Re: [ZION] War on Iraq
Dan R Allen wrote: > Dan: > This would suggest then that we really can't rely on what we hear in the > news to judge whether the war is right or wrong. Wouldn't you agree? > Ever since WWII, the US govt has allowed the media less and less access to the war front. Does this tell you something? -- Marc A. Schindler Spruce Grove, Alberta, Canada -- Gateway to the Boreal Parkland "The greater danger for most of us lies not in setting our aim too high and falling short; but in setting our aim too low, and achieving our mark." --Michelangelo Buonarroti Note: This communication represents the informal personal views of the author solely; its contents do not necessarily reflect those of the authors employer, nor those of any organization with which the author may be associated. / /// ZION LIST CHARTER: Please read it at /// /// http://www.zionsbest.com/charter.html /// / ==^ This email was sent to: archive@jab.org EASY UNSUBSCRIBE click here: http://topica.com/u/?aaP9AU.bWix1n Or send an email to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] T O P I C A -- Register now to manage your mail! http://www.topica.com/partner/tag02/register ==^
Re: [ZION] War on Iraq
Dan R Allen wrote: > At 03:48 PM 9/26/02 -0700 Dan R Allen favored us with: > >Dan: > >I would have a problem with the global wording also, except that he also > >said that this would be a _long_ war; > > John: > In other words a war we have no intention of winning. Sounds like pretty > tricky language to me. > > Dan: > No, the intent is there, but the realization is that this is not going to > be the kind of war that will make for great network ratings. Then it won't happen. And you can quote me on that. -- Marc A. Schindler Spruce Grove, Alberta, Canada -- Gateway to the Boreal Parkland "The greater danger for most of us lies not in setting our aim too high and falling short; but in setting our aim too low, and achieving our mark." --Michelangelo Buonarroti Note: This communication represents the informal personal views of the author solely; its contents do not necessarily reflect those of the authors employer, nor those of any organization with which the author may be associated. / /// ZION LIST CHARTER: Please read it at /// /// http://www.zionsbest.com/charter.html /// / ==^ This email was sent to: archive@jab.org EASY UNSUBSCRIBE click here: http://topica.com/u/?aaP9AU.bWix1n Or send an email to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] T O P I C A -- Register now to manage your mail! http://www.topica.com/partner/tag02/register ==^
Re: [ZION] John Pratt performance art
At 05:50 PM 9/27/2002, you wrote: >At 04:08 PM 9/26/02 -0600 Steven Montgomery favored us with: > >At any rate John Pratt is merely building on a foundation first laid by > the Christian Ministers E. W. Bullinger and Joseph A. Seiss. Bullinger's > work, "Witness of the Stars" can be found online at > http://philologos.org/__eb-tws/default.htm > >Why would any Latter-day Saint build upon a foundation of the ministers of >an apostate religion rather than upon the true prophets of the living God? >--JWR Because, to paraphrase Brigham Young, we believe in seeking out and gathering up truth, all truth, wherever it may be found? -- Steven Montgomery [EMAIL PROTECTED] / /// ZION LIST CHARTER: Please read it at /// /// http://www.zionsbest.com/charter.html /// / ==^ This email was sent to: archive@jab.org EASY UNSUBSCRIBE click here: http://topica.com/u/?aaP9AU.bWix1n Or send an email to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] T O P I C A -- Register now to manage your mail! http://www.topica.com/partner/tag02/register ==^
Re: [ZION] John Pratt performance art
I'm not a Pratt apologist, but Pratt did not invite only 144 people, that is incorrect. I received an invitation myself, but do to distance and a whole lot of other things going on couldn't attend. Pratt does not have a "following" any more than he does when he invites those interested in astronomy to view the stars. Samuelson is simply incorrect in his assessment. -- Steven Montgomery At 03:15 PM 9/27/2002, you wrote: >A rite is a rite is a rite. He performed a rite, basing it several >things, including the restored gospel. Performance art does not normally >include a rite as such. He doesn't seem to be an artist, rather a student >of the esoteric. There's a huge difference. Inviting only 144 people >does not denote performance art, but a rite. Performance art is something >that makes people interested in experiencing, not so they look upon the >author as a prophetic teacher, which Eric's s-i-l obviously did. I've >studied enough stuff on fallen saints to know an apostate when I smell >him. >If he has a following, it isn't performance art. It is a religious >movement. Especially if he is teaching things which are not a part of the >gospel of Jesus Christ. Using the Enoch calendar and the archangels in >his rite, are not things we normally associate with LDS functions. I >just don't see my bishop coming to me and saying, "Gary, would you set up >the next ward social. Oh, and we want you to have the archangels giving >blessings to the members and we'll do some temple things while we're at >it" >Sorry, don't try to excuse him. If Eric is right, and why should we doubt >his description of the event? Then Pratt is off his LDS rocker. > >K'aya K'ama, >Gerald/gary Smithgszion1 @juno.comhttp://www >.geocities.com/rameumptom/index.html >"No one is as hopelessly enslaved as the person who thinks he's free." - >Johann Wolfgang von Goethe > > >Steven Montgomery: >I'm a fan of the truth, not necessarily John Pratt. Yet, In the spirit of > >Moses 6: 63 I have found much of John Pratt's research to be valid and >based on the truth. I admit that some of John Pratt's research is in the >area of speculation (which he himself will readily admit) and find myself > >putting some of his ideas on "back burners" so to speak. I found Eric >Samuelson's criticism a bit harsh, but this was probably to be expected >as >he knew little about it going in. I see his program as no more strange >than >for a backyard gathering of amateur astronomers--which is what John Pratt > >is. Here is an excerpt from what John Pratt says himself about the "Feast > >of Trumpets" program in an email message promoting it: > > > >GET INTERNET ACCESS FROM JUNO! >Juno offers FREE or PREMIUM Internet access for less! >Join Juno today! For your FREE software, visit: >http://dl.www.juno.com/get/web/. > >/ >/// ZION LIST CHARTER: Please read it at /// >/// http://www.zionsbest.com/charter.html /// >/ > -- Steven Montgomery [EMAIL PROTECTED] http://www.getusout.org";>http://www.getusout.org/images/guolink.gif";> / /// ZION LIST CHARTER: Please read it at /// /// http://www.zionsbest.com/charter.html /// / ==^ This email was sent to: archive@jab.org EASY UNSUBSCRIBE click here: http://topica.com/u/?aaP9AU.bWix1n Or send an email to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] T O P I C A -- Register now to manage your mail! http://www.topica.com/partner/tag02/register ==^
RE: [ZION] John Pratt performance art
At 02:41 PM 9/27/2002, you wrote: >Mark Gregson wrote: > > > > > I found Eric > > > Samuelson's criticism a bit harsh, but this was probably to be expected > > > as > > > he knew little about it going in. I see his program as no more strange > > > than > > > for a backyard gathering of amateur astronomers--which is what John > > > Pratt > > > is. Here is an excerpt from what John Pratt says himself about the > > > "Feast > > > of Trumpets" program in an email message promoting it: > > > > > > > > > There will be a symbolic and instructive program, based partly on > > > authentic > > > Hebrew traditions but mostly on my own interpretation, relating it to > > > events of the restoration of the Gospel. > > > > Any way you slice it, the "program" was bizarre. Why the heck would > > anyone want to present "information" in that style? (you can't use the > > temple as a reason because it is real and authorized). > > > >I think that Samuelson's gnostic reference is sadly pretty much bang on. > > >I have read a lot of Samuelson's comments on AML over the years, >although I haven't been there for some months now, maybe even a year or >two, but he probably hasn't changed much. He's playwright and a lot >more liberal minded than the typical ZION lister for sure (isn't >everybody?) but he is a prof at BYU and he even writes some of the >"spoken word" commentaries for the MTC broadcasts, so he does know >better ;->. He can be an irreverant satirist at times. Maybe even most >of the time. And he's perceptive. His remark about "Yo HO that I Were >an Angel" was seen by me in that vein, as a comment on the possibility >that the rather contrived first two notes of that song, sliding from oh >up to OH, (is that a full fifth of an octave?) can be quite difficult to >accomplish artfully and if you aren't careful you end up sounding like a >pirate's Yo HO. He may have just spoiled the song for me forever, which >is the ultimate compliment you can pay to a satirist. > >Actually he seemed to be pretty mild about Pratt's performance. Perhaps >in deference to his Sister in Law or whoever it was in his family who >seems to becoming a fellow travellor. But more than likely he