Subject: Re: PR1.3 and Ogg-support
Erik Hovland wrote: I ran into the same problem. I did do the reinstall. But I had to also run 'tracker-processes -r' and then reboot to get my files seen. YMMV. Curious... While I was trying to diagnose the problem I looked at whether the tracker was finding the files OK and on my machine at least, it was - they were appearing in /home/user/.cache/tracker/file-meta.db and those already in a playlist could be played fine. -- Tony Green Ipswich, Suffolk, England www.beermad.org.uk/ www.suffolkcamra.co.uk/pubs/ * No Micro$oft products were used in the generation of this communication ___ maemo-users mailing list maemo-users@maemo.org https://lists.maemo.org/mailman/listinfo/maemo-users
PR1.3 and Ogg-support
Anybody who has Ogg-support may have noticed that their Ogg-Vorbis files no longer appear in the media player (though it can still play them if they're in a playlist). Bug 11511 (https://bugs.maemo.org/show_bug.cgi?id=11511) refers to this. The answer is to unistall and reinstall Ogg-support, though annoyingly both Mappero and Extra decoders support are dependent on Ogg-support, so they also need to be taken off and reinstalled. -- Tony Green Ipswich, Suffolk, England www.beermad.org.uk/ www.suffolkcamra.co.uk/pubs/ * No Micro$oft products were used in the generation of this communication ___ maemo-users mailing list maemo-users@maemo.org https://lists.maemo.org/mailman/listinfo/maemo-users
Re: PR1.3 and Ogg-support
Tony Green kirjoitti ke 3. marraskuuta 2010 11:02:04: Anybody who has Ogg-support may have noticed that their Ogg-Vorbis files no longer appear in the media player (though it can still play them if they're in a playlist). Bug 11511 (https://bugs.maemo.org/show_bug.cgi?id=11511) refers to this. The answer is to unistall and reinstall Ogg-support, though annoyingly both Mappero and Extra decoders support are dependent on Ogg-support, so they also need to be taken off and reinstalled. I had this problem long before PR1.3. Could not find any fix, so I just left the problem be, but now tested to reinstall ogg-support (apt-get --purge remove ogg-support apt-get install ogg-support) and I see the ogg files again in the mediaplayer. Thanks! - Petteri -- ___. / \ .___ Y/|\ | 0 o / /|\Y '^^V /|\ 'v'^^' ___ maemo-users mailing list maemo-users@maemo.org https://lists.maemo.org/mailman/listinfo/maemo-users
Re: PR1.3 and Ogg-support
On Wed, Nov 3, 2010 at 4:02 AM, Tony Green t...@beermad.org.uk wrote: Anybody who has Ogg-support may have noticed that their Ogg-Vorbis files no longer appear in the media player (though it can still play them if they're in a playlist). Bug 11511 (https://bugs.maemo.org/show_bug.cgi?id=11511) refers to this. The answer is to unistall and reinstall Ogg-support, though annoyingly both Mappero and Extra decoders support are dependent on Ogg-support, so they also need to be taken off and reinstalled. I ran into the same problem. I did do the reinstall. But I had to also run 'tracker-processes -r' and then reboot to get my files seen. YMMV. E -- Erik Hovland e...@hovland.org http://hovland.org/ ___ maemo-users mailing list maemo-users@maemo.org https://lists.maemo.org/mailman/listinfo/maemo-users
Re: Ogg support
Tuomas Kulve wrote: Media Player doesn't allow you to open ogg files directly but when the Metalayer Crawler adds your oggs to the Library then you can play the oggs from there with the Media Player. Metalayer-crawler is the first thing I disable and remove after reflashing my N800. It is evil and literally kills battery life and the life of flash devices. You should not have to rely on the Metalayer-crawler to play ogg, because until Nokia/Maemo fix the memory/processor usage issues with the crawler, people like me are going to gain root access and remove it. M ___ maemo-users mailing list maemo-users@maemo.org https://lists.maemo.org/mailman/listinfo/maemo-users
[Fwd: Error in email to twine.com (was Re: Re: Ogg support)]
Anyone got an idea what on earth this is on about? Has somebody subscribed with an email address that would generate this kind of junk? M Original Message Subject:Error in email to twine.com (was Re: Re: Ogg support) Date: Mon, 31 Mar 2008 04:22:18 -0500 (CDT) From: Twine [EMAIL PROTECTED] To: Matt Emson [EMAIL PROTECTED] Twine Tie it all Together http://www.twine.com:4242/ Dear Twine user, There was a problem sending your email: The message was not from an email address of a Twine user. Click here http://www.twine.com:4242/account/changeContactInformation to add the address [EMAIL PROTECTED] to your Twine account, or use an email address which you've already registered with Twine to post by mail to a twine. Sorry for any inconvenience caused. Cheers, the Twine team. Copyright © Radar Networks Inc.410 Townsend Street Suite 150 | San Francisco, California 94107 Terms of Use http://www.twine.com:4242/legal | Privacy http://www.twine.com:4242/privacy | Contact Support mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] ___ maemo-users mailing list maemo-users@maemo.org https://lists.maemo.org/mailman/listinfo/maemo-users
Re: [Fwd: Error in email to twine.com (was Re: Re: Ogg support)]
Matt Emson wrote: Anyone got an idea what on earth this is on about? Has somebody subscribed with an email address that would generate this kind of junk? I've also been getting them. Perhaps whoever maintains the mail list can remove whatever user in on twine.com -- Use OpenOffice.org http://www.openoffice.org ___ maemo-users mailing list maemo-users@maemo.org https://lists.maemo.org/mailman/listinfo/maemo-users
Re: [Fwd: Error in email to twine.com (was Re: Re: Ogg support)]
On Mon, Mar 31, 2008 at 07:35:42AM -0400, James Knott wrote: Matt Emson wrote: Anyone got an idea what on earth this is on about? Has somebody subscribed with an email address that would generate this kind of junk? I've also been getting them. Perhaps whoever maintains the mail list can remove whatever user in on twine.com Yes, please. It's obnoxious to subscribe to a public list with an email from a provider that requires each sender to jump through silly hoops to get those emails delivered. Marius Gedminas -- You can't spell evil without vi. signature.asc Description: Digital signature ___ maemo-users mailing list maemo-users@maemo.org https://lists.maemo.org/mailman/listinfo/maemo-users
Re: [Fwd: Error in email to twine.com (was Re: Re: Ogg support)]
On Mon, Mar 31, 2008 at 2:51 PM, Marius Gedminas [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: On Mon, Mar 31, 2008 at 07:35:42AM -0400, James Knott wrote: Matt Emson wrote: Anyone got an idea what on earth this is on about? Has somebody subscribed with an email address that would generate this kind of junk? I've also been getting them. Perhaps whoever maintains the mail list can remove whatever user in on twine.com Yes, please. It's obnoxious to subscribe to a public list with an email from a provider that requires each sender to jump through silly hoops to get those emails delivered. Marius Gedminas -- You can't spell evil without vi. I haven't been able to post new messages to this list for a week because of Twine. I refuse to register with another service like that. /Henrik ___ maemo-users mailing list maemo-users@maemo.org https://lists.maemo.org/mailman/listinfo/maemo-users
Ogg support
I've just installed ogg support on my N800, running OS2008. When I try to play an ogg file, I get asked what application to use. I select Media Player (ogg) and the file plays. I can also open mp3 files with the same player. However, whne in the regular player, I cannot play ogg. Is there any way to associate ogg files with the media player, so that they play like an mp3 would? tnx jk -- Use OpenOffice.org http://www.openoffice.org ___ maemo-users mailing list maemo-users@maemo.org https://lists.maemo.org/mailman/listinfo/maemo-users
Re: Ogg support
James Knott wrote: I've just installed ogg support on my N800, running OS2008. When I try to play an ogg file, I get asked what application to use. I select Media Player (ogg) and the file plays. I can also open mp3 files with the same player. However, whne in the regular player, I cannot play ogg. Is there any way to associate ogg files with the media player, so that they play like an mp3 would? Media Player (ogg) is the same executable as Media Player, just a separate desktop file because of the mime types. Media Player doesn't allow you to open ogg files directly but when the Metalayer Crawler adds your oggs to the Library then you can play the oggs from there with the Media Player. -- Tuomas signature.asc Description: OpenPGP digital signature ___ maemo-users mailing list maemo-users@maemo.org https://lists.maemo.org/mailman/listinfo/maemo-users
Re: Ogg support
Tuomas Kulve wrote: James Knott wrote: I've just installed ogg support on my N800, running OS2008. When I try to play an ogg file, I get asked what application to use. I select Media Player (ogg) and the file plays. I can also open mp3 files with the same player. However, whne in the regular player, I cannot play ogg. Is there any way to associate ogg files with the media player, so that they play like an mp3 would? Media Player (ogg) is the same executable as Media Player, just a separate desktop file because of the mime types. Media Player doesn't allow you to open ogg files directly but when the Metalayer Crawler adds your oggs to the Library then you can play the oggs from there with the Media Player. It's found the files, but I noticed the player now displays the file extenstion for .ogg files, but not .mp3. Why the difference? Any way to turn it off for .ogg too? tnx jk -- Use OpenOffice.org http://www.openoffice.org ___ maemo-users mailing list maemo-users@maemo.org https://lists.maemo.org/mailman/listinfo/maemo-users
This may account for lack of ogg support by Nokia
http://arstechnica.com/news.ars/post/20071210-nokia-wants-w3c-to-remove-out-ogg-from-upcoming-html5-standard.html ___ maemo-users mailing list maemo-users@maemo.org https://lists.maemo.org/mailman/listinfo/maemo-users
Re: Aw: Re: Steve's Ranty Review #1: N800 ogg support
ext Frederic Crozat [EMAIL PROTECTED] writes: Le mardi 30 octobre 2007 à 10:58 +0100, Tu-zrz a écrit : Would it make sense to add a table with different AP to document which AP works with setting xyz unter itos 200x and which will not? I don't have any objection :) I started to combine a list of problematic APs some time ago, but gave up because it was just too much work for one person. The bugs depend on model, software version, hardware version and what not so the list is going to be huge. But I think that a community effort might work, because everyone can contribute and it's not burden of one individual. -- Kalle Valo ___ maemo-users mailing list maemo-users@maemo.org https://lists.maemo.org/mailman/listinfo/maemo-users
Re: Aw: Re: Steve's Ranty Review #1: N800 ogg support
Le lundi 05 novembre 2007 à 08:55 +0200, Kalle Valo a écrit : ext Frederic Crozat [EMAIL PROTECTED] writes: Le mardi 30 octobre 2007 à 10:58 +0100, Tu-zrz a écrit : Would it make sense to add a table with different AP to document which AP works with setting xyz unter itos 200x and which will not? I don't have any objection :) I started to combine a list of problematic APs some time ago, but gave up because it was just too much work for one person. The bugs depend on model, software version, hardware version and what not so the list is going to be huge. Feel free to either dump it unformatted on wiki or send it to me by emails and I'll format it for wiki. But I think that a community effort might work, because everyone can contribute and it's not burden of one individual. Exactly :) -- Frédéric Crozat ___ maemo-users mailing list maemo-users@maemo.org https://lists.maemo.org/mailman/listinfo/maemo-users
Re: Steve's Ranty Review #1: N800 ogg support
Le mardi 30 octobre 2007 à 09:36 +0200, Kalle Valo a écrit : ext Frédéric Crozat [EMAIL PROTECTED] writes: My AP (Freebox, an ISP set-top-box) seems to support WLAN PSM properly. If you have problems WLAN standby times I'm not yet convinced that your AP work correctly. After more tests, it appears both my AP don't support full PSM :( I'm curious, what tests failed? For Freebox, both tests, but ping one was really visible. And I noticed I got much better network response for browsing and so on since I set n800 back to default PSM timeout. I'll try to lower default value progressively to see if I can increase power saving while keeping network working. I couldn't extensively test arping on Fonera because it is using its own subnet (and I only have one Wifi element at home). And I need to reconfigure some routing to get ping working as expected. I'll report later about my progress. I've taken the liberty to write a summary of the various informations you gave here about PSM and how to change it on Maemo wiki. Feel free to fix errors I might have introduced : https://maemo.org/community/wiki/wifipsm/ Excellent, thank you! I have been planning to do that, but never managed to find time for that. I will try to add more information to the page at some stage. Great. I tried disabling Wii and it didn't bring any improvement, since PSM is really a problem for both my AP. I'll contact my ISP for the AP inside Freebox, maybe they can do something about it (it is using Ralink 2661 chipset). Feel free to add me as a technical contact. I don't know what is the exact problem with your AP, but at least I can explain to the manufacturer what they should support. Thanks, I'll add your email in the bug report (sorry, it is in french but it might interest other people on this mailing list) : http://bugs.freeplayer.org/task/2538 -- Frederic Crozat [EMAIL PROTECTED] ___ maemo-users mailing list maemo-users@maemo.org https://lists.maemo.org/mailman/listinfo/maemo-users
Re: Steve's Ranty Review #1: N800 ogg support
ext Frédéric Crozat [EMAIL PROTECTED] writes: My AP (Freebox, an ISP set-top-box) seems to support WLAN PSM properly. If you have problems WLAN standby times I'm not yet convinced that your AP work correctly. After more tests, it appears both my AP don't support full PSM :( I'm curious, what tests failed? Anyway, I've used your tests with full PSM and it appears both Freebox and Fonera (as noticed by Riku in another reply) have problems with it :( Too bad :( I've taken the liberty to write a summary of the various informations you gave here about PSM and how to change it on Maemo wiki. Feel free to fix errors I might have introduced : https://maemo.org/community/wiki/wifipsm/ Excellent, thank you! I have been planning to do that, but never managed to find time for that. I will try to add more information to the page at some stage. I tried disabling Wii and it didn't bring any improvement, since PSM is really a problem for both my AP. I'll contact my ISP for the AP inside Freebox, maybe they can do something about it (it is using Ralink 2661 chipset). Feel free to add me as a technical contact. I don't know what is the exact problem with your AP, but at least I can explain to the manufacturer what they should support. -- Kalle Valo ___ maemo-users mailing list maemo-users@maemo.org https://lists.maemo.org/mailman/listinfo/maemo-users
Aw: Re: Steve's Ranty Review #1: N800 ogg support
