date:20180208

   Kiitos Arto, minÃÂ¤ tykkÃÂ¤t hyvÃÂ¤in kitarristin. Cool album

   On Fri, Feb 9, 2018 at 1:14 AM, Arto Wikla <[1]wi...@cs.dartmouth.edu>
   wrote:

 Dear lutenists
 Here is my favorite eastern-western music from my youth:
 THE PAUL BUTTERFIELD BLUES BAND - EAST WEST (1966)
   [2]https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=dwMqBvBLJio
 (btw: that is good music even today! :-) )
 Perhaps Tristan will find some similiar ragas?
 best,
 Arto

   On 09/02/18 01:57, Tristan von Neumann wrote:

 Yep, and Apes don't look like Humans. There is no other relation
 whatsoever, pure coincidence that they look alike
 If you had listened as much to the tracks while finding the right
 spot to make it sound ok without too much manipulation, you would
 notice more that just modes.
 But as I said - if you don't want to hear the gestures, and how
 Sweelinck directly refers to the Raga (and Dowland too), then you
 don't listen as closely.
 If we sat together in front of the stereo and I could point it out,
 you would probably be surprised not to have heard it.
 Am 09.02.2018 um 00:39 schrieb Susan Sandman:

 I do hear similarities between the two. But I hear similarities
 among lots of musics Ã¢ from Steve Reich to "space music" to
 troubadour songs in similar modes, and do not think it means direct
 contact or transmission of the sort I think you are asserting.
 I find the unique musical gestures of each more interest, and the
 unique tone colors of the instruments used more important  than
 unifying features of mode or raga however illustrated.
 Susan
 On Thu, Feb 8, 2018 at 10:38 AM Tristan von Neumann
 <[3]tristanvonneum...@gmx.de >
 wrote:
   Thank you Susan!
   I am aware of Schenker - I studied musicology back in the day.
   This would be indeed the best approach, but I guess it is
 possible to
   find the exact match when analyzing just what is there.
   Indian understanding - as it appears to me - basically *is*
 Schenkerian,
   so I guess this step could be skipped.
   What is your opinion about the Echo Fantasy?
 [5]https://soundcloud.com/tristan-von-neumann/sweelinck-echo-
 fantasia-ex-a-raga-asawari
   Am 08.02.2018 um 16:31 schrieb Susan Sandman:
 > [6]https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Schenkerian_analysis
 >
 > Perhaps the theoretical approach of Schenker would be
 helpful to
 > communicate the similarities you are finding between the
 Bull
   Fantasia,
 > Raga Yaman and maybe Castello.   Schenker's system is
 based on the
 > dynamic pull of scale tones. While to me the
 particularities of the
 > musical elaborations unique to each composer/era/culture
 is of more
 > interest, his approach might clarify the unity of what you
 are
   hearing.
 > Please consult the above link.
 > Susan
 > [7]www.ElizabethanConversation.com
   <[8]http://www.ElizabethanConversation.com>
   <[9]http://www.ElizabethanConversation.com>
 >
 > On Wed, Feb 7, 2018 at 7:02 PM Tristan von Neumann
 > <[10]tristanvonneum...@gmx.de
 
   >>
   wrote:
 >
 >  I would not dare to call you a fool if you actually
 took your
   time to
 >  listen :)
 >  In case of my experiments I grant you, there is room
 for doubt.
 >  But with Fantasy X and XII: Did you *really* listen?
 >  (I hope your disbelief did not impair your hearing.
 This
   human trait has
 >  been proven scientifically.)
 >  And if it's not connected, I would be very happy to
 know:
 >  how do you explain the total weirdness of especially
 those two
 >  fantasies? There is nothing remotely resembling this,
 and I
   have played
 >  and listened a lot. I would very much love to get
 other
   keyboard pieces
 >  in that style then, regardless :)
 >
 >  However (also to you, G. C.) - it is not the
 compatible mode,
   it is also
 >  basic motives of the Raga that can be found exactly
 at the
   right place,
 >  and the matching .
 >  I have yet to organize a real meeting between for
 example a
   singer and a
 >  keyboardist.
 >  If anything, this could be a nice intercultural
 exchange.
 >

[LUTE] Re: John Bull's Fantasy XII is Raga Yaman

2018-02-08 Thread Arto Wikla

Dear lutenists

Here is my favorite eastern-western music from my youth:

THE PAUL BUTTERFIELD BLUES BAND - EAST WEST (1966)
  https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=dwMqBvBLJio
(btw: that is good music even today! :-) )

Perhaps Tristan will find some similiar ragas?

best,
Arto

On 09/02/18 01:57, Tristan von Neumann wrote:
Yep, and Apes don't look like Humans. There is no other relation 
whatsoever, pure coincidence that they look alike

If you had listened as much to the tracks while finding the right spot 
to make it sound ok without too much manipulation, you would notice more 
that just modes.
But as I said - if you don't want to hear the gestures, and how 
Sweelinck directly refers to the Raga (and Dowland too), then you don't 
listen as closely.
If we sat together in front of the stereo and I could point it out, you 
would probably be surprised not to have heard it.

Am 09.02.2018 um 00:39 schrieb Susan Sandman:
I do hear similarities between the two. But I hear similarities among 
lots of musics — from Steve Reich to “space music” to troubadour songs 
in similar modes, and do not think it means direct contact or 
transmission of the sort I think you are asserting.

I find the unique musical gestures of each more interest, and the 
unique tone colors of the instruments used more important  than 
unifying features of mode or raga however illustrated.

Susan

On Thu, Feb 8, 2018 at 10:38 AM Tristan von Neumann 
> wrote:

    Thank you Susan!
    I am aware of Schenker - I studied musicology back in the day.
    This would be indeed the best approach, but I guess it is possible to
    find the exact match when analyzing just what is there.
    Indian understanding - as it appears to me - basically *is* 
Schenkerian,

    so I guess this step could be skipped.

    What is your opinion about the Echo Fantasy?

https://soundcloud.com/tristan-von-neumann/sweelinck-echo-fantasia-ex-a-raga-asawari 

    Am 08.02.2018 um 16:31 schrieb Susan Sandman:
 > https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Schenkerian_analysis
 >
 > Perhaps the theoretical approach of Schenker would be helpful to
 > communicate the similarities you are finding between the Bull
    Fantasia,
 > Raga Yaman and maybe Castello.  Schenker’s system is based on the
 > dynamic pull of scale tones. While to me the particularities of 
the
 > musical elaborations unique to each composer/era/culture  is of 
more

 > interest, his approach might clarify the unity of what you are
    hearing.
 > Please consult the above link.
 > Susan
 > www.ElizabethanConversation.com

 >
 > On Wed, Feb 7, 2018 at 7:02 PM Tristan von Neumann
 > 
    >>
    wrote:
 >
 >     I would not dare to call you a fool if you actually took your
    time to
 >     listen :)
 >     In case of my experiments I grant you, there is room for 
doubt.

 >     But with Fantasy X and XII: Did you *really* listen?
 >     (I hope your disbelief did not impair your hearing. This
    human trait has
 >     been proven scientifically.)
 >     And if it's not connected, I would be very happy to know:
 >     how do you explain the total weirdness of especially those two
 >     fantasies? There is nothing remotely resembling this, and I
    have played
 >     and listened a lot. I would very much love to get other
    keyboard pieces
 >     in that style then, regardless :)
 >
 >     However (also to you, G. C.) - it is not the compatible mode,
    it is also
 >     basic motives of the Raga that can be found exactly at the
    right place,
 >     and the matching .
 >     I have yet to organize a real meeting between for example a
    singer and a
 >     keyboardist.
 >     If anything, this could be a nice intercultural exchange.
 >
 >     My old musicology professor by the way does agree with the
    finding.
 >     Though due to tempo inconsistecies (if oyu change tempo
    digitally, it
 >     sound terrible) I did not post it:
 >     If a Hindustani flute player matches Fantasy XII, it sounds
    like a
 >     Castello Sonata. I will try and prepare a mix with that, but
    I have not
 >     yet found the right music source.
 >     Anyone interested may get an mp3 in private email.
 >
 >
 >     Am 07.02.2018 um 23:32 schrieb Arto Wikla:
 >      > Well, I listened carefully all those example combinations
    of Bull's
 >      > harpsichord pieces and the suggested similiar(?) raga
 >     performances, and
 >      > sincerely I could not find much in common between them,
    just two
 >      > different sound clips

[LUTE] Re: the art of the Fusion

   Question: Did Miles flunk it?
   Answer: Well, that should perhaps be kept in the ears of the
   behearer...
   Question: But the whole "fusion" setup, musically, wasn't it /isn't it
   now, so "Dated".
   Answer: But look at what came out of it, Keith Jarrett f. ex.
   Question: Was he kinda at the time "loosing it"?
   Answer: Miles never lost it. He transcended and will live forever in
   our greatest admiration :D
   G.

   On Fri, Feb 9, 2018 at 12:44 AM, Alain Veylit
   <[1]al...@musickshandmade.com> wrote:

   My thought exactly: Ravi + Yehudi was cool. Django and Stephane too
   were cool. Or that Indian guy, George Harrison, playing the sitar on a
   Beatles song. Even Gogol Bordello is a good mix. All physicists will
   tell you: fusion is very difficult to do well. Miles Davis flunked it.
   On 02/08/2018 11:33 AM, G. C. wrote:

 Doctor's Orders:
 The patient is to calm down by listening to some real "east
 meets west"
 music, in the form of Ravi Shankar meets Yehudi Menuhin, to
 relax fom
 his overexited state of mind.
 A cup of bhang lassi before bedtime is also adviced.
 Best
 G.
 On Thu, Feb 8, 2018 at 1:25 PM, Tristan von Neumann
 <[1][2]tristanvonneum...@gmx.de> wrote:
   Folks, *this is my final offer to you*
   Whoever does *not* hear that this is the same piece, is
 amusical, or
   can't accept the f***ing truth. Seriously guys.
   The Fantasia starts so that both pieces end simultaneously.
   Slight tempo fluctuations due to the organ player.
   Nevertheless, *you WILL hear it* too.
   [2][3]https://soundcloud.com/tris
 tan-von-neumann/sweelinck-echo-
   fantasia-ex-a-raga-asawari
   To get on or off this list see list information at
   [3][4]http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html
 --
 References
 1. mailto:[5]tristanvonneum...@gmx.de
 2. [6]https://soundcloud.com/tristan
 -von-neumann/sweelinck-echo-fantasia-ex-a-raga-asawari
 3. [7]http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html

   --

References

   1. mailto:al...@musickshandmade.com
   2. mailto:tristanvonneum...@gmx.de
   3. https://soundcloud.com/tristan-von-neumann/sweelinck-echo-
   4. http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html
   5. mailto:tristanvonneum...@gmx.de
   6. 
https://soundcloud.com/tristan-von-neumann/sweelinck-echo-fantasia-ex-a-raga-asawari
   7. http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html

[LUTE] Re: John Bull's Fantasy XII is Raga Yaman

Yep, and Apes don't look like Humans. There is no other relation 
whatsoever, pure coincidence that they look alike

If you had listened as much to the tracks while finding the right spot 
to make it sound ok without too much manipulation, you would notice more 
that just modes.
But as I said - if you don't want to hear the gestures, and how 
Sweelinck directly refers to the Raga (and Dowland too), then you don't 
listen as closely.
If we sat together in front of the stereo and I could point it out, you 
would probably be surprised not to have heard it.

Am 09.02.2018 um 00:39 schrieb Susan Sandman:
I do hear similarities between the two. But I hear similarities among 
lots of musics — from Steve Reich to “space music” to troubadour songs 
in similar modes, and do not think it means direct contact or 
transmission of the sort I think you are asserting.

I find the unique musical gestures of each more interest, and the unique 
tone colors of the instruments used more important  than unifying 
features of mode or raga however illustrated.

Susan

On Thu, Feb 8, 2018 at 10:38 AM Tristan von Neumann 
> wrote:

Thank you Susan!
I am aware of Schenker - I studied musicology back in the day.
This would be indeed the best approach, but I guess it is possible to
find the exact match when analyzing just what is there.
Indian understanding - as it appears to me - basically *is* Schenkerian,
so I guess this step could be skipped.

What is your opinion about the Echo Fantasy?

https://soundcloud.com/tristan-von-neumann/sweelinck-echo-fantasia-ex-a-raga-asawari

Am 08.02.2018 um 16:31 schrieb Susan Sandman:
 > https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Schenkerian_analysis
 >
 > Perhaps the theoretical approach of Schenker would be helpful to
 > communicate the similarities you are finding between the Bull
Fantasia,
 > Raga Yaman and maybe Castello.  Schenker’s system is based on the
 > dynamic pull of scale tones. While to me the particularities of the
 > musical elaborations unique to each composer/era/culture  is of more
 > interest, his approach might clarify the unity of what you are
hearing.
 > Please consult the above link.
 > Susan
 > www.ElizabethanConversation.com

 >
 > On Wed, Feb 7, 2018 at 7:02 PM Tristan von Neumann
 > 
>>
wrote:
 >
 >     I would not dare to call you a fool if you actually took your
time to
 >     listen :)
 >     In case of my experiments I grant you, there is room for doubt.
 >     But with Fantasy X and XII: Did you *really* listen?
 >     (I hope your disbelief did not impair your hearing. This
human trait has
 >     been proven scientifically.)
 >     And if it's not connected, I would be very happy to know:
 >     how do you explain the total weirdness of especially those two
 >     fantasies? There is nothing remotely resembling this, and I
have played
 >     and listened a lot. I would very much love to get other
keyboard pieces
 >     in that style then, regardless :)
 >
 >     However (also to you, G. C.) - it is not the compatible mode,
it is also
 >     basic motives of the Raga that can be found exactly at the
right place,
 >     and the matching .
 >     I have yet to organize a real meeting between for example a
singer and a
 >     keyboardist.
 >     If anything, this could be a nice intercultural exchange.
 >
 >     My old musicology professor by the way does agree with the
finding.
 >     Though due to tempo inconsistecies (if oyu change tempo
digitally, it
 >     sound terrible) I did not post it:
 >     If a Hindustani flute player matches Fantasy XII, it sounds
like a
 >     Castello Sonata. I will try and prepare a mix with that, but
I have not
 >     yet found the right music source.
 >     Anyone interested may get an mp3 in private email.
 >
 >
 >     Am 07.02.2018 um 23:32 schrieb Arto Wikla:
 >      > Well, I listened carefully all those example combinations
of Bull's
 >      > harpsichord pieces and the suggested similiar(?) raga
 >     performances, and
 >      > sincerely I could not find much in common between them,
just two
 >      > different sound clips connected. Tristan von Neumann is of
course
 >     free
 >      > to name me also "fool" even after I really listened his
medleys, but
 >      > while I definitely strongly disagree his idea... ;-)
 >      >
 >      > all the best,
 >      >
 >      > Arto
 >      >
 >      > On 07/02/18 07:53,

[LUTE] Re: Sweelinck's Echo Fantasia ex A is a direct copy of Raga Asawari

You've convinced me!

Eugene

-Original Message-
From: lute-...@cs.dartmouth.edu [mailto:lute-...@cs.dartmouth.edu] On Behalf Of 
G. C.
Sent: Thursday, February 08, 2018 2:34 PM
To: lutelist Net
Subject: [LUTE] Re: Sweelinck's Echo Fantasia ex A is a *direct copy* of Raga 
Asawari

   Doctor's Orders:
   The patient is to calm down by listening to some real "east meets west"
   music, in the form of Ravi Shankar meets Yehudi Menuhin, to relax fom
   his overexited state of mind.
   A cup of bhang lassi before bedtime is also adviced.
   Best
   G.

