[ZION] Repentance from adultery (was: RE: Is God's Love Unconditional?)
John W. Redelfs wrote: > > -Harold- > It's also true that there is a limited number of times one can > repent of adultery. -JWR- > I've heard this before, but I was challenged on it by the wife > of our mission president. I tried to prove the "three times and > you are out" rule, and I was unable to. Perhaps you can do > better than I can. --JWR I always thought it was "twice and you're out" -- that is, you can repent of adultery once, but not twice. I suppose this is based on D&C 42:25-26: "But he that has committed adultery and repents with all his heart, and forsaketh it, and doeth it no more, thou shalt forgive; But if he doeth it again, he shall not be forgiven, but shall be cast out." The reason for this is a bit fuzzier. As it was explained to me at the time, it has to do with repentence from covenant-breaking (which is scripturally known as adultery). The idea seems to be that one can forsake his covenants one time without truly understanding what he is doing, but that doing so again constitutes a denial of the Holy Ghost. I know of no exact scriptural justification for this idea of repentence, though. Just what I was told many years ago. Stephen // /// ZION LIST CHARTER: Please read it at /// /// http://www.zionsbest.com/charter.html /// / --^ This email was sent to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] EASY UNSUBSCRIBE click here: http://topica.com/u/?aaP9AU.bWix1n.YXJjaGl2 Or send an email to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] TOPICA - Start your own email discussion group. FREE! http://www.topica.com/partner/tag02/create/index2.html --^
Re: [ZION] Is God's Love Unconditional?
Harold Stuart wrote: It's also true that there is a limited number of times one can repent of adultery. Clearly the atonement is not a blank check to commit sin. I've heard this before, but I was challenged on it by the wife of our mission president. I tried to prove the "three times and you are out" rule, and I was unable to. Perhaps you can do better than I can. --JWR // /// ZION LIST CHARTER: Please read it at /// /// http://www.zionsbest.com/charter.html /// / --^ This email was sent to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] EASY UNSUBSCRIBE click here: http://topica.com/u/?aaP9AU.bWix1n.YXJjaGl2 Or send an email to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] TOPICA - Start your own email discussion group. FREE! http://www.topica.com/partner/tag02/create/index2.html --^
Re: [ZION] Is God's Love Unconditional?
On Nov 4, 2003, at 7:47 PM, George Cobabe wrote: Ron, You may be right. As a matter of fact I agree with you. However, Elder Nelson does not. He says that God's love is conditional upon righteousness. I think this is a difficult point. Certain aspects of God's love are without question unconditional. For example, everyone is resurrected, no matter how badly they flunk the test of mortality. It's also interesting that even those in the Telestial Kingdom receive some degree of glory. On the other hand, it is possible to get the Lord very angry with you. Martin Harris comes to mind, for example. He failed to keep his covenants, and it was a long time before the Lord forgave him. Martin lost many of the blessings he otherwise would have had had he properly maintained the 118 pages, but his repentance was sincere. He was then permitted to hear the voice of God and see an angel. It's also true that there is a limited number of times one can repent of adultery. Clearly the atonement is not a blank check to commit sin. Harold Stuart // /// ZION LIST CHARTER: Please read it at /// /// http://www.zionsbest.com/charter.html /// / --^ This email was sent to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] EASY UNSUBSCRIBE click here: http://topica.com/u/?aaP9AU.bWix1n.YXJjaGl2 Or send an email to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] TOPICA - Start your own email discussion group. FREE! http://www.topica.com/partner/tag02/create/index2.html --^
[ZION] A Question for George
The book GOSPEL PRINCIPLES is the correlated manual for the Gospel Essentials Sunday School class. Primarily, it elaborates upon and reinforces those things that new investigators were taught as "official Church doctrine" by our missionaries. I have a question for George: George, do you think there is any false doctrine in GOSPEL PRINCIPLES? If you do, I'd like to discuss the teachings that you disagree with. I personally believe every word in that book. It is fundamental, basic, foundational Mormon doctrine. Furthermore, it is "official." What do I mean by official? I mean it has passed the test of correlation by a committee that includes men I sustain every six months as "prophets, seers and revelators." I don't believe there is anything in that book that all 15 of our prophets fail to agree on. And while the General Conference of the Church has not voted upon GOSPEL PRINCIPLES, it has sustained 15 "prophets, seers and revelators" every six months. I believe it is a false statement that there is very little "official Church doctrine." The problem in this Church isn't that there is so little official doctrine, but that so few members know it very well, and so many of them believe a lot of other foolishness. Well, good doctrine drives out bad, and vice versa. We are not free to just believe whatever we want. Whatever we believe has to be in harmony with true, ie. correct doctrine. John W. Redelfs [EMAIL PROTECTED] === "The study of the doctrines of the Gospel will improve behavior quicker than a study of behavior will improve behavior." --Boyd K. Packer === All my opinions are tentative pending further data. --JWR // /// ZION LIST CHARTER: Please read it at /// /// http://www.zionsbest.com/charter.html /// / --^ This email was sent to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] EASY UNSUBSCRIBE click here: http://topica.com/u/?aaP9AU.bWix1n.YXJjaGl2 Or send an email to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] TOPICA - Start your own email discussion group. FREE! http://www.topica.com/partner/tag02/create/index2.html --^
Re: [ZION] The Cruelty of False Doctrine
What you say here is true, John. It is so easy to go further, as some do, and suggest that they are the ones that know thre real truth about so many other doctrines that you have not mentioned. And that is where the problem is often found. I do not think you are unwise, in fact I think that declaring the doctrine is one of my strengths as well as one of yours. It is just very easy to go too far. Some things are not clear and if you have two members disagreeing it does not mean that it is easy to determine which is right, if either of them is right, and which is wrong. So we need, in so many ways, to be careful. George - Original Message - From: "John W. Redelfs" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> To: <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> Sent: Tuesday, November 04, 2003 7:43 PM Subject: [ZION] The Cruelty of False Doctrine > George Cobabe wrote: > >In my opinion, there are many Latter-day Saints who do not understand how > >unloving and even cruel it is to teach false doctrine. > > > >John W. Redelfs [EMAIL PROTECTED] > > > > > >John, it is equally cruel to teach that the only true doctrine is the one > >and the way you understand it. > > I disagree. It is not equally true IF my understanding of doctrine is correct. > > >There are very few, I mean very few, beleifs that are truly doctine. > > I disagree again. There are MANY irrefutably true doctrines: > > 1) There is a God. > 2) Jesus Christ is his Son. > 3) Joseph Smith is a true prophet. > 4) The Book of Mormon is the Word of God. > 5) The Bible is the Word of God insofar as it is translated correctly. > 6) Jesus Christ is the Redeemer of the World. > 7) Gordon B. Hinckley is a true prophet just as Joseph Smith or Moses were. > 8) A man cannot be saved without faith in Christ, repentance and baptism. > 9) There are three kingdoms of glory. > 10) There is a universal resurrection. > 11) The Law of Tithing is God's Law. > 12) The Law of Chastity is God's Law. > > and so forth and so on. > > >Even many of the beliefs accepted by the majority of the members are not > >true. > > This is true, but it is also irrelevent. > > >It is unwise to set up a standard built on the understanding of anything > >but the reveleation of the truth, and much of that is not to be shared as > >absolute doctrine by the individual who has received it. > > I know that you think I am unwise George. Fortunately, I only need to > impress Heavenly Father with my wisdom. > > >Simply stating the belief or quoting someone else that also believes that > >way does not establish the truth of the doctrine. > > Of course. This is so obvious that I'm surprised that you would think it > needs saying. > > An understanding of true doctrine is ESSENTIAL to salvation. Without it, > no one would ever have faith in Christ or repent of his sins. And > salvation is impossible without faith and repentance. That is not just > personal opinion. That is the Law of God. > > > John W. Redelfs [EMAIL PROTECTED] > === > "The study of the doctrines of the Gospel will improve > behavior quicker than a study of behavior will improve > behavior." --Boyd K. Packer > === > All my opinions are tentative pending further data. --JWR > > // > /// ZION LIST CHARTER: Please read it at /// > /// http://www.zionsbest.com/charter.html /// > / > > > // /// ZION LIST CHARTER: Please read it at /// /// http://www.zionsbest.com/charter.html /// / --^ This email was sent to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] EASY UNSUBSCRIBE click here: http://topica.com/u/?aaP9AU.bWix1n.YXJjaGl2 Or send an email to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] TOPICA - Start your own email discussion group. FREE! http://www.topica.com/partner/tag02/create/index2.html --^
Re: [ZION] Is God's Love Unconditional?
Ron, You may be right. As a matter of fact I agree with you. However, Elder Nelson does not. He says that God's love is conditional upon righteousness. In conference yet George - Original Message - From: "Ron Scott" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> To: <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> Sent: Tuesday, November 04, 2003 7:32 PM Subject: RE: [ZION] Is God's Love Unconditional? > > > > -Original Message- > > From: John W. Redelfs [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] > > Sent: Tuesday, November 04, 2003 8:18 PM > > To: [EMAIL PROTECTED] > > Subject: RE: [ZION] Is God's Love Unconditional? > >SNIP< > > God's love is certainly unconditional in the sense that he loves all his > > children, probably even Lucifer. But his willingness and ability > > to bless > > those he loves is predicated upon their cooperation and > > obedience. He not > > only will not force any man to heaven, he cannot. > > > > Is God's love unconditional? Yes or no depending on what you mean by > > "unconditional."< > > > I may have posted too hastily and therefore didn't clarify well. Fact is, I > think we agree. But, this whole issue gets so bolluxed-up (witness the > confusing faith/works/grace piece in ths months Engisn) that I'll try one > more time to explain myself. > > God's love for us is unconditional. Because he loves, he is ever-ready to > go to bat for us. That is, he is ready to fogive us our errors when we are > ready to acknowledge them and repent. It follows that he can't begin to > bless us UNTIL we choose to be obedient, nor can be bestow more blessing on > us unless we consistently heed His counsel. > > God's unconditional love has absolutely nothing to the with the heretical > doctrine of "eat, drink, be merry and repent on your death" you wrote about > so colorfully. No doubt God, because He loves us unconditionally, can, and > probably does forgive someone who sincerely repents on his deathbed. But, > God can not begin to bestow blessing -- okay, call them rewards if you > insist -- until one has begun to live by His word. > > Finally, recall that Christ's unconditional love for us -- his grace -- > guarantees all of us eternal life. What kind of eternal life we are given > depends on His assessment of our faithfulness. > > I hope this is clearer than the earlier post. > > Ron > > // > /// ZION LIST CHARTER: Please read it at /// > /// http://www.zionsbest.com/charter.html /// > / > > > > // /// ZION LIST CHARTER: Please read it at /// /// http://www.zionsbest.com/charter.html /// / --^ This email was sent to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] EASY UNSUBSCRIBE click here: http://topica.com/u/?aaP9AU.bWix1n.YXJjaGl2 Or send an email to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] TOPICA - Start your own email discussion group. FREE! http://www.topica.com/partner/tag02/create/index2.html --^
Re: [ZION] Whom God hateth
Stephen Beecroft wrote: Still, God has seen fit to represent his feeling as hatred, so I don't think we have much business telling him he's wrong. In any case, I don't find God's hatred of the wicked to be a particularly ennobling concept, so I don't spend much time dwelling on it. Well, I will not dwell on it, but I certainly don't want God hating me. I'm one of those unusual souls who is motivated by fear as well as by love. And I am genuinely afraid of making God angry with me. I certainly wouldn't want him to hate me. --JWR // /// ZION LIST CHARTER: Please read it at /// /// http://www.zionsbest.com/charter.html /// / --^ This email was sent to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] EASY UNSUBSCRIBE click here: http://topica.com/u/?aaP9AU.bWix1n.YXJjaGl2 Or send an email to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] TOPICA - Start your own email discussion group. FREE! http://www.topica.com/partner/tag02/create/index2.html --^
[ZION] Official Church Doctrine #1
From GOSPEL PRINCIPLES: What Kind of Being Is God? Because we are made in his image (see Moses 6:9), we know that God has a body that looks like ours. His eternal spirit is housed in a tangible body of flesh and bones (see D&C 130:22). God's body, however, is perfected and glorified, with a glory beyond all description. God is perfect. He is a God of love, mercy, charity, truth, power, faith, knowledge, and judgment. He has all power. He knows all things. He is full of goodness. All good things come from God. Everything that he does is to help his children become like him---a god. He has said, "Behold, this is my work and my glory---to bring to pass the immortality and eternal life of man"(Moses 1:39). --- Anything controversial here? I don't think so. And yet we are the only Church upon the earth that teaches this most basic and fundamental truth about God, that he is an actual, physical being, as tangible as man is. How can anyone know anything about God that is correct if he doesn't understand the most basic fundamental truth about him? Religion may not be the same as mathematics, but one has to get the most basic fundamentals right if he want to understand anything else. Wouldn't you agree? John W. Redelfs [EMAIL PROTECTED] === "The study of the doctrines of the Gospel will improve behavior quicker than a study of behavior will improve behavior." --Boyd K. Packer === All my opinions are tentative pending further data. --JWR // /// ZION LIST CHARTER: Please read it at /// /// http://www.zionsbest.com/charter.html /// / --^ This email was sent to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] EASY UNSUBSCRIBE click here: http://topica.com/u/?aaP9AU.bWix1n.YXJjaGl2 Or send an email to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] TOPICA - Start your own email discussion group. FREE! http://www.topica.com/partner/tag02/create/index2.html --^
Re: [ZION] Conditional divine love
On Wed, 5 Nov 2003 01:24:17 + Stephen Beecroft <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> writes: For some reason, this topic generates a great deal of emotion in > people on both sides of the issue. I fail to understand why, even in > myself, such emotions arise. Because we ALL know that Father loves you more . val The best thing to hit the internet in years - Juno SpeedBand! Surf the web up to FIVE TIMES FASTER! Only $14.95/ month - visit www.juno.com to sign up today! // /// ZION LIST CHARTER: Please read it at /// /// http://www.zionsbest.com/charter.html /// / --^ This email was sent to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] EASY UNSUBSCRIBE click here: http://topica.com/u/?aaP9AU.bWix1n.YXJjaGl2 Or send an email to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] TOPICA - Start your own email discussion group. FREE! http://www.topica.com/partner/tag02/create/index2.html --^
Re: [ZION] Is God's Love Unconditional?
