[LUTE] Re: Cherbury lute book

[Jarosław Lipski]

Thanks Ron,

Yes, I agree in this matter. We can’t be sure about Burwell’s intentions.  
In general she seems to contradict herself from time to time. For example once 
she writes: „Gaultier of England is excellent, for the goodnes of his hands 
the most swift the neatest and most even that ever were.” In other place she 
comments: "English Gaultier was fit to play in a Cabarett because of his 
thundering way of playing”. One explanation could be that she had mixed 
feelings about his way of playing, the other that this must be due to the 
additional bass courses of his lute and their extra length which French masters 
rejected (since they overemphasised the bass) - Jacques played 12c lute with 
extended bass strings which might seem extraordinary for her.
I also agree that probably not all pieces composed by Gaultier in Cherbury lute 
book have to be attributed to Jacques, on the other hand just because Jacques's 
contribution in lute music at the court was huge, the chances are that 
considerable percent of them are his original compositions. And this is in line 
with what Matthew Spring writes in 
"The lute in Britain": „ It is not exaggeration to say that Jacques Gaultier 
dominated solo lute music at the Caroline court until its removal to Oxford in 
1642. He is mentioned by Herrick in several of his poems, and all subsequent 
writers on lute music in England such as Mace and the author of the Burwell 
Tutor single him out as the most influential lutenist at the English court at 
this time”. And later: „ His lute music would seem to have had considerable 
circulation in manuscript.”
Obviously I also respect your views, and probably we have to wait with final 
explanations until new convincing data is discovered.

My best regards to you and Donna 

Jaroslaw


> 
>   Thanks for your dissertation, Jaroslaw.  You provide some interesting
>   character sketches that, nevertheless, still leave the Gaultier
>   question open.
> 
>   As for the relationship of Ennemond and Jacques Gaultier, that bit was
>   mined from the quotation I provided from the unnamed tutor of Mary
>   Burwell.  Whether this anecdotal evidence is true or false, we should
>   still be more circumspect as to how we state whether the two Gaultiers
>   in question were related.  We should say that, while there is a
>   surviving contemporary anecdotal account, there exists a distinct
>   absence of evidence to indicate whether or not Ennemond and Jacques
>   Gaultier were kinsmen.  Even so, I suspect Mary Burwell's tutor was
>   speaking (writing) metaphorically, as was the custom.
> 
>   RA
> __
> 
>   From: lute-...@cs.dartmouth.edu <lute-...@cs.dartmouth.edu> on behalf
>   of Jarosław Lipski <jaroslawlip...@wp.pl>
>   Sent: Wednesday, February 7, 2018 8:56 PM
>   To: lute@cs.dartmouth.edu
>   Subject: [LUTE] Re: Cherbury lute book
> 
>   Jean-Marie,
>   This is a vast subject for a long debate. To judge a man's behaviour
>   from 17th century and predict probability of its consequences is not a
>   trivial matter. As historian Miles Fairborn says that: „impossible,
>   strange and bizarre are less so when placed in their proper context.
>   This is one of the goals of the social historian - to endeavour to see
>   the past from the native's point of view."
>   In other words if we want to asses if certain facts which may seem
>   shocking to people from 21st century would be also shocking 4 centuries
>   ago, we would have to try to understand the reality that  people lived
>   in then.
>   Firstly, most man normally wore various types of weapon. One of the
>   most commonly used swords in 17c was the rapier which had both military
>   and civilian applications. In Europe rapier was a sword that civilians
>   used to bring with them as regular attire. Gentleman wore rapiers to
>   show signs of rank. The more embellished the sword was, the richer and
>   more noble you were. It was also used for duelling. By the end of the
>   17th century it was turned into a small sword. This change began around
>   1630's, and small swords were considered fashionable to wear. Swords
>   were elegant instruments of death that were a symbol of power to anyone
>   who owned one. The gentleman that did have swords as part of their
>   daily attire, probably wanted to benefit from the elegance and power
>   that was present in the sword. Many civilians used daggers as a symbol
>   of prestige and honour. Stilettos (Italian dagger) were developed for
>   self-protection.  Some of them had blades that divide into 3 sections
>   at pus!
>h of a button. They were known as duelling daggers and were invented
>   in France. Also it wasn't uncommon for civilians to also own pistols,
&g

[LUTE] Re: Cherbury lute book

[Jean-Marie Poirier]

Au moins cette intéressante discussion aura permis à Göran de montrer sa 
maîtrise de la langue française ;-) !
Bien Amicalement,
Jean-Marie

> Le 7 févr. 2018 à 23:36, G. C.  a écrit :
> 
>   Right, so all we other lutenetters interested in this should just keep
>   hanging. Tres bien. That's the way! Ce est le route?
>   G.
>   On Wed, Feb 7, 2018 at 11:20 PM, Jean-Marie Poirier
>   <[1]jmpoiri...@wanadoo.fr> wrote:
>   Jaroslaw
>   I do agree with you and the study of past mentalities and culture has
>   been my daily bread for the last 35 years or so. I know exactly what
>   you are talking about..
>   Let's leave it here as you suggested in your email and thank you for
>   your very well informed contribution.
>   All the best,
>   Jean-Marie
> 
>   --
> 
> References
> 
>   1. mailto:jmpoiri...@wanadoo.fr
> 
> 
> To get on or off this list see list information at
> http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html

[LUTE] Re: Cherbury lute book

[G. C.]

   Right, so all we other lutenetters interested in this should just keep
   hanging. Tres bien. That's the way! Ce est le route?
   G.
   On Wed, Feb 7, 2018 at 11:20 PM, Jean-Marie Poirier
   <[1]jmpoiri...@wanadoo.fr> wrote:
   Jaroslaw
   I do agree with you and the study of past mentalities and culture has
   been my daily bread for the last 35 years or so. I know exactly what
   you are talking about..
   Let's leave it here as you suggested in your email and thank you for
   your very well informed contribution.
   All the best,
   Jean-Marie

   --

References

   1. mailto:jmpoiri...@wanadoo.fr


To get on or off this list see list information at
http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html

[LUTE] Re: Cherbury lute book

[Jean-Marie Poirier]

Jaroslaw 
I do agree with you and the study of past mentalities and culture has been my 
daily bread for the last 35 years or so. I know exactly what you are talking 
about..
Let’s leave it here as you suggested in your email and thank you for your very 
well informed contribution.
All the best,
Jean-Marie

> Le 7 févr. 2018 à 21:56, Jarosław Lipski  a écrit :
> 
> Jean-Marie,
> 
> This is a vast subject for a long debate. To judge a man’s behaviour from 
> 17th century and predict probability of its consequences is not a trivial 
> matter. As historian Miles Fairborn says that: „impossible, strange and 
> bizarre are less so when placed in their proper context. This is one of the 
> goals of the social historian - to endeavour to see the past from the 
> native’s point of view.”
> In other words if we want to asses if certain facts which may seem shocking 
> to people from 21st century would be also shocking 4 centuries ago, we would 
> have to try to understand the reality that  people lived in then. 
> Firstly, most man normally wore various types of weapon. One of the most 
> commonly used swords in 17c was the rapier which had both military and 
> civilian applications. In Europe rapier was a sword that civilians used to 
> bring with them as regular attire. Gentleman wore rapiers to show signs of 
> rank. The more embellished the sword was, the richer and more noble you were. 
> It was also used for duelling. By the end of the 17th century it was turned 
> into a small sword. This change began around 1630’s, and small swords were 
> considered fashionable to wear. Swords were elegant instruments of death that 
> were a symbol of power to anyone who owned one. The gentleman that did have 
> swords as part of their daily attire, probably wanted to benefit from the 
> elegance and power that was present in the sword. Many civilians used daggers 
> as a symbol of prestige and honour. Stilettos (Italian dagger) were developed 
> for self-protection.  Some of them had blades that divide into 3 sections at 
> p!
 us!
> h of a button. They were known as duelling daggers and were invented in 
> France. Also it wasn’t uncommon for civilians to also own pistols, which were 
> used for various reasons. Apart from this, one could encounter armed soldiers 
> and guards either on streets or in taverns. 
> Another important factor were drinking habits in 17th century. We don’t 
> realise that most of the rivers resembled sewage. There was no filters, 
> ecology etc. So, all impurities went directly to the water. In consequence 
> people drank only spring water, rainwater, or alcohol. As spring and 
> rainwater was rather difficult to get, people normally drank big amounts of 
> alcohol. Mostly some kind of an ale, beer or wine. Stronger alcohols were 
> used for special occasions. I didn’t realise how much they drank until I saw 
> Bach’s receipt from an Inn were he stayed overnight. 
> Another important factor is their acquaintance with death. Public executions 
> were very much a spectator sport for all classes of society. Execution always 
> guaranteed to draw huge crowds.
> The legal system that we take for granted nowadays, did not exist yet. 
> Usually your betters were your law.
> So, now imagine that you enter an Inn were almost every man is armed, drunk 
> to some degree, and law doesn’t protect you. If one of them have high level 
> of testosterone, and big ego, a problem is imminent. There is plenty of 
> reports from these times on such occasions. Some more drastic, some less. One 
> of them happened in Erfurt were Bach wanted to be employed.
> In Hartung, Hauser-Chronik der Stadt Erfurt we read:
> „In 27 February 1635, it had happened that a citizen named Hans Rothlander, 
> had taken a soldier into his house. He persuaded the town musicians, to play 
> to him to amuse him, because the master was his godfather. When they were all 
> tolerably drunk the soldier, who was a cornet from Jena, stretched himself on 
> the bench and fell asleep. Rothlander’s wife roused him, intending to dance 
> with him. He started from his sleep, crying out - What, is the enemy upon 
> us?. Then he snatched up the brass candlestick, and gave the man nearest to 
> him 3 wounds in the head and a gash in the cheek, thus extinguishing the 
> light. Then he seized his sword, and stabbing backwards, pierced another 
> through and through; he clutched a musician from Schmalkalden, who was a 
> superior player, and stuck him through the body so that he died twelve hours 
> after, and was buried in the churchyard of the Kaufmanns-Kirche.” Actually 
> this sad incident was fortunate for Bach as the master of the guild perishe!
 d !
> in this scene of butchery, and Bach took his place.
> This kind of things we could call accidents, but one has to remember that 
> duelling was legitimate since around year 501, when King of Burgundy codified 
> the duel as a judicial combat (so called Gombette law). It was seen as 

[LUTE] Re: Cherbury lute book

[G. C.]

   BTW. I never wrote that Jacques Gaultier was related to Enemond, so
   don't know were is this supposition fromâ¦
   That is from:
   On Tue, Feb 6, 2018 at 5:50 AM, Ron Andrico <[1]praelu...@hotmail.com>
   wrote:
 Speaking of Thurston Dart, I always return to his article, "Miss Mary
  Burwell's Instruction Book for the Lute" in The Galpin Society
   Journal,
  Vol. 11 (May, 1958), pp. 3-62.
"From this famous Gaultier are issued three other Gaultiers, his sons
  and his imitators:   [Jacques] Gaultier of England, Gaultier of
   Paris,
  and Gaultier of Rome. All three excellent men..."
  p. 13
   G.
   On Wed, Feb 7, 2018 at 9:56 PM, JarosÅaw Lipski
   <[2]jaroslawlip...@wp.pl> wrote:

 Jean-Marie,
 This is a vast subject for a long debate. To judge a man's behaviour
 from 17th century and predict probability of its consequences is not
 a trivial matter. As historian Miles Fairborn says that:
 âimpossible, strange and bizarre are less so when placed in their
 proper context. This is one of the goals of the social historian -
 to endeavour to see the past from the native's point of view."
 In other words if we want to asses if certain facts which may seem
 shocking to people from 21st century would be also shocking 4
 centuries ago, we would have to try to understand the reality that
 people lived in then.
 Firstly, most man normally wore various types of weapon. One of the
 most commonly used swords in 17c was the rapier which had both
 military and civilian applications. In Europe rapier was a sword
 that civilians used to bring with them as regular attire. Gentleman
 wore rapiers to show signs of rank. The more embellished the sword
 was, the richer and more noble you were. It was also used for
 duelling. By the end of the 17th century it was turned into a small
 sword. This change began around 1630's, and small swords were
 considered fashionable to wear. Swords were elegant instruments of
 death that were a symbol of power to anyone who owned one. The
 gentleman that did have swords as part of their daily attire,
 probably wanted to benefit from the elegance and power that was
 present in the sword. Many civilians used daggers as a symbol of
 prestige and honour. Stilettos (Italian dagger) were developed for
 self-protection.   Some of them had blades that divide into 3
 sections at pus!
  h of a button. They were known as duelling daggers and were
 invented in France. Also it wasn't uncommon for civilians to also
 own pistols, which were used for various reasons. Apart from this,
 one could encounter armed soldiers and guards either on streets or
 in taverns.
 Another important factor were drinking habits in 17th century. We
 don't realise that most of the rivers resembled sewage. There was no
 filters, ecology etc. So, all impurities went directly to the water.
 In consequence people drank only spring water, rainwater, or
 alcohol. As spring and rainwater was rather difficult to get, people
 normally drank big amounts of alcohol. Mostly some kind of an ale,
 beer or wine. Stronger alcohols were used for special occasions. I
 didn't realise how much they drank until I saw Bach's receipt from
 an Inn were he stayed overnight.
 Another important factor is their acquaintance with death. Public
 executions were very much a spectator sport for all classes of
 society. Execution always guaranteed to draw huge crowds.
 The legal system that we take for granted nowadays, did not exist
 yet. Usually your betters were your law.
 So, now imagine that you enter an Inn were almost every man is
 armed, drunk to some degree, and law doesn't protect you. If one of
 them have high level of testosterone, and big ego, a problem is
 imminent. There is plenty of reports from these times on such
 occasions. Some more drastic, some less. One of them happened in
 Erfurt were Bach wanted to be employed.
 In Hartung, Hauser-Chronik der Stadt Erfurt we read:
 âIn 27 February 1635, it had happened that a citizen named Hans
 Rothlander, had taken a soldier into his house. He persuaded the
 town musicians, to play to him to amuse him, because the master was
 his godfather. When they were all tolerably drunk the soldier, who
 was a cornet from Jena, stretched himself on the bench and fell
 asleep. Rothlander's wife roused him, intending to dance with him.
 He started from his sleep, crying out - What, is the enemy upon us?.
 Then he snatched up the brass candlestick, and gave the man nearest
 to him 3 wounds in the head and a gash in the cheek, thus
 extinguishing the light. Then he seized his sword, and stabbing
 backwards, pierced another through and through; he clutched a
 musician from Schmalkalden, who was a superior player, and stuck 

[LUTE] Re: Cherbury lute book

[Jarosław Lipski]

Jean-Marie,

This is a vast subject for a long debate. To judge a man’s behaviour from 17th 
century and predict probability of its consequences is not a trivial matter. As 
historian Miles Fairborn says that: „impossible, strange and bizarre are less 
so when placed in their proper context. This is one of the goals of the social 
historian - to endeavour to see the past from the native’s point of view.”
In other words if we want to asses if certain facts which may seem shocking to 
people from 21st century would be also shocking 4 centuries ago, we would have 
to try to understand the reality that  people lived in then. 
Firstly, most man normally wore various types of weapon. One of the most 
commonly used swords in 17c was the rapier which had both military and civilian 
applications. In Europe rapier was a sword that civilians used to bring with 
them as regular attire. Gentleman wore rapiers to show signs of rank. The more 
embellished the sword was, the richer and more noble you were. It was also used 
for duelling. By the end of the 17th century it was turned into a small sword. 
This change began around 1630’s, and small swords were considered fashionable 
to wear. Swords were elegant instruments of death that were a symbol of power 
to anyone who owned one. The gentleman that did have swords as part of their 
daily attire, probably wanted to benefit from the elegance and power that was 
present in the sword. Many civilians used daggers as a symbol of prestige and 
honour. Stilettos (Italian dagger) were developed for self-protection.  Some of 
them had blades that divide into 3 sections at pus!
 h of a button. They were known as duelling daggers and were invented in 
France. Also it wasn’t uncommon for civilians to also own pistols, which were 
used for various reasons. Apart from this, one could encounter armed soldiers 
and guards either on streets or in taverns. 
Another important factor were drinking habits in 17th century. We don’t realise 
that most of the rivers resembled sewage. There was no filters, ecology etc. 
So, all impurities went directly to the water. In consequence people drank only 
spring water, rainwater, or alcohol. As spring and rainwater was rather 
difficult to get, people normally drank big amounts of alcohol. Mostly some 
kind of an ale, beer or wine. Stronger alcohols were used for special 
occasions. I didn’t realise how much they drank until I saw Bach’s receipt from 
an Inn were he stayed overnight. 
Another important factor is their acquaintance with death. Public executions 
were very much a spectator sport for all classes of society. Execution always 
guaranteed to draw huge crowds.
The legal system that we take for granted nowadays, did not exist yet. Usually 
your betters were your law.
So, now imagine that you enter an Inn were almost every man is armed, drunk to 
some degree, and law doesn’t protect you. If one of them have high level of 
testosterone, and big ego, a problem is imminent. There is plenty of reports 
from these times on such occasions. Some more drastic, some less. One of them 
happened in Erfurt were Bach wanted to be employed.
In Hartung, Hauser-Chronik der Stadt Erfurt we read:
„In 27 February 1635, it had happened that a citizen named Hans Rothlander, had 
taken a soldier into his house. He persuaded the town musicians, to play to him 
to amuse him, because the master was his godfather. When they were all 
tolerably drunk the soldier, who was a cornet from Jena, stretched himself on 
the bench and fell asleep. Rothlander’s wife roused him, intending to dance 
with him. He started from his sleep, crying out - What, is the enemy upon us?. 
Then he snatched up the brass candlestick, and gave the man nearest to him 3 
wounds in the head and a gash in the cheek, thus extinguishing the light. Then 
he seized his sword, and stabbing backwards, pierced another through and 
through; he clutched a musician from Schmalkalden, who was a superior player, 
and stuck him through the body so that he died twelve hours after, and was 
buried in the churchyard of the Kaufmanns-Kirche.” Actually this sad incident 
was fortunate for Bach as the master of the guild perished !
 in this scene of butchery, and Bach took his place.
This kind of things we could call accidents, but one has to remember that 
duelling was legitimate since around year 501, when King of Burgundy codified 
the duel as a judicial combat (so called Gombette law). It was seen as a tool 
to tame criminality. Duels have a long tradition especially in France, so I’ll 
stop here, but one thing is relevant to Gaultier’s story. Henri IV’s edicts of 
1602 and of Fontainebleau registered at parliament on 26th June 1609 making 
duelists guilty of the crime of lèse majesté (offence against the crown). Louis 
XIII went on this direction and tried to stop duelling altogether. The 
declarations of Louis XIII on 1 July 1611, 18 January and 4 March 1612, 1 
October 1614, 14 July 1617 and 26 June 1624, 

[LUTE] Re: Cherbury lute book

[Jean-Marie Poirier]

Just a reminder : 
Jacques Gaultier fled to England c. 1617 because he had murdered a noble man on 
the Continent.
As early as 1618 he was imprisoned in the Tower of London for no clear reason...
He got away with it and managed to get appointed as one of Henriette-Marie's 
musicians in 1625 and thrown into the Tower again in 1627,
for more serious reasons this time. Here is what Alvise Contatini, the Venitian 
Ambassador in London, reposrts to the Doge and the Senate :

"A certain Frenchman, a lute player, Gotiers by name, who was in the Queen's 
service, has been put in the Tower. It seems he proposed to 
murder the duke [of Buckingham], as they say they found a pistol on him. 
Really, however, he traduced the king himself and the duke and 
boasted that by the dulcet tones of the lute he could make his way even into 
the royal bed and he had been urged to do so in a manner that 
became well-nigh nauseous. This fellow will not escape lightly, as the king 
himself has examined him, assisted solely by the duke, extreme 
vigour and secrecy being observed owing to the nature of the charges."

He, again, managed to got way with it !

Here is the conclusion to Ian Spink's article "Another Gaultier Affair", Music 
and Letters, vol. 45, IV, (Oct., 1964) p. 347 :

"From the accounts of the two ambassadors it seems clear that Gaultier was 
unpopular with everyone, and some tasteless boast or indiscreet 
behaviour may have come to the ear of someone in authority-or been conveyed 
there by an ill-wisher-and thence to the king. There were always 
those at court eager to discredit the queen's French servants, given the 
slightest opportunity, and opportunities were certainly not lacking, even 
genuine ones. In this case Charles and Buckingham acted at once to preserve the 
queen's honour, and their investigations probably uncovered some 
relatively harmless but nevertheless unsavoury scandal. Gaultier himself seems 
to have emerged with his professional reputation at least unimpaired."

I can hardly imagine a person like Herbert of Cherbury, a personal friend of 
Buckingham, getting along with this "boisterous" character...

And, by the way, one of the first musicologists to be interested in Jacques 
Gaultier was Lionel de La Laurencie, in his article "Le Luthiste Jacques 
Gaultier", 
La revue musicale, n°3 (1924) pp. 33-39, more than thirty years before Mr 
Dart...

And, yes, Jacques was no relation of Ennemond "de Lyon", Pierre "de Rome" or 
Denis "de Paris" - Ennemond's "cousin" - who was anyway too young 
to be concerned by Cherbury's manuscript...

Best,

Jean-Marie
PS : Thank you Jaroslaw for intereting remarks about Cherbury but no clear 
evidence of their possible relationship, not clearer anywan than with Ennemond
in Paris or in England, where old Gaultier was a star at court after his visit 
which must have been earliuer than the usually announced 1630, as he was 
a protégé of Buckingham who paid him lavishly to encourage him to stay longer 
at the court, but was assasinated in 1628 ! So he must have visited several
times, including 1630 for the "birth of the Prince of Wales" on behalf of Marie 
de Medicis, his patroness and the mother of Henriette-Marie...

--
 
>   NB: Jacques Gaultier was not a relative of Ennemond or Denis.
>   For pieces in Cherbury also listen to Jacob Lindberg's "Jacobean Lute
>   Music" BIS-2055 (2013)
>   G.
>
>   --
>
>
>To get on or off this list see list information at
>http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html

[LUTE] Re: Cherbury lute book

[G. C.]

   NB: Jacques Gaultier was not a relative of Ennemond or Denis.
   For pieces in Cherbury also listen to Jacob Lindberg's "Jacobean Lute
   Music" BIS-2055 (2013)
   G.

   --


To get on or off this list see list information at
http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html

[LUTE] Re: Cherbury lute book

[Jarosław Lipski]

in
>   Britain.  But there is also a passage that points out the apparent
>   confusion of which Gaultier was which:
> 
>   "In August 1630, an unnamed lutenist was provided with a letter of
>   recommendation from the poet and diplomat Jacob van der Burgh, by way
>   of an introduction to Huygens...If this letter of introduction was
>   intended for Jacques Gaultier it seems odd that Van der Burgh does not
>   appear to be aware that Gaultier and Huygens were acquainted...An
>   alternative explanation is that this letter of introduction was for
>   Ennemond Gaultier who, according to the writer of the Burwell lute
>   tutor, visited England around this time.  The Burwell tutor relates
>   that Ennemond was sent to represent Marie de Medici at the birth of her
>   grandson Charles II on 28 May 1630...And could the reference [in the
>   letter] to 'lute playing  brothers' allude to other lutenists with the
>   name Gaultier rather than simply other professional players?"
>   - Matthew Spring, p. 136-137
> 
>   RA
> __
> 
>   From: lute-...@cs.dartmouth.edu <lute-...@cs.dartmouth.edu> on behalf
>   of G. C. <kalei...@gmail.com>
>   Sent: Sunday, February 4, 2018 12:59 PM
>   To: Lutelist
>   Subject: [LUTE] Re: Cherbury lute book
> 
>  @ Google books, some more info on Jacques Gaultier from the 2013
>  Utrecht lute symposium. Article by Matthew Spring starts on page
>   120.
>  Unfortunately, the last few pages of the article are not displayed.
> 
>   [1]https://books.google.no/books?id=Aev6DAAAQBAJ=PA125=PA125=
> 
>   herbert+cherbury+and+ennemond+gaultier=bl=KN8uwmojdg=R-S
> 
>   jesWCKsqiVG-hz72_Klu7G_M=en=X=0ahUKEwiJ-Py3t4rZAhVC6lMKHY-nDY
>  UQ6AEIPzAH#v=onepage=true
>  G.
>  --
>   References
>  1.
>   [1]https://books.google.no/books?id=Aev6DAAAQBAJ=PA125=PA125=
>   herbert+cherbury+and+ennemond+gaultier=bl=KN8uwmojdg=R-S
>   jesWCKsqiVG-hz72_Klu7G_M=en=X=0ahUKEwiJ-Py3t4rZAhVC6lMKHY-nDY
>   UQ6AEIPzAH#v=onepage=true
>   To get on or off this list see list information at
>   [2]http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html
> 
>   --
> 
> References
> 
>   1. 
> https://books.google.no/books?id=Aev6DAAAQBAJ=PA125=PA125=herbert+cherbury+and+ennemond+gaultier=bl=KN8uwmojdg=R-SjesWCKsqiVG-hz72_Klu7G_M=en=X=0ahUKEwiJ-Py3t4rZAhVC6lMKHY-nDYUQ6AEIPzAH#v=onepage=true
>   2. http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html
> 

[LUTE] Re: Cherbury lute book - Gautier Son adieu

[Stephan Olbertz]

Dear Markus,

your web catalogue is indeed a great resource, so valuable to many, so thank
you very much again. I must say, that I recently had some trouble to find
the few compositins ascribed to Sigismund Weiss, as his name was abbreviated
in the catalogue. Maybe one could fix that? Also, concerning another search,
I noticed some false keys here and there, but was to busy (or lazy) to write
them down for you. I try harder next time!
regards
Stephan

-Ursprüngliche Nachricht-
Von: lute-...@cs.dartmouth.edu [mailto:lute-...@cs.dartmouth.edu] Im Auftrag
von Markus Lutz
Gesendet: Freitag, 2. Februar 2018 19:51
An: lute@cs.dartmouth.edu
Betreff: [LUTE] Re: Cherbury lute book - Gautier Son adieu

Am 02.02.2018 um 19:04 schrieb Alain Veylit:
> I could not find the references to Cherbury on Peter Stueur's site
> alas... (I wonder if the Vorhandene Manuskripte table could be given
> its own page with more descriptive titles associated with the sources
> numbers...)
> Alain
> 

Hi Alain,
yes it's true, the table "Available Manuscripts" gets more and more
complicated, as now there are more than 400 manuscripts.
But I fear, an own page for that still would be very/too? complicated.

As soon as I have time for it, I will try to put the manuscripts in a
sidebar with only showing the manuscripts of one country (or first
letter)  only.
And it also would be a good thing to have the manuscript table, that is
intern, searchable.
But to add this, I also will need some time.

The easiest way to find pieces or manuscripts often is to use the filtering
feature:

Firstly got to "Manuscripts", the click on "Show Filters"
There you can search for
- the title you are looking for e.g. "Son Adieu" or "Son Ad"
- the manuscript that you are looking for via the beginning of the signature
e.g. "GB-Cf"
- or for a certain Composer etc.

Normally you can use the beginning of the phrase, or even a part within a
word, so f.i. "dieu" also will show the searched piece on place 9 (17
entries).
The filters normally are case-sensitive!

The manuscripts always use the RISM signatures, that have the country first
(in this case GB), then a hyphen, and after it the city (C for
Cambridge) and then the short signature for the museum: Fitzwilliam Museum =
fm; so that it is complete: GB-Cfm After that Peter and me always use a
shortened number of the complete signature. The complete signature or title
will be given at the beginning of a manuscript or print.

The prints have normally the composer, often shortened, and a shortened
title of it; or a year: e.g. Dowland-Var for Robert Dowland: Varietie of
Lute Lessons

I think it is necessary to play around with the site some time to
understand, how everything works!

But after some exercise nearly everything can be found quite swiftly!
Even sometimes new concordances can be found by filtering the incipits!

. and if someone finds the site too complicated, he is invited to write to
me, and I will see, if I can help or if it is possible to make it easier (if
I have the time to do)!