just >figured the thing spoke for itself. How do you satirize something >that's already so far over the top? > >I have to confess that my mind was drawn to the wonderful Isaiah passage >about "wizards who peep and mutter" as I read the review. >"To the law and to the prophets" is where we should turn, as we are >sternly reminded by Isaiah, not to people who claim the right to >instruct us in things of God because of special insight. Interestingly >Isaiah says of such people that there "no light in them." I understand >that Pratt has been published in the Ensign and that tells me that he >should know better too. If part of Pratt's ritual caused Samuelson to >become uncomfortable about temple parody then it must have been >amazingly inappropriate. Samuelson would not blush easily. > >The Isaiah reference can be found at 2 Nephi 18: 19-20 > > > I believe that all rational LDS would have warning alarms going off if > > exposed to this "program". > > > >My ears were ringing. And not with the sound of trumpets! > >Tom Geez, you guys are severe. Pratt is *not* a wizard, peeping and muttering, nor is he claiming any sort of authority from God about special insight. The guy has a Ph'd in astronomy and is a specialist in religious chronology and ancient calendars --hence the emphasis on the ancient Jewish Feast of Trumpets. I think had you actually read some of his articles, although you may not agree with all of his *speculations* (neither do I necessarily), and he is careful to make the distinction, you would be proud to have him as a member of your stake . -- Steven Montgomery [EMAIL PROTECTED] http://www.getusout.org";>http://www.getusout.org/images/guolink.gif";> / /// ZION LIST CHARTER: Please read it at /// /// http://www.zionsbest.com/charter.html /// / ==^ This email was sent to: archive@jab.org EASY UNSUBSCRIBE click here: http://topica.com/u/?aaP9AU.bWix1n Or send an email to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] T O P I C A -- Register now to manage your mail! http://www.topica.com/partner/tag02/register ==^
Re: [ZION] War on Iraq
You know, we haven't found Jimmy Hoffa's body either. Actually, I have it on good authority that OBL is now rooming with Elvis and Jimmy Hoffa. Jon John W. Redelfs wrote: > At 04:50 PM 9/27/02 -0600 Marc A. Schindler favored us with: > >On the WTC. But he orchestrated the first WTC bombing and the bombing of the USS > >Cole, plus the bombing of a disco in Berlin, from his base in Sudan, where he > >likely is now (if not in Kashmir). > > That's another thing that cracks me up with some people's thinking on bin Laden. "He must be dead because we haven't found him." Huh? We haven't found his body either. Our press has made much of the fact that the Al-Qaede is active in over 60 countries. That means that he has friends in over 60 countries that would be at least as willing to shelter him as were those who sheltered Anne Frank during the Holocaust. He could be holed up anywhere. He could be New Jersey. Why do we evern pretend the ability to find him. Eric Rudolph is still at large, for Pete's sake. He's been missing for years. And he is from right here in the USA. / /// ZION LIST CHARTER: Please read it at /// /// http://www.zionsbest.com/charter.html /// / ==^ This email was sent to: archive@jab.org EASY UNSUBSCRIBE click here: http://topica.com/u/?aaP9AU.bWix1n Or send an email to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] T O P I C A -- Register now to manage your mail! http://www.topica.com/partner/tag02/register ==^
Re: [ZION] War on Iraq
This was an ongoing topic on Fox News. The US Ambassador to Saudi Arabia and some state department geeks tried to justify it. It is true. If only it were legal to have satellite dishes in Canada (how in the world did THAT get to be the case?? That's weird!) you could get decent news. Jon John W. Redelfs wrote: > At 04:50 PM 9/27/02 -0600 Marc A. Schindler favored us with: > >> Can you support your statement that the Saudi's are granting visas without > >> US approval? Anyone can print anything they want to, but that doesn't mean > >> that we have to allow them entry. > > How about, "I heard it on MSNBC news?" / /// ZION LIST CHARTER: Please read it at /// /// http://www.zionsbest.com/charter.html /// / ==^ This email was sent to: archive@jab.org EASY UNSUBSCRIBE click here: http://topica.com/u/?aaP9AU.bWix1n Or send an email to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] T O P I C A -- Register now to manage your mail! http://www.topica.com/partner/tag02/register ==^
Re: [ZION] War on Iraq
At 04:50 PM 9/27/02 -0600 Marc A. Schindler favored us with: >> Can you support your statement that the Saudi's are granting visas without >> US approval? Anyone can print anything they want to, but that doesn't mean >> that we have to allow them entry. How about, "I heard it on MSNBC news?" / /// ZION LIST CHARTER: Please read it at /// /// http://www.zionsbest.com/charter.html /// / ==^ This email was sent to: archive@jab.org EASY UNSUBSCRIBE click here: http://topica.com/u/?aaP9AU.bWix1n Or send an email to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] T O P I C A -- Register now to manage your mail! http://www.topica.com/partner/tag02/register ==^
Re: [ZION] War on Iraq
At 04:50 PM 9/27/02 -0600 Marc A. Schindler favored us with: >On the WTC. But he orchestrated the first WTC bombing and the bombing of the USS >Cole, plus the bombing of a disco in Berlin, from his base in Sudan, where he >likely is now (if not in Kashmir). That's another thing that cracks me up with some people's thinking on bin Laden. "He must be dead because we haven't found him." Huh? We haven't found his body either. Our press has made much of the fact that the Al-Qaede is active in over 60 countries. That means that he has friends in over 60 countries that would be at least as willing to shelter him as were those who sheltered Anne Frank during the Holocaust. He could be holed up anywhere. He could be New Jersey. Why do we evern pretend the ability to find him. Eric Rudolph is still at large, for Pete's sake. He's been missing for years. And he is from right here in the USA. John W. Redelfs[EMAIL PROTECTED] * "Trying is the first step toward failure." --Homer Simpson * "All my opinions are tentative pending further data." --JWR / /// ZION LIST CHARTER: Please read it at /// /// http://www.zionsbest.com/charter.html /// / ==^ This email was sent to: archive@jab.org EASY UNSUBSCRIBE click here: http://topica.com/u/?aaP9AU.bWix1n Or send an email to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] T O P I C A -- Register now to manage your mail! http://www.topica.com/partner/tag02/register ==^
Re: [ZION] John Pratt performance art
At 05:49 PM 9/27/02 -0600 Steven Montgomery favored us with: >No more bizarre than some ward road-shows I've seen . I think you need to cut >this guy some slack--he's a teacher and got a program together with like-minded >individuals--what's wrong with that? Maybe he has a flair for the dramatic, but he is >absolutely *not* preaching false doctrine. Perhaps not yet. You have to be admitted to the inner circles among the 144. Ooo. --JWR / /// ZION LIST CHARTER: Please read it at /// /// http://www.zionsbest.com/charter.html /// / ==^ This email was sent to: archive@jab.org EASY UNSUBSCRIBE click here: http://topica.com/u/?aaP9AU.bWix1n Or send an email to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] T O P I C A -- Register now to manage your mail! http://www.topica.com/partner/tag02/register ==^
RE: [ZION] John Pratt performance art
At 08:41 PM 9/27/02 + Tom Matkin favored us with: >I have to confess that my mind was drawn to the wonderful Isaiah passage >about "wizards who peep and mutter" as I read the review. >"To the law and to the prophets" is where we should turn, as we are >sternly reminded by Isaiah, not to people who claim the right to >instruct us in things of God because of special insight. Amen! Surprisingly, those who most resemble your characterization are members of what I call the online Isaiah cult. They reverence the writings of Gileadi and some guy in SLC named Robert K. Smith above the teachings of the prophets. Of course, Gileadi and Smith have written extensively on the topic of Isaiah claiming a deeper insight into Isaiah than the rest of us have. John W. Redelfs[EMAIL PROTECTED] * For we wrestle not against flesh and blood, but against principalities, against powers, against the rulers of the darkness of this world, against spiritual wickedness in high [places]. (Ephesians 6:12) * "All my opinions are tentative pending further data." --JWR / /// ZION LIST CHARTER: Please read it at /// /// http://www.zionsbest.com/charter.html /// / ==^ This email was sent to: archive@jab.org EASY UNSUBSCRIBE click here: http://topica.com/u/?aaP9AU.bWix1n Or send an email to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] T O P I C A -- Register now to manage your mail! http://www.topica.com/partner/tag02/register ==^
Re: [ZION] John Pratt performance art
