subject:"Re\: I signed up to be cryogenically frozen"


Stathis Papaioannou wrote:

On 23 December 2014 at 17:46, Bruce Kellett bhkell...@optusnet.com.au wrote:

Stathis Papaioannou wrote:

On 22 December 2014 at 23:04, Bruno Marchal marc...@ulb.ac.be wrote:

On 22 Dec 2014, at 06:01, Stathis Papaioannou wrote:
On Monday, December 22, 2014, Samiya Illias samiyaill...@gmail.com
wrote:

If death leads to oblivion, then there isn't much to worry about.


Atheists worry about death as much as theists.


Atheists might worry about death, but less so than a believer in Hell.
Some
atheists believe that death is the end of consciousness and thus of
worries,
but if you believe in some after-life, you might fear unknown happenings,
or suffering, etc.


Perhaps, but some may prefer Hell to oblivion, while others try to
kill themselves after a minor setback. It depends on the person.


An odd notion, that: some people might prefer Hell to Oblivion. But that
aside, you seem to think that it is only fear of death (and/or Hell) that
keeps people from widespread mayhem and self-destruction. I must admit that
I have a healthier view of humanity.


I do in fact think that it is the belief that death constitutes a harm
to the person who dies that keeps people from widespread mayhem and
self-destruction. I think this is also the case for religious people
who claim to believe that the deceased will go to Heaven, because deep
down most of them know it's bullshit. To be fair, there is no logical
reason why death should be considered this way, it's just the way most
people think.


You might be right about most people, I can't really comment. But I 
prefer to be rational, and encourage others to be so also.


Bruce

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Re: I signed up to be cryogenically frozen

2014-12-23 Thread Quentin Anciaux

2014-12-23 11:04 GMT+01:00 Bruce Kellett bhkell...@optusnet.com.au:

 Stathis Papaioannou wrote:

 On 23 December 2014 at 17:46, Bruce Kellett bhkell...@optusnet.com.au
 wrote:

 Stathis Papaioannou wrote:

 On 22 December 2014 at 23:04, Bruno Marchal marc...@ulb.ac.be wrote:

 On 22 Dec 2014, at 06:01, Stathis Papaioannou wrote:
 On Monday, December 22, 2014, Samiya Illias samiyaill...@gmail.com
 wrote:

 If death leads to oblivion, then there isn't much to worry about.


 Atheists worry about death as much as theists.


 Atheists might worry about death, but less so than a believer in Hell.
 Some
 atheists believe that death is the end of consciousness and thus of
 worries,
 but if you believe in some after-life, you might fear unknown
 happenings,
 or suffering, etc.


 Perhaps, but some may prefer Hell to oblivion, while others try to
 kill themselves after a minor setback. It depends on the person.


 An odd notion, that: some people might prefer Hell to Oblivion. But that
 aside, you seem to think that it is only fear of death (and/or Hell) that
 keeps people from widespread mayhem and self-destruction. I must admit
 that
 I have a healthier view of humanity.


 I do in fact think that it is the belief that death constitutes a harm
 to the person who dies that keeps people from widespread mayhem and
 self-destruction. I think this is also the case for religious people
 who claim to believe that the deceased will go to Heaven, because deep
 down most of them know it's bullshit. To be fair, there is no logical
 reason why death should be considered this way, it's just the way most
 people think.


 You might be right about most people, I can't really comment. But I prefer
 to be rational, and encourage others to be so also.


I can't see how fearing or not fearing death can be rational at all,
knowing we don't know exactly what death implies... The fact that death is
the apparent end of interaction with our reality can lead to have good
reasons to avoid it, and so fearing it could be rational... I heard your
argument about oblivion and so what ? why because after the fact you
wouldn't care would mean you shouldn't care here and now ? So instead of
insulting other people about not being rational and you because you're so
good is, you should try to be more humble.

Quentin




 Bruce


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Re: I signed up to be cryogenically frozen

2014-12-23 Thread zibblequibble



On Monday, December 22, 2014 10:18:55 PM UTC, Bruce wrote:

 zibble...@gmail.com javascript: wrote: 
  On Monday, December 22, 2014 10:06:21 PM UTC, Bruce wrote: 
  
  John Clark wrote: 

And as for the fear of death stuff, are we asked to believe that 
  if you 
learned right now that tomorrow morning at 9am a firing squad was 
  going 
to put several bullets into your brain you wouldn't be the 
  slightest bit 
apprehensive and would go to bed tonight just as you always do 
  and sleep 
like a baby without a care in the world? 
  
  No, I wouldn't fear death even then. I might worry about the 
  possibility 
  of pain. I might worry about the injustice and arbitrariness of it 
 all. 
  But mostly I would be concerned for those who depend on me here and 
  now. 
The degree of this concern would depend on my age when this 
 happens, 
  the number of those dependants, and their degree of dependency. 
  
  Bruce 
  
  
  Turing Test Fail   

 Have you never heard of, or seen, courage in the face of death? Often 
 taken as the true test of manhood! 

 Bruce 


 Bruce, Courage is acting in the face of fear, where the action speaks to 
virtue. Having no fear is something entirely different. People are born 
that way sometimes. And sometimes people are temporarily desensitized by 
events in a theatre or war or a sub-culture gone awry. The dy secret of 
PTSD is that it is almost always not about what is done to us, but 
something that we did, or allowed to be done. 

Answer to your question..I've seen enough. Your characterizations of fear 
exhibited a disjoint. Al the stuff about oblivion and that fear of death 
was culturalthis wasn't thought through. That's the best that can be 
said. But then you gave a very descriptive depiction of fear in a runaway 
paragraph, that rang very true. 

One has to be logical and marry up the incongruity best as can. I think it 
says you've had experiences of fear that you still struggle with. You 
described your own fear. 


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Re: I signed up to be cryogenically frozen

2014-12-23 Thread zibblequibble



On Tuesday, December 23, 2014 2:40:53 AM UTC, stathisp wrote:



 On Tuesday, December 23, 2014, Bruce Kellett bhke...@optusnet.com.au 
 javascript: wrote:

 zibblequib...@gmail.com wrote:

 On Monday, December 22, 2014 10:06:21 PM UTC, Bruce wrote:

 John Clark wrote:
  
   And as for the fear of death stuff, are we asked to believe that
 if you
   learned right now that tomorrow morning at 9am a firing squad was
 going
   to put several bullets into your brain you wouldn't be the
 slightest bit
   apprehensive and would go to bed tonight just as you always do
 and sleep
   like a baby without a care in the world?

 No, I wouldn't fear death even then. I might worry about the
 possibility
 of pain. I might worry about the injustice and arbitrariness of it 
 all.
 But mostly I would be concerned for those who depend on me here and
 now.
   The degree of this concern would depend on my age when this 
 happens,
 the number of those dependants, and their degree of dependency.

 Bruce


 Turing Test Fail  


 Have you never heard of, or seen, courage in the face of death? Often 
 taken as the true test of manhood!


 It wouldn't require courage if death were no big deal. 


that's exactly right. And sometimes at the very end, life has been made 
cheap, or we cheapened our own lives. And we don't really care. 

And then the other person at the very end, somewhere else, in someone 
else's world. Who had the courage to live life and earn the love of others 
and accept theirs in return also. Who has to die and cannot bear the 
reality of its meaning. It means you leave today and you never see all 
those people that love you and you love them, again. 

See I'd look on that as someone who had lived fearlessly. To face the fear 
of failure of rejection of abandonment of loss, right through, which is 
what a person has to do to get a big life. The final test of that is having 
something unbearable to lose, when that days  comes.

Most do show courage in the end for all that. Life is kind in that way. 
Only asks from you what you spent your life doing best. 

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Re: I signed up to be cryogenically frozen

2014-12-23 Thread Jason Resch

On Sun, Dec 21, 2014 at 3:29 PM, Bruce Kellett bhkell...@optusnet.com.au
wrote:

 Jason Resch wrote:

 On Sunday, December 21, 2014, Bruce Kellett bhkell...@optusnet.com.au
 mailto:bhkell...@optusnet.com.au wrote:
   Stathis Papaioannou wrote:
   On Sunday, December 21, 2014, Bruce Kellett 
 bhkell...@optusnet.com.au mailto:bhkell...@optusnet.com.au wrote:
  
   What's wrong with oblivion?
  
Most legal systems punish murder more than any other crime, and
 those that have the death penalty reserve it for the worst offenders. Most
 criminals know that if they threaten a person with death they are more
 likely to comply than with other threats. Most religions, in the absence of
 any evidence, promise an afterlife. I think this all supports the fact that
 it is a common human trait to fear oblivion, even if as John says it's just
 a matter of taste.
  
   Stathis Papaioannou
  
   It might be a common human trait to fear oblivion, but it is even more
 irrational than belief in an afterlife.

 Why do you think belief in an afterlife is irrational?



 If you read more carefully, you will see that I did not claim that. What I
 said was that fear of oblivion was more irrational than belief in the
 afterlife. That leaves open the question of whether belief in the afterlife
 is irrational or not.


Yet if you read it *even *more carefully, you will see that you did not
simply write more irrational, but you said even more irrational, which
implies you think there is at least some degree of irrationality in the
belief in the afterlife.

Jason

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Re: I signed up to be cryogenically frozen

2014-12-23 Thread Jason Resch

On Sun, Dec 21, 2014 at 5:30 PM, LizR lizj...@gmail.com wrote:

 On 22 December 2014 at 08:06, meekerdb meeke...@verizon.net wrote:


 I do not fear death, in view of the fact that I had been dead for
 billions and billions of years before I was born, and had not suffered the
 slightest inconvenience from it.'
 --- Mark Twain

 I have a suspicion that wasn't really Mark Twain, although I know it's
 often credited to him. People didn't say billions and billions of years
 much in those days (they do a lot more now, perhaps thanks to Carl Sagan).
 But I'd be happy to be proved wrong - do you know the original source?


Good catch, I wouldn't be surprised if you're right. Although it's worth
noting Carl Sagan never used the term billions and billions either, but
people ended up associating that phrase with him.

Jason

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Re: I signed up to be cryogenically frozen

2014-12-23 Thread Jason Resch

On Sun, Dec 21, 2014 at 6:47 PM, Bruce Kellett bhkell...@optusnet.com.au
wrote:

 John Clark wrote:

 On Sun, Dec 21, 2014  Bruce Kellett bhkell...@optusnet.com.au wrote:

  Evolution gave living things an instinct for self-preservation. But you
 can have such an instinct operating healthily and still not fear death.


 Unrelated? Bob and Don are crossing a street when a large truck turns
 a corner and is heading straight for both of them. Bob has a fear of
 death but Don has a instinct for self preservation, please tell me
 about the unrelated and very different procedures Bob and Don use to
 get out of the way.


 They should both jump for safety! Don's instinct for self preservation
 makes this jump instinctive -- and successful. Bob's fear of death leads
 him to freeze in his tracks, and he is killed.


  It [death] is not something to be feared because no-one has ever
 experienced it


 Your paraphrase is very telling. I said no-one has ever experienced
 oblivion, not that no-one has died [death]. Plenty of people have died, and
 many have suffered from the experience of dying. But since we all die at
 some point, fearing death is scarcely rational. Fearing suffering is
 rational, however, because we actually experience that and rationally try
 to avoid it.


I don't think John's motivations stem from a fear of death but from an
unwillingness to die. I see how your line of reasoning implies the former
is irrational, but I think we're just taking the former too literally,
where what we really mean is the latter.

Jason

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Re: I signed up to be cryogenically frozen



On 22 Dec 2014, at 19:13, John Clark wrote:


On Sun, Dec 21, 2014  Bruce Kellett bhkell...@optusnet.com.au wrote:

 No one is denying that death results in oblivion.

Then what are we arguing about?

 But that is not the point.

It isn't?!

 My claim was that no one has experienced oblivion. In common  
parlance, we routinely say that everyone experiences death at the  
end of their lives. Hence the distinction made between death and  
oblivion in this context.


So this entire death vs oblivion debate has nothing to do with the  
nature of reality, it's about grammar and how one particular  
language out of the 7000 in use on this planet happens to use 2 words.


And as for the fear of death stuff, are we asked to believe that if  
you learned right now that tomorrow morning at 9am a firing squad  
was going to put several bullets into your brain you wouldn't be the  
slightest bit apprehensive and would go to bed tonight just as you  
always do and sleep like a baby without a care in the world?


You can fear for your life being too much short, without any fear of  
oblivion.


Typically, and oversimplifying for pedagogical clarity,  in occident  
we oppose death with life, like if those were different state of a  
person. In orient, they oppose more easily death with birth, making  
them different event which can happen. In the average, in orient, they  
have the correct (with respect to classical computationalism) fear  
of death, which is not the fear of oblivion, but the fear of a  
possible bad next birth. According to their theories, that might  
depend on the karma, which is only an abstract notion of causality.  
This makes sense, as our action here and now determine the good-bad of  
our next instants, and of the next instants of people *very* similar  
to us: our children grand-children, etc.


Bruno




 John K Clark


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Re: I signed up to be cryogenically frozen



On 22 Dec 2014, at 21:14, meekerdb wrote:


On 12/22/2014 4:43 AM, Bruno Marchal wrote:


On 21 Dec 2014, at 20:06, meekerdb wrote:


On 12/20/2014 11:05 PM, Bruce Kellett wrote:
Most legal systems punish murder more than any other crime, and  
those that have the death penalty reserve it for the worst  
offenders. Most criminals know that if they threaten a person  
with death they are more likely to comply than with other  
threats. Most religions, in the absence of any evidence, promise  
an afterlife. I think this all supports the fact that it is a  
common human trait to fear oblivion, even if as John says it's  
just a matter of taste.


Stathis Papaioannou


It might be a common human trait to fear oblivion, but it is even  
more irrational than belief in an afterlife.


Bruce



I do not fear death, in view of the fact that I had been dead for  
billions and billions of years before I was born, and had not  
suffered the slightest inconvenience from it.'(Mark Twain)


Would do accept to be tortured, here and now, with the promise of  
1) 1000,000 $, 2) total amnesia of the torture?


But then I would have forgotten you owed me a $1,000,000.


total amnesia on the torture. Of course not of event preceding the  
torture. I pay you in advance if you insist.


I guess you are joking.

But still, you forget to answer.

A quasi (comp) equivalent question is the following one. I pay you  
1000,000 $ if you accept to be duplicated, and the copy will be  
tortured to death. I let you introduce delays if it give you the  
feeling it is less risky, but oif course if you said yes to step 4 you  
know this is an illusion.


Should we made such transaction illegal?






If no, the Mark Twain argument is less convincing.

Note that Mark twain provides here an argument for after-life. If I  
could come from nowhere, why would that not be possible again? is  
it not the case all the time? Who are we, really?


Indeed.  As far as I know Twain may have thought another life was  
possible.  He only satirized the Abrahamic idea of an after-life in  
heaven or hell.  But why would it be HIS after-life if he didn't  
remember his prior life?


It is HIS after-life because he makes the SAME errors.

Bruno





Brent
Now then in Earth these people cannot stand much church - an
hour and a quarter is the limit and they draw the line at once a
week.  That is to say, Sunday.  One day in seven; and even then
they do not look forward to it with longing.  And so - consider
what their heaven provides for them: church that lasts forever,
and Sabbath that has not end!  They quickly weary of this brief
hebdomadal Sabbath here, yet they long for that eternal one;
they dream of it, they talk about it, they think they think they
are going to enjoy it - with all their simple hearts they think
they think they are going to be happy in it!
It is because they do not think at all; they only think they
think.
--- Mark Twain, Letters from Earth

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Re: I signed up to be cryogenically frozen



On 22 Dec 2014, at 22:20, LizR wrote:


On 23 December 2014 at 09:14, meekerdb meeke...@verizon.net wrote:
Would do accept to be tortured, here and now, with the promise of  
1) 1000,000 $, 2) total amnesia of the torture?

But then I would have forgotten you owed me a $1,000,000.

The stipulation was only that you would forget the torture.


Thanks Liz.

But you too seem to avoid the question. Of course it is a difficult  
one. To legalize such practice is equivalent with legalization of  
torture (with consent, this does not legalize rape or sex under  
coercion, unless it is part of the accepted contracts). A prospect  
which makes sense in a civilization where self-duplication is in  
practice (maybe when living in virtual environments).


A future tip: encrypt your Gödel number, if possible quantum  
mechanically, as soon as possible. Protect yourself.


