Re: [ZION] Marriage and the Constitution
Steven Montgomery wrote: If, as BYU Professor Richard Wilkins states, we need a Marriage Amendment because activist judges have misinterpreted the Constitution (See the URL immediately below), then why not simply limit their jurisdiction as outlined in Article III, Section 2? http://www.ldsmag.com/ideas/040323constitution.html Richard Wilkins may be convinced that we need a constitutional amendment, but I disagree. All we need to do is limit their jurisdiction. This is why the pro-family forces are doomed to failure. They can't even agree among themselves about what needs to be done. --JWR // /// ZION LIST CHARTER: Please read it at /// /// http://www.zionsbest.com/charter.html /// / --^ This email was sent to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] EASY UNSUBSCRIBE click here: http://topica.com/u/?aaP9AU.bWix1n.YXJjaGl2 Or send an email to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] For Topica's complete suite of email marketing solutions visit: http://www.topica.com/?p=TEXFOOTER --^
[ZION] Activist Judges
RB Scott wrote: I'm growing weary of the tiresome assumption that activist judge is a negative description. By definition any appellate judge worth his gavel is an activist judge because he is often asked to interpret constitutional law. I daresay that one man's activist judge is another's strict constitutionalist. I recommend the following: instead of tossing about meaningless catch phrases, spend more time explaining what you mean, demonstrating why a particular court's decision violates the spirit and intent of the U.S. Constitution. An activist judge is one that overturns precedent, common law, and common sense in his interpretation of the Constitution. In doing this he establishes precedent which is not the job of a judge. A judge is to judge, not create new law. --JWR // /// ZION LIST CHARTER: Please read it at /// /// http://www.zionsbest.com/charter.html /// / --^ This email was sent to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] EASY UNSUBSCRIBE click here: http://topica.com/u/?aaP9AU.bWix1n.YXJjaGl2 Or send an email to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] For Topica's complete suite of email marketing solutions visit: http://www.topica.com/?p=TEXFOOTER --^
RE: [ZION] Worth reiterating...
RB Scott wrote: I do not support extramarital sex of any kind. What about sex within marriage if marriage is redefined to permit a man to marry his German Shepherd or his boy friend? --JWR // /// ZION LIST CHARTER: Please read it at /// /// http://www.zionsbest.com/charter.html /// / --^ This email was sent to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] EASY UNSUBSCRIBE click here: http://topica.com/u/?aaP9AU.bWix1n.YXJjaGl2 Or send an email to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] For Topica's complete suite of email marketing solutions visit: http://www.topica.com/?p=TEXFOOTER --^
RE: [ZION] Marriage and the Constitution
RB Scott wrote: I agree, John. Notice that yesterday the proponents of the amendment expanded language of the proposed amendment to give states the right to adopt same sex union legislation and even Orrin Hatch was dithering. Where can I read about this? --JWR // /// ZION LIST CHARTER: Please read it at /// /// http://www.zionsbest.com/charter.html /// / --^ This email was sent to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] EASY UNSUBSCRIBE click here: http://topica.com/u/?aaP9AU.bWix1n.YXJjaGl2 Or send an email to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] For Topica's complete suite of email marketing solutions visit: http://www.topica.com/?p=TEXFOOTER --^
RE: [ZION] Worth reiterating...
RB Scott wrote: It would *seem* to you, perhaps. It doesn't *seem* so to me. I DO NOT support same sex marriage, but my methods for opposing it do not include (at this point) supporting a constitutional amendment defining **marriage.** Tell us more about your methods for opposing same-sex marriage. --JWR // /// ZION LIST CHARTER: Please read it at /// /// http://www.zionsbest.com/charter.html /// / --^ This email was sent to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] EASY UNSUBSCRIBE click here: http://topica.com/u/?aaP9AU.bWix1n.YXJjaGl2 Or send an email to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] For Topica's complete suite of email marketing solutions visit: http://www.topica.com/?p=TEXFOOTER --^
RE: [ZION] Worth reiterating...
RB Scott wrote: Tell us more about your methods for opposing same-sex marriage. --JWR I have done this before. I support the proposition that the state should get out of sanctioning marriages altogether and should, therefore ( as I noted in an earlier post today) draft legislation that carefully and consistently defines partnerships it will designate as bonafide domestic partnerships. Churches may choose (or not) to bless such partnerships as marriages. I also think considerable effort must be spent determining how such changes affect free speech in public settings and how they will be represented/taught in primary and secondary public schools. So do you really think this will oppose same-sex marriage? I don't see how it will stop them from becoming common place. --JWR // /// ZION LIST CHARTER: Please read it at /// /// http://www.zionsbest.com/charter.html /// / --^ This email was sent to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] EASY UNSUBSCRIBE click here: http://topica.com/u/?aaP9AU.bWix1n.YXJjaGl2 Or send an email to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] For Topica's complete suite of email marketing solutions visit: http://www.topica.com/?p=TEXFOOTER --^
[ZION] Scalia and Lawrence v. Texas
Does anyone know how I can find an online copy of Scalia's dissenting opinion in Lawrence v. Texas? I've Googled, and all I can find are news stories, not the actual dissenting opinion. --JWR // /// ZION LIST CHARTER: Please read it at /// /// http://www.zionsbest.com/charter.html /// / --^ This email was sent to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] EASY UNSUBSCRIBE click here: http://topica.com/u/?aaP9AU.bWix1n.YXJjaGl2 Or send an email to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] For Topica's complete suite of email marketing solutions visit: http://www.topica.com/?p=TEXFOOTER --^
Re: [ZION] Scalia and Lawrence v. Texas
John W. Redelfs wrote: Does anyone know how I can find an online copy of Scalia's dissenting opinion in Lawrence v. Texas? I've Googled, and all I can find are news stories, not the actual dissenting opinion. --JWR Nevermind. I found it. Sorry to bother you. --JWR // /// ZION LIST CHARTER: Please read it at /// /// http://www.zionsbest.com/charter.html /// / --^ This email was sent to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] EASY UNSUBSCRIBE click here: http://topica.com/u/?aaP9AU.bWix1n.YXJjaGl2 Or send an email to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] For Topica's complete suite of email marketing solutions visit: http://www.topica.com/?p=TEXFOOTER --^
[ZION] Spit It Out
RB Scott wrote: To reiterate: not once have I written that I favor gay marriage, yet you insist that I do. Not once have I written that I condone homosexual activities, yet you assert that I do. I think I see a possible source of misunderstanding here, Ron. Instead of saying, ...not once have a written that I favor gay marriage, yet you insist that I do, why not say, I am opposed to gay marriage, yet you insist that I am not? Instead of saying, Not once have I written that I condone homosexual activities, why not say, I don't condone homosexual activities? It seems to me that you typically talk around a topic instead of getting to the thesis sentence. Instead of taking a position and then defending it, you speak in hypotheticals and as a result you come across as evasive, and unwilling to be pinned down on your own position. It is probably just a difference in the way we communicate. But it leads to misunderstanding. Do you remember Gordon Banks? The man was brilliant in debate. His chief tactic was to never make a positive statement but to mercilessly attack the positive statements of others. In other words, he was all rebuttal with no statement. Also, he would usually write super short posts of one or two lines making it very difficult to shoot him down because he presented such a small target. I used to try to pin him down on his own feelings and opinions, but it was almost impossible. He was a master at answering questions with questions, and changing the subject to avoid saying anything that somebody could argue with. After all, his job was to shoot down the arguments of others, not vice versa. I finally got so frustrated trying to get him to take a stand, that I resorted to taking stands for him and attributing them to him. The tactic worked once in a while. If the words I put in his mouth were far enough off the mark, he would occasionally actually tell us what he really thought. But it annoyed him and was like pulling teeth for me. Have you ever noticed how the Democratic Party platform usually has a lot of ambiguous, self-contradictory rhetoric in it? Almost every assertion or statement is cancelled out by some other assertion or statement elsewhere in the document. If a writer is vague or ambiguous enough, it is almost impossible to prove him wrong because he hasn't really said anything. I think that a lot of us misunderstand your posts because you don't come right out and say what you mean. We end up assigning meanings, and invariably we get it wrong. For an example, you have repeatedly said that you believe that the law under the Constitution ought to guarantee equal rights. Well, duh. I have never met anyone who consciously felt that the law should discriminate and persecute various minorities. But what do you really mean when you say it? Does that mean that you think that homosexuals should be able to marry? Or does it mean that you think that people who oppose same sex marriage are Neanderthals trying to hijack the Constitution to pursue their own agenda? What? How can we talk around this for so long and still remain ignorant about where you stand? Maybe I'm wrong. Maybe you have been clear, and I'm just muddled in my understanding. But from where I sit, a lot of your discourse seems to talk around the topic without ever really stating your position. Maybe I'm just not smart enough to understand your otherwise lucent prose. John W. Redelfs [EMAIL PROTECTED] === I know of nothing in the history of the Church or in the history of the world to compare with our present circumstances. Nothing happened in Sodom and Gomorrah which exceeds the wickedness and depravity which surrounds us now. --President Boyd K. Packer, February 28, 2004 === All my opinions are tentative pending further data. --JWR // /// ZION LIST CHARTER: Please read it at /// /// http://www.zionsbest.com/charter.html /// / --^ This email was sent to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] EASY UNSUBSCRIBE click here: http://topica.com/u/?aaP9AU.bWix1n.YXJjaGl2 Or send an email to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] For Topica's complete suite of email marketing solutions visit: http://www.topica.com/?p=TEXFOOTER --^
Re: [ZION] Declare war on us, we'll love you for it
Hi, Jack Redelfs here, again. Gerald Smith wrote: Gary: Any group, whether a nation, community, business, or family has culture. And the way cultures interact, adapt, fight, etc, are all the same, regardless of the unit/organization. The only difference is the time span required for change to occur. BTW, I have a BS in Management and a MA in Teaching/History; so I am able to compare events from both business (organizational behavior) with nations (national behavior). Congratulations on your stellar education. I have no such qualifications, although I have been obsessed with history (having, for example, read Will Ariel Durant's _History Of Civilization_ series twice) for what seems a long time. Gary: Actually, there are two reasons. First, people have tried rising up against Saddam in the past. He has had many assassination attempts against him over the years. He's just been extremely successful in squashing the opposition. The nation of Iraq has never been free. Since it's inception in 1932, it has never had a democratic controlling principle. Instead, politicians, generals, and tribal leaders vie for power. Saddam's was not the first regime, merely the latest and the longest. Who are these politicians and generals? They are individuals, powerless without the complicity of subordinates. My grandfather in El Salvador, Juan Jose Merino, was a military careerist, a teacher who taught and loved the principles of freedom. In 1956, one of his pupils, Juan Maria Lemus, was fraudulently elected president. His rule was repressive and cruel. When my grandfather was offered a position of authority, he refused; rather than join a corrupt junta, Juan Jose gave up all he had and fell into a life of poverty. Blackballed, all those years of education and experience availed him naught, and his large family suffered. Why was Juan Jose's choice significant? Because America's soldiers have been making the same choice since our nation's advent. We have never had a military coup. This is a vital element of the American tradition. American warriors are Americans first, warriors second. Not so in Iraq and around the world. They're custom is essentially medieval: the strong dominate the weak. Every now and again the players change, that's all. This explains the dismal success rate of so-called freedom fighters.They do not fight for individual rights or democratic process, (though it may be their claim), they fight for the freedom of their faction to seize it's own share of power and riches. snip your argument that Saddam himself conditioned his people into sheepish submission The people learn in the culture to not speak out, or they will be tortured and killed. Indeed, this is part of their culture, but it is not new. You'll note that with a change of government, the people now feel free to speak out and protest, because the new culture is setting in, which tells them they aren't going to be tortured and killed for protesting the USA. Yes, they do speak out and protest. But were they in control, would they allow their own foes to do the same? I claimed that Japan was not truly free and Gary replied: Gary: I never said their [the Japanese] culture is exactly like ours. The democratic culture is still evolving. But it is evolving. The people vote. A major difference in cultures is that they tend to trust their government officials, while we in the USA are suspicious of government power. There are some cultural things that just won't change. Some cultural things are antithetical to freedom. So how can you cling to the notion that freedom will slowly but surely creep into all societies? Or swiftly, if we send in the troops? Are you familiar with the wide scope of police authority in Japan? With the charges of brutality, abuse of power, arrest and imprisonment without charge? While many of them [the Japanese] remember the Emperor with fondness, we remember King George putting the Stamp Act on us. Is this fondness good or bad for democracy? Is it a fondness that will fade away, or could it grow? Could an charismatic leader someday win the populace, with reminders of past grandeur and visions of greatness to come? Jack: Are you willing to occupy Iraq for 40-50 years, no matter the cost in lives and dollars? Because that's the only way I can see of achieving our goals. Even then, it would be impossible unless the Iraqis chose to change. Gary: What was the cost of rebuilding Europe and Japan after WWII? Back then, our people were glad to bear the burden and cost of nation building: Germany, Italy, Japan, etc. Where would the world be if we hadn't? WW2 was a long, cruel war. Civilians were killed indiscriminately, on both sides. By the end of it, Germany's male population had been virtually liquidated. The nation's very spirit had been crushed and demoralized. And even then, weren't we generous, ceding half of Germany to the clutches of the Soviets. But I'm not sure if I support the rebuilding of
RE: [ZION] Vote Now!
RB Scott wrote: I think you've got it right. The old laws are off the books. If they become laws again, they ought to be enforced. What do I think the penalty ought to be for Sabbath breaking? Dunno. Let me consult with my Jewish and SDA friends. Seriously, I don't recall Christ preaching death for any offense...well, murder perhaps (but I don't recall it). According to official Mormon doctrine, Jesus Christ is the premortal Jehovah. If that is the case, then we know that Jesus Christ preached death for quite a few offenses. --JWR // /// ZION LIST CHARTER: Please read it at /// /// http://www.zionsbest.com/charter.html /// / --^ This email was sent to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] EASY UNSUBSCRIBE click here: http://topica.com/u/?aaP9AU.bWix1n.YXJjaGl2 Or send an email to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] For Topica's complete suite of email marketing solutions visit: http://www.topica.com/?p=TEXFOOTER --^
RE: [ZION] Vote Now!