Best regards
Markus



> On 02/02/2018 02:55 AM, Jean-Marie Poirier wrote:
> 
> We do learn at all ages indeed ;-)!
> Au passage, thank you Alain for all your hard work so useful to all of us
!
> Jen-Marie
> 
> 
> Le 2 févr. 2018 à 11:10, G. C. [2]<kalei...@gmail.com> a écrit :
> 
>I was not aware of lord Herbert's Jacques Gaultier extradition letter
>(found on Alain's site). The fact that some of the pieces have
>concordances in both Besard (1603) and Varietie (1610), also exclude
>Jacques.
>By the way, Alain, you should look at the concordances by Peter Steur
>to update those on the Fandango Cherbury page, where the ms. is not too
>unreadable. Very nice work, thanks Alain!
>G.
>On Fri, Feb 2, 2018 at 3:25 AM, Alain Veylit
>[3]<[1]al...@musickshandmade.com> wrote:
>Just a couple of points of recent history: back some 10 or 15 years
>ago, Joel Dugot from the French lute society
> 
>--
> 
> References
> 
>1. [4]mailto:al...@musickshandmade.com
> 
> 
> To get on or off this list see list information at 
> [5]http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html
> 
> 
> 
> 
> --
> 
> References
> 
> 1. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=jY4fsnOIpCE
> 2. mailto:kalei...@gmail.com
> 3. mailto:[1]al...@musickshandmade.com
> 4. mailto:al...@musickshandmade.com
> 5. http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html
> 


-- 

Markus Lutz
Schulstraße 11

88422 Bad Buchau

Tel  0 75 82 / 92 62 89
Fax  0 75 82 / 92 62 90
Mail mar...@gmlutz.de

[LUTE] Re: Cherbury lute book

[G. C.]

   @ Google books, some more info on Jacques Gaultier from the 2013
   Utrecht lute symposium. Article by Matthew Spring starts on page 120.
   Unfortunately, the last few pages of the article are not displayed.
   [1]https://books.google.no/books?id=Aev6DAAAQBAJ=PA125=PA125=
   herbert+cherbury+and+ennemond+gaultier=bl=KN8uwmojdg=R-S
   jesWCKsqiVG-hz72_Klu7G_M=en=X=0ahUKEwiJ-Py3t4rZAhVC6lMKHY-nDY
   UQ6AEIPzAH#v=onepage=true
   G.

   --

References

   1. 
https://books.google.no/books?id=Aev6DAAAQBAJ=PA125=PA125=herbert+cherbury+and+ennemond+gaultier=bl=KN8uwmojdg=R-SjesWCKsqiVG-hz72_Klu7G_M=en=X=0ahUKEwiJ-Py3t4rZAhVC6lMKHY-nDYUQ6AEIPzAH#v=onepage=true


To get on or off this list see list information at
http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html

[LUTE] Re: Cherbury lute book - Gautier Son adieu

[Jean-Marie Poirier]

They Montmorency family
JM

> Le 3 févr. 2018 à 20:19, G. C.  a écrit :
> 
>   I forgot, there is a lengthy passage in Mathew Spring's book about this
>   matter. And also interesting is, that there is a connection with lord
>   Herbert and Ennemond with the Mont...(?) family.
>   G.
>   [1]https://www.antiquestradegazette.com/news/2016/jacobean-miniature-
>   acquired-by-national-trust-for-powis-castle/
>   Note the shield, it spells: Magica Sympathiae. He also published
>   several works. And was a "Deist". Most interesting lute associated
>   historical person.
> 
>   --
> 
> References
> 
>   1. 
> https://www.antiquestradegazette.com/news/2016/jacobean-miniature-acquired-by-national-trust-for-powis-castle/
> 
> 
> To get on or off this list see list information at
> http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html

[LUTE] Re: Cherbury lute book

[Alain Veylit]

Thank you Matteo for spotting those omissions. I added the missing 
prelude ( f.37v/2. ) and  Volt by Jacob (f86v/2.) as an erratum on the 
project page. I was unable to read the title of #242 from the facsimile 
I had.


It seems to me that the other piece you mention "Pavan of the 
Composition/ of mee Edward Lord Herbert/ 1627 3to Martii;" is found on 
p.260 of the PDF transcription.


Alain


On 02/03/2018 08:28 AM, Matteo Turri wrote:

Just found that the thesis of Julia Craig-McFeely also has the 3
additional pieces as in the "Catalogue" below - see
[1]http://www.ramesescats.co.uk/thesis/App1c.pdf
Matteo
-- Forwarded message --
From: Matteo Turri <[2]matteo.o.tu...@gmail.com>
Date: 3 February 2018 at 17:19
    Subject: Re: [LUTE] Re: Cherbury lute book
To: "G. C." <[3]kalei...@gmail.com>
Cc: lutelist Net <
ââ
[4]lute@cs.dartmouth.edu>
Interestingly, this references at [5]https://w1.bnu.fr/smt/sommaire.htm
lists 245 pieces:

ââ
CATALOGUE DES SOURCES MANUSCRITES EN TABLATURE
Luth et théorbe
c.1500-c.1800
Catalogue descriptif / A Descriptive Inventory

 Publié par / Published by
CHRISTIAN MEYER
   avec la collaboration de

 Tim Crawford, François-Pierre Goy, Peter Király, Monique Rollin


[6]SOURCES MANUSCRITES EN TABLATURE
MANUSCRIPT SOURCES IN TABLATURE

[7]Vol. IV. Grande-Bretagne (en préparation)
  __

[8]CAMBRIDGE, Fitzwilliam Museum (GB-Cfm)Ms 689
Therein
no. 91 is a "Prelude" at the end of the second "Volte/ Pietreson", not
in the
â
Veylit's edition (firs shift in numbering);
no. 228   "-- Pavan of the Composition/ of mee Edward Lord Herbert/
1627 3to Martii; die scilicet/ natalicio
cf. n ° 219" - is omitted in the
â
Veylit's edition (second shift);
nos. 235-237 are 3 "Volte/ Jacob", wherein Veylit's edition has only 2
(third shift);
no. 241-243 are Prelude, Fantasia, Prelude/Hely, wherein in Veylit's
edition the corresponding nos. 238-240 are three Preludes.
Yes, I know Dart lists 242 pieces.
Looking forward to the edition of the Lute Society ...
M.

Matteo
On 3 February 2018 at 14:51, G. C. <[9]kalei...@gmail.com> wrote:

 Track list from O'Dette's CD / Piece number

ââ

ââ

  Veylit's edition)
  1.112
  2.119
  3.127
  4.130
  5.121
  6.105
  7.199
  8.146
  9.143
 10. 144
 11. 196
 12. 217
 13. 209
 14. 225
 15. 227
 16.  35
 17.  39
 18.  70 (different)
 19.  87
 20. 230
 21. 236
 22. 237
 23.  42
 24.  59
 25.  55
 26.  51
 27.  50
 28. 241
 Hey Dude, far out man! That Cato stuff really blows my mind. Prel
  of
 prels, like. Yeah, groovy man! Peace and Love.
 G.
 --
  To get on or off this list see list information at
  [10]http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html

--

References

Visible links
1. http://www.ramesescats.co.uk/thesis/App1c.pdf
2. mailto:matteo.o.tu...@gmail.com
3. mailto:kalei...@gmail.com
4. mailto:lute@cs.dartmouth.edu
5. https://w1.bnu.fr/smt/sommaire.htm
6. https://w1.bnu.fr/smt/sommaire.htm
7. https://w1.bnu.fr/smt/smt4.htm
8. https://w1.bnu.fr/smt/0181.htm
9. mailto:kalei...@gmail.com
   10. http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html

Hidden links:
   12. https://w1.bnu.fr/smt/sommaire.htm
   13. https://w1.bnu.fr/smt/sommaire.htm
   14. https://w1.bnu.fr/smt/sommaire.htm
   15. https://w1.bnu.fr/smt/sommaire.htm

[LUTE] Re: Cherbury lute book - Gautier Son adieu

[G. C.]

   I forgot, there is a lengthy passage in Mathew Spring's book about this
   matter. And also interesting is, that there is a connection with lord
   Herbert and Ennemond with the Mont...(?) family.
   G.
   [1]https://www.antiquestradegazette.com/news/2016/jacobean-miniature-
   acquired-by-national-trust-for-powis-castle/
   Note the shield, it spells: Magica Sympathiae. He also published
   several works. And was a "Deist". Most interesting lute associated
   historical person.

   --

References

   1. 
https://www.antiquestradegazette.com/news/2016/jacobean-miniature-acquired-by-national-trust-for-powis-castle/


To get on or off this list see list information at
http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html

[LUTE] Re: Cherbury lute book - Gautier Son adieu

[Arthur Ness]

   A short after-thought.  Isn't the paper in the Cherbury ms. from
   France?  But he often fought as a merceary.
   Arthur Ness
   arthurjn...@verizon.net
   -Original Message-
   From: JarosÅaw Lipski <jaroslawlip...@wp.pl>
   To: lute <lute@cs.dartmouth.edu>
   Sent: Sat, Feb 3, 2018 12:33 pm
   Subject: [LUTE] Re: Cherbury lute book - Gautier Son adieu
   > You are quoting what Thurston Dart wrote in 1957. But Jean-Marie has
   > convincingly mentioned the letter which proved that lord Herbert was
   > involved in trying to get Jacques extradited back to France and
   > therefore "would not likely collect music by him". Of course, this is
   a
   > bit flimsy, as you could probably always distinguish between music
   and
   > the person in question.
   Exactly, one has to distinguish between music and the person in
   question. I doubt very much if this affair would discourage Herbert to
   collect Jaques music if he thought about it highly.
   > Some of those Gaultier pieces in Cherbury were
   > however published both in Besard and in Varietie, 1603 and 1610
   > respectively, and Jacques would have been only 3 and 10 years at that
   > time, so not likely by him. There is of course a possibility that
   some
   > of the pieces were by Ennemond and some by Jacques. Further research
   > may prove this.
   As I wrote in my post Edward Herbert was collecting music during his
   life initially probably in form of sheet music which he copied later
   into his lute book, so exact attribution is very difficult. I never
   wrote that all the pieces titled Gaultier are identified. However, at
   least some of them seem to be composed by Jacques Gaultier, and this is
   not only mine and Thurston Dart's opinion.
   > As to the amateur status of lord Herbert, you only have to listen to
   > O'Dette's CD to completely loose this presumption. Many of the pieces
   > in the manuscript, are magnificent and highly professional and
   require
   > a high degree of dexterity to perform.
   I know Paul's CD, but amateur doesn't mean ignorant, or worthless.
   Writing âamateur" I meant that he played and collected music not for
   money, but rather for his personal entertainment. And this is what he
   wrote about himself:
   âI attained also to sing my part at first sight in music, and to play
   on the lute with very little or almost no teachingâ¦my learning of
   music was for this end that I might entertain myself at homeâ¦"
   Best
   JL
   > Best
   > G.
   >
   > On Sat, Feb 3, 2018 at 3:38 PM, JarosÃaw Lipski
   > <[1][1]jaroslawlip...@wp.pl> wrote:
   >
   > Most probably Gauthier refers to Jacques Gaultier d'Angleterre.
   > After killing his opponent in a duel Gaultier came to England in
   > 1617. He was a member of King's Musick beginning with 1619 until
   > 1648. Although Lord Herbert traveled both to France and Rome he
   > returned to London in 1617, so he had a good opportunity to meet
   > Jacques Gaultier who played there several times. In 1619 Edward
   > Herbert went back to Paris as an ambassador to the French court,
   > but had to leave after he opposed marriage between Prince Charles
   > and Henrietta Maria. King James in return banished him to Ireland
   > were Herbert spent almost 9 years, but from 1628 he was allowed to
   > return to Montgomery castle. The type of bindings in olive morocco
   > was already used in France by George Drobet on a book for Marie de
   > Medicis in 1611, so there are big chances that his lute book was
   > bound most probably in Paris, or it was bought by him ready made
   > from a bookseller on one of his trips to Paris (maybe from
   > Ballards?).
   > On the other hand Lord Cherbury was an amateur lute player and he
   > most probably used to copy pieces to his lute book from some loose
   > sheets of paper dated probably much earlier, and which he acquired
   > from renown lute players that he met. This is why we can't be sure
   > about exact dates and attribution of particular pieces, but it seems
   > very likely that he met Jacques Gaultier on several occasions and he
   > is the most likely composer of the compositions in question.
   > Best
   > JL
   >> WiadomoÃÃ napisana przez Alain Veylit
   > <[2][2]al...@musickshandmade.com> w dniu 02.02.2018, o godz. 19:04:
   >>
   >>
   >> There are two possible connections between Cherbury and
   > Ennemond
   >> Gautier: both were connected to the Montmorency household, and
   > Cherbury
   >> was acting as English ambassador at court when Ennemond moved
   > there ca.
   >> 1620. Yet Ennemond was apparently stingy when it came to
   > sharing his
   >> music and the music in the Cherb MS seems more representative
   > of his
   >>

[LUTE] Re: Cherbury lute book - Gautier Son adieu

[Jarosław Lipski]

>   You are quoting what Thurston Dart wrote in 1957. But Jean-Marie has
>   convincingly mentioned the letter which proved that lord Herbert was
>   involved in trying to get Jacques extradited back to France and
>   therefore "would not likely collect music by him". Of course, this is a
>   bit flimsy, as you could probably always distinguish between music and
>   the person in question.

Exactly, one has to distinguish between music and the person in question. I 
doubt very much if this affair would discourage Herbert to collect Jaques music 
if he thought about it highly.

> Some of those Gaultier pieces in Cherbury were
>   however published both in Besard and in Varietie, 1603 and 1610
>   respectively, and Jacques would have been only 3 and 10 years at that
>   time, so not likely by him. There is of course a possibility that some
>   of the pieces were by Ennemond and some by Jacques. Further research
>   may prove this.

As I wrote in my post Edward Herbert was collecting music during his life 
initially probably in form of sheet music which he copied later into his lute 
book, so exact attribution is very difficult. I never wrote that all the pieces 
titled Gaultier are identified. However, at least some of them seem to be 
composed by Jacques Gaultier, and this is not only mine and Thurston Dart’s 
opinion.

>   As to the amateur status of lord Herbert, you only have to listen to
>   O'Dette's CD to completely loose this presumption. Many of the pieces
>   in the manuscript, are magnificent and highly professional and require
>   a high degree of dexterity to perform.

I know Paul’s CD, but amateur doesn’t mean ignorant, or worthless. Writing 
„amateur” I meant that he played and collected music not for money, but rather 
for his personal entertainment. And this is what he wrote about himself:
„I attained also to sing my part at first sight in music, and to play on the 
lute with very little or almost no teaching…my learning of music was for this 
end that I might entertain myself at home…”

Best

JL



>   Best
>   G.
> 
>   On Sat, Feb 3, 2018 at 3:38 PM, JarosÅaw Lipski
>   <[1]jaroslawlip...@wp.pl> wrote:
> 
> Most probably Gauthier refers to Jacques Gaultier d'Angleterre.
> After killing his opponent in a duel Gaultier came to England in
> 1617. He was a member of King's Musick beginning with 1619 until
> 1648. Although Lord Herbert traveled both to France and Rome he
> returned to London in 1617, so he had a good opportunity to meet
> Jacques Gaultier who played there several times. In 1619 Edward
> Herbert   went back to Paris as an ambassador to the French court,
> but had to leave after he opposed marriage between Prince Charles
> and Henrietta Maria. King James in return banished him to Ireland
> were Herbert spent almost 9 years, but from 1628 he was allowed to
> return to Montgomery castle. The type of bindings in olive morocco
> was already used in France by George Drobet on a book for Marie de
> Medicis in 1611, so there are big chances that his lute book was
> bound most probably in Paris, or it was bought by him ready made
> from a bookseller on one of his trips to Paris (maybe from
> Ballards?).
> On the other hand Lord Cherbury was an amateur lute player and he
> most probably used to copy pieces to his lute book   from some loose
> sheets of paper dated probably much earlier, and which he acquired
> from renown lute players that he met. This is why we can't be sure
> about exact dates and attribution of particular pieces, but it seems
> very likely that he met Jacques Gaultier on several occasions and he
> is the most likely composer of the compositions in question.
> Best
> JL
>> WiadomoÅÄ napisana przez Alain Veylit
> <[2]al...@musickshandmade.com> w dniu 02.02.2018, o godz. 19:04:
>> 
>> 
>>   There are two possible connections between Cherbury and
> Ennemond
>>   Gautier: both were connected to the Montmorency household, and
> Cherbury
>>   was acting as English ambassador at court when Ennemond moved
> there ca.
>>   1620.   Yet Ennemond was apparently stingy when it came to
> sharing his
>>   music and the music in the Cherb MS seems more representative
> of his
>>   earlier stay in France and is consistently using the vieil ton.
> So I
>>   still think that Jacques Gautier (d'Angleterre) is the more
> likely
>>   author of the Adieu.
>>   I could not find the references to Cherbury on Peter Stueur's
> site
>>   alas... (I wonder if the Vorhandene Manuskripte table could be
> given
>>   its own page with more descriptive titles associated with the
> sources
>>   numbers...)
>>   Alain
>> 
>>   On 02/02/2018 02:55 AM, Jean-Marie Poirier wrote:
>> 
>> We do learn at all ages indeed ;-)!
>> Au passage, thank you Alain for all your hard work so useful to
> all of us !
>> Jen-Marie
>> 
>> 
> 
>> Le 2 févr. 2018 à 11:10, G. C. 

[LUTE] Re: Cherbury lute book

[Matteo Turri]

   Just found that the thesis of Julia Craig-McFeely also has the 3
   additional pieces as in the "Catalogue" below - see
   [1]http://www.ramesescats.co.uk/thesis/App1c.pdf
   Matteo
   -- Forwarded message --
   From: Matteo Turri <[2]matteo.o.tu...@gmail.com>
   Date: 3 February 2018 at 17:19
   Subject: Re: [LUTE] Re: Cherbury lute book
   To: "G. C." <[3]kalei...@gmail.com>
   Cc: lutelist Net <
   ââ
   [4]lute@cs.dartmouth.edu>
   Interestingly, this references at [5]https://w1.bnu.fr/smt/sommaire.htm
   lists 245 pieces:

   ââ
   CATALOGUE DES SOURCES MANUSCRITES EN TABLATURE
   Luth et théorbe
   c.1500-c.1800
   Catalogue descriptif / A Descriptive Inventory

Publié par / Published by
   CHRISTIAN MEYER
  avec la collaboration de

Tim Crawford, François-Pierre Goy, Peter Király, Monique Rollin


   [6]SOURCES MANUSCRITES EN TABLATURE
   MANUSCRIPT SOURCES IN TABLATURE

   [7]Vol. IV. Grande-Bretagne (en préparation)
 __

   [8]CAMBRIDGE, Fitzwilliam Museum (GB-Cfm)Ms 689
   Therein
   no. 91 is a "Prelude" at the end of the second "Volte/ Pietreson", not
   in the
   â
   Veylit's edition (firs shift in numbering);
   no. 228   "-- Pavan of the Composition/ of mee Edward Lord Herbert/
   1627 3to Martii; die scilicet/ natalicio
   cf. n ° 219" - is omitted in the
   â
   Veylit's edition (second shift);
   nos. 235-237 are 3 "Volte/ Jacob", wherein Veylit's edition has only 2
   (third shift);
   no. 241-243 are Prelude, Fantasia, Prelude/Hely, wherein in Veylit's
   edition the corresponding nos. 238-240 are three Preludes.
   Yes, I know Dart lists 242 pieces.
   Looking forward to the edition of the Lute Society ...
   M.

   Matteo
   On 3 February 2018 at 14:51, G. C. <[9]kalei...@gmail.com> wrote:

Track list from O'Dette's CD / Piece number

   ââ

   ââ

 Veylit's edition)
 1.112
 2.119
 3.127
 4.130
 5.121
 6.105
 7.199
 8.146
 9.143
10. 144
11. 196
12. 217
13. 209
14. 225
15. 227
16.  35
17.  39
18.  70 (different)
19.  87
20. 230
21. 236
22. 237
23.  42
24.  59
25.  55
26.  51
27.  50
28. 241
Hey Dude, far out man! That Cato stuff really blows my mind. Prel
 of
prels, like. Yeah, groovy man! Peace and Love.
G.
--
 To get on or off this list see list information at
 [10]http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html

   --

References

   Visible links
   1. http://www.ramesescats.co.uk/thesis/App1c.pdf
   2. mailto:matteo.o.tu...@gmail.com
   3. mailto:kalei...@gmail.com
   4. mailto:lute@cs.dartmouth.edu
   5. https://w1.bnu.fr/smt/sommaire.htm
   6. https://w1.bnu.fr/smt/sommaire.htm
   7. https://w1.bnu.fr/smt/smt4.htm
   8. https://w1.bnu.fr/smt/0181.htm
   9. mailto:kalei...@gmail.com
  10. http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html

   Hidden links:
  12. https://w1.bnu.fr/smt/sommaire.htm
  13. https://w1.bnu.fr/smt/sommaire.htm
  14. https://w1.bnu.fr/smt/sommaire.htm
  15. https://w1.bnu.fr/smt/sommaire.htm

[LUTE] Re: Cherbury lute book

[Matteo Turri]

   Interestingly, this references at [1]https://w1.bnu.fr/smt/sommaire.htm
   lists 245 pieces:

   CATALOGUE DES SOURCES MANUSCRITES EN TABLATURE
 Luth et théorbe
c.1500-c.1800
   Catalogue descriptif / A Descriptive Inventory

Publié par / Published by
   CHRISTIAN MEYER
  avec la collaboration de

Tim Crawford, François-Pierre Goy, Peter Király, Monique Rollin


   [2]SOURCES MANUSCRITES EN TABLATURE
   MANUSCRIPT SOURCES IN TABLATURE

   [3]Vol. IV. Grande-Bretagne (en préparation)
 __

   [4]CAMBRIDGE, Fitzwilliam Museum (GB-Cfm)Ms 689
   Therein
   no. 91 is a "Prelude" at the end of the second "Volte/ Pietreson", not
   in the
   â
   Veylit's edition (firs shift in numbering);
   no. 228   "-- Pavan of the Composition/ of mee Edward Lord Herbert/
   1627 3to Martii; die scilicet/ natalicio
   cf. n ° 219" - is omitted in the
   â
   Veylit's edition (second shift);
   nos. 235-237 are 3 "Volte/ Jacob", wherein Veylit's edition has only 2
   (third shift);
   no. 241-243 are Prelude, Fantasia, Prelude/Hely, wherein in Veylit's
   edition the corresponding nos. 238-240 are three Preludes.
   Yes, I know Dart lists 242 pieces.
   Looking forward to the edition of the Lute Society ...
   M.

   Matteo
   On 3 February 2018 at 14:51, G. C. <[5]kalei...@gmail.com> wrote:

Track list from O'Dette's CD / Piece number

   ââ

   ââ

 Veylit's edition)
 1.112
 2.119
 3.127
 4.130
 5.121
 6.105
 7.199
 8.146
 9.143
10. 144
11. 196
12. 217
13. 209
14. 225
15. 227
16.  35
17.  39
18.  70 (different)
19.  87
20. 230
21. 236
22. 237
23.  42
24.  59
25.  55
26.  51
27.  50
28. 241
Hey Dude, far out man! That Cato stuff really blows my mind. Prel
 of
prels, like. Yeah, groovy man! Peace and Love.
G.
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   4. https://w1.bnu.fr/smt/0181.htm
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  11. https://w1.bnu.fr/smt/sommaire.htm

[LUTE] Re: Cherbury lute book - Gautier Son adieu

[G. C.]

   Dear Jaroslaw,
   You are quoting what Thurston Dart wrote in 1957. But Jean-Marie has
   convincingly mentioned the letter which proved that lord Herbert was
   involved in trying to get Jacques extradited back to France and
   therefore "would not likely collect music by him". Of course, this is a
   bit flimsy, as you could probably always distinguish between music and
   the person in question. Some of those Gaultier pieces in Cherbury were
   however published both in Besard and in Varietie, 1603 and 1610
   respectively, and Jacques would have been only 3 and 10 years at that
   time, so not likely by him. There is of course a possibility that some
   of the pieces were by Ennemond and some by Jacques. Further research
   may prove this.
   As to the amateur status of lord Herbert, you only have to listen to
   O'Dette's CD to completely loose this presumption. Many of the pieces
   in the manuscript, are magnificent and highly professional and require
   a high degree of dexterity to perform.
   Best
   G.

   On Sat, Feb 3, 2018 at 3:38 PM, JarosÅaw Lipski
   <[1]jaroslawlip...@wp.pl> wrote:

 Most probably Gauthier refers to Jacques Gaultier d'Angleterre.
 After killing his opponent in a duel Gaultier came to England in
 1617. He was a member of King's Musick beginning with 1619 until
 1648. Although Lord Herbert traveled both to France and Rome he
 returned to London in 1617, so he had a good opportunity to meet
 Jacques Gaultier who played there several times. In 1619 Edward
 Herbert   went back to Paris as an ambassador to the French court,
 but had to leave after he opposed marriage between Prince Charles
 and Henrietta Maria. King James in return banished him to Ireland
 were Herbert spent almost 9 years, but from 1628 he was allowed to
 return to Montgomery castle. The type of bindings in olive morocco
 was already used in France by George Drobet on a book for Marie de
 Medicis in 1611, so there are big chances that his lute book was
 bound most probably in Paris, or it was bought by him ready made
 from a bookseller on one of his trips to Paris (maybe from
 Ballards?).
 On the other hand Lord Cherbury was an amateur lute player and he
 most probably used to copy pieces to his lute book   from some loose
 sheets of paper dated probably much earlier, and which he acquired
 from renown lute players that he met. This is why we can't be sure
 about exact dates and attribution of particular pieces, but it seems
 very likely that he met Jacques Gaultier on several occasions and he
 is the most likely composer of the compositions in question.
 Best
 JL
 > WiadomoÅÄ napisana przez Alain Veylit
 <[2]al...@musickshandmade.com> w dniu 02.02.2018, o godz. 19:04:
 >
 >
 >There are two possible connections between Cherbury and
 Ennemond
 >Gautier: both were connected to the Montmorency household, and
 Cherbury
 >was acting as English ambassador at court when Ennemond moved
 there ca.
 >1620.   Yet Ennemond was apparently stingy when it came to
 sharing his
 >music and the music in the Cherb MS seems more representative
 of his
 >earlier stay in France and is consistently using the vieil ton.
 So I
 >still think that Jacques Gautier (d'Angleterre) is the more
 likely
 >author of the Adieu.
 >I could not find the references to Cherbury on Peter Stueur's
 site
 >alas... (I wonder if the Vorhandene Manuskripte table could be
 given
 >its own page with more descriptive titles associated with the
 sources
 >numbers...)
 >Alain
 >
 >On 02/02/2018 02:55 AM, Jean-Marie Poirier wrote:
 >
 > We do learn at all ages indeed ;-)!
 > Au passage, thank you Alain for all your hard work so useful to
 all of us !
 > Jen-Marie
 >
 >

   > Le 2 févr. 2018 à 11:10, G. C. [2]<[3]kalei...@gmail.com> a écrit
   :
   >
   >   I was not aware of lord Herbert's Jacques Gaultier extradition
   letter
   >   (found on Alain's site). The fact that some of the pieces have
   >   concordances in both Besard (1603) and Varietie (1610), also
   exclude
   >   Jacques.
   >   By the way, Alain, you should look at the concordances by Peter
   Steur
   >   to update those on the Fandango Cherbury page, where the ms. is not
   too
   >   unreadable. Very nice work, thanks Alain!
   >   G.
   >   On Fri, Feb 2, 2018 at 3:25 AM, Alain Veylit
   >   [3]<[1][4]al...@musickshandmade.com> wrote:
   >   Just a couple of points of recent history: back some 10 or 15 years
   >   ago, Joel Dugot from the French lute society
   >
   >   --
   >
   > References
   >
   >   1. [4]mailto:[5]al...@musickshandmade.com
   >
   >
   > To get on or off this list see list information at
   > [5][6]http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html
   

[LUTE] Re: Cherbury lute book - Gautier Son adieu

[Jarosław Lipski]

Most probably Gauthier refers to Jacques Gaultier d’Angleterre. After killing 
his opponent in a duel Gaultier came to England in 1617. He was a member of 
King’s Musick beginning with 1619 until 1648. Although Lord Herbert traveled 
both to France and Rome he returned to London in 1617, so he had a good 
opportunity to meet Jacques Gaultier who played there several times. In 1619 
Edward Herbert  went back to Paris as an ambassador to the French court, but 
had to leave after he opposed marriage between Prince Charles and Henrietta 
Maria. King James in return banished him to Ireland were Herbert spent almost 9 
years, but from 1628 he was allowed to return to Montgomery castle. The type of 
bindings in olive morocco was already used in France by George Drobet on a book 
for Marie de Medicis in 1611, so there are big chances that his lute book was 
bound most probably in Paris, or it was bought by him ready made from a 
bookseller on one of his trips to Paris (maybe from Ballards?).
On the other hand Lord Cherbury was an amateur lute player and he most probably 
used to copy pieces to his lute book  from some loose sheets of paper dated 
probably much earlier, and which he acquired from renown lute players that he 
met. This is why we can’t be sure about exact dates and attribution of 
particular pieces, but it seems very likely that he met Jacques Gaultier on 
several occasions and he is the most likely composer of the compositions in 
question.