Bruno






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Re: I signed up to be cryogenically frozen



On 22 Dec 2014, at 23:10, Bruce Kellett wrote:


Bruno Marchal wrote:
Would do accept to be tortured, here and now, with the promise of  
1) 1000,000 $, 2) total amnesia of the torture?


These artificial situations are hard to evaluate. I would say,  
however, that people are often prepared to put up with considerable  
pain and inconvenience if they think the endpoint is of sufficient  
importance. Amnesia of the pain and suffering is not usually a  
relevant consideration.



Indeed, as big pain are also technically hard to forget and abstract  
from. But in those afterllife consideration, and assuming the  
computationalist hypothesis, those question makes theoretical sense,  
and indeed can correspond to different theo-technological practices,  
and with the math, we can interview machines on such questions, in the  
different points of view (that machines can't avoid when looking  
inward in the Gödelian classical sense).


Bruno



Bruce

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Re: I signed up to be cryogenically frozen

2014-12-23 Thread John Clark

On Mon, Dec 22, 2014 at 5:06 PM, Bruce Kellett bhkell...@optusnet.com.au
wrote:

  And as for the fear of death stuff, are we asked to believe that if you
 learned right now that tomorrow morning at 9am a firing squad was going to
 put several bullets into your brain you wouldn't be the slightest bit
 apprehensive and would go to bed tonight just as you always do and sleep
 like a baby without a care in the world?


 No, I wouldn't fear death even then. bravest


Then you're either the bravest man who ever lived or you're full of
bullshit. I think it's far more likely that you're full of bullshit.

 I might worry about the possibility of pain.


With several bullets inserted into your brain with high power rifles you're
head will explode within a fraction of a second and you're not going to
feel any pain, but you're sure as hell going feel some fear the night
before thinking about it.

 John k Clark

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Re: I signed up to be cryogenically frozen


John Clark wrote:
On Mon, Dec 22, 2014 at 5:06 PM, Bruce Kellett 
bhkell...@optusnet.com.au mailto:bhkell...@optusnet.com.au wrote:


  And as for the fear of death stuff, are we asked to believe
that if you learned right now that tomorrow morning at 9am a
firing squad was going to put several bullets into your brain
you wouldn't be the slightest bit apprehensive and would go to
bed tonight just as you always do and sleep like a baby without
a care in the world?

No, I wouldn't fear death even then.

Then you're either the bravest man who ever lived or you're full of 
bullshit. I think it's far more likely that you're full of bullshit.


A lot of people have faced firing squads with calm dignity. I don't 
think I am particularly brave, but the thought of death itself -- being 
dead, that is -- does not frighten me in the least. As I said, if you 
have dependants you would worry about the effect on them. But that does 
not mean that you would fear for yourself.


Bruce





  I might worry about the possibility of pain. 



With several bullets inserted into your brain with high power rifles 
you're head will explode within a fraction of a second and you're not 
going to feel any pain, but you're sure as hell going feel some fear the 
night before thinking about it.


 John k Clark


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Re: I signed up to be cryogenically frozen


Bruno Marchal wrote:


On 22 Dec 2014, at 21:14, meekerdb wrote:


On 12/22/2014 4:43 AM, Bruno Marchal wrote:


On 21 Dec 2014, at 20:06, meekerdb wrote:


On 12/20/2014 11:05 PM, Bruce Kellett wrote:
Most legal systems punish murder more than any other crime, and 
those that have the death penalty reserve it for the worst 
offenders. Most criminals know that if they threaten a person with 
death they are more likely to comply than with other threats. Most 
religions, in the absence of any evidence, promise an afterlife. I 
think this all supports the fact that it is a common human trait 
to fear oblivion, even if as John says it's just a matter of taste.


Stathis Papaioannou


It might be a common human trait to fear oblivion, but it is even 
more irrational than belief in an afterlife.


Bruce 



I do not fear death, in view of the fact that I had been dead for 
billions and billions of years before I was born, and had not 
suffered the slightest inconvenience from it.'(Mark Twain)


Would do accept to be tortured, here and now, with the promise of 1) 
1000,000 $, 2) total amnesia of the torture?


But then I would have forgotten you owed me a $1,000,000.


total amnesia on the torture. Of course not of event preceding the 
torture. I pay you in advance if you insist.


I guess you are joking. 


But still, you forget to answer.

A quasi (comp) equivalent question is the following one. I pay you 
1000,000 $ if you accept to be duplicated, and the copy will be tortured 
to death. I let you introduce delays if it give you the feeling it is 
less risky, but oif course if you said yes to step 4 you know this is an 
illusion. 


Should we made such transaction illegal?


It would seem to be a problem that if one entered into such an 
arrangement one would, in effect, be complicit in, or at least 
condoning, torture. And that is immoral, illegal even.


Bruce

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Re: I signed up to be cryogenically frozen


zibblequib...@gmail.com wrote:

On Monday, December 22, 2014 10:18:55 PM UTC, Bruce wrote:

Have you never heard of, or seen, courage in the face of death? Often
taken as the true test of manhood!

Bruce


 Bruce, Courage is acting in the face of fear, where the action speaks 
to virtue. Having no fear is something entirely different. People are 
born that way sometimes. And sometimes people are temporarily 
desensitized by events in a theatre or war or a sub-culture gone awry. 
The dy secret of PTSD is that it is almost always not about what is done 
to us, but something that we did, or allowed to be done.


Answer to your question..I've seen enough. Your characterizations of 
fear exhibited a disjoint. Al the stuff about oblivion and that fear of 
death was culturalthis wasn't thought through. That's the best that 
can be said. But then you gave a very descriptive depiction of fear in a 
runaway paragraph, that rang very true.


One has to be logical and marry up the incongruity best as can. I think 
it says you've had experiences of fear that you still struggle with. You 
described your own fear.


I don't know what you are talking about. You must be confusing me with 
something someone else wrote.


Bruce

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Re: I signed up to be cryogenically frozen

2014-12-23 Thread meekerdb


On 12/23/2014 8:59 AM, Bruno Marchal wrote:

If no, the Mark Twain argument is less convincing.

Note that Mark twain provides here an argument for after-life. If I could come from 
nowhere, why would that not be possible again? is it not the case all the time? Who 
are we, really?


Indeed.  As far as I know Twain may have thought another life was possible.  He only 
satirized the Abrahamic idea of an after-life in heaven or hell.  But why would it be 
HIS after-life if he didn't remember his prior life?


It is HIS after-life because he makes the SAME errors.


How do you know.  Did he make the same mistake every day of his life?  Every week? Every 
month?  Did he never learn anything?  Is it fate, so that he makes the eternal return?


Brent

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Re: I signed up to be cryogenically frozen


John Clark wrote:


With several bullets inserted into your brain with high power rifles 
you're head will explode within a fraction of a second and you're not 
going to feel any pain, but you're sure as hell going feel some fear the 
night before thinking about it.


I am reminded of Edward Woodward playing Breaker Morant in the 
Australian film of the same name about the Boer war. He was sentenced to 
death by firing squad for executing prisoners of war. As he was tied to 
the post waiting for the officer to lower his sword for the order to 
fire he shouted Shoot straight, you bastards.


Although this is a scene from a movie (based on a real story), I think 
the image conveyed is not unrealistic for people who believe that their 
execution is unjust.


Bruce

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Re: I signed up to be cryogenically frozen

2014-12-23 Thread meekerdb


On 12/23/2014 9:12 AM, Bruno Marchal wrote:
A future tip: encrypt your Gödel number, if possible quantum mechanically, as soon as 
possible. Protect yourself.


Doesn't a Godel number depend on the Godelization scheme - which I think would be enough 
encryption.


Brent

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Re: I signed up to be cryogenically frozen

2014-12-23 Thread John Clark

On Tue, Dec 23, 2014 at 4:43 PM, Bruce Kellett bhkell...@optusnet.com.au
wrote:


  I wouldn't fear death even then.

  Then you're either the bravest man who ever lived or you're full of
 bullshit. I think it's far more likely that you're full of bullshit.


  A lot of people have faced firing squads with calm dignity.


Some may have been dignified but I am quite certain in every single case
their heart rate was elevated over what it would have been had they not
been facing a firing squad. And no doubt you have played the scene over in
your mind but do you really think your musings about what it would be like
to face a firing squad have the slightest relation to the reality of
actually facing a  firing squad? You may be certain how you'd react in a
life or death situation, but as I've said being certain and being correct
are not the same thing; I don't think we have good simulation software in
our brain for that sort of thing and thus nobody can know how they'd behave
in such a extreme situation until that it actually happened.

 I don't think I am particularly brave,


You know something, I don't either.

 but the thought of death itself -- being dead, that is -- does not
 frighten me in the least.


Bullshit.

As I said, if you have dependants you would worry about the effect on them.
 But that does not mean that you would fear for yourself.


Well I guess you're just a selfless hero then.

  John K Clark

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Re: I signed up to be cryogenically frozen


John Clark wrote:
On Tue, Dec 23, 2014 at 4:43 PM, Bruce Kellett 
bhkell...@optusnet.com.au mailto:bhkell...@optusnet.com.au wrote:



 I wouldn't fear death even then.

  Then you're either the bravest man who ever lived or you're
full of bullshit. I think it's far more likely that you're full
of bullshit.


  A lot of people have faced firing squads with calm dignity.

Some may have been dignified but I am quite certain in every single case 
their heart rate was elevated over what it would have been had they not 
been facing a firing squad. And no doubt you have played the scene over 
in your mind but do you really think your musings about what it would be 
like to face a firing squad have the slightest relation to the reality 
of actually facing a  firing squad? You may be certain how you'd react 
in a life or death situation, but as I've said being certain and being 
correct are not the same thing; I don't think we have good simulation 
software in our brain for that sort of thing and thus nobody can know 
how they'd behave in such a extreme situation until that it actually 
happened.


  I don't think I am particularly brave,

You know something, I don't either. 


  but the thought of death itself -- being dead, that is -- does
not frighten me in the least.

Bullshit.


On what basis do you call what I have said, Bullshit? It is the sober 
truth. If you don't believe me then the problem is yours, not mine.




As I said, if you have dependants you would worry about the effect
on them. But that does not mean that you would fear for yourself.


Well I guess you're just a selfless hero then.


Maybe that makes you the craven coward.

Bruce



  John K Clark


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Re: I signed up to be cryogenically frozen



On 22 Dec 2014, at 06:01, Stathis Papaioannou wrote:




On Monday, December 22, 2014, Samiya Illias samiyaill...@gmail.com  
wrote:

If death leads to oblivion, then there isn't much to worry about.

Atheists worry about death as much as theists.


Atheists might worry about death, but less so than a believer in Hell.  
Some atheists believe that death is the end of consciousness and thus  
of worries, but if you believe in some after-life, you might fear  
unknown happenings,  or suffering, etc.


Bruno






However, if death doesn't lead to oblivion, but rather to another  
state of being, then there may be plenty to plan about!


None of us remember a life before this life. However, we all entered  
this life! We entered this life in varied circumstances, and we are  
all living this life in very varied circumstances. What if death  
just leads to another life, and what if it depends on what we did  
with this life?


Samiya



On Mon, Dec 22, 2014 at 8:47 AM, meekerdb meeke...@verizon.net  
wrote:

On 12/21/2014 6:59 PM, Bruce Kellett wrote:
Who said it was irrational to stop an experience that one finds  
pleasurable? All I am saying is that death comes to us all, and  
that it is irrational to fear death per se, because once you are  
dead you are not around to worry about missing anything.


I might be more accurate to say it is irrational to fear being dead.

Brent
I'm not afraid of dying. I just don't want to be there when it  
happens.

--- Woody Allen

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Re: I signed up to be cryogenically frozen



On 22 Dec 2014, at 02:59, meekerdb wrote:


On 12/21/2014 11:40 AM, Bruno Marchal wrote:
There is a difference between fearing oblivion, and fearing having  
a too much short life. That is why we find the death of our parents  
very sad but somehow acceptable, and we find unbearable and  
unconsolable with the death of a child.


That fear is your genes fear of not being propagated.


Not necessarily. You can still fear your son or daughter could die,  
despite he/she has already a big family. What is sad with the death of  
young people is that their life is shortened, and you have a feeling  
of unfairness because you fell they could have realize many things.


Bruno

Life is like this soup. Not only it is distasteful, but there is not  
a lot of it  (Woody Allen)





Brent

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Re: I signed up to be cryogenically frozen



On 22 Dec 2014, at 02:09, Stathis Papaioannou wrote:




On Monday, December 22, 2014, Bruce Kellett  
bhkell...@optusnet.com.au wrote:

Stathis Papaioannou wrote:

On Monday, December 22, 2014, Bruce Kellett  
bhkell...@optusnet.com.au mailto:bhkell...@optusnet.com.au wrote:


John Clark wrote:

On Sun, Dec 21, 2014 , Bruce Kellett bhkell...@optusnet.com.au 


wrote:

  An instinct for self-preservation is unrelated to whether  
or not

you have a fear of death, or of oblivion

Unrelated?? Don't be ridiculous! Why the hell do you imagine
Evolution
invented the fear of death in the first place?


Evolution did not invent a fear of death. That is purely  
cultural,
and is not even associated with consciousness -- it comes only  
with
self-awareness and an inner narrative. Evolution gave living  
things
an instinct for self-preservation. But you can have such an  
instinct
operating healthily and still not fear death. Fear of death  
probably

comes from a fear of the unknown, and is linked to the fear of
prolonged suffering. But oblivion is oblivion -- it is not  
something

to be feared because no-one has ever experienced it, or can ever
experience it.


Following that reasoning, do you believe there is nothing wrong with  
murder?


How on earth did you get that from what I said?

If there's nothing wrong with oblivion, and murder leads to  
oblivion, then there's nothing wrong with murder.


There is nothing wrong with oblivion is compatible with the fact there  
is something wrong with a shortened  life.


People will accept artificial brain, not for avoiding oblivion per se,  
but for seeing the next soccer cup.


Bruno





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Re: I signed up to be cryogenically frozen

2014-12-22 Thread Alberto G. Corona

That fear of death is cultural is the most insane thing I ever heard from
the insane theory of cultural determinism

Fear of death permits to do planning in advance to avoid death. Because
planning is something human-specific, fear of death is a human-specific
instinct. For a believer like me,  fear of death is something imprinted in
the human soul by a gradual process of evolution or by a creation process
(For God that lives outside of time, both things are the same) that
appeared as soon as other higher human capacities appeared. A rational mind
can not survive without fear of death.

But like all higher instincts, it is flexible. I can fight to death to
defend others or someone can suicide itself when he feel that it is a
burden for the others.
That may prove that suicide is not only only a personal sin, that denies
that God loves him, but a sin of the others that make someone to feel a
burden.

 That proves the intrinsically social, not individualistic nature of Men:
His own life is not the highest value to defend, and yet It has to defend
his own life, not only for himself but also for the good of others.

2014-12-22 1:47 GMT+01:00 Bruce Kellett bhkell...@optusnet.com.au:

 John Clark wrote:

 On Sun, Dec 21, 2014  Bruce Kellett bhkell...@optusnet.com.au wrote:

  Evolution gave living things an instinct for self-preservation. But you
 can have such an instinct operating healthily and still not fear death.


 Unrelated? Bob and Don are crossing a street when a large truck turns
 a corner and is heading straight for both of them. Bob has a fear of
 death but Don has a instinct for self preservation, please tell me
 about the unrelated and very different procedures Bob and Don use to
 get out of the way.


 They should both jump for safety! Don's instinct for self preservation
 makes this jump instinctive -- and successful. Bob's fear of death leads
 him to freeze in his tracks, and he is killed.


  It [death] is not something to be feared because no-one has ever
 experienced it


 Your paraphrase is very telling. I said no-one has ever experienced
 oblivion, not that no-one has died [death]. Plenty of people have died, and
 many have suffered from the experience of dying. But since we all die at
 some point, fearing death is scarcely rational. Fearing suffering is
 rational, however, because we actually experience that and rationally try
 to avoid it.

 Bruce



  About 57 billion human beings have lived on this planet over the last
 million years, and although many have made similar sounding greeting
 card style statements not one of those 57 billion has actually taken
 that advice to heart and survived. In the last hour of his life I
 don't think Robin Williams feared death, or at least there were other
 things that he feared more.

