On 2/16/06, Rick Faaberg [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote:
I don't have that little down-pointing arrow (probably not using the same
browser as you are). After 12 clicks, I probably wouldn't even remember the
original site's title anyway.
I was being somewhat facetious, but every browser I have within
Rick Faaberg:
All popup windows break the back
button (popup as in a new window, Javascript or not).
So if you are 12 clicks into the new site in the original window,
you're
fine with clicking back 12 times to get back to the original site?
Assuming of course that no-one else is opening
On 2/16/06 1:22 AM Philippe Wittenbergh [EMAIL PROTECTED] sent this out:
Safari has this same functionality: onclick= 1 step back;
onmousedown= popup menu with your recent widow history. I'm not sure
how many steps it remembers, I never use Safari except for testing.
Even then, there is the
On Feb 16, 2006, at 5:58 PM, James Bennett wrote:
I was being somewhat facetious, but every browser I have within arm's
reach (which includes all the popular browsers except Safari -- I
don't have a Mac here at home to refer to) implements some form of
extended Back functionality which
On 2/16/06, Rick Faaberg [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote:
It's much simpler to close that new window that has all that history in it
and go right back to my site, which is where I need my audience to be. :-)
One click to close the window.
Two clicks to summon the appropriate Back functionality.
Does
ADMIN - THREAD CLOSED
Reason:
There has been a lot of good points raised within this thread, on both
standards and usability. However, we have definitely moved away from
cooperative, useful advice on web standards practices towards strongly held
and vocal personal opinion.
Please do not continue
Bert Doorn wrote:
Serdar Kýlýç wrote:
How does one open a new window with a 4.01 Strict DOCTYPE and have it
be valid? For my weblog I ran the w3 validator and it complained that
there is no attribute called target
The users! Please, won't somebody think of the *users*!
Many users hate popup
Very good points by Lachlan. Personally I got so annoyed for example of cssimport opening links to new window that I just stopped checking that site. It definately should be the visitors choice to open a link in new window or not.
On 2/15/06, Lachlan Hunt [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote:
Bert Doorn wrote:
On 2/15/06, Serdar Kılıç [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote:
How does one open a new window with a 4.01 Strict DOCTYPE and have it
be valid? For my weblog I ran the w3 validator and it complained that
there is no attribute called target
Serdar, you have to trust your visitors. They know how to use the
Lachlan Hunt wrote:
Many users hate popup windows. There are no valid use-cases or reasons
for opening a popup window, don't do it.
I disagree with this statement. In my opinion, there are several very
good use cases.
The primary one is help windows, where instructions can be compared
If I *have* to open a new window, I
use this:
onclick="target='_blank'" onkeypress="target='_blank'"
It is
still script dependent, and does work with key operation as
well.
Mike
Cherimhttp://green-beast.com/http://accessites.org/
How
does one open a new window with a 4.01 Strict
Ian Anderson wrote:
Lachlan Hunt wrote:
Many users hate popup windows. There are no valid use-cases or
reasons for opening a popup window, don't do it.
I disagree with this statement. In my opinion, there are several very
good use cases.
Name one for which a popup window is the only
On 15 Feb 2006, at 11:53, Mike at Green-Beast.com wrote:
If I *have* to open a new window, I use this:
onclick=target='_blank' onkeypress=target='_blank'
It is still script dependent, and does work with key operation as
well.
[pony mode]
?¿? This seems a little ridiculous to me. Just
On 15 Feb 2006, at 12:28, Lachlan Hunt wrote:
What I really don't understand is that there are so many people who
participate in this and various other mailing lists, newsgroups and
forums that actively advise against using popups and explain why
they hate them, yet you still somehow
Lachlan Hunt wrote:
Ian Anderson wrote:
Lachlan Hunt wrote:
I think generalisations like users hate popup windows are perhaps a
little unhelpful.
But the statement is 100% accurate. I, as a user, hate popups. I
know of many others that hate popups too. I did not say all users,
just
Ian Anderson wrote:
I disagree with this statement. In my opinion, there are several very
good use cases.
The primary one is help windows, where instructions can be compared
with the items in the main window. A variant of this is TCs in forms,
where there are serious consequences for the
Hello Stephen,
Don't apologize for being blunt. If
that's how you want to write your sentiments it's fine by me. No offense taken.
For the record, I'm not
sayinghiding the target attribute in a script element isstandards
compliant, andI don't open new windows on any of my sites. None.I
James Gollan wrote:
Lachlan Hunt wrote:
Ian Anderson wrote:
Lachlan Hunt wrote:
I think generalisations like users hate popup windows are perhaps a
little unhelpful.
