Re: [WISPA] 3650Mhz and Wimax Vendors
No. Scriv On Thu, Apr 23, 2009 at 11:21 PM, Chuck Bartosch ch...@clarityconnect.com wrote: John, Is this with diversity antennas? Chuck On Apr 23, 2009, at 4:41 PM, John Scrivner wrote: I was not saying you CANNOT possibly do that distance. It was being referenced as a typical cell radius spec for discussion here and frankly that is unrealistic. I find that everyone in roughly a quarter mile radius can get our 3650 WiMax service regardless of terrain and obstacles in the way. It will penetrate a forest at that distance from my experience. Beyond that you need at least partial LOS. After about 1.5 miles radius you better have good LOS out to as far as you wish to set your timing to allow for proper ACK signaling. I think we have ours set to about 6 miles max or so. Our longest CPE connection distance is about 3/4 of a mile right now. The WiMax service runs flawlessly. We have it positioned as a top of the line service for our leased line style customers. One of them bought both leased line and WiMax from us. We nearly doubled our monthly ARPU on that one. :-) It took 3 customers to pay for our WiMax installation here with an 18 month payout. We sold those in the first 2 months. That is not too shabby! :-) Scriv On Thu, Apr 23, 2009 at 1:03 PM, Mike Hammett wispawirel...@ics-il.net wrote: I can do almost 20 km with 5 GHz, why can't I with 3650? - Mike Hammett Intelligent Computing Solutions http://www.ics-il.com -- From: John Scrivner j...@scrivner.com Sent: Thursday, April 23, 2009 11:32 AM To: WISPA General List wireless@wispa.org Subject: Re: [WISPA] 3650Mhz and Wimax Vendors On Thu, Apr 23, 2009 at 10:51 AM, Patrick Leary ple...@apertonet.com wrote: Thanks for the compliment Daniel, but please God, let's not have anyone thinking they can build a 30 km radius cell with our stuff or anyone's stuff in WiMAX. I don't care if you can see your dog running away for three days it is so flat and the sun always shines and the wind is always at your back -- I know of no PMP situation where such a cell should ever be built. Patrick Leary Aperto Networks 813.426.4230 mobile Thanks Patrick. It took me a long time to get past the original snake oil mentality of WiMax proponents when they were claiming 70 megabits out 70 miles. I went through a phase of being dead set against WiMax because I thought the culture lacked integrity over all the false hype. Then I began reading the real story of what made 802.16 technology tick. The more I read the more I decided that it really is a sound technology. I eventually bought a system from Redline and have been quite happy with the results. It is nice to be able to go into my higher end business customers and tell them I can deliver more for their money through the air than cable and DSL can bring to the table. That is TRUE. The service flows capability alone make WiMax worth the extra bucks. Now fast forward to this thread. I have seen my WiMax vendor of choice bashed by another vendor rep. I have seen the same person claiming 20 to 30km sized cells in 3650 which is not a reasonable expectation. It makes me sick to my stomach. We should expect that people will act with respect and integrity on industry list servers. Let's straighten up folks. Scriv WISPA Wants You! Join today! http://signup.wispa.org/ WISPA Wireless List: wireless@wispa.org Subscribe/Unsubscribe: http://lists.wispa.org/mailman/listinfo/wireless Archives: http://lists.wispa.org/pipermail/wireless/ WISPA Wants You! Join today! http://signup.wispa.org/ WISPA Wireless List: wireless@wispa.org Subscribe/Unsubscribe: http://lists.wispa.org/mailman/listinfo/wireless Archives: http://lists.wispa.org/pipermail/wireless/ WISPA Wants You! Join today! http://signup.wispa.org/ WISPA Wireless List: wireless@wispa.org Subscribe/Unsubscribe: http://lists.wispa.org/mailman/listinfo/wireless Archives: http://lists.wispa.org/pipermail/wireless/ -- Chuck Bartosch Clarity Connect, Inc. 200 Pleasant Grove Road Ithaca, NY 14850 (607) 257-8268 If all is not lost, where is it? WISPA Wants You! Join today! http://signup.wispa.org/ WISPA Wireless List: wireless@wispa.org
Re: [WISPA] 3650Mhz and Wimax Vendors
Butch Evans wrote: This thread has degraded WAY beyond useful. Maybe for you Butch, but I am thinking this was a very useful and informative thread and I hate to see someone stifled because of one mans disdain. We should all be able to discuss and hash things out without worrying we are going to offend anyone. We are after all, professionals here. George On Wed, 2009-04-22 at 22:02 -0400, mlio...@r337.com wrote: MetroConnect's SEC filings state they had $2k of cash on hand. Since that time MetroConnect's revenue has declined each quarter and now they state their cash on hand is $0. This thread has degraded WAY beyond useful. If you want to argue petty points, do so OFFLIST. If you wish to provide information that is useful, then please do so. WISPA Wants You! Join today! http://signup.wispa.org/ WISPA Wireless List: wireless@wispa.org Subscribe/Unsubscribe: http://lists.wispa.org/mailman/listinfo/wireless Archives: http://lists.wispa.org/pipermail/wireless/
