date:20090615



Kyle Mcallister wrote:

 
 Perreault's (don't beat me with a stick for saying his name)
 weird-ass coax cable thing. This thing: 
 http://www.nuenergy.org/alt/radiant_energy_diatribe.htm I wonder what
 it does? Probably nothing, but I just happen to have everything
 needed to make one. Setting this thing up should at least scare the
 neighbors. And their poodle.
 

Interesting page.  Here are some comments (yes, they're just theory, I
don't have a 30K DC supply to start with and I'm not getting one to test
this):

-- It should work, but don't plan to disconnect from Edison just yet,
because it's probably not going to produce much power.

-- A careful reading of the page indicates to me that the page author
hasn't got a clue what the thing actually does, nor why it produces
volts.  Take my word for it or don't, I'm not going to pick apart the
details here.

-- Similarly, the author has never made a power measurement, and has no
idea how much power the thing actually produces.  It seems impressive
and weird and can make a lot of volts, so it *must* produce a lot of
power, too -- that's about the extent of the reasoning.

-- Coax, when carrying a static charge (*not* acting as a wave guide),
is just a rolled up parallel plate capacitor.  Keep that in mind, it
helps with understanding the thing.

-- The setup procedure with the oven and the 30K supply puts a permanent
*polarization* on the dielectric, NOT a permanent *charge*.  Picture
charged parallel plates:  Outside the capacitor the charges on the
plates cancel, and there is (almost) NO DETECTABLE STATIC FIELD.  No
field extending two feet from the cable in all directions (as they
claim), no field extending even two inches in all directions.  No
external field at all.  So, there is also NO CAPTURE OF ATMOSPHERIC
IONS; just forget that, it's confusion on the part of the author.

But then, what is going on?  Here's a really big clue, from 'way down
the page:

For it to function properly there should be a swag to it.

Here's another clue:

If you see that the cable is physically vibrating you will know that it
is set up properly.

So, the cable must FLEX (as it sways in the wind, which it can do
because of the swag) and it must VIBRATE to work.  Aha!  Things become
clear.

Take a parallel plate capacitor, put a dielectric in it, and put a
permanent polarization on the dielectric.  What do you get?  You get a
weird capacitor, which carries a substantial charge when it's at zero
volts.  Nothing else strange seems to happen, unless you *move* one of
the plates.  If you change the interplate distance, then, because of
that charge it's got, its voltage won't remain at zero -- it'll go down,
if the plates come together, or it'll go up, if they move apart.  If it
vibrates, you'll get an AC voltage coming out.  If you short it while
it's vibrating, you'll get an AC current coming out instead.  And
there's your electret microphone, of course.

Now let's look at that cable again.  It's been abused -- it's been
cooked and chilled, and its plastic sheath has been stripped off.  It's
probably not all that tightly bound together any more.  So, as it flexes
in the wind, and particularly as it vibrates, you'll get some variation
in the radius; the distance from the shield to the central conductor
will vary somewhat chaotically at various places along the cable as it
wiggles.  And when that happens, because of the polarization of the
dielectric, you'll get current flowing to the places where the
dielectric is compressed, and away from places where it's stretched a
bit or the shield is separating from the dielectric, and overall you'll
see a random AC voltage coming out the end.

With a 30,000 volt polarization in the dielectric the voltage coming out
the end could be substantial.

And that, I'm pretty sure, is what is going on, and all that's going on.
   It's a big microphone, and the energy being harvested is coming from
the sound of the wind.

Forget the atmospheric charge, forget the floating ions, forget the
charge carriers on drops of water mentioned on the page; they're all red
herrings.  Put the whole thing in a nice Faraday cage, which lets the
wind blow through and flex the cable, and I'm quite sure it'll still
work.  (Wrap it in plastic, on the other hand, and you may stiffen it
enough to make it stop generating.)

***

Oh -- but what about that continuous arc eight feet long?  Read the
page carefully -- it's a digest of messages.  The comment near the top
about the arc seems likely to have been a MISquote from something
mentioned later on:

Paul Clint reported to me that he once witnessed an eight feet long arc
during a thunderstorm. A continuous arc or one that is eight feet long
indicates to me that a substantial amount of power was being received.

Note the OR in this more complete quote -- a continuous arc, OR one
that is eight feet.  No hint here that the 8' arc was continuous, and in
fact it sounds like the 8' arc

Re: [Vo]:Public apology to Kyle Mcallister, and a rephrasing of my original comment

Regarding two posts made by Mr. Hollilns:

 Has no one learned?  This entire conversation should be in B.

and

 If its actual politics that has to do with the technology and
 development of the science, thats one thing.

 The moment it extrapolates to world politics, ect, thats taking it a bit far.

 And Jed's response is pretty much, well, I'm taking my ball and going home.

 Sorry if i have no respect for that reaction.

From what I can tell that definitely is not Jed's attitude. Jed
appears to have stated that he will not participate in places where he
believes he is not wanted. That's a far cry form claiming he is taking
his ball and going home. How convenient for you to suddenly acquire
no respect for Jed. I have little respect for those who appear to
imply what others have stated when that is not what they have said.

As for me and my own actions, I felt it was appropriate that I
apologize to Kyle in this news groups after I made an impulsive remark
within vortex-l. Call it Karmic payback. I don't necessarily agree
with certain opnions Kyle has expressed, but at least I understand
better where he is coming from. Such disagreements is also another
issue altogether, and perhaps for another time.

Regarding discussion claiming that Vortex-l should be used exclusively
for scientific discussion might I bring to everyone's attention the
what Mr. Beaty has had to say on the subject out at the Vortex-l
Discussion Group archives:

http://www.eskimo.com/~billb/weird/wvort.html

---
The Vortex-L list was originally created for discussions of
professional research into fluid vortex/cavitation devices which
exhibit anomalous energy effects (ie: the inventions of Schaeffer,
Huffman, Griggs, and Potapov among others.) Currently it has evolved
into a discussion on taboo physics reports and research. SKEPTICS
BEWARE, the topics wander from Cold Fusion, to reports of excess
energy in Free Energy devices, gravity generation and detection,
reports of theoretically impossible phenomena, and all sorts of
supposedly crackpot claims. Before you subscribe, please see the rules
below. This is a public, lightly- moderated smartlist list. There is
no charge, but donations towards expenses are recommended.


and this also:

-
2. NO SNEERING.   Ridicule, derision, scoffing, and ad-hominem is
   banned. Pathological Skepticism is banned (see the link.)  The tone
   here should be one of legitimate disagreement and respectful debate.
   Vortex-L is a big nasty nest of 'true believers' (hopefully having some
   tendency to avoid self-deception,) and skeptics may as well leave in
   disgust.  But if your mind is open and you wish to test crazy claims
   rather than ridiculing them or explaining them away, hop on  board!
---

Unless Mr. Beaty sees fit to change the rules, which is within his
power to do, I believe many vortex-l participants have more-or-less
remained within the rules concerning ...topics wander[ing] from Cold
Fusion, to reports of excess energy in Free Energy devices, gravity
generation and detection, reports of theoretically impossible
phenomena, and all sorts of supposedly crackpot claims.

Of course, Mr. Beaty does not appear to say anything specifically
about the handling of topics concerning Religion or Politics, so it's
understandable that there is heavy disagreement on this issue, and
that a temporary ban has been set in place.

Another reason I am still reluctant to move some of my own [OT]
discussions to VoB is that many participants, particularly individuals
whom I would like to have discussions with, such as Jed, Ed Storms,
Mike Carrell and others, appear to have unsubscribed from VoB. I
suspect their reasons for having unsubscribed was likely similar to
mine, being tired of having to dodge the posts of the grok persona.

In the end I may be forced to resubscribe to [VoB] should Mr. Beaty
continue to make clarifications on these matters. If so, I will likely
endeavor my best to filter out grok's postings because life is too
short, and I don't want to get caught up in useless discussions with
individuals who perceive others (including me) as nothing more than
windmills to slay. I know from past experience that attempting to
filter out individuals I don't care to encounter  is not a very good
solution within a public listgroup.

Regards
Steven Vincent Johnson
www.OrionWorks.com
www.zazzle.com/orionworks

Re: [Vo]:A good bye from Jed for now-this will change, I hope

2009-06-15 Thread Mike Carrell

Alexander  has a crucial fact wrong. Jed did not 'take his ball and go 
home'. Bill Beaty, the list moderator, expelled Jed from the list.


I am pleased with Jed's comments below. It is factual, straightforward, as 
Jed has always been.


Mike Carrell
- Original Message - 
From: Alexander Hollins alexander.holl...@gmail.com

To: vortex-l@eskimo.com
Sent: Sunday, June 14, 2009 11:42 PM
Subject: Re: [Vo]:A good bye from Jed for now-this will change, I hope



If its actual politics that has to do with the technology and
development of the science, thats one thing.

The moment it extrapolates to world politics, ect, thats taking it a bit 
far.


And Jed's response is pretty much, well, I'm taking my ball and going 
home.


Sorry if i have no respect for that reaction.

On Sun, Jun 14, 2009 at 6:01 PM, fznidar...@aol.com wrote:

 Jed, we want you to come back.  I enjoy your posts.  I saw somthing you
would like when I visited the Oak Ridge science mueseum.  I positive 
exhibit
on cold fusion. I will post the text once I such a picture.   I took of 
it

into my computer.   I asked the exhibition manager about it.  He said
several people had asked him to take it down.  I told him to resist them 
and
keep it up.  You worked to make these things happen Jed.  Your efforts 
willl
prove to be of historic proportion.   I've been kicked down many times. 
I

gave up at periods.  I am still in the game,  you need to take a break
from suck it up and then come back.

Frank

Snip...message from Jed


I miss Jed.? I hope he comes back.