- Ursprüngliche Mitteilung - Von: Kalle Valo [EMAIL PROTECTED] An: ext Frédéric Crozat [EMAIL PROTECTED] Cc: maemo-users maemo-users@maemo.org Gesendet: Di., 30. Okt. 2007 08:36:01 CET Betreff: Re: Steve's Ranty Review #1: N800 ogg support ext Frédéric Crozat [EMAIL PROTECTED] writes: My AP (Freebox, an ISP set-top-box) seems to support WLAN PSM properly. If you have problems WLAN standby times I'm not yet convinced that your AP work correctly. After more tests, it appears both my AP don't support full PSM :( I'm curious, what tests failed? Anyway, I've used your tests with full PSM and it appears both Freebox and Fonera (as noticed by Riku in another reply) have problems with it :( Too bad :( I've taken the liberty to write a summary of the various informations you gave here about PSM and how to change it on Maemo wiki. Feel free to fix errors I might have introduced : https://maemo.org/community/wiki/wifipsm/ Excellent, thank you! I have been planning to do that, but never managed to find time for that. I will try to add more information to the page at some stage. I tried disabling Wii and it didn't bring any improvement, since PSM is really a problem for both my AP. I'll contact my ISP for the AP inside Freebox, maybe they can do something about it (it is using Ralink 2661 chipset). Feel free to add me as a technical contact. I don't know what is the exact problem with your AP, but at least I can explain to the manufacturer what they should support. -- Kalle Valo ___ Would it make sense to add a table with different AP to document which AP works with setting xyz unter itos 200x and which will not? I could add information about optimized psm settings for Siemens sx-541 AP for n800 and 770 HE. That would give us an overview. What do you think? Regards Krischan ___ maemo-users mailing list maemo-users@maemo.org https://lists.maemo.org/mailman/listinfo/maemo-users
Re: Steve's Ranty Review #1: N800 ogg support
Le mardi 30 octobre 2007 à 09:02 +0100, Frederic Crozat a écrit : Le mardi 30 octobre 2007 à 09:36 +0200, Kalle Valo a écrit : ext Frédéric Crozat [EMAIL PROTECTED] writes: I tried disabling Wii and it didn't bring any improvement, since PSM is really a problem for both my AP. I'll contact my ISP for the AP inside Freebox, maybe they can do something about it (it is using Ralink 2661 chipset). Feel free to add me as a technical contact. I don't know what is the exact problem with your AP, but at least I can explain to the manufacturer what they should support. Thanks, I'll add your email in the bug report (sorry, it is in french but it might interest other people on this mailing list) : http://bugs.freeplayer.org/task/2538 I just got a reply from them : they say they debugged PSM intensively when they started proposing SIP mobile phones, so it should be working. And of course, they are asking if they can get a n800 to debug :) (they are geeks, like all of us :p ) I'll see if I can try to work as the test guy between you and them ;) -- Frederic Crozat [EMAIL PROTECTED] ___ maemo-users mailing list maemo-users@maemo.org https://lists.maemo.org/mailman/listinfo/maemo-users
Re: Steve's Ranty Review #1: N800 ogg support
Le jeudi 25 octobre 2007 à 08:05 +0300, Kalle Valo a écrit : ext Frédéric Crozat [EMAIL PROTECTED] writes: o Buggy AP which does not support WLAN PSM properly. My AP (Freebox, an ISP set-top-box) seems to support WLAN PSM properly. If you have problems WLAN standby times I'm not yet convinced that your AP work correctly. After more tests, it appears both my AP don't support full PSM :( I also have a Fonera. Is there any way to check, from n800 side, if WLAN PSM isn't working properly ? (I've enabled full PSM and pings are still working) Usually I first try that unicast is working correctly with ping from network (execute this from a PC connected to the AP, either with Ethernet or WLAN): ping -i 2 192.168.1.123 Next I will check broadcast with arping (also from a PC, need to be in same in subnet): arping -I eth0 -b 192.168.1.123 Packet loss should be zero percent in both cases. Next I measure the power consumption, but one needs special hardware for that. Unfortunately I don't have any ideas how you could do that. Maybe in future kernel some info in sysfs ? :) If I spot any problems with these tests, I use a wireless sniffer for analysis. I have found that madwifi driver and Wireshark are the most suitable for me. Unfortunately, I don't have PC with wifi at home. Anyway, I've used your tests with full PSM and it appears both Freebox and Fonera (as noticed by Riku in another reply) have problems with it :( I've taken the liberty to write a summary of the various informations you gave here about PSM and how to change it on Maemo wiki. Feel free to fix errors I might have introduced : https://maemo.org/community/wiki/wifipsm/ o Lots of broadcast and multicast packets on the network (like Windows samba broadcasts). No Windows (nor Samba) on the network. However, I tried to run tcpdump on n800 to see what is going on. It seems Nintendo Wii standby mode is causing arp and DNS query, seen on n800, every 10 minutes. If it's only one ARP and DNS query, every 10 minutes is not that bad. Just of curiosity, who is issuing the DNS query? The Nintendo Wii device? N800 shouldn't see DNS requests made by other devices. DNS is unicast and N800 shouldn't see unicast packets between AP and other WLAN clients. I'll check again. Since I have two AP available, I'll try to configure both n800 and Wii to use separate networks, to check if it improves situation. Good idea. I tried disabling Wii and it didn't bring any improvement, since PSM is really a problem for both my AP. I'll contact my ISP for the AP inside Freebox, maybe they can do something about it (it is using Ralink 2661 chipset). Can we expect any improvement when changing WLAN power from 100mA to 10mA ? I have been told that it doesn't affect much (if at all). I recommend not to try that, it's not worth it. We have implemented it for regulatory purposes. Good to know. -- Frédéric Crozat ___ maemo-users mailing list maemo-users@maemo.org https://lists.maemo.org/mailman/listinfo/maemo-users
Re: Steve's Ranty Review #1: N800 ogg support
ext Marius Gedminas [EMAIL PROTECTED] writes: Just of curiosity, who is issuing the DNS query? The Nintendo Wii device? N800 shouldn't see DNS requests made by other devices. DNS is unicast and N800 shouldn't see unicast packets between AP and other WLAN clients. Doesn't multicast DNS use the same port and protocol as regular DNS? http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Zeroconf#Apple.27s_protocol:_Multicast_DNS.2FDNS-SD Good point. If it's MDNS then it's normal. But if it's normal unicast DNS requests origination from some other device, something is broken. -- Kalle Valo ___ maemo-users mailing list maemo-users@maemo.org https://lists.maemo.org/mailman/listinfo/maemo-users
Re: Steve's Ranty Review #1: N800 ogg support
Hi, mixing quotes (sorry). Yesterday I moved this debate to maemo-developers since the current topic about repositores and policies affects developers only. See Bugs at maemo for extras apps (was Re: Steve's Ranty Review...) http://lists.maemo.org/pipermail//maemo-developers/2007-October/012239.html It's difficult to follow efficiently both lists looking for topics relating to developers (specially if the threads in maemo-users end up discussing topics different than the subject). Then these issues need to be fixed. Failing to centralise the available packages negates a potential massive advantage (for users, Repositories mess: conclusions and actions http://lists.maemo.org/pipermail//maemo-developers/2007-October/012192.html Personally, I'd urge Nokia to find someone (who understands the issues of e.g. library packaging) to have a thorough read of Debian policy and come up with a maemo policy at least partly based on it - this will be necessary to ensure that everything in the repository or repositories will play friendly and DTRT. Do you know we have Debian maintainers (and I would say experts) in our team. btw a maemo packaging policy is underways, we are still polishing details before share it for community review. -- Quim Gil - http://maemo.org ___ maemo-users mailing list maemo-users@maemo.org https://lists.maemo.org/mailman/listinfo/maemo-users
Re: Steve's Ranty Review #1: N800 ogg support
On Thu, Oct 25, 2007 at 08:05:22AM +0300, Kalle Valo wrote: It seems Nintendo Wii standby mode is causing arp and DNS query, seen on n800, every 10 minutes. If it's only one ARP and DNS query, every 10 minutes is not that bad. Just of curiosity, who is issuing the DNS query? The Nintendo Wii device? N800 shouldn't see DNS requests made by other devices. DNS is unicast and N800 shouldn't see unicast packets between AP and other WLAN clients. Doesn't multicast DNS use the same port and protocol as regular DNS? http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Zeroconf#Apple.27s_protocol:_Multicast_DNS.2FDNS-SD Marius Gedminas -- I am right now in the process of reading the Xft source code (the suspense near the end of Chapter 7 is unbearable) [...] -- Juliusz Chroboczek signature.asc Description: Digital signature ___ maemo-users mailing list maemo-users@maemo.org https://lists.maemo.org/mailman/listinfo/maemo-users
Re: Steve's Ranty Review #1: N800 ogg support
According to Kemal Hadimli [EMAIL PROTECTED]: Some of the developers won't use the repositories no matter what you do, and as far as I can tell/analyze, the reasons are: - It's hard (well, not well-documented) to get access to, and to set up keys etc. - Distributing files from garage downloads are much easier (and can track download counts) They don't care about the advantages (easy rolling of releases and auto-installation of dependencies) because there are ways to get around them. Then they don't care about their users. End of story. The way to solve this is to make the repo more attractive. Make download counts available[1]. Make it easy to know *what* repo you should put your packages in. Make it clear that not using the repo is not socially acceptable. Make it clear what the requirements are to get into the repo. Make it easy. Now, I don't think there will ever be a time when everything (non-official Nokia) is in one repo. Even Debian has it's special purpose repos, such as backports.org. But for the most part, if your package isn't in the central Debian repo, it doesn't exist. Regards, Steve -- Steve Greenland The irony is that Bill Gates claims to be making a stable operating system and Linus Torvalds claims to be trying to take over the world. -- seen on the net ___ maemo-users mailing list maemo-users@maemo.org https://lists.maemo.org/mailman/listinfo/maemo-users
Re: Steve's Ranty Review #1: N800 ogg support
On 26/10/2007, at 10:57 AM, Steve Greenland wrote: According to Kemal Hadimli [EMAIL PROTECTED]: Some of the developers won't use the repositories no matter what you do, and as far as I can tell/analyze, the reasons are: - It's hard (well, not well-documented) to get access to, and to set up keys etc. - Distributing files from garage downloads are much easier (and can track download counts) Then these issues need to be fixed. Failing to centralise the available packages negates a potential massive advantage (for users, for developers, and for Nokia) of using Debian-style packages in the first place. It's been something that has bugged me massively since I first got my 770. Talk about snatching defeat from the jaws of victory... They don't care about the advantages (easy rolling of releases and auto-installation of dependencies) because there are ways to get around them. Then they don't care about their users. End of story. The way to solve this is to make the repo more attractive. Make download counts available[1]. Make it easy to know *what* repo you should put your packages in. Make it clear that not using the repo is not socially acceptable. Make it clear what the requirements are to get into the repo. Make it easy. Now, I don't think there will ever be a time when everything (non-official Nokia) is in one repo. Even Debian has it's special purpose repos, such as backports.org. But for the most part, if your package isn't in the central Debian repo, it doesn't exist. Steve is absolutely spot-on here, from start to finish. Personally, I'd urge Nokia to find someone (who understands the issues of e.g. library packaging) to have a thorough read of Debian policy and come up with a maemo policy at least partly based on it - this will be necessary to ensure that everything in the repository or repositories will play friendly and DTRT. There may at first appear to be weirdnesses in the way Debian does things, but in general it's all there for a reason and has been carefully (and often painfully) considered, and found to work. There will be good reasons for doing things differently in some areas and perhaps for pitching it at a slightly different level, but be careful that these reasons are stated and understood internally at least. Cheers, Nick ___ maemo-users mailing list maemo-users@maemo.org https://lists.maemo.org/mailman/listinfo/maemo-users
Re: Steve's Ranty Review #1: N800 ogg support and the repository question
On Fri, Oct 19, 2007 at 04:30:50PM +, Steve Greenland wrote:
Probably the easiest workable solution is something like the Debian
unstable/testing process, whereby packages are uploaded to unstable, and
migrate to testing after meeting certain criteria (no new serious bugs,
installs with only other testing packages, etc.)
I'd like to point one [obvious] thing: Debian uses single bug tracking
system for all its packages, hence checking whether a package is having
serious problems is very easy. For packages in extras{,-testing}
repository this might not be the case.
Cheers
--
Misha
signature.asc
Description: Digital signature
___
maemo-users mailing list
maemo-users@maemo.org
https://lists.maemo.org/mailman/listinfo/maemo-users
Re: Steve's Ranty Review #1: N800 ogg support and the repository question
According to Mikhail Sobolev [EMAIL PROTECTED]:
On Fri, Oct 19, 2007 at 04:30:50PM +, Steve Greenland wrote:
Probably the easiest workable solution is something like the Debian
unstable/testing process, whereby packages are uploaded to unstable, and
migrate to testing after meeting certain criteria (no new serious bugs,
installs with only other testing packages, etc.)
I'd like to point one [obvious] thing: Debian uses single bug tracking
system for all its packages, hence checking whether a package is having
serious problems is very easy. For packages in extras{,-testing}
repository this might not be the case.
Well, that just means that there would need to be a single BTS for the
extra repository, which would be a good thing. Expecting users to track
down package specific bug trackers is absurd.
I understand Nokia need to keep a separate repo and BTS for official,
corporately supported, anything-else-will-make-your-tablet-explode
packages. So the community needs a seperate repo and BTS. But there
needs to be only one of these.
By only one, I don't mean to limit categorization such as bora vs.
mistral or (possibly) tested vs. unstable. But we don't need a doesn't
different websites with a dozen different BTS and three dozen different
variants of libgtk.
Of course, nobody is forced to use this hypothetical central repo. But
the current situation is not what I'd call user friendly.