Best

JL


> Wiadomość napisana przez Alain Veylit  w dniu 
> 02.02.2018, o godz. 19:04:
> 
> 
>   There are two possible connections between Cherbury and Ennemond
>   Gautier: both were connected to the Montmorency household, and Cherbury
>   was acting as English ambassador at court when Ennemond moved there ca.
>   1620.  Yet Ennemond was apparently stingy when it came to sharing his
>   music and the music in the Cherb MS seems more representative of his
>   earlier stay in France and is consistently using the vieil ton. So I
>   still think that Jacques Gautier (d'Angleterre) is the more likely
>   author of the Adieu.
>   I could not find the references to Cherbury on Peter Stueur's site
>   alas... (I wonder if the Vorhandene Manuskripte table could be given
>   its own page with more descriptive titles associated with the sources
>   numbers...)
>   Alain
> 
>   On 02/02/2018 02:55 AM, Jean-Marie Poirier wrote:
> 
> We do learn at all ages indeed ;-)!
> Au passage, thank you Alain for all your hard work so useful to all of us !
> Jen-Marie
> 
> 
> Le 2 févr. 2018 à 11:10, G. C. [2] a écrit :
> 
>  I was not aware of lord Herbert's Jacques Gaultier extradition letter
>  (found on Alain's site). The fact that some of the pieces have
>  concordances in both Besard (1603) and Varietie (1610), also exclude
>  Jacques.
>  By the way, Alain, you should look at the concordances by Peter Steur
>  to update those on the Fandango Cherbury page, where the ms. is not too
>  unreadable. Very nice work, thanks Alain!
>  G.
>  On Fri, Feb 2, 2018 at 3:25 AM, Alain Veylit
>  [3]<[1]al...@musickshandmade.com> wrote:
>  Just a couple of points of recent history: back some 10 or 15 years
>  ago, Joel Dugot from the French lute society
> 
>  --
> 
> References
> 
>  1. [4]mailto:al...@musickshandmade.com
> 
> 
> To get on or off this list see list information at
> [5]http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html
> 
> 
> 
> 
>   --
> 
> References
> 
>   1. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=jY4fsnOIpCE
>   2. mailto:kalei...@gmail.com
>   3. mailto:[1]al...@musickshandmade.com
>   4. mailto:al...@musickshandmade.com
>   5. http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html
> 

[LUTE] Re: Cherbury lute book

[G. C.]

   Track list from O'Dette's CD / Piece number Veylit's edition)
1.   112
2.   119
3.   127
4.   130
5.   121
6.   105
7.   199
8.   146
9.   143
   10. 144
   11. 196
   12. 217
   13. 209
   14. 225
   15. 227
   16. 35
   17. 39
   18. 70 (different)
   19. 87
   20. 230
   21. 236
   22. 237
   23. 42
   24. 59
   25. 55
   26. 51
   27. 50
   28. 241
   Hey Dude, far out man! That Cato stuff really blows my mind. Prel of
   prels, like. Yeah, groovy man! Peace and Love.
   G.

   --


To get on or off this list see list information at
http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html

[LUTE] Re: Cherbury lute book

[Tristan von Neumann]

Dudes... I just tried to play some Diomedes Cato pieces from this 
amazing collection...
That's incredible stuff, I had shyed away from it, but it was really 
worth trying.

What was he on when he wrote this?
Vodka? Or did they also smoke weed?...
It's like Alberto on steroids. Lots of colouring and beautiful entries, 
using the whole scope of what you can fret on a lute, but always in a 
hand-friendly way (for pros, not for me).
The "Prélude des Préludes", despite being the first piece, seems to be a 
statement in title, similar to the "Ultimate Passamezzo" of Terzi...
(a piece which is really worth a look by the way, if you like quirky 
stuff). This is the Mother of Preludes.



Am 02.02.2018 um 22:31 schrieb Tristan von Neumann:
In England it seems there were already stoners, I heard that Henry VIII. 
fined farmers if they grow weed to smoke instead of selling it as 
industrial resource. I don't know if that's true.


But then there's this:

http://edition.cnn.com/2001/WORLD/europe/UK/03/01/shakespeare.cannabis/

I'd rather be stoned than hammered :)


Am 02.02.2018 um 17:35 schrieb John Mardinly:

    Wasn't Dowland fired by King Christian of Denmark for being drunk all
    the time? Could it be then considered that playing ‘stoned' was more
    ‘authentic'?

    A. John Mardinly, Ph.D., P.E.
    The Sleep of Reason Produces Monsters
    Francisco Goya

    On Feb 2, 2018, at 5:26 AM, fournierbru <[1]fournier...@gmail.com>
    wrote:

  the Montreal community will be able to get stoned legay as of
    july
  1st...personally at 59..I am no longer interested..prefer playing
  Ballard and Gaultier
  Bruno
  Envoyé de mon appareil Samsung de Bell via le réseau le plus 
vaste au

  pays.
   Message d'origine 
  De : Dan Winheld <[2]dwinh...@lmi.net>
  Date : 18-02-01 8:44 PM (GMT-05:00)
  À : Susan Sandman <[3]susan.sand...@gmail.com>, Tristan von Neumann
  <[4]tristanvonneum...@gmx.de>
  Cc : lutelist Net <[5]lute@cs.dartmouth.edu>
  Objet : [LUTE] Re: Cherbury lute book
  They are legalizing Marijuana all over the place, come to 
California

    if
  you want to get stoned! (I gave up that little distraction decades
    ago,
  but I also much prefer Ballard). :-D
  Dan
  On 2/1/2018 5:15 PM, Susan Sandman wrote:

 Stoning is medieval, appropriate only hundreds of years 
before...

 Susan
 On Thu, Feb 1, 2018 at 6:46 PM Tristan von Neumann
 <[1][6]tristanvonneum...@gmx.de> wrote:
   Do I get stoned by the community if I say that I like Ballard

  more

   anyway? :)
   Am 02.02.2018 um 00:36 schrieb Jean-Marie Poirier:

  En guise de conclusion ;-) :
  If you look at the chronological development of Ennemond's

  career

   and life, his "his high reputation" as a baroque lute super

  hero

   simply doesn't hold.

  So there must be other material around to explain this

  phenomenon.

  Cherbury is only one piece in the puzzle and certainly not

  the

   most interesting one concerning old Ennemond! There is a lot

  more to

   see and play in at least a dozen other ms. and of course his
   production in accords nouveaux is another essential aspect of

  the

   problem.

  Merci de votre intérêt et la "chasse" continue... :-)!
  Best,
  Jean-Marie

  Le 1 févr. 2018 à 22:53, G. C. <[2][7]kalei...@gmail.com>

  a écrit

   :

 PS.
 And of course, I meant to say "you and Jean-Marie"

  SORRY! :D

 On Thu, Feb 1, 2018 at 10:27 PM, G. C.

   <[1][3][8]kalei...@gmail.com> wrote:

  Great that you feel that way, Ron. I'm just saying,

  that

   comparing to
  what there is of real quality music for the lute

  out

   there, and

   trying
  to keep in mind, the "high reputation" of Ennemond

   Gaultier, I'm

   sadly,
  not at all impressed by these alleged simple

  courantes

   and voltas

   in
  Cherbury. Whatever his fame might otherwise be,

   these little

   pieces
  just don't cut the mustard IMHO.
  But if you, as a renowned player, recognise

  Ennemond's

   style in

   those
  little ditties, I'm definitely not going to argue.

  :)

  Best
  G
  On Thu, Feb 1, 2018 at 10:09 PM, Ron Andrico
   <[1][2][4][9]praelu...@hotmail.com>
  wrote:
   G, I think you may have misunderstood my

  message.

 I was

   not
 

[LUTE] Re: Cherbury lute book

[Tristan von Neumann]

Did he visit some great composer like Bach? :)
Unfortunately, Dowland couldn't send a cousin as backup.
Bach didn't get fired when he tripled his vacation :)


Am 02.02.2018 um 17:50 schrieb Ron Andrico:

Dowland was released from his post by Christian IV of Denmark for
overstaying his very long leave of absence, neglecting his musical
duties while continuing to draw a higher salary than the Admiral of the
Danish navy.  It was actually the King who had a reputation for
frequent and excessive inebriation.
RA
  __

From: lute-...@cs.dartmouth.edu <lute-...@cs.dartmouth.edu> on behalf
of John Mardinly <john.mardi...@asu.edu>
Sent: Friday, February 2, 2018 4:35 PM
To: fournierbru
Cc: Dan Winheld; Susan Sandman; Tristan von Neumann; lutelist Net
    Subject: [LUTE] Re: Cherbury lute book

   Wasn't Dowland fired by King Christian of Denmark for being drunk
all
   the time? Could it be then considered that playing ‘stoned' was more
   ‘authentic'?
   A. John Mardinly, Ph.D., P.E.
   The Sleep of Reason Produces Monsters
   Francisco Goya
   On Feb 2, 2018, at 5:26 AM, fournierbru <[1]fournier...@gmail.com>
   wrote:
 the Montreal community will be able to get stoned legay as of
   july
 1st...personally at 59..I am no longer interested..prefer playing
 Ballard and Gaultier
 Bruno
 Envoyé de mon appareil Samsung de Bell via le réseau le plus vaste
au
 pays.
  Message d'origine 
 De : Dan Winheld <[2]dwinh...@lmi.net>
 Date : 18-02-01 8:44 PM (GMT-05:00)
 À : Susan Sandman <[3]susan.sand...@gmail.com>, Tristan von
Neumann
 <[4]tristanvonneum...@gmx.de>
 Cc : lutelist Net <[5]lute@cs.dartmouth.edu>
 Objet : [LUTE] Re: Cherbury lute book
 They are legalizing Marijuana all over the place, come to
California
   if
 you want to get stoned! (I gave up that little distraction decades
   ago,
 but I also much prefer Ballard). :-D
 Dan
 On 2/1/2018 5:15 PM, Susan Sandman wrote:
Stoning is medieval, appropriate only hundreds of years
before...
Susan
On Thu, Feb 1, 2018 at 6:46 PM Tristan von Neumann
<[1][6]tristanvonneum...@gmx.de> wrote:
  Do I get stoned by the community if I say that I like Ballard
 more
  anyway? :)
  Am 02.02.2018 um 00:36 schrieb Jean-Marie Poirier:
 En guise de conclusion ;-) :
 If you look at the chronological development of Ennemond's
 career
  and life, his "his high reputation" as a baroque lute super
 hero
  simply doesn't hold.
 So there must be other material around to explain this
 phenomenon.
 Cherbury is only one piece in the puzzle and certainly not
 the
  most interesting one concerning old Ennemond! There is a lot
 more to
  see and play in at least a dozen other ms. and of course his
  production in accords nouveaux is another essential aspect of
 the
  problem.
 Merci de votre intà ©rà ªt et la "chasse" continue... :-)!
 Best,
 Jean-Marie
 Le 1 fà ©vr. 2018 à  22:53, G. C. <[2][7]kalei...@gmail.com>
 a à ©crit
  :
PS.
And of course, I meant to say "you and Jean-Marie"
 SORRY! :D
On Thu, Feb 1, 2018 at 10:27 PM, G. C.
  <[1][3][8]kalei...@gmail.com> wrote:
 Great that you feel that way, Ron. I'm just saying,
 that
  comparing to
 what there is of real quality music for the lute
 out
  there, and
  trying
 to keep in mind, the "high reputation" of Ennemond
  Gaultier, I'm
  sadly,
 not at all impressed by these alleged simple
 courantes
  and voltas
  in
 Cherbury. Whatever his fame might otherwise be,
  these little
  pieces
 just don't cut the mustard IMHO.
 But if you, as a renowned player, recognise
 Ennemond's
  style in
  those
 little ditties, I'm definitely not going to argue.
 :)
 Best
 G
 On Thu, Feb 1, 2018 at 10:09 PM, Ron Andrico
  <[1][2][4][9]praelu...@hotmail.com>
 wrote:
  G, I think you may have misunderstood my
 message.
I was
  not

[LUTE] Re: Cherbury lute book

[Tristan von Neumann]

In England it seems there were already stoners, I heard that Henry VIII. 
fined farmers if they grow weed to smoke instead of selling it as 
industrial resource. I don't know if that's true.


But then there's this:

http://edition.cnn.com/2001/WORLD/europe/UK/03/01/shakespeare.cannabis/

I'd rather be stoned than hammered :)


Am 02.02.2018 um 17:35 schrieb John Mardinly:

Wasn't Dowland fired by King Christian of Denmark for being drunk all
the time? Could it be then considered that playing ‘stoned' was more
‘authentic'?

A. John Mardinly, Ph.D., P.E.
The Sleep of Reason Produces Monsters
Francisco Goya

On Feb 2, 2018, at 5:26 AM, fournierbru <[1]fournier...@gmail.com>
wrote:

  the Montreal community will be able to get stoned legay as of
july
  1st...personally at 59..I am no longer interested..prefer playing
  Ballard and Gaultier
  Bruno
  Envoyé de mon appareil Samsung de Bell via le réseau le plus vaste au
  pays.
   Message d'origine 
  De : Dan Winheld <[2]dwinh...@lmi.net>
  Date : 18-02-01 8:44 PM (GMT-05:00)
  À : Susan Sandman <[3]susan.sand...@gmail.com>, Tristan von Neumann
  <[4]tristanvonneum...@gmx.de>
  Cc : lutelist Net <[5]lute@cs.dartmouth.edu>
      Objet : [LUTE] Re: Cherbury lute book
  They are legalizing Marijuana all over the place, come to California
if
  you want to get stoned! (I gave up that little distraction decades
ago,
  but I also much prefer Ballard). :-D
  Dan
  On 2/1/2018 5:15 PM, Susan Sandman wrote:

 Stoning is medieval, appropriate only hundreds of years before...
 Susan
 On Thu, Feb 1, 2018 at 6:46 PM Tristan von Neumann
 <[1][6]tristanvonneum...@gmx.de> wrote:
   Do I get stoned by the community if I say that I like Ballard

  more

   anyway? :)
   Am 02.02.2018 um 00:36 schrieb Jean-Marie Poirier:

  En guise de conclusion ;-) :
  If you look at the chronological development of Ennemond's

  career

   and life, his "his high reputation" as a baroque lute super

  hero

   simply doesn't hold.

  So there must be other material around to explain this

  phenomenon.

  Cherbury is only one piece in the puzzle and certainly not

  the

   most interesting one concerning old Ennemond! There is a lot

  more to

   see and play in at least a dozen other ms. and of course his
   production in accords nouveaux is another essential aspect of

  the

   problem.

  Merci de votre intérêt et la "chasse" continue... :-)!
  Best,
  Jean-Marie

  Le 1 févr. 2018 à 22:53, G. C. <[2][7]kalei...@gmail.com>

  a écrit

   :

 PS.
 And of course, I meant to say "you and Jean-Marie"

  SORRY! :D

 On Thu, Feb 1, 2018 at 10:27 PM, G. C.

   <[1][3][8]kalei...@gmail.com> wrote:

  Great that you feel that way, Ron. I'm just saying,

  that

   comparing to
  what there is of real quality music for the lute

  out

   there, and

   trying
  to keep in mind, the "high reputation" of Ennemond

   Gaultier, I'm

   sadly,
  not at all impressed by these alleged simple

  courantes

   and voltas

   in
  Cherbury. Whatever his fame might otherwise be,

   these little

   pieces
  just don't cut the mustard IMHO.
  But if you, as a renowned player, recognise

  Ennemond's

   style in

   those
  little ditties, I'm definitely not going to argue.

  :)

  Best
  G
  On Thu, Feb 1, 2018 at 10:09 PM, Ron Andrico
   <[1][2][4][9]praelu...@hotmail.com>
  wrote:
   G, I think you may have misunderstood my

  message.

 I was

   not
saying
   there were concordances in the CNRS edition of

   Vieux

   Gaultier
that
   definitely linked pieces in Herbert to the

  proper

   Gaultier.

  I
said
   that one could easily identify the style of

  music

   in that

   edition
and
   compare to the sparse style of the Herbert

  pieces

   attributed

   to
   Gaultier. From a player's point of view, I

  feel

   a very

   strong
   similarity, and one only has to supply

  ornamented

   repeats in

   the
proper
   

[LUTE] Re: Cherbury lute book - Gautier Son adieu

[Alain Veylit]

Thanks everyone for your quick responses - all of it very useful.

Jean-Marie, il y a encore une grosse zone d'obscurite et je ne mettrais 
pas ma main au feu sur cette attribution. J'ai fini par trouver 5 
concordances sur le site de Peter. L'attribution a Gothier dans un des 
manuscrits n'aide pas beaucoup... Qui sait, on se posera peut-etre le 
meme genre de questions sur Django Reinhardt d'ici 500 ans, lui-aussi 
analphabete, mais capable d'improviser sur Rachmaninoff... avec 3 
doigts, le vache!


Alain


On 02/02/2018 10:50 AM, Jean-Marie Poirier wrote:

ET voilà la version du Schele ! Je pense contrairement à toi qu'il s'agit bien 
d'Ennemond et la parcimonie avec laquelle Gaultier
laissait filer ses pièces est toute relative... Le fait qu'il ait été 
analphabète a évidemment aggravé terriblement les choses !
Pourtant dès 1613, François Malherbe, dans sa correpsondance avec Peiresc fait allusion à 
"Gauthier, ...tenu pour le premier du métier" à la cour!
Donc le service des Montmorency a certainement facilité et hâté son arrivée 
dans l'entourage de Marie de Médicis...

Amicalement,

Jean-Marie


--
  

   Pondering about the Gautier pieces in Cherbury/concordances: I was not
   able to determine if the Courante "Son adieu" in Cherbury and the one
   in Vaudry Sayzenay are the same one... Actually I was not able to
   locate that piece in the Vaudry de Sayzenay, but there is a recording
   of a piece with that name by Trond Bengston at
   [1]https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=jY4fsnOIpCE

   Anyone with a copy of the "Adieu" in Schele: Schele 89/3?

   There are two possible connections between Cherbury and Ennemond
   Gautier: both were connected to the Montmorency household, and Cherbury
   was acting as English ambassador at court when Ennemond moved there ca.
   1620.  Yet Ennemond was apparently stingy when it came to sharing his
   music and the music in the Cherb MS seems more representative of his
   earlier stay in France and is consistently using the vieil ton. So I
   still think that Jacques Gautier (d'Angleterre) is the more likely
   author of the Adieu.
   I could not find the references to Cherbury on Peter Stueur's site
   alas... (I wonder if the Vorhandene Manuskripte table could be given
   its own page with more descriptive titles associated with the sources
   numbers...)
   Alain

   On 02/02/2018 02:55 AM, Jean-Marie Poirier wrote:

We do learn at all ages indeed ;-)!
Au passage, thank you Alain for all your hard work so useful to all of us !
Jen-Marie


Le 2 févr. 2018 à 11:10, G. C. [2] a écrit :

  I was not aware of lord Herbert's Jacques Gaultier extradition letter
  (found on Alain's site). The fact that some of the pieces have
  concordances in both Besard (1603) and Varietie (1610), also exclude
  Jacques.
  By the way, Alain, you should look at the concordances by Peter Steur
  to update those on the Fandango Cherbury page, where the ms. is not too
  unreadable. Very nice work, thanks Alain!
  G.
  On Fri, Feb 2, 2018 at 3:25 AM, Alain Veylit
  [3]<[1]al...@musickshandmade.com> wrote:
  Just a couple of points of recent history: back some 10 or 15 years
  ago, Joel Dugot from the French lute society

  --

References

  1. [4]mailto:al...@musickshandmade.com


To get on or off this list see list information at
[5]http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html




   --

References

   1. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=jY4fsnOIpCE
   2. mailto:kalei...@gmail.com
   3. mailto:[1]al...@musickshandmade.com
   4. mailto:al...@musickshandmade.com
   5. http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html

>

[LUTE] Re: Cherbury lute book - Gautier Son adieu

[Jean-Marie Poirier]

About l'Adieu by Ennemond Gaultier, I forgot to say that the later version in D 
minor is not related to the version in Cherbury, key nor style.

Jean-Marie


--
 
>   Pondering about the Gautier pieces in Cherbury/concordances: I was not
>   able to determine if the Courante "Son adieu" in Cherbury and the one
>   in Vaudry Sayzenay are the same one... Actually I was not able to
>   locate that piece in the Vaudry de Sayzenay, but there is a recording
>   of a piece with that name by Trond Bengston at
>   [1]https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=jY4fsnOIpCE
>
>   Anyone with a copy of the "Adieu" in Schele: Schele 89/3?
>
>   There are two possible connections between Cherbury and Ennemond
>   Gautier: both were connected to the Montmorency household, and Cherbury
>   was acting as English ambassador at court when Ennemond moved there ca.
>   1620.  Yet Ennemond was apparently stingy when it came to sharing his
>   music and the music in the Cherb MS seems more representative of his
>   earlier stay in France and is consistently using the vieil ton. So I
>   still think that Jacques Gautier (d'Angleterre) is the more likely
>   author of the Adieu.
>   I could not find the references to Cherbury on Peter Stueur's site
>   alas... (I wonder if the Vorhandene Manuskripte table could be given
>   its own page with more descriptive titles associated with the sources
>   numbers...)
>   Alain
>
>   On 02/02/2018 02:55 AM, Jean-Marie Poirier wrote:
>
>We do learn at all ages indeed ;-)!
>Au passage, thank you Alain for all your hard work so useful to all of us !
>Jen-Marie
>
>
>Le 2 févr. 2018 à 11:10, G. C. [2] a écrit :
>
>  I was not aware of lord Herbert's Jacques Gaultier extradition letter
>  (found on Alain's site). The fact that some of the pieces have
>  concordances in both Besard (1603) and Varietie (1610), also exclude
>  Jacques.
>  By the way, Alain, you should look at the concordances by Peter Steur
>  to update those on the Fandango Cherbury page, where the ms. is not too
>  unreadable. Very nice work, thanks Alain!
>  G.
>  On Fri, Feb 2, 2018 at 3:25 AM, Alain Veylit
>  [3]<[1]al...@musickshandmade.com> wrote:
>  Just a couple of points of recent history: back some 10 or 15 years
>  ago, Joel Dugot from the French lute society
>
>  --
>
>References
>
>  1. [4]mailto:al...@musickshandmade.com
>
>
>To get on or off this list see list information at
>[5]http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html
>
>
>
>
>   --
>
>References
>
>   1. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=jY4fsnOIpCE
>   2. mailto:kalei...@gmail.com
>   3. mailto:[1]al...@musickshandmade.com
>   4. mailto:al...@musickshandmade.com
>   5. http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html
>

[LUTE] Re: Cherbury lute book - Gautier Son adieu

[Jean-Marie Poirier]

L'Adieu is not in Vaudry, it is in Oxford Bodleian Library G. 618 f° 24.

Jean-Marie


--
 
>   Pondering about the Gautier pieces in Cherbury/concordances: I was not
>   able to determine if the Courante "Son adieu" in Cherbury and the one
>   in Vaudry Sayzenay are the same one... Actually I was not able to
>   locate that piece in the Vaudry de Sayzenay, but there is a recording
>   of a piece with that name by Trond Bengston at
>   [1]https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=jY4fsnOIpCE
>
>   Anyone with a copy of the "Adieu" in Schele: Schele 89/3?
>
>   There are two possible connections between Cherbury and Ennemond
>   Gautier: both were connected to the Montmorency household, and Cherbury
>   was acting as English ambassador at court when Ennemond moved there ca.
>   1620.  Yet Ennemond was apparently stingy when it came to sharing his
>   music and the music in the Cherb MS seems more representative of his
>   earlier stay in France and is consistently using the vieil ton. So I
>   still think that Jacques Gautier (d'Angleterre) is the more likely
>   author of the Adieu.
>   I could not find the references to Cherbury on Peter Stueur's site
>   alas... (I wonder if the Vorhandene Manuskripte table could be given
>   its own page with more descriptive titles associated with the sources
>   numbers...)
>   Alain
>
>   On 02/02/2018 02:55 AM, Jean-Marie Poirier wrote:
>
>We do learn at all ages indeed ;-)!
>Au passage, thank you Alain for all your hard work so useful to all of us !
>Jen-Marie
>
>
>Le 2 févr. 2018 à 11:10, G. C. [2] a écrit :
>
>  I was not aware of lord Herbert's Jacques Gaultier extradition letter
>  (found on Alain's site). The fact that some of the pieces have
>  concordances in both Besard (1603) and Varietie (1610), also exclude
>  Jacques.
>  By the way, Alain, you should look at the concordances by Peter Steur
>  to update those on the Fandango Cherbury page, where the ms. is not too
>  unreadable. Very nice work, thanks Alain!
>  G.
>  On Fri, Feb 2, 2018 at 3:25 AM, Alain Veylit
>  [3]<[1]al...@musickshandmade.com> wrote:
>  Just a couple of points of recent history: back some 10 or 15 years
>  ago, Joel Dugot from the French lute society
>
>  --
>
>References
>
>  1. [4]mailto:al...@musickshandmade.com
>
>
>To get on or off this list see list information at
>[5]http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html
>
>
>
>
>   --
>
>References
>
>   1. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=jY4fsnOIpCE
>   2. mailto:kalei...@gmail.com
>   3. mailto:[1]al...@musickshandmade.com
>   4. mailto:al...@musickshandmade.com
>   5. http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html
>

[LUTE] Re: Cherbury lute book - Gautier Son adieu

[Markus Lutz]

Am 02.02.2018 um 19:04 schrieb Alain Veylit:

I could not find the references to Cherbury on Peter Stueur's site
alas... (I wonder if the Vorhandene Manuskripte table could be given
its own page with more descriptive titles associated with the sources
numbers...)
Alain



Hi Alain,
yes it's true, the table "Available Manuscripts" gets more and more 
complicated, as now there are more than 400 manuscripts.

But I fear, an own page for that still would be very/too? complicated.

As soon as I have time for it, I will try to put the manuscripts in a 
sidebar with only showing the manuscripts of one country (or first 
letter)  only.
And it also would be a good thing to have the manuscript table, that is 
intern, searchable.

But to add this, I also will need some time.

The easiest way to find pieces or manuscripts often is to use the 
filtering feature:


Firstly got to "Manuscripts", the click on "Show Filters"
There you can search for
- the title you are looking for e.g. "Son Adieu" or "Son Ad"
- the manuscript that you are looking for via the beginning of the 
signature e.g. "GB-Cf"

- or for a certain Composer etc.

Normally you can use the beginning of the phrase, or even a part within 
a word, so f.i. "dieu" also will show the searched piece on place 9 (17 
entries).

The filters normally are case-sensitive!

The manuscripts always use the RISM signatures, that have the country 
first (in this case GB), then a hyphen, and after it the city (C for 
Cambridge) and then the short signature for the museum: Fitzwilliam 
Museum = fm; so that it is complete: GB-Cfm
After that Peter and me always use a shortened number of the complete 
signature. The complete signature or title will be given at the 
beginning of a manuscript or print.


The prints have normally the composer, often shortened, and a shortened 
title of it; or a year: e.g. Dowland-Var for Robert Dowland: Varietie of 
Lute Lessons


I think it is necessary to play around with the site some time to 
understand, how everything works!


But after some exercise nearly everything can be found quite swiftly!
Even sometimes new concordances can be found by filtering the incipits!

.. and if someone finds the site too complicated, he is invited to 
write to me, and I will see, if I can help or if it is possible to make 
it easier (if I have the time to do)!