That would be up to Bill Beaty. He does not seem anxious to let me back 
in,

and honestly, I am not inclined to go where I am not wanted. I did not
realize that people there are uninterested in the politics of cold 
fusion.

Since that is my main area of expertise, I do not have much else to
contribute, so I don't see much point to rejoining, even if he lets me. I
upload announcement of new papers, but there are not many of them 
anymore.
Most of the literature is out of reach, because of copyright 
restrictions.


It is not important. There is hardly any news about cold fusion in any 
case;

the field is moribund, as it has been for years. You can read about
political events at Krivit's site: http://www.newenergytimes.com/

The only problem with that site is that many people do not want to read 
it,
because Krivit has stepped on people's toes -- many of them deservedly. I 
am
less inclined to do that because, frankly, I don't care what people think 
or
what they are up to (other than experiments). I wouldn't bother stepping 
on
most of the toes Steve stomped. I just want those people to give me 
papers.


You know, when things didn't go his way at Infinite Energy, he never 
came

back.

That is completely incorrect. Gene Mallove got upset with me there 
because I

said unkind things about the Correas. Gene was working closely with them.
See:

http://www.aetherometry.com/Electronic_Publications/Politics_of_Science/Serpents_Tooth/serpent_index.html

Also, at that point I had nothing more to write for the magazine (and I
still don't) and I was busy working on LENR-CANR, mainly OCR work. A few
weeks before he was killed, however, Gene helped fund LENR-CANR, and we 
were
talking about collaborating on other work. He did not hold a grudge for 
long

and neither do I.

After Gene died they asked me to contribute to the magazine, but I told 
them
I am not interested in writing for journals published on paper. The 
audience

is too small. The only way to communicate with the public in the 21st
century is on the Internet, in sites with unrestricted access by anyone.
When the subject is cold fusion, the only way is to give away the
information for free. Unfortunately for authors, people will not pay for 
it.

That's why, for example, the books about cold fusion by Mizuno, Beaudette
and me available at Amazon.com sell a few copies per month, whereas 
people

download hundreds of copies a week of those same book from LENR-CANR.org.

I do not want to participate in the closed group at CMNS because it is
closed to the public. (Also because I do not want to hear any technical
secrets.) My goal is to bring people into the field and educate the 
public,

not to contribute to the closed echo chamber of cold fusion. The skeptics
are right when they say the field is ingrown and cut off from the
mainstream. They are mainly to blame, but people who establish closed
discussion groups are also at fault.

Since I went to the trouble to write all of this, I would appreciate it 
if

you would post it to Vortex. Unless that would get you in trouble with
Beaty. He is someone I thought I knew, but I have sadly misjudged him.

- Jed

Refinance and lower payments online with Ditech. Visit www.ditech.com 
Today!




This Email has been scanned for all viruses by Medford Leas I.T. 
Department.

Re: [Vo]:A good bye from Jed for now-this will change, I hope

If Jed stays away however after he has been let back in and does so despite
knowing he had plenty of support.
Well yes that could be considered worthy of that term, that however has not
happened yet.

Essentially let's sum it up thus, Grok is/was an ass.
He has lead to MR. Beaty drawing a line in the sand which Jed crossed almost
certainly without any intent to do so.

Bill did what he said he would do, he was not wrong to do so but it seemed
to lack compassion and was likely needless except he had said what he would
do.

It is temporary and hopefully Jed and his ball will return soon, Jed has
understandably taken it personally as I did when I was out but really that
wasn't the intent of it.

Ok, so where do we find ourselves?
Not talking about science, instead gossiping endlessly.

The main subject of this list is Free Energy and other alternative and
anomalous physics, let's get back there.

Let's discuss the nature of this, the solutions, lets get back on topic.

On Tue, Jun 16, 2009 at 1:45 AM, Mike Carrell mi...@medleas.com wrote:

Alexander has a crucial fact wrong. Jed did not 'take his ball and go
home'. Bill Beaty, the list moderator, expelled Jed from the list.

I am pleased with Jed's comments below. It is factual, straightforward, as
Jed has always been.

Mike Carrell
- Original Message - From: Alexander Hollins
alexander.holl...@gmail.com
To: vortex-l@eskimo.com
Sent: Sunday, June 14, 2009 11:42 PM
Subject: Re: [Vo]:A good bye from Jed for now-this will change, I hope

If its actual politics that has to do with the technology and
development of the science, thats one thing.

The moment it extrapolates to world politics, ect, thats taking it a bit
far.

And Jed's response is pretty much, well, I'm taking my ball and going
home.

Sorry if i have no respect for that reaction.

On Sun, Jun 14, 2009 at 6:01 PM, fznidar...@aol.com wrote:

Jed, we want you to come back. I enjoy your posts. I saw somthing you
would like when I visited the Oak Ridge science mueseum. I positive
exhibit
on cold fusion. I will post the text once I such a picture. I took of
it
into my computer. I asked the exhibition manager about it. He said
several people had asked him to take it down. I told him to resist them
and
keep it up. You worked to make these things happen Jed. Your efforts
willl
prove to be of historic proportion. I've been kicked down many times. I
gave up at periods. I am still in the game, you need to take a break
from suck it up and then come back.

Frank

Snip...message from Jed

I miss Jed.? I hope he comes back.

That would be up to Bill Beaty. He does not seem anxious to let me back
in,
and honestly, I am not inclined to go where I am not wanted. I did not
realize that people there are uninterested in the politics of cold
fusion.
Since that is my main area of expertise, I do not have much else to
contribute, so I don't see much point to rejoining, even if he lets me. I
upload announcement of new papers, but there are not many of them
anymore.
Most of the literature is out of reach, because of copyright
restrictions.

It is not important. There is hardly any news about cold fusion in any
case;
the field is moribund, as it has been for years. You can read about
political events at Krivit's site: http://www.newenergytimes.com/

The only problem with that site is that many people do not want to read
it,
because Krivit has stepped on people's toes -- many of them deservedly. I
am
less inclined to do that because, frankly, I don't care what people think
or
what they are up to (other than experiments). I wouldn't bother stepping
on
most of the toes Steve stomped. I just want those people to give me
papers.

You know, when things didn't go his way at Infinite Energy, he never
came
back.

That is completely incorrect. Gene Mallove got upset with me there
because I
said unkind things about the Correas. Gene was working closely with them.
See:

http://www.aetherometry.com/Electronic_Publications/Politics_of_Science/Serpents_Tooth/serpent_index.html

Also, at that point I had nothing more to write for the magazine (and I
still don't) and I was busy working on LENR-CANR, mainly OCR work. A few
weeks before he was killed, however, Gene helped fund LENR-CANR, and we
were
talking about collaborating on other work. He did not hold a grudge for
long
and neither do I.

After Gene died they asked me to contribute to the magazine, but I told
them
I am not interested in writing for journals published on paper. The
audience
is too small. The only way to communicate with the public in the 21st
century is on the Internet, in sites with unrestricted access by anyone.
When the subject is cold fusion, the only way is to give away the
information for free. Unfortunately for authors, people will not pay for
it.
That's why, for example, the books about cold fusion by Mizuno, Beaudette
and me available at

Re: [Vo]:A good bye from Jed for now-this will change, I hope

2009-06-15 Thread Alexander Hollins

Considering that the other person banned has already been reinstated
after asking Bill directly and saying he won't do it again, and the
fact that Jed said,

I did not
realize that people there are uninterested in the politics of cold
fusion.
Since that is my main area of expertise, I do not have much else to
contribute, so I don't see much point to rejoining, even if he lets me.

Is him saying, well hell, if you won't let me post politics, im just
not going to post.
That is dead on him saying, I am taking my ball and going home. It is
him saying, well hell, if you expect me to actually follow the RULES,
I'm just not going to be here.

He was not expelled, he was sat down for a time out, and like a 5 year
old that refuses to sit in the corner for 5 minutes and think about
what he did, and say he won't do it again, remaining apart from this
list is HIS choice.

He then, at the end, pokes at Bill Beaty (thought I knew him...)
Becuase Bill did the unthinkable and actually applied the rules to him
same as everyone else. The shock! The Horror!

On Mon, Jun 15, 2009 at 6:45 AM, Mike Carrellmi...@medleas.com wrote:
Alexander has a crucial fact wrong. Jed did not 'take his ball and go
home'. Bill Beaty, the list moderator, expelled Jed from the list.

I am pleased with Jed's comments below. It is factual, straightforward, as
Jed has always been.

If its actual politics that has to do with the technology and
development of the science, thats one thing.

The moment it extrapolates to world politics, ect, thats taking it a bit
far.

And Jed's response is pretty much, well, I'm taking my ball and going
home.

Sorry if i have no respect for that reaction.

On Sun, Jun 14, 2009 at 6:01 PM, fznidar...@aol.com wrote:

Frank

Snip...message from Jed

I miss Jed.? I hope he comes back.

You know, when things didn't go his way at Infinite Energy, he never
came
back.

That is completely incorrect. Gene Mallove got upset with me there
because I
said unkind things about the Correas. Gene was working closely with them.
See:

http://www.aetherometry.com/Electronic_Publications/Politics_of_Science/Serpents_Tooth/serpent_index.html

Re: [Vo]:A good bye from Jed for now-this will change, I hope

Alexander Hollins wrote:

 Can we get back to discussing actual science, pretty pretty please,
 with deuterium on top?


Then, about 8 hours later, Alexander Hollins wrote:
[ ... ]
 Is him[Jed] saying, well hell, if you won't let me post politics, im just
 not going to post.
 That is dead on him saying, I am taking my ball and going home.  It is
 him saying, well hell, if you expect me to actually follow the RULES,
 I'm just not going to be here.
 
 He was not expelled, he was sat down for a time out, and like a 5 year
 old ...