But the statement is 100% accurate...
It may be technically 100% accurate, but in that case so is the
statement users
Stephen Stagg wrote:
On 15 Feb 2006, at 12:28, Lachlan Hunt wrote:
What I really don't understand is that there are so many people who
participate in this and various other mailing lists, newsgroups and
forums that actively advise against using popups and explain why they
hate them, yet you
From: Ric Raftis [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Bert Doorn wrote:
The main idea is that one should not open new windows at all,
leaving it up to the user to decide, which is why the target
attribute was removed.
G'day Bert,
This always seems to be a subject of some debate. For commercial
sites, I
Designer wrote:
Since then, the systems have grown and improved and are the norm - the
thought of going back to DOS is pretty repellent for nearly everyone,
and esp for folk doing graphics (Photoshop for DOS? Illustrator for DOS?
- the mind boggles!
So, we all work in Windows, of one sort or
Lachlan Hunt wrote:
For what reason are they annoying? You can't just say something is
annoying because you think something else is better, you have explain
what it is about it that is annoying, and perhaps the issue could be
addressed to improve the method without resorting to popups.
I'll
Lachlan Hunt wrote:
[a lot! :-)]
---
Hi Lachlan,
I am not attempting to reply to all your specific points, except in
generalisation.
I think that we all have different ways of working, and that's OK by
me. Your points about tabbing I accept, but for the
Al Sparber:
I think you raise a very valid point. People who rely on a web site
to make money tend to have a much different view of such things and
use much different criteria to judge the merits of various techniques.
Nice pun.
The usually reason cited in support of new windows for money
On 2/15/06, Al Sparber [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote:
From: Ric Raftis [EMAIL PROTECTED]
For commercial
sites, I ALWAYS open a new blank window on a link. I do however
advise users that this will happen and that they only have to close
the new window to return to my site. From a marketing
Designer wrote:
I'm surprised at your comment that the number of windows is being
reduced these days - have you seen Dreamweaver lately?
Dreamweaver has a nice tabbed interface, I'm not sure what you mean.
Flash 7?
No, I don't use flash.
Photoshop?
I find photoshop's use of windows
Jona Decker wrote:
Lachlan Hunt wrote:
For what reason are they annoying? You can't just say something is
annoying because you think something else is better, you have explain
what it is about it that is annoying, and perhaps the issue could be
addressed to improve the method without resorting
From: Terrence Wood [EMAIL PROTECTED]
The usually reason cited in support of new windows for money makers
is that they improve conversion. However, AFAIK there is no
evidence to support this, and in all the literature I have read
(outside of opinions expressed in mailing lists) I am yet to
Christian Montoya wrote:
On 2/15/06, Al Sparber [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote:
From: Ric Raftis [EMAIL PROTECTED]
For commercial
sites, I ALWAYS open a new blank window on a link. I do however
advise users that this will happen and that they only have to
close
the new window to return to my site.
When I first started my weblog all internal links had no target
attribute thereby browsing within my site was within a single window.
Any offsite links were brought up in a new window, a window for each
link clicked.
The way *I* browse some sites is how I built my site. For example, if
I visit
On 15/2/06 6:57 PM, Lachlan Hunt [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote:
Bert Doorn wrote:
Serdar Kýlýç wrote:
How does one open a new window with a 4.01 Strict DOCTYPE and have it
be valid? For my weblog I ran the w3 validator and it complained that
there is no attribute called target
The users!
Lachlan Hunt:
If the viewport isn't the right size...seemingly nothing happens.
The only way I could replicate this in the demo page was by resizing
my window so that the the text box and help button were at the bottom
of the viewport with nothing visible below them.
This is a valid usability
Serdar Kılıç:
The way *I* browse some sites is how I built my site.
Important point: that is your browsing habit. You *can* open new
windows if *you* want or prefer it. Shouldn't you give your users the
same degree of freedom over their browsing experience.
kind regards
Terrence Wood.
Kevin Futter wrote:
On 15/2/06 6:57 PM, Lachlan Hunt [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote:
Many users hate popup windows. There are no valid use-cases or reasons
for opening a popup window, don't do it. If you think you have one, I'd
like to hear it, but know this: I've heard many excuses over the years
Serdar Kılıç wrote:
When I first started my weblog all internal links had no target
attribute thereby browsing within my site was within a single window.
Any offsite links were brought up in a new window, a window for each
link clicked.
The way *I* browse some sites is how I built my site.