On Tue, 4 Nov 2003 21:32:33 -0500 Ron Scott <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> writes: > > -Original Message- > > From: John W. Redelfs [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] > > Sent: Tuesday, November 04, 2003 8:18 PM > > To: [EMAIL PROTECTED] > > Subject: RE: [ZION] Is God's Love Unconditional? > >SNIP< God's love is certainly unconditional in the sense that he loves >> all his children, probably even Lucifer. But his willingness and ability > > to bless those he loves is predicated upon their cooperation and > > obedience. He not only will not force any man to heaven, he cannot. > God's unconditional love has absolutely nothing to the with the > heretical doctrine of "eat, drink, be merry and repent on your death" you > wrote about so colorfully. No doubt God, because He loves us unconditionally, > can, and probably does forgive someone who sincerely repents on his deathbed. > But, God can not begin to bestow blessing -- okay, call them rewards if > you insist -- until one has begun to live by His word. And for some, they will not be able to live by His word until they have been dead many years. While we die who we are--good or bad--we still have a chance to repent during the growth period called the Spirit World. If it were not so, then why do vicarious baptisms and other ordinances? Would Christ have gone and gotten things organized for the deceased in the Spirit World before his resurrection? Brigham Young taught that all who die are allowed to progress--if they want. I think that death bed repentance, if sincere, WILL be accepted IF the person continues with that desire in the Spirit World. It goes back to the "what's in your heart" thing that the Lord already knows about you anyway. It is my understanding, however, that repentance and forgiveness are much, much harder to attain in the Spirit World, because we do not have our bodies to help us to overcome the natural man. So, while it is possible, it is very difficult. If a person was unwilling to change his entire life, then did a death-bed repentance, he very likely would get to the other side, think he had made heaven, and say "It worked!" Then he would continue on, being himself, bad as that may be. Of course, not until some spirit missionary teaches him properly will he understand the Spirit World. (and how difficult would it be for the imbibber to overcome his addiction without a body--he still has the desire and, dare I say, cravings, but cannot satisfy them!) I love what BY said about how glorious the Spirit World is, and about having been close enough to death that he had to really work hard at staying here. . ."that I have been near enough to understand eternity so that I have had to exercise a great deal more faith to desire to live than I ever exercised in my whole life to live. The brightness and glory of the next apartment is inexpressible." I think Joseph Smith expressed similar sentiments. my 2 cents val > > Finally, recall that Christ's unconditional love for us -- his grace > -- > guarantees all of us eternal life. What kind of eternal life we are > given > depends on His assessment of our faithfulness. > > I hope this is clearer than the earlier post. > > Ron > > / / > /// ZION LIST CHARTER: Please read it at /// > /// http://www.zionsbest.com/charter.html /// > / > > > > > .:*~*:._.:*~*:._.:*~*:._.:*~*:._.:*~*:._.:*~*:._.:*~*:._.:*~*:. «¤»¥«¤»§«¤»¥«¤»§«¤»¥«¤»§«¤»¥«¤»§«¤»¥«¤»§«¤»¥«¤ [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] // /// ZION LIST CHARTER: Please read it at /// /// http://www.zionsbest.com/charter.html /// / --^ This email was sent to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] EASY UNSUBSCRIBE click here: http://topica.com/u/?aaP9AU.bWix1n.YXJjaGl2 Or send an email to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] TOPICA - Start your own email discussion group. FREE! http://www.topica.com/partner/tag02/create/index2.html --^
Re: [ZION] Wish List
On Tue, 4 Nov 2003 13:04:15 -0500 Ron Scott <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> writes: > Dear Val: > > Thanks for asking, Val. I still have your booklet around here, in my > files. I'm glad the poems proved of use, of comfort to you. What happened > to your husband? After several "mini-strokes" that totally changed his personality, he died of a sudden heart attack. It's been an ugly situation. His family still treats us like dirt. Because of Tom's drastic personality change, they truly believed that he no longer believed in the Church. They were angry because I had him in his Temple whites, that the service was at the chapel, and that there was a talk on the Plan of Salvation and the sealing ordinances of the New and Everlasting Covenant! His daughter (an apostate, now) actually approached me at the funeral home and told me I'd better not mention church doctrine at the funeral. I shook my head and walked away. She actually called Tom's scriptures the "works of Satan." His son came over later and asked me about 'that sealing thing.' He asked if that means that they are all on the outside, or excluded because they are not members of the church and have not been sealed. I had to pause a moment before I told him that that pretty much summed it up. If he wanted to be sealed to his dad, he'd have to do what we have done. It's hard to explain it to non-members and I was already so distraught and stressed from the treatment I had been given, that I almost took pride in saying it (I know, bad thing, that pride). The most recent thing that happened is his youngest daughter vandalized my side of the headstone. I guess she figures if my name is not there, then we won't be together. While I have turned my cheek over and over with his family, I called my bishopric/home teacher-type for advice on how to handle it, and he said "Just because we're Mormons doesn't mean we have to let people walk all over us. Call the police and make a report" So I did. > > Yes, I'm still in Boston. Temple is built. I haven't been in it. > And, I don't know how long I'll be around on Zion: we seem ill-suited for > each other. I can not imagine why JWR asked me back. Perhaps he has Our BLT (beloved list tyrant) JWR is waxing a bit nostalgic for the way ZION used to be. Heck, someone tried to start a food fight awhile back, and it went nowhere!! We need some life, and I think he sees that in you. John loves a good discussion, even if he disagrees totally with you. > something perverse up his sleeve. Ya think? Thinking can be dangerous! val ;-) > > Best, > > Ron Scott > > > -Original Message- > > From: Valerie Nielsen Williams [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] > > Sent: Monday, November 03, 2003 5:23 PM > > To: [EMAIL PROTECTED] > > Subject: Re: [ZION] Wish List > > > > > > Heck, Ron. I was just thinking about you the other day. Are you > still > > writing poetry? I lost my husband last year, and I've been > cleaning > > things out ever since. I found some of the poems that you had > sent way > > back when. Re-reading them really struck a different chord with > me. > > They mean much more to me now than they did then. > > > > I think last time I heard from you, Boston saints and the church > were > > still fighting city hall about the temple and the height of the > spire. > > > > So, how have you been? > > > > val > > > > On Mon, 3 Nov 2003 23:55:29 + [EMAIL PROTECTED] writes: > > > Didn't know I was a foil. But, if I wasn't a kosher kind of guy > I > > > could > > > go for a BLT. What is a BLT, anyway? > > > > > > BTW, Elmer, my youngest is dancing the Nutcracker. > > > > > > Don't know why JWR recruited me, but I've never known an > invitation > > > I > > > didn't accept, especially from him. > > > > > > Ron Scott > > > Still in Boston > > > > > > > > > / > > / > > > /// ZION LIST CHARTER: Please read it at /// > > > /// http://www.zionsbest.com/charter.html /// > > > > > > / > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > .:*~*:._.:*~*:._.:*~*:._.:*~*:._.:*~*:._.:*~*:._.:*~*:._.:*~*:. > > «¤»¥«¤»§«¤»¥«¤»§«¤»¥«¤»§«¤»¥«¤»§«¤»¥«¤»§«¤»¥«¤ > > > > > > The best thing to hit the internet in years - Juno SpeedBand! > > Surf the web up to FIVE TIMES FASTER! > > Only $14.95/ month - visit www.juno.com to sign up today! > > > > > // > > > > /// ZION LIST CHARTER: Please read it at /// > > /// http://www.zionsbest.com/charter.html /// > > > // > > /// > > > > / / > /// ZION LIST CHARTER: Please read it at /// > /// http://www.zionsbest.com/charter.html
[ZION] Eternal Life vs. Immortality
Ron Scott wrote: Finally, recall that Christ's unconditional love for us -- his grace -- guarantees all of us eternal life. What kind of eternal life we are given depends on His assessment of our faithfulness. I hope this is clearer than the earlier post. It is clearer, Ron. I agree that we agree. However I have a nit to pick with your language in the above paragraph. "Eternal life" is only for those who marry in the temple and afterwards keep their covenants. Immortality, on the other hand, is what we are all guaranteed because of Christ's atonement. Eternal life is more than immortality. Immortality is merely rising from the dead to never die again. Eternal life is to live forever in an eternal family unit. Of course, you probably already knew that, but I didn't want anyone confused because we didn't define our terms. John W. Redelfs [EMAIL PROTECTED] === "The study of the doctrines of the Gospel will improve behavior quicker than a study of behavior will improve behavior." --Boyd K. Packer === All my opinions are tentative pending further data. --JWR // /// ZION LIST CHARTER: Please read it at /// /// http://www.zionsbest.com/charter.html /// / --^ This email was sent to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] EASY UNSUBSCRIBE click here: http://topica.com/u/?aaP9AU.bWix1n.YXJjaGl2 Or send an email to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] TOPICA - Start your own email discussion group. FREE! http://www.topica.com/partner/tag02/create/index2.html --^
[ZION] Whom God hateth
-JWR- > I went looking for some scriptural evidence that God ever hates > any of his children, and my cursory survey did not turn up > anything. Am I missing something? Surely God hates wickedness, > but does he hate the wicked? He hates sin, but does he hate > sinners? Perhaps you could point me to some scripture where > the object of God's hatred---and yes I do believe in a God who > hates---is a person rather than a concept or behavior. The one that came to mind was Helaman 15:4: "But behold my brethren, the Lamanites hath he [God] hated because their deeds have been evil continually, and this because of the iniquity of the tradition of their fathers". Malachi employs the same type of usage in Malachi 1:2-3 (cited in Romans 9:13): "I have loved you, saith the LORD. Yet ye say, Wherein hast thou loved us? Was not Esau Jacobs brother? saith the LORD: yet I loved Jacob, And I hated Esau, and laid his mountains and his heritage waste for the dragons of the wilderness." I also found a proverb (Proverbs 6:16) and two psalms (Psalm 5:5 and Psalm 11:5) that speak of the Lord hating the wicked. This last psalm is particularly interesting, because there is a Joseph Smith translation of it that reaffirms the Lord's hatred of the wicked and those who love violence: JST Psalm 11:5: "Behold his eyelids shall try the children of men, and he shall redeem the righteous, and they shall be tried. The Lord loveth the righteous, but the wicked, and him that loveth violence, his soul hateth." The context can be seen from reading the psalm from the beginning; Joseph retranslated verses 1-5, which can be read on page 800 in the JST section in the back of the LDS edition of the Bible. God's love is so far above our mortal idea of love, so much greater, deeper, and more encompassing, that even calling it "love" is but a faint echo of its reality. But we do the best we can with the tools (words, in this case) that we have. Similarly, God's hatred is far beyond our petty mortal ideas of hatred, so much stronger, deeper, and more powerful, that "hatred" probably does not begin to describe the Godly emotion being portrayed. Still, God has seen fit to represent his feeling as hatred, so I don't think we have much business telling him he's wrong. In any case, I don't find God's hatred of the wicked to be a particularly ennobling concept, so I don't spend much time dwelling on it. Stephen // /// ZION LIST CHARTER: Please read it at /// /// http://www.zionsbest.com/charter.html /// / --^ This email was sent to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] EASY UNSUBSCRIBE click here: http://topica.com/u/?aaP9AU.bWix1n.YXJjaGl2 Or send an email to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] TOPICA - Start your own email discussion group. FREE! http://www.topica.com/partner/tag02/create/index2.html --^
RE: [ZION] Is God's Love Unconditional?