Alexander, please take your own advice and lay off trashing Jed.

He was a valuable member of the list.  He provided a great deal of
information on alternative energy, and a lot of thought provoking ideas.
 His political rants, while they may have occasionally verged on being
tendentious or pertinacious, were often extremely informative.  I
learned a lot from them over the years, from details I hadn't known
about WWII to the nitty gritty real issues with petroleum imports.
Certainly he seriously annoyed a number of people -- well, that's true
of anyone with strong opinions.  Tant pis.  I wouldn't ban Kyle because
he sometimes annoys me, and I certainly wouldn't have banned Jed because
he sometimes annoys other people.

Jed will be sorely missed.

Now, shut up already on the subject of how annoying you found him, and
talk science -- or just sei ruhig.

OK?

[Vo]:On Topic

I have been on vortex for, well not as long as some but I guess, hmmm, might
be over a decade now though, lurking more often than not.

Anyway it seems that on topic posts are kinda rare, especially if you assume
that the topic is not just alternative sources of energy but IMO things the
skeptics would have issues which, physics they would consider impossible,
not just greener forms of energy.

So as I believe it was originally envisioned this meant:
Perpetual Motion (not technical perpetual motion, rather creation of energy)
Energy from unknown sources.
Negative entropy
Cold Fusion
Antigravity
Other anomalous physics.

These subjects have with the exception of cold fusion (thanks to Jed)
composed I believe a minority of posts for a long time now.

Personally my interest is in the aether and I have much evidence for a model
I have developed which explains most everything and roughly how to do almost
anything, but I can not imagine trying to wade into that subject here.

But there is one bit of my research that we could get into, it is a Free
Energy device that is well replicated and has been replicated by a previous
list member, it can be assembled with off the shelf components.
It seems able to produce useful levels of power far greater than the input.
And it also has a secondary quality that proves that something very novel
is occurring.

In theory manufacture of these could be accomplished very realistically.

If anyone is genuinely interested I am happy to expand as time permits.

Also is anyone here genuinely interested in orgne/torsion/aether etc..?
The evidence that it is the very conditioning of space that is key to these
more extraordinary technologies and events (ball lightening for instance) is
overwhelming and they actually with nothing but observation produce an
extremely coherant picture, but in a decade online I have not found really
anyone interested in such.

Re: [Vo]:A good bye from Jed for now-this will change, I hope

From Mr. Hollins:

 Considering that the other person banned has already been
 reinstated after asking Bill directly and saying he won't
 do it again, and the fact that Jed said,

From Jed:
 I did not realize that people there are uninterested in the
 politics of cold fusion.
 Since that is my main area of expertise, I do not have much
 else to contribute, so I don't see much point to rejoining,
 even if he lets me.

 Is him [Jed] saying, well hell, if you won't let me post
 politics, im just not going to post. That is dead on him
 saying, I am taking my ball and going home.  It is him
 saying, well hell, if you expect me to actually follow the RULES,
 I'm just not going to be here.

I believe you are conveniently reinterpreting Jed's comments to craft
your own vision of Jed, implying that he is behaving like a sulking
child for not getting his own way. I think it is inaccurate, extreemly
so. Please also note that Jed stated politics AND cold fusion.
From what I can tell Jed is acknowledging the will of the majority -
if that IS the rule of the majority, which IMO is still under debate.
This is not the actions of, as you appear to be implying, a sulking
child.

 He was not expelled, he was sat down for a time out, and like a
 5 year old that refuses to sit in the corner for 5 minutes and
 think about what he did, and say he won't do it again, remaining
 apart from this list is HIS choice.

 He then, at the end, pokes at Bill Beaty (thought I knew
 him...) Becuase Bill did the unthinkable and actually applied
 the rules to him same as everyone else.  The shock!  The Horror!

As I've stated before, Jed, in my view, has been caught up in Mr.
Beaty's temporary time-out ban due to no fault of his own. It's as if
Jed got caught up in a form of collateral damage as compared to, as
you seem to be claiming, deliberately disobeying Mr. Beaty's rules. I
can not stress enough times that Jed had absolutely nothing to do with
the garbage that ensued when the grok persona arrived on the scene.
You seem to be implying that Jed deliberately and consciously chose to
disobey Mr. Beaty's rules, and as such, deserves his time out and a
measure of discipline.  From what I can tell it probably never crossed
Jed's mind that he was disobeying Mr. Beaty's temporary ban. Why
should Jed have even considered this, since he had nothing to do with
the grok persona and all the garbage this persona helped stir up.
Jed was simply doing what Jed always does: Posting a cold fusion
related topic, which included personal commentary concerning the
politics that are associated with the controversial subject. From what
I can tell Jed prudently avoided all interactions and communications
related to the grok persona. In my view, Jed should not be penalized
nor vilified for posting precisely the same kinds of quality subject
material he has always posted, including cold fusion and the related
politics associated with cold fusion. IMHO, Jed's posts are both
insightful and valuable.

I think it would be a great loss to Vortex-l if Jed decides to make
his enforced temporary band a permanent one.

I hope Jed chooses to stay.


Regards
Steven Vincent Johnson
www.OrionWorks.com
www.zazzle.com/orionworks

Re: [Vo]:A good bye from Jed for now-this will change, I hope



OrionWorks wrote:
[ ... ]
 
 I believe you are conveniently reinterpreting Jed's comments to craft
 your own vision of Jed, implying that he is behaving like a sulking
 child for not getting his own way...

Where is the technical content here?

Encouraging Grok by responding to his messages -- with full quoted text
-- is part of what got us to this state.  You were guilty of that even
after it should have been obvious to you that he was just a troll (yes,
I am pointing my finger right at you, Steve).  Now you and Alexander
have gone totally off topic and you are continuing to drag out the
discussion with psychoanalysis of Jed and Alex worthy of any livingroom
shrink.

That doesn't belong here.

Enough already.

As I said to Alexander, shut up already on the subject of Jed's psyche,
and talk science -- or just sei ruhig.

OK?

Re: [Vo]:A good bye from Jed for now-this will change, I hope

2009-06-15 Thread Alexander Hollins

Im just saying, lets not martyrize him.  and, if someone personally
responds to me, even if its in such as way as to speak about me as if
i wasn't persent, I'm going to respond.

and, there is still a place for his political rants, on VoB. whether
he does so or not, is up to him.  and im not annoyed with him over his
political speech, im annoyed about this current kerfluffle.

and with that said, i am now bowing out of this topic completely.  If
anyone wishes to discuss my opinions further with me, may i suggest
emailing me directly?
On Mon, Jun 15, 2009 at 7:23 AM, Stephen A. Lawrencesa...@pobox.com wrote:
 Alexander Hollins wrote:

 Can we get back to discussing actual science, pretty pretty please,
 with deuterium on top?


 Then, about 8 hours later, Alexander Hollins wrote:
 [ ... ]
 Is him[Jed] saying, well hell, if you won't let me post politics, im just
 not going to post.
 That is dead on him saying, I am taking my ball and going home.  It is
 him saying, well hell, if you expect me to actually follow the RULES,
 I'm just not going to be here.

 He was not expelled, he was sat down for a time out, and like a 5 year
 old ...

 Alexander, please take your own advice and lay off trashing Jed.

 He was a valuable member of the list.  He provided a great deal of
 information on alternative energy, and a lot of thought provoking ideas.
  His political rants, while they may have occasionally verged on being
 tendentious or pertinacious, were often extremely informative.  I
 learned a lot from them over the years, from details I hadn't known
 about WWII to the nitty gritty real issues with petroleum imports.
 Certainly he seriously annoyed a number of people -- well, that's true
 of anyone with strong opinions.  Tant pis.  I wouldn't ban Kyle because
 he sometimes annoys me, and I certainly wouldn't have banned Jed because
 he sometimes annoys other people.

 Jed will be sorely missed.

 Now, shut up already on the subject of how annoying you found him, and
 talk science -- or just sei ruhig.

 OK?

Re: [Vo]:On Topic



John Berry wrote:
 I have been on vortex for, well not as long as some but I guess, hmmm,
 might be over a decade now though, lurking more often than not.
 
 Anyway it seems that on topic posts are kinda rare, especially if you
 assume that the topic is not just alternative sources of energy but IMO
 things the skeptics would have issues which, physics they would
 consider impossible, not just greener forms of energy.
 
 So as I believe it was originally envisioned this meant:
 Perpetual Motion (not technical perpetual motion, rather creation of energy)
 Energy from unknown sources.
 Negative entropy
 Cold Fusion
 Antigravity
 Other anomalous physics.
 
 These subjects have with the exception of cold fusion (thanks to Jed)
 composed I believe a minority of posts for a long time now.
 
 Personally my interest is in the aether and I have much evidence for a
 model I have developed which explains most everything and roughly how to
 do almost anything, but I can not imagine trying to wade into that
 subject here.
 
 But there is one bit of my research that we could get into, it is a Free
 Energy device that is well replicated and has been replicated by a
 previous list member, it can be assembled with off the shelf components.
 It seems able to produce useful levels of power far greater than the input.
 And it also has a secondary quality that proves that something very
 novel is occurring.
 
 In theory manufacture of these could be accomplished very realistically.
 
 If anyone is genuinely interested I am happy to expand as time permits.

Sure, I'd be very interested, and I imagine a lot of other folks would
be, too.

Of course, if it's a replicated free energy device then the first
question to ask is whether the loop has been closed, and the next
question may very well be why not? and there should be a good answer
to that if the thing is to be interesting.

(But if you post details I will also be happy to post a theoretical
deconstruction, if it seems appropriate; just so you know... and if it's
a magmo you'd better have something more convincing than a lost
videotape to support the claim that it works! (cf SMOT))

 
 Also is anyone here genuinely interested in orgne

Orgone?  Interesting to read about but my suspension of disbelief gets
strained if I try to think about it too much.