But I think the best option is to completely disable the target
attribute to prevent the author from interfering with your decision
and make it yourself, every single time. You cannot possibly rely
on the author to make the right decision for you, because every
user is different.
Stephen Stagg:
browsers with easy settings allowing you to over-ride the
site-specific link behaviors, this way, authors could suggest a
default action for a link and then people who passionately care about
their windows can override it, result; everyone happy.
There is a default action for
Al Sparber:
Doesn't this present yet another usability problem...
can explain what you mean in a bit more detail.
1. Your links open a new window object 'foo'.
2. User now has two windows: their window with your page, 'foo' with
external page.
3. User decides to leave 'foo' open because
On 2/15/06, Al Sparber [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote:
Christian Montoya wrote:
Maybe, but this is just another example of how marketers try to
control the browsing experience. Things have to look a specific way,
behave a specific way, etc... but there isn't any proof that this is
good for
Al Sparber:
You might be right about new windows being a fiscal non-issue when
examined or tested. We do have experience with some frameset impact,
that are downright interesting.
it's our Demo Viewer application. It has an enormous impact on sales.
If I'm not mistaken it reloads a
From: Terrence Wood [EMAIL PROTECTED]
1. Your links open a new window object 'foo'.
2. User now has two windows: their window with your page, 'foo' with
external page.
3. User decides to leave 'foo' open because they are interested in
the page loaded into it, and return to their window to
Lachlan Hunt wrote:
There are no valid use-cases or reasons
for opening a popup window
Well...there's *one*: http://www.useit.com/alertbox/open_new_windows.html
...but only one :)
Mark Pilgrim wrote a concise little page about popups a few years ago:
http://tinyurl.com/4c5n8
Christian Montoya:
I'm not pre-supposing anything. All popup windows break the back
button (popup as in a new window, Javascript or not). When I am done
with the site that pops up, I want to use the back button to get back
to the original site. That is natural web use and popups interfere
with
On 16/2/06 11:47 AM, Al Sparber [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote:
Al Sparber:
If popup windows are scripted you reuse the same window object over
and over. You can never have more than one open. Your statement is
only true if the target attribute is used.
Doesn't this present yet another usability
Jude Robinson wrote:
Lachlan Hunt wrote:
There are no valid use-cases or reasons for opening a popup window
Well...there's *one*: http://www.useit.com/alertbox/open_new_windows.html
No, Jakob is wrong about that one. I know, it's strage, he's rarely
wrong about usability issues, but he
From: Christian Montoya [EMAIL PROTECTED]
You're pre-supposing. If popup windows are scripted you reuse the
same
window object over and over. You can never have more than one open.
Your statement is only true if the target attribute is used.
I'm not pre-supposing anything. All popup windows
Lachlan Hunt wrote:
The users! Please, won't somebody think of the *users*!
This line reminds me of something from my favourite show when I was a kid:
Fantasy Island. the plane, the plane! :)
Let's just change it here to the users, the users!
Can I kindly suggest you all try some usability
Don't assume anything... whether or not it's best practice.
Good points you make here Lisa. If I could pick up on the term best
practice too. It drives me and my colleagues mad, because people seem to
use it as an excuse not to think sometimes. We prefer the term better
practice, and to
Herrod, Lisa wrote:
Lachlan Hunt wrote:
The users! Please, won't somebody think of the *users*!
This line reminds me of something from my favourite show when I was a kid:
Fantasy Island. the plane, the plane! :)
Actually, it's a slightly misquoted line from Helen Lovejoy in the The
On 2/15/06, Al Sparber [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote:
From: Christian Montoya [EMAIL PROTECTED]
You're pre-supposing. If popup windows are scripted you reuse the
same
window object over and over. You can never have more than one open.
Your statement is only true if the target attribute is used.
All popup windows break the back
button (popup as in a new window, Javascript or not).
So if you are 12 clicks into the new site in the original window, you're
fine with clicking back 12 times to get back to the original site?
Wouldn't close window in the new window (with the 12 clicks inside)
Bert Doorn wrote:
The main idea is that one should not open new windows at all, leaving
it up to the user to decide, which is why the target attribute was
removed.
But if you want to (or have to), either go back to transitional or
use javascript. You may find some discussions about it in
Bert Doorn wrote:
The main idea is that one should not open new windows at all, leaving
it up to the user to decide, which is why the target attribute was
removed.
G'day Bert,
This always seems to be a subject of some debate. For commercial sites,
I ALWAYS open a new blank window on a
Hi Sedar,
Try this one http://www.tjkdesign.com/articles/popups.asp
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