> -Original Message- > From: John W. Redelfs [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] > Sent: Tuesday, November 04, 2003 9:29 PM > To: [EMAIL PROTECTED] > Subject: RE: [ZION] Is God's Love Unconditional? > > > Ron Scott wrote: > >There is a current piece in Ensign that confuses "unconditional love" and > >"blessing." Actually, I think the current piece confuses > grace/faith/works. > >God's love is unconditional, according to Hinckley (many > sources). But, the > >blessing/rewards are very conditional up faithfulness. > > Ron, I searched the Church website and found 115 hits on "unconditional > love" in General Conference, but they came from Maxwell, Ashton, Faust, > Ballard, Nelson himself, and others but not one came from President > Hinckley. Could you direct me to one of these "many sources" you speak > of? My survey doesn't really prove anything because it was > cursory. But I > would be interested in learning how President Hinckley thinks of > "unconditional love."<< I'll dig some stuff out tomorrow. But not tonight. But, I'd guess that Maxwell, Ashton and Ballard would have similar comments. At least, I hope they would. > > Actually, I think this discussion is a tempest in a teapot. > Nobody doubts > that God loves each of his children more and more perfectly than > any mortal > creature could, even more than a mother loves her newborn baby. I think > you may have hit the nail on the head when you suggested that it is God's > "blessings" that are conditional.<< Discussions like this are ALWAYS tempest in teapots. But, we do work out big time on the performance side of things, which is good, by and large. It is not so good when such exercises diminish the important role God love/charity/compassion plays in all of this. Worse, when one gets hung up on "performance stuff" one inevitably begins to measure one's own performance against another and pretty soon you have a bunch of "holier thans" parading their accomplishments, as opposed to recognizing that "It is by the grace we are saved, after all we can do." Those may not be the exact words, but they do illustrate to me (I realize others interpret this scripture differently) that no matter how hard we work, and no matter how good we are, none of us will make it without Christ's grace. > > However, it might be useful to think of God's love as conditional > inasmuch > as the blessings most definitely are, and Elder Nelson makes a good point > when he suggests that the phrase "unconditional love" might confuse some > people into supposing that they can have the blessings without the > repentance. And that simply is not true doctrine.< Well, see, the paragraph above underscores my point. There is a difference between "unconditional love" and "blessings." The former is freely given and is always available. The latter is contingent upon consistency and heeding His counsel. ANyway, I'm tired...and so til tomorrow. // /// ZION LIST CHARTER: Please read it at /// /// http://www.zionsbest.com/charter.html /// / --^ This email was sent to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] EASY UNSUBSCRIBE click here: http://topica.com/u/?aaP9AU.bWix1n.YXJjaGl2 Or send an email to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] TOPICA - Start your own email discussion group. FREE! http://www.topica.com/partner/tag02/create/index2.html --^
[ZION] The Cruelty of False Doctrine
George Cobabe wrote: In my opinion, there are many Latter-day Saints who do not understand how unloving and even cruel it is to teach false doctrine. John W. Redelfs [EMAIL PROTECTED] John, it is equally cruel to teach that the only true doctrine is the one and the way you understand it. I disagree. It is not equally true IF my understanding of doctrine is correct. There are very few, I mean very few, beleifs that are truly doctine. I disagree again. There are MANY irrefutably true doctrines: 1) There is a God. 2) Jesus Christ is his Son. 3) Joseph Smith is a true prophet. 4) The Book of Mormon is the Word of God. 5) The Bible is the Word of God insofar as it is translated correctly. 6) Jesus Christ is the Redeemer of the World. 7) Gordon B. Hinckley is a true prophet just as Joseph Smith or Moses were. 8) A man cannot be saved without faith in Christ, repentance and baptism. 9) There are three kingdoms of glory. 10) There is a universal resurrection. 11) The Law of Tithing is God's Law. 12) The Law of Chastity is God's Law. and so forth and so on. Even many of the beliefs accepted by the majority of the members are not true. This is true, but it is also irrelevent. It is unwise to set up a standard built on the understanding of anything but the reveleation of the truth, and much of that is not to be shared as absolute doctrine by the individual who has received it. I know that you think I am unwise George. Fortunately, I only need to impress Heavenly Father with my wisdom. Simply stating the belief or quoting someone else that also believes that way does not establish the truth of the doctrine. Of course. This is so obvious that I'm surprised that you would think it needs saying. An understanding of true doctrine is ESSENTIAL to salvation. Without it, no one would ever have faith in Christ or repent of his sins. And salvation is impossible without faith and repentance. That is not just personal opinion. That is the Law of God. John W. Redelfs [EMAIL PROTECTED] === "The study of the doctrines of the Gospel will improve behavior quicker than a study of behavior will improve behavior." --Boyd K. Packer === All my opinions are tentative pending further data. --JWR // /// ZION LIST CHARTER: Please read it at /// /// http://www.zionsbest.com/charter.html /// / --^ This email was sent to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] EASY UNSUBSCRIBE click here: http://topica.com/u/?aaP9AU.bWix1n.YXJjaGl2 Or send an email to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] TOPICA - Start your own email discussion group. FREE! http://www.topica.com/partner/tag02/create/index2.html --^
RE: [ZION] Is God's Love Unconditional?
Ron Scott wrote: There is a current piece in Ensign that confuses "unconditional love" and "blessing." Actually, I think the current piece confuses grace/faith/works. God's love is unconditional, according to Hinckley (many sources). But, the blessing/rewards are very conditional up faithfulness. Ron, I searched the Church website and found 115 hits on "unconditional love" in General Conference, but they came from Maxwell, Ashton, Faust, Ballard, Nelson himself, and others but not one came from President Hinckley. Could you direct me to one of these "many sources" you speak of? My survey doesn't really prove anything because it was cursory. But I would be interested in learning how President Hinckley thinks of "unconditional love." Actually, I think this discussion is a tempest in a teapot. Nobody doubts that God loves each of his children more and more perfectly than any mortal creature could, even more than a mother loves her newborn baby. I think you may have hit the nail on the head when you suggested that it is God's "blessings" that are conditional. However, it might be useful to think of God's love as conditional inasmuch as the blessings most definitely are, and Elder Nelson makes a good point when he suggests that the phrase "unconditional love" might confuse some people into supposing that they can have the blessings without the repentance. And that simply is not true doctrine. John W. Redelfs [EMAIL PROTECTED] === "The study of the doctrines of the Gospel will improve behavior quicker than a study of behavior will improve behavior." --Boyd K. Packer === All my opinions are tentative pending further data. --JWR // /// ZION LIST CHARTER: Please read it at /// /// http://www.zionsbest.com/charter.html /// / --^ This email was sent to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] EASY UNSUBSCRIBE click here: http://topica.com/u/?aaP9AU.bWix1n.YXJjaGl2 Or send an email to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] TOPICA - Start your own email discussion group. FREE! http://www.topica.com/partner/tag02/create/index2.html --^
RE: [ZION] Is God's Love Unconditional?
> -Original Message- > From: John W. Redelfs [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] > Sent: Tuesday, November 04, 2003 8:18 PM > To: [EMAIL PROTECTED] > Subject: RE: [ZION] Is God's Love Unconditional? >SNIP< > God's love is certainly unconditional in the sense that he loves all his > children, probably even Lucifer. But his willingness and ability > to bless > those he loves is predicated upon their cooperation and > obedience. He not > only will not force any man to heaven, he cannot. > > Is God's love unconditional? Yes or no depending on what you mean by > "unconditional."< I may have posted too hastily and therefore didn't clarify well. Fact is, I think we agree. But, this whole issue gets so bolluxed-up (witness the confusing faith/works/grace piece in ths months Engisn) that I'll try one more time to explain myself. God's love for us is unconditional. Because he loves, he is ever-ready to go to bat for us. That is, he is ready to fogive us our errors when we are ready to acknowledge them and repent. It follows that he can't begin to bless us UNTIL we choose to be obedient, nor can be bestow more blessing on us unless we consistently heed His counsel. God's unconditional love has absolutely nothing to the with the heretical doctrine of "eat, drink, be merry and repent on your death" you wrote about so colorfully. No doubt God, because He loves us unconditionally, can, and probably does forgive someone who sincerely repents on his deathbed. But, God can not begin to bestow blessing -- okay, call them rewards if you insist -- until one has begun to live by His word. Finally, recall that Christ's unconditional love for us -- his grace -- guarantees all of us eternal life. What kind of eternal life we are given depends on His assessment of our faithfulness. I hope this is clearer than the earlier post. Ron // /// ZION LIST CHARTER: Please read it at /// /// http://www.zionsbest.com/charter.html /// / --^ This email was sent to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] EASY UNSUBSCRIBE click here: http://topica.com/u/?aaP9AU.bWix1n.YXJjaGl2 Or send an email to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] TOPICA - Start your own email discussion group. FREE! http://www.topica.com/partner/tag02/create/index2.html --^
[ZION] Elder Nelson on Unconditional Love
Apparently Elder Nelson himself has spoken of God's "unconditional love" in General Conference. Heh, heh. I wonder if he was aware of that when he wrote his article for the February 2003 ENSIGN. "Godliness characterizes each of you who truly loves the Lord. You are constantly mindful of the Savior's atonement and rejoice in His unconditional love." (Nelson, Russell M. General Conference, October 1991) John W. Redelfs [EMAIL PROTECTED] === "The study of the doctrines of the Gospel will improve behavior quicker than a study of behavior will improve behavior." --Boyd K. Packer === All my opinions are tentative pending further data. --JWR // /// ZION LIST CHARTER: Please read it at /// /// http://www.zionsbest.com/charter.html /// / --^ This email was sent to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] EASY UNSUBSCRIBE click here: http://topica.com/u/?aaP9AU.bWix1n.YXJjaGl2 Or send an email to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] TOPICA - Start your own email discussion group. FREE! http://www.topica.com/partner/tag02/create/index2.html --^
Re: [ZION] Is God's Love Unconditional?
