Edgar and JMJM,

As regards to JMJM's comment about '...Zen may have lost a major part of Chan 
in Japan.', I say GOOD!  The less the better!  Put in down, put it all down!  


From: Zen_Forum@yahoogroups.com [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] On Behalf Of Jue Miao 
Jing Ming - ????
Sent: Thursday, September 04, 2008 1:25 AM
To: Zen_Forum@yahoogroups.com
Subject: Re: [Zen] Character Building

Edgar,  Thank you for the confirmation.  I have to leave now.  Will address 
this issue deeper when I have more time.  It is most important.  In short Zen 
may have lost a major part of Chan in Japan.  JM.

Edgar Owen wrote: 

I don't think Zen pays much attention to karma. Zen certainly doesn't accept 
reincarnation which is how karma is typically transmitted according to 
traditional Buddhist thought. Zen is more about dealing with the present 
however it may appear. Nor does Zen posit any after death states such as 
nirvana or supernatural Buddha realms (though in early Chan there are passing 
references to such when discussing earlier texts). Zen is all about the here 
now, there is zero supernatural element to Zen.

Zen does accept that right action facilitates enlightenment in this lifetime 


On Sep 3, 2008, at 12:20 PM, Jue Miao Jing Ming - 覺妙精明 wrote:

Hi Al,

I don't know whether the "other guy" you were talking about is Donald Hwong.  I 
am Donald Hwong.  I switched my email to my Dharma Name, JMJM.  A dharma name 
is a name given by my teacher as a recognition for the world of dharma.  We 
have approximately 50 people with dharma names in our school with about 50,000 
practitioners in all.  We are probably the largest at-home practitioner group 
that I know, meaning without temple, formality, words, rules, etc.

I am one of the two teachers in the US.  I am in charge of the English classes. 
 We have about 6 classes in Los Angeles.  However, I am still learning.  I 
don't consider my English is sufficient, nor my sharing of Chan has any value.  
 I have been called many titles, including a monk with hair.  None of these are 
necessary.  A lot of times, I don't even like to sign off on my post.  
Honestly, there is nothing to learn, nothing to master.  We had all within us.

I have been with your group and other groups for about 5-6 years now.  What I 
have learned is that the concept of karma and cause and effect are not taught 
in the Zen.  At least, the Roshi in the other group openly stated so.  

Without the correct understanding of karma and cause and effect, and the proper 
practice to witness it, there is no way to rid of the karma.  It seems to me, 
after reading off/online for about 7-8 years, Zen differs from Chan in the fact 
Zen has no spiritual power.  It is just a mental exercise without any 
connection to the life forces of the universe.   I do hope that I am limited in 
my scope.

To be enlightened, surpass the three realms is the first step, they are the 
realm of Desire, Form and the Formless.  Or in short the karmic hindrances to 
body, mind and spirit.  Karma is not a theory.  It is a force, we can sense, 
process, transfer, etc.  Without a practice to rid of karma, we still can 
suffer from sickness, (bodily karma), mental anguish (mind karma) and accidents 
(spiritual karma).

Just some observations to share.

Fitness63 wrote:

By the way, are you a Roshi or a monk or a sensei? I am sorry that I may sound 
disrespectful to you and the other guy (forgot who he was), but this forum has 
been in existence around ten years and there have been a lot of people claiming 
to be senseis or monks and sometimes they were not and sometimes they were and 
unfortunately they usually had their feelings hurt and left so whenever I do 
not see you post I presume you already gave up and left. Apparently the other 
guy did as he has not posted in a long time.
Thank you for giving so much, this is character building though some call it 
----- Original Message -----
From: Jue Miao Jing Ming - 覺妙精明
To: Zen_Forum@yahoogroups.com
Sent: Wednesday, September 03, 2008 1:56 AM
Subject: Re: [Zen] Sick of Flaming

Chan is One, the big One. The One which supports everything visible and 
invisible on an equal basis without preference. The fact that each 
tree grows differently maybe obvious to our eyes, but the causes of 
their differences are difficult to see. Often, instead of pondering on 
the cause, and causes of causes of their difference, we label these 
trees by comparing them and deluded to believe that our labels were real.

Every incident, encounter, formation and phenomenon in our lives are the 
result of some causes, and each cause are often caused by generations of 
causes. It is our purpose, as Chan practitioners, to 
satisfy/consummate/resolve/ferry each one, such that this karma does not 
propagate. This the "first act of perfection" -- giving. Not judging, 
categorizing, filing away, ignoring, but giving.

It is our practice to recognize the variations of cause and effect and 
learn from them to resolve/satisfy externally as well as make peace 
internally, such that our spirituality is strengthened and enhanced.

Lotus does not grow from clean water. The bigger the mud, the bigger 
the lotus.

Let us do it together.

> Cynthia,
> The only thing that can be done to stop the flaming is to turn this 
> forum into a fully moderated forum in which the moderator - Al - reads 
> and approves postings before allowing them on the forum. Al could also 
> probably block some contributors, but they could get around this very 
> easily by just registering as a different name.
> A fully moderated forum has a lot of drawbacks:
> - it's a LOT OF WORK for the moderator
> - it slows down posting exchanges
> - it gives the power of censorship to the moderator - which in this 
> case is Al, whom I'm comfortable with, but it's always a bone of 
> contention
> - there are probably more drawbacks that I haven't thought of...
> I think it would be better to keep the forum open and just censor the 
> postings yourself - by using your delete key.
> Also, and maybe the best suggestion, is we could all help reduce the 
> flaming by not responding to flames - which I am guilty of. I do that 
> because flaming doesn't bother me. Not responding would reduce the 
> reason to flame because there would be no indignant reaction to fuel 
> the flames.
> What does everyone else think?
> Al, this topic keeps coming up. What do you think?
> ...Bill!
> From: Zen_Forum@yahoogroups.com <mailto:Zen_Forum%40yahoogroups.com> 
> [mailto:Zen_Forum@yahoogroups.com 
> <mailto:Zen_Forum%40yahoogroups.com>] On Behalf Of Cynthia-Graphic 
> Significance Music
> Sent: Wednesday, September 03, 2008 2:55 AM
> To: Zen_Forum@yahoogroups.com <mailto:Zen_Forum%40yahoogroups.com>
> Subject: [Zen] Sick of Flaming
> I just want the flaming to stop. How can we get that crap off the group?
> Cynthia
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> This message was checked by NOD32 antivirus system.
> http://www.eset.com <http://www.eset.com>


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