler contractor adjust the
piping). The owner is going to have to decide how many big slips and how
many small slips he needs and reconfigure later if needs change. The
reason I will not design protection for one of these boat racks is that
I don't think there is an adequate body of knowledge due to the lack of
testing to specify a credible level of protection. Everyone on this
forum seems to acknowledge this much yet they may march right into
trying to do something to appease and owner.

I see designers using sidewall sprinklers, sprinklers under the
horizontal 3 inch wide framing  between boats and a whole lot of other
less than professional designs that I never expect to work. Sometimes it
is far better to walk away from a job than to do something half ass and
with a blind eye to the deficiencies. Just remember if you design one of
these buildings and it burns down, you WILL get sued and the owner's
lawyers WILL hire an FPE to testify against your design. Without
something to back you up you have no protection. Design them if you want
the money, now but be prepared to give it back later. The alternative is
to wait until the NFPA Research Foundation gets the money to sponsor the
full scale testing that has been proposed. Good Luck

Brian R. Foster, F.P.E., CFSI,
President
Registered in: FL, GA, IN, MS, NC, TX, VA and WI
GLOBAL FIRE ENGINEERING, INC.
8450 Linger Lodge Rd.
Bradenton, FL 34202
P: 941-758-2551
F: 941-739-6383
C: 941-928-8138
_
Additional Office:
   Murphy, NC - (828)837-2551






tom poisal wrote:
 okay Todd so today, what do I do?

 On Mon, May 3, 2010 at 7:45 PM, Todd Williamst...@fpdc.com  wrote:


 The big problem is that we do not know what will work.  If you design
 a system based on what you think is best without actually knowing
 what will work, you are opening yourself up to a huge liability
 problem if there ever is a fire. Run is not running away from the
 problem, it's running away from the liability. It's an occupancy that
 needs analysis, much like records storage did a few years ago (I
 guess pretty much resolved as of 2010 edition)



 At 07:02 PM 5/3/2010, you wrote:

 Brian, encouraging others to run as well  is hardly a professional
 response, your synopsis is relevant for an insurer, but I am asked to
 design a fire sprinkler protection system to reasonably protect a
 hazard, WHAT I should run? Give the owner a break and design a system
 as best as I can within the applicable codes, your self designed
 barrier of 3' width with K-17 or ELO heads is crazy where is the
 documentation for this, amounts for headaches for the owner whenever
 they move boats.  I guess it's a this is what we have deal,  deal with
 it...refusing to address a problem really irks meby the way you
 have so many disclaimers why would you care?  See FL Chapter 61G15-27,
 etc

 On 5/3/10, den1d...@global-fire.com  wrote:

 Here is my take on in-door boat storage marinas. Many of these
 structures reach 50 feet in height and have what amounts to multi-row
 rack storage of plastics containing flammable liquids. There has been

 no

 large scale fire testing (yet) and there is no way to apply NFPA 13 for
 a code compliant system without some type of performance based element.
 Here are the elements you have to deal with:

 1. High elevations that decrease sprinkler effectiveness
 2. Flammable liquids control when one boat drops on to those below
 3. Possible rack supported buildings and structural failure during a

 fire

 4. Possible drainage issues
 5. Most likely exposure issues around these buildings that limit fire
 department access
 6. Structural rack deformation due to overloading  by water filled

 boats

 (and don't think for a minute that the 3/4 plug in the hull is going

 to

 gravity drain all the water as fast as it comes in - especially when
 leaves, sandwich wrappers or other debris partially obstruct the hole.

 etc, etc.

 The best arrangement I have seen is to provide a Extra Hazard Group
 I density with an increased

RE: boat storage

[Thom McMahon]

I've tried to stay out of this since we seem to re-hash this every 6 months
or so.
For a RE-CAP of all our past discussion, let's start with: It's outside of
the scope of NFPA 13
Now your EOR didn't say comply with NFPA 13, he called for a NFPA compliant
system. So have him clarify what type of NFPA compliant system.
10,11,12,12A,14,15, 16,17 or 17A or possibly OTHER?
As a Layout Tech. and NOT a FPE your required to follow the guidance of
the engineer. But as the EOR, he's required to provide that guidance. So
your job is to make him do his job. (Let's not go into CET/SET vs. PE)

Since no really good study, where they burn down one of these structures has
been done yet, what we don't know still exceeds what we do know. Get the
ERO, AHJ, Owner and Insurance underwriter to tell you what they can all
agree on as appropriate protection in writing, and then you can do what they
explicitly direct you to do for a layout.

Otherwise just head to the bar, and stay there until you forget all about
this project. No need to run, but you should call a taxi, as we cannot
endorse unsafe behavior.

Thom McMahon, SET
Firetech, Inc.
2560 Copper Ridge Dr
P.O. Box 882136
Steamboat Springs, CO 80488
Tel:  970-879-7952
Fax: 970-879-7926


-Original Message-
From: sprinklerforum-boun...@firesprinkler.org
[mailto:sprinklerforum-boun...@firesprinkler.org] On Behalf Of tom poisal
Sent: Monday, May 03, 2010 6:43 PM
To: sprinklerforum@firesprinkler.org
Subject: Re: boat storage

okay Todd so today, what do I do?


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Re: boat storage

[ParsleyConsulting]

Tom,

I have to agree with my friend up in Steamboat Springs.  The information 
you've provided on the forum appears to be almost a textbook case of a 
disaster waiting to happen - for you.

Here are some conditions you've explained which would make he have no 
hesitation at all in turning down this project:

1 - the engineer of record has given you a boilerplate statement, 
follow NFPA.  There is no specific NFPA guidance so the engineer has 
both not done their job in determining that information, and in not 
developing a protection design that they will stand behind with THEIR 
errors and omissions insurance when the codes and standards don't cover 
the configuration and commodity.  The last time I looked at my own 
certification from NICET, it didn't entitle me to make that sort of 
decision, however the laws may be different where you are.

2 - you're discussing utilizing ESFR sprinklers, which have very 
specific, narrow, and rigid listings for design and installation.  
Nothing I've seen in any listing data from three manufacturers, Tyco, 
Viking, and Reliable, seems to even remotely suggest that they 
manufacture ESFR's which are listed for rack storage of boats as you 
describe.  If you were to design such a system with ESFR's you are 
asking for them to be installed outside of the listing, meaning the 
manufacturer won't stand behind it when it gets to court.  Now, you've 
not only accepted the responsibility of the engineer of record, but the 
liability of the manufacturer as well.  That's two pretty huge lead 
weights to carry on your back.

3 - without testing or language from a code or standard to support your 
approach to this storage configuration you're making a guess as to what 
will work to control a fire in a very challenging environment without 
anything to support your conclusions.  If you don't have fire test or 
modeling done to test your theories of whether or not your approach has 
any chance of controlling such a fire, you're in effect acting as an 
engineer without being licensed or registered to do so.  I don't know 
about where you live, but here in California that's a huge violation of 
existing law. 

Oh, one other minor note, and I don't mention this to split hairs, but 
in one of your earlier posts you mentioned density when you were 
talking about ESFR sprinklers.  As I'm sure you know, density has 
nothing to do with ESFR technology.

Here's hoping you decide to pass on this project unless you get specific 
guidance from the EOR.

In summary, if this molten spud were dumped in my lap, I'd dump it right 
back, and drive straight to the bar with Thom McMahon.  And if you join 
us, I'll buy the first round.
-- 
PARSLEY CONSULTING
Ken Wagoner, SET
760.745.6181 voice
760.745.0537 fax
parsleyconsult...@cox.net mailto:parsleyconsult...@cox.net e-mail
www.ParsleyConsulting.com http://www.ParsleyConsulting.com website

 -Original Message-
 From: sprinklerforum-boun...@firesprinkler.org
 [mailto:sprinklerforum-boun...@firesprinkler.org] On Behalf Of tom poisal
 Sent: Monday, May 03, 2010 6:43 PM
 To: sprinklerforum@firesprinkler.org
 Subject: Re: boat storage

 okay Todd so today, what do I do?
   
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RE: boat storage

[George Church]

Those thinking Thom and Ken having a drink together would be interesting to
watch, not to mention the ensuing conversation, might be interested in
knowing that it is likely to occur in the Providence, RI area in early
October. Coincidently, that's the AFSA Convention. And if you think they
might talk about fellow forumites and enjoy looking back at Chris's test
oven and other interesting events over the past year, you're absolutely
correct.

Come defend your honor from those that would make fun of you in your
absence- come to the AFSA Convention and we'll make fun of each other in
person and have a good time- while earning CEU credits and making new
friends, seeing new products, and avoiding letting Thom drive to the go-kart
track(he did, in his defense, flick the wheel at the last second and avoid
killing his PE wife, the Sornsin brothers, our resident 14 expert who got
the fastest lap award, a MI homebuilder and yours truly). 

It's certainly an annual event for a lot of us. Come see why!

glc

-Original Message-
From: sprinklerforum-boun...@firesprinkler.org
[mailto:sprinklerforum-boun...@firesprinkler.org] On Behalf Of
ParsleyConsulting
Sent: Tuesday, May 04, 2010 1:37 PM
To: sprinklerforum@firesprinkler.org
Subject: Re: boat storage

Tom,

I have to agree with my friend up in Steamboat Springs.  The information 
you've provided on the forum appears to be almost a textbook case of a 
disaster waiting to happen - for you.

Here are some conditions you've explained which would make he have no 
hesitation at all in turning down this project:

1 - the engineer of record has given you a boilerplate statement, 
follow NFPA.  There is no specific NFPA guidance so the engineer has 
both not done their job in determining that information, and in not 
developing a protection design that they will stand behind with THEIR 
errors and omissions insurance when the codes and standards don't cover 
the configuration and commodity.  The last time I looked at my own 
certification from NICET, it didn't entitle me to make that sort of 
decision, however the laws may be different where you are.

2 - you're discussing utilizing ESFR sprinklers, which have very 
specific, narrow, and rigid listings for design and installation.  
Nothing I've seen in any listing data from three manufacturers, Tyco, 
Viking, and Reliable, seems to even remotely suggest that they 
manufacture ESFR's which are listed for rack storage of boats as you 
describe.  If you were to design such a system with ESFR's you are 
asking for them to be installed outside of the listing, meaning the 
manufacturer won't stand behind it when it gets to court.  Now, you've 
not only accepted the responsibility of the engineer of record, but the 
liability of the manufacturer as well.  That's two pretty huge lead 
weights to carry on your back.

3 - without testing or language from a code or standard to support your 
approach to this storage configuration you're making a guess as to what 
will work to control a fire in a very challenging environment without 
anything to support your conclusions.  If you don't have fire test or 
modeling done to test your theories of whether or not your approach has 
any chance of controlling such a fire, you're in effect acting as an 
engineer without being licensed or registered to do so.  I don't know 
about where you live, but here in California that's a huge violation of 
existing law. 

Oh, one other minor note, and I don't mention this to split hairs, but 
in one of your earlier posts you mentioned density when you were 
talking about ESFR sprinklers.  As I'm sure you know, density has 
nothing to do with ESFR technology.

Here's hoping you decide to pass on this project unless you get specific 
guidance from the EOR.

In summary, if this molten spud were dumped in my lap, I'd dump it right 
back, and drive straight to the bar with Thom McMahon.  And if you join 
us, I'll buy the first round.
-- 
PARSLEY CONSULTING
Ken Wagoner, SET
760.745.6181 voice
760.745.0537 fax
parsleyconsult...@cox.net mailto:parsleyconsult...@cox.net e-mail
www.ParsleyConsulting.com http://www.ParsleyConsulting.com website

 -Original Message-
 From: sprinklerforum-boun...@firesprinkler.org
 [mailto:sprinklerforum-boun...@firesprinkler.org] On Behalf Of tom poisal
 Sent: Monday, May 03, 2010 6:43 PM
 To: sprinklerforum@firesprinkler.org
 Subject: Re: boat storage

 okay Todd so today, what do I do?
   
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RE: boat storage

[Thom McMahon]

It would be less risky to just go ahead and post all of your credit cards,
with verifier #'s plus your driver's Lic. and Social #'s here on the forum.
Your potential loss would be far less, and at least you'd be helping
someone.

If Scott is offering to help design this thing, take him up on it. I'd love
to know what you all would end up doing. Now there would be some fodder for
the forum. 

Thom McMahon, SET
Firetech, Inc.
2560 Copper Ridge Dr
P.O. Box 882136
Steamboat Springs, CO 80488
Tel:  970-879-7952
Fax: 970-879-7926



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RE: boat storage

[Thom McMahon]

While I may not have been fastest on the track, due as we have discussed, to
the lack of weight based handicapping. You'll never forget the ride to the
track!

Anyone for RI boat racing? 

George is right, you'll never know what you've missed, if you don't attend.

Thom McMahon, SET
Firetech, Inc.
2560 Copper Ridge Dr
P.O. Box 882136
Steamboat Springs, CO 80488
Tel:  970-879-7952
Fax: 970-879-7926




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RE: boat storage

[Matt Grise]

My understanding of boat rack fires (not a huge volume of knowledge) is that 
they can be successfully controlled/suppressed by systems that are designed to 
handle an equivalent storage of group a plastics...but that the racks generally 
collapse because the boats fill with water. Even when boats are wrapped or 
covered, the covers burn off quickly enough, and it only takes one boat-load(ha 
ha) of water to bring a hot rack down. (bob kaputo and james lake hit on this 
topic at the conference last year)

I liked the idea of a vortex system. I saw a pretty cool presentation about 
those this week. They hardly use any water and don't have trouble with 
obstructions. A high-expansion foam system would probably do the trick too... 
if you don't mind a huge-normous up front cost of installation.

And yes, in my professional opinion, huge-normous is a legitimate description 
of the cost. 

Matt Grisé PE*, LEED AP 
Sales Engineer 
Alliance Fire Protection 
*Licensed in KS  MO 

913.888.0647 ph 
913.888.0618 f 
913.927.0222 cell 
www. AFPsprink.com 


-Original Message-
From: sprinklerforum-boun...@firesprinkler.org 
[mailto:sprinklerforum-boun...@firesprinkler.org] On Behalf Of Thom McMahon
Sent: Tuesday, May 04, 2010 12:54 PM
To: sprinklerforum@firesprinkler.org
Subject: RE: boat storage

It would be less risky to just go ahead and post all of your credit cards,
with verifier #'s plus your driver's Lic. and Social #'s here on the forum.
Your potential loss would be far less, and at least you'd be helping
someone.

If Scott is offering to help design this thing, take him up on it. I'd love
to know what you all would end up doing. Now there would be some fodder for
the forum. 

Thom McMahon, SET
Firetech, Inc.
2560 Copper Ridge Dr
P.O. Box 882136
Steamboat Springs, CO 80488
Tel:  970-879-7952
Fax: 970-879-7926



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Re: boat storage

[Ron Greenman]

Scot,

I think the statement that density has nothing to do with EFSR was in
the same context that it has nothing to do with residential heads.
Densities are built into the listings rather than picked from a A/D
chart.

On Tue, May 4, 2010 at 10:58 AM, Thom McMahon tmcma...@firetechinc.com wrote:
 While I may not have been fastest on the track, due as we have discussed, to
 the lack of weight based handicapping. You'll never forget the ride to the
 track!

 Anyone for RI boat racing?

 George is right, you'll never know what you've missed, if you don't attend.

 Thom McMahon, SET
 Firetech, Inc.
 2560 Copper Ridge Dr
 P.O. Box 882136
 Steamboat Springs, CO 80488
 Tel:  970-879-7952
 Fax: 970-879-7926




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-- 
Ron Greenman
Instructor
Fire Protection Engineering
Bates Technical College
Tacoma, WA

Member:
AFT WA 4184/AFL-CIO, SFPE, ASCET, NFPA, AFSA, NFSA AFAA, NIBS, WSAFM, WFC
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RE: boat storage

[George Church]

I liked how matter-of-fact Dave Sornsin was noting the near-miss.
Um, guys, did anyone else notice what just about happened?

Guess if u jump outa airplanes every chance you get, riding with Thom isn't
as exciting.
And I know of two Forumites that have driven Thoms (noreen's?) Z5.

You driving to RI?

-Original Message-
From: sprinklerforum-boun...@firesprinkler.org
[mailto:sprinklerforum-boun...@firesprinkler.org] On Behalf Of Thom McMahon
Sent: Tuesday, May 04, 2010 1:58 PM
To: sprinklerforum@firesprinkler.org
Subject: RE: boat storage

While I may not have been fastest on the track, due as we have discussed, to
the lack of weight based handicapping. You'll never forget the ride to the
track!

Anyone for RI boat racing? 

George is right, you'll never know what you've missed, if you don't attend.

Thom McMahon, SET
Firetech, Inc.
2560 Copper Ridge Dr
P.O. Box 882136
Steamboat Springs, CO 80488
Tel:  970-879-7952
Fax: 970-879-7926




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RE: boat storage

[Craig.Prahl]

I thought the point the writer was trying to make was that ESFR systems are not 
calculated or designed based on the area/density method.

Maybe for boat storage you should use those dry sprinkler systems that don't 
use any water at all, hmmm, how do you calculate those again?   grin



Craig L. Prahl, CET   
Fire Protection Specialist
Mechanical Department
CH2MHILL
Lockwood Greene
1500 International Drive
Spartanburg, SC  29304-0491
Direct - 864.599.4102
Fax - 864.599.8439
craig.pr...@ch2m.com
http://www.ch2m.com 


-Original Message-
From: sprinklerforum-boun...@firesprinkler.org 
[mailto:sprinklerforum-boun...@firesprinkler.org] On Behalf Of å... 
Sent: Tuesday, May 04, 2010 1:58 PM
To: sprinklerforum@firesprinkler.org
Subject: boat storage

do we think fires in group A plastics, bin-box storage-on-racks,
are going to ignore whether a sprinkler is putting
out 0.495 gpm/ft2 versus 0.97 gpm/ft2?

I am sure the statement that density has nothing to do with
ESFR technology was meant in some connotation
that is lost on me, similar to how I missed the denotation
in the statement from 20 to 15 bar on the fire pump thread.
I am not picking on the person here.  Least
I am TRYING not to.  Just seemed like a statement that
needed clarification... if density has nothing to do with
ESFR technology, then how come their orifice is so big? ;-)

ESFR's may be tabled in the Standard based on discharge
pressure, but truth is, at the relatively high pressures that ESFR's
are discharging at (high pressures relative to SS), it is  not the pressure
that is
determining the tenor of the conversation with the fire, (all
ESFR's are yelling at the fire), it is the density.

 ESFR technology is based on too things:  early, and lots.
 the lots gots to do with density.


i think the statement that density has nothing to do with ESFR
  technology is defying some law or laws of physics
  and some conservation equations.  fires recognize sprinkler water density.
  and it very much is a deciding factor as to whether we send Mr. Fire home
  before the red truck rolls up.

scot deal
excelsior fire engineering
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Re: boat storage

[Ron Greenman]

And a CAF system might work but when talking about CAF, Vortex or Hi-X
the operative term is might. Is their an engineer willing to bet on it
and is there a NICET tech stupid enough to do engineering? Probably
yes to both but not me.

On Tue, May 4, 2010 at 11:11 AM, Matt Grise m...@afpsprink.com wrote:
 My understanding of boat rack fires (not a huge volume of knowledge) is that 
 they can be successfully controlled/suppressed by systems that are designed 
 to handle an equivalent storage of group a plastics...but that the racks 
 generally collapse because the boats fill with water. Even when boats are 
 wrapped or covered, the covers burn off quickly enough, and it only takes one 
 boat-load(ha ha) of water to bring a hot rack down. (bob kaputo and james 
 lake hit on this topic at the conference last year)

 I liked the idea of a vortex system. I saw a pretty cool presentation about 
 those this week. They hardly use any water and don't have trouble with 
 obstructions. A high-expansion foam system would probably do the trick too... 
 if you don't mind a huge-normous up front cost of installation.

 And yes, in my professional opinion, huge-normous is a legitimate 
 description of the cost.

 Matt Grisé PE*, LEED AP
 Sales Engineer
 Alliance Fire Protection
 *Licensed in KS  MO

 913.888.0647 ph
 913.888.0618 f
 913.927.0222 cell
 www. AFPsprink.com


 -Original Message-
 From: sprinklerforum-boun...@firesprinkler.org 
 [mailto:sprinklerforum-boun...@firesprinkler.org] On Behalf Of Thom McMahon
 Sent: Tuesday, May 04, 2010 12:54 PM
 To: sprinklerforum@firesprinkler.org
 Subject: RE: boat storage

 It would be less risky to just go ahead and post all of your credit cards,
 with verifier #'s plus your driver's Lic. and Social #'s here on the forum.
 Your potential loss would be far less, and at least you'd be helping
 someone.

 If Scott is offering to help design this thing, take him up on it. I'd love
 to know what you all would end up doing. Now there would be some fodder for
 the forum.

 Thom McMahon, SET
 Firetech, Inc.
 2560 Copper Ridge Dr
 P.O. Box 882136
 Steamboat Springs, CO 80488
 Tel:  970-879-7952
 Fax: 970-879-7926



 ___
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-- 
Ron Greenman
Instructor
Fire Protection Engineering
Bates Technical College
Tacoma, WA

Member:
AFT WA 4184/AFL-CIO, SFPE, ASCET, NFPA, AFSA, NFSA AFAA, NIBS, WSAFM, WFC
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RE: boat storage

[Craig.Prahl]

Biggest issue with HEF is that you'd have to have a way to contain the foam 
within the space.  Since most of these structures are open, the HEF would just 
float out of the building.

Honestly of all the options Vortex might be one of the best choices, it doesn't 
require containment like gaseous systems, environmentally friendly, uses small 
quantities of water (minimize collapse potential).  But it really needs some 
testing to be proven.  Has good application for flammables and combustibles, 
not sure about how it would react against plastics but based on the mechanics 
and chemistry of the system, it would seem to have potential.

Craig L. Prahl, CET   
Fire Protection Specialist
Mechanical Department
CH2MHILL
Lockwood Greene
1500 International Drive
Spartanburg, SC  29304-0491
Direct - 864.599.4102
Fax - 864.599.8439
craig.pr...@ch2m.com
http://www.ch2m.com 


-Original Message-
From: sprinklerforum-boun...@firesprinkler.org 
[mailto:sprinklerforum-boun...@firesprinkler.org] On Behalf Of Matt Grise
Sent: Tuesday, May 04, 2010 2:12 PM
To: 'sprinklerforum@firesprinkler.org'
Subject: RE: boat storage

My understanding of boat rack fires (not a huge volume of knowledge) is that 
they can be successfully controlled/suppressed by systems that are designed to 
handle an equivalent storage of group a plastics...but that the racks generally 
collapse because the boats fill with water. Even when boats are wrapped or 
covered, the covers burn off quickly enough, and it only takes one boat-load(ha 
ha) of water to bring a hot rack down. (bob kaputo and james lake hit on this 
topic at the conference last year)

I liked the idea of a vortex system. I saw a pretty cool presentation about 
those this week. They hardly use any water and don't have trouble with 
obstructions. A high-expansion foam system would probably do the trick too... 
if you don't mind a huge-normous up front cost of installation.

And yes, in my professional opinion, huge-normous is a legitimate description 
of the cost. 

Matt Grisé PE*, LEED AP 
Sales Engineer 
Alliance Fire Protection 
*Licensed in KS  MO 

913.888.0647 ph 
913.888.0618 f 
913.927.0222 cell 
www. AFPsprink.com 


-Original Message-
From: sprinklerforum-boun...@firesprinkler.org 
[mailto:sprinklerforum-boun...@firesprinkler.org] On Behalf Of Thom McMahon
Sent: Tuesday, May 04, 2010 12:54 PM
To: sprinklerforum@firesprinkler.org
Subject: RE: boat storage

It would be less risky to just go ahead and post all of your credit cards,
with verifier #'s plus your driver's Lic. and Social #'s here on the forum.
Your potential loss would be far less, and at least you'd be helping
someone.

If Scott is offering to help design this thing, take him up on it. I'd love
to know what you all would end up doing. Now there would be some fodder for
the forum. 

Thom McMahon, SET
Firetech, Inc.
2560 Copper Ridge Dr
P.O. Box 882136
Steamboat Springs, CO 80488
Tel:  970-879-7952
Fax: 970-879-7926



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RE: boat storage

[Chris Cahill]

Scot and Thom are both right.  ESFR design and installation has nothing to
do with density.  At 100 sq.ft. you have the same design as 64 sq.ft. thus
density has nothing to do with ESFR. Scot is applying the science of ADD
(actual delivery density) and RDD (required delivered density) and is
correct if the ADD is less than the RDD the fire doesn't get controlled or
suppressed.  

Now Scot you also forgot a couple things in your list of two.  Lots in it
self is good but not the complete answer.  Droplet size and velocity are a
critical component in high challenge fires.  You can throw an ESFR link in
an SSP with lots of water and get spectacular failures where ESFR is
successful because the drops are bigger and they spray down almost like a FF
nozzle.   