Re: [WISPA] 3650Mhz and Wimax Vendors
I would argue slightly different 1) There are some that think the technology is really cool, because they read the spec sheet, but also think it is over priced, so therefore never deploy it, and never really know. EVerything you read about WiMax is exciting from a tech perspective. 2) Then there are the other people who pay more for a product than some think it is worth, and deploy it, and learn first hand the negative things about the product, and what features are overspec'd, but would never disclose their findings publically, as it would only bring attention to the fact that their product offering is not as good as their own marketing says it is. My point being, its hard to get a straight answer from someone that 1) hasn't used it, or 2) someone that currently standardized on using it. Either way, the opinion is biased, and has vested interests to protect. What you really need to find is someone that tried it long enough, but then decided not to keep using it. They will probably have the real deal scope on things. If you can't find that person, maybe WiMax is good as they say it is :-) In our case, we did 5.8Ghz Pre-WiMax gear trials 4 years ago, and it was a failure here in the DC market. Trango (non-WiMax) proved to be a much better solution for that market, from our perspective. I really would have liked to see how much better official current generation WiMax worked or improved. Unfortuneately I'm in a no 3650 zone. :-( I don't think there is any confusion on whether WiMax is the best of class out there. Its strictly an ROI/affordabilty question, in which some are willing to pay for the benefits. Respectfully, Tom DeReggi RapidDSL Wireless, Inc IntAirNet- Fixed Wireless Broadband - Original Message - From: Matt Liotta mlio...@r337.com To: WISPA General List wireless@wispa.org Sent: Wednesday, April 22, 2009 2:01 PM Subject: Re: [WISPA] 3650Mhz and Wimax Vendors Those of us operators who actually have experience in the field with the gear tend to avoid posting to threads about WiMAX because the threads quickly devolve. I suggest you read the archives of this mailing list. To summarize though; operators who use WiMAX like it and think the technology is actually different and better than what else is out there. The people who don't use WiMAX think it is overpriced and not particularly interesting. -Matt On Apr 22, 2009, at 1:41 PM, Charles Wyble wrote: I'm looking for more operational experience and end user experience. Certainly good technology contributes to that, but that isn't my primary goal. Michael Baird wrote: It was interesting, but I was hoping for some more first hand experience reporting. Essentially the only explanation for improved range was a lower noise floor, which isn't a wimax thing, but a 3.65 thing. I think a lot of the 802.16d/e talk is market speak, I'm trying to get through that and establish technical reasons why one or the other is superior. Regards Michael Baird So the recent thread on Wimax was quite interesting. I need to read up on the different technologies involved. I believe that a fixed deployment is sufficient for many many many needs and markets (wireless local loop if you will). If people want mobility/end user wireless they can hang an 802.11 AP off the ethernet port of whatever CPE. Wimax directly to the end device doesn't make much sense to me, in most markets and use cases. Obviously if you are supporting a highly mobile workforce (say public sector type stuff) then it makes a lot more sense. It got me thinking... if one was a new WISP entering an un(der)served market, it seems that it would not make sense to deploy standard 802.11 gear, but rather Wimax gear in 3650Mhz. Is this an accurate assessment? One particular area that I'm targeting, doesn't have any broadband available (other then 3g from Verzion). So they would need to purchase CPE anyway, and it wouldn't be anything they could get from Best Buy (DSL or Cable modem). I'm in the process of negotiating access to the excluded areas (in Southern California), but it's been slow going. Once I gain access it will open up many areas to some sorely needed competition. So who are the vendors in this space worth considering? What are peoples experiences with the sales process (both pre and post sales engineering) etc etc. WISPA Wants You! Join today! http://signup.wispa.org/ WISPA Wireless List: wireless@wispa.org Subscribe/Unsubscribe: http://lists.wispa.org/mailman/listinfo/wireless Archives: http://lists.wispa.org/pipermail/wireless/ WISPA Wants You! Join today! http://signup.wispa.org
Re: [WISPA] 3650Mhz and Wimax Vendors