 /torsion

Dunno, not sure what it is.  You mean torsion gravity?


 /aether

Sure, if your theory predicts the null result observed in the MM
experiments *and* predicts the exact fringe shift observed in the Sagnac
experiments, *and* if it actually produces predictions which differ from
LET somewhere down the line.

Proposing an aether theory which doesn't meet these requirements does
seem a little like an attempt at an attempt at resurrecting the
phlogiston theory.

OTOH if the math is identical to LET, which is mathematically identical
to SR, then the interest level is a bit reduced, as the aether becomes
an undetectable ghost in that case which must be taken on faith.


 etc..?

etc is always good.


 The evidence that it is the very conditioning of space that is key to
 these more extraordinary technologies and events (ball lightening for
 instance)

Isn't there a reasonably coherent explanation of ball lightning in the
mainstream literature at this point?  I thought I read somewhere that
there is, with some experimental results to back it up.  But I'm not
sure, need to go digging, if it ever becomes and issue.


 is overwhelming and they actually with nothing but observation
 produce an extremely coherant picture, but in a decade online I have not
 found really anyone interested in such.

Re: [Vo]:On Topic

2009-06-15 Thread Alexander Hollins

I am very interested in aethor theories,  as well as a replicatable
free energy device.  I would be a great test, if i can build it,
anyone can!  heh.

On Mon, Jun 15, 2009 at 7:44 AM, John Berryaethe...@gmail.com wrote:
 I have been on vortex for, well not as long as some but I guess, hmmm, might
 be over a decade now though, lurking more often than not.

 Anyway it seems that on topic posts are kinda rare, especially if you assume
 that the topic is not just alternative sources of energy but IMO things the
 skeptics would have issues which, physics they would consider impossible,
 not just greener forms of energy.

 So as I believe it was originally envisioned this meant:
 Perpetual Motion (not technical perpetual motion, rather creation of energy)
 Energy from unknown sources.
 Negative entropy
 Cold Fusion
 Antigravity
 Other anomalous physics.

 These subjects have with the exception of cold fusion (thanks to Jed)
 composed I believe a minority of posts for a long time now.

 Personally my interest is in the aether and I have much evidence for a model
 I have developed which explains most everything and roughly how to do almost
 anything, but I can not imagine trying to wade into that subject here.

 But there is one bit of my research that we could get into, it is a Free
 Energy device that is well replicated and has been replicated by a previous
 list member, it can be assembled with off the shelf components.
 It seems able to produce useful levels of power far greater than the input.
 And it also has a secondary quality that proves that something very novel
 is occurring.

 In theory manufacture of these could be accomplished very realistically.

 If anyone is genuinely interested I am happy to expand as time permits.

 Also is anyone here genuinely interested in orgne/torsion/aether etc..?
 The evidence that it is the very conditioning of space that is key to these
 more extraordinary technologies and events (ball lightening for instance) is
 overwhelming and they actually with nothing but observation produce an
 extremely coherant picture, but in a decade online I have not found really
 anyone interested in such.

Re: [Vo]:A good bye from Jed for now-this will change, I hope

From Stephen Lawrence

 OrionWorks wrote:
[ ... ]

 I believe you are conveniently reinterpreting Jed's comments
 to craft your own vision of Jed, implying that he is behaving
 like a sulking child for not getting his own way...

 Where is the technical content here?

 Encouraging Grok by responding to his messages -- with full
 quoted text -- is part of what got us to this state.  You were
 guilty of that even after it should have been obvious to you
 that he was just a troll (yes, I am pointing my finger right at
 you, Steve).  Now you and Alexander have gone totally off topic
 and you are continuing to drag out the discussion with
 psychoanalysis of Jed and Alex worthy of any livingroom
 shrink.

 That doesn't belong here.

 Enough already.

 As I said to Alexander, shut up already on the subject of
 Jed's psyche, and talk science -- or just sei ruhig.

 OK?

Finger away, Stephen.

Yes, it is true that I am guilty of occasionally playing the role of a
living room shrink. I am also guilty of having attempted to
communicate with the grok persona longer than perhaps what many
would have considered a wise course of action. If these are my sins, I
can live with them.

BTW, I seem to recall that once you yourself attempted to perform a
thorough analysis of the grok persona. It was quite thorough, and
pretty accurate if I might say so. Needless to say, the grok persona
did not take your analysis very well. Nevertheless, I think it is in
my right to bring up the age-old saying: Let he who is free from
guilt cast the first stone.

In deference to the fact that tempers seem to be getting hotter I
shall attempt to refrain from further discussion, or psycho-analysis
on this matter. It is not my intention to add more fuel to the fire.

Regards
Steven Vincent Johnson
www.OrionWorks.com
www.zazzle.com/orionworks

Re: [Vo]:A good bye from Jed for now-this will change, I hope



OrionWorks wrote:
From Stephen Lawrence
 
 OrionWorks wrote:

 BTW, I seem to recall that once you yourself attempted to perform a
 thorough analysis of the grok persona.

Right.  On 2/24, about four months before the big blowup, I replied to
one of Grok's posts with such an analysis.  And at the end of my post I
plonked him, publicly.

As you may also recall.

And I never replied directly to any of his posts after that.  Had
everyone else emulated that behavior the results would have been different.

Of course, avoiding seeing what he wrote remained impractical, as others
continued to quote him at length, and I did post one additional message
*about* Grok, on 4/10, in which I tried to paint him for what he was.
This was partly in the hope that others would see him more clearly and
stop trying to debate with him.  Fat lot of good it did, eh?

And of course, as you may also recall, I replied to *you* on 6/6, with
another attempt at explaining why interacting with trolls in general,
and Grok in particular, is not useful.  Again, it didn't seem to make
much impression.

Please remember the past, it may help with avoiding the same mistakes in
the future.

Ca suffit, at least for me.

[Vo]:Some follow-up comments concerning Mr. Beaty's thoughts on religion and politics within Vortex-l

I hope Mr. Beaty has not taken offense to the fact that I have often
described him as the Virtual God of Vortex-l - the Vort Collective or
Continuum. No offence was intended.

It can be a difficult job playing the role of a Moderator. So many
different opinions can be expressed. Opinions and discussions can
occasionally get heated. A Moderator is occasionally obliged to,
whether he wants to or not, make a judgment call as to whether certain
topics are appropriate subject material - or not. Invariably, some
participants will agree wholeheartedly with the Moderator's
choice-of-action, while others will beg to differ and thus begin the
process of picking away at certain technicalities. I know I am guilty
of having performed some of that picking. But such is the cross for
which Mr. Beaty, the Virtual God of Vortex-l must bare.

I am encouraged to hear that Mr. Beaty appears to consider the recent
illness something akin to a temporary fever, one that he hopes will
eventually be capable of once again self-regulating itself. If that is
Mr. Beaty's opinion, it is a hope and belief I share as well.

If it had not been for he-who-shall-remain-nameless, I seriously doubt
the current illness would have reached temperatures that caused so
many to begin complaining. Least I seem to be implying that I was
above the fray, I wish to state for the record that I'm sure I played
a role in causing that fever to break out.

How long a ban on discussions pertaining to politics  religion (a
quarantine) might be necessary within Vortex-l does not appear to have
been defined. I hope Mr. Beaty will be able to clarify that point so
that we can adjust our actions accordingly.

warning: INCOMING PERSONAL PLUG 

I also hope that Jed's temporary ban is a short one.

/warning: INCOMING PERSONAL PLUG

I hope others might consider expressing a few of their thoughts on the
proper care and feeding of the Vort Collective, or at least help give
Mr. Beaty some useful feedback.

Regards
Steven Vincent Johnson
www.OrionWorks.com
www.zazzle.com/orionworks

Re: [Vo]:Politics and 'politics'....

2009-06-15 Thread Edmund Storms

I agree with the view expressed here by Lawrence. In addition, this is  
a group of individuals who like to get to know each other while they  
discussion the scientific ideas. This social interaction is important  
and I would like to have it accepted as a normal part of these  
communications. Of course, once a person has been identified as not  
using this interaction for the intended purpose, i.e. being a troll,  
such interaction should be immediately stopped here and continued in  
private, if that is necessary.  Also, a little political and/or  
religious discussion helps spice up the exchange if it is done without  
personal attack while providing unique information about the  
subjects.  The people on this site have some important ideas that I  
have enjoyed learning. I would hate to see this stopped completely  
just because certain rules must be followed exactly.


Ed



On Jun 15, 2009, at 12:23 PM, Lawrence de Bivort wrote:

It seems to me that there are, for our purposes here, two very  
different

politics.

There is political commentary dealing with the world at large.  
Sometimes it

is informed commentary, sometimes it is rant, and sometimes it is mere
labeling and insult.

And then there is the 'politics' of CF, or other technologies/science.

If CF has been preoccupied over the last 20 years with anything, it  
is the

political dimension of how it recovers from a false linguistic and
professional start, how it reestablishes itself within the normal  
world of
science, how it finds funding and manages its overall evolution, how  
it
attracts additional scientists and labs, and how it presents itself  
to the

functions of governance, venture capital, and the general public.

I would guess that the CF community here in Vortex-l would like to  
be able
to discuss the political aspects of CF per se, and I would like to  
seek

clarification of this from William Beaty.

Is my interpretation of what is and what is not acceptable here,  
correct?


Regards to all,

Lawrence

[Vo]:Politics and 'politics'....

2009-06-15 Thread Lawrence de Bivort

It seems to me that there are, for our purposes here, two very different
politics.

There is political commentary dealing with the world at large. Sometimes it
is informed commentary, sometimes it is rant, and sometimes it is mere
labeling and insult.

And then there is the 'politics' of CF, or other technologies/science.

