Edgar, Thank you for the confirmation. I have to leave now. Will
address this issue deeper when I have more time. It is most
important. In short Zen may have lost a major part of Chan in Japan.
Edgar Owen wrote:
I don't think Zen pays much attention to karma. Zen certainly
doesn't accept reincarnation which is how karma is typically
transmitted according to traditional Buddhist thought. Zen is more
about dealing with the present however it may appear. Nor does Zen
posit any after death states such as nirvana or supernatural Buddha
realms (though in early Chan there are passing references to such when
discussing earlier texts). Zen is all about the here now, there is zero
supernatural element to Zen.
Zen does accept that right action facilitates enlightenment in
this lifetime though.
On Sep 3, 2008, at 12:20 PM, Jue Miao Jing Ming - 覺妙精明 wrote:
I don't know whether the "other guy" you were talking about is Donald
Hwong. I am Donald Hwong. I switched my email to my Dharma Name,
JMJM. A dharma name is a name given by my teacher as a recognition for
the world of dharma. We have approximately 50 people with dharma names
in our school with about 50,000 practitioners in all. We are probably
the largest at-home practitioner group that I know, meaning without
temple, formality, words, rules, etc.
I am one of the two teachers in the US. I am in charge of the English
classes. We have about 6 classes in Los Angeles. However, I am still
learning. I don't consider my English is sufficient, nor my sharing of
Chan has any value. I have been called many titles, including a monk
with hair. None of these are necessary. A lot of times, I don't even
like to sign off on my post. Honestly, there is nothing to learn,
nothing to master. We had all within us.
I have been with your group and other groups for about 5-6 years now.
What I have learned is that the concept of karma and cause and effect
are not taught in the Zen. At least, the Roshi in the other group
openly stated so.
Without the correct understanding of karma and cause and effect, and
the proper practice to witness it, there is no way to rid of the
karma. It seems to me, after reading off/online for about 7-8 years,
Zen differs from Chan in the fact Zen has no spiritual power. It is
just a mental exercise without any connection to the life forces of the
universe. I do hope that I am limited in my scope.
To be enlightened, surpass the three realms is the first step, they are
the realm of Desire, Form and the Formless. Or in short the karmic
hindrances to body, mind and spirit. Karma is not a theory. It is a
force, we can sense, process, transfer, etc. Without a practice to rid
of karma, we still can suffer from sickness, (bodily karma), mental
anguish (mind karma) and accidents (spiritual karma).
Just some observations to share.
By the way, are you a Roshi or a monk or
a sensei? I am sorry that I may sound disrespectful to you and the
other guy (forgot who he was), but this forum has been in existence
around ten years and there have been a lot of people claiming to be
senseis or monks and sometimes they were not and sometimes they were
and unfortunately they usually had their feelings hurt and left so
whenever I do not see you post I presume you already gave up and left.
Apparently the other guy did as he has not posted in a long time.
Thank you for giving so much, this is
character building though some call it abuse.
----- Original Message -----
Sent: Wednesday, September 03, 2008
Subject: Re: [Zen] Sick of Flaming
Chan is One, the big One. The One which supports everything
invisible on an equal basis without preference. The fact that each
tree grows differently maybe obvious to our eyes, but the causes of
their differences are difficult to see. Often, instead of pondering on
the cause, and causes of causes of their difference, we label these
trees by comparing them and deluded to believe that our labels were
Every incident, encounter, formation and phenomenon in our lives are the
result of some causes, and each cause are often caused by generations of
causes. It is our purpose, as Chan practitioners, to
satisfy/consummate/resolve/ferry each one, such that this karma
propagate. This the "first act of perfection" -- giving. Not judging,
categorizing, filing away, ignoring, but giving.
It is our practice to recognize the variations of cause and effect and
learn from them to resolve/satisfy externally as well as make peace
internally, such that our spirituality is strengthened and enhanced.
Lotus does not grow from clean water. The bigger the mud, the bigger
Let us do it together.
[EMAIL PROTECTED]org wrote:
> The only thing that can be done to stop the flaming is to turn this
> forum into a fully moderated forum in which the moderator - Al -
> and approves postings before allowing them on the forum. Al could
> probably block some contributors, but they could get around this
> easily by just registering as a different name.
> A fully moderated forum has a lot of drawbacks:
> - it's a LOT OF WORK for the moderator
> - it slows down posting exchanges
> - it gives the power of censorship to the moderator - which in this
> case is Al, whom I'm comfortable with, but it's always a bone of
> - there are probably more drawbacks that I haven't thought of...
> I think it would be better to keep the forum open and just censor
> postings yourself - by using your delete key.
> Also, and maybe the best suggestion, is we could all help reduce
> flaming by not responding to flames - which I am guilty of. I do
> because flaming doesn't bother me. Not responding would reduce the
> reason to flame because there would be no indignant reaction to
> the flames.
> What does everyone else think?
> Al, this topic keeps coming up. What do you think?
> From: [EMAIL PROTECTED]ps.com <mailto:Zen_Forum%40yahoogroups.com>
> [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]ps.com
On Behalf Of Cynthia-Graphic
> Significance Music
> Sent: Wednesday, September 03, 2008 2:55 AM
> To: [EMAIL PROTECTED]ps.com <mailto:Zen_Forum%40yahoogroups.com>
> Subject: [Zen] Sick of Flaming
> I just want the flaming to stop. How can we get that crap off the
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> http://www.eset.com <http://www.eset.com>
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