[RBW] Re: Would it be against the law - a tigged Rivendell?
Me thinks I missed it or you be making up stuff. Usually on this site when people disagree they avoid getting personal. Me thinks you missed that. Do a search on this site. When the Roadeo was first announced, Grant himself posted here and said specifically it was a bike he probably would not have designed were it not for avid support of his club racing employee. Even without the posts from Grant himself, the bike is designed for drops and has no braze ons for racks. Look at all the other bikes in the current and past line up. In fact, the primary thing that makes the Roadeo a Riv? As pointed out in the Catalog and on the Riv site - lugged steel. (and again, lugs are mentioned multiple times in the catalog.) On Dec 11, 6:09 pm, eflayer eddie.fla...@att.net wrote: There is no place I found in the catalogue Grant says anything about the Roadeo being out there from a Riv perspective. Me thinks I missed it or you be making up stuff. On Dec 11, 12:11 pm, JoelMatthews joelmatth...@mac.com wrote: Headtubes on BLT and BLTaiwans are short... Geometry is close to the Hilborne. But it does look as if little old BG is sourcing his own upjutting Salsa (old) quill stems. Bruce has been making quill stems long before there was a Salsa. His is a heavy duty design. But guess what, delicate Nitto's fit in the head tube as well. Bet the BLTaiwans weigh a ton. Don't want a tank. Want an all around 700c. I expect you would lose that bet. BG says the BLT uses same tubing as the Rock n' Road. Given its formidable strength, the R'n'R is a surprisingly light bike. I am sure the BLT would be equally adroit as a day to day 700 as a tourer. Let's call it a tigged Roadeo with Vbrakes, powder and a headbadge. See the Riv Catalogue link John at Riv just posted. Grant describes the Roadeo as being way out there from a Riv perspective. (The catalogue also gives prominent props to lugs by the way) Yet you think dropping the lugs and changing the geometry would be in his comfort range? On Dec 11, 1:35 pm, eflayer eddie.fla...@att.net wrote: Headtubes on BLT and BLTaiwans are short... But it does look as if little old BG is sourcing his own upjutting Salsa (old) quill stems. Bet the BLTaiwans weigh a ton. Don't want a tank. Want an all around 700c. Let's call it a tigged Roadeo with Vbrakes, powder and a headbadge. On Dec 11, 11:28 am, Eric Norris campyonly...@me.com wrote: There are still millions upon millions of bikes out there with threaded headsets, many of them owned by people of limited means who will need to fix them rather than buy a new bike. Ditto for bikes with freewheels. That's why it's still possible to buy freewheels in this age of cassettes c and why it will be possible for some time to find traditional threaded headsets. They just may not be Record or DuraAce quality. On Dec 11, 2009, at 11:19 AM, Steve Palincsar palin...@his.com wrote: On Fri, 2009-12-11 at 11:03 -0800, Jim Thill - Hiawatha Cyclery wrote: Threaded stems and headsets are pretty much obsolete on new- production bikes, and the number of threaded stem/headset options is small and getting smaller. There are a few holdouts, like Riv and some custom shops, but I think even they see the writing on the wall (Legolas was threadless, and Roadeo apparently has a threadless option). More like catering to the tastes of the intended audience than seeing the handwriting on the wall. If it were the latter, wouldn't you expect the frames designed since the Legolas (such as the Hillborne, Foy, etc) to similarly acknowledge the presence of said handwriting? As individuals, we can deal with obsolete or obscure parts with ebay and other small sources. But a bike manufacturer, who needs to order hundreds or thousands of headsets per year has to consider the risks of not having enough headsets for this year, and for service in years to come. It appears that Velo Orange, far smaller than most bike manufacturers, had no difficulty sourcing high quality threaded headsets for the VO brand. I think fears of the availability of threaded headsets are greatly exaggerated. -- You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups RBW Owners Bunch group. To post to this group, send email to rbw-owners- bu...@googlegroups.com. To unsubscribe from this group, send email to rbw-owners-bunch+unsubscr...@googlegroups.com . For more options, visit this group athttp://groups.google.com/group/rbw-owners-bunch?hl=en .- Hide quoted text - - Show quoted text -- Hide quoted text - - Show quoted text -- Hide quoted text - - Show quoted text - -- You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups RBW Owners Bunch
[RBW] Re: Would it be against the law - a tigged Rivendell?
If Grant built his own frames in house, is he required to pay Union wages? He ought to start a school and teach smart energetic kids how to weld and he could make his own steel lugged frames in Walnut Creek...Sure the good ones would eventually leave and start their own companies or go on to work for someone else, but ALOT of folks need jobs, even early retirees. They realize upfront that the pay is low, but you are learning a trade, and there is some fun associated with RIV.I don't know why he couldnt still make a good product and make a good profit and forget Tiawan. PSI also hate the fact that the Foy and Gomez don't have the cream two-tone Head badge..It may seem like a small thing, but its a comprimise that starts down the slope of ...whats next? A TIG - WELDED RIV?..NEVER! sURF -- You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups RBW Owners Bunch group. To post to this group, send email to rbw-owners-bu...@googlegroups.com. To unsubscribe from this group, send email to rbw-owners-bunch+unsubscr...@googlegroups.com. For more options, visit this group at http://groups.google.com/group/rbw-owners-bunch?hl=en.
RE: [RBW] Re: Would it be against the law - a tigged Rivendell?
There's a simple matter of finite capital, as well. Riv is always struggling with lack of capital when trying to bring products to market. I'd imagine they have to be pretty selective about what sorts of products they'll focus on, and I don't see a budget frame that fails to meet their aesthetic standards, focus and stated mission as a high priority... ...plus I don't believe Riv makes that much of it's money on frames/bikes. I'll bet it's made mostly on clothing, parts and accessories, things you can't easily get elsewhere. Steve likes lugs, likes Riv, Frederick, East Lansing, MI -- You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups RBW Owners Bunch group. To post to this group, send email to rbw-owners-bu...@googlegroups.com. To unsubscribe from this group, send email to rbw-owners-bunch+unsubscr...@googlegroups.com. For more options, visit this group at http://groups.google.com/group/rbw-owners-bunch?hl=en.
[RBW] Re: Would it be against the law - a tigged Rivendell?
I am both impressed and dismayed with the degree of commitment to a single point of view. Whatever works works. Thinking there was a time when Grant thought he'd never leave Japan for Taiwan...and that time came. Granted, he is still making gorgeous lugged frames, now with cheaper labor. If Riv does make most of the profits on parts, then why not sell another Riv branded entry price gorgeous tigged frameset so more customers buy more parts? I see mostly upside for everyone and no downside. Except if it divides attention and leads to a loss of direction. But I'm betting a sharp marketeer such as is Grant Peterson could find a way to sell this kool aid to all of the naysayer in this group. On Dec 11, 6:32 am, PATRICK MOORE bertin...@gmail.com wrote: From past remarks I expect that this will never fly, but in my own opinion, the essential qualities of a Riv are the frame design and, thus, fit and handling, and these are perfectly compatible with a cheaper, tigg'd frame for, say, the commuter markets. On Thu, Dec 10, 2009 at 2:38 PM, eflayer eddie.fla...@att.net wrote: I know it goes against the grain of everything we stand for here. Actually, what do we stand for here? But don't you think Riv/Grant could do a really really good job on a tigged frameset. No need to sully the Riv name or brand, but maybe a Toyota type thing...and the lugged Rivs could be the Lexuses. There are currently a lot of entries in the tigged Riv-like bike set. But somehow I think Grant's attention to color, geometry, style could equal the best of the lot. Just thing a beautifully tigged Riv bike at maybe $650? He could call it the Tiggua brand. -- You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups RBW Owners Bunch group. To post to this group, send email to rbw-owners-bu...@googlegroups.com. To unsubscribe from this group, send email to rbw-owners-bunch+unsubscr...@googlegroups.comrbw-owners-bunch%2bunsubscrib...@googlegroups.com . For more options, visit this group at http://groups.google.com/group/rbw-owners-bunch?hl=en. -- Patrick Moore Albuquerque, NM For professional resumes, contact Patrick Moore, ACRW at resumespecialt...@gmail.com (505) 227-0523- Hide quoted text - - Show quoted text - -- You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups RBW Owners Bunch group. To post to this group, send email to rbw-owners-bu...@googlegroups.com. To unsubscribe from this group, send email to rbw-owners-bunch+unsubscr...@googlegroups.com. For more options, visit this group at http://groups.google.com/group/rbw-owners-bunch?hl=en.
Re: [RBW] Re: Would it be against the law - a tigged Rivendell?
On Fri, 2009-12-11 at 07:14 -0800, eflayer wrote: I am both impressed and dismayed with the degree of commitment to a single point of view. Whatever works works. Thinking there was a time when Grant thought he'd never leave Japan for Taiwan...and that time came. Granted, he is still making gorgeous lugged frames, now with cheaper labor. If Riv does make most of the profits on parts, then why not sell another Riv branded entry price gorgeous tigged frameset so more customers buy more parts? I see mostly upside for everyone and no downside. Except if it divides attention and leads to a loss of direction. But I'm betting a sharp marketeer such as is Grant Peterson could find a way to sell this kool aid to all of the naysayer in this group. It's Grant, not us, who have defined Rivendell's core value as lugged steel. He's said before, it's what defines Rivendell. If that's true, what you're asking is for him to give up his core value, lose his central focus, dilute his brand identity -- and all so you could have a cheaper offering? Race to the bottom was never a Rivendell value of any kind, why should it be one now? I think you're overlooking the obvious answer. Get a Surly LHT, get it powdercoated in Atlantis green, put on a set of Resurrectio decals and be happy. It's exactly the bike you want, and a price that Rivendell could never match because of economies of scale. -- You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups RBW Owners Bunch group. To post to this group, send email to rbw-owners-bu...@googlegroups.com. To unsubscribe from this group, send email to rbw-owners-bunch+unsubscr...@googlegroups.com. For more options, visit this group at http://groups.google.com/group/rbw-owners-bunch?hl=en.
Re: [RBW] Re: Would it be against the law - a tigged Rivendell?
On Fri, Dec 11, 2009 at 9:14 AM, eflayer eddie.fla...@att.net wrote: I am both impressed and dismayed with the degree of commitment to a single point of view. Whatever works works. Thinking there was a time when Grant thought he'd never leave Japan for Taiwan...and that time came. Granted, he is still making gorgeous lugged frames, now with cheaper labor. If Riv does make most of the profits on parts, then why not sell another Riv branded entry price gorgeous tigged frameset so more customers buy more parts? I see mostly upside for everyone and no downside. Except if it divides attention and leads to a loss of direction. But I'm betting a sharp marketeer such as is Grant Peterson could find a way to sell this kool aid to all of the naysayer in this group. Ant, Waterford, Independent Fabrication, Moots - they all do lovely work with TIG'd frames, and they're arguably beautiful bikes, but it's a very different aesthetic than even the 'plain' single color Riv frames. The move to Taiwan production was, i think, a pure matter of survival. With the weakness of the dollar against the yen, they just couldn't afford to do business. I applaud Grant's stubborn aesthetic sense; he has a cohesive vision for the company, and that strong visual identity is a huge asset. Like Jim noted, there were many who claimed that Riv would be huge if they could sell a sub-$1k frame. Well, they produced it in the Bleriot and the following Taiwan-built bikes, and with each there's a small rush of pent-up demand, then it's back to business as usual. Certainly it's helping to grow Riv's market, but it's incremental. I don't have any sort of sales info, but i'll bet that a large percentage of those Taiwan frames are going to existing Riv customers as a second bike or friend/spouse bikes, and not as much to new customers as you'd think. That's pure guesswork, but based on some shop experience and lots of friends on Rivendells. The frames are the heart of the company. Most of us started buying small bits from Rivendell long before we could afford a frame, and accessories long after the frame, but it's that bike frame and the ride that it gives that makes the whole package work. If you take away the essential beauty of the frames, there's much less reason to stay around for the parts and bags and clothes and everything else. -- Bill Connell St. Paul, MN -- You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups RBW Owners Bunch group. To post to this group, send email to rbw-owners-bu...@googlegroups.com. To unsubscribe from this group, send email to rbw-owners-bunch+unsubscr...@googlegroups.com. For more options, visit this group at http://groups.google.com/group/rbw-owners-bunch?hl=en.
[RBW] Re: Would it be against the law - a tigged Rivendell?
I think of Taiwan as going through a similar process to what Japan went through in the 80's in terms of bicycle production. Right now they are the seat of bicycle manufacture in the world. That's not surprising as the current exchange from Taiwan Dollars to U.S. Dollars is something like 30:1.That will change eventually, of course- who knows, 20 years from now* everybody might be thinking, like, WOW, you mean I can STILL buy a frame that was made in Taiwan?! AWESOME!! 11!As most manufacturers will have moved production to insert least-likely locale here (in between now and then, of course, there is China). *If the human race has not been wiped out by H1N1 and mortgage-backed securities. On Dec 11, 10:14 am, eflayer eddie.fla...@att.net wrote: I am both impressed and dismayed with the degree of commitment to a single point of view. Whatever works works. Thinking there was a time when Grant thought he'd never leave Japan for Taiwan...and that time came. Granted, he is still making gorgeous lugged frames, now with cheaper labor. If Riv does make most of the profits on parts, then why not sell another Riv branded entry price gorgeous tigged frameset so more customers buy more parts? I see mostly upside for everyone and no downside. Except if it divides attention and leads to a loss of direction. But I'm betting a sharp marketeer such as is Grant Peterson could find a way to sell this kool aid to all of the naysayer in this group. -- You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups RBW Owners Bunch group. To post to this group, send email to rbw-owners-bu...@googlegroups.com. To unsubscribe from this group, send email to rbw-owners-bunch+unsubscr...@googlegroups.com. For more options, visit this group at http://groups.google.com/group/rbw-owners-bunch?hl=en.
[RBW] Re: Would it be against the law - a tigged Rivendell?
Steve, This is not about me. It is an idea. Please don't take it as an attack on everything you and Riv stand for. Just an idea. Companies can change mission and values if there is a good reason to do so. If part of the mission was to give more people a chance to ride a Grant designed masterpiece, with or without lugs...then tigged would all of sudden be part of the mission. Just because you and many others here don't see it, doesn't mean it can't or won't happen. Think of all the discussion we could have then. $700 tigged, $1000 Sam, $2000 Roadeo, $2500 custom. I'd buy it before Kogswell, Suly, SomaFab, Rawland, VO, etc. And I bet many others would too. So not about me, just an idea. .\\ On Dec 11, 7:32 am, Steve Palincsar palin...@his.com wrote: On Fri, 2009-12-11 at 07:14 -0800, eflayer wrote: I am both impressed and dismayed with the degree of commitment to a single point of view. Whatever works works. Thinking there was a time when Grant thought he'd never leave Japan for Taiwan...and that time came. Granted, he is still making gorgeous lugged frames, now with cheaper labor. If Riv does make most of the profits on parts, then why not sell another Riv branded entry price gorgeous tigged frameset so more customers buy more parts? I see mostly upside for everyone and no downside. Except if it divides attention and leads to a loss of direction. But I'm betting a sharp marketeer such as is Grant Peterson could find a way to sell this kool aid to all of the naysayer in this group. It's Grant, not us, who have defined Rivendell's core value as lugged steel. He's said before, it's what defines Rivendell. If that's true, what you're asking is for him to give up his core value, lose his central focus, dilute his brand identity -- and all so you could have a cheaper offering? Race to the bottom was never a Rivendell value of any kind, why should it be one now? I think you're overlooking the obvious answer. Get a Surly LHT, get it powdercoated in Atlantis green, put on a set of Resurrectio decals and be happy. It's exactly the bike you want, and a price that Rivendell could never match because of economies of scale. -- You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups RBW Owners Bunch group. To post to this group, send email to rbw-owners-bu...@googlegroups.com. To unsubscribe from this group, send email to rbw-owners-bunch+unsubscr...@googlegroups.com. For more options, visit this group at http://groups.google.com/group/rbw-owners-bunch?hl=en.
[RBW] Re: Would it be against the law - a tigged Rivendell?
Commitment to core values is just good business sense. This comes down to branding. The Rivendell brand is synonymous with lugged steel bikes. Introducing a TIG bike would create brand drift away from that core value, and that is a bad thing. They would have to offer TIG frames under a separate brand name (like Waterford/Gunnar) if they wanted anything to do with this. They would have to become a two t-shirt company. That said, those who've used the high quality products offered by Rivendell probably wish they could make everything. Maybe a laptop computer that lasts more than 3 years, etc. -- You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups RBW Owners Bunch group. To post to this group, send email to rbw-owners-bu...@googlegroups.com. To unsubscribe from this group, send email to rbw-owners-bunch+unsubscr...@googlegroups.com. For more options, visit this group at http://groups.google.com/group/rbw-owners-bunch?hl=en.