Best regards
Markus




On 02/02/2018 02:55 AM, Jean-Marie Poirier wrote:

We do learn at all ages indeed ;-)!
Au passage, thank you Alain for all your hard work so useful to all of us !
Jen-Marie


Le 2 févr. 2018 à 11:10, G. C. [2] a écrit :

   I was not aware of lord Herbert's Jacques Gaultier extradition letter
   (found on Alain's site). The fact that some of the pieces have
   concordances in both Besard (1603) and Varietie (1610), also exclude
   Jacques.
   By the way, Alain, you should look at the concordances by Peter Steur
   to update those on the Fandango Cherbury page, where the ms. is not too
   unreadable. Very nice work, thanks Alain!
   G.
   On Fri, Feb 2, 2018 at 3:25 AM, Alain Veylit
   [3]<[1]al...@musickshandmade.com> wrote:
   Just a couple of points of recent history: back some 10 or 15 years
   ago, Joel Dugot from the French lute society

   --

References

   1. [4]mailto:al...@musickshandmade.com


To get on or off this list see list information at
[5]http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html




--

References

1. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=jY4fsnOIpCE
2. mailto:kalei...@gmail.com
3. mailto:[1]al...@musickshandmade.com
4. mailto:al...@musickshandmade.com
5. http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html




--

Markus Lutz
Schulstraße 11

88422 Bad Buchau

Tel  0 75 82 / 92 62 89
Fax  0 75 82 / 92 62 90
Mail mar...@gmlutz.de

[LUTE] Re: Cherbury lute book - Gautier Son adieu

[Alain Veylit]

   Pondering about the Gautier pieces in Cherbury/concordances: I was not
   able to determine if the Courante "Son adieu" in Cherbury and the one
   in Vaudry Sayzenay are the same one... Actually I was not able to
   locate that piece in the Vaudry de Sayzenay, but there is a recording
   of a piece with that name by Trond Bengston at
   [1]https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=jY4fsnOIpCE

   Anyone with a copy of the "Adieu" in Schele: Schele 89/3?

   There are two possible connections between Cherbury and Ennemond
   Gautier: both were connected to the Montmorency household, and Cherbury
   was acting as English ambassador at court when Ennemond moved there ca.
   1620.  Yet Ennemond was apparently stingy when it came to sharing his
   music and the music in the Cherb MS seems more representative of his
   earlier stay in France and is consistently using the vieil ton. So I
   still think that Jacques Gautier (d'Angleterre) is the more likely
   author of the Adieu.
   I could not find the references to Cherbury on Peter Stueur's site
   alas... (I wonder if the Vorhandene Manuskripte table could be given
   its own page with more descriptive titles associated with the sources
   numbers...)
   Alain

   On 02/02/2018 02:55 AM, Jean-Marie Poirier wrote:

We do learn at all ages indeed ;-)!
Au passage, thank you Alain for all your hard work so useful to all of us !
Jen-Marie


Le 2 févr. 2018 à 11:10, G. C. [2] a écrit :

  I was not aware of lord Herbert's Jacques Gaultier extradition letter
  (found on Alain's site). The fact that some of the pieces have
  concordances in both Besard (1603) and Varietie (1610), also exclude
  Jacques.
  By the way, Alain, you should look at the concordances by Peter Steur
  to update those on the Fandango Cherbury page, where the ms. is not too
  unreadable. Very nice work, thanks Alain!
  G.
  On Fri, Feb 2, 2018 at 3:25 AM, Alain Veylit
  [3]<[1]al...@musickshandmade.com> wrote:
  Just a couple of points of recent history: back some 10 or 15 years
  ago, Joel Dugot from the French lute society

  --

References

  1. [4]mailto:al...@musickshandmade.com


To get on or off this list see list information at
[5]http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html




   --

References

   1. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=jY4fsnOIpCE
   2. mailto:kalei...@gmail.com
   3. mailto:[1]al...@musickshandmade.com
   4. mailto:al...@musickshandmade.com
   5. http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html

[LUTE] Re: Cherbury lute book

[Rainer]

This reminds me of a gig in Essen ages ago with Mark Wheeler's Pantagruel.

They were wearing (sort of) period costumes which looked great on Hannah and 
not so great on the boys.

One of the songs was Stingo (I think from one of the Playford books)

Now I understood why there was an open bottle on the stage labelled "Stingo".
Being a good friend of Mark in those days and sitting in the first row I stood 
up - during the performance - and smelled at the bottle.

Believe it or not - it contained beer.

Rainer



On 02.02.2018 17:50, Ron Andrico wrote:

Dowland was released from his post by Christian IV of Denmark for
overstaying his very long leave of absence, neglecting his musical
duties while continuing to draw a higher salary than the Admiral of the
Danish navy.  It was actually the King who had a reputation for
frequent and excessive inebriation.
RA
  __

From: lute-...@cs.dartmouth.edu <lute-...@cs.dartmouth.edu> on behalf
of John Mardinly <john.mardi...@asu.edu>
Sent: Friday, February 2, 2018 4:35 PM
To: fournierbru
Cc: Dan Winheld; Susan Sandman; Tristan von Neumann; lutelist Net
    Subject: [LUTE] Re: Cherbury lute book

   Wasn't Dowland fired by King Christian of Denmark for being drunk
all
   the time? Could it be then considered that playing ‘stoned' was more
   ‘authentic'?




To get on or off this list see list information at
http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html

[LUTE] Re: Cherbury lute book

[Roman Turovsky]

All of Europe's population was drunk all the time, until 1683, when 
coffee was adopted

from the Turks.
RT


   Wasn't Dowland fired by King Christian of Denmark for being drunk
all
   the time? Could it be then considered that playing ‘stoned' was more
   ‘authentic'?
   A. John Mardinly, Ph.D., P.E.
   The Sleep of Reason Produces Monsters
   Francisco Goya
   On Feb 2, 2018, at 5:26 AM, fournierbru <[1]fournier...@gmail.com>
   wrote:
 the Montreal community will be able to get stoned legay as of
   july
 1st...personally at 59..I am no longer interested..prefer playing
 Ballard and Gaultier
 Bruno
 Envoyé de mon appareil Samsung de Bell via le réseau le plus vaste
au
 pays.
  Message d'origine 
 De : Dan Winheld <[2]dwinh...@lmi.net>
 Date : 18-02-01 8:44 PM (GMT-05:00)
 À : Susan Sandman <[3]susan.sand...@gmail.com>, Tristan von
Neumann
 <[4]tristanvonneum...@gmx.de>
 Cc : lutelist Net <[5]lute@cs.dartmouth.edu>
     Objet : [LUTE] Re: Cherbury lute book
 They are legalizing Marijuana all over the place, come to
California
   if
 you want to get stoned! (I gave up that little distraction decades
   ago,
 but I also much prefer Ballard). :-D
 Dan
 On 2/1/2018 5:15 PM, Susan Sandman wrote:
Stoning is medieval, appropriate only hundreds of years
before...
Susan
On Thu, Feb 1, 2018 at 6:46 PM Tristan von Neumann
<[1][6]tristanvonneum...@gmx.de> wrote:
  Do I get stoned by the community if I say that I like Ballard
 more
  anyway? :)
  Am 02.02.2018 um 00:36 schrieb Jean-Marie Poirier:
 En guise de conclusion ;-) :
 If you look at the chronological development of Ennemond's
 career
  and life, his "his high reputation" as a baroque lute super
 hero
  simply doesn't hold.
 So there must be other material around to explain this
 phenomenon.
 Cherbury is only one piece in the puzzle and certainly not
 the
  most interesting one concerning old Ennemond! There is a lot
 more to
  see and play in at least a dozen other ms. and of course his
  production in accords nouveaux is another essential aspect of
 the
  problem.
 Merci de votre intà ©rà ªt et la "chasse" continue... :-)!
 Best,
 Jean-Marie
 Le 1 fà ©vr. 2018 à  22:53, G. C. <[2][7]kalei...@gmail.com>
 a à ©crit
  :
PS.
And of course, I meant to say "you and Jean-Marie"
 SORRY! :D
On Thu, Feb 1, 2018 at 10:27 PM, G. C.
  <[1][3][8]kalei...@gmail.com> wrote:
 Great that you feel that way, Ron. I'm just saying,
 that
  comparing to
 what there is of real quality music for the lute
 out
  there, and
  trying
 to keep in mind, the "high reputation" of Ennemond
  Gaultier, I'm
  sadly,
 not at all impressed by these alleged simple
 courantes
  and voltas
  in
 Cherbury. Whatever his fame might otherwise be,
  these little
  pieces
 just don't cut the mustard IMHO.
 But if you, as a renowned player, recognise
 Ennemond's
  style in
  those
 little ditties, I'm definitely not going to argue.
 :)
 Best
 G
 On Thu, Feb 1, 2018 at 10:09 PM, Ron Andrico
  <[1][2][4][9]praelu...@hotmail.com>
 wrote:
  G, I think you may have misunderstood my
 message.
I was
  not
   saying
  there were concordances in the CNRS edition of
  Vieux
  Gaultier
   that
  definitely linked pieces in Herbert to the
 proper
  Gaultier.
 I
   said
  that one could easily identify the style of
 music
  in that
  edition
   and
  compare to the sparse style of the Herbert
 pieces
  attributed
  to
  Gaultier. From a player's point of view, I
 feel
  a very
  strong
  similarity, and one only has to supply
 ornamented
  r

[LUTE] Re: Cherbury lute book

[G. C.]

   And Jacob Reys (1545 - 1605) "never played so well as when he was
   drunk" according to contemporary documents. No reports of any "stoned"
   luteplayers though, although they have apparently found traces of both
   coca and hemp in pipes in Shakespeares home (if this is not just
   another instance of the nowadays so popular fake news). [cleardot.gif]
   G
   On Fri, Feb 2, 2018 at 5:35 PM, John Mardinly
   <[1]john.mardi...@asu.edu> wrote:
  Wasn't Dowland fired by King Christian of Denmark for being drunk
   all
  the time?

   --

References

   1. mailto:john.mardi...@asu.edu


To get on or off this list see list information at
http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html

[LUTE] Re: Cherbury lute book

[John Mardinly]

   Wasn't Dowland fired by King Christian of Denmark for being drunk all
   the time? Could it be then considered that playing ‘stoned' was more
   ‘authentic'?

   A. John Mardinly, Ph.D., P.E.
   The Sleep of Reason Produces Monsters
   Francisco Goya

   On Feb 2, 2018, at 5:26 AM, fournierbru <[1]fournier...@gmail.com>
   wrote:

 the Montreal community will be able to get stoned legay as of
   july
 1st...personally at 59..I am no longer interested..prefer playing
 Ballard and Gaultier
 Bruno
 Envoyé de mon appareil Samsung de Bell via le réseau le plus vaste au
 pays.
  Message d'origine 
 De : Dan Winheld <[2]dwinh...@lmi.net>
 Date : 18-02-01 8:44 PM (GMT-05:00)
 À : Susan Sandman <[3]susan.sand...@gmail.com>, Tristan von Neumann
 <[4]tristanvonneum...@gmx.de>
 Cc : lutelist Net <[5]lute@cs.dartmouth.edu>
     Objet : [LUTE] Re: Cherbury lute book
 They are legalizing Marijuana all over the place, come to California
   if
 you want to get stoned! (I gave up that little distraction decades
   ago,
 but I also much prefer Ballard). :-D
 Dan
 On 2/1/2018 5:15 PM, Susan Sandman wrote:

Stoning is medieval, appropriate only hundreds of years before...
Susan
On Thu, Feb 1, 2018 at 6:46 PM Tristan von Neumann
<[1][6]tristanvonneum...@gmx.de> wrote:
  Do I get stoned by the community if I say that I like Ballard

 more

  anyway? :)
  Am 02.02.2018 um 00:36 schrieb Jean-Marie Poirier:

 En guise de conclusion ;-) :
 If you look at the chronological development of Ennemond's

 career

  and life, his "his high reputation" as a baroque lute super

 hero

  simply doesn't hold.

 So there must be other material around to explain this

 phenomenon.

 Cherbury is only one piece in the puzzle and certainly not

 the

  most interesting one concerning old Ennemond! There is a lot

 more to

  see and play in at least a dozen other ms. and of course his
  production in accords nouveaux is another essential aspect of

 the

  problem.

 Merci de votre intérêt et la "chasse" continue... :-)!
 Best,
 Jean-Marie

 Le 1 févr. 2018 à 22:53, G. C. <[2][7]kalei...@gmail.com>

 a écrit

  :

PS.
And of course, I meant to say "you and Jean-Marie"

 SORRY! :D

On Thu, Feb 1, 2018 at 10:27 PM, G. C.

  <[1][3][8]kalei...@gmail.com> wrote:

 Great that you feel that way, Ron. I'm just saying,

 that

  comparing to
 what there is of real quality music for the lute

 out

  there, and

  trying
 to keep in mind, the "high reputation" of Ennemond

  Gaultier, I'm

  sadly,
 not at all impressed by these alleged simple

 courantes

  and voltas

  in
 Cherbury. Whatever his fame might otherwise be,

  these little

  pieces
 just don't cut the mustard IMHO.
 But if you, as a renowned player, recognise

 Ennemond's

  style in

  those
 little ditties, I'm definitely not going to argue.

 :)

 Best
 G
 On Thu, Feb 1, 2018 at 10:09 PM, Ron Andrico
  <[1][2][4][9]praelu...@hotmail.com>
 wrote:
  G, I think you may have misunderstood my

 message.

I was

  not
   saying
  there were concordances in the CNRS edition of

  Vieux

  Gaultier
   that
  definitely linked pieces in Herbert to the

 proper

  Gaultier.

 I
   said
  that one could easily identify the style of

 music

  in that

  edition
   and
  compare to the sparse style of the Herbert

 pieces

  attributed

  to
  Gaultier. From a player's point of view, I

 feel

  a very

  strong
  similarity, and one only has to supply

 ornamented

  repeats in

  the
   proper
  style to flesh out the bones of these pieces

 and

  make some

  very
   fine
  music.
  RA
 --
  References
 1. mailto:[3][5][10]praelu...@hotmail.com
  To get on or off this list see list information at

  [4][6][11]https://urldefense.proofpoint.com/v2/url?u=http-3A__w
 ww.cs.dartmouth.edu_-7Ewbc_lute-2Dadmin_index.html=DwIFaQ=l45AxH
 -kUV29SRQusp9vYR0n1Gyc

[LUTE] Re: Cherbury lute book

[Jean-Marie Poirier]

:-D! Good choice Bruno!
Jean-Marie

> Le 2 févr. 2018 à 13:26, fournierbru <fournier...@gmail.com> a écrit :
> 
>   the Montreal community will be able to get stoned legay as of july
>   1st...personally at 59..I am no longer interested..prefer playing
>   Ballard and Gaultier
> 
>   Bruno
> 
>   Envoyé de mon appareil Samsung de Bell via le réseau le plus vaste au
>   pays.
> 
>    Message d'origine 
>   De : Dan Winheld <dwinh...@lmi.net>
>   Date : 18-02-01 8:44 PM (GMT-05:00)
>   À : Susan Sandman <susan.sand...@gmail.com>, Tristan von Neumann
>   <tristanvonneum...@gmx.de>
>   Cc : lutelist Net <lute@cs.dartmouth.edu>
>   Objet : [LUTE] Re: Cherbury lute book
> 
>   They are legalizing Marijuana all over the place, come to California if
>   you want to get stoned! (I gave up that little distraction decades ago,
>   but I also much prefer Ballard). :-D
>   Dan
>>   On 2/1/2018 5:15 PM, Susan Sandman wrote:
>>Stoning is medieval, appropriate only hundreds of years before...
>>Susan
>>On Thu, Feb 1, 2018 at 6:46 PM Tristan von Neumann
>><[1]tristanvonneum...@gmx.de> wrote:
>> 
>>  Do I get stoned by the community if I say that I like Ballard
>   more
>>  anyway? :)
>>>  Am 02.02.2018 um 00:36 schrieb Jean-Marie Poirier:
>>> En guise de conclusion ;-) :
>>> If you look at the chronological development of Ennemond's
>   career
>>  and life, his "his high reputation" as a baroque lute super
>   hero
>>  simply doesn't hold.
>>> So there must be other material around to explain this
>   phenomenon.
>>> Cherbury is only one piece in the puzzle and certainly not
>   the
>>  most interesting one concerning old Ennemond! There is a lot
>   more to
>>  see and play in at least a dozen other ms. and of course his
>>  production in accords nouveaux is another essential aspect of
>   the
>>  problem.
>>> 
>>> Merci de votre intérêt et la "chasse" continue... :-)!
>>> Best,
>>> Jean-Marie
>>> 
>>> 
>>>> Le 1 févr. 2018 à 22:53, G. C. <[2]kalei...@gmail.com>
>   a écrit
>>  :
>>>> 
>>>>PS.
>>>>And of course, I meant to say "you and Jean-Marie"
>   SORRY! :D
>>>>On Thu, Feb 1, 2018 at 10:27 PM, G. C.
>>  <[1][3]kalei...@gmail.com> wrote:
>>>> 
>>>> Great that you feel that way, Ron. I'm just saying,
>   that
>>>>  comparing to
>>>> what there is of real quality music for the lute
>   out
>>  there, and
>>>>  trying
>>>> to keep in mind, the "high reputation" of Ennemond
>>  Gaultier, I'm
>>>>  sadly,
>>>> not at all impressed by these alleged simple
>   courantes
>>  and voltas
>>>>  in
>>>> Cherbury. Whatever his fame might otherwise be,
>>  these little
>>>>  pieces
>>>> just don't cut the mustard IMHO.
>>>> But if you, as a renowned player, recognise
>   Ennemond's
>>  style in
>>>>  those
>>>> little ditties, I'm definitely not going to argue.
>   :)
>>>> Best
>>>> G
>>>> On Thu, Feb 1, 2018 at 10:09 PM, Ron Andrico
>>>>  <[1][2][4]praelu...@hotmail.com>
>>>> wrote:
>>>>  G, I think you may have misunderstood my
>   message.
>>I was
>>>>  not
>>>>   saying
>>>>  there were concordances in the CNRS edition of
>>  Vieux
>>>>  Gaultier
>>>>   that
>>>>  definitely linked pieces in Herbert to the
>   proper
>>  Gaultier.
>>>> I
>>>>   said
>>>>  that one could easily identify the style of
>   music
>>  in that
>>>>  edition
>>>>   and
>>>>  compare to the sparse style of the Herbert
>   pieces
>>  attributed
>>>>  to
>>>>  Gaultier. From a player's point of view, I
>   feel
>>  a very
>>>>  strong
>>>>  similarity, and one only has to supply
>   ornamented
>>  repeats in
>>>>  the
>>&

[LUTE] Re: Cherbury lute book

[Tristan von Neumann]

Historically (that is, "what Grandma remembered"), it was mainly the 
elderly smoking their home-grown weed, because it reduces the effects 
Parkinson and Alzheimer and other old age ailments. ;-)



Am 02.02.2018 um 13:26 schrieb fournierbru:

the Montreal community will be able to get stoned legay as of july
1st...personally at 59..I am no longer interested..prefer playing
Ballard and Gaultier

Bruno

Envoyé de mon appareil Samsung de Bell via le réseau le plus vaste au
pays.

 Message d'origine 
De : Dan Winheld <dwinh...@lmi.net>
Date : 18-02-01 8:44 PM (GMT-05:00)
À : Susan Sandman <susan.sand...@gmail.com>, Tristan von Neumann
<tristanvonneum...@gmx.de>
Cc : lutelist Net <lute@cs.dartmouth.edu>
    Objet : [LUTE] Re: Cherbury lute book

They are legalizing Marijuana all over the place, come to California if
you want to get stoned! (I gave up that little distraction decades ago,
but I also much prefer Ballard). :-D
Dan
On 2/1/2018 5:15 PM, Susan Sandman wrote:
> Stoning is medieval, appropriate only hundreds of years before...
> Susan
> On Thu, Feb 1, 2018 at 6:46 PM Tristan von Neumann
> <[1]tristanvonneum...@gmx.de> wrote:
>
>   Do I get stoned by the community if I say that I like Ballard
more
>   anyway? :)
>   Am 02.02.2018 um 00:36 schrieb Jean-Marie Poirier:
>   > En guise de conclusion ;-) :
>   > If you look at the chronological development of Ennemond's
career
>   and life, his "his high reputation" as a baroque lute super
hero
>   simply doesn't hold.
>   > So there must be other material around to explain this
phenomenon.
>   > Cherbury is only one piece in the puzzle and certainly not
the
>   most interesting one concerning old Ennemond! There is a lot
more to
>   see and play in at least a dozen other ms. and of course his
>   production in accords nouveaux is another essential aspect of
the
>   problem.
>   >
>   > Merci de votre intérêt et la "chasse" continue... :-)!
>   > Best,
>   > Jean-Marie
>   >
>   >
>   >> Le 1 févr. 2018 à 22:53, G. C. <[2]kalei...@gmail.com>
a écrit
>   :
>   >>
>   >> PS.
>   >> And of course, I meant to say "you and Jean-Marie"
SORRY! :D
>   >> On Thu, Feb 1, 2018 at 10:27 PM, G. C.
>   <[1][3]kalei...@gmail.com> wrote:
>   >>
>   >>  Great that you feel that way, Ron. I'm just saying,
that
>   >>   comparing to
>   >>  what there is of real quality music for the lute
out
>   there, and
>   >>   trying
>   >>  to keep in mind, the "high reputation" of Ennemond
>   Gaultier, I'm
>   >>   sadly,
>   >>  not at all impressed by these alleged simple
courantes
>   and voltas
>   >>   in
>   >>  Cherbury. Whatever his fame might otherwise be,
>   these little
>   >>   pieces
>   >>  just don't cut the mustard IMHO.
>   >>  But if you, as a renowned player, recognise
Ennemond's
>   style in
>   >>   those
>   >>  little ditties, I'm definitely not going to argue.
:)
>   >>  Best
>   >>  G
>   >>  On Thu, Feb 1, 2018 at 10:09 PM, Ron Andrico
>   >>   <[1][2][4]praelu...@hotmail.com>
>   >>  wrote:
>   >>   G, I think you may have misunderstood my
message.
> I was
>   >>   not
>   >>saying
>   >>   there were concordances in the CNRS edition of
>   Vieux
>   >>   Gaultier
>   >>that
>   >>   definitely linked pieces in Herbert to the
proper
>   Gaultier.
>   >>  I
>   >>said
>   >>   that one could easily identify the style of
music
>   in that
>   >>   edition
>   >>and
>   >>   compare to the sp

[LUTE] Re: Cherbury lute book

[fournierbru]

   the Montreal community will be able to get stoned legay as of july
   1st...personally at 59..I am no longer interested..prefer playing
   Ballard and Gaultier

   Bruno

   Envoyé de mon appareil Samsung de Bell via le réseau le plus vaste au
   pays.

    Message d'origine 
   De : Dan Winheld <dwinh...@lmi.net>
   Date : 18-02-01 8:44 PM (GMT-05:00)
   À : Susan Sandman <susan.sand...@gmail.com>, Tristan von Neumann
   <tristanvonneum...@gmx.de>
   Cc : lutelist Net <lute@cs.dartmouth.edu>
   Objet : [LUTE] Re: Cherbury lute book

   They are legalizing Marijuana all over the place, come to California if
   you want to get stoned! (I gave up that little distraction decades ago,
   but I also much prefer Ballard). :-D
   Dan
   On 2/1/2018 5:15 PM, Susan Sandman wrote:
   > Stoning is medieval, appropriate only hundreds of years before...
   > Susan
   > On Thu, Feb 1, 2018 at 6:46 PM Tristan von Neumann
   > <[1]tristanvonneum...@gmx.de> wrote:
   >
   >   Do I get stoned by the community if I say that I like Ballard
   more
   >   anyway? :)
   >   Am 02.02.2018 um 00:36 schrieb Jean-Marie Poirier:
   >   > En guise de conclusion ;-) :
   >   > If you look at the chronological development of Ennemond's
   career
   >   and life, his "his high reputation" as a baroque lute super
   hero
   >   simply doesn't hold.
   >   > So there must be other material around to explain this
   phenomenon.
   >   > Cherbury is only one piece in the puzzle and certainly not
   the
   >   most interesting one concerning old Ennemond! There is a lot
   more to
   >   see and play in at least a dozen other ms. and of course his
   >   production in accords nouveaux is another essential aspect of
   the
   >   problem.
   >   >
   >   > Merci de votre intérêt et la "chasse" continue... 
:-)!
   >   > Best,
   >   > Jean-Marie
   >   >
   >   >
   >   >> Le 1 févr. 2018 à 22:53, G. C. <[2]kalei...@gmail.com>
   a écrit
   >   :
   >   >>
   >   >> PS.
   >   >> And of course, I meant to say "you and Jean-Marie"
   SORRY! :D
   >   >> On Thu, Feb 1, 2018 at 10:27 PM, G. C.
   >   <[1][3]kalei...@gmail.com> wrote:
   >   >>
   >   >>  Great that you feel that way, Ron. I'm just saying,
   that
   >   >>   comparing to
   >   >>  what there is of real quality music for the lute
   out
   >   there, and
   >   >>   trying
   >   >>  to keep in mind, the "high reputation" of Ennemond
   >   Gaultier, I'm
   >   >>   sadly,
   >   >>  not at all impressed by these alleged simple
   courantes
   >   and voltas
   >   >>   in
   >   >>  Cherbury. Whatever his fame might otherwise be,
   >   these little
   >   >>   pieces
   >   >>  just don't cut the mustard IMHO.
   >   >>  But if you, as a renowned player, recognise
   Ennemond's
   >   style in
   >   >>   those
   >   >>  little ditties, I'm definitely not going to argue.
   :)
   >   >>  Best
   >   >>  G
   >   >>  On Thu, Feb 1, 2018 at 10:09 PM, Ron Andrico
   >   >>   <[1][2][4]praelu...@hotmail.com>
   >   >>  wrote:
   >   >>   G, I think you may have misunderstood my
   message.
   > I was
   >   >>   not
   >   >>saying
   >   >>   there were concordances in the CNRS edition of
   >   Vieux
   >   >>   Gaultier
   >   >>that
   >   >>   definitely linked pieces in Herbert to the
   proper
   >   Gaultier.
   >   >>  I
   >   >>said
   >   >>   that one could easily identify the style of
   music
   >   in that
   >   >>   edition
   >   >>and
   >   >>   compare to the sparse style of the Herbert
   pieces
   >   attributed
   >   >>   to
   >   >>   Gaultier. From a player's point of view, I
   feel
   >   a very
   >   >>   strong
   >   >>   similarity, and one 

[LUTE] Re: Cherbury lute book

[G. C.]

   I was not aware of lord Herbert's Jacques Gaultier extradition letter
   (found on Alain's site). The fact that some of the pieces have
   concordances in both Besard (1603) and Varietie (1610), also exclude
   Jacques.
   By the way, Alain, you should look at the concordances by Peter Steur
   to update those on the Fandango Cherbury page, where the ms. is not too
   unreadable. Very nice work, thanks Alain!
   G.
   On Fri, Feb 2, 2018 at 3:25 AM, Alain Veylit
   <[1]al...@musickshandmade.com> wrote:
   Just a couple of points of recent history: back some 10 or 15 years
   ago, Joel Dugot from the French lute society

   --

References

   1. mailto:al...@musickshandmade.com


To get on or off this list see list information at
http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html

[LUTE] Re: Cherbury lute book

[Jean-Marie Poirier]

We do learn at all ages indeed ;-)!
Au passage, thank you Alain for all your hard work so useful to all of us !
Jen-Marie

> Le 2 févr. 2018 à 11:10, G. C.  a écrit :
> 
>   I was not aware of lord Herbert's Jacques Gaultier extradition letter
>   (found on Alain's site). The fact that some of the pieces have
>   concordances in both Besard (1603) and Varietie (1610), also exclude
>   Jacques.
>   By the way, Alain, you should look at the concordances by Peter Steur
>   to update those on the Fandango Cherbury page, where the ms. is not too
>   unreadable. Very nice work, thanks Alain!
>   G.
>   On Fri, Feb 2, 2018 at 3:25 AM, Alain Veylit
>   <[1]al...@musickshandmade.com> wrote:
>   Just a couple of points of recent history: back some 10 or 15 years
>   ago, Joel Dugot from the French lute society
> 
>   --
> 
> References
> 
>   1. mailto:al...@musickshandmade.com
> 
> 
> To get on or off this list see list information at
> http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html

[LUTE] Re: Cherbury lute book

[Jean-Marie Poirier]

Marijuana notwithstanding ;-), Ballard and Gaultier’s parallel lives and 
careers are quite symptomatic of the change of style and technique which 
characterized their time. 
Ballard was lucky to have a brother who was a royal printer, which gave him 
access to the select world of printed edition, a chance Gaultier never had 
before his cousin Denis decided to print some of “his” music, ( but what was 
Denis’s part in the restitution of this music, we will never know) decades 
after Ennemond’s death at Nèves in Dauphiné. This certainly makes a big 
difference in the way we apprehend the works of these two giants. 
Gaultier is said to have been illiterate which is perhaps one of the reasons he 
could never have his works printed and no autograph version of some of his 
pieces can be found... 
I do love Ballard’s music, of course, but I simply try to defend Gaultier’s 
contribution in the old tuning repertoire and such pieces as Gaultier son 
Adieu, or Les Larmes, or Courante sur si j’avais brisé mes fers, to name only a 
few, show that the two were on the same musical ground but their approach is 
very different. 
I would certainly never say one is “better” than the other. It simply wouldn’t 
make any sense. Instead I play both ;-) and others too like this underrated guy 
Lespine...
As for Jacob Polonois, another great, Paul Kieffer gave us a superb recording 
of his music a little while ago.