Chris Cahill, P.E.
Fire Protection Engineer
Sentry Fire Protection, Inc.
 
763-658-4483
763-658-4921 fax
 
Email: chr...@sentryfiremn.com
 
Mail: P.O. Box 69
Waverly, MN 55390
 
Location: 4439 Hwy 12 SW
  Waverly, MN 55390
-Original Message-
From: sprinklerforum-boun...@firesprinkler.org
[mailto:sprinklerforum-boun...@firesprinkler.org] On Behalf Of å... 
Sent: Tuesday, May 04, 2010 12:58 PM
To: sprinklerforum@firesprinkler.org
Subject: boat storage

do we think fires in group A plastics, bin-box storage-on-racks,
are going to ignore whether a sprinkler is putting
out 0.495 gpm/ft2 versus 0.97 gpm/ft2?

I am sure the statement that density has nothing to do with
ESFR technology was meant in some connotation
that is lost on me, similar to how I missed the denotation
in the statement from 20 to 15 bar on the fire pump thread.
I am not picking on the person here.  Least
I am TRYING not to.  Just seemed like a statement that
needed clarification... if density has nothing to do with
ESFR technology, then how come their orifice is so big? ;-)

ESFR's may be tabled in the Standard based on discharge
pressure, but truth is, at the relatively high pressures that ESFR's
are discharging at (high pressures relative to SS), it is  not the pressure
that is
determining the tenor of the conversation with the fire, (all
ESFR's are yelling at the fire), it is the density.

 ESFR technology is based on too things:  early, and lots.
 the lots gots to do with density.


i think the statement that density has nothing to do with ESFR
  technology is defying some law or laws of physics
  and some conservation equations.  fires recognize sprinkler water density.
  and it very much is a deciding factor as to whether we send Mr. Fire home
  before the red truck rolls up.

scot deal
excelsior fire engineering
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RE: boat storage

[Craig.Prahl]

Now Ron don't you know that once one has read the pamphlet or seen the video 
presentation, regardless of experience or degree they are wholly capable of 
specifying these systems for whatever type hazard they can think of?   Man, 
come on, that's what it means when the note says design an NFPA acceptable 
system.  It's just so easy...   We just over think everything ya know.

Craig L. Prahl, CET   
Fire Protection Specialist
Mechanical Department
CH2MHILL
Lockwood Greene
1500 International Drive
Spartanburg, SC  29304-0491
Direct - 864.599.4102
Fax - 864.599.8439
craig.pr...@ch2m.com
http://www.ch2m.com 


-Original Message-
From: sprinklerforum-boun...@firesprinkler.org 
[mailto:sprinklerforum-boun...@firesprinkler.org] On Behalf Of Ron Greenman
Sent: Tuesday, May 04, 2010 2:16 PM
To: sprinklerforum@firesprinkler.org
Subject: Re: boat storage

And a CAF system might work but when talking about CAF, Vortex or Hi-X
the operative term is might. Is their an engineer willing to bet on it
and is there a NICET tech stupid enough to do engineering? Probably
yes to both but not me.

On Tue, May 4, 2010 at 11:11 AM, Matt Grise m...@afpsprink.com wrote:
 My understanding of boat rack fires (not a huge volume of knowledge) is that 
 they can be successfully controlled/suppressed by systems that are designed 
 to handle an equivalent storage of group a plastics...but that the racks 
 generally collapse because the boats fill with water. Even when boats are 
 wrapped or covered, the covers burn off quickly enough, and it only takes one 
 boat-load(ha ha) of water to bring a hot rack down. (bob kaputo and james 
 lake hit on this topic at the conference last year)

 I liked the idea of a vortex system. I saw a pretty cool presentation about 
 those this week. They hardly use any water and don't have trouble with 
 obstructions. A high-expansion foam system would probably do the trick too... 
 if you don't mind a huge-normous up front cost of installation.

 And yes, in my professional opinion, huge-normous is a legitimate 
 description of the cost.

 Matt Grisé PE*, LEED AP
 Sales Engineer
 Alliance Fire Protection
 *Licensed in KS  MO

 913.888.0647 ph
 913.888.0618 f
 913.927.0222 cell
 www. AFPsprink.com


 -Original Message-
 From: sprinklerforum-boun...@firesprinkler.org 
 [mailto:sprinklerforum-boun...@firesprinkler.org] On Behalf Of Thom McMahon
 Sent: Tuesday, May 04, 2010 12:54 PM
 To: sprinklerforum@firesprinkler.org
 Subject: RE: boat storage

 It would be less risky to just go ahead and post all of your credit cards,
 with verifier #'s plus your driver's Lic. and Social #'s here on the forum.
 Your potential loss would be far less, and at least you'd be helping
 someone.

 If Scott is offering to help design this thing, take him up on it. I'd love
 to know what you all would end up doing. Now there would be some fodder for
 the forum.

 Thom McMahon, SET
 Firetech, Inc.
 2560 Copper Ridge Dr
 P.O. Box 882136
 Steamboat Springs, CO 80488
 Tel:  970-879-7952
 Fax: 970-879-7926



 ___
 Sprinklerforum mailing list
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-- 
Ron Greenman
Instructor
Fire Protection Engineering
Bates Technical College
Tacoma, WA

Member:
AFT WA 4184/AFL-CIO, SFPE, ASCET, NFPA, AFSA, NFSA AFAA, NIBS, WSAFM, WFC
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RE: boat storage

[Jim Davidson]

To all,

It appears that most sprinkler contractors like to gamble their lives away. 
Working with rack storage of boat requires working with end user and AHJ using 
detailed protection concepts. Most of the alternate fire extinguishing systems 
suggested such as CAF, High Ex Foam and Vortex systems as per the system's 
manufacturer who all state that their systems are not designed to protect rack 
storage of boats with fuel. So you have to find a system that the system 
manufacturer will support using to protect the boat storage. In trying to 
protect one of these buildings we tried all of the alternative systems and when 
asked to support the use of these systems in this type of storage  in writing 
all manufacturers stated that they have not tested the system with this type of 
storage and would not know how to develop a design to address the multiple 
hazards that boat rack storage presents. Also we must protect the rack 
structure since most of these buildings are support structurally by the racks. 
This is not the type of building that is protected to the minimum level of 
protection. 

This is similar to Pod type storage and is not addressed by NFPA 13 or NFPA 
303.

Suggest that you discuss you EO insurance coverage with your broker before you 
start one of these boat rack storage buildings. Some insurance policies require 
the insured to follow industry standard practice in order to insure conerage.   
 

A wealthy old time sprinkler contractor was asked how de he get so wealthy? He 
answered  A good contractor knows when to walk away from a project.

This might be one of these times when it is better to walk away.

And we have not started to address the requirements of the IBC yet.

Regards, 

Jim Davidson 
 
Davidson Associates 
Fire Protection * Medical Gas * Code Consulting  
302-994-9500   Fax:302-234-1781


-Original Message-
From: sprinklerforum-boun...@firesprinkler.org 
[mailto:sprinklerforum-boun...@firesprinkler.org] On Behalf Of 
craig.pr...@ch2m.com
Sent: Tuesday, May 04, 2010 2:31 PM
To: sprinklerforum@firesprinkler.org
Subject: RE: boat storage

Biggest issue with HEF is that you'd have to have a way to contain the foam 
within the space.  Since most of these structures are open, the HEF would just 
float out of the building.

Honestly of all the options Vortex might be one of the best choices, it doesn't 
require containment like gaseous systems, environmentally friendly, uses small 
quantities of water (minimize collapse potential).  But it really needs some 
testing to be proven.  Has good application for flammables and combustibles, 
not sure about how it would react against plastics but based on the mechanics 
and chemistry of the system, it would seem to have potential.

Craig L. Prahl, CET   
Fire Protection Specialist
Mechanical Department
CH2MHILL
Lockwood Greene
1500 International Drive
Spartanburg, SC  29304-0491
Direct - 864.599.4102
Fax - 864.599.8439
craig.pr...@ch2m.com
http://www.ch2m.com 


-Original Message-
From: sprinklerforum-boun...@firesprinkler.org 
[mailto:sprinklerforum-boun...@firesprinkler.org] On Behalf Of Matt Grise
Sent: Tuesday, May 04, 2010 2:12 PM
To: 'sprinklerforum@firesprinkler.org'
Subject: RE: boat storage

My understanding of boat rack fires (not a huge volume of knowledge) is that 
they can be successfully controlled/suppressed by systems that are designed to 
handle an equivalent storage of group a plastics...but that the racks generally 
collapse because the boats fill with water. Even when boats are wrapped or 
covered, the covers burn off quickly enough, and it only takes one boat-load(ha 
ha) of water to bring a hot rack down. (bob kaputo and james lake hit on this 
topic at the conference last year)

I liked the idea of a vortex system. I saw a pretty cool presentation about 
those this week. They hardly use any water and don't have trouble with 
obstructions. A high-expansion foam system would probably do the trick too... 
if you don't mind a huge-normous up front cost of installation.

And yes, in my professional opinion, huge-normous is a legitimate description 
of the cost. 

Matt Grisé PE*, LEED AP 
Sales Engineer 
Alliance Fire Protection 
*Licensed in KS  MO 

913.888.0647 ph 
913.888.0618 f 
913.927.0222 cell 
www. AFPsprink.com 


-Original Message-
From: sprinklerforum-boun...@firesprinkler.org 
[mailto:sprinklerforum-boun...@firesprinkler.org] On Behalf Of Thom McMahon
Sent: Tuesday, May 04, 2010 12:54 PM
To: sprinklerforum@firesprinkler.org
Subject: RE: boat storage

It would be less risky to just go ahead and post all of your credit cards,
with verifier #'s plus your driver's Lic. and Social #'s here on the forum.
Your potential loss would be far less, and at least you'd be helping
someone.

If Scott is offering to help design this thing, take him up on it. I'd love
to know what you all would end up doing. Now there would be some fodder for
the forum. 

Thom McMahon, SET
Firetech, Inc.
2560 Copper

Re: boat storage

[Ron Greenman]

I think we've been through this before. You should check the archives
but I think the consensus was 1. ESFR was not appropriate and 2. there
is no guideline for this situation. I think this is more of a 3D
hazard and water spray per 15 and an engineer are the appropriate
avenues.

On Mon, May 3, 2010 at 1:02 PM, tom poisal tspoi...@gmail.com wrote:
 Ii have a in rack boat storage facility, 4 stories, I am thinking that ESFR
 16.8 for 12 spkrs however I am not sure what to use as a density, flr to flr
 is 20' - 4 racks per floor, just go for the rated flow/psi per head ?
 Tom Poisal, CET
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-- 
Ron Greenman
Instructor
Fire Protection Engineering
Bates Technical College
Tacoma, WA

Member:
AFT WA 4184/AFL-CIO, SFPE, ASCET, NFPA, AFSA, NFSA AFAA, NIBS, WSAFM, WFC
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RE: boat storage

[Chris Cahill]

1. Search the forum there's plenty here that says it can't be done with any
scheme never mind ESFR.

2. I believe NFPA 13 actually says #1 now but I'm at a loss to find it.

3. Either way it's outside 13 and would require a PE. 

Chris Cahill, P.E.
Fire Protection Engineer
Sentry Fire Protection, Inc.
 
763-658-4483
763-658-4921 fax
 
Email: chr...@sentryfiremn.com
 
Mail: P.O. Box 69
Waverly, MN 55390
 
Location: 4439 Hwy 12 SW
  Waverly, MN 55390
-Original Message-
From: sprinklerforum-boun...@firesprinkler.org
[mailto:sprinklerforum-boun...@firesprinkler.org] On Behalf Of tom poisal
Sent: Monday, May 03, 2010 3:03 PM
To: sprinklerforum
Subject: boat storage

Ii have a in rack boat storage facility, 4 stories, I am thinking that ESFR
16.8 for 12 spkrs however I am not sure what to use as a density, flr to flr
is 20' - 4 racks per floor, just go for the rated flow/psi per head ?
Tom Poisal, CET
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RE: boat storage

[Chris Cahill]

There, found it, A.5.6, along with PODS, wonderful thing the index, duh. 

Chris Cahill, P.E.
Fire Protection Engineer
Sentry Fire Protection, Inc.
 
763-658-4483
763-658-4921 fax
 
Email: chr...@sentryfiremn.com
 
Mail: P.O. Box 69
Waverly, MN 55390
 
Location: 4439 Hwy 12 SW
  Waverly, MN 55390

-Original Message-
From: sprinklerforum-boun...@firesprinkler.org
[mailto:sprinklerforum-boun...@firesprinkler.org] On Behalf Of Chris Cahill
Sent: Monday, May 03, 2010 3:12 PM
To: sprinklerforum@firesprinkler.org
Subject: RE: boat storage

1. Search the forum there's plenty here that says it can't be done with any
scheme never mind ESFR.

2. I believe NFPA 13 actually says #1 now but I'm at a loss to find it.

3. Either way it's outside 13 and would require a PE. 

Chris Cahill, P.E.
Fire Protection Engineer
Sentry Fire Protection, Inc.
 
763-658-4483
763-658-4921 fax
 
Email: chr...@sentryfiremn.com
 
Mail: P.O. Box 69
Waverly, MN 55390
 
Location: 4439 Hwy 12 SW
  Waverly, MN 55390
-Original Message-
From: sprinklerforum-boun...@firesprinkler.org
[mailto:sprinklerforum-boun...@firesprinkler.org] On Behalf Of tom poisal
Sent: Monday, May 03, 2010 3:03 PM
To: sprinklerforum
Subject: boat storage

Ii have a in rack boat storage facility, 4 stories, I am thinking that ESFR
16.8 for 12 spkrs however I am not sure what to use as a density, flr to flr
is 20' - 4 racks per floor, just go for the rated flow/psi per head ?
Tom Poisal, CET
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RE: boat storage

[Matt Grise]

I have heard that the big problem with boats is that they act like open top 
containers, will with water and collapse racks (squash fire crews).

Matt Grisé PE*, LEED AP 
Sales Engineer 
Alliance Fire Protection 
*Licensed in KS  MO 

913.888.0647 ph 
913.888.0618 f 
913.927.0222 cell 
www. AFPsprink.com 


-Original Message-
From: sprinklerforum-boun...@firesprinkler.org 
[mailto:sprinklerforum-boun...@firesprinkler.org] On Behalf Of tom poisal
Sent: Monday, May 03, 2010 3:03 PM
To: sprinklerforum
Subject: boat storage

Ii have a in rack boat storage facility, 4 stories, I am thinking that ESFR
16.8 for 12 spkrs however I am not sure what to use as a density, flr to flr
is 20' - 4 racks per floor, just go for the rated flow/psi per head ?
Tom Poisal, CET
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RE: boat storage

[Todd Williams]

There are a lot of considerations with this occupancy and it is 
outside of 13 right now. One of the things to shoot down the ESFR 
application is that boats filling with water can create a structural 
problem. The Fire Protection Research Foundation published a study on 
this. Their result was that fire testing needed to be done to 
determine what kind of protection is needed. (as a collector and 
restorer of classic fiberglass runabouts, I want to review any boats 
to be sacrificed for historical significance.)  Like everyone else 
says, best to have it engineered and probably a whole fire protection 
program developed.


At 04:12 PM 5/3/2010, you wrote:
1. Search the forum there's plenty here that says it can't be done with any
scheme never mind ESFR.

2. I believe NFPA 13 actually says #1 now but I'm at a loss to find it.

3. Either way it's outside 13 and would require a PE.

Chris Cahill, P.E.
Fire Protection Engineer
Sentry Fire Protection, Inc.

763-658-4483
763-658-4921 fax

Email: chr...@sentryfiremn.com

Mail: P.O. Box 69
 Waverly, MN 55390

Location: 4439 Hwy 12 SW
   Waverly, MN 55390
-Original Message-
From: sprinklerforum-boun...@firesprinkler.org
[mailto:sprinklerforum-boun...@firesprinkler.org] On Behalf Of tom poisal
Sent: Monday, May 03, 2010 3:03 PM
To: sprinklerforum
Subject: boat storage

Ii have a in rack boat storage facility, 4 stories, I am thinking that ESFR
16.8 for 12 spkrs however I am not sure what to use as a density, flr to flr
is 20' - 4 racks per floor, just go for the rated flow/psi per head ?
Tom Poisal, CET
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Todd G. Williams, PE
Fire Protection Design/Consulting
Stonington, CT
860.535.2080
www.fpdc.com

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RE: boat storage

[Craig.Prahl]

Check in NFPA 303 also.  303 has supposedly equated racked boat storage to 
group A plastics storage as referenced in NFPA 13.  

Other options include water mist and Hybrid water based inert gas systems 
(Vortex).  

NFPA 303, 2006
6.3.4 Indoor Rack Storage.
6.3.4.1* Where boats are stored on multilevel racks in buildings,
an approved automatic fire-extinguishing system shall be
installed throughout the building unless otherwise permitted
by 6.3.4.2 or 6.3.4.3.
6.3.4.2 An automatic fire-extinguishing system shall not be
required for buildings less than 5000 ft2 (465 m2) having multilevel
racks where provided with one of the following:
(1) An automatic fire detection and alarm system supervised
by a central station complying with NFPA 72, National Fire
Alarm Code
(2) An automatic fire detection and alarm system supervised
by a local protective signaling system complying with
NFPA 72, National Fire Alarm Code, if the provisions of
6.3.4.2(1) are not technically feasible
(3) A full-time watch service if the provisions of 6.3.4.2(1) are
not technically feasible
6.3.4.3* Existing facilities shall not be required to be protected
by an automatic fire-extinguishing system where acceptable
to the authority having jurisdiction.
6.3.4.4 The design of automatic sprinkler systems shall comply
with the provisions of Chapter 12 of NFPA 13, Standard for
the Installation of Sprinkler Systems, for Group A Plastics stored
on solid shelves.
6.3.5* An approved water supply shall be provided within
100 ft (30 m) of the pier/land intersection or fire department
connection serving fire protection systems.
6.3.6 Access between water supplies and pier/land intersections
or fire department connections shall be by roadway acceptable
to the authority having jurisdiction.

Craig L. Prahl, CET   
Fire Protection Specialist
Mechanical Department
CH2MHILL
Lockwood Greene
1500 International Drive
Spartanburg, SC  29304-0491
Direct - 864.599.4102
Fax - 864.599.8439
craig.pr...@ch2m.com
http://www.ch2m.com 


-Original Message-
From: sprinklerforum-boun...@firesprinkler.org 
[mailto:sprinklerforum-boun...@firesprinkler.org] On Behalf Of tom poisal
Sent: Monday, May 03, 2010 4:03 PM
To: sprinklerforum
Subject: boat storage

Ii have a in rack boat storage facility, 4 stories, I am thinking that ESFR
16.8 for 12 spkrs however I am not sure what to use as a density, flr to flr
is 20' - 4 racks per floor, just go for the rated flow/psi per head ?
Tom Poisal, CET
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RE: boat storage

[Richardson, R]

Be leery of NFPA 303, last time I checked that standard still specified a 
largely useless standpipe system for piers.  The standard requires a class III 
standpipe at some length but allows the supply pipe to be sized to class II.  
In other words largely useless for most fire depts..

Rich Richardson
Seattle Fire Department

-Original Message-
From: sprinklerforum-boun...@firesprinkler.org 
[mailto:sprinklerforum-boun...@firesprinkler.org] On Behalf Of 
craig.pr...@ch2m.com
Sent: Monday, May 03, 2010 14:14
To: sprinklerforum@firesprinkler.org
Subject: RE: boat storage

Check in NFPA 303 also.  303 has supposedly equated racked boat storage to 
group A plastics storage as referenced in NFPA 13.  

Other options include water mist and Hybrid water based inert gas systems 
(Vortex).  

NFPA 303, 2006
6.3.4 Indoor Rack Storage.
6.3.4.1* Where boats are stored on multilevel racks in buildings,
an approved automatic fire-extinguishing system shall be
installed throughout the building unless otherwise permitted
by 6.3.4.2 or 6.3.4.3.
6.3.4.2 An automatic fire-extinguishing system shall not be
required for buildings less than 5000 ft2 (465 m2) having multilevel
racks where provided with one of the following:
(1) An automatic fire detection and alarm system supervised
by a central station complying with NFPA 72, National Fire
Alarm Code
(2) An automatic fire detection and alarm system supervised
by a local protective signaling system complying with
NFPA 72, National Fire Alarm Code, if the provisions of
6.3.4.2(1) are not technically feasible
(3) A full-time watch service if the provisions of 6.3.4.2(1) are
not technically feasible
6.3.4.3* Existing facilities shall not be required to be protected
by an automatic fire-extinguishing system where acceptable
to the authority having jurisdiction.
6.3.4.4 The design of automatic sprinkler systems shall comply
with the provisions of Chapter 12 of NFPA 13, Standard for
the Installation of Sprinkler Systems, for Group A Plastics stored
on solid shelves.
6.3.5* An approved water supply shall be provided within
100 ft (30 m) of the pier/land intersection or fire department
connection serving fire protection systems.
6.3.6 Access between water supplies and pier/land intersections
or fire department connections shall be by roadway acceptable
to the authority having jurisdiction.

Craig L. Prahl, CET   
Fire Protection Specialist
Mechanical Department
CH2MHILL
Lockwood Greene
1500 International Drive
Spartanburg, SC  29304-0491
Direct - 864.599.4102
Fax - 864.599.8439
craig.pr...@ch2m.com
http://www.ch2m.com 


-Original Message-
From: sprinklerforum-boun...@firesprinkler.org 
[mailto:sprinklerforum-boun...@firesprinkler.org] On Behalf Of tom poisal
Sent: Monday, May 03, 2010 4:03 PM
To: sprinklerforum
Subject: boat storage

Ii have a in rack boat storage facility, 4 stories, I am thinking that ESFR
16.8 for 12 spkrs however I am not sure what to use as a density, flr to flr
is 20' - 4 racks per floor, just go for the rated flow/psi per head ?
Tom Poisal, CET
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Re: boat storage

[tom poisal]

the E.O.R. emphatically states install a NFPA compliant system

On 5/3/10, Richardson, R r.richard...@seattle.gov wrote:
 Be leery of NFPA 303, last time I checked that standard still specified a
 largely useless standpipe system for piers.  The standard requires a class
 III standpipe at some length but allows the supply pipe to be sized to class
 II.  In other words largely useless for most fire depts..

 Rich Richardson
 Seattle Fire Department

 -Original Message-
 From: sprinklerforum-boun...@firesprinkler.org
 [mailto:sprinklerforum-boun...@firesprinkler.org] On Behalf Of
 craig.pr...@ch2m.com
 Sent: Monday, May 03, 2010 14:14
 To: sprinklerforum@firesprinkler.org
 Subject: RE: boat storage

 Check in NFPA 303 also.  303 has supposedly equated racked boat storage to
 group A plastics storage as referenced in NFPA 13.

 Other options include water mist and Hybrid water based inert gas systems
 (Vortex).

 NFPA 303, 2006
 6.3.4 Indoor Rack Storage.
 6.3.4.1* Where boats are stored on multilevel racks in buildings,
 an approved automatic fire-extinguishing system shall be
 installed throughout the building unless otherwise permitted
 by 6.3.4.2 or 6.3.4.3.
 6.3.4.2 An automatic fire-extinguishing system shall not be
 required for buildings less than 5000 ft2 (465 m2) having multilevel
 racks where provided with one of the following:
 (1) An automatic fire detection and alarm system supervised
 by a central station complying with NFPA 72, National Fire
 Alarm Code
 (2) An automatic fire detection and alarm system supervised
 by a local protective signaling system complying with
 NFPA 72, National Fire Alarm Code, if the provisions of
 6.3.4.2(1) are not technically feasible
 (3) A full-time watch service if the provisions of 6.3.4.2(1) are
 not technically feasible
 6.3.4.3* Existing facilities shall not be required to be protected
 by an automatic fire-extinguishing system where acceptable
 to the authority having jurisdiction.
 6.3.4.4 The design of automatic sprinkler systems shall comply
 with the provisions of Chapter 12 of NFPA 13, Standard for
 the Installation of Sprinkler Systems, for Group A Plastics stored
 on solid shelves.
 6.3.5* An approved water supply shall be provided within
 100 ft (30 m) of the pier/land intersection or fire department
 connection serving fire protection systems.
 6.3.6 Access between water supplies and pier/land intersections
 or fire department connections shall be by roadway acceptable
 to the authority having jurisdiction.