At 02:34 AM 9/28/02 +0800 Mark Gregson favored us with: >Any way you slice it, the "program" was bizarre. Why the heck would anyone want to >present "information" in that style? (you can't use the temple as a reason because it >is real and authorized). > >I believe that all rational LDS would have warning alarms going off if exposed to >this "program". I get alarm bells going off whenever I hear anything that would be out of place in a General Conference talk, or the Teachings of the Presidents of the Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints. That stuff is weird enough for me. John W. Redelfs[EMAIL PROTECTED] * "If only they knew the deep and all abiding weirdness that lurks under the surface of much of Mormon culture." --Eric Samuelson, AML List, September 25, 2002 * "All my opinions are tentative pending further data." --JWR / /// ZION LIST CHARTER: Please read it at /// /// http://www.zionsbest.com/charter.html /// / ==^ This email was sent to: archive@jab.org EASY UNSUBSCRIBE click here: http://topica.com/u/?aaP9AU.bWix1n Or send an email to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] T O P I C A -- Register now to manage your mail! http://www.topica.com/partner/tag02/register ==^
Re: [ZION] John Pratt performance art
At 04:08 PM 9/26/02 -0600 Steven Montgomery favored us with: >At any rate John Pratt is merely building on a foundation first laid by the Christian >Ministers E. W. Bullinger and Joseph A. Seiss. Bullinger's work, "Witness of the >Stars" can be found online at http://philologos.org/__eb-tws/default.htm Why would any Latter-day Saint build upon a foundation of the ministers of an apostate religion rather than upon the true prophets of the living God? --JWR / /// ZION LIST CHARTER: Please read it at /// /// http://www.zionsbest.com/charter.html /// / ==^ This email was sent to: archive@jab.org EASY UNSUBSCRIBE click here: http://topica.com/u/?aaP9AU.bWix1n Or send an email to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] T O P I C A -- Register now to manage your mail! http://www.topica.com/partner/tag02/register ==^
Re: [ZION] John Pratt performance art
At 04:08 PM 9/26/02 -0600 Steven Montgomery favored us with: >I'm a fan of the truth, not necessarily John Pratt. Yet, In the spirit of Moses 6: 63 >I have found much of John Pratt's research to be valid and based on the truth. I >admit that some of John Pratt's research is in the area of speculation (which he >himself will readily admit) and find myself putting some of his ideas on "back >burners" so to speak. I found Eric Samuelson's criticism a bit harsh, but this was >probably to be expected as he knew little about it going in. I see his program as no >more strange than for a backyard gathering of amateur astronomers--which is what John >Pratt is. Here is an excerpt from what John Pratt says himself about the "Feast of >Trumpets" program in an email message promoting it: Certainly no more strange than an Endowment session. --JWR / /// ZION LIST CHARTER: Please read it at /// /// http://www.zionsbest.com/charter.html /// / ==^ This email was sent to: archive@jab.org EASY UNSUBSCRIBE click here: http://topica.com/u/?aaP9AU.bWix1n Or send an email to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] T O P I C A -- Register now to manage your mail! http://www.topica.com/partner/tag02/register ==^
RE: [ZION] John Pratt performance art
At 03:24 AM 9/27/02 +0800 Mark Gregson favored us with: >Most of my glimpses of the bizarre subculture have not been while I have been a >bishop. > >I have noticed that the male version of subculture weirdness tends towards the John >Pratt style i.e. esoteric "doctrine" whereas the female version tends towards non-LDS >inspired lunacy (New Age nonsense, usually). Perhaps that's just my limited >experience. This really cracks me up. I've been true and faithful for over 30 years, but I still understand that WE are the weird subculture, not those who need to confess to the bishop. They are probably just being normal. John W. Redelfs[EMAIL PROTECTED] * "If only they knew the deep and all abiding weirdness that lurks under the surface of much of Mormon culture." --Eric Samuelson, AML List, September 25, 2002 * "All my opinions are tentative pending further data." --JWR / /// ZION LIST CHARTER: Please read it at /// /// http://www.zionsbest.com/charter.html /// / ==^ This email was sent to: archive@jab.org EASY UNSUBSCRIBE click here: http://topica.com/u/?aaP9AU.bWix1n Or send an email to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] T O P I C A -- Register now to manage your mail! http://www.topica.com/partner/tag02/register ==^
Re: [ZION] Worldnet Daily, Newsmax
> The problem with getting the "real" Taliban side of the story, or the > Palestinian side for that matter, is the severe limitations those regimes > place on what is released to the world new services. Marc: ???bin Laden regularly makes news release via video to a popular TV station in Qatar. Does the US have an Arabicist in Doha? Why not? Dan: And this disproves what I said how? There are plenty of English language reporters that work in those countries - yet we seem to get very little information out except "death to America" type spiels. Some of it is undoubtedly filtering on our part, but there is also a lot of filtering on the part of the regimes in power there. / /// ZION LIST CHARTER: Please read it at /// /// http://www.zionsbest.com/charter.html /// / ==^ This email was sent to: archive@jab.org EASY UNSUBSCRIBE click here: http://topica.com/u/?aaP9AU.bWix1n Or send an email to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] T O P I C A -- Register now to manage your mail! http://www.topica.com/partner/tag02/register ==^
RE: [ZION] John Pratt performance art
At 06:25 PM 9/26/02 + Stephen Beecroft favored us with: >I agree, and I think (to quote Homer, the great American philosopher) >it's funny because it's true, or perhaps it's funny because it isn't me. >Except that I suspect that almost all of us really do have an "inner >gnostic", and that we like the idea of having this great, secret >knowledge that helps us understand things better than our benighted >brethren (or maybe just makes us frustrated that they aren't as >perceptive as we are). And imagine a world where we couldn't look down on such people, and ridicule them, and persecute them. "For so persecuted they the prophets which were before you." Some people really do have a secret. Usually it is one we are willing to share. But there are rarely and takers. They are like the rich guests who were too busy to come to the feast. So go out into the street and invite the beggars, the halt, the lame, the poor, the hungry. You know, those who can appreciate a feast even if it does seem a little strange. I notice that over the last 15 years virtually every new member that has been a convert baptism in our ward has been from among the poor. Not one prosperous family has come into the Church during that time. That is strange because most of the families in the ward are quite properous. Hmm. Strange. John W. Redelfs[EMAIL PROTECTED] * For we wrestle not against flesh and blood, but against principalities, against powers, against the rulers of the darkness of this world, against spiritual wickedness in high [places]. (Ephesians 6:12) * "All my opinions are tentative pending further data." --JWR / /// ZION LIST CHARTER: Please read it at /// /// http://www.zionsbest.com/charter.html /// / ==^ This email was sent to: archive@jab.org EASY UNSUBSCRIBE click here: http://topica.com/u/?aaP9AU.bWix1n Or send an email to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] T O P I C A -- Register now to manage your mail! http://www.topica.com/partner/tag02/register ==^
Re: [ZION] John Pratt performance art
At 12:34 PM 9/27/2002, you wrote: > > > I found Eric > > Samuelson's criticism a bit harsh, but this was probably to be expected as > > he knew little about it going in. I see his program as no more strange > than > > for a backyard gathering of amateur astronomers--which is what John Pratt > > is. Here is an excerpt from what John Pratt says himself about the "Feast > > of Trumpets" program in an email message promoting it: > > > > > > There will be a symbolic and instructive program, based partly on authentic > > Hebrew traditions but mostly on my own interpretation, relating it to > > events of the restoration of the Gospel. > >Any way you slice it, the "program" was bizarre. Why the heck would >anyone want to present "information" in that style? (you can't use the >temple as a reason because it is real and authorized). > >I believe that all rational LDS would have warning alarms going off if >exposed to this "program". > >= Mark Gregson [EMAIL PROTECTED] = No more bizarre than some ward road-shows I've seen . I think you need to cut this guy some slack--he's a teacher and got a program together with like-minded individuals--what's wrong with that? Maybe he has a flair for the dramatic, but he is absolutely *not* preaching false doctrine. -- Steven Montgomery [EMAIL PROTECTED] / /// ZION LIST CHARTER: Please read it at /// /// http://www.zionsbest.com/charter.html /// / ==^ This email was sent to: archive@jab.org EASY UNSUBSCRIBE click here: http://topica.com/u/?aaP9AU.bWix1n Or send an email to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] T O P I C A -- Register now to manage your mail! http://www.topica.com/partner/tag02/register ==^
Re: [ZION] John Pratt performance art