   John K Clark









  John Clark wrote:

 On Sun, Dec 21, 2014 , Bruce Kellett bhkell...@optusnet.com.au wrote:

   An instinct for self-preservation is unrelated to whether or not
 you have a fear of death, or of oblivion

 Unrelated?? Don't be ridiculous! Why the hell do you imagine Evolution
 invented the fear of death in the first place?


 Evolution did not invent a fear of death. That is purely cultural, and
 is not even associated with consciousness -- it comes only with
 self-awareness and an inner narrative. Evolution gave living things an
 instinct for self-preservation. But you can have such an instinct operating
 healthily and still not fear death. Fear of death probably comes from a
 fear of the unknown, and is linked to the fear of prolonged suffering. But
 oblivion is oblivion -- it is not something to be feared because no-one has
 ever experienced it, or can ever experience it.


 Bruce

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Re: I signed up to be cryogenically frozen



On 21 Dec 2014, at 20:06, meekerdb wrote:


On 12/20/2014 11:05 PM, Bruce Kellett wrote:
Most legal systems punish murder more than any other crime, and  
those that have the death penalty reserve it for the worst  
offenders. Most criminals know that if they threaten a person with  
death they are more likely to comply than with other threats. Most  
religions, in the absence of any evidence, promise an afterlife. I  
think this all supports the fact that it is a common human trait  
to fear oblivion, even if as John says it's just a matter of taste.


Stathis Papaioannou


It might be a common human trait to fear oblivion, but it is even  
more irrational than belief in an afterlife.


Bruce



I do not fear death, in view of the fact that I had been dead for  
billions and billions of years before I was born, and had not  
suffered the slightest inconvenience from it.'(Mark Twain)


Would do accept to be tortured, here and now, with the promise of 1)  
1000,000 $, 2) total amnesia of the torture?


If no, the Mark Twain argument is less convincing.

Note that Mark twain provides here an argument for after-life. If I  
could come from nowhere, why would that not be possible again? is it  
not the case all the time? Who are we, really?


Bruno











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Re: I signed up to be cryogenically frozen

2014-12-22 Thread John Clark

On Sun, Dec 21, 2014  Bruce Kellett bhkell...@optusnet.com.au wrote:

 No one is denying that death results in oblivion.


Then what are we arguing about?


  But that is not the point.


It isn't?!

 My claim was that no one has experienced oblivion. In common parlance, we
 routinely say that everyone experiences death at the end of their lives.
 Hence the distinction made between death and oblivion in this context.


So this entire death vs oblivion debate has nothing to do with the nature
of reality, it's about grammar and how one particular language out of the
7000 in use on this planet happens to use 2 words.

And as for the fear of death stuff, are we asked to believe that if you
learned right now that tomorrow morning at 9am a firing squad was going to
put several bullets into your brain you wouldn't be the slightest bit
apprehensive and would go to bed tonight just as you always do and sleep
like a baby without a care in the world?

 John K Clark

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Re: I signed up to be cryogenically frozen



On Monday, December 22, 2014 2:58:03 AM UTC, Brent wrote:

 On 12/21/2014 3:47 PM, 'Chris de Morsella' via Everything List wrote: 
  
  -Original Message- 
  From: everyth...@googlegroups.com javascript: [mailto:
 everyth...@googlegroups.com javascript:] On Behalf Of Bruce Kellett 
  Sent: Sunday, December 21, 2014 3:27 PM 
  To: everyth...@googlegroups.com javascript: 
  Subject: Re: I signed up to be cryogenically frozen 
  
  John Clark wrote: 
  On Sun, Dec 21, 2014 , Bruce Kellett bhke...@optusnet.com.au 
 javascript: wrote: 
  
 An instinct for self-preservation is unrelated to whether or not 
  you have a fear of death, or of oblivion 
  
  Unrelated?? Don't be ridiculous! Why the hell do you imagine Evolution 
  invented the fear of death in the first place? 
  Evolution did not invent a fear of death. That is purely cultural, 
 and is not even associated with consciousness -- it comes only with 
 self-awareness and an inner narrative. Evolution gave living things an 
 instinct for self-preservation. But you can have such an instinct operating 
 healthily and still not fear death. Fear of death probably comes from a 
 fear of the unknown, and is linked to the fear of prolonged suffering. But 
 oblivion is oblivion -- it is not something to be feared because no-one has 
 ever experienced it, or can ever experience it. 
  Fear itself (for species that experience this sensation) can become an 
 evolutionary dead end... a paralyzing negative force that diminishes rather 
 than improves an individual organisms chances for survival. The fear of 
 death is often an example of this kind of paralyzing useless fear, 
 providing no evolutionary advantage. It is unlike say the -- fear/memory -- 
 of something hot, the fear being the useful quick shortcut to the executive 
 mind of the memory of past bad experiences with being burned by hot things. 
 This is a useful rapid shortcut to the forebrain that is clearly useful in 
 evolutionary terms. 
  Fear can either help the individual to act quickly or it can paralyze 
 the individual; while a healthy fear can deliver a lightening quick 
 (possibly life-preserving) alert to the conscious mind, paralyzing fear 
 instead, is of no use for an individual's survival, and can often be a 
 distinct evolutionary disadvantage. When someone is paralyzed with fear, 
 they are worse than useless, in a critical life and death situation. 

 I think that's right.  I've never felt fear while in a life-threatening 
 situation.  I felt 
 trepidation before choosing to enter in to the situation.  And I've felt 
 weak in the knees 
 afterward.  But during I've always felt complete calm. 

 Brent 


Yeah...you're a dark man Brent. That wall of silence thing...do you know 
before this experience with you, I had never imagined someone doing that to 
someone else. It had never occurred to me at all. 

I had it researched It's actually a philia - one of the sadomasochistic 
rarities. It's not known in the slap and ticket end of things. It's about 
taking everything away...leaving worthless. It's actual the psychological 
root of most sadistic serial killers. I want to know more about youyou 
did this to someone on that ship is my hunch. 
end 
I think you are ENJOYING MEyou see my pain and drjnk of it,. And so one 
sees the other, the other may look up telescope the other waty. I Se 
You. Thus is my submission: Get every last kittle drop of pleasure from 
that you can...I implore you. Get the most,. Because I'm a very expensive 
little fuckwhore
 




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Re: I signed up to be cryogenically frozen

2014-12-22 Thread meekerdb


On 12/22/2014 4:43 AM, Bruno Marchal wrote:


On 21 Dec 2014, at 20:06, meekerdb wrote:


On 12/20/2014 11:05 PM, Bruce Kellett wrote:
Most legal systems punish murder more than any other crime, and those that have the 
death penalty reserve it for the worst offenders. Most criminals know that if they 
threaten a person with death they are more likely to comply than with other threats. 
Most religions, in the absence of any evidence, promise an afterlife. I think this 
all supports the fact that it is a common human trait to fear oblivion, even if as 
John says it's just a matter of taste.


Stathis Papaioannou


It might be a common human trait to fear oblivion, but it is even more irrational than 
belief in an afterlife.


Bruce 



I do not fear death, in view of the fact that I had been dead for billions and 
billions of years before I was born, and had not suffered the slightest inconvenience 
from it.'(Mark Twain)


Would do accept to be tortured, here and now, with the promise of 1) 1000,000 $, 2) 
total amnesia of the torture?


But then I would have forgotten you owed me a $1,000,000.



If no, the Mark Twain argument is less convincing.

Note that Mark twain provides here an argument for after-life. If I could come from 
nowhere, why would that not be possible again? is it not the case all the time? Who are 
we, really?


Indeed.  As far as I know Twain may have thought another life was possible.  He only 
satirized the Abrahamic idea of an after-life in heaven or hell.  But why would it be HIS 
after-life if he didn't remember his prior life?


Brent
Now then in Earth these people cannot stand much church - an
hour and a quarter is the limit and they draw the line at once a
week.  That is to say, Sunday.  One day in seven; and even then
they do not look forward to it with longing.  And so - consider
what their heaven provides for them: church that lasts forever,
and Sabbath that has not end!  They quickly weary of this brief
hebdomadal Sabbath here, yet they long for that eternal one;
they dream of it, they talk about it, they think they think they
are going to enjoy it - with all their simple hearts they think
they think they are going to be happy in it!
It is because they do not think at all; they only think they
think.
--- Mark Twain, Letters from Earth

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Re: I signed up to be cryogenically frozen

2014-12-22 Thread LizR

On 23 December 2014 at 09:14, meekerdb meeke...@verizon.net wrote:

 Would do accept to be tortured, here and now, with the promise of 1)
 1000,000 $, 2) total amnesia of the torture?

 But then I would have forgotten you owed me a $1,000,000.

 The stipulation was only that you would forget the torture.

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Re: I signed up to be cryogenically frozen



On Monday, December 22, 2014 6:13:59 PM UTC, John Clark wrote:

 On Sun, Dec 21, 2014  Bruce Kellett bhke...@optusnet.com.au javascript:
  wrote:

  No one is denying that death results in oblivion. 


 Then what are we arguing about?
  

  But that is not the point.


 It isn't?!   

  My claim was that no one has experienced oblivion. In common parlance, 
 we routinely say that everyone experiences death at the end of their lives. 
 Hence the distinction made between death and oblivion in this context.


 So this entire death vs oblivion debate has nothing to do with the nature 
 of reality, it's about grammar and how one particular language out of the 
 7000 in use on this planet happens to use 2 words. 

 And as for the fear of death stuff, are we asked to believe that if you 
 learned right now that tomorrow morning at 9am a firing squad was going to 
 put several bullets into your brain you wouldn't be the slightest bit 
 apprehensive and would go to bed tonight just as you always do and sleep 
 like a baby without a care in the world?

  John K Clark


iou'd have to read his posts rom the start, They exhibit some of th e 
stupidest implausible claims a lot of people will ever see.  

wasn't goodthe behaviour in the interior of the house was 

 Br 


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Re: I signed up to be cryogenically frozen



On Monday, December 22, 2014 9:21:40 PM UTC, zibble...@gmail.com wrote:



 On Monday, December 22, 2014 6:13:59 PM UTC, John Clark wrote:

 On Sun, Dec 21, 2014  Bruce Kellett bhke...@optusnet.com.au wrote:

  No one is denying that death results in oblivion. 


 Then what are we arguing about?
  

  But that is not the point.


 It isn't?!   

  My claim was that no one has experienced oblivion. In common parlance, 
 we routinely say that everyone experiences death at the end of their lives. 
 Hence the distinction made between death and oblivion in this context.


 So this entire death vs oblivion debate has nothing to do with the nature 
 of reality, it's about grammar and how one particular language out of the 
 7000 in use on this planet happens to use 2 words. 

 And as for the fear of death stuff, are we asked to believe that if you 
 learned right now that tomorrow morning at 9am a firing squad was going to 
 put several bullets into your brain you wouldn't be the slightest bit 
 apprehensive and would go to bed tonight just as you always do and sleep 
 like a baby without a care in the world?

  John K Clark


 iou'd have to read his posts rom the start, They exhibit some of th e 
 stupidest implausible claims a lot of people will ever see.  

 sorry about thatI fell asleep midsentence. I was going to sum up 
 Bruce's spread of death depictions as one long basically would fail turning 
 test. But then Bruce does this runaway paragraph...running away with 
 himself with creaatve captures of fear. 


So he goes from, max cady to Robert Burns in his ability empathy fear. 

He describes fear very well. but it's not the way I feel fear. People get 
it differently. One of my old pals...he absolutely fearless climbling, 
on motorcycles, in a car...but he one explained and anyway  well understood 
by then, being in a fist fight terrified him...he would beg he would cry. 
Despite the injuries aren't usually that bad, compared toi some i'd seen my 
mate  endure. 

In his case he'd learned to bluff real good. Good bluffers normally 
experience fear the way Brent described. Sounded plausible to me. the 
bluffer has to deliver his lines or his cold steely gaze as if ompletely 
calm. The bluffer knows in seconds whether he's puling it off or bas made a 
mistake. Bluffers have to be good at going into reverse damn quick. The 
bluff ontineus, but now its about bluffing that he just came in there to 
say sorry or whatever. 

Which if the bluffer made a mistake, that means the other guy is hardman. 
Which is the bluffers second blessing  if they reverse quicik enough. A 
hardman sees both bluffs, sees the fear, and goes from angry to bored. 
Bluffers aren't interesting people. Unless after all that bluff...there's 
something special. My pal was speciala decent person. A gentleman. 

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Re: I signed up to be cryogenically frozen



On Monday, December 22, 2014 9:58:08 PM UTC, zibble...@gmail.com wrote:



 On Monday, December 22, 2014 9:21:40 PM UTC, zibble...@gmail.com wrote:



 On Monday, December 22, 2014 6:13:59 PM UTC, John Clark wrote:

 On Sun, Dec 21, 2014  Bruce Kellett bhke...@optusnet.com.au wrote:

  No one is denying that death results in oblivion. 


 Then what are we arguing about?
  

  But that is not the point.


 It isn't?!   

  My claim was that no one has experienced oblivion. In common parlance, 
 we routinely say that everyone experiences death at the end of their 
 lives. 
 Hence the distinction made between death and oblivion in this context.


 So this entire death vs oblivion debate has nothing to do with the 
 nature of reality, it's about grammar and how one particular language out 
 of the 7000 in use on this planet happens to use 2 words. 

 And as for the fear of death stuff, are we asked to believe that if you 
 learned right now that tomorrow morning at 9am a firing squad was going to 
 put several bullets into your brain you wouldn't be the slightest bit 
 apprehensive and would go to bed tonight just as you always do and sleep 
 like a baby without a care in the world?

  John K Clark


 iou'd have to read his posts rom the start, They exhibit some of th e 
 stupidest implausible claims a lot of people will ever see.  

 sorry about thatI fell asleep midsentence. I was going to sum up 
 Bruce's spread of death depictions as one long basically would fail turning 
 test. But then Bruce does this runaway paragraph...running away with 
 himself with creaatve captures of fear. 


 So he goes from, max cady to Robert Burns in his ability empathy fear. 

 He describes fear very well. but it's not the way I feel fear. People get 
 it differently. One of my old pals...he absolutely fearless climbling, 
 on motorcycles, in a car...but he one explained and anyway  well understood 
 by then, being in a fist fight terrified him...he would beg he would cry. 
 Despite the injuries aren't usually that bad, compared toi some i'd seen my 
 mate  endure. 

 In his case he'd learned to bluff real good. Good bluffers normally 
 experience fear the way Brent described. Sounded plausible to me. the 
 bluffer has to deliver his lines or his cold steely gaze as if ompletely 
 calm. The bluffer knows in seconds whether he's puling it off or bas made a 
 mistake. Bluffers have to be good at going into reverse damn quick. The 
 bluff ontineus, but now its about bluffing that he just came in there to 
 say sorry or whatever. 

 Which if the bluffer made a mistake, that means the other guy is hardman. 
 Which is the bluffers second blessing  if they reverse quicik enough. A 
 hardman sees both bluffs, sees the fear, and goes from angry to bored. 
 Bluffers aren't interesting people. Unless after all that bluff...there's 
 something special. My pal was speciala decent person. A gentleman. 


forgot to run the conclusion about bruce. Yeah, he was obviously describing 
his own fear..that Robert burns piece. It's very common.get bullied a 
lot while kid, and you know you're in yur mid 50's bullshitting about 
fearlessness. Implausibly. I seen that before. 

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Re: I signed up to be cryogenically frozen


John Clark wrote:


And as for the fear of death stuff, are we asked to believe that if you 
learned right now that tomorrow morning at 9am a firing squad was going 
to put several bullets into your brain you wouldn't be the slightest bit 
apprehensive and would go to bed tonight just as you always do and sleep 
like a baby without a care in the world?


No, I wouldn't fear death even then. I might worry about the possibility 
of pain. I might worry about the injustice and arbitrariness of it all. 
But mostly I would be concerned for those who depend on me here and now. 
 The degree of this concern would depend on my age when this happens, 
the number of those dependants, and their degree of dependency.


Bruce

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Re: I signed up to be cryogenically frozen


Bruno Marchal wrote:


Would do accept to be tortured, here and now, with the promise of 1) 
1000,000 $, 2) total amnesia of the torture?


These artificial situations are hard to evaluate. I would say, however, 
that people are often prepared to put up with considerable pain and 
inconvenience if they think the endpoint is of sufficient importance. 
Amnesia of the pain and suffering is not usually a relevant consideration.