Re: [RBW] Re: Would it be against the law - a tigged Rivendell?
On Fri, 2009-12-11 at 07:44 -0800, eflayer wrote: Steve, This is not about me. It is an idea. Please don't take it as an attack on everything you and Riv stand for. Just an idea. I don't take it as an attack -- certainly not an attack on anything I stand for. If adopted, it is an idea that would, I believe, harm Rivendell by causing it to lose its focus. Companies can change mission and values if there is a good reason to do so. Yes, and often that turns out to be the road to hell. Abercrombie and Fitch, anyone? If part of the mission was to give more people a chance to ride a Grant designed masterpiece, with or without lugs...then tigged would all of sudden be part of the mission. That isn't how /he/ sees it, based on what he's said about it in the past. Just because you and many others here don't see it, doesn't mean it can't or won't happen. I have nothing to do with it. I'm not even an enemy of welded frames. I have two steel TIG welded frames and I like them just fine. I don't define my core identity as LUGGED STEEL. I believe Rivendell does. Think of all the discussion we could have then. $700 tigged, $1000 Sam, $2000 Roadeo, $2500 custom. I'd buy it before Kogswell, Suly, SomaFab, Rawland, VO, etc. And I bet many others would too. So not about me, just an idea. How about a fully equipped Atlantis for $1095? Here it is: http://www.surlybikes.com/bikes/long_haul_trucker_complete/ -- You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups RBW Owners Bunch group. To post to this group, send email to rbw-owners-bu...@googlegroups.com. To unsubscribe from this group, send email to rbw-owners-bunch+unsubscr...@googlegroups.com. For more options, visit this group at http://groups.google.com/group/rbw-owners-bunch?hl=en.
RE: [RBW] Re: Would it be against the law - a tigged Rivendell?
Bill Connell wrote, in part: ...I applaud Grant's stubborn aesthetic sense; he has a cohesive vision for the company, and that strong visual identity is a huge asset... Yeah, I think they'd stand to lose more than they gain if they wander too far from that vision. I recall in an early Reader, Grant talked about how you used to be able to tell a bike's brand by it's Lug design. That it was a signature of sorts. And how he hoped that in 100 years, someone could dig a Rivendell out of a trash heap, paint and decals gone, rusty and filthy and see the lugs and say wow, this is a Rivendell! That matters to him and I suspect to most of us, too. Steve Frederick, East Lansing, MI -- You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups RBW Owners Bunch group. To post to this group, send email to rbw-owners-bu...@googlegroups.com. To unsubscribe from this group, send email to rbw-owners-bunch+unsubscr...@googlegroups.com. For more options, visit this group at http://groups.google.com/group/rbw-owners-bunch?hl=en.
[RBW] Re: Would it be against the law - a tigged Rivendell?
Grant is capable of changing though, isn't he. I think you are all correct and he probably won't consider tig. But as I recall he both never used to mention the weight of bikes, framesets and now look at how he is discussing/selling the lightness of Roadeo. I know the Roadeo fits the lugged mission, but here he is drifting toward the lightness factor. Really my ideal was to get the lightness, that geo, quill, rear rack brazeons, canti/vbrakes, in a $700-$1000 price point. And I thought off shore and tigged was a good formula. I can easily let it go as my Fuji is all of that, but lacks some pinache. On Dec 11, 7:52 am, Frederick, Steve frede...@mail.lib.msu.edu wrote: Bill Connell wrote, in part: ...I applaud Grant's stubborn aesthetic sense; he has a cohesive vision for the company, and that strong visual identity is a huge asset... Yeah, I think they'd stand to lose more than they gain if they wander too far from that vision. I recall in an early Reader, Grant talked about how you used to be able to tell a bike's brand by it's Lug design. That it was a signature of sorts. And how he hoped that in 100 years, someone could dig a Rivendell out of a trash heap, paint and decals gone, rusty and filthy and see the lugs and say wow, this is a Rivendell! That matters to him and I suspect to most of us, too. Steve Frederick, East Lansing, MI -- You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups RBW Owners Bunch group. To post to this group, send email to rbw-owners-bu...@googlegroups.com. To unsubscribe from this group, send email to rbw-owners-bunch+unsubscr...@googlegroups.com. For more options, visit this group at http://groups.google.com/group/rbw-owners-bunch?hl=en.
Re: [RBW] Re: Would it be against the law - a tigged Rivendell?
on 12/11/09 7:14 AM, eflayer at eddie.fla...@att.net wrote: I am both impressed and dismayed with the degree of commitment to a single point of view. Whatever works works. Thinking there was a time when Grant thought he'd never leave Japan for Taiwan...and that time came. Granted, he is still making gorgeous lugged frames, now with cheaper labor. If Riv does make most of the profits on parts, then why not sell another Riv branded entry price gorgeous tigged frameset so more customers buy more parts? I see mostly upside for everyone and no downside. Except if it divides attention and leads to a loss of direction. I think the inherent flaw is the idea of a gorgeous tig-welded bicycle frame. Personally, I don't see anything wrong with that method of frame building, but they've never struck me as particularly good looking. The other downside (as another noted) certainly would be stress on working capital. Inventory costs money and needs to turn. Bike frames are relatively slow movers and expensive. Also, where do you stick 100 bike frames? Maybe you have to rent more space, hire an extra employee to manage and pack that part of the business. More expense, and probably more expense than than the sale of those bikes would cover. All of which sidesteps my basic question of why a TIG-welded frame is so important. The idea of using lugs to join frame tubes is a valid craft that Rivendell has chosen to maintain. - Jim -- Jim Edgar cyclofi...@earthlink.net Cyclofiend Bicycle Photo Galleries - http://www.cyclofiend.com Current Classics - Cross Bikes Singlespeed - Working Bikes Send In Your Photos! - Here's how: http://www.cyclofiend.com/guidelines There were messengers who named their bikes, but Chevette never would have done that, and somehow because she did think about it like it was something alive. William Gibson - Virtual Light -- You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups RBW Owners Bunch group. To post to this group, send email to rbw-owners-bu...@googlegroups.com. To unsubscribe from this group, send email to rbw-owners-bunch+unsubscr...@googlegroups.com. For more options, visit this group at http://groups.google.com/group/rbw-owners-bunch?hl=en.
Re: [RBW] Re: Would it be against the law - a tigged Rivendell?
on 12/11/09 8:02 AM, eflayer at eddie.fla...@att.net wrote: Grant is capable of changing though, isn't he. I think you are all correct and he probably won't consider tig. But as I recall he both never used to mention the weight of bikes, framesets and now look at how he is discussing/selling the lightness of Roadeo. I know the Roadeo fits the lugged mission, but here he is drifting toward the lightness factor. I think he usually talks about the qualities of each design in the context of how they are used. For the Roadeo, which is geared towards a club riding idea, weight is certainly part of the equation. For most other applications, it isn't as big a deal as large manufacturers would have everyone believe. It doesn't really strike me incompatible with any earlier statements. Really my ideal was to get the lightness, that geo, quill, rear rack brazeons, canti/vbrakes, in a $700-$1000 price point. And I thought off shore and tigged was a good formula. I thought that was the Sam Hillborne... - Jim -- Jim Edgar cyclofi...@earthlink.net Cyclofiend Bicycle Photo Galleries - http://www.cyclofiend.com Current Classics - Cross Bikes Singlespeed - Working Bikes Send In Your Photos! - Here's how: http://www.cyclofiend.com/guidelines There were messengers who named their bikes, but Chevette never would have done that, and somehow because she did think about it like it was something alive. William Gibson - Virtual Light -- You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups RBW Owners Bunch group. To post to this group, send email to rbw-owners-bu...@googlegroups.com. To unsubscribe from this group, send email to rbw-owners-bunch+unsubscr...@googlegroups.com. For more options, visit this group at http://groups.google.com/group/rbw-owners-bunch?hl=en.
Re: [RBW] Re: Would it be against the law - a tigged Rivendell?
Grant wrote that his bikes were affordable by people with a job and bicycle priorities. His goal was never to build bikes at every price point. The moves from Waterford (and back again in a limited way) to Toyo to Maxway (I think that is his Taiwanese supplier. They certainly supply many big labels with pre designed and custom work) reflect a goal of providing the type of bike he loves at the same relative level of expense in a changing economy. I am reminded of old Fezziwig ( Christmas Carol) who laments the soulless mercenary changes to his world, but says he won;t change and adopt those ways, but if must needs be, he will die with that gentler way of doing business. Not that Grant wants to die out, but that he has been true to his thinking about bicycles, among other things. As others have pointed out, a repainted LHT or the new Taiwanese made Bruce Gordon can offer a welded cost savings bike that will satisfy many. I prefer to save my $ up, sell other stuff, and have lugged steel bikes. 3 of them are Rivendells, and the 4th is another Japanese lugged machine. I love them all. :) From: eflayer eddie.fla...@att.net Just because you and many others here don't see it, doesn't mean it can't or won't happen. Think of all the discussion we could have then. $700 tigged, $1000 Sam, $2000 Roadeo, $2500 custom. I'd buy it before Kogswell, Suly, SomaFab, Rawland, VO, etc. And I bet many others would too. So not about me, just an idea. . -- You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups RBW Owners Bunch group. To post to this group, send email to rbw-owners-bu...@googlegroups.com. To unsubscribe from this group, send email to rbw-owners-bunch+unsubscr...@googlegroups.com. For more options, visit this group at http://groups.google.com/group/rbw-owners-bunch?hl=en.
Re: [RBW] Re: Would it be against the law - a tigged Rivendell?
On Fri, 2009-12-11 at 08:02 -0800, CycloFiend wrote: I think the inherent flaw is the idea of a gorgeous tig-welded bicycle frame. Personally, I don't see anything wrong with that method of frame building, but they've never struck me as particularly good looking. I have a titanium Santana with welded joints that are almost indistinguishable from fillet brazing. Between those gorgeous welds and the high polish of the titanium, the bike looks better than chromed fillet brazed steel. But, that's definitely an exception, and I've never seen steel welding that looked like that. I've seen some welded steel bikes with beads that are so small and uniform as to be virtually invisible. The tubes simply look as though they've been placed together with no obvious visible reason for them to stay together. Whether a bike like that is gorgeous or not depends, I think, on the paint job. The welds do nothing to detract from it; nor do they dictate the design of the paint, the way lugs often do. A panel paint job can look quite nice on a welded bike, for example. Given the right accessories, so too can a single solid color; from a distance, with some colors, you couldn't notice lug detail or even the presence of lugs, so there's no difference between the visual impact of a lugged or a welded frame. I think many of the welded Tournesols look every bit as gorgeous as the lugged ones, for example. They tend to have fairly low key paint (black or taupe) and the fenders and other silver bits predominate. -- You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups RBW Owners Bunch group. To post to this group, send email to rbw-owners-bu...@googlegroups.com. To unsubscribe from this group, send email to rbw-owners-bunch+unsubscr...@googlegroups.com. For more options, visit this group at http://groups.google.com/group/rbw-owners-bunch?hl=en.
[RBW] Re: Would it be against the law - a tigged Rivendell?
Steve, well said. -- I am typing now in tiny tiny print...said very quietly in a whisper...Grant could do it best. On Dec 11, 8:29 am, Steve Palincsar palin...@his.com wrote: On Fri, 2009-12-11 at 08:02 -0800, CycloFiend wrote: I think the inherent flaw is the idea of a gorgeous tig-welded bicycle frame. Personally, I don't see anything wrong with that method of frame building, but they've never struck me as particularly good looking. I have a titanium Santana with welded joints that are almost indistinguishable from fillet brazing. Between those gorgeous welds and the high polish of the titanium, the bike looks better than chromed fillet brazed steel. But, that's definitely an exception, and I've never seen steel welding that looked like that. I've seen some welded steel bikes with beads that are so small and uniform as to be virtually invisible. The tubes simply look as though they've been placed together with no obvious visible reason for them to stay together. Whether a bike like that is gorgeous or not depends, I think, on the paint job. The welds do nothing to detract from it; nor do they dictate the design of the paint, the way lugs often do. A panel paint job can look quite nice on a welded bike, for example. Given the right accessories, so too can a single solid color; from a distance, with some colors, you couldn't notice lug detail or even the presence of lugs, so there's no difference between the visual impact of a lugged or a welded frame. I think many of the welded Tournesols look every bit as gorgeous as the lugged ones, for example. They tend to have fairly low key paint (black or taupe) and the fenders and other silver bits predominate. -- You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups RBW Owners Bunch group. To post to this group, send email to rbw-owners-bu...@googlegroups.com. To unsubscribe from this group, send email to rbw-owners-bunch+unsubscr...@googlegroups.com. For more options, visit this group at http://groups.google.com/group/rbw-owners-bunch?hl=en.
Re: [RBW] Re: Would it be against the law - a tigged Rivendell?
On Fri, 2009-12-11 at 08:35 -0800, eflayer wrote: Steve, well said. -- I am typing now in tiny tiny print...said very quietly in a whisper...Grant could do it best. In an equally small whisper, when it comes to TIG welded bikes and their design, based on the current track record I'll put my money on Steve Hampsten, unless we're talking heavy duty all-arounders and loaded touring bikes. But then, one of the wonderful things about these small makers is that they can have a distinct, even unique flavor. They don't have to be all things to all people -- any more than the makers of Laphroaig do. http://www.laphroaig.com/ -- You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups RBW Owners Bunch group. To post to this group, send email to rbw-owners-bu...@googlegroups.com. To unsubscribe from this group, send email to rbw-owners-bunch+unsubscr...@googlegroups.com. For more options, visit this group at http://groups.google.com/group/rbw-owners-bunch?hl=en.
Re: [RBW] Re: Would it be against the law - a tigged Rivendell?
on 12/11/09 8:29 AM, Steve Palincsar at palin...@his.com wrote: On Fri, 2009-12-11 at 08:02 -0800, CycloFiend wrote: I think the inherent flaw is the idea of a gorgeous tig-welded bicycle frame. Personally, I don't see anything wrong with that method of frame building, but they've never struck me as particularly good looking. I have a titanium Santana with welded joints that are almost indistinguishable from fillet brazing. Between those gorgeous welds and the high polish of the titanium, the bike looks better than chromed fillet brazed steel. But, that's definitely an exception, and I've never seen steel welding that looked like that. I've seen some welded steel bikes with beads that are so small and uniform as to be virtually invisible. The tubes simply look as though they've been placed together with no obvious visible reason for them to stay together. Whether a bike like that is gorgeous or not depends, I think, on the paint job. The welds do nothing to detract from it; nor do they dictate the design of the paint, the way lugs often do. A panel paint job can look quite nice on a welded bike, for example. Given the right accessories, so too can a single solid color; from a distance, with some colors, you couldn't notice lug detail or even the presence of lugs, so there's no difference between the visual impact of a lugged or a welded frame. I think many of the welded Tournesols look every bit as gorgeous as the lugged ones, for example. They tend to have fairly low key paint (black or taupe) and the fenders and other silver bits predominate. -- Jim Edgar cyclofi...@earthlink.net Cyclofiend Bicycle Photo Galleries - http://www.cyclofiend.com Current Classics - Cross Bikes Singlespeed - Working Bikes Send In Your Photos! - Here's how: http://www.cyclofiend.com/guidelines 'You both ride your bike?' He held his hands out and grabbed imaginary handlebars, grinning indulgently, eyeing Tom's helmet. Double disbeleif: not one, but two grown Americans riding bicycles. -- Neal Stephenson, Zodiac -- You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups RBW Owners Bunch group. To post to this group, send email to rbw-owners-bu...@googlegroups.com. To unsubscribe from this group, send email to rbw-owners-bunch+unsubscr...@googlegroups.com. For more options, visit this group at http://groups.google.com/group/rbw-owners-bunch?hl=en.