At 01:28 AM 9/27/02 +0800 Mark Gregson favored us with: >I can guarantee that those involved in various subculture weirdness do not pay >attention to the scriptures and the Brethren. They may read and they may listen but >they are deliberately sifting for what they want to hear. What I cannot understand >is how basically good LDS people get into such weirdness. I mean, you compare the >true gospel with something like John Pratt's little ritual and your warning sirens >would just have to start screaming. Nothing could be more weird than the true gospel. It is the ultimate proof that truth is stranger than fiction. --JWR / /// ZION LIST CHARTER: Please read it at /// /// http://www.zionsbest.com/charter.html /// / ==^ This email was sent to: archive@jab.org EASY UNSUBSCRIBE click here: http://topica.com/u/?aaP9AU.bWix1n Or send an email to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] T O P I C A -- Register now to manage your mail! http://www.topica.com/partner/tag02/register ==^
Re: [ZION] War on Iraq
Marc: What the U.S. government has has to come from its intelligence agencies. Unless you have a suggested alternative source? Dan: What I'm suggesting is that they are not releasing every bit of information to the press. Marc: > I see they haven't given a specific citation to Jane's. Also, CNS is a > subsidiary > of the Media Research Center, whose stated purpose is to be "The Leader in > Documenting, Exposing and Neutralizing Liberal Media Bias" > http://www.mediaresearch.org/ > > Gosh, you don't think they'd have a conservative, pro-war bias, do you? > Dan: Certainly conservative - therefore unreliable? > > http://www.cnsnews.com/ForeignBureaus/Archive/200204/FOR20020412f.html > Marc: > Did you even read this? It doesn't talk about Iraq, but *Saudi Arabia* > giving the > survivors cash payments. Sounds like Rumsfeld's confused. The article said > he > didn't know anything about the Saudi program. Oh well, they all look alike, > don't > they :-/ > Dan: Yes I did read it; this is one of three paragraphs discussing how Saddam _also_ provides payments to the families of the bombers. But since CNS is too untrustworthy, how about the Guardian? http://www.observer.co.uk/international/story/0,6903,619495,00.html?FACTNet "In life most suicide bombers are nobodies, but in death they rise and become shaheed, and their families rise with them. Each martyr's family receives an official certificate of martyrdom from the Iraqi dictator Saddam Hussein, and a prize of $10,000." Or here: http://www.smh.com.au/articles/2002/03/25/1017004766310.html Or here: http://www.washtimes.com/national/20020825-77873160.htm / /// ZION LIST CHARTER: Please read it at /// /// http://www.zionsbest.com/charter.html /// / ==^ This email was sent to: archive@jab.org EASY UNSUBSCRIBE click here: http://topica.com/u/?aaP9AU.bWix1n Or send an email to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] T O P I C A -- Register now to manage your mail! http://www.topica.com/partner/tag02/register ==^
[ZION] A Strange People
"If only they knew the deep and all abiding weirdness that lurks under the surface of much of Mormon culture." --Eric Samuelson, AML List, September 25, 2002 I just now got to reading the beginning of the Pratt thread, and I ran across this sentence in Samuelson's post. I love it. Most Latter-day Saints cannot imagine how weird the LDS doctrines are to an outsider. Buying into it requires a major paradigm shift. The reason that Mormons don't talk like the rest of the world is because they don't think like the rest of the world. From the perspective of the typical, traditional Christian, Mormonism is truly bizarre. God is a man? You've got to be kidding. There are people just like us on other planets? Surely you jest. Even thought I am merely an intelligent animal I am going to become a god? Weird. Life before birth? Where did that come from? A drug induced dream? What do you mean, "God lives on a planet near Kolob?" Just the thought that the Father and the Son appeared to a 14 year old farm boy in the early 19th century on the American frontier is utterly... fantastical, something that only the most imaginative SF writer could come up with. And yet, the investigator is left with only two options. Either it is true. Or it is false. And those few who can make the leap in deciding it is true, will never look at the world the same again. Everything is changed for them. They have bought into something... major, unthinkable, beyond wonder. Mormons are as unlike traditional Christians as the SLC temple is unlike anything else you ever saw on this earth. It is alien. It couldn't possibly have started here. It is too strange. When we say that we a peculiar people we should capitalize the word Peculiar. Some may like to think we are just like everyone else, but we most definitely are not. I think we need to remember how strange we really are, and luxuriate in it basking in the life giving light of that strangeness. "For the LORD shall rise up as [in] mount Perazim, he shall be wroth as [in] the valley of Gibeon, that he may do his work, his strange work; and bring to pass his act, his strange act." (Isaiah 28:21) John W. Redelfs[EMAIL PROTECTED] * For we wrestle not against flesh and blood, but against principalities, against powers, against the rulers of the darkness of this world, against spiritual wickedness in high [places]. (Ephesians 6:12) * "All my opinions are tentative pending further data." --JWR / /// ZION LIST CHARTER: Please read it at /// /// http://www.zionsbest.com/charter.html /// / ==^ This email was sent to: archive@jab.org EASY UNSUBSCRIBE click here: http://topica.com/u/?aaP9AU.bWix1n Or send an email to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] T O P I C A -- Register now to manage your mail! http://www.topica.com/partner/tag02/register ==^
Re: [ZION] War on Iraq
> Dan: > Where is the evidence that those 15 were sent by the Saudi government? Marc: Their passports. John didn't say they were sent by the Saudi government, he merely pointed out that they were Saudis, which is true. Dan: I wasn't denying that they were Saudi's; only that they were not operating under orders from the Saudi government. On the other hand, Iraq's government, through Saddam, has been linked to terrorism. > > Osama bin Laden was exiled from Saudi Arabia well before the attacks. ???On the WTC.??? - What does this mean? But he orchestrated the first WTC bombing and the bombing of the USS Cole, plus the bombing of a disco in Berlin, from his base in Sudan, where he likely is now (if not in Kashmir). Marc: The government almost certainly not, but I'm not aware of anyone making that claim. It is the "fraternal brotherhoods," the "Ikhwan" (association of Moslem Brotherhood -- like the Knights of Columbus to the Catholics) and madrassam, or religious schools, that do the fund-raising. They are based in Saudi because "that's where the money is." Dan: And this is what I was talking about. The Saudi government is not supporting this (at least officially), but is unable to deal with brotherhoods without losing support and power. > Last I heard we still have bases in Saudi Arabia - Marc: You have one base near Dhohar, and its status is in doubt. When you build a base in a foreign country its status is always that of a guest installation of the host country. You know, like Guantanamo Bay and Panama City. Well, on second thought, let's not go too far with the hospitality thang. Dan: Nevertheless, it is still there, and still in operation. The personnel are even allowed to leave the base and play the tourist in town. I suspect that this is also the base where the Southern Iraqi no-fly zone is patrolled from. Germany would probably be a better example for what you're looking for. / /// ZION LIST CHARTER: Please read it at /// /// http://www.zionsbest.com/charter.html /// / ==^ This email was sent to: archive@jab.org EASY UNSUBSCRIBE click here: http://topica.com/u/?aaP9AU.bWix1n Or send an email to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] T O P I C A -- Register now to manage your mail! http://www.topica.com/partner/tag02/register ==^
Re: [ZION] Worldnet Daily, Newsmax
Dan R Allen wrote: > Dan: > I think that they are probably more reliable than many sources are, > although their bias is probably a little too conservative for some. All > sources are going to be somewhat biased in what they feel is newsworthy, > whether it's due to their focus or editorial bias. I also tend to stay way > from the opinion pieces as much as I can since they are little more than > pure propaganda. > > The problem with getting the "real" Taliban side of the story, or the > Palestinian side for that matter, is the severe limitations those regimes > place on what is released to the world new services. ???bin Laden regularly makes news release via video to a popular TV station in Qatar. Does the US have an Arabicist in Doha? Why not? -- Marc A. Schindler Spruce Grove, Alberta, Canada -- Gateway to the Boreal Parkland "The greater danger for most of us lies not in setting our aim too high and falling short; but in setting our aim too low, and achieving our mark." --Michelangelo Buonarroti Note: This communication represents the informal personal views of the author solely; its contents do not necessarily reflect those of the authors employer, nor those of any organization with which the author may be associated. / /// ZION LIST CHARTER: Please read it at /// /// http://www.zionsbest.com/charter.html /// / ==^ This email was sent to: archive@jab.org EASY UNSUBSCRIBE click here: http://topica.com/u/?aaP9AU.bWix1n Or send an email to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] T O P I C A -- Register now to manage your mail! http://www.topica.com/partner/tag02/register ==^