John, My boss has field tested Aperto's gear to 15miles at full modulation... so a 30km cell radius (18 miles) is possible. But the thing is that wouldn't be the average deployment... and with Cyclone gear you could push the system out that far too (because its going to be line of sight, and the cell is going to be on a mountain top probably) If the only thing you know about deploying gear is trees like the east coast... that expectation isn't going to work for you. If you live in the west where you have towers on mountaintops that can be seen from 70 miles away... its okay. My biggest problem with Jeff's analysis is how many customers signed up in a year... I don't think any WISP will grow 500 customers in 5 months. Or even 150 customers in 5 months (well I've setup a tower before and signed up that many customers to one... but that is the exception rather than the norm). The other catch would be... none of this math makes sense in a rip and replace... so unless your new... you have to rip an old system out to get WiMAX. I also have a slight issue with the assertion that Canopy does not do VoIP... it does it just fine and many Canopy WISP's also sell VoIP services (prime example... Skybeam/JAB). There also is never a 100% take rate on it (probably more like 50% tops) so that has to be factored in. With that said... besides the ugly CPE... we have chosen Aperto as our vendor of choice in the 3.65GHz band. I like it, and I think if you do field trials with it, it will win out over many of the other systems. Daniel White 3-dB Networks http://www.3dbnetworks.com -Original Message- From: wireless-boun...@wispa.org [mailto:wireless-boun...@wispa.org] On Behalf Of John Scrivner Sent: Thursday, April 23, 2009 12:13 AM To: jefftho...@fastmail.fm; WISPA General List Subject: Re: [WISPA] 3650Mhz and Wimax Vendors Cell radius= 30km The point is for a TCO, that's one tower site to cover a 20km radius, meaning less leases per month of 1k or more, so isntead of 4 tower sites to cover this area ( and pay 4k per month ) So...how are you breaking the laws of physics with this system? Unless you are serving the middle of the dessert then you probably need to back your cell radius down to say 3km. I see above you use 2 different cell radius figures. Is it possible you are overstating expectations in a big way here Jeff? I am a proponent of WiMax but I am getting sick and tired of seeing bloated specs to sell systems. It is NOT something I want to see and I feel that these false representations have hurt WiMax adoption for years. Scriv WISPA Wants You! Join today! http://signup.wispa.org/ WISPA Wireless List: wireless@wispa.org Subscribe/Unsubscribe: http://lists.wispa.org/mailman/listinfo/wireless Archives: http://lists.wispa.org/pipermail/wireless/ WISPA Wants You! Join today! http://signup.wispa.org/ WISPA Wireless List: wireless@wispa.org Subscribe/Unsubscribe: http://lists.wispa.org/mailman/listinfo/wireless Archives: http://lists.wispa.org/pipermail/wireless/
Re: [WISPA] 3650Mhz and Wimax Vendors
Do you have any coverage plots? When I started the other thread, I was really looking for the technical merit's, more then the cost benefits or political arguments. I'm interested 802.16d vs 802.16e, some say 16e is the greatest, some say 16d is the best, what are the technical reasons behind which is which. My task at hand is to write up a comparison for the benefit of my boss, so that we can make an informed decision on which technology to choose. I've read the specs, but I was hoping to get beyond that, and be able to include issues with real world deployments, pros/cons of either tech. We don't want to make the investments (we will run fiber to each tower) and replace our existing deployments with it. We do want to do voice as well (we have a switch and are a CLEC). Regards Michael Baird John, My boss has field tested Aperto's gear to 15miles at full modulation... so a 30km cell radius (18 miles) is possible. But the thing is that wouldn't be the average deployment... and with Cyclone gear you could push the system out that far too (because its going to be line of sight, and the cell is going to be on a mountain top probably) If the only thing you know about deploying gear is trees like the east coast... that expectation isn't going to work for you. If you live in the west where you have towers on mountaintops that can be seen from 70 miles away... its okay. My biggest problem with Jeff's analysis is how many customers signed up in a year... I don't think any WISP will grow 500 customers in 5 months. Or even 150 customers in 5 months (well I've setup a tower before and signed up that many customers to one... but that is the exception rather than the norm). The other catch would be... none of this math makes sense in a rip and replace... so unless your new... you have to rip an old system out to get WiMAX. I also have a slight issue with the assertion that Canopy does not do VoIP... it does it just fine and many Canopy WISP's also sell VoIP services (prime example... Skybeam/JAB). There also is never a 100% take rate on it (probably more like 50% tops) so that has to be factored in. With that said... besides the ugly CPE... we have chosen Aperto as our vendor of choice in the 3.65GHz band. I like it, and I think if you do field trials with it, it will win out over many of the other systems. Daniel White 3-dB Networks http://www.3dbnetworks.com -Original Message- From: wireless-boun...