 Craig L. Prahl, CET
 Fire Protection Specialist
 Mechanical Department
 CH2MHILL
 Lockwood Greene
 1500 International Drive
 Spartanburg, SC  29304-0491
 Direct - 864.599.4102
 Fax - 864.599.8439
 craig.pr...@ch2m.com
 http://www.ch2m.com


 -Original Message-
 From: sprinklerforum-boun...@firesprinkler.org
 [mailto:sprinklerforum-boun...@firesprinkler.org] On Behalf Of tom poisal
 Sent: Monday, May 03, 2010 4:03 PM
 To: sprinklerforum
 Subject: boat storage

 Ii have a in rack boat storage facility, 4 stories, I am thinking that ESFR
 16.8 for 12 spkrs however I am not sure what to use as a density, flr to flr
 is 20' - 4 racks per floor, just go for the rated flow/psi per head ?
 Tom Poisal, CET
 ___
 Sprinklerforum mailing list
 Sprinklerforum@firesprinkler.org
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-- 
Tom Poisal, CET
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Re: boat storage

[den1]

Here is my take on in-door boat storage marinas. Many of these 
structures reach 50 feet in height and have what amounts to multi-row 
rack storage of plastics containing flammable liquids. There has been no 
large scale fire testing (yet) and there is no way to apply NFPA 13 for 
a code compliant system without some type of performance based element. 
Here are the elements you have to deal with:

1. High elevations that decrease sprinkler effectiveness
2. Flammable liquids control when one boat drops on to those below
3. Possible rack supported buildings and structural failure during a fire
4. Possible drainage issues
5. Most likely exposure issues around these buildings that limit fire 
department access
6. Structural rack deformation due to overloading  by water filled boats 
(and don't think for a minute that the 3/4 plug in the hull is going to 
gravity drain all the water as fast as it comes in - especially when 
leaves, sandwich wrappers or other debris partially obstruct the hole.

etc, etc.

The best arrangement I have seen is to provide a Extra Hazard Group 
I density with an increased design area of 3000 + sq. ft. then have a 
solid barrier installed below the keel of each boat supported by the 
rack. This barrier would be at least 3 feet wide and would have one line 
of ELO or K-17 sprinklers under the barrier. This puts a line of heads 
above every boat below the top row. The only bad thing is the problem 
identified in my item 6 above. As the racks are heated and the strength 
decreases we are increasing the rack loading.

This is a bad occupancy. My firm refuses to do design for them and will 
continue to do so until there is adequate testing. I would encourage 
other to run as well. As far as I'm concerned no permits should be given 
for this occupancy until the marine storage industry funds adequate full 
scale testing and standards are developed to address all the issues.

Brian R. Foster, F.P.E., CFSI,
President
Registered in: FL, GA, IN, MS, NC, TX, VA and WI
GLOBAL FIRE ENGINEERING, INC.
8450 Linger Lodge Rd.
Bradenton, FL 34202
P: 941-758-2551
F: 941-739-6383
C: 941-928-8138
_
Additional Office:
   Murphy, NC - (828)837-2551







tom poisal wrote:
 the E.O.R. emphatically states install a NFPA compliant system

 On 5/3/10, Richardson, Rr.richard...@seattle.gov  wrote:

 Be leery of NFPA 303, last time I checked that standard still specified a
 largely useless standpipe system for piers.  The standard requires a class
 III standpipe at some length but allows the supply pipe to be sized to class
 II.  In other words largely useless for most fire depts..

 Rich Richardson
 Seattle Fire Department

 -Original Message-
 From: sprinklerforum-boun...@firesprinkler.org
 [mailto:sprinklerforum-boun...@firesprinkler.org] On Behalf Of
 craig.pr...@ch2m.com
 Sent: Monday, May 03, 2010 14:14
 To: sprinklerforum@firesprinkler.org
 Subject: RE: boat storage

 Check in NFPA 303 also.  303 has supposedly equated racked boat storage to
 group A plastics storage as referenced in NFPA 13.

 Other options include water mist and Hybrid water based inert gas systems
 (Vortex).

 NFPA 303, 2006
 6.3.4 Indoor Rack Storage.
 6.3.4.1* Where boats are stored on multilevel racks in buildings,
 an approved automatic fire-extinguishing system shall be
 installed throughout the building unless otherwise permitted
 by 6.3.4.2 or 6.3.4.3.
 6.3.4.2 An automatic fire-extinguishing system shall not be
 required for buildings less than 5000 ft2 (465 m2) having multilevel
 racks where provided with one of the following:
 (1) An automatic fire detection and alarm system supervised
 by a central station complying with NFPA 72, National Fire
 Alarm Code
 (2) An automatic fire detection and alarm system supervised
 by a local protective signaling system complying with
 NFPA 72, National Fire Alarm Code, if the provisions of
 6.3.4.2(1) are not technically feasible
 (3) A full-time watch service if the provisions of 6.3.4.2(1) are
 not technically feasible
 6.3.4.3* Existing facilities shall not be required to be protected
 by an automatic fire-extinguishing system where acceptable
 to the authority having jurisdiction.
 6.3.4.4 The design of automatic sprinkler systems shall comply
 with the provisions of Chapter 12 of NFPA 13, Standard for
 the Installation of Sprinkler Systems, for Group A Plastics stored
 on solid shelves.
 6.3.5* An approved water supply shall be provided within
 100 ft (30 m) of the pier/land intersection or fire department
 connection serving fire protection systems.
 6.3.6 Access between water supplies and pier/land intersections
 or fire department connections shall be by roadway acceptable
 to the authority having jurisdiction.

 Craig L. Prahl, CET
 Fire Protection Specialist
 Mechanical Department
 CH2MHILL
 Lockwood Greene
 1500 International Drive
 Spartanburg, SC  29304-0491
 Direct - 864.599.4102
 Fax - 864.599.8439
 craig.pr

Re: boat storage

[tom poisal]

Brian, encouraging others to run as well  is hardly a professional
response, your synopsis is relevant for an insurer, but I am asked to
design a fire sprinkler protection system to reasonably protect a
hazard, WHAT I should run? Give the owner a break and design a system
as best as I can within the applicable codes, your self designed
barrier of 3' width with K-17 or ELO heads is crazy where is the
documentation for this, amounts for headaches for the owner whenever
they move boats.  I guess it's a this is what we have deal,  deal with
it...refusing to address a problem really irks meby the way you
have so many disclaimers why would you care?  See FL Chapter 61G15-27,
etc

On 5/3/10, den1 d...@global-fire.com wrote:
 Here is my take on in-door boat storage marinas. Many of these
 structures reach 50 feet in height and have what amounts to multi-row
 rack storage of plastics containing flammable liquids. There has been no
 large scale fire testing (yet) and there is no way to apply NFPA 13 for
 a code compliant system without some type of performance based element.
 Here are the elements you have to deal with:

 1. High elevations that decrease sprinkler effectiveness
 2. Flammable liquids control when one boat drops on to those below
 3. Possible rack supported buildings and structural failure during a fire
 4. Possible drainage issues
 5. Most likely exposure issues around these buildings that limit fire
 department access
 6. Structural rack deformation due to overloading  by water filled boats
 (and don't think for a minute that the 3/4 plug in the hull is going to
 gravity drain all the water as fast as it comes in - especially when
 leaves, sandwich wrappers or other debris partially obstruct the hole.

 etc, etc.

 The best arrangement I have seen is to provide a Extra Hazard Group
 I density with an increased design area of 3000 + sq. ft. then have a
 solid barrier installed below the keel of each boat supported by the
 rack. This barrier would be at least 3 feet wide and would have one line
 of ELO or K-17 sprinklers under the barrier. This puts a line of heads
 above every boat below the top row. The only bad thing is the problem
 identified in my item 6 above. As the racks are heated and the strength
 decreases we are increasing the rack loading.

 This is a bad occupancy. My firm refuses to do design for them and will
 continue to do so until there is adequate testing. I would encourage
 other to run as well. As far as I'm concerned no permits should be given
 for this occupancy until the marine storage industry funds adequate full
 scale testing and standards are developed to address all the issues.

 Brian R. Foster, F.P.E., CFSI,
 President
 Registered in: FL, GA, IN, MS, NC, TX, VA and WI
 GLOBAL FIRE ENGINEERING, INC.
 8450 Linger Lodge Rd.
 Bradenton, FL 34202
 P: 941-758-2551
 F: 941-739-6383
 C: 941-928-8138
 _
 Additional Office:
Murphy, NC - (828)837-2551







 tom poisal wrote:
 the E.O.R. emphatically states install a NFPA compliant system

 On 5/3/10, Richardson, Rr.richard...@seattle.gov  wrote:

 Be leery of NFPA 303, last time I checked that standard still specified a
 largely useless standpipe system for piers.  The standard requires a
 class
 III standpipe at some length but allows the supply pipe to be sized to
 class
 II.  In other words largely useless for most fire depts..

 Rich Richardson
 Seattle Fire Department

 -Original Message-
 From: sprinklerforum-boun...@firesprinkler.org
 [mailto:sprinklerforum-boun...@firesprinkler.org] On Behalf Of
 craig.pr...@ch2m.com
 Sent: Monday, May 03, 2010 14:14
 To: sprinklerforum@firesprinkler.org
 Subject: RE: boat storage

 Check in NFPA 303 also.  303 has supposedly equated racked boat storage
 to
 group A plastics storage as referenced in NFPA 13.

 Other options include water mist and Hybrid water based inert gas systems
 (Vortex).

 NFPA 303, 2006
 6.3.4 Indoor Rack Storage.
 6.3.4.1* Where boats are stored on multilevel racks in buildings,
 an approved automatic fire-extinguishing system shall be
 installed throughout the building unless otherwise permitted
 by 6.3.4.2 or 6.3.4.3.
 6.3.4.2 An automatic fire-extinguishing system shall not be
 required for buildings less than 5000 ft2 (465 m2) having multilevel
 racks where provided with one of the following:
 (1) An automatic fire detection and alarm system supervised
 by a central station complying with NFPA 72, National Fire
 Alarm Code
 (2) An automatic fire detection and alarm system supervised
 by a local protective signaling system complying with
 NFPA 72, National Fire Alarm Code, if the provisions of
 6.3.4.2(1) are not technically feasible
 (3) A full-time watch service if the provisions of 6.3.4.2(1) are
 not technically feasible
 6.3.4.3* Existing facilities shall not be required to be protected
 by an automatic fire-extinguishing system where acceptable
 to the authority having jurisdiction

Re: boat storage

[Todd Williams]

The big problem is that we do not know what will work.  If you design 
a system based on what you think is best without actually knowing 
what will work, you are opening yourself up to a huge liability 
problem if there ever is a fire. Run is not running away from the 
problem, it's running away from the liability. It's an occupancy that 
needs analysis, much like records storage did a few years ago (I 
guess pretty much resolved as of 2010 edition)



At 07:02 PM 5/3/2010, you wrote:
Brian, encouraging others to run as well  is hardly a professional
response, your synopsis is relevant for an insurer, but I am asked to
design a fire sprinkler protection system to reasonably protect a
hazard, WHAT I should run? Give the owner a break and design a system
as best as I can within the applicable codes, your self designed
barrier of 3' width with K-17 or ELO heads is crazy where is the
documentation for this, amounts for headaches for the owner whenever
they move boats.  I guess it's a this is what we have deal,  deal with
it...refusing to address a problem really irks meby the way you
have so many disclaimers why would you care?  See FL Chapter 61G15-27,
etc

On 5/3/10, den1 d...@global-fire.com wrote:
  Here is my take on in-door boat storage marinas. Many of these
  structures reach 50 feet in height and have what amounts to multi-row
  rack storage of plastics containing flammable liquids. There has been no
  large scale fire testing (yet) and there is no way to apply NFPA 13 for
  a code compliant system without some type of performance based element.
  Here are the elements you have to deal with:
 
  1. High elevations that decrease sprinkler effectiveness
  2. Flammable liquids control when one boat drops on to those below
  3. Possible rack supported buildings and structural failure during a fire
  4. Possible drainage issues
  5. Most likely exposure issues around these buildings that limit fire
  department access
  6. Structural rack deformation due to overloading  by water filled boats
  (and don't think for a minute that the 3/4 plug in the hull is going to
  gravity drain all the water as fast as it comes in - especially when
  leaves, sandwich wrappers or other debris partially obstruct the hole.
 
  etc, etc.
 
  The best arrangement I have seen is to provide a Extra Hazard Group
  I density with an increased design area of 3000 + sq. ft. then have a
  solid barrier installed below the keel of each boat supported by the
  rack. This barrier would be at least 3 feet wide and would have one line
  of ELO or K-17 sprinklers under the barrier. This puts a line of heads
  above every boat below the top row. The only bad thing is the problem
  identified in my item 6 above. As the racks are heated and the strength
  decreases we are increasing the rack loading.
 
  This is a bad occupancy. My firm refuses to do design for them and will
  continue to do so until there is adequate testing. I would encourage
  other to run as well. As far as I'm concerned no permits should be given
  for this occupancy until the marine storage industry funds adequate full
  scale testing and standards are developed to address all the issues.
 
  Brian R. Foster, F.P.E., CFSI,
  President
  Registered in: FL, GA, IN, MS, NC, TX, VA and WI
  GLOBAL FIRE ENGINEERING, INC.
  8450 Linger Lodge Rd.
  Bradenton, FL 34202
  P: 941-758-2551
  F: 941-739-6383
  C: 941-928-8138
  _
  Additional Office:
 Murphy, NC - (828)837-2551
 
 
 
 
 
 
 
  tom poisal wrote:
  the E.O.R. emphatically states install a NFPA compliant system
 
  On 5/3/10, Richardson, Rr.richard...@seattle.gov  wrote:
 
  Be leery of NFPA 303, last time I checked that standard still specified a
  largely useless standpipe system for piers.  The standard requires a
  class
  III standpipe at some length but allows the supply pipe to be sized to
  class
  II.  In other words largely useless for most fire depts..
 
  Rich Richardson
  Seattle Fire Department
 
  -Original Message-
  From: sprinklerforum-boun...@firesprinkler.org
  [mailto:sprinklerforum-boun...@firesprinkler.org] On Behalf Of
  craig.pr...@ch2m.com
  Sent: Monday, May 03, 2010 14:14
  To: sprinklerforum@firesprinkler.org
  Subject: RE: boat storage
 
  Check in NFPA 303 also.  303 has supposedly equated racked boat storage
  to
  group A plastics storage as referenced in NFPA 13.
 
  Other options include water mist and Hybrid water based inert gas systems
  (Vortex).
 
  NFPA 303, 2006
  6.3.4 Indoor Rack Storage.
  6.3.4.1* Where boats are stored on multilevel racks in buildings,
  an approved automatic fire-extinguishing system shall be
  installed throughout the building unless otherwise permitted
  by 6.3.4.2 or 6.3.4.3.
  6.3.4.2 An automatic fire-extinguishing system shall not be
  required for buildings less than 5000 ft2 (465 m2) having multilevel
  racks where provided with one of the following:
  (1) An automatic fire

Re: boat storage

[tom poisal]

okay Todd so today, what do I do?

On Mon, May 3, 2010 at 7:45 PM, Todd Williams t...@fpdc.com wrote:

 The big problem is that we do not know what will work.  If you design
 a system based on what you think is best without actually knowing
 what will work, you are opening yourself up to a huge liability
 problem if there ever is a fire. Run is not running away from the
 problem, it's running away from the liability. It's an occupancy that
 needs analysis, much like records storage did a few years ago (I
 guess pretty much resolved as of 2010 edition)



 At 07:02 PM 5/3/2010, you wrote:
 Brian, encouraging others to run as well  is hardly a professional
 response, your synopsis is relevant for an insurer, but I am asked to
 design a fire sprinkler protection system to reasonably protect a
 hazard, WHAT I should run? Give the owner a break and design a system
 as best as I can within the applicable codes, your self designed
 barrier of 3' width with K-17 or ELO heads is crazy where is the
 documentation for this, amounts for headaches for the owner whenever
 they move boats.  I guess it's a this is what we have deal,  deal with
 it...refusing to address a problem really irks meby the way you
 have so many disclaimers why would you care?  See FL Chapter 61G15-27,
 etc
 
 On 5/3/10, den1 d...@global-fire.com wrote:
   Here is my take on in-door boat storage marinas. Many of these
   structures reach 50 feet in height and have what amounts to multi-row
   rack storage of plastics containing flammable liquids. There has been
 no
   large scale fire testing (yet) and there is no way to apply NFPA 13 for
   a code compliant system without some type of performance based element.
   Here are the elements you have to deal with:
  
   1. High elevations that decrease sprinkler effectiveness
   2. Flammable liquids control when one boat drops on to those below
   3. Possible rack supported buildings and structural failure during a
 fire
   4. Possible drainage issues
   5. Most likely exposure issues around these buildings that limit fire
   department access
   6. Structural rack deformation due to overloading  by water filled
 boats
   (and don't think for a minute that the 3/4 plug in the hull is going
 to
   gravity drain all the water as fast as it comes in - especially when
   leaves, sandwich wrappers or other debris partially obstruct the hole.
  
   etc, etc.
  
   The best arrangement I have seen is to provide a Extra Hazard Group
   I density with an increased design area of 3000 + sq. ft. then have a
   solid barrier installed below the keel of each boat supported by the
   rack. This barrier would be at least 3 feet wide and would have one
 line
   of ELO or K-17 sprinklers under the barrier. This puts a line of heads
   above every boat below the top row. The only bad thing is the problem
   identified in my item 6 above. As the racks are heated and the strength
   decreases we are increasing the rack loading.
  
   This is a bad occupancy. My firm refuses to do design for them and will
   continue to do so until there is adequate testing. I would encourage
   other to run as well. As far as I'm concerned no permits should be
 given
   for this occupancy until the marine storage industry funds adequate
 full
   scale testing and standards are developed to address all the issues.
  
   Brian R. Foster, F.P.E., CFSI,
   President
   Registered in: FL, GA, IN, MS, NC, TX, VA and WI
   GLOBAL FIRE ENGINEERING, INC.
   8450 Linger Lodge Rd.
   Bradenton, FL 34202
   P: 941-758-2551
   F: 941-739-6383
   C: 941-928-8138
   _
   Additional Office:
  Murphy, NC - (828)837-2551
  
  
  
  
  
  
  
   tom poisal wrote:
   the E.O.R. emphatically states install a NFPA compliant system
  
   On 5/3/10, Richardson, Rr.richard...@seattle.gov  wrote:
  
   Be leery of NFPA 303, last time I checked that standard still
 specified a
   largely useless standpipe system for piers.  The standard requires a
   class
   III standpipe at some length but allows the supply pipe to be sized
 to
   class
   II.  In other words largely useless for most fire depts..
  
   Rich Richardson
   Seattle Fire Department
  
   -Original Message-
   From: sprinklerforum-boun...@firesprinkler.org
   [mailto:sprinklerforum-boun...@firesprinkler.org] On Behalf Of
   craig.pr...@ch2m.com
   Sent: Monday, May 03, 2010 14:14
   To: sprinklerforum@firesprinkler.org
   Subject: RE: boat storage
  
   Check in NFPA 303 also.  303 has supposedly equated racked boat
 storage
   to
   group A plastics storage as referenced in NFPA 13.
  
   Other options include water mist and Hybrid water based inert gas
 systems
   (Vortex).
  
   NFPA 303, 2006
   6.3.4 Indoor Rack Storage.
   6.3.4.1* Where boats are stored on multilevel racks in buildings,
   an approved automatic fire-extinguishing system shall be
   installed throughout the building unless otherwise permitted
   by 6.3.4.2

Re: boat storage

[Ron Greenman]

Today you tell the EOR that there is no NFPA compliant method and he
needs to what he's paid for--engineer a performance spec and strategy
that a certified layout technician can design a  layout to.

On Mon, May 3, 2010 at 5:42 PM, tom poisal tspoi...@gmail.com wrote:
 okay Todd so today, what do I do?

 On Mon, May 3, 2010 at 7:45 PM, Todd Williams t...@fpdc.com wrote:

 The big problem is that we do not know what will work.  If you design
 a system based on what you think is best without actually knowing
 what will work, you are opening yourself up to a huge liability
 problem if there ever is a fire. Run is not running away from the
 problem, it's running away from the liability. It's an occupancy that
 needs analysis, much like records storage did a few years ago (I
 guess pretty much resolved as of 2010 edition)



 At 07:02 PM 5/3/2010, you wrote:
 Brian, encouraging others to run as well  is hardly a professional
 response, your synopsis is relevant for an insurer, but I am asked to
 design a fire sprinkler protection system to reasonably protect a
 hazard, WHAT I should run? Give the owner a break and design a system
 as best as I can within the applicable codes, your self designed
 barrier of 3' width with K-17 or ELO heads is crazy where is the
 documentation for this, amounts for headaches for the owner whenever
 they move boats.  I guess it's a this is what we have deal,  deal with
 it...refusing to address a problem really irks meby the way you
 have so many disclaimers why would you care?  See FL Chapter 61G15-27,
 etc
 
 On 5/3/10, den1 d...@global-fire.com wrote:
   Here is my take on in-door boat storage marinas. Many of these
   structures reach 50 feet in height and have what amounts to multi-row
   rack storage of plastics containing flammable liquids. There has been
 no
   large scale fire testing (yet) and there is no way to apply NFPA 13 for
   a code compliant system without some type of performance based element.
   Here are the elements you have to deal with:
  
   1. High elevations that decrease sprinkler effectiveness
   2. Flammable liquids control when one boat drops on to those below
   3. Possible rack supported buildings and structural failure during a
 fire
   4. Possible drainage issues
   5. Most likely exposure issues around these buildings that limit fire
   department access
   6. Structural rack deformation due to overloading  by water filled
 boats
   (and don't think for a minute that the 3/4 plug in the hull is going
 to
   gravity drain all the water as fast as it comes in - especially when
   leaves, sandwich wrappers or other debris partially obstruct the hole.
  
   etc, etc.
  
   The best arrangement I have seen is to provide a Extra Hazard Group
   I density with an increased design area of 3000 + sq. ft. then have a
   solid barrier installed below the keel of each boat supported by the
   rack. This barrier would be at least 3 feet wide and would have one
 line
   of ELO or K-17 sprinklers under the barrier. This puts a line of heads
   above every boat below the top row. The only bad thing is the problem
   identified in my item 6 above. As the racks are heated and the strength
   decreases we are increasing the rack loading.
  
   This is a bad occupancy. My firm refuses to do design for them and will
   continue to do so until there is adequate testing. I would encourage
   other to run as well. As far as I'm concerned no permits should be
 given
   for this occupancy until the marine storage industry funds adequate
 full
   scale testing and standards are developed to address all the issues.
  
   Brian R. Foster, F.P.E., CFSI,
   President
   Registered in: FL, GA, IN, MS, NC, TX, VA and WI
   GLOBAL FIRE ENGINEERING, INC.
   8450 Linger Lodge Rd.
   Bradenton, FL 34202
   P: 941-758-2551
   F: 941-739-6383
   C: 941-928-8138
   _
   Additional Office:
      Murphy, NC     - (828)837-2551
  
  
  
  
  
  
  
   tom poisal wrote:
   the E.O.R. emphatically states install a NFPA compliant system
  
   On 5/3/10, Richardson, Rr.richard...@seattle.gov  wrote:
  
   Be leery of NFPA 303, last time I checked that standard still
 specified a
   largely useless standpipe system for piers.  The standard requires a
   class
   III standpipe at some length but allows the supply pipe to be sized
 to
   class
   II.  In other words largely useless for most fire depts..
  
   Rich Richardson
   Seattle Fire Department
  
   -Original Message-
   From: sprinklerforum-boun...@firesprinkler.org
   [mailto:sprinklerforum-boun...@firesprinkler.org] On Behalf Of
   craig.pr...@ch2m.com
   Sent: Monday, May 03, 2010 14:14
   To: sprinklerforum@firesprinkler.org
   Subject: RE: boat storage
  
   Check in NFPA 303 also.  303 has supposedly equated racked boat
 storage
   to
   group A plastics storage as referenced in NFPA 13.
  
   Other options include water mist and Hybrid water based inert gas
 systems

Re: boat storage

[Todd Williams]

What Ron said. The EOR said install an NFPA compliant system and 
there is no NFPA compliant system. Kick it back and let him figure it 
out. Make sure you copy everyone except you mother-in-law.


At 08:42 PM 5/3/2010, you wrote:
okay Todd so today, what do I do?

On Mon, May 3, 2010 at 7:45 PM, Todd Williams t...@fpdc.com wrote:

  The big problem is that we do not know what will work.  If you design
  a system based on what you think is best without actually knowing
  what will work, you are opening yourself up to a huge liability
  problem if there ever is a fire. Run is not running away from the
  problem, it's running away from the liability. It's an occupancy that
  needs analysis, much like records storage did a few years ago (I
  guess pretty much resolved as of 2010 edition)
 
 
 
  At 07:02 PM 5/3/2010, you wrote:
  Brian, encouraging others to run as well  is hardly a professional
  response, your synopsis is relevant for an insurer, but I am asked to
  design a fire sprinkler protection system to reasonably protect a
  hazard, WHAT I should run? Give the owner a break and design a system
  as best as I can within the applicable codes, your self designed
  barrier of 3' width with K-17 or ELO heads is crazy where is the
  documentation for this, amounts for headaches for the owner whenever
  they move boats.  I guess it's a this is what we have deal,  deal with
  it...refusing to address a problem really irks meby the way you
  have so many disclaimers why would you care?  See FL Chapter 61G15-27,
  etc
  
  On 5/3/10, den1 d...@global-fire.com wrote:
Here is my take on in-door boat storage marinas. Many of these
structures reach 50 feet in height and have what amounts to multi-row
rack storage of plastics containing flammable liquids. There has been
  no
large scale fire testing (yet) and there is no way to apply NFPA 13 for
a code compliant system without some type of performance based element.
Here are the elements you have to deal with:
   
1. High elevations that decrease sprinkler effectiveness
2. Flammable liquids control when one boat drops on to those below
3. Possible rack supported buildings and structural failure during a
  fire
4. Possible drainage issues
5. Most likely exposure issues around these buildings that limit fire
department access
6. Structural rack deformation due to overloading  by water filled
  boats
(and don't think for a minute that the 3/4 plug in the hull is going
  to
gravity drain all the water as fast as it comes in - especially when
leaves, sandwich wrappers or other debris partially obstruct the hole.
   
etc, etc.
   