Steve
--
Steve Greenland
The irony is that Bill Gates claims to be making a stable operating
system and Linus Torvalds claims to be trying to take over the
world. -- seen on the net
___
maemo-users mailing list
maemo-users@maemo.org
https://lists.maemo.org/mailman/listinfo/maemo-users
Re: Steve's Ranty Review #1: N800 ogg support
ext Frédéric Crozat [EMAIL PROTECTED] writes: o Buggy AP which does not support WLAN PSM properly. My AP (Freebox, an ISP set-top-box) seems to support WLAN PSM properly. If you have problems WLAN standby times I'm not yet convinced that your AP work correctly. I also have a Fonera. Is there any way to check, from n800 side, if WLAN PSM isn't working properly ? (I've enabled full PSM and pings are still working) Usually I first try that unicast is working correctly with ping from network (execute this from a PC connected to the AP, either with Ethernet or WLAN): ping -i 2 192.168.1.123 Next I will check broadcast with arping (also from a PC, need to be in same in subnet): arping -I eth0 -b 192.168.1.123 Packet loss should be zero percent in both cases. Next I measure the power consumption, but one needs special hardware for that. Unfortunately I don't have any ideas how you could do that. If I spot any problems with these tests, I use a wireless sniffer for analysis. I have found that madwifi driver and Wireshark are the most suitable for me. o distance to AP (WLAN background scan will kick in if the signal level is -75 dBm or less) Not a problem here, I'm in about 2 to 5 meters of AP. Ok, background can be ruled out. o Lots of broadcast and multicast packets on the network (like Windows samba broadcasts). No Windows (nor Samba) on the network. However, I tried to run tcpdump on n800 to see what is going on. It seems Nintendo Wii standby mode is causing arp and DNS query, seen on n800, every 10 minutes. If it's only one ARP and DNS query, every 10 minutes is not that bad. Just of curiosity, who is issuing the DNS query? The Nintendo Wii device? N800 shouldn't see DNS requests made by other devices. DNS is unicast and N800 shouldn't see unicast packets between AP and other WLAN clients. Since I have two AP available, I'll try to configure both n800 and Wii to use separate networks, to check if it improves situation. Good idea. Can we expect any improvement when changing WLAN power from 100mA to 10mA ? I have been told that it doesn't affect much (if at all). I recommend not to try that, it's not worth it. We have implemented it for regulatory purposes. -- Kalle Valo ___ maemo-users mailing list maemo-users@maemo.org https://lists.maemo.org/mailman/listinfo/maemo-users
Re: Steve's Ranty Review #1: N800 ogg support
ext Steve Greenland [EMAIL PROTECTED] writes: According to Marius Vollmer [EMAIL PROTECTED]: ext Marius Gedminas [EMAIL PROTECTED] writes: My personal pet peeve with the app manager is all those confirmation dialogs. Yeah, and there will be more in the future... There should be at least one before starting the operation, Please Ghod no. I confirmed the operation when I selected install or remove. We could maybe get rid of this confirmation dialog for operations that are activated from the toolbar button and the menu, but not when they are activated from the list view... hmm. I put that on my list. The obvious exception, of course, is attempting to remove some required package, or removing something that's going to break dependencies. The AM wont let you do that, not even in red-pill mode. and we can't get rid of the legal Notice dialog for non-certified software. How about letting me mark repos as okay by me... You can hack the configuration of the AM that tells it which catalogues are considered 'certified'. There is no UI for this, obviously, but look around in /etc/osso-application-manager. This only works for signed repositories, tho. When using the AM to install system software updates, there will be lots more: please take a backup, all applications will be closed, continue?, device will reboot, continue?, don't touch me while I do scary things to the kernel, maybe even more. We should try to combine these messages. This needs some thought -- in particular, what defines a system software update? A package with Maemo-Flags: system-update counts as a system update. System updates right now are based on meta-packages. There are more flags: reboot if you want a reboot after installing your package, close-apps if you want all apps to be closed before installing it, etc. The meta package for a system update will typically use something like Maemo-Flags: system-update, reboot, suggest-backup. We might need to extend this a bit to cover flashing of kernel and initfs in a nice way. ___ maemo-users mailing list maemo-users@maemo.org https://lists.maemo.org/mailman/listinfo/maemo-users
Re: Steve's Ranty Review #1: N800 ogg support
ext Steve Greenland [EMAIL PROTECTED] writes: According to Marius Vollmer [EMAIL PROTECTED]: How important is it to fix this? I'm working on the assumption that you would only activate Show all packages in an emergency, but would usually leave it off (precisely because it decreases the useability so much). The problem is that while in theory, I could just display all the packages in a particular cagetory, or even only the users/* categories, in practice the category stuff is so screwed up that the only way to find anything is browsing the all lists. Browsing the All category and the Show all packages settings are two different things. (I am not sure whether you are aware of that.) Activating the Show all packages setting will list all packages in the package database, between 1000 and 2000 or so. This is what is unacceptably slow. Deactivating Show all packages and browsing the All category should give packages in the small hundreds or so, and that should be OKish performace wise. No? This screwup isn't your fault, of course; it's the lack of having a standard policy document to guide developers. Even what there is isn't consistent. Consider the 3-.x Making a package for the Application Manager in maemo 3.x document. It says: The AI only shows packages in the user section. Thus, your Section: field in the control file should be of the form user/SUBSECTION, where SUBSECTION is arbitrary. SUBSECTION should be a nice capitalised, English word like Ringtones Then it shows examples like: # user/accessories Accessories # user/communication Communication So, what goes in the control file? user/accessories or user/Accessories or user/accessories Accessories? Two of the three violate the previous definition, and the examples don't even follow the form. You misunderstood. The list is not a list of examples, it is a list of predefined categories that you should use whenever possible. The predefined categories are also localized. I hope the document that you refer to is not screwed up. I will check myself. Writing policy (standards, basically) is hard, of course. (I was involved in a lot of the early Debian policy documentation.) But to have a working thirdparty developer community, it's necessary. A complete anarchy does not lead to good results. Yes, but the Application Manager is not the one enforcing policy. If it encounters a non-policy-conforming package, it will still show and install it if possible. (And no, not-installing packages that don't have the user/foo section marker is not about enforcing policy, it is about enabling a nice and non-confusing UI experience. :) At lot people miss the fact that the reason Debian packages have such a good reputation (compared to RPMs, particulary RPMs from the Redhat 5-8 era), has very little to do with the technology of .deb and a huge amount to do with the Debian policy effort. Yes, this point merits repeating. ___ maemo-users mailing list maemo-users@maemo.org https://lists.maemo.org/mailman/listinfo/maemo-users
Re: Steve's Ranty Review #1: N800 ogg support
ext Marius Vollmer [EMAIL PROTECTED] writes: I hope the document that you refer to is not screwed up. I will check myself. Nope, it's fine. Please read it again. :) ___ maemo-users mailing list maemo-users@maemo.org https://lists.maemo.org/mailman/listinfo/maemo-users
Re: Steve's Ranty Review #1: N800 ogg support
According to Marius Vollmer [EMAIL PROTECTED]: ext Steve Greenland [EMAIL PROTECTED] writes: According to Marius Vollmer [EMAIL PROTECTED]: How important is it to fix this? I'm working on the assumption that you would only activate Show all packages in an emergency, but would usually leave it off (precisely because it decreases the useability so much). The problem is that while in theory, I could just display all the packages in a particular cagetory, or even only the users/* categories, in practice the category stuff is so screwed up that the only way to find anything is browsing the all lists. Browsing the All category and the Show all packages settings are two different things. (I am not sure whether you are aware of that.) I was, but I set Show all packages a while ago, and had forgotten the distinction. I just disabled show all packages, and browsed all, and yes, it's much faster. But I'm a little baffled -- it still shows (some) lib* packages, which I would consider the first thing to filter out, since they'll be installed by dependencies, and there is little reason (for a non-developer, at least) to installa particular library. Then it shows examples like: # user/accessories Accessories # user/communication Communication So, what goes in the control file? user/accessories or user/Accessories or user/accessories Accessories? Two of the three violate the previous definition, and the examples don't even follow the form. You misunderstood. The list is not a list of examples, it is a list of predefined categories that you should use whenever possible. The predefined categories are also localized. Ah, I see your point. But the the predefined categories are still in conflict with the instructions, which say the sub-category should be capitalized. Thus, user/Accessories, not user/accessories. I understand that this may be an implicit exception for the pre-defined categories that are localized. But it is obviously confusing for the new reader; here are (some of) the categories currently listed on my N800 (this is with Show all packages re-enabled, but even with it disabled, I get all of these without the maemo or user prefix, and many more): maemo/Applications maemo/libs maemo/Utilities user/accessories user/Applications user/cli user/Commandline user/communications user/connectivity user/Daemon user/Daemons user/devel user/extras user/games user/graphics user/instantmessaging user/library user/libs user/Locales user/mics user/multimedia user/office user/other user/programming user/Protocols user/religion user/sound user/themes user/tools user/utils user/Web user/web Many (most?) of these are also duplicated without the user prefix; quite a few obviously come from the straight port of Debian package categories. Yes, but the Application Manager is not the one enforcing policy. If it encounters a non-policy-conforming package, it will still show and install it if possible. Oh, absolutely, and that's why I earlier wrote about it not being your fault. But part of the problem is the lack of the *limited* list of sections. You could do worse than to document the complete list of Debian sections, and say pick one of these, don't make up new ones. (I don't mean you in particular, Marius, but whatever group is writing these docs, and enforced (encouraged?) by whoever is maintaining the extras repo. Regards, Steve -- Steve Greenland The irony is that Bill Gates claims to be making a stable operating system and Linus Torvalds claims to be trying to take over the world. -- seen on the net ___ maemo-users mailing list maemo-users@maemo.org https://lists.maemo.org/mailman/listinfo/maemo-users
Re: Steve's Ranty Review #1: N800 ogg support
On 10/22/07, Steve Greenland [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: much faster. But I'm a little baffled -- it still shows (some) lib* packages, which I would consider the first thing to filter out, since they'll be installed by dependencies, and there is little reason (for a non-developer, at least) to installa particular library. Speaking of libs, why is the incompatible package error still there? IMO the app manager should just allow the installation of any category, not just user/*. This is a problem because some applications don't use the repository method, and installing the dependencies from the maemo garage is a problem. Then, users are instructed to switch to red pill mode by the application developers, or sometimes the app developers just repackage the libraries in the category user/libs so that the packages can be installed from the garage. Both should not happen, and the way to prevent it is to allow any category (or maybe just libs) to be installed manually from the app manager. Some of the developers won't use the repositories no matter what you do, and as far as I can tell/analyze, the reasons are: - It's hard (well, not well-documented) to get access to, and to set up keys etc. - Distributing files from garage downloads are much easier (and can track download counts) They don't care about the advantages (easy rolling of releases and auto-installation of dependencies) because there are ways to get around them. They can just open a thread in ITT and announce, and instruct people about the red pill mode if needed. And yeah, this bothers me. Red pill mode shouldn't be used by non-developers (or even non system developers) and there should be ways to install bare libs. You could keep a track of manually-(user-)installed libs and show them in the package list, and still hide the other (system) library packages. Of course a better way could be not to hide any packages, but introduce better organization/categorization in the app manager so nobody has to use the All option (and move it to the bottom too) yet still nobody sees system packages in the list, without ticking a checkbox in preferences or without going into the system packages category. Cheers -- Kemal ___ maemo-users mailing list maemo-users@maemo.org https://lists.maemo.org/mailman/listinfo/maemo-users
Re: Steve's Ranty Review #1: N800 ogg support
Le samedi 20 octobre 2007 à 10:24 +0300, Kalle Valo a écrit : ext Frederic Crozat [EMAIL PROTECTED] writes: Just curious : is the n800 really supposed to last days when connected via Wifi (with full WLAN Power Save mode enabled), without any disconnect timeout and anything doing network access on the wifi link ? Short answer: Yes, even with the default WLAN PSM settings. Thanks you. So, let's investigate to find what is causing those bad performance Long answer: It depends on your network. Here are few items which mostly affect WLAN power consumption: o N800 transmitting something periodically (once in a minute is not bad, once in a second is really bad, Google talk has 30s interval which is ok). I've disabled any program which might do network query in background. o Buggy AP which does not support WLAN PSM properly. My AP (Freebox, an ISP set-top-box) seems to support WLAN PSM properly. I also have a Fonera. Is there any way to check, from n800 side, if WLAN PSM isn't working properly ? (I've enabled full PSM and pings are still working) o distance to AP (WLAN background scan will kick in if the signal level is -75 dBm or less) Not a problem here, I'm in about 2 to 5 meters of AP. o Lots of broadcast and multicast packets on the network (like Windows samba broadcasts). No Windows (nor Samba) on the network. However, I tried to run tcpdump on n800 to see what is going on. It seems Nintendo Wii standby mode is causing arp and DNS query, seen on n800, every 10 minutes. Since I have two AP available, I'll try to configure both n800 and Wii to use separate networks, to check if it improves situation. Also WLAN settings (beacon and DTIM interval) affect power consumption, but not before the issues I have listed above are ruled out. And this was only about issues related to WLAN, if there are other processes waking up the CPU that will naturally affect the standby time. I've learned this the hard way with Canola last year, with my 770 :) Now, I make sure there is no server or background stuff running when doing tests.. For the background scan there are going to be some optimisations in OS2008, for example the limit will be lowered to -85 dBm. Wonderful. When I check battery applet (which is really great btw), I'm never sure if the in use time is applicable when being idle AND wifi connected. The applet does not provide WLAN standby time at all, sorry. Ok. I know I disable network auto-connect and set disconnect timeout to 5min because I had bad experience with first IT2007 version (before full WLAN Power Save mode gconf key were given here). Maybe I should try it again.. I think you should, you might be pleasently surprised. If not, I would guess that after a bit of investigation you might find what's causing the high power consumption. tcpdump is your friend. And if you have any questions, post them here. Can we expect any improvement when changing WLAN power from 100mA to 10mA ? -- Frédéric Crozat ___ maemo-users mailing list maemo-users@maemo.org https://lists.maemo.org/mailman/listinfo/maemo-users
Re: Steve's Ranty Review #1: N800 ogg support
ext Frederic Crozat [EMAIL PROTECTED] writes: Just curious : is the n800 really supposed to last days when connected via Wifi (with full WLAN Power Save mode enabled), without any disconnect timeout and anything doing network access on the wifi link ? Short answer: Yes, even with the default WLAN PSM settings. Long answer: It depends on your network. Here are few items which mostly affect WLAN power consumption: o N800 transmitting something periodically (once in a minute is not bad, once in a second is really bad, Google talk has 30s interval which is ok). o Buggy AP which does not support WLAN PSM properly. o distance to AP (WLAN background scan will kick in if the signal level is -75 dBm or less) o Lots of broadcast and multicast packets on the network (like Windows samba broadcasts). Also WLAN settings (beacon and DTIM interval) affect power consumption, but not before the issues I have listed above are ruled out. And this was only about issues related to WLAN, if there are other processes waking up the CPU that will naturally affect the standby time. For the background scan there are going to be some optimisations in OS2008, for example the limit will be lowered to -85 dBm. When I check battery applet (which is really great btw), I'm never sure if the in use time is applicable when being idle AND wifi connected. The applet does not provide WLAN standby time at all, sorry. I know I disable network auto-connect and set disconnect timeout to 5min because I had bad experience with first IT2007 version (before full WLAN Power Save mode gconf key were given here). Maybe I should try it again.. I think you should, you might be pleasently surprised. If not, I would guess that after a bit of investigation you might find what's causing the high power consumption. tcpdump is your friend. And if you have any questions, post them here. -- Kalle Valo ___ maemo-users mailing list maemo-users@maemo.org https://lists.maemo.org/mailman/listinfo/maemo-users