If CF has been preoccupied over the last 20 years with anything, it is the
political dimension of how it recovers from a false linguistic and
professional start, how it reestablishes itself within the normal world of
science, how it finds funding and manages its overall evolution, how it
attracts additional scientists and labs, and how it presents itself to the
functions of governance, venture capital, and the general public.

I would guess that the CF community here in Vortex-l would like to be able
to discuss the political aspects of CF per se, and I would like to seek
clarification of this from William Beaty.

Is my interpretation of what is and what is not acceptable here, correct?

Regards to all,

Lawrence

[Vo]:Calcium - sodium serendipity?

2009-06-15 Thread Horace Heffner

This is just an observation that may or may not be serendipitous, but  
striking enough to me to document it.


This morning I thought my electric coffee pot was malfunctioning. It  
was very loud and quite disconcerting for a while until I figured out  
what was happening.  It was cavitating loudly, far more loudly than  
usual, so I had the impression the heating filament might have  
shorted partially or something and thus be producing a lot more heat  
than usual.  I opened the top and looked in and saw nothing unusual,  
except an atypical slight coating of scale on part of the bottom.  I  
expected to see a lot of bubbling, but there were no significant  
bubbles.  The pot did seem to finish heating rapidly too (it has a  
thermostatic cut-off).


The salt in my water softener ran out recently, so I've had hard  
water for a day or two. The water here is very hard in calcium, but  
has very little iron.  It scales up coffee pots, silverware and  
dishes very quickly.   I replaced the salt yesterday so I am now back  
to normal softened water, which has some sodium chloride content, but  
almost no calcium.  I figure the unusual cavitation is due to the  
action of the salt water (or possibly just the water) on the heated  
calcium scale. Perhaps it is just due to the microscopically rough  
surface the calcified stainless steel provides - providing many  
bubble nucleation sites. Or ... perhaps there is something  
extraordinary going on energetically at the calcium-sodium-water  
interface.


This experience reminds me of the various conjectures, centered on  
the differences in the water, regarding why the Potapov cavitation  
device worked in Russia but not when taken to LANL for evaluation.  
LANL supplied pure water was used in the LANL test.  Too bad Potopov  
didn't bring his own water for the test (which was not pure, but his  
local water.)  Perhaps calcium, or at least some calcium salt or  
microscopic scale flakes, play a key role in nucleating and even  
catalyzing energetic hydrogen reactions.  Such a hypothesis no longer  
seems to me so far fetched now there is evidence that CaO layers  
within a Pd matrix can produce heavy nucleus transmutations when in  
the presence of diffusing hydrogen.


It may also be of interest that calcium oxide (or calcium hydroxide)  
can be purchased at Wal-Mart under the name of Pickling Lime.  The  
brand they carried last I bought some was Ball.  Note - CaO added  
to water produces calcium hydroxide, Ca(OH)2.  Hard water scale is  
typically calcium carbonate, which can be deposited artificially by  
use of sodium bicarbonate (baking soda).  Scale forms when a   
saturated calcium carbonate solution is heated - which is why it  
forms in hot water heaters. A possible way to precipitate (I haven't  
tried this) carbonate flakes in solution is to add lime to a baking  
soda solution. Fine carbonate flakes in solution might provide an  
interesting nucleating medium for multi-bubble sonoluminescence  
experiments.   Just free associating a bit here.



Best regards,

Horace Heffner
http://www.mtaonline.net/~hheffner/

[Vo]:'Bye, all

I'm outta here.  It's been real.  It was fun, but lately it's taking too
much time and resulting in too much bad karma for the amount of
information gained.

If I've got time in my hands in a while I may check the archives and if
it looks interesting I'll resubscribe, but for now, I can use the time
better elsewhere.

Keep the faith...

RE: [Vo]:Calcium - sodium serendipity?

2009-06-15 Thread Rick Monteverde

 
Horace -

Free association^2 ... Some theories hold that some of the tiny calcium
particles in some water supplies are formed by nanobacteria. Water with
special properties (healing, etc.), for instance Arkansas hot springs
water, have a high concentration of these organisms(?). Don't know if the
organic and inorganic forms would be different in regards to your morning
overunity cuppa, but they do look very different in their surface
appearance. Maybe the old Beer commercial was right: It's the water.

Video of nanobacteria being rudely awakened when their shells dissolve, and
a comparison with inorganic calcium phosphate crystals:

 http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=PXO58edpIU8


- Rick


 -Original Message-
 From: Horace Heffner [mailto:hheff...@mtaonline.net] 
 Sent: Monday, June 15, 2009 8:54 AM
 To: Vortex-L
 Subject: [Vo]:Calcium - sodium serendipity?
 
 This is just an observation that may or may not be 
 serendipitous, but striking enough to me to document it.
 
 This morning I thought my electric coffee pot was 
 malfunctioning.

Re: [Vo]:Th e SNIP of Jed.


--- On Sun, 6/14/09, Mike Carrell mi...@medleas.com wrote:

 Kyle sees snapshots of Jed as a cruel and arrogant person
 -- in fact he drives a cheap car. 

Prius is not cheap. $1000 Buick is cheap.

 What Kyle does not see is
 Jed's acute and passionate awareness of the millions in
 developing nations whose lot would be vastly improved if
 only CF propagated throughout mankind. 

You don't see a whole hell of a lot of me either, I'm afraid. If you did, maybe 
you would think somewhat differently. Or not. Who is to say?

 This drives him to
 nag the investigators, attend the international conferences,
 travel to important lectures and demonstrations, wite a
 book, support a website that has reached 1,400,000 people
 worlwide -- all at his expense. ***Jed does what he *can* to
 advnace the cause of CF***

I had no issue with any of this, as I said before, if you will actually read 
what I posted. I explained my position very thoroughly.
 
 Kyle, I think you need to apologize to Jed, or at least to
 try to understand were he is coming from. How have you
 advanced the cause of CF?

There is no 'try to understand' of many of the caustic things he's said about 
workers and the average man. Now everyone is going to try and candy coat 
things. I'm sorry, try someone else, this is not going to gloss over what has 
been posted and IS IN THE ARCHIVES.

I haven't done anything to advance CF that I know of, and as far as I can see, 
there is no cause to advance. The thing is roughly as dead as it was years ago, 
and still no one can heat a cup of tea for someone. There are other things to 
be done to benefit humanity, this is not the save all and end all of everything.

Where have _you_ been when I suggested things to look into as far as scientific 
research goes?

--Kyle

Re: [Vo]:Jed's temporary ban...

--- On Mon, 6/15/09, Stephen A. Lawrence sa...@pobox.com wrote:

 From: Stephen A. Lawrence sa...@pobox.com
 Subject: Re: [Vo]:Jed's temporary ban...
 To: vortex-l@eskimo.com
 Date: Monday, June 15, 2009, 8:22 AM

 Interesting page.  Here are some comments (yes,
 they're just theory, I
 don't have a 30K DC supply to start with and I'm not
 getting one to test
 this):

 -- It should work, but don't plan to disconnect from Edison
 just yet,
 because it's probably not going to produce much power.

Heh heh, I know. It's just something to try. Sometimes a surprise awaits the 
experimenter.

 -- A careful reading of the page indicates to me that the
 page author
 hasn't got a clue what the thing actually does, nor why it
 produces
 volts.  Take my word for it or don't, I'm not going to
 pick apart the
 details here.

Again, I'm less interested in the theory behind it that he presents (which is 
kind of whacky), and more into the experimental apparatus itself. It's worth 
trying if only for its simplicity and cheapness.

 -- Coax, when carrying a static charge (*not* acting as a
 wave guide),
 is just a rolled up parallel plate capacitor.  Keep
 that in mind, it
 helps with understanding the thing.

I know that. Coax cables are sometimes used in pulse forming networks. I'm just 
speculating that there might be something oddball going on here.

 -- The setup procedure with the oven and the 30K supply
 puts a permanent
 *polarization* on the dielectric, NOT a permanent
 *charge*.  

I guess what he was wanting to do, for whatever reason, was make the coax into 
an electret or something similar. I've made and played with electrets before, 
fun little gizmos. Used carnauba wax and rosin, with a little beeswax added to 
keep it somewhat less brittle. 

 Now let's look at that cable again.  It's been abused
 -- it's been
 cooked and chilled, and its plastic sheath has been
 stripped off.  It's
 probably not all that tightly bound together any
 more.  So, as it flexes
 in the wind, and particularly as it vibrates, you'll get
 some variation
 in the radius; the distance from the shield to the central
 conductor
 will vary somewhat chaotically at various places along the
 cable as it
 wiggles.  And when that happens, because of the
 polarization of the
 dielectric, you'll get current flowing to the places where
 the
 dielectric is compressed, and away from places where it's
 stretched a
 bit or the shield is separating from the dielectric, and
 overall you'll
 see a random AC voltage coming out the end.

 With a 30,000 volt polarization in the dielectric the
 voltage coming out
 the end could be substantial.

 And that, I'm pretty sure, is what is going on, and all
 that's going on.
    It's a big microphone, and the energy
 being harvested is coming from
 the sound of the wind.

If that's it, it isn't that useful. Though for some reason, this is sounding 
interesting enough to do on its own. Maybe one could use it to charge a cap and 
run a tiny beacon transmitter for...well...for no good reason other than to do 
it.

 Note the OR in this more complete quote -- a continuous
 arc, OR one
 that is eight feet.  No hint here that the 8' arc was
 continuous, and in
 fact it sounds like the 8' arc occurred when something
 nearby was hit
 with lightning (could also have been a brush discharge, of
 course, which
 could be called continuous).  Well, yeah, you can
 see stuff like that
 when there's a lightning strike, but I wouldn't depend on
 it to power my
 house.
 And, of course, you've also got the usual confusion between
 voltage,
 energy, and power -- an 8' arc indicates there were a
 wicked lot of
 volts.  How much *power* was it, averaged over some
 reasonable period of
 time?  Can't say.  If it was a single flash, then
 maybe not much.  If it
 was a brush discharge, then once again, probably not much.