@wispa.org [mailto:wireless-boun...@wispa.org] On Behalf Of John Scrivner Sent: Thursday, April 23, 2009 12:13 AM To: jefftho...@fastmail.fm; WISPA General List Subject: Re: [WISPA] 3650Mhz and Wimax Vendors Cell radius= 30km The point is for a TCO, that's one tower site to cover a 20km radius, meaning less leases per month of 1k or more, so isntead of 4 tower sites to cover this area ( and pay 4k per month ) So...how are you breaking the laws of physics with this system? Unless you are serving the middle of the dessert then you probably need to back your cell radius down to say 3km. I see above you use 2 different cell radius figures. Is it possible you are overstating expectations in a big way here Jeff? I am a proponent of WiMax but I am getting sick and tired of seeing bloated specs to sell systems. It is NOT something I want to see and I feel that these false representations have hurt WiMax adoption for years. Scriv WISPA Wants You! Join today! http://signup.wispa.org/ WISPA Wireless List: wireless@wispa.org Subscribe/Unsubscribe: http://lists.wispa.org/mailman/listinfo/wireless Archives: http://lists.wispa.org/pipermail/wireless/ WISPA Wants You! Join today! http://signup.wispa.org/ WISPA Wireless List: wireless@wispa.org Subscribe/Unsubscribe: http://lists.wispa.org/mailman/listinfo/wireless Archives: http://lists.wispa.org/pipermail/wireless/ WISPA Wants You! Join today! http://signup.wispa.org/ WISPA Wireless List: wireless@wispa.org Subscribe/Unsubscribe: http://lists.wispa.org/mailman/listinfo/wireless Archives: http://lists.wispa.org/pipermail/wireless/
Re: [WISPA] 3650Mhz and Wimax Vendors
lol Good to hear. Simple fix: get different CPE. :) On Wed, Apr 22, 2009 at 7:54 PM, Jeff Booher jefftho...@fastmail.fm wrote: FYI Ben, we are finally fixing ( or fixed ) that issue with running as a service and now have A version for oracle. Sorry tranzeo is 00gly :) -Original Message- From: wireless-boun...@wispa.org [mailto:wireless-boun...@wispa.org] On Behalf Of Charles Wyble Sent: Wednesday, April 22, 2009 3:40 PM To: WISPA General List Subject: Re: [WISPA] 3650Mhz and Wimax Vendors This is what I'm looking for. Thank you!! Ben Wiechman wrote: We've looked at several different vendors for WiMAX and have been running Alvarion in 2.5GHz for almost 18 months now. Aperto seems to have a decent RF platform, as does Redline and Alvarion. We had two main issues with Aperto: ugly Tranzeo CPE and their EMS. Maybe some things have changed by the EMS was required to configure each base station and MS as it entered the network, however ran only on windows and didn't run as a service. So one clown closing the window and your network was dead in the water. Redline appears to have a solid product as well as does Alvarion. As was stated earlier the biggest reason to look at WiMAX is for differentiated services. If voice or a high quality data play is in your business plan it makes sense. If you are suffering from interference issues, and spectrum is becoming much more polluted everywhere, so 3650 does help in that regard. With access to 2.5GHz spectrum for us WiMAX was an option we considered purely for the penetration. The bulk of our subscriber base was only accessible using 900MHz access points, and we quickly outgrew the capacity of the Canopy APs we have been using and also are suffering increasingly from interference from a number of sources: RFID, baby monitors, a couple lingering paging companies, GPS correction for farming, saturation due to excessive numbers of Access POints to try to meet bandwidth demands, etc. We also didn't feel that we would be able to offer services other than basic broadband access across the Canopy platform. The 16e standard is valuable for us due to the penetration provided by MIMO and beamforming that are available within the standard. We could care less about the mobility (and added overhead) but its hard to get one without the other. If you've got clean spectrum and are only looking to deploy basic data access WiMAX probably doesn't make sense. If you have access to licensed spectrum, want to deploy differentiated services, or are looking at 3650 WiMAX may make sense. 16d will have less overhead and less cost: the complexities of the mobile platform are not there, nor do you need additional network components like an ASN-GW, and typically provisioning is greatly simplified. The problem you run into on the 16e side is that every vendor is only thinking about Clearwire and not considering the WISP and the price point a WISP is able to justify. Ben Wiechman Wisper High Speed Internet On Wed, Apr 22, 2009 at 4:30 PM, Pat O'Connor p...