   On Thu, Feb 8, 2018 at 1:25 PM, Tristan von Neumann
   <[1]tristanvonneum...@gmx.de> wrote:

 Folks, *this is my final offer to you*
 Whoever does *not* hear that this is the same piece, is amusical, or
 can't accept the f***ing truth. Seriously guys.
 The Fantasia starts so that both pieces end simultaneously.
 Slight tempo fluctuations due to the organ player.
 Nevertheless, *you WILL hear it* too.
 [2]https://soundcloud.com/tristan-von-neumann/sweelinck-echo-
 fantasia-ex-a-raga-asawari
 To get on or off this list see list information at
 [3]http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html

   --

References

   1. mailto:tristanvonneum...@gmx.de
   2. 
https://soundcloud.com/tristan-von-neumann/sweelinck-echo-fantasia-ex-a-raga-asawari
   3. http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html

[LUTE] Re: the art of the Fusion

2018-02-08 Thread Alain Veylit

My thought exactly: Ravi + Yehudi was cool. Django and Stephane too were 
cool. Or that Indian guy, George Harrison, playing the sitar on a 
Beatles song. Even Gogol Bordello is a good mix. All physicists will 
tell you: fusion is very difficult to do well. Miles Davis flunked it.




On 02/08/2018 11:33 AM, G. C. wrote:

Doctor's Orders:
The patient is to calm down by listening to some real "east meets west"
music, in the form of Ravi Shankar meets Yehudi Menuhin, to relax fom
his overexited state of mind.
A cup of bhang lassi before bedtime is also adviced.
Best
G.

On Thu, Feb 8, 2018 at 1:25 PM, Tristan von Neumann
<[1]tristanvonneum...@gmx.de> wrote:

  Folks, *this is my final offer to you*
  Whoever does *not* hear that this is the same piece, is amusical, or
  can't accept the f***ing truth. Seriously guys.
  The Fantasia starts so that both pieces end simultaneously.
  Slight tempo fluctuations due to the organ player.
  Nevertheless, *you WILL hear it* too.
  [2]https://soundcloud.com/tristan-von-neumann/sweelinck-echo-
  fantasia-ex-a-raga-asawari
  To get on or off this list see list information at
  [3]http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html

--

References

1. mailto:tristanvonneum...@gmx.de
2. 
https://soundcloud.com/tristan-von-neumann/sweelinck-echo-fantasia-ex-a-raga-asawari
3. http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html

[LUTE] Re: John Bull's Fantasy XII is Raga Yaman

2018-02-08 Thread Susan Sandman

   I do hear similarities between the two. But I hear similarities among
   lots of musics Ã¢ from Steve Reich to "space music" to troubadour songs
   in similar modes, and do not think it means direct contact or
   transmission of the sort I think you are asserting.
   I find the unique musical gestures of each more interest, and the
   unique tone colors of the instruments used more important  than
   unifying features of mode or raga however illustrated.

   Susan

   On Thu, Feb 8, 2018 at 10:38 AM Tristan von Neumann
   <[1]tristanvonneum...@gmx.de> wrote:

 Thank you Susan!
 I am aware of Schenker - I studied musicology back in the day.
 This would be indeed the best approach, but I guess it is possible
 to
 find the exact match when analyzing just what is there.
 Indian understanding - as it appears to me - basically *is*
 Schenkerian,
 so I guess this step could be skipped.
 What is your opinion about the Echo Fantasy?
 [2]https://soundcloud.com/tristan-von-neumann/sweelinck-echo-fantasi
 a-ex-a-raga-asawari
 Am 08.02.2018 um 16:31 schrieb Susan Sandman:
 > [3]https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Schenkerian_analysis
 >
 > Perhaps the theoretical approach of Schenker would be helpful to
 > communicate the similarities you are finding between the Bull
 Fantasia,
 > Raga Yaman and maybe Castello.   Schenker's system is based on the
 > dynamic pull of scale tones. While to me the particularities of
 the
 > musical elaborations unique to each composer/era/culture  is of
 more
 > interest, his approach might clarify the unity of what you are
 hearing.
 > Please consult the above link.
 > Susan
 > [4]www.ElizabethanConversation.com
 <[5]http://www.ElizabethanConversation.com>
 >
 > On Wed, Feb 7, 2018 at 7:02 PM Tristan von Neumann
 > <[6]tristanvonneum...@gmx.de >
 wrote:
 >
 >  I would not dare to call you a fool if you actually took your
 time to
 >  listen :)
 >  In case of my experiments I grant you, there is room for
 doubt.
 >  But with Fantasy X and XII: Did you *really* listen?
 >  (I hope your disbelief did not impair your hearing. This
 human trait has
 >  been proven scientifically.)
 >  And if it's not connected, I would be very happy to know:
 >  how do you explain the total weirdness of especially those
 two
 >  fantasies? There is nothing remotely resembling this, and I
 have played
 >  and listened a lot. I would very much love to get other
 keyboard pieces
 >  in that style then, regardless :)
 >
 >  However (also to you, G. C.) - it is not the compatible mode,
 it is also
 >  basic motives of the Raga that can be found exactly at the
 right place,
 >  and the matching .
 >  I have yet to organize a real meeting between for example a
 singer and a
 >  keyboardist.
 >  If anything, this could be a nice intercultural exchange.
 >
 >  My old musicology professor by the way does agree with the
 finding.
 >  Though due to tempo inconsistecies (if oyu change tempo
 digitally, it
 >  sound terrible) I did not post it:
 >  If a Hindustani flute player matches Fantasy XII, it sounds
 like a
 >  Castello Sonata. I will try and prepare a mix with that, but
 I have not
 >  yet found the right music source.
 >  Anyone interested may get an mp3 in private email.
 >
 >
 >  Am 07.02.2018 um 23:32 schrieb Arto Wikla:
 >   > Well, I listened carefully all those example combinations
 of Bull's
 >   > harpsichord pieces and the suggested similiar(?) raga
 >  performances, and
 >   > sincerely I could not find much in common between them,
 just two
 >   > different sound clips connected. Tristan von Neumann is of
 course
 >  free
 >   > to name me also "fool" even after I really listened his
 medleys, but
 >   > while I definitely strongly disagree his idea... ;-)
 >   >
 >   > all the best,
 >   >
 >   > Arto
 >   >
 >   > On 07/02/18 07:53, Tristan von Neumann wrote:
 >   >>  > Those who would even want to listen are fools.
 >   >>
 >   >> Of course, those who wouldn't.
 >   >>
 >   >> Am 07.02.2018 um 06:48 schrieb Tristan von Neumann:
 >   >>> I can't believe almost no one is excited about this
 discovery.
 >   >>>
 >   >>> All those who *still* doubt me, listen to this epic Raga
 Yaman
 >   >>> accompanied by John Bull's Fantasy XII.
 >   >>> I did nothing but adjust the pitch and placement of the
 tracks.
 >   >>>
 >   >>>

[LUTE] Re: Sweelinck's Echo Fantasia ex A is a direct copy of Raga Asawari

   No need for u*n*s*u*b*s here. That's just being wimpy. Get it together
   man, this is just a teeny weeny lute list, there should be room for all
   of us, trolls and heroes alike :)
   Best
   G.

   --


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http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html

[LUTE] Re: Jacques Gautier, Ludovico Ariosti engravings (portraits)

   Jacques' hands remind me of Segovia.
   G.

   --


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[LUTE] Jacques Gautier, Ludovico Ariosti engravings (portraits)

2018-02-08 Thread Arthur Ness

   From J Lubrano ( http://www.lubranomusic.com/ ) in the New
   Acquisitions for February I spotted two engravings of possible interest
   here. Also check the "Details" link.

   >

   #1 Ludovico Ariosto by James Walker (1800) $500

   #13 The famous portrait of Jacques Gautier by Jan Lievens from shortly
   after his release from prison $1750
   >

   Arthur Ness
   arthurjn...@verizon.net

   --


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[LUTE] Re: John Bull's Fantasy XII is Raga Yaman

2018-02-08 Thread howard posner

> On Feb 8, 2018, at 11:36 AM, Tristan von Neumann  
> wrote:
> 
> If I presented a book with Ragas in one staff mensural notation from 
> Sweelinck's attic, your answer would probably be "these are just solmization 
> exercises"…

I’d have questions about its authenticity (who would be writing down ragas in 
mensural notation in 1620, and why?)  But by all means, produce the book.  It 
would answer the question I posed earlier.

> If you don't want to believe, you wouldn't even believe me if Sweelinck told 
> you himself…

I’d have even more questions, since my understanding is that Sweelinck is dead. 

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[LUTE] Re: Sweelinck's Echo Fantasia ex A is a direct copy of Raga Asawari


Well thanks for the hint :)

..and I'm leaving the lutelist.

This is just a waste of time. My contacts know where I am.

--->unsubscribe

Am 08.02.2018 um 20:33 schrieb G. C.:

Doctor's Orders:
The patient is to calm down by listening to some real "east meets west"
music, in the form of Ravi Shankar meets Yehudi Menuhin, to relax fom
his overexited state of mind.
A cup of bhang lassi before bedtime is also adviced.
Best
G.

On Thu, Feb 8, 2018 at 1:25 PM, Tristan von Neumann
<[1]tristanvonneum...@gmx.de> wrote:

  Folks, *this is my final offer to you*
  Whoever does *not* hear that this is the same piece, is amusical, or
  can't accept the f***ing truth. Seriously guys.
  The Fantasia starts so that both pieces end simultaneously.
  Slight tempo fluctuations due to the organ player.
  Nevertheless, *you WILL hear it* too.
  [2]https://soundcloud.com/tristan-von-neumann/sweelinck-echo-
  fantasia-ex-a-raga-asawari
  To get on or off this list see list information at
  [3]http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html

--

References

1. mailto:tristanvonneum...@gmx.de
2. 
https://soundcloud.com/tristan-von-neumann/sweelinck-echo-fantasia-ex-a-raga-asawari
3. http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html

[LUTE] Re: John Bull's Fantasy XII is Raga Yaman


so what do you expect?

If I presented a book with Ragas in one staff mensural notation from 
Sweelinck's attic, your answer would probably be "these are just 
solmization exercises"...


If you don't want to believe, you wouldn't even believe me if Sweelinck 
told you himself...
I have seen this principle on wikipedia - if the guy whose article is 
discussed makes himself clear when his birthday is, also referring to 
his homepage, there are still people who say "but in this book, it's one 
year earlier". No kidding.



Am 08.02.2018 um 20:24 schrieb Jacob Johnson:


I technically posted an example of quodlibet. But what you've done is
in fact precisely the same as a mashup, wherein two disparate source
pieces are overlaid, often with one source requiring a change of pitch
and/or tempo. Mashups don't mean that you've edited the parts, that
would be more like sampling or looping in digital audio production.
Mashups require that you HAVEN'T EDITED THE PARTS. The mashup as a
genre is only popular in the first place because the "evidence" you're
claiming can be "discovered" with pretty much any two pieces of music,
given matching tempi and key.
It's just that mashups aren't real evidence. The claim you are making
and the manner in which you are making it has precisely the same
academic weight as if you were saying "if you start Pink Floyd's "Dark
Side of the Moon' after the 2nd roar of the MGM lion at the beginning
of The Wizard of Oz, you can clearly see that L. Frank Baum was a HUGE
PINK FLOYD FAN." All you're showing us right now is the result of a
phenomenon called apophenia. Indulging apophenia can be wildly
entertaining and the results may even become a new piece of art in
their own right, but research it is not.
I like that you're thinking about similarities, but I'd just expect
more rigor from someone who says they're a musicologist. I'm sorry, but
even if your claims were correct your mashups on their own still
wouldn't hold any water. Show us actual research that supports your
claims.
But most of all, please stop addressing the list as though we are all
"fools".
Regards,
Jacob Johnson
[uc?export=downloadid=0B6_gM3BRE6ZrYVVZZU5QNmJqdDQrevid=0B6_g
M3BRE6ZraW9nQ2U4SGNwV0tYVWxobnNBVjBsZi9FNHhzPQ]
Guitar/Lute
[1]www.johnsonguitarstudio.com
469.237.0625.
On Thu, Feb 8, 2018 at 12:51 PM, Tristan von Neumann
<[2]tristanvonneum...@gmx.de> wrote:

  it's not a mash-up, I *DID NOT EDIT THE TRACKS*
  I just placed them above each other and pitched the lute to the
  pitch of the Raga!
  How do you expect to do editing in 30 mins??
  here are the original source tracks:
  [3]https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=xnbbk7_tFDo
  (this reveals the identity of the lutist)
  [4]https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=nCL2fpacwYA

Am 08.02.2018 um 19:39 schrieb Jacob Johnson:

  If a mashup counts as "evidence", then I humbly submit for the
  list's
  consideration the following:
  [1][5]https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=7OYkWSW7u4k;
  #bigiftrue #staywoke #wakeupsheeple
  What blows my mind is how incredibly confrontational your tone
  is in
  nearly everything you post here, Tristan. It's cringey and
  strikes me
  as condescending.
  Jacob Johnson
  [uc?export=downloadid=0B6_gM3BRE6ZrYVVZZU5QNmJqdDQ
  revid=0B6_g
  M3BRE6ZraW9nQ2U4SGNwV0tYVWxobnNBVjBsZi9FNHhzPQ]
  Guitar/Lute
  [2][6]www.johnsonguitarstudio.com
  [3]469.237.0625.
  --
  References
  1. [7]https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=7OYkWSW7u4k;
  2. [8]http://www.johnsonguitarstudio.com/
  3. tel:[9](469) 237-0625
  To get on or off this list see list information at
  [10]http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html

--

References

1. http://www.johnsonguitarstudio.com/
2. mailto:tristanvonneum...@gmx.de
3. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=xnbbk7_tFDo
4. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=nCL2fpacwYA
5. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=7OYkWSW7u4k;
6. http://www.johnsonguitarstudio.com/
7. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=7OYkWSW7u4k;
8. http://www.johnsonguitarstudio.com/
9. tel:(469) 237-0625
   10. http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html

[LUTE] Re: Sweelinck's Echo Fantasia ex A is a direct copy of Raga Asawari

   Doctor's Orders:
   The patient is to calm down by listening to some real "east meets west"
   music, in the form of Ravi Shankar meets Yehudi Menuhin, to relax fom
   his overexited state of mind.
   A cup of bhang lassi before bedtime is also adviced.
   Best
   G.

   On Thu, Feb 8, 2018 at 1:25 PM, Tristan von Neumann
   <[1]tristanvonneum...@gmx.de> wrote:

 Folks, *this is my final offer to you*
 Whoever does *not* hear that this is the same piece, is amusical, or
 can't accept the f***ing truth. Seriously guys.
 The Fantasia starts so that both pieces end simultaneously.
 Slight tempo fluctuations due to the organ player.
 Nevertheless, *you WILL hear it* too.
 [2]https://soundcloud.com/tristan-von-neumann/sweelinck-echo-
 fantasia-ex-a-raga-asawari
 To get on or off this list see list information at
 [3]http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html

   --

References

   1. mailto:tristanvonneum...@gmx.de
   2. 
https://soundcloud.com/tristan-von-neumann/sweelinck-echo-fantasia-ex-a-raga-asawari
   3. http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html

[LUTE] Re: Here it is: John Dowland Fantasy 7 - Raga Bilawal.

Thanks for actually showing it to her!

have you played the whole bunch?

btw if it were coincidence, it should work on any piece of music.
That's just not the case. I tried.

Please show her the Dowland mix, and please let her explain how the
modulations are possible everytime if this is just coincidence.

Am 08.02.2018 um 20:21 schrieb John Mardinly:

Tristan;
Here is the comment from my sister, BS Voice, New England Conservatory,
Ph.D. Musicology Hartford Conservatory:

"I have encountered many who overdo connections, like this guy!!”