Happy plucking to all !

Jean-Marie

> Le 2 févr. 2018 à 02:44, Dan Winheld  a écrit :
> 
> They are legalizing Marijuana all over the place, come to California if you 
> want to get stoned! (I gave up that little distraction decades ago, but I 
> also much prefer Ballard). :-D
> Dan
> 
>> On 2/1/2018 5:15 PM, Susan Sandman wrote:
>>Stoning is medieval, appropriate only hundreds of years before...
>>Susan
>>On Thu, Feb 1, 2018 at 6:46 PM Tristan von Neumann
>><[1]tristanvonneum...@gmx.de> wrote:
>> 
>>  Do I get stoned by the community if I say that I like Ballard more
>>  anyway? :)
>>  Am 02.02.2018 um 00:36 schrieb Jean-Marie Poirier:
>>  > En guise de conclusion ;-) :
>>  > If you look at the chronological development of Ennemond's career
>>  and life, his "his high reputation" as a baroque lute super hero
>>  simply doesn't hold.
>>  > So there must be other material around to explain this phenomenon.
>>  > Cherbury is only one piece in the puzzle and certainly not the
>>  most interesting one concerning old Ennemond! There is a lot more to
>>  see and play in at least a dozen other ms. and of course his
>>  production in accords nouveaux is another essential aspect of the
>>  problem.
>>  >
>>  > Merci de votre intérêt et la "chasse" continue... :-)!
>>  > Best,
>>  > Jean-Marie
>>  >
>>  >
>>  >> Le 1 févr. 2018 à 22:53, G. C. <[2]kalei...@gmail.com> a 
>> écrit
>>  :
>>  >>
>>  >> PS.
>>  >> And of course, I meant to say "you and Jean-Marie" SORRY! :D
>>  >> On Thu, Feb 1, 2018 at 10:27 PM, G. C.
>>  <[1][3]kalei...@gmail.com> wrote:
>>  >>
>>  >>  Great that you feel that way, Ron. I'm just saying, that
>>  >>   comparing to
>>  >>  what there is of real quality music for the lute out
>>  there, and
>>  >>   trying
>>  >>  to keep in mind, the "high reputation" of Ennemond
>>  Gaultier, I'm
>>  >>   sadly,
>>  >>  not at all impressed by these alleged simple courantes
>>  and voltas
>>  >>   in
>>  >>  Cherbury. Whatever his fame might otherwise be,
>>  these little
>>  >>   pieces
>>  >>  just don't cut the mustard IMHO.
>>  >>  But if you, as a renowned player, recognise Ennemond's
>>  style in
>>  >>   those
>>  >>  little ditties, I'm definitely not going to argue. :)
>>  >>  Best
>>  >>  G
>>  >>  On Thu, Feb 1, 2018 at 10:09 PM, Ron Andrico
>>  >>   <[1][2][4]praelu...@hotmail.com>
>>  >>  wrote:
>>  >>   G, I think you may have misunderstood my message.
>>I was
>>  >>   not
>>  >>saying
>>  >>   there were concordances in the CNRS edition of
>>  Vieux
>>  >>   Gaultier
>>  >>that
>>  >>   definitely linked pieces in Herbert to the proper
>>  Gaultier.
>>  >>  I
>>  >>said
>>  >>   that one could easily identify the style of music
>>  in that
>>  >>   edition
>>  >>and
>>  >>   compare to the sparse style of the Herbert pieces
>>  attributed
>>  >>   to
>>  >>   Gaultier. From a player's point of view, I feel
>>  a very
>>  >>   strong
>>  >>   similarity, and 

[LUTE] Re: Cherbury lute book

[Matteo Turri]

   Apropos recordings of (pieces from) the manuscript:

   Jacques Le Polonois : Pièces de luth   (AEvitas AE-12157,  December
   2015)

   [1]https://www.discogs.com/Various-Jacques-Le-Polonois-Pièces-
   de-luth/release/7752681

   by Paul Kieffer has the highest number of recordings from the
   manuscript toghether with the CD of O'Dette.

   Also, according to his site the lutenist Martin Eastwell will issue
   soon a CD of pieces from the MS:

   [2]https://www.martineastwell.com/home/

   Matteo

   --

References

   1. 
https://www.discogs.com/Various-Jacques-Le-Polonois-Pièces-de-luth/release/7752681
   2. https://www.martineastwell.com/home/


To get on or off this list see list information at
http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html

[LUTE] Re: Cherbury lute book

[Alain Veylit]

: the pieces by Jacob Polonois, the very unique ones by Hely 
Cuthbert, as well as some gems such as Gautier's Adieu Courant, 
Despond's Filou, pieces by Bacheler, etc. etc.  That manuscript is 
uniquely European in nature and it can therefore elicit interest and 
help from many angles and sources.


I am personally wary of a single printed edition - even if I recognize 
the unique advantages of the book format - and I would prefer to see it 
as a living and evolving project including a print copy (on non-acidic 
paper). Robert Spencer's facsimile editions in the 1980s were absolutely 
fundamental to the Early music revival movement. Those editions relied 
on new technology at the time, and I am convinced that were he to live 
today, Robert Spencer would be thrilled at all the new developments in 
publishing and looking at ways of using them efficiently and in novel 
ways. We cannot redo his job, we should further it and push it forward.


By the way, congratulations to the Cambridge digital editions - I was 
under the impression that the Cherbury book would be following on the 
Holmes MS but it does not seem to be the case...


Sorry if I was a tad long on the topic. If curious, you can check 
http://fandango.musickshandmade.com/projects/view/2. For the authors and 
pieces indexes you will need a free account to the site.


Alain








dn 02/01/2018 11:05 AM, Nancy Carlin wrote:

purchasing the print   Yes, I was the LSA's 2nd Microfilm Librarian back 
starting c1975, and I and gi
have a number of binders with paper copies made from films. Now if you
want a black and white, readable version of Cherbury you can find it on
Sarge Gerbode's website, but there are no concordances and you have to
have a table, play from your computer screen or print it out.
Meanwhile for those who love films and digital versions of lute music,
plans are afoot for the whole LSA Microfilm Library to be digitized and
available in the Members Only section of our website. If things go on
schedule it could happen this Spring.
Nancy

Dear Nancy,
Many years ago the only way to obtain copies of many of these MSs was
to pay for a microfilm copy which the collections often then seemed
willing to make. Some 20/30 years ago the late, and much missed, Donald
Gill gave me a photocopy of Cherbury printed from such a microfilm.
Legibility is not good but is quite passable under decent illumination.
My point in mentioning this is that if a decent facsimile is not
forthcoming shortly, then players could always explore this
possibility. When I archived Donald's collection I didn't find this
microfilm so presumably he borrowed a microfilm - perhaps from the Lute
Society or Lute Society of America
regards
Martyn
PS I also very much agree with Ron: I find paper copies superior to
trying to read these things from a screen - also with the added
advantage that I can turn corners over to mark pieces I find
particularly notable and can pencil concordances and other observations
in the margins.  M.
  __

From: Nancy Carlin [1]<na...@nancycarlinassociates.com>
To: Ron Andrico [2]<praelu...@hotmail.com>; [3]"lute...@aol.com"
[4]<lute...@aol.com>; [5]"lute@cs.dartmouth.edu"
[6]<lute@cs.dartmouth.edu>
Sent: Wednesday, 31 January 2018, 18:54
Subject: [LUTE] Re: Cherbury lute book
Chris,
I agree with Ron. I use both digital and book format music and have
been
waiting to buy the Cherbury ms since I first heard about it. I am
especially interested in the noes and concordances.
Nancy
>Dear Chris:
>
>I'm writing in response to Hector's lute list posting on the
subject of
>the Herbert facsimile under consideration for publication.  I
would buy
>the Lute Society facsimile edition, and would actively encourage
others
>to do so as well.
>
>There is a certain misconception that, because pdf facsimiles may
be
>readily available from libraries, there is no longer a need for,
nor a
>demand for, good quality printed editions of lute music.  I have
>observed that while lute players love to collect music, and also
love
>to get free music, there is simply no replacement for a
well-designed
>printed edition that includes essays on historical background and
>concordances.
>
>I'll wager that most downloaded facsimile editions are simply
archived
>on hard drives and remain there unused.  And as much as
technophiles
>love to tout the latest i-pad gizmos, nothing can replace real
paper
>music on a music stand.  I'm not the only person who has observed
that
> 

[LUTE] Re: Cherbury lute book

[Dan Winheld]

They are legalizing Marijuana all over the place, come to California if 
you want to get stoned! (I gave up that little distraction decades ago, 
but I also much prefer Ballard). :-D

Dan

On 2/1/2018 5:15 PM, Susan Sandman wrote:

Stoning is medieval, appropriate only hundreds of years before...
Susan
On Thu, Feb 1, 2018 at 6:46 PM Tristan von Neumann
<[1]tristanvonneum...@gmx.de> wrote:

  Do I get stoned by the community if I say that I like Ballard more
  anyway? :)
  Am 02.02.2018 um 00:36 schrieb Jean-Marie Poirier:
  > En guise de conclusion ;-) :
  > If you look at the chronological development of Ennemond's career
  and life, his "his high reputation" as a baroque lute super hero
  simply doesn't hold.
  > So there must be other material around to explain this phenomenon.
  > Cherbury is only one piece in the puzzle and certainly not the
  most interesting one concerning old Ennemond! There is a lot more to
  see and play in at least a dozen other ms. and of course his
  production in accords nouveaux is another essential aspect of the
  problem.
  >
  > Merci de votre intérêt et la "chasse" continue... :-)!
  > Best,
  > Jean-Marie
  >
  >
  >> Le 1 févr. 2018 à 22:53, G. C. <[2]kalei...@gmail.com> a écrit
  :
  >>
  >> PS.
  >> And of course, I meant to say "you and Jean-Marie" SORRY! :D
  >> On Thu, Feb 1, 2018 at 10:27 PM, G. C.
  <[1][3]kalei...@gmail.com> wrote:
  >>
  >>  Great that you feel that way, Ron. I'm just saying, that
  >>   comparing to
  >>  what there is of real quality music for the lute out
  there, and
  >>   trying
  >>  to keep in mind, the "high reputation" of Ennemond
  Gaultier, I'm
  >>   sadly,
  >>  not at all impressed by these alleged simple courantes
  and voltas
  >>   in
  >>  Cherbury. Whatever his fame might otherwise be,
  these little
  >>   pieces
  >>  just don't cut the mustard IMHO.
  >>  But if you, as a renowned player, recognise Ennemond's
  style in
  >>   those
  >>  little ditties, I'm definitely not going to argue. :)
  >>  Best
  >>  G
  >>  On Thu, Feb 1, 2018 at 10:09 PM, Ron Andrico
  >>   <[1][2][4]praelu...@hotmail.com>
  >>  wrote:
  >>   G, I think you may have misunderstood my message.
I was
  >>   not
  >>saying
  >>   there were concordances in the CNRS edition of
  Vieux
  >>   Gaultier
  >>that
  >>   definitely linked pieces in Herbert to the proper
  Gaultier.
  >>  I
  >>said
  >>   that one could easily identify the style of music
  in that
  >>   edition
  >>and
  >>   compare to the sparse style of the Herbert pieces
  attributed
  >>   to
  >>   Gaultier. From a player's point of view, I feel
  a very
  >>   strong
  >>   similarity, and one only has to supply ornamented
  repeats in
  >>   the
  >>proper
  >>   style to flesh out the bones of these pieces and
  make some
  >>   very
  >>fine
  >>   music.
  >>   RA
  >>  --
  >>   References
  >>  1. mailto:[3][5]praelu...@hotmail.com
  >>   To get on or off this list see list information at
  >>
  [4][6]http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html
  >>
  >> --
  >>
  >> References
  >>
  >> 1. mailto:[7]kalei...@gmail.com
  >> 2. mailto:[8]praelu...@hotmail.com
  >> 3. mailto:[9]praelu...@hotmail.com
  >> 4. [10]http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html
  >>
  >
  >
  >
  >

--

References

1. mailto:tristanvonneum...@gmx.de
2. mailto:kalei...@gmail.com
3. mailto:kalei...@gmail.com
4. mailto:praelu...@hotmail.com
5. mailto:praelu...@hotmail.com
6. http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html
7. mailto:kalei...@gmail.com
8. mailto:praelu...@hotmail.com
9. mailto:praelu...@hotmail.com
   10. http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html

[LUTE] Re: Cherbury lute book

[Susan Sandman]

   Stoning is medieval, appropriate only hundreds of years before...
   Susan
   On Thu, Feb 1, 2018 at 6:46 PM Tristan von Neumann
   <[1]tristanvonneum...@gmx.de> wrote:

 Do I get stoned by the community if I say that I like Ballard more
 anyway? :)
 Am 02.02.2018 um 00:36 schrieb Jean-Marie Poirier:
 > En guise de conclusion ;-) :
 > If you look at the chronological development of Ennemond's career
 and life, his "his high reputation" as a baroque lute super hero
 simply doesn't hold.
 > So there must be other material around to explain this phenomenon.
 > Cherbury is only one piece in the puzzle and certainly not the
 most interesting one concerning old Ennemond! There is a lot more to
 see and play in at least a dozen other ms. and of course his
 production in accords nouveaux is another essential aspect of the
 problem.
 >
 > Merci de votre intérêt et la "chasse" continue... :-)!
 > Best,
 > Jean-Marie
 >
 >
 >> Le 1 févr. 2018 à 22:53, G. C. <[2]kalei...@gmail.com> a écrit
 :
 >>
 >> PS.
 >> And of course, I meant to say "you and Jean-Marie" SORRY! :D
 >> On Thu, Feb 1, 2018 at 10:27 PM, G. C.
 <[1][3]kalei...@gmail.com> wrote:
 >>
 >>  Great that you feel that way, Ron. I'm just saying, that
 >>   comparing to
 >>  what there is of real quality music for the lute out
 there, and
 >>   trying
 >>  to keep in mind, the "high reputation" of Ennemond
 Gaultier, I'm
 >>   sadly,
 >>  not at all impressed by these alleged simple courantes
 and voltas
 >>   in
 >>  Cherbury. Whatever his fame might otherwise be,
 these little
 >>   pieces
 >>  just don't cut the mustard IMHO.
 >>  But if you, as a renowned player, recognise Ennemond's
 style in
 >>   those
 >>  little ditties, I'm definitely not going to argue. :)
 >>  Best
 >>  G
 >>  On Thu, Feb 1, 2018 at 10:09 PM, Ron Andrico
 >>   <[1][2][4]praelu...@hotmail.com>
 >>  wrote:
 >>   G, I think you may have misunderstood my message.
   I was
 >>   not
 >>saying
 >>   there were concordances in the CNRS edition of
 Vieux
 >>   Gaultier
 >>that
 >>   definitely linked pieces in Herbert to the proper
 Gaultier.
 >>  I
 >>said
 >>   that one could easily identify the style of music
 in that
 >>   edition
 >>and
 >>   compare to the sparse style of the Herbert pieces
 attributed
 >>   to
 >>   Gaultier. From a player's point of view, I feel
 a very
 >>   strong
 >>   similarity, and one only has to supply ornamented
 repeats in
 >>   the
 >>proper
 >>   style to flesh out the bones of these pieces and
 make some
 >>   very
 >>fine
 >>   music.
 >>   RA
 >>  --
 >>   References
 >>  1. mailto:[3][5]praelu...@hotmail.com
 >>   To get on or off this list see list information at
 >>
 [4][6]http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html
 >>
 >> --
 >>
 >> References
 >>
 >> 1. mailto:[7]kalei...@gmail.com
 >> 2. mailto:[8]praelu...@hotmail.com
 >> 3. mailto:[9]praelu...@hotmail.com
 >> 4. [10]http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html
 >>
 >
 >
 >
 >

   --

References

   1. mailto:tristanvonneum...@gmx.de
   2. mailto:kalei...@gmail.com
   3. mailto:kalei...@gmail.com
   4. mailto:praelu...@hotmail.com
   5. mailto:praelu...@hotmail.com
   6. http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html
   7. mailto:kalei...@gmail.com
   8. mailto:praelu...@hotmail.com
   9. mailto:praelu...@hotmail.com
  10. http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html

[LUTE] Re: Cherbury lute book

[Tristan von Neumann]

Do I get stoned by the community if I say that I like Ballard more 
anyway? :)


Am 02.02.2018 um 00:36 schrieb Jean-Marie Poirier:

En guise de conclusion ;-) :
If you look at the chronological development of Ennemond’s career and life, his 
“his high reputation” as a baroque lute super hero simply doesn’t hold.
So there must be other material around to explain this phenomenon.
Cherbury is only one piece in the puzzle and certainly not the most interesting 
one concerning old Ennemond! There is a lot more to see and play in at least a 
dozen other ms. and of course his production in accords nouveaux is another 
essential aspect of the problem.

Merci de votre intérêt et la “chasse” continue... :-)!
Best,
Jean-Marie



Le 1 févr. 2018 à 22:53, G. C.  a écrit :

   PS.
   And of course, I meant to say "you and Jean-Marie" SORRY! :D
   On Thu, Feb 1, 2018 at 10:27 PM, G. C. <[1]kalei...@gmail.com> wrote:

Great that you feel that way, Ron. I'm just saying, that
 comparing to
what there is of real quality music for the lute out there, and
 trying
to keep in mind, the "high reputation" of Ennemond Gaultier, I'm
 sadly,
not at all impressed by these alleged simple courantes and voltas
 in
Cherbury.Whatever his fame might otherwise be, these little
 pieces
just don't cut the mustard IMHO.
But if you, as a renowned player, recognise Ennemond's style in
 those
little ditties, I'm definitely not going to argue. :)
Best
G
On Thu, Feb 1, 2018 at 10:09 PM, Ron Andrico
 <[1][2]praelu...@hotmail.com>
wrote:
 G, I think you may have misunderstood my message.I was
 not
  saying
 there were concordances in the CNRS edition of Vieux
 Gaultier
  that
 definitely linked pieces in Herbert to the proper Gaultier.
I
  said
 that one could easily identify the style of music in that
 edition
  and
 compare to the sparse style of the Herbert pieces attributed
 to
 Gaultier.From a player's point of view, I feel a very
 strong
 similarity, and one only has to supply ornamented repeats in
 the
  proper
 style to flesh out the bones of these pieces and make some
 very
  fine
 music.
 RA
--
 References
1. mailto:[3]praelu...@hotmail.com
 To get on or off this list see list information at
 [4]http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html

   --

References

   1. mailto:kalei...@gmail.com
   2. mailto:praelu...@hotmail.com
   3. mailto:praelu...@hotmail.com
   4. http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html

[LUTE] Re: Cherbury lute book

[Jean-Marie Poirier]

En guise de conclusion ;-) :
If you look at the chronological development of Ennemond’s career and life, his 
“his high reputation” as a baroque lute super hero simply doesn’t hold. 
So there must be other material around to explain this phenomenon. 
Cherbury is only one piece in the puzzle and certainly not the most interesting 
one concerning old Ennemond! There is a lot more to see and play in at least a 
dozen other ms. and of course his production in accords nouveaux is another 
essential aspect of the problem.

Merci de votre intérêt et la “chasse” continue... :-)!
Best,
Jean-Marie


> Le 1 févr. 2018 à 22:53, G. C.  a écrit :
> 
>   PS.
>   And of course, I meant to say "you and Jean-Marie" SORRY! :D
>   On Thu, Feb 1, 2018 at 10:27 PM, G. C. <[1]kalei...@gmail.com> wrote:
> 
>Great that you feel that way, Ron. I'm just saying, that
> comparing to
>what there is of real quality music for the lute out there, and
> trying
>to keep in mind, the "high reputation" of Ennemond Gaultier, I'm
> sadly,
>not at all impressed by these alleged simple courantes and voltas
> in
>Cherbury.Whatever his fame might otherwise be, these little
> pieces
>just don't cut the mustard IMHO.
>But if you, as a renowned player, recognise Ennemond's style in
> those
>little ditties, I'm definitely not going to argue. :)
>Best
>G
>On Thu, Feb 1, 2018 at 10:09 PM, Ron Andrico
> <[1][2]praelu...@hotmail.com>
>wrote:
> G, I think you may have misunderstood my message.I was
> not
>  saying
> there were concordances in the CNRS edition of Vieux
> Gaultier
>  that
> definitely linked pieces in Herbert to the proper Gaultier.
>I
>  said
> that one could easily identify the style of music in that
> edition
>  and
> compare to the sparse style of the Herbert pieces attributed
> to
> Gaultier.From a player's point of view, I feel a very
> strong
> similarity, and one only has to supply ornamented repeats in
> the
>  proper
> style to flesh out the bones of these pieces and make some
> very
>  fine
> music.
> RA
>--
> References
>1. mailto:[3]praelu...@hotmail.com
> To get on or off this list see list information at
> [4]http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html
> 
>   --
> 
> References
> 
>   1. mailto:kalei...@gmail.com
>   2. mailto:praelu...@hotmail.com
>   3. mailto:praelu...@hotmail.com
>   4. http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html
> 

[LUTE] Re: Cherbury lute book

[Jean-Marie Poirier]

:-) ! 

> Le 1 févr. 2018 à 22:53, G. C.  a écrit :
> 
>   PS.
>   And of course, I meant to say "you and Jean-Marie" SORRY! :D
>   On Thu, Feb 1, 2018 at 10:27 PM, G. C. <[1]kalei...@gmail.com> wrote:
> 
>Great that you feel that way, Ron. I'm just saying, that
> comparing to
>what there is of real quality music for the lute out there, and
> trying
>to keep in mind, the "high reputation" of Ennemond Gaultier, I'm
> sadly,
>not at all impressed by these alleged simple courantes and voltas
> in
>Cherbury.Whatever his fame might otherwise be, these little
> pieces
>just don't cut the mustard IMHO.
>But if you, as a renowned player, recognise Ennemond's style in
> those
>little ditties, I'm definitely not going to argue. :)
>Best
>G
>On Thu, Feb 1, 2018 at 10:09 PM, Ron Andrico
> <[1][2]praelu...@hotmail.com>
>wrote:
> G, I think you may have misunderstood my message.I was
> not
>  saying
> there were concordances in the CNRS edition of Vieux
> Gaultier
>  that
> definitely linked pieces in Herbert to the proper Gaultier.
>I
>  said
> that one could easily identify the style of music in that
> edition
>  and
> compare to the sparse style of the Herbert pieces attributed
> to
> Gaultier.From a player's point of view, I feel a very
> strong
> similarity, and one only has to supply ornamented repeats in
> the
>  proper
> style to flesh out the bones of these pieces and make some
> very
>  fine
> music.
> RA
>--
> References
>1. mailto:[3]praelu...@hotmail.com
> To get on or off this list see list information at
> [4]http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html
> 
>   --
> 
> References
> 
>   1. mailto:kalei...@gmail.com
>   2. mailto:praelu...@hotmail.com
>   3. mailto:praelu...@hotmail.com
>   4. http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html
> 

[LUTE] Re: Cherbury lute book

[G. C.]

   PS.
   And of course, I meant to say "you and Jean-Marie" SORRY! :D
   On Thu, Feb 1, 2018 at 10:27 PM, G. C. <[1]kalei...@gmail.com> wrote:

Great that you feel that way, Ron. I'm just saying, that
 comparing to
what there is of real quality music for the lute out there, and
 trying
to keep in mind, the "high reputation" of Ennemond Gaultier, I'm
 sadly,
not at all impressed by these alleged simple courantes and voltas
 in
Cherbury.Whatever his fame might otherwise be, these little
 pieces
just don't cut the mustard IMHO.
But if you, as a renowned player, recognise Ennemond's style in
 those
little ditties, I'm definitely not going to argue. :)
Best
G
On Thu, Feb 1, 2018 at 10:09 PM, Ron Andrico
 <[1][2]praelu...@hotmail.com>
wrote:
 G, I think you may have misunderstood my message.I was
 not
  saying
 there were concordances in the CNRS edition of Vieux
 Gaultier
  that
 definitely linked pieces in Herbert to the proper Gaultier.
I
  said
 that one could easily identify the style of music in that
 edition
  and
 compare to the sparse style of the Herbert pieces attributed
 to
 Gaultier.From a player's point of view, I feel a very
 strong
 similarity, and one only has to supply ornamented repeats in
 the
  proper
 style to flesh out the bones of these pieces and make some
 very
  fine
 music.
 RA
--
 References
1. mailto:[3]praelu...@hotmail.com
 To get on or off this list see list information at
 [4]http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html

   --

References

   1. mailto:kalei...@gmail.com
   2. mailto:praelu...@hotmail.com
   3. mailto:praelu...@hotmail.com
   4. http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html

[LUTE] Re: Cherbury lute book

[G. C.]

   Great that you feel that way, Ron. I'm just saying, that comparing to
   what there is of real quality music for the lute out there, and trying
   to keep in mind, the "high reputation" of Ennemond Gaultier, I'm sadly,
   not at all impressed by these alleged simple courantes and voltas in
   Cherbury.   Whatever his fame might otherwise be, these little pieces
   just don't cut the mustard IMHO.
   But if you, as a renowned player, recognise Ennemond's style in those
   little ditties, I'm definitely not going to argue. :)
   Best
   G
   On Thu, Feb 1, 2018 at 10:09 PM, Ron Andrico <[1]praelu...@hotmail.com>
   wrote:

G, I think you may have misunderstood my message.   I was not
 saying
there were concordances in the CNRS edition of Vieux Gaultier
 that
definitely linked pieces in Herbert to the proper Gaultier.   I
 said
that one could easily identify the style of music in that edition
 and
compare to the sparse style of the Herbert pieces attributed to
Gaultier.   From a player's point of view, I feel a very strong
similarity, and one only has to supply ornamented repeats in the
 proper
style to flesh out the bones of these pieces and make some very
 fine
music.
RA

   --

References

   1. mailto:praelu...@hotmail.com


To get on or off this list see list information at
http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html

[LUTE] Re: Cherbury lute book

[G. C.]

   Thanks a lot Peter!
   and for all your work. Fantastic!
   In this matter, I still register / The following numbers apply:
   88-no concordances
   101-no concordances
   102-no concordances
   107-2 concordances
   109-no concordances
   119-no concordance
   120-2 concordances
   127-2 concordances
   128-many concordances (!)
   130-no concordances
   131-no concordances
   160-no concordances
   163-no concordances
   164-a few concordances
   177-2 concordances
   179-no concordances
   196-no concordances
   202-no concordances
   203-no concordances
   205-2 concordances
   238-no concordances
   The numbers (kind of) speak for themselves, don't you think?
   Best
   G.
   On Thu, Feb 1, 2018 at 9:14 PM, Petrus Paulus Maria Steur
   <[1]p.st...@inrim.it> wrote:

Dear all,
some of you might have a look at my enlarged website
 [1][2]mss.slweiss.de
where the Cherbury is already present with a lot of concordances
(hopefully all correct).
Peter Steur

   --

References

   1. mailto:p.st...@inrim.it
   2. http://mss.slweiss.de/


To get on or off this list see list information at
http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html

[LUTE] Re: Cherbury lute book

[Jean-Marie Poirier]

That would be marvelous indeed !