@inlandnet.com wrote: Anybody use Airspan for Wimax? Michael Baird wrote: It was interesting, but I was hoping for some more first hand experience reporting. Essentially the only explanation for improved range was a lower noise floor, which isn't a wimax thing, but a 3.65 thing. I think a lot of the 802.16d/e talk is market speak, I'm trying to get through that and establish technical reasons why one or the other is superior. Regards Michael Baird So the recent thread on Wimax was quite interesting. I need to read up on the different technologies involved. I believe that a fixed deployment is sufficient for many many many needs and markets (wireless local loop if you will). If people want mobility/end user wireless they can hang an 802.11 AP off the ethernet port of whatever CPE. Wimax directly to the end device doesn't make much sense to me, in most markets and use cases. Obviously if you are supporting a highly mobile workforce (say public sector type stuff) then it makes a lot more sense. It got me thinking... if one was a new WISP entering an un(der)served market, it seems that it would not make sense to deploy standard 802.11 gear, but rather Wimax gear in 3650Mhz. Is this an accurate assessment? One particular area that I'm targeting, doesn't have any broadband available (other then 3g from Verzion). So they would need to purchase CPE anyway, and it wouldn't be anything they could get from Best Buy (DSL or Cable modem). I'm in the process of negotiating access to the excluded areas (in Southern California), but it's been slow going. Once I gain access it will open up many areas to some sorely needed competition. So who are the vendors in this space worth considering? What are peoples experiences with the sales process (both pre and post sales
Re: [WISPA] 3650Mhz and Wimax Vendors
You are not going to get the answers you are seeking. Worse still anyone who tries to give you those answers is either uninformed or lying. As I stated several posts ago, you need to have a thorough understanding of the equipment, have conducting extensive field trials, and produced a business plan specifically for the equipment you selected. You CANNOT get these answers from a mailing list or from datasheets and technical specifications. There are too many tradeoffs that are not altogether clear until have a specific set of equipment, geography, and experience. For example, just consider the variables involved in determining effective throughput for a subscriber. Your SNR determines what modulation you can run. However, your SNR is affected by your channel width, use of uplink subchannelization, and/or diversity. Of course, lowering the channel width and using uplink subchannelization lowers the theoretical throughput, while raising the SNR. Then there is your framerate and which service flow polling priority you have assigned it, which determines the latency for the flow. Latency has a huge impact on theoretical throughput. Strangely because of the TDD nature of WiMAX radios higher latency enables greater throughput up and until it lowers the theoretical maximum throughput of the flow. The above doesn't even consider the differences between 802.16d and 802.16e. Nor does it consider the impact of multiple subscribers and/ or multiple services flows per subscriber. So what is the right answer to whether to use WiMAX or even which WiMAX flavor or vendor? It depends. -Matt On Apr 23, 2009, at 8:42 AM, Michael Baird wrote: Do you have any coverage plots? When I started the other thread, I was really looking for the technical merit's, more then the cost benefits or political arguments. I'm interested 802.16d vs 802.16e, some say 16e is the greatest, some say 16d is the best, what are the technical reasons behind which is which. My task at hand is to write up a comparison for the benefit of my boss, so that we can make an informed decision on which technology to choose. I've read the specs, but I was hoping to get beyond that, and be able to include issues with real world deployments, pros/cons of either tech. We don't want to make the investments (we will run fiber to each tower) and replace our existing deployments with it. We do want to do voice as well (we have a switch and are a CLEC). Regards Michael Baird John, My boss has field tested Aperto's gear to 15miles at full modulation... so a 30km cell radius (18 miles) is possible. But the thing is that wouldn't be the average deployment... and with Cyclone gear you could push the system out that far too (because its going to be line of sight, and the cell is going to be on a mountain top probably) If the only thing you know about deploying gear is trees like the east coast... that expectation isn't going to work for you. If you live in the west where you have towers on mountaintops that can be seen from 70 miles away... its okay. My biggest problem with Jeff's analysis is how many customers signed up in a year... I don't think any WISP will grow 500 customers in 5 months. Or even 150 customers in 5 months (well I've setup a tower before and signed up that many customers to one... but that is the exception rather than the norm). The other catch would be... none of this math makes sense in a rip and replace... so unless your new... you have to rip an old system out to get WiMAX. I also have a slight issue with the assertion that Canopy does not do VoIP... it does it just fine and many Canopy WISP's also sell VoIP services (prime example... Skybeam/JAB). There also is never a 100% take rate on it (probably more like 50% tops) so that has to be factored in. With that said... besides the ugly CPE... we have chosen Aperto as our vendor of choice in the 3.65GHz band. I like it, and I think if you do field trials with it, it will win out over many of the other systems. Daniel White 3-dB Networks http://www.3dbnetworks.com -Original Message- From: wireless-boun...