The best arrangement I have seen is to provide a Extra Hazard Group
I density with an increased design area of 3000 + sq. ft. then have a
solid barrier installed below the keel of each boat supported by the
rack. This barrier would be at least 3 feet wide and would have one
  line
of ELO or K-17 sprinklers under the barrier. This puts a line of heads
above every boat below the top row. The only bad thing is the problem
identified in my item 6 above. As the racks are heated and the strength
decreases we are increasing the rack loading.
   
This is a bad occupancy. My firm refuses to do design for them and will
continue to do so until there is adequate testing. I would encourage
other to run as well. As far as I'm concerned no permits should be
  given
for this occupancy until the marine storage industry funds adequate
  full
scale testing and standards are developed to address all the issues.
   
Brian R. Foster, F.P.E., CFSI,
President
Registered in: FL, GA, IN, MS, NC, TX, VA and WI
GLOBAL FIRE ENGINEERING, INC.
8450 Linger Lodge Rd.
Bradenton, FL 34202
P: 941-758-2551
F: 941-739-6383
C: 941-928-8138
_
Additional Office:
   Murphy, NC - (828)837-2551
   
   
   
   
   
   
   
tom poisal wrote:
the E.O.R. emphatically states install a NFPA compliant system
   
On 5/3/10, Richardson, Rr.richard...@seattle.gov  wrote:
   
Be leery of NFPA 303, last time I checked that standard still
  specified a
largely useless standpipe system for piers.  The standard requires a
class
III standpipe at some length but allows the supply pipe to be sized
  to
class
II.  In other words largely useless for most fire depts..
   
Rich Richardson
Seattle Fire Department
   
-Original Message-
From: sprinklerforum-boun...@firesprinkler.org
[mailto:sprinklerforum-boun...@firesprinkler.org] On Behalf Of
craig.pr...@ch2m.com
Sent: Monday, May 03, 2010 14:14
To: sprinklerforum@firesprinkler.org
Subject: RE: boat storage
   
Check in NFPA 303 also.  303 has supposedly equated racked boat
  storage
to
group A plastics storage as referenced in NFPA 13.
   
Other

RE: Boat Storage

[Jim Davidson]

When working for a client with similar type of boat rack storage, we looked at 
using High Expansion Foam when reviewing with the manufacturer of the foam 
equipment and concentrate the manufacturers noted that high ex foam is not 
listed for the protection of boats in racks. Same problem with using sidewall 
sprinkler in the boat racks, the sidewall sprinklers are not listed for used as 
in-rack sprinkler. Just because most of the boat rack facility general 
contractors have hired sprinkler contractors to install the sprinkler systems 
that the boat rack building franchiser supplies which uses the sidewall 
sprinkler to provide in rack protection, does not mean that we all follow. In 
the specific building that I was involved with the State Fire Marshal is a 
registered FPE. When the FM questioned the rack building franchiser about the 
use of the sidewall sprinklers for in-rack use and to provide the UL or FM 
approval/listing for use the building franchiser's sprinkler contractor stated 
that the sidewall sprinklers were not approved for use in-racks. The sprinkler 
contractor noted that he just BS'ed his way with other AHJ's. Another example 
of a sprinkler contractor providing a sprinkler system using devices not listed 
or approved for the use intended and as a result giving the sprinkler industry 
a good name.   

We need to follow the device manufacturer's UL listing for their products. If 
the device or system is not listed why take on the liability. 

We need to wait for the results of the fire testing program. 

Regards


Jim

Jim Davidson 
 
Davidson Associates 
302-378-7600
-Original Message-
From: sprinklerforum-boun...@firesprinkler.org 
[mailto:sprinklerforum-boun...@firesprinkler.org] On Behalf Of 
craig.pr...@ch2m.com
Sent: Thursday, January 22, 2009 5:00 PM
To: sprinklerforum@firesprinkler.org
Subject: RE: Boat Storage

I've dealt with aircraft hangers and tire storage where HEF was used or 
proposed to be used.  The area has to contain the foam to the level above the 
hazard in order to extinguish the fire and prevent re-ignition.  If the doors 
are open then you're going to have foam spilling out to the runways and all 
points beyond. Hopefully the system rate of discharge can overcome the rate of 
escape.  Without containment you have limited control.  It's like leaving the 
doors open in an area protected by FM-200 or any other type of extinguishing 
media that requires containment in order to work.  It mighta, sorta, kinda 
work, maybe.

 
Craig L. Prahl, CET   
Fire Protection Specialist
Mechanical Department
CH2MHILL
Lockwood Greene
1500 International Drive
PO Box 491, Spartanburg, SC  29304-0491
Direct - 864.599.4102
Fax - 864.599.8439
craig.pr...@ch2m.com
http://www.ch2m.com 


-Original Message-
From: sprinklerforum-boun...@firesprinkler.org 
[mailto:sprinklerforum-boun...@firesprinkler.org] On Behalf Of Chris Cahill
Sent: Thursday, January 22, 2009 4:54 PM
To: sprinklerforum@firesprinkler.org
Subject: RE: Boat Storage

Well aircraft hangers that I see are often left open.  I drive past the MSP 
hangers once in a while and especially in summer they are usually open.
When I worked at an airport in the early 90's C-5A and C-130 were almost always 
open during the week.  I have no experience with HEF so if keeping the door 
closed is an issue with boats wouldn't it be an issue with open
hangers.  How do they deal with that?

Chris Cahill, P.E.
Fire Protection Engineer
Sentry Fire Protection, Inc.
 
763-658-4483
763-658-4921 fax
 
Email: chr...@sentryfiremn.com
 
Mail: P.O. Box 69
Waverly, MN 55390
 
Location: 4439 Hwy 12 SW
  Waverly, MN 55390

-Original Message-
From: sprinklerforum-boun...@firesprinkler.org
[mailto:sprinklerforum-boun...@firesprinkler.org] On Behalf Of 
craig.pr...@ch2m.com
Sent: Thursday, January 22, 2009 3:24 PM
To: sprinklerforum@firesprinkler.org
Subject: RE: Boat Storage

Might be possible of the storage area were completely closed but most are
open sided.  In that scenario, HEF is of little value.   


Craig L. Prahl, CET   
Fire Protection Specialist
Mechanical Department
CH2MHILL
Lockwood Greene
1500 International Drive
PO Box 491, Spartanburg, SC  29304-0491
Direct - 864.599.4102
Fax - 864.599.8439
craig.pr...@ch2m.com
http://www.ch2m.com 


-Original Message-
From: sprinklerforum-boun...@firesprinkler.org
[mailto:sprinklerforum-boun...@firesprinkler.org] On Behalf Of Ford, Charles
Sent: Thursday, January 22, 2009 4:09 PM
To: sprinklerforum@firesprinkler.org
Subject: RE: Boat Storage

When this came up years ago, someone suggested High Expansion Foam. Does your 
response to the customer have to be inexpensive too? It can protect airplanes 3 
dimensionally, with fuel and enclosed compartments. Not too different from boats

C. Burton Ford
Designer- NICET Certified
Cintas Fire Protection-D-47
Warminster, PA 18974
Phone 267-487-1000
Fax 267-487-1010

-Original Message-
From: sprinklerforum

Re: Boat Storage

[Roland Huggins]

There are several items mentioned I'd likely to comment on.

1.  As soon as someone shows me a hangar that stacks their planes in  
racks, I'll  consider it as a starting point.


2. Fire modeling is not a useful tool for defining SUPPRESSION criteria.

3. Many racks also provide the roof support, so filling with water  
have broader ramifications than just the impact on the boat.


4.  The owner's desire to have a flexible rack configuration to  
accommodate different lengths and heights (the real kicker), makes  
finding a solution that much more challenging.  The only reasonable  
WAG that comes to mind incorporates a lot of horizontal barriers.


5.  I want to watch some of the full scale fire tests since I missed  
James' spectacular benchmark test of racks without sprinklers.  The  
last racked marina fire I heard about could be seen from 20 miles  
away.  Whrah


Roland

On Jan 22, 2009, at 1:09 PM, Ford, Charles wrote:

When this came up years ago, someone suggested High Expansion Foam.  
Does your response to the customer
have to be inexpensive too? It can protect airplanes 3  
dimensionally, with fuel and enclosed

compartments. Not too different from boats

C. Burton Ford
Designer- NICET Certified


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RE: Boat Storage

[Matthew J. Willis]

last racked marina fire I heard about could be seen from 20 miles
away.  Whrah
Roland


I would like to add to this.. Most of the pictures of the damage I found on
these were taken from the air. Some of the secondary effects were across
the bays, water not building type.

R/

Matt

Matthew J. Willis
Norred Fire Systems L.L.C.
318-387-1134 Voice
318-387-1163 Facsimile
m...@norredfire.com

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RE: Boat Storage

[Thom McMahon]

The message here is, DON'T GET TOO CLOSE!

Thom McMahon, SET
Firetech, Inc.
2560 Copper Ridge Dr
P.O. Box 882136
Steamboat Springs, CO 80488
Tel:  970-879-7952
Fax: 970-879-7926



-Original Message-
From: sprinklerforum-boun...@firesprinkler.org
[mailto:sprinklerforum-boun...@firesprinkler.org] On Behalf Of Matthew J.
Willis
Sent: Friday, January 23, 2009 9:34 AM
To: sprinklerforum@firesprinkler.org
Subject: RE: Boat Storage

last racked marina fire I heard about could be seen from 20 miles away.  
Whrah Roland


I would like to add to this.. Most of the pictures of the damage I found on
these were taken from the air. Some of the secondary effects were across
the bays, water not building type.

R/

Matt

Matthew J. Willis
Norred Fire Systems L.L.C.
318-387-1134 Voice
318-387-1163 Facsimile
m...@norredfire.com

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RE: Boat Storage

[Chris Cahill]

Given a properly designed, installed and maintained sprinkler system.  

Do exits matter?  How many cases do we have of a bedroom catching on fire
where the sleeping occupant wakes up from getting wet or in the recent case
didn't wake up.

Do rated separations matter?  I've seen fires in the unsprinklered side go
through code complying rated walls only to be stopped by the sprinklers with
no fire damage to the sprinklered side.  How about the high rise fires that
burn until they reached a sprinklered floor.

Does smoke control matter?  If there is residual smoke it's minor and well
diluted.

Do fire hydrants and access roads matter?  In 10 years with an average of 16
sprinklered fires in St. Paul, MN I was only aware of the use of the FDC 4
times.  And actually 2 of those were for the standpipes in unsprinklered
buildings.  I talked to the Chief's on most of those calls about issue they
had. 

Fire alarms?  I contented if it's sprinklered fire alarms should not
operate.  Fire alarms are to warning people about uncontrolled fires that
are a threat.  Uh, if the sprinklers operated is it a threat? Do you know
there is a trend in FD's only sending a Chief or one company to investigate
water flow alarms or fire alarms.  The FD's get it, the number of alarms
where that is the only indication of a problem that result in fire is about
0 (not 0 but real close).  In 18 years of riding big red trucks I never went
to a fire that was only reported by an alarm.  These FD's send a full
assignment if they get a phone call that follows up on the alarm. 

Basically where is the body count?  I've been on this forum for a very long
time I don't recall any discussion ever about a fire death in a sprinklered
building.  I've always asked national figures in conversation about actual
fire deaths in sprinklered buildings that they have been a part of.  So far
none is the answer.  Back in '99-'00 when I saw shepparding through the IFC
requirement for all buildings with an R be sprinkler I asked the committee
about their knowledge of fire deaths and sprinklers.  Either they had none
or thought I was being rhetorical.   Where is the cost benefit of further
mitigated losses with the other stuff after sprinklers? 

So one might argue about the balanced design crap and the possibility of
sprinkler failure.  If it's properly designed, installed and maintained has
there ever been a failure?  Maybe but rare.  We also know really bad
sprinkler jobs still put out a lot of fire.  We tried all the other fire
protection schemes with in my opinion limited success.  Talking about the
code from Hammurabi to the early 1980's.  So if the proper or incorrect
sprinklers fail we are back to the designs of the yesteryear and we know the
outcome.  We have the choice to put money into the backup plans which will
fail or money into the sprinkler to make sure they don't.  This is a
cultural shift that is occurring since the late 1980's.  And just like our
vested interests pushing on direction the lobbies for the other interests
are arguing the opposite slowing the proper transformation.

So I wasn't bashing FPE's.  I also wasn't suggesting how one gets a proper
system - that may or may not involve an FPE.  I was summarizing all the
other FPE type stuff as marginal effect after proper sprinklers.  

I know there are exceptions to every thing I said.  For every exception
anyone can come up with 1000's of examples exist of the normal.  Perhaps
someone has knowledge of a fire death in a properly sprinklered building.  I
think Joe Hankins once spoke of 4 deaths but I recall something wasn't
right.  From a minimum public policy point of view I don't see the point in
planning for the exception when they are very, very, very rare. 

Or perhaps it's just my memory?   

Chris Cahill, P.E.
Fire Protection Engineer
Sentry Fire Protection, Inc.
 
763-658-4483
763-658-4921 fax
 
Email: chr...@sentryfiremn.com
 
Mail: P.O. Box 69
Waverly, MN 55390
 
Location: 4439 Hwy 12 SW
  Waverly, MN 55390
-Original Message-
From: sprinklerforum-boun...@firesprinkler.org
[mailto:sprinklerforum-boun...@firesprinkler.org] On Behalf Of Todd Williams
Sent: Wednesday, January 21, 2009 5:08 PM
To: sprinklerforum@firesprinkler.org
Subject: RE: Boat Storage


   And hey if it's properly sprinklered (to an
extent) fire protection engineering is a marginal concern.

Curious comment. Care to expand on that?


Todd G. Williams, PE
Fire Protection Design/Consulting
Stonington, Connecticut
www.fpdc.com
860.535.2080  
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RE: Boat Storage

[Craig.Prahl]

I have heard this quoted from various sources :

The National Fire Protection Association has no record of more than two deaths 
in a completely sprinkled building where the system was properly operating. 
Fire sprinkler systems are very effective and may cut fire deaths by one-half 
to two-thirds in properties where they are installed. (Congressional Fire 
Services Institute)


Craig L. Prahl, CET   
Fire Protection Specialist
Mechanical Department
CH2MHILL
Lockwood Greene
1500 International Drive
PO Box 491, Spartanburg, SC  29304-0491
Direct - 864.599.4102
Fax - 864.599.8439
craig.pr...@ch2m.com
http://www.ch2m.com 


-Original Message-
From: sprinklerforum-boun...@firesprinkler.org 
[mailto:sprinklerforum-boun...@firesprinkler.org] On Behalf Of Chris Cahill
Sent: Thursday, January 22, 2009 10:20 AM
To: sprinklerforum@firesprinkler.org
Subject: RE: Boat Storage

Given a properly designed, installed and maintained sprinkler system.  

Do exits matter?  How many cases do we have of a bedroom catching on fire where 
the sleeping occupant wakes up from getting wet or in the recent case didn't 
wake up.

Do rated separations matter?  I've seen fires in the unsprinklered side go 
through code complying rated walls only to be stopped by the sprinklers with no 
fire damage to the sprinklered side.  How about the high rise fires that burn 
until they reached a sprinklered floor.

Does smoke control matter?  If there is residual smoke it's minor and well 
diluted.

Do fire hydrants and access roads matter?  In 10 years with an average of 16 
sprinklered fires in St. Paul, MN I was only aware of the use of the FDC 4 
times.  And actually 2 of those were for the standpipes in unsprinklered 
buildings.  I talked to the Chief's on most of those calls about issue they 
had. 

Fire alarms?  I contented if it's sprinklered fire alarms should not operate.  
Fire alarms are to warning people about uncontrolled fires that are a threat.  
Uh, if the sprinklers operated is it a threat? Do you know there is a trend in 
FD's only sending a Chief or one company to investigate water flow alarms or 
fire alarms.  The FD's get it, the number of alarms where that is the only 
indication of a problem that result in fire is about 0 (not 0 but real close).  
In 18 years of riding big red trucks I never went to a fire that was only 
reported by an alarm.  These FD's send a full assignment if they get a phone 
call that follows up on the alarm. 

Basically where is the body count?  I've been on this forum for a very long 
time I don't recall any discussion ever about a fire death in a sprinklered 
building.  I've always asked national figures in conversation about actual fire 
deaths in sprinklered buildings that they have been a part of.  So far none is 
the answer.  Back in '99-'00 when I saw shepparding through the IFC requirement 
for all buildings with an R be sprinkler I asked the committee about their 
knowledge of fire deaths and sprinklers.  Either they had none
or thought I was being rhetorical.   Where is the cost benefit of further
mitigated losses with the other stuff after sprinklers? 

So one might argue about the balanced design crap and the possibility of 
sprinkler failure.  If it's properly designed, installed and maintained has 
there ever been a failure?  Maybe but rare.  We also know really bad sprinkler 
jobs still put out a lot of fire.  We tried all the other fire protection 
schemes with in my opinion limited success.  Talking about the code from 
Hammurabi to the early 1980's.  So if the proper or incorrect sprinklers fail 
we are back to the designs of the yesteryear and we know the outcome.  We have 
the choice to put money into the backup plans which will fail or money into the 
sprinkler to make sure they don't.  This is a cultural shift that is occurring 
since the late 1980's.  And just like our vested interests pushing on direction 
the lobbies for the other interests are arguing the opposite slowing the proper 
transformation.

So I wasn't bashing FPE's.  I also wasn't suggesting how one gets a proper 
system - that may or may not involve an FPE.  I was summarizing all the other 
FPE type stuff as marginal effect after proper sprinklers.  

I know there are exceptions to every thing I said.  For every exception anyone 
can come up with 1000's of examples exist of the normal.  Perhaps someone has 
knowledge of a fire death in a properly sprinklered building.  I think Joe 
Hankins once spoke of 4 deaths but I recall something wasn't right.  From a 
minimum public policy point of view I don't see the point in planning for the 
exception when they are very, very, very rare. 

Or perhaps it's just my memory?   

Chris Cahill, P.E.
Fire Protection Engineer
Sentry Fire Protection, Inc.
 
763-658-4483
763-658-4921 fax
 
Email: chr...@sentryfiremn.com
 
Mail: P.O. Box 69
Waverly, MN 55390
 
Location: 4439 Hwy 12 SW
  Waverly, MN 55390
-Original Message-
From

Re: Boat Storage

[Joe Hankins]

Chris,

There have been fire deaths in sprinklered buildings. For a long time, 
NFSA and others said that there had never been multiple fire deaths in a 
sprinklered building, but that was incorrect. There was a fire in a 
textile mill in NC in the mid-1980s where multiple people died. (the 
design was proper per the code, and would still be considered so 
today, even though it didn't work then and won't work now on the 
particular hazard present.


For this particular issue (boats) no one can say what a proper design 
might be, or even if it is possible to design one for the types of boat 
storage that now exist.


Joe

Chris Cahill wrote:
Given a properly designed, installed and maintained sprinkler system.  


Do exits matter?  How many cases do we have of a bedroom catching on fire
where the sleeping occupant wakes up from getting wet or in the recent case
didn't wake up.

Do rated separations matter?  I've seen fires in the unsprinklered side go
through code complying rated walls only to be stopped by the sprinklers with
no fire damage to the sprinklered side.  How about the high rise fires that
burn until they reached a sprinklered floor.

Does smoke control matter?  If there is residual smoke it's minor and well
diluted.

Do fire hydrants and access roads matter?  In 10 years with an average of 16
sprinklered fires in St. Paul, MN I was only aware of the use of the FDC 4
times.  And actually 2 of those were for the standpipes in unsprinklered
buildings.  I talked to the Chief's on most of those calls about issue they
had. 


Fire alarms?  I contented if it's sprinklered fire alarms should not
operate.  Fire alarms are to warning people about uncontrolled fires that
are a threat.  Uh, if the sprinklers operated is it a threat? Do you know
there is a trend in FD's only sending a Chief or one company to investigate
water flow alarms or fire alarms.  The FD's get it, the number of alarms
where that is the only indication of a problem that result in fire is about
0 (not 0 but real close).  In 18 years of riding big red trucks I never went
to a fire that was only reported by an alarm.  These FD's send a full
assignment if they get a phone call that follows up on the alarm. 


Basically where is the body count?  I've been on this forum for a very long
time I don't recall any discussion ever about a fire death in a sprinklered
building.  I've always asked national figures in conversation about actual
fire deaths in sprinklered buildings that they have been a part of.  So far
none is the answer.  Back in '99-'00 when I saw shepparding through the IFC
requirement for all buildings with an R be sprinkler I asked the committee
about their knowledge of fire deaths and sprinklers.  Either they had none
or thought I was being rhetorical.   Where is the cost benefit of further
mitigated losses with the other stuff after sprinklers? 


So one might argue about the balanced design crap and the possibility of
sprinkler failure.  If it's properly designed, installed and maintained has
there ever been a failure?  Maybe but rare.  We also know really bad
sprinkler jobs still put out a lot of fire.  We tried all the other fire
protection schemes with in my opinion limited success.  Talking about the
code from Hammurabi to the early 1980's.  So if the proper or incorrect
sprinklers fail we are back to the designs of the yesteryear and we know the
outcome.  We have the choice to put money into the backup plans which will
fail or money into the sprinkler to make sure they don't.  This is a
cultural shift that is occurring since the late 1980's.  And just like our
vested interests pushing on direction the lobbies for the other interests
are arguing the opposite slowing the proper transformation.

So I wasn't bashing FPE's.  I also wasn't suggesting how one gets a proper
system - that may or may not involve an FPE.  I was summarizing all the
other FPE type stuff as marginal effect after proper sprinklers.  


I know there are exceptions to every thing I said.  For every exception
anyone can come up with 1000's of examples exist of the normal.  Perhaps
someone has knowledge of a fire death in a properly sprinklered building.  I
think Joe Hankins once spoke of 4 deaths but I recall something wasn't
right.  From a minimum public policy point of view I don't see the point in
planning for the exception when they are very, very, very rare. 

Or perhaps it's just my memory?   


Chris Cahill, P.E.
Fire Protection Engineer
Sentry Fire Protection, Inc.
 
763-658-4483

763-658-4921 fax
 
Email: chr...@sentryfiremn.com
 
Mail: P.O. Box 69

Waverly, MN 55390
 
Location: 4439 Hwy 12 SW

  Waverly, MN 55390
-Original Message-
From: sprinklerforum-boun...@firesprinkler.org
[mailto:sprinklerforum-boun...@firesprinkler.org] On Behalf Of Todd Williams
Sent: Wednesday, January 21, 2009 5:08 PM
To: sprinklerforum@firesprinkler.org
Subject: RE: Boat Storage


  

  And hey if it's properly sprinklered

Re: Boat Storage

[Joe Hankins]

Four people died in the fire I am referring to.  On September 7, 1982, 
an early-morning fire at a textile plant in Washington killed four 
members of the National Spinning Company fire brigade.


Joe

craig.pr...@ch2m.com wrote:

I have heard this quoted from various sources :

The National Fire Protection Association has no record of more than two deaths in a 
completely sprinkled building where the system was properly operating. Fire sprinkler 
systems are very effective and may cut fire deaths by one-half to two-thirds in 
properties where they are installed. (Congressional Fire Services Institute)


Craig L. Prahl, CET   
Fire Protection Specialist

Mechanical Department
CH2MHILL
Lockwood Greene
1500 International Drive
PO Box 491, Spartanburg, SC  29304-0491
Direct - 864.599.4102
Fax - 864.599.8439
craig.pr...@ch2m.com
http://www.ch2m.com 



-Original Message-
From: sprinklerforum-boun...@firesprinkler.org 
[mailto:sprinklerforum-boun...@firesprinkler.org] On Behalf Of Chris Cahill
Sent: Thursday, January 22, 2009 10:20 AM
To: sprinklerforum@firesprinkler.org
Subject: RE: Boat Storage

Given a properly designed, installed and maintained sprinkler system.  


Do exits matter?  How many cases do we have of a bedroom catching on fire where 
the sleeping occupant wakes up from getting wet or in the recent case didn't 
wake up.