Re: [RBW] Re: Would it be against the law - a tigged Rivendell?
on 12/11/09 8:29 AM, Steve Palincsar at palin...@his.com wrote: On Fri, 2009-12-11 at 08:02 -0800, CycloFiend wrote: I think the inherent flaw is the idea of a gorgeous tig-welded bicycle frame. Personally, I don't see anything wrong with that method of frame building, but they've never struck me as particularly good looking. I have a titanium Santana with welded joints that are almost indistinguishable from fillet brazing. Between those gorgeous welds and the high polish of the titanium, the bike looks better than chromed fillet brazed steel. But, that's definitely an exception, and I've never seen steel welding that looked like that. The titanium Ibis frames were in that realm. I don't know if the different nature of ti welding processes lends itself to that, or the knowledge that there won't be paint covering the work. Or that they only let the uber-skilled TIG-welders play with the expensive tubesets. I've seen some welded steel bikes with beads that are so small and uniform as to be virtually invisible. The tubes simply look as though they've been placed together with no obvious visible reason for them to stay together. Whether a bike like that is gorgeous or not depends, I think, on the paint job. The welds do nothing to detract from it; nor do they dictate the design of the paint, the way lugs often do. A panel paint job can look quite nice on a welded bike, for example. Given the right accessories, so too can a single solid color; from a distance, with some colors, you couldn't notice lug detail or even the presence of lugs, so there's no difference between the visual impact of a lugged or a welded frame. I think many of the welded Tournesols look every bit as gorgeous as the lugged ones, for example. They tend to have fairly low key paint (black or taupe) and the fenders and other silver bits predominate. Those are all good counterpoint examples to my comment. For me, it's lugged or fillet-brazed, followed by TIG-welded. One of the things we all benefit from now is that the folks doing lugged work are all pretty accomplished. I do remember the last Interbike I attended some years ago, where a co-worker and I openly commented that if we had to look at another fat-tubed aluminum frame with toothpaste welds, we'd lose it. I'm not sure I ever recovered from that... ;^) - J -- Jim Edgar cyclofi...@earthlink.net Cyclofiend Bicycle Photo Galleries - http://www.cyclofiend.com Current Classics - Cross Bikes Singlespeed - Working Bikes Get your photos posted: http://www.cyclofiend.com/guidelines Maybe a bike, once discarded, pines away year after year for the first hand that steered it, and as it grows old it dreams, in its bike way, of the young roads. -- Robert McCammon, Boy's Life -- You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups RBW Owners Bunch group. To post to this group, send email to rbw-owners-bu...@googlegroups.com. To unsubscribe from this group, send email to rbw-owners-bunch+unsubscr...@googlegroups.com. For more options, visit this group at http://groups.google.com/group/rbw-owners-bunch?hl=en.
[RBW] Re: Would it be against the law - a tigged Rivendell?
Grant is capable of changing though, isn't he. I think you are all correct and he probably won't consider tig. You need to throw father time in the mix. Grant has gone on record saying Riv ends when he retires. Grant is in his mid-50s. It seems counterintuitive to work a complete reversal of company philosophy for its last 10 years of existance. Really my ideal was to get the lightness, that geo, quill, rear rack brazeons, canti/vbrakes, in a $700-$1000 price point. And I thought off shore and tigged was a good formula. I have yet to see a cogent example of what, other than putting the Rivendell name on the downtube, Grant could do in this market that many other companies are already doing quite well. On Dec 11, 10:02 am, eflayer eddie.fla...@att.net wrote: Grant is capable of changing though, isn't he. I think you are all correct and he probably won't consider tig. But as I recall he both never used to mention the weight of bikes, framesets and now look at how he is discussing/selling the lightness of Roadeo. I know the Roadeo fits the lugged mission, but here he is drifting toward the lightness factor. Really my ideal was to get the lightness, that geo, quill, rear rack brazeons, canti/vbrakes, in a $700-$1000 price point. And I thought off shore and tigged was a good formula. I can easily let it go as my Fuji is all of that, but lacks some pinache. On Dec 11, 7:52 am, Frederick, Steve frede...@mail.lib.msu.edu wrote: Bill Connell wrote, in part: ...I applaud Grant's stubborn aesthetic sense; he has a cohesive vision for the company, and that strong visual identity is a huge asset... Yeah, I think they'd stand to lose more than they gain if they wander too far from that vision. I recall in an early Reader, Grant talked about how you used to be able to tell a bike's brand by it's Lug design. That it was a signature of sorts. And how he hoped that in 100 years, someone could dig a Rivendell out of a trash heap, paint and decals gone, rusty and filthy and see the lugs and say wow, this is a Rivendell! That matters to him and I suspect to most of us, too. Steve Frederick, East Lansing, MI- Hide quoted text - - Show quoted text - -- You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups RBW Owners Bunch group. To post to this group, send email to rbw-owners-bu...@googlegroups.com. To unsubscribe from this group, send email to rbw-owners-bunch+unsubscr...@googlegroups.com. For more options, visit this group at http://groups.google.com/group/rbw-owners-bunch?hl=en.
[RBW] Re: Would it be against the law - a tigged Rivendell?
show me a fine tigged bike with Riv geo, Riv aesthetics, threaded fork, tallish headtube, lightweight tubing, cantis, and rack brazeons...in the $700 price range. oh yeah, i've come to appreciate a kickstand mounting plate too. On Dec 11, 9:06 am, JoelMatthews joelmatth...@mac.com wrote: Grant is capable of changing though, isn't he. I think you are all correct and he probably won't consider tig. You need to throw father time in the mix. Grant has gone on record saying Riv ends when he retires. Grant is in his mid-50s. It seems counterintuitive to work a complete reversal of company philosophy for its last 10 years of existance. Really my ideal was to get the lightness, that geo, quill, rear rack brazeons, canti/vbrakes, in a $700-$1000 price point. And I thought off shore and tigged was a good formula. I have yet to see a cogent example of what, other than putting the Rivendell name on the downtube, Grant could do in this market that many other companies are already doing quite well. On Dec 11, 10:02 am, eflayer eddie.fla...@att.net wrote: Grant is capable of changing though, isn't he. I think you are all correct and he probably won't consider tig. But as I recall he both never used to mention the weight of bikes, framesets and now look at how he is discussing/selling the lightness of Roadeo. I know the Roadeo fits the lugged mission, but here he is drifting toward the lightness factor. Really my ideal was to get the lightness, that geo, quill, rear rack brazeons, canti/vbrakes, in a $700-$1000 price point. And I thought off shore and tigged was a good formula. I can easily let it go as my Fuji is all of that, but lacks some pinache. On Dec 11, 7:52 am, Frederick, Steve frede...@mail.lib.msu.edu wrote: Bill Connell wrote, in part: ...I applaud Grant's stubborn aesthetic sense; he has a cohesive vision for the company, and that strong visual identity is a huge asset... Yeah, I think they'd stand to lose more than they gain if they wander too far from that vision. I recall in an early Reader, Grant talked about how you used to be able to tell a bike's brand by it's Lug design. That it was a signature of sorts. And how he hoped that in 100 years, someone could dig a Rivendell out of a trash heap, paint and decals gone, rusty and filthy and see the lugs and say wow, this is a Rivendell! That matters to him and I suspect to most of us, too. Steve Frederick, East Lansing, MI- Hide quoted text - - Show quoted text -- Hide quoted text - - Show quoted text - -- You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups RBW Owners Bunch group. To post to this group, send email to rbw-owners-bu...@googlegroups.com. To unsubscribe from this group, send email to rbw-owners-bunch+unsubscr...@googlegroups.com. For more options, visit this group at http://groups.google.com/group/rbw-owners-bunch?hl=en.
[RBW] Re: Would it be against the law - a tigged Rivendell?
this is it from Fuji. I just think Grant could do it better as a frameset with some Riv tweaks: http://www.fujibikes.com/LifeStyle/ClassicSeries/Touring.aspx On Dec 11, 9:13 am, eflayer eddie.fla...@att.net wrote: show me a fine tigged bike with Riv geo, Riv aesthetics, threaded fork, tallish headtube, lightweight tubing, cantis, and rack brazeons...in the $700 price range. oh yeah, i've come to appreciate a kickstand mounting plate too. On Dec 11, 9:06 am, JoelMatthews joelmatth...@mac.com wrote: Grant is capable of changing though, isn't he. I think you are all correct and he probably won't consider tig. You need to throw father time in the mix. Grant has gone on record saying Riv ends when he retires. Grant is in his mid-50s. It seems counterintuitive to work a complete reversal of company philosophy for its last 10 years of existance. Really my ideal was to get the lightness, that geo, quill, rear rack brazeons, canti/vbrakes, in a $700-$1000 price point. And I thought off shore and tigged was a good formula. I have yet to see a cogent example of what, other than putting the Rivendell name on the downtube, Grant could do in this market that many other companies are already doing quite well. On Dec 11, 10:02 am, eflayer eddie.fla...@att.net wrote: Grant is capable of changing though, isn't he. I think you are all correct and he probably won't consider tig. But as I recall he both never used to mention the weight of bikes, framesets and now look at how he is discussing/selling the lightness of Roadeo. I know the Roadeo fits the lugged mission, but here he is drifting toward the lightness factor. Really my ideal was to get the lightness, that geo, quill, rear rack brazeons, canti/vbrakes, in a $700-$1000 price point. And I thought off shore and tigged was a good formula. I can easily let it go as my Fuji is all of that, but lacks some pinache. On Dec 11, 7:52 am, Frederick, Steve frede...@mail.lib.msu.edu wrote: Bill Connell wrote, in part: ...I applaud Grant's stubborn aesthetic sense; he has a cohesive vision for the company, and that strong visual identity is a huge asset... Yeah, I think they'd stand to lose more than they gain if they wander too far from that vision. I recall in an early Reader, Grant talked about how you used to be able to tell a bike's brand by it's Lug design. That it was a signature of sorts. And how he hoped that in 100 years, someone could dig a Rivendell out of a trash heap, paint and decals gone, rusty and filthy and see the lugs and say wow, this is a Rivendell! That matters to him and I suspect to most of us, too. Steve Frederick, East Lansing, MI- Hide quoted text - - Show quoted text -- Hide quoted text - - Show quoted text -- Hide quoted text - - Show quoted text - -- You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups RBW Owners Bunch group. To post to this group, send email to rbw-owners-bu...@googlegroups.com. To unsubscribe from this group, send email to rbw-owners-bunch+unsubscr...@googlegroups.com. For more options, visit this group at http://groups.google.com/group/rbw-owners-bunch?hl=en.
Re: [RBW] Re: Would it be against the law - a tigged Rivendell?
On Fri, 2009-12-11 at 08:58 -0800, CycloFiend wrote: The titanium Ibis frames were in that realm. I don't know if the different nature of ti welding processes lends itself to that, or the knowledge that there won't be paint covering the work. Or that they only let the uber-skilled TIG-welders play with the expensive tubesets. I've seen some not so beautiful welded titanium, too. I'm certainly willing to believe that skill level plays a part in that; there's also a different technique that some don't believe in, multi-pass welding, I think it is, that was used to do the looks like fillet brazing welds. I happen to like that look. Those are all good counterpoint examples to my comment. For me, it's lugged or fillet-brazed, followed by TIG-welded. We don't disagree. One of the things we all benefit from now is that the folks doing lugged work are all pretty accomplished. Yes, many highly regarded production frames of the past are shockingly badly put together compared to the standard we expect today of lugged steel frames. The bar is set very high now. I do remember the last Interbike I attended some years ago, where a co-worker and I openly commented that if we had to look at another fat-tubed aluminum frame with toothpaste welds, we'd lose it. I'm not sure I ever recovered from that... ;^) Me, too. I can't bear the look of toothpaste welds. Butt ugly, stomach churing ugly, and no way to disguise it at all. -- You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups RBW Owners Bunch group. To post to this group, send email to rbw-owners-bu...@googlegroups.com. To unsubscribe from this group, send email to rbw-owners-bunch+unsubscr...@googlegroups.com. For more options, visit this group at http://groups.google.com/group/rbw-owners-bunch?hl=en.
[RBW] Re: Would it be against the law - a tigged Rivendell?
show me a fine tigged bike with Riv geo, Riv aesthetics, threaded fork, tallish headtube, lightweight tubing, cantis, and rack brazeons...in the $700 price range. oh yeah, i've come to appreciate a kickstand mounting plate too. Aesthetics is another way of saying putting its name on the bike. We have mentioned many fine Tig welded machines. Bruce Gordon's BLT has the features you list and on a practical basis is a every bit a worthy competitor to the Atlantis. You can get one fully built for around $1400. People buy the Atlantis over the BLT because the Atlantis is lugged and lovely. Others have mentioned the very worthy Tigged offerings from Velo- Orange, Gunnar, Kogswell. All have the features you note at the price you want. AntBikes and the Bruce Gordon Rock 'n Road are not so cheap as the Taiwan built Tigs, but they are very nice and distinctive. If Riv were to go the route you suggest, they would not even be making the best available product in the market segment. On Dec 11, 11:13 am, eflayer eddie.fla...@att.net wrote: show me a fine tigged bike with Riv geo, Riv aesthetics, threaded fork, tallish headtube, lightweight tubing, cantis, and rack brazeons...in the $700 price range. oh yeah, i've come to appreciate a kickstand mounting plate too. On Dec 11, 9:06 am, JoelMatthews joelmatth...@mac.com wrote: Grant is capable of changing though, isn't he. I think you are all correct and he probably won't consider tig. You need to throw father time in the mix. Grant has gone on record saying Riv ends when he retires. Grant is in his mid-50s. It seems counterintuitive to work a complete reversal of company philosophy for its last 10 years of existance. Really my ideal was to get the lightness, that geo, quill, rear rack brazeons, canti/vbrakes, in a $700-$1000 price point. And I thought off shore and tigged was a good formula. I have yet to see a cogent example of what, other than putting the Rivendell name on the downtube, Grant could do in this market that many other companies are already doing quite well. On Dec 11, 10:02 am, eflayer eddie.fla...@att.net wrote: Grant is capable of changing though, isn't he. I think you are all correct and he probably won't consider tig. But as I recall he both never used to mention the weight of bikes, framesets and now look at how he is discussing/selling the lightness of Roadeo. I know the Roadeo fits the lugged mission, but here he is drifting toward the lightness factor. Really my ideal was to get the lightness, that geo, quill, rear rack brazeons, canti/vbrakes, in a $700-$1000 price point. And I thought off shore and tigged was a good formula. I can easily let it go as my Fuji is all of that, but lacks some pinache. On Dec 11, 7:52 am, Frederick, Steve frede...@mail.lib.msu.edu wrote: Bill Connell wrote, in part: ...I applaud Grant's stubborn aesthetic sense; he has a cohesive vision for the company, and that strong visual identity is a huge asset... Yeah, I think they'd stand to lose more than they gain if they wander too far from that vision. I recall in an early Reader, Grant talked about how you used to be able to tell a bike's brand by it's Lug design. That it was a signature of sorts. And how he hoped that in 100 years, someone could dig a Rivendell out of a trash heap, paint and decals gone, rusty and filthy and see the lugs and say wow, this is a Rivendell! That matters to him and I suspect to most of us, too. Steve Frederick, East Lansing, MI- Hide quoted text - - Show quoted text -- Hide quoted text - - Show quoted text -- Hide quoted text - - Show quoted text - -- You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups RBW Owners Bunch group. To post to this group, send email to rbw-owners-bu...@googlegroups.com. To unsubscribe from this group, send email to rbw-owners-bunch+unsubscr...@googlegroups.com. For more options, visit this group at http://groups.google.com/group/rbw-owners-bunch?hl=en.
[RBW] Re: Would it be against the law - a tigged Rivendell?
Is RBW considered an Upscale brand? Do a certain number of people buy a RBW bicycle because it is widely perceived as expensive/exotic/ exclusive? Would a low-cost TIG'ed RBW frameset/bicycle sell well enough in a competitive marketplace to justify alienation of the past/ present/future customers who want to buy into a brand with an upscale reputation? Is offering a TIG'ed frame really an easy-to-sell, high- profit slam-dunk, or is it highly risky and expensive? We also have to be realistic (and perhaps more informed) about Surly, which is a brand that seems to engender some sour grapes and undue harsh criticism from some in the RBW set. Contrary to some of the undercurrent of this discussion, Surly frames and bicycles are EXCELLENT. They are smartly designed, sturdy, real steel, cleanly welded and finished, and have unbeatable QA/QC and customer service. Most of the people who work at Surly are personal friends, acquaintances, and former coworkers of mine, and I can attest that they are good people and as devoted to real-world cycling as cyclists get. The parent corporation QBP is a nationwide/industry leader in environmental/sustainability efforts, sponsors a number of worthy charitable endeavors, and is, in general, a wonderful local and global corporate citizen (in many ways, like RBW, but much bigger). In short, Surly does what they do very well, and they are fine people who deserve whatever success they have. In TIG'ed bicycles, Surly is hard to beat, and it's hard to paint them as bad guys. Of course, there are ways to make a Surly look more genteel, if that's the goal. http://hiawathacyclery.blogspot.com/2009/10/another-way-to-do-long-haul-trucker.html On Dec 11, 9:32 am, Steve Palincsar palin...@his.com wrote: On Fri, 2009-12-11 at 07:14 -0800, eflayer wrote: I am both impressed and dismayed with the degree of commitment to a single point of view. Whatever works works. Thinking there was a time when Grant thought he'd never leave Japan for Taiwan...and that time came. Granted, he is still making gorgeous lugged frames, now with cheaper labor. If Riv does make most of the profits on parts, then why not sell another Riv branded entry price gorgeous tigged frameset so more customers buy more parts? I see mostly upside for everyone and no downside. Except if it divides attention and leads to a loss of direction. But I'm betting a sharp marketeer such as is Grant Peterson could find a way to sell this kool aid to all of the naysayer in this group. It's Grant, not us, who have defined Rivendell's core value as lugged steel. He's said before, it's what defines Rivendell. If that's true, what you're asking is for him to give up his core value, lose his central focus, dilute his brand identity -- and all so you could have a cheaper offering? Race to the bottom was never a Rivendell value of any kind, why should it be one now? I think you're overlooking the obvious answer. Get a Surly LHT, get it powdercoated in Atlantis green, put on a set of Resurrectio decals and be happy. It's exactly the bike you want, and a price that Rivendell could never match because of economies of scale. -- You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups RBW Owners Bunch group. To post to this group, send email to rbw-owners-bu...@googlegroups.com. To unsubscribe from this group, send email to rbw-owners-bunch+unsubscr...@googlegroups.com. For more options, visit this group at http://groups.google.com/group/rbw-owners-bunch?hl=en.