Re: Steve's Ranty Review #1: N800 ogg support
ext Krischan Keitsch [EMAIL PROTECTED] writes: It's a shame that there are so many broken APs on the market. I see lots of them when dealing with bug reports :( I guess WLAN Power Save Mode was really rare earlier, but fortunately nowadays it's getting more popular and AP manufactures have noticed the problem. Hi Kalle, I had a similar problem with my Siemens sx541 wlan dsl router using dhcp. The n800 keeps sending dhcp requests. That caused up to 20 - 30% cpu usage and drains the battery really fast. (See Bug 1627 Bug 1646) Switching to a fixed ip solved that problem for me. Yeah, if applications send lots of data, naturally that will increase power consumption dramatically. For these cases it would helpful if you could install tcpdump to the device and take a dump of traffic. You could do it like this: tcpdump -i wlan -w dhcp-1.cap And then attach dhcp-1.cap to the bug report. That would help a lot. -- Kalle Valo ___ maemo-users mailing list maemo-users@maemo.org https://lists.maemo.org/mailman/listinfo/maemo-users
Re: Steve's Ranty Review #1: N800 ogg support
On Friday 19 October 2007 03:51:29 Marius Vollmer wrote: ext Marius Gedminas [EMAIL PROTECTED] writes: My personal pet peeve with the app manager is all those confirmation dialogs. Yeah, and there will be more in the future... There should be at least one before starting the operation, and we can't get rid of the legal Notice dialog for non-certified software. (misc grumbling about lawyers and baby boomers) *grin* When using the AM to install system software updates, there will be lots more: please take a backup, all applications will be closed, continue?, device will reboot, continue?, don't touch me while I do scary things to the kernel, maybe even more. We should try to combine these messages. As long as the message doesn't say Do you really mean you really want to do what you just said you really wanted to do I can live with them. Info is good, however where you can the little don't ask me again box is good practice IMHO. James ___ maemo-users mailing list maemo-users@maemo.org https://lists.maemo.org/mailman/listinfo/maemo-users
Re: Steve's Ranty Review #1: N800 ogg support
On Friday 19 October 2007 08:35:51 dave wrote: It should stay online for days, not hours. Something is wrong with your setup. I would guess that the AP is somehow broken regards to WLAN Power Save Mode. Can you try with some other AP to see if it helps? Also make sure that N800 isn't transmitting anything extra, for example transmitting a packet every second would kill the battery quite quickly. Alternatively you could use a wireless sniffer to take a dump of WLAN level traffic and send it to me. I could take a look and see if there's something strange. It's a shame that there are so many broken APs on the market. I see lots of them when dealing with bug reports :( I guess WLAN Power Save Mode was really rare earlier, but fortunately nowadays it's getting more popular and AP manufactures have noticed the problem. hmmm. My N800 recently began running the battery dry in only a half day or so; as you mention, it used to go days between charges. This began suddenly with no change in habits or new packages having been installed. Since I really only use the device at home and at work, I ruled out anything to do with the whether or not the APs support WLAN Power Save Mode. As I said, it all worked great until recently. It is frustrating. Even if I charge overnight, I'm sure to hear the N800's plaintive wail for the power adapter just after lunchtime. Could my battery simply be dying? Is there any way to check? Thinking out load here. But I wonder if a phone store that sells Nokia phones would be able to test the battery? James ___ maemo-users mailing list maemo-users@maemo.org https://lists.maemo.org/mailman/listinfo/maemo-users
Re: Steve's Ranty Review #1: N800 ogg support
On Friday 19 October 2007 09:26:07 Steve Greenland wrote: According to James Sparenberg [EMAIL PROTECTED]: On Thursday 18 October 2007 11:30:34 Marius Gedminas wrote: I sincerely hope Maemo Extras rejects sourceless packages. Marius Gedminas Marius, I would hope that they reject binary packages period, in that like every distro I've worked with you submit a src (rpm deb tgz etc) and the distro builds from that file so that at least some assurance can be made that it's build from the correct environment. Actually, Debian requires a binary upload of at least one architecture. Then the autobuilders build for all the other architectures. About once a year someone proposes source-only uploads. The argument against is that with a binary upload, you have at least some hope that the developer has installed and tested the package. With source-only uploads, there the temptation to make just one little change and upload without building and testing. Maintaining an auto-build system is non-trivial. Regards, Steve Steve, I can agree that maintaining an auto-build will drive you nuts. I maintain part of the one we have at our company. (what do you mean it lost a file?) I know what had to be done at Mandrake both for new releases and for back ports. Here though there is the Apple Advantage in that the environments are tightly controlled by Nokia. All 770's match hardware. No two x86 systems are alike. On the binary vs source uploads I guess it's obvious where I stand. I'm a lot more paranoid than I should be most likely. James ___ maemo-users mailing list maemo-users@maemo.org https://lists.maemo.org/mailman/listinfo/maemo-users
Re: Steve's Ranty Review #1: N800 ogg support and the repository question
On Friday 19 October 2007 09:30:50 Steve Greenland wrote: According to Krischan Keitsch [EMAIL PROTECTED]: The optimum may be between the two - meaning we need some kind of a quality management for the community efforts. To approve that just verified and checked apps are in the official and universe repositories. So that Jill Random and ourselves can benefit from rock solid high quality apps. What do you think? Who is going to do the testing and certification? It's a lot of work, and not particularly rewarding. And I can guarantee that sooner or later some developers will feel personally maltreated by any such group. Probably the easiest workable solution is something like the Debian unstable/testing process, whereby packages are uploaded to unstable, and migrate to testing after meeting certain criteria (no new serious bugs, installs with only other testing packages, etc.) But I'd settle for just getting people to use one repo, rather than setting up there own. Regards, Steve Heck I'm hoping for an agreement on how to spell Utilities (Ok cheap shot meant to be humorous not mean.) But case sensitive does yield fun in this area. James ___ maemo-users mailing list maemo-users@maemo.org https://lists.maemo.org/mailman/listinfo/maemo-users
Re: Steve's Ranty Review #1: N800 ogg support
On Friday 19 October 2007 09:44:53 Steve Greenland wrote: According to James Sparenberg [EMAIL PROTECTED]: I fully understand what it's doing but not why it's doing it. Since the act of doing the first update is the equivalent of apt-get update However if you use Adept/Synaptic/dpkg etc the act of the update accumulates all of this information in one act. No, they don't. Every time you start aptitude, it has to read the dpkg and apt database files and load its internal data structures, even if you haven't done an update. Every time you run an install, after it completes, aptitude has to re-read the files/caches and reload its internal data structures. The AM is doing the same, reading the dpkg database and loading its GUI list structures. What makes it painful is that you can only act on one package at time. Regards, Steve I'll concede that it could be a perceptual point more than anything. But some aspects are in one act. When I do an apt-get update not only does it check for changes to the DB but it also adjust them IAW my existing DB. Or am I making myself as clear as mud. ( I know what I want to say and most likely I'm to tired to say it. Creating a new installer for my companies production environments.) And yes the one at a time is painful and IMHO leads to frustration and me using apt. James ___ maemo-users mailing list maemo-users@maemo.org https://lists.maemo.org/mailman/listinfo/maemo-users
Re: Steve's Ranty Review #1: N800 ogg support
Am Samstag, 20. Oktober 2007 schrieben Sie: ext Krischan Keitsch [EMAIL PROTECTED] writes: It's a shame that there are so many broken APs on the market. I see lots of them when dealing with bug reports :( I guess WLAN Power Save Mode was really rare earlier, but fortunately nowadays it's getting more popular and AP manufactures have noticed the problem. Hi Kalle, I had a similar problem with my Siemens sx541 wlan dsl router using dhcp. The n800 keeps sending dhcp requests. That caused up to 20 - 30% cpu usage and drains the battery really fast. (See Bug 1627 Bug 1646) Switching to a fixed ip solved that problem for me. Yeah, if applications send lots of data, naturally that will increase power consumption dramatically. For these cases it would helpful if you could install tcpdump to the device and take a dump of traffic. You could do it like this: tcpdump -i wlan -w dhcp-1.cap And then attach dhcp-1.cap to the bug report. That would help a lot. Hi Kalle, I tried to add a comment to Bug 1627 [1] but maemozilla wouldn't let me login and refuses to send me a password. Hmm. I also have the tcpdump and will try later to attach that to the bug report. Regards Krischan [1] https://bugs.maemo.org/show_bug.cgi?id=1627 ___ maemo-users mailing list maemo-users@maemo.org https://lists.maemo.org/mailman/listinfo/maemo-users
Re: N810 is here -- whitout ogg support
Am Donnerstag, 18. Oktober 2007 schrieb Steve Greenland: According to John Rudd [EMAIL PROTECTED]: And, no, it's not about open and free. Since the developers in question are Nokia (since the comment was directed at the release of the N810 itself, and not a request for more 3rd party development), it's about how much effort the developers need to put into supporting something vs. the amount of return they get from supporting it. Actually, it is about being open and free. Nokia promotes the tablet as an open platform, and is using huge amounts of free software as the basis for its product. To ignore ogg-vorbis support, which *is* an important feature for many of us (and far more valuable, to *me*, than WMA and AAC support), and is pretty much the only free-as-in-freedom codec, is a bit of a slap in the face. Some of us do have political agendas, such as promoting the use of free software. That Nokia uses our software (as is their right, according to our licenses), but then promotes non-free codecs/software, is a bit sad. Regards, Steve A product such as internet tablets needs users (many users, not just oss enthusiasts) in order to get some traction on the market and to evolve. Therefore it makes sense to include mainstream media codex for non-developer costumers. On the other hand the internet tablets are not just commercial products but also a commitment by Nokia to support open source development ( see upstream projects such as hildon etc.). The business unit at Nokia taking care of the internet tablets have realiced that it reduces costs on the long run to participate on the open source development - taking and giving. So, we have a strong commitment from Nokia towards open source and nice internet tablets aiming at average users as well as linux power users and developers. The average user might not care as much about ogg support or not (keeping in mind that the number of ogg content on the web increases) but we linux power users do. And we have been asking for ogg (dsp based) support since the early 770 OS2005 days! I think the comunity would accept a clear no, we will not support ogg because ... by Nokia when they would release desperately needed information about the dsp and the source of the proprietary media player. Then the comunity could put the peaces together. It is always refreshing to take a look at the openmoko project, their mailing lists and wiki. So far there is 'just' a developer version of that open phone available, but the community is extremely creative and enthusiastic. They know where they are at - maybe it is because it is all about openness? Regards Krischan ___ maemo-users mailing list maemo-users@maemo.org https://lists.maemo.org/mailman/listinfo/maemo-users
Re: Steve's Ranty Review #1: N800 ogg support
According to Marius Vollmer [EMAIL PROTECTED]: How important is it to fix this? I'm working on the assumption that you would only activate Show all packages in an emergency, but would usually leave it off (precisely because it decreases the useability so much). The problem is that while in theory, I could just display all the packages in a particular cagetory, or even only the users/* categories, in practice the category stuff is so screwed up that the only way to find anything is browsing the all lists. This screwup isn't your fault, of course; it's the lack of having a standard policy document to guide developers. Even what there is isn't consistent. Consider the 3-.x Making a package for the Application Manager in maemo 3.x document. It says: The AI only shows packages in the user section. Thus, your Section: field in the control file should be of the form user/SUBSECTION, where SUBSECTION is arbitrary. SUBSECTION should be a nice capitalised, English word like Ringtones Then it shows examples like: # user/accessories Accessories # user/communication Communication So, what goes in the control file? user/accessories or user/Accessories or user/accessories Accessories? Two of the three violate the previous definition, and the examples don't even follow the form. Writing policy (standards, basically) is hard, of course. (I was involved in a lot of the early Debian policy documentation.) But to have a working thirdparty developer community, it's necessary. A complete anarchy does not lead to good results. At lot people miss the fact that the reason Debian packages have such a good reputation (compared to RPMs, particulary RPMs from the Redhat 5-8 era), has very little to do with the technology of .deb and a huge amount to do with the Debian policy effort. Steve -- Steve Greenland The irony is that Bill Gates claims to be making a stable operating system and Linus Torvalds claims to be trying to take over the world. -- seen on the net ___ maemo-users mailing list maemo-users@maemo.org https://lists.maemo.org/mailman/listinfo/maemo-users
Re: Steve's Ranty Review #1: N800 ogg support
According to James Sparenberg [EMAIL PROTECTED]: I fully understand what it's doing but not why it's doing it. Since the act of doing the first update is the equivalent of apt-get update However if you use Adept/Synaptic/dpkg etc the act of the update accumulates all of this information in one act. No, they don't. Every time you start aptitude, it has to read the dpkg and apt database files and load its internal data structures, even if you haven't done an update. Every time you run an install, after it completes, aptitude has to re-read the files/caches and reload its internal data structures. The AM is doing the same, reading the dpkg database and loading its GUI list structures. What makes it painful is that you can only act on one package at time. Regards, Steve -- Steve Greenland The irony is that Bill Gates claims to be making a stable operating system and Linus Torvalds claims to be trying to take over the world. -- seen on the net ___ maemo-users mailing list maemo-users@maemo.org https://lists.maemo.org/mailman/listinfo/maemo-users
Re: Steve's Ranty Review #1: N800 ogg support and the repository question
According to Krischan Keitsch [EMAIL PROTECTED]: The optimum may be between the two - meaning we need some kind of a quality management for the community efforts. To approve that just verified and checked apps are in the official and universe repositories. So that Jill Random and ourselves can benefit from rock solid high quality apps. What do you think? Who is going to do the testing and certification? It's a lot of work, and not particularly rewarding. And I can guarantee that sooner or later some developers will feel personally maltreated by any such group. Probably the easiest workable solution is something like the Debian unstable/testing process, whereby packages are uploaded to unstable, and migrate to testing after meeting certain criteria (no new serious bugs, installs with only other testing packages, etc.) But I'd settle for just getting people to use one repo, rather than setting up there own. Regards, Steve -- Steve Greenland The irony is that Bill Gates claims to be making a stable operating system and Linus Torvalds claims to be trying to take over the world. -- seen on the net ___ maemo-users mailing list maemo-users@maemo.org https://lists.maemo.org/mailman/listinfo/maemo-users
Re: Steve's Ranty Review #1: N800 ogg support