What do you want from a page that has in its title the word Diatribe? :)

The 'collector supply' for the thing is built. It looks really stupid, but that 
makes it fun. Now I have to find my coax that I thought I knew right where it 
was...or pilfer some from someone.

--Kyle

Re: [Vo]:On Topic


--- On Mon, 6/15/09, John Berry aethe...@gmail.com wrote:

 Personally my interest is in the aether and I have much
 evidence for a model I have developed which explains most
 everything and roughly how to do almost anything, but I can
 not imagine trying to wade into that subject here.

I've had an interest in some sort of ether theory to explain the (generally 
swept under the rug) superluminal effects that are observed in nature.

Stephen Lawrence suggested that a viable ether theory must explain the 
Michelson-Morley experiment, Sagnac, etc., and be different than LET, which 
uses the same basic transformation equations as SR.

There is a different formulation of transforms, as per Tangherlini and Selleri, 
which give the same results up to c as does SR. Where they differ is in a 
regime extending beyond c. Here, SR pulls a freak out, and we've got things 
violating causality, being able to arrive back before they left, and so on. 
With these different transforms, you don't get into this trouble, causality is 
preserved. Unfortunately (or fortunately) relativity of simultaneity is lost. 
But you can't measure it anyways, unless you have something that can exceed c, 
which by definition in SR, you can't do. So there is no truly compelling reason 
to believe it exists in lieu of something else.
 
 But there is one bit of my research that we could get into,
 it is a Free Energy device that is well replicated and has
 been replicated by a previous list member, it can be
 assembled with off the shelf components.
 
 It seems able to produce useful levels of power far greater
 than the input.
 
 And it also has a secondary quality that proves
 that something very novel is occurring.
 
 In theory manufacture of these could be accomplished very
 realistically.
 
 If anyone is genuinely interested I am happy to expand as
 time permits.

I'm very interested. Speak on, speak on.

 Also is anyone here genuinely interested in
 orgne/torsion/aether etc..?
 The evidence that it is the very conditioning of space that
 is key to these more extraordinary technologies and events
 (ball lightening for instance) is overwhelming and they
 actually with nothing but observation produce an extremely
 coherant picture, but in a decade online I have not found
 really anyone interested in such.

I don't know anything about orgone or what it is supposed to be. As to torsion, 
are you referring to the stuff Alexander Shpilman and co. were doing? Weren't 
they exposed as frauds? If there is experimental evidence of such a thing as 
these torsion fields, let me know. If there's experiments to be done, let me 
know!

I'm not sure exactly how you're tying ball lightning into this. Care to expand 
on this?

--Kyle

Re: [Vo]:Th e SNIP of Jed.

2009-06-15 Thread Edmund Storms



On Jun 15, 2009, at 3:45 PM, Kyle Mcallister wrote:



--- On Sun, 6/14/09, Mike Carrell mi...@medleas.com wrote:





There is no 'try to understand' of many of the caustic things he's  
said about workers and the average man. Now everyone is going to try  
and candy coat things. I'm sorry, try someone else, this is not  
going to gloss over what has been posted and IS IN THE ARCHIVES.


I haven't done anything to advance CF that I know of, and as far as  
I can see, there is no cause to advance. The thing is roughly as  
dead as it was years ago, and still no one can heat a cup of tea for  
someone. There are other things to be done to benefit humanity, this  
is not the save all and end all of everything.


Where have _you_ been when I suggested things to look into as far as  
scientific research goes?


Kyle, in the absence of Jed, I feel it's my duty to educate about cold  
fusion. If you want to know what has been learned up to 2007, I  
suggest you read my book The Science of Low Energy Nuclear Reaction.  
If you want to learn what is going on now, I suggest you go to www.  
LENR.org.  The field is growing rapidly and the effect is getting much  
more reproducible. In addition, money is actually going into the  
efforts from private sources.  Active discussion about the subject has  
moved to the CMNS discussion group where you would discover a lively  
interest not handicapped by trolls.  So when you say, The thing is  
roughly as dead as it was years ago, you are not up to date.


Ed


--Kyle

Re: [Vo]:On Topic

On Tue, Jun 16, 2009 at 3:36 AM, Stephen A. Lawrence sa...@pobox.comwrote:



 John Berry wrote:
  I have been on vortex for, well not as long as some but I guess, hmmm,
  might be over a decade now though, lurking more often than not.
 
  Anyway it seems that on topic posts are kinda rare, especially if you
  assume that the topic is not just alternative sources of energy but IMO
  things the skeptics would have issues which, physics they would
  consider impossible, not just greener forms of energy.
 
  So as I believe it was originally envisioned this meant:
  Perpetual Motion (not technical perpetual motion, rather creation of
 energy)
  Energy from unknown sources.
  Negative entropy
  Cold Fusion
  Antigravity
  Other anomalous physics.
 
  These subjects have with the exception of cold fusion (thanks to Jed)
  composed I believe a minority of posts for a long time now.
 
  Personally my interest is in the aether and I have much evidence for a
  model I have developed which explains most everything and roughly how to
  do almost anything, but I can not imagine trying to wade into that
  subject here.
 
  But there is one bit of my research that we could get into, it is a Free
  Energy device that is well replicated and has been replicated by a
  previous list member, it can be assembled with off the shelf components.
  It seems able to produce useful levels of power far greater than the
 input.
  And it also has a secondary quality that proves that something very
  novel is occurring.
 
  In theory manufacture of these could be accomplished very realistically.
 
  If anyone is genuinely interested I am happy to expand as time permits.

 Sure, I'd be very interested, and I imagine a lot of other folks would
 be, too.

 Of course, if it's a replicated free energy device then the first
 question to ask is whether the loop has been closed, and the next
 question may very well be why not? and there should be a good answer
 to that if the thing is to be interesting.


Closing the loop is extremely important for a demo, and you know what I
believe the loop was closed by one who worked on this effect.

 But I am not demonstrating a ready to go free energy machine, rather I am
offering up an avenue for research.




 (But if you post details I will also be happy to post a theoretical
 deconstruction, if it seems appropriate; just so you know... and if it's
 a magmo you'd better have something more convincing than a lost
 videotape to support the claim that it works! (cf SMOT))

 
  Also is anyone here genuinely interested in orgne

 Orgone?  Interesting to read about but my suspension of disbelief gets
 strained if I try to think about it too much.


While that was my opinion too a long time ago and indeed I hated the concept
of a new agey sounding aether the reality of all of this is something I
can't deny, however I have no will to try and convince someone of something
they would be strained to accept, at least not with words and not yet.




  /torsion

 Dunno, not sure what it is.  You mean torsion gravity?


No




  /aether

 Sure, if your theory predicts the null result observed in the MM
 experiments *and* predicts the exact fringe shift observed in the Sagnac
 experiments, *and* if it actually produces predictions which differ from
 LET somewhere down the line.


While I have not studied Sagnac the answer to the rest is yes, but really
it's not a theory it is an observation, and somewhat pure reductive logic.

I have no interest in discussion for an aether model on theoretical grounds
as that is just a waste of time, rather I am interested in sharing an
understanding of how some extraordinary things can be made possible
preferably incorporated into experiments.



 Proposing an aether theory which doesn't meet these requirements does
 seem a little like an attempt at an attempt at resurrecting the
 phlogiston theory.

 OTOH if the math is identical to LET, which is mathematically identical
 to SR, then the interest level is a bit reduced, as the aether becomes
 an undetectable ghost in that case which must be taken on faith.


There isn't even any math, actually the only way I might be interested in
communicating it would be if someone could figure out the math.



  etc..?

 etc is always good.


  The evidence that it is the very conditioning of space that is key to
  these more extraordinary technologies and events (ball lightening for
  instance)

 Isn't there a reasonably coherent explanation of ball lightning in the
 mainstream literature at this point?


IMO no, not given some of the more interesting observed effects.

 I thought I read somewhere that
 there is, with some experimental results to back it up.  But I'm not
 sure, need to go digging, if it ever becomes and issue.


  is overwhelming and they actually with nothing but observation
  produce an extremely coherant picture, but in a decade online I have not
  found really anyone interested in such.


Ok, on to the main subject on

Re: [Vo]:On Topic

2009-06-15 Thread Chris Zell

OK, I'm interested in the anomalies you mentioned, particularly the 
conditioning of space.
The whole no ether thing never made sense to me because the characteristic 
impedance of space is about 328 ohms and is a real factor in antenna design..
 
No Ether?  What's impeding the RF?  
 
I think charge clusters need much more attention than they've been given.
 
Did Laithwaite really make a spinning device that weighed less while being 
lifted in a 30 degree spiral?  Sounds very Schaubergerish to me.  
 
Sorry for rambling

Re: [Vo]:Th e SNIP of Jed.


--- On Mon, 6/15/09, Edmund Storms stor...@ix.netcom.com wrote:

 Kyle, in the absence of Jed, I feel it's my duty to educate
 about cold fusion. If you want to know what has been learned
 up to 2007, I suggest you read my book The Science of Low
 Energy Nuclear Reaction. If you want to learn what is going
 on now, I suggest you go to www. LENR.org. 

Alright, I will put your book on my reading list. It will take some time, 
however, as I already promised Jed I will read his book. But I will get to it.

 The field
 is growing rapidly and the effect is getting much more
 reproducible. In addition, money is actually going into the
 efforts from private sources.  

This is good to hear. If there is something actually going on, more power to it 
then.