It’s not just me.

A. John Mardinly, Ph.D., P.E.

The Sleep of Reason Produces Monsters
Francisco Goya

On Feb 8, 2018, at 11:44 AM, Tristan von Neumann
> wrote:

I'm sorry, Dr. John.

I can't take you seriously any more.

I am sorry that I do not have a harpsichordist, pro lutist and Indian
Singer plus tabla at my disposal to provide you with ad hoc recordings
of musicians actually playing together!

I'm not a trained sound engineer!

You are a Dr., so you have scientific education.

Could you please provide some arguments? Please?

Dowland even does the tabla triplets at the end, I find that pretty
fascinating and convincing.

Am 08.02.2018 um 19:27 schrieb John Mardinly:

You gotta be kidding me. Aside from being aurally hideous, it is so
ludicrous even Peter Schickele would not present it as a joke.
A. John Mardinly, Ph.D., P.E.
The Sleep of Reason Produces Monsters
Francisco Goya
On Feb 8, 2018, at 10:20 AM, Tristan von Neumann
<[1]tristanvonneum...@gmx.de > wrote:
I have decided to post this anyway
(this is for you, Gene!)
100% match. No excuse for "coincidence". This is consciously
planned to

the detail.
About choosing the point of alignment: it is always the beginning or
the ending, depending what piece is longer. I never cheat.
This also confirms my hypothesis that John Dowland was the key
distributor of Ragas
Has anybody wondered where the "Blue notes" in English music come
from?

Now you know.
Whoever played this had great intuition. Maybe he's on the list and
recognizes his playing. (I pitched the lute higher though...)
Now you know also about the true tempo to play Dowland.
(Relax, Paul :))
[2]https://urldefense.proofpoint.com/v2/url?u=https-3A__soundcloud.com_
tristan-2Dvon-2Dneumann_john-2Ddowland-2Dfantasy-2D7-2Dalhaiya-2Dbilawa
l=DwICaQ=l45AxH-kUV29SRQusp9vYR0n1GycN4_2jInuKy6zbqQ=VLPJ8OE-c_C6
joGeE1ftlvxMmQPq9N6mpKZONBRt90E=mu7Q8qq2neoXtmI2lot73Pu1bV4moy7KOYvqb
_CPO_4=EBcTFtai5_e-NowLOHjdmOJa8J5lVsFfZhfws9MBAF4=
To get on or off this list see list information at
https://urldefense.proofpoint.com/v2/url?u=http-3A__www.cs.dartmouth.ed
u_-7Ewbc_lute-2Dadmin_index.html=DwICaQ=l45AxH-kUV29SRQusp9vYR0n1Gy
cN4_2jInuKy6zbqQ=VLPJ8OE-c_C6joGeE1ftlvxMmQPq9N6mpKZONBRt90E=mu7Q8q
q2neoXtmI2lot73Pu1bV4moy7KOYvqb_CPO_4=82UvBxZ14_SRl3pg29_W2OIx3M7Nx9w
mF0JGA7QyRiw=
--
References
1. mailto:tristanvonneum...@gmx.de
2.
https://urldefense.proofpoint.com/v2/url?u=https-3A__soundcloud.com_tristan-2Dvon-2Dneumann_john-2Ddowland-2Dfantasy-2D7-2Dalhaiya-2Dbilawal=DwICaQ=l45AxH-kUV29SRQusp9vYR0n1GycN4_2jInuKy6zbqQ=VLPJ8OE-c_C6joGeE1ftlvxMmQPq9N6mpKZONBRt90E=mu7Q8qq2neoXtmI2lot73Pu1bV4moy7KOYvqb_CPO_4=EBcTFtai5_e-NowLOHjdmOJa8J5lVsFfZhfws9MBAF4=

[LUTE] Re: John Bull's Fantasy XII is Raga Yaman

   Excellent find, Jacob. Clearly someone has too much free time on their
   hands.

   A. John Mardinly, Ph.D., P.E.
   The Sleep of Reason Produces Monsters
   Francisco Goya

   On Feb 8, 2018, at 11:39 AM, Jacob Johnson <[1]tmrguitar...@gmail.com>
   wrote:

 If a mashup counts as "evidence", then I humbly submit for the list's
 consideration the following:
 [1][2]https://urldefense.proofpoint.com/v2/url?u=https-3A__www.youtub
   e.com_watch-3Fv-3D7OYkWSW7u4k-26=DwIBAg=l45AxH-kUV29SRQusp9vYR0n1Gy
   cN4_2jInuKy6zbqQ=VLPJ8OE-c_C6joGeE1ftlvxMmQPq9N6mpKZONBRt90E=5NElQy
   Y-FjQ6PqCkDLz1SNCKT_X4cLNBUBcluht4OuE=9NnOJNeNLrTSPmuUj0LfQre-1wKfTn6
   KqTPWIaM-L-k=
 #bigiftrue #staywoke #wakeupsheeple
 What blows my mind is how incredibly confrontational your tone is in
 nearly everything you post here, Tristan. It's cringey and strikes me
 as condescending.
 Jacob Johnson
 [uc?export=downloadid=0B6_gM3BRE6ZrYVVZZU5QNmJqdDQrevid=0B6
   _g
 M3BRE6ZraW9nQ2U4SGNwV0tYVWxobnNBVjBsZi9FNHhzPQ]
 Guitar/Lute
 [2][3]www.johnsonguitarstudio.com
 [3]469.237.0625.
 --
   References
 1.
   [4]https://urldefense.proofpoint.com/v2/url?u=https-3A__www.youtube.com
   _watch-3Fv-3D7OYkWSW7u4k-26=DwIBAg=l45AxH-kUV29SRQusp9vYR0n1GycN4_2
   jInuKy6zbqQ=VLPJ8OE-c_C6joGeE1ftlvxMmQPq9N6mpKZONBRt90E=5NElQyY-FjQ
   6PqCkDLz1SNCKT_X4cLNBUBcluht4OuE=9NnOJNeNLrTSPmuUj0LfQre-1wKfTn6KqTPW
   IaM-L-k=
 2.
   [5]https://urldefense.proofpoint.com/v2/url?u=http-3A__www.johnsonguita
   rstudio.com_=DwIBAg=l45AxH-kUV29SRQusp9vYR0n1GycN4_2jInuKy6zbqQ=V
   LPJ8OE-c_C6joGeE1ftlvxMmQPq9N6mpKZONBRt90E=5NElQyY-FjQ6PqCkDLz1SNCKT_
   X4cLNBUBcluht4OuE=UjUobauXF-llUFFDed9ysx4m0q1nTPudVU0J7vKgJG4=
 3. tel:(469) 237-0625
   To get on or off this list see list information at
   [6]https://urldefense.proofpoint.com/v2/url?u=http-3A__www.cs.dartmouth
   .edu_-7Ewbc_lute-2Dadmin_index.html=DwIBAg=l45AxH-kUV29SRQusp9vYR0n
   1GycN4_2jInuKy6zbqQ=VLPJ8OE-c_C6joGeE1ftlvxMmQPq9N6mpKZONBRt90E=5NE
   lQyY-FjQ6PqCkDLz1SNCKT_X4cLNBUBcluht4OuE=_A9NS1WANrwz2bVQr8awRUWQKz1C
   ikjBI2_Vw29lUAI=

   --

References

   1. mailto:tmrguitar...@gmail.com
   2. 
https://urldefense.proofpoint.com/v2/url?u=https-3A__www.youtube.com_watch-3Fv-3D7OYkWSW7u4k-26=DwIBAg=l45AxH-kUV29SRQusp9vYR0n1GycN4_2jInuKy6zbqQ=VLPJ8OE-c_C6joGeE1ftlvxMmQPq9N6mpKZONBRt90E=5NElQyY-FjQ6PqCkDLz1SNCKT_X4cLNBUBcluht4OuE=9NnOJNeNLrTSPmuUj0LfQre-1wKfTn6KqTPWIaM-L-k=
   3. http://www.johnsonguitarstudio.com/
   4. 
https://urldefense.proofpoint.com/v2/url?u=https-3A__www.youtube.com_watch-3Fv-3D7OYkWSW7u4k-26=DwIBAg=l45AxH-kUV29SRQusp9vYR0n1GycN4_2jInuKy6zbqQ=VLPJ8OE-c_C6joGeE1ftlvxMmQPq9N6mpKZONBRt90E=5NElQyY-FjQ6PqCkDLz1SNCKT_X4cLNBUBcluht4OuE=9NnOJNeNLrTSPmuUj0LfQre-1wKfTn6KqTPWIaM-L-k=
   5. 
https://urldefense.proofpoint.com/v2/url?u=http-3A__www.johnsonguitarstudio.com_=DwIBAg=l45AxH-kUV29SRQusp9vYR0n1GycN4_2jInuKy6zbqQ=VLPJ8OE-c_C6joGeE1ftlvxMmQPq9N6mpKZONBRt90E=5NElQyY-FjQ6PqCkDLz1SNCKT_X4cLNBUBcluht4OuE=UjUobauXF-llUFFDed9ysx4m0q1nTPudVU0J7vKgJG4=
   6. 
https://urldefense.proofpoint.com/v2/url?u=http-3A__www.cs.dartmouth.edu_-7Ewbc_lute-2Dadmin_index.html=DwIBAg=l45AxH-kUV29SRQusp9vYR0n1GycN4_2jInuKy6zbqQ=VLPJ8OE-c_C6joGeE1ftlvxMmQPq9N6mpKZONBRt90E=5NElQyY-FjQ6PqCkDLz1SNCKT_X4cLNBUBcluht4OuE=_A9NS1WANrwz2bVQr8awRUWQKz1CikjBI2_Vw29lUAI=

[LUTE] Re: John Bull's Fantasy XII is Raga Yaman

2018-02-08 Thread Jacob Johnson


   I technically posted an example of quodlibet. But what you've done is
   in fact precisely the same as a mashup, wherein two disparate source
   pieces are overlaid, often with one source requiring a change of pitch
   and/or tempo. Mashups don't mean that you've edited the parts, that
   would be more like sampling or looping in digital audio production.
   Mashups require that you HAVEN'T EDITED THE PARTS. The mashup as a
   genre is only popular in the first place because the "evidence" you're
   claiming can be "discovered" with pretty much any two pieces of music,
   given matching tempi and key.
   It's just that mashups aren't real evidence. The claim you are making
   and the manner in which you are making it has precisely the same
   academic weight as if you were saying "if you start Pink Floyd's "Dark
   Side of the Moon' after the 2nd roar of the MGM lion at the beginning
   of The Wizard of Oz, you can clearly see that L. Frank Baum was a HUGE
   PINK FLOYD FAN." All you're showing us right now is the result of a
   phenomenon called apophenia. Indulging apophenia can be wildly
   entertaining and the results may even become a new piece of art in
   their own right, but research it is not.
   I like that you're thinking about similarities, but I'd just expect
   more rigor from someone who says they're a musicologist. I'm sorry, but
   even if your claims were correct your mashups on their own still
   wouldn't hold any water. Show us actual research that supports your
   claims.
   But most of all, please stop addressing the list as though we are all
   "fools".
   Regards,
   Jacob Johnson
   [uc?export=downloadid=0B6_gM3BRE6ZrYVVZZU5QNmJqdDQrevid=0B6_g
   M3BRE6ZraW9nQ2U4SGNwV0tYVWxobnNBVjBsZi9FNHhzPQ]
   Guitar/Lute
   [1]www.johnsonguitarstudio.com
   469.237.0625.
   On Thu, Feb 8, 2018 at 12:51 PM, Tristan von Neumann
   <[2]tristanvonneum...@gmx.de> wrote:

 it's not a mash-up, I *DID NOT EDIT THE TRACKS*
 I just placed them above each other and pitched the lute to the
 pitch of the Raga!
 How do you expect to do editing in 30 mins??
 here are the original source tracks:
 [3]https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=xnbbk7_tFDo
 (this reveals the identity of the lutist)
 [4]https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=nCL2fpacwYA

   Am 08.02.2018 um 19:39 schrieb Jacob Johnson:

 If a mashup counts as "evidence", then I humbly submit for the
 list's
 consideration the following:
 [1][5]https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=7OYkWSW7u4k;
 #bigiftrue #staywoke #wakeupsheeple
 What blows my mind is how incredibly confrontational your tone
 is in
 nearly everything you post here, Tristan. It's cringey and
 strikes me
 as condescending.
 Jacob Johnson
 [uc?export=downloadid=0B6_gM3BRE6ZrYVVZZU5QNmJqdDQ
 revid=0B6_g
 M3BRE6ZraW9nQ2U4SGNwV0tYVWxobnNBVjBsZi9FNHhzPQ]
 Guitar/Lute
 [2][6]www.johnsonguitarstudio.com
 [3]469.237.0625.
 --
 References
 1. [7]https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=7OYkWSW7u4k;
 2. [8]http://www.johnsonguitarstudio.com/
 3. tel:[9](469) 237-0625
 To get on or off this list see list information at
 [10]http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html

   --

References

   1. http://www.johnsonguitarstudio.com/
   2. mailto:tristanvonneum...@gmx.de
   3. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=xnbbk7_tFDo
   4. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=nCL2fpacwYA
   5. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=7OYkWSW7u4k;
   6. http://www.johnsonguitarstudio.com/
   7. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=7OYkWSW7u4k;
   8. http://www.johnsonguitarstudio.com/
   9. tel:(469) 237-0625
  10. http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html

[LUTE] Re: Here it is: John Dowland Fantasy 7 - Raga Bilawal.

   Tristan;

   Here is the comment from my sister, BS Voice, New England Conservatory,
   Ph.D. Musicology Hartford Conservatory:

   "I have encountered many who overdo connections, like this guy!!"