According to James Sparenberg [EMAIL PROTECTED]: On Thursday 18 October 2007 11:30:34 Marius Gedminas wrote: I sincerely hope Maemo Extras rejects sourceless packages. Marius Gedminas Marius, I would hope that they reject binary packages period, in that like every distro I've worked with you submit a src (rpm deb tgz etc) and the distro builds from that file so that at least some assurance can be made that it's build from the correct environment. Actually, Debian requires a binary upload of at least one architecture. Then the autobuilders build for all the other architectures. About once a year someone proposes source-only uploads. The argument against is that with a binary upload, you have at least some hope that the developer has installed and tested the package. With source-only uploads, there the temptation to make just one little change and upload without building and testing. Maintaining an auto-build system is non-trivial. Regards, Steve -- Steve Greenland The irony is that Bill Gates claims to be making a stable operating system and Linus Torvalds claims to be trying to take over the world. -- seen on the net ___ maemo-users mailing list maemo-users@maemo.org https://lists.maemo.org/mailman/listinfo/maemo-users
Re: N810 is here (ogg support)
Le vendredi 19 octobre 2007 à 15:14 +0300, Eero Tamminen a écrit : Hi, ext Krischan Keitsch wrote: - mediaplayer not playing the file I think the problem is here, unfortunately :( Developper documentation is a little too scarce about media player, unfortunately. . Unfortunately. Am I wrong when I identify the missing source of the media player as part of the problem? Or has it been released yet? - file manager or browser not launching the media player properly This part works fine, mediaplayer is launched properly Please file bugs. sarcasm Like Bug 176, opened 2005-10-30? https://bugs.maemo.org/show_bug.cgi?id=176 /sarcasm This is clearly a different issue. That bug is about ogg/theora support for N770 Mediaplayer, not about Mediaplayer in newer releases supporting user installed codecs. Bug about this should be something like this: STEPS TO REPRODUCE: 1. Install code package codec-foo from repository bar 2. Browse to URL foo.bar.org/songs.html and tap to the song.foo file EXPECTED RESULT: - Mediaplayer starts to play nice-song.foo And to do that, we need expected to work but doesn't work ogg support package. And unfortunately, neither mogg or ogg-support packages are in this state for n800 (one lack schema and the other is not registering the correct mimetype) :( -- Frederic Crozat [EMAIL PROTECTED] ___ maemo-users mailing list maemo-users@maemo.org https://lists.maemo.org/mailman/listinfo/maemo-users
Re: Steve's Ranty Review #1: N800 ogg support
Le vendredi 19 octobre 2007 à 11:32 +0300, Kalle Valo a écrit : ext Marius Gedminas [EMAIL PROTECTED] writes: You know what the killer feature is? Automatic wifi connection. I absolutely hate it when I have to tap the silly little globe, then tap the connect menu item, then wait a few boring seconds for my wifi network to appear, then press ok. Only then I can ssh into my n800 and use apt-get. I could keep my tablet online all the time, of course, but then the battery wouldn't last till the end of the day. It should stay online for days, not hours. Something is wrong with your setup. I would guess that the AP is somehow broken regards to WLAN Power Save Mode. Can you try with some other AP to see if it helps? Also make sure that N800 isn't transmitting anything extra, for example transmitting a packet every second would kill the battery quite quickly. Just curious : is the n800 really supposed to last days when connected via Wifi (with full WLAN Power Save mode enabled), without any disconnect timeout and anything doing network access on the wifi link ? When I check battery applet (which is really great btw), I'm never sure if the in use time is applicable when being idle AND wifi connected. I know I disable network auto-connect and set disconnect timeout to 5min because I had bad experience with first IT2007 version (before full WLAN Power Save mode gconf key were given here). Maybe I should try it again.. -- Frederic Crozat [EMAIL PROTECTED] ___ maemo-users mailing list maemo-users@maemo.org https://lists.maemo.org/mailman/listinfo/maemo-users
Re: N810 is here (ogg support)
Le vendredi 19 octobre 2007 à 12:11 +0200, Krischan Keitsch a écrit : Am Freitag, 19. Oktober 2007 schrieb Frederic Crozat: Le vendredi 19 octobre 2007 à 11:59 +0300, Eero Tamminen a écrit : So, there shouldn't be any need for any Maemo specific specs, these things are documented in upstream projects. There should still be a tutorial how to do these things though. Tutorial is already available in Maemo 3.x SDK documentation, but we aren't sure it is working as expected, because of mediaplayer blackbox. If there are still some problems after codec has been correctly registered to gstreamer and mime-type database: - gstreamer not recognizing the file type correctly I don't think it is the case, using : gst-launcher filesrc location=test.ogg ! decodebin ! audioconvert ! dsppcmsink does work, so gstreamer is handling the file correctly. We are spinning in circles. We have been there too many times already! So, let's break the circle. Using incantation won't change things. I prefer action. - mediaplayer not playing the file I think the problem is here, unfortunately :( Developper documentation is a little too scarce about media player, unfortunately. . Unfortunately. Am I wrong when I identify the missing source of the media player as part of the problem? Or has it been released yet? It is one part of the problem but even if we had the source, it wouldn't ensure the problem is fixed. And I'm not in a mood to blame Nokia for not releasing Media Player source code. It is part of their policy to not release code from UI based application, I respect that, even if I regret it. So, now, the important thing is either to find if the gconf configuration for Media Player is wrong and can be fixed or if the problem is in Media Player itself (help from some Nokia dudes welcome here, hint hint :) - file manager or browser not launching the media player properly This part works fine, mediaplayer is launched properly Please file bugs. sarcasm Like Bug 176, opened 2005-10-30? https://bugs.maemo.org/show_bug.cgi?id=176 /sarcasm I think you can drop this kind of reply. And I'm serious. This bring nowhere. As a sidenote, from my distribution persective (I'm GNOME maintainer at Mandriva), Maemo community fragmentation about packages and duplicated work is killing me :( There seems to be a lot of energy around there but often doing the thing or not using infrastructure available thanks to Garage (for instance, some people are only using garage as a way to ship files and don't store their source code in SVN). I have been wondering that as well many times. How come that this community is 'fragmented'? What is causing it? I don't think it is a problem of the community or infrastructure but more of a lack of common practices, which are already in place in various other distributions or project, from new people trying to work on Maemo-based software. -- Frederic Crozat [EMAIL PROTECTED] ___ maemo-users mailing list maemo-users@maemo.org https://lists.maemo.org/mailman/listinfo/maemo-users
Re: N810 is here (ogg support)
Le vendredi 19 octobre 2007 à 11:59 +0300, Eero Tamminen a écrit : So, there shouldn't be any need for any Maemo specific specs, these things are documented in upstream projects. There should still be a tutorial how to do these things though. Tutorial is already available in Maemo 3.x SDK documentation, but we aren't sure it is working as expected, because of mediaplayer blackbox. If there are still some problems after codec has been correctly registered to gstreamer and mime-type database: - gstreamer not recognizing the file type correctly I don't think it is the case, using : gst-launcher filesrc location=test.ogg ! decodebin ! audioconvert ! dsppcmsink does work, so gstreamer is handling the file correctly. - mediaplayer not playing the file I think the problem is here, unfortunately :( Developper documentation is a little too scarce about media player, unfortunately.. - file manager or browser not launching the media player properly This part works fine, mediaplayer is launched properly Please file bugs. Before filling bugs against maemo, I think it would be better to only have one ogg support package available for 770 / n800 (and soon n810) to make sure efforts are not duplicated. As a sidenote, from my distribution persective (I'm GNOME maintainer at Mandriva), Maemo community fragmentation about packages and duplicated work is killing me :( There seems to be a lot of energy around there but often doing the thing or not using infrastructure available thanks to Garage (for instance, some people are only using garage as a way to ship files and don't store their source code in SVN). -- Frederic Crozat [EMAIL PROTECTED] ___ maemo-users mailing list maemo-users@maemo.org https://lists.maemo.org/mailman/listinfo/maemo-users
Re: N810 is here (ogg support)
Hi, ext Krischan Keitsch wrote: Am Mittwoch, 17. Oktober 2007 schrieb Collin R. Mulliner: OGG is only a nerd feature and also has other problems, so Nokia (and other companies) just don't care. Maybe somebody can make a plugin (also this won't utilize the DSP). I don't agree with ogg = nerd feature. Linux as an open and free platform is way beyond nerd-state. Ogg is also about openness and freedom. They share the same philosophy. The OS of our internet tablets is based upon Linux, isn't it? So why is there no support for ogg? By the way: every time a new stylish personal media player from china is shown on engadget you will find more and more players with support for flac and ogg vorbis. Hmm, something is changing? I think whether Nokia is going to support ogg or not is somewhat besides the point. What should be supported is: - Addition of support for new codecs to the system (works, but the repository situation could be better) - All applications immediately able to use the new codecs - User opening a file (in browser or filemanager) encoded with the new codec should automatically open it in the correct player - Documenting how to achieve this This way Nokia doesn't need to be a bottleneck in getting new codecs for the users; community, commercial companies etc could then do it. - Eero ___ maemo-users mailing list maemo-users@maemo.org https://lists.maemo.org/mailman/listinfo/maemo-users
Re: Steve's Ranty Review #1: N800 ogg support
On Fri, Oct 19, 2007 at 11:32:12AM +0300, Kalle Valo wrote: ext Marius Gedminas [EMAIL PROTECTED] writes: I could keep my tablet online all the time, of course, but then the battery wouldn't last till the end of the day. It should stay online for days, not hours. I didn't mean to imply that it drains the battery in a few hours while idle. It drains the battery in a few hours of e-book reading, with the screen on. Keeping the tablet offline increases my e-book reading time a bit. Also, I have load-applet and statusbarclock installed, and these probably don't help with power savings. Marius Gedminas -- If it wasn't for C, we'd be using BASI, PASAL and OBOL signature.asc Description: Digital signature ___ maemo-users mailing list maemo-users@maemo.org https://lists.maemo.org/mailman/listinfo/maemo-users
Re: N810 is here (ogg support)
-BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE- Hash: SHA1 Frederic Crozat schrieb: And to do that, we need expected to work but doesn't work ogg support package. And unfortunately, neither mogg or ogg-support packages are in this state for n800 (one lack schema and the other is not registering the correct mimetype) :( The mogg source is up in the download section and in svn and it's easy to repackage! I am more than happy about solutions/patches! I don't have an N800 to try it out! Tilman PS. Rant is a good start, but action and contributions cannot be substituted. -BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE- Version: GnuPG v1.4.2 (GNU/Linux) Comment: Using GnuPG with SUSE - http://enigmail.mozdev.org iD8DBQFHGKwg9ZPu6Yae8lkRAlJlAJ4jK/AEZ3xSTg2UjS6ZR65E1MOYRQCggdse g2MUU5SbAfQdZuPsPgg72uw= =3uUJ -END PGP SIGNATURE- ___ maemo-users mailing list maemo-users@maemo.org https://lists.maemo.org/mailman/listinfo/maemo-users
Re: N810 is here (ogg support)
Hi, ext Krischan Keitsch wrote: - mediaplayer not playing the file I think the problem is here, unfortunately :( Developper documentation is a little too scarce about media player, unfortunately. . Unfortunately. Am I wrong when I identify the missing source of the media player as part of the problem? Or has it been released yet? - file manager or browser not launching the media player properly This part works fine, mediaplayer is launched properly Please file bugs. sarcasm Like Bug 176, opened 2005-10-30? https://bugs.maemo.org/show_bug.cgi?id=176 /sarcasm This is clearly a different issue. That bug is about ogg/theora support for N770 Mediaplayer, not about Mediaplayer in newer releases supporting user installed codecs. Bug about this should be something like this: STEPS TO REPRODUCE: 1. Install code package codec-foo from repository bar 2. Browse to URL foo.bar.org/songs.html and tap to the song.foo file EXPECTED RESULT: - Mediaplayer starts to play nice-song.foo - Eero ___ maemo-users mailing list maemo-users@maemo.org https://lists.maemo.org/mailman/listinfo/maemo-users
Re: Steve's Ranty Review #1: N800 ogg support
ext Steve Greenland [EMAIL PROTECTED] writes: (In other words, it is conservative when removing things. Not like aptitude that goes and deletes half your OS if you are not careful.. :) Aww, cmon, this is mostly fixed in aptitude these days. Besides, it made life exciting! Yep, I should try aptitude again, but first impressions are hard to overcome... (I also don't the prolog impersonation that aptitude puts on sometimes: accept this solution or look at another equally obscure one?) ___ maemo-users mailing list maemo-users@maemo.org https://lists.maemo.org/mailman/listinfo/maemo-users
Re: N810 is here (ogg support)
Am Freitag, 19. Oktober 2007 schrieb Frederic Crozat: Le vendredi 19 octobre 2007 à 11:59 +0300, Eero Tamminen a écrit : So, there shouldn't be any need for any Maemo specific specs, these things are documented in upstream projects. There should still be a tutorial how to do these things though. Tutorial is already available in Maemo 3.x SDK documentation, but we aren't sure it is working as expected, because of mediaplayer blackbox. If there are still some problems after codec has been correctly registered to gstreamer and mime-type database: - gstreamer not recognizing the file type correctly I don't think it is the case, using : gst-launcher filesrc location=test.ogg ! decodebin ! audioconvert ! dsppcmsink does work, so gstreamer is handling the file correctly. We are spinning in circles. We have been there too many times already! - mediaplayer not playing the file I think the problem is here, unfortunately :( Developper documentation is a little too scarce about media player, unfortunately. . Unfortunately. Am I wrong when I identify the missing source of the media player as part of the problem? Or has it been released yet? - file manager or browser not launching the media player properly This part works fine, mediaplayer is launched properly Please file bugs. sarcasm Like Bug 176, opened 2005-10-30? https://bugs.maemo.org/show_bug.cgi?id=176 /sarcasm Before filling bugs against maemo, I think it would be better to only have one ogg support package available for 770 / n800 (and soon n810) to make sure efforts are not duplicated. Yepp! Convergence instead of parallel efforts! Time to puzzle should be over in order to mature this platform. As a sidenote, from my distribution persective (I'm GNOME maintainer at Mandriva), Maemo community fragmentation about packages and duplicated work is killing me :( There seems to be a lot of energy around there but often doing the thing or not using infrastructure available thanks to Garage (for instance, some people are only using garage as a way to ship files and don't store their source code in SVN). I have been wondering that as well many times. How come that this community is 'fragmented'? What is causing it? Regards Krischan ___ maemo-users mailing list maemo-users@maemo.org https://lists.maemo.org/mailman/listinfo/maemo-users
Re: Steve's Ranty Review #1: N800 ogg support
On Thursday 18 October 2007 20:01:36 Steve Greenland wrote: According to James Sparenberg [EMAIL PROTECTED]: a. open AM b. get asked if I want to update package lists. c. click to browse installable packages. d. wait for update packages (why it just did an update.) Actually, the update here is updating the soon-to-be-displayed list of uninstalled packages; it's not re-doing the download of the Packages files. Steve I fully understand what it's doing but not why it's doing it. Since the act of doing the first update is the equivalent of apt-get update However if you use Adept/Synaptic/dpkg etc the act of the update accumulates all of this information in one act. James ___ maemo-users mailing list maemo-users@maemo.org https://lists.maemo.org/mailman/listinfo/maemo-users
Re: Steve's Ranty Review #1: N800 ogg support
According to Marius Vollmer [EMAIL PROTECTED]: ext Marius Gedminas [EMAIL PROTECTED] writes: My personal pet peeve with the app manager is all those confirmation dialogs. Yeah, and there will be more in the future... There should be at least one before starting the operation, Please Ghod no. I confirmed the operation when I selected install or remove. In the rare occasion when I didn't mean to, the worst consequence is that I have to remove or re-install some app. The obvious exception, of course, is attempting to remove some required package, or removing something that's going to break dependencies. and we can't get rid of the legal Notice dialog for non-certified software. How about letting me mark repos as okay by meor is this just a case where I need to be a poweruser and use apt-get? When using the AM to install system software updates, there will be lots more: please take a backup, all applications will be closed, continue?, device will reboot, continue?, don't touch me while I do scary things to the kernel, maybe even more. We should try to combine these messages. This needs some thought -- in particular, what defines a system software update? Upgrading the whole system to ITS2008, sure. A kernel upgrade, probably. But what if the upgrade is just one required package? Remember, by doing per-package upgrades, you can get this kind of choice. Steve -- Steve Greenland The irony is that Bill Gates claims to be making a stable operating system and Linus Torvalds claims to be trying to take over the world. -- seen on the net ___ maemo-users mailing list maemo-users@maemo.org https://lists.maemo.org/mailman/listinfo/maemo-users