In my opinion, there are many Latter-day Saints who do not understand how unloving and even cruel it is to teach false doctrine. John W. Redelfs [EMAIL PROTECTED] John, it is equally cruel to teach that the only true doctrine is the one and the way you understand it. There are very few, I mean very few, beleifs that are truly doctine. Even many of the beliefs accepted by the majority of the members are not true. It is unwise to set up a standard built on the understanding of anything but the reveleation of the truth, and much of that is not to be shared as absolute doctrine by the individual who has received it. Simply stating the belief or quoting someone else that also believes that way does not establish the truth of the doctrine. George - Original Message - From: "John W. Redelfs" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> To: <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> Sent: Tuesday, November 04, 2003 5:02 PM Subject: [ZION] Is God's Love Unconditional? > In the February ENSIGN, Elder Russell M. Nelson of the Quorum of the Twelve > wrote an article in which he stated unequivocally that God's love is NOT > unconditional. It is divine, and it is infinite, but it is very much > conditional upon repentance and obedience to divine law. In the article, > Elder Nelson says: > > --- > Understanding that divine love and blessings are not truly unconditional > can defend us against common fallacies such as these: Since God's love is > unconditional, He will love me regardless...; or Since God is love, He will > love me unconditionally, regardless... > > These arguments are used by anti-Christs to woo people with deception. > Nehor, for example, promoted himself by teaching falsehoods: He testified > unto the people that all mankind should be saved at the last day, for the > Lord had created all men, and, in the end, all men should have eternal > life. Sadly, some of the people believed Nehor's fallacious and > unconditional concepts. > --- > > The whole article, explaining from the scriptures the highly conditional > quality of God's love may be read at > http://library.lds.org/nxt/gateway.dll/Magazines/Ensign/2003.htm/ensign%20february%202003.htm/divine%20love.htm?fn=document-frameset.htm$f=templates$3.0 > > Which leads me to ask another question? Is a loving parent strict or > permissive? And is Heavenly Father a strict or permissive > parent? Finally, how loving is it to teach false doctrine that will > certainly motivate some to procrastinate their repentance until it is too > late to repent? Or is it ever too late to repent? > > In my opinion, there are many Latter-day Saints who do not understand how > unloving and even cruel it is to teach false doctrine. > > John W. Redelfs [EMAIL PROTECTED] > === > "The study of the doctrines of the Gospel will improve > behavior quicker than a study of behavior will improve > behavior." --Boyd K. Packer > === > All my opinions are tentative pending further data. --JWR > > // > /// ZION LIST CHARTER: Please read it at /// > /// http://www.zionsbest.com/charter.html /// > / > > > // /// ZION LIST CHARTER: Please read it at /// /// http://www.zionsbest.com/charter.html /// / --^ This email was sent to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] EASY UNSUBSCRIBE click here: http://topica.com/u/?aaP9AU.bWix1n.YXJjaGl2 Or send an email to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] TOPICA - Start your own email discussion group. FREE! http://www.topica.com/partner/tag02/create/index2.html --^
Re: [ZION] Conditional divine love
Stephen Beecroft wrote: Then I suggest the scriptures also "mix up" these two concepts, because divine blessings are consistently represented as an indication of God's love, while divine cursings or divine deafness evidences God's disinclination toward or hatred of a people. As you no doubt already know, Stephen, I agree with you on the matter of whether or not God's love is "unconditional." However, I went looking for some scriptural evidence that God ever hates any of his children, and my cursory survey did not turn up anything. Am I missing something? Surely God hates wickedness, but does he hate the wicked? He hates sin, but does he hate sinners? Perhaps you could point me to some scripture where the object of God's hatred---and yes I do believe in a God who hates---is a person rather than a concept or behavior. John W. Redelfs [EMAIL PROTECTED] === "The study of the doctrines of the Gospel will improve behavior quicker than a study of behavior will improve behavior." --Boyd K. Packer === All my opinions are tentative pending further data. --JWR // /// ZION LIST CHARTER: Please read it at /// /// http://www.zionsbest.com/charter.html /// / --^ This email was sent to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] EASY UNSUBSCRIBE click here: http://topica.com/u/?aaP9AU.bWix1n.YXJjaGl2 Or send an email to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] TOPICA - Start your own email discussion group. FREE! http://www.topica.com/partner/tag02/create/index2.html --^
[ZION] Conditional divine love
-Ron- > God's love is unconditional, according to Hinckley (many sources). What are some of those sources? For some reason, this topic generates a great deal of emotion in people on both sides of the issue. I fail to understand why, even in myself, such emotions arise. The quality of God's love does not depend upon whether I understand it correctly or not. So what's at stake? Will the answer make God love me more or less? Clearly, the existence of reality does not depend on my perception of it. It seems to me that the scriptures are quite clear and consistent in teaching that God's love is indeed conditional. Nowhere in scripture do I find indication that God's love is "unconditional". Many places in scripture do I find indications that God's love is quite conditional. If this is a difficult doctrine for some to accept and understand, does that make it any less true or profound? Let us suppose for a moment that Ron's distinction is correct; that is, God's love for us is unconditional, but his blessings to us are not. What, then, constitutes "God's love" for us? Does it mean how fondly he thinks of us when we pray to him? How much his pulse rate increases when we grow or diminish? I can't think of any clear meaning for the phrase "God's love" in such a case. In fact, I submit that stating that "God's love" is "unconditional" makes the phrase itself meaningless. So God loves me just like he loves Jesus Christ and Satan, and he continues loving me in the exact same manner whether I strive toward exaltation or greedily fall into depravity? In that case, who cares about God's love? It's a constant, like gravity. We may be thankful for it in some academic or theoretical sense, but it has absolutely no applicability to us in everyday things. So if I believe God's love to be "unconditional", I must also believe it to be pretty much irrelevant to my life -- in which case, why would I care if someone states that God's love is conditional? Since it doesn't affect me anyway, what's the problem? > As I said, you getting the two concepts mixed up. You're making > synoymns of "unconditional love" and "divine blessings." Then I suggest the scriptures also "mix up" these two concepts, because divine blessings are consistently represented as an indication of God's love, while divine cursings or divine deafness evidences God's disinclination toward or hatred of a people. Stephen // /// ZION LIST CHARTER: Please read it at /// /// http://www.zionsbest.com/charter.html /// / --^ This email was sent to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] EASY UNSUBSCRIBE click here: http://topica.com/u/?aaP9AU.bWix1n.YXJjaGl2 Or send an email to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] TOPICA - Start your own email discussion group. FREE! http://www.topica.com/partner/tag02/create/index2.html --^
RE: [ZION] Is God's Love Unconditional?
Ron Scott wrote: As I said, you getting the two concepts mixed up. You're making synoymns of "unconditional love" and "divine blessings." So did Elder Nelson. You'd better careful who you're calling anti-Christ JWR for you're about to violate your own bylaws (grin) I don't believe that I have called anyone anti-Christ. Perhaps I have been misunderstood. I don't think that Elder Nelson calls anyone anti-Christ except Nehor in the Book of Mormon. And there he is on sound footing. --JWR // /// ZION LIST CHARTER: Please read it at /// /// http://www.zionsbest.com/charter.html /// / --^ This email was sent to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] EASY UNSUBSCRIBE click here: http://topica.com/u/?aaP9AU.bWix1n.YXJjaGl2 Or send an email to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] TOPICA - Start your own email discussion group. FREE! http://www.topica.com/partner/tag02/create/index2.html --^
RE: [ZION] Is God's Love Unconditional?
Ron Scott wrote: There is a current piece in Ensign that confuses "unconditional love" and "blessing." Actually, I think the current piece confuses grace/faith/works. God's love is unconditional, according to Hinckley (many sources). But, the blessing/rewards are very conditional up faithfulness. I would love to read one or two of these "many sources" you speak of. I know that President Hinckley is a very loving man, and that God loves sinners or he would not love me, nor would he have provided the unspeakable gift of his Only Begotten Son as a sacrifice for sin. Perhaps it would satisfy both sides in the discussion to say that God's love is unconditional, but the fruits of that love, such as eternal life, etc. are conditional. In other words, God loves even the Sons of Perdition, but it isn't going to do them much good because even his omnipotence cannot save them from Outer Darkness unless they repent and obey divine law. Rather than argue over terms like love vs. blessings or conditional vs. unconditional, I would rather just remember the true principle expressed in the Book of Mormon thusly: "Do not suppose, because it has been spoken concerning restoration, that ye shall be restored from sin to happiness. Behold, I say unto you, wickedness never was happiness." (Alma 41: 10) And "What, do ye suppose that mercy can rob justice? I say unto you, Nay; not one whit. If so, God would cease to be God." (Alma 42: 25) Actually, I think that people have a tendency to talk past each other when discussing this particular topic. Nobody would deny that a loving Father in Heaven blesses all those of his children that he able to. But he CANNOT bless those who, using their moral agency, place themselves beyond the infinite atonement of Jesus Christ by refusing to repent of their sins and obey divine law. BTW, I don't believe that President Hinckley disagrees with Elder Russell M. Nelson on this subject. I don't believe that President Hinckley has ever suggested that God's "unconditional" love will result in the same blessings for the unrepentant that he conditionally bestows upon the obedient. And unless I terribly misunderstood your post, I don't believe that you have suggested that he does. God's love is certainly unconditional in the sense that he loves all his children, probably even Lucifer. But his willingness and ability to bless those he loves is predicated upon their cooperation and obedience. He not only will not force any man to heaven, he cannot. Is God's love unconditional? Yes or no depending on what you mean by "unconditional." John W. Redelfs [EMAIL PROTECTED] === "While we cannot agree with others on certain matters, we must never be disagreeable. We must be friendly, soft-spoken, neighborly, and understanding." (President Gordon B. Hinckley, October 2003) === All my opinions are tentative pending further data. --JWR // /// ZION LIST CHARTER: Please read it at /// /// http://www.zionsbest.com/charter.html /// / --^ This email was sent to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] EASY UNSUBSCRIBE click here: http://topica.com/u/?aaP9AU.bWix1n.YXJjaGl2 Or send an email to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] TOPICA - Start your own email discussion group. FREE! http://www.topica.com/partner/tag02/create/index2.html --^
RE: [ZION] Is God's Love Unconditional?
> -Original Message- > From: John W. Redelfs [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] > Sent: Tuesday, November 04, 2003 7:03 PM > To: [EMAIL PROTECTED] > Subject: [ZION] Is God's Love Unconditional? > > > In the February ENSIGN, Elder Russell M. Nelson of the Quorum of > the Twelve > wrote an article in which he stated unequivocally that God's love is NOT > unconditional. It is divine, and it is infinite, but it is very much > conditional upon repentance and obedience to divine law. In the article, > Elder Nelson says: > > --- > Understanding that divine love and blessings are not truly unconditional > can defend us against common fallacies such as these: Since God's love is > unconditional, He will love me regardless...; or Since God is > love, He will > love me unconditionally, regardless...< There is a current piece in Ensign that confuses "unconditional love" and "blessing." Actually, I think the current piece confuses grace/faith/works. God's love is unconditional, according to Hinckley (many sources). But, the blessing/rewards are very conditional up faithfulness. > These arguments are used by anti-Christs to woo people with deception. > Nehor, for example, promoted himself by teaching falsehoods: He testified > unto the people that all mankind should be saved at the last day, for the > Lord had created all men, and, in the end, all men should have eternal > life. Sadly, some of the people believed Nehor's fallacious and > unconditional concepts.< As I said, you getting the two concepts mixed up. You're making synoymns of "unconditional love" and "divine blessings." So did Elder Nelson. You'd better careful who you're calling anti-Christ JWR for you're about to violate your own bylaws (grin): I think President Hinckley has, over the years, been quite clear that God has unconditional love for each of us. Which doesn't have a whole lot to do with how we're judged in the great-by-and-by in the sky. RBS > // /// ZION LIST CHARTER: Please read it at /// /// http://www.zionsbest.com/charter.html /// / --^ This email was sent to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] EASY UNSUBSCRIBE click here: http://topica.com/u/?aaP9AU.bWix1n.YXJjaGl2 Or send an email to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] TOPICA - Start your own email discussion group. FREE! http://www.topica.com/partner/tag02/create/index2.html --^
[ZION] Is God's Love Unconditional?