Hi Gary. My name's Jack, I'm the only son of the listowner. Since I advised him in writing the post you are responding to (I'm his history advisor), I was interested in your reply and decided to respond. Gerald Smith wrote: That's somewhat of a fallacious generalization, John. Yes, it is difficult and it takes time. But you know what, in business management terms, we see change as requiring time. snip business analogy This is interesting info, Gary, but I doubt that it applies to this discussion. Although business traditions are mercurial, cultural traditions tend to strengthen exponentially from generation to generation. The hand that rocks the cradle, etc. I find it highly doubtful that these traditions can be changed in a few years. Why didn't the Iraqis rise and destroy Saddam of their own accord? Because as a people, they were willing to resign themselves to his rule. They have been resigning themselves to autocrats for a long, long time. snip... Japan and South Korea are awesome democracies (non-English speaking) that have learned the values of freedom over a period of less than 50 years. We forced a democratic constitution upon Japan, literally at gunpoint, which they are already contemplating abandoning. Even now, the Japanese are happy to live with a degree of regimentation and control far beyond what we would find acceptable. Politics in Japan are not a populist exercise. Although they do vote, the Japanese people allow most of their politics to be decided behind closed doors. And I should add I'm basing this from mainstream sources, like Newsweek and U.S News World Report - not fringe publications like the New American. It might take Iraq 40-50 years to switch over to a strong democracy. So what? It means our grandchildren's children will live in a world with one more free nation that isn't run by radical kooks. Are you willing to occupy Iraq for 40-50 years, no matter the cost in lives and dollars? Because that's the only way I can see of achieving our goals. Even then, it would be impossible unless the Iraqis chose to change. Besides, are there _any_ Islamic nations that are not run by radical kooks? Was Saddam alone in persecuting the Kurds? Didn't the president of Maylasia recently release a diatribe against the vast Jewish conspiracy controlling the west? Did not Syria, Jordan and Egypt attempt to exterminate Israel only 31 years ago (supported by Saudi Arabia, I might add)? How does Saudi Arabia stand on human rights? How wide is suffrage in the Islamic world? Although it is true that Iraq may eventually switch over to a strong democracy, this will only result after a genuine, grassroots cultural shift. Such a shift has to come from within; our meddling can only hurt, not help such a process. A brief invasion will solve nothing. Cultures can change. It takes time. But I have a long term view of these things. I'm glad our forefathers also had such a long term vision, otherwise they might have given up at Valley Forge or when the Articles of Confederation failed. The heroes of the American Revolution were scions of a rich democratic tradition. The people of Iraq are inheritors of a factional, authoritarian tradition that we cannot hope to change by force. === It's not easy to juggle a pregnant wife and a troubled child, but somehow I managed to fit in eight hours of TV a day. - Homer Simpson // /// ZION LIST CHARTER: Please read it at /// /// http://www.zionsbest.com/charter.html /// / --^ This email was sent to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] EASY UNSUBSCRIBE click here: http://topica.com/u/?aaP9AU.bWix1n.YXJjaGl2 Or send an email to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] For Topica's complete suite of email marketing solutions visit: http://www.topica.com/?p=TEXFOOTER --^
RE: [ZION] Vote Now!
Gerald Smith wrote: It might take Iraq 40-50 years to switch over to a strong democracy. So what? It means our grandchildren's children will live in a world with one more free nation that isn't run by radical kooks. Hope springs eternal in the human breast, Man never is but always to be blest. // /// ZION LIST CHARTER: Please read it at /// /// http://www.zionsbest.com/charter.html /// / --^ This email was sent to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] EASY UNSUBSCRIBE click here: http://topica.com/u/?aaP9AU.bWix1n.YXJjaGl2 Or send an email to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] For Topica's complete suite of email marketing solutions visit: http://www.topica.com/?p=TEXFOOTER --^
[ZION] Vote Now!
Same-sex marriage will become legal in all or most of the United States over the next five years. A. Certainly B. Likely C. Maybe D. Unlikely E. Certainly not // /// ZION LIST CHARTER: Please read it at /// /// http://www.zionsbest.com/charter.html /// / --^ This email was sent to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] EASY UNSUBSCRIBE click here: http://topica.com/u/?aaP9AU.bWix1n.YXJjaGl2 Or send an email to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] For Topica's complete suite of email marketing solutions visit: http://www.topica.com/?p=TEXFOOTER --^
[ZION] Vote Now!
Mankind will establish permanent space colonies by the end of the century. A. Certainly B. Likely C. Maybe D. Unlikely E. Certainly not // /// ZION LIST CHARTER: Please read it at /// /// http://www.zionsbest.com/charter.html /// / --^ This email was sent to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] EASY UNSUBSCRIBE click here: http://topica.com/u/?aaP9AU.bWix1n.YXJjaGl2 Or send an email to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] For Topica's complete suite of email marketing solutions visit: http://www.topica.com/?p=TEXFOOTER --^
[ZION] Vote Now!
Gays and lesbians should stay in the closet. A. Strongly agree B. Agree C. Undecided D. Disagree E. Strongly Disagree // /// ZION LIST CHARTER: Please read it at /// /// http://www.zionsbest.com/charter.html /// / --^ This email was sent to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] EASY UNSUBSCRIBE click here: http://topica.com/u/?aaP9AU.bWix1n.YXJjaGl2 Or send an email to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] For Topica's complete suite of email marketing solutions visit: http://www.topica.com/?p=TEXFOOTER --^
RE: [ZION] Vote Now!
Tom Matkin wrote: The USA and her allies will successfully establish democratic rule in Iraq. A. Certainly B. Probably C. Maybe D. Unlikely E. Certainly not E. Certainly not. Democratic rule is a privilege that must be earned. The people of Iraq cannot have it given to them or established for them any more than I can give someone else my own character or discipline. All the USA can do is try to improve the circumstances for the growth of democracy. In most cases those interventions seem to about as successful as premature efforts interventions to help a chick hatch. I strongly agree with you, Tom. Freedom, and the western democratic traditions that establish and maintain freedom are a cultural phenomenon, not something that can be imposed from above. The roots of freedom in the west go back in the English speaking cultures to medieval Britain. That is why we have democracy in the USA, Canada, Australia, and a few other places. That is also why democracy is so tentative on the European continent, and almost nonexistent in non western nations. Democracy is a mind set that is engendered in families that understand and value fundamental, God-given human rights. Those families are almost all English speaking. John W. Redelfs [EMAIL PROTECTED] === I know of nothing in the history of the Church or in the history of the world to compare with our present circumstances. Nothing happened in Sodom and Gomorrah which exceeds the wickedness and depravity which surrounds us now. --President Boyd K. Packer, February 28, 2004 === All my opinions are tentative pending further data. --JWR // /// ZION LIST CHARTER: Please read it at /// /// http://www.zionsbest.com/charter.html /// / --^ This email was sent to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] EASY UNSUBSCRIBE click here: http://topica.com/u/?aaP9AU.bWix1n.YXJjaGl2 Or send an email to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] For Topica's complete suite of email marketing solutions visit: http://www.topica.com/?p=TEXFOOTER --^
[ZION] Musical Instruments Survey
How many of you play a musical instrument? How well do you play? I'm curious about the musical makeup of the Zion list. John W. Redelfs sings well, plays the piano fairly, and the violin poorly. // /// ZION LIST CHARTER: Please read it at /// /// http://www.zionsbest.com/charter.html /// / --^ This email was sent to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] EASY UNSUBSCRIBE click here: http://topica.com/u/?aaP9AU.bWix1n.YXJjaGl2 Or send an email to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] For Topica's complete suite of email marketing solutions visit: http://www.topica.com/?p=TEXFOOTER --^
RE: [ZION] General Conference Hopes
Gerald Smith wrote: I'm not discouraged. I see this as being part of the plan. God has already told us what would happen in the last days. So, why worry? Do your part, and know that Christ will come out victor in the end. That is where hope lies, in seeing beyond this earthly realm, and into the heavens beyond. If the whole earth turns homosexual, except for the Saints, so what? I understand the earth just before the Second Coming will be as it was in the days of Noah. And from my reading I've learned that the reason God had to drown the world is because the world had become so wicked there was no way for a person to raise up a righteous posterity. Noah, his wife, three sons, and three daughters-in-law were all that were saved. What about Noah's other children and grandchildren if he had any, his nieces and nephews, his siblings? The point I'm trying to make is that even if things are going according to God's plan, it is still right for us to worry about our children and grandchildren. What chance do they have to grow up straight and true in such a world? If the whole world turns homosexual it won't be except for the Saints. It will be many that are close to you, your grandchildren and great grandchildren. For me that is a painful thought and a good reason for family prayer, family scripture study, and Family Home Evening. And even then our own families will be in terrible danger. John W. Redelfs [EMAIL PROTECTED] === I know of nothing in the history of the Church or in the history of the world to compare with our present circumstances. Nothing happened in Sodom and Gomorrah which exceeds the wickedness and depravity which surrounds us now. --President Boyd K. Packer, February 28, 2004 === All my opinions are tentative pending further data. --JWR // /// ZION LIST CHARTER: Please read it at /// /// http://www.zionsbest.com/charter.html /// / --^ This email was sent to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] EASY UNSUBSCRIBE click here: http://topica.com/u/?aaP9AU.bWix1n.YXJjaGl2 Or send an email to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] For Topica's complete suite of email marketing solutions visit: http://www.topica.com/?p=TEXFOOTER --^
RE: [ZION] Gas pains
John A. English, n/OEF wrote: Dear Jim, Supply would be greater without the Iraq invasion, so prices would be lower. Supply/demand would force prices lower. It is also not the end of the world if we have to just do without cars. We existed before they were here, we will exist when they are gone. I wish there was a way to tax gasoline heavily enough to do away with income taxes and yet raise the same revenue. With gas at five dollars per gallon and up imagine how many people would actually figure in commuting costs when they take a job. Public transportation would come into its own. People would live nearer their work. They would find other ways to amuse themselves than by burning recreational gas. But most importantly, we could be energy independent. That would mean we wouldn't need to maintain a military presence all over the globe to protect our national ie. oil interests. John W. Redelfs [EMAIL PROTECTED] === I know of nothing in the history of the Church or in the history of the world to compare with our present circumstances. Nothing happened in Sodom and Gomorrah which exceeds the wickedness and depravity which surrounds us now. --President Boyd K. Packer, February 28, 2004 === All my opinions are tentative pending further data. --JWR // /// ZION LIST CHARTER: Please read it at /// /// http://www.zionsbest.com/charter.html /// / --^ This email was sent to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] EASY UNSUBSCRIBE click here: http://topica.com/u/?aaP9AU.bWix1n.YXJjaGl2 Or send an email to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] For Topica's complete suite of email marketing solutions visit: http://www.topica.com/?p=TEXFOOTER --^
[ZION] General Conference Hopes
General Conference is coming up in less than a month on April 3 and 4. I hope that President Hinckley will give us some additional guidance on the matter of same-sex marriages. Right now I am terribly discouraged. The advocates of same-sex marriage seem to have a plan and are all pulling together for what they want. The opponents of same-sex marriage, on the other hand, seem to be in a state a great confusion pulling in several different directions. I see no hope that the opponents of same-sex marriage will prevail when they cannot even agree on a common strategy. John W. Redelfs[EMAIL PROTECTED] = The traditional family is under heavy attack. I do not know that things were worse in the times of Sodom and Gomorrah. -- President Gordon B. Hinckley, 2004. = All my opinions are tentative pending further data. --JWR // /// ZION LIST CHARTER: Please read it at /// /// http://www.zionsbest.com/charter.html /// / --^ This email was sent to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] EASY UNSUBSCRIBE click here: http://topica.com/u/?aaP9AU.bWix1n.YXJjaGl2 Or send an email to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] For Topica's complete suite of email marketing solutions visit: http://www.topica.com/?p=TEXFOOTER --^
RE: [ZION] Gay Marriage Quicksand
Gerald Smith wrote: I'm all for it, IF we can get Congress to do it, and then not renege on it 10 years down the road under a liberal president. But how does this affect state courts who are legislating the same things from the bench? States would still be forced to draft amendments to their Constitutions, wouldn't they? You can all move to Alaska. We already have such an amendment in our Constitution. --JWR // /// ZION LIST CHARTER: Please read it at /// /// http://www.zionsbest.com/charter.html /// / --^ This email was sent to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] EASY UNSUBSCRIBE click here: http://topica.com/u/?aaP9AU.bWix1n.YXJjaGl2 Or send an email to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] For Topica's complete suite of email marketing solutions visit: http://www.topica.com/?p=TEXFOOTER --^
RE: [ZION] Gay marriage is wrong
RB Scott wrote: Then there are economic issues to be considered. For instance: suppose two good friends, both widowed mothers of minor children decided their chances for remarriage were nil. Yet, in the interest of keeping their families out the poorhouse, to eliminate the need to leave children unsupervised for long periods of time, etc., etc., etc. concluded that the solution was to form legal domestic partnership that provided all the health insurance and tax benefits that accrue to married couples. Money, a more stable family set-up, not sex, are the drivers. Would we argue that such women are not entitled to form such a union? And, if so, what would be the basis for our objections? Might precisely this kind of arrangement be one way society could help get single-parent families on more stable ground. Oh, come on. Who is doing that? Show me an example of someone who is doing that? Even if you can find one, it is an anomaly. Should we then change our marriage laws throughout the union to encourage this kind of arrangement just for a few freaky exceptions? --JWR // /// ZION LIST CHARTER: Please read it at /// /// http://www.zionsbest.com/charter.html /// / --^ This email was sent to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] EASY UNSUBSCRIBE click here: http://topica.com/u/?aaP9AU.bWix1n.YXJjaGl2 Or send an email to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] For Topica's complete suite of email marketing solutions visit: http://www.topica.com/?p=TEXFOOTER --^
RE: [ZION] Gay marriage is wrong
RB Scott wrote: Freaky? How would it be freaky for two old friends, both single parents, to decide to pool resources? Why would it be freaky for, say, two siblings, both single parents, to pool their resources, reduce/consolidate their overhead costs as it were? Such has been going on for years, albeit without the attendant tax benefits and fringe benefit advantages. What's wrong with extending equal benefits to such families? Does society have a responsibility to support all families...or just certain ones? Society has no responsibility to support any families. Families are to support themselves. If the government is going to encourage families, it ought to encourage the traditional family only. Otherwise it shouldn't encourage any families at all. When the government gets into the act by encouraging other kinds of families it weakens the traditional family by reinforcing the idea that the traditional family is not the ideal family. Actually, I think I'm coming more and more to agree with you that the government should just refrain from defining the family altogether. It is obviously going to do a poor job of it. John W. Redelfs[EMAIL PROTECTED] = The traditional family is under heavy attack. I do not know that things were worse in the times of Sodom and Gomorrah. -- President Gordon B. Hinckley, 2004. = All my opinions are tentative pending further data. --JWR // /// ZION LIST CHARTER: Please read it at /// /// http://www.zionsbest.com/charter.html /// / --^ This email was sent to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] EASY UNSUBSCRIBE click here: http://topica.com/u/?aaP9AU.bWix1n.YXJjaGl2 Or send an email to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] For Topica's complete suite of email marketing solutions visit: http://www.topica.com/?p=TEXFOOTER --^