[RBW] Re: Would it be against the law - a tigged Rivendell?
Is RBW considered an Upscale brand? Do a certain number of people buy a RBW bicycle because it is widely perceived as expensive/exotic/ exclusive? Would a low-cost TIG'ed RBW frameset/bicycle sell well enough in a competitive marketplace to justify alienation of the past/ present/future customers who want to buy into a brand with an upscale reputation? Is offering a TIG'ed frame really an easy-to-sell, high- profit slam-dunk, or is it highly risky and expensive? Very good point. Riv definitely has a cachet which could be put at risk if it went low end. I have had people suggest my very lovel custom build (which costs thousands more than a Riv) is almost as nice as a Riv! Fortunately, I do not have a whole lot of ego invested in my custom and accept as well meaning, if ill-informed compliment. Contrary to some of the undercurrent of this discussion, Surly frames and bicycles are EXCELLENT. Another great point. I have philosophical issues with Surly's marketing - the whole we are up against the man sort of vibe. But they are not the only large company that uses the ploy. It works, so it is hard to knock too much. And their bikes are very well made. If Riv went Tig it would come down to whether Riv's aw shucks marketing tack of Surly's in your face marketing tack is the better. On Dec 11, 11:42 am, Jim Thill - Hiawatha Cyclery thill@gmail.com wrote: Is RBW considered an Upscale brand? Do a certain number of people buy a RBW bicycle because it is widely perceived as expensive/exotic/ exclusive? Would a low-cost TIG'ed RBW frameset/bicycle sell well enough in a competitive marketplace to justify alienation of the past/ present/future customers who want to buy into a brand with an upscale reputation? Is offering a TIG'ed frame really an easy-to-sell, high- profit slam-dunk, or is it highly risky and expensive? We also have to be realistic (and perhaps more informed) about Surly, which is a brand that seems to engender some sour grapes and undue harsh criticism from some in the RBW set. Contrary to some of the undercurrent of this discussion, Surly frames and bicycles are EXCELLENT. They are smartly designed, sturdy, real steel, cleanly welded and finished, and have unbeatable QA/QC and customer service. Most of the people who work at Surly are personal friends, acquaintances, and former coworkers of mine, and I can attest that they are good people and as devoted to real-world cycling as cyclists get. The parent corporation QBP is a nationwide/industry leader in environmental/sustainability efforts, sponsors a number of worthy charitable endeavors, and is, in general, a wonderful local and global corporate citizen (in many ways, like RBW, but much bigger). In short, Surly does what they do very well, and they are fine people who deserve whatever success they have. In TIG'ed bicycles, Surly is hard to beat, and it's hard to paint them as bad guys. Of course, there are ways to make a Surly look more genteel, if that's the goal.http://hiawathacyclery.blogspot.com/2009/10/another-way-to-do-long-ha... On Dec 11, 9:32 am, Steve Palincsar palin...@his.com wrote: On Fri, 2009-12-11 at 07:14 -0800, eflayer wrote: I am both impressed and dismayed with the degree of commitment to a single point of view. Whatever works works. Thinking there was a time when Grant thought he'd never leave Japan for Taiwan...and that time came. Granted, he is still making gorgeous lugged frames, now with cheaper labor. If Riv does make most of the profits on parts, then why not sell another Riv branded entry price gorgeous tigged frameset so more customers buy more parts? I see mostly upside for everyone and no downside. Except if it divides attention and leads to a loss of direction. But I'm betting a sharp marketeer such as is Grant Peterson could find a way to sell this kool aid to all of the naysayer in this group. It's Grant, not us, who have defined Rivendell's core value as lugged steel. He's said before, it's what defines Rivendell. If that's true, what you're asking is for him to give up his core value, lose his central focus, dilute his brand identity -- and all so you could have a cheaper offering? Race to the bottom was never a Rivendell value of any kind, why should it be one now? I think you're overlooking the obvious answer. Get a Surly LHT, get it powdercoated in Atlantis green, put on a set of Resurrectio decals and be happy. It's exactly the bike you want, and a price that Rivendell could never match because of economies of scale.- Hide quoted text - - Show quoted text - -- You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups RBW Owners Bunch group. To post to this group, send email to rbw-owners-bu...@googlegroups.com. To unsubscribe from this group, send email to rbw-owners-bunch+unsubscr...@googlegroups.com. For more options, visit this group at
[RBW] Re: Would it be against the law - a tigged Rivendell?
just joking a bit...put if you put any more spacers under that threadless headset you could climb up on those bars and then jump on the roof of that house. to each their own on aesthetics. If that were really an issue, Surly could easily adopt one of the several threadless stems custom builders make that appear to be a quill stem. Or, just as easily make a threaded fork design as do many company's which order bikes from the same factory the Surly - and your theoretical Tigged Rivs - come from. On Dec 11, 12:00 pm, eflayer eddie.fla...@att.net wrote: just joking a bit...put if you put any more spacers under that threadless headset you could climb up on those bars and then jump on the roof of that house. to each their own on aesthetics. On Dec 11, 9:42 am, Jim Thill - Hiawatha Cyclery thill@gmail.com wrote: Is RBW considered an Upscale brand? Do a certain number of people buy a RBW bicycle because it is widely perceived as expensive/exotic/ exclusive? Would a low-cost TIG'ed RBW frameset/bicycle sell well enough in a competitive marketplace to justify alienation of the past/ present/future customers who want to buy into a brand with an upscale reputation? Is offering a TIG'ed frame really an easy-to-sell, high- profit slam-dunk, or is it highly risky and expensive? We also have to be realistic (and perhaps more informed) about Surly, which is a brand that seems to engender some sour grapes and undue harsh criticism from some in the RBW set. Contrary to some of the undercurrent of this discussion, Surly frames and bicycles are EXCELLENT. They are smartly designed, sturdy, real steel, cleanly welded and finished, and have unbeatable QA/QC and customer service. Most of the people who work at Surly are personal friends, acquaintances, and former coworkers of mine, and I can attest that they are good people and as devoted to real-world cycling as cyclists get. The parent corporation QBP is a nationwide/industry leader in environmental/sustainability efforts, sponsors a number of worthy charitable endeavors, and is, in general, a wonderful local and global corporate citizen (in many ways, like RBW, but much bigger). In short, Surly does what they do very well, and they are fine people who deserve whatever success they have. In TIG'ed bicycles, Surly is hard to beat, and it's hard to paint them as bad guys. Of course, there are ways to make a Surly look more genteel, if that's the goal.http://hiawathacyclery.blogspot.com/2009/10/another-way-to-do-long-ha... On Dec 11, 9:32 am, Steve Palincsar palin...@his.com wrote: On Fri, 2009-12-11 at 07:14 -0800, eflayer wrote: I am both impressed and dismayed with the degree of commitment to a single point of view. Whatever works works. Thinking there was a time when Grant thought he'd never leave Japan for Taiwan...and that time came. Granted, he is still making gorgeous lugged frames, now with cheaper labor. If Riv does make most of the profits on parts, then why not sell another Riv branded entry price gorgeous tigged frameset so more customers buy more parts? I see mostly upside for everyone and no downside. Except if it divides attention and leads to a loss of direction. But I'm betting a sharp marketeer such as is Grant Peterson could find a way to sell this kool aid to all of the naysayer in this group. It's Grant, not us, who have defined Rivendell's core value as lugged steel. He's said before, it's what defines Rivendell. If that's true, what you're asking is for him to give up his core value, lose his central focus, dilute his brand identity -- and all so you could have a cheaper offering? Race to the bottom was never a Rivendell value of any kind, why should it be one now? I think you're overlooking the obvious answer. Get a Surly LHT, get it powdercoated in Atlantis green, put on a set of Resurrectio decals and be happy. It's exactly the bike you want, and a price that Rivendell could never match because of economies of scale.- Hide quoted text - - Show quoted text -- Hide quoted text - - Show quoted text - -- You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups RBW Owners Bunch group. To post to this group, send email to rbw-owners-bu...@googlegroups.com. To unsubscribe from this group, send email to rbw-owners-bunch+unsubscr...@googlegroups.com. For more options, visit this group at http://groups.google.com/group/rbw-owners-bunch?hl=en.
[RBW] Re: Would it be against the law - a tigged Rivendell?
nobody is doing it. that is my whole point...whether or not you think Riv shouldnobody is. On Dec 11, 10:04 am, JoelMatthews joelmatth...@mac.com wrote: just joking a bit...put if you put any more spacers under that threadless headset you could climb up on those bars and then jump on the roof of that house. to each their own on aesthetics. If that were really an issue, Surly could easily adopt one of the several threadless stems custom builders make that appear to be a quill stem. Or, just as easily make a threaded fork design as do many company's which order bikes from the same factory the Surly - and your theoretical Tigged Rivs - come from. On Dec 11, 12:00 pm, eflayer eddie.fla...@att.net wrote: just joking a bit...put if you put any more spacers under that threadless headset you could climb up on those bars and then jump on the roof of that house. to each their own on aesthetics. On Dec 11, 9:42 am, Jim Thill - Hiawatha Cyclery thill@gmail.com wrote: Is RBW considered an Upscale brand? Do a certain number of people buy a RBW bicycle because it is widely perceived as expensive/exotic/ exclusive? Would a low-cost TIG'ed RBW frameset/bicycle sell well enough in a competitive marketplace to justify alienation of the past/ present/future customers who want to buy into a brand with an upscale reputation? Is offering a TIG'ed frame really an easy-to-sell, high- profit slam-dunk, or is it highly risky and expensive? We also have to be realistic (and perhaps more informed) about Surly, which is a brand that seems to engender some sour grapes and undue harsh criticism from some in the RBW set. Contrary to some of the undercurrent of this discussion, Surly frames and bicycles are EXCELLENT. They are smartly designed, sturdy, real steel, cleanly welded and finished, and have unbeatable QA/QC and customer service. Most of the people who work at Surly are personal friends, acquaintances, and former coworkers of mine, and I can attest that they are good people and as devoted to real-world cycling as cyclists get. The parent corporation QBP is a nationwide/industry leader in environmental/sustainability efforts, sponsors a number of worthy charitable endeavors, and is, in general, a wonderful local and global corporate citizen (in many ways, like RBW, but much bigger). In short, Surly does what they do very well, and they are fine people who deserve whatever success they have. In TIG'ed bicycles, Surly is hard to beat, and it's hard to paint them as bad guys. Of course, there are ways to make a Surly look more genteel, if that's the goal.http://hiawathacyclery.blogspot.com/2009/10/another-way-to-do-long-ha... On Dec 11, 9:32 am, Steve Palincsar palin...@his.com wrote: On Fri, 2009-12-11 at 07:14 -0800, eflayer wrote: I am both impressed and dismayed with the degree of commitment to a single point of view. Whatever works works. Thinking there was a time when Grant thought he'd never leave Japan for Taiwan...and that time came. Granted, he is still making gorgeous lugged frames, now with cheaper labor. If Riv does make most of the profits on parts, then why not sell another Riv branded entry price gorgeous tigged frameset so more customers buy more parts? I see mostly upside for everyone and no downside. Except if it divides attention and leads to a loss of direction. But I'm betting a sharp marketeer such as is Grant Peterson could find a way to sell this kool aid to all of the naysayer in this group. It's Grant, not us, who have defined Rivendell's core value as lugged steel. He's said before, it's what defines Rivendell. If that's true, what you're asking is for him to give up his core value, lose his central focus, dilute his brand identity -- and all so you could have a cheaper offering? Race to the bottom was never a Rivendell value of any kind, why should it be one now? I think you're overlooking the obvious answer. Get a Surly LHT, get it powdercoated in Atlantis green, put on a set of Resurrectio decals and be happy. It's exactly the bike you want, and a price that Rivendell could never match because of economies of scale.- Hide quoted text - - Show quoted text -- Hide quoted text - - Show quoted text -- Hide quoted text - - Show quoted text - -- You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups RBW Owners Bunch group. To post to this group, send email to rbw-owners-bu...@googlegroups.com. To unsubscribe from this group, send email to rbw-owners-bunch+unsubscr...@googlegroups.com. For more options, visit this group at http://groups.google.com/group/rbw-owners-bunch?hl=en.
[RBW] Re: Would it be against the law - a tigged Rivendell?
Threaded stems and headsets are pretty much obsolete on new-production bikes, and the number of threaded stem/headset options is small and getting smaller. There are a few holdouts, like Riv and some custom shops, but I think even they see the writing on the wall (Legolas was threadless, and Roadeo apparently has a threadless option). As individuals, we can deal with obsolete or obscure parts with ebay and other small sources. But a bike manufacturer, who needs to order hundreds or thousands of headsets per year has to consider the risks of not having enough headsets for this year, and for service in years to come. Shimano stopped making headsets. What if Nitto stops making quill stems? At some point, are the desirable qualities of quill stems worth all this effort and hassle and uncertainty? Personally, I think all the new Riv models should have 1-1/8 threadless steerers as standard equipment. Maybe press-in headtube reducers and 1 threaded forks could be an option. But the threadless idea is an improvement in many ways for manufacturers, bike mechanics/ shops, and end-users. Aesthetics are not carved in stone. I am 32 years old, work on bikes for a living, and have no notions of romance, nostalgia, or inherent aesthetics of quill stems. I think some threadless stems are ugly, but there are some that are really nice. I think my Goodrich tourer looks great with a Nitto threadless stem (slightly upsloping TT and tall headtube keeps spacer needs to a minimum). The reason I ordered it threadless was that I found heavy front loads caused a 1 steerer and stem to flex when I hit the brakes, which was unnerving, to say the least. http://www.flickr.com/photos/twowheelflight/3601726415/ On Dec 11, 12:14 pm, eflayer eddie.fla...@att.net wrote: nobody is doing it. that is my whole point...whether or not you think Riv shouldnobody is. On Dec 11, 10:04 am, JoelMatthews joelmatth...@mac.com wrote: just joking a bit...put if you put any more spacers under that threadless headset you could climb up on those bars and then jump on the roof of that house. to each their own on aesthetics. If that were really an issue, Surly could easily adopt one of the several threadless stems custom builders make that appear to be a quill stem. Or, just as easily make a threaded fork design as do many company's which order bikes from the same factory the Surly - and your theoretical Tigged Rivs - come from. On Dec 11, 12:00 pm, eflayer eddie.fla...@att.net wrote: just joking a bit...put if you put any more spacers under that threadless headset you could climb up on those bars and then jump on the roof of that house. to each their own on aesthetics. On Dec 11, 9:42 am, Jim Thill - Hiawatha Cyclery thill@gmail.com wrote: Is RBW considered an Upscale brand? Do a certain number of people buy a RBW bicycle because it is widely perceived as expensive/exotic/ exclusive? Would a low-cost TIG'ed RBW frameset/bicycle sell well enough in a competitive marketplace to justify alienation of the past/ present/future customers who want to buy into a brand with an upscale reputation? Is offering a TIG'ed frame really an easy-to-sell, high- profit slam-dunk, or is it highly risky and expensive? We also have to be realistic (and perhaps more informed) about Surly, which is a brand that seems to engender some sour grapes and undue harsh criticism from some in the RBW set. Contrary to some of the undercurrent of this discussion, Surly frames and bicycles are EXCELLENT. They are smartly designed, sturdy, real steel, cleanly welded and finished, and have unbeatable QA/QC and customer service. Most of the people who work at Surly are personal friends, acquaintances, and former coworkers of mine, and I can attest that they are good people and as devoted to real-world cycling as cyclists get. The parent corporation QBP is a nationwide/industry leader in environmental/sustainability efforts, sponsors a number of worthy charitable endeavors, and is, in general, a wonderful local and global corporate citizen (in many ways, like RBW, but much bigger). In short, Surly does what they do very well, and they are fine people who deserve whatever success they have. In TIG'ed bicycles, Surly is hard to beat, and it's hard to paint them as bad guys. Of course, there are ways to make a Surly look more genteel, if that's the goal.http://hiawathacyclery.blogspot.com/2009/10/another-way-to-do-long-ha... On Dec 11, 9:32 am, Steve Palincsar palin...@his.com wrote: On Fri, 2009-12-11 at 07:14 -0800, eflayer wrote: I am both impressed and dismayed with the degree of commitment to a single point of view. Whatever works works. Thinking there was a time when Grant thought he'd never leave Japan for Taiwan...and that time came. Granted, he is still making gorgeous lugged frames, now
[RBW] Re: Would it be against the law - a tigged Rivendell?