In the February ENSIGN, Elder Russell M. Nelson of the Quorum of the Twelve wrote an article in which he stated unequivocally that God's love is NOT unconditional. It is divine, and it is infinite, but it is very much conditional upon repentance and obedience to divine law. In the article, Elder Nelson says: --- Understanding that divine love and blessings are not truly unconditional can defend us against common fallacies such as these: Since God's love is unconditional, He will love me regardless...; or Since God is love, He will love me unconditionally, regardless... These arguments are used by anti-Christs to woo people with deception. Nehor, for example, promoted himself by teaching falsehoods: He testified unto the people that all mankind should be saved at the last day, for the Lord had created all men, and, in the end, all men should have eternal life. Sadly, some of the people believed Nehor's fallacious and unconditional concepts. --- The whole article, explaining from the scriptures the highly conditional quality of God's love may be read at http://library.lds.org/nxt/gateway.dll/Magazines/Ensign/2003.htm/ensign%20february%202003.htm/divine%20love.htm?fn=document-frameset.htm$f=templates$3.0 Which leads me to ask another question? Is a loving parent strict or permissive? And is Heavenly Father a strict or permissive parent? Finally, how loving is it to teach false doctrine that will certainly motivate some to procrastinate their repentance until it is too late to repent? Or is it ever too late to repent? In my opinion, there are many Latter-day Saints who do not understand how unloving and even cruel it is to teach false doctrine. John W. Redelfs [EMAIL PROTECTED] === "The study of the doctrines of the Gospel will improve behavior quicker than a study of behavior will improve behavior." --Boyd K. Packer === All my opinions are tentative pending further data. --JWR // /// ZION LIST CHARTER: Please read it at /// /// http://www.zionsbest.com/charter.html /// / --^ This email was sent to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] EASY UNSUBSCRIBE click here: http://topica.com/u/?aaP9AU.bWix1n.YXJjaGl2 Or send an email to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] TOPICA - Start your own email discussion group. FREE! http://www.topica.com/partner/tag02/create/index2.html --^
RE: [ZION] Is All Well in Zion?
Tom Matkin wrote: > > 25 Wo be unto him that crieth: All is well! > --- > > Now just exactly what do these verses mean? How do they apply to me? How > should I "liken" them unto myself? What exactly is the Lord warning us > against? Am I supposed to do something? What? Just off the top I'd say don't cry "All is well!" and don't be at ease. Thank you, Tom. I knew that I could count on you for some comforting words of wisdom. --JWR // /// ZION LIST CHARTER: Please read it at /// /// http://www.zionsbest.com/charter.html /// / --^ This email was sent to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] EASY UNSUBSCRIBE click here: http://topica.com/u/?aaP9AU.bWix1n.YXJjaGl2 Or send an email to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] TOPICA - Start your own email discussion group. FREE! http://www.topica.com/partner/tag02/create/index2.html --^
RE: [ZION] Is All Well in Zion?
> > 25 Wo be unto him that crieth: All is well! > --- > > Now just exactly what do these verses mean? How do they apply to me? How > should I "liken" them unto myself? What exactly is the Lord warning us > against? Am I supposed to do something? What? Just off the top I'd say don't cry "All is well!" and don't be at ease. Tom // /// ZION LIST CHARTER: Please read it at /// /// http://www.zionsbest.com/charter.html /// / --^ This email was sent to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] EASY UNSUBSCRIBE click here: http://topica.com/u/?aaP9AU.bWix1n.YXJjaGl2 Or send an email to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] TOPICA - Start your own email discussion group. FREE! http://www.topica.com/partner/tag02/create/index2.html --^
RE: [ZION] Welcome to the List, Ron
John: It was a tease, honest. I know I have to mind my Ps and Qs around you, because you know my stake president way too well -- The Desert Rat who couldn't stand the bone-chilling cold of New England, but inexplicably acclimated well to Alaska. Go figure. Ron P.S. Did I ever tell you that Bruce R. and family lived just down the street from my parents. One of his kids crushed my nose playing football. Devout old timers in my ward used to get worked up into a lather whenever he'd show-up for gospel doctrine or priesthood class (once or twice a year). Not all, not all by a long shot, agreed with everything that proceeded from his mouth...and the debates were lively, even contentious, and always enlightening. P.P.S. a BRM story, perhaps one I told here long ago, and I hope I get it right because I'm writing it from memory...and it's been a decade or so since I heard the story. Shortly after BRM died, his brother Oscar dropped by President Hinckley's office to inform him that Sister McConkie, Bruce's mother had finally passed away ( As I recall she died within a few weeks of Bruce's passing). Oscar said his mother knew it was her time. "When I went to visit her the other day she was out by the curb waiting, her bags packed," he reported. "I asked her what she was doing." She said, "I'm waiting for Bruce ... he's been gone long enough to have become a big shot over there too and get special permission to come back and get me like he promised he would. Apparently, President Hinckley's laughter could be heard up and down the halls of 47EST. Ron > -Original Message- > From: John W. Redelfs [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] > Sent: Tuesday, November 04, 2003 2:57 PM > To: [EMAIL PROTECTED] > Subject: [ZION] Welcome to the List, Ron > > > Ron Scott wrote: > >Yes, I'm still in Boston. Temple is built. I haven't been in it. And, I > >don't know how long I'll be around on Zion: we seem ill-suited for each > >other. I can not imagine why JWR asked me back. Perhaps he has > something > >perverse up his sleeve. Ya think? > > There is no mystery, Ron. The list has been pretty dead lately, and I > thought that you might liven things up a bit. You are not bashful about > posting, and some difference of opinion stimulates discussion. > > The truth is, I really miss Marc Schindler. He wasn't quite as > "right-wing" as some of us, and he was a major contributor on Zion for > years. I was hoping that you might help make up for some of the loss I > feel at his passing. > > Besides, I miss Day-One largely because it gave me a chance to rub > shoulders with you. I've always enjoyed your online company, and I was > hoping Mormon-L would be willing to share with Zion in this case. > > Anyway, rest assured that I didn't invite you here just to beat > up on you, > nor did I invite you here to drive off some of my best, long-term, online > friends. I just thought we might have some interesting > conversations. That is what these email lists are all about, the endless > bull session. Hallelujah. > > Welcome to the list, Ron. I'm really glad you are here. > > > John W. Redelfs [EMAIL PROTECTED] > === > "While we cannot agree with others on certain matters, we > must never be disagreeable. We must be friendly, > soft-spoken, neighborly, and understanding." (President > Gordon B. Hinckley, October 2003) > === > All my opinions are tentative pending further data. --JWR > > // > > /// ZION LIST CHARTER: Please read it at /// > /// http://www.zionsbest.com/charter.html /// > // > /// > > // /// ZION LIST CHARTER: Please read it at /// /// http://www.zionsbest.com/charter.html /// / --^ This email was sent to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] EASY UNSUBSCRIBE click here: http://topica.com/u/?aaP9AU.bWix1n.YXJjaGl2 Or send an email to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] TOPICA - Start your own email discussion group. FREE! http://www.topica.com/partner/tag02/create/index2.html --^
[ZION] Nice to Get Old
Well, there is one nice thing about getting old: auto insurance. I just bought some today, and I was impressed with how inexpensive it is compared with what it has been in years past. Of course, my teenaged son just moved out. That might be part of the reason. John W. Redelfs [EMAIL PROTECTED] === "There is no place in this work for those who believe only in the gospel of doom and gloom. The gospel is good news. It is a message of triumph." --Gordon B. Hinckley === All my opinions are tentative pending further data. --JWR // /// ZION LIST CHARTER: Please read it at /// /// http://www.zionsbest.com/charter.html /// / --^ This email was sent to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] EASY UNSUBSCRIBE click here: http://topica.com/u/?aaP9AU.bWix1n.YXJjaGl2 Or send an email to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] TOPICA - Start your own email discussion group. FREE! http://www.topica.com/partner/tag02/create/index2.html --^
[ZION] Welcome to the List, Ron
Ron Scott wrote: Yes, I'm still in Boston. Temple is built. I haven't been in it. And, I don't know how long I'll be around on Zion: we seem ill-suited for each other. I can not imagine why JWR asked me back. Perhaps he has something perverse up his sleeve. Ya think? There is no mystery, Ron. The list has been pretty dead lately, and I thought that you might liven things up a bit. You are not bashful about posting, and some difference of opinion stimulates discussion. The truth is, I really miss Marc Schindler. He wasn't quite as "right-wing" as some of us, and he was a major contributor on Zion for years. I was hoping that you might help make up for some of the loss I feel at his passing. Besides, I miss Day-One largely because it gave me a chance to rub shoulders with you. I've always enjoyed your online company, and I was hoping Mormon-L would be willing to share with Zion in this case. Anyway, rest assured that I didn't invite you here just to beat up on you, nor did I invite you here to drive off some of my best, long-term, online friends. I just thought we might have some interesting conversations. That is what these email lists are all about, the endless bull session. Hallelujah. Welcome to the list, Ron. I'm really glad you are here. John W. Redelfs [EMAIL PROTECTED] === "While we cannot agree with others on certain matters, we must never be disagreeable. We must be friendly, soft-spoken, neighborly, and understanding." (President Gordon B. Hinckley, October 2003) === All my opinions are tentative pending further data. --JWR // /// ZION LIST CHARTER: Please read it at /// /// http://www.zionsbest.com/charter.html /// / --^ This email was sent to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] EASY UNSUBSCRIBE click here: http://topica.com/u/?aaP9AU.bWix1n.YXJjaGl2 Or send an email to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] TOPICA - Start your own email discussion group. FREE! http://www.topica.com/partner/tag02/create/index2.html --^
RE: [ZION] Wish List
Dear Val: Thanks for asking, Val. I still have your booklet around here, in my files. I'm glad the poems proved of use, of comfort to you. What happened to your husband? Yes, I'm still in Boston. Temple is built. I haven't been in it. And, I don't know how long I'll be around on Zion: we seem ill-suited for each other. I can not imagine why JWR asked me back. Perhaps he has something perverse up his sleeve. Ya think? Best, Ron Scott > -Original Message- > From: Valerie Nielsen Williams [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] > Sent: Monday, November 03, 2003 5:23 PM > To: [EMAIL PROTECTED] > Subject: Re: [ZION] Wish List > > > Heck, Ron. I was just thinking about you the other day. Are you still > writing poetry? I lost my husband last year, and I've been cleaning > things out ever since. I found some of the poems that you had sent way > back when. Re-reading them really struck a different chord with me. > They mean much more to me now than they did then. > > I think last time I heard from you, Boston saints and the church were > still fighting city hall about the temple and the height of the spire. > > So, how have you been? > > val > > On Mon, 3 Nov 2003 23:55:29 + [EMAIL PROTECTED] writes: > > Didn't know I was a foil. But, if I wasn't a kosher kind of guy I > > could > > go for a BLT. What is a BLT, anyway? > > > > BTW, Elmer, my youngest is dancing the Nutcracker. > > > > Don't know why JWR recruited me, but I've never known an invitation > > I > > didn't accept, especially from him. > > > > Ron Scott > > Still in Boston > > > > > / > / > > /// ZION LIST CHARTER: Please read it at /// > > /// http://www.zionsbest.com/charter.html /// > > > / > > > > > > > > > > .:*~*:._.:*~*:._.:*~*:._.:*~*:._.:*~*:._.:*~*:._.:*~*:._.:*~*:. > «¤»¥«¤»§«¤»¥«¤»§«¤»¥«¤»§«¤»¥«¤»§«¤»¥«¤»§«¤»¥«¤ > > > The best thing to hit the internet in years - Juno SpeedBand! > Surf the web up to FIVE TIMES FASTER! > Only $14.95/ month - visit www.juno.com to sign up today! > > // > > /// ZION LIST CHARTER: Please read it at /// > /// http://www.zionsbest.com/charter.html /// > // > /// > // /// ZION LIST CHARTER: Please read it at /// /// http://www.zionsbest.com/charter.html /// / --^ This email was sent to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] EASY UNSUBSCRIBE click here: http://topica.com/u/?aaP9AU.bWix1n.YXJjaGl2 Or send an email to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] TOPICA - Start your own email discussion group. FREE! http://www.topica.com/partner/tag02/create/index2.html --^