Re: [ZION] Worldnet Daily, Newsmax
"John W. Redelfs" wrote: > For instance, has any English publication given the Taliban side of the story? I'll >bet the answer is no. How many English language histories of WWII accurately report >the German point of view even in English translation from the German? > Forgot one thing. Try "The 99 Names of God," by Judith Miller, of the New York Times. Should be readily available by inter-library loan. > > I like to read both sides of any argument, and often it is hard to find more than >one side. That always triggers my propaganda alert. How much of our news is really >objective reporting rather than propaganda? > > John W. Redelfs[EMAIL PROTECTED] > * > "Don't put off until tomorrow what you can put off until the > day after tomorrow." -- Mark Twain > * > "All my opinions are tentative pending further data." --JWR > > / > /// ZION LIST CHARTER: Please read it at /// > /// http://www.zionsbest.com/charter.html /// > / > -- Marc A. Schindler Spruce Grove, Alberta, Canada -- Gateway to the Boreal Parkland "The greater danger for most of us lies not in setting our aim too high and falling short; but in setting our aim too low, and achieving our mark." --Michelangelo Buonarroti Note: This communication represents the informal personal views of the author solely; its contents do not necessarily reflect those of the authors employer, nor those of any organization with which the author may be associated. / /// ZION LIST CHARTER: Please read it at /// /// http://www.zionsbest.com/charter.html /// / ==^^=== This email was sent to: archive@jab.org EASY UNSUBSCRIBE click here: http://topica.com/u/?aaP9AU.bWix1n Or send an email to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] T O P I C A -- Register now to manage your mail! http://www.topica.com/partner/tag02/register ==^^===
Re: [ZION] Worldnet Daily, Newsmax
"John W. Redelfs" wrote: > Is Worldnet Daily or Newsmax a reliable source for information on current events? >If not, what sources do you think are reliable? I know that Marc likes The >Economist. What about the rest of you? I myself don't think that The Economist >pumps out bad data. But I do believe it is quite biased in what it decides to report >on. A person doesn't have to lie to be dishonest, and neither does a publication. >Telling only one side of a story is not honest. > It does have its biases (it's Libertarian, or as they call it in Europe, Liberal), but that's why I gave a list, not just the Economist. After all, I like the WSJ, too -- it produces good facts -- even though I don't like their editorial stance. > > For instance, has any English publication given the Taliban side of the story? I'll >bet the answer is no. How many English language histories of WWII accurately report >the German point of view even in English translation from the German? > > I like to read both sides of any argument, and often it is hard to find more than >one side. That always triggers my propaganda alert. How much of our news is really >objective reporting rather than propaganda? > > John W. Redelfs[EMAIL PROTECTED] > * > "Don't put off until tomorrow what you can put off until the > day after tomorrow." -- Mark Twain > * > "All my opinions are tentative pending further data." --JWR > > / > /// ZION LIST CHARTER: Please read it at /// > /// http://www.zionsbest.com/charter.html /// > / > -- Marc A. Schindler Spruce Grove, Alberta, Canada -- Gateway to the Boreal Parkland "The greater danger for most of us lies not in setting our aim too high and falling short; but in setting our aim too low, and achieving our mark." --Michelangelo Buonarroti Note: This communication represents the informal personal views of the author solely; its contents do not necessarily reflect those of the authors employer, nor those of any organization with which the author may be associated. / /// ZION LIST CHARTER: Please read it at /// /// http://www.zionsbest.com/charter.html /// / ==^^=== This email was sent to: archive@jab.org EASY UNSUBSCRIBE click here: http://topica.com/u/?aaP9AU.bWix1n Or send an email to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] T O P I C A -- Register now to manage your mail! http://www.topica.com/partner/tag02/register ==^^===
Re: [ZION] War on Iraq
Dan R Allen wrote: > Marc: > In any case, do you seriously think this piece of intelligence is > sufficient for > George III to build invasion plans on, even if it were true? After all, do > you > have any idea how many intelligence services the *U.S.* has? Just a rough > guess > > Dan: > If this is _all_ that they have no, but do you _really_ believe that this > it all of it? > Most likely what we get is just the stuff that they control the least. > I'm not even sure that George knows > What the U.S. government has has to come from its intelligence agencies. Unless you have a suggested alternative source? > > Dan R Allen wrote: > > > Dan: > > Saddam may not have ordered the attacks, but it is very likely that he > was > > involved in the planning, or financial and intel support. > > http://www.cnsnews.com/Pentagon/Archive/200109/PEN20010925a.html > > "the CIA is looking into whether one of the suicide pilots in the Sept. > 11 > > attacks - Mohammed Atta - met Iraqi agents while he was organizing his > > terrorist cell in the German city of Hamburg." > > "In addition, Jane's Foreign Report, a highly regarded intelligence > > publication, reports that Israel's military intelligence service, Aman, > > suspects that Iraq sponsored the suicide attacks on the World Trade > Center > > and the Pentagon." > > I see they haven't given a specific citation to Jane's. Also, CNS is a > subsidiary > of the Media Research Center, whose stated purpose is to be "The Leader in > Documenting, Exposing and Neutralizing Liberal Media Bias" > http://www.mediaresearch.org/ > > Gosh, you don't think they'd have a conservative, pro-war bias, do you? > > > > > > > He has supported, and continues to support the recruitment of suicide > > bombers by paying the surviving families: > > http://www.cnsnews.com/ForeignBureaus/Archive/200204/FOR20020412f.html > > Did you even read this? It doesn't talk about Iraq, but *Saudi Arabia* > giving the > survivors cash payments. Sounds like Rumsfeld's confused. The article said > he > didn't know anything about the Saudi program. Oh well, they all look alike, > don't > they :-/ > > > > > "Last week, Defense Secretary Donald Rumsfeld criticized Saddam for > > increasing from $10,000 to $25,000 the compensation he is prepared to pay > > families who send one of their own to become a suicide bomber." > > > > -- > Marc A. Schindler > Spruce Grove, Alberta, Canada -- Gateway to the Boreal Parkland > > "The greater danger for most of us lies not in setting our aim too high and > falling short; but in setting our aim too low, and achieving our mark." > --Michelangelo Buonarroti > > Note: This communication represents the informal personal views of the > author > solely; its contents do not necessarily reflect those of the author's > employer, > nor those of any organization with which the author may be associated. > > / > > /// ZION LIST CHARTER: Please read it at /// > /// http://www.zionsbest.com/charter.html /// > / > > / > /// ZION LIST CHARTER: Please read it at /// > /// http://www.zionsbest.com/charter.html /// > / > -- Marc A. Schindler Spruce Grove, Alberta, Canada -- Gateway to the Boreal Parkland "The greater danger for most of us lies not in setting our aim too high and falling short; but in setting our aim too low, and achieving our mark." --Michelangelo Buonarroti Note: This communication represents the informal personal views of the author solely; its contents do not necessarily reflect those of the authors employer, nor those of any organization with which the author may be associated. / /// ZION LIST CHARTER: Please read it at /// /// http://www.zionsbest.com/charter.html /// / ==^ This email was sent to: archive@jab.org EASY UNSUBSCRIBE click here: http://topica.com/u/?aaP9AU.bWix1n Or send an email to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] T O P I C A -- Register now to manage your mail! http://www.topica.com/partner/tag02/register ==^
Re: [ZION] War on Iraq