nobody is doing it. that is my whole point...whether or not you think Riv shouldnobody is. The Bruce Gordon BLT is a loaded tourer, takes a one inch threaded stem (and Bruce will sell you a beautiful custom made matching quil to boot) has every sort of braze on you could hope for, rides like a dream, takes every tire an Atlantis takes with fenders. The other companies mentioned above are likewise very similar in many respects to Riv bikes. The difference is the lugs and the paint. Take away the lugs, all you have is paint. That is your whole point. Paint. On Dec 11, 12:14 pm, eflayer eddie.fla...@att.net wrote: nobody is doing it. that is my whole point...whether or not you think Riv shouldnobody is. On Dec 11, 10:04 am, JoelMatthews joelmatth...@mac.com wrote: just joking a bit...put if you put any more spacers under that threadless headset you could climb up on those bars and then jump on the roof of that house. to each their own on aesthetics. If that were really an issue, Surly could easily adopt one of the several threadless stems custom builders make that appear to be a quill stem. Or, just as easily make a threaded fork design as do many company's which order bikes from the same factory the Surly - and your theoretical Tigged Rivs - come from. On Dec 11, 12:00 pm, eflayer eddie.fla...@att.net wrote: just joking a bit...put if you put any more spacers under that threadless headset you could climb up on those bars and then jump on the roof of that house. to each their own on aesthetics. On Dec 11, 9:42 am, Jim Thill - Hiawatha Cyclery thill@gmail.com wrote: Is RBW considered an Upscale brand? Do a certain number of people buy a RBW bicycle because it is widely perceived as expensive/exotic/ exclusive? Would a low-cost TIG'ed RBW frameset/bicycle sell well enough in a competitive marketplace to justify alienation of the past/ present/future customers who want to buy into a brand with an upscale reputation? Is offering a TIG'ed frame really an easy-to-sell, high- profit slam-dunk, or is it highly risky and expensive? We also have to be realistic (and perhaps more informed) about Surly, which is a brand that seems to engender some sour grapes and undue harsh criticism from some in the RBW set. Contrary to some of the undercurrent of this discussion, Surly frames and bicycles are EXCELLENT. They are smartly designed, sturdy, real steel, cleanly welded and finished, and have unbeatable QA/QC and customer service. Most of the people who work at Surly are personal friends, acquaintances, and former coworkers of mine, and I can attest that they are good people and as devoted to real-world cycling as cyclists get. The parent corporation QBP is a nationwide/industry leader in environmental/sustainability efforts, sponsors a number of worthy charitable endeavors, and is, in general, a wonderful local and global corporate citizen (in many ways, like RBW, but much bigger). In short, Surly does what they do very well, and they are fine people who deserve whatever success they have. In TIG'ed bicycles, Surly is hard to beat, and it's hard to paint them as bad guys. Of course, there are ways to make a Surly look more genteel, if that's the goal.http://hiawathacyclery.blogspot.com/2009/10/another-way-to-do-long-ha... On Dec 11, 9:32 am, Steve Palincsar palin...@his.com wrote: On Fri, 2009-12-11 at 07:14 -0800, eflayer wrote: I am both impressed and dismayed with the degree of commitment to a single point of view. Whatever works works. Thinking there was a time when Grant thought he'd never leave Japan for Taiwan...and that time came. Granted, he is still making gorgeous lugged frames, now with cheaper labor. If Riv does make most of the profits on parts, then why not sell another Riv branded entry price gorgeous tigged frameset so more customers buy more parts? I see mostly upside for everyone and no downside. Except if it divides attention and leads to a loss of direction. But I'm betting a sharp marketeer such as is Grant Peterson could find a way to sell this kool aid to all of the naysayer in this group. It's Grant, not us, who have defined Rivendell's core value as lugged steel. He's said before, it's what defines Rivendell. If that's true, what you're asking is for him to give up his core value, lose his central focus, dilute his brand identity -- and all so you could have a cheaper offering? Race to the bottom was never a Rivendell value of any kind, why should it be one now? I think you're overlooking the obvious answer. Get a Surly LHT, get it powdercoated in Atlantis green, put on a set of Resurrectio decals and be happy. It's exactly the bike you want, and a price
Re: [RBW] Re: Would it be against the law - a tigged Rivendell?
On Fri, 2009-12-11 at 11:03 -0800, Jim Thill - Hiawatha Cyclery wrote: Threaded stems and headsets are pretty much obsolete on new-production bikes, and the number of threaded stem/headset options is small and getting smaller. There are a few holdouts, like Riv and some custom shops, but I think even they see the writing on the wall (Legolas was threadless, and Roadeo apparently has a threadless option). More like catering to the tastes of the intended audience than seeing the handwriting on the wall. If it were the latter, wouldn't you expect the frames designed since the Legolas (such as the Hillborne, Foy, etc) to similarly acknowledge the presence of said handwriting? As individuals, we can deal with obsolete or obscure parts with ebay and other small sources. But a bike manufacturer, who needs to order hundreds or thousands of headsets per year has to consider the risks of not having enough headsets for this year, and for service in years to come. It appears that Velo Orange, far smaller than most bike manufacturers, had no difficulty sourcing high quality threaded headsets for the VO brand. I think fears of the availability of threaded headsets are greatly exaggerated. -- You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups RBW Owners Bunch group. To post to this group, send email to rbw-owners-bu...@googlegroups.com. To unsubscribe from this group, send email to rbw-owners-bunch+unsubscr...@googlegroups.com. For more options, visit this group at http://groups.google.com/group/rbw-owners-bunch?hl=en.
Re: [RBW] Re: Would it be against the law - a tigged Rivendell?
There are still millions upon millions of bikes out there with threaded headsets, many of them owned by people of limited means who will need to fix them rather than buy a new bike. Ditto for bikes with freewheels. That's why it's still possible to buy freewheels in this age of cassettes … and why it will be possible for some time to find traditional threaded headsets. They just may not be Record or DuraAce quality. On Dec 11, 2009, at 11:19 AM, Steve Palincsar palin...@his.com wrote: On Fri, 2009-12-11 at 11:03 -0800, Jim Thill - Hiawatha Cyclery wrote: Threaded stems and headsets are pretty much obsolete on new- production bikes, and the number of threaded stem/headset options is small and getting smaller. There are a few holdouts, like Riv and some custom shops, but I think even they see the writing on the wall (Legolas was threadless, and Roadeo apparently has a threadless option). More like catering to the tastes of the intended audience than seeing the handwriting on the wall. If it were the latter, wouldn't you expect the frames designed since the Legolas (such as the Hillborne, Foy, etc) to similarly acknowledge the presence of said handwriting? As individuals, we can deal with obsolete or obscure parts with ebay and other small sources. But a bike manufacturer, who needs to order hundreds or thousands of headsets per year has to consider the risks of not having enough headsets for this year, and for service in years to come. It appears that Velo Orange, far smaller than most bike manufacturers, had no difficulty sourcing high quality threaded headsets for the VO brand. I think fears of the availability of threaded headsets are greatly exaggerated. -- You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups RBW Owners Bunch group. To post to this group, send email to rbw-owners- bu...@googlegroups.com. To unsubscribe from this group, send email to rbw-owners-bunch+unsubscr...@googlegroups.com . For more options, visit this group at http://groups.google.com/group/rbw-owners-bunch?hl=en . -- You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups RBW Owners Bunch group. To post to this group, send email to rbw-owners-bu...@googlegroups.com. To unsubscribe from this group, send email to rbw-owners-bunch+unsubscr...@googlegroups.com. For more options, visit this group at http://groups.google.com/group/rbw-owners-bunch?hl=en.
[RBW] Re: Would it be against the law - a tigged Rivendell?
regardless of steer-tube diameter, I like having a quill setup so you can raise and lower the bars really quickly and easily, and with 'infinite' adjustment. So I hope threaded/quill isn't going anywhere. On Dec 11, 2:19 pm, Steve Palincsar palin...@his.com wrote: On Fri, 2009-12-11 at 11:03 -0800, Jim Thill - Hiawatha Cyclery wrote: Threaded stems and headsets are pretty much obsolete on new-production bikes, and the number of threaded stem/headset options is small and getting smaller. There are a few holdouts, like Riv and some custom shops, but I think even they see the writing on the wall (Legolas was threadless, and Roadeo apparently has a threadless option). More like catering to the tastes of the intended audience than seeing the handwriting on the wall. If it were the latter, wouldn't you expect the frames designed since the Legolas (such as the Hillborne, Foy, etc) to similarly acknowledge the presence of said handwriting? As individuals, we can deal with obsolete or obscure parts with ebay and other small sources. But a bike manufacturer, who needs to order hundreds or thousands of headsets per year has to consider the risks of not having enough headsets for this year, and for service in years to come. It appears that Velo Orange, far smaller than most bike manufacturers, had no difficulty sourcing high quality threaded headsets for the VO brand. I think fears of the availability of threaded headsets are greatly exaggerated. -- You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups RBW Owners Bunch group. To post to this group, send email to rbw-owners-bu...@googlegroups.com. To unsubscribe from this group, send email to rbw-owners-bunch+unsubscr...@googlegroups.com. For more options, visit this group at http://groups.google.com/group/rbw-owners-bunch?hl=en.
[RBW] Re: Would it be against the law - a tigged Rivendell?
Well, having a special run of parts made is more difficult than using something that is already available with probably 100 variants from which to choose. And if the modern, widely available version is demonstrably an improvement over the antiquated version that requires a special production run, then the question becomes: why bother? On Dec 11, 1:19 pm, Steve Palincsar palin...@his.com wrote: On Fri, 2009-12-11 at 11:03 -0800, Jim Thill - Hiawatha Cyclery wrote: Threaded stems and headsets are pretty much obsolete on new-production bikes, and the number of threaded stem/headset options is small and getting smaller. There are a few holdouts, like Riv and some custom shops, but I think even they see the writing on the wall (Legolas was threadless, and Roadeo apparently has a threadless option). More like catering to the tastes of the intended audience than seeing the handwriting on the wall. If it were the latter, wouldn't you expect the frames designed since the Legolas (such as the Hillborne, Foy, etc) to similarly acknowledge the presence of said handwriting? As individuals, we can deal with obsolete or obscure parts with ebay and other small sources. But a bike manufacturer, who needs to order hundreds or thousands of headsets per year has to consider the risks of not having enough headsets for this year, and for service in years to come. It appears that Velo Orange, far smaller than most bike manufacturers, had no difficulty sourcing high quality threaded headsets for the VO brand. I think fears of the availability of threaded headsets are greatly exaggerated. -- You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups RBW Owners Bunch group. To post to this group, send email to rbw-owners-bu...@googlegroups.com. To unsubscribe from this group, send email to rbw-owners-bunch+unsubscr...@googlegroups.com. For more options, visit this group at http://groups.google.com/group/rbw-owners-bunch?hl=en.
[RBW] Re: Would it be against the law - a tigged Rivendell?
Well, having a special run of parts made is more difficult than using something that is already available with probably 100 variants from which to choose. And if the modern, widely available version is demonstrably an improvement over the antiquated version that requires a special production run, then the question becomes: why bother? On Dec 11, 1:19 pm, Steve Palincsar palin...@his.com wrote: On Fri, 2009-12-11 at 11:03 -0800, Jim Thill - Hiawatha Cyclery wrote: Threaded stems and headsets are pretty much obsolete on new-production bikes, and the number of threaded stem/headset options is small and getting smaller. There are a few holdouts, like Riv and some custom shops, but I think even they see the writing on the wall (Legolas was threadless, and Roadeo apparently has a threadless option). More like catering to the tastes of the intended audience than seeing the handwriting on the wall. If it were the latter, wouldn't you expect the frames designed since the Legolas (such as the Hillborne, Foy, etc) to similarly acknowledge the presence of said handwriting? As individuals, we can deal with obsolete or obscure parts with ebay and other small sources. But a bike manufacturer, who needs to order hundreds or thousands of headsets per year has to consider the risks of not having enough headsets for this year, and for service in years to come. It appears that Velo Orange, far smaller than most bike manufacturers, had no difficulty sourcing high quality threaded headsets for the VO brand. I think fears of the availability of threaded headsets are greatly exaggerated. -- You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups RBW Owners Bunch group. To post to this group, send email to rbw-owners-bu...@googlegroups.com. To unsubscribe from this group, send email to rbw-owners-bunch+unsubscr...@googlegroups.com. For more options, visit this group at http://groups.google.com/group/rbw-owners-bunch?hl=en.
[RBW] Re: Would it be against the law - a tigged Rivendell?
Headtubes on BLT and BLTaiwans are short... But it does look as if little old BG is sourcing his own upjutting Salsa (old) quill stems. Bet the BLTaiwans weigh a ton. Don't want a tank. Want an all around 700c. Let's call it a tigged Roadeo with Vbrakes, powder and a headbadge. On Dec 11, 11:28 am, Eric Norris campyonly...@me.com wrote: There are still millions upon millions of bikes out there with threaded headsets, many of them owned by people of limited means who will need to fix them rather than buy a new bike. Ditto for bikes with freewheels. That's why it's still possible to buy freewheels in this age of cassettes c and why it will be possible for some time to find traditional threaded headsets. They just may not be Record or DuraAce quality. On Dec 11, 2009, at 11:19 AM, Steve Palincsar palin...@his.com wrote: On Fri, 2009-12-11 at 11:03 -0800, Jim Thill - Hiawatha Cyclery wrote: Threaded stems and headsets are pretty much obsolete on new- production bikes, and the number of threaded stem/headset options is small and getting smaller. There are a few holdouts, like Riv and some custom shops, but I think even they see the writing on the wall (Legolas was threadless, and Roadeo apparently has a threadless option). More like catering to the tastes of the intended audience than seeing the handwriting on the wall. If it were the latter, wouldn't you expect the frames designed since the Legolas (such as the Hillborne, Foy, etc) to similarly acknowledge the presence of said handwriting? As individuals, we can deal with obsolete or obscure parts with ebay and other small sources. But a bike manufacturer, who needs to order hundreds or thousands of headsets per year has to consider the risks of not having enough headsets for this year, and for service in years to come. It appears that Velo Orange, far smaller than most bike manufacturers, had no difficulty sourcing high quality threaded headsets for the VO brand. I think fears of the availability of threaded headsets are greatly exaggerated. -- You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups RBW Owners Bunch group. To post to this group, send email to rbw-owners- bu...@googlegroups.com. To unsubscribe from this group, send email to rbw-owners-bunch+unsubscr...@googlegroups.com . For more options, visit this group athttp://groups.google.com/group/rbw-owners-bunch?hl=en .- Hide quoted text - - Show quoted text - -- You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups RBW Owners Bunch group. To post to this group, send email to rbw-owners-bu...@googlegroups.com. To unsubscribe from this group, send email to rbw-owners-bunch+unsubscr...@googlegroups.com. For more options, visit this group at http://groups.google.com/group/rbw-owners-bunch?hl=en.
[RBW] Re: Would it be against the law - a tigged Rivendell?
ps, street bike with rear rack brazeons so I can carry my lunch in stuff in a trunk bag, and put on bigger tires if I want to...but lightweight and lively...as you would say. On Dec 11, 11:38 am, Steve Palincsar palin...@his.com wrote: On Fri, 2009-12-11 at 11:35 -0800, eflayer wrote: Headtubes on BLT and BLTaiwans are short... But it does look as if little old BG is sourcing his own upjutting Salsa (old) quill stems. Bet the BLTaiwans weigh a ton. Don't want a tank. Want an all around 700c. Let's call it a tigged Roadeo with Vbrakes, powder and a headbadge. That's very far from the BLTs. They're much more like Atlantis: sturdy loaded touring bikes that can be setup and used like MTBs. I will take issue with your description, though: a Roadeo is nothing like an all-arounder. -- You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups RBW Owners Bunch group. To post to this group, send email to rbw-owners-bu...@googlegroups.com. To unsubscribe from this group, send email to rbw-owners-bunch+unsubscr...@googlegroups.com. For more options, visit this group at http://groups.google.com/group/rbw-owners-bunch?hl=en.
Re: [RBW] Re: Would it be against the law - a tigged Rivendell?