Do rated separations matter?  I've seen fires in the unsprinklered side go 
through code complying rated walls only to be stopped by the sprinklers with no 
fire damage to the sprinklered side.  How about the high rise fires that burn 
until they reached a sprinklered floor.

Does smoke control matter?  If there is residual smoke it's minor and well 
diluted.

Do fire hydrants and access roads matter?  In 10 years with an average of 16 sprinklered fires in St. Paul, MN I was only aware of the use of the FDC 4 times.  And actually 2 of those were for the standpipes in unsprinklered buildings.  I talked to the Chief's on most of those calls about issue they had. 

Fire alarms?  I contented if it's sprinklered fire alarms should not operate.  Fire alarms are to warning people about uncontrolled fires that are a threat.  Uh, if the sprinklers operated is it a threat? Do you know there is a trend in FD's only sending a Chief or one company to investigate water flow alarms or fire alarms.  The FD's get it, the number of alarms where that is the only indication of a problem that result in fire is about 0 (not 0 but real close).  In 18 years of riding big red trucks I never went to a fire that was only reported by an alarm.  These FD's send a full assignment if they get a phone call that follows up on the alarm. 


Basically where is the body count?  I've been on this forum for a very long 
time I don't recall any discussion ever about a fire death in a sprinklered 
building.  I've always asked national figures in conversation about actual fire 
deaths in sprinklered buildings that they have been a part of.  So far none is 
the answer.  Back in '99-'00 when I saw shepparding through the IFC requirement 
for all buildings with an R be sprinkler I asked the committee about their 
knowledge of fire deaths and sprinklers.  Either they had none
or thought I was being rhetorical.   Where is the cost benefit of further
mitigated losses with the other stuff after sprinklers? 


So one might argue about the balanced design crap and the possibility of 
sprinkler failure.  If it's properly designed, installed and maintained has 
there ever been a failure?  Maybe but rare.  We also know really bad sprinkler 
jobs still put out a lot of fire.  We tried all the other fire protection 
schemes with in my opinion limited success.  Talking about the code from 
Hammurabi to the early 1980's.  So if the proper or incorrect sprinklers fail 
we are back to the designs of the yesteryear and we know the outcome.  We have 
the choice to put money into the backup plans which will fail or money into the 
sprinkler to make sure they don't.  This is a cultural shift that is occurring 
since the late 1980's.  And just like our vested interests pushing on direction 
the lobbies for the other interests are arguing the opposite slowing the proper 
transformation.

So I wasn't bashing FPE's.  I also wasn't suggesting how one gets a proper system - that may or may not involve an FPE.  I was summarizing all the other FPE type stuff as marginal effect after proper sprinklers.  

I know there are exceptions to every thing I said.  For every exception anyone can come up with 1000's of examples exist of the normal.  Perhaps someone has knowledge of a fire death in a properly sprinklered building.  I think Joe Hankins once spoke of 4 deaths but I recall something wasn't right.  From a minimum public policy point of view I don't see the point in planning for the exception when they are very, very, very rare. 

Or perhaps it's just my memory?   


Chris Cahill, P.E.
Fire Protection Engineer
Sentry Fire Protection

RE: Boat Storage

[Craig.Prahl]

I think the catch is in their wording, where the system was properly 
operating, so one has to wonder how many deaths did occur in sprinklered 
buildings where the systems were not maintained or properly operating. 

Either way, I'm sure statistically there have far more deaths in unsprinkled 
than sprinkled buildings.


Craig L. Prahl, CET   
Fire Protection Specialist
Mechanical Department
CH2MHILL
Lockwood Greene
1500 International Drive
PO Box 491, Spartanburg, SC  29304-0491
Direct - 864.599.4102
Fax - 864.599.8439
craig.pr...@ch2m.com
http://www.ch2m.com 


-Original Message-
From: sprinklerforum-boun...@firesprinkler.org 
[mailto:sprinklerforum-boun...@firesprinkler.org] On Behalf Of Joe Hankins
Sent: Thursday, January 22, 2009 11:45 AM
To: sprinklerforum@firesprinkler.org
Subject: Re: Boat Storage

Four people died in the fire I am referring to.  On September 7, 1982, an 
early-morning fire at a textile plant in Washington killed four members of the 
National Spinning Company fire brigade.

Joe

craig.pr...@ch2m.com wrote:
 I have heard this quoted from various sources :

 The National Fire Protection Association has no record of more than two 
 deaths in a completely sprinkled building where the system was properly 
 operating. Fire sprinkler systems are very effective and may cut fire deaths 
 by one-half to two-thirds in properties where they are installed. 
 (Congressional Fire Services Institute)


 Craig L. Prahl, CET   
 Fire Protection Specialist
 Mechanical Department
 CH2MHILL
 Lockwood Greene
 1500 International Drive
 PO Box 491, Spartanburg, SC  29304-0491 Direct - 864.599.4102 Fax - 
 864.599.8439 craig.pr...@ch2m.com http://www.ch2m.com


 -Original Message-
 From: sprinklerforum-boun...@firesprinkler.org 
 [mailto:sprinklerforum-boun...@firesprinkler.org] On Behalf Of Chris 
 Cahill
 Sent: Thursday, January 22, 2009 10:20 AM
 To: sprinklerforum@firesprinkler.org
 Subject: RE: Boat Storage

 Given a properly designed, installed and maintained sprinkler system.  

 Do exits matter?  How many cases do we have of a bedroom catching on fire 
 where the sleeping occupant wakes up from getting wet or in the recent case 
 didn't wake up.

 Do rated separations matter?  I've seen fires in the unsprinklered side go 
 through code complying rated walls only to be stopped by the sprinklers with 
 no fire damage to the sprinklered side.  How about the high rise fires that 
 burn until they reached a sprinklered floor.

 Does smoke control matter?  If there is residual smoke it's minor and well 
 diluted.

 Do fire hydrants and access roads matter?  In 10 years with an average of 16 
 sprinklered fires in St. Paul, MN I was only aware of the use of the FDC 4 
 times.  And actually 2 of those were for the standpipes in unsprinklered 
 buildings.  I talked to the Chief's on most of those calls about issue they 
 had. 

 Fire alarms?  I contented if it's sprinklered fire alarms should not operate. 
  Fire alarms are to warning people about uncontrolled fires that are a 
 threat.  Uh, if the sprinklers operated is it a threat? Do you know there is 
 a trend in FD's only sending a Chief or one company to investigate water flow 
 alarms or fire alarms.  The FD's get it, the number of alarms where that is 
 the only indication of a problem that result in fire is about 0 (not 0 but 
 real close).  In 18 years of riding big red trucks I never went to a fire 
 that was only reported by an alarm.  These FD's send a full assignment if 
 they get a phone call that follows up on the alarm. 

 Basically where is the body count?  I've been on this forum for a very long 
 time I don't recall any discussion ever about a fire death in a sprinklered 
 building.  I've always asked national figures in conversation about actual 
 fire deaths in sprinklered buildings that they have been a part of.  So far 
 none is the answer.  Back in '99-'00 when I saw shepparding through the IFC 
 requirement for all buildings with an R be sprinkler I asked the committee 
 about their knowledge of fire deaths and sprinklers.  Either they had none
 or thought I was being rhetorical.   Where is the cost benefit of further
 mitigated losses with the other stuff after sprinklers? 

 So one might argue about the balanced design crap and the possibility of 
 sprinkler failure.  If it's properly designed, installed and maintained has 
 there ever been a failure?  Maybe but rare.  We also know really bad 
 sprinkler jobs still put out a lot of fire.  We tried all the other fire 
 protection schemes with in my opinion limited success.  Talking about the 
 code from Hammurabi to the early 1980's.  So if the proper or incorrect 
 sprinklers fail we are back to the designs of the yesteryear and we know the 
 outcome.  We have the choice to put money into the backup plans which will 
 fail or money into the sprinkler to make sure they don't.  This is a cultural 
 shift that is occurring since the late 1980's.  And just like

RE: Boat Storage

[Chris Cahill]

Ah so there is more to the story.  These were trained members of a fire
brigade.  I give you the training at best for the time was probably not
adequate enough.  The equipment was probably not adequate enough.  But both
are irrelevant.  

As you state there was a proper sprinkler so even with fire brigade
activities I agree that these people should not have died.  So there we have
one documented incident 26 years ago. 

The NFPA probably classified them as fire service getting around apparent
falsity of their statement.  Ever ask NFPA to explain the statement
considering this incident.  But even they should be counted when we talk
about sprinklers and fire death.  (As long as the fire killed them and not
the driving to the station or a heart attack directing traffic) 

Chris 

-Original Message-
From: sprinklerforum-boun...@firesprinkler.org
[mailto:sprinklerforum-boun...@firesprinkler.org] On Behalf Of Joe Hankins
Sent: Thursday, January 22, 2009 10:45 AM
To: sprinklerforum@firesprinkler.org
Subject: Re: Boat Storage

Four people died in the fire I am referring to.  On September 7, 1982, 
an early-morning fire at a textile plant in Washington killed four 
members of the National Spinning Company fire brigade.

Joe

craig.pr...@ch2m.com wrote:
 I have heard this quoted from various sources :

 The National Fire Protection Association has no record of more than two
deaths in a completely sprinkled building where the system was properly
operating. Fire sprinkler systems are very effective and may cut fire deaths
by one-half to two-thirds in properties where they are installed.
(Congressional Fire Services Institute)


 Craig L. Prahl, CET   
 Fire Protection Specialist
 Mechanical Department
 CH2MHILL
 Lockwood Greene
 1500 International Drive
 PO Box 491, Spartanburg, SC  29304-0491
 Direct - 864.599.4102
 Fax - 864.599.8439
 craig.pr...@ch2m.com
 http://www.ch2m.com 


 -Original Message-
 From: sprinklerforum-boun...@firesprinkler.org
[mailto:sprinklerforum-boun...@firesprinkler.org] On Behalf Of Chris Cahill
 Sent: Thursday, January 22, 2009 10:20 AM
 To: sprinklerforum@firesprinkler.org
 Subject: RE: Boat Storage

 Given a properly designed, installed and maintained sprinkler system.  

 Do exits matter?  How many cases do we have of a bedroom catching on fire
where the sleeping occupant wakes up from getting wet or in the recent case
didn't wake up.

 Do rated separations matter?  I've seen fires in the unsprinklered side go
through code complying rated walls only to be stopped by the sprinklers with
no fire damage to the sprinklered side.  How about the high rise fires that
burn until they reached a sprinklered floor.

 Does smoke control matter?  If there is residual smoke it's minor and well
diluted.

 Do fire hydrants and access roads matter?  In 10 years with an average of
16 sprinklered fires in St. Paul, MN I was only aware of the use of the FDC
4 times.  And actually 2 of those were for the standpipes in unsprinklered
buildings.  I talked to the Chief's on most of those calls about issue they
had. 

 Fire alarms?  I contented if it's sprinklered fire alarms should not
operate.  Fire alarms are to warning people about uncontrolled fires that
are a threat.  Uh, if the sprinklers operated is it a threat? Do you know
there is a trend in FD's only sending a Chief or one company to investigate
water flow alarms or fire alarms.  The FD's get it, the number of alarms
where that is the only indication of a problem that result in fire is about
0 (not 0 but real close).  In 18 years of riding big red trucks I never went
to a fire that was only reported by an alarm.  These FD's send a full
assignment if they get a phone call that follows up on the alarm. 

 Basically where is the body count?  I've been on this forum for a very
long time I don't recall any discussion ever about a fire death in a
sprinklered building.  I've always asked national figures in conversation
about actual fire deaths in sprinklered buildings that they have been a part
of.  So far none is the answer.  Back in '99-'00 when I saw shepparding
through the IFC requirement for all buildings with an R be sprinkler I asked
the committee about their knowledge of fire deaths and sprinklers.  Either
they had none
 or thought I was being rhetorical.   Where is the cost benefit of further
 mitigated losses with the other stuff after sprinklers? 

 So one might argue about the balanced design crap and the possibility of
sprinkler failure.  If it's properly designed, installed and maintained has
there ever been a failure?  Maybe but rare.  We also know really bad
sprinkler jobs still put out a lot of fire.  We tried all the other fire
protection schemes with in my opinion limited success.  Talking about the
code from Hammurabi to the early 1980's.  So if the proper or incorrect
sprinklers fail we are back to the designs of the yesteryear and we know the
outcome.  We have the choice to put money into the backup plans which

Re: Boat Storage

[Roland Huggins]

Despite NFPA 303 saying treat as Group A plastic in racks and go to  
NFPA 13, the 13 TC excluded that from Ch 21 for the 2010 edition.  WE  
did add that NFPA 13 has NO guidance for boats on racks.


The FPRF has completed the first phase which was just a study on  
available data.  All their reports are free from the NFPA website.   
THey are attempting to find enough interested parties to start phase 2  
where they do full scale fire tests (got a boat to donate?) and  
hopefully will be able to define the necessary criteria..


Roland

On Jan 15, 2009, at 11:56 AM, Russell wrote:

I remember that not long ago this forum discussed the protection for  
boat
storage facilities and it proved to be quite a problem. Has anyone  
come up
with a satisfactory design for this type commodity/storage  
arrangement? I'm

looking to bid such.







Russell Rewis

Brown Automatic Sprinklers, Inc.

107C Hemlock Street

Valdosta, Georgia 31601

229-244-8130

russ...@brownautomatic.com



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RE: Boat Storage

[Chris Cahill]

Just finished a first quick read.  Thanks Roland for the lead.  First
impression is there is nothing we didn't already know intuitively and
definitely nothing guiding a design thought.  Ignition fluxes and heat
release rates of sample size materials are nice but we already know they are
generally tough to ignite and burn hot and fast.  We already know there are
concealed spaces in the final assembled boats.  Rates and cause of fire
aren't that important to us.  Our work is prefaced with a fire occurring
doesn't matter much if the cause is the forklift, battery on board or arson.
I'm not knocking the report it is good but us sprinkler guys and gals have a
more limited focus.  The report is also planned for many interests that may
not know this background info.  And hey if it's properly sprinklered (to an
extent) fire protection engineering is a marginal concern.  

So this report doesn't help with the properly sprinklered question.  I was
really hoping more information would be present about losses and the
sprinkler design that may have been there.  I have from a reliable source
there have been significant losses in sprinklered facilities.  Sure would be
nice to know what design didn't work and at least shoot for more.  But that
info is probably tied up in litigation.  Just this morning I put together a
budget and in my letter wrote - no code - no testing - no reason to believe
any sprinkler design is capable of protecting this hazard. 

Chris Cahill, P.E.
Fire Protection Engineer
Sentry Fire Protection, Inc.
 
763-658-4483
763-658-4921 fax
 
Email: chr...@sentryfiremn.com
 
Mail: P.O. Box 69
Waverly, MN 55390
 
Location: 4439 Hwy 12 SW
  Waverly, MN 55390
-Original Message-
From: sprinklerforum-boun...@firesprinkler.org
[mailto:sprinklerforum-boun...@firesprinkler.org] On Behalf Of Todd Williams
Sent: Wednesday, January 21, 2009 4:23 PM
To: sprinklerforum@firesprinkler.org
Subject: Re: Boat Storage

There are plenty of old abandoned boats around that could probably be 
had for testing. (I have a couple of classic fiberglass runabout that 
will NOT be donated). It would just be a matter of beating the 
bushes. I've seen the FPRF report, but have yet to go through the 
whole thing. I'll be very interested to see how testing turns out.


At 03:33 PM 1/21/2009, you wrote:
Despite NFPA 303 saying treat as Group A plastic in racks and go to
NFPA 13, the 13 TC excluded that from Ch 21 for the 2010 edition.  WE
did add that NFPA 13 has NO guidance for boats on racks.

The FPRF has completed the first phase which was just a study on
available data.  All their reports are free from the NFPA website.
THey are attempting to find enough interested parties to start phase 2
where they do full scale fire tests (got a boat to donate?) and
hopefully will be able to define the necessary criteria..

Roland

On Jan 15, 2009, at 11:56 AM, Russell wrote:

I remember that not long ago this forum discussed the protection for
boat
storage facilities and it proved to be quite a problem. Has anyone
come up
with a satisfactory design for this type commodity/storage
arrangement? I'm
looking to bid such.







Russell Rewis

Brown Automatic Sprinklers, Inc.

107C Hemlock Street

Valdosta, Georgia 31601

229-244-8130

russ...@brownautomatic.com



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Todd G. Williams, PE
Fire Protection Design/Consulting
Stonington, Connecticut
www.fpdc.com
860.535.2080  
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RE: Boat Storage

[Todd Williams]

  And hey if it's properly sprinklered (to an
extent) fire protection engineering is a marginal concern.


Curious comment. Care to expand on that?


Todd G. Williams, PE
Fire Protection Design/Consulting
Stonington, Connecticut
www.fpdc.com
860.535.2080  
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Re: Boat Storage

[Todd Williams]

Russell,

I assume you mean rack storage of boats. I have a friend in that is 
involved with that business and according to him, no. (He asked to to 
do some consulting on this issue, but when I listed all of the 
problems and considerations, the offer mysteriously disappeared.) I 
haven't seen anything in this industry, but I'm usually the last to 
know. Fortunately, mine are stacked one high.




At 02:56 PM 1/15/2009, you wrote:

I remember that not long ago this forum discussed the protection for boat
storage facilities and it proved to be quite a problem. Has anyone come up
with a satisfactory design for this type commodity/storage arrangement? I'm
looking to bid such.







Russell Rewis

Brown Automatic Sprinklers, Inc.

107C Hemlock Street

Valdosta, Georgia 31601

229-244-8130

russ...@brownautomatic.com



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Todd G. Williams, PE
Fire Protection Design/Consulting
Stonington, Connecticut
www.fpdc.com
860.535.2080  
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Re: Boat Storage

[me]

Russell, There was an interesting artical in summer 2004 Sprinkler Quarterly. 
Titled Storage of Boats. Written by Kenneth Isman PE
--Original Message--
From: Russell
Sender: sprinklerforum-boun...@firesprinkler.org
To: AFSA
ReplyTo: sprinklerforum@firesprinkler.org
Subject: Boat Storage
Sent: Jan 15, 2009 2:56 PM

I remember that not long ago this forum discussed the protection for boat
storage facilities and it proved to be quite a problem. Has anyone come up
with a satisfactory design for this type commodity/storage arrangement? I'm
looking to bid such.

 

 

 

Russell Rewis

Brown Automatic Sprinklers, Inc.

107C Hemlock Street

Valdosta, Georgia 31601

229-244-8130

russ...@brownautomatic.com

 

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RE: Boat Storage

[Matthew J. Willis]

http://www.mail-archive.com/sprinklerforum@firesprinkler.org/msg04310.html

Follow this thread.

Thanks Mark. I could not remember where that article was.
Russell, I spent alot of time on one of these. You really need to read that
article by Mr. Isman. You also need to do online research and read ALL of
the fire reports you can find. Look at all the pics. I have seen triple
1000gpm nozzles on a SINGLE Story structure, and it lost in minutes..
Very Very much thin ice on these...

R/

Matt

Matthew J. Willis
Norred Fire Systems L.L.C.
318-387-1134 Voice
318-387-1163 Facsimile
m...@norredfire.com

-Original Message-
From: sprinklerforum-boun...@firesprinkler.org
[mailto:sprinklerforum-boun...@firesprinkler.org] On Behalf Of
m...@markeckard.com
Sent: Thursday, January 15, 2009 2:41 PM
To: sprinklerforum@firesprinkler.org
Subject: Re: Boat Storage

Russell, There was an interesting artical in summer 2004 Sprinkler
Quarterly. Titled Storage of Boats. Written by Kenneth Isman PE
--Original Message--
From: Russell
Sender: sprinklerforum-boun...@firesprinkler.org
To: AFSA
ReplyTo: sprinklerforum@firesprinkler.org
Subject: Boat Storage
Sent: Jan 15, 2009 2:56 PM

I remember that not long ago this forum discussed the protection for boat
storage facilities and it proved to be quite a problem. Has anyone come up
with a satisfactory design for this type commodity/storage arrangement? I'm
looking to bid such.







Russell Rewis

Brown Automatic Sprinklers, Inc.

107C Hemlock Street

Valdosta, Georgia 31601

229-244-8130

russ...@brownautomatic.com



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Sent from my BlackBerry Smartphone provided by Alltel

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RE: Boat Storage

[Russell]

Thanks all for the response. I read the article by Mr. Isman and found it to
be very informative and in agreement with everyone else that the problem is
a large one and very much still is unresolved. The Fire Protection and
Research Foundation report I'll have to take home tonight to study over. And
yes, what I'm looking at is rack. All the storage facilities I've ever been
in had no fire protection system. I guess the proprietor paid dearly for
insurance or the boat owners had good insurance themselves. I've noticed
that to own a boat you need money to burn (no pun intended) so I'll just
have to keep going to the boat shows and sitting in them pretending and
wishing. For now I suppose I'll pass on this bid, give a copy of the
articles and forum archives you guys offered up and wait for NFPA to cover
my butt.

Thanks again for your input. As always, very helpful.


Russell Rewis
Brown Automatic Sprinklers, Inc.
107C Hemlock Street
Valdosta, Georgia 31601
229-244-8130
russ...@brownautomatic.com


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RE: Boat Storage

[Todd Williams]

Does anybody know where I could find a copy of Ken's article? I'd be 
interested.



At 03:53 PM 1/15/2009, you wrote:

http://www.mail-archive.com/sprinklerforum@firesprinkler.org/msg04310.html

Follow this thread.

Thanks Mark. I could not remember where that article was.
Russell, I spent alot of time on one of these. You really need to read that
article by Mr. Isman. You also need to do online research and read ALL of
the fire reports you can find. Look at all the pics. I have seen triple
1000gpm nozzles on a SINGLE Story structure, and it lost in minutes..
Very Very much thin ice on these...

R/

Matt

Matthew J. Willis
Norred Fire Systems L.L.C.
318-387-1134 Voice
318-387-1163 Facsimile
m...@norredfire.com

-Original Message-
From: sprinklerforum-boun...@firesprinkler.org
[mailto:sprinklerforum-boun...@firesprinkler.org] On Behalf Of
m...@markeckard.com
Sent: Thursday, January 15, 2009 2:41 PM
To: sprinklerforum@firesprinkler.org
Subject: Re: Boat Storage

Russell, There was an interesting artical in summer 2004 Sprinkler
Quarterly. Titled Storage of Boats. Written by Kenneth Isman PE
--Original Message--
From: Russell
Sender: sprinklerforum-boun...@firesprinkler.org
To: AFSA
ReplyTo: sprinklerforum@firesprinkler.org
Subject: Boat Storage
Sent: Jan 15, 2009 2:56 PM

I remember that not long ago this forum discussed the protection for boat
storage facilities and it proved to be quite a problem. Has anyone come up
with a satisfactory design for this type commodity/storage arrangement? I'm
looking to bid such.







Russell Rewis

Brown Automatic Sprinklers, Inc.

107C Hemlock Street

Valdosta, Georgia 31601

229-244-8130

russ...@brownautomatic.com



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Sent from my BlackBerry Smartphone provided by Alltel

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Todd G. Williams, PE
Fire Protection Design/Consulting
Stonington, Connecticut
www.fpdc.com
860.535.2080  
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RE: boat storage

[George Church]

At a minimum, you have Extra 2 due to shielding.
I shudder to think of modular homes stacked in racks, continuing my
parallel.

glc

-Original Message-
From: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
[mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] On Behalf Of Roland
Huggins
Sent: Friday, August 10, 2007 10:56 AM
To: sprinklerforum@firesprinkler.org
Subject: Re: boat storage

The issue is not boats in a berth sitting in the water.  That one is  
simple since it is just a building covering a low level of storage.   
He is asking about boats stored on racks several levels high.  It's a  
nasty item.  No contractor in their right mind should attempt to  
DESIGN it.  Even with the engineers copying designs from contractors  
in the Florida panhandle, LEAVE IT TO THE ENGINEER.  Now I can say no  
engineer in their right mind would touch it unless the client was  
willing to make some very limiting modifications to the layout of the  
racks.

Many of the facilities have adjustable racks to accommodate boats of  
different heights.  I've heard of people putting side wall heads in  
the columns to cover the area beneath the boats.  You think maybe  
they were ignoring that you need the heads to activate in order for  
the water throw to count as covering the area?  Group A plastics on  
racks with LOTS of surface area and LOTS of air flow is not a recipe  
for a slow burning, modest fire.

Speaking of racks, these also often do double duty by supporting the  
roof as well as the boats.  You think they include the weight of a  
water filled boat as part of the load for designing the rack?

Roland

On Aug 9, 2007, at 2:24 PM, [EMAIL PROTECTED]  
[EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote:


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RE: boat storage

[Craig.Prahl]

No argument from me, just regurgitating what was written.   I have to
argue the issue of risk versus code requirements all the time with those
who don't comprehend that their perception of risk has nothing to do
with the requirements set forth by the codes we are required to follow.