Dan R Allen wrote: > John: > As for you claim that the Saudi's "show a willingness to work with us to at > least reduce the terrorism," I would like to see you support that > statement. 15 of the 19 who made the suicide attacks were Saudis. Osama > bin Laden is Saudi. Supposedly the attacks were motivated by his hatred of > US bases on Saudi soil. The Saudis are still granting visas for travel to > the USA by way of various travel agencies, not requiring any screening by > our embassy there. The Saudis have been financing much of the terrorism > in the Middle East. And it is they who have been putting up money for the > families of suicide bomber, not Saddam Hussein. > > Dan: > Where is the evidence that those 15 were sent by the Saudi government? Their passports. John didn't say they were sent by the Saudi government, he merely pointed out that they were Saudis, which is true. > > Osama bin Laden was exiled from Saudi Arabia well before the attacks. On the WTC. But he orchestrated the first WTC bombing and the bombing of the USS Cole, plus the bombing of a disco in Berlin, from his base in Sudan, where he likely is now (if not in Kashmir). > > Can you support your statement that the Saudi's are granting visas without > US approval? Anyone can print anything they want to, but that doesn't mean > that we have to allow them entry. I'd want more info on this, too. Country X doesn't issue a visa to visit Country Y; it's the other way around -- Country Y issues visas to citizens of Country X to allow them to visit Country Y. > > I'm aware that there is Saudi support for much of the Palestinian > terrorism, They bankroll the civilian administration of the PLO to the tune of $250 million a year. > but do you have any evidence that they have been supporting > anti-American terrorism? The government almost certainly not, but I'm not aware of anyone making that claim. It is the "fraternal brotherhoods," the "Ikhwan" (association of Moslem Brotherhood -- like the Knights of Columbus to the Catholics) and madrassam, or religious schools, that do the fund-raising. They are based in Saudi because "that's where the money is." > Last I heard we still have bases in Saudi Arabia - You have one base near Dhohar, and its status is in doubt. When you build a base in a foreign country its status is always that of a guest installation of the host country. You know, like Guantanamo Bay and Panama City. Well, on second thought, let's not go too far with the hospitality thang. > > much to the consternation of OBL assuming he's still alive of course. > You need to go back and re-read that article I linked to, specifically the > paragraph that I also pasted with it. > > -- Marc A. Schindler Spruce Grove, Alberta, Canada -- Gateway to the Boreal Parkland "The greater danger for most of us lies not in setting our aim too high and falling short; but in setting our aim too low, and achieving our mark." --Michelangelo Buonarroti Note: This communication represents the informal personal views of the author solely; its contents do not necessarily reflect those of the authors employer, nor those of any organization with which the author may be associated. / /// ZION LIST CHARTER: Please read it at /// /// http://www.zionsbest.com/charter.html /// / ==^ This email was sent to: archive@jab.org EASY UNSUBSCRIBE click here: http://topica.com/u/?aaP9AU.bWix1n Or send an email to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] T O P I C A -- Register now to manage your mail! http://www.topica.com/partner/tag02/register ==^
Re: [ZION] War on Iraq
Good points and analysis. Let's move to more nuclear and solar and fuel cell energy and let the Saudis sink into their own cesspool. of course, we may have another Iraq to deal with, but, then, that will give us something to argue about. Jon Gary Smith wrote: > Let's see: 17 of 19 hijackers in the WTC were Saudis. Osama Bin Laden's > father owns the largest construction firm in Saudi Arabia. The official > Saudi news organization condemns the US, and calls the suicide bombers, > "martyrs." > > The actual problem isn't that the Saudi head prince is against the US. > The problem is (and this is true with many of the Arab nations) that they > have severe economic and political struggles. Rather than have the poor > and struggling mad at the crown prince, they divert people's anger > towards the West and Israel. In this way, they don't risk losing their > power to a democracy; and they don't have to fix the problems. > > So we get an unofficial/official support of Western aggression. / /// ZION LIST CHARTER: Please read it at /// /// http://www.zionsbest.com/charter.html /// / ==^ This email was sent to: archive@jab.org EASY UNSUBSCRIBE click here: http://topica.com/u/?aaP9AU.bWix1n Or send an email to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] T O P I C A -- Register now to manage your mail! http://www.topica.com/partner/tag02/register ==^
Re: [ZION] War on Iraq
Those who don't want to do something in Iraq for whatever reasons diminish any evidence. Those who want to do something enhance any evidence. >From my perspective, the evidence is sufficient. Many people are convicted of crimes in our criminal system based upon circumstantial evidence. As an example of how this applies: The Al Quaeda cells in the US were very interested in crop dusters. Saddam has a fleet of crop dusters for spreading bio and chem WOMM in his area of influence. Now where in the world would our Al Quaeda friends get the material to spread in the US? The UN says "from Iraq." For the pro-ouster folks, that, combined with a lot of other similar "evidence," paints a compelling and chilling picture. For the anti-ouster folks, it's just circumstantial, we might be wrong and might be convicting an innocent man (Saddam). In February 1998, Clinton et al said that Saddam was very close to having reconstituted his WOMM and we needed to go in. But here it is, more than four years later, and if you assume that Saddam had nothing to do with September 11, 2001, and you assume that our response in disrupting OBL and AQ did not foil other plans, then Clinton et al were wrong and Saddam is not a threat to us. So, if it were up to you, personally, to be responsible for making the decision, would you feel comfortable doing nothing more than we are now? In spite of the Chezk reports to the contrary, would you feel comfortable with your assumptions that Saddam did nothing against us, and that he will not in the future? Would you ignore his attempts to contract the killing of Bush 41? Are you confortable that Saddam will not attack Israel, and that we will not respond if he does, during which response our men and women will be subjected to WOMM which Saddam has had many more years to develop? I do not know what I would do, if I had the responsibility that President Bush has. It's relatively easy for me to sit here, with basically no say in the outcome other than my one little vote and my one big mouth, and pontificate. However, I do have the responsibilty to use my one puny little vote as wisely as I can, and therefore I must vote for those who view the threat from Saddam as viable and imminent. I understand that there are others who feel differently, although I cannot follow their logic, other than to acknowledge that they don't give as much weight as I do to the information I consider to be evidence. Whatever the reasons for Clinton's desire to go into Iraq in 1998, I do wish we would have. And frankly, you liberals out there should wish that he did as well. For had he done this, I feel that the likelihood that September 11 would have happened would have been severely diminished, and Gore would probably be President right now. Jon / /// ZION LIST CHARTER: Please read it at /// /// http://www.zionsbest.com/charter.html /// / ==^ This email was sent to: archive@jab.org EASY UNSUBSCRIBE click here: http://topica.com/u/?aaP9AU.bWix1n Or send an email to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] T O P I C A -- Register now to manage your mail! http://www.topica.com/partner/tag02/register ==^
[ZION] John Pratt performance art
A rite is a rite is a rite. He performed a rite, basing it several things, including the restored gospel. Performance art does not normally include a rite as such. He doesn't seem to be an artist, rather a student of the esoteric. There's a huge difference. Inviting only 144 people does not denote performance art, but a rite. Performance art is something that makes people interested in experiencing, not so they look upon the author as a prophetic teacher, which Eric's s-i-l obviously did. I've studied enough stuff on fallen saints to know an apostate when I smell him. If he has a following, it isn't performance art. It is a religious movement. Especially if he is teaching things which are not a part of the gospel of Jesus Christ. Using the Enoch calendar and the archangels in his rite, are not things we normally associate with LDS functions. I just don't see my bishop coming to me and saying, "Gary, would you set up the next ward social. Oh, and we want you to have the archangels giving blessings to the members and we'll do some temple things while we're at it" Sorry, don't try to excuse him. If Eric is right, and why should we doubt his description of the event? Then Pratt is off his LDS rocker. K'aya K'ama, Gerald/gary Smithgszion1 @juno.comhttp://www .geocities.com/rameumptom/index.html "No one is as hopelessly enslaved as the person who thinks he's free." - Johann Wolfgang von Goethe Steven Montgomery: I'm a fan of the truth, not necessarily John Pratt. Yet, In the spirit of Moses 6: 63 I have found much of John Pratt's research to be valid and based on the truth. I admit that some of John Pratt's research is in the area of speculation (which he himself will readily admit) and find myself putting some of his ideas on "back burners" so to speak. I found Eric Samuelson's criticism a bit harsh, but this was probably to be expected as he knew little about it going in. I see his program as no more strange than for a backyard gathering of amateur astronomers--which is what John Pratt is. Here is an excerpt from what John Pratt says himself about the "Feast of Trumpets" program in an email message promoting it: GET INTERNET ACCESS FROM JUNO! Juno offers FREE or PREMIUM Internet access for less! Join Juno today! For your FREE software, visit: http://dl.www.juno.com/get/web/. / /// ZION LIST CHARTER: Please read it at /// /// http://www.zionsbest.com/charter.html /// / ==^ This email was sent to: archive@jab.org EASY UNSUBSCRIBE click here: http://topica.com/u/?aaP9AU.bWix1n Or send an email to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] T O P I C A -- Register now to manage your mail! http://www.topica.com/partner/tag02/register ==^