RE: [ZION] Cognitive Dissonance
Ron Scott wrote: > Well, I guess I'll just have to love you into seeing what I see > about false > churches. > > Missing Elder McConkie, > John W. Redelfs Thank goodness for living prophets. You couldn't have said it any better, Ron. You are a good man. --JWR // /// ZION LIST CHARTER: Please read it at /// /// http://www.zionsbest.com/charter.html /// / --^ This email was sent to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] EASY UNSUBSCRIBE click here: http://topica.com/u/?aaP9AU.bWix1n.YXJjaGl2 Or send an email to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] TOPICA - Start your own email discussion group. FREE! http://www.topica.com/partner/tag02/create/index2.html --^
RE: [ZION] Cognitive Dissonance
> > Tom, I like the way you think. Although, all things considered, I'd like > to > think President Hinckley argues to be in the world, but not of it. Which > is > not a bad place to be if you can do it. > > Ron I agree with that, but I was obliquely referencing the exhortation in Moroni 10: 30 And again I would exhort you that ye would come unto Christ, and lay hold upon every good gift, and touch not the evil gift, nor the unclean thing. 31 And awake, and arise from the dust, O Jerusalem; yea, and put on thy beautiful garments, O daughter of Zion; and strengthen thy stakes and enlarge thy borders forever, that thou mayest no more be confounded, that the covenants of the Eternal Father which he hath made unto thee, O house of Israel, may be fulfilled. 32 Yea, come unto Christ, and be perfected in him, and deny yourselves of all ungodliness; and if ye shall deny yourselves of all ungodliness and love God with all your might, mind and strength, then is his grace sufficient for you, that by his grace ye may be perfect in Christ; and if by the grace of God ye are perfect in Christ, ye can in nowise deny the power of God. There is very real necessity for the covenant Saints of God to separate themselves from worldly things, if not the world, in a very real way. We can't touch the unclean things, and we know what they are, without trouble. Elder Quentin L. Cook touched on this in the last conference in his memorable address: Are You a Saint? He defined what I meant by being separate from the world. Here's a portion of that talk: Quote Mode On: The word saint in Greek denotes "set apart, separate, [and] holy." 4 If we are to be Saints in our day, we need to separate ourselves from evil conduct and destructive pursuits that are prevalent in the world. We are bombarded with visual images of violence and immorality. Inappropriate music and pornography are increasingly tolerated. The use of drugs and alcohol is rampant. There is less emphasis on honesty and character. Individual rights are demanded, but duties, responsibilities, and obligations are neglected. There has been a coarsening of dialogue and increased exposure to that which is base and vulgar. The adversary has been relentless in his efforts to undermine the plan of happiness. If we separate ourselves from this worldly conduct, we will have the Spirit in our lives and experience the joy of being worthy Latter-day Saints. As Saints, we also need to avoid the worship of worldly gods. President Hinckley has expressed the desire that "everyone might have some of the good things of life" but has cautioned, "It is the obsession with riches that cankers and destroys." 5 In 1630 John Winthrop set forth a vision for the new land (America) on behalf of his fellow passengers as he sailed on board the Arbella. It has become known as "The City upon a Hill" sermon. In the final paragraph, Winthrop references Deuteronomy 30 [Deut. 30] and warns against worshiping and serving other gods-particularly emphasizing "pleasures, and profits." 6 In the recent past President Kimball counseled that even homes, boats, credentials, titles, and other similar pursuits can be worshiped as idols when they entice us away from love and service to God. 7 The prophet Moroni, speaking of our day, warned about the love of money and substance and suggested that we would love them more than we "love the poor and the needy, the sick and the afflicted." 8 If we are to be worthy Saints, we should minister to others and adhere to the Savior's admonition to love God and our fellowmen. Separation from the evils of the world needs to be accompanied by holiness. A Saint loves the Savior and follows Him in holiness and devotion. 9 Evidence of this kind of holiness and devotion is exemplified by consecration and sacrifice. President Hinckley has taught, "Without sacrifice there is no true worship of God." 10 Sacrifice is the crowning test of the gospel. It means consecrating time, talents, energy, and earthly possessions to further the work of God. In Doctrine and Covenants 97, verse 8 [D&C 97:8], it concludes, "All . who . are willing to observe their covenants by sacrifice-yea, every sacrifice which I, the Lord, shall command-they are accepted of me." Saints who respond to the Savior's message will not be led astray by distracting and destructive pursuits and will be prepared to make appropriate sacrifices. The importance of sacrifice to those who want to be Saints is exemplified by the atoning sacrifice of the Savior, which is at the center of the gospel. 11 End of Quote: Tom // /// ZION LIST CHARTER: Please read it at /// /// http://www.zionsbest.com/charter.html /// / --^ This email was sent to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] EASY UNSUBSCRIBE click here: http://topica.com/u/
RE: [ZION] Cognitive Dissonance
> -Original Message- > From: John W. Redelfs [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] > Sent: Tuesday, November 04, 2003 12:03 PM > To: [EMAIL PROTECTED] > Subject: Re: [ZION] Cognitive Dissonance > > > Tom Matkin wrote: > >So what's the best way to influence a free agent. Love him. Remember my > >own mantra, whatever the question, the answer is love. I think > President > >Hinckley operates like that. > > Well, I guess I'll just have to love you into seeing what I see > about false > churches. > > Missing Elder McConkie, > John W. Redelfs Thank goodness for living prophets. // /// ZION LIST CHARTER: Please read it at /// /// http://www.zionsbest.com/charter.html /// / --^ This email was sent to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] EASY UNSUBSCRIBE click here: http://topica.com/u/?aaP9AU.bWix1n.YXJjaGl2 Or send an email to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] TOPICA - Start your own email discussion group. FREE! http://www.topica.com/partner/tag02/create/index2.html --^
RE: [ZION] Cognitive Dissonance
> -Original Message- > From: Tom Matkin [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] > Sent: Tuesday, November 04, 2003 8:39 AM > To: [EMAIL PROTECTED] > Subject: Re: [ZION] Cognitive Dissonance > > > > -> > > But the Book of Mormon is still the Word of God, right? --JWR > > Yes. And it tells us all about the sons of Mosiah doesn't it? How they > received > a great promise of safety from the Lord for their mission of love and > service and how > they enjoyed miraculous success among a lost and fallen people by being > kind and loving and offering something much better and sharper than > the sword of war and contention. > > The Lord warns us in the passages you quote not to settle for less, not to > adopt lesser creeds or accept for ourselves counterfeits to the > real truth. > He does it forcefully. But there is ample evidence that he loves everyone, > that he wants us to love an serve each other, regardless of our religion. > He is Father to us all and values everyone. Certainly the book of Mormon > asks us not to touch the unclean thing and come out from the world and > gather as a covenant people, but that does not change the fact > that all men > are brothers of the same spiritual father, and because of the > gift of agency > no one can be forced to accept the gospel in its fullness. So what's the > best way to influence a free agent. Love him. Remember my own mantra, > whatever the question, the answer is love. I think President Hinckley > operates like that. > > Tom Tom, I like the way you think. Although, all things considered, I'd like to think President Hinckley argues to be in the world, but not of it. Which is not a bad place to be if you can do it. Ron // /// ZION LIST CHARTER: Please read it at /// /// http://www.zionsbest.com/charter.html /// / --^ This email was sent to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] EASY UNSUBSCRIBE click here: http://topica.com/u/?aaP9AU.bWix1n.YXJjaGl2 Or send an email to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] TOPICA - Start your own email discussion group. FREE! http://www.topica.com/partner/tag02/create/index2.html --^
RE: [ZION] Cognitive Dissonance
> -Original Message- > From: Ronn! Blankenship [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] > Sent: Tuesday, November 04, 2003 6:32 AM > To: [EMAIL PROTECTED] > Subject: Re: [ZION] Cognitive Dissonance > > > At 04:19 AM 11/4/03 -0700, Tom Matkin wrote: > > >I wish I could say that this malopropism was intentional. But > I'm typing in > >the dark here at 4:00 a.m. and the spell checker kept telling me > to change > >Lamanites to laminates > > > > That's what happens when a Native American with Jewish ancestry > is working > at a plastics plant and falls in to one of the vats . . . you get a > laminated Lamanite . . . Trust Ronn! to finally make sense of what actually happened. // /// ZION LIST CHARTER: Please read it at /// /// http://www.zionsbest.com/charter.html /// / --^ This email was sent to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] EASY UNSUBSCRIBE click here: http://topica.com/u/?aaP9AU.bWix1n.YXJjaGl2 Or send an email to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] TOPICA - Start your own email discussion group. FREE! http://www.topica.com/partner/tag02/create/index2.html --^
RE: [ZION] Wish List
> -Original Message- > From: Steven Montgomery [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] > Sent: Tuesday, November 04, 2003 8:31 AM > To: [EMAIL PROTECTED] > Subject: RE: [ZION] Wish List > > > At 02:52 PM 11/3/2003, you wrote: > > > > > > Yes, I had heard. In fact, I resubbed to Zion a while ago to express > >my > > > condolences. I figured if we were making a "wish" list, though, I > >could > > > wish as I wished... > > > > > > Stephen > > > >Well, if that's how we are wishing > > > >I'll bet Oliver Cowdery would be an interesting guy on Zion, and how > >about Nephi? Sam would be a super lurker. > > > >And what about J. Golden Kimball? > > > >And I think Esther and Ruth would be good. > > > >Tom > > Or how about Porter Rockwell, the Pratt brothers, and Heber C. Kimball? Unless things here have changed dramatically, I'd say J. Golden and the Brothers Pratt would last about a week here before someone wanted them bounced. They were known to stir the pot. It was a genetic thing with them. Believe me I know. Ron // /// ZION LIST CHARTER: Please read it at /// /// http://www.zionsbest.com/charter.html /// / --^ This email was sent to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] EASY UNSUBSCRIBE click here: http://topica.com/u/?aaP9AU.bWix1n.YXJjaGl2 Or send an email to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] TOPICA - Start your own email discussion group. FREE! http://www.topica.com/partner/tag02/create/index2.html --^
Re: [ZION] Cognitive Dissonance
Tom Matkin wrote: So what's the best way to influence a free agent. Love him. Remember my own mantra, whatever the question, the answer is love. I think President Hinckley operates like that. Well, I guess I'll just have to love you into seeing what I see about false churches. Missing Elder McConkie, John W. Redelfs // /// ZION LIST CHARTER: Please read it at /// /// http://www.zionsbest.com/charter.html /// / --^ This email was sent to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] EASY UNSUBSCRIBE click here: http://topica.com/u/?aaP9AU.bWix1n.YXJjaGl2 Or send an email to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] TOPICA - Start your own email discussion group. FREE! http://www.topica.com/partner/tag02/create/index2.html --^
[ZION] Cognitive Dissonance
First off, we have to be careful not to assume, or read things into scripture. The scriptures you cite do not say that All churches are evil and corrupt. It states that there are some that are corrupt and seek to sway people away from goodness and Christ. Do all churches have false creeds and ideas? Yes. I'd even venture to state that we may have a few among the Mormons, if not on an official basis, then as a generally accepted basis. That doesn't mean the Church is fallen. It just means we do not have all truth yet. We have a fulness of truth, meaning we have enough to exalt us. There are many good churches out there, and we need to recognize truth and light wherever it is found. We also need to fight evil and wrong creeds, wherever they are found. We have this tendency to think that in the book of Mormon there was only the Church of Christ and the Church of the Devil. I submit that as the family grew into a nation, there may have been many churches, and those acceptable to Christ. The religion was not really centralized until Alma 2nd, with the common aspect of worshiping in the wilderness (a la Abraham, Isaac and Jacob) as a traditional past-time of the Nephites before this (and probably afterward, as well). Nephi would not have condemned different branches of the Church, per se. He would have condemned different branches that taught extremely wrong and evil creeds, leading people away from Christ. So, where modern religion leads people to Christ, it ought to be applauded. And where it leads them swiftly to hell, we should condemn it. You tend to view it from a Celestial Kingdom/Hell perspective, while others see things from a multiple heaven perspective, understanding that Terrestrial beings are honorable, as are their belief systems (Law of Moses, Christianity, Buddhism, Islam, etc). K'aya K'ama Gerald Smith [EMAIL PROTECTED] http://www.geocities.com/rameumptom/ Freedom Forever // /// ZION LIST CHARTER: Please read it at /// /// http://www.zionsbest.com/charter.html /// / --^ This email was sent to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] EASY UNSUBSCRIBE click here: http://topica.com/u/?aaP9AU.bWix1n.YXJjaGl2 Or send an email to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] TOPICA - Start your own email discussion group. FREE! http://www.topica.com/partner/tag02/create/index2.html --^