Craig L. Prahl, CET
Fire Protection Group
Mechanical Department
CH2MHILL
Lockwood Greene
1500 International Drive
PO Box 491, Spartanburg, SC  29304-0491
Direct - 864.599.4102
Fax - 864.599.8439
[EMAIL PROTECTED]
http://www.lg.com


-Original Message-
From: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
[mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] On Behalf Of Roland
Huggins
Sent: Friday, August 10, 2007 2:11 PM
To: sprinklerforum@firesprinkler.org
Subject: Re: boat storage

Let's have a philosophy discussion.

The aspect of risk and whether a fire will start is an aspect
influencing performance based BUILDING design and codes issues on WHEN
protection is needed but it as NOTHING to do with sprinkler design.
Once the decision has been made that sprinklers are required, everything
is driven by the philosophy that a fire HAS started, what's required to
control it..

Roland

On Aug 10, 2007, at 8:28 AM, [EMAIL PROTECTED]
[EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote:

 In doing some reading on the topic is appears from a risk standpoint 
 that the boats stored in the rack configuration had a lower risk of 
 being involved in a fire than those which are moored in the water 
 under the dock roof.  Reason being that those stored on the racks were

 drained of fuel and had batteries disconnected and had no access from 
 the owners or others during storage.  The boats that were stored in 
 the water were often larger and while docked were involved in more 
 on-board repair work as well as having on-board heaters running (while

 unoccupied) during cold weather to prevent plumbing pipes from 
 freezing.  It appears that heaters were a common source of on-board 
 fires.  Ignition of flammable vapors ranked up there as well.

 But agreed, the rack storage arrangement is a very complex situation 
 with little to no guidance from the Code realm.

 In one recent project this situation came up and NFPA 312 Standard 
 for Fire Protection of Vessels During Construction, Conversion, Repair

 and Lay-up was applied along with NFPA 306 Standard for the Control 
 of Gas
 Hazards on Vessels.   Note: that this was not a pleasure craft  
 facility.
 But there was no way NFPA 13 could be applied to this facility.  NFPA
 312 has very strict procedural guidelines and also ties into some CFR
 Regs.   Those tightly restrictive procedures allow for a more  
 simplistic
 approach to fire protection.





 Craig L. Prahl, CET
 Fire Protection Group
 Mechanical Department
 CH2MHILL
 Lockwood Greene
 1500 International Drive
 PO Box 491, Spartanburg, SC  29304-0491 Direct - 864.599.4102 Fax - 
 864.599.8439 [EMAIL PROTECTED] http://www.lg.com


 -Original Message-
 From: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
 [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] On Behalf Of Greg 
 McGahan
 Sent: Friday, August 10, 2007 11:02 AM
 To: sprinklerforum@firesprinkler.org
 Subject: RE: boat storage

 True that.

 Some of the steel people are beginning to figure the weight of the 
 water in the rack design.

 This issue MUST be addressed and put to rest by the IBC, NFPA, FM or 
 someone soon, or I think disaster is in the wings.

 I have no replies with successful saves IN a boat storage facility 
 from this forum.

 Greg

 Living Water Fire Protection, LLC
 1160 McKenzie Road
 Cantonment, FL 32533
 850-937-1850
 Fax: 850-937-1852


 -Original Message-
 From: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
 [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] On Behalf Of Roland 
 Huggins
 Sent: Friday, August 10, 2007 9:56 AM
 To: sprinklerforum@firesprinkler.org
 Subject: Re: boat storage

 The issue is not boats in a berth sitting in the water.  That one is 
 simple since it is just a building covering a low level of storage.
 He is asking about boats stored on racks several levels high.  It's a 
 nasty item.  No contractor in their right mind should attempt to 
 DESIGN it.  Even with the engineers copying designs from contractors 
 in the Florida panhandle, LEAVE IT TO THE ENGINEER.  Now I can say no 
 engineer in their right mind would touch it unless the client was 
 willing to make some very limiting modifications to the layout of the 
 racks.

 Many of the facilities have adjustable racks to accommodate boats of 
 different heights.  I've heard of people putting side wall heads in 
 the columns to cover the area beneath the boats.  You think maybe they

 were ignoring that you need the heads to activate in order for the 
 water throw to count as covering the area?  Group A plastics on racks 
 with LOTS of surface area and LOTS of air flow is not a recipe for a 
 slow burning, modest fire.

 Speaking of racks, these also often do double duty by supporting the 
 roof as well as the boats.  You think they include the weight of a 
 water filled boat as part of the load for designing the rack?

 Roland

RE: boat storage

[Craig.Prahl]

Unless there's a major fire event at a structure like this there will in
all likelihood not be any serious testing or modeling of how to protect
them.  Few people will become outraged at a dock fire, (well except the
owners of boats stored) so unless there is another Charleston type
incident at one of these storage facilities why would any insurance or
code agency expend the effort to force a change in what's already in
place? 

It seems in many case that code changes are more reactive than
proactive.




Craig L. Prahl, CET
Fire Protection Group
Mechanical Department
CH2MHILL
Lockwood Greene
1500 International Drive
PO Box 491, Spartanburg, SC  29304-0491
Direct - 864.599.4102
Fax - 864.599.8439
[EMAIL PROTECTED]
http://www.lg.com


-Original Message-
From: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
[mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] On Behalf Of Greg
McGahan
Sent: Friday, August 10, 2007 2:49 PM
To: sprinklerforum@firesprinkler.org
Subject: RE: boat storage

Because at this point in time the philosophy is to build a cheap
structure and rake in money. Add Hi X foam would add a tremendous amount
of money to the structure with the huge open doors that are open almost
all of the time that would have to automatically close, etc. 

Would there also be an environmental concern being, oddly enough for
these facilities, right on the water?

The only way this will get resolved is to make it code to do whatever,
otherwise they will keep building the cheap buildings and we will keep
discussing it. The truth is that someone has to protect them and
somebody is going to design them. Do we leave these to the low ballers
and unscrupulous companies doing the absolute minimum? Or do we try to
do something that would arguably be at least better?

How bout this argument from Matt? NFPA 303 states protect in accordance
with 13 for plastics with solid shelves. If we follow that and layout
based on Chapter 12, do we not fall under the umbrella of NFPA?


Living Water Fire Protection, LLC
1160 McKenzie Road
Cantonment, FL 32533
850-937-1850
Fax: 850-937-1852


-Original Message-
From: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
[mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] On Behalf Of Ford,
Charles
Sent: Friday, August 10, 2007 12:52 PM
To: sprinklerforum@firesprinkler.org
Subject: RE: boat storage

Thom, I'm with you on this Hi_X! . I suggested it last time we had this
discussion and got no nibbles on my bait. I'd like to see some tests
tho. 


Burton Ford
SET, CFPS
Member AFAA
[EMAIL PROTECTED]
267-487-1000
Fax 267-487-1010

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 -Original Message-
From:   [EMAIL PROTECTED]
[mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]  On Behalf Of Thom
McMahon
Sent:   Friday, August 10, 2007 1:46 PM
To: sprinklerforum@firesprinkler.org
Subject:Re: boat storage

I have always thought that this is a storage configuration that beg's
for a High Expansion Foam Solution.
Lighter than water, tends to fill all the readily accessible spaces
including cockpits and under boats.
Works for fuel fires and would seem to work for most Resin based fiber
Glass fires as well.
Fairly easy clean up, and containment might even be possible with those
hanging strip clear curtains the forklift can drive thru.
Anybody on the HiX committee have any words of caution? (I'll probably
never

see another one of these, here, but they're interesting none the less.)

Thom McMahon
Firetech, Inc.
2560 Copper Ridge Dr
Steamboat Springs, CO 80488-2136
Tel: 970-879-7952
Fax: 970-879-7926
- Original Message -
From: Greg McGahan [EMAIL PROTECTED]
To: sprinklerforum@firesprinkler.org
Sent: Friday, August 10, 2007 9:01 AM
Subject: RE: boat storage


 True that.

 Some of the steel people are beginning to figure the weight of the
water 
 in
 the rack design.

 This issue MUST be addressed and put to rest by the IBC, NFPA, FM or 
 someone
 soon, or I think disaster is in the wings.

 I have no replies with successful saves IN a boat storage facility
from 
 this
 forum.

 Greg

 Living Water Fire Protection, LLC
 1160 McKenzie Road
 Cantonment, FL 32533
 850-937-1850
 Fax: 850-937-1852


 -Original Message-
 From: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
 [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] On Behalf Of Roland
 Huggins
 Sent: Friday, August 10, 2007 9:56 AM
 To: sprinklerforum@firesprinkler.org
 Subject: Re: boat storage

 The issue is not boats in a berth sitting in the water.  That one is
 simple since it is just a building

RE: boat storage

[John Drucker]

Craig,

Ever heard the saying, Code Books are History Books written in Blood ?
That defines reactive thinking. 

As far as boat storage goes, or for that matter any building or
structure, the public expects the fire department to save lives and
preserve property. While the fire service's primary focus is life safety
we are nonetheless expected to make an attempt at saving property.
Ironically the fully involved job's present the lower risk to
firefighters, put up the master streams and pour on the water. Yes there
have been firefighter deaths at these, however the majority occur when
firefighters have to enter a building or structure.

Charleston was an example of this. The original call was an outside fire
to the rear of the building. As we now know the fire entered the
building requiring firefighters to mount an interior attack. What
happened to those men is written in stone. Had fire sprinklers been
installed the fire department would most likely have written Exterior
Rubbish Fire with Minor Damage/Extension to the Adjacent Structure,
instead they wrote Fully Involved Structure Fire with Fire Service
Casualties.

One boat on fire on the third tier of the rack requiring firefighters to
get up close and personal is the hazard. How should they be sprinklered,
well we'll leave that to the experts.

John Drucker
Fire Protection Subcode Official (AHJ)
Fire Officer/Firefighter
New Jersey

Safe Buildings Save Lives !

 -Original Message-
From: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
[mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] On Behalf Of
[EMAIL PROTECTED]
Sent: Monday, August 13, 2007 8:32 AM
To: sprinklerforum@firesprinkler.org
Subject: RE: boat storage

Unless there's a major fire event at a structure like this there will in
all likelihood not be any serious testing or modeling of how to protect
them.  Few people will become outraged at a dock fire, (well except the
owners of boats stored) so unless there is another Charleston type
incident at one of these storage facilities why would any insurance or
code agency expend the effort to force a change in what's already in
place? 

It seems in many case that code changes are more reactive than
proactive.




Craig L. Prahl, CET
Fire Protection Group
Mechanical Department
CH2MHILL
Lockwood Greene
1500 International Drive
PO Box 491, Spartanburg, SC  29304-0491
Direct - 864.599.4102
Fax - 864.599.8439
[EMAIL PROTECTED]
http://www.lg.com


-Original Message-
From: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
[mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] On Behalf Of Greg
McGahan
Sent: Friday, August 10, 2007 2:49 PM
To: sprinklerforum@firesprinkler.org
Subject: RE: boat storage

Because at this point in time the philosophy is to build a cheap
structure and rake in money. Add Hi X foam would add a tremendous amount
of money to the structure with the huge open doors that are open almost
all of the time that would have to automatically close, etc. 

Would there also be an environmental concern being, oddly enough for
these facilities, right on the water?

The only way this will get resolved is to make it code to do whatever,
otherwise they will keep building the cheap buildings and we will keep
discussing it. The truth is that someone has to protect them and
somebody is going to design them. Do we leave these to the low ballers
and unscrupulous companies doing the absolute minimum? Or do we try to
do something that would arguably be at least better?

How bout this argument from Matt? NFPA 303 states protect in accordance
with 13 for plastics with solid shelves. If we follow that and layout
based on Chapter 12, do we not fall under the umbrella of NFPA?


Living Water Fire Protection, LLC
1160 McKenzie Road
Cantonment, FL 32533
850-937-1850
Fax: 850-937-1852


-Original Message-
From: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
[mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] On Behalf Of Ford,
Charles
Sent: Friday, August 10, 2007 12:52 PM
To: sprinklerforum@firesprinkler.org
Subject: RE: boat storage

Thom, I'm with you on this Hi_X! . I suggested it last time we had this
discussion and got no nibbles on my bait. I'd like to see some tests
tho. 


Burton Ford
SET, CFPS
Member AFAA
[EMAIL PROTECTED]
267-487-1000
Fax 267-487-1010

This e-mail transmission contains information that is intended to be
confidential and privileged.  If you receive this e-mail and you are not
a named addressee you are hereby notified that you are not authorized to
read, print, retain, copy or disseminate this communication without the
consent of the sender and that doing so is prohibited and may be
unlawful.  Please reply to the message immediately by informing the
sender that the message was misdirected.  After replying, please delete
and otherwise erase it and any attachments from your computer system.
Your assistance in correcting this error is appreciated.  Thank you.
Cintas Corporation

 -Original Message-
From:   [EMAIL PROTECTED]
[mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]  On Behalf Of Thom
McMahon
Sent:   Friday, August 10, 2007 1:46 PM
To: sprinklerforum@firesprinkler.org
Subject:Re: boat

RE: boat storage

[Greg McGahan]

No offense intended as I am probably the least of men on this forum: but
apparently there are no experts in this scenario.

Hence the ongoing discussion.

Why do we have to wait for death to respond to a question in this country?

Greg

Living Water Fire Protection, LLC
1160 McKenzie Road
Cantonment, FL 32533
850-937-1850
Fax: 850-937-1852


-Original Message-
From: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
[mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] On Behalf Of John Drucker
Sent: Monday, August 13, 2007 7:57 AM
To: sprinklerforum@firesprinkler.org
Subject: RE: boat storage

Craig,

Ever heard the saying, Code Books are History Books written in Blood ?
That defines reactive thinking. 

As far as boat storage goes, or for that matter any building or
structure, the public expects the fire department to save lives and
preserve property. While the fire service's primary focus is life safety
we are nonetheless expected to make an attempt at saving property.
Ironically the fully involved job's present the lower risk to
firefighters, put up the master streams and pour on the water. Yes there
have been firefighter deaths at these, however the majority occur when
firefighters have to enter a building or structure.

Charleston was an example of this. The original call was an outside fire
to the rear of the building. As we now know the fire entered the
building requiring firefighters to mount an interior attack. What
happened to those men is written in stone. Had fire sprinklers been
installed the fire department would most likely have written Exterior
Rubbish Fire with Minor Damage/Extension to the Adjacent Structure,
instead they wrote Fully Involved Structure Fire with Fire Service
Casualties.

One boat on fire on the third tier of the rack requiring firefighters to
get up close and personal is the hazard. How should they be sprinklered,
well we'll leave that to the experts.

John Drucker
Fire Protection Subcode Official (AHJ)
Fire Officer/Firefighter
New Jersey

Safe Buildings Save Lives !

 -Original Message-
From: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
[mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] On Behalf Of
[EMAIL PROTECTED]
Sent: Monday, August 13, 2007 8:32 AM
To: sprinklerforum@firesprinkler.org
Subject: RE: boat storage

Unless there's a major fire event at a structure like this there will in
all likelihood not be any serious testing or modeling of how to protect
them.  Few people will become outraged at a dock fire, (well except the
owners of boats stored) so unless there is another Charleston type
incident at one of these storage facilities why would any insurance or
code agency expend the effort to force a change in what's already in
place? 

It seems in many case that code changes are more reactive than
proactive.




Craig L. Prahl, CET
Fire Protection Group
Mechanical Department
CH2MHILL
Lockwood Greene
1500 International Drive
PO Box 491, Spartanburg, SC  29304-0491
Direct - 864.599.4102
Fax - 864.599.8439
[EMAIL PROTECTED]
http://www.lg.com


-Original Message-
From: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
[mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] On Behalf Of Greg
McGahan
Sent: Friday, August 10, 2007 2:49 PM
To: sprinklerforum@firesprinkler.org
Subject: RE: boat storage

Because at this point in time the philosophy is to build a cheap
structure and rake in money. Add Hi X foam would add a tremendous amount
of money to the structure with the huge open doors that are open almost
all of the time that would have to automatically close, etc. 

Would there also be an environmental concern being, oddly enough for
these facilities, right on the water?

The only way this will get resolved is to make it code to do whatever,
otherwise they will keep building the cheap buildings and we will keep
discussing it. The truth is that someone has to protect them and
somebody is going to design them. Do we leave these to the low ballers
and unscrupulous companies doing the absolute minimum? Or do we try to
do something that would arguably be at least better?

How bout this argument from Matt? NFPA 303 states protect in accordance
with 13 for plastics with solid shelves. If we follow that and layout
based on Chapter 12, do we not fall under the umbrella of NFPA?


Living Water Fire Protection, LLC
1160 McKenzie Road
Cantonment, FL 32533
850-937-1850
Fax: 850-937-1852


-Original Message-
From: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
[mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] On Behalf Of Ford,
Charles
Sent: Friday, August 10, 2007 12:52 PM
To: sprinklerforum@firesprinkler.org
Subject: RE: boat storage

Thom, I'm with you on this Hi_X! . I suggested it last time we had this
discussion and got no nibbles on my bait. I'd like to see some tests
tho. 


Burton Ford
SET, CFPS
Member AFAA
[EMAIL PROTECTED]
267-487-1000
Fax 267-487-1010

This e-mail transmission contains information that is intended to be
confidential and privileged.  If you receive this e-mail and you are not
a named addressee you are hereby notified that you are not authorized to
read, print, retain, copy or disseminate this communication without the
consent of the sender

Re: boat storage

[PLGAUGHAN]

Back in April I attended a meeting of the New England Chapter of ASCET  which 
was held at FM Global's test laboratory and during our tour which included  a 
live fire demonstration we saw that they were bringing in boats to conduct  
fire test on them. We didn't get to see those tests but I am sure FM gained 
some  valuable information from the tests. Even though FM Global concerns are 
for 
 their clients I am sure if you contact them they would help you out.
 
Phil  

Philip L.  Gaughan, S.E.T.
VP Northeast Region of ASCET
NICET Board of  Governors
215-850-1672




** Get a sneak peek of the all-new AOL at 
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RE: boat storage

[George Church]

Money and politics?

glc

-Original Message-
From: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
[mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] On Behalf Of Greg McGahan
Sent: Monday, August 13, 2007 9:16 AM
To: sprinklerforum@firesprinkler.org
Subject: RE: boat storage

No offense intended as I am probably the least of men on this forum: but
apparently there are no experts in this scenario.

Hence the ongoing discussion.

Why do we have to wait for death to respond to a question in this country?

Greg

Living Water Fire Protection, LLC
1160 McKenzie Road
Cantonment, FL 32533
850-937-1850
Fax: 850-937-1852


-Original Message-
From: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
[mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] On Behalf Of John Drucker
Sent: Monday, August 13, 2007 7:57 AM
To: sprinklerforum@firesprinkler.org
Subject: RE: boat storage

Craig,

Ever heard the saying, Code Books are History Books written in Blood ?
That defines reactive thinking. 



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Re: boat storage

[Todd Williams - work]

How many design teams for projects like this have Fire Protection 
Engineers?  Up here, zero. (For that matter, how many projects in 
general have Fire Protection Engineers?) The team consists of a 
metal building manufacturer and a rack consultant. The mechanicals 
are design-build; Provide sprinklers per State Code. (This is one 
of the problems with the whole design-build concept. It just sluffs 
off the engineering responsibility to the contractors, who, if lucky, 
may have a NICET III doing design and responsible for coming up with 
criteria, if the salesman didn't already do that part.) As long as 
that is happening, there are not going to more than random attempts 
at designing an adequate system.


My point is that we need to solve the problem and not just push the 
responsibility off to the next level. Whereas the boat rack industry 
may be somewhat small, the Marine Trades Association is a large and 
well organized group. There needs to be some research and consensus.


At 06:43 PM 8/10/2007, you wrote:

I stick with my original statement.  IT is up to the ENGINEER that is
working with the team designing the building.  If that team doesn't
want to do anything that limits the flexibility on storing racks then
any engineer that remains on the team is insane.

As already stated, it's a group A plastic in racks and with the
amount of blocked racks it falls in the solid shelf category.  The
problem for the poor dummy that accepts the liability of a  job with
no limits on the racks (either engineer or contractor) is how do you
locate the in-rack sprinklers (when they are modifying the individual
rack heights)?.  Next question (even when racks are relative fixed),
how do you locate the in-racks so they actually activate under those
curved hulls?  One I heard about installed a ton of in-racks located
with them directly below each boat and on both sides of each boat.
Not much flexibility after that.

What has FM recommended when you have a grouping of obstructions that
when combined are wide  enough to be a problem but not solid enough
to capture much heat (also they use to do the same under a big
diameter pipe)?  Maybe a flat, solid barrier.  Don't see many boat
storage racks incorporating them.

AT least the boat storage folks seem to be a bunch of individuals
fumbling in the dark verses a large industry knowingly embracing bad
fire protection (and who effectively blocked changes to 13 on the
floor of a annual technical session).  So it could be worse.

Roland


Todd G. Williams, PE
Fire Protection Design/Consulting
Stonington, Connecticut
860-535-2080
www.fpdc.com  


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Re: boat storage

[Thom McMahon]

I have always thought that this is a storage configuration that beg's for a 
High Expansion Foam Solution.
Lighter than water, tends to fill all the readily accessible spaces 
including cockpits and under boats.
Works for fuel fires and would seem to work for most Resin based fiber 
Glass fires as well.
Fairly easy clean up, and containment might even be possible with those 
hanging strip clear curtains the forklift can drive thru.
Anybody on the HiX committee have any words of caution? (I'll probably never 
see another one of these, here, but they're interesting none the less.)


Thom McMahon
Firetech, Inc.
2560 Copper Ridge Dr
Steamboat Springs, CO 80488-2136
Tel: 970-879-7952
Fax: 970-879-7926
- Original Message - 
From: Greg McGahan [EMAIL PROTECTED]

To: sprinklerforum@firesprinkler.org
Sent: Friday, August 10, 2007 9:01 AM
Subject: RE: boat storage



True that.

Some of the steel people are beginning to figure the weight of the water 
in

the rack design.

This issue MUST be addressed and put to rest by the IBC, NFPA, FM or 
someone

soon, or I think disaster is in the wings.

I have no replies with successful saves IN a boat storage facility from 
this

forum.

Greg

Living Water Fire Protection, LLC
1160 McKenzie Road
Cantonment, FL 32533
850-937-1850
Fax: 850-937-1852


-Original Message-
From: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
[mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] On Behalf Of Roland
Huggins
Sent: Friday, August 10, 2007 9:56 AM
To: sprinklerforum@firesprinkler.org
Subject: Re: boat storage

The issue is not boats in a berth sitting in the water.  That one is
simple since it is just a building covering a low level of storage.
He is asking about boats stored on racks several levels high.  It's a
nasty item.  No contractor in their right mind should attempt to
DESIGN it.  Even with the engineers copying designs from contractors
in the Florida panhandle, LEAVE IT TO THE ENGINEER.  Now I can say no
engineer in their right mind would touch it unless the client was
willing to make some very limiting modifications to the layout of the
racks.

Many of the facilities have adjustable racks to accommodate boats of
different heights.  I've heard of people putting side wall heads in
the columns to cover the area beneath the boats.  You think maybe
they were ignoring that you need the heads to activate in order for
the water throw to count as covering the area?  Group A plastics on
racks with LOTS of surface area and LOTS of air flow is not a recipe
for a slow burning, modest fire.

Speaking of racks, these also often do double duty by supporting the
roof as well as the boats.  You think they include the weight of a
water filled boat as part of the load for designing the rack?

Roland

On Aug 9, 2007, at 2:24 PM, [EMAIL PROTECTED]
[EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote:


Are you having to prove the worth of sprinklers in this type of
installation?


Any idea of the value of loss in storage docks WITHOUT sprinklers?


Craig L. Prahl, CET
Fire Protection Group
Mechanical Department
CH2MHILL
Lockwood Greene
1500 International Drive
PO Box 491, Spartanburg, SC  29304-0491
Direct - 864.599.4102
Fax - 864.599.8439
[EMAIL PROTECTED]
http://www.lg.com


-Original Message-
From: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
[mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] On Behalf Of Greg
McGahan
Sent: Thursday, August 09, 2007 4:41 PM
To: sprinklerforum@firesprinkler.org
Subject: boat storage

I know this subject has been thoroughly abused so let's try a
different
angle.

Does anyone know of any successful saves due to a sprinkler system
in a
boat storage facility?

This issue is not going to go away and there is only going to be
more of
them built.

Greg

Living Water Fire Protection, LLC
1160 McKenzie Road
Cantonment, FL 32533
850-937-1850
Fax: 850-937-1852

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RE: boat storage

[Kurt Kingston]

Same in this NW Washington State area; boats loaded with fuel and full
gear. The storage operators even advertise how quickly they can have
your boat in the water after you call them.
The boat rack issues seem very similar to Pod Storage Facility concerns,
but with Roland H's additional comment of water filled boat weights and
structural support.
I'm not very fond of adding more technology to our sprinkler systems,
but it seems that the only hope of dealing with boat racks or pod
storage is to use rack deluge zones capable of multiple types of sensing
in addition to the overhead system.
But now we have no testing, applicable standards, or guidelines for
either.
Kurt Kingston
Commercial Fire Protection Inc.