[ZION] WorldNetDaily, NewsMax
I think they are also biased to a conservative stance. However, as long as your realize there are biases in the media, then try and read things from the left, right and middle; you will probably get a rather decent balance. It will help you see the viewpoints from all sides, and make your own decision. K'aya K'ama, Gerald/gary Smithgszion1 @juno.comhttp://www .geocities.com/rameumptom/index.html "No one is as hopelessly enslaved as the person who thinks he's free." - Johann Wolfgang von Goethe jwr: Is Worldnet Daily or Newsmax a reliable source for information on current events? If not, what sources do you think are reliable? I know that Marc likes The Economist. What about the rest of you? I myself don't think that The Economist pumps out bad data. But I do believe it is quite biased in what it decides to report on. A person doesn't have to lie to be dishonest, and neither does a publication. Telling only one side of a story is not honest. GET INTERNET ACCESS FROM JUNO! Juno offers FREE or PREMIUM Internet access for less! Join Juno today! For your FREE software, visit: http://dl.www.juno.com/get/web/. / /// ZION LIST CHARTER: Please read it at /// /// http://www.zionsbest.com/charter.html /// / ==^ This email was sent to: archive@jab.org EASY UNSUBSCRIBE click here: http://topica.com/u/?aaP9AU.bWix1n Or send an email to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] T O P I C A -- Register now to manage your mail! http://www.topica.com/partner/tag02/register ==^
[ZION] War on Iraq
Let's see: 17 of 19 hijackers in the WTC were Saudis. Osama Bin Laden's father owns the largest construction firm in Saudi Arabia. The official Saudi news organization condemns the US, and calls the suicide bombers, "martyrs." The actual problem isn't that the Saudi head prince is against the US. The problem is (and this is true with many of the Arab nations) that they have severe economic and political struggles. Rather than have the poor and struggling mad at the crown prince, they divert people's anger towards the West and Israel. In this way, they don't risk losing their power to a democracy; and they don't have to fix the problems. So we get an unofficial/official support of Western aggression. K'aya K'ama, Gerald/gary Smithgszion1 @juno.comhttp://www .geocities.com/rameumptom/index.html "No one is as hopelessly enslaved as the person who thinks he's free." - Johann Wolfgang von Goethe At 01:11 PM 9/26/02 -0700 Dan R Allen favored us with: >I'm aware that there is Saudi support for much of the Palestinian >terrorism, but do you have any evidence that they have been supporting >anti-American terrorism? GET INTERNET ACCESS FROM JUNO! Juno offers FREE or PREMIUM Internet access for less! Join Juno today! For your FREE software, visit: http://dl.www.juno.com/get/web/. / /// ZION LIST CHARTER: Please read it at /// /// http://www.zionsbest.com/charter.html /// / ==^ This email was sent to: archive@jab.org EASY UNSUBSCRIBE click here: http://topica.com/u/?aaP9AU.bWix1n Or send an email to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] T O P I C A -- Register now to manage your mail! http://www.topica.com/partner/tag02/register ==^
Re: [ZION] Recession or Depression?
Depression is what we drop into when you lose your job. However, it is not absolute. My wife keeps me too busy at the bookstore, and the Stake keeps me too busy the rest of the time, for me to have the time to get depressed. A depression also usually follows a recession in your hair line. And it usually does take two quarters to admit that it is happening. I could actually use a little depression. You know, lay around watching the Food Channel, eating anything chocolate, feeling sorry for myself, ignoring the kids, etc. Hm .. maybe not. Jon John W. Redelfs wrote: > Recession > A recession is defined as a period of two or more successive quarters of decreasing production. Production is measured by a number of variables. Real Gross Domestic Product is one important measure. We will focus mainly on it. > > The Great Depression was a period of about 10 years, 1929-1940, dominated by two recessions. The first of those recessions was of unparalleled depth, and that was what caused people to refer to it as a depression and as "The Great Depression." There is no general definition of a depression, however, and until recently the decline of 1929-1940 was the only decline refered to as a "depression." More... http://william-king.www.drexel.edu/top/prin/txt/probs/reces1.html / /// ZION LIST CHARTER: Please read it at /// /// http://www.zionsbest.com/charter.html /// / ==^ This email was sent to: archive@jab.org EASY UNSUBSCRIBE click here: http://topica.com/u/?aaP9AU.bWix1n Or send an email to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] T O P I C A -- Register now to manage your mail! http://www.topica.com/partner/tag02/register ==^
RE: [ZION] John Pratt performance art
Mark Gregson wrote: > > > I found Eric > > Samuelson's criticism a bit harsh, but this was probably to be expected > > as > > he knew little about it going in. I see his program as no more strange > > than > > for a backyard gathering of amateur astronomers--which is what John > > Pratt > > is. Here is an excerpt from what John Pratt says himself about the > > "Feast > > of Trumpets" program in an email message promoting it: > > > > > > There will be a symbolic and instructive program, based partly on > > authentic > > Hebrew traditions but mostly on my own interpretation, relating it to > > events of the restoration of the Gospel. > > Any way you slice it, the "program" was bizarre. Why the heck would > anyone want to present "information" in that style? (you can't use the > temple as a reason because it is real and authorized). > I think that Samuelson's gnostic reference is sadly pretty much bang on. I have read a lot of Samuelson's comments on AML over the years, although I haven't been there for some months now, maybe even a year or two, but he probably hasn't changed much. He's playwright and a lot more liberal minded than the typical ZION lister for sure (isn't everybody?) but he is a prof at BYU and he even writes some of the "spoken word" commentaries for the MTC broadcasts, so he does know better ;->. He can be an irreverant satirist at times. Maybe even most of the time. And he's perceptive. His remark about "Yo HO that I Were an Angel" was seen by me in that vein, as a comment on the possibility that the rather contrived first two notes of that song, sliding from oh up to OH, (is that a full fifth of an octave?) can be quite difficult to accomplish artfully and if you aren't careful you end up sounding like a pirate's Yo HO. He may have just spoiled the song for me forever, which is the ultimate compliment you can pay to a satirist. Actually he seemed to be pretty mild about Pratt's performance. Perhaps in deference to his Sister in Law or whoever it was in his family who seems to becoming a fellow travellor. But more than likely he just figured the thing spoke for itself. How do you satirize something that's already so far over the top? I have to confess that my mind was drawn to the wonderful Isaiah passage about "wizards who peep and mutter" as I read the review. "To the law and to the prophets" is where we should turn, as we are sternly reminded by Isaiah, not to people who claim the right to instruct us in things of God because of special insight. Interestingly Isaiah says of such people that there "no light in them." I understand that Pratt has been published in the Ensign and that tells me that he should know better too. If part of Pratt's ritual caused Samuelson to become uncomfortable about temple parody then it must have been amazingly inappropriate. Samuelson would not blush easily. The Isaiah reference can be found at 2 Nephi 18: 19-20 > I believe that all rational LDS would have warning alarms going off if > exposed to this "program". > My ears were ringing. And not with the sound of trumpets! Tom / /// ZION LIST CHARTER: Please read it at /// /// http://www.zionsbest.com/charter.html /// / ==^ This email was sent to: archive@jab.org EASY UNSUBSCRIBE click here: http://topica.com/u/?aaP9AU.bWix1n Or send an email to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] T O P I C A -- Register now to manage your mail! http://www.topica.com/partner/tag02/register ==^