Re: [ZION] Cognitive Dissonance
-> > But the Book of Mormon is still the Word of God, right? --JWR Yes. And it tells us all about the sons of Mosiah doesn't it? How they received a great promise of safety from the Lord for their mission of love and service and how they enjoyed miraculous success among a lost and fallen people by being kind and loving and offering something much better and sharper than the sword of war and contention. The Lord warns us in the passages you quote not to settle for less, not to adopt lesser creeds or accept for ourselves counterfeits to the real truth. He does it forcefully. But there is ample evidence that he loves everyone, that he wants us to love an serve each other, regardless of our religion. He is Father to us all and values everyone. Certainly the book of Mormon asks us not to touch the unclean thing and come out from the world and gather as a covenant people, but that does not change the fact that all men are brothers of the same spiritual father, and because of the gift of agency no one can be forced to accept the gospel in its fullness. So what's the best way to influence a free agent. Love him. Remember my own mantra, whatever the question, the answer is love. I think President Hinckley operates like that. Tom // /// ZION LIST CHARTER: Please read it at /// /// http://www.zionsbest.com/charter.html /// / --^ This email was sent to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] EASY UNSUBSCRIBE click here: http://topica.com/u/?aaP9AU.bWix1n.YXJjaGl2 Or send an email to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] TOPICA - Start your own email discussion group. FREE! http://www.topica.com/partner/tag02/create/index2.html --^
RE: [ZION] Wish List
At 02:52 PM 11/3/2003, you wrote: > > Yes, I had heard. In fact, I resubbed to Zion a while ago to express my > condolences. I figured if we were making a "wish" list, though, I could > wish as I wished... > > Stephen Well, if that's how we are wishing I'll bet Oliver Cowdery would be an interesting guy on Zion, and how about Nephi? Sam would be a super lurker. And what about J. Golden Kimball? And I think Esther and Ruth would be good. Tom Or how about Porter Rockwell, the Pratt brothers, and Heber C. Kimball? -- Steven Montgomery [EMAIL PROTECTED] A popular government without popular information or the means of acquiring it, is but a prologue to a farce or a tragedy, or perhaps both. Knowledge will forever govern ignorance, and a people who mean to be their own governors must arm themselves with the power which knowledge gives. --John Adams // /// ZION LIST CHARTER: Please read it at /// /// http://www.zionsbest.com/charter.html /// / --^ This email was sent to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] EASY UNSUBSCRIBE click here: http://topica.com/u/?aaP9AU.bWix1n.YXJjaGl2 Or send an email to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] TOPICA - Start your own email discussion group. FREE! http://www.topica.com/partner/tag02/create/index2.html --^
Re: [ZION] Cognitive Dissonance
John-- I have to take exception to your comments, and need to ponder this passage of scripture a bit more, for neither fit my experience with my previous church. the Presbyterian Church did nothing but prepare me to accept the fullness of the Gospel when I heard it. maybe I was not diligent enough to merit being exposed to their opposition to the LDS Church? maybe too young to recognize lies and deceit when I heard it? or any number of other things, but the bottom line is that they lined me up to accept the fullness of the Gospel. what's wrong with that? Bob Taylor >Esperanza and I were reading the Book of Mormon this evening and I came >upon a chapter that just doesn't seem to harmonize with current list and >Church attitudes towards other churches. Aren't we supposed to "liken" the >scriptures unto ourselves? Sometimes it is pretty hard. > >--- >2 Nephi Chapter 28 >Many false churches shall be built up in the last days---They shall teach >false and vain and foolish doctrines---Apostasy shall abound because of >false teachers---The devil shall rage in the hearts of men---He shall teach >all manner of false doctrines. > >[...] > >3. For it shall come to pass in that day that the churches which are built >up, and not unto the Lord, when the one shall say unto the other: Behold, >I, I am the Lord's; and the others shall say: I, I am the Lord's' and thus >shall every one say that hath built up churches, and not unto the Lord--- > >[...] > >9. Yea, and there shall be many which shall teach after this manner, false >and vain and foolish doctrines, and shall be puffed up in their hearts, and >shall seek deep to hide their counsels from the Lord; and their works shall >be in the dark. > >10. And the blood of the saints shall cry from the ground against them. > >11. Yea, they have all gone out of the way; they have become corrupted. >--- > >I understood all of this when I left the Baptist Church. That is why I >became a Mormon. But today if I say anything like the Lord is saying in >this chapter of 2 Nephi, I get a big argument and someone invariably starts >talking about how these other churches prepare people for our missionaries. > >Well, I don't see it that way. These other churches are the whole reason >there was a Great Apostasy in the first place. These false churches are >the only reason there was any need for a Restoration. They don't prepare >others for membership in our Church, except possibly by setting a bad >example, one to be avoided by converting to Mormonism. They do the very >best they can to prepare their members to slam their doors in our faces >when our missionaries come knocking. > >Where have I gone wrong? Why can't I get all luvy-duvy towards these other >churches the way so many of my fellow saints are? Why does 2 Nephi 28 seem >so true to me and all the "go along to get along" talk that I hear among my >fellow saints sounds so much like a slick politician that wants everybody >to like him? I'm sick of hearing about how much truth there is in these >other churches. I want to hear someone call them what they are: false >churches. That is what the Book of Mormon calls them. > >Hate the sin and love the sinner. I understand that. But why do I have to >be accepting of a false church in order to be loving towards its deluded, >lied to, and oppressed members? > >I can love a Catholic without loving his church. The same goes for a >Lutheran, Methodist, Presbyterian, Baptist, Buddhist or Moslem. > >Reading 2 Nephi 28 and then reading these Internet email discussion lists, >Zion included, causes me considerable cognitive dissonance. > > >John W. Redelfs [EMAIL PROTECTED] >=== >"While we cannot agree with others on certain matters, we >must never be disagreeable. We must be friendly, >soft-spoken, neighborly, and understanding." (President >Gordon B. Hinckley, October 2003) >=== >All my opinions are tentative pending further data. --JWR > >// >/// ZION LIST CHARTER: Please read it at /// >/// http://www.zionsbest.com/charter.html /// >/ ** "There are no coincidences, only small miracles." Author Unknown ** // /// ZION LIST CHARTER: Please read it at /// /// http://www.zionsbest.com/charter.html /// / --^ This email was sent to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] EASY UNSUBSCRIBE click here: http://topica.com/u/?aaP9AU.bWix1n.YXJjaGl2 Or send an email to: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
RE: [ZION] About Marc
At 11:19 AM 11/3/2003, you wrote: -Steven- > I think highly of you too. Are you sure you don't want to > reconsider and be a part of ZION again? Steven, I'm flattered that you even remember me. My good friend John has asked that I return, as well. Guess he thought there wasn't enough bickering on the list... As you might be able to tell from my delayed response, I have very little time these days for online correspondence, but I will keep my Zion membership active and see if I can contribute occasionally. Thanks for the warm welcome. Stephen I'm glad you're back. I always enjoy your point of view and your tremendous ability to "wordsmith." Like you, my life has become very busy as well. I mostly now "lurk" with an occasional crumb, delectable morsel, and once in a blue moon a full course meal . -- Steven Montgomery [EMAIL PROTECTED] Who was Joseph Smith? The Book of Mormon tells us he was of the seed of Joseph that was sold into Egypt, and hence he was selected as Abraham was to fulfil a work upon the earth. God chose this young man. He was ignorant of letters as the world has it, but the most profoundly learned and intelligent man that I ever met in my life, and I have traveled hundreds of thousands of miles, been on different continents and mingled among all classes and creeds of people, yet I have never met a man so intelligent as he was. And where did he get his intelligence from? Not from books, not from the logic or science or philosophy of the day, but he obtained it through the revelation of God made known to him through the medium of the everlasting gospel.John Taylor // /// ZION LIST CHARTER: Please read it at /// /// http://www.zionsbest.com/charter.html /// / --^ This email was sent to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] EASY UNSUBSCRIBE click here: http://topica.com/u/?aaP9AU.bWix1n.YXJjaGl2 Or send an email to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] TOPICA - Start your own email discussion group. FREE! http://www.topica.com/partner/tag02/create/index2.html --^
Re: [ZION] Starts with G "Grateful"
Tom, you crack me up! And I thought false churches were a problem. Maybe the problem is all us monkeys here below. --JWR Tom Matkin wrote: Top ten reasons why I'm grateful not to be working in New Delhi 10.Those pesky monsoons. 9. Those pesky cows. 8. What those pesky cows leave behind. 7.One word. Curry. 6.Plodding elephants in the bus lane. 5.Plodding elephants in the commuter lane. 4.Plodding elephants in the bike paths. 3.Too far to travel to the Stake Centre. 2.I'm unaccustomed to the heat. And the NO. 1 reason I'm grateful not to work in New Delhi: One word. Monkeys! http://www.guardian.co.uk/worldlatest/story/0,1280,-3340136,00.html Tom [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] // /// ZION LIST CHARTER: Please read it at /// /// http://www.zionsbest.com/charter.html /// / // /// ZION LIST CHARTER: Please read it at /// /// http://www.zionsbest.com/charter.html /// / --^ This email was sent to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] EASY UNSUBSCRIBE click here: http://topica.com/u/?aaP9AU.bWix1n.YXJjaGl2 Or send an email to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] TOPICA - Start your own email discussion group. FREE! http://www.topica.com/partner/tag02/create/index2.html --^
Re: [ZION] Cognitive Dissonance
Tom Matkin wrote: Without digging into my scriptures for the exact quotes, consider the actions of the sons of Mosiah going to serve and live among the Lamanites in a spirit of love and sacrifice. Talk about cognitive dissidence. Do you think their friends, both the ones they had when they were apostate and the ones they gained when they repented, understood them? Everyone was used to fixing the Lamanite problem with war and these boys had a better idea. I think the current Church leadership has a better idea too. But the Book of Mormon is still the Word of God, right? --JWR // /// ZION LIST CHARTER: Please read it at /// /// http://www.zionsbest.com/charter.html /// / --^ This email was sent to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] EASY UNSUBSCRIBE click here: http://topica.com/u/?aaP9AU.bWix1n.YXJjaGl2 Or send an email to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] TOPICA - Start your own email discussion group. FREE! http://www.topica.com/partner/tag02/create/index2.html --^
Re: [ZION] Election Day