-Original Message-
From: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
[mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] On Behalf Of Cliff
Whitfield
Sent: Friday, August 10, 2007 9:29 AM
To: sprinklerforum@firesprinkler.org
Subject: RE: boat storage

Craig,

The boats that are stored in these facilities around this part of the
country do not have the fuel tanks purged or the batteries disconnected.
They are usually 18' to 25' pleasure/ski/fishing boats that can be
removed
from the rack, dropped in the water and ready to go in a few minutes.

Like someone has already mentioned, this is the kind of job to walk away
from until there is definite guidance given by an NFPA standard.

Cliff Whitfield
Fire Design, Inc.

-Original Message-
From: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
[mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] On Behalf Of
[EMAIL PROTECTED]
Sent: Friday, August 10, 2007 10:29 AM
To: sprinklerforum@firesprinkler.org
Subject: RE: boat storage

In doing some reading on the topic is appears from a risk standpoint
that the boats stored in the rack configuration had a lower risk of
being involved in a fire than those which are moored in the water under
the dock roof.  Reason being that those stored on the racks were drained
of fuel and had batteries disconnected and had no access from the owners
or others during storage.  The boats that were stored in the water were
often larger and while docked were involved in more on-board repair work
as well as having on-board heaters running (while unoccupied) during
cold weather to prevent plumbing pipes from freezing.  It appears that
heaters were a common source of on-board fires.  Ignition of flammable
vapors ranked up there as well.

But agreed, the rack storage arrangement is a very complex situation
with little to no guidance from the Code realm.  

In one recent project this situation came up and NFPA 312 Standard for
Fire Protection of Vessels During Construction, Conversion, Repair and
Lay-up was applied along with NFPA 306 Standard for the Control of Gas
Hazards on Vessels.   Note: that this was not a pleasure craft facility.
But there was no way NFPA 13 could be applied to this facility.  NFPA
312 has very strict procedural guidelines and also ties into some CFR
Regs.   Those tightly restrictive procedures allow for a more simplistic
approach to fire protection.  


Craig L. Prahl, CET
Fire Protection Group
Mechanical Department
CH2MHILL
Lockwood Greene
1500 International Drive
PO Box 491, Spartanburg, SC  29304-0491
Direct - 864.599.4102
Fax - 864.599.8439
[EMAIL PROTECTED]
http://www.lg.com


-Original Message-
From: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
[mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] On Behalf Of Greg
McGahan
Sent: Friday, August 10, 2007 11:02 AM
To: sprinklerforum@firesprinkler.org
Subject: RE: boat storage

True that.

Some of the steel people are beginning to figure the weight of the water
in the rack design.

This issue MUST be addressed and put to rest by the IBC, NFPA, FM or
someone soon, or I think disaster is in the wings. 

I have no replies with successful saves IN a boat storage facility from
this forum.

Greg

Living Water Fire Protection, LLC
1160 McKenzie Road
Cantonment, FL 32533
850-937-1850
Fax: 850-937-1852


-Original Message-
From: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
[mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] On Behalf Of Roland
Huggins
Sent: Friday, August 10, 2007 9:56 AM
To: sprinklerforum@firesprinkler.org
Subject: Re: boat storage

The issue is not boats in a berth sitting in the water.  That one is  
simple since it is just a building covering a low level of storage.   
He is asking about boats stored on racks several levels high.  It's a
nasty item.  No contractor in their right mind should attempt to DESIGN
it.  Even with the engineers copying designs from contractors in the
Florida panhandle, LEAVE IT TO THE ENGINEER.  Now I can say no engineer
in their right mind would touch it unless the client was willing to make
some very limiting modifications to the layout of the racks.

Many of the facilities have adjustable racks to accommodate boats of
different heights.  I've heard of people putting side wall heads in the
columns to cover the area beneath the boats.  You think maybe they were
ignoring that you need the heads to activate in order for the water
throw to count as covering the area?  Group A plastics on racks with
LOTS

Re: boat storage

[Roland Huggins]

The issue is not boats in a berth sitting in the water.  That one is  
simple since it is just a building covering a low level of storage.   
He is asking about boats stored on racks several levels high.  It's a  
nasty item.  No contractor in their right mind should attempt to  
DESIGN it.  Even with the engineers copying designs from contractors  
in the Florida panhandle, LEAVE IT TO THE ENGINEER.  Now I can say no  
engineer in their right mind would touch it unless the client was  
willing to make some very limiting modifications to the layout of the  
racks.


Many of the facilities have adjustable racks to accommodate boats of  
different heights.  I've heard of people putting side wall heads in  
the columns to cover the area beneath the boats.  You think maybe  
they were ignoring that you need the heads to activate in order for  
the water throw to count as covering the area?  Group A plastics on  
racks with LOTS of surface area and LOTS of air flow is not a recipe  
for a slow burning, modest fire.


Speaking of racks, these also often do double duty by supporting the  
roof as well as the boats.  You think they include the weight of a  
water filled boat as part of the load for designing the rack?


Roland

On Aug 9, 2007, at 2:24 PM, [EMAIL PROTECTED]  
[EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote:



Are you having to prove the worth of sprinklers in this type of
installation?


Any idea of the value of loss in storage docks WITHOUT sprinklers?


Craig L. Prahl, CET
Fire Protection Group
Mechanical Department
CH2MHILL
Lockwood Greene
1500 International Drive
PO Box 491, Spartanburg, SC  29304-0491
Direct - 864.599.4102
Fax - 864.599.8439
[EMAIL PROTECTED]
http://www.lg.com


-Original Message-
From: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
[mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] On Behalf Of Greg
McGahan
Sent: Thursday, August 09, 2007 4:41 PM
To: sprinklerforum@firesprinkler.org
Subject: boat storage

I know this subject has been thoroughly abused so let's try a  
different

angle.

Does anyone know of any successful saves due to a sprinkler system  
in a

boat storage facility?

This issue is not going to go away and there is only going to be  
more of

them built.

Greg

Living Water Fire Protection, LLC
1160 McKenzie Road
Cantonment, FL 32533
850-937-1850
Fax: 850-937-1852

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RE: boat storage

[Greg McGahan]

True that.

Some of the steel people are beginning to figure the weight of the water in
the rack design.

This issue MUST be addressed and put to rest by the IBC, NFPA, FM or someone
soon, or I think disaster is in the wings. 

I have no replies with successful saves IN a boat storage facility from this
forum.

Greg

Living Water Fire Protection, LLC
1160 McKenzie Road
Cantonment, FL 32533
850-937-1850
Fax: 850-937-1852


-Original Message-
From: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
[mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] On Behalf Of Roland
Huggins
Sent: Friday, August 10, 2007 9:56 AM
To: sprinklerforum@firesprinkler.org
Subject: Re: boat storage

The issue is not boats in a berth sitting in the water.  That one is  
simple since it is just a building covering a low level of storage.   
He is asking about boats stored on racks several levels high.  It's a  
nasty item.  No contractor in their right mind should attempt to  
DESIGN it.  Even with the engineers copying designs from contractors  
in the Florida panhandle, LEAVE IT TO THE ENGINEER.  Now I can say no  
engineer in their right mind would touch it unless the client was  
willing to make some very limiting modifications to the layout of the  
racks.

Many of the facilities have adjustable racks to accommodate boats of  
different heights.  I've heard of people putting side wall heads in  
the columns to cover the area beneath the boats.  You think maybe  
they were ignoring that you need the heads to activate in order for  
the water throw to count as covering the area?  Group A plastics on  
racks with LOTS of surface area and LOTS of air flow is not a recipe  
for a slow burning, modest fire.

Speaking of racks, these also often do double duty by supporting the  
roof as well as the boats.  You think they include the weight of a  
water filled boat as part of the load for designing the rack?

Roland

On Aug 9, 2007, at 2:24 PM, [EMAIL PROTECTED]  
[EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote:

 Are you having to prove the worth of sprinklers in this type of
 installation?


 Any idea of the value of loss in storage docks WITHOUT sprinklers?


 Craig L. Prahl, CET
 Fire Protection Group
 Mechanical Department
 CH2MHILL
 Lockwood Greene
 1500 International Drive
 PO Box 491, Spartanburg, SC  29304-0491
 Direct - 864.599.4102
 Fax - 864.599.8439
 [EMAIL PROTECTED]
 http://www.lg.com


 -Original Message-
 From: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
 [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] On Behalf Of Greg
 McGahan
 Sent: Thursday, August 09, 2007 4:41 PM
 To: sprinklerforum@firesprinkler.org
 Subject: boat storage

 I know this subject has been thoroughly abused so let's try a  
 different
 angle.

 Does anyone know of any successful saves due to a sprinkler system  
 in a
 boat storage facility?

 This issue is not going to go away and there is only going to be  
 more of
 them built.

 Greg

 Living Water Fire Protection, LLC
 1160 McKenzie Road
 Cantonment, FL 32533
 850-937-1850
 Fax: 850-937-1852

 ___
 Sprinklerforum mailing list
 Sprinklerforum@firesprinkler.org
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RE: boat storage

[Greg McGahan]

Because at this point in time the philosophy is to build a cheap structure
and rake in money. Add Hi X foam would add a tremendous amount of money to
the structure with the huge open doors that are open almost all of the time
that would have to automatically close, etc. 

Would there also be an environmental concern being, oddly enough for these
facilities, right on the water?

The only way this will get resolved is to make it code to do whatever,
otherwise they will keep building the cheap buildings and we will keep
discussing it. The truth is that someone has to protect them and somebody is
going to design them. Do we leave these to the low ballers and
unscrupulous companies doing the absolute minimum? Or do we try to do
something that would arguably be at least better?

How bout this argument from Matt? NFPA 303 states protect in accordance
with 13 for plastics with solid shelves. If we follow that and layout based
on Chapter 12, do we not fall under the umbrella of NFPA?


Living Water Fire Protection, LLC
1160 McKenzie Road
Cantonment, FL 32533
850-937-1850
Fax: 850-937-1852


-Original Message-
From: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
[mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] On Behalf Of Ford, Charles
Sent: Friday, August 10, 2007 12:52 PM
To: sprinklerforum@firesprinkler.org
Subject: RE: boat storage

Thom, I'm with you on this Hi_X! . I suggested it last time we had this
discussion and got no nibbles
on my bait. I'd like to see some tests tho. 


Burton Ford
SET, CFPS
Member AFAA
[EMAIL PROTECTED]
267-487-1000
Fax 267-487-1010

This e-mail transmission contains information that is intended to be
confidential and privileged.  If
you receive this e-mail and you are not a named addressee you are hereby
notified that you are not
authorized to read, print, retain, copy or disseminate this communication
without the consent of the
sender and that doing so is prohibited and may be unlawful.  Please reply to
the message immediately
by informing the sender that the message was misdirected.  After replying,
please delete and otherwise
erase it and any attachments from your computer system.  Your assistance in
correcting this error is
appreciated.  Thank you.  Cintas Corporation

 -Original Message-
From:   [EMAIL PROTECTED]
[mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]  On
Behalf Of Thom McMahon
Sent:   Friday, August 10, 2007 1:46 PM
To: sprinklerforum@firesprinkler.org
Subject:Re: boat storage

I have always thought that this is a storage configuration that beg's for a 
High Expansion Foam Solution.
Lighter than water, tends to fill all the readily accessible spaces 
including cockpits and under boats.
Works for fuel fires and would seem to work for most Resin based fiber 
Glass fires as well.
Fairly easy clean up, and containment might even be possible with those 
hanging strip clear curtains the forklift can drive thru.
Anybody on the HiX committee have any words of caution? (I'll probably never

see another one of these, here, but they're interesting none the less.)

Thom McMahon
Firetech, Inc.
2560 Copper Ridge Dr
Steamboat Springs, CO 80488-2136
Tel: 970-879-7952
Fax: 970-879-7926
- Original Message - 
From: Greg McGahan [EMAIL PROTECTED]
To: sprinklerforum@firesprinkler.org
Sent: Friday, August 10, 2007 9:01 AM
Subject: RE: boat storage


 True that.

 Some of the steel people are beginning to figure the weight of the water 
 in
 the rack design.

 This issue MUST be addressed and put to rest by the IBC, NFPA, FM or 
 someone
 soon, or I think disaster is in the wings.

 I have no replies with successful saves IN a boat storage facility from 
 this
 forum.

 Greg

 Living Water Fire Protection, LLC
 1160 McKenzie Road
 Cantonment, FL 32533
 850-937-1850
 Fax: 850-937-1852


 -Original Message-
 From: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
 [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] On Behalf Of Roland
 Huggins
 Sent: Friday, August 10, 2007 9:56 AM
 To: sprinklerforum@firesprinkler.org
 Subject: Re: boat storage

 The issue is not boats in a berth sitting in the water.  That one is
 simple since it is just a building covering a low level of storage.
 He is asking about boats stored on racks several levels high.  It's a
 nasty item.  No contractor in their right mind should attempt to
 DESIGN it.  Even with the engineers copying designs from contractors
 in the Florida panhandle, LEAVE IT TO THE ENGINEER.  Now I can say no
 engineer in their right mind would touch it unless the client was
 willing to make some very limiting modifications to the layout of the
 racks.

 Many of the facilities have adjustable racks to accommodate boats of
 different heights.  I've heard of people putting side wall heads in
 the columns to cover the area beneath the boats.  You think maybe
 they were ignoring that you need the heads to activate in order for
 the water throw to count as covering the area?  Group A plastics on
 racks with LOTS of surface area and LOTS of air flow is not a recipe
 for a slow burning, modest fire.

 Speaking of racks, these also often do

RE: boat storage

[Greg McGahan]

That brings up an interesting question;

At what density does HIX start looking attractive from a pricing and
practicality standpoint?


Living Water Fire Protection, LLC
1160 McKenzie Road
Cantonment, FL 32533
850-937-1850
Fax: 850-937-1852


-Original Message-
From: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
[mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] On Behalf Of Greg McGahan
Sent: Friday, August 10, 2007 1:49 PM
To: sprinklerforum@firesprinkler.org
Subject: RE: boat storage

Because at this point in time the philosophy is to build a cheap structure
and rake in money. Add Hi X foam would add a tremendous amount of money to
the structure with the huge open doors that are open almost all of the time
that would have to automatically close, etc. 

Would there also be an environmental concern being, oddly enough for these
facilities, right on the water?

The only way this will get resolved is to make it code to do whatever,
otherwise they will keep building the cheap buildings and we will keep
discussing it. The truth is that someone has to protect them and somebody is
going to design them. Do we leave these to the low ballers and
unscrupulous companies doing the absolute minimum? Or do we try to do
something that would arguably be at least better?

How bout this argument from Matt? NFPA 303 states protect in accordance
with 13 for plastics with solid shelves. If we follow that and layout based
on Chapter 12, do we not fall under the umbrella of NFPA?


Living Water Fire Protection, LLC
1160 McKenzie Road
Cantonment, FL 32533
850-937-1850
Fax: 850-937-1852


-Original Message-
From: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
[mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] On Behalf Of Ford, Charles
Sent: Friday, August 10, 2007 12:52 PM
To: sprinklerforum@firesprinkler.org
Subject: RE: boat storage

Thom, I'm with you on this Hi_X! . I suggested it last time we had this
discussion and got no nibbles
on my bait. I'd like to see some tests tho. 


Burton Ford
SET, CFPS
Member AFAA
[EMAIL PROTECTED]
267-487-1000
Fax 267-487-1010

This e-mail transmission contains information that is intended to be
confidential and privileged.  If
you receive this e-mail and you are not a named addressee you are hereby
notified that you are not
authorized to read, print, retain, copy or disseminate this communication
without the consent of the
sender and that doing so is prohibited and may be unlawful.  Please reply to
the message immediately
by informing the sender that the message was misdirected.  After replying,
please delete and otherwise
erase it and any attachments from your computer system.  Your assistance in
correcting this error is
appreciated.  Thank you.  Cintas Corporation

 -Original Message-
From:   [EMAIL PROTECTED]
[mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]  On
Behalf Of Thom McMahon
Sent:   Friday, August 10, 2007 1:46 PM
To: sprinklerforum@firesprinkler.org
Subject:Re: boat storage

I have always thought that this is a storage configuration that beg's for a 
High Expansion Foam Solution.
Lighter than water, tends to fill all the readily accessible spaces 
including cockpits and under boats.
Works for fuel fires and would seem to work for most Resin based fiber 
Glass fires as well.
Fairly easy clean up, and containment might even be possible with those 
hanging strip clear curtains the forklift can drive thru.
Anybody on the HiX committee have any words of caution? (I'll probably never

see another one of these, here, but they're interesting none the less.)

Thom McMahon
Firetech, Inc.
2560 Copper Ridge Dr
Steamboat Springs, CO 80488-2136
Tel: 970-879-7952
Fax: 970-879-7926
- Original Message - 
From: Greg McGahan [EMAIL PROTECTED]
To: sprinklerforum@firesprinkler.org
Sent: Friday, August 10, 2007 9:01 AM
Subject: RE: boat storage


 True that.

 Some of the steel people are beginning to figure the weight of the water 
 in
 the rack design.

 This issue MUST be addressed and put to rest by the IBC, NFPA, FM or 
 someone
 soon, or I think disaster is in the wings.

 I have no replies with successful saves IN a boat storage facility from 
 this
 forum.

 Greg

 Living Water Fire Protection, LLC
 1160 McKenzie Road
 Cantonment, FL 32533
 850-937-1850
 Fax: 850-937-1852


 -Original Message-
 From: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
 [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] On Behalf Of Roland
 Huggins
 Sent: Friday, August 10, 2007 9:56 AM
 To: sprinklerforum@firesprinkler.org
 Subject: Re: boat storage

 The issue is not boats in a berth sitting in the water.  That one is
 simple since it is just a building covering a low level of storage.
 He is asking about boats stored on racks several levels high.  It's a
 nasty item.  No contractor in their right mind should attempt to
 DESIGN it.  Even with the engineers copying designs from contractors
 in the Florida panhandle, LEAVE IT TO THE ENGINEER.  Now I can say no
 engineer in their right mind would touch it unless the client was
 willing to make some very limiting modifications to the layout of the
 racks.

 Many of the facilities have adjustable

RE: boat storage

[Ford, Charles]

Thom, I'm with you on this Hi_X! . I suggested it last time we had this 
discussion and got no nibbles
on my bait. I'd like to see some tests tho. 


Burton Ford
SET, CFPS
Member AFAA
[EMAIL PROTECTED]
267-487-1000
Fax 267-487-1010

This e-mail transmission contains information that is intended to be 
confidential and privileged.  If
you receive this e-mail and you are not a named addressee you are hereby 
notified that you are not
authorized to read, print, retain, copy or disseminate this communication 
without the consent of the
sender and that doing so is prohibited and may be unlawful.  Please reply to 
the message immediately
by informing the sender that the message was misdirected.  After replying, 
please delete and otherwise
erase it and any attachments from your computer system.  Your assistance in 
correcting this error is
appreciated.  Thank you.  Cintas Corporation

 -Original Message-
From:   [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]  On
Behalf Of Thom McMahon
Sent:   Friday, August 10, 2007 1:46 PM
To: sprinklerforum@firesprinkler.org
Subject:Re: boat storage

I have always thought that this is a storage configuration that beg's for a 
High Expansion Foam Solution.
Lighter than water, tends to fill all the readily accessible spaces 
including cockpits and under boats.
Works for fuel fires and would seem to work for most Resin based fiber 
Glass fires as well.
Fairly easy clean up, and containment might even be possible with those 
hanging strip clear curtains the forklift can drive thru.
Anybody on the HiX committee have any words of caution? (I'll probably never 
see another one of these, here, but they're interesting none the less.)

Thom McMahon
Firetech, Inc.
2560 Copper Ridge Dr
Steamboat Springs, CO 80488-2136
Tel: 970-879-7952
Fax: 970-879-7926
- Original Message - 
From: Greg McGahan [EMAIL PROTECTED]
To: sprinklerforum@firesprinkler.org
Sent: Friday, August 10, 2007 9:01 AM
Subject: RE: boat storage


 True that.

 Some of the steel people are beginning to figure the weight of the water 
 in
 the rack design.

 This issue MUST be addressed and put to rest by the IBC, NFPA, FM or 
 someone
 soon, or I think disaster is in the wings.

 I have no replies with successful saves IN a boat storage facility from 
 this
 forum.

 Greg

 Living Water Fire Protection, LLC
 1160 McKenzie Road
 Cantonment, FL 32533
 850-937-1850
 Fax: 850-937-1852


 -Original Message-
 From: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
 [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] On Behalf Of Roland
 Huggins
 Sent: Friday, August 10, 2007 9:56 AM
 To: sprinklerforum@firesprinkler.org
 Subject: Re: boat storage

 The issue is not boats in a berth sitting in the water.  That one is
 simple since it is just a building covering a low level of storage.
 He is asking about boats stored on racks several levels high.  It's a
 nasty item.  No contractor in their right mind should attempt to
 DESIGN it.  Even with the engineers copying designs from contractors
 in the Florida panhandle, LEAVE IT TO THE ENGINEER.  Now I can say no
 engineer in their right mind would touch it unless the client was
 willing to make some very limiting modifications to the layout of the
 racks.

 Many of the facilities have adjustable racks to accommodate boats of
 different heights.  I've heard of people putting side wall heads in
 the columns to cover the area beneath the boats.  You think maybe
 they were ignoring that you need the heads to activate in order for
 the water throw to count as covering the area?  Group A plastics on
 racks with LOTS of surface area and LOTS of air flow is not a recipe
 for a slow burning, modest fire.

 Speaking of racks, these also often do double duty by supporting the
 roof as well as the boats.  You think they include the weight of a
 water filled boat as part of the load for designing the rack?

 Roland

 On Aug 9, 2007, at 2:24 PM, [EMAIL PROTECTED]
 [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote:

 Are you having to prove the worth of sprinklers in this type of
 installation?


 Any idea of the value of loss in storage docks WITHOUT sprinklers?


 Craig L. Prahl, CET
 Fire Protection Group
 Mechanical Department
 CH2MHILL
 Lockwood Greene
 1500 International Drive
 PO Box 491, Spartanburg, SC  29304-0491
 Direct - 864.599.4102
 Fax - 864.599.8439
 [EMAIL PROTECTED]
 http://www.lg.com


 -Original Message-
 From: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
 [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] On Behalf Of Greg
 McGahan
 Sent: Thursday, August 09, 2007 4:41 PM
 To: sprinklerforum@firesprinkler.org
 Subject: boat storage

 I know this subject has been thoroughly abused so let's try a
 different
 angle.

 Does anyone know of any successful saves due to a sprinkler system
 in a
 boat storage facility?

 This issue is not going to go away and there is only going to be
 more of
 them built.

 Greg

 Living Water Fire Protection, LLC
 1160 McKenzie Road
 Cantonment, FL 32533
 850-937-1850
 Fax: 850-937-1852

RE: boat storage

[Cliff Whitfield]

Craig,

The boats that are stored in these facilities around this part of the
country do not have the fuel tanks purged or the batteries disconnected.
They are usually 18' to 25' pleasure/ski/fishing boats that can be removed
from the rack, dropped in the water and ready to go in a few minutes.

Like someone has already mentioned, this is the kind of job to walk away
from until there is definite guidance given by an NFPA standard.

Cliff Whitfield
Fire Design, Inc.

-Original Message-
From: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
[mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] On Behalf Of
[EMAIL PROTECTED]
Sent: Friday, August 10, 2007 10:29 AM
To: sprinklerforum@firesprinkler.org
Subject: RE: boat storage

In doing some reading on the topic is appears from a risk standpoint
that the boats stored in the rack configuration had a lower risk of
being involved in a fire than those which are moored in the water under
the dock roof.  Reason being that those stored on the racks were drained
of fuel and had batteries disconnected and had no access from the owners
or others during storage.  The boats that were stored in the water were
often larger and while docked were involved in more on-board repair work
as well as having on-board heaters running (while unoccupied) during
cold weather to prevent plumbing pipes from freezing.  It appears that
heaters were a common source of on-board fires.  Ignition of flammable
vapors ranked up there as well.

But agreed, the rack storage arrangement is a very complex situation
with little to no guidance from the Code realm.  

In one recent project this situation came up and NFPA 312 Standard for
Fire Protection of Vessels During Construction, Conversion, Repair and
Lay-up was applied along with NFPA 306 Standard for the Control of Gas
Hazards on Vessels.   Note: that this was not a pleasure craft facility.
But there was no way NFPA 13 could be applied to this facility.  NFPA
312 has very strict procedural guidelines and also ties into some CFR
Regs.   Those tightly restrictive procedures allow for a more simplistic
approach to fire protection.  