 Active discussion about
 the subject has moved to the CMNS discussion group where you
 would discover a lively interest not handicapped by
 trolls.  So when you say, The thing is roughly as dead
 as it was years ago, you are not up to date.

What is CMNS?

--Kyle

Re: [Vo]:On Topic

--- On Mon, 6/15/09, Chris Zell chrisrz...@yahoo.com wrote:

 From: Chris Zell chrisrz...@yahoo.com
 Subject: Re: [Vo]:On Topic
 To: vortex-l@eskimo.com
 Date: Monday, June 15, 2009, 7:15 PM
 OK, I'm interested in the
 anomalies you mentioned, particularly the conditioning of
 space.
 The whole no ether thing never made sense to me
 because the characteristic impedance of space is about 328
 ohms and is a real factor in antenna design.

 No Ether?  What's impeding the RF? 

My question as well. If empty space is just that, what determines G, e0, u0, 
Z0, and all those other nice little things that cause 'empty' space to factor 
in as far less than empty when trying to radiate energy into it. What is 
'carrying' a magnetic field? If space can curve, as the current interpretation 
of General Relativity says it does, what is curving?

 Did Laithwaite really make a spinning device that
 weighed less while being lifted in a 30 degree spiral? 
 Sounds very Schaubergerish to me.  

As far as I know, no he didn't. He does suggest some interesting experiments, 
and a thought provoking similarity between electromagnetism and the actions of 
spinning flywheels. He suggested that the rotation of a flywheel may have a 
sort or relation to what we call inductance. That is, a resistor obeys Ohm's 
law just fine; add an inductor and use AC, things get strange, until you extend 
the theory a bit more. He suggests that straight line motion and acceleration 
is 'resistive', where rotational motion is 'inductive.'

If you build a large, fast flywheel, and play around with it in many different 
ways, you start to get confused by it. The conventional math works for the most 
part, but there is a feeling of something more to it than just that. Laithwaite 
was condemned for chasing it.

--Kyle

Re: [Vo]:Ban religion/politics permanently?

2009-06-15 Thread John Fields

On Sun, 14 Jun 2009 20:58:42 -0700 (PDT), you wrote:


I see that Vortex has acquired the religion/politics illness that affects
most forums.  Or call it poor health, where natural defenses begin to
fail, and opportunistic infections start appearing.

---
Indeed.
---

We could ban politics permanently.  Or temporarily limit the topics to CF
and nothing else.  Or as a last resort, shut down the forum for awhile.
But first I'm using the trick which has worked in the past:  kill it off
artificially.  Stamp out every last vestige, then wait awhile to make
certain it's gone.  If it slowly grows back much later, the forum's own
immune system might keep it at a very low level.

---
The antibiotic strategy?

IMO, Excellent! :-) 

Especially since you've set up b as an agar dish where we can watch
not only bacterial but also viral infections plead their cases.

JF

Re: [Vo]:On Topic

Note, a post detailing the effect/device is coming, might take a bit before
it's complete...

On Tue, Jun 16, 2009 at 12:31 PM, Kyle Mcallister kyle_mcallis...@yahoo.com
 wrote:


 --- On Mon, 6/15/09, Chris Zell chrisrz...@yahoo.com wrote:

  From: Chris Zell chrisrz...@yahoo.com
  Subject: Re: [Vo]:On Topic
  To: vortex-l@eskimo.com
  Date: Monday, June 15, 2009, 7:15 PM
  OK, I'm interested in the
  anomalies you mentioned, particularly the conditioning of
  space.
  The whole no ether thing never made sense to me
  because the characteristic impedance of space is about 328
  ohms and is a real factor in antenna design.
 
  No Ether?  What's impeding the RF?

 My question as well. If empty space is just that, what determines G, e0,
 u0, Z0, and all those other nice little things that cause 'empty' space to
 factor in as far less than empty when trying to radiate energy into it. What
 is 'carrying' a magnetic field? If space can curve, as the current
 interpretation of General Relativity says it does, what is curving?

  Did Laithwaite really make a spinning device that
  weighed less while being lifted in a 30 degree spiral?
  Sounds very Schaubergerish to me.

 As far as I know, no he didn't. He does suggest some interesting
 experiments, and a thought provoking similarity between electromagnetism and
 the actions of spinning flywheels. He suggested that the rotation of a
 flywheel may have a sort or relation to what we call inductance. That is, a
 resistor obeys Ohm's law just fine; add an inductor and use AC, things get
 strange, until you extend the theory a bit more. He suggests that straight
 line motion and acceleration is 'resistive', where rotational motion is
 'inductive.'

 If you build a large, fast flywheel, and play around with it in many
 different ways, you start to get confused by it. The conventional math works
 for the most part, but there is a feeling of something more to it than just
 that. Laithwaite was condemned for chasing it.

 --Kyle

Re: [Vo]:Th e SNIP of Jed.

2009-06-15 Thread Edmund Storms



On Jun 15, 2009, at 6:24 PM, Kyle Mcallister wrote:



--- On Mon, 6/15/09, Edmund Storms stor...@ix.netcom.com wrote:


Kyle, in the absence of Jed, I feel it's my duty to educate
about cold fusion. If you want to know what has been learned
up to 2007, I suggest you read my book The Science of Low
Energy Nuclear Reaction. If you want to learn what is going
on now, I suggest you go to www. LENR.org.


Alright, I will put your book on my reading list. It will take some  
time, however, as I already promised Jed I will read his book. But I  
will get to it.



The field
is growing rapidly and the effect is getting much more
reproducible. In addition, money is actually going into the
efforts from private sources.


This is good to hear. If there is something actually going on, more  
power to it then.



Active discussion about
the subject has moved to the CMNS discussion group where you
would discover a lively interest not handicapped by
trolls.  So when you say, The thing is roughly as dead
as it was years ago, you are not up to date.


What is CMNS?


This stands for condensed matter nuclear science which is the  
catchall description now being applied to the phenomenon.


Ed


--Kyle

Re: [Vo]:On Topic

2009-06-15 Thread Terry Blanton

On Mon, Jun 15, 2009 at 5:13 PM, Kyle
Mcallisterkyle_mcallis...@yahoo.com wrote:

 As to torsion, are you referring to the stuff Alexander Shpilman and co. were 
 doing? Weren't they exposed as frauds?

Is he affiliated with Gennady Shipov?  I always considered Shipov the
torsion czar.  (Oops!  Not intended to be a pol statement!)  g

Terry

Re: [Vo]:On Topic

2009-06-15 Thread Terry Blanton

Lately Shipov, et. al., has been claiming some reactionless drive effects.

Terry

On Mon, Jun 15, 2009 at 8:55 PM, Terry Blantonhohlr...@gmail.com wrote:
 On Mon, Jun 15, 2009 at 5:13 PM, Kyle
 Mcallisterkyle_mcallis...@yahoo.com wrote:

 As to torsion, are you referring to the stuff Alexander Shpilman and co. 
 were doing? Weren't they exposed as frauds?

 Is he affiliated with Gennady Shipov?  I always considered Shipov the
 torsion czar.  (Oops!  Not intended to be a pol statement!)  g

 Terry

Re: [Vo]:4D WATER

2009-06-15 Thread harvich


Oh dear; here I am trying to clean out my yahoo mail acct; which incidentally 
was recently phished; but because I have 132,000 messages or something this 
takes forever at 25 messages at a shot, and the yahoo loading time for that 
instruction ect... So I started from A in alphabetical sending order in which 
it took hours just to get thru the Russian type adresses with what I presume 
to be composed of the Cyrillic alphabet. So coming to the letter A I was 
wondering how many important messages in time I must be deleting. Ive had this 
yahoo account since 2002 or something, and I even pay for it! And after 
deleting the entirety of Allen Francom's entries or something, I slowed down a 
bit and started looking at what I might be deleting in this spring clean-up... 
Then I found this from a year ago.
Pioneering the Applications of Interphasal Resonances 
http://tech.groups.yahoo.com/group/teslafy/


--- On Wed, 7/9/08, alt...@vip.hr alt...@vip.hr wrote:

 From: alt...@vip.hr alt...@vip.hr
 Subject: [Vo]:4D WATER
 To: vortex-L@eskimo.com
 Date: Wednesday, July 9, 2008, 7:52 AM
 I would like to know whether anyone
 here has had any experience with 4D water. 
 I have been taking those drops in the past few months and
 am wondering 
 whether I am under the influence of auto-suggestion,
 placebo or whether it really 
 works. I have tried 4D not out of the necessity but out of
 curiosity and, as things 
 stand now, I have done my best decision in life so far.
 Sebastian
 
Well the only way I would reply here to this idiocy is to say that I heard 
about some russian scientist that was drinking heavy water for his health. One 
can scarcely imagine what 4 D water is supposed to be... But since you have 
responded on Nick Tesla's birthday almost a year ago, a more sensible reply is 
attempted.
     Let us instead look at the problem where the energy used in a current 
limited electrolysis process is obtained from expanded time, or essentially a 
conversion of time into energy. LaRouche uses this big word called 
epistemology. In my ferrite heating experiments, the load currents can be shown 
to be obtained from a total source where the phase angle differences of the 
signals in time are over 420 degrees in separation, and as a consequence more 
voltage developes on the rectified outputs then the source voltages empowering 
the process. Yet a measurement of the three phase inputs on the conventional 
method of power input shows that the apparent power input equals the real DC 
power output. In this regard a quarter amp passed thru a 3/8 ferrite block uses 
60 volts obtained from interphasal voltage rise between three currents of one 
third of an amp from 13 volts separated in time. Measurements of the input 
power(s) and output power are virtually
 identical, but if this time distortion is taking place why is the input power 
not less? 
     Lyndon Larouche might conclude the obvious, but since he may not know what 
to say in these circumstances; I will say it for him, and he can agree with me 
later. YOUR power input measurements are inherently flawed; they are 
epistemologically incorrect in light of the fact that you have measured the 
differences in time for each voltage rise referenced to the other, but you have 
not also measured the merging of currents on the stator delivery lines; which 
itself divides into two with the delta system of stator line delivery.
     So as things stand in the present line of measurements the input power 
summing ~15 watts from a 13 volt, 465 HZ  three phase AC  DELTA source 
delivering one third of an amp to 2.3 ohm delivery lines balanced with 70 ohm 
reactive loads to an apparent 273 ohm ferrite load releases 240 degrees F on a 
laser light temp measurement of the block. THIS particular ohmic load of 
ferrite, being a non-linear resistance to the voltage imposed upon it: is not 
yet at the point of maximum energy transfer from the outer resonances to the 
inner DC rectified load, and hence the addition of that load does not reduce 
the excessive phase angles in time found on the outside of this circuit. Here a 
somewhat apt comparison can be made to water having a non-linear resistance 
where a demonstration of a more efficient water electrolysis can be made with 
an impedance matching high resistance water cell of Non- electrolytic water 
solution vs the more readily accepted
 electrolytic solution practice for efficiency of power delivery to a water 
cell.
 In any case here I should now be able to ascertain how much water 
resistance needs to be added before the timing of outside voltage  sources 
returns to normal, and also the extra stator line delivery amperages that need 
to be noted..