Don't forget to vote early and vote often. Till -- My absentee ballot was sent over a week ago. Unfortuately, I will have no real say in who becomes mayor of the fair city of Savannah. There will almost definitely be a run-off and Georgia law (or perhaps Chatham County, but probably Georgia) requires all absentee ballots to be in by the end of election day. Since the run-off will be held only two weeks after the general election, I doubt very seriously that Savannah will have its ballots ready to be mailed in time to get to me for me to get it back in time for the run-off. Or something like that. I don't particularly feel like going back to make sure my grammar matches up. Hope you guys know what I'm trying to say. Cousin Bill [EMAIL PROTECTED] "Our country, right or wrong. When right, to be kept right. When wrong, to be put right." -- Carl Schurz // /// ZION LIST CHARTER: Please read it at /// /// http://www.zionsbest.com/charter.html /// / --^ This email was sent to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] EASY UNSUBSCRIBE click here: http://topica.com/u/?aaP9AU.bWix1n.YXJjaGl2 Or send an email to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] TOPICA - Start your own email discussion group. FREE! http://www.topica.com/partner/tag02/create/index2.html --^
[ZION] Election Day
Don't forget to vote early and vote often. Till // /// ZION LIST CHARTER: Please read it at /// /// http://www.zionsbest.com/charter.html /// / --^ This email was sent to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] EASY UNSUBSCRIBE click here: http://topica.com/u/?aaP9AU.bWix1n.YXJjaGl2 Or send an email to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] TOPICA - Start your own email discussion group. FREE! http://www.topica.com/partner/tag02/create/index2.html --^
Re: [ZION] Cognitive Dissonance
At 04:19 AM 11/4/03 -0700, Tom Matkin wrote: I wish I could say that this malopropism was intentional. But I'm typing in the dark here at 4:00 a.m. and the spell checker kept telling me to change Lamanites to laminates That's what happens when a Native American with Jewish ancestry is working at a plastics plant and falls in to one of the vats . . . you get a laminated Lamanite . . . -- Ronn! :) // /// ZION LIST CHARTER: Please read it at /// /// http://www.zionsbest.com/charter.html /// / --^ This email was sent to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] EASY UNSUBSCRIBE click here: http://topica.com/u/?aaP9AU.bWix1n.YXJjaGl2 Or send an email to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] TOPICA - Start your own email discussion group. FREE! http://www.topica.com/partner/tag02/create/index2.html --^
RE: [ZION] Wish List
At 11:55 PM 11/3/2003 +, Ron wrote: Didn't know I was a foil. But, if I wasn't a kosher kind of guy I could go for a BLT. What is a BLT, anyway? BTW, Elmer, my youngest is dancing the Nutcracker. Don't know why JWR recruited me, but I've never known an invitation I didn't accept, especially from him. Well blow me over with a sneeze! I've wondered how you've been doing. Rebekah has finally retired from dancing with companies and is serving a mission in Sao Paulo Norte. Christopher is still dancing and is opening his own company in San Antonio this season. It's really good to hear from you. Till // /// ZION LIST CHARTER: Please read it at /// /// http://www.zionsbest.com/charter.html /// / --^ This email was sent to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] EASY UNSUBSCRIBE click here: http://topica.com/u/?aaP9AU.bWix1n.YXJjaGl2 Or send an email to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] TOPICA - Start your own email discussion group. FREE! http://www.topica.com/partner/tag02/create/index2.html --^
Re: [ZION] Cognitive Dissonance
Tom wrote: Talk about cognitive dissidence. Tom comments: I wish I could say that this malopropism was intentional. But I'm typing in the dark here at 4:00 a.m. and the spell checker kept telling me to change Lamanites to laminates and that's all I was thinking about at the time and this got by me. But it is appropriate in a discussion of the sons of Mosiah anyway. Tom // /// ZION LIST CHARTER: Please read it at /// /// http://www.zionsbest.com/charter.html /// / --^ This email was sent to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] EASY UNSUBSCRIBE click here: http://topica.com/u/?aaP9AU.bWix1n.YXJjaGl2 Or send an email to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] TOPICA - Start your own email discussion group. FREE! http://www.topica.com/partner/tag02/create/index2.html --^
[ZION] Starts with G "Grateful"
Top ten reasons why I'm grateful not to be working in New Delhi 10.Those pesky monsoons. 9. Those pesky cows. 8. What those pesky cows leave behind. 7.One word. Curry. 6.Plodding elephants in the bus lane. 5.Plodding elephants in the commuter lane. 4.Plodding elephants in the bike paths. 3.Too far to travel to the Stake Centre. 2.I'm unaccustomed to the heat. And the NO. 1 reason I'm grateful not to work in New Delhi: One word. Monkeys! http://www.guardian.co.uk/worldlatest/story/0,1280,-3340136,00.html Tom [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] // /// ZION LIST CHARTER: Please read it at /// /// http://www.zionsbest.com/charter.html /// / --^ This email was sent to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] EASY UNSUBSCRIBE click here: http://topica.com/u/?aaP9AU.bWix1n.YXJjaGl2 Or send an email to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] TOPICA - Start your own email discussion group. FREE! http://www.topica.com/partner/tag02/create/index2.html --^
Re: [ZION] Cognitive Dissonance
- Original Message - From: "John W. Redelfs" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> To: <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> Sent: Tuesday, November 04, 2003 12:39 AM Subject: [ZION] Cognitive Dissonance > Esperanza and I were reading the Book of Mormon this evening and I came > upon a chapter that just doesn't seem to harmonize with current list and > Church attitudes towards other churches. Aren't we supposed to "liken" the > scriptures unto ourselves? Sometimes it is pretty hard. > Without digging into my scriptures for the exact quotes, consider the actions of the sons of Mosiah going to serve and live among the Lamanites in a spirit of love and sacrifice. Talk about cognitive dissidence. Do you think their friends, both the ones they had when they were apostate and the ones they gained when they repented, understood them? Everyone was used to fixing the Lamanite problem with war and these boys had a better idea. I think the current Church leadership has a better idea too. Tom // /// ZION LIST CHARTER: Please read it at /// /// http://www.zionsbest.com/charter.html /// / --^ This email was sent to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] EASY UNSUBSCRIBE click here: http://topica.com/u/?aaP9AU.bWix1n.YXJjaGl2 Or send an email to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] TOPICA - Start your own email discussion group. FREE! http://www.topica.com/partner/tag02/create/index2.html --^
RE: [ZION] Cognitive Dissonance
JWR: --- Hate the sin and love the sinner. I understand that. But why do I have to be accepting of a false church in order to be loving towards its deluded, lied to, and oppressed members? I can love a Catholic without loving his church. The same goes for a Lutheran, Methodist, Presbyterian, Baptist, Buddhist or Moslem. Reading 2 Nephi 28 and then reading these Internet email discussion lists, Zion included, causes me considerable cognitive dissonance. --- Yes, I suppose the bottom line is that today we must make an extra effort to distinguish between the people who belong to other churches and the formal institutions that constitute those other churches. This is definitely more of a challenge than simply blasting everyone who differs from us. While we continue to unequivocally condemn false and vain and foolish doctrines, yet we recognize those people as our brothers and sisters, prospective converts to the true Gospel of Christ, potential Latter-day Saints. We don't seek to antagonize or alienate these potential members of the true Church by focusing primarily on their faults. I guess the thinking is that we can win the hearts of more men by gentleness, meekness, and love unfeigned. Perhaps, as the scriptures suggest, this has always been the right approach. Apparently the "sword of truth" can be a soft touch at appropriate times, in contrast to more heavy-handed "dividing asunder" kind of action. ;-) // /// ZION LIST CHARTER: Please read it at /// /// http://www.zionsbest.com/charter.html /// / --^ This email was sent to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] EASY UNSUBSCRIBE click here: http://topica.com/u/?aaP9AU.bWix1n.YXJjaGl2 Or send an email to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] TOPICA - Start your own email discussion group. FREE! http://www.topica.com/partner/tag02/create/index2.html --^
[ZION] Cognitive Dissonance
Esperanza and I were reading the Book of Mormon this evening and I came upon a chapter that just doesn't seem to harmonize with current list and Church attitudes towards other churches. Aren't we supposed to "liken" the scriptures unto ourselves? Sometimes it is pretty hard. --- 2 Nephi Chapter 28 Many false churches shall be built up in the last days---They shall teach false and vain and foolish doctrines---Apostasy shall abound because of false teachers---The devil shall rage in the hearts of men---He shall teach all manner of false doctrines. [...] 3. For it shall come to pass in that day that the churches which are built up, and not unto the Lord, when the one shall say unto the other: Behold, I, I am the Lord's; and the others shall say: I, I am the Lord's' and thus shall every one say that hath built up churches, and not unto the Lord--- [...] 9. Yea, and there shall be many which shall teach after this manner, false and vain and foolish doctrines, and shall be puffed up in their hearts, and shall seek deep to hide their counsels from the Lord; and their works shall be in the dark. 10. And the blood of the saints shall cry from the ground against them. 11. Yea, they have all gone out of the way; they have become corrupted. --- I understood all of this when I left the Baptist Church. That is why I became a Mormon. But today if I say anything like the Lord is saying in this chapter of 2 Nephi, I get a big argument and someone invariably starts talking about how these other churches prepare people for our missionaries. Well, I don't see it that way. These other churches are the whole reason there was a Great Apostasy in the first place. These false churches are the only reason there was any need for a Restoration. They don't prepare others for membership in our Church, except possibly by setting a bad example, one to be avoided by converting to Mormonism. They do the very best they can to prepare their members to slam their doors in our faces when our missionaries come knocking. Where have I gone wrong? Why can't I get all luvy-duvy towards these other churches the way so many of my fellow saints are? Why does 2 Nephi 28 seem so true to me and all the "go along to get along" talk that I hear among my fellow saints sounds so much like a slick politician that wants everybody to like him? I'm sick of hearing about how much truth there is in these other churches. I want to hear someone call them what they are: false churches. That is what the Book of Mormon calls them. Hate the sin and love the sinner. I understand that. But why do I have to be accepting of a false church in order to be loving towards its deluded, lied to, and oppressed members? I can love a Catholic without loving his church. The same goes for a Lutheran, Methodist, Presbyterian, Baptist, Buddhist or Moslem. Reading 2 Nephi 28 and then reading these Internet email discussion lists, Zion included, causes me considerable cognitive dissonance. John W. Redelfs [EMAIL PROTECTED] === "While we cannot agree with others on certain matters, we must never be disagreeable. We must be friendly, soft-spoken, neighborly, and understanding." (President Gordon B. Hinckley, October 2003) === All my opinions are tentative pending further data. --JWR // /// ZION LIST CHARTER: Please read it at /// /// http://www.zionsbest.com/charter.html /// / --^ This email was sent to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] EASY UNSUBSCRIBE click here: http://topica.com/u/?aaP9AU.bWix1n.YXJjaGl2 Or send an email to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] TOPICA - Start your own email discussion group. FREE! http://www.topica.com/partner/tag02/create/index2.html --^
[ZION] Is All Well in Zion?
A couple more verses from 2 Nephi 28 that cause me discomfort: 21 And others will he pacify, and lull them away into carnal security, that they will say: All is well in Zion; yea, Zion prospereth, all is well and thus the devil cheateth their souls, and leadeth them away carefully down to hell. [...] 24 Therefore, wo be unto him that is at ease in Zion! 25 Wo be unto him that crieth: All is well! --- Now just exactly what do these verses mean? How do they apply to me? How should I "liken" them unto myself? What exactly is the Lord warning us against? Am I supposed to do something? What? Any advice from one of the many here who are wiser than I am will be appreciated. John W. Redelfs [EMAIL PROTECTED] === "While we cannot agree with others on certain matters, we must never be disagreeable. We must be friendly, soft-spoken, neighborly, and understanding." (President Gordon B. Hinckley, October 2003) === All my opinions are tentative pending further data. --JWR // /// ZION LIST CHARTER: Please read it at /// /// http://www.zionsbest.com/charter.html /// / --^ This email was sent to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] EASY UNSUBSCRIBE click here: http://topica.com/u/?aaP9AU.bWix1n.YXJjaGl2 Or send an email to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] TOPICA - Start your own email discussion group. FREE! http://www.topica.com/partner/tag02/create/index2.html --^