Best wishes,

Jean-Marie

> Le 1 févr. 2018 à 20:05, Nancy Carlin <na...@nancycarlinassociates.com> a 
> écrit :
> 
>   Yes, I was the LSA's 2nd Microfilm Librarian back starting c1975, and I
>   have a number of binders with paper copies made from films. Now if you
>   want a black and white, readable version of Cherbury you can find it on
>   Sarge Gerbode's website, but there are no concordances and you have to
>   have a table, play from your computer screen or print it out.
>   Meanwhile for those who love films and digital versions of lute music,
>   plans are afoot for the whole LSA Microfilm Library to be digitized and
>   available in the Members Only section of our website. If things go on
>   schedule it could happen this Spring.
>   Nancy
> 
>   Dear Nancy,
>   Many years ago the only way to obtain copies of many of these MSs was
>   to pay for a microfilm copy which the collections often then seemed
>   willing to make. Some 20/30 years ago the late, and much missed, Donald
>   Gill gave me a photocopy of Cherbury printed from such a microfilm.
>   Legibility is not good but is quite passable under decent illumination.
>   My point in mentioning this is that if a decent facsimile is not
>   forthcoming shortly, then players could always explore this
>   possibility. When I archived Donald's collection I didn't find this
>   microfilm so presumably he borrowed a microfilm - perhaps from the Lute
>   Society or Lute Society of America
>   regards
>   Martyn
>   PS I also very much agree with Ron: I find paper copies superior to
>   trying to read these things from a screen - also with the added
>   advantage that I can turn corners over to mark pieces I find
>   particularly notable and can pencil concordances and other observations
>   in the margins.  M.
> __
> 
>   From: Nancy Carlin [1]<na...@nancycarlinassociates.com>
>   To: Ron Andrico [2]<praelu...@hotmail.com>; [3]"lute...@aol.com"
>   [4]<lute...@aol.com>; [5]"lute@cs.dartmouth.edu"
>   [6]<lute@cs.dartmouth.edu>
>   Sent: Wednesday, 31 January 2018, 18:54
>   Subject: [LUTE] Re: Cherbury lute book
>   Chris,
>   I agree with Ron. I use both digital and book format music and have
>   been
>   waiting to buy the Cherbury ms since I first heard about it. I am
>   especially interested in the noes and concordances.
>   Nancy
>>   Dear Chris:
>> 
>>   I'm writing in response to Hector's lute list posting on the
>   subject of
>>   the Herbert facsimile under consideration for publication.  I
>   would buy
>>   the Lute Society facsimile edition, and would actively encourage
>   others
>>   to do so as well.
>> 
>>   There is a certain misconception that, because pdf facsimiles may
>   be
>>   readily available from libraries, there is no longer a need for,
>   nor a
>>   demand for, good quality printed editions of lute music.  I have
>>   observed that while lute players love to collect music, and also
>   love
>>   to get free music, there is simply no replacement for a
>   well-designed
>>   printed edition that includes essays on historical background and
>>   concordances.
>> 
>>   I'll wager that most downloaded facsimile editions are simply
>   archived
>>   on hard drives and remain there unused.  And as much as
>   technophiles
>>   love to tout the latest i-pad gizmos, nothing can replace real
>   paper
>>   music on a music stand.  I'm not the only person who has observed
>   that
>>   information from a printed page is mentally processed much more
>>   effectively than information on a backlit screen.
>> 
>>   Yes, please do what is necessary to advance the Herbert facsimile
>>   project.
>> 
>>   Best wishes,
>> 
>>   Ron
>> 
>   __
>> 
>>   From: [7]lute-...@cs.dartmouth.edu <[8]lute-...@cs.dartmouth.edu>
>   on behalf
>>   of Hector Sequera <[9]hectorl...@mac.com>
>>   Sent: Wednesday, January 31, 2018 1:55 PM
>>   To: [10]lute@cs.dartmouth.edu
>>   Subject: [LUTE] Re: Cherbury lute book
>> 
>>   Good afternoon,
>>   In reply to the original question, the Lute Society just sent an
>   email
>>   to its membership to assess whether or not there is any interest
>   on
>>   this. Your reply to the message below may determine the fate of
>   this
>>   project. If interested simply reply to the secretary at:
>>   [11]lute...@aol.com <[1]mailto:[12]lute...@aol

[LUTE] Re: Cherbury lute book

[Jean-Marie Poirier]

   Thank you for you excellent and very useful work Peter!

   All the best,

   Jean-Marie Poirier

   Le 1 févr. 2018 à 21:14, Petrus Paulus Maria Steur
   <[1]p.st...@inrim.it> a écrit :

   Dear all,
   some of you might have a look at my enlarged website [2]mss.slweiss.de
   where the Cherbury is already present with a lot of concordances
   (hopefully all correct).
   Peter Steur
   Mail priva di virus. [3]www.avg.com
   2018-02-01 21:00 GMT+01:00 Jean-Marie Poirier
   <[4]jmpoiri...@wanadoo.fr>:

 Dear Göran,
 There is already quite a bit of work done by John H. Robinson
 regarding a number of pieces by Gaultier. It was the subject of
 a publication for the Lute Society back in 1997, a music supplement
 entitled Music in Vieil Ton by Gauthier. Not everything is there
 but it's a good starting point !
 To complete a recording I have done recently, I will publish a
 collection of the pieces in old tuning in the near future (for
 Corentto Verlag in Stuttgart)
 and, of course, I will try to give a few more concordances whenever
 possible. It takes time, as you know too well !
 In the meanwhile, here is a little video of a Preludium, anonymous
 but in a source where the Gaultier's pieces abound (Swan ms.) and
 a "Courrente Gautier" which appears in several European manuscripts
 of the 1620s or 30s...
 [5]https://youtu.be/-TNndX7KcUs
 All the best,
 Jean-Marie
 --
 >   Dear Jean Marie,
 >   I beg to differ about the quality of these little sketches, but
 look
 >   forward to an informed edition with the "motorized" versions. In
 the
 >   meantime it would be helpful with a concordance list for these
 short
 >   Gaultier pieces in the old tuning.
 >   Best wishes
 >   G.
 >   On Thu, Feb 1, 2018 at 2:03 PM, Jean-Marie Poirier
 >   <[1][6]jmpoiri...@wanadoo.fr> wrote:
 >
 > Dear Gà�ran,
 > I do certainly lean towards Ennemond, and most probably not
 Jacques,
 > as Cherbury did not support the latter after he sought refuge
 in
 > England to escape the King's justice and a certain death for
 the
 > murder of a noble man in France ! Sorry Thurston ;-) !
 > In my recent article in the Lute 2014, (English Lute Society)
 which
 > can also be downloaded from Academia
 > ([2][7]https://tinyurl.com/ydze2e2g)
 > there is a note   (19) about this question, and I am grateful
 to
 > Chris Goodwin for bringning this to my attention :
 > "Franà�ois-Pierre Goy pointed out in a lecture to the Lute
 Society
 > that Herbert was indeed
 > involved as ambassador in France in negotiations about Jacques
 > Gaultier's extradition, but
 > we have no proof that he personally knew him and, as he writes
 in a
 > letter that the lutenist
 > fled to England à �for haveing killed a brave French Gentleman
 and of
 > a noble house in a most
 > base fashion', he may not even have wished to be acquainted
 with a
 > man for whom he must
 > have felt a deep contempt (Lute News, forthcoming). This may
 be a
 > good reason to suppose
 > that Lord Herbert would not have made an effort to collect
 Jacques
 > Gaultier's music."
 > If some of the pieces by "Gauthier" in the Cherbury Book can
 be
 > regraded as "pedestrian", an opinion which I do not share ;-),
 don't
 > forget that most of them can be found in other maunscripts in
 Europe
 > and often with divisions in the repeats which indeed help to
 > "motorize" them !
 >  All the best,
 > Jean-Marie
 > --
 > >When looking at the Gaultier pieces in Cherbury, I recall
 a
 > recent
 > >discussion on the possibility of these being by Ennemond
 in
 > vieil ton.
 > >All these pieces are very short and I must say rather
 > pedestrian, and
 > >not indicative of the great fame of Ennemond. Thurston
 Dart in
 > his 1957
 > >article leans quite firmly toward Jacques d'Angleterre
 being
 > the
 > >Gaultier in question. Would those having delved more
 deeply
 > into these
 > >pieces and their "style" agree?
 > >G.
 >
 >   >
 >   >--
 >   >
 >   >
 >   >To get on or off this list see list information at
 >   >[3][8]http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html
 >
 >   --
 >
 >References
 >
 >   1. mailto:[9]jmpoiri...@wanadoo.fr
 >   2. [10]https://tinyurl.com/ydze2e2g
 >   3. [11]http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html
 >

   --

References

   Visible links
   1. 

[LUTE] Re: Cherbury lute book

[Petrus Paulus Maria Steur]

   Dear all,
   some of you might have a look at my enlarged website [1]mss.slweiss.de
   where the Cherbury is already present with a lot of concordances
   (hopefully all correct).
   Peter Steur

   Mail priva di virus. [2]www.avg.com

   2018-02-01 21:00 GMT+01:00 Jean-Marie Poirier
   <[3]jmpoiri...@wanadoo.fr>:

 Dear Göran,
 There is already quite a bit of work done by John H. Robinson
 regarding a number of pieces by Gaultier. It was the subject of
 a publication for the Lute Society back in 1997, a music supplement
 entitled Music in Vieil Ton by Gauthier. Not everything is there
 but it's a good starting point !
 To complete a recording I have done recently, I will publish a
 collection of the pieces in old tuning in the near future (for
 Corentto Verlag in Stuttgart)
 and, of course, I will try to give a few more concordances whenever
 possible. It takes time, as you know too well !
 In the meanwhile, here is a little video of a Preludium, anonymous
 but in a source where the Gaultier's pieces abound (Swan ms.) and
 a "Courrente Gautier" which appears in several European manuscripts
 of the 1620s or 30s...
 [4]https://youtu.be/-TNndX7KcUs
 All the best,
 Jean-Marie
 --
 >Dear Jean Marie,
 >I beg to differ about the quality of these little sketches, but
 look
 >forward to an informed edition with the "motorized" versions.
 In the
 >meantime it would be helpful with a concordance list for these
 short
 >Gaultier pieces in the old tuning.
 >Best wishes
 >G.
 >On Thu, Feb 1, 2018 at 2:03 PM, Jean-Marie Poirier
 ><[1][5]jmpoiri...@wanadoo.fr> wrote:
 >
 >  Dear GÃÆÃ ¶ran,
 >  I do certainly lean towards Ennemond, and most probably not
 Jacques,
 >  as Cherbury did not support the latter after he sought refuge
 in
 >  England to escape the King's justice and a certain death for
 the
 >  murder of a noble man in France ! Sorry Thurston ;-) !
 >  In my recent article in the Lute 2014, (English Lute Society)
 which
 >  can also be downloaded from Academia
 >  ([2][6]https://tinyurl.com/ydze2e2g)
 >  there is a note(19) about this question, and I am
 grateful to
 >  Chris Goodwin for bringning this to my attention :
 >  "FranÃÆÃ §ois-Pierre Goy pointed out in a lecture to the Lute
 Society
 >  that Herbert was indeed
 >  involved as ambassador in France in negotiations about
 Jacques
 >  Gaultier's extradition, but
 >  we have no proof that he personally knew him and, as he
 writes in a
 >  letter that the lutenist
 >  fled to England à ¢for haveing killed a brave French
 Gentleman and of
 >  a noble house in a most
 >  base fashion', he may not even have wished to be acquainted
 with a
 >  man for whom he must
 >  have felt a deep contempt (Lute News, forthcoming). This may
 be a
 >  good reason to suppose
 >  that Lord Herbert would not have made an effort to collect
 Jacques
 >  Gaultier's music."
 >  If some of the pieces by "Gauthier" in the Cherbury Book can
 be
 >  regraded as "pedestrian", an opinion which I do not share
 ;-), don't
 >  forget that most of them can be found in other maunscripts in
 Europe
 >  and often with divisions in the repeats which indeed help to
 >  "motorize" them !
 >   All the best,
 >  Jean-Marie
 >  --
 >  > When looking at the Gaultier pieces in Cherbury, I
 recall a
 >  recent
 >  > discussion on the possibility of these being by
 Ennemond in
 >  vieil ton.
 >  > All these pieces are very short and I must say rather
 >  pedestrian, and
 >  > not indicative of the great fame of Ennemond. Thurston
 Dart in
 >  his 1957
 >  > article leans quite firmly toward Jacques d'Angleterre
 being
 >  the
 >  > Gaultier in question. Would those having delved more
 deeply
 >  into these
 >  > pieces and their "style" agree?
 >  > G.
 >
 >>
 >> --
 >>
 >>
 >>To get on or off this list see list information at
 >>[3][7]http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html
 >
 >--
 >
 >References
 >
 >1. mailto:[8]jmpoiri...@wanadoo.fr
 >2. [9]https://tinyurl.com/ydze2e2g
 >3. [10]http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html
 >

   --

References

   Visible links
   1. http://mss.slweiss.de/
   2. 
http://www.avg.com/email-signature?utm_medium=email_source=link_campaign=sig-email_content=webmail

[LUTE] Re: Cherbury lute book

[Jean-Marie Poirier]

Dear Göran,

There is already quite a bit of work done by John H. Robinson regarding a 
number of pieces by Gaultier. It was the subject of
a publication for the Lute Society back in 1997, a music supplement entitled 
Music in Vieil Ton by Gauthier. Not everything is there
but it's a good starting point !

To complete a recording I have done recently, I will publish a collection of 
the pieces in old tuning in the near future (for Corentto Verlag in Stuttgart) 
and, of course, I will try to give a few more concordances whenever possible. 
It takes time, as you know too well !

In the meanwhile, here is a little video of a Preludium, anonymous but in a 
source where the Gaultier's pieces abound (Swan ms.) and 
a "Courrente Gautier" which appears in several European manuscripts of the 
1620s or 30s... 
https://youtu.be/-TNndX7KcUs

All the best,

Jean-Marie

--
 
>   Dear Jean Marie,
>   I beg to differ about the quality of these little sketches, but look
>   forward to an informed edition with the "motorized" versions. In the
>   meantime it would be helpful with a concordance list for these short
>   Gaultier pieces in the old tuning.
>   Best wishes
>   G.
>   On Thu, Feb 1, 2018 at 2:03 PM, Jean-Marie Poirier
>   <[1]jmpoiri...@wanadoo.fr> wrote:
>
> Dear Göran,
> I do certainly lean towards Ennemond, and most probably not Jacques,
> as Cherbury did not support the latter after he sought refuge in
> England to escape the King's justice and a certain death for the
> murder of a noble man in France ! Sorry Thurston ;-) !
> In my recent article in the Lute 2014, (English Lute Society) which
> can also be downloaded from Academia
> ([2]https://tinyurl.com/ydze2e2g)
> there is a note   (19) about this question, and I am grateful to
> Chris Goodwin for bringning this to my attention :
> "François-Pierre Goy pointed out in a lecture to the Lute Society
> that Herbert was indeed
> involved as ambassador in France in negotiations about Jacques
> Gaultier's extradition, but
> we have no proof that he personally knew him and, as he writes in a
> letter that the lutenist
> fled to England âfor haveing killed a brave French Gentleman and of
> a noble house in a most
> base fashion', he may not even have wished to be acquainted with a
> man for whom he must
> have felt a deep contempt (Lute News, forthcoming). This may be a
> good reason to suppose
> that Lord Herbert would not have made an effort to collect Jacques
> Gaultier's music."
> If some of the pieces by "Gauthier" in the Cherbury Book can be
> regraded as "pedestrian", an opinion which I do not share ;-), don't
> forget that most of them can be found in other maunscripts in Europe
> and often with divisions in the repeats which indeed help to
> "motorize" them !
>  All the best,
> Jean-Marie
> --
> >When looking at the Gaultier pieces in Cherbury, I recall a
> recent
> >discussion on the possibility of these being by Ennemond in
> vieil ton.
> >All these pieces are very short and I must say rather
> pedestrian, and
> >not indicative of the great fame of Ennemond. Thurston Dart in
> his 1957
> >article leans quite firmly toward Jacques d'Angleterre being
> the
> >Gaultier in question. Would those having delved more deeply
> into these
> >pieces and their "style" agree?
> >G.
>
>   >
>   >--
>   >
>   >
>   >To get on or off this list see list information at
>   >[3]http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html
>
>   --
>
>References
>
>   1. mailto:jmpoiri...@wanadoo.fr
>   2. https://tinyurl.com/ydze2e2g
>   3. http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html
>

[LUTE] Re: Cherbury lute book

[G. C.]

   Dear Ron,
   I have the 1966 CNRS edition. Nowhere in it, is the L. Herbert
   mentioned,
   other than in the "Table des Sigles". No concordances. Do I have a too
   old edition?
   I find, that the quality of these short pieces in Cherbury are
   unfortunately in no way convincing!
   Kindly enlighten me
   G.
   On Thu, Feb 1, 2018 at 8:14 PM, Ron Andrico <[1]praelu...@hotmail.com>
   wrote:

As I have mentioned before, all one needs to do is examine the
 CNRS
edition of the collected works of Vieux Gaultier for a comparison
 of
style and substance with the pieces by Gaultier in Herbert.
 Although
it is acknowledged that it is very likely the music by Ennemond
surviving in d-minor tuning was adapted from other formats by
 Denis
Gaultier, the music is very sparse and transparent: no virtuoso
technical fireworks.   This only reinforces the fact that the
 music must
come to life through inspired performance that makes much of the
 spaces
between the notes.   This is very essence of the 17th-century
 French
style.
RA

   --

References

   1. mailto:praelu...@hotmail.com


To get on or off this list see list information at
http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html

[LUTE] Re: Cherbury lute book

[G. C.]

   Dear Jean Marie,
   I beg to differ about the quality of these little sketches, but look
   forward to an informed edition with the "motorized" versions. In the
   meantime it would be helpful with a concordance list for these short
   Gaultier pieces in the old tuning.
   Best wishes
   G.
   On Thu, Feb 1, 2018 at 2:03 PM, Jean-Marie Poirier
   <[1]jmpoiri...@wanadoo.fr> wrote:

 Dear Göran,
 I do certainly lean towards Ennemond, and most probably not Jacques,
 as Cherbury did not support the latter after he sought refuge in
 England to escape the King's justice and a certain death for the
 murder of a noble man in France ! Sorry Thurston ;-) !
 In my recent article in the Lute 2014, (English Lute Society) which
 can also be downloaded from Academia
 ([2]https://tinyurl.com/ydze2e2g)
 there is a note   (19) about this question, and I am grateful to
 Chris Goodwin for bringning this to my attention :
 "François-Pierre Goy pointed out in a lecture to the Lute Society
 that Herbert was indeed
 involved as ambassador in France in negotiations about Jacques
 Gaultier's extradition, but
 we have no proof that he personally knew him and, as he writes in a
 letter that the lutenist
 fled to England âfor haveing killed a brave French Gentleman and of
 a noble house in a most
 base fashion', he may not even have wished to be acquainted with a
 man for whom he must
 have felt a deep contempt (Lute News, forthcoming). This may be a
 good reason to suppose
 that Lord Herbert would not have made an effort to collect Jacques
 Gaultier's music."
 If some of the pieces by "Gauthier" in the Cherbury Book can be
 regraded as "pedestrian", an opinion which I do not share ;-), don't
 forget that most of them can be found in other maunscripts in Europe
 and often with divisions in the repeats which indeed help to
 "motorize" them !
  All the best,
 Jean-Marie
 --
 >When looking at the Gaultier pieces in Cherbury, I recall a
 recent
 >discussion on the possibility of these being by Ennemond in
 vieil ton.
 >All these pieces are very short and I must say rather
 pedestrian, and
 >not indicative of the great fame of Ennemond. Thurston Dart in
 his 1957
 >article leans quite firmly toward Jacques d'Angleterre being
 the
 >Gaultier in question. Would those having delved more deeply
 into these
 >pieces and their "style" agree?
 >G.

   >
   >--
   >
   >
   >To get on or off this list see list information at
   >[3]http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html

   --

References

   1. mailto:jmpoiri...@wanadoo.fr
   2. https://tinyurl.com/ydze2e2g
   3. http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html

[LUTE] Re: Cherbury lute book

[Jean-Marie Poirier]

Dear Göran,

I do certainly lean towards Ennemond, and most probably not Jacques, as 
Cherbury did not support the latter after he sought refuge in 
England to escape the King's justice and a certain death for the murder of a 
noble man in France ! Sorry Thurston ;-) !

In my recent article in the Lute 2014, (English Lute Society) which can also be 
downloaded from Academia (https://tinyurl.com/ydze2e2g) 
there is a note  (19) about this question, and I am grateful to Chris Goodwin 
for bringning this to my attention :
"François-Pierre Goy pointed out in a lecture to the Lute Society that Herbert 
was indeed
involved as ambassador in France in negotiations about Jacques Gaultier’s 
extradition, but
we have no proof that he personally knew him and, as he writes in a letter that 
the lutenist
fled to England ‘for haveing killed a brave French Gentleman and of a noble 
house in a most
base fashion’, he may not even have wished to be acquainted with a man for whom 
he must
have felt a deep contempt (Lute News, forthcoming). This may be a good reason 
to suppose
that Lord Herbert would not have made an effort to collect Jacques Gaultier’s 
music."

If some of the pieces by "Gauthier" in the Cherbury Book can be regraded as 
"pedestrian", an opinion which I do not share ;-), don't 
forget that most of them can be found in other maunscripts in Europe and often 
with divisions in the repeats which indeed help to "motorize" them !

 All the best,

Jean-Marie

--
 
>   When looking at the Gaultier pieces in Cherbury, I recall a recent
>   discussion on the possibility of these being by Ennemond in vieil ton.
>   All these pieces are very short and I must say rather pedestrian, and
>   not indicative of the great fame of Ennemond. Thurston Dart in his 1957
>   article leans quite firmly toward Jacques d'Angleterre being the
>   Gaultier in question. Would those having delved more deeply into these
>   pieces and their "style" agree?
>   G.
>
>   --
>
>
>To get on or off this list see list information at
>http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html

[LUTE] Re: Cherbury lute book

[Rainer]

I had the privilege of viewing and handling Dd.2.11 and Dd.5.78.3 in Cambridge.
I went to the library with Ian Harwood who had discovered that Holmes was the 
scribe of these and other manuscripts and was, of course, well known.

I did not have to wear gloves and it was allowed to open the manuscripts in - 
shudder -sunlight.

The back of Dd.2.11 was broken and there was a slip of paper inserted by Ian 
complaining about this.

The state of the manuscripts was surprisingly good - especially Dd.5.78.3.

In this days accessing the originals was the only means to check details, which 
I did for my Holborne edition.

Today, with this fabulous colour facsimile, the situation has changed 
dramatically.

By the way, Ian was wonderful and ridiculously chaotic. The whole house was 
covered with open books and XEROX copies.
In order to eat we had to keep the trays on our knees. There was not a single 
table not covered with more important things like journals, notes, ...

Ah, yes, somewhere there was a cat toilet but unfortunately the cat was very 
shy.

In my eyes Ian was a wonderfully old-fashioned British gentleman.

Rainer

PS: The house had a name: "The old coach house"

PPS: When we went to the railway station I saw a sign reminding of George 
Chapman.
I said that - of course -I didn't know Chapman was born in Hitchin.

Ian said he had asked the local Shakespeare Society if they would try to 
convince the local theatre to perform one of George Chapman's plays.
The answer was George who?

PPS: The weather was bad :)


On 31.01.2018 22:43, Leonard Williams wrote:

I had the honor (privelege?) of viewing and handling the Capirola
Ms at the Newberry in Chicago.  No real special precautions. I had to
fill out an application first, naming another responsible party.  I
wasn't trying to play from it.




To get on or off this list see list information at
http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html

[LUTE] Re: Cherbury lute book

[G. C.]

   When looking at the Gaultier pieces in Cherbury, I recall a recent
   discussion on the possibility of these being by Ennemond in vieil ton.
   All these pieces are very short and I must say rather pedestrian, and
   not indicative of the great fame of Ennemond. Thurston Dart in his 1957
   article leans quite firmly toward Jacques d'Angleterre being the
   Gaultier in question. Would those having delved more deeply into these
   pieces and their "style" agree?
   G.

   --


To get on or off this list see list information at
http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html

[LUTE] Re: Cherbury lute book

[Arthur Ness]

   Lucky you, Leonard.   Another library non-experience.  I can't recall
   exactly what I went to the Newberry to examine.  I think it was
   something for Sylvia Minkoff. (It'll come to me soon, but examining the
   lute book in person was essential.) I had a modest travel grant from
   the Newberry itself, and spent a day or two with the manuscript.  I
   recall a librarian was very helpful.  For example, he found a
   flashlight and held it while I drew and measured the watermarks.

   And I finished and had a few moments for "recreation" before I left for
   the railroad station.

   "Before I leave, could I take a quick look at the Capirola Lute Book?"
   The once so helpful librarian responded, using the royal we, "We'd be
   pleased to let you look at a microfilm."

   Arthur Ness
   arthurjn...@verizon.net

   -Original Message-
   From: Leonard Williams <arc...@verizon.net>
   To: lute <lute@cs.dartmouth.edu>
   Sent: Wed, Jan 31, 2018 4:45 pm
   Subject: [LUTE] Re: Cherbury lute book
   I had the honor (privelege?) of viewing and handling the Capirola
   Ms at the Newberry in Chicago. No real special precautions. I had to
   fill out an application first, naming another responsible party. I
   wasn't trying to play from it.
   It was awesome.
   Leonard Williams

   --


To get on or off this list see list information at
http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html

[LUTE] Re: Cherbury lute book

[Martin Shepherd]

Just to add my voice to the chorus of people saying real books are 
important and easier to use.  I have all the content of the Cherbury MS 
(ancient faded photocopy), but I'm really interested in all the notes 
and concordances as well as having a nice clear copy (preferably 
hardback).  I have nearly all the Boethius Press facsimiles which Bob 
Spencer produced, and value them as much for the concordances as the music.