   It's not just me.
   A. John Mardinly, Ph.D., P.E.
   The Sleep of Reason Produces Monsters
   Francisco Goya

   On Feb 8, 2018, at 11:44 AM, Tristan von Neumann
   <[1]tristanvonneum...@gmx.de> wrote:

   I'm sorry, Dr. John.
   I can't take you seriously any more.
   I am sorry that I do not have a harpsichordist, pro lutist and Indian
   Singer plus tabla at my disposal to provide you with ad hoc recordings
   of musicians actually playing together!
   I'm not a trained sound engineer!
   You are a Dr., so you have scientific education.
   Could you please provide some arguments? Please?
   Dowland even does the tabla triplets at the end, I find that pretty
   fascinating and convincing.
   Am 08.02.2018 um 19:27 schrieb John Mardinly:

You gotta be kidding me. Aside from being aurally hideous, it is
 so
ludicrous even Peter Schickele would not present it as a joke.
A. John Mardinly, Ph.D., P.E.
The Sleep of Reason Produces Monsters
Francisco Goya
On Feb 8, 2018, at 10:20 AM, Tristan von Neumann
<[1][2]tristanvonneum...@gmx.de> wrote:
I have decided to post this anyway
(this is for you, Gene!)
100% match. No excuse for "coincidence". This is consciously
 planned to
the detail.
About choosing the point of alignment: it is always the beginning
 or
the ending, depending what piece is longer. I never cheat.
This also confirms my hypothesis that John Dowland was the key
distributor of Ragas
Has anybody wondered where the "Blue notes" in English music come
 from?
Now you know.
Whoever played this had great intuition. Maybe he's on the list
 and
recognizes his playing. (I pitched the lute higher though...)
Now you know also about the true tempo to play Dowland.
(Relax, Paul :))
[2][3]https://urldefense.proofpoint.com/v2/url?u=https-3A__soundc
 loud.com_
tristan-2Dvon-2Dneumann_john-2Ddowland-2Dfantasy-2D7-2Dalhaiya-2D
 bilawa
l=DwICaQ=l45AxH-kUV29SRQusp9vYR0n1GycN4_2jInuKy6zbqQ=VLPJ8O
 E-c_C6
joGeE1ftlvxMmQPq9N6mpKZONBRt90E=mu7Q8qq2neoXtmI2lot73Pu1bV4moy7
 KOYvqb
_CPO_4_e-NowLOHjdmOJa8J5lVsFfZhfws9MBAF4=
To get on or off this list see list information at
[4]https://urldefense.proofpoint.com/v2/url?u=http-3A__www.cs.dar
 tmouth.ed
u_-7Ewbc_lute-2Dadmin_index.html=DwICaQ=l45AxH-kUV29SRQusp9vY
 R0n1Gy
cN4_2jInuKy6zbqQ=VLPJ8OE-c_C6joGeE1ftlvxMmQPq9N6mpKZONBRt90E=
 mu7Q8q
q2neoXtmI2lot73Pu1bV4moy7KOYvqb_CPO_4ï¿½UvBxZ14_SRl3pg29_W2OIx3M7
 Nx9w
mF0JGA7QyRiw=
--
 References
1. [5]mailto:tristanvonneum...@gmx.de
2.
 [6]https://urldefense.proofpoint.com/v2/url?u=https-3A__soundcloud.c
 om_tristan-2Dvon-2Dneumann_john-2Ddowland-2Dfantasy-2D7-2Dalhaiya-2D
 bilawal=DwICaQ=l45AxH-kUV29SRQusp9vYR0n1GycN4_2jInuKy6zbqQ=VLP
 J8OE-c_C6joGeE1ftlvxMmQPq9N6mpKZONBRt90E=mu7Q8qq2neoXtmI2lot73Pu1b
 V4moy7KOYvqb_CPO_4_e-NowLOHjdmOJa8J5lVsFfZhfws9MBAF4=

References

   1. mailto:tristanvonneum...@gmx.de
   2. mailto:tristanvonneum...@gmx.de
   3. https://urldefense.proofpoint.com/v2/url?u=https-3A__soundcloud.com_
   4. https://urldefense.proofpoint.com/v2/url?u=http-3A__www.cs.dartmouth.ed
   5. mailto:tristanvonneum...@gmx.de
   6. 
https://urldefense.proofpoint.com/v2/url?u=https-3A__soundcloud.com_tristan-2Dvon-2Dneumann_john-2Ddowland-2Dfantasy-2D7-2Dalhaiya-2Dbilawal=DwICaQ=l45AxH-kUV29SRQusp9vYR0n1GycN4_2jInuKy6zbqQ=VLPJ8OE-c_C6joGeE1ftlvxMmQPq9N6mpKZONBRt90E=mu7Q8qq2neoXtmI2lot73Pu1bV4moy7KOYvqb_CPO_4_e-NowLOHjdmOJa8J5lVsFfZhfws9MBAF4=

[LUTE] Re: Here it is: John Dowland Fantasy 7 - Raga Bilawal.

Are you all tone-deaf??? Of course the microtones blur a little, but you 
should as musicians be able to hear past that to the essence!


Do you not hear the same GESTURES? In case of Dowland this isn't even 
disharmonic!


I begin to suspect you are envious of my discovery. Your disbelief is 
unreal.


How about some arguments?



Am 08.02.2018 um 19:49 schrieb howard posner:

It sounds remarkably like a lute player trying to play Dowland in a room where 
a group of Indian musicians is busy playing a raga.

In this respect it differs from your John Bull concoctions, which sound like 
something Charles Ives might have composed had he gone to Maharishi Mahesh 
Yogi’s ashram and dropped acid with the Beatles.

I still can’t tell if you’re serious about this; if it’s a joke, it seems like 
you’re going to a lot of effort.

If it’s not, can you suggest any mechanism by which Indian ragas could become 
so commonplace in Europe in 1600 that major composers in three countries were 
composing them, and yet the connection stayed secret for 400 years?

ALTHOUGH…

When Maitland and Squire published the Fitzwilliam Virginal Book in 1899, they 
dedicated it “To Her Most Gracious Majesty Queen Victoria, Empress of India.”

COINCIDENCE???



On Feb 8, 2018, at 9:20 AM, Tristan von Neumann  
wrote:

I have decided to post this anyway

(this is for you, Gene!)

100% match. No excuse for "coincidence". This is consciously planned to the 
detail.
About choosing the point of alignment: it is always the beginning or the 
ending, depending what piece is longer. I never cheat.

This also confirms my hypothesis that John Dowland was the key distributor of 
Ragas

Has anybody wondered where the "Blue notes" in English music come from? Now you 
know.
Whoever played this had great intuition. Maybe he's on the list and recognizes 
his playing. (I pitched the lute higher though...)

Now you know also about the true tempo to play Dowland.
(Relax, Paul :))

https://soundcloud.com/tristan-von-neumann/john-dowland-fantasy-7-alhaiya-bilawal



To get on or off this list see list information at
http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html

[LUTE] Re: Here it is: John Dowland Fantasy 7 - Raga Bilawal.

You seem to conflate "I have heard, concede many of your points, but am not yet 
convinced of your conclusion and remain open to other possibilities" with "I 
have heard, you are wrong, and my disapproval constitutes an attack on your 
person."  The former represents my intent and is what I consider to be 
appropriately skeptical.  The latter in no way represents my intent, makes a 
positive assertion that would assume a burden of proof that I have no interest 
in fulfilling, and would constitute inappropriate cynicism.

Carry on with my well wishes.  I look forward to hearing word of the 
publication.

Eugene



-Original Message-
From: lute-...@cs.dartmouth.edu [mailto:lute-...@cs.dartmouth.edu] On Behalf Of 
Tristan von Neumann
Sent: Thursday, February 08, 2018 12:20 PM
To: lutelist Net
Subject: [LUTE] Here it is: John Dowland Fantasy 7 - Raga Bilawal.

I have decided to post this anyway

(this is for you, Gene!)

100% match. No excuse for "coincidence". This is consciously planned to the 
detail.
About choosing the point of alignment: it is always the beginning or the 
ending, depending what piece is longer. I never cheat.

This also confirms my hypothesis that John Dowland was the key distributor of 
Ragas

Has anybody wondered where the "Blue notes" in English music come from? 
Now you know.
Whoever played this had great intuition. Maybe he's on the list and recognizes 
his playing. (I pitched the lute higher though...)

Now you know also about the true tempo to play Dowland.
(Relax, Paul :))

https://soundcloud.com/tristan-von-neumann/john-dowland-fantasy-7-alhaiya-bilawal



To get on or off this list see list information at 
http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html

[LUTE] Re: John Bull's Fantasy XII is Raga Yaman


it's not a mash-up, I *DID NOT EDIT THE TRACKS*

I just placed them above each other and pitched the lute to the pitch of 
the Raga!


How do you expect to do editing in 30 mins??

here are the original source tracks:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=xnbbk7_tFDo

(this reveals the identity of the lutist)
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=nCL2fpacwYA



Am 08.02.2018 um 19:39 schrieb Jacob Johnson:


If a mashup counts as "evidence", then I humbly submit for the list's
consideration the following:
[1]https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=7OYkWSW7u4k;
#bigiftrue #staywoke #wakeupsheeple
What blows my mind is how incredibly confrontational your tone is in
nearly everything you post here, Tristan. It's cringey and strikes me
as condescending.
Jacob Johnson
[uc?export=downloadid=0B6_gM3BRE6ZrYVVZZU5QNmJqdDQrevid=0B6_g
M3BRE6ZraW9nQ2U4SGNwV0tYVWxobnNBVjBsZi9FNHhzPQ]
Guitar/Lute
[2]www.johnsonguitarstudio.com
[3]469.237.0625.

--

References

1. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=7OYkWSW7u4k;
2. http://www.johnsonguitarstudio.com/
3. tel:(469) 237-0625


To get on or off this list see list information at
http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html

[LUTE] Re: Here it is: John Dowland Fantasy 7 - Raga Bilawal.

2018-02-08 Thread howard posner

It sounds remarkably like a lute player trying to play Dowland in a room where 
a group of Indian musicians is busy playing a raga.  

In this respect it differs from your John Bull concoctions, which sound like 
something Charles Ives might have composed had he gone to Maharishi Mahesh 
Yogi’s ashram and dropped acid with the Beatles.

I still can’t tell if you’re serious about this; if it’s a joke, it seems like 
you’re going to a lot of effort.

If it’s not, can you suggest any mechanism by which Indian ragas could become 
so commonplace in Europe in 1600 that major composers in three countries were 
composing them, and yet the connection stayed secret for 400 years?

ALTHOUGH…

When Maitland and Squire published the Fitzwilliam Virginal Book in 1899, they 
dedicated it “To Her Most Gracious Majesty Queen Victoria, Empress of India.”  

COINCIDENCE???

> On Feb 8, 2018, at 9:20 AM, Tristan von Neumann  
> wrote:
> 
> I have decided to post this anyway
> 
> (this is for you, Gene!)
> 
> 100% match. No excuse for "coincidence". This is consciously planned to the 
> detail.
> About choosing the point of alignment: it is always the beginning or the 
> ending, depending what piece is longer. I never cheat.
> 
> This also confirms my hypothesis that John Dowland was the key distributor of 
> Ragas
> 
> Has anybody wondered where the "Blue notes" in English music come from? Now 
> you know.
> Whoever played this had great intuition. Maybe he's on the list and 
> recognizes his playing. (I pitched the lute higher though...)
> 
> Now you know also about the true tempo to play Dowland.
> (Relax, Paul :))
> 
> https://soundcloud.com/tristan-von-neumann/john-dowland-fantasy-7-alhaiya-bilawal
> 
> 
> 
> To get on or off this list see list information at
> http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html

[LUTE] Re: Here it is: John Dowland Fantasy 7 - Raga Bilawal.

I'm sorry, Dr. John.

I can't take you seriously any more.

I am sorry that I do not have a harpsichordist, pro lutist and Indian
Singer plus tabla at my disposal to provide you with ad hoc recordings
of musicians actually playing together!

I'm not a trained sound engineer!

You are a Dr., so you have scientific education.

Could you please provide some arguments? Please?

Dowland even does the tabla triplets at the end, I find that pretty
fascinating and convincing.

Am 08.02.2018 um 19:27 schrieb John Mardinly:

You gotta be kidding me. Aside from being aurally hideous, it is so
ludicrous even Peter Schickele would not present it as a joke.

A. John Mardinly, Ph.D., P.E.
The Sleep of Reason Produces Monsters
Francisco Goya

On Feb 8, 2018, at 10:20 AM, Tristan von Neumann
<[1]tristanvonneum...@gmx.de> wrote:

I have decided to post this anyway
(this is for you, Gene!)
100% match. No excuse for "coincidence". This is consciously planned to
the detail.
About choosing the point of alignment: it is always the beginning or
the ending, depending what piece is longer. I never cheat.
This also confirms my hypothesis that John Dowland was the key
distributor of Ragas
Has anybody wondered where the "Blue notes" in English music come from?
Now you know.
Whoever played this had great intuition. Maybe he's on the list and
recognizes his playing. (I pitched the lute higher though...)
Now you know also about the true tempo to play Dowland.
(Relax, Paul :))
[2]https://urldefense.proofpoint.com/v2/url?u=https-3A__soundcloud.com_
tristan-2Dvon-2Dneumann_john-2Ddowland-2Dfantasy-2D7-2Dalhaiya-2Dbilawa
l=DwICaQ=l45AxH-kUV29SRQusp9vYR0n1GycN4_2jInuKy6zbqQ=VLPJ8OE-c_C6
joGeE1ftlvxMmQPq9N6mpKZONBRt90E=mu7Q8qq2neoXtmI2lot73Pu1bV4moy7KOYvqb
_CPO_4=EBcTFtai5_e-NowLOHjdmOJa8J5lVsFfZhfws9MBAF4=
To get on or off this list see list information at
https://urldefense.proofpoint.com/v2/url?u=http-3A__www.cs.dartmouth.ed
u_-7Ewbc_lute-2Dadmin_index.html=DwICaQ=l45AxH-kUV29SRQusp9vYR0n1Gy
cN4_2jInuKy6zbqQ=VLPJ8OE-c_C6joGeE1ftlvxMmQPq9N6mpKZONBRt90E=mu7Q8q
q2neoXtmI2lot73Pu1bV4moy7KOYvqb_CPO_4=82UvBxZ14_SRl3pg29_W2OIx3M7Nx9w
mF0JGA7QyRiw=

References

1. mailto:tristanvonneum...@gmx.de
2.
https://urldefense.proofpoint.com/v2/url?u=https-3A__soundcloud.com_tristan-2Dvon-2Dneumann_john-2Ddowland-2Dfantasy-2D7-2Dalhaiya-2Dbilawal=DwICaQ=l45AxH-kUV29SRQusp9vYR0n1GycN4_2jInuKy6zbqQ=VLPJ8OE-c_C6joGeE1ftlvxMmQPq9N6mpKZONBRt90E=mu7Q8qq2neoXtmI2lot73Pu1bV4moy7KOYvqb_CPO_4=EBcTFtai5_e-NowLOHjdmOJa8J5lVsFfZhfws9MBAF4=

[LUTE] Re: John Bull's Fantasy XII is Raga Yaman

2018-02-08 Thread Jacob Johnson


   If a mashup counts as "evidence", then I humbly submit for the list's
   consideration the following:
   [1]https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=7OYkWSW7u4k;
   #bigiftrue #staywoke #wakeupsheeple
   What blows my mind is how incredibly confrontational your tone is in
   nearly everything you post here, Tristan. It's cringey and strikes me
   as condescending.
   Jacob Johnson
   [uc?export=downloadid=0B6_gM3BRE6ZrYVVZZU5QNmJqdDQrevid=0B6_g
   M3BRE6ZraW9nQ2U4SGNwV0tYVWxobnNBVjBsZi9FNHhzPQ]
   Guitar/Lute
   [2]www.johnsonguitarstudio.com
   [3]469.237.0625.

   --

References

   1. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=7OYkWSW7u4k;
   2. http://www.johnsonguitarstudio.com/
   3. tel:(469) 237-0625


To get on or off this list see list information at
http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html

[LUTE] Re: Here it is: John Dowland Fantasy 7 - Raga Bilawal.

   You gotta be kidding me. Aside from being aurally hideous, it is so
   ludicrous even Peter Schickele would not present it as a joke.