Re: Steve's Ranty Review #1: N800 ogg support
ext Marius Gedminas [EMAIL PROTECTED] writes: My personal pet peeve with the app manager is all those confirmation dialogs. Yeah, and there will be more in the future... There should be at least one before starting the operation, and we can't get rid of the legal Notice dialog for non-certified software. When using the AM to install system software updates, there will be lots more: please take a backup, all applications will be closed, continue?, device will reboot, continue?, don't touch me while I do scary things to the kernel, maybe even more. We should try to combine these messages. ___ maemo-users mailing list maemo-users@maemo.org https://lists.maemo.org/mailman/listinfo/maemo-users
Re: Steve's Ranty Review #1: N800 ogg support
Am Donnerstag, 18. Oktober 2007 schrieb Steve Greenland: Background: I'm a long-time Debian user and developer, and have grown used to 'apt-get install somepackage' *working*. That's one of the reasons I purchased the n800; I naively expected that having adopted the best packaging *tools* available, the maemo community might also adopt the Debian packaging *practices*. You need *both* to get the Debian experience. Others have ranted about the general problems, and it appears that Nokia and the maemo devels have plans to try to fix the problems, so I won't repeat the rant here. Except as it applies to the specific packages, of course. Current state of ogg support, 17-October-2007. Summary: the good news is that you can play oggs with N800. The bad news? Read on...but let me first throw out a big thank you to all the people who have worked on this. I rant because it's more fun to write rants, and because if you don't write about the problems there's not much to say, but I *can* play oggs on my N800, and I appreciate that. ... Ah, now I feel better. Hey, don't complain. I told you it was a rant in the subject line. Regards, Steve Hi Steve, your review pointed out how redundant and chaotic development for the n800 is at the moment. I would like to pick up two points from your review: a) the repository situation - Were are all the apps? b) ogg support - Time to join forces! to a) Were are all the apps? One thing that we are missing is a 'distribution' (the debian or ubuntu way) with primary repositories and additional repos. etc. At the moment there are many different sources for apps: different repositories, personal web pages from developers, maemo garage ... You name it. It is already difficult for me (as an experienced linux user) - so how does someone with less experience, time and motivation get along? Why is ubuntu so successfull? One reason might be the ease of installing apps and adding repositories offering thoughtands of apps. Don't you agree? My hope is, that we will see some kind of consolidation with chinook and the ubuntu mobil edition. The time is ready to get serious. Especially with the n810 and the expected mid's waiting! to b) Don't get me wrong: I believe that redundancy and creative chaos will automatically lead to innovations. Therefore I appreciate the efforts taken to bring ogg support to the maemo platform. I experimented a little myself early this year with tremor, vorbis and theora. Til then we did not get much further - still no dsp assisted tremor support for the maemo platform. Many attempts are out there I just wish they would join forces now (after individual experimentation) so that the n8x0 users have a sustainable solution to listen to their ogg files. Hmm, I hope I got my thoughts across. I just want to encourage everyone to help this platform to mature. I believe that we are close to a turning point where internet tablets and mobile internet device's as well as smarter phones (openmoko) with there open source software will reach a critical mass! Regards Krischan PS: Did I mention yet that I love my 770 with the latest hacker edition and the plankton theme? ___ maemo-users mailing list maemo-users@maemo.org https://lists.maemo.org/mailman/listinfo/maemo-users
Re: Steve's Ranty Review #1: N800 ogg support
-BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE- Hash: SHA1 Hi! First of all: Thanks for your review! You wouldn't believe how few feedback you get these days: The mogg d/l counters show that quite some people try it, but we get no feedback. So you're tempted to believe everybody is happy. So thanks again! Steve Greenland schrieb: Current state of ogg support, 17-October-2007. Firstly, for some unknown reason there are *two* different ogg support packages. One, from Tuomas Kulve, I'll call 'ogg-support'. The second, by Marko Nykanen and Tilman Vogel (according to the garage page,but see below), is 'mogg'. Yes, this is unfortunate. I think mogg existed first and I was surprised about the second attempt, but on the other hand at that time none of the mogg people had an IT OS 2007 scratchbox set up, so nobody can be blamed. I (silently - my fault) had hoped somebody (maybe Tuomas Kulve) would contact us to join on mogg some day and support it on the N800. Anyway, I did some clean-up work on the gstreamer tremor plugin. Some of these changes make it work with the maemo audio player and kagu. The changes are documented and can easily be diffed between the upstream tremor plugin and the mogg version. I mentioned this to Tuomas Kulve and he offered me to join his project. I have not responded yet and the reason is that he tries to maintain the whole gstreamer-plugins-bad package. I didn't want to do this as I was just interested in the tremor codec and because the package is quite edgy, I decided to separate the tremor plugin into its own package. I am really not keen on going back to the bad package. Actually, as soon as tremor get's kind of maintained again, it should leave the bad package anyway. Plus, I don't have an N800, so, blame me, I am a bit egoistic about investing more work in this, but vice versa, I'd be happy to have N800 developers (Tuomas?) on the mogg project! Mogg is available from r.m.o extras. Yea. The packages file shows the maintainer for 'mogg' to be Jussi Kukkonen. Libraries are pulled from r.m.o when available, no obvious dupes. Ok, I'll update that soon. Jussi Kukkonen recently left the project out of time constraints. Onto the players. Built in media player: doesn't work. Mogg claims that it should (and maybe it does in the IT2006 version), but it doesn't even find the files on the card. (It does find MP3s.) Ok, I am interested in this because it works on IT OS 2006. Do you have any hints, which files might be missing/wrong? /usr/share/mime/packages/ogg-vorbis.xml should register *.ogg as audio/x-vorbis and it seems on IT OS 2006, the audio player shows all files of type audio/*. So, long story short (too late!) I'm using kagu with the mogg libraries. Yes, me too. Thanks again! Tilman -BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE- Version: GnuPG v1.4.2 (GNU/Linux) Comment: Using GnuPG with SUSE - http://enigmail.mozdev.org iD8DBQFHFytW9ZPu6Yae8lkRApq8AJ41qi9+CXQSVhDJ84sRy97XJiQPqgCaAovK BdlD5vpSP+nLyxBmG6EmJw8= =tsJF -END PGP SIGNATURE- ___ maemo-users mailing list maemo-users@maemo.org https://lists.maemo.org/mailman/listinfo/maemo-users
Re: Steve's Ranty Review #1: N800 ogg support
On 10/18/07, Steve Greenland [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: debug1: confirm x11 X11 connection rejected because of wrong authentication. Interesting, it works here with openssh, and DISPLAY is :0.0 during that. My guess is dropbear does things differently. Unsetting DISPLAY, I get this: NameError: global name '_gtk' is not defined So what it looks like is that the import of pygtk (or gtk) is trying to initialize the X11 system, and failing. Maybe modifying the scanner so it doesn't do the import on the --install codepath? Pygame needs to read the screen depth (we're saving cache image according to the screen format, otherwise Kagu startup gets slower) so it won't work. I tried, though. If I was installing via the AM, and it hung for 150 seconds with no visible output, I'd be worried. There's a going back-and-forth progressbar in AM during installation. Some big packages or big dependencies also take long, so I think the userbase is used to this. -- Kemal ___ maemo-users mailing list maemo-users@maemo.org https://lists.maemo.org/mailman/listinfo/maemo-users
Re: Steve's Ranty Review #1: N800 ogg support
-BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE- Hash: SHA1 BTW, if you feel like it, you could put your review into http://maemo.org/community/wiki/playingoggfiles/ Regards, Tilman -BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE- Version: GnuPG v1.4.2 (GNU/Linux) Comment: Using GnuPG with SUSE - http://enigmail.mozdev.org iD8DBQFHF0JA9ZPu6Yae8lkRAsLKAKCB4NllU1puyGWYHJpfnozWDh0pdQCeOhS9 8KFdujLn3wpZ+JkILGEy0Tg= =Ai8X -END PGP SIGNATURE- ___ maemo-users mailing list maemo-users@maemo.org https://lists.maemo.org/mailman/listinfo/maemo-users
Re: Steve's Ranty Review #1: N800 ogg support
ext Steve Greenland [EMAIL PROTECTED] writes: (Digression: why am I not using the Application Manager? Well, besides the fact that apt-get is the One True Way, the AM is *slow*. And unreliable (upgrades and updates often fail, but work with apt-get). And there's no obvious way to upgrade packages except one at a time, which is both slow and tedious. End digression). I'm interested in this digression, sorry to distract from your main point. Can you give more information about how the AM is slower than apt-get? Do you need to perform too many clicks in the UI to get your task done, or do you have to wait longer until it has downloaded and installed the packages? Also, when you say that operations often fail, do you mean that the AM crashes or leaves your system in a inconsistent state, or do you mean that the AM doesn't find solutions to satisfy all dependencies whereas apt-get is able to find a solution and proceed? We will finally get a Update All button in Diablo. (In all likelihood it will just run all the updates one after the other instead of all at once as apt-get upgrade would do.) ___ maemo-users mailing list maemo-users@maemo.org https://lists.maemo.org/mailman/listinfo/maemo-users
Re: Steve's Ranty Review #1: N800 ogg support
According to Marius Vollmer [EMAIL PROTECTED]: Can you give more information about how the AM is slower than apt-get? Do you need to perform too many clicks in the UI to get your task done, or do you have to wait longer until it has downloaded and installed the packages? Mostly it's the clicking/browsing issue. Also, the waiting for the lists to update in the UI. Part of the problem is that completely random sectioning, which makes it pretty much infeasible to browse except in the all section (yes, I've got red-pill enabled). With that list, scrolling is awkward. Just being able to filter out packages beginning with lib would be useful. The sectioning problem goes back to not have standard repos, real project policy, etc. I doubt the actual *actions* are slower (modulo UI list updates), but it's a heck of a lot faster for me to type apt-get install foo than browse in the AM. Also, given the many repos I've got listed, I'm a heavy user of apt-cache policy to figure out just where packages are coming from. I was going to complain that the AM didn't show what new dependencies were going to be installed by a particular package, but I just looked, and there *is* a tab with that info. Is that a new with the recent firmware upgrade, or was I just blind before? It would be nice if the AM would allow you to re-configure (in the dpkg sense) a partially installed app, without requiring an uninstall/reinstall. Probably an appropriate label would be try to fix broken packages. But mostly it's the fact that I'm extremely comfortable with the apt-get/apt-cache/dpkg command lines. I don't use synaptic, either. Oh, and while you're reading: it would be *really nice* to have dependency tracking, like aptitude. This means that when you install foo, and it requires bar and baz, and you later remove foo, the tool remembers that bar and bas were automatically installed only to support foo, and removes those as well (assuming no other package also needs bar or baz, of course). The latest apt suite has this built in, so maybe it wouldn't be too hard? Also, when you say that operations often fail, do you mean that the AM crashes or leaves your system in a inconsistent state, or do you mean that the AM doesn't find solutions to satisfy all dependencies whereas apt-get is able to find a solution and proceed? Mostly I mean that updates and installs fail, downloads hang, etc. But now that I think about it (rather than shooting my mouth off randomly), this probably isn't your problem. I only use the AM when I'm away from home, and I'm going to guess that it's an issue of the sites crappy wifi, since I also have problems browsing there. We will finally get a Update All button in Diablo. Yea! But should be Upgrade All, for consistency with apt terminology. :-) (In all likelihood it will just run all the updates one after the other instead of all at once as apt-get upgrade would do.) That's fine, and makes perfect sense for environment. thanks for reading my rant, Steve -- Steve Greenland The irony is that Bill Gates claims to be making a stable operating system and Linus Torvalds claims to be trying to take over the world. -- seen on the net ___ maemo-users mailing list maemo-users@maemo.org https://lists.maemo.org/mailman/listinfo/maemo-users
Re: Steve's Ranty Review #1: N800 ogg support
According to Krischan Keitsch [EMAIL PROTECTED]: to a) Were are all the apps? One thing that we are missing is a 'distribution' (the debian or ubuntu way) with primary repositories and additional repos. etc. Actually, I think we *have* that repo: repository.maemo.org. The problem is that there is no obvious, straightforward way for Jill Random to get her packages into the repo. Is this documented anywhere? A quick browse of maemo.org didn't find anything. But as I noted, there seems to be some plans to improve this situation. And, admittedly, it's not as easy as just letting anonymous people upload. Any package can trash the entire system, via the install hooks. Debian deals with this by making it so painful to become an official developer that the asshats won't make the effort. OTOH, the current situation encourages the addition of random repos to the source list, so basically is no different than letting random people upload. Given that the official nokia repos are still screwed up w.r.t. package signing (see https://bugs.maemo.org/show_bug.cgi?id=2067), we're training the users to ignore/avoid any security stuff anyway. Steve -- Steve Greenland The irony is that Bill Gates claims to be making a stable operating system and Linus Torvalds claims to be trying to take over the world. -- seen on the net ___ maemo-users mailing list maemo-users@maemo.org https://lists.maemo.org/mailman/listinfo/maemo-users
Re: Steve's Ranty Review #1: N800 ogg support
According to Kemal Hadimli [EMAIL PROTECTED]: On 10/18/07, Steve Greenland [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: debug1: confirm x11 X11 connection rejected because of wrong authentication. Interesting, it works here with openssh, and DISPLAY is :0.0 during that. My guess is dropbear does things differently. Hmmm. Dropbear is trying to run /usr/bin/X11/xauth, which doesn't exist. Maybe openssh has the required functionality built in? Pygame needs to read the screen depth (we're saving cache image according to the screen format, otherwise Kagu startup gets slower) so it won't work. I tried, though. Ah. Well, I'm probably the only one trying to do this. And it looks like it's more of a problem with dropbear/xauth anyway. Hmm, that might be a problem, though -- pygame is going to pick up the screen depth of my desktop, not the N800. Thanks, Steve -- Steve Greenland The irony is that Bill Gates claims to be making a stable operating system and Linus Torvalds claims to be trying to take over the world. -- seen on the net ___ maemo-users mailing list maemo-users@maemo.org https://lists.maemo.org/mailman/listinfo/maemo-users
Re: Steve's Ranty Review #1: N800 ogg support
ext Steve Greenland [EMAIL PROTECTED] writes: According to Marius Vollmer [EMAIL PROTECTED]: Can you give more information about how the AM is slower than apt-get? Do you need to perform too many clicks in the UI to get your task done, or do you have to wait longer until it has downloaded and installed the packages? Mostly it's the clicking/browsing issue. Ok, understood. This seems to be the general I am much more productive at the command line than with a WIMP interface situation. I can very much symphatize with that, but it mostly means that the Application Manager is not for you. It is perfectly fine and supported to use apt-get on the device. Having apt-get on the device is not just some artifact, it's the intended power-user interface that makes it acceptable for us to keep the Application Manager pretty basic. I am happy that the AM seems to be good enough that some hackers actually consider using it instead of apt-get or Synaptic, but UI-wise it only really is intended to manage smallish bundles of packages that make up applications. Activating the show all packages setting in red-pill mode is pretty much useless with its UI, for example. (My standard settings are: don't show all packages, don't show dependencies, but show magic:sys. That keeps the lists short and I still can update the hidden packages.) Also, the waiting for the lists to update in the UI. Yes, there is potential for optimization here. I was going to complain that the AM didn't show what new dependencies were going to be installed by a particular package, but I just looked, and there *is* a tab with that info. Is that a new with the recent firmware upgrade, or was I just blind before? That info was always there (since IT OS 2006). It would be nice if the AM would allow you to re-configure (in the dpkg sense) a partially installed app, without requiring an uninstall/reinstall. Probably an appropriate label would be try to fix broken packages. Yeah, except we don't want to have a magic Try to fix things button in the UI. We are planning to silently reconfigure packages automatically to unbreak them. This will get more important when we support updating system packages, which you obviously can't remove+install to unbreak them. Oh, and while you're reading: it would be *really nice* to have dependency tracking, like aptitude. This means that when you install foo, and it requires bar and baz, and you later remove foo, the tool remembers that bar and bas were automatically installed only to support foo, and removes those as well (assuming no other package also needs bar or baz, of course). The latest apt suite has this built in, so maybe it wouldn't be too hard? The Application Manager should actually do this (since IT OS 2006). However, it keeps its own information about packages that have been installed to satisfy dependencies (since our version of apt doesn't and I was not brave enough to fix libapt-pkg itself). Thus, it will only automatically remove a package that it has installed itself. (In other words, it is conservative when removing things. Not like aptitude that goes and deletes half your OS if you are not careful.. :) There is no explicit autoremove action. Rather, invisible packages are automatically removed together with the visible packages that depend on them. Check /var/lib/osso-application-installer/autoinst to see which packages are eligible for automatic removal. I want to let libapt-pkg do the book keeping in the next release, of course. ___ maemo-users mailing list maemo-users@maemo.org https://lists.maemo.org/mailman/listinfo/maemo-users