On Fri, Dec 11, 2009 at 1:35 PM, eflayer eddie.fla...@att.net wrote: Headtubes on BLT and BLTaiwans are short... But it does look as if little old BG is sourcing his own upjutting Salsa (old) quill stems. Bet the BLTaiwans weigh a ton. Don't want a tank. Want an all around 700c. Let's call it a tigged Roadeo with Vbrakes, powder and a headbadge. You've seen Kogswells, right? http://kogswell.com/sitePRODUCTS.php I haven't been following Matthew much lately, i assume he's still selling them. Nicely made bikes with everything you mentioned other than a fancy headbadge. -- Bill Connell St. Paul, MN -- You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups RBW Owners Bunch group. To post to this group, send email to rbw-owners-bu...@googlegroups.com. To unsubscribe from this group, send email to rbw-owners-bunch+unsubscr...@googlegroups.com. For more options, visit this group at http://groups.google.com/group/rbw-owners-bunch?hl=en.
RE: [RBW] Re: Would it be against the law - a tigged Rivendell?
-Original Message- From: rbw-owners-bunch@googlegroups.com [mailto:rbw-owners-bu...@googlegroups.com] On Behalf Of eflayer Sent: Friday, December 11, 2009 11:36 AM To: RBW Owners Bunch Subject: [RBW] Re: Would it be against the law - a tigged Rivendell? Headtubes on BLT and BLTaiwans are short... They are standard length - not extra long for Aheadsets that require 3 of spacers. I use a Upsloping - 15 degree rise, Quill (1) stem so the bars are quite high - in addition the top tubes are upsloping. Bet the BLTaiwans weigh a ton. Don't want a tank. Want an all around 700c. How do you know that they weigh a Ton??? Let me know what size frame you ride and I will go weigh one and see if it is a Tank But they are in stock and on sale until December 24th. Regards, Bruce Gordon www.bgcycles.com brucegordoncycles.blogspot.com -- You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups RBW Owners Bunch group. To post to this group, send email to rbw-owners-bu...@googlegroups.com. To unsubscribe from this group, send email to rbw-owners-bunch+unsubscr...@googlegroups.com. For more options, visit this group at http://groups.google.com/group/rbw-owners-bunch?hl=en.
Re: [RBW] Re: Would it be against the law - a tigged Rivendell?
On Fri, Dec 11, 2009 at 2:44 PM, Bill Connell bconn...@gmail.com wrote: On Fri, Dec 11, 2009 at 1:35 PM, eflayer eddie.fla...@att.net wrote: Headtubes on BLT and BLTaiwans are short... But it does look as if little old BG is sourcing his own upjutting Salsa (old) quill stems. Bet the BLTaiwans weigh a ton. Don't want a tank. Want an all around 700c. Let's call it a tigged Roadeo with Vbrakes, powder and a headbadge. You've seen Kogswells, right? http://kogswell.com/sitePRODUCTS.php I haven't been following Matthew much lately, i assume he's still selling them. Nicely made bikes with everything you mentioned other than a fancy headbadge. Actually: http://www.longleafbicycles.com/2009/11/650b-frameset-news-part-1-of-2/ Anthony at longleaf bikes has taken over the P/R from Matthew. -sv -- You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups RBW Owners Bunch group. To post to this group, send email to rbw-owners-bu...@googlegroups.com. To unsubscribe from this group, send email to rbw-owners-bunch+unsubscr...@googlegroups.com. For more options, visit this group at http://groups.google.com/group/rbw-owners-bunch?hl=en.
Re: [RBW] Re: Would it be against the law - a tigged Rivendell?
On Fri, 2009-12-11 at 11:40 -0800, eflayer wrote: ps, street bike with rear rack brazeons so I can carry my lunch in stuff in a trunk bag, and put on bigger tires if I want to...but lightweight and lively...as you would say. I think you already own it, your Fuji touring. -- You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups RBW Owners Bunch group. To post to this group, send email to rbw-owners-bu...@googlegroups.com. To unsubscribe from this group, send email to rbw-owners-bunch+unsubscr...@googlegroups.com. For more options, visit this group at http://groups.google.com/group/rbw-owners-bunch?hl=en.
[RBW] Re: Would it be against the law - a tigged Rivendell?
Headtubes on BLT and BLTaiwans are short... Geometry is close to the Hilborne. But it does look as if little old BG is sourcing his own upjutting Salsa (old) quill stems. Bruce has been making quill stems long before there was a Salsa. His is a heavy duty design. But guess what, delicate Nitto's fit in the head tube as well. Bet the BLTaiwans weigh a ton. Don't want a tank. Want an all around 700c. I expect you would lose that bet. BG says the BLT uses same tubing as the Rock n' Road. Given its formidable strength, the R'n'R is a surprisingly light bike. I am sure the BLT would be equally adroit as a day to day 700 as a tourer. Let's call it a tigged Roadeo with Vbrakes, powder and a headbadge. See the Riv Catalogue link John at Riv just posted. Grant describes the Roadeo as being way out there from a Riv perspective. (The catalogue also gives prominent props to lugs by the way) Yet you think dropping the lugs and changing the geometry would be in his comfort range? On Dec 11, 1:35 pm, eflayer eddie.fla...@att.net wrote: Headtubes on BLT and BLTaiwans are short... But it does look as if little old BG is sourcing his own upjutting Salsa (old) quill stems. Bet the BLTaiwans weigh a ton. Don't want a tank. Want an all around 700c. Let's call it a tigged Roadeo with Vbrakes, powder and a headbadge. On Dec 11, 11:28 am, Eric Norris campyonly...@me.com wrote: There are still millions upon millions of bikes out there with threaded headsets, many of them owned by people of limited means who will need to fix them rather than buy a new bike. Ditto for bikes with freewheels. That's why it's still possible to buy freewheels in this age of cassettes c and why it will be possible for some time to find traditional threaded headsets. They just may not be Record or DuraAce quality. On Dec 11, 2009, at 11:19 AM, Steve Palincsar palin...@his.com wrote: On Fri, 2009-12-11 at 11:03 -0800, Jim Thill - Hiawatha Cyclery wrote: Threaded stems and headsets are pretty much obsolete on new- production bikes, and the number of threaded stem/headset options is small and getting smaller. There are a few holdouts, like Riv and some custom shops, but I think even they see the writing on the wall (Legolas was threadless, and Roadeo apparently has a threadless option). More like catering to the tastes of the intended audience than seeing the handwriting on the wall. If it were the latter, wouldn't you expect the frames designed since the Legolas (such as the Hillborne, Foy, etc) to similarly acknowledge the presence of said handwriting? As individuals, we can deal with obsolete or obscure parts with ebay and other small sources. But a bike manufacturer, who needs to order hundreds or thousands of headsets per year has to consider the risks of not having enough headsets for this year, and for service in years to come. It appears that Velo Orange, far smaller than most bike manufacturers, had no difficulty sourcing high quality threaded headsets for the VO brand. I think fears of the availability of threaded headsets are greatly exaggerated. -- You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups RBW Owners Bunch group. To post to this group, send email to rbw-owners- bu...@googlegroups.com. To unsubscribe from this group, send email to rbw-owners-bunch+unsubscr...@googlegroups.com . For more options, visit this group athttp://groups.google.com/group/rbw-owners-bunch?hl=en .- Hide quoted text - - Show quoted text -- Hide quoted text - - Show quoted text - -- You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups RBW Owners Bunch group. To post to this group, send email to rbw-owners-bu...@googlegroups.com. To unsubscribe from this group, send email to rbw-owners-bunch+unsubscr...@googlegroups.com. For more options, visit this group at http://groups.google.com/group/rbw-owners-bunch?hl=en.
[RBW] Re: Would it be against the law - a tigged Rivendell?
If the man is the idea that carbon fiber is the only real material that serious cyclists consider-- that everything else is a compromise, then i think being anti-the man is a plus. That is how I interpret Surly's ads-- we make good, smart bikes that arent what the Bicylcling's Buyers Guide tell you to buy. And i think that on a smaller scale (and toned down a bit) Riv has the same message. As for a TIG'd Riv-- if it could be US made-- then maybe, if not, I really hope it never happens. That market is well covered, now more than ever. Cheers! cm -- You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups RBW Owners Bunch group. To post to this group, send email to rbw-owners-bu...@googlegroups.com. To unsubscribe from this group, send email to rbw-owners-bunch+unsubscr...@googlegroups.com. For more options, visit this group at http://groups.google.com/group/rbw-owners-bunch?hl=en.
[RBW] Re: Would it be against the law - a tigged Rivendell?
JIm: I'm not normally a tweed sort of guy but that Nigel Smith on the LHT absolutely belongs on that bike. What a nice, tidy touch. I've never seen an LHT set up other than as a tourer. The Atlantis is highly adaptable (you were up to what, version 8.0?) so the LHT should be equally so. RE: LHT as a touring bike. Out in the real world where touring bikes get junked up with racks and loaded down with all manner of gear, the LHT is arguably the single most common bike. You'll see all manner of adapted MTBs, old racing bikes cobbled into tourers, 80s vintage Japanese tourers, etc. But for people who've decided to pop for a dedicated touring bike, the LHT does the job. A touring bike gets pretty rough treatment, getting partially dis-assembled, packed, shipped, leaned against trees, dropped, tossed into the back of trucks, and generally abused. I know, my Atlantis has more scratches and gouges than I can count (OK, the fork stuff was self-inflicted by my need for more fittings). Several of my touring buds have LHTs and none of us can see any difference in ride, handling, etc. between the two. Functionally, no difference. Financially, big difference. You pays your money takes your choice. I'm just thankful I got my Atlantis back when the whole bike cost what the frame does now. Yikes! dougP On Dec 11, 12:57 pm, cm chrispmur...@hotmail.com wrote: If the man is the idea that carbon fiber is the only real material that serious cyclists consider-- that everything else is a compromise, then i think being anti-the man is a plus. That is how I interpret Surly's ads-- we make good, smart bikes that arent what the Bicylcling's Buyers Guide tell you to buy. And i think that on a smaller scale (and toned down a bit) Riv has the same message. As for a TIG'd Riv-- if it could be US made-- then maybe, if not, I really hope it never happens. That market is well covered, now more than ever. Cheers! cm -- You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups RBW Owners Bunch group. To post to this group, send email to rbw-owners-bu...@googlegroups.com. To unsubscribe from this group, send email to rbw-owners-bunch+unsubscr...@googlegroups.com. For more options, visit this group at http://groups.google.com/group/rbw-owners-bunch?hl=en.
[RBW] Re: Would it be against the law - a tigged Rivendell?
if not TIG'd rivs, how about some lugged carbon fiber? http://www.ifbikes.com/OurBikes/Road/XS/ http://www.ifbikes.com/OurBikes/Road/Corvid/ Grant could do the Garth Brooks/Chris Gaines thing! no, wait that didn't really work either ;) safe riding this weekend everyone! -- You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups RBW Owners Bunch group. To post to this group, send email to rbw-owners-bu...@googlegroups.com. To unsubscribe from this group, send email to rbw-owners-bunch+unsubscr...@googlegroups.com. For more options, visit this group at http://groups.google.com/group/rbw-owners-bunch?hl=en.
[RBW] Re: Would it be against the law - a tigged Rivendell?
There is no place I found in the catalogue Grant says anything about the Roadeo being out there from a Riv perspective. Me thinks I missed it or you be making up stuff. On Dec 11, 12:11 pm, JoelMatthews joelmatth...@mac.com wrote: Headtubes on BLT and BLTaiwans are short... Geometry is close to the Hilborne. But it does look as if little old BG is sourcing his own upjutting Salsa (old) quill stems. Bruce has been making quill stems long before there was a Salsa. His is a heavy duty design. But guess what, delicate Nitto's fit in the head tube as well. Bet the BLTaiwans weigh a ton. Don't want a tank. Want an all around 700c. I expect you would lose that bet. BG says the BLT uses same tubing as the Rock n' Road. Given its formidable strength, the R'n'R is a surprisingly light bike. I am sure the BLT would be equally adroit as a day to day 700 as a tourer. Let's call it a tigged Roadeo with Vbrakes, powder and a headbadge. See the Riv Catalogue link John at Riv just posted. Grant describes the Roadeo as being way out there from a Riv perspective. (The catalogue also gives prominent props to lugs by the way) Yet you think dropping the lugs and changing the geometry would be in his comfort range? On Dec 11, 1:35 pm, eflayer eddie.fla...@att.net wrote: Headtubes on BLT and BLTaiwans are short... But it does look as if little old BG is sourcing his own upjutting Salsa (old) quill stems. Bet the BLTaiwans weigh a ton. Don't want a tank. Want an all around 700c. Let's call it a tigged Roadeo with Vbrakes, powder and a headbadge. On Dec 11, 11:28 am, Eric Norris campyonly...@me.com wrote: There are still millions upon millions of bikes out there with threaded headsets, many of them owned by people of limited means who will need to fix them rather than buy a new bike. Ditto for bikes with freewheels. That's why it's still possible to buy freewheels in this age of cassettes c and why it will be possible for some time to find traditional threaded headsets. They just may not be Record or DuraAce quality. On Dec 11, 2009, at 11:19 AM, Steve Palincsar palin...@his.com wrote: On Fri, 2009-12-11 at 11:03 -0800, Jim Thill - Hiawatha Cyclery wrote: Threaded stems and headsets are pretty much obsolete on new- production bikes, and the number of threaded stem/headset options is small and getting smaller. There are a few holdouts, like Riv and some custom shops, but I think even they see the writing on the wall (Legolas was threadless, and Roadeo apparently has a threadless option). More like catering to the tastes of the intended audience than seeing the handwriting on the wall. If it were the latter, wouldn't you expect the frames designed since the Legolas (such as the Hillborne, Foy, etc) to similarly acknowledge the presence of said handwriting? As individuals, we can deal with obsolete or obscure parts with ebay and other small sources. But a bike manufacturer, who needs to order hundreds or thousands of headsets per year has to consider the risks of not having enough headsets for this year, and for service in years to come. It appears that Velo Orange, far smaller than most bike manufacturers, had no difficulty sourcing high quality threaded headsets for the VO brand. I think fears of the availability of threaded headsets are greatly exaggerated. -- You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups RBW Owners Bunch group. To post to this group, send email to rbw-owners- bu...@googlegroups.com. To unsubscribe from this group, send email to rbw-owners-bunch+unsubscr...@googlegroups.com . For more options, visit this group athttp://groups.google.com/group/rbw-owners-bunch?hl=en .- Hide quoted text - - Show quoted text -- Hide quoted text - - Show quoted text -- Hide quoted text - - Show quoted text - -- You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups RBW Owners Bunch group. To post to this group, send email to rbw-owners-bu...@googlegroups.com. To unsubscribe from this group, send email to rbw-owners-bunch+unsubscr...@googlegroups.com. For more options, visit this group at http://groups.google.com/group/rbw-owners-bunch?hl=en.
[RBW] Re: Would it be against the law - a tigged Rivendell?
think about staying in business and making money. sell more framesets, sell more parts, sell more complete bikes. surlys are sorta ugly. surly have ugly decals and are heavy, and don't think there are quill stemmed ones either. think about a bike that looks as great as an orange or green Sam, that rides great, looks great, and cost 30% less. On Dec 10, 1:40 pm, Seth Vidal skvi...@gmail.com wrote: On Thu, Dec 10, 2009 at 4:38 PM, eflayer eddie.fla...@att.net wrote: I know it goes against the grain of everything we stand for here. Actually, what do we stand for here? But don't you think Riv/Grant could do a really really good job on a tigged frameset. No need to sully the Riv name or brand, but maybe a Toyota type thing...and the lugged Rivs could be the Lexuses. There are currently a lot of entries in the tigged Riv-like bike set. But somehow I think Grant's attention to color, geometry, style could equal the best of the lot. Just thing a beautifully tigged Riv bike at maybe $650? He could call it the Tiggua brand. I thought the name for that brand was surly. Seriously though, what would be the point? Rivendell made it's name as lugged, steel. Changing that now doesn't do anything than dilute the brand as far as I can tell. -sv -- You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups RBW Owners Bunch group. To post to this group, send email to rbw-owners-bu...@googlegroups.com. To unsubscribe from this group, send email to rbw-owners-bunch+unsubscr...@googlegroups.com. For more options, visit this group at http://groups.google.com/group/rbw-owners-bunch?hl=en.
[RBW] Re: Would it be against the law - a tigged Rivendell?
I think a TIG'd Riv would be great-- and was mentioned a few times in the early days (if i remember correctly). To me, it is more about how the bike fits and rides then how it looks-- though how it looks is important too. If it isnt a direction they are interested in going, I can respect that. But it would be nice. How about a Musa TIG'd line? and I like Tiggua for a name too. Cheers! cm -- You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups RBW Owners Bunch group. To post to this group, send email to rbw-owners-bu...@googlegroups.com. To unsubscribe from this group, send email to rbw-owners-bunch+unsubscr...@googlegroups.com. For more options, visit this group at http://groups.google.com/group/rbw-owners-bunch?hl=en.