   A. John Mardinly, Ph.D., P.E.
   The Sleep of Reason Produces Monsters
   Francisco Goya

   On Feb 8, 2018, at 10:20 AM, Tristan von Neumann
   <[1]tristanvonneum...@gmx.de> wrote:

   I have decided to post this anyway
   (this is for you, Gene!)
   100% match. No excuse for "coincidence". This is consciously planned to
   the detail.
   About choosing the point of alignment: it is always the beginning or
   the ending, depending what piece is longer. I never cheat.
   This also confirms my hypothesis that John Dowland was the key
   distributor of Ragas
   Has anybody wondered where the "Blue notes" in English music come from?
   Now you know.
   Whoever played this had great intuition. Maybe he's on the list and
   recognizes his playing. (I pitched the lute higher though...)
   Now you know also about the true tempo to play Dowland.
   (Relax, Paul :))
   [2]https://urldefense.proofpoint.com/v2/url?u=https-3A__soundcloud.com_
   tristan-2Dvon-2Dneumann_john-2Ddowland-2Dfantasy-2D7-2Dalhaiya-2Dbilawa
   l=DwICaQ=l45AxH-kUV29SRQusp9vYR0n1GycN4_2jInuKy6zbqQ=VLPJ8OE-c_C6
   joGeE1ftlvxMmQPq9N6mpKZONBRt90E=mu7Q8qq2neoXtmI2lot73Pu1bV4moy7KOYvqb
   _CPO_4=EBcTFtai5_e-NowLOHjdmOJa8J5lVsFfZhfws9MBAF4=
   To get on or off this list see list information at
   https://urldefense.proofpoint.com/v2/url?u=http-3A__www.cs.dartmouth.ed
   u_-7Ewbc_lute-2Dadmin_index.html=DwICaQ=l45AxH-kUV29SRQusp9vYR0n1Gy
   cN4_2jInuKy6zbqQ=VLPJ8OE-c_C6joGeE1ftlvxMmQPq9N6mpKZONBRt90E=mu7Q8q
   q2neoXtmI2lot73Pu1bV4moy7KOYvqb_CPO_4=82UvBxZ14_SRl3pg29_W2OIx3M7Nx9w
   mF0JGA7QyRiw=

   --

References

   1. mailto:tristanvonneum...@gmx.de
   2. 
https://urldefense.proofpoint.com/v2/url?u=https-3A__soundcloud.com_tristan-2Dvon-2Dneumann_john-2Ddowland-2Dfantasy-2D7-2Dalhaiya-2Dbilawal=DwICaQ=l45AxH-kUV29SRQusp9vYR0n1GycN4_2jInuKy6zbqQ=VLPJ8OE-c_C6joGeE1ftlvxMmQPq9N6mpKZONBRt90E=mu7Q8qq2neoXtmI2lot73Pu1bV4moy7KOYvqb_CPO_4=EBcTFtai5_e-NowLOHjdmOJa8J5lVsFfZhfws9MBAF4=

[LUTE] Re: John Bull's Fantasy XII is Raga Yaman

I agree perfectly.

Eugene


-Original Message-
From: lute-...@cs.dartmouth.edu [mailto:lute-...@cs.dartmouth.edu] On Behalf Of 
Ron Andrico
Sent: Thursday, February 08, 2018 11:32 AM
To: Susan Sandman; Tristan von Neumann
Cc: lutelist Net
Subject: [LUTE] Re: John Bull's Fantasy XII is Raga Yaman

   [Hello Susan.]

   Your excellent suggestion of applying Schenkerian analysis may help
   provide structure to what I see as a worthwhile exercise in
   cross-cultural similarities, and possibly influences, in historical
   music.

   I listened to the alignment of the two pieces with the ear of a
   composer and as an open minded individual, and I hear the
   similarities.  Mostly what I hear is a distinct alignment in terms of
   the form of the piece, musical form being a rather universal
   commonality across many different cultures and styles.  There is a
   distinct alignment in the phrase structure and the rising and falling
   of pitch groups.

   I'm no specialist but as I understand, the improvisational element in
   Indian classical music has to do with the organization of pitches
   within the framework of the phrase structure while maintaining the
   established historical forms, some of which were borrowed from ancient
   Turkish or Persian music.  This is not much different from improvising
   divisions on a renaissance ground on our instrument that was derived
   from the same Middle-Eastern background.

   Personally, I appreciate the fresh look at cross-cultural historical
   musical similarities and look forward to seeing this play out.

   RA
 __

   From: lute-...@cs.dartmouth.edu  on behalf
   of Susan Sandman 
   Sent: Thursday, February 8, 2018 3:31 PM
   To: Tristan von Neumann
   Cc: lutelist Net
   Subject: [LUTE] Re: John Bull's Fantasy XII is Raga Yaman

  [1]https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Schenkerian_analysis
  Perhaps the theoretical approach of Schenker would be helpful to
  communicate the similarities you are finding between the Bull
   Fantasia,
  Raga Yaman and maybe Castello.   Schenker's system is based on the
  dynamic pull of scale tones. While to me the particularities of the
  musical elaborations unique to each composer/era/culture  is of more
  interest, his approach might clarify the unity of what you are
   hearing.
  Please consult the above link.
  Susan
  [2]www.ElizabethanConversation.com
  On Wed, Feb 7, 2018 at 7:02 PM Tristan von Neumann
  <[3]tristanvonneum...@gmx.de> wrote:
I would not dare to call you a fool if you actually took your time
to
listen :)
In case of my experiments I grant you, there is room for doubt.
But with Fantasy X and XII: Did you *really* listen?
(I hope your disbelief did not impair your hearing. This human
   trait
has
been proven scientifically.)
And if it's not connected, I would be very happy to know:
how do you explain the total weirdness of especially those two
fantasies? There is nothing remotely resembling this, and I have
played
and listened a lot. I would very much love to get other keyboard
pieces
in that style then, regardless :)
However (also to you, G. C.) - it is not the compatible mode, it
   is
also
basic motives of the Raga that can be found exactly at the right
place,
and the matching .
I have yet to organize a real meeting between for example a singer
and a
keyboardist.
If anything, this could be a nice intercultural exchange.
My old musicology professor by the way does agree with the
   finding.
Though due to tempo inconsistecies (if oyu change tempo digitally,
it
sound terrible) I did not post it:
If a Hindustani flute player matches Fantasy XII, it sounds like a
Castello Sonata. I will try and prepare a mix with that, but I
   have
not
yet found the right music source.
Anyone interested may get an mp3 in private email.
Am 07.02.2018 um 23:32 schrieb Arto Wikla:
> Well, I listened carefully all those example combinations of
Bull's
> harpsichord pieces and the suggested similiar(?) raga
performances, and
> sincerely I could not find much in common between them, just two
> different sound clips connected. Tristan von Neumann is of
   course
free
> to name me also "fool" even after I really listened his medleys,
but
> while I definitely strongly disagree his idea... ;-)
>
> all the best,
>
> Arto
>
> On 07/02/18 07:53, Tristan von Neumann wrote:
>>  > Those who would even want to listen are fools.
>>
>> Of course, those who

[LUTE] Re: John Bull's Fantasy XII is Raga Yaman

You might want to organize a concert, where the musicians play together.
Maybe you will then see. It's fun anyway!

Am 08.02.2018 um 17:17 schrieb John Mardinly:

I listened, but only a little, because I found the sound to be so
horrible I just could not stand it. So whatever the musicological
arguments, it is just not musical, IMHO.

A. John Mardinly, Ph.D., P.E.
The Sleep of Reason Produces Monsters
Francisco Goya

On Feb 7, 2018, at 5:01 PM, Tristan von Neumann
<[1]tristanvonneum...@gmx.de> wrote:

I would not dare to call you a fool if you actually took your time to
listen :)
In case of my experiments I grant you, there is room for doubt.
But with Fantasy X and XII: Did you *really* listen?
(I hope your disbelief did not impair your hearing. This human trait
has been proven scientifically.)
And if it's not connected, I would be very happy to know:
how do you explain the total weirdness of especially those two
fantasies? There is nothing remotely resembling this, and I have played
and listened a lot. I would very much love to get other keyboard pieces
in that style then, regardless :)
However (also to you, G. C.) - it is not the compatible mode, it is
also basic motives of the Raga that can be found exactly at the right
place, and the matching .
I have yet to organize a real meeting between for example a singer and
a keyboardist.
If anything, this could be a nice intercultural exchange.
My old musicology professor by the way does agree with the finding.
Though due to tempo inconsistecies (if oyu change tempo digitally, it
sound terrible) I did not post it:
If a Hindustani flute player matches Fantasy XII, it sounds like a
Castello Sonata. I will try and prepare a mix with that, but I have not
yet found the right music source.
Anyone interested may get an mp3 in private email.
Am 07.02.2018 um 23:32 schrieb Arto Wikla:

Well, I listened carefully all those example combinations of Bull's
harpsichord pieces and the suggested similiar(?) raga performances,
and sincerely I could not find much in common between them, just two
different sound clips connected. Tristan von Neumann is of course
free to name me also "fool" even after I really listened his
medleys, but while I definitely strongly disagree his idea... ;-)
all the best,
Arto
On 07/02/18 07:53, Tristan von Neumann wrote:

> Those who would even want to listen are fools.
Of course, those who wouldn't.
Am 07.02.2018 um 06:48 schrieb Tristan von Neumann:

I can't believe almost no one is excited about this discovery.
All those who *still* doubt me, listen to this epic Raga Yaman
accompanied by John Bull's Fantasy XII.
I did nothing but adjust the pitch and placement of the tracks.
[2]https://urldefense.proofpoint.com/v2/url?u=https-3A__soundcloud.c
om_tristan-2Dvon-2Dneumann_fantasy-2Dxii-2Draga-2Dyaman=DwIFaQ=l
45AxH-kUV29SRQusp9vYR0n1GycN4_2jInuKy6zbqQ=VLPJ8OE-c_C6joGeE1ftlvx
MmQPq9N6mpKZONBRt90E=g5Mvdxr8z93ee25sSDwGuVInZTUz9gfXUg7fW3Na1WY
=1xnfxUm7AExv3fynzrS7vu6HqNFQDFHxIUTqS6sE3S4=
Those who would even want to listen are fools.
Like the pope who wouldn't look through Galilei's telescope.
Those who will listen will hear.
To get on or off this list see list information at
https://urldefense.proofpoint.com/v2/url?u=http-3A__www.cs.dartmouth
.edu_-7Ewbc_lute-2Dadmin_index.html=DwIFaQ=l45AxH-kUV29SRQusp9vY
R0n1GycN4_2jInuKy6zbqQ=VLPJ8OE-c_C6joGeE1ftlvxMmQPq9N6mpKZONBRt90E
=g5Mvdxr8z93ee25sSDwGuVInZTUz9gfXUg7fW3Na1WY=V6eR6A5_071tTaJdV-M
4LEK9BGfXmWm5zbd55V9auIo=

References

1. mailto:tristanvonneum...@gmx.de
2.
https://urldefense.proofpoint.com/v2/url?u=https-3A__soundcloud.com_tristan-2Dvon-2Dneumann_fantasy-2Dxii-2Draga-2Dyaman=DwIFaQ=l45AxH-kUV29SRQusp9vYR0n1GycN4_2jInuKy6zbqQ=VLPJ8OE-c_C6joGeE1ftlvxMmQPq9N6mpKZONBRt90E=g5Mvdxr8z93ee25sSDwGuVInZTUz9gfXUg7fW3Na1WY=1xnfxUm7AExv3fynzrS7vu6HqNFQDFHxIUTqS6sE3S4=

[LUTE] Here it is: John Dowland Fantasy 7 - Raga Bilawal.


I have decided to post this anyway

(this is for you, Gene!)

100% match. No excuse for "coincidence". This is consciously planned to 
the detail.
About choosing the point of alignment: it is always the beginning or the 
ending, depending what piece is longer. I never cheat.


This also confirms my hypothesis that John Dowland was the key 
distributor of Ragas


Has anybody wondered where the "Blue notes" in English music come from? 
Now you know.
Whoever played this had great intuition. Maybe he's on the list and 
recognizes his playing. (I pitched the lute higher though...)


Now you know also about the true tempo to play Dowland.
(Relax, Paul :))

https://soundcloud.com/tristan-von-neumann/john-dowland-fantasy-7-alhaiya-bilawal



To get on or off this list see list information at
http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html

[LUTE] Re: Cherbury lute book

2018-02-08 Thread Jarosław Lipski

Thanks Ron,

Yes, I agree in this matter. We canât be sure about Burwellâs intentions.  
In general she seems to contradict herself from time to time. For example once 
she writes: âGaultier of England is excellent, for the goodnes of his hands 
the most swift the neatest and most even that ever were.â In other place she 
comments: "English Gaultier was fit to play in a Cabarett because of his 
thundering way of playingâ. One explanation could be that she had mixed 
feelings about his way of playing, the other that this must be due to the 
additional bass courses of his lute and their extra length which French masters 
rejected (since they overemphasised the bass) - Jacques played 12c lute with 
extended bass strings which might seem extraordinary for her.
I also agree that probably not all pieces composed by Gaultier in Cherbury lute 
book have to be attributed to Jacques, on the other hand just because Jacques's 
contribution in lute music at the court was huge, the chances are that 
considerable percent of them are his original compositions. And this is in line 
with what Matthew Spring writes in 
"The lute in Britain": â It is not exaggeration to say that Jacques Gaultier 
dominated solo lute music at the Caroline court until its removal to Oxford in 
1642. He is mentioned by Herrick in several of his poems, and all subsequent 
writers on lute music in England such as Mace and the author of the Burwell 
Tutor single him out as the most influential lutenist at the English court at 
this timeâ. And later: â His lute music would seem to have had considerable 
circulation in manuscript.â
Obviously I also respect your views, and probably we have to wait with final 
explanations until new convincing data is discovered.

My best regards to you and Donna 

Jaroslaw

> 
>   Thanks for your dissertation, Jaroslaw.  You provide some interesting
>   character sketches that, nevertheless, still leave the Gaultier
>   question open.
> 
>   As for the relationship of Ennemond and Jacques Gaultier, that bit was
>   mined from the quotation I provided from the unnamed tutor of Mary
>   Burwell.  Whether this anecdotal evidence is true or false, we should
>   still be more circumspect as to how we state whether the two Gaultiers
>   in question were related.  We should say that, while there is a
>   surviving contemporary anecdotal account, there exists a distinct
>   absence of evidence to indicate whether or not Ennemond and Jacques
>   Gaultier were kinsmen.  Even so, I suspect Mary Burwell's tutor was
>   speaking (writing) metaphorically, as was the custom.
> 
>   RA
> __
> 
>   From: lute-...@cs.dartmouth.edu  on behalf
>   of JarosÅaw Lipski 
>   Sent: Wednesday, February 7, 2018 8:56 PM
>   To: lute@cs.dartmouth.edu
>   Subject: [LUTE] Re: Cherbury lute book
> 
>   Jean-Marie,
>   This is a vast subject for a long debate. To judge a man's behaviour
>   from 17th century and predict probability of its consequences is not a
>   trivial matter. As historian Miles Fairborn says that: âimpossible,
>   strange and bizarre are less so when placed in their proper context.
>   This is one of the goals of the social historian - to endeavour to see
>   the past from the native's point of view."
>   In other words if we want to asses if certain facts which may seem
>   shocking to people from 21st century would be also shocking 4 centuries
>   ago, we would have to try to understand the reality that  people lived
>   in then.
>   Firstly, most man normally wore various types of weapon. One of the
>   most commonly used swords in 17c was the rapier which had both military
>   and civilian applications. In Europe rapier was a sword that civilians
>   used to bring with them as regular attire. Gentleman wore rapiers to
>   show signs of rank. The more embellished the sword was, the richer and
>   more noble you were. It was also used for duelling. By the end of the
>   17th century it was turned into a small sword. This change began around
>   1630's, and small swords were considered fashionable to wear. Swords
>   were elegant instruments of death that were a symbol of power to anyone
>   who owned one. The gentleman that did have swords as part of their
>   daily attire, probably wanted to benefit from the elegance and power
>   that was present in the sword. Many civilians used daggers as a symbol
>   of prestige and honour. Stilettos (Italian dagger) were developed for
>   self-protection.  Some of them had blades that divide into 3 sections
>   at pus!
>h of a button. They were known as duelling daggers and were invented
>   in France. Also it wasn't uncommon for civilians to also own pistols,
>   which were used for various reasons. Apart from this, one could
>   encounter armed soldiers and guards either on streets or in taverns.
>   Another important factor were drinking habits

[LUTE] Re: John Bull's Fantasy XII is Raga Yaman

I listened, but only a little, because I found the sound to be so
horrible I just could not stand it. So whatever the musicological
arguments, it is just not musical, IMHO.