M


---
This email has been checked for viruses by Avast antivirus software.
https://www.avast.com/antivirus



To get on or off this list see list information at
http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html

[LUTE] Re: Cherbury lute book

[Martyn Hodgson]

   Dear Nancy,
   Many years ago the only way to obtain copies of many of these MSs was
   to pay for a microfilm copy which the collections often then seemed
   willing to make. Some 20/30 years ago the late, and much missed, Donald
   Gill gave me a photocopy of Cherbury printed from such a microfilm.
   Legibility is not good but is quite passable under decent illumination.
   My point in mentioning this is that if a decent facsimile is not
   forthcoming shortly, then players could always explore this
   possibility. When I archived Donald's collection I didn't find this
   microfilm so presumably he borrowed a microfilm - perhaps from the Lute
   Society or Lute Society of America
   regards
   Martyn
   PS I also very much agree with Ron: I find paper copies superior to
   trying to read these things from a screen - also with the added
   advantage that I can turn corners over to mark pieces I find
   particularly notable and can pencil concordances and other observations
   in the margins.  M.
 __

   From: Nancy Carlin <na...@nancycarlinassociates.com>
   To: Ron Andrico <praelu...@hotmail.com>; "lute...@aol.com"
   <lute...@aol.com>; "lute@cs.dartmouth.edu" <lute@cs.dartmouth.edu>
   Sent: Wednesday, 31 January 2018, 18:54
   Subject: [LUTE] Re: Cherbury lute book
   Chris,
   I agree with Ron. I use both digital and book format music and have
   been
   waiting to buy the Cherbury ms since I first heard about it. I am
   especially interested in the noes and concordances.
   Nancy
   >Dear Chris:
   >
   >I'm writing in response to Hector's lute list posting on the
   subject of
   >the Herbert facsimile under consideration for publication.  I
   would buy
   >the Lute Society facsimile edition, and would actively encourage
   others
   >to do so as well.
   >
   >There is a certain misconception that, because pdf facsimiles may
   be
   >readily available from libraries, there is no longer a need for,
   nor a
   >demand for, good quality printed editions of lute music.  I have
   >observed that while lute players love to collect music, and also
   love
   >to get free music, there is simply no replacement for a
   well-designed
   >printed edition that includes essays on historical background and
   >concordances.
   >
   >I'll wager that most downloaded facsimile editions are simply
   archived
   >on hard drives and remain there unused.  And as much as
   technophiles
   >love to tout the latest i-pad gizmos, nothing can replace real
   paper
   >music on a music stand.  I'm not the only person who has observed
   that
   >information from a printed page is mentally processed much more
   >effectively than information on a backlit screen.
   >
   >Yes, please do what is necessary to advance the Herbert facsimile
   >project.
   >
   >Best wishes,
   >
   >Ron
   >
   __
   >
   >From: [1]lute-...@cs.dartmouth.edu <[2]lute-...@cs.dartmouth.edu>
   on behalf
   >of Hector Sequera <[3]hectorl...@mac.com>
   >Sent: Wednesday, January 31, 2018 1:55 PM
   >To: [4]lute@cs.dartmouth.edu
   >Subject: [LUTE] Re: Cherbury lute book
   >
   >Good afternoon,
   >In reply to the original question, the Lute Society just sent an
   email
   >to its membership to assess whether or not there is any interest
   on
   >this. Your reply to the message below may determine the fate of
   this
   >project. If interested simply reply to the secretary at:
   >[5]lute...@aol.com <[1]mailto:[6]lute...@aol.com>
   >Here is the original message sent this morning to the LS list:
   >
   
ââ¬"ââ¬"ââ¬"ââ¬"ââ¬"ââ¬"ââ¬"ââ¬"ââ¬"ââ¬"ââ¬"ââ¬"ââ¬"ââ¬"Ã
   ¢â¬"
   >1. HERBERT OF CHERBURY LUTE BOOK FACSIMILE ââ¬" WOULD YOU BUY A
   COPY?
   >
   >We have been talking for some years about producing a facsimile of
   the
   >Herbert of Cherbury lute book, the last great English renaissance
   lute
   >manuscript, with music from 6 to 10 courses, but there have been
   >delays.
   >
   >We donââ¬â¢t need prepayments or subscriptions but we need to
   have some
   >idea of demand ââ¬" especially as sales of facsimiles are less
   than they
   >were, with some much available online.
   >
   >If a facsimile of the Herbert of Cherbury lute book were similar
   in
   >format to our beautiful Dd.2.11 facsimile, and similar in

[LUTE] Re: Cherbury lute book

[Magnus Andersson]

   On a personal note,
   I don ´t think I ´d   have been able to see the Dresden mss of Weiss
   last year hadn ´t it been for
   a personal connection at the SLUB. It was so interesting to see letters
   in the tablature that have
   gone missing in the scanning process.
   I had the same luck when a friend of mine knew the staff at the library
   in Florence and
   I was able to study the lute mss in the Magliabechiana collections.
   What a treasure.
   And- I would also get the Herbert book if it were to be published. I
   find it much easier
   to get an overview of the actual ms when I have it as a book in front
   of me.
   Magnus

   On Wed, Jan 31, 2018 at 11:20 PM, Peter Danner
   <[1]peter...@new-old-mail.cs.dartmouth.edu> wrote:

 Arthur's comment on the answer Bob Spencer got from the FWM
 librarian about the Cherbury manuscript reminds me of my own
 experience at the Fitzwilliam when my wife, daughter and I visited
 Cambridge in 1978. I had casually popped into the Fitzwilliam
 (around the corner from our hotel) one afternoon while the family
 was elsewhere. I may have gone in there simply to get out of the
 rain.
 I found the Cherbury to be on display as part of a special exhibit
 the museum was holding, and the director must have noticed me eying
 it keenly when he happened to pass through the room. He asked why it
 so drew my interest, and I must have given the right answers,
 because he drew a set of keys from his pocket and withdrew it for me
 to examine more closely at a nearby table. I was only asked to put
 on gloves. I probably did nothing more than look for variations in
 the handwriting. It was only a quick look, but a thrill none the
 same.
 To get on or off this list see list information at
 [2]http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html

   --

References

   1. mailto:peter...@new-old-mail.cs.dartmouth.edu
   2. http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html

[LUTE] Re: Cherbury lute book

[Peter Danner]

Arthur’s comment on the answer Bob Spencer got from the FWM librarian about the 
Cherbury manuscript reminds me of my own experience at the Fitzwilliam when my 
wife, daughter and I visited Cambridge in 1978. I had casually popped into the 
Fitzwilliam (around the corner from our hotel) one afternoon while the family 
was elsewhere. I may have gone in there simply to get out of the rain.

I found the Cherbury to be on display as part of a special exhibit the museum 
was holding, and the director must have noticed me eying it keenly when he 
happened to pass through the room. He asked why it so drew my interest, and I 
must have given the right answers, because he drew a set of keys from his 
pocket and withdrew it for me to examine more closely at a nearby table. I was 
only asked to put on gloves. I probably did nothing more than look for 
variations in the handwriting. It was only a quick look, but a thrill none the 
same.



To get on or off this list see list information at
http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html

[LUTE] Re: Cherbury lute book

[Leonard Williams]

   I had the honor (privelege?) of viewing and handling the Capirola
   Ms at the Newberry in Chicago.  No real special precautions. I had to
   fill out an application first, naming another responsible party.  I
   wasn't trying to play from it.

  It was awesome.
   Leonard Williams
   -Original Message-
   From: John Mardinly <john.mardi...@asu.edu>
   To: Arthur Ness <arthurjn...@verizon.net>
   Cc: spiffys84121 <spiffys84...@cs.dartmouth.edu>; lute
   <lute@cs.dartmouth.edu>
   Sent: Wed, Jan 31, 2018 2:24 pm
   Subject: [LUTE] Re: Cherbury lute book
   --_000_FFA9553912F34B37A36432623F95F2B4asuedu_
   Content-Type: text/plain; charset="windows-1258"
   Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable
   Appalling about the Siena Lute Book.
   Gloves are cheap!
   A. John Mardinly, Ph.D., P.E.
   [cid:43213E1A-45A3-4C0C-B084-966A95C27ED9]
   The Sleep of Reason Produces Monsters
   Francisco Goya
   On Jan 31, 2018, at 12:12 PM, Arthur Ness
   <[1]arthurjn...@verizon.net<[2]mailto:arthurjn...@verizon.net>> wrote:
   the Siena Lute Book
   --_000_FFA9553912F34B37A36432623F95F2B4asuedu_
   Content-Type: text/html; charset="windows-1258"
   Content-ID:
   <[3]fdab66bcacba2e4889ad1b663dbe1...@namprd06.prod.outlook.com>
   Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable
   
   
   
   
   
   Appalling aboutthe Siena Lute Book.
   
   
   Gloves are
   cheap!
   
   
   
   
   
   A. John Mardinly, Ph.D.,P.E.
   
   
   
   
   The Sleep of Reason Produces Monsters
   
   Francisco Goya
   
   
   
   
   
   
   On Jan 31, 2018, at 12:12 PM, Arthur Ness mailto:arthurjn...@verizon.net;
   class="">[5]arthurjn...@verizon.net wrote:
   
   the
   Siena Lute Book
   
   
   
   
   
   
   --_000_FFA9553912F34B37A36432623F95F2B4asuedu_--
   --
   To get on or off this list see list information at
   [6]http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html

   --

References

   1. mailto:arthurjn...@verizon.net
   2. mailto:arthurjn...@verizon.net?
   3. mailto:fdab66bcacba2e4889ad1b663dbe1...@namprd06.prod.outlook.com
   4. mailto:arthurjn...@verizon.net;?
   5. mailto:arthurjn...@verizon.net
   6. http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html

[LUTE] Re: Cherbury lute book

[Tristan von Neumann]

Well, I guess if you had electricity, you could access your harddisk 
then :) But if all the landlines are down... also your genny might be 
broken after the storm...
While I listen to my gramophone after having played from hardcopy lute 
books :)


As for Trump: he knows the US can't win against China, and he's not that 
dumb to push the button.



Am 31.01.2018 um 20:28 schrieb John Mardinly:
As a former R worker at Western Digital, I can assure that a sun storm 
will not erase your disk drive. Just be glad you don’t live in America 
where donald trump has that big red button that he threatens north Korea 
with. That would be another storm starting with ’s’…..


A. John Mardinly, Ph.D., P.E.


The Sleep of Reason Produces Monsters
Francisco Goya



On Jan 31, 2018, at 12:07 PM, Tristan von Neumann 
<tristanvonneum...@gmx.de <mailto:tristanvonneum...@gmx.de>> wrote:


Here's my thoughts: I would recommend buying books anytime, and 
printing tabs.

But the reason is quite different from those of most of you I guess.

It is very simple: You never know when there is such a sun storm that 
all electric stuff is going to be destroyed.
This happened in mid 19th century, but of course this only affected 
telegraph business.
Today it is different. An event like that would probably destroy much 
of the electric infrastructure, basically going back to ancient times.

I am not kidding here.

So - books are welcome!

As for expensive facsimiles:
If the books are very beautiful like the Hainhofer Books, the Capirola 
Manuscript or some prints, it's probably not attractive to have a 
"reduced" quality. I would have bought the Capirola fac already if it 
wasn't either B/W or double pages.

Either you make it a very affordable simple edition, or make it a treat!
I think people have no need for expensive facsimiles that don't 
display the beauty of the original.


Am 31.01.2018 um 19:51 schrieb Nancy Carlin:

Chris,
I agree with Ron. I use both digital and book format music and have 
been waiting to buy the Cherbury ms since I first heard about it. I 
am especially interested in the noes and concordances.

Nancy

    Dear Chris:

    I'm writing in response to Hector's lute list posting on the 
subject of
    the Herbert facsimile under consideration for publication.  I 
would buy
    the Lute Society facsimile edition, and would actively encourage 
others

    to do so as well.

    There is a certain misconception that, because pdf facsimiles may be
    readily available from libraries, there is no longer a need for, 
nor a

    demand for, good quality printed editions of lute music.  I have
    observed that while lute players love to collect music, and also 
love
    to get free music, there is simply no replacement for a 
well-designed

    printed edition that includes essays on historical background and
    concordances.

    I'll wager that most downloaded facsimile editions are simply 
archived

    on hard drives and remain there unused.  And as much as technophiles
    love to tout the latest i-pad gizmos, nothing can replace real paper
    music on a music stand.  I'm not the only person who has 
observed that

    information from a printed page is mentally processed much more
    effectively than information on a backlit screen.

    Yes, please do what is necessary to advance the Herbert facsimile
    project.

    Best wishes,

    Ron
  __

    From: lute-...@cs.dartmouth.edu 
<mailto:lute-...@cs.dartmouth.edu> <lute-...@cs.dartmouth.edu 
<mailto:lute-...@cs.dartmouth.edu>> on behalf

    of Hector Sequera <hectorl...@mac.com <mailto:hectorl...@mac.com>>
    Sent: Wednesday, January 31, 2018 1:55 PM
    To: lute@cs.dartmouth.edu <mailto:lute@cs.dartmouth.edu>
    Subject: [LUTE] Re: Cherbury lute book

    Good afternoon,
    In reply to the original question, the Lute Society just sent an 
email

    to its membership to assess whether or not there is any interest on
    this. Your reply to the message below may determine the fate of this
    project. If interested simply reply to the secretary at:
lute...@aol.com <mailto:lute...@aol.com> <[1]mailto:lute...@aol.com>
    Here is the original message sent this morning to the LS list:
    ———————————————
    1. HERBERT OF CHERBURY LUTE BOOK FACSIMILE – WOULD YOU BUY A COPY?

    We have been talking for some years about producing a facsimile 
of the
    Herbert of Cherbury lute book, the last great English 
renaissance lute

    manuscript, with music from 6 to 10 courses, but there have been
    delays.

    We don’t need prepayments or subscriptions but we need to have 
some
    idea of demand – especially as sales of facsimiles are less 
than they

    were, with some much available online.

    If a facsimile of the Herbert of Cherbury lute book were similar in
    f

[LUTE] Re: Cherbury lute book

[John Mardinly]

--_000_FFA9553912F34B37A36432623F95F2B4asuedu_
Content-Type: text/plain; charset="windows-1258"
Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable

Appalling about the Siena Lute Book.

Gloves are cheap!

A. John Mardinly, Ph.D., P.E.

[cid:43213E1A-45A3-4C0C-B084-966A95C27ED9]

The Sleep of Reason Produces Monsters
Francisco Goya



On Jan 31, 2018, at 12:12 PM, Arthur Ness 
> wrote:

the Siena Lute Book


--_000_FFA9553912F34B37A36432623F95F2B4asuedu_
Content-Type: text/html; charset="windows-1258"
Content-ID: 
Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable






Appalling aboutthe Siena 
Lute Book.


Gloves are cheap!





A. John Mardinly, Ph.D.,P.E.




The Sleep of Reason Produces Monsters

Francisco Goya






On Jan 31, 2018, at 12:12 PM, Arthur Ness mailto:arthurjn...@verizon.net; class="">arthurjn...@verizon.net 
wrote:

the
 Siena Lute Book







--_000_FFA9553912F34B37A36432623F95F2B4asuedu_--

--

To get on or off this list see list information at
http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html

[LUTE] Re: Cherbury lute book

[Arthur Ness]

   Sterling (hi!) remarked "Ya, I've been waiting decades now (I think)
   for the cherbury manuscript
   to be published."
   Why not try eons?
   How many years has Bob Spencer been gone? Twenty.  For decades he
   wanted to publish a facsimile
   of the Cherbury manuscript, but the aged music librarian at the FWM
   would not give permission.  It was probably
   No. 1 on Bob's list.
   Why?  The librarian's excuse was that the facsimile would attract
   hordes of readers wanting
   to see the original and it would be damaged.  Honest!!  Bob gave up and
   opined we'd just
   have to wait until the librarian "retired."  It is so nice to read
   the dedication to Bob's memory
   in the Holmes facsimiles.
   I experienced just the opposite with the Siena Lute Book.  It was a
   major source for the
   Francesco edition,* and I traveled to The Hague in order to see it in
   person.  It was in mint condition.  One
   might think it had been copied a few weeks before. Later I urged Mrs.
   Minkoff to publish a facsimile.
   In the meantime it got a bit messy from sweaty fingers. Twentieth
   century fingers. The museum
   library had set aside a special room where local lutenists could gather
   and pay directly from the
   manuscript.   I trust they use the facsimile these days.  Or perhaps
   they bring it out a few times
   each year just for he thrill of playing from the original.
   Then there was the time I visited our Boston Public Library to see
   Dowland's second book of ayres.
   They own the Countess of Bedford's dedication copy, all bound up in red
   leather with embossed
   gold decorations.  It was brought out by a page wearing white cotton
   gloves.  He stood behind me,
   leaned over and turned the pages when I nodded.
   Arthur Ness
   arthurjn...@verizon.net
   *The best readings were in the Siena Ms.  I was nearing completion when
   I discovered Siena, and I had
   to recopy several pieces to incorporate Siena's superior readings.
   That was troublesome because the
   original plan to use my penned copy and I had to use ruled beams and
   barlines. I paid $100 for the pen.
   As a student I earned pocket change by copying music, and acting as the
   amanuensis for a Hollywood
   ASCAP composer who couldn't read music. He'd play his latest, and I'd
   write it down.  Ultimately the
   Press raised enough to pay for beautiful engravings were done in
   Japan.  My classmate Masakata
   "Holborn" Kanazawa served as intermediary.
   -Original Message-
   From: spiffys84121 <spiffys84...@cs.dartmouth.edu>
   To: Lutelist <lute@cs.dartmouth.edu>
   Sent: Wed, Jan 31, 2018 7:29 am
   Subject: [LUTE] Re: Cherbury lute book
   Ya, I've been waiting decades now (I think) for the cherbury manuscript
   to be published.
   Sterling Price
   Sent from my Verizon, Samsung Galaxy smartphone
    Original message 
   From: Matthew Daillie <dail...@club-internet.fr>
   Date: 1/31/18 4:26 AM (GMT-07:00)
   To: Lutelist <[1]lute@cs.dartmouth.edu>
   Subject: [LUTE] Re: Cherbury lute book
   The last I heard all the hard work had been done but they were waiting
   to break even on the Matthew Holmes manuscript before publishing. This
   was already some time ago.
   Best,
   Matthew
   On 31/01/2018 11:54, Rainer wrote:
   > I seem to remember that the English LS had announced a facsimile
   edition.
   >
   > Rainer
   To get on or off this list see list information at
   [2]http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html

   --

References

   1. mailto:lute@cs.dartmouth.edu
   2. http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html

[LUTE] Re: Cherbury lute book

[Tristan von Neumann]

Here's my thoughts: I would recommend buying books anytime, and printing 
tabs.

But the reason is quite different from those of most of you I guess.

It is very simple: You never know when there is such a sun storm that 
all electric stuff is going to be destroyed.
This happened in mid 19th century, but of course this only affected 
telegraph business.
Today it is different. An event like that would probably destroy much of 
the electric infrastructure, basically going back to ancient times.

I am not kidding here.

So - books are welcome!

As for expensive facsimiles:
If the books are very beautiful like the Hainhofer Books, the Capirola 
Manuscript or some prints, it's probably not attractive to have a 
"reduced" quality. I would have bought the Capirola fac already if it 
wasn't either B/W or double pages.

Either you make it a very affordable simple edition, or make it a treat!
I think people have no need for expensive facsimiles that don't display 
the beauty of the original.


Am 31.01.2018 um 19:51 schrieb Nancy Carlin:

Chris,
I agree with Ron. I use both digital and book format music and have been 
waiting to buy the Cherbury ms since I first heard about it. I am 
especially interested in the noes and concordances.

Nancy

    Dear Chris:

    I'm writing in response to Hector's lute list posting on the 
subject of
    the Herbert facsimile under consideration for publication.  I 
would buy
    the Lute Society facsimile edition, and would actively encourage 
others

    to do so as well.

    There is a certain misconception that, because pdf facsimiles may be
    readily available from libraries, there is no longer a need for, 
nor a

    demand for, good quality printed editions of lute music.  I have
    observed that while lute players love to collect music, and also love
    to get free music, there is simply no replacement for a well-designed
    printed edition that includes essays on historical background and
    concordances.

    I'll wager that most downloaded facsimile editions are simply 
archived

    on hard drives and remain there unused.  And as much as technophiles
    love to tout the latest i-pad gizmos, nothing can replace real paper
    music on a music stand.  I'm not the only person who has observed 
that

    information from a printed page is mentally processed much more
    effectively than information on a backlit screen.

    Yes, please do what is necessary to advance the Herbert facsimile
    project.

    Best wishes,

    Ron
  __

    From: lute-...@cs.dartmouth.edu <lute-...@cs.dartmouth.edu> on behalf
    of Hector Sequera <hectorl...@mac.com>
    Sent: Wednesday, January 31, 2018 1:55 PM
    To: lute@cs.dartmouth.edu
    Subject: [LUTE] Re: Cherbury lute book

    Good afternoon,
    In reply to the original question, the Lute Society just sent an 
email

    to its membership to assess whether or not there is any interest on
    this. Your reply to the message below may determine the fate of this
    project. If interested simply reply to the secretary at:
    lute...@aol.com <[1]mailto:lute...@aol.com>
    Here is the original message sent this morning to the LS list:
    ———————————————
    1. HERBERT OF CHERBURY LUTE BOOK FACSIMILE – WOULD YOU BUY A COPY?

    We have been talking for some years about producing a facsimile of 
the
    Herbert of Cherbury lute book, the last great English renaissance 
lute

    manuscript, with music from 6 to 10 courses, but there have been
    delays.

    We don’t need prepayments or subscriptions but we need to have some
    idea of demand – especially as sales of facsimiles are less than 
they

    were, with some much available online.

    If a facsimile of the Herbert of Cherbury lute book were similar in
    format to our beautiful Dd.2.11 facsimile, and similar in price - 
£50

    to members - WOULD YOU VERY PROBABLY BUY A COPY? PLEASE REPLY TO THIS
    EMAIL TO LET US KNOW!

    And let us know if this would be too expensive, but you would buy
    simple, say, black and white reproduction, for, say £25.
    ————————————————
    Best wishes,
    Hector
    > On 31 Jan 2018, at 13:39, Matteo Turri <matteo.o.tu...@gmail.com>
    wrote:
    >
    >   On 28 January 2018 at 12:42, Denys Stephens
    <[1]denyssteph...@sky.com>
    >   wrote:
    >
    >   Dear Matteo,
    >
    >   Thanks for your email! The subject of the planned Cherbury
    facsimile
    >   was discussed at the Lute Society committee meeting held last
    December,
    >   and there was still strong interest in publishing a hard copy
    facsimile
    >   at that time. However, it wasn't known then that the museum would
    be
    >   offering a PDF copy of the manuscript, and that may change views
    within
    >   the committ

[LUTE] Re: Cherbury lute book

[Nancy Carlin]

Chris,
I agree with Ron. I use both digital and book format music and have been 
waiting to buy the Cherbury ms since I first heard about it. I am 
especially interested in the noes and concordances.

Nancy

Dear Chris:

I'm writing in response to Hector's lute list posting on the subject of
the Herbert facsimile under consideration for publication.  I would buy
the Lute Society facsimile edition, and would actively encourage others
to do so as well.

There is a certain misconception that, because pdf facsimiles may be
readily available from libraries, there is no longer a need for, nor a
demand for, good quality printed editions of lute music.  I have
observed that while lute players love to collect music, and also love
to get free music, there is simply no replacement for a well-designed
printed edition that includes essays on historical background and
concordances.

I'll wager that most downloaded facsimile editions are simply archived
on hard drives and remain there unused.  And as much as technophiles
love to tout the latest i-pad gizmos, nothing can replace real paper
music on a music stand.  I'm not the only person who has observed that
information from a printed page is mentally processed much more
effectively than information on a backlit screen.

Yes, please do what is necessary to advance the Herbert facsimile
project.

Best wishes,

Ron
  __

From: lute-...@cs.dartmouth.edu <lute-...@cs.dartmouth.edu> on behalf
of Hector Sequera <hectorl...@mac.com>
Sent: Wednesday, January 31, 2018 1:55 PM
To: lute@cs.dartmouth.edu
    Subject: [LUTE] Re: Cherbury lute book

Good afternoon,
In reply to the original question, the Lute Society just sent an email
to its membership to assess whether or not there is any interest on
this. Your reply to the message below may determine the fate of this
project. If interested simply reply to the secretary at:
lute...@aol.com <[1]mailto:lute...@aol.com>
Here is the original message sent this morning to the LS list:
———————————————
1. HERBERT OF CHERBURY LUTE BOOK FACSIMILE – WOULD YOU BUY A COPY?

We have been talking for some years about producing a facsimile of the
Herbert of Cherbury lute book, the last great English renaissance lute
manuscript, with music from 6 to 10 courses, but there have been
delays.

We don’t need prepayments or subscriptions but we need to have some
idea of demand – especially as sales of facsimiles are less than they
were, with some much available online.

If a facsimile of the Herbert of Cherbury lute book were similar in
format to our beautiful Dd.2.11 facsimile, and similar in price - £50
to members - WOULD YOU VERY PROBABLY BUY A COPY? PLEASE REPLY TO THIS
EMAIL TO LET US KNOW!

And let us know if this would be too expensive, but you would buy
simple, say, black and white reproduction, for, say £25.
————————————————
Best wishes,
Hector
> On 31 Jan 2018, at 13:39, Matteo Turri <matteo.o.tu...@gmail.com>
wrote:
>
>   On 28 January 2018 at 12:42, Denys Stephens
<[1]denyssteph...@sky.com>
>   wrote:
>
>   Dear Matteo,
>
>   Thanks for your email! The subject of the planned Cherbury
facsimile
>   was discussed at the Lute Society committee meeting held last
December,
>   and there was still strong interest in publishing a hard copy
facsimile
>   at that time. However, it wasn't known then that the museum would
be
>   offering a PDF copy of the manuscript, and that may change views
within
>   the committee about the viability of a hard copy edition. So I'm
afraid
>   that I can't give you a definitive answer at the moment, but
hopefully
>   a decision will be made on this later this year. A great deal of
work
>   has been done by the society on the introductory material for the
>   facsimile, and I feel sure that this will be made available by the
>   society in some form in the not too distant future.
>
>
>   Best wishes,
>
>
>   Denys Stephens
>
>
>   From: Matteo Turri [[2]mailto:[2]matteo.o.tu...@gmail.com]
>   Sent: 27 January 2018 13:21
>   To: [3]denyssteph...@sky.com
>   Subject: Lord Herbert of Cherbury's Lutebook (now available as a
>   downlload)
>
>
>   Dear Denys,
>
>   since the Fitzwilliam Museum makes available a download of the
>   facsimile of the Lord Herbert of Cherbury's Lutebook - for £25.00
you
>   get access to "a free download" [sic]

[LUTE] Re: Cherbury lute book

[Max Langer]

   I use a galaxy tab s2 and a Donner page turner. Heartily recommended.
   On 31 January 2018 at 18:16, Bruno Cognyl-Fournier
   <[1]fournier...@gmail.com> wrote:

Although I like to have printed facsimiles and editions in
 general, I
find PDF's more and more practical for browsing quickly through
 the
music and printing only what you want to play.I am actually
considering buying a large table so I can read straight from the
 pdf,
even in concert..
Bruno

  2018-01-31 11:17 GMT-05:00 Ron Andrico
   <[1][2]praelu...@hotmail.com>:
   Dear Chris:
   I'm writing in response to Hector's lute list posting on the
subject of
   the Herbert facsimile under consideration for publication.I
would buy
   the Lute Society facsimile edition, and would actively
   encourage
others
   to do so as well.
   There is a certain misconception that, because pdf facsimiles
   may
be
   readily available from libraries, there is no longer a need
   for,
nor a
   demand for, good quality printed editions of lute music.I
   have
   observed that while lute players love to collect music, and
   also
love
   to get free music, there is simply no replacement for a
well-designed
   printed edition that includes essays on historical background
   and
   concordances.
   I'll wager that most downloaded facsimile editions are simply
archived
   on hard drives and remain there unused.And as much as
technophiles
   love to tout the latest i-pad gizmos, nothing can replace real
paper
   music on a music stand.I'm not the only person who has
observed that
   information from a printed page is mentally processed much more
   effectively than information on a backlit screen.
   Yes, please do what is necessary to advance the Herbert
   facsimile
   project.
   Best wishes,
   Ron
 
__

 From: [2][3]lute-...@cs.dartmouth.edu
 <[3][4]lute-...@cs.dartmouth.edu>
  on behalf
 of Hector Sequera <[4][5]hectorl...@mac.com>
 Sent: Wednesday, January 31, 2018 1:55 PM
 To: [5][6]lute@cs.dartmouth.edu
         Subject: [LUTE] Re: Cherbury lute book
 Good afternoon,
 In reply to the original question, the Lute Society just
 sent an
  email
 to its membership to assess whether or not there is any
 interest
  on
 this. Your reply to the message below may determine the fate
 of
  this
 project. If interested simply reply to the secretary at:
 [6][7]lute...@aol.com <[1]mailto:[7][8]lute...@aol.com>
 Here is the original message sent this morning to the LS
 list:
 âââââââââââââââ
 1. HERBERT OF CHERBURY LUTE BOOK FACSIMILE â WOULD YOU BUY
 A
  COPY?
 We have been talking for some years about producing a
 facsimile
  of the
 Herbert of Cherbury lute book, the last great English
 renaissance
  lute
 manuscript, with music from 6 to 10 courses, but there have
 been
 delays.
 We don't need prepayments or subscriptions but we need to
 have
  some
 idea of demand â especially as sales of facsimiles are less
 than
  they
 were, with some much available online.
 If a facsimile of the Herbert of Cherbury lute book were
 similar
  in
 format to our beautiful Dd.2.11 facsimile, and similar in
 price -
   £50
 to members - WOULD YOU VERY PROBABLY BUY A COPY? PLEASE
 REPLY TO
  THIS
 EMAIL TO LET US KNOW!
 And let us know if this would be too expensive, but you
 would buy
 simple, say, black and white reproduction, for, say £25.
 ââââââââââââââââ
 Best wishes,
 Hector
 > On 31 Jan 2018, at 13:39, Matteo Turri
  <[8][9]matteo.o.tu...@gmail.com>
 wrote:
 >
 > On 28 January 2018 at 12:42, Denys Stephens
 <[1][9][10]denyssteph...@sky.com>

   > wrote:
   >
   > Dear Matteo,
   >
   > Thanks for your email! The subject of the planned
   Cherbury
   facsimile
   > was discussed at the Lute Society committee meeting held
last

[LUTE] Re: Cherbury lute book

[Dan Winheld]

I HEARTILY second Ron's sentiments. And yes, I got stuff on the hard 
drive going nowhere. Last big download project was Miguel de Fuenllana's 
magnificent opus- well over 300 pages- I spent literally hundreds of 
dollars on all the paper and ink cartridges necessary for this, and then 
had to collate & get it all bound- three volumes! (Ironic note, I used 
to do offset lithography for a living).


I really, really miss good old "Books of Music" - yes, I want the 
Herb-Cherb! (and a few others)


Dan

On 1/31/2018 8:17 AM, Ron Andrico wrote:

Dear Chris:

I'm writing in response to Hector's lute list posting on the subject of
the Herbert facsimile under consideration for publication.  I would buy
the Lute Society facsimile edition, and would actively encourage others
to do so as well.