Bruce

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Re: I signed up to be cryogenically frozen



On Monday, December 22, 2014 10:06:21 PM UTC, Bruce wrote:

 John Clark wrote: 
  
  And as for the fear of death stuff, are we asked to believe that if you 
  learned right now that tomorrow morning at 9am a firing squad was going 
  to put several bullets into your brain you wouldn't be the slightest bit 
  apprehensive and would go to bed tonight just as you always do and sleep 
  like a baby without a care in the world? 

 No, I wouldn't fear death even then. I might worry about the possibility 
 of pain. I might worry about the injustice and arbitrariness of it all. 
 But mostly I would be concerned for those who depend on me here and now. 
   The degree of this concern would depend on my age when this happens, 
 the number of those dependants, and their degree of dependency. 

 Bruce 


Turing Test Fail  

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Re: I signed up to be cryogenically frozen

2014-12-22 Thread LizR

One could repeat the question specifying a painless method of execution,
since bullets might hurt. Can't say I'd be too happy myself.

On 23 December 2014 at 11:06, Bruce Kellett bhkell...@optusnet.com.au
wrote:

 John Clark wrote:


 And as for the fear of death stuff, are we asked to believe that if you
 learned right now that tomorrow morning at 9am a firing squad was going to
 put several bullets into your brain you wouldn't be the slightest bit
 apprehensive and would go to bed tonight just as you always do and sleep
 like a baby without a care in the world?


 No, I wouldn't fear death even then. I might worry about the possibility
 of pain. I might worry about the injustice and arbitrariness of it all. But
 mostly I would be concerned for those who depend on me here and now.  The
 degree of this concern would depend on my age when this happens, the number
 of those dependants, and their degree of dependency.

 Bruce


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Re: I signed up to be cryogenically frozen

2014-12-22 Thread 'Chris de Morsella' via Everything List


zibblequib...@gmail.com wrote:

On Monday, December 22, 2014 10:06:21 PM UTC, Bruce wrote:

John Clark wrote:
 
  And as for the fear of death stuff, are we asked to believe that
if you
  learned right now that tomorrow morning at 9am a firing squad was
going
  to put several bullets into your brain you wouldn't be the
slightest bit
  apprehensive and would go to bed tonight just as you always do
and sleep
  like a baby without a care in the world?

No, I wouldn't fear death even then. I might worry about the
possibility
of pain. I might worry about the injustice and arbitrariness of it all.
But mostly I would be concerned for those who depend on me here and
now.
  The degree of this concern would depend on my age when this happens,
the number of those dependants, and their degree of dependency.

Bruce


Turing Test Fail  


Have you never heard of, or seen, courage in the face of death? Often 
taken as the true test of manhood!


Bruce

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Re: I signed up to be cryogenically frozen

On Monday, December 22, 2014 2:58:03 AM UTC, Brent wrote:
On 12/21/2014 3:47 PM, 'Chris de Morsella' via Everything List wrote:

 -Original Message-
 From: everyth...@googlegroups. com [mailto:everyth...@ googlegroups.com] On 
 Behalf Of Bruce Kellett
 Sent: Sunday, December 21, 2014 3:27 PM
 To: everyth...@googlegroups. com
 Subject: Re: I signed up to be cryogenically frozen

 John Clark wrote:
 On Sun, Dec 21, 2014 , Bruce Kellett bhke...@optusnet.com.au wrote:

    An instinct for self-preservation is unrelated to whether or not
 you have a fear of death, or of oblivion

 Unrelated?? Don't be ridiculous! Why the hell do you imagine Evolution
 invented the fear of death in the first place?
 Evolution did not invent a fear of death. That is purely cultural, and is 
 not even associated with consciousness -- it comes only with self-awareness 
 and an inner narrative. Evolution gave living things an instinct for 
 self-preservation. But you can have such an instinct operating healthily 
 and still not fear death. Fear of death probably comes from a fear of the 
 unknown, and is linked to the fear of prolonged suffering. But oblivion is 
 oblivion -- it is not something to be feared because no-one has ever 
 experienced it, or can ever experience it.
 Fear itself (for species that experience this sensation) can become an 
 evolutionary dead end... a paralyzing negative force that diminishes rather 
 than improves an individual organisms chances for survival. The fear of death 
 is often an example of this kind of paralyzing useless fear, providing no 
 evolutionary advantage. It is unlike say the -- fear/memory -- of something 
 hot, the fear being the useful quick shortcut to the executive mind of the 
 memory of past bad experiences with being burned by hot things. This is a 
 useful rapid shortcut to the forebrain that is clearly useful in evolutionary 
 terms.
 Fear can either help the individual to act quickly or it can paralyze the 
 individual; while a healthy fear can deliver a lightening quick (possibly 
 life-preserving) alert to the conscious mind, paralyzing fear instead, is of 
 no use for an individual's survival, and can often be a distinct evolutionary 
 disadvantage. When someone is paralyzed with fear, they are worse than 
 useless, in a critical life and death situation.

I think that's right.  I've never felt fear while in a life-threatening 
situation.  I felt 
trepidation before choosing to enter in to the situation.  And I've felt weak 
in the knees 
afterward.  But during I've always felt complete calm. 

That has been my personal experience as well those times in my life when I have 
been faced with this scenario. During the period of intensity -- the mind can 
remain clear, calm and focused and afterwards one can feel weak in the 
knees and even get sick to one's stomach from the emotional aftermath of it 
all. I have only been in this state of mind a few times over the course of my 
life, and I have long pondered and been amazed at just how clear and calm, 
collected and in the present I was during those situations... doing what I 
needed to do; knowing clearly what it was I needed to do and acting to do it. 

I have also thought about the quality of the decision making and the actions I 
took -- with the objective of trying to decide -- post facto -- if what I 
actually did was the best course of action to take. Looking back I have been 
unable to find any fault with the -- super-normal clarity and calm decisiveness 
that drove me to act with urgency and immediacy.

In other words, after thinking about it a lot I have concluded that the 
brain/mind acting in this super-normal processing mode brought about by the 
immediacy and intensity of the situation produced good decisions as well as 
rapid ones.

-Chris

Brent

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Re: I signed up to be cryogenically frozen

2014-12-22 Thread meekerdb


On 12/22/2014 1:20 PM, LizR wrote:
On 23 December 2014 at 09:14, meekerdb meeke...@verizon.net 
mailto:meeke...@verizon.net wrote:



Would do accept to be tortured, here and now, with the promise of 1) 
1000,000 $, 2)
total amnesia of the torture?

But then I would have forgotten you owed me a $1,000,000.

The stipulation was only that you would forget the torture.


And after I forgot the torture how would I know I had undergone it and that Bruno 
therefore owed me 1M$?


Of course the serious answer is, it depends on how much I value 1M$ vs the experience of 
being tortured.  One hopes to have pleasant experiences and avoid unpleasant ones.


Brent

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Re: I signed up to be cryogenically frozen

2014-12-22 Thread Stathis Papaioannou

On Tuesday, December 23, 2014, Bruce Kellett bhkell...@optusnet.com.au
wrote:

 zibblequib...@gmail.com wrote:

 On Monday, December 22, 2014 10:06:21 PM UTC, Bruce wrote:

 John Clark wrote:
  
   And as for the fear of death stuff, are we asked to believe that
 if you
   learned right now that tomorrow morning at 9am a firing squad was
 going
   to put several bullets into your brain you wouldn't be the
 slightest bit
   apprehensive and would go to bed tonight just as you always do
 and sleep
   like a baby without a care in the world?

 No, I wouldn't fear death even then. I might worry about the
 possibility
 of pain. I might worry about the injustice and arbitrariness of it
 all.
 But mostly I would be concerned for those who depend on me here and
 now.
   The degree of this concern would depend on my age when this happens,
 the number of those dependants, and their degree of dependency.

 Bruce


 Turing Test Fail


 Have you never heard of, or seen, courage in the face of death? Often
 taken as the true test of manhood!


It wouldn't require courage if death were no big deal.


-- 
Stathis Papaioannou

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Re: I signed up to be cryogenically frozen

2014-12-22 Thread Samiya Illias



 On 23-Dec-2014, at 3:10 am, Bruce Kellett bhkell...@optusnet.com.au wrote:
 
 Bruno Marchal wrote:
 Would do accept to be tortured, here and now, with the promise of 1) 
 1000,000 $, 2) total amnesia of the torture?
 
 These artificial situations are hard to evaluate. I would say, however, that 
 people are often prepared to put up with considerable pain and inconvenience 
 if they think the endpoint is of sufficient importance. Amnesia of the pain 
 and suffering is not usually a relevant consideration.
 
A very real situation of great pain being repeatedly endured because the 
endpoint is of sufficient importance is childbirth that women repeatedly 
endure. I think selective amnesia has a great role to play in this example! 
Samiya 

 Bruce
 
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Re: I signed up to be cryogenically frozen


Stathis Papaioannou wrote:

mailto:bhkell...@optusnet.com.au wrote:
zibblequib...@gmail.com wrote:

Turing Test Fail 


Have you never heard of, or seen, courage in the face of death?
Often taken as the true test of manhood!

It wouldn't require courage if death were no big deal. 



The fact that one doesn't fear death does not imply that one would seek 
death, or that one would not seek to avoid danger.


Bruce

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Re: I signed up to be cryogenically frozen

2014-12-22 Thread Stathis Papaioannou

On 22 December 2014 at 23:04, Bruno Marchal marc...@ulb.ac.be wrote:

 On 22 Dec 2014, at 06:01, Stathis Papaioannou wrote:



 On Monday, December 22, 2014, Samiya Illias samiyaill...@gmail.com wrote:

 If death leads to oblivion, then there isn't much to worry about.


 Atheists worry about death as much as theists.


 Atheists might worry about death, but less so than a believer in Hell. Some
 atheists believe that death is the end of consciousness and thus of worries,
 but if you believe in some after-life, you might fear unknown happenings,
 or suffering, etc.

Perhaps, but some may prefer Hell to oblivion, while others try to
kill themselves after a minor setback. It depends on the person.


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Re: I signed up to be cryogenically frozen


Stathis Papaioannou wrote:

On 22 December 2014 at 23:04, Bruno Marchal marc...@ulb.ac.be wrote:

On 22 Dec 2014, at 06:01, Stathis Papaioannou wrote:
On Monday, December 22, 2014, Samiya Illias samiyaill...@gmail.com wrote:

If death leads to oblivion, then there isn't much to worry about.


Atheists worry about death as much as theists.


Atheists might worry about death, but less so than a believer in Hell. Some
atheists believe that death is the end of consciousness and thus of worries,
but if you believe in some after-life, you might fear unknown happenings,
or suffering, etc.


Perhaps, but some may prefer Hell to oblivion, while others try to
kill themselves after a minor setback. It depends on the person.


An odd notion, that: some people might prefer Hell to Oblivion. But that 
aside, you seem to think that it is only fear of death (and/or Hell) 
that keeps people from widespread mayhem and self-destruction. I must 
admit that I have a healthier view of humanity.


Bruce

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Re: I signed up to be cryogenically frozen

On Sun, Dec 21, 2014 Bruce Kellett bhkell...@optusnet.com.au wrote:


  It might be a common human trait to fear oblivion, but it is even more
 irrational than belief in an afterlife.


The fact that you've obviously lived long enough to learn how to read and
write is proof positive that you too have a healthy fear of death.

  John K Clark

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Re: I signed up to be cryogenically frozen

2014-12-21 Thread Telmo Menezes

Hi John,

What about supplements? Do you take anything to try to extend your lifespan
meanwhile?
There are a lot of ideas, with several degrees of support from research.
One of the is the humble aspirin...

I'm sure people here are familiar with Kurzweil's live long enough to live
forever proposition.

Telmo.

On Thu, Dec 18, 2014 at 6:46 PM, John Clark johnkcl...@gmail.com wrote:

 Although I am in good health I have just signed up with Alcor to have my
 head cryogenically frozen at 320 degrees below zero (77 degrees Kelvin)
 after my death. I am not convinced it will work but I am convinced that if
 it doesn't work it won't cause me to be any deader.  I'm curious if anyone
 else on this list has done the same.

  John K Clark

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Re: I signed up to be cryogenically frozen


On 12/20/2014 11:05 PM, Bruce Kellett wrote:
Most legal systems punish murder more than any other crime, and those that have the 
death penalty reserve it for the worst offenders. Most criminals know that if they 
threaten a person with death they are more likely to comply than with other threats. 
Most religions, in the absence of any evidence, promise an afterlife. I think this all 
supports the fact that it is a common human trait to fear oblivion, even if as John 
says it's just a matter of taste.


Stathis Papaioannou


It might be a common human trait to fear oblivion, but it is even more irrational than 
belief in an afterlife.


Bruce 



I do not fear death, in view of the fact that I had been dead for billions and billions 
of years before I was born, and had not suffered the slightest inconvenience from it.'

--- Mark Twain

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Re: I signed up to be cryogenically frozen

2014-12-21 Thread Bruno Marchal



On 21 Dec 2014, at 19:23, John Clark wrote:


On Sun, Dec 21, 2014 Bruce Kellett bhkell...@optusnet.com.au wrote:

 It might be a common human trait to fear oblivion, but it is even  
more irrational than belief in an afterlife.


The fact that you've obviously lived long enough to learn how to  
read and write is proof positive that you too have a healthy fear of  
death.


Is it not an heathy fear of life? The fear to be wounded or sick, or  
not well?


To get my head frozen is a frightful idea to me, because you might  
give your code to the some madscientist in the future. Surviving might  
be easy, but surviving with some quality of life might not be that  
easy. I would do it, I would the society making some solid contract  
preventing this, but I am not sure I could even find the terms  
disallowing future unknown procedure.

The lives of the pioneers of immortality might be not be easy.

Theologically I tend to think that computationalism can make you  
understand that such material immortality is a sort of self- 
imprisoning. The hinduists might be right: the problem of death is  
more like how to avoid rebirth.


But I am aware that there is a theological trap here, something  
which is in some intensional variants of G* minus G instantiated  
formula, which is true, but wrong if asserted as if justified.


I think that comp can make you understand that we are already  
immortal. The problem is that we might not be who we usually think we  
are. The other problem is that if the fear of death can vanish, it  
might be replaced by a bigger fear of life and possible lives, other  
lives, etc. It replaces the mythical death (from the first person  
point of view it can only be a myth) to the concrete living suffering  
problem.


Bruno






  John K Clark


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Re: I signed up to be cryogenically frozen

2014-12-21 Thread Bruno Marchal



On 21 Dec 2014, at 05:45, Stathis Papaioannou wrote:




On Sunday, December 21, 2014, Bruce Kellett  
bhkell...@optusnet.com.au wrote:

John Clark wrote:
Somebody said that they didn't want to sign up for Cryonics because  
they were worried about ending up as a brain in a vat, and in any  
case they believed in Everett's Many Worlds so it is unnecessary.  
Well, if Everett is correct then you've already signed up for  
Cryonics in some universe and you are going to end up as a brain in  
a vat regardless, so that eliminates that objection for taking  
action now in this universe.  So if there is no reason (other than  
economics) for not doing it is there any positive reason for  
actually doing it? I believe there is.


Consider the possibility that Everett is not correct, or at least  
not 100% correct in the way you think, then Cryonics could literally  
be the difference between life and death, between consciousness and  
oblivion. In my opinion Many Worlds is the best interpretation of  
Quantum Mechanics that has so far been found, but I'm not willing to  
bet my life that a even better one won't be found someday.


 John K Clark


What's wrong with oblivion?

Most legal systems punish murder more than any other crime, and  
those that have the death penalty reserve it for the worst  
offenders. Most criminals know that if they threaten a person with  
death they are more likely to comply than with other threats. Most  
religions, in the absence of any evidence, promise an afterlife. I  
think this all supports the fact that it is a common human trait to  
fear oblivion, even if as John says it's just a matter of taste.



There is a difference between fearing oblivion, and fearing having a  
too much short life. That is why we find the death of our parents very  
sad but somehow acceptable, and we find unbearable and unconsolable  
with the death of a child.


In the fear of death, they might be, or not, a fear of oblivion. Death  
means the end of your (present) life. It is sad, as an ending, but not  
necessarily as a possible state for which no experience is possible,  
or any image we could (not) make of oblivion, if that exists.


For some suffering people death is a hope. As much as I am against  
death penalty, I am against normative rules in the domain of health,  
physical and spiritual. It is not the business of any organizations,  
although it should be a right to trust diverse organizations, (if  
diverse enough), but beware the con shaman/doctors which can only  
pullulate if the diverse criteria is too low.