A. John Mardinly, Ph.D., P.E.
The Sleep of Reason Produces Monsters
Francisco Goya

On Feb 7, 2018, at 5:01 PM, Tristan von Neumann
<[1]tristanvonneum...@gmx.de> wrote:

> Those who would even want to listen are fools.
Of course, those who wouldn't.
Am 07.02.2018 um 06:48 schrieb Tristan von Neumann:

References

[LUTE] Re: John Bull's Fantasy XII is Raga Yaman

Excellent suggestion.

Eugene


-Original Message-
From: lute-...@cs.dartmouth.edu [mailto:lute-...@cs.dartmouth.edu] On Behalf Of 
Susan Sandman
Sent: Thursday, February 08, 2018 10:32 AM
To: Tristan von Neumann
Cc: lutelist Net
Subject: [LUTE] Re: John Bull's Fantasy XII is Raga Yaman

   [1]https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Schenkerian_analysis
   Perhaps the theoretical approach of Schenker would be helpful to
   communicate the similarities you are finding between the Bull Fantasia,
   Raga Yaman and maybe Castello.   Schenker's system is based on the
   dynamic pull of scale tones. While to me the particularities of the
   musical elaborations unique to each composer/era/culture  is of more
   interest, his approach might clarify the unity of what you are hearing.
   Please consult the above link.

   Susan

   [2]www.ElizabethanConversation.com

   On Wed, Feb 7, 2018 at 7:02 PM Tristan von Neumann
   <[3]tristanvonneum...@gmx.de> wrote:

 I would not dare to call you a fool if you actually took your time
 to
 listen :)
 In case of my experiments I grant you, there is room for doubt.
 But with Fantasy X and XII: Did you *really* listen?
 (I hope your disbelief did not impair your hearing. This human trait
 has
 been proven scientifically.)
 And if it's not connected, I would be very happy to know:
 how do you explain the total weirdness of especially those two
 fantasies? There is nothing remotely resembling this, and I have
 played
 and listened a lot. I would very much love to get other keyboard
 pieces
 in that style then, regardless :)
 However (also to you, G. C.) - it is not the compatible mode, it is
 also
 basic motives of the Raga that can be found exactly at the right
 place,
 and the matching .
 I have yet to organize a real meeting between for example a singer
 and a
 keyboardist.
 If anything, this could be a nice intercultural exchange.
 My old musicology professor by the way does agree with the finding.
 Though due to tempo inconsistecies (if oyu change tempo digitally,
 it
 sound terrible) I did not post it:
 If a Hindustani flute player matches Fantasy XII, it sounds like a
 Castello Sonata. I will try and prepare a mix with that, but I have
 not
 yet found the right music source.
 Anyone interested may get an mp3 in private email.
 Am 07.02.2018 um 23:32 schrieb Arto Wikla:
 > Well, I listened carefully all those example combinations of
 Bull's
 > harpsichord pieces and the suggested similiar(?) raga
 performances, and
 > sincerely I could not find much in common between them, just two
 > different sound clips connected. Tristan von Neumann is of course
 free
 > to name me also "fool" even after I really listened his medleys,
 but
 > while I definitely strongly disagree his idea... ;-)
 >
 > all the best,
 >
 > Arto
 >
 > On 07/02/18 07:53, Tristan von Neumann wrote:
 >>  > Those who would even want to listen are fools.
 >>
 >> Of course, those who wouldn't.
 >>
 >> Am 07.02.2018 um 06:48 schrieb Tristan von Neumann:
 >>> I can't believe almost no one is excited about this discovery.
 >>>
 >>> All those who *still* doubt me, listen to this epic Raga Yaman
 >>> accompanied by John Bull's Fantasy XII.
 >>> I did nothing but adjust the pitch and placement of the tracks.
 >>>
 >>>
 [4]https://soundcloud.com/tristan-von-neumann/fantasy-xii-raga-yaman
 >>>
 >>> Those who would even want to listen are fools.
 >>> Like the pope who wouldn't look through Galilei's telescope.
 >>>
 >>> Those who will listen will hear.
 >>>
 >>>
 >>>
 >>> To get on or off this list see list information at
 >>> [5]http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html
 >>>
 >>
 >>
 >
 >
 >

   --

References

   1. https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Schenkerian_analysis
   2. http://www.ElizabethanConversation.com/
   3. mailto:tristanvonneum...@gmx.de
   4. https://soundcloud.com/tristan-von-neumann/fantasy-xii-raga-yaman
   5. http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html

[LUTE] Re: John Bull's Fantasy XII is Raga Yaman

I've conceded that i do hear.  I will also concede to the possibility of 
interaction and influence, but not necessarily to "based upon" without greater 
evidence.  I do not believe you to be a con artist and would not want to imply 
such.  (My "joke" reference was regarding your seemingly comical aggressiveness 
in defending this hypothesis and your interjection of emoticons.  I perhaps 
read more into that than I should have.)

Note that you choose to adjust at which point the alignment begins.  I have not 
been provided evidence that what follows the point of alignment is more than 
the coincidences of Indo-European musical constructs.  You've not addressed my 
point that Indian classical music incorporates improvisation and that modern 
performances of such may have just as likely been influenced by hearing 
European renaissance composition.  Supporting evidence may be confirmation in 
the writings of renaissance composers or their contemporaries alluding to a 
composition being directly based upon a raga or even titled to imply such.  
There is plenty of writing *about* music making from the era.

I am bragging about nothing (the name, by the way, is pronounced like "bregg"), 
but simply trying to explain the origins of my personal perspective.  My 
education is not necessarily any better than anybody else's, but may be 
different.

I'm not certain I have much more to say on this.

Eugene


-Original Message-
From: lute-...@cs.dartmouth.edu [mailto:lute-...@cs.dartmouth.edu] On Behalf Of 
Tristan von Neumann
Sent: Thursday, February 08, 2018 10:30 AM
To: lutelist Net
Subject: [LUTE] Re: John Bull's Fantasy XII is Raga Yaman

Well then, let's make this public then.

Yes, you are living in darkness for not wanting to hear the relation!

You basically accuse me of being a con artist. This is not ok.
I don't even want your money, I am *giving* you my discovery for pure joy of 
discovery.

Let's make this a challenge (this for everyone).

The Echo Fantasia is not really a difficult work for a normal Organist.
If you know any Indian Classical musician, and an organist, have the latter 
play, and the former listen to it and have him choose a Raga.
I bet it will be Aswari (Fantasia ex A = Aswari!), and I say he will be able to 
perform his Raga. Add a tabla player for the right rhythm.

Eugene, there is no need to Braig about your "scientific education".
If experiments don't convince you, what then? The discussion? The conclusion?
Again, let this sink in: I did not edit the tracks! It works every time!
If the Raga performance is longer, you can even loop the Fantasy and you get 
new aspects of the Raga matching them. The sections always match, and there are 
distinct functions of the segments, and these are even imitated in the Keyboard 
works, down to the exact gestures.
Why are you not able to hear that?
Dudes, the "Stretta" that appears after 1600 is *Indian*.

But as it says in the Bible and countless other stories:
Those who don't want to see the truth are blind.
Or in this case, hear.

I cannot say if my peers are like the blind ones or not.

What I can say is that I will publish my findings one way or the other - for 
those who are not hearing it already, it probably must be.

Have a great one.
And thanks to all those who like my discovery. Be sure to follow my soundcloud 
for new pieces.
I suspect Dowland is a key person, so I will try to find Ragas for the 
Fantasies. I will NOT post these here with the naysayers, and for fear of 
Arthur Ness getting a heart attack.

Add me on soundcloud:
https://soundcloud.com/tristan-von-neumann/sets/early-17th-century-euro-indian

Have a great day you all. I pray for the naysayers.

Am 08.02.2018 um 16:11 schrieb Braig, Eugene:
> Tristan wrote to me directly without copying the list.  Out of respect to 
> whatever his intent may be, I will not forward his personal reply.  I will, 
> however, share my own replies to him:
> 
> "Yeah, I don't mind looking foolish.  Given the semi-improvisatorial nature 
> of Indian classical music, any modern recording of raga to overlay any set 
> renaissance composition must be coincidental.  Given humanity's aural 
> expectation of resolving to a cadence or nyasa [the Indian version of 
> cadence], I would assume a fair number of coincidences between the two would 
> occur.  Assuming conclusive proof of causation (instead of simple 
> coincidence) without supporting documentation strikes me as fallacious.  I am 
> a scientist on the day job and my parlance is skepticism."
> 
> 
> Thinking more on this, if a modern recording of semi-improvised raga does 
> overlay a written renaissance fantasia by virtue of inspiration, that 
> inspiration is more likely to have been in the opposite direction of that 
> proposed.
> 
> And, regarding why sections might roughly align between raga and renaissance 
> fantasia and that the inability to "hear" constitutes my own dwelling in 
> "darkness" (the tastiest criticisms are omitted

[LUTE] Re: John Bull's Fantasy XII is Raga Yaman

Thank you Susan!
I am aware of Schenker - I studied musicology back in the day.
This would be indeed the best approach, but I guess it is possible to 
find the exact match when analyzing just what is there.
Indian understanding - as it appears to me - basically *is* Schenkerian, 
so I guess this step could be skipped.

What is your opinion about the Echo Fantasy?

https://soundcloud.com/tristan-von-neumann/sweelinck-echo-fantasia-ex-a-raga-asawari

Am 08.02.2018 um 16:31 schrieb Susan Sandman:

https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Schenkerian_analysis

Perhaps the theoretical approach of Schenker would be helpful to 
communicate the similarities you are finding between the Bull Fantasia, 
Raga Yaman and maybe Castello.  Schenker’s system is based on the 
dynamic pull of scale tones. While to me the particularities of the 
musical elaborations unique to each composer/era/culture  is of more 
interest, his approach might clarify the unity of what you are hearing. 
Please consult the above link.

Susan
www.ElizabethanConversation.com 

On Wed, Feb 7, 2018 at 7:02 PM Tristan von Neumann 
> wrote:

I would not dare to call you a fool if you actually took your time to
listen :)
In case of my experiments I grant you, there is room for doubt.
But with Fantasy X and XII: Did you *really* listen?
(I hope your disbelief did not impair your hearing. This human trait has
been proven scientifically.)
And if it's not connected, I would be very happy to know:
how do you explain the total weirdness of especially those two
fantasies? There is nothing remotely resembling this, and I have played
and listened a lot. I would very much love to get other keyboard pieces
in that style then, regardless :)

However (also to you, G. C.) - it is not the compatible mode, it is also
basic motives of the Raga that can be found exactly at the right place,
and the matching .
I have yet to organize a real meeting between for example a singer and a
keyboardist.
If anything, this could be a nice intercultural exchange.

My old musicology professor by the way does agree with the finding.
Though due to tempo inconsistecies (if oyu change tempo digitally, it
sound terrible) I did not post it:
If a Hindustani flute player matches Fantasy XII, it sounds like a
Castello Sonata. I will try and prepare a mix with that, but I have not
yet found the right music source.
Anyone interested may get an mp3 in private email.

Am 07.02.2018 um 23:32 schrieb Arto Wikla:
 > Well, I listened carefully all those example combinations of Bull's
 > harpsichord pieces and the suggested similiar(?) raga
performances, and
 > sincerely I could not find much in common between them, just two
 > different sound clips connected. Tristan von Neumann is of course
free
 > to name me also "fool" even after I really listened his medleys, but
 > while I definitely strongly disagree his idea... ;-)
 >
 > all the best,
 >
 > Arto
 >
 > On 07/02/18 07:53, Tristan von Neumann wrote:
 >>  > Those who would even want to listen are fools.
 >>
 >> Of course, those who wouldn't.
 >>
 >> Am 07.02.2018 um 06:48 schrieb Tristan von Neumann:
 >>> I can't believe almost no one is excited about this discovery.
 >>>
 >>> All those who *still* doubt me, listen to this epic Raga Yaman
 >>> accompanied by John Bull's Fantasy XII.
 >>> I did nothing but adjust the pitch and placement of the tracks.
 >>>
 >>> https://soundcloud.com/tristan-von-neumann/fantasy-xii-raga-yaman
 >>>
 >>> Those who would even want to listen are fools.
 >>> Like the pope who wouldn't look through Galilei's telescope.
 >>>
 >>> Those who will listen will hear.
 >>>
 >>>
 >>>
 >>> To get on or off this list see list information at
 >>> http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html
 >>>
 >>
 >>
 >
 >
 >

[LUTE] Re: John Bull's Fantasy XII is Raga Yaman

2018-02-08 Thread Susan Sandman

   [1]https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Schenkerian_analysis
   Perhaps the theoretical approach of Schenker would be helpful to
   communicate the similarities you are finding between the Bull Fantasia,
   Raga Yaman and maybe Castello.   Schenker's system is based on the
   dynamic pull of scale tones. While to me the particularities of the
   musical elaborations unique to each composer/era/culture  is of more
   interest, his approach might clarify the unity of what you are hearing.
   Please consult the above link.

   Susan

   [2]www.ElizabethanConversation.com

   On Wed, Feb 7, 2018 at 7:02 PM Tristan von Neumann
   <[3]tristanvonneum...@gmx.de> wrote:

 I would not dare to call you a fool if you actually took your time
 to
 listen :)
 In case of my experiments I grant you, there is room for doubt.
 But with Fantasy X and XII: Did you *really* listen?
 (I hope your disbelief did not impair your hearing. This human trait
 has
 been proven scientifically.)
 And if it's not connected, I would be very happy to know:
 how do you explain the total weirdness of especially those two
 fantasies? There is nothing remotely resembling this, and I have
 played
 and listened a lot. I would very much love to get other keyboard
 pieces
 in that style then, regardless :)
 However (also to you, G. C.) - it is not the compatible mode, it is
 also
 basic motives of the Raga that can be found exactly at the right
 place,
 and the matching .
 I have yet to organize a real meeting between for example a singer
 and a
 keyboardist.
 If anything, this could be a nice intercultural exchange.
 My old musicology professor by the way does agree with the finding.
 Though due to tempo inconsistecies (if oyu change tempo digitally,
 it
 sound terrible) I did not post it:
 If a Hindustani flute player matches Fantasy XII, it sounds like a
 Castello Sonata. I will try and prepare a mix with that, but I have
 not
 yet found the right music source.
 Anyone interested may get an mp3 in private email.
 Am 07.02.2018 um 23:32 schrieb Arto Wikla:
 > Well, I listened carefully all those example combinations of
 Bull's
 > harpsichord pieces and the suggested similiar(?) raga
 performances, and
 > sincerely I could not find much in common between them, just two
 > different sound clips connected. Tristan von Neumann is of course
 free
 > to name me also "fool" even after I really listened his medleys,
 but
 > while I definitely strongly disagree his idea... ;-)
 >
 > all the best,
 >
 > Arto
 >
 > On 07/02/18 07:53, Tristan von Neumann wrote:
 >>  > Those who would even want to listen are fools.
 >>
 >> Of course, those who wouldn't.
 >>
 >> Am 07.02.2018 um 06:48 schrieb Tristan von Neumann:
 >>> I can't believe almost no one is excited about this discovery.
 >>>
 >>> All those who *still* doubt me, listen to this epic Raga Yaman
 >>> accompanied by John Bull's Fantasy XII.
 >>> I did nothing but adjust the pitch and placement of the tracks.
 >>>
 >>>
 [4]https://soundcloud.com/tristan-von-neumann/fantasy-xii-raga-yaman
 >>>
 >>> Those who would even want to listen are fools.
 >>> Like the pope who wouldn't look through Galilei's telescope.
 >>>
 >>> Those who will listen will hear.
 >>>
 >>>
 >>>
 >>> To get on or off this list see list information at
 >>> [5]http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html
 >>>
 >>
 >>
 >
 >
 >

   --

References

   1. https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Schenkerian_analysis
   2. http://www.ElizabethanConversation.com/
   3. mailto:tristanvonneum...@gmx.de
   4. https://soundcloud.com/tristan-von-neumann/fantasy-xii-raga-yaman
   5. http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html

[LUTE] Re: John Bull's Fantasy XII is Raga Yaman


Well then, let's make this public then.