RE: [ZION] Gay marriage is wrong
RB Scott wrote: Does society derive benefits from encouraging people to form more stable and more economically robust family units? The government says yes. So does the church. In the Proclamation on the Family the Church defines the family as a man and woman. I don't believe the Church has said anything about the economically robust family units that you refer to. --JWR // /// ZION LIST CHARTER: Please read it at /// /// http://www.zionsbest.com/charter.html /// / --^ This email was sent to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] EASY UNSUBSCRIBE click here: http://topica.com/u/?aaP9AU.bWix1n.YXJjaGl2 Or send an email to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] For Topica's complete suite of email marketing solutions visit: http://www.topica.com/?p=TEXFOOTER --^
RE: [ZION] Gay marriage is wrong
RB Scott wrote: Huh? It defines marriage as a institution between one man and one woman. The wording hasn't even been agreed upon yet. You are getting ahead of yourself. --JWR // /// ZION LIST CHARTER: Please read it at /// /// http://www.zionsbest.com/charter.html /// / --^ This email was sent to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] EASY UNSUBSCRIBE click here: http://topica.com/u/?aaP9AU.bWix1n.YXJjaGl2 Or send an email to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] For Topica's complete suite of email marketing solutions visit: http://www.topica.com/?p=TEXFOOTER --^
RE: [ZION] Help Me Please - Ignore as Usual
RB Scott wrote: You didn't describe your purpose. While your footnotes may support what you claim -- as I recall you provide a bibliography, not traditional footnotes -- it requires the reader to assume you've interpreted the source material correctly and that the source material supports what you say. I think it's wiser, more compelling, to provide a summary quote or two with an appropriate footnote. Just like they do in TIME Magazine, Jonathan. LOL --JWR // /// ZION LIST CHARTER: Please read it at /// /// http://www.zionsbest.com/charter.html /// / --^ This email was sent to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] EASY UNSUBSCRIBE click here: http://topica.com/u/?aaP9AU.bWix1n.YXJjaGl2 Or send an email to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] For Topica's complete suite of email marketing solutions visit: http://www.topica.com/?p=TEXFOOTER --^
RE: [ZION] Gay marriage is wrong
RB Scott wrote: Some of us regard marriage as a religious blessing, a religious covenant. Some us, therefore, think the government has no business getting itself involved in a religious matter -- like determining what constitutes a marriage. If marriage is only a religious blessing, a religious covenant, why has the Church invested so heavily in the argument over same-sex marriage? What is the Church's reasoning? I assume you may have some insight into this because of your special contacts in the hierarchy. Two final thoughts: I would imagine it's not lost on you that the proposed Constitutional Amendment defines marriage as a union between one man and one woman. It is true that many of those talking about a federal marriage amendment are talking about one man and one woman, but to the best of my knowledge the wording of the amendment has not yet been settled. It may be that it will be worded a man and a woman which could leave the door open to plural marriage. I trust it's also not lost on you that, should the amendment pass, it will, in essence, confirm the illegality of the marriages of several of my ancestors. It will render people like me descendants of illegitimate relationships, the offspring of bastard children. I don't see how a law passed in the 21st century could have any effect on your 19th century ancestors. Laws aren't retroactive. Where will the Church be should, at some point down the road, the Lord order that polygamy be reinstituted? I realize this is unlikely...but there is a darned important principle in play here, one that too many of us are ignoring. I personally believe that plural marriage will be reinstituted. But I don't think that possibility should be used to surrender in the fight to define marriage as only between a man and a woman. Perhaps we will lose the fight. Perhaps the fight will cause the dissolution of the Union, and Zion will arise as a sovereign nation in the west with its own laws. Whatever happens there is a clear right and wrong in the current debate. And we ought to choose the right regardless of what may become necessary in some yet unforeseen future. Laws that are passed can be repealed. Even amendments can be repealed as circumstances change. John W. Redelfs[EMAIL PROTECTED] = The traditional family is under heavy attack. I do not know that things were worse in the times of Sodom and Gomorrah. -- President Gordon B. Hinckley, 2004. = All my opinions are tentative pending further data. --JWR // /// ZION LIST CHARTER: Please read it at /// /// http://www.zionsbest.com/charter.html /// / --^ This email was sent to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] EASY UNSUBSCRIBE click here: http://topica.com/u/?aaP9AU.bWix1n.YXJjaGl2 Or send an email to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] TOPICA - Start your own email discussion group. FREE! http://www.topica.com/partner/tag02/create/index2.html --^
RE: [ZION] Farrell, Hatch and Redelfs
RB Scott wrote: My guess is that it won't be approved by Congress. The danger in a drawn out, bitter campaign that ultimately loses is that it will absorb so much political and financial captial there won't be much left over to shape how (or if) same sex marriage is presented in the schools. A destructive to the winner goes the spoils mentality could rule the process. Just an additional argument for home schooling. --JWR // /// ZION LIST CHARTER: Please read it at /// /// http://www.zionsbest.com/charter.html /// / --^ This email was sent to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] EASY UNSUBSCRIBE click here: http://topica.com/u/?aaP9AU.bWix1n.YXJjaGl2 Or send an email to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] TOPICA - Start your own email discussion group. FREE! http://www.topica.com/partner/tag02/create/index2.html --^
[ZION] Trial by Media
What cracks me up, and would make me laugh if it weren't so pathetic, is the way people suppose they know whether someone is guilty or innocent because of the media coverage of a high profile trial. Consider the Martha Stewart trial, for instance. She was found guilty of all four counts given to the jury. The jury saw all the evidence in court and unanimously found her guilty even though each juror had passed the veto of the defense during jury selection. Yet a CNN poll on the website showed that only about 60 percent of the website visitors thought she should have been convicted. Another 40 percent thought she should have been acquitted. On what basis? They weren't on the jury. They didn't see the evidence or hear the witnesses. All they have to go on is media coverage. What is the point of having a trial if guilt or innocence can be determined without one, without hearing the evidence or both sides of the story? The mob mentality, driven by the media, would be laughable if it weren't so sad. John W. Redelfs[EMAIL PROTECTED] = The traditional family is under heavy attack. I do not know that things were worse in the times of Sodom and Gomorrah. -- President Gordon B. Hinckley, 2004. = All my opinions are tentative pending further data. --JWR // /// ZION LIST CHARTER: Please read it at /// /// http://www.zionsbest.com/charter.html /// / --^ This email was sent to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] EASY UNSUBSCRIBE click here: http://topica.com/u/?aaP9AU.bWix1n.YXJjaGl2 Or send an email to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] TOPICA - Start your own email discussion group. FREE! http://www.topica.com/partner/tag02/create/index2.html --^
[ZION] Martha Stewart Guilty
Martha Stewart is guilty on all counts. // /// ZION LIST CHARTER: Please read it at /// /// http://www.zionsbest.com/charter.html /// / --^ This email was sent to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] EASY UNSUBSCRIBE click here: http://topica.com/u/?aaP9AU.bWix1n.YXJjaGl2 Or send an email to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] TOPICA - Start your own email discussion group. FREE! http://www.topica.com/partner/tag02/create/index2.html --^
Re: [ZION] Hatch's Proposal
Steven Montgomery wrote: Take a look at Orrin Hatch's proposal for an amendment. Tell me what you think: http://www.nationalreview.com/nr_comment/editors200403040830.asp I think that Hatch's proposal, if it became an amendment, would create a nation in which same-sex marriage was permitted in some states, and not permitted in others. This would override the current provisions in the US Constitution that requires states to recognize the legal documents of other states. It didn't work when we had slave states and free states. I don't think it would work if we had traditional marriage states and gay marriage states. But... I may be wrong. It may be that Musgrave amendment is not passable in its current form. If so, then the Hatch idea is better than the current situation. John W. Redelfs[EMAIL PROTECTED] = The traditional family is under heavy attack. I do not know that things were worse in the times of Sodom and Gomorrah. -- President Gordon B. Hinckley, 2004. = All my opinions are tentative pending further data. --JWR // /// ZION LIST CHARTER: Please read it at /// /// http://www.zionsbest.com/charter.html /// / --^ This email was sent to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] EASY UNSUBSCRIBE click here: http://topica.com/u/?aaP9AU.bWix1n.YXJjaGl2 Or send an email to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] TOPICA - Start your own email discussion group. FREE! http://www.topica.com/partner/tag02/create/index2.html --^
Re: [ZION] 34 U.S. Senators would nix Marriage Amendment
Steven Montgomery wrote: According to Newsmax and unnamed published reports, at least 34 U.S. Senators would vote no on the Marriage Amendment: http://www.newsmax.com/archives/ic/2004/3/5/95800.shtml What stand a better chance is to limit the jurisdiction of Federal Courts--something that only takes a simple majority, rather than a 2/3 majority of both House and Senate and then 3/4 of the States. I continue to feel that we should do both: pass a federal marriage amendment if we can, and pass legislation limiting the jurisdiction of the Federal Courts. I don't think we should assume up front that an amendment is politically impossible. And we should remember that what can be done with a simple majority can be undone with a simple majority. If an amendment would be harder to pass, it would also be much harder to repeal. John W. Redelfs[EMAIL PROTECTED] = The traditional family is under heavy attack. I do not know that things were worse in the times of Sodom and Gomorrah. -- President Gordon B. Hinckley, 2004. = All my opinions are tentative pending further data. --JWR // /// ZION LIST CHARTER: Please read it at /// /// http://www.zionsbest.com/charter.html /// / --^ This email was sent to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] EASY UNSUBSCRIBE click here: http://topica.com/u/?aaP9AU.bWix1n.YXJjaGl2 Or send an email to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] TOPICA - Start your own email discussion group. FREE! http://www.topica.com/partner/tag02/create/index2.html --^
[ZION] Third Party Candidates
If President Bush actively promotes a federal marriage amendment, then I will vote for him in November. Otherwise, I will vote for a third party candidate. However, I know nothing about the various third party candidates. Does anyone here have information that might be valuable to me? Who is running on the American Party ticket? The Constitution Party? The Libertarian Party? John W. Redelfs[EMAIL PROTECTED] = The traditional family is under heavy attack. I do not know that things were worse in the times of Sodom and Gomorrah. -- President Gordon B. Hinckley, 2004. = All my opinions are tentative pending further data. --JWR // /// ZION LIST CHARTER: Please read it at /// /// http://www.zionsbest.com/charter.html /// / --^ This email was sent to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] EASY UNSUBSCRIBE click here: http://topica.com/u/?aaP9AU.bWix1n.YXJjaGl2 Or send an email to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] TOPICA - Start your own email discussion group. FREE! http://www.topica.com/partner/tag02/create/index2.html --^
[ZION] Federal Marriage Amendment
http://thomas.loc.gov/cgi-bin/query/z?c108:H.J.RES.56: Congresswoman Marilyn Musgrave, R-Colo., has introduced the Federal Marriage Amendment (H.J. Res. 56) as a proposed constitutional amendment, which will remove the definition of marriage from the reach of all legislatures and courts permanently. Text: SECTION 1. Marriage in the United States shall consist only of the union of a man and a woman. Neither this Constitution or the constitution of any State, nor state or federal law, shall be construed to require that marital status or the legal incidents thereof be conferred upon unmarried couples or groups. --- Question: Is this the amendment, introduced in May of 2003, that President Bush is asking Congress to send out to the states? Or is there some other federal marriage amendment with different wording that is being promoted? John W. Redelfs[EMAIL PROTECTED] = The traditional family is under heavy attack. I do not know that things were worse in the times of Sodom and Gomorrah. -- President Gordon B. Hinckley, 2004. = All my opinions are tentative pending further data. --JWR // /// ZION LIST CHARTER: Please read it at /// /// http://www.zionsbest.com/charter.html /// / --^ This email was sent to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] EASY UNSUBSCRIBE click here: http://topica.com/u/?aaP9AU.bWix1n.YXJjaGl2 Or send an email to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] TOPICA - Start your own email discussion group. FREE! http://www.topica.com/partner/tag02/create/index2.html --^
RE: [ZION] Orson Scott Card on Iraq
Gerald Smith wrote: How about to defend an ally (Kuwait)? Also, how about to defend our oil interests? Those are two very important reasons to go into Iraq the first time, as well as the second time. Kuwait was not an ally. It was a client state that western oil money set up in the first place. And we have plenty of oil here at home for our legitimate needs. What would the economy of the USA been like over the past 10 years if Saddam had control of the oil fields in Kuwait and Saudi Arabia? He would have jacked the price up, forcing us into $3/gallon a decade ago. As it is, most of us grouse at paying above $1.50/gal right now. It would have stifled our economy, and enriched someone known to slaughter his enemies (foreign and domestic) WITH WMDs, and also spends money on many terrorist groups. $3/gallon is better than being dependent on imported oil. The only reason we are dependent on middle east oil is because we have become addicted to the cheap oil. I think we were well within reason to defend and ally and also our national security in both efforts. I guess we just have different priorities. I don't think it is OK to kill people to enjoy a little bit better standard of living when we already have one of the highest standards of living in the world. John W. Redelfs[EMAIL PROTECTED] = The traditional family is under heavy attack. I do not know that things were worse in the times of Sodom and Gomorrah. -- President Gordon B. Hinckley, 2004. = All my opinions are tentative pending further data. --JWR // /// ZION LIST CHARTER: Please read it at /// /// http://www.zionsbest.com/charter.html /// / --^ This email was sent to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] EASY UNSUBSCRIBE click here: http://topica.com/u/?aaP9AU.bWix1n.YXJjaGl2 Or send an email to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] TOPICA - Start your own email discussion group. FREE! http://www.topica.com/partner/tag02/create/index2.html --^
[ZION] Mozart Forever
I have found an incredible Internet destination for streaming audio. It is a broadcaster in Europe that streams Mozart 24 hours a day. However, to access the broadcast, go to http://www.live365.com and click on Classical. Then look down the list for Mozart forever, always. I am so happy about finding this. There seems to be a lot of other good stuff at this Internet address too. John W. Redelfs [EMAIL PROTECTED] === While we cannot agree with others on certain matters, we must never be disagreeable. We must be friendly, soft-spoken, neighborly, and understanding. (President Gordon B. Hinckley, October 2003) === All my opinions are tentative pending further data. --JWR // /// ZION LIST CHARTER: Please read it at /// /// http://www.zionsbest.com/charter.html /// / --^ This email was sent to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] EASY UNSUBSCRIBE click here: http://topica.com/u/?aaP9AU.bWix1n.YXJjaGl2 Or send an email to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] TOPICA - Start your own email discussion group. FREE! http://www.topica.com/partner/tag02/create/index2.html --^
RE: [ZION] The Return of the King