I don't think it is a matter of taste. It is our basic program: eat  
and mate as much as possible, as long as you can,  ... and then the  
humans/Löbian infer infinity.


Bruno





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Re: I signed up to be cryogenically frozen

2014-12-21 Thread Bruno Marchal



On 19 Dec 2014, at 22:09, LizR wrote:

On 20 December 2014 at 07:04, spudboy100 via Everything List everything-list@googlegroups.com 
 wrote:

Yeah, the brain freeze headache to end all headaches.


My son was in a short movie called Brainfreeze, I think he was 11 at  
the time. He's Bjorn.


http://www.veoh.com/watch/v188754075k7Qdnfj?h1=Brainfreeze+The+Movie



Well done. Almost a parody of the salvia experience, except for the  
end of course ...


Bruno






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Re: I signed up to be cryogenically frozen

2014-12-21 Thread Jason Resch

On Sunday, December 21, 2014, Bruce Kellett bhkell...@optusnet.com.au
wrote:
 Stathis Papaioannou wrote:


 On Sunday, December 21, 2014, Bruce Kellett bhkell...@optusnet.com.au
wrote:

 John Clark wrote:

 Somebody said that they didn't want to sign up for Cryonics
 because they were worried about ending up as a brain in a vat,
 and in any case they believed in Everett's Many Worlds so it is
 unnecessary. Well, if Everett is correct then you've already
 signed up for Cryonics in some universe and you are going to end
 up as a brain in a vat regardless, so that eliminates that
 objection for taking action now in this universe.  So if there
 is no reason (other than economics) for not doing it is there
 any positive reason for actually doing it? I believe there is.

 Consider the possibility that Everett is not correct, or at
 least not 100% correct in the way you think, then Cryonics could
 literally be the difference between life and death, between
 consciousness and oblivion. In my opinion Many Worlds is the
 best interpretation of Quantum Mechanics that has so far been
 found, but I'm not willing to bet my life that a even better one
 won't be found someday.

  John K Clark


 What's wrong with oblivion?

  Most legal systems punish murder more than any other crime, and those
that have the death penalty reserve it for the worst offenders. Most
criminals know that if they threaten a person with death they are more
likely to comply than with other threats. Most religions, in the absence of
any evidence, promise an afterlife. I think this all supports the fact that
it is a common human trait to fear oblivion, even if as John says it's just
a matter of taste.

 Stathis Papaioannou

 It might be a common human trait to fear oblivion, but it is even more
irrational than belief in an afterlife.

Why do you think belief in an afterlife is irrational?

Jason


 Bruce

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Re: I signed up to be cryogenically frozen

2014-12-21 Thread zibblequibble



On Thursday, December 18, 2014 5:46:05 PM UTC, John Clark wrote:

 Although I am in good health I have just signed up with Alcor to have my 
 head cryogenically frozen at 320 degrees below zero (77 degrees Kelvin) 
 after my death. I am not convinced it will work but I am convinced that if 
 it doesn't work it won't cause me to be any deader.  I'm curious if anyone 
 else on this list has done the same.

  John K Clark  


I thought you'd said you were 77 for a moment. Do you tell your age? I'm 
nearly 6

This dude is like a spit for me, save I'm totally better looking and don't 
bump into everything walking down the road 
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=1lyu1KKwC74

 
 

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Re: I signed up to be cryogenically frozen

2014-12-21 Thread spudboy100 via Everything List


Head freezing is the best of a bad lot, so to speak. I am that loony, voice in 
the wilderness, that believes scientists and philosophers should dedicate their 
time to coming up with proposals for preventing death (medical science), 
creating an afterlife (uploading?), and the answer to Humpty Dumpty's dilemma, 
resurrection. I expect to hear the chirping of crickets on this issue, but 
that's my view. 
 
 
-Original Message-
From: John Clark johnkcl...@gmail.com
To: everything-list everything-list@googlegroups.com
Sent: Sun, Dec 21, 2014 1:23 pm
Subject: Re: I signed up to be cryogenically frozen


On Sun, Dec 21, 2014 Bruce Kellett bhkell...@optusnet.com.au wrote:


 

 It might be a common human trait to fear oblivion, but it is even more 
 irrational than belief in an afterlife.



The fact that you've obviously lived long enough to learn how to read and write 
is proof positive that you too have a healthy fear of death. 


  John K Clark

 



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Re: I signed up to be cryogenically frozen


Jason Resch wrote:
On Sunday, December 21, 2014, Bruce Kellett bhkell...@optusnet.com.au 
mailto:bhkell...@optusnet.com.au wrote:

  Stathis Papaioannou wrote:
  On Sunday, December 21, 2014, Bruce Kellett 
bhkell...@optusnet.com.au mailto:bhkell...@optusnet.com.au wrote:

 
  What's wrong with oblivion?
 
   Most legal systems punish murder more than any other crime, and 
those that have the death penalty reserve it for the worst offenders. 
Most criminals know that if they threaten a person with death they are 
more likely to comply than with other threats. Most religions, in the 
absence of any evidence, promise an afterlife. I think this all supports 
the fact that it is a common human trait to fear oblivion, even if as 
John says it's just a matter of taste.

 
  Stathis Papaioannou
 
  It might be a common human trait to fear oblivion, but it is even 
more irrational than belief in an afterlife.


Why do you think belief in an afterlife is irrational?



If you read more carefully, you will see that I did not claim that. What 
I said was that fear of oblivion was more irrational than belief in the 
afterlife. That leaves open the question of whether belief in the 
afterlife is irrational or not.


Bruce

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Re: I signed up to be cryogenically frozen


John Clark wrote:
On Sun, Dec 21, 2014 Bruce Kellett bhkell...@optusnet.com.au 
mailto:bhkell...@optusnet.com.au wrote:
 


  It might be a common human trait to fear oblivion, but it is even
more irrational than belief in an afterlife.


The fact that you've obviously lived long enough to learn how to read 
and write is proof positive that you too have a healthy fear of death.


An instinct for self-preservation is unrelated to whether or not you 
have a fear of death, or of oblivion. I think Mark Twain got it about 
right in the quote Brent gave:


I do not fear death, in view of the fact that I had been dead for 
billions and billions of years before I was born, and had not suffered 
the slightest inconvenience from it.'

--- Mark Twain

Bruce

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Re: I signed up to be cryogenically frozen

2014-12-21 Thread spudboy100 via Everything List


And, the question not to ask Twain would have been, did you feel like this 
when your young daughter died? See, its not just about the splendid ego of the 
jolly, smug, atheist; but involves everybody. As good as the atheist is at 
shuffling off to Buffalo, there' other individuals involved. Its not just about 
us. 

I do not fear death, in view of the fact that I had been dead for 
billions and billions of years before I was born, and had not suffered 
the slightest inconvenience from it.'
 --- Mark Twain


 
 
 
-Original Message-
From: Bruce Kellett bhkell...@optusnet.com.au
To: everything-list everything-list@googlegroups.com
Sent: Sun, Dec 21, 2014 4:31 pm
Subject: Re: I signed up to be cryogenically frozen


John Clark wrote:
 On Sun, Dec 21, 2014 Bruce Kellett bhkell...@optusnet.com.au 
 mailto:bhkell...@optusnet.com.au wrote:
  
 
   It might be a common human trait to fear oblivion, but it is even
 more irrational than belief in an afterlife.
 
 
 The fact that you've obviously lived long enough to learn how to read 
 and write is proof positive that you too have a healthy fear of death.

An instinct for self-preservation is unrelated to whether or not you 
have a fear of death, or of oblivion. I think Mark Twain got it about 
right in the quote Brent gave:

I do not fear death, in view of the fact that I had been dead for 
billions and billions of years before I was born, and had not suffered 
the slightest inconvenience from it.'
 --- Mark Twain

Bruce

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Re: I signed up to be cryogenically frozen

On Sun, Dec 21, 2014 , Bruce Kellett bhkell...@optusnet.com.au wrote:

  An instinct for self-preservation is unrelated to whether or not
you have a fear of death, or of oblivion

Unrelated?? Don't be ridiculous! Why the hell do you imagine Evolution
invented the fear of death in the first place?

  John K Clark

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Re: I signed up to be cryogenically frozen


John Clark wrote:

On Sun, Dec 21, 2014 , Bruce Kellett bhkell...@optusnet.com.au wrote:

  An instinct for self-preservation is unrelated to whether or not
you have a fear of death, or of oblivion

Unrelated?? Don't be ridiculous! Why the hell do you imagine Evolution
invented the fear of death in the first place?


Evolution did not invent a fear of death. That is purely cultural, and 
is not even associated with consciousness -- it comes only with 
self-awareness and an inner narrative. Evolution gave living things an 
instinct for self-preservation. But you can have such an instinct 
operating healthily and still not fear death. Fear of death probably 
comes from a fear of the unknown, and is linked to the fear of prolonged 
suffering. But oblivion is oblivion -- it is not something to be feared 
because no-one has ever experienced it, or can ever experience it.


Bruce

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Re: I signed up to be cryogenically frozen

2014-12-21 Thread LizR

On 22 December 2014 at 08:06, meekerdb meeke...@verizon.net wrote:


 I do not fear death, in view of the fact that I had been dead for
 billions and billions of years before I was born, and had not suffered the
 slightest inconvenience from it.'
 --- Mark Twain

 I have a suspicion that wasn't really Mark Twain, although I know it's
often credited to him. People didn't say billions and billions of years
much in those days (they do a lot more now, perhaps thanks to Carl Sagan).
But I'd be happy to be proved wrong - do you know the original source?

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Re: I signed up to be cryogenically frozen


LizR wrote:
On 22 December 2014 at 08:06, meekerdb meeke...@verizon.net 
mailto:meeke...@verizon.net wrote:



I do not fear death, in view of the fact that I had been dead for
billions and billions of years before I was born, and had not
suffered the slightest inconvenience from it.'
--- Mark Twain

I have a suspicion that wasn't really Mark Twain, although I know it's 
often credited to him. People didn't say billions and billions of 
years much in those days (they do a lot more now, perhaps thanks to 
Carl Sagan). But I'd be happy to be proved wrong - do you know the 
original source?


I merely copied it from Brent -- and he has used it many times over the 
years.


Bruce

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Re: I signed up to be cryogenically frozen

2014-12-21 Thread 'Chris de Morsella' via Everything List


spudboy100 via Everything List wrote:
And, the question *not* to ask Twain would have been, did you feel like 
this when your young daughter died? See, its not just about the 
splendid ego of the jolly, smug, atheist; but involves everybody. As 
good as the atheist is at shuffling off to Buffalo, there' other 
individuals involved. Its not just about us.


I do not fear death, in view of the fact that I had been dead for 
billions and billions of years before I was born, and had not suffered 
the slightest inconvenience from it.'

 --- Mark Twain



You are confusing a number of issues. A person can grieve for the loss 
of a loved one -- the death of the child or close friend, but that does 
not mean that one fears death, or that one should feel that life has 
been 'stolen' from the dead child. The dead child is not around to 
suffer any loss. It is only those who survive that can suffer loss. The 
child is not still there somewhere grieving because bugger me, I am 
dead, and I have lost all the joys that are possible in a long and 
healthy life. The dead are not in a position to suffer -- loss or 
anything else.


Bruce

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RE: I signed up to be cryogenically frozen



-Original Message-
From: everything-list@googlegroups.com 
[mailto:everything-list@googlegroups.com] On Behalf Of Bruce Kellett
Sent: Sunday, December 21, 2014 3:27 PM
To: everything-list@googlegroups.com
Subject: Re: I signed up to be cryogenically frozen

John Clark wrote:
 On Sun, Dec 21, 2014 , Bruce Kellett bhkell...@optusnet.com.au wrote:
 
   An instinct for self-preservation is unrelated to whether or not 
 you have a fear of death, or of oblivion
 
 Unrelated?? Don't be ridiculous! Why the hell do you imagine Evolution 
 invented the fear of death in the first place?

Evolution did not invent a fear of death. That is purely cultural, and is 
not even associated with consciousness -- it comes only with self-awareness 
and an inner narrative. Evolution gave living things an instinct for 
self-preservation. But you can have such an instinct operating healthily and 
still not fear death. Fear of death probably comes from a fear of the 
unknown, and is linked to the fear of prolonged suffering. But oblivion is 
oblivion -- it is not something to be feared because no-one has ever 
experienced it, or can ever experience it.

Fear itself (for species that experience this sensation) can become an 
evolutionary dead end... a paralyzing negative force that diminishes rather 
than improves an individual organisms chances for survival. The fear of death 
is often an example of this kind of paralyzing useless fear, providing no 
evolutionary advantage. It is unlike say the -- fear/memory -- of something 
hot, the fear being the useful quick shortcut to the executive mind of the 
memory of past bad experiences with being burned by hot things. This is a 
useful rapid shortcut to the forebrain that is clearly useful in evolutionary 
terms. 
Fear can either help the individual to act quickly or it can paralyze the 
individual; while a healthy fear can deliver a lightening quick (possibly 
life-preserving) alert to the conscious mind, paralyzing fear instead, is of no 
use for an individual's survival, and can often be a distinct evolutionary 
disadvantage. When someone is paralyzed with fear, they are worse than useless, 
in a critical life and death situation. 
-Chris

Bruce

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Re: I signed up to be cryogenically frozen

On Monday, December 22, 2014, Bruce Kellett bhkell...@optusnet.com.au
wrote:

 John Clark wrote:

 On Sun, Dec 21, 2014 , Bruce Kellett bhkell...@optusnet.com.au wrote:

   An instinct for self-preservation is unrelated to whether or not
 you have a fear of death, or of oblivion

 Unrelated?? Don't be ridiculous! Why the hell do you imagine Evolution
 invented the fear of death in the first place?


 Evolution did not invent a fear of death. That is purely cultural, and
 is not even associated with consciousness -- it comes only with
 self-awareness and an inner narrative. Evolution gave living things an
 instinct for self-preservation. But you can have such an instinct operating
 healthily and still not fear death. Fear of death probably comes from a
 fear of the unknown, and is linked to the fear of prolonged suffering. But
 oblivion is oblivion -- it is not something to be feared because no-one has
 ever experienced it, or can ever experience it.


Following that reasoning, do you believe there is nothing wrong with murder?

-- 
Stathis Papaioannou

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Re: I signed up to be cryogenically frozen


Stathis Papaioannou wrote:


On Monday, December 22, 2014, Bruce Kellett bhkell...@optusnet.com.au 
mailto:bhkell...@optusnet.com.au wrote:


John Clark wrote:

On Sun, Dec 21, 2014 , Bruce Kellett bhkell...@optusnet.com.au
wrote:

  An instinct for self-preservation is unrelated to whether or not
you have a fear of death, or of oblivion

Unrelated?? Don't be ridiculous! Why the hell do you imagine
Evolution
invented the fear of death in the first place?


Evolution did not invent a fear of death. That is purely cultural,
and is not even associated with consciousness -- it comes only with
self-awareness and an inner narrative. Evolution gave living things
an instinct for self-preservation. But you can have such an instinct
operating healthily and still not fear death. Fear of death probably
comes from a fear of the unknown, and is linked to the fear of
prolonged suffering. But oblivion is oblivion -- it is not something
to be feared because no-one has ever experienced it, or can ever
experience it.


Following that reasoning, do you believe there is nothing wrong with murder?


How on earth did you get that from what I said?

Bruce


--
Stathis Papaioannou



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Re: I signed up to be cryogenically frozen

On Sun, Dec 21, 2014  Bruce Kellett bhkell...@optusnet.com.au wrote:

  Evolution gave living things an instinct for self-preservation. But you can 
  have such an instinct operating healthily and still not fear death.

Unrelated? Bob and Don are crossing a street when a large truck turns
a corner and is heading straight for both of them. Bob has a fear of
death but Don has a instinct for self preservation, please tell me
about the unrelated and very different procedures Bob and Don use to
get out of the way.

 It [death] is not something to be feared because no-one has ever experienced 
 it

About 57 billion human beings have lived on this planet over the last
million years, and although many have made similar sounding greeting
card style statements not one of those 57 billion has actually taken
that advice to heart and survived. In the last hour of his life I
don't think Robin Williams feared death, or at least there were other
things that he feared more.

  John K Clark









 John Clark wrote:

 On Sun, Dec 21, 2014 , Bruce Kellett bhkell...@optusnet.com.au wrote:

   An instinct for self-preservation is unrelated to whether or not
 you have a fear of death, or of oblivion

 Unrelated?? Don't be ridiculous! Why the hell do you imagine Evolution
 invented the fear of death in the first place?