Yes, you are living in darkness for not wanting to hear the relation!

You basically accuse me of being a con artist. This is not ok.
I don't even want your money, I am *giving* you my discovery for pure 
joy of discovery.


Let's make this a challenge (this for everyone).

The Echo Fantasia is not really a difficult work for a normal Organist.
If you know any Indian Classical musician, and an organist, have the 
latter play, and the former listen to it and have him choose a Raga.
I bet it will be Aswari (Fantasia ex A = Aswari!), and I say he will be 
able to perform his Raga. Add a tabla player for the right rhythm.


Eugene, there is no need to Braig about your "scientific education".
If experiments don't convince you, what then? The discussion? The 
conclusion?

Again, let this sink in: I did not edit the tracks! It works every time!
If the Raga performance is longer, you can even loop the Fantasy and you 
get new aspects of the Raga matching them. The sections always match, 
and there are distinct functions of the segments, and these are even 
imitated in the Keyboard works, down to the exact gestures.

Why are you not able to hear that?
Dudes, the "Stretta" that appears after 1600 is *Indian*.

But as it says in the Bible and countless other stories:
Those who don't want to see the truth are blind.
Or in this case, hear.

I cannot say if my peers are like the blind ones or not.

What I can say is that I will publish my findings one way or the other - 
for those who are not hearing it already, it probably must be.


Have a great one.
And thanks to all those who like my discovery. Be sure to follow my 
soundcloud for new pieces.
I suspect Dowland is a key person, so I will try to find Ragas for the 
Fantasies. I will NOT post these here with the naysayers, and for fear 
of Arthur Ness getting a heart attack.


Add me on soundcloud:
https://soundcloud.com/tristan-von-neumann/sets/early-17th-century-euro-indian

Have a great day you all. I pray for the naysayers.

Am 08.02.2018 um 16:11 schrieb Braig, Eugene:

Tristan wrote to me directly without copying the list.  Out of respect to 
whatever his intent may be, I will not forward his personal reply.  I will, 
however, share my own replies to him:

"Yeah, I don't mind looking foolish.  Given the semi-improvisatorial nature of 
Indian classical music, any modern recording of raga to overlay any set renaissance 
composition must be coincidental.  Given humanity's aural expectation of resolving to a 
cadence or nyasa [the Indian version of cadence], I would assume a fair number of 
coincidences between the two would occur.  Assuming conclusive proof of causation 
(instead of simple coincidence) without supporting documentation strikes me as 
fallacious.  I am a scientist on the day job and my parlance is skepticism."


Thinking more on this, if a modern recording of semi-improvised raga does 
overlay a written renaissance fantasia by virtue of inspiration, that 
inspiration is more likely to have been in the opposite direction of that 
proposed.

And, regarding why sections might roughly align between raga and renaissance fantasia and that the 
inability to "hear" constitutes my own dwelling in "darkness" (the tastiest 
criticisms are omitted here), this was followed by:

"Coincidence.  Music tends to be organized into 'sections' wherever it's occurred.  
The expectation of evidence beyond coincidence doesn't feel like darkness to me."


To the first note I had appended:

"I would have copied this [reply] to the list, but am not certain why you didn't, 
Tristan.  I suspect it may be to contain a joke, to see how far it can be carried among 
the uninitiated."


I will await the scholarly publication following peer review.

My best wishes are with you all.

Eugene


-Original Message-
From: Braig, Eugene
Sent: Thursday, February 08, 2018 9:19 AM
To: lutelist Net
Subject: RE: [LUTE] Re: John Bull's Fantasy XII is Raga Yaman

Aye.  Thank you, gentlemen.

Eugene


-Original Message-
From: lute-...@cs.dartmouth.edu [mailto:lute-...@cs.dartmouth.edu] On Behalf Of 
G. C.
Sent: Wednesday, February 07, 2018 5:46 PM
To: lutelist Net
Subject: [LUTE] Re: John Bull's Fantasy XII is Raga Yaman

I agree with you Arto. The first example is quite amazing in its
compatibility. Due to a common scale, the forced duet somehow sounds
compatible. I would say a musical quirk and a coincidence. How could
Indian music be compatible with Western renaissance. No chance!
And the other examples are even less impressive, even contradictive.
Nice try Tristan! :)
G.
On Wed, Feb 7, 2018 at 11:32 PM, Arto Wikla <[1]wi...@cs.dartmouth.edu>
wrote:

  Well, I listened carefully all those example combinations of Bull's
  harpsichord pieces and the suggested similiar(?) raga performances,
  and sincerely I could not find much in common between them, just two
  different sound clips

[LUTE] Re: John Bull's Fantasy XII is Raga Yaman

Tristan wrote to me directly without copying the list.  Out of respect to 
whatever his intent may be, I will not forward his personal reply.  I will, 
however, share my own replies to him:

"Yeah, I don't mind looking foolish.  Given the semi-improvisatorial nature of 
Indian classical music, any modern recording of raga to overlay any set 
renaissance composition must be coincidental.  Given humanity's aural 
expectation of resolving to a cadence or nyasa [the Indian version of cadence], 
I would assume a fair number of coincidences between the two would occur.  
Assuming conclusive proof of causation (instead of simple coincidence) without 
supporting documentation strikes me as fallacious.  I am a scientist on the day 
job and my parlance is skepticism."


Thinking more on this, if a modern recording of semi-improvised raga does 
overlay a written renaissance fantasia by virtue of inspiration, that 
inspiration is more likely to have been in the opposite direction of that 
proposed.

And, regarding why sections might roughly align between raga and renaissance 
fantasia and that the inability to "hear" constitutes my own dwelling in 
"darkness" (the tastiest criticisms are omitted here), this was followed by:

"Coincidence.  Music tends to be organized into 'sections' wherever it's 
occurred.  The expectation of evidence beyond coincidence doesn't feel like 
darkness to me."


To the first note I had appended:

"I would have copied this [reply] to the list, but am not certain why you 
didn't, Tristan.  I suspect it may be to contain a joke, to see how far it can 
be carried among the uninitiated."


I will await the scholarly publication following peer review.

My best wishes are with you all.

Eugene


-Original Message-
From: Braig, Eugene 
Sent: Thursday, February 08, 2018 9:19 AM
To: lutelist Net
Subject: RE: [LUTE] Re: John Bull's Fantasy XII is Raga Yaman

Aye.  Thank you, gentlemen.

Eugene


-Original Message-
From: lute-...@cs.dartmouth.edu [mailto:lute-...@cs.dartmouth.edu] On Behalf Of 
G. C.
Sent: Wednesday, February 07, 2018 5:46 PM
To: lutelist Net
Subject: [LUTE] Re: John Bull's Fantasy XII is Raga Yaman

   I agree with you Arto. The first example is quite amazing in its
   compatibility. Due to a common scale, the forced duet somehow sounds
   compatible. I would say a musical quirk and a coincidence. How could
   Indian music be compatible with Western renaissance. No chance!
   And the other examples are even less impressive, even contradictive.
   Nice try Tristan! :)
   G.
   On Wed, Feb 7, 2018 at 11:32 PM, Arto Wikla <[1]wi...@cs.dartmouth.edu>
   wrote:

 Well, I listened carefully all those example combinations of Bull's
 harpsichord pieces and the suggested similiar(?) raga performances,
 and sincerely I could not find much in common between them, just two
 different sound clips connected. Tristan von Neumann is of course
 free to name me also "fool" even after I really listened his
 medleys, but while I definitely strongly disagree his idea... ;-)
 all the best,
 Arto
 On 07/02/18 07:53, Tristan von Neumann wrote:

  > Those who would even want to listen are fools.
 Of course, those who wouldn't.
 Am 07.02.2018 um 06:48 schrieb Tristan von Neumann:

 I can't believe almost no one is excited about this discovery.
 All those who *still* doubt me, listen to this epic Raga Yaman
 accompanied by John Bull's Fantasy XII.
 I did nothing but adjust the pitch and placement of the tracks.
 [2]https://soundcloud.com/tristan-von-neumann/fantasy-xii-raga-yaman
 Those who would even want to listen are fools.
 Like the pope who wouldn't look through Galilei's telescope.
 Those who will listen will hear.
 To get on or off this list see list information at
 [3]http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html

   --

References

   1. mailto:wi...@cs.dartmouth.edu
   2. https://soundcloud.com/tristan-von-neumann/fantasy-xii-raga-yaman
   3. http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html

[LUTE] Re: John Bull's Fantasy XII is Raga Yaman

Aye.  Thank you, gentlemen.

Eugene

-Original Message-
From: lute-...@cs.dartmouth.edu [mailto:lute-...@cs.dartmouth.edu] On Behalf Of 
G. C.
Sent: Wednesday, February 07, 2018 5:46 PM
To: lutelist Net
Subject: [LUTE] Re: John Bull's Fantasy XII is Raga Yaman

   I agree with you Arto. The first example is quite amazing in its
   compatibility. Due to a common scale, the forced duet somehow sounds
   compatible. I would say a musical quirk and a coincidence. How could
   Indian music be compatible with Western renaissance. No chance!
   And the other examples are even less impressive, even contradictive.
   Nice try Tristan! :)
   G.
   On Wed, Feb 7, 2018 at 11:32 PM, Arto Wikla <[1]wi...@cs.dartmouth.edu>
   wrote:

 Well, I listened carefully all those example combinations of Bull's
 harpsichord pieces and the suggested similiar(?) raga performances,
 and sincerely I could not find much in common between them, just two
 different sound clips connected. Tristan von Neumann is of course
 free to name me also "fool" even after I really listened his
 medleys, but while I definitely strongly disagree his idea... ;-)
 all the best,
 Arto
 On 07/02/18 07:53, Tristan von Neumann wrote:

  > Those who would even want to listen are fools.
 Of course, those who wouldn't.
 Am 07.02.2018 um 06:48 schrieb Tristan von Neumann:

 I can't believe almost no one is excited about this discovery.
 All those who *still* doubt me, listen to this epic Raga Yaman
 accompanied by John Bull's Fantasy XII.
 I did nothing but adjust the pitch and placement of the tracks.
 [2]https://soundcloud.com/tristan-von-neumann/fantasy-xii-raga-yaman
 Those who would even want to listen are fools.
 Like the pope who wouldn't look through Galilei's telescope.
 Those who will listen will hear.
 To get on or off this list see list information at
 [3]http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html

   --

References

   1. mailto:wi...@cs.dartmouth.edu
   2. https://soundcloud.com/tristan-von-neumann/fantasy-xii-raga-yaman
   3. http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html

[LUTE] Sweelinck's Echo Fantasia ex A is a direct copy of Raga Asawari


Folks, *this is my final offer to you*

Whoever does *not* hear that this is the same piece, is amusical, or 
can't accept the f***ing truth. Seriously guys.


The Fantasia starts so that both pieces end simultaneously.
Slight tempo fluctuations due to the organ player.
Nevertheless, *you WILL hear it* too.

https://soundcloud.com/tristan-von-neumann/sweelinck-echo-fantasia-ex-a-raga-asawari



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[LUTE] Re: German song questions

2018-02-08 Thread Joachim Lüdtke

Oh yes, they have moved out of that beautiful house in the Silberbachstrasse, 
haven't they ...

And I have never yet been able to profit from their online database either.

Joachim


-Original-Nachricht-
Betreff: [LUTE] Re: German song  questions
Datum: 2018-02-08T11:20:57+0100
Von: "Ralf Mattes" 
An: "Joachim Lüdtke" 

 
Am Donnerstag, 08. Februar 2018 10:29 CET, Joachim Lüdtke 
 schrieb: 
 
> Dear Robert, dear Rainer,
> 
> original sources can (sometimes) be found by looking into Norbert Böker-Heil 
> et al. (eds.); "Das Tenorlied". 3 Vols Kassel etc. 1979 - 1986.

That would be the first place to look, haven't access to it right now, 
unfortunately.
 
> This is a source catalogue of songbooks both manuscript and printed from 1450 
> to 1580. Vol. 3 contains the indexes. "Vnser magt kan ausz der massen"  = 
> Songbook printed by Egenolff in Frankfurt, [1535], nr. 15 (anon.).

Do you happen to know in which Egenolff print this is suppoed to be? I'm 
looking at the Gassenhawerlin and 
Reuterliedlin from 1535 and can' t find it in neither.

> If you have access to "Denkmäler der Tonkunst in Oesterreich", you may find 
> texts to the intavolations in the critical commentary to Koczirz's edition of 
> Newsidler, Judenkunig & Co. in Vol. 37  (I don't have this at hand, so: just 
> an idea).
> 
> The Deutsche Volksliederarchiv in Freiburg may also be helpful ...

Hmm, I had mixed results last time I visited (~20 years ago). Also the changed 
their focus (now called 
"Zentrum für Populäre Kultur und Musik") and, unfortunately, their beatiful 
location. BTW, their online
database (http://www.liederlexikon.de/) doesn't list the song.

 Cheers, RalfD

 
 
 





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[LUTE] Re: German song questions

2018-02-08 Thread Joachim Lüdtke

Dear Ralf, dear all

sorry – I was unprecise. [1535]15 = [Frankfurt a.M.], [C. Egenolff]. This is 
neither "Gassenhawerlin" nor "Reutterliedlein" or any other of the Egenolff 
prints from 1535 which we can call by their titles, but a fragmentary one, 
lacking the Tenor partbook which would have contained a title page and 
colophon. The library is D-Mbs, Mus.pr. 46#Beibd.2, digitized to be seen under 
http://stimmbuecher.digitale-sammlungen.de/view?id=bsb00086384

It is nr. 15 and you will see that in the lyrics there are neither Crabaten, 
nor mercenaries from Hrvatska, nor crabs.

Best

Joachim
 


-Original-Nachricht-
Betreff: Re: [LUTE] Re: German song questions
Datum: 2018-02-08T11:20:07+0100
Von: "Ralf Mattes" 
An: "Joachim Lüdtke" 


Am Donnerstag, 08. Februar 2018 10:29 CET, Joachim Lüdtke 
 schrieb:

> Dear Robert, dear Rainer,
>
> original sources can (sometimes) be found by looking into Norbert Böker-Heil 
> et al. (eds.); "Das Tenorlied". 3 Vols Kassel etc. 1979 - 1986.

That would be the first place to look, haven't access to it right now, 
unfortunately.

> This is a source catalogue of songbooks both manuscript and printed from 1450 
> to 1580. Vol. 3 contains the indexes. "Vnser magt kan ausz der massen"  = 
> Songbook printed by Egenolff in Frankfurt, [1535], nr. 15 (anon.).

Do you happen to know in which Egenolff print this is suppoed to be? I'm 
looking at the Gassenhawerlin and
Reuterliedlin from 1535 and can' t find it in neither.

> If you have access to "Denkmäler der Tonkunst in Oesterreich", you may find 
> texts to the intavolations in the critical commentary to Koczirz's edition of 
> Newsidler, Judenkunig & Co. in Vol. 37  (I don't have this at hand, so: just 
> an idea).
>
> The Deutsche Volksliederarchiv in Freiburg may also be helpful ...

Hmm, I had mixed results last time I visited (~20 years ago). Also the changed 
their focus (now called
"Zentrum für Populäre Kultur und Musik") and, unfortunately, their beatiful 
location. BTW, their online
database (http://www.liederlexikon.de/) doesn't list the song.