RB Scott wrote: I liked Harry Potter and have read all the books (because my children have). I liked the movie as well. Ditto Lord of The Rings. However, as a rule, neither are my cups of tea. My tastes and interests run more to the likes of: Dickens, Irving, Roth, Salinger, Dickinson, Potok, Wolfe. I thought Judith Freeman's (my first of her) was well crafted. Well, I decided to honor your good taste by taking one of your suggestions, Ron. I didn't want to read any porno, so I decided to read Wolfe instead of Roth. I just got back from the public library where I checked out THE SHADOW OF THE TORTURER by Gene Wolfe. I so glad that you recommended Wolfe, he has long been one of my favorite authors.. Heh, heh... I'm just kidding. I decided that you must have meant Tom Wolfe instead of Thomas Wolfe or Gene Wolfe, and I'm going to try THE BONFIRE OF THE VANITIES by Tom Wolfe. And just to make my evening cultural I picked up the second Laura Croft TOMB RAIDERS from Blockbuster. lol BTW, if you want to try a truly great Wolfe, read THE SHADOW OF THE TORTURER. Of course, Gene writes on a little higher reading level than Tom Wolfe. Hm I wonder if they will ever do a movie of THE BOOK OF THE NEW SUN. John W. Redelfs [EMAIL PROTECTED] === While we cannot agree with others on certain matters, we must never be disagreeable. We must be friendly, soft-spoken, neighborly, and understanding. (President Gordon B. Hinckley, October 2003) === All my opinions are tentative pending further data. --JWR // /// ZION LIST CHARTER: Please read it at /// /// http://www.zionsbest.com/charter.html /// / --^ This email was sent to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] EASY UNSUBSCRIBE click here: http://topica.com/u/?aaP9AU.bWix1n.YXJjaGl2 Or send an email to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] TOPICA - Start your own email discussion group. FREE! http://www.topica.com/partner/tag02/create/index2.html --^
RE: [ZION] The Return of the King
RB Scott wrote: I'll stick with Tom. I'm a low brow kinda guy. What do you know about Thomas Wolfe who wrote Look Homeward, Angel? I almost borrowed that one before I noticed Tom Wolfe right next to it on the shelf. John W. Redelfs [EMAIL PROTECTED] === While we cannot agree with others on certain matters, we must never be disagreeable. We must be friendly, soft-spoken, neighborly, and understanding. (President Gordon B. Hinckley, October 2003) === All my opinions are tentative pending further data. --JWR // /// ZION LIST CHARTER: Please read it at /// /// http://www.zionsbest.com/charter.html /// / --^ This email was sent to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] EASY UNSUBSCRIBE click here: http://topica.com/u/?aaP9AU.bWix1n.YXJjaGl2 Or send an email to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] TOPICA - Start your own email discussion group. FREE! http://www.topica.com/partner/tag02/create/index2.html --^
[ZION] Speaking Unto the Nations
Dear Heavenly Siblings, I noticed something a few days ago that arouses a question in my mind about 2 Nephi 29:12: For behold, I shall speak unto the Jews and they shall write it; and I shall also speak unto the Nephites and they shall write it; and I shall also speak unto the other tribes of the house of Israel, which I have led away, and they shall write it; and I shall also speak unto all nations of the earth and they shall write it. (2 Nephi 29:12) When the Lord speaks to the Jews and they write it, that's the Bible. When the Lord speaks to the Nephites and the write it, that's the Book of Mormon. When the Lord speaks to the other tribes and they write it, that's the scriptures the Lost Tribes will bring with them when they return. What are these scriptures of all nations of the earth? What are we expecting beyond the Bible, Book of Mormon, and scriptures of the Lost Tribes? Could this have reference to such writings as the Dead Sea Scrolls and Nag Hammadi manuscripts? Or is it a reference to writings that have not yet been discovered? John W. Redelfs [EMAIL PROTECTED] === While we cannot agree with others on certain matters, we must never be disagreeable. We must be friendly, soft-spoken, neighborly, and understanding. (President Gordon B. Hinckley, October 2003) === All my opinions are tentative pending further data. --JWR // /// ZION LIST CHARTER: Please read it at /// /// http://www.zionsbest.com/charter.html /// / --^ This email was sent to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] EASY UNSUBSCRIBE click here: http://topica.com/u/?aaP9AU.bWix1n.YXJjaGl2 Or send an email to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] TOPICA - Start your own email discussion group. FREE! http://www.topica.com/partner/tag02/create/index2.html --^
[ZION] Apocrypha
From: Encyclopedia of Mormonism, Vol.1, APOCRYPHA AND PSEUDEPIGRAPHA When Joseph Smith was engaged in translating the Old Testament (see Joseph Smith Translation of the Bible [JST]), he came to the Apocrypha and sought divine counsel on what to do with it. The revelation given in response to his prayer informed him that the Apocrypha contains both truth and error, but was mostly translated correctly (DC 91:1). Although he was counseled not to translate the Apocrypha, the revelation states that any who read those writings with the Holy Spirit as a guide shall obtain benefit therefrom; without the Holy Ghost, a man cannot be benefited spiritually by reading the Apocrypha (DC 91:5-6). --- Question: The Bible is mostly translated correctly and contains both truth and error. We can benefit from reading the Bible with the Holy Spirit as a guide, and we cannot benefit from reading the Bible without that guide. Everything that is said here of the Apocrypha could as well be said about the whole Bible, so what is the point in making a distinction? John W. Redelfs [EMAIL PROTECTED] === While we cannot agree with others on certain matters, we must never be disagreeable. We must be friendly, soft-spoken, neighborly, and understanding. (President Gordon B. Hinckley, October 2003) === All my opinions are tentative pending further data. --JWR // /// ZION LIST CHARTER: Please read it at /// /// http://www.zionsbest.com/charter.html /// / --^ This email was sent to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] EASY UNSUBSCRIBE click here: http://topica.com/u/?aaP9AU.bWix1n.YXJjaGl2 Or send an email to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] TOPICA - Start your own email discussion group. FREE! http://www.topica.com/partner/tag02/create/index2.html --^
[ZION] Robert J. Matthews
I am reading an article by Robert J. Matthews collected by Wilfred Griggs in his title APOCRYPHAL WRITINGS AND THE LATTER-DAY SAINTS. In his article, Matthews says that our present Old and New Testament canon, being selected in times of apostasy, is no doubt quite incomplete. Have LDS scholars ever suggested apocryphal or pseudepigraphal books that should have been included in the Biblical canon? What about additional portions of the Ethiopic Book of Enoch some of which is found in Moses 6 and 7 in our Pearl of Great Price? Obviously, nothing can be included in our canon without divine commandment, and the sustaining vote of the General Conference, but candidates for such treatment ought to be a more interesting part of the apocrypha than much of the rest of it, wouldn't you think? I'm just wondering what are some of the most obvious omissions from the Old and New Testaments? John W. Redelfs [EMAIL PROTECTED] === While we cannot agree with others on certain matters, we must never be disagreeable. We must be friendly, soft-spoken, neighborly, and understanding. (President Gordon B. Hinckley, October 2003) === All my opinions are tentative pending further data. --JWR // /// ZION LIST CHARTER: Please read it at /// /// http://www.zionsbest.com/charter.html /// / --^ This email was sent to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] EASY UNSUBSCRIBE click here: http://topica.com/u/?aaP9AU.bWix1n.YXJjaGl2 Or send an email to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] TOPICA - Start your own email discussion group. FREE! http://www.topica.com/partner/tag02/create/index2.html --^
[ZION] The Return of the King
Tomorrow it is exactly one month until the opening of The Lord of the Rings: The Return of the King on December 17th. --JWR // /// ZION LIST CHARTER: Please read it at /// /// http://www.zionsbest.com/charter.html /// / --^ This email was sent to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] EASY UNSUBSCRIBE click here: http://topica.com/u/?aaP9AU.bWix1n.YXJjaGl2 Or send an email to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] TOPICA - Start your own email discussion group. FREE! http://www.topica.com/partner/tag02/create/index2.html --^
[ZION] The Hymn of the Pearl
The Hymn of Judas Thomas the Apostle The Hymn of the Pearl or The Hymn of the Robe of Glory When I was a little child, and dwelling in my kingdom, in my father's house, and was content with the wealth and the luxuries of my nourishers, from the East, our home, my parents equipped me (and) sent me forth; and of the wealth of our treasury they took abundantly, (and) tied up for me a load large and (yet) light, which I myself could carry, gold of Beth-Ellaya, and silver of Gazak the great, and rubies of India, and agates from Beth-Kashan, and they furnished me with the adamant, which can crush iron. And they took off from me the glittering robe, which in their affection they made for me, and the purple toga, which was measured (and) woven to my stature. And they made a compact with me, and wrote it in my heart, that it might not be forgotten: If thou goest down into Egypt, and bringest the one pearl, which is in the midst of the sea around the loud-breathing serpent, thou shalt put on thy glittering robe and thy toga, with which (thou art) contented, and with thy brother, who is next to us in authority, thou shalt be heir in our kingdom. I quitted the East (and) went down, there being two guardians, for the way was dangerous and difficult, and I was very young to travel it. I passed through the borders of Maishan, the meeting-place of the merchants of the East, and I reached the land of Babel, and I entered the walls of Sarbug. I went down into Egypt, and my companions parted from me. I went straight to the serpent, I dwelt in his abode, (waiting) till he should lumber and sleep, and I could take my pearl from him. And when I was single and alone (and) became strange to my family, one of my race, a free-born man, and Oriental, I saw there, a youth fair and loveable, the son of oil-sellers; and he came and attached himself to me, and I made him my intimate friend, and associate with whom I shared my merchandise. I warned him against the Egyptians, and against consorting with the unclean; And I dressed in their dress, that they might not hold me in abhorrence, because I was come from abroad in order to take the pearl, and arouse the serpent against me. But in some way other or another they found out that I was not their countryman, and they dealt with me treacherously, and gave their food to eat. I forget that I was a son of kings, and I served their king; and I forgot the pearl, for which my parents had sent me, and because of the burden of their oppressions I lay in a deep sleep. But all this things that befell me my parents perceived, and were grieved for me; and proclamation was made in our kingdom, that every one should come to our gate [kingdom], kings and princes of Parthia, and all the nobles of the East. And they wove a plan on my behalf, that I might not be left in Egypt; and they wrote to me a letter, and every noble signed his name to it: From thy father, the king of kings, and thy mother, the mistress of the East, and from thy brother, our second (in authority), to thee our son, who art in Egypt, greeting! Call to mind that thou art a son of kings! See the slavery,--whom thou servest! Remember the pearl, for which thou was sent to Egypt! Think of thy robe, and remember thy splendid toga, which thou shalt wear and (with which) thou shalt be adorned, when thy name hath been read out in the list of the valiant, and thy brother, our viceroy, thou shalt be in our kingdom. My letter is a letter, which the king sealed with his own right hand, (to keep it) from the wicked ones, the children of Babel, and from the savage demons of Sarbug. It flew in the likeness of an eagle, the king of all birds; it flew and alight beside me, and became all speech. At its voice and the sound of its rustling, I started and arose from my sleep. I took it up and kissed it, and I began (and) read it; and according to what was traced on my heart were the words of my letter. I remembered that I was a son of royal parents, and my noble birth asserted itself. I remembered the pearl, for which I had been sent to Egypt, and I began to charm him, the terrible loud breathing serpent. I hushed him asleep and lulled him into slumber, for my father's name I named over him, and the name of our second (in power), and the of my mother, the queen of the East. And I snatched away the pearl, and turned to go back to my father's house. And their filthy and unclean dress I stripped off, and left it in their country; and I took my way straight to come to the light of our home in the East. And my letter, my awakener, I found before me on the road; and as with its voice it had awakened me, (so) too with its light it was leading me. It, that dwelt in the palace, gave light before me with its form, and with its voice and its guidance it also encouraged me to speed, and with its love it drew me on. I went forth (and) passed by Sarbug; I left Babel on my left hand; and I came to the great Maisan, to the haven of merchants, which sitteth on the
RE: [ZION] Inspirational Story
RB Scott wrote: Great story. It's been circulating for weeks. Where did you first read it, Ron? Old news isn't very useful. --JWR // /// ZION LIST CHARTER: Please read it at /// /// http://www.zionsbest.com/charter.html /// / --^ This email was sent to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] EASY UNSUBSCRIBE click here: http://topica.com/u/?aaP9AU.bWix1n.YXJjaGl2 Or send an email to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] TOPICA - Start your own email discussion group. FREE! http://www.topica.com/partner/tag02/create/index2.html --^
Re: [ZION] Starts with G guests
Tom Matkin wrote: Sonnet 133 (Some children live for only just a while) by Tom Matkin, March 30, 2002 Some children live for only just a while Mere visitors not really part of us Perhaps they've proved themselves without this trial Not needing but a touch of all this fuss. It wounds us when they get their final call We grieve and fret and feel the hand of pain Invested as we are in loving all It hurts, but it's our duty to remain. We know they meet with glory where they go They lose no blessings from their shortened stay And leave their touch of heaven's love below To spark resolve to live a better way. So one day when our earthly stay is done Brief guests and us can once again be one. This was truly beautiful, Tom. Thanks. --JWR // /// ZION LIST CHARTER: Please read it at /// /// http://www.zionsbest.com/charter.html /// / --^ This email was sent to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] EASY UNSUBSCRIBE click here: http://topica.com/u/?aaP9AU.bWix1n.YXJjaGl2 Or send an email to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] TOPICA - Start your own email discussion group. FREE! http://www.topica.com/partner/tag02/create/index2.html --^
[ZION] Left vs. Right
I don't know which party I am more upset with, the Democrats for dragging the country to the left, or the Republicans for putting up the sham fight that let them do it. --JWR // /// ZION LIST CHARTER: Please read it at /// /// http://www.zionsbest.com/charter.html /// / --^ This email was sent to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] EASY UNSUBSCRIBE click here: http://topica.com/u/?aaP9AU.bWix1n.YXJjaGl2 Or send an email to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] TOPICA - Start your own email discussion group. FREE! http://www.topica.com/partner/tag02/create/index2.html --^
[ZION] Good Feelings
One of the things I love about the Zion list is the feeling that we are all good friend even though we disagree about a lot of things. Even Marc Schindler, who was as close to a Marxist as I ever met on this list argued with me and the rest of us as if he felt a deep affection for us. Wouldn't you agree. I really hope that as we slam Ron Scott, and get slammed in return, we can all keep some good feelings towards each other. We don't have to dislike someone just because he disagrees with us. I'm sure there is a lot that we can do to engender good feelings on the list and still have a rip-roaring discussion, aren't you? John W. Redelfs [EMAIL PROTECTED] === While we cannot agree with others on certain matters, we must never be disagreeable. We must be friendly, soft-spoken, neighborly, and understanding. (President Gordon B. Hinckley, October 2003) === All my opinions are tentative pending further data. --JWR // /// ZION LIST CHARTER: Please read it at /// /// http://www.zionsbest.com/charter.html /// / --^ This email was sent to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] EASY UNSUBSCRIBE click here: http://topica.com/u/?aaP9AU.bWix1n.YXJjaGl2 Or send an email to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] TOPICA - Start your own email discussion group. FREE! http://www.topica.com/partner/tag02/create/index2.html --^
[ZION] Good News Sources
Ron, What do you feel are some of the best news sources on the Web? How about off the Web? I know that Marc Schindler continually gushed over the Economist, and truth be told, I found it a good source of news. But I still read The New American, Newsmax, and Worldnet Daily on the Web. They make no pretense of objectivity, but they give me the right-wing slant that I can't get anywhere else. What am I overlooking. I'm a little bored with the news sources I've been using. I'd like to try something new. John W. Redelfs [EMAIL PROTECTED] === While we cannot agree with others on certain matters, we must never be disagreeable. We must be friendly, soft-spoken, neighborly, and understanding. (President Gordon B. Hinckley, October 2003) === All my opinions are tentative pending further data. --JWR // /// ZION LIST CHARTER: Please read it at /// /// http://www.zionsbest.com/charter.html /// / --^ This email was sent to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] EASY UNSUBSCRIBE click here: http://topica.com/u/?aaP9AU.bWix1n.YXJjaGl2 Or send an email to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] TOPICA - Start your own email discussion group. FREE! http://www.topica.com/partner/tag02/create/index2.html --^