Re: [ZION] War on Iraq
At 06:47 AM 9/27/02 -0400 Elmer L. Fairbank favored us with: >There is an Arab proverb that goes something like: The friend of my friend is my friend, the friend of my enemy is my enemy. An important point to remember in the coming years. This may be an Arab proverb, but it is also just common sense. --JWR Dan: Sometimes though you can talk to that friend of your enemy and find a solution that involves less bloodshed. Nevertheless never forget that they are your enemies friend. / /// ZION LIST CHARTER: Please read it at /// /// http://www.zionsbest.com/charter.html /// / ==^ This email was sent to: archive@jab.org EASY UNSUBSCRIBE click here: http://topica.com/u/?aaP9AU.bWix1n Or send an email to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] T O P I C A -- Register now to manage your mail! http://www.topica.com/partner/tag02/register ==^
RE: [ZION] War on Iraq
Dan: This would suggest then that we really can't rely on what we hear in the news to judge whether the war is right or wrong. Wouldn't you agree? Dan Allen: If this is _all_ that they have no, but do you _really_ believe that this it all of it? Most likely what we get is just the stuff that they control the least. ___ It would be important to note that at the very beginning of this exercise in terrorism, it was announced that one of the tools to be used would be disinformation. Was it General Patton who was responsible for giving the Germans a first-hand lesson in that during World War II? It is quite an effective tool, though frustrating for those who are trying to find the truth. Larry Jackson <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> GET INTERNET ACCESS FROM JUNO! Juno offers FREE or PREMIUM Internet access for less! Join Juno today! For your FREE software, visit: http://dl.www.juno.com/get/web/. / /// ZION LIST CHARTER: Please read it at /// /// http://www.zionsbest.com/charter.html /// / / /// ZION LIST CHARTER: Please read it at /// /// http://www.zionsbest.com/charter.html /// / ==^ This email was sent to: archive@jab.org EASY UNSUBSCRIBE click here: http://topica.com/u/?aaP9AU.bWix1n Or send an email to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] T O P I C A -- Register now to manage your mail! http://www.topica.com/partner/tag02/register ==^
Re: [ZION] Worldnet Daily, Newsmax
At 04:49 PM 9/26/02 -0700 Geoff Fowler favored us with: >One Internet site to try is http://www.kavkaz.org/eng . It reports >Caucasus and Afghanistan news items that definitely do not make it >into the US / North American press. Note the article "Woman in >Khost kills 2 Americans" - I wonder if it is true or if it will >ever be noted in any US publication? > >I cannot, however, vouch for any reliability. It seems to have a >pro-Muslim bias... John: I'm sure that there is a Muslim bias somewhere. Why doesn't it get reported better in the USA press? Perhaps our leaders and media don't want us to know what the enemy is giving as its reason for hating our guts. If the concept of "know your enemy" is important at all, I would think we would want to know why they are so mad at us even if the reasons are stupid and false. Curiously, no one is talking. I smell propaganda. I don't like propaganda. I makes me very insecure. Dan: But how can you get to know your enemy if all you see is his propaganda? The problem isn't that the English papers aren't willing to print what they find there, the problem is that they are not allowed to report anything that the regime doesn't want them to. An interesting place to pick up on what's really happening in the Mideast is Card's Ornery site. Several people over there seem to spend a lot of time focusing there. / /// ZION LIST CHARTER: Please read it at /// /// http://www.zionsbest.com/charter.html /// / ==^ This email was sent to: archive@jab.org EASY UNSUBSCRIBE click here: http://topica.com/u/?aaP9AU.bWix1n Or send an email to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] T O P I C A -- Register now to manage your mail! http://www.topica.com/partner/tag02/register ==^
Re: [ZION] War on Iraq
At 03:48 PM 9/26/02 -0700 Dan R Allen favored us with: >Dan: >I would have a problem with the global wording also, except that he also >said that this would be a _long_ war; John: In other words a war we have no intention of winning. Sounds like pretty tricky language to me. Dan: No, the intent is there, but the realization is that this is not going to be the kind of war that will make for great network ratings. This war is already being fought on multiple fronts: most of which are deemed too boring for the talking heads to even talk about. For example, they are still tracking the money trails. While everyone is focused on the mideast, there are troops in Indonesia working on terrorist cells there. This is not a war that will be won solely with guns; at some point the cause of the hatred will need to be addressed, but first we need to make sure that those who are capable of hitting us today are gone. It will be a long process, probably multi-generational since it is all based on irrational hatred that is taught from an early age. >with the immediate focus being on >those who were part of the 9/11 attacks. >Go back to WWII. Why did we focus the majority of our resources on Europe >when Japan attacked us first? Because it was believed that Hitler was a >more immediate serious threat than was Japan. Once we eliminate the >Al-queda network then we can pay more attention to the others. But since >Al-queda was behind the direct attacks, they get the majority of our >attention. John W. Redelfs[EMAIL PROTECTED] * "Trying is the first step toward failure." --Homer Simpson * "All my opinions are tentative pending further data." --JWR / /// ZION LIST CHARTER: Please read it at /// /// http://www.zionsbest.com/charter.html /// / / /// ZION LIST CHARTER: Please read it at /// /// http://www.zionsbest.com/charter.html /// / ==^ This email was sent to: archive@jab.org EASY UNSUBSCRIBE click here: http://topica.com/u/?aaP9AU.bWix1n Or send an email to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] T O P I C A -- Register now to manage your mail! http://www.topica.com/partner/tag02/register ==^
Re: [ZION] John Pratt performance art
> I found Eric > Samuelson's criticism a bit harsh, but this was probably to be expected as > he knew little about it going in. I see his program as no more strange than > for a backyard gathering of amateur astronomers--which is what John Pratt > is. Here is an excerpt from what John Pratt says himself about the "Feast > of Trumpets" program in an email message promoting it: > > > There will be a symbolic and instructive program, based partly on authentic > Hebrew traditions but mostly on my own interpretation, relating it to > events of the restoration of the Gospel. Any way you slice it, the "program" was bizarre. Why the heck would anyone want to present "information" in that style? (you can't use the temple as a reason because it is real and authorized). I believe that all rational LDS would have warning alarms going off if exposed to this "program". = Mark Gregson [EMAIL PROTECTED] = -- __ Download the FREE Opera browser at www.opera.com/download/ Free OperaMail at http://www.operamail.com/ Powered by Outblaze / /// ZION LIST CHARTER: Please read it at /// /// http://www.zionsbest.com/charter.html /// / ==^ This email was sent to: archive@jab.org EASY UNSUBSCRIBE click here: http://topica.com/u/?aaP9AU.bWix1n Or send an email to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] T O P I C A -- Register now to manage your mail! http://www.topica.com/partner/tag02/register ==^
Re: [ZION] War on Iraq
At 06:47 AM 9/27/02 -0400 Elmer L. Fairbank favored us with: >There is an Arab proverb that goes something like: The friend of my friend is my >friend, the friend of my enemy is my enemy. An important point to remember in >the coming years. This may be an Arab proverb, but it is also just common sense. --JWR / /// ZION LIST CHARTER: Please read it at /// /// http://www.zionsbest.com/charter.html /// / ==^ This email was sent to: archive@jab.org EASY UNSUBSCRIBE click here: http://topica.com/u/?aaP9AU.bWix1n Or send an email to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] T O P I C A -- Register now to manage your mail! http://www.topica.com/partner/tag02/register ==^
Re: [ZION] War on Iraq
At 14:13 9/26/2002 -0800, BLT wrote: >If this true, then Arabs rightly think that the USA is standing between >them and victory over Israel. That would make every anti-Israeli Arab an >anti-American. I don't think we can make a meaningful distinction between >anti-American terrorists and anti-Israeli terrorists. There is an Arab proverb that goes something like: The friend of my friend is my friend, the friend of my enemy is my enemy. An important point to remember in the coming years. Till / /// ZION LIST CHARTER: Please read it at /// /// http://www.zionsbest.com/charter.html /// / ==^ This email was sent to: archive@jab.org EASY UNSUBSCRIBE click here: http://topica.com/u/?aaP9AU.bWix1n Or send an email to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] T O P I C A -- Register now to manage your mail! http://www.topica.com/partner/tag02/register ==^