Re: Steve's Ranty Review #1: N800 ogg support
On Thu, Oct 18, 2007 at 08:16:51PM +0300, Marius Vollmer wrote: I am happy that the AM seems to be good enough that some hackers actually consider using it instead of apt-get You know what the killer feature is? Automatic wifi connection. I absolutely hate it when I have to tap the silly little globe, then tap the connect menu item, then wait a few boring seconds for my wifi network to appear, then press ok. Only then I can ssh into my n800 and use apt-get. I could keep my tablet online all the time, of course, but then the battery wouldn't last till the end of the day. My personal pet peeve with the app manager is all those confirmation dialogs. Marius Gedminas -- Remember the... the... uhh. signature.asc Description: Digital signature ___ maemo-users mailing list maemo-users@maemo.org https://lists.maemo.org/mailman/listinfo/maemo-users
Re: Steve's Ranty Review #1: N800 ogg support
According to Marius Vollmer [EMAIL PROTECTED]: ext Steve Greenland [EMAIL PROTECTED] writes: Mostly it's the clicking/browsing issue. Ok, understood. This seems to be the general I am much more productive at the command line than with a WIMP interface situation. I can very much symphatize with that, but it mostly means that the Application Manager is not for you. It is perfectly fine and supported to use apt-get on the device. Having apt-get on the device is not just some artifact, it's the intended power-user interface that makes it acceptable for us to keep the Application Manager pretty basic. That's a completely reasonable design decision, as is your point about the magic fix things button. [AM showing newly-installed dependencies] That info was always there (since IT OS 2006). Well, then I was blind. Not the first time... [Auto-dependency tracking] The Application Manager should actually do this (since IT OS 2006). [*snip*] (In other words, it is conservative when removing things. Not like aptitude that goes and deletes half your OS if you are not careful.. :) Aww, cmon, this is mostly fixed in aptitude these days. Besides, it made life exciting! Check /var/lib/osso-application-installer/autoinst to see which packages are eligible for automatic removal. Mine's empty, but I probably haven't installed anything to trigger it via the AM since the re-flash. I want to let libapt-pkg do the book keeping in the next release, of course. Excellent news. Thanks, steve -- Steve Greenland The irony is that Bill Gates claims to be making a stable operating system and Linus Torvalds claims to be trying to take over the world. -- seen on the net ___ maemo-users mailing list maemo-users@maemo.org https://lists.maemo.org/mailman/listinfo/maemo-users
Re: Steve's Ranty Review #1: N800 ogg support
On Thu, Oct 18, 2007 at 04:48:35PM +, Steve Greenland wrote: According to Krischan Keitsch [EMAIL PROTECTED]: to a) Were are all the apps? One thing that we are missing is a 'distribution' (the debian or ubuntu way) with primary repositories and additional repos. etc. Actually, I think we *have* that repo: repository.maemo.org. The problem is that there is no obvious, straightforward way for Jill Random to get her packages into the repo. Is this documented anywhere? A quick browse of maemo.org didn't find anything. http://maemo.org/community/application-catalog/extras_repository.html I still haven't found the time to do that and instead keep the few packages I need in my ad-hoc repository :( But as I noted, there seems to be some plans to improve this situation. And, admittedly, it's not as easy as just letting anonymous people upload. Any package can trash the entire system, via the install hooks. Debian deals with this by making it so painful to become an official developer that the asshats won't make the effort. I think Ubuntu's MOTU model is worth looking at: https://wiki.ubuntu.com/MOTU OTOH, the current situation encourages the addition of random repos to the source list, so basically is no different than letting random people upload. My other pet peeve is that this encourages binary-only debs which you can't then fix/port to a different SDK version. I sincerely hope Maemo Extras rejects sourceless packages. Marius Gedminas -- Did you know that 7/5 people don't know how to use fractions? signature.asc Description: Digital signature ___ maemo-users mailing list maemo-users@maemo.org https://lists.maemo.org/mailman/listinfo/maemo-users
Re: Steve's Ranty Review #1: N800 ogg support
On Thu, 18 Oct 2007, Marius Gedminas wrote: I could keep my tablet online all the time, of course, but then the battery wouldn't last till the end of the day. Have you tried? My N800 is always connected and the battery lasts a couple of days. Only when I start hitting the CPU it starts to drain faster. Using it 1-2 hours a day reading e-books (fbreader rocks!) it lasts well over 3 days. Best regards, Jac --- Jac KersingTechnical Consultant The-Box Development [EMAIL PROTECTED] CISSP RHCEhttp://www.the-box.com ___ maemo-users mailing list maemo-users@maemo.org https://lists.maemo.org/mailman/listinfo/maemo-users
Re: Steve's Ranty Review #1: N800 ogg support
On Thu, Oct 18, 2007 at 09:15:39PM +0200, Jac Kersing wrote: On Thu, 18 Oct 2007, Marius Gedminas wrote: I could keep my tablet online all the time, of course, but then the battery wouldn't last till the end of the day. Have you tried? Yes. My N800 is always connected and the battery lasts a couple of days. Only when I start hitting the CPU it starts to drain faster. Using it 1-2 hours a day reading e-books (fbreader rocks!) it lasts well over 3 days. I probably use it for 3-6 hours a day reading e-books. It depends on the day (weekday/weekend) and the book (sometimes I just can't... stop... reading..., which does results in things happening to my sleep schedule). Also, I have this paranoid habit of looking for a charger as soon as the battery meter drops from 4 bars to 3. At some point I decided the extra convenience of having an always-on tablet wasn't worth the occasional inconvenience of having to recharge sooner. Marius Gedminas -- Everyone has a photographic memory. Some don't have film. signature.asc Description: Digital signature ___ maemo-users mailing list maemo-users@maemo.org https://lists.maemo.org/mailman/listinfo/maemo-users
Re: Steve's Ranty Review #1: N800 ogg support
According to Steve Greenland [EMAIL PROTECTED]: Onto the players. Austin Che wrote and pointed out that I'd missed the MPD (music player daemon) port. This intrigued, because I use and quite like MPD on my home system. For those unfamiliar with it, it splits the player into the server process that actually does the playing and file management, and an independent client to send instructions. There are many clients available, from the standard command line 'mpc' to GUI and web-based clients. The client doesn't have to be on the same machine, although of course for a standalone N800 they'd need to be. So I installed mpd and a bunch of libraries from garage.mpd.org. (Insert usual rant about packages not in repo). There's also other dependencies that are in the repo, but you still have to deal with them by hand because dpkg doesn't know to call apt-get. (Installing via the AM may make this easier.) One notable dependency is adduser, which brings in perl5-base. All this so we can create an 'mpd' user on the install. While this makes sense in a standard desktop or server situation, and is normal Debian practice, on the single user N800 system this could just as easily run as 'user', avoiding a pretty big dependency. I modified /etc/mpd.conf to point to /media/mmc1/oggs, and ran /usr/bin/mpd --create-database to scan the files, and /etc/init.d/mpd restart to restart the daemon. For clients, I tried both mmpc and glurp (which is nominally ITS2006, but seems to work on ITS2007 fine.) MMPC has a simpler interface. Glurp has a more complete interface, but the tiny buttons pretty much require a stylus for fat-fingered people like me. MMPC doesn't seem to have a way to add an entire album to the playlist at once. Glurp browses the library by filesystem layout, rather than using the tags to sort by artist/album. Glurp allows you to request a library update (aka rescan); MMPC doesn't. Glurp struggled with my home servers ~4000 entry playlist; MMPC did better. Try'em both; I'll probably stay with MMPC for remote controlling my home system... ...but MPD is not a good solution for an N800 standalone player *at this time*. There are two big issues. 1. CPU usage. MPD doesn't use the tremor vorbis library, and thus playing an ogg sucks down about 75% of the CPU. In comparison, with Kagu, the osso-media-server process uses about 25% of the CPU. (Kagu sucks another 10-15% if the screen is active.) 2. As a straight port of the Debian MPD package, the mpd server restarts automatically on reboot *and resumes playing the oggs*. This is not good, because it slows down the rest of the reboot process quite a bit, and, since there isn't any free CPU, it sounds *dreadful*. Both of those are fixable. Regards, Steve -- Steve Greenland The irony is that Bill Gates claims to be making a stable operating system and Linus Torvalds claims to be trying to take over the world. -- seen on the net ___ maemo-users mailing list maemo-users@maemo.org https://lists.maemo.org/mailman/listinfo/maemo-users
Re: Steve's Ranty Review #1: N800 ogg support
On 10/18/07, Marius Gedminas [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: schedule). Also, I have this paranoid habit of looking for a charger as soon as the battery meter drops from 4 bars to 3. yep. the battery meter is not accurate/linear. it takes ages to drop from 4 bars to 3. then it takes less and less time to drop levels, until it reaches one bar. at one bar it takes relatively long go battery low too. At some point I decided the extra convenience of having an always-on tablet wasn't worth the occasional inconvenience of having to recharge sooner. i keep mine always connected, no problems. of course i don't keep it always connected via bluetooth when i'm on the street, otherwise my phone battery dies just too quickly. though finding a thick nokia charger on the go is easy, walk into almost any store and ask for permission to use their nokia charger. plug your phone in, and roam around in the shop for a few minutes. you'll get a few bars on the phone. that's not possible with the thin charger jack yet. (and it takes longer to charge the 5L battery, possibly due to high capacity compared to cellphones) -- Kemal ___ maemo-users mailing list maemo-users@maemo.org https://lists.maemo.org/mailman/listinfo/maemo-users
Re: Steve's Ranty Review #1: N800 ogg support
-BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE- Hash: SHA1 Hi again! Steve Greenland schrieb: After the re-install, I've got /usr/share/mime/audio/x-vorbis.xml, which is: ?xml version=1.0 encoding=utf-8? mime-type xmlns=http://www.freedesktop.org/standards/shared-mime-info; type=audio/x-vorbis !--Created automatically by update-mime-database. DO NOT EDIT!-- commentOGG audio/comment /mime-type The 'globs' file does have audio/x-vorbis:*.ogg. However, the categories file, in category audio, has application/ogg but NOT audio/x-vorbis. Maybe that's the problem? Maybe, but at least it's the same on IT OS 2006. Throwing caution to the wind, I recklessly and irresponsibly violated the DO NOT EDIT! instruction and added audio/x-vorbis by hand. However, the media player still doesn't find the oggs. Bugger. Did you reboot in between? Maybe the media server needs to be restarted for that to take effect. Could be that on 2007 the media server uses categories? There's also a magic file, but that's in some sort of binary format that even I don't want to mess with. Kind of. Its some magic strings to recognize file type from the content. It's also coming from /usr/share/mime/packages/ogg-vorbis.xml. Actually, I currently don't really have an idea why this is not working on the N800... Sorry, Tilman -BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE- Version: GnuPG v1.4.2 (GNU/Linux) Comment: Using GnuPG with SUSE - http://enigmail.mozdev.org iD8DBQFHF8Ga9ZPu6Yae8lkRAjpMAJwLmourdi9BnF14xTgOSwiNuWRHOgCfeF5A C2jA1kCuCkqOK3SD/8GWqnI= =Pi7p -END PGP SIGNATURE- ___ maemo-users mailing list maemo-users@maemo.org https://lists.maemo.org/mailman/listinfo/maemo-users
Re: Steve's Ranty Review #1: N800 ogg support
According to Austin Che [EMAIL PROTECTED]: [EMAIL PROTECTED] (Steve Greenland): ...but MPD is not a good solution for an N800 standalone player *at this time*. There are two big issues. I just have to say I've been using mpd exclusively as my media player for over a month and have been very happy with it (much more than my attempts with other media players). I mainly like it because it's unintrusive and I want a scriptable interface. Well, different needs/desires. 1. CPU usage. MPD doesn't use the tremor vorbis library, and thus playing an ogg sucks down about 75% of the CPU. In comparison, with Kagu, the osso-media-server process uses about 25% of the CPU. (Kagu sucks another 10-15% if the screen is active.) For me, playing mp3s, mpd always hovers around 10% cpu. I don't have oggs to play to compare. Ogg Vorbis is a lot more expensive to decode, because the standard libvorbis uses floating point, while (I *believe*) the standard MP3 decoders are fixed point. Or maybe its just that MP3 is cheaper to decode anyway. 2. As a straight port of the Debian MPD package, the mpd server restarts automatically on reboot *and resumes playing the oggs*. This is not good, because it slows down the rest of the reboot process quite a bit, and, since there isn't any free CPU, it sounds *dreadful*. I personally changed the priority of mpd's start. I moved it to S99mpd in /etc/rc2.d so it doesn't start until after everything is loaded. This should be the default, I think. And if it was playing before you rebooted, don't you want it to continue? No. My N800 gets restarted *a lot* more often than my home server. I realize (assume, anyway) you're just porting the standard Debian packages, but it is a different environment. Anyway, good news in your other post about using the tremor lib. I'll give it a shot. Steve -- Steve Greenland The irony is that Bill Gates claims to be making a stable operating system and Linus Torvalds claims to be trying to take over the world. -- seen on the net ___ maemo-users mailing list maemo-users@maemo.org https://lists.maemo.org/mailman/listinfo/maemo-users
Re: Steve's Ranty Review #1: N800 ogg support
According to James Sparenberg [EMAIL PROTECTED]: a. open AM b. get asked if I want to update package lists. c. click to browse installable packages. d. wait for update packages (why it just did an update.) Actually, the update here is updating the soon-to-be-displayed list of uninstalled packages; it's not re-doing the download of the Packages files. Steve -- Steve Greenland The irony is that Bill Gates claims to be making a stable operating system and Linus Torvalds claims to be trying to take over the world. -- seen on the net ___ maemo-users mailing list maemo-users@maemo.org https://lists.maemo.org/mailman/listinfo/maemo-users
Re: Steve's Ranty Review #1: N800 ogg support
On Thursday 18 October 2007 10:16:51 Marius Vollmer wrote:
ext Steve Greenland [EMAIL PROTECTED] writes:
According to Marius Vollmer [EMAIL PROTECTED]:
Can you give more information about how the AM is slower than apt-get?
Do you need to perform too many clicks in the UI to get your task
done, or do you have to wait longer until it has downloaded and
installed the packages?
The frustrations I have with AM are.
1. the update packages event. Every action requires that a full on rescan
of the system be done. Each one taking between 30 to 60 seconds to complete.
2. Searches that return me to the wrong screen. If for example I want to
install pidgin. I search for pidgin and rightfully get a number of packages
(many I need to install some I don't want period) I have to do the following.
a. open AM
b. get asked if I want to update package lists.
c. click to browse installable packages.
d. wait for update packages (why it just did an update.)
c. search for pidgin.
d. chose to install 1st package.
e. click yes I want to install
d. Click yes I know it doesn't come from Nokia
e. Click OK for the install
f. package gets installed
g. click for placement of icon in menu
h. wait for update packages.
i. search for pidgin.
j. etc etc etc etc until all 6 or 7 packages are installed.
Now from a command line apt-cache search {app name) apt-get [list of packages]
then open CP and move icon. Equally as easy on my desktop is open
Adept-Manager (kubuntu) search for app, click check boxes, OK dependencies if
any and done. In truth Adept Manager and synaptic are often easier than
command line (even though I prefer command line.)