[ZION] The Descent of Man
If God is a man, and he existed before the world, and he created the world, how could mankind have evolved on this planet? I mean, how did God become a man? // /// ZION LIST CHARTER: Please read it at /// /// http://www.zionsbest.com/charter.html /// / --^ This email was sent to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] EASY UNSUBSCRIBE click here: http://topica.com/u/?aaP9AU.bWix1n.YXJjaGl2 Or send an email to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] TOPICA - Start your own email discussion group. FREE! http://www.topica.com/partner/tag02/create/index2.html --^
RE: [ZION] Sons of Perdition
RB Scott wrote: Cool your fighting blood and freshen your synapses, Till. If Brother McConkie is right this will obviously be a war of words -- of good thinking/doing prevailing over evil. Otherwise, s'plain to me how one would go about slaying the a spirit, or one of the Three Nephites, for instance. You lock them up in a prison, drape them in chains. In a hot war among immortals, the war has to be for prisoners. --JWR // /// ZION LIST CHARTER: Please read it at /// /// http://www.zionsbest.com/charter.html /// / --^ This email was sent to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] EASY UNSUBSCRIBE click here: http://topica.com/u/?aaP9AU.bWix1n.YXJjaGl2 Or send an email to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] TOPICA - Start your own email discussion group. FREE! http://www.topica.com/partner/tag02/create/index2.html --^
Re: [ZION] Sons of Perdition
Gerald Smith wrote: But the longlasting Outer Darkness made for Sons of Perdition is a place which already will be quite filled with the third of heaven that has already chosen it. Given 16 billion people estimated have already walked the earth, that means a minimum of 8 billion spirits rejected God in the Spirit World. There just won't be very many mortals going there, as they don't have enough knowledge to choose it (and given they have already rejected Satan's plan once, most probably won't change their minds and choose his plan later). Those who are mortal now don't have enough knowledge to choose to be Sons of Perdition, but what about after the resurrection of the wicked? Isn't there going to be another great war after the Millennium? Those who fight against Christ as resurrected beings following the resurrection of the wicked will have enough knowledge then, won't they? Or is this war going to be fought strictly between those who are mortal upon the earth then? John W. Redelfs [EMAIL PROTECTED] === While we cannot agree with others on certain matters, we must never be disagreeable. We must be friendly, soft-spoken, neighborly, and understanding. (President Gordon B. Hinckley, October 2003) === All my opinions are tentative pending further data. --JWR // /// ZION LIST CHARTER: Please read it at /// /// http://www.zionsbest.com/charter.html /// / --^ This email was sent to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] EASY UNSUBSCRIBE click here: http://topica.com/u/?aaP9AU.bWix1n.YXJjaGl2 Or send an email to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] TOPICA - Start your own email discussion group. FREE! http://www.topica.com/partner/tag02/create/index2.html --^
[ZION] Old Jeeps
Steven Montgomery wrote: I agree. I still have several Handyman jacks. But, in the particular bind I was in, since I was at the pinnacle of a very narrow steep ridge, I didn't have anyplace to put the jack, it wouldn't hold no matter where I put it or tried to brace it, so--I broke down and paid $50.00 to have a tow truck nudge me just enough to get me off. John English told of a jeep that belonged to a friend of ours, Fred Evans, that we cruised the deserts with around El Paso when we were young. But I have a story about Fred and his jeep that John may never have heard: On the 4th of July in 1973 I went out to Kilbourne Hole northwest of El Paso with my roommate Don Riding in his little Ford Pinto. It was about 105 degrees in the shade. Well, we got stuck in some soft sand in a dry creek bottom on the road, and we had to walk out, a really terrifying experience because so many die of dehydration in the same situation. We finally came to a deep well farm, and telephoned for a tow truck. The tow truck got stuck trying to pull us out. Then a second tow truck got stuck trying to pull out the first tow truck. Finally, we called Fred who brought his old WWII jeep out. Fred had better sense than to get down into the depression where the pinto and two tow trucks were stuck. He stayed up on the ridge and let out his winch. First he pulled out one tow truck, then the other, and finally the Pinto. Both the tow truck operators were so embarrassed. They had tried so hard to get out of the depression they had badly damaged their trucks on the rocks, tearing off their mufflers and doing body damage. It was late that night when all of us got home. Boy were we tired. And thank heaven for Fred and his old jeep. Did you ever hear that one, John? John W. Redelfs [EMAIL PROTECTED] === While we cannot agree with others on certain matters, we must never be disagreeable. We must be friendly, soft-spoken, neighborly, and understanding. (President Gordon B. Hinckley, October 2003) === All my opinions are tentative pending further data. --JWR // /// ZION LIST CHARTER: Please read it at /// /// http://www.zionsbest.com/charter.html /// / --^ This email was sent to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] EASY UNSUBSCRIBE click here: http://topica.com/u/?aaP9AU.bWix1n.YXJjaGl2 Or send an email to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] TOPICA - Start your own email discussion group. FREE! http://www.topica.com/partner/tag02/create/index2.html --^
RE: [ZION] Gun Control Impossible in the USA
Tom Matkin wrote: What are the correlating factors between gun ownership and illegal drug usage that lead you to make this comparison? Are you suggesting that, like drugs, gun ownership is an activity used to escape from the harshness or boredom of everyday life that is so highly addictive that people are willing to lose or risk everything to pursue it, and therefore it cannot be controlled by lawful means? If that's not the case, what is the correlation? Or are you saying that laws can't control anything because they can't control drugs? Or are you just trolling to try to revive the always popular and divisive gun control thread? There is no correlation between drugs and guns except that they are both examples of something that the law cannot control, or at least cannot eliminate. And yes, I was just trolling. I ran across an old post and just reposted it. grin --JWR // /// ZION LIST CHARTER: Please read it at /// /// http://www.zionsbest.com/charter.html /// / --^ This email was sent to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] EASY UNSUBSCRIBE click here: http://topica.com/u/?aaP9AU.bWix1n.YXJjaGl2 Or send an email to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] TOPICA - Start your own email discussion group. FREE! http://www.topica.com/partner/tag02/create/index2.html --^
RE: [ZION] Mother Teresa
[EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: Not only that, but according to Christ, almsgiving is to be done anonymously. Mother Theresa was FAMOUS for her unselfishness. Just how unselfish can giving be when it brings that kind of fame? --JWR Two points: 1)To my knowledge, Mother Thereas did not publicize her good deeeds, her life-long work with the poor. 2. To my knowledge, the Church does publicize its donations to worth causes around the world. Given that, John, S'plain your comments above. Be sure to cc me on the message (Reply to all) if you're seeking further comment from me on the subject as I'm reading only at the website from time to time. Inasmuch as Mother Theresa was an effective fund raiser for her work among the poor, I'm sure she did publicize her good deeds. And I don't always approve of everything the Church does. I just don't complain about it because I'm sure that either 1) I'll find out where I was mistaken or 2) the Lord will inspire his prophets to make changes. The truth is, Ron, I don't know that much about Mother Theresa. There are a lot of good people outside of the Church. Perhaps she was one of them. I'm still convinced that the best people are inside the Church. I have to believe that or discount the need for the gospel in the world. John W. Redelfs [EMAIL PROTECTED] === While we cannot agree with others on certain matters, we must never be disagreeable. We must be friendly, soft-spoken, neighborly, and understanding. (President Gordon B. Hinckley, October 2003) === All my opinions are tentative pending further data. --JWR // /// ZION LIST CHARTER: Please read it at /// /// http://www.zionsbest.com/charter.html /// / --^ This email was sent to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] EASY UNSUBSCRIBE click here: http://topica.com/u/?aaP9AU.bWix1n.YXJjaGl2 Or send an email to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] TOPICA - Start your own email discussion group. FREE! http://www.topica.com/partner/tag02/create/index2.html --^
RE: [ZION] Mother Teresa
I grew up outside the Church and met a number of good, honorable, even Christlike people. But the most Christlike people I have ever known, by far, are a small number of Mormons that I have met since joining the Church. But that is just anecdotal. --JWR // /// ZION LIST CHARTER: Please read it at /// /// http://www.zionsbest.com/charter.html /// / --^ This email was sent to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] EASY UNSUBSCRIBE click here: http://topica.com/u/?aaP9AU.bWix1n.YXJjaGl2 Or send an email to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] TOPICA - Start your own email discussion group. FREE! http://www.topica.com/partner/tag02/create/index2.html --^
Re: [ZION] Starts with G Gap
Don't forget the greed gap. That is the difference between a man's physiological needs, and his psychological needs for a particular standard of living. --JWR // /// ZION LIST CHARTER: Please read it at /// /// http://www.zionsbest.com/charter.html /// / --^ This email was sent to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] EASY UNSUBSCRIBE click here: http://topica.com/u/?aaP9AU.bWix1n.YXJjaGl2 Or send an email to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] TOPICA - Start your own email discussion group. FREE! http://www.topica.com/partner/tag02/create/index2.html --^
RE: [ZION] Old Jeeps
John A. English, n/OEF wrote: NO, I did not hear about that, however we must be on about the same page. Ira and I and I'm not sure who else, but there were three of us that were going to make a movie in the desert. I took my dad's old IH pickup out in the desert - to Kilborne's hole and it broke down in the hole. We made it back to town, and the rest of the story is about the same. My dad had to pay the tow trucks (two of them) anyway, and I was in a heap of trouble. We got a ride out of the desert in the back of a pickup - and the night had settled in. Boy was it cold. I think I must be confusing the two incidents, because I dimly remember an old green pickup. I think it was green. Anyway, it must have been you, me and Ira. The incident on July 4, 1973 with the Ford Pinto must have been another time. Sometimes I wonder if my mood swings aren't causing me permanent brain damage. Maybe it is early onset Alzheimers. Dang! Your friend and brother, John W. Redelfs, [EMAIL PROTECTED] // /// ZION LIST CHARTER: Please read it at /// /// http://www.zionsbest.com/charter.html /// / --^ This email was sent to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] EASY UNSUBSCRIBE click here: http://topica.com/u/?aaP9AU.bWix1n.YXJjaGl2 Or send an email to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] TOPICA - Start your own email discussion group. FREE! http://www.topica.com/partner/tag02/create/index2.html --^
[ZION] Holy Spirit of Promise
Is having ones Calling and Election Made Sure and being sealed by the Holy Spirit of Promise the same thing? --JWR // /// ZION LIST CHARTER: Please read it at /// /// http://www.zionsbest.com/charter.html /// / --^ This email was sent to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] EASY UNSUBSCRIBE click here: http://topica.com/u/?aaP9AU.bWix1n.YXJjaGl2 Or send an email to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] TOPICA - Start your own email discussion group. FREE! http://www.topica.com/partner/tag02/create/index2.html --^
[ZION] How to Become a Gospel Scholar
Didn't one of the apostles give a talk How to Become a Gospel Scholar or some such title? Does anyone here know which talk I'm referring to? Who gave it? Where it can be found? --JWR // /// ZION LIST CHARTER: Please read it at /// /// http://www.zionsbest.com/charter.html /// / --^ This email was sent to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] EASY UNSUBSCRIBE click here: http://topica.com/u/?aaP9AU.bWix1n.YXJjaGl2 Or send an email to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] TOPICA - Start your own email discussion group. FREE! http://www.topica.com/partner/tag02/create/index2.html --^
[ZION] Official Doctrine #3
From Gospel Principles: Knowing the Signs of the Times Can Help Us No one except our Heavenly Father knows exactly when the Lord will come. The Savior taught this with the parable of the fig tree. He said that when we see a fig tree putting forth leaves, we can tell that summer will soon come. Likewise, when we see the signs described in the scriptures, we can know that his coming is near. (See Matthew 24:32-33.) The Lord gave these signs to help us. We can put our lives in order and prepare ourselves and our families for those things yet to come. We do not need to worry about the calamities but can look forward to the coming of the Savior and be glad. The Lord said, Be not troubled, for, when all these things [the signs] shall come to pass, ye may know that the promises which have been made unto you shall be fulfilled(DC 45:35). He said those who are righteous when he comes will not be destroyed but shall abide the day. And the earth shall be given them for an inheritance; ...and their children shall grow up without sin. ...For the Lord shall be in their midst, and his glory shall be upon them, and he will be their king and their lawgiver(DC 45:57-59). Discussion How can knowing the signs of the Second Coming help us? --- The signs of the times help me in several ways: 1) They provide me with a sense of urgency about repenting of my sins, an urgency that I wouldn't feel if there were no signs of the times. 2) They fill me with joy as I contemplate the coming to an end of this wicked world with all its terribly injustice towards the innocent and helpless. Finally, the rich and powerful who gained their advantage at the expense of others will be dethroned. What joy this thought gives me, and it seems real primarily because of the signs of the times. 3) They comfort me because I feel like I am better prepared for what is to come as I repent and keep the commandments. Watching the signs of the times unfold gives me a feeling of control as I throw my lot in with the Savior because he IS in control. How do these signs of the times help you? John W. Redelfs [EMAIL PROTECTED] === The study of the doctrines of the Gospel will improve behavior quicker than a study of behavior will improve behavior. --Boyd K. Packer === All my opinions are tentative pending further data. --JWR // /// ZION LIST CHARTER: Please read it at /// /// http://www.zionsbest.com/charter.html /// / --^ This email was sent to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] EASY UNSUBSCRIBE click here: http://topica.com/u/?aaP9AU.bWix1n.YXJjaGl2 Or send an email to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] TOPICA - Start your own email discussion group. FREE! http://www.topica.com/partner/tag02/create/index2.html --^
Re: [ZION]
Stephen Beecroft wrote: // /// ZION LIST CHARTER: Please read it at /// /// http://www.zionsbest.com/charter.html /// / You seem to have forgotten to put anything in this message, Stephen. Better luck next time. --JWR // /// ZION LIST CHARTER: Please read it at /// /// http://www.zionsbest.com/charter.html /// / --^ This email was sent to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] EASY UNSUBSCRIBE click here: http://topica.com/u/?aaP9AU.bWix1n.YXJjaGl2 Or send an email to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] TOPICA - Start your own email discussion group. FREE! http://www.topica.com/partner/tag02/create/index2.html --^
Re: [ZION] Mother Teresa