@wispa.org [mailto:wireless- boun...@wispa.org] On Behalf Of John Scrivner Sent: Thursday, April 23, 2009 12:13 AM To: jefftho...@fastmail.fm; WISPA General List Subject: Re: [WISPA] 3650Mhz and Wimax Vendors Cell radius= 30km The point is for a TCO, that's one tower site to cover a 20km radius, meaning less leases per month of 1k or more, so isntead of 4 tower sites to cover this area ( and pay 4k per month ) So...how are you breaking the laws of physics with this system? Unless you are serving the middle of the dessert then you probably need to back your cell radius down to say 3km. I see above you use 2 different cell radius figures. Is it possible you are overstating expectations
Re: [WISPA] 3650Mhz and Wimax Vendors
I'd love to contribute more, however our experience really lies in 2.5GHz, which has a completely different power output profile than you get in the unlicensed bands, or 3650 so you're going to see a corresponding decrease in cell size and modulation levels as the power output decreases and noise floors are higher. In 2.5GHz we see penetration as good as and in many cases better than we saw with 900MHz Canopy. We have several operational customers out to 22-23k in areas with varied terrain, trees, etc, in Minnesota. However that is not the norm. We typically use 6-8 miles as a target radius. 3650 is going to be somewhat less than that due to the lower output powers and less receive diversity. I do think to represent the range of a typical 3650 sector as 30km is stretching things a bit. It would be more realistic comparison to fix the range of a 3650 WiMAX system as approximately that of a 2.4/5.8 legacy product: Canopy, Trango, 802.11, whatever. Typical range on 3650 is going to be less than 900MHz, however you will have 4x the bandwidth capacity, probably pps capaicty increases as well depending on vendors - less noticable with VL 900, more with some lower end 900MHz gear. You may gain some additional penetration with the slightly higher EIRP provided by 3650 and MIMO. You will likely gain QoS to better be able to provide voice or SLA type services. On Thu, Apr 23, 2009 at 3:05 AM, Tom DeReggi wirelessn...@rapiddsl.netwrote: I would argue slightly different 1) There are some that think the technology is really cool, because they read the spec sheet, but also think it is over priced, so therefore never deploy it, and never really know. EVerything you read about WiMax is exciting from a tech perspective. 2) Then there are the other people who pay more for a product than some think it is worth, and deploy it, and learn first hand the negative things about the product, and what features are overspec'd, but would never disclose their findings publically, as it would only bring attention to the fact that their product offering is not as good as their own marketing says it is. My point being, its hard to get a straight answer from someone that 1) hasn't used it, or 2) someone that currently standardized on using it. Either way, the opinion is biased, and has vested interests to protect. What you really need to find is someone that tried it long enough, but then decided not to keep using it. They will probably have the real deal scope on things. If you can't find that person, maybe WiMax is good as they say it is :-) In our case, we did 5.8Ghz Pre-WiMax gear trials 4 years ago, and it was a failure here in the DC market. Trango (non-WiMax) proved to be a much better solution for that market, from our perspective. I really would have liked to see how much better official current generation WiMax worked or improved. Unfortuneately I'm in a no 3650 zone. :-( I don't think there is any confusion on whether WiMax is the best of class out there. Its strictly an ROI/affordabilty question, in which some are willing to pay for the benefits. Respectfully, Tom DeReggi RapidDSL Wireless, Inc IntAirNet- Fixed Wireless Broadband - Original Message - From: Matt Liotta mlio...