 Cheers, RalfD










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http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html

[LUTE] Re: German song questions

 
Am Donnerstag, 08. Februar 2018 12:11 CET, "Ralf Mattes"  
schrieb: 
  
> 
> > song is that young. Of course, if Böhme's apparatus  is correct his version 
> > is from the 18th century.
> 

 Argh, typo. Werlin is of course first half of 17th century.
  
 Cheers, RalfD

 
 
 





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[LUTE] Re: German song questions

 
Am Donnerstag, 08. Februar 2018 12:11 CET, "Ralf Mattes"  
schrieb: 
 

> song is that young. Of course, if Böhme's apparatus  is correct his version 
> is from the 18th century.

Argh, typo. Werlin is of course first half of 17th century.
 
Cheers, RalfD

 
 
 





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[LUTE] Re: German song questions


Online "Grimm's Wörterbuch" says:

Krabat is an old word for "Croat", and it refers also to wild kids.

Am 08.02.2018 um 11:49 schrieb b...@symbol4.de:

As it seems in this case they were prowling soldiers who were looking
for food. I assume that "good for the Crabates" means that the food
really wasn't very good...

Gesendet: Donnerstag, 08. Februar 2018 um 11:39 Uhr
Von: Rainer 
An: Lutelist 
Betreff: [LUTE] Re: German song questions
Crabaten should be Kroaten (Croatians)
I have no idea why they should appear here.
Rainer
On 08.02.2018 11:24, G. C. wrote:
> Crabaten could perhaps be "kids"
>
> On Thu, Feb 8, 2018 at 11:17 AM, Robert Barto <[1]r.ba...@gmx.de>
> wrote:
>
> Thank you all.
> After Rainer's mail I was amazed to find BÃ¶hme's book on Google
> books
> where I could even download a pdf of all 900 pages.
> The song is listed under "Tanz - und Scherzliedchen".
> Unsere KÃ¶chin kann aus der Masssen kochen wol,
> Auch das aller beste, was man essen sol,
> Sey gsotten oder braten ist alles gut geraten
> taugt wohl fÃ¼r die Crabaten.
> She apparently cooks Gsotten (boiled meat?) and Braten and it
> is
> suitable for the Crabaten (crabs?).
> Robert
> Virenfrei. [1][2][1]www.avast.com
> --
> References
> Visible links
> 1. [3][2]https://www.avast.com/sig-email?utm_medium=email_
> source=link_campaign=sig-email_content=emailclient
> Hidden links:
> 3. [4][3]https://www.avast.com/sig-email?utm_medium=email_
> source=link_campaign=sig-email_content=emailclient
> 4. file://localhost/net/ifs-users/lute-arc/L16509-1327TMP.
> html#DAB4FAD8-2DD7-40BB-A1B8-4E2AA1F9FDF2
> To get on or off this list see list information at
> [5][4]http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html
>
> --
>
> References
>
> 1. mailto:r.ba...@gmx.de
> 2. [5]http://www.avast.com/
> 3.
[6]https://www.avast.com/sig-email?utm_medium=email_source=link
_campaign=sig-email_content=emailclient
> 4.
[7]https://www.avast.com/sig-email?utm_medium=email_source=link
_campaign=sig-email_content=emailclient
> 5. [8]http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html
>
>

References

1. http://www.avast.com/
2. https://www.avast.com/sig-email?utm_medium=email_
3. https://www.avast.com/sig-email?utm_medium=email_
4. http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html
5. http://www.avast.com/
6. 
https://www.avast.com/sig-email?utm_medium=email_source=link_campaign=sig-email_content=emailclient
7. 
https://www.avast.com/sig-email?utm_medium=email_source=link_campaign=sig-email_content=emailclient
8. http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html

[LUTE] Re: German song questions

 
Am Donnerstag, 08. Februar 2018 11:39 CET, Rainer  
schrieb: 
 
> Crabaten should be Kroaten (Croatians)

More specific, kroatian mercenaries. But that would be an awfully early 
apearance. They fought
for the emperor during the 30 year war (from ~1620). 
There _might_ have been kroatian soldiers during the first siege of Vienna 
1529, but I doubt the
song is that young. Of course, if Böhme's apparatus  is correct his version is 
from the 18th century.
Those text often have quite some variance and often where rewritten and adapted.

Cheers, RalfD






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[LUTE] Re: German song questions

2018-02-08 Thread b...@symbol4.de

   As it seems in this case they were prowling soldiers who were looking
   for food. I assume that "good for the Crabates" means that the food
   really wasn't very good...

   Gesendet: Donnerstag, 08. Februar 2018 um 11:39 Uhr
   Von: Rainer 
   An: Lutelist 
   Betreff: [LUTE] Re: German song questions
   Crabaten should be Kroaten (Croatians)
   I have no idea why they should appear here.
   Rainer
   On 08.02.2018 11:24, G. C. wrote:
   > Crabaten could perhaps be "kids"
   >
   > On Thu, Feb 8, 2018 at 11:17 AM, Robert Barto <[1]r.ba...@gmx.de>
   > wrote:
   >
   > Thank you all.
   > After Rainer's mail I was amazed to find BÃÂ¶hme's book on Google
   > books
   > where I could even download a pdf of all 900 pages.
   > The song is listed under "Tanz - und Scherzliedchen".
   > Unsere KÃÂ¶chin kann aus der Masssen kochen wol,
   > Auch das aller beste, was man essen sol,
   > Sey gsotten oder braten ist alles gut geraten
   > taugt wohl fÃÂ¼r die Crabaten.
   > She apparently cooks Gsotten (boiled meat?) and Braten and it
   > is
   > suitable for the Crabaten (crabs?).
   > Robert
   > Virenfrei. [1][2][1]www.avast.com
   > --
   > References
   > Visible links
   > 1. [3][2]https://www.avast.com/sig-email?utm_medium=email_
   > source=link_campaign=sig-email_content=emailclient
   > Hidden links:
   > 3. [4][3]https://www.avast.com/sig-email?utm_medium=email_
   > source=link_campaign=sig-email_content=emailclient
   > 4. file://localhost/net/ifs-users/lute-arc/L16509-1327TMP.
   > html#DAB4FAD8-2DD7-40BB-A1B8-4E2AA1F9FDF2
   > To get on or off this list see list information at
   > [5][4]http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html
   >
   > --
   >
   > References
   >
   > 1. mailto:r.ba...@gmx.de
   > 2. [5]http://www.avast.com/
   > 3.
   [6]https://www.avast.com/sig-email?utm_medium=email_source=link
   _campaign=sig-email_content=emailclient
   > 4.
   [7]https://www.avast.com/sig-email?utm_medium=email_source=link
   _campaign=sig-email_content=emailclient
   > 5. [8]http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html
   >
   >

References

   1. http://www.avast.com/
   2. https://www.avast.com/sig-email?utm_medium=email_
   3. https://www.avast.com/sig-email?utm_medium=email_
   4. http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html
   5. http://www.avast.com/
   6. 
https://www.avast.com/sig-email?utm_medium=email_source=link_campaign=sig-email_content=emailclient
   7. 
https://www.avast.com/sig-email?utm_medium=email_source=link_campaign=sig-email_content=emailclient
   8. http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html

[LUTE] Re: German song questions

2018-02-08 Thread Rainer


Crabaten should be Kroaten (Croatians)

I have no idea why they should appear here.

Rainer

On 08.02.2018 11:24, G. C. wrote:

Crabaten could perhaps be "kids"

On Thu, Feb 8, 2018 at 11:17 AM, Robert Barto <[1]r.ba...@gmx.de>
wrote:

 Thank you all.
 After Rainer's mail I was amazed to find BÃ¶hme's book on Google
  books
 where I could even   download a pdf of all 900 pages.
 The song is listed under "Tanz - und Scherzliedchen".
 Unsere KÃ¶chin kann aus der Masssen kochen wol,
 Auch das aller beste, was man essen sol,
 Sey gsotten oder braten ist alles gut geraten
 taugt wohl fÃ¼r die Crabaten.
 She apparently cooks Gsotten (boiled meat?)   and Braten and it
  is
 suitable for the   Crabaten (crabs?).
 Robert
 Virenfrei. [1][2]www.avast.com
 --
  References
 Visible links
 1. [3]https://www.avast.com/sig-email?utm_medium=email_
  source=link_campaign=sig-email_content=emailclient
 Hidden links:
 3. [4]https://www.avast.com/sig-email?utm_medium=email_
  source=link_campaign=sig-email_content=emailclient
 4. file://localhost/net/ifs-users/lute-arc/L16509-1327TMP.
  html#DAB4FAD8-2DD7-40BB-A1B8-4E2AA1F9FDF2
  To get on or off this list see list information at
  [5]http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html

--

References

1. mailto:r.ba...@gmx.de
2. http://www.avast.com/
3. 
https://www.avast.com/sig-email?utm_medium=email_source=link_campaign=sig-email_content=emailclient
4. 
https://www.avast.com/sig-email?utm_medium=email_source=link_campaign=sig-email_content=emailclient
5. http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html

[LUTE] Re: German song questions

2018-02-08 Thread b...@symbol4.de

   for Crabaten see
   https://de.wikipedia.org/wiki/Kroatische_Reiterei



   Gesendet: Donnerstag, 08. Februar 2018 um 11:17 Uhr
   Von: "Robert Barto" 
   An: lute@cs.dartmouth.edu
   Betreff: [LUTE] German song questions
   Thank you all.
   After Rainer's mail I was amazed to find BÃÂ¶hme's book on Google books
   where I could even download a pdf of all 900 pages.
   The song is listed under "Tanz - und Scherzliedchen".
   Unsere KÃÂ¶chin kann aus der Masssen kochen wol,
   Auch das aller beste, was man essen sol,
   Sey gsotten oder braten ist alles gut geraten
   taugt wohl fÃÂ¼r die Crabaten.
   She apparently cooks Gsotten (boiled meat?) and Braten and it is
   suitable for the Crabaten (crabs?).
   Robert
   Virenfrei. [1][1]www.avast.com
   --
   References
   Visible links
   1.
   [2]https://www.avast.com/sig-email?utm_medium=email_source=link
   _campaign=sig-email_content=emailclient
   Hidden links:
   3.
   [3]https://www.avast.com/sig-email?utm_medium=email_source=link
   _campaign=sig-email_content=emailclient
   4.
   file://localhost/net/ifs-users/lute-arc/L16509-1327TMP.html#DAB4FAD8-2D
   D7-40BB-A1B8-4E2AA1F9FDF2
   To get on or off this list see list information at
   [4]http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html

References

   1. http://www.avast.com/
   2. 
https://www.avast.com/sig-email?utm_medium=email_source=link_campaign=sig-email_content=emailclient
   3. 
https://www.avast.com/sig-email?utm_medium=email_source=link_campaign=sig-email_content=emailclient
   4. http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html

[LUTE] Re: German song questions

   Crabaten could perhaps be "kids"

   On Thu, Feb 8, 2018 at 11:17 AM, Robert Barto <[1]r.ba...@gmx.de>
   wrote:

Thank you all.
After Rainer's mail I was amazed to find BÃÂ¶hme's book on Google
 books
where I could even   download a pdf of all 900 pages.
The song is listed under "Tanz - und Scherzliedchen".
Unsere KÃÂ¶chin kann aus der Masssen kochen wol,
Auch das aller beste, was man essen sol,
Sey gsotten oder braten ist alles gut geraten
taugt wohl fÃÂ¼r die Crabaten.
She apparently cooks Gsotten (boiled meat?)   and Braten and it
 is
suitable for the   Crabaten (crabs?).
Robert
Virenfrei. [1][2]www.avast.com
--
 References
Visible links
1. [3]https://www.avast.com/sig-email?utm_medium=email_
 source=link_campaign=sig-email_content=emailclient
Hidden links:
3. [4]https://www.avast.com/sig-email?utm_medium=email_
 source=link_campaign=sig-email_content=emailclient
4. file://localhost/net/ifs-users/lute-arc/L16509-1327TMP.
 html#DAB4FAD8-2DD7-40BB-A1B8-4E2AA1F9FDF2
 To get on or off this list see list information at
 [5]http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html

   --

References

   1. mailto:r.ba...@gmx.de
   2. http://www.avast.com/
   3. 
https://www.avast.com/sig-email?utm_medium=email_source=link_campaign=sig-email_content=emailclient
   4. 
https://www.avast.com/sig-email?utm_medium=email_source=link_campaign=sig-email_content=emailclient
   5. http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html

[LUTE] Re: German song questions

 
Am Donnerstag, 08. Februar 2018 10:29 CET, Joachim Lüdtke 
 schrieb: 
 
> Dear Robert, dear Rainer,
> 
> original sources can (sometimes) be found by looking into Norbert Böker-Heil 
> et al. (eds.); "Das Tenorlied". 3 Vols Kassel etc. 1979 - 1986.

That would be the first place to look, haven't access to it right now, 
unfortunately.
 
> This is a source catalogue of songbooks both manuscript and printed from 1450 
> to 1580. Vol. 3 contains the indexes. "Vnser magt kan ausz der massen"  = 
> Songbook printed by Egenolff in Frankfurt, [1535], nr. 15 (anon.).

Do you happen to know in which Egenolff print this is suppoed to be? I'm 
looking at the Gassenhawerlin and 
Reuterliedlin from 1535 and can' t find it in neither.

> If you have access to "Denkmäler der Tonkunst in Oesterreich", you may find 
> texts to the intavolations in the critical commentary to Koczirz's edition of 
> Newsidler, Judenkunig & Co. in Vol. 37  (I don't have this at hand, so: just 
> an idea).
> 
> The Deutsche Volksliederarchiv in Freiburg may also be helpful ...

Hmm, I had mixed results last time I visited (~20 years ago). Also the changed 
their focus (now called 
"Zentrum für Populäre Kultur und Musik") and, unfortunately, their beatiful 
location. BTW, their online
database (http://www.liederlexikon.de/) doesn't list the song.

 Cheers, RalfD

 
 
 





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[LUTE] German song questions

2018-02-08 Thread Robert Barto

   Thank you all.
   After Rainer's mail I was amazed to find BÃ¶hme's book on Google books
   where I could even  download a pdf of all 900 pages.
   The song is listed under "Tanz - und Scherzliedchen".
   Unsere KÃ¶chin kann aus der Masssen kochen wol,
   Auch das aller beste, was man essen sol,
   Sey gsotten oder braten ist alles gut geraten
   taugt wohl fÃ¼r die Crabaten.
   She apparently cooks Gsotten (boiled meat?)  and Braten and it is
   suitable for the  Crabaten (crabs?).
   Robert

   Virenfrei. [1]www.avast.com

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[LUTE] Re: German song questions

 
Am Donnerstag, 08. Februar 2018 10:43 CET, Rainer  
schrieb: 
 


> 
> Strange - I find it on page 388.
> 

Jup, same over here (old photocopy I did years ago).

BTW, as impressive[1 as Böhme is - take everything from this book with a grain 
of salt, or better
quite a substantial pinch of salt ...

 Cheers, Ralf Mattes

[1] I'm always impressed by the amount of work researchers from that time where 
able to do
(Böhme, the Grimm brothers, Tobler-Lomatzsch, Arnoldt etc.)
 
 
 





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[LUTE] Re: German song questions

 
Am Donnerstag, 08. Februar 2018 10:39 CET, "b...@symbol4.de"  
schrieb: 
 
>Here
>https://books.google.de/books/about/Altdeutsches_Liederbuch.html?id=rgY
>JAQAAMAAJ_esc=y
> 

Yes, was just about to mention this as well. Please don't fall prey to Google's 
data grabing.
There's no need to "sign in"  to access the book via Google's store, there is a 
(well hidden)
download link when you click on the 'cagwheel'-Menu on the right side of the 
page.

 HTH Ralf Mattes

 





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[LUTE] Re: German song questions