Stephen Beecroft wrote: Christopher Hitchens hates Mother Teresa. This is not a secret. Given some of Hitchens' proclivities, I am not necessarily prone to uncritical acceptance of his viewpoint, but the man is very intelligent and, I think, makes a few good points. (Not that I know enough about the issues to make an informed judgment.) Given the praise of Mother Teresa taking place when I first returned to this list a few weeks back, I thought some might find this piece interesting, even despite its URL: http://slate.msn.com/id/2090083/ Excerpt: MT was not a friend of the poor. She was a friend of poverty. She said that suffering was a gift from God. She spent her life opposing the only known cure for poverty, which is the empowerment of women and the emancipation of them from a livestock version of compulsory reproduction. And she was a friend to the worst of the rich, taking misappropriated money from the atrocious Duvalier family in Haiti (whose rule she praised in return) and from Charles Keating of the Lincoln Savings and Loan. Where did that money, and all the other donations, go? The primitive hospice in Calcutta was as run down when she died as it always had been—she preferred California clinics when she got sick herself—and her order always refused to publish any audit. But we have her own claim that she opened 500 convents in more than a hundred countries, all bearing the name of her own order. Excuse me, but this is modesty and humility? The rich world has a poor conscience, and many people liked to alleviate their own unease by sending money to a woman who seemed like an activist for 'the poorest of the poor.' People do not like to admit that they have been gulled or conned, so a vested interest in the myth was permitted to arise, and a lazy media never bothered to ask any follow-up questions. Many volunteers who went to Calcutta came back abruptly disillusioned by the stern ideology and poverty-loving practice of the 'Missionaries of Charity,' but they had no audience for their story. George Orwell's admonition in his essay on Gandhi—that saints should always be presumed guilty until proved innocent—was drowned in a Niagara of soft-hearted, soft-headed, and uninquiring propaganda. Not only that, but according to Christ, almsgiving is to be done anonymously. Mother Theresa was FAMOUS for her unselfishness. Just how unselfish can giving be when it brings that kind of fame? --JWR // /// ZION LIST CHARTER: Please read it at /// /// http://www.zionsbest.com/charter.html /// / --^ This email was sent to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] EASY UNSUBSCRIBE click here: http://topica.com/u/?aaP9AU.bWix1n.YXJjaGl2 Or send an email to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] TOPICA - Start your own email discussion group. FREE! http://www.topica.com/partner/tag02/create/index2.html --^
[ZION] Signs Already Received
Many of the signs of Christ's Second Coming have already been received. Help me list them: 1. The restoration of the gospel. 2. The coming forth of the Book of Mormon 3. The return of Elijah 4. The gospel taken to the Lamanites 5. Gospel preached in almost all the world 6. Israelites established in the tops of the mountains 7. Jews gather to the lands of their inheritance 8. Temples dot the earth 9. Hearts of the fathers and children turned to each other 10. Gospel taught in heathen nations 11. Wicked more wicked and the righteous get more righteous 12. Increase in natural disasters 13. Wars and rumors of wars 14. False Christs and false prophets 15. Violence proliferates 16. Surge in witchcraft and satanism 17. Desolating sickness [AIDS] covers the land Which ones am I missing? John W. Redelfs [EMAIL PROTECTED] === While we cannot agree with others on certain matters, we must never be disagreeable. We must be friendly, soft-spoken, neighborly, and understanding. (President Gordon B. Hinckley, October 2003) === All my opinions are tentative pending further data. --JWR // /// ZION LIST CHARTER: Please read it at /// /// http://www.zionsbest.com/charter.html /// / --^ This email was sent to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] EASY UNSUBSCRIBE click here: http://topica.com/u/?aaP9AU.bWix1n.YXJjaGl2 Or send an email to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] TOPICA - Start your own email discussion group. FREE! http://www.topica.com/partner/tag02/create/index2.html --^
[ZION] Signs Yet to Come
Here is a brief, incomplete list of the signs of the times that have not yet been fulfilled: 1. Global hailstorm 2. No rainbow 3. Global earthquake 4. Sun turn dark 5. Moon turn to blood 6. Stars fall from heaven 7. Burning mountain cast into the sea 8. Priesthood meeting at Adam-ondi-ahman 9. Islamic and communist countries receive gospel 10. Jews begin to believe in Jesus as Messiah 11. Return of Lost Tribes from the north 12. Return of Enoch's Zion 13. Coming forth of the rest of the Book of Mormon 14. Temple built in Jerusalem 15. Temple built in Jackson County 16. All nations go up to war against Jerusalem 17. Constitution saved when it hangs by a thread 18. Anti-christ rises up before all nations 19. No man can buy or sell without the mark of the beast 20. Renewed persecution of the saints What else? What have I missed? John W. Redelfs [EMAIL PROTECTED] === While we cannot agree with others on certain matters, we must never be disagreeable. We must be friendly, soft-spoken, neighborly, and understanding. (President Gordon B. Hinckley, October 2003) === All my opinions are tentative pending further data. --JWR // /// ZION LIST CHARTER: Please read it at /// /// http://www.zionsbest.com/charter.html /// / --^ This email was sent to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] EASY UNSUBSCRIBE click here: http://topica.com/u/?aaP9AU.bWix1n.YXJjaGl2 Or send an email to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] TOPICA - Start your own email discussion group. FREE! http://www.topica.com/partner/tag02/create/index2.html --^
Re: [ZION] Introducing John W. Redelfs
Jon Spencer wrote: My wife hopes to retire in about three years. We hope to serve missions for the Church if our health permits. In the meantime, I'll prepare for my mission with scripture and gospel study, and by continuing to run these email lists. So, whose going to take over the email list when you bug out (on your mission in three years)? I haven't been thinking that far down the road, Jon. I'm sure there will be some acceptable solution to the problem. --JWR // /// ZION LIST CHARTER: Please read it at /// /// http://www.zionsbest.com/charter.html /// / --^ This email was sent to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] EASY UNSUBSCRIBE click here: http://topica.com/u/?aaP9AU.bWix1n.YXJjaGl2 Or send an email to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] TOPICA - Start your own email discussion group. FREE! http://www.topica.com/partner/tag02/create/index2.html --^
Re: [ZION] Dungeons and Dragons
Cousin Bill wrote: New thread attempt number 2. The topic of Dungeons and Dragons has come up before. Someone forwarded this to me, so I thought I would forward it to you guys. If you've never played DD then you might not understand what you come out as. But this link shows you what alignment, race, and class you would be. http://twinrose.net/dandchar.php It decided I would be a Chaotic Good Half-Elf Bard. I don't know but what it picked me out pretty well. Give it a try. I'm a neutral, good, human, fighter, ranger. --JWR // /// ZION LIST CHARTER: Please read it at /// /// http://www.zionsbest.com/charter.html /// / --^ This email was sent to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] EASY UNSUBSCRIBE click here: http://topica.com/u/?aaP9AU.bWix1n.YXJjaGl2 Or send an email to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] TOPICA - Start your own email discussion group. FREE! http://www.topica.com/partner/tag02/create/index2.html --^
Re: [ZION] Thrift!
Steven Montgomery wrote: Well, the other day I traded it for an almost brand new EZ3-Trike (A 21 speed recumbent trike which can go faster than a mountain bike. My kids can't ride a regular bike so we were looking for various types of trikes that they could ride) worth $750.00. Which means that after using the pickup for more than eight years we sold it for only $50.00 less than we what we bought it for. How's that for thrift? Anyone else have similar thrift stories to tell? In 1975 I bought a 1964 Oldsmobile Cutlass for a hundred dollars. Fours years and 40,000 miles later I sold it for 30 dollars to a junk man. During that 4 years I did all the work on it myself. The only time I ever took it to a mechanic was for a smog inspection certificate. --JWR // /// ZION LIST CHARTER: Please read it at /// /// http://www.zionsbest.com/charter.html /// / --^ This email was sent to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] EASY UNSUBSCRIBE click here: http://topica.com/u/?aaP9AU.bWix1n.YXJjaGl2 Or send an email to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] TOPICA - Start your own email discussion group. FREE! http://www.topica.com/partner/tag02/create/index2.html --^
Re: [ZION] This is Me
Tom Matkin wrote: I wear hats. Fedora's, Pendletons, Straws, Outbacks, and the like. I wear hats in a place where all the other men, and a few of the women, favour ball caps. Even in their Sunday best they will sometimes wear a John Deere cap... to the temple. It used to startle me a bit, but I've grown accustomed to it. Others have had trouble becoming accustomed to me in my black fedora, but ain't that the way it is, some of us never sit quite easy in the saddle. Years ago in my early 20's I wore a Stetson business fedora. Since then I have either been hatless or worn a baseball cap. Then last Christmas my wife bought me a fedora. Inside it proclaims that it is an official Indiana Jones hat, the same style he wore in the movies. I like it a lot, but it is wool felt. It isn't fur felt, and it doesn't have a satin lining, so it isn't the best hat I've every owned. I have ambitions to own an even better hat, by and by, maybe a homburg but probably another fedora. Where do you get your hats? Here in Ketchikan the selection is dismal. Do you buy any of them on the Internet. If so, what are some of your favorite websites? John W. Redelfs [EMAIL PROTECTED] === The study of the doctrines of the Gospel will improve behavior quicker than a study of behavior will improve behavior. --Boyd K. Packer === All my opinions are tentative pending further data. --JWR // /// ZION LIST CHARTER: Please read it at /// /// http://www.zionsbest.com/charter.html /// / --^ This email was sent to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] EASY UNSUBSCRIBE click here: http://topica.com/u/?aaP9AU.bWix1n.YXJjaGl2 Or send an email to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] TOPICA - Start your own email discussion group. FREE! http://www.topica.com/partner/tag02/create/index2.html --^
[ZION] Introducing John W. Redelfs
I am 58 years old, the father of three children, and the husband of one wife. My home for the last sixteen years has been Ketchikan, Alaska where my career has been househusband and home schooler. Earlier in my life I worked as a laborer, salesman, logger, oil field roughneck, campus police officer, locksmith, stock broker and other occupations too numerous to mention. I have attended college, but I never obtained a degree. In addition to Omaha I have lived in Rochester, Minnesota; El Paso, Texas; Chicago, Illinois; Salt Lake City, Utah; Berkeley, California; Los Angeles, California; Houston, Texas; and many other place too numerous to mention. I was in the US Marine Corps in 1964-65. I joined the Church as a senior in high school in 1963. After a five year struggle I finally overcame my Word of Wisdom problems, and I have been active since 1968. I was ordained a Priest in 1965, an Elder in 1971, and an High Priest in 1996. I have served in many Church callings including but not limited to Ward Clerk, District Clerk, Elders Quorum Counselor, Elders Quorum President, Sunday School President, Sacrament Meeting Chorister, High Councilor, Early Morning Seminary Teacher, and High Priest Group Leader. Currently I am the Gospel Doctrine teacher in the Ketchikan Alaska Ward Sunday School. Esperanza and I married in the Los Angeles temple in 1978, over 25 years ago. We have three children. Sara, born in 1979, is currently studying at the University of Massachusetts in Boston to obtain a bachelor's degree in registered nursing. Her husband is in his third year of dental school at Boston University. Rebekah, who was born in 1981, is living in Juneau, Alaska where her husband runs the computer help desk at the University of Alaska in Juneau. On September 5th they had a baby girl named Julia who is my first grandchild. My son Jack, who was born in 1984 and will be 20 years old in February, has finally left home and is also in Juneau where he is preparing for a mission. Now that Jack is gone, I'm struggling a little with empty nest syndrome. From the age of eight I have been in love with libraries, used bookstores, and recently the Internet. My hobbies have varied widely over the years and include photography, amateur astronomy, coin collecting, skin diving, backpacking, fishing, hiking, acting in collegiate and community theater, singing in collegiate and community choirs, reading science fiction and fantasy, and for the last ten years: running email discussion lists for Mormons on the Internet. Of them all, this last one has been the most satisfying and the source of countless hours of enjoyment and a number of lifelong friends. My wife hopes to retire in about three years. We hope to serve missions for the Church if our health permits. In the meantime, I'll prepare for my mission with scripture and gospel study, and by continuing to run these email lists. Oh, my all-time favorite authors are: Edgar Rice Burroughs, Orson Scott Card, William Shakespeare, Alexandre Dumas, and Tennessee Williams. My all-time favorite movies are: Star Wars, Zefirelli's Romeo and Juliet, Zefirelli's Jesus of Nazareth, Ben Hur, and Blade Runner. My favorite dessert is chocolate mousse cheesecake. My favorite color is yellow. And my favorite firearm is the 1911A1 Colt .45 ACP. And now you know more about me than you probably want to know. If I've left anything out, just ask. John W. Redelfs [EMAIL PROTECTED] === The study of the doctrines of the Gospel will improve behavior quicker than a study of behavior will improve behavior. --Boyd K. Packer === All my opinions are tentative pending further data. --JWR // /// ZION LIST CHARTER: Please read it at /// /// http://www.zionsbest.com/charter.html /// / --^ This email was sent to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] EASY UNSUBSCRIBE click here: http://topica.com/u/?aaP9AU.bWix1n.YXJjaGl2 Or send an email to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] TOPICA - Start your own email discussion group. FREE! http://www.topica.com/partner/tag02/create/index2.html --^
Re: [ZION] Sons of perdition
Gerald Smith wrote: I have some quotes here, which will show that one must do more than receive the Holy Ghost and reject it to become a candidate for perdition. You will see that one must receive the Holy Ghost, have the heavens opened up, know God, and then totally and completely rebel. I agree with this, but what does it mean to have the heavens opened up, and know God? Can a person gain a perfect knowledge so that faith is dormant by the witness of the Holy Ghost alone? Or does he actually have to see the face of God? --JWR // /// ZION LIST CHARTER: Please read it at /// /// http://www.zionsbest.com/charter.html /// / --^ This email was sent to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] EASY UNSUBSCRIBE click here: http://topica.com/u/?aaP9AU.bWix1n.YXJjaGl2 Or send an email to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] TOPICA - Start your own email discussion group. FREE! http://www.topica.com/partner/tag02/create/index2.html --^
RE: [ZION] Far Right In the Church
Ron Scott wrote: Interesting and revealing response. Freud would have a field day with you. Like so many of the far right we have remained, of couple GBH and BKP, as if the latter makes the former tolerable for now, ignorinng, advertantly or inadvertantly, the fact that President Monson is next in line. And I will be thrilled to sustain him as our new Prophet and President if he outlives President Hinckley, something that is by no means certain. Either of them could die of old age tomorrow, as could Elder Packer, for that matter. I don't know what order they will die in. Do you? --JWR // /// ZION LIST CHARTER: Please read it at /// /// http://www.zionsbest.com/charter.html /// / --^ This email was sent to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] EASY UNSUBSCRIBE click here: http://topica.com/u/?aaP9AU.bWix1n.YXJjaGl2 Or send an email to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] TOPICA - Start your own email discussion group. FREE! http://www.topica.com/partner/tag02/create/index2.html --^
[ZION] Wee Small Hours
You are up awfully early in the morning for a Bostonian, aren't you, Ron? It's only a quarter past midnight here in the wilds of Alaska. My oldest girl, Sara, lives there in Boston, Newton actually. Her husband is attending dental school there. BTW, over the years I've been discussing politics on the Internet I've become increasingly confused to the point that I doubt if many of your stereotypes would apply. Perhaps we could discuss the evolution of my political thought sometime. John W. Redelfs [EMAIL PROTECTED] === While we cannot agree with others on certain matters, we must never be disagreeable. We must be friendly, soft-spoken, neighborly, and understanding. (President Gordon B. Hinckley, October 2003) === All my opinions are tentative pending further data. --JWR // /// ZION LIST CHARTER: Please read it at /// /// http://www.zionsbest.com/charter.html /// / --^ This email was sent to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] EASY UNSUBSCRIBE click here: http://topica.com/u/?aaP9AU.bWix1n.YXJjaGl2 Or send an email to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] TOPICA - Start your own email discussion group. FREE! http://www.topica.com/partner/tag02/create/index2.html --^
RE: [ZION] Wee Small Hours
Ron Scott wrote: She lives in Newton? Where do the attend church? Weston or Cambridge? Is her husband at Tufts or BC (didn't know BC had a dental school). I don't know, Ron. I get the schools back there are mixed up. I just fired off an email to my daughter asking her. I'm embarrassed that I have to ask. --JWR // /// ZION LIST CHARTER: Please read it at /// /// http://www.zionsbest.com/charter.html /// / --^ This email was sent to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] EASY UNSUBSCRIBE click here: http://topica.com/u/?aaP9AU.bWix1n.YXJjaGl2 Or send an email to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] TOPICA - Start your own email discussion group. FREE! http://www.topica.com/partner/tag02/create/index2.html --^