[RBW] Re: Would it be against the law - a tigged Rivendell?
i'm all for supporting usa manufacturing, but the Sams look so great. i think Grant could do something along the Roadeo line with lightweight tigged tubes done in Taiwan, tall headtubes, threaded forks, and a new line of steel open face quills to fill the void Salsa left in the market and add some variety to the limited flat angle Nittos. I love Nittos, but sometimes I'd rather have rise at the extension rather than at the quill height. i even think well chosen powder coated colors with stickers on top could do the trick. On Dec 10, 2:05 pm, cm chrispmur...@hotmail.com wrote: I think a TIG'd Riv would be great-- and was mentioned a few times in the early days (if i remember correctly). To me, it is more about how the bike fits and rides then how it looks-- though how it looks is important too. If it isnt a direction they are interested in going, I can respect that. But it would be nice. How about a Musa TIG'd line? and I like Tiggua for a name too. Cheers! cm -- You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups RBW Owners Bunch group. To post to this group, send email to rbw-owners-bu...@googlegroups.com. To unsubscribe from this group, send email to rbw-owners-bunch+unsubscr...@googlegroups.com. For more options, visit this group at http://groups.google.com/group/rbw-owners-bunch?hl=en.
Re: [RBW] Re: Would it be against the law - a tigged Rivendell?
I guess my thought on this is why would RBW want to drop into the Surly/Soma price arena? GP has said many times he thinks Surly makes a great product. As far as a TIG'ed Roadeo equivalent goes, I think it would cannibalize Roadeo sales to some degree since it could be lighter and that is where the Roadeo is supposed to be competing. Difference in opinion on the reason to consider TIG, I guess... Regards, Doug On Thu, Dec 10, 2009 at 3:13 PM, eflayer eddie.fla...@att.net wrote: i'm all for supporting usa manufacturing, but the Sams look so great. i think Grant could do something along the Roadeo line with lightweight tigged tubes done in Taiwan, tall headtubes, threaded forks, and a new line of steel open face quills to fill the void Salsa left in the market and add some variety to the limited flat angle Nittos. I love Nittos, but sometimes I'd rather have rise at the extension rather than at the quill height. i even think well chosen powder coated colors with stickers on top could do the trick. On Dec 10, 2:05 pm, cm chrispmur...@hotmail.com wrote: I think a TIG'd Riv would be great-- and was mentioned a few times in the early days (if i remember correctly). To me, it is more about how the bike fits and rides then how it looks-- though how it looks is important too. If it isnt a direction they are interested in going, I can respect that. But it would be nice. How about a Musa TIG'd line? and I like Tiggua for a name too. Cheers! cm -- You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups RBW Owners Bunch group. To post to this group, send email to rbw-owners-bu...@googlegroups.com. To unsubscribe from this group, send email to rbw-owners-bunch+unsubscr...@googlegroups.com. For more options, visit this group at http://groups.google.com/group/rbw-owners-bunch?hl=en.
Re: [RBW] Re: Would it be against the law - a tigged Rivendell?
On Thu, 2009-12-10 at 14:13 -0800, eflayer wrote: i'm all for supporting usa manufacturing, but the Sams look so great. i think Grant could do something along the Roadeo line with lightweight tigged tubes done in Taiwan, tall headtubes, threaded forks, and a new line of steel open face quills to fill the void Salsa left in the market and add some variety to the limited flat angle Nittos. I love Nittos, but sometimes I'd rather have rise at the extension rather than at the quill height. I believe Grant is firmly of the opinion that it is lugged or nothing, as far as he and Rivendell are concerned. I think you should write him direct with your suggestions, as he is the sole arbiter of the Rivendell style. -- You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups RBW Owners Bunch group. To post to this group, send email to rbw-owners-bu...@googlegroups.com. To unsubscribe from this group, send email to rbw-owners-bunch+unsubscr...@googlegroups.com. For more options, visit this group at http://groups.google.com/group/rbw-owners-bunch?hl=en.
[RBW] Re: Would it be against the law - a tigged Rivendell?
i did write him on this exact topic a few days ago. just said it was an idea i had and no need, on his part, to respond. then i thought i'd put it out to the universe to see what others thought. On Dec 10, 2:23 pm, Steve Palincsar palin...@his.com wrote: On Thu, 2009-12-10 at 14:13 -0800, eflayer wrote: i'm all for supporting usa manufacturing, but the Sams look so great. i think Grant could do something along the Roadeo line with lightweight tigged tubes done in Taiwan, tall headtubes, threaded forks, and a new line of steel open face quills to fill the void Salsa left in the market and add some variety to the limited flat angle Nittos. I love Nittos, but sometimes I'd rather have rise at the extension rather than at the quill height. I believe Grant is firmly of the opinion that it is lugged or nothing, as far as he and Rivendell are concerned. I think you should write him direct with your suggestions, as he is the sole arbiter of the Rivendell style. -- You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups RBW Owners Bunch group. To post to this group, send email to rbw-owners-bu...@googlegroups.com. To unsubscribe from this group, send email to rbw-owners-bunch+unsubscr...@googlegroups.com. For more options, visit this group at http://groups.google.com/group/rbw-owners-bunch?hl=en.
[RBW] Re: Would it be against the law - a tigged Rivendell?
Doesn't Rivendell sell T-shirts that say Always steel, always lugged? :D I think there are already plenty of TIG constructed bikes that pretty well match Rivendell's design philosophy. For example, Surly LHT, Box Dog Pelican (that was reviewed in the latest Bicycle Quarterly) and Bruce Gordon bikes. On Dec 10, 5:59 pm, eflayer eddie.fla...@att.net wrote: i did write him on this exact topic a few days ago. just said it was an idea i had and no need, on his part, to respond. then i thought i'd put it out to the universe to see what others thought. On Dec 10, 2:23 pm, Steve Palincsar palin...@his.com wrote: On Thu, 2009-12-10 at 14:13 -0800, eflayer wrote: i'm all for supporting usa manufacturing, but the Sams look so great. i think Grant could do something along the Roadeo line with lightweight tigged tubes done in Taiwan, tall headtubes, threaded forks, and a new line of steel open face quills to fill the void Salsa left in the market and add some variety to the limited flat angle Nittos. I love Nittos, but sometimes I'd rather have rise at the extension rather than at the quill height. I believe Grant is firmly of the opinion that it is lugged or nothing, as far as he and Rivendell are concerned. I think you should write him direct with your suggestions, as he is the sole arbiter of the Rivendell style. -- You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups RBW Owners Bunch group. To post to this group, send email to rbw-owners-bu...@googlegroups.com. To unsubscribe from this group, send email to rbw-owners-bunch+unsubscr...@googlegroups.com. For more options, visit this group at http://groups.google.com/group/rbw-owners-bunch?hl=en.
[RBW] Re: Would it be against the law - a tigged Rivendell?
Well done USA made Tiggs are not necessarily cheap. Mike Flanigan (AntBike) and Bruce Gordon make excellent Tigged bikes. They are not as pricey as lugged, but more than $650.00. Nor do I see what Grant can do that Surly, Kogswell, VO, etc., etc. are not already, to squeeze a lighter, nicer looking Tigg bike from Taiwan. Well, that is other than putting the Rivendell name on it. I think Grant has too much invested in the Rivendell name to want to use it to sell a somewhat more expensive Surly. On Dec 10, 4:59 pm, eflayer eddie.fla...@att.net wrote: i did write him on this exact topic a few days ago. just said it was an idea i had and no need, on his part, to respond. then i thought i'd put it out to the universe to see what others thought. On Dec 10, 2:23 pm, Steve Palincsar palin...@his.com wrote: On Thu, 2009-12-10 at 14:13 -0800, eflayer wrote: i'm all for supporting usa manufacturing, but the Sams look so great. i think Grant could do something along the Roadeo line with lightweight tigged tubes done in Taiwan, tall headtubes, threaded forks, and a new line of steel open face quills to fill the void Salsa left in the market and add some variety to the limited flat angle Nittos. I love Nittos, but sometimes I'd rather have rise at the extension rather than at the quill height. I believe Grant is firmly of the opinion that it is lugged or nothing, as far as he and Rivendell are concerned. I think you should write him direct with your suggestions, as he is the sole arbiter of the Rivendell style.- Hide quoted text - - Show quoted text - -- You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups RBW Owners Bunch group. To post to this group, send email to rbw-owners-bu...@googlegroups.com. To unsubscribe from this group, send email to rbw-owners-bunch+unsubscr...@googlegroups.com. For more options, visit this group at http://groups.google.com/group/rbw-owners-bunch?hl=en.
[RBW] Re: Would it be against the law - a tigged Rivendell?
Tee shirts come in batches and it would be easy to update them to: Always steel, mostly tigged, sometimes lugged...and now look at all the money we have in the bank? On Dec 10, 3:14 pm, newenglandbike matthiasbe...@gmail.com wrote: Doesn't Rivendell sell T-shirts that say Always steel, always lugged? :D I think there are already plenty of TIG constructed bikes that pretty well match Rivendell's design philosophy. For example, Surly LHT, Box Dog Pelican (that was reviewed in the latest Bicycle Quarterly) and Bruce Gordon bikes. On Dec 10, 5:59 pm, eflayer eddie.fla...@att.net wrote: i did write him on this exact topic a few days ago. just said it was an idea i had and no need, on his part, to respond. then i thought i'd put it out to the universe to see what others thought. On Dec 10, 2:23 pm, Steve Palincsar palin...@his.com wrote: On Thu, 2009-12-10 at 14:13 -0800, eflayer wrote: i'm all for supporting usa manufacturing, but the Sams look so great. i think Grant could do something along the Roadeo line with lightweight tigged tubes done in Taiwan, tall headtubes, threaded forks, and a new line of steel open face quills to fill the void Salsa left in the market and add some variety to the limited flat angle Nittos. I love Nittos, but sometimes I'd rather have rise at the extension rather than at the quill height. I believe Grant is firmly of the opinion that it is lugged or nothing, as far as he and Rivendell are concerned. I think you should write him direct with your suggestions, as he is the sole arbiter of the Rivendell style.- Hide quoted text - - Show quoted text - -- You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups RBW Owners Bunch group. To post to this group, send email to rbw-owners-bu...@googlegroups.com. To unsubscribe from this group, send email to rbw-owners-bunch+unsubscr...@googlegroups.com. For more options, visit this group at http://groups.google.com/group/rbw-owners-bunch?hl=en.
[RBW] Re: Would it be against the law - a tigged Rivendell?
Try VeloOrange for well designed and inexpensive tig welded bikes. -- You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups RBW Owners Bunch group. To post to this group, send email to rbw-owners-bu...@googlegroups.com. To unsubscribe from this group, send email to rbw-owners-bunch+unsubscr...@googlegroups.com. For more options, visit this group at http://groups.google.com/group/rbw-owners-bunch?hl=en.
[RBW] Re: Would it be against the law - a tigged Rivendell?
Tiggua...Tagua. Both nuts! What next? Plaid Pleather? On Dec 10, 6:34 pm, Mike mjawn...@gmail.com wrote: Try VeloOrange for well designed and inexpensive tig welded bikes. -- You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups RBW Owners Bunch group. To post to this group, send email to rbw-owners-bu...@googlegroups.com. To unsubscribe from this group, send email to rbw-owners-bunch+unsubscr...@googlegroups.com. For more options, visit this group at http://groups.google.com/group/rbw-owners-bunch?hl=en.
[RBW] Re: Would it be against the law - a tigged Rivendell?
Well, I have a 1996 All Rounder (lugged), a ~1995 Ritchey (fillet brazed) and a 1998 Gunnar Crosshairs (TIG). Two of the three were made in Waterford WI. The Gunnar rides great. Handles superbly, light, stiff enough (Reynolds 853 in those days). But it doesn't inspire. It's the utility bike, the one I put in the trunk when I take a trip somewhere, the one I ride in iffy weather but it's only the bike of choice when I intend to ride a lot off road. I don't go down to the basement and say I want to ride the Gunnar. I go downstairs and say I want to ride the Riv or I want to ride the Ritchey. Neither the Riv nor the Ritchey have a superior ride to the Gunnar. They're not exactly the same but they're all very good. The Riv is the most comfortable bike I have ever owned and is the most adaptable bike I can imagine- it lives up to its name. It's been a mountain bike, a commuter bike, a racing club training ride bike, a randonneuse and it's done them all with aplomb. The Ritchey is pretty comfortable and is the best-handling race bike I ever had, better than any fancy Reparto Corsa Italian job or anything specialized for racing. I think that bike around corners, I don't steer it. The Gunnar sort of splits the difference between them and handles particularly well off-road. But the Gunnar doesn't inspire and I think that is purely about aesthetics. The undeniable craftsmanship of the Gunnar frame is very evident. But TIG welds just don't move me the way a finely shaped and filed lug does or the graceful curve of a fillet. Call me shallow and vain, it'd be true enough, but the aesthetic of TIG doesn't do it for me. I don't think it's a worse way to stick tubes together from a mechanical perspective- TIG frames have proven to be effective and durable. I don't look down on TIG frames- they just don't make my heart sing. Obviously there are many people who feel the opposite and more power to 'em. I'm delighted that choices remain in the world of cycling and we can all pick up something that stirs us and makes us chafe to get out for a ride. As for a TIG'd Rivendell... it would ride like a Riv. It would be functionally the same as a Riv. But it wouldn't be a Riv IMHO. A Riv to me is not defined by frame geometry or shellac or twine. It's defined by the overall aesthetic as expressed through the details- the curving shoreline, the cutouts, the bar height relative to the saddle, the fat tires, etc. etc. YMMV. -- You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups RBW Owners Bunch group. To post to this group, send email to rbw-owners-bu...@googlegroups.com. To unsubscribe from this group, send email to rbw-owners-bunch+unsubscr...@googlegroups.com. For more options, visit this group at http://groups.google.com/group/rbw-owners-bunch?hl=en.
[RBW] Re: Would it be against the law - a tigged Rivendell?
I feel the same as you about the ultimate aesthetic. What got me thinking on this topic is my new tigged 2009 Fuji Touring. It rides as good as, if not better than, any other steel bike I have ever owned. Tigged in China. Not so pretty of paint or quality of welds. But there is absolutely something about the frameset and the ride that is blowing my mind. I was riding it the other day and thought, wow if only Grant would do one of these with same lively ride, but with the touches only he could do for the aesthetics...even to a tigged bike. I think the Fuji must be using some lighter springier tubes or something. Think the Roadeo fits into the lightweight flyer class. That is my preferred style of riding. Nothing more than an occasional small trunk bag of weight. So I still want a lightweight Riv, tigged, tall headtube, threaded fork, vbrakes, and 700C. Grant could do it best. Gunnar Sport is close, but no quills, brazeons?, no vbrakes...but good geo. On Dec 10, 4:16 pm, Tim McNamara tim...@bitstream.net wrote: Well, I have a 1996 All Rounder (lugged), a ~1995 Ritchey (fillet brazed) and a 1998 Gunnar Crosshairs (TIG). Two of the three were made in Waterford WI. The Gunnar rides great. Handles superbly, light, stiff enough (Reynolds 853 in those days). But it doesn't inspire. It's the utility bike, the one I put in the trunk when I take a trip somewhere, the one I ride in iffy weather but it's only the bike of choice when I intend to ride a lot off road. I don't go down to the basement and say I want to ride the Gunnar. I go downstairs and say I want to ride the Riv or I want to ride the Ritchey. Neither the Riv nor the Ritchey have a superior ride to the Gunnar. They're not exactly the same but they're all very good. The Riv is the most comfortable bike I have ever owned and is the most adaptable bike I can imagine- it lives up to its name. It's been a mountain bike, a commuter bike, a racing club training ride bike, a randonneuse and it's done them all with aplomb. The Ritchey is pretty comfortable and is the best-handling race bike I ever had, better than any fancy Reparto Corsa Italian job or anything specialized for racing. I think that bike around corners, I don't steer it. The Gunnar sort of splits the difference between them and handles particularly well off-road. But the Gunnar doesn't inspire and I think that is purely about aesthetics. The undeniable craftsmanship of the Gunnar frame is very evident. But TIG welds just don't move me the way a finely shaped and filed lug does or the graceful curve of a fillet. Call me shallow and vain, it'd be true enough, but the aesthetic of TIG doesn't do it for me. I don't think it's a worse way to stick tubes together from a mechanical perspective- TIG frames have proven to be effective and durable. I don't look down on TIG frames- they just don't make my heart sing. Obviously there are many people who feel the opposite and more power to 'em. I'm delighted that choices remain in the world of cycling and we can all pick up something that stirs us and makes us chafe to get out for a ride. As for a TIG'd Rivendell... it would ride like a Riv. It would be functionally the same as a Riv. But it wouldn't be a Riv IMHO. A Riv to me is not defined by frame geometry or shellac or twine. It's defined by the overall aesthetic as expressed through the details- the curving shoreline, the cutouts, the bar height relative to the saddle, the fat tires, etc. etc. YMMV. -- You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups RBW Owners Bunch group. To post to this group, send email to rbw-owners-bu...@googlegroups.com. To unsubscribe from this group, send email to rbw-owners-bunch+unsubscr...@googlegroups.com. For more options, visit this group at http://groups.google.com/group/rbw-owners-bunch?hl=en.