James
___
maemo-users mailing list
maemo-users@maemo.org
https://lists.maemo.org/mailman/listinfo/maemo-users
Re: Steve's Ranty Review #1: N800 ogg support
On Thursday 18 October 2007 11:30:34 Marius Gedminas wrote: On Thu, Oct 18, 2007 at 04:48:35PM +, Steve Greenland wrote: snip My other pet peeve is that this encourages binary-only debs which you can't then fix/port to a different SDK version. I sincerely hope Maemo Extras rejects sourceless packages. Marius Gedminas Marius, I would hope that they reject binary packages period, in that like every distro I've worked with you submit a src (rpm deb tgz etc) and the distro builds from that file so that at least some assurance can be made that it's build from the correct environment. You then have 3 levels of packages. 1. Nokia produced and vetted. 2. Packages created by Authorized developers (ones know and trusted by Nokia) aka Extra's then contrib. Various users/packagers/developers not as well know can contribute src packages here for a contribs section. This last section of course, having a much lower guarantee of functional quality. James ___ maemo-users mailing list maemo-users@maemo.org https://lists.maemo.org/mailman/listinfo/maemo-users
Re: Steve's Ranty Review #1: N800 ogg support
On 10/18/07, Tilman Vogel [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: Hi! First of all: Thanks for your review! You wouldn't believe how few feedback you get these days: The mogg d/l counters show that quite some people try it, but we get no feedback. So you're tempted to believe everybody is happy. So thanks again! Steve Greenland schrieb: Current state of ogg support, 17-October-2007. Firstly, for some unknown reason there are *two* different ogg support packages. One, from Tuomas Kulve, I'll call 'ogg-support'. The second, by Marko Nykanen and Tilman Vogel (according to the garage page,but see below), is 'mogg'. Yes, this is unfortunate. I think mogg existed first and I was surprised about the second attempt, but on the other hand at that time none of the mogg people had an IT OS 2007 scratchbox set up, so nobody can be blamed. I (silently - my fault) had hoped somebody (maybe Tuomas Kulve) would contact us to join on mogg some day and support it on the N800. Anyway, I did some clean-up work on the gstreamer tremor plugin. Some of these changes make it work with the maemo audio player and kagu. The changes are documented and can easily be diffed between the upstream tremor plugin and the mogg version. I mentioned this to Tuomas Kulve and he offered me to join his project. I have not responded yet and the reason is that he tries to maintain the whole gstreamer-plugins-bad package. I didn't want to do this as I was just interested in the tremor codec and because the package is quite edgy, I decided to separate the tremor plugin into its own package. I am really not keen on going back to the bad package. Actually, as soon as tremor get's kind of maintained again, it should leave the bad package anyway. Plus, I don't have an N800, so, blame me, I am a bit egoistic about investing more work in this, but vice versa, I'd be happy to have N800 developers (Tuomas?) on the mogg project! Mogg is available from r.m.o extras. Yea. The packages file shows the maintainer for 'mogg' to be Jussi Kukkonen. Libraries are pulled from r.m.o when available, no obvious dupes. Ok, I'll update that soon. Jussi Kukkonen recently left the project out of time constraints. Onto the players. Built in media player: doesn't work. Mogg claims that it should (and maybe it does in the IT2006 version), but it doesn't even find the files on the card. (It does find MP3s.) Ok, I am interested in this because it works on IT OS 2006. Do you have any hints, which files might be missing/wrong? /usr/share/mime/packages/ogg-vorbis.xml should register *.ogg as audio/x-vorbis and it seems on IT OS 2006, the audio player shows all files of type audio/*. So, long story short (too late!) I'm using kagu with the mogg libraries. Yes, me too. Thanks again! This is good discussion. I hope that all the splintered ogg implementations come together. I have not gotten any of them to work satisfactorily on the built in media player and only maginally on some of the third-party players. The ogg/tremour codec should be pushed down the the infrastructure level ... it is a bit crazy to carry around multiple versions of it so that oggs can be played in different players ... especially on an embedded device. I would seem that everyone (including Nokia) is waiting for someone else to pull everything together. Maybe all implementors can get focused around the appropriate bugzilla ( https://bugs.maemo.org/show_bug.cgi?id=176 ) and hash out a common gstreamer codec so that everyone can benefit from it and benefit from any future fixes. Now is the time since everything (including all the media players) will need to be rebuilt for Chinook. /Mike ___ maemo-users mailing list maemo-users@maemo.org https://lists.maemo.org/mailman/listinfo/maemo-users
Steve's Ranty Review #1: N800 ogg support
Background: I'm a long-time Debian user and developer, and have grown used to 'apt-get install somepackage' *working*. That's one of the reasons I purchased the n800; I naively expected that having adopted the best packaging *tools* available, the maemo community might also adopt the Debian packaging *practices*. You need *both* to get the Debian experience. Others have ranted about the general problems, and it appears that Nokia and the maemo devels have plans to try to fix the problems, so I won't repeat the rant here. Except as it applies to the specific packages, of course. Current state of ogg support, 17-October-2007. Summary: the good news is that you can play oggs with N800. The bad news? Read on...but let me first throw out a big thank you to all the people who have worked on this. I rant because it's more fun to write rants, and because if you don't write about the problems there's not much to say, but I *can* play oggs on my N800, and I appreciate that. Also, if I there are any errors, please correct them. I've not spent days on this, just a little poking around. Firstly, for some unknown reason there are *two* different ogg support packages. One, from Tuomas Kulve, I'll call 'ogg-support'. The second, by Marko Nykanen and Tilman Vogel (according to the garage page,but see below), is 'mogg'. Ogg-support is available from Mr. Kulve's repo at http://tuomas.kulve.fi/debian, along with the necessary supporting libraries and gstreamer plugins. Mr. Kulve signed the repo, and his GPG key is available from the keyservers. (This is good.) OTOH, some of the libraries are duplicates (by name, at least) of those available from repository.maemo.org. This is bad, because as versions churn, you might sometimes get the version from t.k.f, and other times from r.m.o. If this works, then there's no reason to have the duplicates to begin with. At least one of the package (gstreamer0.10-plugins-good-kulve) claims to be maintained by a Nokia person, rather than Mr. Kulve. Mr. Kulve - you've done lots of good work here; please update the control files properly before your next build. Mogg is available from r.m.o extras. Yea. The packages file shows the maintainer for 'mogg' to be Jussi Kukkonen. Libraries are pulled from r.m.o when available, no obvious dupes. Onto the players. Built in media player: doesn't work. Mogg claims that it should (and maybe it does in the IT2006 version), but it doesn't even find the files on the card. (It does find MP3s.) Canola: I've no idea if this works with either. Besides not being free software, it wants to run some web-based configuration system. Which didn't work for me. I lost interest. UKMP (v 1.61): By Urho Konttori. No repository. The one-click install on the maemo website is to the .deb, rather than an install file. Package depends on python2.5-runtime (and all *its* dependencies), but since it's a deb rather than in apt-able repository, you'd have to manage it by hand. Oh, and though the webpage calls it UKMP, and the .deb is name UKMP, it actually installs as mediacenter, and creates a menu entry called UKTUBE. Yea consistency! It did find my oggs. Yea! It crashes when trying to play them (with mogg, didn't try ogg-support). Boo!. (To be fair, Mr Konttori notes that ogg support is not good at the moment.) Kilikali (v 0.2): Also by Tuomos Kulve, from his repo. Works (no surprise) with ogg-support, doesn't with mogg (no sound). But it's a pretty barren experience: the library interface is just a list of files, in random order. Also, when loading files into the library, it doesn't recursively scan the directory tree; instead, one must visit each directory and load the files one-at-a-time. Oh, and it restarts at the top folder (Gnochii) each time. Also, it loads (to the library list) *all* the files it finds, not just the music files. I realize that this is a work in progress, but it's hard to recommend right now. Kagu: package maintained by Jesse Guardini. The homepage lists the authors as trevarthan and disq. Installed from r.m.o/extras. Well, sort of: the postinst fails because it tries to run the scanner, which needs X11, which doesn't work when you're ssh'd into the N800 running apt-get. Not only that, it does this on upgrades as well as the initial install. (Digression: why am I not using the Application Manager? Well, besides the fact that apt-get is the One True Way, the AM is *slow*. And unreliable (upgrades and updates often fail, but work with apt-get). And there's no obvious way to upgrade packages except one at a time, which is both slow and tedious. End digression). There are two work-arounds: go to the AM, *remove* kagu, and then re-install. This, you will be amazed to find, is slow. The second is to edit /var/lib/dpkg/info/kagu.postinst and comment out the line that calls kagu-scanner, and then run dpkg --configure --pending. This is much faster, but must be redone for each upgrade. The next step is to run the scanner, which found the oggs
Re: Steve's Ranty Review #1: N800 ogg support
Sorry about the ticket stuff, and thanks for the ranty review :) Scanner is ran on postinst with a special parameter (--install) to either upgrade/wipe the song db or to update the theme cache. It shouldn't be needing X11 in that state, (and doesn't for me) though I didn't try it with dpkg/apt. If Kagu was not installed before, the postinst process should be pretty fast since it just tries to read the db version and wipes it if it's old, requiring kagu to run scanner on its first run. OTOH if Kagu _was_ installed before, and the db version didn't change (ie. upgrading from 1.0.8 to 1.0.9 it didn't) it will utilize pygame and rebuild your artist/album imagecache. Shouldn't take more than a few secs provided you don't use the cover art functionality. I have to admit if you have a lot of images it will take some time. I have 180 different cover images and just timed it, takes nearly 150 seconds (uh) for me. Kagu features and wishlist is discussed in ITT forums (there's a thread for each release though a little disorganized category-wise) or in #kagu, then developers create the tickets as they see fit. But the effing warning sign idea is good. Thanks for your time again. On 10/18/07, Steve Greenland [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: Kagu: package maintained by Jesse Guardini. The homepage lists the authors as trevarthan and disq. Installed from r.m.o/extras. Well, sort of: the postinst fails because it tries to run the scanner, which needs X11, which doesn't work when you're ssh'd into the N800 running apt-get. Not only that, it does this on upgrades as well as the initial install. (Digression: why am I not using the Application Manager? Well, besides the fact that apt-get is the One True Way, the AM is *slow*. And unreliable (upgrades and updates often fail, but work with apt-get). And there's no obvious way to upgrade packages except one at a time, which is both slow and tedious. End digression). There are two work-arounds: go to the AM, *remove* kagu, and then re-install. This, you will be amazed to find, is slow. The second is to edit /var/lib/dpkg/info/kagu.postinst and comment out the line that calls kagu-scanner, and then run dpkg --configure --pending. This is much faster, but must be redone for each upgrade. The next step is to run the scanner, which found the oggs (recursively). Yea. Why is the scanner a completely separate program? I don't know. Why are people so enamoured of having album covers on a memory limited device? I don't know that, either, but at least you can disable it. Anyway, once you get past the niggly bits, it works. Well, with mogg, but not, AFAICT, with ogg-support. With ogg-support, it finds the oggs, and lists them, and says it's playing them, but no sound. The interface is overly fancy, to my taste, and not particularly snappy, but does work. (Except why can't I add an album directly to the playlist? I have to go to the song listing for the album. One should be able to add the current selection (artist, album, song) to the playlist without burrowing through the menus. So, long story short (too late!) I'm using kagu with the mogg libraries. Now, a quick rant at the kagu developers: you get bonus points for using trac, but letting your users spend their valuable time entering a bug report (New Ticket, in trac language) to help *you* improve your product, but then rejecting the ticket as unauthorized is just a giant Screw You to your users. OTOH, is does keep the bug reports down. Either make it useful, or just disable the new ticket functionality, or at least post a BIG EFFING WARNING NOT TO WASTE MY TIME. Ah, now I feel better. Hey, don't complain. I told you it was a rant in the subject line. Regards, Steve -- Kemal ___ maemo-users mailing list maemo-users@maemo.org https://lists.maemo.org/mailman/listinfo/maemo-users
Re: Steve's Ranty Review #1: N800 ogg support
According to Kemal Hadimli [EMAIL PROTECTED]: Sorry about the ticket stuff, and thanks for the ranty review :) Thanks for taking it in the intended spirit. Scanner is ran on postinst with a special parameter (--install) to either upgrade/wipe the song db or to update the theme cache. It shouldn't be needing X11 in that state, (and doesn't for me) though I didn't try it with dpkg/apt. Here's the error message: # su user - -c /usr/bin/kagu-scanner --install debug1: client_input_channel_open: ctype x11 rchan 1 win 8000 max 8000 debug1: client_request_x11: request from 127.0.0.1 40210 debug1: channel 1: new [x11] debug1: confirm x11 X11 connection rejected because of wrong authentication. debug1: channel 1: free: x11, nchannels 2 ./kagu-scanner.py:23: RuntimeWarning: import cdrom: No module named cdrom import sqlite3,os,mutagen,mutagen.easyid3,urllib,string,math,pygame,sys,time ./kagu-scanner.py:23: RuntimeWarning: import joystick: No module named joystick import sqlite3,os,mutagen,mutagen.easyid3,urllib,string,math,pygame,sys,time The application 'kagu-scanner.py' lost its connection to the display localhost:10.0; most likely the X server was shut down or you killed/destroyed the application. (The debug1: messages are, I think, from ssh/dropbear. The problem is that there is no xauth binary for the N800 that I've been able to find.) Unsetting DISPLAY, I get this: # su user - -c /usr/bin/kagu-scanner --install ./kagu-scanner.py:23: RuntimeWarning: import cdrom: No module named cdrom import sqlite3,os,mutagen,mutagen.easyid3,urllib,string,math,pygame,sys,time ./kagu-scanner.py:23: RuntimeWarning: import joystick: No module named joystick import sqlite3,os,mutagen,mutagen.easyid3,urllib,string,math,pygame,sys,time Traceback (most recent call last): File ./kagu-scanner.py, line 24, in module import pygtk,gtk,gobject File debian/python2.5-gtk2/usr/lib/python2.5/site-packages/gtk-2.0/gtk/__init__.py, line 83, in module File debian/python2.5-gtk2/usr/lib/python2.5/site-packages/gtk-2.0/gtk/__init__.py, line 70, in _init NameError: global name '_gtk' is not defined So what it looks like is that the import of pygtk (or gtk) is trying to initialize the X11 system, and failing. Maybe modifying the scanner so it doesn't do the import on the --install codepath? If Kagu was not installed before, the postinst process should be pretty fast since it just tries to read the db version and wipes it if it's old, requiring kagu to run scanner on its first run. Oh, it's plenty fast (when installing via the AM). The slowness I was whining about was the application manager. OTOH if Kagu _was_ installed before, and the db version didn't change (ie. upgrading from 1.0.8 to 1.0.9 it didn't) it will utilize pygame and rebuild your artist/album imagecache. Shouldn't take more than a few secs provided you don't use the cover art functionality. I have to admit if you have a lot of images it will take some time. I have 180 different cover images and just timed it, takes nearly 150 seconds (uh) for me. If I was installing via the AM, and it hung for 150 seconds with no visible output, I'd be worried. Kagu features and wishlist is discussed in ITT forums (there's a thread for each release though a little disorganized category-wise) or in #kagu, Okay, I'll poke around there. Thanks for the response. Steve -- Steve Greenland The irony is that Bill Gates claims to be making a stable operating system and Linus Torvalds claims to be trying to take over the world. -- seen on the net ___ maemo-users mailing list maemo-users@maemo.org https://lists.maemo.org/mailman/listinfo/maemo-users