There is a certain misconception that, because pdf facsimiles may be
readily available from libraries, there is no longer a need for, nor a
demand for, good quality printed editions of lute music.  I have
observed that while lute players love to collect music, and also love
to get free music, there is simply no replacement for a well-designed
printed edition that includes essays on historical background and
concordances.

I'll wager that most downloaded facsimile editions are simply archived
on hard drives and remain there unused.  And as much as technophiles
love to tout the latest i-pad gizmos, nothing can replace real paper
music on a music stand.  I'm not the only person who has observed that
information from a printed page is mentally processed much more
effectively than information on a backlit screen.

Yes, please do what is necessary to advance the Herbert facsimile
project.

Best wishes,

Ron
  __

From: lute-...@cs.dartmouth.edu <lute-...@cs.dartmouth.edu> on behalf
of Hector Sequera <hectorl...@mac.com>
Sent: Wednesday, January 31, 2018 1:55 PM
To: lute@cs.dartmouth.edu
Subject: [LUTE] Re: Cherbury lute book

Good afternoon,
In reply to the original question, the Lute Society just sent an email
to its membership to assess whether or not there is any interest on
this. Your reply to the message below may determine the fate of this
project. If interested simply reply to the secretary at:
lute...@aol.com <[1]mailto:lute...@aol.com>
Here is the original message sent this morning to the LS list:
———————————————
1. HERBERT OF CHERBURY LUTE BOOK FACSIMILE – WOULD YOU BUY A COPY?

We have been talking for some years about producing a facsimile of the
Herbert of Cherbury lute book, the last great English renaissance lute
manuscript, with music from 6 to 10 courses, but there have been
delays.

We don’t need prepayments or subscriptions but we need to have some
idea of demand – especially as sales of facsimiles are less than they
were, with some much available online.

If a facsimile of the Herbert of Cherbury lute book were similar in
format to our beautiful Dd.2.11 facsimile, and similar in price - £50
to members - WOULD YOU VERY PROBABLY BUY A COPY? PLEASE REPLY TO THIS
EMAIL TO LET US KNOW!

And let us know if this would be too expensive, but you would buy
simple, say, black and white reproduction, for, say £25.
————————————————
Best wishes,
Hector





To get on or off this list see list information at
http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html

[LUTE] Re: Cherbury lute book

[Bruno Cognyl-Fournier]

   Although I like to have printed facsimiles and editions in general, I
   find PDF's more and more practical for browsing quickly through the
   music and printing only what you want to play.   I am actually
   considering buying a large table so I can read straight from the pdf,
   even in concert..
   Bruno

   2018-01-31 11:17 GMT-05:00 Ron Andrico <[1]praelu...@hotmail.com>:

Dear Chris:
I'm writing in response to Hector's lute list posting on the
 subject of
the Herbert facsimile under consideration for publication.   I
 would buy
the Lute Society facsimile edition, and would actively encourage
 others
to do so as well.
There is a certain misconception that, because pdf facsimiles may
 be
readily available from libraries, there is no longer a need for,
 nor a
demand for, good quality printed editions of lute music.   I have
observed that while lute players love to collect music, and also
 love
to get free music, there is simply no replacement for a
 well-designed
printed edition that includes essays on historical background and
concordances.
I'll wager that most downloaded facsimile editions are simply
 archived
on hard drives and remain there unused.   And as much as
 technophiles
love to tout the latest i-pad gizmos, nothing can replace real
 paper
music on a music stand.   I'm not the only person who has
 observed that
information from a printed page is mentally processed much more
effectively than information on a backlit screen.
Yes, please do what is necessary to advance the Herbert facsimile
project.
Best wishes,
Ron
  
 __
From: [2]lute-...@cs.dartmouth.edu <[3]lute-...@cs.dartmouth.edu>
 on behalf
of Hector Sequera <[4]hectorl...@mac.com>
Sent: Wednesday, January 31, 2018 1:55 PM
To: [5]lute@cs.dartmouth.edu
    Subject: [LUTE] Re: Cherbury lute book
Good afternoon,
In reply to the original question, the Lute Society just sent an
 email
to its membership to assess whether or not there is any interest
 on
this. Your reply to the message below may determine the fate of
 this
project. If interested simply reply to the secretary at:
[6]lute...@aol.com <[1]mailto:[7]lute...@aol.com>
Here is the original message sent this morning to the LS list:
âââââââââââââââ
1. HERBERT OF CHERBURY LUTE BOOK FACSIMILE â WOULD YOU BUY A
 COPY?
We have been talking for some years about producing a facsimile
 of the
Herbert of Cherbury lute book, the last great English renaissance
 lute
manuscript, with music from 6 to 10 courses, but there have been
delays.
We don't need prepayments or subscriptions but we need to have
 some
idea of demand â especially as sales of facsimiles are less than
 they
were, with some much available online.
If a facsimile of the Herbert of Cherbury lute book were similar
 in
format to our beautiful Dd.2.11 facsimile, and similar in price -
 £50
to members - WOULD YOU VERY PROBABLY BUY A COPY? PLEASE REPLY TO
 THIS
EMAIL TO LET US KNOW!
And let us know if this would be too expensive, but you would buy
simple, say, black and white reproduction, for, say £25.
ââââââââââââââââ
Best wishes,
Hector
> On 31 Jan 2018, at 13:39, Matteo Turri
 <[8]matteo.o.tu...@gmail.com>
wrote:
>
>On 28 January 2018 at 12:42, Denys Stephens
<[1][9]denyssteph...@sky.com>
>wrote:
>
>Dear Matteo,
>
>Thanks for your email! The subject of the planned Cherbury
facsimile
>was discussed at the Lute Society committee meeting held
 last
December,
>and there was still strong interest in publishing a hard
 copy
facsimile
>at that time. However, it wasn't known then that the museum
 would
be
>offering a PDF copy of the manuscript, and that may change
 views
within
>the committee about the viability of a hard copy edition. So
 I'm
afraid
>that I can't give you a definitive answer at the moment, but
hopefully
>a decision will be made on this later this year. A great
 deal of
work
>has been done by the society on the introductory material
 for the
>facsimile, and I feel sure that this will be made available
 by the
>societ

[LUTE] Re: Cherbury lute book

[Hector Sequera]

Dear All,

As indicated in the message below, please reply directly to the secretary of 
the Lute Society since I am not collating the replies but simply passing the 
information to this list.

Best wishes,

Hector


> On 31 January 2018 at 14:55, Hector Sequera  > wrote:
> Good afternoon,
> 
> In reply to the original question, the Lute Society just sent an email to its 
> membership to assess whether or not there is any interest on this. Your reply 
> to the message below may determine the fate of this project. If interested 
> simply reply to the secretary at: lute...@aol.com  
> >
> 
> Here is the original message sent this morning to the LS list:
> 
> ———————————————
> 
> 1. HERBERT OF CHERBURY LUTE BOOK FACSIMILE – WOULD YOU BUY A COPY?
> 
> We have been talking for some years about producing a facsimile of the 
> Herbert of Cherbury lute book, the last great English renaissance lute 
> manuscript, with music from 6 to 10 courses, but there have been delays.
> 
> We don’t need prepayments or subscriptions but we need to have some idea of 
> demand – especially as sales of facsimiles are less than they were, with 
> some much available online.
> 
> If a facsimile of the Herbert of Cherbury lute book were similar in format to 
> our beautiful Dd.2.11 facsimile, and similar in price - ​​£50 to members 
> - WOULD YOU VERY PROBABLY BUY A COPY? PLEASE REPLY TO THIS EMAIL TO LET US 
> KNOW!
> 
> And let us know if this would be too expensive, but you would buy simple, 
> say, black and white reproduction, for, say £25.
> 
> ————————————————
> 
> Best wishes,
> 
> Hector
> 
> 
> > On 31 Jan 2018, at 13:39, Matteo Turri  > > wrote:
> >
> >   On 28 January 2018 at 12:42, Denys Stephens <[1]denyssteph...@sky.com 
> > >
> >   wrote:
> >
> >   Dear Matteo,
> >
> >   Thanks for your email! The subject of the planned Cherbury facsimile
> >   was discussed at the Lute Society committee meeting held last December,
> >   and there was still strong interest in publishing a hard copy facsimile
> >   at that time. However, it wasn't known then that the museum would be
> >   offering a PDF copy of the manuscript, and that may change views within
> >   the committee about the viability of a hard copy edition. So I'm afraid
> >   that I can't give you a definitive answer at the moment, but hopefully
> >   a decision will be made on this later this year. A great deal of work
> >   has been done by the society on the introductory material for the
> >   facsimile, and I feel sure that this will be made available by the
> >   society in some form in the not too distant future.
> >
> >
> >   Best wishes,
> >
> >
> >   Denys Stephens
> >
> >
> >   From: Matteo Turri [mailto:[2]matteo.o.tu...@gmail.com 
> > ]
> >   Sent: 27 January 2018 13:21
> >   To: [3]denyssteph...@sky.com 
> >   Subject: Lord Herbert of Cherbury's Lutebook (now available as a
> >   downlload)
> >
> >
> >   Dear Denys,
> >
> >   since the Fitzwilliam Museum makes available a download of the
> >   facsimile of the Lord Herbert of Cherbury's Lutebook - for £25.00 you
> >   get access to "a free download" [sic]   - , I was wondering when the
> >   Lute Society will publish its edition of the manuscript.
> >
> >   Best regards
> >
> >   Matteo Turri
> >
> >   On 31 January 2018 at 11:54, Rainer <[4]rads.bera_g...@t-online.de 
> > >
> >   wrote:
> >
> > I seem to remember that the English LS had announced a facsimile
> > edition.
> > Rainer
> > On 31.01.2018 11:19, G. C. wrote:
> >
> > Yes, 25 pounds for a "free download" :D
> > G.
> > On Wed, Jan 31, 2018 at 11:12 AM, Rainer
> > <[1][5]rads.bera_g...@t-online.de 
> > > wrote:
> >   Have you received a reply?
> >   Rainer
> >   On 20.01.2018 10:52, Matteo Turri wrote:
> >   We are pleased to offer complete digital copies of the
> > following
> >   manuscripts from the Fitzwilliam collection, supplied in
> > pdf
> >   format
> >   and available via a free download or on CD.
> >   Cost: £25.00 +vat per manuscript (inc. postage where
> > necessary).
> >   As I understand it, it's either a free download for the
> > pdf or
> >   £25 for
> >   the CD.
> >   I just sent them an email - we'll see.
> >   Matteo
> >   To get on or off this list see list information at
> >   [2][6]http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html 
> > 
> > 

[LUTE] Re: Cherbury lute book

[Hector Sequera]

Good afternoon,

In reply to the original question, the Lute Society just sent an email to its 
membership to assess whether or not there is any interest on this. Your reply 
to the message below may determine the fate of this project. If interested 
simply reply to the secretary at: lute...@aol.com 

Here is the original message sent this morning to the LS list:

———————————————

1. HERBERT OF CHERBURY LUTE BOOK FACSIMILE – WOULD YOU BUY A COPY?
 
We have been talking for some years about producing a facsimile of the Herbert 
of Cherbury lute book, the last great English renaissance lute manuscript, with 
music from 6 to 10 courses, but there have been delays.
 
We don’t need prepayments or subscriptions but we need to have some idea of 
demand – especially as sales of facsimiles are less than they were, with some 
much available online.
 
If a facsimile of the Herbert of Cherbury lute book were similar in format to 
our beautiful Dd.2.11 facsimile, and similar in price - £50 to members - WOULD 
YOU VERY PROBABLY BUY A COPY? PLEASE REPLY TO THIS EMAIL TO LET US KNOW!
 
And let us know if this would be too expensive, but you would buy simple, say, 
black and white reproduction, for, say £25.

————————————————

Best wishes,

Hector


> On 31 Jan 2018, at 13:39, Matteo Turri  wrote:
> 
>   On 28 January 2018 at 12:42, Denys Stephens <[1]denyssteph...@sky.com>
>   wrote:
> 
>   Dear Matteo,
> 
>   Thanks for your email! The subject of the planned Cherbury facsimile
>   was discussed at the Lute Society committee meeting held last December,
>   and there was still strong interest in publishing a hard copy facsimile
>   at that time. However, it wasn't known then that the museum would be
>   offering a PDF copy of the manuscript, and that may change views within
>   the committee about the viability of a hard copy edition. So I'm afraid
>   that I can't give you a definitive answer at the moment, but hopefully
>   a decision will be made on this later this year. A great deal of work
>   has been done by the society on the introductory material for the
>   facsimile, and I feel sure that this will be made available by the
>   society in some form in the not too distant future.
> 
> 
>   Best wishes,
> 
> 
>   Denys Stephens
> 
> 
>   From: Matteo Turri [mailto:[2]matteo.o.tu...@gmail.com]
>   Sent: 27 January 2018 13:21
>   To: [3]denyssteph...@sky.com
>   Subject: Lord Herbert of Cherbury's Lutebook (now available as a
>   downlload)
> 
> 
>   Dear Denys,
> 
>   since the Fitzwilliam Museum makes available a download of the
>   facsimile of the Lord Herbert of Cherbury's Lutebook - for £25.00 you
>   get access to "a free download" [sic]   - , I was wondering when the
>   Lute Society will publish its edition of the manuscript.
> 
>   Best regards
> 
>   Matteo Turri
> 
>   On 31 January 2018 at 11:54, Rainer <[4]rads.bera_g...@t-online.de>
>   wrote:
> 
> I seem to remember that the English LS had announced a facsimile
> edition.
> Rainer
> On 31.01.2018 11:19, G. C. wrote:
> 
> Yes, 25 pounds for a "free download" :D
> G.
> On Wed, Jan 31, 2018 at 11:12 AM, Rainer
> <[1][5]rads.bera_g...@t-online.de> wrote:
>   Have you received a reply?
>   Rainer
>   On 20.01.2018 10:52, Matteo Turri wrote:
>   We are pleased to offer complete digital copies of the
> following
>   manuscripts from the Fitzwilliam collection, supplied in
> pdf
>   format
>   and available via a free download or on CD.
>   Cost: £25.00 +vat per manuscript (inc. postage where
> necessary).
>   As I understand it, it's either a free download for the
> pdf or
>   £25 for
>   the CD.
>   I just sent them an email - we'll see.
>   Matteo
>   To get on or off this list see list information at
>   [2][6]http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html
> --
> References
> 1. mailto:[7]rads.bera_g...@t-online.de
> 2. [8]http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html
> 
>   --
> 
> References
> 
>   Visible links
>   1. mailto:denyssteph...@sky.com
>   2. mailto:matteo.o.tu...@gmail.com
>   3. mailto:denyssteph...@sky.com
>   4. mailto:rads.bera_g...@t-online.de
>   5. mailto:rads.bera_g...@t-online.de
>   6. http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html
>   7. mailto:rads.bera_g...@t-online.de
>   8. http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html
> 
>   Hidden links:
>  10. 
> https://mail.google.com/mail/u/0/#m_-186476389848586657_DAB4FAD8-2DD7-40BB-A1B8-4E2AA1F9FDF2
> 


--

[LUTE] Re: Cherbury lute book

[Matteo Turri]

   On 28 January 2018 at 12:42, Denys Stephens <[1]denyssteph...@sky.com>
   wrote:

   Dear Matteo,

   Thanks for your email! The subject of the planned Cherbury facsimile
   was discussed at the Lute Society committee meeting held last December,
   and there was still strong interest in publishing a hard copy facsimile
   at that time. However, it wasn't known then that the museum would be
   offering a PDF copy of the manuscript, and that may change views within
   the committee about the viability of a hard copy edition. So I'm afraid
   that I can't give you a definitive answer at the moment, but hopefully
   a decision will be made on this later this year. A great deal of work
   has been done by the society on the introductory material for the
   facsimile, and I feel sure that this will be made available by the
   society in some form in the not too distant future.


   Best wishes,


   Denys Stephens


   From: Matteo Turri [mailto:[2]matteo.o.tu...@gmail.com]
   Sent: 27 January 2018 13:21
   To: [3]denyssteph...@sky.com
   Subject: Lord Herbert of Cherbury's Lutebook (now available as a
   downlload)


   Dear Denys,

   since the Fitzwilliam Museum makes available a download of the
   facsimile of the Lord Herbert of Cherbury's Lutebook - for £25.00 you
   get access to "a free download" [sic]   - , I was wondering when the
   Lute Society will publish its edition of the manuscript.

   Best regards

   Matteo Turri

   On 31 January 2018 at 11:54, Rainer <[4]rads.bera_g...@t-online.de>
   wrote:

 I seem to remember that the English LS had announced a facsimile
 edition.
 Rainer
 On 31.01.2018 11:19, G. C. wrote:

 Yes, 25 pounds for a "free download" :D
 G.
 On Wed, Jan 31, 2018 at 11:12 AM, Rainer
 <[1][5]rads.bera_g...@t-online.de> wrote:
   Have you received a reply?
   Rainer
   On 20.01.2018 10:52, Matteo Turri wrote:
   We are pleased to offer complete digital copies of the
 following
   manuscripts from the Fitzwilliam collection, supplied in
 pdf
   format
   and available via a free download or on CD.
   Cost: £25.00 +vat per manuscript (inc. postage where
 necessary).
   As I understand it, it's either a free download for the
 pdf or
   £25 for
   the CD.
   I just sent them an email - we'll see.
   Matteo
   To get on or off this list see list information at
   [2][6]http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html
 --
 References
 1. mailto:[7]rads.bera_g...@t-online.de
 2. [8]http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html

   --

References

   Visible links
   1. mailto:denyssteph...@sky.com
   2. mailto:matteo.o.tu...@gmail.com
   3. mailto:denyssteph...@sky.com
   4. mailto:rads.bera_g...@t-online.de
   5. mailto:rads.bera_g...@t-online.de
   6. http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html
   7. mailto:rads.bera_g...@t-online.de
   8. http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html

   Hidden links:
  10. 
https://mail.google.com/mail/u/0/#m_-186476389848586657_DAB4FAD8-2DD7-40BB-A1B8-4E2AA1F9FDF2

[LUTE] Re: Cherbury lute book

[spiffys84121]

   Ya, I've been waiting decades now (I think) for the cherbury manuscript
   to be published.

   Sterling Price

   Sent from my Verizon, Samsung Galaxy smartphone

    Original message 
   From: Matthew Daillie <dail...@club-internet.fr>
   Date: 1/31/18 4:26 AM (GMT-07:00)
   To: Lutelist <lute@cs.dartmouth.edu>
   Subject: [LUTE] Re: Cherbury lute book

   The last I heard all the hard work had been done but they were waiting
   to break even on the Matthew Holmes manuscript before publishing. This
   was already some time ago.
   Best,
   Matthew
   On 31/01/2018 11:54, Rainer wrote:
   > I seem to remember that the English LS had announced a facsimile
   edition.
   >
   > Rainer
   To get on or off this list see list information at
   http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html

[LUTE] Re: Cherbury lute book

[Jean-Marie Poirier]

No significant progress so far...

Jean-Marie

--
 
>The last I heard all the hard work had been done but they were waiting 
>to break even on the Matthew Holmes manuscript before publishing. This 
>was already some time ago.
>
>Best,
>
>Matthew
>
>On 31/01/2018 11:54, Rainer wrote:
>> I seem to remember that the English LS had announced a facsimile edition.
>>
>> Rainer 
>
>
>
>
>To get on or off this list see list information at
>http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html

[LUTE] Re: Cherbury lute book

[Matthew Daillie]

The last I heard all the hard work had been done but they were waiting 
to break even on the Matthew Holmes manuscript before publishing. This 
was already some time ago.


Best,

Matthew

On 31/01/2018 11:54, Rainer wrote:

I seem to remember that the English LS had announced a facsimile edition.

Rainer 





To get on or off this list see list information at
http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html

[LUTE] Re: Cherbury lute book

[G. C.]

   Dear Ralph,
   A quick search of the "Digitale Bibliothek" doesn't seem to show any
   "new" lute related material though. Have you found any?
   Best
   G.

   On Wed, Jan 31, 2018 at 11:30 AM, Ralf Mattes <[1]r...@mh-freiburg.de>
   wrote:

 Am Mittwoch, 31. Januar 2018 11:19 CET, "G. C."
 <[2]kalei...@gmail.com> schrieb:
 > Yes, 25 pounds for a "free download" :D
 Well, technically speaking, you are free to download (and pay!) or
 not ;-)
 In such moments I'm glad to live in a country where libraries still
 remember what their purpose is.
 BTW, looks like Munich just finished digitizing all their tablature
 manuscripts.
  Cheers, Ralf Mattes
 To get on or off this list see list information at
 [3]http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html

   --

References

   1. mailto:r...@mh-freiburg.de
   2. mailto:kalei...@gmail.com
   3. http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html

[LUTE] Re: Cherbury lute book

[Rainer]

Tu felix Germania :)

Rainer

On 31.01.2018 11:30, Ralf Mattes wrote:
  
Am Mittwoch, 31. Januar 2018 11:19 CET, "G. C."  schrieb:
  

Yes, 25 pounds for a "free download" :D


Well, technically speaking, you are free to download (and pay!) or not ;-)

In such moments I'm glad to live in a country where libraries still remember 
what their purpose is.
BTW, looks like Munich just finished digitizing all their tablature manuscripts.

  Cheers, Ralf Mattes






To get on or off this list see list information at
http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html

[LUTE] Re: Cherbury lute book

[Rainer]

I seem to remember that the English LS had announced a facsimile edition.

Rainer

On 31.01.2018 11:19, G. C. wrote:

Yes, 25 pounds for a "free download" :D
G.

On Wed, Jan 31, 2018 at 11:12 AM, Rainer
<[1]rads.bera_g...@t-online.de> wrote:

  Have you received a reply?
  Rainer
  On 20.01.2018 10:52, Matteo Turri wrote:

  We are pleased to offer complete digital copies of the following
  manuscripts from the Fitzwilliam collection, supplied in pdf
  format
  and available via a free download or on CD.
  Cost: £25.00 +vat per manuscript (inc. postage where necessary).
  As I understand it, it's either a free download for the pdf or
  £25 for
  the CD.
  I just sent them an email - we'll see.
  Matteo

  To get on or off this list see list information at
  [2]http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html

--

References

1. mailto:rads.bera_g...@t-online.de
2. http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html

[LUTE] Re: Cherbury lute book

[Ralf Mattes]

 
Am Mittwoch, 31. Januar 2018 11:19 CET, "G. C."  schrieb: 
 
>Yes, 25 pounds for a "free download" :D

Well, technically speaking, you are free to download (and pay!) or not ;-)

In such moments I'm glad to live in a country where libraries still remember 
what their purpose is.
BTW, looks like Munich just finished digitizing all their tablature manuscripts.

 Cheers, Ralf Mattes






To get on or off this list see list information at
http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html

[LUTE] Re: Cherbury lute book

[G. C.]

   Yes, 25 pounds for a "free download" :D
   G.

   On Wed, Jan 31, 2018 at 11:12 AM, Rainer
   <[1]rads.bera_g...@t-online.de> wrote:

 Have you received a reply?
 Rainer
 On 20.01.2018 10:52, Matteo Turri wrote:

 We are pleased to offer complete digital copies of the following
 manuscripts from the Fitzwilliam collection, supplied in pdf
 format
 and available via a free download or on CD.
 Cost: £25.00 +vat per manuscript (inc. postage where necessary).
 As I understand it, it's either a free download for the pdf or
 £25 for
 the CD.
 I just sent them an email - we'll see.
 Matteo

 To get on or off this list see list information at
 [2]http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html

   --

References

   1. mailto:rads.bera_g...@t-online.de
   2. http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html

[LUTE] Re: Cherbury lute book

[Rainer]

Have you received a reply?

Rainer

On 20.01.2018 10:52, Matteo Turri wrote:

We are pleased to offer complete digital copies of the following
manuscripts from the Fitzwilliam collection, supplied in pdf format
and available via a free download or on CD.

Cost: £25.00 +vat per manuscript (inc. postage where necessary).

As I understand it, it's either a free download for the pdf or £25 for
the CD.
I just sent them an email - we'll see.
Matteo




To get on or off this list see list information at
http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html

[LUTE] Re: Cherbury lute book

[Matteo Turri]

   We are pleased to offer complete digital copies of the following
   manuscripts from the Fitzwilliam collection, supplied in pdf format
   and available via a free download or on CD.

   Cost: £25.00 +vat per manuscript (inc. postage where necessary).

   As I understand it, it's either a free download for the pdf or £25 for
   the CD.
   I just sent them an email - we'll see.
   Matteo
   On 20 January 2018 at 00:24, G. C. <[1]kalei...@gmail.com> wrote:

There is such divergent policy when it comes to lute manuscripts
nowadays. One has only to look at
[1]Facsimile-Links
to see how the different libraries measure out their generosity.
 And
how easily accessible they make their manuscripts. (Easy full PDF
download at a click, or hard, one page at the time, and sometimes
 not
even that).
The huge ones in Germany, England, France and Spain are
 incredibly
professional and generous,
while the smaller ones, (sometimes also holding very interesting
manuscripts) are more restrictive and perhaps ask a fee.
The Fitzwilliam asking 25 ̢  for a copy of Cherbury, puts them
 on the
top end, (as if they were offering an edited modern paper
 edition) and
the Czech National Library, f. ex. don't even answer any mail
inquieries.
La nota escrita e come la vita :D
G.
On Fri, Jan 19, 2018 at 11:27 PM, Alain Veylit
<[2][2]al...@musickshandmade.com> wrote:
  The Herb of Cherb lute book seems to be available in PDF format
 from
  the Fitzwilliam against a small-ish fee:
  [3][3]http://www.fitzmuseum.cam.ac.uk/aboutus/imagelibrary/pro
 ducts
  Anybody got it and can tell us more about that digital copy?
  Alain
  To get on or off this list see list information at
  [4][4]http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html
--
 References
1. [5]http://www.jobringmann.de/facsimile-links
2. mailto:[6]al...@musickshandmade.com
3. [7]http://www.fitzmuseum.cam.ac.u
 k/aboutus/imagelibrary/products
4. [8]http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html

   --

References

   1. mailto:kalei...@gmail.com
   2. mailto:al...@musickshandmade.com
   3. http://www.fitzmuseum.cam.ac.uk/aboutus/imagelibrary/products
   4. http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html
   5. http://www.jobringmann.de/facsimile-links
   6. mailto:al...@musickshandmade.com
   7. http://www.fitzmuseum.cam.ac.uk/aboutus/imagelibrary/products
   8. http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html

[LUTE] Re: Cherbury lute book

[G. C.]

   There is such divergent policy when it comes to lute manuscripts
   nowadays. One has only to look at
   [1]Facsimile-Links
   to see how the different libraries measure out their generosity. And
   how easily accessible they make their manuscripts. (Easy full PDF
   download at a click, or hard, one page at the time, and sometimes not
   even that).
   The huge ones in Germany, England, France and Spain are incredibly
   professional and generous,
   while the smaller ones, (sometimes also holding very interesting
   manuscripts) are more restrictive and perhaps ask a fee.
   The Fitzwilliam asking 25 ⬠for a copy of Cherbury, puts them on the
   top end, (as if they were offering an edited modern paper edition) and
   the Czech National Library, f. ex. don't even answer any mail
   inquieries.
   La nota escrita e come la vita :D
   G.
   On Fri, Jan 19, 2018 at 11:27 PM, Alain Veylit
   <[2]al...@musickshandmade.com> wrote:

 The Herb of Cherb lute book seems to be available in PDF format from
 the Fitzwilliam against a small-ish fee:
 [3]http://www.fitzmuseum.cam.ac.uk/aboutus/imagelibrary/products
 Anybody got it and can tell us more about that digital copy?
 Alain
 To get on or off this list see list information at
 [4]http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html

   --

References

   1. http://www.jobringmann.de/facsimile-links
   2. mailto:al...@musickshandmade.com
   3. http://www.fitzmuseum.cam.ac.uk/aboutus/imagelibrary/products
   4. http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html

[LUTE] Re: Cherbury lute book

[Alain Veylit]

The Herb of Cherb lute book seems to be available in PDF format from the 
Fitzwilliam against a small-ish fee:


http://www.fitzmuseum.cam.ac.uk/aboutus/imagelibrary/products

Anybody got it and can tell us more about that digital copy?
Alain



To get on or off this list see list information at
http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html