Craig L. Prahl, CET
Fire Protection Group
Mechanical Department
CH2MHILL
Lockwood Greene
1500 International Drive
PO Box 491, Spartanburg, SC  29304-0491
Direct - 864.599.4102
Fax - 864.599.8439
[EMAIL PROTECTED]
http://www.lg.com


-Original Message-
From: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
[mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] On Behalf Of Greg
McGahan
Sent: Friday, August 10, 2007 11:02 AM
To: sprinklerforum@firesprinkler.org
Subject: RE: boat storage

True that.

Some of the steel people are beginning to figure the weight of the water
in the rack design.

This issue MUST be addressed and put to rest by the IBC, NFPA, FM or
someone soon, or I think disaster is in the wings. 

I have no replies with successful saves IN a boat storage facility from
this forum.

Greg

Living Water Fire Protection, LLC
1160 McKenzie Road
Cantonment, FL 32533
850-937-1850
Fax: 850-937-1852


-Original Message-
From: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
[mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] On Behalf Of Roland
Huggins
Sent: Friday, August 10, 2007 9:56 AM
To: sprinklerforum@firesprinkler.org
Subject: Re: boat storage

The issue is not boats in a berth sitting in the water.  That one is  
simple since it is just a building covering a low level of storage.   
He is asking about boats stored on racks several levels high.  It's a
nasty item.  No contractor in their right mind should attempt to DESIGN
it.  Even with the engineers copying designs from contractors in the
Florida panhandle, LEAVE IT TO THE ENGINEER.  Now I can say no engineer
in their right mind would touch it unless the client was willing to make
some very limiting modifications to the layout of the racks.

Many of the facilities have adjustable racks to accommodate boats of
different heights.  I've heard of people putting side wall heads in the
columns to cover the area beneath the boats.  You think maybe they were
ignoring that you need the heads to activate in order for the water
throw to count as covering the area?  Group A plastics on racks with
LOTS of surface area and LOTS of air flow is not a recipe for a slow
burning, modest fire.

Speaking of racks, these also often do double duty by supporting the
roof as well as the boats.  You think they include the weight of a water
filled boat as part of the load for designing the rack?

Roland

On Aug 9, 2007, at 2:24 PM, [EMAIL PROTECTED]
[EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote:

 Are you having to prove the worth of sprinklers in this type of 
 installation?


 Any idea of the value of loss in storage docks WITHOUT sprinklers?


 Craig L. Prahl, CET
 Fire Protection Group
 Mechanical Department
 CH2MHILL
 Lockwood Greene
 1500 International Drive
 PO Box 491, Spartanburg, SC  29304-0491 Direct - 864.599.4102 Fax - 
 864.599.8439 [EMAIL PROTECTED] http://www.lg.com


 -Original Message-
 From: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
 [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] On Behalf Of Greg 
 McGahan
 Sent: Thursday, August 09, 2007 4:41 PM
 To: sprinklerforum

Re: boat storage

[Roland Huggins]

Let's have a philosophy discussion.

The aspect of risk and whether a fire will start is an aspect  
influencing performance based BUILDING design and codes issues on  
WHEN protection is needed but it as NOTHING to do with sprinkler  
design.  Once the decision has been made that sprinklers are  
required, everything is driven by the philosophy that a fire HAS  
started, what's required to control it..


Roland

On Aug 10, 2007, at 8:28 AM, [EMAIL PROTECTED]  
[EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote:



In doing some reading on the topic is appears from a risk standpoint
that the boats stored in the rack configuration had a lower risk of
being involved in a fire than those which are moored in the water  
under
the dock roof.  Reason being that those stored on the racks were  
drained
of fuel and had batteries disconnected and had no access from the  
owners
or others during storage.  The boats that were stored in the water  
were
often larger and while docked were involved in more on-board repair  
work

as well as having on-board heaters running (while unoccupied) during
cold weather to prevent plumbing pipes from freezing.  It appears that
heaters were a common source of on-board fires.  Ignition of flammable
vapors ranked up there as well.

But agreed, the rack storage arrangement is a very complex situation
with little to no guidance from the Code realm.

In one recent project this situation came up and NFPA 312 Standard  
for

Fire Protection of Vessels During Construction, Conversion, Repair and
Lay-up was applied along with NFPA 306 Standard for the Control  
of Gas
Hazards on Vessels.   Note: that this was not a pleasure craft  
facility.

But there was no way NFPA 13 could be applied to this facility.  NFPA
312 has very strict procedural guidelines and also ties into some CFR
Regs.   Those tightly restrictive procedures allow for a more  
simplistic

approach to fire protection.





Craig L. Prahl, CET
Fire Protection Group
Mechanical Department
CH2MHILL
Lockwood Greene
1500 International Drive
PO Box 491, Spartanburg, SC  29304-0491
Direct - 864.599.4102
Fax - 864.599.8439
[EMAIL PROTECTED]
http://www.lg.com


-Original Message-
From: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
[mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] On Behalf Of Greg
McGahan
Sent: Friday, August 10, 2007 11:02 AM
To: sprinklerforum@firesprinkler.org
Subject: RE: boat storage

True that.

Some of the steel people are beginning to figure the weight of the  
water

in the rack design.

This issue MUST be addressed and put to rest by the IBC, NFPA, FM or
someone soon, or I think disaster is in the wings.

I have no replies with successful saves IN a boat storage facility  
from

this forum.

Greg

Living Water Fire Protection, LLC
1160 McKenzie Road
Cantonment, FL 32533
850-937-1850
Fax: 850-937-1852


-Original Message-
From: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
[mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] On Behalf Of Roland
Huggins
Sent: Friday, August 10, 2007 9:56 AM
To: sprinklerforum@firesprinkler.org
Subject: Re: boat storage

The issue is not boats in a berth sitting in the water.  That one is
simple since it is just a building covering a low level of storage.
He is asking about boats stored on racks several levels high.  It's a
nasty item.  No contractor in their right mind should attempt to  
DESIGN

it.  Even with the engineers copying designs from contractors in the
Florida panhandle, LEAVE IT TO THE ENGINEER.  Now I can say no  
engineer
in their right mind would touch it unless the client was willing to  
make

some very limiting modifications to the layout of the racks.

Many of the facilities have adjustable racks to accommodate boats of
different heights.  I've heard of people putting side wall heads in  
the
columns to cover the area beneath the boats.  You think maybe they  
were

ignoring that you need the heads to activate in order for the water
throw to count as covering the area?  Group A plastics on racks with
LOTS of surface area and LOTS of air flow is not a recipe for a slow
burning, modest fire.

Speaking of racks, these also often do double duty by supporting the
roof as well as the boats.  You think they include the weight of a  
water

filled boat as part of the load for designing the rack?

Roland

On Aug 9, 2007, at 2:24 PM, [EMAIL PROTECTED]
[EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote:


Are you having to prove the worth of sprinklers in this type of
installation?


Any idea of the value of loss in storage docks WITHOUT sprinklers?


Craig L. Prahl, CET
Fire Protection Group
Mechanical Department
CH2MHILL
Lockwood Greene
1500 International Drive
PO Box 491, Spartanburg, SC  29304-0491 Direct - 864.599.4102 Fax -
864.599.8439 [EMAIL PROTECTED] http://www.lg.com


-Original Message-
From: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
[mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] On Behalf Of Greg
McGahan
Sent: Thursday, August 09, 2007 4:41 PM
To: sprinklerforum@firesprinkler.org
Subject: boat storage

I know this subject has been thoroughly abused so let's try a
different angle.

Does anyone know of any successful saves due

Re: boat storage

[Todd Williams - work]

This is an issue that is only going to properly addressed with some 
sophisticated fire modeling and/or full scale fire tests. Or enough 
losses to derive protection criteria. Nothing in the present 
standards seems to address this adequately. Even Engineers need 
guidelines, so 'leaving it to the Engineer' may do little more than 
pass the buck one step up. That may help insulate the contractor, but 
doesn't solve the initial problem.


The problem is to derive proper protection criteria for this 
occupancy. Maybe this is another situation where sprinklers cannot 
protect the occupancy. Hi X foam is an option; I have also inquired 
about some form of water mist. Somehow, this would have to be worked 
out. Once the criteria is established, then the industry would have 
to set criteria to deal with the hazard (rack strength requirements, 
arrangements, etc)


Until then, it's not much more than a good guess.



At 10:56 AM 8/10/2007, you wrote:

The issue is not boats in a berth sitting in the water.  That one is
simple since it is just a building covering a low level of storage.
He is asking about boats stored on racks several levels high.  It's a
nasty item.  No contractor in their right mind should attempt to
DESIGN it.  Even with the engineers copying designs from contractors
in the Florida panhandle, LEAVE IT TO THE ENGINEER.  Now I can say no
engineer in their right mind would touch it unless the client was
willing to make some very limiting modifications to the layout of the
racks.

Many of the facilities have adjustable racks to accommodate boats of
different heights.  I've heard of people putting side wall heads in
the columns to cover the area beneath the boats.  You think maybe
they were ignoring that you need the heads to activate in order for
the water throw to count as covering the area?  Group A plastics on
racks with LOTS of surface area and LOTS of air flow is not a recipe
for a slow burning, modest fire.

Speaking of racks, these also often do double duty by supporting the
roof as well as the boats.  You think they include the weight of a
water filled boat as part of the load for designing the rack?

Roland

On Aug 9, 2007, at 2:24 PM, [EMAIL PROTECTED]
[EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote:


Are you having to prove the worth of sprinklers in this type of
installation?


Any idea of the value of loss in storage docks WITHOUT sprinklers?


Craig L. Prahl, CET
Fire Protection Group
Mechanical Department
CH2MHILL
Lockwood Greene
1500 International Drive
PO Box 491, Spartanburg, SC  29304-0491
Direct - 864.599.4102
Fax - 864.599.8439
[EMAIL PROTECTED]
http://www.lg.com


-Original Message-
From: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
[mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] On Behalf Of Greg
McGahan
Sent: Thursday, August 09, 2007 4:41 PM
To: sprinklerforum@firesprinkler.org
Subject: boat storage

I know this subject has been thoroughly abused so let's try a
different
angle.

Does anyone know of any successful saves due to a sprinkler system
in a
boat storage facility?

This issue is not going to go away and there is only going to be
more of
them built.

Greg

Living Water Fire Protection, LLC
1160 McKenzie Road
Cantonment, FL 32533
850-937-1850
Fax: 850-937-1852

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Todd G. Williams, PE
Fire Protection Design/Consulting
Stonington, Connecticut
860-535-2080
www.fpdc.com 


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Re: boat storage

[Thom McMahon]

Cheep structure with expensive contents, Large doors often open, needing 
auto closing. You could be describing an aircraft hanger. These things are 
such big money makers, I think that the owners can afford Proper 
Protection whatever that is determined to be. I don't know how much testing 
there could be, 20 or 50 boats are very expensive, not to mention who's 
going to pay for the testing ($500,000.00 to start) but maybe some computer 
modeling.


Does anyone know if FM insures any of these occupancies? And what their 
design guidelines are?


Thom McMahon
Firetech, Inc.
2560 Copper Ridge Dr
Steamboat Springs, CO 80488-2136
Tel: 970-879-7952
Fax: 970-879-7926
- Original Message - 
From: Greg McGahan [EMAIL PROTECTED]

To: sprinklerforum@firesprinkler.org
Sent: Friday, August 10, 2007 12:48 PM
Subject: RE: boat storage



Because at this point in time the philosophy is to build a cheap structure
and rake in money. Add Hi X foam would add a tremendous amount of money to
the structure with the huge open doors that are open almost all of the 
time

that would have to automatically close, etc.

Would there also be an environmental concern being, oddly enough for these
facilities, right on the water?

The only way this will get resolved is to make it code to do whatever,
otherwise they will keep building the cheap buildings and we will keep
discussing it. The truth is that someone has to protect them and somebody 
is

going to design them. Do we leave these to the low ballers and
unscrupulous companies doing the absolute minimum? Or do we try to do
something that would arguably be at least better?

How bout this argument from Matt? NFPA 303 states protect in accordance
with 13 for plastics with solid shelves. If we follow that and layout 
based

on Chapter 12, do we not fall under the umbrella of NFPA?


Living Water Fire Protection, LLC
1160 McKenzie Road
Cantonment, FL 32533
850-937-1850
Fax: 850-937-1852


-Original Message-
From: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
[mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] On Behalf Of Ford, 
Charles

Sent: Friday, August 10, 2007 12:52 PM
To: sprinklerforum@firesprinkler.org
Subject: RE: boat storage

Thom, I'm with you on this Hi_X! . I suggested it last time we had this
discussion and got no nibbles
on my bait. I'd like to see some tests tho.


Burton Ford
SET, CFPS
Member AFAA
[EMAIL PROTECTED]
267-487-1000
Fax 267-487-1010

This e-mail transmission contains information that is intended to be
confidential and privileged.  If
you receive this e-mail and you are not a named addressee you are hereby
notified that you are not
authorized to read, print, retain, copy or disseminate this communication
without the consent of the
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correcting this error is
appreciated.  Thank you.  Cintas Corporation

-Original Message-
From: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
[mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]  On
Behalf Of Thom McMahon
Sent: Friday, August 10, 2007 1:46 PM
To: sprinklerforum@firesprinkler.org
Subject: Re: boat storage

I have always thought that this is a storage configuration that beg's for 
a

High Expansion Foam Solution.
Lighter than water, tends to fill all the readily accessible spaces
including cockpits and under boats.
Works for fuel fires and would seem to work for most Resin based fiber
Glass fires as well.
Fairly easy clean up, and containment might even be possible with those
hanging strip clear curtains the forklift can drive thru.
Anybody on the HiX committee have any words of caution? (I'll probably 
never


see another one of these, here, but they're interesting none the less.)

Thom McMahon
Firetech, Inc.
2560 Copper Ridge Dr
Steamboat Springs, CO 80488-2136
Tel: 970-879-7952
Fax: 970-879-7926
- Original Message - 
From: Greg McGahan [EMAIL PROTECTED]

To: sprinklerforum@firesprinkler.org
Sent: Friday, August 10, 2007 9:01 AM
Subject: RE: boat storage



True that.

Some of the steel people are beginning to figure the weight of the water
in
the rack design.

This issue MUST be addressed and put to rest by the IBC, NFPA, FM or
someone
soon, or I think disaster is in the wings.

I have no replies with successful saves IN a boat storage facility from
this
forum.

Greg

Living Water Fire Protection, LLC
1160 McKenzie Road
Cantonment, FL 32533
850-937-1850
Fax: 850-937-1852


-Original Message-
From: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
[mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] On Behalf Of Roland
Huggins
Sent: Friday, August 10, 2007 9:56 AM
To: sprinklerforum@firesprinkler.org
Subject: Re: boat storage

The issue is not boats in a berth sitting in the water.  That one is
simple since it is just a building covering a low level of storage.
He is asking about boats stored on racks several levels high.  It's a
nasty item.  No contractor

RE: boat storage

[Greg McGahan]

I apologize for not being clearer. I have only seen sprinklers in boat
storage facilities with racks. I know of 2 that have completely burnt to the
ground with a final décor of twisted, melted steel framing.

Greg
Living Water Fire Protection, LLC
1160 McKenzie Road
Cantonment, FL 32533
850-937-1850
Fax: 850-937-1852


-Original Message-
From: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
[mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] On Behalf Of Todd Williams
- work
Sent: Thursday, August 09, 2007 4:30 PM
To: sprinklerforum@firesprinkler.org
Subject: RE: boat storage

Are we talking docks, ground storage or racks? There are plenty of 
ground and dock storage fires, but my assumption was that Greg was 
discussing racks.


At 05:24 PM 8/9/2007, you wrote:
Are you having to prove the worth of sprinklers in this type of
installation?


Any idea of the value of loss in storage docks WITHOUT sprinklers?


Craig L. Prahl, CET
Fire Protection Group
Mechanical Department
CH2MHILL
Lockwood Greene
1500 International Drive
PO Box 491, Spartanburg, SC  29304-0491
Direct - 864.599.4102
Fax - 864.599.8439
[EMAIL PROTECTED]
http://www.lg.com


-Original Message-
From: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
[mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] On Behalf Of Greg
McGahan
Sent: Thursday, August 09, 2007 4:41 PM
To: sprinklerforum@firesprinkler.org
Subject: boat storage

I know this subject has been thoroughly abused so let's try a different
angle.

Does anyone know of any successful saves due to a sprinkler system in a
boat storage facility?

This issue is not going to go away and there is only going to be more of
them built.

Greg

Living Water Fire Protection, LLC
1160 McKenzie Road
Cantonment, FL 32533
850-937-1850
Fax: 850-937-1852

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Todd G. Williams, PE
Fire Protection Design/Consulting
Stonington, Connecticut
860-535-2080
www.fpdc.com 

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Re: boat storage

[Roland Huggins]

I stick with my original statement.  IT is up to the ENGINEER that is  
working with the team designing the building.  If that team doesn't  
want to do anything that limits the flexibility on storing racks then  
any engineer that remains on the team is insane.


As already stated, it's a group A plastic in racks and with the  
amount of blocked racks it falls in the solid shelf category.  The  
problem for the poor dummy that accepts the liability of a  job with  
no limits on the racks (either engineer or contractor) is how do you  
locate the in-rack sprinklers (when they are modifying the individual  
rack heights)?.  Next question (even when racks are relative fixed),  
how do you locate the in-racks so they actually activate under those  
curved hulls?  One I heard about installed a ton of in-racks located  
with them directly below each boat and on both sides of each boat.   
Not much flexibility after that.


What has FM recommended when you have a grouping of obstructions that  
when combined are wide  enough to be a problem but not solid enough  
to capture much heat (also they use to do the same under a big  
diameter pipe)?  Maybe a flat, solid barrier.  Don't see many boat  
storage racks incorporating them.


AT least the boat storage folks seem to be a bunch of individuals  
fumbling in the dark verses a large industry knowingly embracing bad  
fire protection (and who effectively blocked changes to 13 on the  
floor of a annual technical session).  So it could be worse.


Roland

On Aug 10, 2007, at 1:16 PM, Todd Williams - work wrote:

This is an issue that is only going to properly addressed with some  
sophisticated fire modeling and/or full scale fire tests. Or enough  
losses to derive protection criteria. Nothing in the present  
standards seems to address this adequately. Even Engineers need  
guidelines, so 'leaving it to the Engineer' may do little more than  
pass the buck one step up. That may help insulate the contractor,  
but doesn't solve the initial problem.


The problem is to derive proper protection criteria for this  
occupancy. Maybe this is another situation where sprinklers cannot  
protect the occupancy. Hi X foam is an option; I have also inquired  
about some form of water mist. Somehow, this would have to be  
worked out. Once the criteria is established, then the industry  
would have to set criteria to deal with the hazard (rack strength  
requirements, arrangements, etc)


Until then, it's not much more than a good guess.



At 10:56 AM 8/10/2007, you wrote:

The issue is not boats in a berth sitting in the water.  That one is
simple since it is just a building covering a low level of storage.
He is asking about boats stored on racks several levels high.  It's a
nasty item.  No contractor in their right mind should attempt to
DESIGN it.  Even with the engineers copying designs from contractors
in the Florida panhandle, LEAVE IT TO THE ENGINEER.  Now I can say no
engineer in their right mind would touch it unless the client was
willing to make some very limiting modifications to the layout of the
racks.

Many of the facilities have adjustable racks to accommodate boats of
different heights.  I've heard of people putting side wall heads in
the columns to cover the area beneath the boats.  You think maybe
they were ignoring that you need the heads to activate in order for
the water throw to count as covering the area?  Group A plastics on
racks with LOTS of surface area and LOTS of air flow is not a recipe
for a slow burning, modest fire.

Speaking of racks, these also often do double duty by supporting the
roof as well as the boats.  You think they include the weight of a
water filled boat as part of the load for designing the rack?

Roland

On Aug 9, 2007, at 2:24 PM, [EMAIL PROTECTED]
[EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote:


Are you having to prove the worth of sprinklers in this type of
installation?


Any idea of the value of loss in storage docks WITHOUT sprinklers?


Craig L. Prahl, CET
Fire Protection Group
Mechanical Department
CH2MHILL
Lockwood Greene
1500 International Drive
PO Box 491, Spartanburg, SC  29304-0491
Direct - 864.599.4102
Fax - 864.599.8439
[EMAIL PROTECTED]
http://www.lg.com


-Original Message-
From: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
[mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] On Behalf Of Greg
McGahan
Sent: Thursday, August 09, 2007 4:41 PM
To: sprinklerforum@firesprinkler.org
Subject: boat storage

I know this subject has been thoroughly abused so let's try a
different
angle.

Does anyone know of any successful saves due to a sprinkler system
in a
boat storage facility?

This issue is not going to go away and there is only going to be
more of
them built.

Greg

Living Water Fire Protection, LLC
1160 McKenzie Road
Cantonment, FL 32533
850-937-1850
Fax: 850-937-1852

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Re: boat storage

[Todd Williams - work]

Greg,

I have a friend who has been in that business since early on and is 
now a consultant. I will check with him to see if he knows of anything.


Anybody heard of a sprinkler discharge for fire or otherwise? I'd be 
interested in knowing how the racks hold up.


Todd

At 04:41 PM 8/9/2007, you wrote:

I know this subject has been thoroughly abused so let's try a different
angle.

Does anyone know of any successful saves due to a sprinkler system in a boat
storage facility?

This issue is not going to go away and there is only going to be more of
them built.

Greg

Living Water Fire Protection, LLC
1160 McKenzie Road
Cantonment, FL 32533
850-937-1850
Fax: 850-937-1852

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Todd G. Williams, PE
Fire Protection Design/Consulting
Stonington, Connecticut
860-535-2080
www.fpdc.com 


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RE: boat storage

[Craig.Prahl]

Are you having to prove the worth of sprinklers in this type of
installation?


Any idea of the value of loss in storage docks WITHOUT sprinklers? 


Craig L. Prahl, CET
Fire Protection Group
Mechanical Department
CH2MHILL
Lockwood Greene
1500 International Drive
PO Box 491, Spartanburg, SC  29304-0491
Direct - 864.599.4102
Fax - 864.599.8439
[EMAIL PROTECTED]
http://www.lg.com


-Original Message-
From: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
[mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] On Behalf Of Greg
McGahan
Sent: Thursday, August 09, 2007 4:41 PM
To: sprinklerforum@firesprinkler.org
Subject: boat storage

I know this subject has been thoroughly abused so let's try a different
angle.

Does anyone know of any successful saves due to a sprinkler system in a
boat storage facility?

This issue is not going to go away and there is only going to be more of
them built.

Greg

Living Water Fire Protection, LLC
1160 McKenzie Road
Cantonment, FL 32533
850-937-1850
Fax: 850-937-1852

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RE: boat storage

[Craig.Prahl]

 http://www.48north.com/apr2002/letters.htm




Craig L. Prahl, CET
Fire Protection Group
Mechanical Department
CH2MHILL
Lockwood Greene
1500 International Drive
PO Box 491, Spartanburg, SC  29304-0491
Direct - 864.599.4102
Fax - 864.599.8439
[EMAIL PROTECTED]
http://www.lg.com


-Original Message-
From: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
[mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] On Behalf Of Greg
McGahan
Sent: Thursday, August 09, 2007 4:41 PM
To: sprinklerforum@firesprinkler.org
Subject: boat storage

I know this subject has been thoroughly abused so let's try a different
angle.

Does anyone know of any successful saves due to a sprinkler system in a
boat storage facility?

This issue is not going to go away and there is only going to be more of
them built.

Greg

Living Water Fire Protection, LLC
1160 McKenzie Road
Cantonment, FL 32533
850-937-1850
Fax: 850-937-1852

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RE: boat storage

[Todd Williams - work]

Are we talking docks, ground storage or racks? There are plenty of 
ground and dock storage fires, but my assumption was that Greg was 
discussing racks.



At 05:24 PM 8/9/2007, you wrote:

Are you having to prove the worth of sprinklers in this type of
installation?


Any idea of the value of loss in storage docks WITHOUT sprinklers?


Craig L. Prahl, CET
Fire Protection Group
Mechanical Department
CH2MHILL
Lockwood Greene
1500 International Drive
PO Box 491, Spartanburg, SC  29304-0491
Direct - 864.599.4102
Fax - 864.599.8439
[EMAIL PROTECTED]
http://www.lg.com


-Original Message-
From: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
[mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] On Behalf Of Greg
McGahan
Sent: Thursday, August 09, 2007 4:41 PM
To: sprinklerforum@firesprinkler.org
Subject: boat storage

I know this subject has been thoroughly abused so let's try a different
angle.

Does anyone know of any successful saves due to a sprinkler system in a
boat storage facility?

This issue is not going to go away and there is only going to be more of
them built.

Greg

Living Water Fire Protection, LLC
1160 McKenzie Road
Cantonment, FL 32533
850-937-1850
Fax: 850-937-1852

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Todd G. Williams, PE
Fire Protection Design/Consulting
Stonington, Connecticut
860-535-2080
www.fpdc.com 


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