[RBW] Re: Would it be against the law - a tigged Rivendell?
A small company can't be all things to all customers. RBW probably has a corner on the new-production, non-custom, lugged-steel market. It's hard to imagine what RBW could do with TIG that Surly hasn't done already (Surly bikes are wonderful and smart and high quality, and a $100 powdercoat remedies any color complaints). Of course, Surly is not alone in the TIG market... If Riv doesn't do lugs, and do them well, then what is their brand identity? I seem to recall that the older reduced-price offerings - i.e. Romulus/ Redwood - were thought to cannibalize Rambouillet sales. I suppose when GP considers new frame offerings, he has to look at the potential for bringing in new customers to the brand, rather than giving current customers lower price alternatives. Back when we had Atlantis frames and bikes for sale, it was the lugs (and a certain amount of name identity) that justified a frameset that, at $1400 a couple years ago, was 50%+ more expensive than a nicely equipped complete LHT. On Dec 10, 3:52 pm, eflayer eddie.fla...@att.net wrote: think about staying in business and making money. sell more framesets, sell more parts, sell more complete bikes. surlys are sorta ugly. surly have ugly decals and are heavy, and don't think there are quill stemmed ones either. think about a bike that looks as great as an orange or green Sam, that rides great, looks great, and cost 30% less. On Dec 10, 1:40 pm, Seth Vidal skvi...@gmail.com wrote: On Thu, Dec 10, 2009 at 4:38 PM, eflayer eddie.fla...@att.net wrote: I know it goes against the grain of everything we stand for here. Actually, what do we stand for here? But don't you think Riv/Grant could do a really really good job on a tigged frameset. No need to sully the Riv name or brand, but maybe a Toyota type thing...and the lugged Rivs could be the Lexuses. There are currently a lot of entries in the tigged Riv-like bike set. But somehow I think Grant's attention to color, geometry, style could equal the best of the lot. Just thing a beautifully tigged Riv bike at maybe $650? He could call it the Tiggua brand. I thought the name for that brand was surly. Seriously though, what would be the point? Rivendell made it's name as lugged, steel. Changing that now doesn't do anything than dilute the brand as far as I can tell. -sv -- You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups RBW Owners Bunch group. To post to this group, send email to rbw-owners-bu...@googlegroups.com. To unsubscribe from this group, send email to rbw-owners-bunch+unsubscr...@googlegroups.com. For more options, visit this group at http://groups.google.com/group/rbw-owners-bunch?hl=en.
[RBW] Re: Would it be against the law - a tigged Rivendell?
My T-shirt says Still Lugged Steel. Vindication will come. Just you wait. The answer to your question don't you think Riv/Grant could do a really good job on a tigged frame? is of course Yes, they could. The follow on is Why?. They have developed a niche market that they understand and serve well. The notion of sell more bikes, make more money isn't necessarily true. The bicycle business (Shimano excepted) is a tough place for anyone to make money. Differentiating yourself from the broader market (lugged frames) and selling to a smaller but more appreciative clientele (us) is highly effective. Bankruptcy courts are crowded with the bones of small companies that felt they had to grow too fast. My sense is they've got a decent small business going, they know what they're doing, and they've got a very clear identity in the market. Sometimes the best decision is to stick to what you do well and keep doing it. dougP On Dec 10, 4:16 pm, Tim McNamara tim...@bitstream.net wrote: Well, I have a 1996 All Rounder (lugged), a ~1995 Ritchey (fillet brazed) and a 1998 Gunnar Crosshairs (TIG). Two of the three were made in Waterford WI. The Gunnar rides great. Handles superbly, light, stiff enough (Reynolds 853 in those days). But it doesn't inspire. It's the utility bike, the one I put in the trunk when I take a trip somewhere, the one I ride in iffy weather but it's only the bike of choice when I intend to ride a lot off road. I don't go down to the basement and say I want to ride the Gunnar. I go downstairs and say I want to ride the Riv or I want to ride the Ritchey. Neither the Riv nor the Ritchey have a superior ride to the Gunnar. They're not exactly the same but they're all very good. The Riv is the most comfortable bike I have ever owned and is the most adaptable bike I can imagine- it lives up to its name. It's been a mountain bike, a commuter bike, a racing club training ride bike, a randonneuse and it's done them all with aplomb. The Ritchey is pretty comfortable and is the best-handling race bike I ever had, better than any fancy Reparto Corsa Italian job or anything specialized for racing. I think that bike around corners, I don't steer it. The Gunnar sort of splits the difference between them and handles particularly well off-road. But the Gunnar doesn't inspire and I think that is purely about aesthetics. The undeniable craftsmanship of the Gunnar frame is very evident. But TIG welds just don't move me the way a finely shaped and filed lug does or the graceful curve of a fillet. Call me shallow and vain, it'd be true enough, but the aesthetic of TIG doesn't do it for me. I don't think it's a worse way to stick tubes together from a mechanical perspective- TIG frames have proven to be effective and durable. I don't look down on TIG frames- they just don't make my heart sing. Obviously there are many people who feel the opposite and more power to 'em. I'm delighted that choices remain in the world of cycling and we can all pick up something that stirs us and makes us chafe to get out for a ride. As for a TIG'd Rivendell... it would ride like a Riv. It would be functionally the same as a Riv. But it wouldn't be a Riv IMHO. A Riv to me is not defined by frame geometry or shellac or twine. It's defined by the overall aesthetic as expressed through the details- the curving shoreline, the cutouts, the bar height relative to the saddle, the fat tires, etc. etc. YMMV. -- You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups RBW Owners Bunch group. To post to this group, send email to rbw-owners-bu...@googlegroups.com. To unsubscribe from this group, send email to rbw-owners-bunch+unsubscr...@googlegroups.com. For more options, visit this group at http://groups.google.com/group/rbw-owners-bunch?hl=en.
Re: [RBW] Re: Would it be against the law - a tigged Rivendell?
This topic is raised too often. The search function applies to conceptual conversations, as well. Thanks, erik -- You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups RBW Owners Bunch group. To post to this group, send email to rbw-owners-bu...@googlegroups.com. To unsubscribe from this group, send email to rbw-owners-bunch+unsubscr...@googlegroups.com. For more options, visit this group at http://groups.google.com/group/rbw-owners-bunch?hl=en.
[RBW] Re: Would it be against the law - a tigged Rivendell?
i did a search on tigged and did not find much. maybe Grant will surprise you/us and announce the Atlantis replacement will be tigged. then he will have order new tee shirts. On Dec 10, 5:05 pm, erik jensen bicyclen...@gmail.com wrote: This topic is raised too often. The search function applies to conceptual conversations, as well. Thanks, erik -- You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups RBW Owners Bunch group. To post to this group, send email to rbw-owners-bu...@googlegroups.com. To unsubscribe from this group, send email to rbw-owners-bunch+unsubscr...@googlegroups.com. For more options, visit this group at http://groups.google.com/group/rbw-owners-bunch?hl=en.
[RBW] Re: Would it be against the law - a tigged Rivendell?
On Dec 10, 7:36 pm, eflayer eddie.fla...@att.net wrote: I feel the same as you about the ultimate aesthetic. What got me thinking on this topic is my new tigged 2009 Fuji Touring. It rides as good as, if not better than, any other steel bike I have ever owned. Tigged in China. Not so pretty of paint or quality of welds. But there is absolutely something about the frameset and the ride that is blowing my mind. One of my local shops has a Fuji Touring set up in their window- it's a nice dark evergreen color. Kind of a british racing green I suppose. Beautiful bike! I'm glad to hear it rides as nice as it looks. -- You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups RBW Owners Bunch group. To post to this group, send email to rbw-owners-bu...@googlegroups.com. To unsubscribe from this group, send email to rbw-owners-bunch+unsubscr...@googlegroups.com. For more options, visit this group at http://groups.google.com/group/rbw-owners-bunch?hl=en.
[RBW] Re: Would it be against the law - a tigged Rivendell?
it actually, to me, rides way better than it looks. I have updated mine with Ultegra/Open Pros, B17, and upjutting Salsa SUL quill. Don't think I'm imagining the ride qualities. Even sold as a touring bike, it seems lighter duty than that to me, and the geometry rides like a faster bike than the typical long wheel based, heavy tubed, touring machine. Would love to hear from someone else who owns one to find out if I am imagining things or not. On Dec 10, 5:40 pm, newenglandbike matthiasbe...@gmail.com wrote: On Dec 10, 7:36 pm, eflayer eddie.fla...@att.net wrote: I feel the same as you about the ultimate aesthetic. What got me thinking on this topic is my new tigged 2009 Fuji Touring. It rides as good as, if not better than, any other steel bike I have ever owned. Tigged in China. Not so pretty of paint or quality of welds. But there is absolutely something about the frameset and the ride that is blowing my mind. One of my local shops has a Fuji Touring set up in their window- it's a nice dark evergreen color. Kind of a british racing green I suppose. Beautiful bike! I'm glad to hear it rides as nice as it looks. -- You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups RBW Owners Bunch group. To post to this group, send email to rbw-owners-bu...@googlegroups.com. To unsubscribe from this group, send email to rbw-owners-bunch+unsubscr...@googlegroups.com. For more options, visit this group at http://groups.google.com/group/rbw-owners-bunch?hl=en.
[RBW] Re: Would it be against the law - a tigged Rivendell?
Just not sure the TIG welded guys are doing that much better these days. Haven't really seen Surly (or others) flying off the sales floor this year. Have nothing against them. Have owned TIG made bikes in the past and am picking up another one tomorrow. But as others have said many times, it's just not the identity of Rivendell. I can put Nitto, Baggins, shellac on other bikes, but that does not make them a Rivendell. My bigger wonder is - what if other companies started making lugged bikes again? Specialized has dipped it piggy that went wee wee wee back into the steel bike craze with the '10 Allez. And previously with the Stumpjumper reissue. What if they came out with those and the Expedition? With lugs? Actually think it would be neat. But would it work in this day and age? (Of course, Fender, not to mention Martin, make a lot of money making guitars that look like they were made back in the day. So who is to say it wouldn't work in other areas.) Eric Platt St. Paul, MN On Dec 10, 7:50�pm, eflayer eddie.fla...@att.net wrote: it actually, to me, rides way better than it looks. �I have updated mine with Ultegra/Open Pros, B17, and upjutting Salsa SUL quill. Don't think I'm imagining the ride qualities. �Even sold as a touring bike, it seems lighter duty than that to me, and the geometry rides like a faster bike than the typical long wheel based, heavy tubed, touring machine. �Would love to hear from someone else who owns one to find out if I am imagining things or not. On Dec 10, 5:40�pm, newenglandbike matthiasbe...@gmail.com wrote: On Dec 10, 7:36 pm, eflayer eddie.fla...@att.net wrote: I feel the same as you about the ultimate aesthetic. �What got me thinking on this topic is my new tigged 2009 Fuji Touring. �It rides as good as, if not better than, any other steel bike I have ever owned. �Tigged in China. �Not so pretty of paint or quality of welds. But there is absolutely something about the frameset and the ride that is blowing my mind. One of my local shops has a Fuji Touring set up in their window- it's a nice dark evergreen color. � Kind of a british racing green I suppose. � � Beautiful bike! � I'm glad to hear it rides as nice as it looks.- Hide quoted text - - Show quoted text - -- You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups RBW Owners Bunch group. To post to this group, send email to rbw-owners-bu...@googlegroups.com. To unsubscribe from this group, send email to rbw-owners-bunch+unsubscr...@googlegroups.com. For more options, visit this group at http://groups.google.com/group/rbw-owners-bunch?hl=en.
[RBW] Re: Would it be against the law - a tigged Rivendell?
I suspect Grant is as likely to sell TIG welded steel bikes as he is to sell lugged carbon fiber. Bill On Dec 10, 1:38 pm, eflayer eddie.fla...@att.net wrote: I know it goes against the grain of everything we stand for here. Actually, what do we stand for here? But don't you think Riv/Grant could do a really really good job on a tigged frameset. No need to sully the Riv name or brand, but maybe a Toyota type thing...and the lugged Rivs could be the Lexuses. There are currently a lot of entries in the tigged Riv-like bike set. But somehow I think Grant's attention to color, geometry, style could equal the best of the lot. Just thing a beautifully tigged Riv bike at maybe $650? He could call it the Tiggua brand. -- You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups RBW Owners Bunch group. To post to this group, send email to rbw-owners-bu...@googlegroups.com. To unsubscribe from this group, send email to rbw-owners-bunch+unsubscr...@googlegroups.com. For more options, visit this group at http://groups.google.com/group/rbw-owners-bunch?hl=en.
[RBW] Re: Would it be against the law - a tigged Rivendell?
Riv/Grant are leaders, not followers. A tigged Atlantis is called an LHT. Probability of Grant copying Surly is zero. dougP On Dec 10, 5:22 pm, eflayer eddie.fla...@att.net wrote: i did a search on tigged and did not find much. maybe Grant will surprise you/us and announce the Atlantis replacement will be tigged. then he will have order new tee shirts. On Dec 10, 5:05 pm, erik jensen bicyclen...@gmail.com wrote: This topic is raised too often. The search function applies to conceptual conversations, as well. Thanks, erik- Hide quoted text - - Show quoted text - -- You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups RBW Owners Bunch group. To post to this group, send email to rbw-owners-bu...@googlegroups.com. To unsubscribe from this group, send email to rbw-owners-bunch+unsubscr...@googlegroups.com. For more options, visit this group at http://groups.google.com/group/rbw-owners-bunch?hl=en.
Re: [RBW] Re: Would it be against the law - a tigged Rivendell?
on 12/10/09 1:52 PM, eflayer at eddie.fla...@att.net wrote: think about a bike that looks as great as an orange or green Sam, that rides great, looks great, and cost 30% less. Now, I thought that the Sam was a great riding, beautiful looking lugged bicycle frame that cost 50% of a Japanese/US-made lugged bicycle. It's funny, because a few years ago, there were a number of iBob threads which were talking about how, if Riv ever brought out a bicycle frame that was under a grand, that would be increadible and everyone would buy it. - Jim -- Jim Edgar cyclofi...@earthlink.net Cyclofiend Bicycle Photo Galleries - http://www.cyclofiend.com Current Classics - Cross Bikes Singlespeed - Working Bikes Send In Your Photos! - Here's how: http://www.cyclofiend.com/guidelines 'You both ride your bike?' He held his hands out and grabbed imaginary handlebars, grinning indulgently, eyeing Tom's helmet. Double disbeleif: not one, but two grown Americans riding bicycles. -- Neal Stephenson, Zodiac -- You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups RBW Owners Bunch group. To post to this group, send email to rbw-owners-bu...@googlegroups.com. To unsubscribe from this group, send email to rbw-owners-bunch+unsubscr...@googlegroups.com. For more options, visit this group at http://groups.google.com/group/rbw-owners-bunch?hl=en.
[RBW] Re: Would it be against the law - a tigged Rivendell?
Dear Eddie, I don't want to be the one to pour tomato ketchup all over your chocolate cake but let me quote from http://www.rivbike.com/article/bicycle_making/the_big_picture All of our frames are lugged steel. Steel, because it's the best material for frames, in terms of toughness, longevity, proportions, repairability, and safety; lugged, because it's better to create a joint with a low-stress sleeve of beautiful steel, than to merely melt steel together, or even joint it with brass fillets. You may personally prefer welded frames, or fillet-brazed frames, and that's fine. We prefer them lugged, and so that's all we make. Rivendells are lugged steel frames, there are lots of others who make tigged steel frames, do it well and do it to a price point. If you look, you will find someone making exactly what you want, how you want and at a price you can afford. You cannot say that for any other consumer durable. How long this happy state of affairs will continue in this present state of financial apocalypse, who can tell. But if there is something you want/need/desire and it's availalble now and you have the money then buy it. For it may not be available this time next year. Merry Christmas to all and thanks for all the wonderful emails that have entertained me so much this past year. George Millwood Sydney, Australia where it has almost been too hot to ride this past fortnight. -- You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups RBW Owners Bunch group. To post to this group, send email to rbw-owners-bu...@googlegroups.com. To unsubscribe from this group, send email to rbw-owners-bunch+unsubscr...@googlegroups.com. For more options, visit this group at http://groups.google.com/group/rbw-owners-bunch?hl=en.