RE: [ZION] Wee Small Hours
Ron Scott wrote: If she lives in Newton and attends the regular ward for the city (as opposed to the many student wards in Cambridge) she goes ( I assume, given her relationship to you, that she's active) to church in Weston, where I'm supposed to. Her bishop is a very good friend, Cary Hopkins. I live in a small town that is technically part of the Weston First Ward. However, because we're the only Mormon family in a tiny town (Pop. 4,000) that is on the border between the two wards we have been given the option of choosing the First or Second Ward (the one that includes the city of Newton). Both meet in the same building, the stake center for the Boston Stake. My youngest daughter attends school in Chestnut Hill, a section of Newton: hence I am in your daughter's neighborhood, more or less, every single day. What does she do while her husband attends dental school? She is in nursing school, and hopes to graduate in April. She and her husband are also live in student nannies for some children in the area. To hear her tell it, she is more busy than a one armed paper hanger with the hives. --JWR // /// ZION LIST CHARTER: Please read it at /// /// http://www.zionsbest.com/charter.html /// / --^ This email was sent to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] EASY UNSUBSCRIBE click here: http://topica.com/u/?aaP9AU.bWix1n.YXJjaGl2 Or send an email to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] TOPICA - Start your own email discussion group. FREE! http://www.topica.com/partner/tag02/create/index2.html --^
Re: [ZION] Getting Married Older [was Official Doctrine #2]
Valerie Nielsen Williams wrote: It's even harder for an older (middle-aged) widow. I wouldn't mind finding a time-only companion. But it seems that the widowers in the church want to be sealed to another woman, instead of finding one who is already sealed. At my bishop's behest I tried LDSPlanet for a couple of months. Profiles of widowers, majority, want to be sealed again to wife #2. I can't compete with that, so I don't even try. At this point, I'm content to live alone. President Hunter married his second wife for time only because she was already sealed to another. So did the father of the man who ordained me a high priest. In fact, he married a second wife for time only, and when she died he married a third wife for time only. Not all of the men in the Church are into plural marriage beyond the grave, at least not so you would notice in their behavior as widowers. --JWR // /// ZION LIST CHARTER: Please read it at /// /// http://www.zionsbest.com/charter.html /// / --^ This email was sent to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] EASY UNSUBSCRIBE click here: http://topica.com/u/?aaP9AU.bWix1n.YXJjaGl2 Or send an email to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] TOPICA - Start your own email discussion group. FREE! http://www.topica.com/partner/tag02/create/index2.html --^
Re: [ZION] HELP
Ron Scott wrote: Somehow I misplaced the address for the website, where I can read posts on line. Would you please forward the address to me when you get a moment. http://topica.com/lists/zion/read // /// ZION LIST CHARTER: Please read it at /// /// http://www.zionsbest.com/charter.html /// / --^ This email was sent to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] EASY UNSUBSCRIBE click here: http://topica.com/u/?aaP9AU.bWix1n.YXJjaGl2 Or send an email to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] TOPICA - Start your own email discussion group. FREE! http://www.topica.com/partner/tag02/create/index2.html --^
RE: [ZION] A reading list
Gerald Smith wrote: I'm currently reading this note you sent. ;-) I'm also involved in how to write science fiction and fantasy by our own Orson Scott Card; and The Book of J edited by Harold Bloom. Gary This is really a coincidence. I'm reading THE AMERICAN RELIGION by Bloom, and he makes a lot of references to THE BOOK OF J. Also, I own the Card book and have recently put it back on my reading schedule because I just started a SF novel a few weeks ago. --JWR // /// ZION LIST CHARTER: Please read it at /// /// http://www.zionsbest.com/charter.html /// / --^ This email was sent to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] EASY UNSUBSCRIBE click here: http://topica.com/u/?aaP9AU.bWix1n.YXJjaGl2 Or send an email to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] TOPICA - Start your own email discussion group. FREE! http://www.topica.com/partner/tag02/create/index2.html --^
Re: [ZION] A reading list
Cousin Bill wrote: I was just wondering what everyone is reading these days. I'm currently working my way through Red Rabbit by Tom Clancy. I had decided to read the Iliad and the Odyssey, but I didn't get too far before I realized that I will need to get the Cliff Notes to go with that. My little brain just doesn't function that well. Luckily I will be heading for Savannah next month so I plan to pick it up then. I'm thinking of reading Contact by Carl Sagan next. I really enjoyed the movie, and I can't imagine anyone having seen that movie without being convinced that there is life out there beyond the confines of the earth. So does anyone care to share what they are reading these days? Or their thoughts on life in outer space? I'm kind of angry at myself. Astute readers will notice that I have a new e-mail address. I also have a new computer. I downloaded the SETI program, but when I tried to add on to my previous SETI total they asked for my password. I have no idea, and since they only send the password to the old address (which has since been cancelled), I'm out of luck. I had over 400 completed work units, and had to start over. I'm at about 90 now. One good thing, my new computer whips through those work units between two and three times as fast as my old computer. Anyway, I ask again, what are you guys reading? I've been reading THE AMERICAN RELIGION by Harold Bloom and discussing it some online both here and on some of the other lists. Recently I finished reading a western by Ralph Compton entitled THE VIRGINIA CITY TRAIL. Also, I'm trying to finish up reading THE TEACHINGS OF GORDON B. HINCKLEY, but I have quite a way to go. It is a pretty big book and not exactly fast reading. John W. Redelfs [EMAIL PROTECTED] === While we cannot agree with others on certain matters, we must never be disagreeable. We must be friendly, soft-spoken, neighborly, and understanding. (President Gordon B. Hinckley, October 2003) === All my opinions are tentative pending further data. --JWR // /// ZION LIST CHARTER: Please read it at /// /// http://www.zionsbest.com/charter.html /// / --^ This email was sent to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] EASY UNSUBSCRIBE click here: http://topica.com/u/?aaP9AU.bWix1n.YXJjaGl2 Or send an email to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] TOPICA - Start your own email discussion group. FREE! http://www.topica.com/partner/tag02/create/index2.html --^
Re: [ZION] A reading list
Steven Montgomery wrote: The play by Aristophanes is book two of a Great Books of the Western World reading plan (See: http://www.io.com/~beckerdo/books/gb195210.html ) that I have embarked upon. There are many such plans available. Many of the books (Or selections) I have already read so I might skip them and replace them with others. What books would you (Or should I) include in a ten-year reading list? There have been 15 Presidents of the Church in this dispensation. Have you read the standard compilation of the sermons of each? If not, they should be on a ten year reading list. --JWR // /// ZION LIST CHARTER: Please read it at /// /// http://www.zionsbest.com/charter.html /// / --^ This email was sent to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] EASY UNSUBSCRIBE click here: http://topica.com/u/?aaP9AU.bWix1n.YXJjaGl2 Or send an email to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] TOPICA - Start your own email discussion group. FREE! http://www.topica.com/partner/tag02/create/index2.html --^
[ZION] BYU Alumnus Broadcast
There is a worldwide BYU Alumni satellite broadcast tonight, but I don't know the time. Is anyone here planning to attend? --JWR // /// ZION LIST CHARTER: Please read it at /// /// http://www.zionsbest.com/charter.html /// / --^ This email was sent to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] EASY UNSUBSCRIBE click here: http://topica.com/u/?aaP9AU.bWix1n.YXJjaGl2 Or send an email to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] TOPICA - Start your own email discussion group. FREE! http://www.topica.com/partner/tag02/create/index2.html --^
Re: [ZION] A reading list
Steven Montgomery wrote: Let's see, if I recall correctly, I've read the Teachings of President Spencer W. Kimball, Ezra Taft Benson, Howard W. Hunter and Gordon B. Hinckley. I've also read the Journal of Discourses. I have also read the complete (to my knowledge, at least) published works of, Spencer W. Kimball, Ezra Taft Benson, Bruce R. McConkie, and Gordon B. Hinckley. In addition I've read much of the writings of every other Prophet of this dispensation. As well as many other books, biographies and histories. Next time you are by my place drop in. I will give you a chocolate covered attaboy. --JWR // /// ZION LIST CHARTER: Please read it at /// /// http://www.zionsbest.com/charter.html /// / --^ This email was sent to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] EASY UNSUBSCRIBE click here: http://topica.com/u/?aaP9AU.bWix1n.YXJjaGl2 Or send an email to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] TOPICA - Start your own email discussion group. FREE! http://www.topica.com/partner/tag02/create/index2.html --^
[ZION] Sons of Perdition, Not a Few
Evidently many among us have made a dreadful mistake, but not unpardonable, in thinking that the sons of perdition will be very few. We have heard it said at times that they will be so few that they probably could be counted on the fingers of one hand. Where this thought originated we may not know. From the reading of the scriptures it appears that there will be a large number; far too many even if there were but one, for their punishment is most severe without any question. (Joseph Fielding Smith, Answers to Gospel Questions, Vol.1, p.78) // /// ZION LIST CHARTER: Please read it at /// /// http://www.zionsbest.com/charter.html /// / --^ This email was sent to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] EASY UNSUBSCRIBE click here: http://topica.com/u/?aaP9AU.bWix1n.YXJjaGl2 Or send an email to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] TOPICA - Start your own email discussion group. FREE! http://www.topica.com/partner/tag02/create/index2.html --^
Re: [ZION] BYU Alumnus Broadcast
Lew Thomas wrote: You are invited to the Tabernacle on Temple Square in Salt Lake City on FRIDAY, NOV. 7, FROM 7 TO 8 P.M. to hear President Gordon B. Hinckley and new BYU President Cecil O. Samuelson speak at a Worldwide Alumni Gathering. Because we do not have email addresses for all our BYU alumni and friends, please help us get the word out by inviting your BYU friends to this event. Thanks Lew. This is exactly the information that I needed. --JWR // /// ZION LIST CHARTER: Please read it at /// /// http://www.zionsbest.com/charter.html /// / --^ This email was sent to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] EASY UNSUBSCRIBE click here: http://topica.com/u/?aaP9AU.bWix1n.YXJjaGl2 Or send an email to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] TOPICA - Start your own email discussion group. FREE! http://www.topica.com/partner/tag02/create/index2.html --^
[ZION] Sons of Perdition
In an effort to document Ron Scott's assertion that there will be very few Sons of Perdition, a number so small they can be counted on the fingers of one hand, I have been studying a few dozen of the references out of the many hundreds available on my CD-ROM, and I have learned a few things. 1) It is folk doctrine, and it is false that there will be only a few Sons of Perdition. In one place Joseph Fielding Smith denounces the fingers of one hand language. In another he says there were be many Sons of Perdition, but quickly adds that even one would be too many given the severity of the punishment. 2) A person cannot ignorantly become a Son of Perdition. He must willingly rebel against Heaven, just as Lucifer did. 3) He must commit the unpardonable sin which is the sin against the Holy Ghost. That is, he must first have the testimony of Jesus and then fight against the Savior. 4) Joseph Smith once said that he must first have the heavens open unto him, which seems to be the source of confusion. Judging from other passages, having the heavens open is just an euphemism for having a testimony born of the Holy Ghost, not some spectacular vision such as Moses had in the PofGP or Nephi had in the BoM. 5) Apparently it is possible to have the perfect knowledge required by receiving a witness of the Holy Ghost. Anyway, so far it seems pretty vague just how much knowledge a person has to have in order to qualify as a Son of Perdition, but I'm going to play it safe and not rebel against God. Studying it, I get the distinct impression that one does not have to 1) have ones Calling and Election made sure, or 2) receive the Second Comforter, or 3) receive the vision given to Nephi and Moses. A person can qualify by merely having the testimony of the Holy Ghost that Jesus is the Christ and then turn altogether away from that testimony and knowingly fight against him. John W. Redelfs [EMAIL PROTECTED] === While we cannot agree with others on certain matters, we must never be disagreeable. We must be friendly, soft-spoken, neighborly, and understanding. (President Gordon B. Hinckley, October 2003) === All my opinions are tentative pending further data. --JWR // /// ZION LIST CHARTER: Please read it at /// /// http://www.zionsbest.com/charter.html /// / --^ This email was sent to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] EASY UNSUBSCRIBE click here: http://topica.com/u/?aaP9AU.bWix1n.YXJjaGl2 Or send an email to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] TOPICA - Start your own email discussion group. FREE! http://www.topica.com/partner/tag02/create/index2.html --^
Re: [ZION] Commies and Pinkos
Grampa Bill in Savannah wrote: It has been written that if a boy does not grow up to be a better man than his father, then they are both failures. Can we parphrase that to say that if a boy doesn't grow up to be further to the right than his father (or mother) then they are both failures? Sounds like the gospel to me. grin --JWR // /// ZION LIST CHARTER: Please read it at /// /// http://www.zionsbest.com/charter.html /// / --^ This email was sent to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] EASY UNSUBSCRIBE click here: http://topica.com/u/?aaP9AU.bWix1n.YXJjaGl2 Or send an email to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] TOPICA - Start your own email discussion group. FREE! http://www.topica.com/partner/tag02/create/index2.html --^
[ZION] Official Doctrine #2
Eternal Marriage Is Essential for Exaltation Many people in the world consider marriage to be only a social custom, a legal agreement between a man and a woman to live together. But to Latter-day Saints, marriage is much more. Our exaltation depends on marriage. We believe that marriage is the most sacred relationship that can exist between a man and a woman. This sacred relationship affects our happiness now and in the eternities. Heavenly Father has given us the law of eternal marriage so we can become like him. We must live this law to be able to have spirit children. The Lord has said: In the celestial glory there are three heavens or degrees; And in order to obtain the highest, a man must enter into this order of the priesthood [meaning the new and everlasting covenant of marriage]; And if he does not, he cannot obtain it (DC 131:1-3). --- Anyone disagree that this is official Church doctrine? Our missionaries teach it to investigators and it is taught to all new members as part of the Gospel Essentials Sunday School class. Is this controversial, or what? Are any of the Brethren divided on this? John W. Redelfs [EMAIL PROTECTED] === While we cannot agree with others on certain matters, we must never be disagreeable. We must be friendly, soft-spoken, neighborly, and understanding. (President Gordon B. Hinckley, October 2003) === All my opinions are tentative pending further data. --JWR // /// ZION LIST CHARTER: Please read it at /// /// http://www.zionsbest.com/charter.html /// / --^ This email was sent to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] EASY UNSUBSCRIBE click here: http://topica.com/u/?aaP9AU.bWix1n.YXJjaGl2 Or send an email to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] TOPICA - Start your own email discussion group. FREE! http://www.topica.com/partner/tag02/create/index2.html --^
RE: [ZION] Nehors - was: Unconditional Love
Ron Scott wrote: Ah, the Church of Ezra resurrects itself. Who is its profit: Reed? Speaking of dead prophets, which are we to disdain more, Ezra Taft Benson or Bruce R. McConkie? And after President Hinckley dies are we to discount his words immediately, or should we wait an appropriate mourning period? John W. Redelfs [EMAIL PROTECTED] === The study of the doctrines of the Gospel will improve behavior quicker than a study of behavior will improve behavior. --Boyd K. Packer === All my opinions are tentative pending further data. --JWR // /// ZION LIST CHARTER: Please read it at /// /// http://www.zionsbest.com/charter.html /// / --^ This email was sent to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] EASY UNSUBSCRIBE click here: http://topica.com/u/?aaP9AU.bWix1n.YXJjaGl2 Or send an email to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] TOPICA - Start your own email discussion group. FREE! http://www.topica.com/partner/tag02/create/index2.html --^
[ZION] Was Elder McConkie a Prophet?