@r337.com To: WISPA General List wireless@wispa.org Sent: Wednesday, April 22, 2009 2:01 PM Subject: Re: [WISPA] 3650Mhz and Wimax Vendors Those of us operators who actually have experience in the field with the gear tend to avoid posting to threads about WiMAX because the threads quickly devolve. I suggest you read the archives of this mailing list. To summarize though; operators who use WiMAX like it and think the technology is actually different and better than what else is out there. The people who don't use WiMAX think it is overpriced and not particularly interesting. -Matt On Apr 22, 2009, at 1:41 PM, Charles Wyble wrote: I'm looking for more operational experience and end user experience. Certainly good technology contributes to that, but that isn't my primary goal. Michael Baird wrote: It was interesting, but I was hoping for some more first hand experience reporting. Essentially the only explanation for improved range was a lower noise floor, which isn't a wimax thing, but a 3.65 thing. I think a lot of the 802.16d/e talk is market speak, I'm trying to get through that and establish technical reasons why one or the other is superior. Regards Michael Baird So the recent thread on Wimax was quite interesting. I need to read up on the different technologies involved. I believe that a fixed deployment is sufficient for many many many needs and markets (wireless local loop if you will). If people want mobility/end user wireless they can hang an 802.11 AP off the ethernet port of whatever CPE. Wimax directly to the end device doesn't make much sense to me, in most markets and use cases. Obviously
Re: [WISPA] 3650Mhz and Wimax Vendors
On Wed, 2009-04-22 at 23:32 -0700, George Rogato wrote: Maybe for you Butch, but I am thinking this was a very useful and informative thread and I hate to see someone stifled because of one mans disdain. Which part of the argument was useful? The specific parts of the conversation that I was referring to were not technical in nature. This thread does have some useful content for sure, but the specific conversation that I responded to did not. We should all be able to discuss and hash things out without worrying we are going to offend anyone. We are after all, professionals here. Discussion is fine. Hashing things out is fine. Arguing until the thread (or one specific part of the thread) degrades to the point where the argument becomes my daddy can whip your daddy as this one did is not fine. I don't see the professionalism in the 4 or 5 posts related to this conversation. I did not ask that the thread be closed anyway. I simply asked that people limit their comments to useful content and stop the petty bickering. -- * Butch Evans * Professional Network Consultation* * http://www.butchevans.com/* Network Engineering * * http://www.wispa.org/ * WISPA Board Member * * http://blog.butchevans.com/ * Wired or Wireless Networks * WISPA Wants You! Join today! http://signup.wispa.org/ WISPA Wireless List: wireless@wispa.org Subscribe/Unsubscribe: http://lists.wispa.org/mailman/listinfo/wireless Archives: http://lists.wispa.org/pipermail/wireless/
Re: [WISPA] 3650Mhz and Wimax Vendors
Any operator making a technology partner decision on any part of the network (wireless or otherwise) needs to access the health of the potential partner. That should be SOP, not just something done in passing. If you are making real investments, you need to know if your supplier is viable in the very basic sense. While most who post here tend to be waited towards technical responsibility (with many exceptions), even engineers should want to answer the vendor survivability question. Ask it of all of us. Patrick Leary Aperto Networks 813.426.4230 mobile -Original Message- From: wireless-boun...@wispa.org [mailto:wireless-boun...@wispa.org] On Behalf Of Pat O'Connor Sent: Wednesday, April 22, 2009 3:38 PM To: WISPA General List Subject: Re: [WISPA] 3650Mhz and Wimax Vendors Geeze. Not comforting at all. Aperto is my first choice now because I believe they use TR-069. But I wanted to see if anyone had used Airspan's Macromax product. Matt Liotta wrote: http://www.palmbeachpost.com/localnews/content/business/epaper/2009/04/2 0/0420airspan.html -Matt On Apr 22, 2009, at 5:30 PM, Pat O'Connor wrote: Anybody use Airspan for Wimax? Michael Baird wrote: It was interesting, but I was hoping for some more first hand experience reporting. Essentially the only explanation for improved range was a lower noise floor, which isn't a wimax thing, but a 3.65 thing. I think a lot of the 802.16d/e talk is market speak, I'm trying to get through that and establish technical reasons why one or the other is superior. Regards Michael Baird So the recent thread on Wimax was quite interesting. I need to read up on the different technologies involved. I believe that a fixed deployment is sufficient for many many many needs and markets (wireless local loop if you will). If people want mobility/end user wireless they can hang an 802.11 AP off the ethernet port of whatever CPE. Wimax directly to the end device doesn't make much sense to me, in most markets and use cases. Obviously if you are supporting a highly mobile workforce (say public sector type stuff) then it makes a lot more sense. It got me thinking... if one was a new WISP entering an un(der)served market, it seems that it would not make sense to deploy standard 802.11 gear, but rather Wimax gear in 3650Mhz. Is this an accurate assessment? One particular area that I'm targeting, doesn't have any broadband available (other then 3g from Verzion). So they would need to