 Evolution did not invent a fear of death. That is purely cultural, and is 
 not even associated with consciousness -- it comes only with self-awareness 
 and an inner narrative. Evolution gave living things an instinct for 
 self-preservation. But you can have such an instinct operating healthily and 
 still not fear death. Fear of death probably comes from a fear of the 
 unknown, and is linked to the fear of prolonged suffering. But oblivion is 
 oblivion -- it is not something to be feared because no-one has ever 
 experienced it, or can ever experience it.


 Bruce

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Re: I signed up to be cryogenically frozen

On Sun, Dec 21, 2014  Bruce Kellett bhkell...@optusnet.com.au wrote:

 Following that reasoning, do you believe there is nothing wrong with
 murder?



  How on earth did you get that from what I said?


I don't think Stathis needed to make a very big step to get to that from
what you said.

  John K Clark

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Re: I signed up to be cryogenically frozen


John Clark wrote:

On Sun, Dec 21, 2014  Bruce Kellett bhkell...@optusnet.com.au wrote:


Evolution gave living things an instinct for self-preservation. But you can 
have such an instinct operating healthily and still not fear death.


Unrelated? Bob and Don are crossing a street when a large truck turns
a corner and is heading straight for both of them. Bob has a fear of
death but Don has a instinct for self preservation, please tell me
about the unrelated and very different procedures Bob and Don use to
get out of the way.


They should both jump for safety! Don's instinct for self preservation 
makes this jump instinctive -- and successful. Bob's fear of death leads 
him to freeze in his tracks, and he is killed.





It [death] is not something to be feared because no-one has ever experienced it


Your paraphrase is very telling. I said no-one has ever experienced 
oblivion, not that no-one has died [death]. Plenty of people have died, 
and many have suffered from the experience of dying. But since we all 
die at some point, fearing death is scarcely rational. Fearing suffering 
is rational, however, because we actually experience that and rationally 
try to avoid it.


Bruce



About 57 billion human beings have lived on this planet over the last
million years, and although many have made similar sounding greeting
card style statements not one of those 57 billion has actually taken
that advice to heart and survived. In the last hour of his life I
don't think Robin Williams feared death, or at least there were other
things that he feared more.

  John K Clark










John Clark wrote:

On Sun, Dec 21, 2014 , Bruce Kellett bhkell...@optusnet.com.au wrote:

  An instinct for self-preservation is unrelated to whether or not
you have a fear of death, or of oblivion

Unrelated?? Don't be ridiculous! Why the hell do you imagine Evolution
invented the fear of death in the first place?


Evolution did not invent a fear of death. That is purely cultural, and is not 
even associated with consciousness -- it comes only with self-awareness and an inner 
narrative. Evolution gave living things an instinct for self-preservation. But you can 
have such an instinct operating healthily and still not fear death. Fear of death 
probably comes from a fear of the unknown, and is linked to the fear of prolonged 
suffering. But oblivion is oblivion -- it is not something to be feared because no-one 
has ever experienced it, or can ever experience it.


Bruce

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Re: I signed up to be cryogenically frozen


John Clark wrote:
On Sun, Dec 21, 2014  Bruce Kellett bhkell...@optusnet.com.au 
mailto:bhkell...@optusnet.com.au wrote:


  Following that reasoning, do you believe there is nothing wrong
with murder?

 


  How on earth did you get that from what I said?


I don't think Stathis needed to make a very big step to get to that from 
what you said.



 A small step in the wrong direction can be fatal..

Bruce

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Re: I signed up to be cryogenically frozen

On Monday, December 22, 2014, Bruce Kellett bhkell...@optusnet.com.au
wrote:

 Stathis Papaioannou wrote:


 On Monday, December 22, 2014, Bruce Kellett bhkell...@optusnet.com.au
 mailto:bhkell...@optusnet.com.au wrote:

 John Clark wrote:

 On Sun, Dec 21, 2014 , Bruce Kellett bhkell...@optusnet.com.au
 wrote:

   An instinct for self-preservation is unrelated to whether or
 not
 you have a fear of death, or of oblivion

 Unrelated?? Don't be ridiculous! Why the hell do you imagine
 Evolution
 invented the fear of death in the first place?


 Evolution did not invent a fear of death. That is purely cultural,
 and is not even associated with consciousness -- it comes only with
 self-awareness and an inner narrative. Evolution gave living things
 an instinct for self-preservation. But you can have such an instinct
 operating healthily and still not fear death. Fear of death probably
 comes from a fear of the unknown, and is linked to the fear of
 prolonged suffering. But oblivion is oblivion -- it is not something
 to be feared because no-one has ever experienced it, or can ever
 experience it.


 Following that reasoning, do you believe there is nothing wrong with
 murder?


 How on earth did you get that from what I said?


If there's nothing wrong with oblivion, and murder leads to oblivion, then
there's nothing wrong with murder.


-- 
Stathis Papaioannou

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Re: I signed up to be cryogenically frozen


On 12/21/2014 11:40 AM, Bruno Marchal wrote:
There is a difference between fearing oblivion, and fearing having a too much short 
life. That is why we find the death of our parents very sad but somehow acceptable, and 
we find unbearable and unconsolable with the death of a child.


That fear is your genes fear of not being propagated.

Brent

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Re: I signed up to be cryogenically frozen


Stathis Papaioannou wrote:
On Monday, December 22, 2014, Bruce Kellett bhkell...@optusnet.com.au 
mailto:bhkell...@optusnet.com.au wrote:


Stathis Papaioannou wrote:
On Monday, December 22, 2014, Bruce Kellett
bhkell...@optusnet.com.au mailto:bhkell...@optusnet.com.au
wrote:
John Clark wrote:

On Sun, Dec 21, 2014 , Bruce Kellett
bhkell...@optusnet.com.au
wrote:

  An instinct for self-preservation is unrelated to
whether or not
you have a fear of death, or of oblivion

Unrelated?? Don't be ridiculous! Why the hell do you imagine
Evolution
invented the fear of death in the first place?


Evolution did not invent a fear of death. That is purely
cultural,
and is not even associated with consciousness -- it comes
only with
self-awareness and an inner narrative. Evolution gave living
things
an instinct for self-preservation. But you can have such an
instinct
operating healthily and still not fear death. Fear of death
probably
comes from a fear of the unknown, and is linked to the fear of
prolonged suffering. But oblivion is oblivion -- it is not
something
to be feared because no-one has ever experienced it, or can ever
experience it.


Following that reasoning, do you believe there is nothing wrong
with murder?


How on earth did you get that from what I said?


If there's nothing wrong with oblivion, and murder leads to oblivion, 
then there's nothing wrong with murder. 


You slip too easily from oblivion is not something to be feared to 
oblivion [death] is a universal good to be sought by and for everyone.


Do you really think that the only reason people don't go out and commit 
widespread random murder is that they fear oblivion? The reason most 
people don't commit murder is that they think that murder is wrong. That 
has got nothing to do with fearing anything. Sure, for some religious 
people, the reason they refrain from doing wrong things is fear of 
eternal punishment. But that is a perversion of religion even more than 
it is a lapse of common sense.


Bruce

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Re: I signed up to be cryogenically frozen

On Sun, Dec 21, 2014  PM, Bruce Kellett bhkell...@optusnet.com.au wrote:


  Bob and Don are crossing a street when a large truck turns
 a corner and is heading straight for both of them. Bob has a fear of
 death but Don has a instinct for self preservation, please tell me
 about the unrelated and very different procedures Bob and Don use to
 get out of the way.


  They should both jump for safety! Don's instinct for self preservation
 makes this jump instinctive -- and successful. Bob's fear of death leads
 him to freeze in his tracks, and he is killed.


And for that reason the fear of death was weeded out of the gene pool 500
million years ago. Oh wait it hasn't been.

  It [death] is not something to be feared because no-one has ever
 experienced it


  Your paraphrase is very telling. I said no-one has ever experienced
 oblivion, not that no-one has died [death].


If death doesn't mean oblivion then what the hell does it mean?

 since we all die at some point, fearing death is scarcely rational.


Having a emotion is neither rational nor irrational, it's just having a
emotion. But never mind,  all this started because I said I planned to be
cryogenically frozen someday; explain to me why that demonstrates a greater
fear of death than say going to the doctor or even taking a vitamin pill.


  Fearing suffering is rational, however, because we actually experience
 that

and rationally try to avoid it.


If true and if somebody gets great joy out of having experiences why is it
irrational to fear that stopping but rational to fear something that gives
us great pain will continue?

  John K Clark











 Bruce



  About 57 billion human beings have lived on this planet over the last
 million years, and although many have made similar sounding greeting
 card style statements not one of those 57 billion has actually taken
 that advice to heart and survived. In the last hour of his life I
 don't think Robin Williams feared death, or at least there were other
 things that he feared more.

   John K Clark









  John Clark wrote:

 On Sun, Dec 21, 2014 , Bruce Kellett bhkell...@optusnet.com.au wrote:

   An instinct for self-preservation is unrelated to whether or not
 you have a fear of death, or of oblivion

 Unrelated?? Don't be ridiculous! Why the hell do you imagine Evolution
 invented the fear of death in the first place?


 Evolution did not invent a fear of death. That is purely cultural, and
 is not even associated with consciousness -- it comes only with
 self-awareness and an inner narrative. Evolution gave living things an
 instinct for self-preservation. But you can have such an instinct operating
 healthily and still not fear death. Fear of death probably comes from a
 fear of the unknown, and is linked to the fear of prolonged suffering. But
 oblivion is oblivion -- it is not something to be feared because no-one has
 ever experienced it, or can ever experience it.


 Bruce

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Re: I signed up to be cryogenically frozen


On 12/21/2014 3:27 PM, Bruce Kellett wrote:

John Clark wrote:

On Sun, Dec 21, 2014 , Bruce Kellett bhkell...@optusnet.com.au wrote:

  An instinct for self-preservation is unrelated to whether or not
you have a fear of death, or of oblivion

Unrelated?? Don't be ridiculous! Why the hell do you imagine Evolution
invented the fear of death in the first place?


Evolution did not invent a fear of death. That is purely cultural, and is not even 
associated with consciousness -- it comes only with self-awareness and an inner 
narrative. Evolution gave living things an instinct for self-preservation.


And not exactly self preservation.  As Dawkins point out, it's genetic preservation. 
Many animals will sacrifice themselves to save their progency.


Brent
I'd give up my life for two brothers or eight cousins.
  --- J. B. S. Haldane

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Re: I signed up to be cryogenically frozen

On Monday, December 22, 2014, Bruce Kellett bhkell...@optusnet.com.au
wrote:

 Stathis Papaioannou wrote:

 On Monday, December 22, 2014, Bruce Kellett bhkell...@optusnet.com.au
 mailto:bhkell...@optusnet.com.au wrote:

 Stathis Papaioannou wrote:
 On Monday, December 22, 2014, Bruce Kellett
 bhkell...@optusnet.com.au mailto:bhkell...@optusnet.com.au
 wrote:
 John Clark wrote:

 On Sun, Dec 21, 2014 , Bruce Kellett
 bhkell...@optusnet.com.au
 wrote:

   An instinct for self-preservation is unrelated to
 whether or not
 you have a fear of death, or of oblivion

 Unrelated?? Don't be ridiculous! Why the hell do you
 imagine
 Evolution
 invented the fear of death in the first place?


 Evolution did not invent a fear of death. That is purely
 cultural,
 and is not even associated with consciousness -- it comes
 only with
 self-awareness and an inner narrative. Evolution gave living
 things
 an instinct for self-preservation. But you can have such an
 instinct
 operating healthily and still not fear death. Fear of death
 probably
 comes from a fear of the unknown, and is linked to the fear of
 prolonged suffering. But oblivion is oblivion -- it is not
 something
 to be feared because no-one has ever experienced it, or can
 ever
 experience it.


 Following that reasoning, do you believe there is nothing wrong
 with murder?


 How on earth did you get that from what I said?


 If there's nothing wrong with oblivion, and murder leads to oblivion,
 then there's nothing wrong with murder.


 You slip too easily from oblivion is not something to be feared to
 oblivion [death] is a universal good to be sought by and for everyone.

 Do you really think that the only reason people don't go out and commit
 widespread random murder is that they fear oblivion? The reason most people
 don't commit murder is that they think that murder is wrong. That has got
 nothing to do with fearing anything. Sure, for some religious people, the
 reason they refrain from doing wrong things is fear of eternal punishment.
 But that is a perversion of religion even more than it is a lapse of common
 sense.


I think you're missing the point. If murder leads to oblivion and oblivion
is not bad, then murder is not bad - unless you can think of some other
worse effect of murder.


-- 
Stathis Papaioannou

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Re: I signed up to be cryogenically frozen

On 12/21/2014 3:47 PM, 'Chris de Morsella' via Everything List wrote:

-Original Message-
From: everything-list@googlegroups.com 
[mailto:everything-list@googlegroups.com] On Behalf Of Bruce Kellett
Sent: Sunday, December 21, 2014 3:27 PM
To: everything-list@googlegroups.com
Subject: Re: I signed up to be cryogenically frozen

John Clark wrote:

On Sun, Dec 21, 2014 , Bruce Kellett bhkell...@optusnet.com.au wrote:

   An instinct for self-preservation is unrelated to whether or not
you have a fear of death, or of oblivion

Unrelated?? Don't be ridiculous! Why the hell do you imagine Evolution
invented the fear of death in the first place?

Evolution did not invent a fear of death. That is purely cultural, and is not 
even associated with consciousness -- it comes only with self-awareness and an inner 
narrative. Evolution gave living things an instinct for self-preservation. But you can 
have such an instinct operating healthily and still not fear death. Fear of death 
probably comes from a fear of the unknown, and is linked to the fear of prolonged 
suffering. But oblivion is oblivion -- it is not something to be feared because no-one 
has ever experienced it, or can ever experience it.

Fear itself (for species that experience this sensation) can become an 
evolutionary dead end... a paralyzing negative force that diminishes rather 
than improves an individual organisms chances for survival. The fear of death 
is often an example of this kind of paralyzing useless fear, providing no 
evolutionary advantage. It is unlike say the -- fear/memory -- of something 
hot, the fear being the useful quick shortcut to the executive mind of the 
memory of past bad experiences with being burned by hot things. This is a 
useful rapid shortcut to the forebrain that is clearly useful in evolutionary 
terms.
Fear can either help the individual to act quickly or it can paralyze the 
individual; while a healthy fear can deliver a lightening quick (possibly 
life-preserving) alert to the conscious mind, paralyzing fear instead, is of no 
use for an individual's survival, and can often be a distinct evolutionary 
disadvantage. When someone is paralyzed with fear, they are worse than useless, 
in a critical life and death situation.

I think that's right.  I've never felt fear while in a life-threatening situation.  I felt 
trepidation before choosing to enter in to the situation.  And I've felt weak in the knees 
afterward.  But during I've always felt complete calm.

Brent

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Re: I signed up to be cryogenically frozen


John Clark wrote:
On Sun, Dec 21, 2014  PM, Bruce Kellett bhkell...@optusnet.com.au 
mailto:bhkell...@optusnet.com.au wrote:


  Bob and Don are crossing a street when a large truck turns
a corner and is heading straight for both of them. Bob has a fear of
death but Don has a instinct for self preservation, please tell me
about the unrelated and very different procedures Bob and Don use to
get out of the way.

  They should both jump for safety! Don's instinct for self
preservation makes this jump instinctive -- and successful. Bob's
fear of death leads him to freeze in his tracks, and he is killed.

And for that reason the fear of death was weeded out of the gene pool 
500 million years ago. Oh wait it hasn't been.


  It [death] is not something to be feared because no-one has ever
experienced it

  Your paraphrase is very telling. I said no-one has ever
experienced oblivion, not that no-one has died [death].

If death doesn't mean oblivion then what the hell does it mean?


No one is denying that death results in oblivion. But that is not the 
point. My claim was that no one has experienced oblivion. In common 
parlance, we routinely say that everyone experiences death at the end of 
their lives. Hence the distinction made between death and oblivion in 
this context.




  since we all die at some point, fearing death is scarcely rational.


Having a emotion is neither rational nor irrational, it's just having a 
emotion. But never mind,  all this started because I said I planned to 
be cryogenically frozen someday; explain to me why that demonstrates a 
greater fear of death than say going to the doctor or even taking a 
vitamin pill.