Ron Scott wrote: Was BRM a prophet? Actually, I continue to respect the words of dead prophets, but I frame them in the context today. In doing so, I often discover that much of what they had to say had revealed more of about their personal opinions than church doctrine. I'd say this was the case for every single prophet, beginning with Joseph Smith. But, that's just my opinion. Every six months the Church membership sustains the First Presidency and the Twelve as prophets, seers, and revelators. All fifteen of these men are sustained by the Church general conference as prophets. But no, Elder Bruce R. McConkie was never the President of the Church. He was a prophet, but he wasn't the Prophet. John W. Redelfs [EMAIL PROTECTED] === The study of the doctrines of the Gospel will improve behavior quicker than a study of behavior will improve behavior. --Boyd K. Packer === All my opinions are tentative pending further data. --JWR // /// ZION LIST CHARTER: Please read it at /// /// http://www.zionsbest.com/charter.html /// / --^ This email was sent to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] EASY UNSUBSCRIBE click here: http://topica.com/u/?aaP9AU.bWix1n.YXJjaGl2 Or send an email to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] TOPICA - Start your own email discussion group. FREE! http://www.topica.com/partner/tag02/create/index2.html --^
RE: [ZION] Official Doctrine #2
Ron Scott wrote: What is this, some kind of litmus test? Please define new and everlasting covenant? It is not a litmus test, it is a Sunday School lesson from the Gospel Essentials Sunday School manual entitled GOSPEL PRINCIPLES. On another thread George Cobabe said that official Church doctrine was very hard to determine. And I said that this is only true if we get into speculative areas. As long as we stick to the most basic fundamentals, official Church doctrine is easily determined. Well, the Gospel Essentials class is for investigators and new members and it basically just supplements and reinforces the missionary discussions that all our missionaries teach to new investigators. The manual, which has been through correlation, restricts itself to the most basic fundamentals and is NOT controversial in the tiniest degree. What is the new and everlasting covenant? The phrase is used two ways that I know of: 1) It is a reference to the Book of Mormon, and 2) it is a reference to temple marriage for time and all eternity. This latter usage is evidently the one being used in the lesson I posted. I have thought I would post parts of the GOSPEL PRINCIPLES manual from time to time to see if I get any disagreement, and if so, from whom. I keep hearing about false doctrine creeping into our correlated manuals, but I don't know of any particular instances. I thought this might be one way of finding out. John W. Redelfs [EMAIL PROTECTED] === While we cannot agree with others on certain matters, we must never be disagreeable. We must be friendly, soft-spoken, neighborly, and understanding. (President Gordon B. Hinckley, October 2003) === All my opinions are tentative pending further data. --JWR // /// ZION LIST CHARTER: Please read it at /// /// http://www.zionsbest.com/charter.html /// / --^ This email was sent to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] EASY UNSUBSCRIBE click here: http://topica.com/u/?aaP9AU.bWix1n.YXJjaGl2 Or send an email to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] TOPICA - Start your own email discussion group. FREE! http://www.topica.com/partner/tag02/create/index2.html --^
RE: [ZION] Nehors - was: Unconditional Love
Ron Scott wrote: It also troubling that some members of the Church, particularly those with far right political views, think he is the only latter-day prophet worth listening to. Strawman. There are no such far right members still in the Church that I am aware of. And I know an awful lot of the far right crowd being one of them myself. --JWR // /// ZION LIST CHARTER: Please read it at /// /// http://www.zionsbest.com/charter.html /// / --^ This email was sent to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] EASY UNSUBSCRIBE click here: http://topica.com/u/?aaP9AU.bWix1n.YXJjaGl2 Or send an email to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] TOPICA - Start your own email discussion group. FREE! http://www.topica.com/partner/tag02/create/index2.html --^
RE: [ZION] Official Doctrine #2
Ron Scott wrote: If that's how you define, eternal marriage between one man and one woman, then no problem. Between man and woman. According to DC 132, plural marriage is OK as long as it is authorized by the priesthood. --JWR // /// ZION LIST CHARTER: Please read it at /// /// http://www.zionsbest.com/charter.html /// / --^ This email was sent to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] EASY UNSUBSCRIBE click here: http://topica.com/u/?aaP9AU.bWix1n.YXJjaGl2 Or send an email to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] TOPICA - Start your own email discussion group. FREE! http://www.topica.com/partner/tag02/create/index2.html --^
RE: [ZION] Official Doctrine #2
Sandy and Melinda Rabinowitz wrote: Celestial marriage is important...if I didn't think so, I wouldn't have written so many woe is me posts over the years. ;-) But the covenants made in the sealing room won't exactly hold a lot of water if the persons who made them don't follow through, or in other words, endure to the end. Even worse, children get caught in the crossfire, and their spiritual state has to be considered as well. I tend to think the Lord may hold such parents responsible to the extent that their children have fallen away as a direct result. I remember those woe is me posts, Sandy. And when I see how the Lord has blessed you since, it builds my faith. Would that all the single men in the Church were as devoted to keeping the commandment to marry as seriously as you did and do. --JWR // /// ZION LIST CHARTER: Please read it at /// /// http://www.zionsbest.com/charter.html /// / --^ This email was sent to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] EASY UNSUBSCRIBE click here: http://topica.com/u/?aaP9AU.bWix1n.YXJjaGl2 Or send an email to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] TOPICA - Start your own email discussion group. FREE! http://www.topica.com/partner/tag02/create/index2.html --^
[ZION] THE AMERICAN RELIGION
Hey Ron, are you familiar with THE AMERICAN RELIGION by Harold Bloom? I've been reading it the last couple of weeks, and I find it fascinating that a Gentile (actually, he is an unbelieving Jew) would state a conviction that 1. The Latter-day Saints will resume the practice of plural marriage in the first half of the 21st century. 2. The Latter-day Saints will establish a sovereign state in either part or all of the United States at about the same time. I have long felt that this would happen. I find it remarkable that such a renowned and worldly scholar would have come to the same conclusion. What do you think? John W. Redelfs [EMAIL PROTECTED] === While we cannot agree with others on certain matters, we must never be disagreeable. We must be friendly, soft-spoken, neighborly, and understanding. (President Gordon B. Hinckley, October 2003) === All my opinions are tentative pending further data. --JWR // /// ZION LIST CHARTER: Please read it at /// /// http://www.zionsbest.com/charter.html /// / --^ This email was sent to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] EASY UNSUBSCRIBE click here: http://topica.com/u/?aaP9AU.bWix1n.YXJjaGl2 Or send an email to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] TOPICA - Start your own email discussion group. FREE! http://www.topica.com/partner/tag02/create/index2.html --^
RE: [ZION] Nehors - was: Unconditional Love
Ron Scott wrote: Ah yes. And no Korihors and wolves in sheeps clothing either, right John? I'm pretty sure there are some Korihors and wolves in sheep's clothing. Ezra Taft Benson said so. grin --JWR // /// ZION LIST CHARTER: Please read it at /// /// http://www.zionsbest.com/charter.html /// / --^ This email was sent to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] EASY UNSUBSCRIBE click here: http://topica.com/u/?aaP9AU.bWix1n.YXJjaGl2 Or send an email to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] TOPICA - Start your own email discussion group. FREE! http://www.topica.com/partner/tag02/create/index2.html --^
[ZION] Commies and Pinkos
Ron Scott wrote: That's fine. The politics can come later--as you gain more light and knowledge grin. Which reminds me of a joke. Something about newborn mice being good communists. When the commissar come back a few weeks later he discovers they are not communists anymore--their eyes had opened. Or something to that effect. --- Say, who are you and your pals chasing now that there aren't commies and pinkos in every commode and closet? Personally, I've moved away from politics and further into the gospel. I know that the commies and pinkos are still there, I just don't care as much what they are doing. Maybe you could fill me in, do you think? Not that you were ever a commie or a pinko. And if you go looking for commies and pinkos you still might be able to find some of them if you look in the right places: China North Korea Cuba Vietnam Harvard Yale ??? John W. Redelfs [EMAIL PROTECTED] === The study of the doctrines of the Gospel will improve behavior quicker than a study of behavior will improve behavior. --Boyd K. Packer === All my opinions are tentative pending further data. --JWR // /// ZION LIST CHARTER: Please read it at /// /// http://www.zionsbest.com/charter.html /// / --^ This email was sent to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] EASY UNSUBSCRIBE click here: http://topica.com/u/?aaP9AU.bWix1n.YXJjaGl2 Or send an email to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] TOPICA - Start your own email discussion group. FREE! http://www.topica.com/partner/tag02/create/index2.html --^
[ZION] Far Right In the Church
Tom Matkin wrote: Strawman. There are no such far right members still in the Church that I am aware of. And I know an awful lot of the far right crowd being one of them myself. --JWR I'm only able to follow this logically if you are out of the Church now John. Help me understand what you are trying to say? I was responding to a statement by Ron that the far right members listened ONLY to President Ezra Taft Benson. I know such, but they are former Mormons who have left the Church. Those who have remained also hearken to the other prophets such as President Hinckley, Elder Packer, etc. I think you missed the word such in the above quotation. I'm not denying that there are far right in the Church. I am one myself. But such as hearken ONLY to Ezra Taft Benson I am not, nor do I know others who retain their membership. John W. Redelfs [EMAIL PROTECTED] === While we cannot agree with others on certain matters, we must never be disagreeable. We must be friendly, soft-spoken, neighborly, and understanding. (President Gordon B. Hinckley, October 2003) === All my opinions are tentative pending further data. --JWR // /// ZION LIST CHARTER: Please read it at /// /// http://www.zionsbest.com/charter.html /// / --^ This email was sent to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] EASY UNSUBSCRIBE click here: http://topica.com/u/?aaP9AU.bWix1n.YXJjaGl2 Or send an email to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] TOPICA - Start your own email discussion group. FREE! http://www.topica.com/partner/tag02/create/index2.html --^
Re: [ZION] Official Doctrine #2
George Cobabe wrote: As you know, John, when you ask the question I can testify that this is true. However there is more to the answer than what has been presented. I would be delighted to discuss this topic with courtesy and good will, if that would be possible. If you have any information that current Church leaders support your view that all who obtain the Celestial Kingdom inherit eternal life, I would be interested. Otherwise, I'd rather move on to something else. I don't want Tom Matkin leaving the list again. His views and mine are very much mainstream as stated in GOSPEL PRINCIPLES. John W. Redelfs [EMAIL PROTECTED] === The study of the doctrines of the Gospel will improve behavior quicker than a study of behavior will improve behavior. --Boyd K. Packer === All my opinions are tentative pending further data. --JWR // /// ZION LIST CHARTER: Please read it at /// /// http://www.zionsbest.com/charter.html /// / --^ This email was sent to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] EASY UNSUBSCRIBE click here: http://topica.com/u/?aaP9AU.bWix1n.YXJjaGl2 Or send an email to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] TOPICA - Start your own email discussion group. FREE! http://www.topica.com/partner/tag02/create/index2.html --^
RE: [ZION] Official Doctrine #2
Tom Matkin wrote: But I am curious how we are going to square the circle of proselyting those corners of the world where it is in good standing. But God has figured that out and he'll let us know when we have a need to know. For now, those who insist on practicing it separate themselves from the good fellowship and ordinances of the Church, and justly so. But I'm fiercely positive about the divine institution of plural marriage at and for the time and place that it was established. These are my feelings exactly. --JWR // /// ZION LIST CHARTER: Please read it at /// /// http://www.zionsbest.com/charter.html /// / --^ This email was sent to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] EASY UNSUBSCRIBE click here: http://topica.com/u/?aaP9AU.bWix1n.YXJjaGl2 Or send an email to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] TOPICA - Start your own email discussion group. FREE! http://www.topica.com/partner/tag02/create/index2.html --^
RE: [ZION] Official Doctrine #2
Sandy and Melinda Rabinowitz wrote: And, technically, it *is* presently authorized in one very specific instance: Brother A is sealed to Sister B. B dies. (By definition, this sealing continues beyond death.) Brother A can at a later point be sealed to Sister C. In fact, I think that was what happened with Howard W. Hunter. Actually, my understanding is the President Hunter's second wife was for time only. She was already sealed to another man. Elder Dallin Oaks is a good example though. He is still sealed to his first wife, but he has taken another worthy sister to the temple for time and all eternity. I just hope the two sisters get along. John W. Redelfs [EMAIL PROTECTED] === While we cannot agree with others on certain matters, we must never be disagreeable. We must be friendly, soft-spoken, neighborly, and understanding. (President Gordon B. Hinckley, October 2003) === All my opinions are tentative pending further data. --JWR // /// ZION LIST CHARTER: Please read it at /// /// http://www.zionsbest.com/charter.html /// / --^ This email was sent to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] EASY UNSUBSCRIBE click here: http://topica.com/u/?aaP9AU.bWix1n.YXJjaGl2 Or send an email to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] TOPICA - Start your own email discussion group. FREE! http://www.topica.com/partner/tag02/create/index2.html --^