Sincerely busy,
Harvey  Norris

[Vo]:Help Vortex

2009-06-15 Thread Steven Krivit

Any or all of us could take responsibility in helping to maintain the 
effectiveness and integrity of the list.


I was not acutely aware that RELIGION and POLITICS were inappropriate 
subjects here until this recent flare-up. I, of course, thought they were 
OT, but tolerated.


Now if the word from our sponsor (Bill) says that, in fact, RELIGION and 
POLITICS are inappropriate here, then I won't hesitate to jump in and 
remind someone about that if I notice it. Nor should anyone else, IMO.


Once the reminder is placed in the thread, a yellow (or red) flag is 
raised. The person is reminded that they have the option to move the thread 
over to the other forum. Simple and polite. If they don't move it, or they 
argue, they're bucking for a ban.


It is our way of helping Bill to provide this service for us. This is how 
community works. We make and abide by certain rules and we collectively 
support them.


Yes?
Anybody else agree with this?
Anybody else willing to help watch the list for (purely) RELIGION and 
POLITIC threads? (I presume that threads about energy politics are acceptable.)


Steve

Re: [Vo]:Help Vortex

2009-06-15 Thread Terry Blanton

On Mon, Jun 15, 2009 at 11:23 PM, Steven
Krivitstev...@newenergytimes.com wrote:

 (I presume that threads about energy politics are
 acceptable.)

Rothwell might disagree.

Terry

[Vo]:Ferrite Fishing Expedition.

2009-06-15 Thread Harvey Norris


 A 240 degree F heat release is made on a laser light measurement of the 3/8 
wide block. From notes a 1DCA field current from a  9.2 DCV source enabled 
three stator phases of 13.8 volts. Each phase recorded the following inputs
1) 26 volts (resonant voltage rise) enabling .35 A across 2.3 ohm delivery 
lines. Likewise for the other phases...
2) 27 volts yields .34 A
3) 31 volts yields .39 A

Now two full wave rectifiers are placed between the relative voltages between 
the resonant voltage rises on phases (1-2) and the next combination of (2-3) 
The fact that no full wave rectification is placed across (1-3) mdpt voltage 
rises is  irrevalent, becauses it makes no further delivery to the DC load; but 
a very special application of this third possible rectification can be shown 
with self powered field models obtained from this source.

The load from the three phase rectifications of voltage rises shows 65.7 volts 
enabling a DC conduction of .24 A causing a heat rise to 240 degree F on the 
block. The internal loads of procurred DC currents across the midpoints of the 
external delta series resonances are left intact from the beginning of the 
observations; but in BOTH circumstances, whether a load was present or not, the 
interphasal voltage measurements showed an excess of 360 degrees toal in the 
time circle. On this case here with the interphasal DC ferrite load present 
upon startup of rotation, the following interphasal voltages exist.

Between the ph.s 1  2 consisting of 26 and 27 volts exists 56 volts, slightly 
over 180 degrees.
Between phases 2  3 consisting of 27 and 31 volts exists 51 volts about 123.1 
degrees

Between the ph.s 1  3 consisting of 26 and 31 volts exists 50 volts, about a 
122.6 degree phase angle.

These are the preliminary measurements.
HDN
Pioneering the Applications of Interphasal Resonances 
http://tech.groups.yahoo.com/group/teslafy/

[Vo]:My own apology


Vortex,

I have apologized to Jed. I don't know if he will accept it, but nevertheless, 
I post it here as well, to make a public statement of it.

Jed and I do not agree on many things. But unfortunately, I took advantage of 
that, and lashed out in anger. I feel anger first, when I perceive a threat 
against what I believe in. It is not rational, but humans rarely are.

I was talking to my wife a while ago, lamenting the fact that I am perceived as 
a jerk by most, despite the fact that I, and she, believe I am more than that.

I then realized that perhaps I had reacted against Jed in the same manner. That 
which I hated, I had started to become. I had judged him wrongly, without 
knowing him and his circumstances, that which I so strongly fight against. 

I do not agree with most of what he believes. But I do not wish to harbor 
hatred. And so I make it public here: Jed, I am sorry for what I said, and I 
ask that you, and all of you, forgive this.

Let us turn away from this, and move towards the research there is to be done.

Thanks for reading this, all.
--Kyle

[Vo]:Matched Impedances in Resonant Water Cell Design

2009-06-15 Thread Harvey Norris


I have procurred and tested a 60 hz resonant supply to a DC water cell. This 
was in earlier winter months where I became fascinated by the end component 
which can act through the air; where these were high induction coil pairs of 60 
H paired through air to a pair of 23 mh coils made as two spools of 500 ft ,14 
gauge wire. Each of these used ~ 306 uf, a large value. The circuit could never 
be operated with 120 VAC input without a load present between the opposite 
inversely phased series resonances using these twin stacked coils of 23 mh 
matched to ~ 306 uf. Only 2.3 ohms would exist on each branch if the inversely 
phased series resonances were ideally obtained, which becomes the action under 
no load circumstances. To counter these initial problems a variac is used, and 
the rectified water cell chosen as 24 6 by 6 inch plates each separated by 3/4 
inch water. It is here the cell is
made as many of these in series and a variable water cell load can be put into 
testing by first chosing the end plates and then using a reduced portion of the 
24 plates in series. It is found here that when the total amount of plates are 
used that the 60 hz resonant supply has a terrrible efficiency, but as the 
plate number used is reduced, more current flows through the water cell load, 
and the impedance or actual water resistance of the load begins to match the 
impedance of the oppositely attached balanced reactances, whereby the maximum 
energy transfer thorem then implies that maximum energy transfer then takes 
place by impedance matching. However even at this point quite a loss of 
efficiency occured, perhaps 25 %. For this design ordinary water works better 
then electrolyte water! And this is because we are using 23 mh/2.3 ohms for the 
resonant ballasting at 60 hz, and the cell that has the same resistance as the 
reactance of 2.3 mh at 60 hz would
be the one to give maximum energy transfer. In this case I found that 5 plates 
in series gave this amount and by then noting the sum of those surface areas on 
each side, this then gives a guideline as to how much surface area needs to be 
employed for the case where the cell is made from concentric tubes at the same 
3/4 inch separation of plates. I have now again removed these coils for use 
at 465 hz alternator frequency, which can give much higher q factors. I am 
again investigating the ferrite heating phenomenon, and will include 
electrolysis experimentation at this rectified frequency.Sincerely HDN

Pioneering the Applications of Interphasal Resonances 
http://tech.groups.yahoo.com/group/teslafy/

Re: [Vo]:When two wrongs make a right -- oil and nuclear

2009-06-15 Thread mixent

In reply to  Lawrence de Bivort's message of Sun, 14 Jun 2009 14:08:33 -0400:
Hi Lawrence,
[snip]
Hi, Robin,

Agreed that carbons can be used to make carbon compounds. But, as you point
out, there is non-trivial the matter of energy consumed in the process and,
I would add, the non-trivial matter of economics.

There is a reason we aren't making carbon-based materials out of CO2. And
this same reason is the reason why we should be conserving oil for feedstock
purposes, rather than fuel.

No?

Lawrence

The difference between us is that I believe we will shortly conquer fusion,
making it available as an energy source. Once that has happened, everything
changes for the better, and that's why I think your vision of the future is
inaccurate.


-Original Message-
From: mix...@bigpond.com [mailto:mix...@bigpond.com] 
Sent: Saturday, June 13, 2009 7:03 PM
To: vortex-l@eskimo.com
Subject: Re: [Vo]:When two wrongs make a right -- oil and nuclear

In reply to  Lawrence de Bivort's message of Fri, 12 Jun 2009 22:16:47
-0400:
Hi,
[snip]
Someday, I imagine, humankind will rue having burned oil for fuel,
realizing
that it was far more valuable as material feedstock for plastics than it is
as fuel. It may be our children who come to realize this, and they may
wonder why their parents and grandparents didn't realize it and why they
didn't insist that oil be used only as a feedstock.  
[snip]
I doubt it. A good organic chemist can make just about any carbon compound
from
just about any other carbon compound, given enough energy.
Even CO2 can serve as the source if really necessary.
So the only real limitation is adequate cheap clean energy.
Fusion in one form or another would provide this.

Regards,

Robin van Spaandonk

http://rvanspaa.freehostia.com/Project.html

Regards,

Robin van Spaandonk

http://rvanspaa.freehostia.com/Project.html

Re: [Vo]:Help Vortex