No, it started because you said that you feared oblivion.

... Cryonics could literally be the difference between life and death, 
between consciousness and oblivion.


To which I asked:

What's wrong with oblivion?

and you said:

It's just not my cup of tea,
The idea that oblivion was something to be feared then gradually took 
hold in the conversation.




  Fearing suffering is rational, however, because we actually
experience that 


and rationally try to avoid it.


If true and if somebody gets great joy out of having experiences why is 
it irrational to fear that stopping but rational to fear something that 
gives us great pain will continue?


Who said it was irrational to stop an experience that one finds 
pleasurable? All I am saying is that death comes to us all, and that it 
is irrational to fear death per se, because once you are dead you are 
not around to worry about missing anything.


Bruce

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Re: I signed up to be cryogenically frozen


Stathis Papaioannou wrote:
On Monday, December 22, 2014, Bruce Kellett bhkell...@optusnet.com.au 
mailto:bhkell...@optusnet.com.au wrote:


If there's nothing wrong with oblivion, and murder leads to
oblivion, then there's nothing wrong with murder.


You slip too easily from oblivion is not something to be feared to
oblivion [death] is a universal good to be sought by and for everyone.

Do you really think that the only reason people don't go out and
commit widespread random murder is that they fear oblivion? The
reason most people don't commit murder is that they think that
murder is wrong. That has got nothing to do with fearing anything.
Sure, for some religious people, the reason they refrain from doing
wrong things is fear of eternal punishment. But that is a perversion
of religion even more than it is a lapse of common sense.


I think you're missing the point. If murder leads to oblivion and 
oblivion is not bad, then murder is not bad - unless you can think of 
some other worse effect of murder.



Phrase the argument differently:
Oblivion is good. Murder leads to oblivion. Hence Murder is good.

Do you still think this is a valid inference?

Getting to my destination quickly is good. Driving at 300 kph in a 
built-up zone gets me to my destination quickly. Therefore driving at 
300 kph in a built-up zone is good.


The problem arising from over-simplification is obvious in the second 
example. But you make the same mistake in you initial inference about 
murder.


Bruce

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Re: I signed up to be cryogenically frozen


On 12/21/2014 5:09 PM, Stathis Papaioannou wrote:



On Monday, December 22, 2014, Bruce Kellett bhkell...@optusnet.com.au 
mailto:bhkell...@optusnet.com.au wrote:


Stathis Papaioannou wrote:


On Monday, December 22, 2014, Bruce Kellett bhkell...@optusnet.com.au
mailto:bhkell...@optusnet.com.au wrote:

John Clark wrote:

On Sun, Dec 21, 2014 , Bruce Kellett bhkell...@optusnet.com.au
wrote:

  An instinct for self-preservation is unrelated to whether or 
not
you have a fear of death, or of oblivion

Unrelated?? Don't be ridiculous! Why the hell do you imagine
Evolution
invented the fear of death in the first place?


Evolution did not invent a fear of death. That is purely cultural,
and is not even associated with consciousness -- it comes only with
self-awareness and an inner narrative. Evolution gave living things
an instinct for self-preservation. But you can have such an instinct
operating healthily and still not fear death. Fear of death probably
comes from a fear of the unknown, and is linked to the fear of
prolonged suffering. But oblivion is oblivion -- it is not something
to be feared because no-one has ever experienced it, or can ever
experience it.


Following that reasoning, do you believe there is nothing wrong with 
murder?


How on earth did you get that from what I said?


If there's nothing wrong with oblivion, and murder leads to oblivion, then there's 
nothing wrong with murder.




There's nothing wrong with having a lot of money, and bank robbery leads to having a lot 
of money, then there's nothing wrong with bank robbery.


Brent

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Re: I signed up to be cryogenically frozen

On 12/21/2014 6:14 PM, John Clark wrote:

On Sun, Dec 21, 2014 PM, Bruce Kellett bhkell...@optusnet.com.au
mailto:bhkell...@optusnet.com.au wrote:

Bob and Don are crossing a street when a large truck turns
a corner and is heading straight for both of them. Bob has a fear of
death but Don has a instinct for self preservation, please tell me
about the unrelated and very different procedures Bob and Don use to
get out of the way.

They should both jump for safety! Don's instinct for self preservation
makes this
jump instinctive -- and successful. Bob's fear of death leads him to freeze
in his
tracks, and he is killed.

And for that reason the fear of death was weeded out of the gene pool 500 million years
ago. Oh wait it hasn't been.

It [death] is not something to be feared because no-one has ever
experienced it

Your paraphrase is very telling. I said no-one has ever experienced
oblivion, not
that no-one has died [death].

If death doesn't mean oblivion then what the hell does it mean?

since we all die at some point, fearing death is scarcely rational.

Having a emotion is neither rational nor irrational, it's just having a emotion. But
never mind, all this started because I said I planned to be cryogenically frozen
someday; explain to me why that demonstrates a greater fear of death than say going to
the doctor or even taking a vitamin pill.

The two are not comparable because I doubt that you think the latter two will prevent your
death or even delay it much. So the decisions differ greatly in both cost and benefit.
Most people estimate that the benefit of having their head frozen is very low because
resuscitation is improbable and a bearable second life is even more improbable and death
is still only delayed. So spending 100K$ on that vs. 1K$ on health care which promises
better quality of life, if not more life, seems to indicate you place an extremely high
value on continuation. On the other hand 100K$ is pocket change to some people and even
spending it on insurance against being abducted by aliens might not be indicative of fear.

Brent

Fearing suffering is rational, however, because we actually experience that

and rationally try to avoid it.

If true and if somebody gets great joy out of having experiences why is it irrational to
fear that stopping but rational to fear something that gives us great pain will continue?

John K Clark

Bruce

About 57 billion human beings have lived on this planet over the last
million years, and although many have made similar sounding greeting
card style statements not one of those 57 billion has actually taken
that advice to heart and survived. In the last hour of his life I
don't think Robin Williams feared death, or at least there were other
things that he feared more.

John K Clark

John Clark wrote:

On Sun, Dec 21, 2014 , Bruce Kellett bhkell...@optusnet.com.au
mailto:bhkell...@optusnet.com.au wrote:

An instinct for self-preservation is unrelated to whether or
not
you have a fear of death, or of oblivion

Unrelated?? Don't be ridiculous! Why the hell do you imagine
Evolution
invented the fear of death in the first place?

Evolution did not invent a fear of death. That is purely
cultural, and is
not even associated with consciousness -- it comes only with
self-awareness
and an inner narrative. Evolution gave living things an instinct for
self-preservation. But you can have such an instinct operating
healthily and
still not fear death. Fear of death probably comes from a fear of
the
unknown, and is linked to the fear of prolonged suffering. But
oblivion is
oblivion -- it is not something to be feared because no-one has ever
experienced it, or can ever experience it.

Bruce

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Re: I signed up to be cryogenically frozen


On 12/21/2014 6:59 PM, Bruce Kellett wrote:
Who said it was irrational to stop an experience that one finds pleasurable? All I am 
saying is that death comes to us all, and that it is irrational to fear death per se, 
because once you are dead you are not around to worry about missing anything. 


I might be more accurate to say it is irrational to fear being dead.

Brent
I'm not afraid of dying. I just don't want to be there when it happens.
--- Woody Allen

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Re: I signed up to be cryogenically frozen


meekerdb wrote:


On 12/21/2014 6:59 PM, Bruce Kellett wrote:
Who said it was irrational to stop an experience that one finds 
pleasurable? All I am saying is that death comes to us all, and that 
it is irrational to fear death per se, because once you are dead you 
are not around to worry about missing anything. 


I might be more accurate to say it is irrational to fear being dead.


I'll accept that -- even the Woody Allen quote!



Brent
I'm not afraid of dying. I just don't want to be there when it happens.
--- Woody Allen


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Re: I signed up to be cryogenically frozen

If death leads to oblivion, then there isn't much to worry about. However,
if death doesn't lead to oblivion, but rather to another state of being,
then there may be plenty to plan about!

None of us remember a life before this life. However, we all entered this
life! We entered this life in varied circumstances, and we are all living
this life in very varied circumstances. What if death just leads to another
life, and what if it depends on what we did with this life?

Samiya

On Mon, Dec 22, 2014 at 8:47 AM, meekerdb meeke...@verizon.net wrote:

  On 12/21/2014 6:59 PM, Bruce Kellett wrote:

 Who said it was irrational to stop an experience that one finds
 pleasurable? All I am saying is that death comes to us all, and that it is
 irrational to fear death per se, because once you are dead you are not
 around to worry about missing anything.


 I might be more accurate to say it is irrational to fear being dead.

 Brent
 I'm not afraid of dying. I just don't want to be there when it happens.
 --- Woody Allen

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Re: I signed up to be cryogenically frozen

On Monday, December 22, 2014, Samiya Illias samiyaill...@gmail.com wrote:

 If death leads to oblivion, then there isn't much to worry about.


Atheists worry about death as much as theists.


 However, if death doesn't lead to oblivion, but rather to another state of
 being, then there may be plenty to plan about!

 None of us remember a life before this life. However, we all entered this
 life! We entered this life in varied circumstances, and we are all living
 this life in very varied circumstances. What if death just leads to another
 life, and what if it depends on what we did with this life?

 Samiya





 On Mon, Dec 22, 2014 at 8:47 AM, meekerdb meeke...@verizon.net
 javascript:_e(%7B%7D,'cvml','meeke...@verizon.net'); wrote:

  On 12/21/2014 6:59 PM, Bruce Kellett wrote:

 Who said it was irrational to stop an experience that one finds
 pleasurable? All I am saying is that death comes to us all, and that it is
 irrational to fear death per se, because once you are dead you are not
 around to worry about missing anything.


 I might be more accurate to say it is irrational to fear being dead.

 Brent
 I'm not afraid of dying. I just don't want to be there when it happens.
 --- Woody Allen

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Re: I signed up to be cryogenically frozen

2014-12-21 Thread zibblequibble



On Sunday, December 21, 2014 9:29:17 PM UTC, Bruce wrote:

 Jason Resch wrote: 
  On Sunday, December 21, 2014, Bruce Kellett bhke...@optusnet.com.au 
 javascript: 
  mailto:bhke...@optusnet.com.au javascript: wrote: 
Stathis Papaioannou wrote: 
On Sunday, December 21, 2014, Bruce Kellett 
  bhke...@optusnet.com.au javascript: mailto:bhke...@optusnet.com.au 
 javascript: wrote: 

What's wrong with oblivion? 

 Most legal systems punish murder more than any other crime, and 
  those that have the death penalty reserve it for the worst offenders. 
  Most criminals know that if they threaten a person with death they are 
  more likely to comply than with other threats. Most religions, in the 
  absence of any evidence, promise an afterlife. I think this all supports 
  the fact that it is a common human trait to fear oblivion, even if as 
  John says it's just a matter of taste. 

Stathis Papaioannou 

It might be a common human trait to fear oblivion, but it is even 
  more irrational than belief in an afterlife. 
  
  Why do you think belief in an afterlife is irrational? 


 If you read more carefully, you will see that I did not claim that. What 
 I said was that fear of oblivion 


Fear of Fearing and Loathing Oblivion while There. That's Irrational.

Fearing Oblivion in a Conscious Mental State While Alive and Well Here. 
That's Rational because Oblivion becomes one of many words all exchangeable 
and adequate. But the Fear is the same rational Fear of Death. Mainly 
having to show up and do all the dying.

I don't fear. Dying is very easy. I know, I've killed lots of people. 

- Snake Pliscin
 

 was more irrational than belief in the 
 afterlife. 


The afterlife can only be irrational in the fully resolved logics of the 
Science to Come, which between its internal fields and disciplines Reality 
itself finalized and understood. 

People do it and it's so long assumed Rational that deploying a logics in a 
Science that does not begin to approach resolutions for a finalized Reality 
into statements in logic implicitly presuming this were not so, on the 
contrairy done and dusted Death, the Afterlife and did I mention Death. 
More or less. Done and dusted. Well enough for Science Now to resolve 
finalized Reality. Sufficient that our Logics Now makes the legitimate 
binding ruling, the afterlife is [...your answer here]
 

 That leaves open the question of whether belief in the 
 afterlife is irrational or not. 


That's exactly right too. That's the rational most that this can be taken 
in the Science Now

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Re: I signed up to be cryogenically frozen


On 12/21/2014 9:01 PM, Stathis Papaioannou wrote:



On Monday, December 22, 2014, Samiya Illias samiyaill...@gmail.com 
mailto:samiyaill...@gmail.com wrote:


If death leads to oblivion, then there isn't much to worry about.


Atheists worry about death as much as theists.

However, if death doesn't lead to oblivion, but rather to another state of 
being,
then there may be plenty to plan about!

None of us remember a life before this life. However, we all entered this 
life! We
entered this life in varied circumstances, and we are all living this life 
in very
varied circumstances. What if death just leads to another life, and what if 
it
depends on what we did with this life?



What if it doesn't?  What if pork is the perfect food?  What if women should be educated?  
What if the Quran is the rantings of a delusional illiterate?  Oh...never mind.  No need 
to speculate; there's actually evidence for all those things.


Brent

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Re: I signed up to be cryogenically frozen

On Monday, 22 December 2014, meekerdb meeke...@verizon.net wrote:

  On 12/21/2014 5:09 PM, Stathis Papaioannou wrote:



 On Monday, December 22, 2014, Bruce Kellett bhkell...@optusnet.com.au
 javascript:_e(%7B%7D,'cvml','bhkell...@optusnet.com.au'); wrote:

 Stathis Papaioannou wrote:


 On Monday, December 22, 2014, Bruce Kellett bhkell...@optusnet.com.au
 mailto:bhkell...@optusnet.com.au wrote:

 John Clark wrote:

 On Sun, Dec 21, 2014 , Bruce Kellett bhkell...@optusnet.com.au
 wrote:

   An instinct for self-preservation is unrelated to whether or
 not
 you have a fear of death, or of oblivion

 Unrelated?? Don't be ridiculous! Why the hell do you imagine
 Evolution
 invented the fear of death in the first place?


 Evolution did not invent a fear of death. That is purely cultural,
 and is not even associated with consciousness -- it comes only with
 self-awareness and an inner narrative. Evolution gave living things
 an instinct for self-preservation. But you can have such an instinct
 operating healthily and still not fear death. Fear of death probably
 comes from a fear of the unknown, and is linked to the fear of
 prolonged suffering. But oblivion is oblivion -- it is not something
 to be feared because no-one has ever experienced it, or can ever
 experience it.


 Following that reasoning, do you believe there is nothing wrong with
 murder?


 How on earth did you get that from what I said?


  If there's nothing wrong with oblivion, and murder leads to oblivion,
 then there's nothing wrong with murder.


 There's nothing wrong with having a lot of money, and bank robbery leads
 to having a lot of money, then there's nothing wrong with bank robbery.


Yes, but I did qualify it in a subsequent email with unless you can think
of a worse effect [than oblivion] of murder.

You could have a go at thinking of a worse effect:

Murder is bad because it breaks God's commandment - but then it would not
be bad if if you didn't believe in God.

Murder is bad because it causes suffering in the person being murdered -
but then it would not be bad if you could murder someone without causing
suffering, for example by killing them quickly in their sleep.

Murder is bad because of the loss felt by the family and friends of the
victim - but then it wouldn't be bad if you murdered a homeless person whom
nobody would miss.


-- 
Stathis Papaioannou

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Re: I signed up to be cryogenically frozen



 On 22-Dec-2014, at 11:20 am, Stathis Papaioannou stath...@gmail.com wrote:
 
 
 
 On Monday, 22 December 2014, meekerdb meeke...@verizon.net wrote:
 On 12/21/2014 5:09 PM, Stathis Papaioannou wrote:
 
 
 On Monday, December 22, 2014, Bruce Kellett bhkell...@optusnet.com.au 
 wrote:
 Stathis Papaioannou wrote:
 
 On Monday, December 22, 2014, Bruce Kellett bhkell...@optusnet.com.au 
 mailto:bhkell...@optusnet.com.au wrote:
 
 John Clark wrote:
 
 On Sun, Dec 21, 2014 , Bruce Kellett bhkell...@optusnet.com.au
 wrote:
 
   An instinct for self-preservation is unrelated to whether or 
 not
 you have a fear of death, or of oblivion
 
 Unrelated?? Don't be ridiculous! Why the hell do you imagine
 Evolution
 invented the fear of death in the first place?
 
