> > "Is it the case that zazen and other zen practices, over a long
period of time, under the guidance of an accredited Zen master, can
alter the neurophysiology of the brain, resulting in the experience of 
'enlightenment' or equivalently, the realization of one's  'Buddha
nature'?"  --ED

> Hi ED:

> Thank you for the trust you have put on me by  asking me the below
main question posted yourself.  That sounds a very American question. 
Here in Europe we never heard of these kind of questions about zen.  It
sounds a question to make more appealing the practice of zen to people.



Hi Mayka,

Do you feel that it is disrespectful and discounting of zen to have
asked such a question?

> I don't don't know whether the practice of zen alters the
neurophysiology of the brain resulting in an enlightened experience or
not. I can certainly tell you out of myself direct experience that there
is a gradual transformation within oneself.

Yes, and that is why the statement says "... over a long period of time
..."

> This transformation has nothing to do with any kind of magic ...

Both Bill and I agree that zen is a natural process.

> ... or alteration of any kind.

Several studies of the brains of deep and experienced meditators show
anatomical and physiological differences from the brains of
non-meditators.

> According to my personal experience zen is very far of being an
alteration of any kind, ...

The changes have to be detected by CAT scans, fMRIs, and so on.

> ... well on the contrary.  There is no excitment, no dualism and
therefore no attachments while experiencing buddha nature.

It takes phenomenal changes to transform the perpetually excited,
continually thinking, dualistic modern  man into one who experiences
'just THIS' in every moment.

> Buddha nature is not an static state either.  It's something that
comes and goes as everything else.  With the difference that there is
the key to get one into that state at any time one wants to be there. 
And the key is practice, practice, practice....Easy to say and not as
easy to be put into action.

This is true and is compatible with a neurological model.

> It seems that in your question there is also a condition for that
alteration in the brain to happen;  and that is that in order to that
experience to take place one should be guided and trained by an
acredited Zen Master.

> Let me tell you with all due respect that a real zen master won't ever
guide to an student to any altered state.

I believe you.

  And if you hear a Master of his/her students to say that then walk away
because you'll be finding yourself with a fake.  Be very cautious with
this because your way of approaching is asking to be manipulated by non
real zen.   Do not ever trust the "magic".  Zen is not magic but tedious
and boring to the intelectual mind.

Mayka

Mayka, your advice makes good sense, and I promise to be ever-vigilant.

--ED



--- In Zen_Forum@yahoogroups.com, Maria Lopez <flordel...@...> wrote:
>

Hi ED:   Thank you for the trust you have put on me by  asking me the
below main question posted yourself.  That sounds a very American
question.  Here in Europe we never heard of these kind of questions
about zen.  It sounds a question to make more appealing the practice of
zen to people.     I don't don't know whether the practice of zen alters
the neurophysiology of the brain resulting in an enlightened experience
or not. I can certainly tell you out of myself direct experience that
there is a gradual transformation within oneself.  This transformation
has nothing to do with any kind of magic or alteration of any kind. 
According to my personal experience zen is very far of being an
alteration of any kind, well on the contrary.  There is no excitment, no
dualism and therefore no attachments while experiencing buddha nature. 
Buddha nature is not an static state either.  It's something that comes
and goes as everything else.  With the difference that there is the key
to get one into that state at any time one wants to be there.  And the
key is practice, practice, practice....Easy to say and not as easy to be
put into action.   It seems that in your question there is also a
condition for that alteration in the brain to happen;  and that is that
in order to that experience to take place one should be guided and
trained by an acredited Zen Master. Let me tell you with all due respect
that a real zen master won't ever guide to an student to any altered
state.  And if you hear a Master of his/her students to say that then
walk away because you'll be finding yourself with a fake.  Be very
cautious with this because your way of approaching is asking to be
manipulated by non real zen.   Do not ever trust the "magic".  Zen is
not magic but tedious and boring to the intelectual mind.   Mayka    ---
On Tue, 19/10/10, ED <seacrofter...@...> wrote:


Mayka, Leaving aside any differences we might have in the method for
realizing of Buddha Mind - and I doubt we do - what is your position
with respect to the following statement:   o   Is it the case that zazen
and other zen practices, over a long period of time, under the guidance
of an accredited Zen master, can alter the neurophysiology of the brain,
resulting in the experience of  'enlightenment' or equivalently, the
realization of one's  'Buddha nature'?     Kind regards,  --ED   --- In
Zen_Forum@yahoogroups.com, Maria Lopez <flordel...@...> wrote:
>
> http://groups.yahoo.com/group/Zen_Forum/message/20438
<http://groups.yahoo.com/group/Zen_Forum/message/20438>  >
http://groups.yahoo.com/group/Zen_Forum/message/20439
<http://groups.yahoo.com/group/Zen_Forum/message/20439>  

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