 
 Evolution did not invent a fear of death. That is purely cultural,
 and is not even associated with consciousness -- it comes only with
 self-awareness and an inner narrative. Evolution gave living things
 an instinct for self-preservation. But you can have such an instinct
 operating healthily and still not fear death. Fear of death probably
 comes from a fear of the unknown, and is linked to the fear of
 prolonged suffering. But oblivion is oblivion -- it is not something
 to be feared because no-one has ever experienced it, or can ever
 experience it.
 
 
 Following that reasoning, do you believe there is nothing wrong with 
 murder?
 
 How on earth did you get that from what I said?
 
 If there's nothing wrong with oblivion, and murder leads to oblivion, then 
 there's nothing wrong with murder.
 
 There's nothing wrong with having a lot of money, and bank robbery leads to 
 having a lot of money, then there's nothing wrong with bank robbery.
 
 Yes, but I did qualify it in a subsequent email with unless you can think of 
 a worse effect [than oblivion] of murder.
 
 You could have a go at thinking of a worse effect:
 
 Murder is bad because it breaks God's commandment - but then it would not be 
 bad if if you didn't believe in God.
 
 Murder is bad because it causes suffering in the person being murdered - but 
 then it would not be bad if you could murder someone without causing 
 suffering, for example by killing them quickly in their sleep.
 
 Murder is bad because of the loss felt by the family and friends of the 
 victim - but then it wouldn't be bad if you murdered a homeless person whom 
 nobody would miss. 
 
Murder is bad because life is a sacred gift! Even a homeless person deserves to 
live his/her life. Who knows, the homeless person may be happier than someone 
living in a palace. 
Samiya 
 
 -- 
 Stathis Papaioannou 

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Re: I signed up to be cryogenically frozen

On Monday, December 22, 2014, Samiya Illias samiyaill...@gmail.com wrote:



 On 22-Dec-2014, at 11:20 am, Stathis Papaioannou stath...@gmail.com
 javascript:_e(%7B%7D,'cvml','stath...@gmail.com'); wrote:



 On Monday, 22 December 2014, meekerdb meeke...@verizon.net
 javascript:_e(%7B%7D,'cvml','meeke...@verizon.net'); wrote:

  On 12/21/2014 5:09 PM, Stathis Papaioannou wrote:



 On Monday, December 22, 2014, Bruce Kellett bhkell...@optusnet.com.au
 wrote:

 Stathis Papaioannou wrote:


 On Monday, December 22, 2014, Bruce Kellett bhkell...@optusnet.com.au
 mailto:bhkell...@optusnet.com.au wrote:

 John Clark wrote:

 On Sun, Dec 21, 2014 , Bruce Kellett bhkell...@optusnet.com.au
 
 wrote:

   An instinct for self-preservation is unrelated to whether or
 not
 you have a fear of death, or of oblivion

 Unrelated?? Don't be ridiculous! Why the hell do you imagine
 Evolution
 invented the fear of death in the first place?


 Evolution did not invent a fear of death. That is purely cultural,
 and is not even associated with consciousness -- it comes only with
 self-awareness and an inner narrative. Evolution gave living things
 an instinct for self-preservation. But you can have such an instinct
 operating healthily and still not fear death. Fear of death probably
 comes from a fear of the unknown, and is linked to the fear of
 prolonged suffering. But oblivion is oblivion -- it is not something
 to be feared because no-one has ever experienced it, or can ever
 experience it.


 Following that reasoning, do you believe there is nothing wrong with
 murder?


 How on earth did you get that from what I said?


  If there's nothing wrong with oblivion, and murder leads to oblivion,
 then there's nothing wrong with murder.


 There's nothing wrong with having a lot of money, and bank robbery leads
 to having a lot of money, then there's nothing wrong with bank robbery.


 Yes, but I did qualify it in a subsequent email with unless you can think
 of a worse effect [than oblivion] of murder.

 You could have a go at thinking of a worse effect:

 Murder is bad because it breaks God's commandment - but then it would not
 be bad if if you didn't believe in God.

 Murder is bad because it causes suffering in the person being murdered -
 but then it would not be bad if you could murder someone without causing
 suffering, for example by killing them quickly in their sleep.

 Murder is bad because of the loss felt by the family and friends of the
 victim - but then it wouldn't be bad if you murdered a homeless person whom
 nobody would miss.

 Murder is bad because life is a sacred gift! Even a homeless person
 deserves to live his/her life. Who knows, the homeless person may be
 happier than someone living in a palace.
 Samiya

 What if life were not a sacred gift, but a phenomenon in a godless
universe with no meaning outside of itself? Would murder be OK then?


-- 
Stathis Papaioannou

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Re: I signed up to be cryogenically frozen


Stathis Papaioannou wrote:
On Monday, 22 December 2014, meekerdb meeke...@verizon.net 
mailto:meeke...@verizon.net wrote:


On 12/21/2014 5:09 PM, Stathis Papaioannou wrote:

On Monday, December 22, 2014, Bruce Kellett

Following that reasoning, do you believe there is nothing
wrong with murder?

How on earth did you get that from what I said?

If there's nothing wrong with oblivion, and murder leads to
oblivion, then there's nothing wrong with murder.


There's nothing wrong with having a lot of money, and bank robbery
leads to having a lot of money, then there's nothing wrong with bank
robbery.


Yes, but I did qualify it in a subsequent email with unless you can 
think of a worse effect [than oblivion] of murder.


You could have a go at thinking of a worse effect:

Murder is bad because it breaks God's commandment - but then it would 
not be bad if if you didn't believe in God.


Murder is bad because it causes suffering in the person being murdered - 
but then it would not be bad if you could murder someone without causing 
suffering, for example by killing them quickly in their sleep.


Murder is bad because of the loss felt by the family and friends of the 
victim - but then it wouldn't be bad if you murdered a homeless person 
whom nobody would miss.



I think you miss the logical point Brent and I have tried to make. Your 
original argument is invalid because you implicitly make the syllogism:


All oblivion is good. Murder leads to oblivion. Therefore murder is good.

The fault is in universalizing the first statement. It really reads: 
there is nothing wrong with oblivion, but some routes to oblivion might 
be wrong. In other words, some oblivion is good, not all oblivion. Once 
you take account of the routes to the oblivion of death, your argument 
collapses.


This is exactly what Brent's example shows. There is nothing wrong with 
having a lot of money, but some ways of obtaining a lot of money are 
definitely wrong. There is no contradiction in holding these ideas 
simultaneously.


So it is not the consequences of murder that are at issue, it is that 
this is an illegitimate route to oblivion. (Although we could open up a 
debate on the morality of euthanasia in appropriate circumstances.)


Bruce

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Re: I signed up to be cryogenically frozen



 On 22-Dec-2014, at 11:38 am, Stathis Papaioannou stath...@gmail.com wrote:
 
 
 
 On Monday, December 22, 2014, Samiya Illias samiyaill...@gmail.com wrote:
 
 
 On 22-Dec-2014, at 11:20 am, Stathis Papaioannou stath...@gmail.com wrote:
 
 
 
 On Monday, 22 December 2014, meekerdb meeke...@verizon.net wrote:
 On 12/21/2014 5:09 PM, Stathis Papaioannou wrote:
 
 
 On Monday, December 22, 2014, Bruce Kellett bhkell...@optusnet.com.au 
 wrote:
 Stathis Papaioannou wrote:
 
 On Monday, December 22, 2014, Bruce Kellett bhkell...@optusnet.com.au 
 mailto:bhkell...@optusnet.com.au wrote:
 
 John Clark wrote:
 
 On Sun, Dec 21, 2014 , Bruce Kellett bhkell...@optusnet.com.au
 wrote:
 
   An instinct for self-preservation is unrelated to whether or 
 not
 you have a fear of death, or of oblivion
 
 Unrelated?? Don't be ridiculous! Why the hell do you imagine
 Evolution
 invented the fear of death in the first place?
 
 
 Evolution did not invent a fear of death. That is purely cultural,
 and is not even associated with consciousness -- it comes   
 only with
 self-awareness and an inner narrative. Evolution gave living things
 an instinct for self-preservation. But you can have such an instinct
 operating healthily and still not fear death. Fear of death probably
 comes from a fear of the unknown, and is linked to the fear of
 prolonged suffering. But oblivion is oblivion -- it is not something
 to be feared because no-one has ever experienced it, or can ever
 experience it.
 
 
 Following that reasoning, do you believe there is nothing wrong with 
 murder?
 
 How on earth did you get that from what I said?
 
 If there's nothing wrong with oblivion, and murder leads to oblivion, 
 then there's nothing wrong with murder.
 
 There's nothing wrong with having a lot of money, and bank robbery leads 
 to having a lot of money, then there's nothing wrong with bank robbery.
 
 Yes, but I did qualify it in a subsequent email with unless you can think 
 of a worse effect [than oblivion] of murder.
 
 You could have a go at thinking of a worse effect:
 
 Murder is bad because it breaks God's commandment - but then it would not 
 be bad if if you didn't believe in God.
 
 Murder is bad because it causes suffering in the person being murdered - 
 but then it would not be bad if you could murder someone without causing 
 suffering, for example by killing them quickly in their sleep.
 
 Murder is bad because of the loss felt by the family and friends of the 
 victim - but then it wouldn't be bad if you murdered a homeless person whom 
 nobody would miss. 
 Murder is bad because life is a sacred gift! Even a homeless person deserves 
 to live his/her life. Who knows, the homeless person may be happier than 
 someone living in a palace. 
 Samiya
 What if life were not a sacred gift, but a phenomenon in a godless universe 
 with no meaning outside of itself? Would murder be OK then? 
 
No. Life is still precious to each individual, and an irreplaceable loss in 
this world, even if there are other worlds we could be alive in or move on to. 
Samiya 

 
 -- 
 Stathis Papaioannou
 -- 
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Re: I signed up to be cryogenically frozen

2014-12-21 Thread LizR

On 22 December 2014 at 20:12, Samiya Illias samiyaill...@gmail.com wrote:


 On 22-Dec-2014, at 11:38 am, Stathis Papaioannou stath...@gmail.com
 wrote:

 What if life were not a sacred gift, but a phenomenon in a godless
 universe with no meaning outside of itself? Would murder be OK then?

 No. Life is still precious to each individual, and an irreplaceable loss
 in this world, even if there are other worlds we could be alive in or move
 on to.


I agree with you up to ...in this world but I can't see what the rest of
the sentence has to do with the original question.

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Re: I signed up to be cryogenically frozen

On Monday, 22 December 2014, Bruce Kellett bhkell...@optusnet.com.au
wrote:

 Stathis Papaioannou wrote:

 On Monday, 22 December 2014, meekerdb meeke...@verizon.net mailto:
 meeke...@verizon.net wrote:

 On 12/21/2014 5:09 PM, Stathis Papaioannou wrote:

 On Monday, December 22, 2014, Bruce Kellett

 Following that reasoning, do you believe there is nothing
 wrong with murder?

 How on earth did you get that from what I said?

 If there's nothing wrong with oblivion, and murder leads to
 oblivion, then there's nothing wrong with murder.

  There's nothing wrong with having a lot of money, and bank robbery
 leads to having a lot of money, then there's nothing wrong with bank
 robbery.


 Yes, but I did qualify it in a subsequent email with unless you can
 think of a worse effect [than oblivion] of murder.

 You could have a go at thinking of a worse effect:

 Murder is bad because it breaks God's commandment - but then it would not
 be bad if if you didn't believe in God.

 Murder is bad because it causes suffering in the person being murdered -
 but then it would not be bad if you could murder someone without causing
 suffering, for example by killing them quickly in their sleep.

 Murder is bad because of the loss felt by the family and friends of the
 victim - but then it wouldn't be bad if you murdered a homeless person whom
 nobody would miss.



 I think you miss the logical point Brent and I have tried to make. Your
 original argument is invalid because you implicitly make the syllogism:

 All oblivion is good. Murder leads to oblivion. Therefore murder is good.

 The fault is in universalizing the first statement. It really reads: there
 is nothing wrong with oblivion, but some routes to oblivion might be wrong.
 In other words, some oblivion is good, not all oblivion. Once you take
 account of the routes to the oblivion of death, your argument collapses.

 This is exactly what Brent's example shows. There is nothing wrong with
 having a lot of money, but some ways of obtaining a lot of money are
 definitely wrong. There is no contradiction in holding these ideas
 simultaneously.

 So it is not the consequences of murder that are at issue, it is that this
 is an illegitimate route to oblivion. (Although we could open up a debate
 on the morality of euthanasia in appropriate circumstances.)


As I said, I qualified my statement by saying unless you can think of a
worse effect [than oblivion] of murder. Robbing a bank is wrong not
because having lots of money is wrong, but for other reasons. If you
believe there is nothing wrong with oblivion, what other reasons are there
for murder being wrong?


-- 
Stathis Papaioannou

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Re: I signed up to be cryogenically frozen


On 12/21/2014 10:20 PM, Stathis Papaioannou wrote:




If there's nothing wrong with oblivion, and murder leads to oblivion, then 
there's
nothing wrong with murder.



There's nothing wrong with having a lot of money, and bank robbery leads to 
having a
lot of money, then there's nothing wrong with bank robbery.


Yes, but I did qualify it in a subsequent email with unless you can think of a worse 
effect [than oblivion] of murder.


Why should it have to be worse than oblivion.  Any bad effect that outweighs the good 
effect should be enough to make murder wrong. Of course the reason society makes murder 
wrong is that people don't like being killed, even if they were indifferent about being dead.


Brent

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Re: I signed up to be cryogenically frozen


Stathis Papaioannou wrote:



On Monday, 22 December 2014, Bruce Kellett bhkell...@optusnet.com.au 
mailto:bhkell...@optusnet.com.au wrote:


Stathis Papaioannou wrote:

On Monday, 22 December 2014, meekerdb meeke...@verizon.net
mailto:meeke...@verizon.net wrote:

On 12/21/2014 5:09 PM, Stathis Papaioannou wrote:

On Monday, December 22, 2014, Bruce Kellett

Following that reasoning, do you believe there
is nothing
wrong with murder?

How on earth did you get that from what I said?

If there's nothing wrong with oblivion, and murder leads to
oblivion, then there's nothing wrong with murder.

There's nothing wrong with having a lot of money, and bank
robbery
leads to having a lot of money, then there's nothing wrong
with bank
robbery.


Yes, but I did qualify it in a subsequent email with unless you
can think of a worse effect [than oblivion] of murder.

You could have a go at thinking of a worse effect:

Murder is bad because it breaks God's commandment - but then it
would not be bad if if you didn't believe in God.

Murder is bad because it causes suffering in the person being
murdered - but then it would not be bad if you could murder
someone without causing suffering, for example by killing them
quickly in their sleep.

Murder is bad because of the loss felt by the family and friends
of the victim - but then it wouldn't be bad if you murdered a
homeless person whom nobody would miss.



I think you miss the logical point Brent and I have tried to make.
Your original argument is invalid because you implicitly make the
syllogism:

All oblivion is good. Murder leads to oblivion. Therefore murder is
good.

The fault is in universalizing the first statement. It really reads:
there is nothing wrong with oblivion, but some routes to oblivion
might be wrong. In other words, some oblivion is good, not all
oblivion. Once you take account of the routes to the oblivion of
death, your argument collapses.

This is exactly what Brent's example shows. There is nothing wrong
with having a lot of money, but some ways of obtaining a lot of
money are definitely wrong. There is no contradiction in holding
these ideas simultaneously.

So it is not the consequences of murder that are at issue, it is
that this is an illegitimate route to oblivion. (Although we could
open up a debate on the morality of euthanasia in appropriate
circumstances.)


As I said, I qualified my statement by saying unless you can think of a 
worse effect [than oblivion] of murder. Robbing a bank is wrong not 
because having lots of money is wrong, but for other reasons. If you 
believe there is nothing wrong with oblivion, what other reasons are 
there for murder being wrong?


It is against the law? It is not the consequences of murder for the 
individual that are the issue. Most societies make laws against murder 
because society could not really function cohesively if there were no 
sanction against indiscriminate murder. It is a matter of social ethics, 
part of the contract that we make with each other in order to be able to 
live together in relative harmony. It is not that there are worse 
effects than oblivion for the murdered person, but that society could 
not function without prohibition of murder. Just as for bank robbery.


Bruce

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Re: I signed up to be cryogenically frozen