purchase CPE anyway, and it wouldn't be anything they could get from Best Buy (DSL or Cable modem). I'm in the process of negotiating access to the excluded areas (in Southern California), but it's been slow going. Once I gain access it will open up many areas to some sorely needed competition. So who are the vendors in this space worth considering? What are peoples experiences with the sales process (both pre and post sales engineering) etc etc. WISPA Wants You! Join today! http://signup.wispa.org/ WISPA Wireless List: wireless@wispa.org Subscribe/Unsubscribe: http://lists.wispa.org/mailman/listinfo/wireless Archives: http://lists.wispa.org/pipermail/wireless/ WISPA Wants You! Join today! http://signup.wispa.org/ WISPA Wireless List: wireless@wispa.org Subscribe/Unsubscribe: http://lists.wispa.org/mailman/listinfo/wireless Archives: http://lists.wispa.org/pipermail/wireless/ WISPA Wants You! Join today! http://signup.wispa.org/ WISPA Wireless List: wireless@wispa.org Subscribe/Unsubscribe: http://lists.wispa.org/mailman/listinfo/wireless Archives: http://lists.wispa.org/pipermail/wireless/ WISPA Wants You! Join today! http://signup.wispa.org/ WISPA Wireless List: wireless@wispa.org Subscribe/Unsubscribe: http://lists.wispa.org/mailman/listinfo/wireless Archives: http://lists.wispa.org/pipermail/wireless/ WISPA Wants You! Join today! http://signup.wispa.org/ WISPA Wireless List: wireless@wispa.org Subscribe/Unsubscribe: http://lists.wispa.org/mailman/listinfo/wireless Archives: http
Re: [WISPA] 3650Mhz and Wimax Vendors
Matt, you said you needed to provide a reason why you did not suggest Aperto. Would it not be preferrable to provide a real reason, not something that is based on a weak deduction, e.g. Aperto issues few PRs so they must not do any business? We are not nearly so large as my friends at Alvarion to be sure (who uses PRs sparringly, in a manner I support and respect). But we are also far different then the three small publicly-held companies under very severe financial survival diress (as in they have publicly announced they are searching for options in order to survive) who need to issue customer PRs. I'd also argue that we are right-sized for the 3650 space -- big enough to have some of the best scientific minds in WiMAX (look at our patents and role in creating the 802.16 standard), yet small enough to actually REALLY care about the business of North American WISPs, not just carriers. Aperto should be on any and everyone's list going in to the WiMAX game. In other words, check us out before checking us off. I think you know me fairly well and that I'd not tie my horse to any firm I did not deeply respect and think more than capable. Regards, Patrick Leary Aperto Networks 813.426.4230 mobile -Original Message- From: wireless-boun...@wispa.org [mailto:wireless-boun...@wispa.org] On Behalf Of mlio...@r337.com Sent: Wednesday, April 22, 2009 6:30 PM To: WISPA General List Subject: Re: [WISPA] 3650Mhz and Wimax Vendors We have several customers in the market with trials or actually deployed. I cant help if they all havent gotten their FCC licenses *duck*, or fully executed in their plans. Remember as well, not EVERYONE uses 3.65ghz, and many customers use 5.8 or 5.4. Actually you can help. As a participant in the 3650 ecosystem you should be highly interested in everyone playing by the same rules. After all, if 3650 gets ruined you'll have a hard time selling 3650 radios. As far as Tolly marcus being employed by aperto, he does work as a contractor for Wireless Connections in sales, but is actively engaged in deploying his networks throughout his focused regions. Its not all however, 3.65ghz. We don't actually make a press release every time we win an operator account either, nor do any other manufacturers. Additionally, in 3.65ghz, I don't believe alvarion is shipping a fully implemented true e system but rather a modified D system with diversity and MRC. That may be, but Aperto did issue a press release for one customer. And, it turns out that customer only has one radio authorization. Further, you mention Tolly Marcus, but what about you? Did you not represent yourself at WiMAX World as a Zing employee? What are people supposed to think given the situation? Did Zing pick Aperto based on merit or an employee relationship? Does Zing have more than one Aperto radio deployed? Either they haven't deployed many radios or they have done so illegally. Both possibilities seem to make them a poor choice for Aperto to use as a representative customer. This is especially true given both Patrick and your statements regarding how little Aperto issues press releases. Shouldn't that mean the press releases actually issued are more important? Remember as well we didn't release 3.650 product until about 6 months after Redline, so you cant expect there to be a lot out there for you to find in the FCC database. As well, we have a lot more history, more products, and actually more carrier customers than Redline does internationally and in the US. If you would like a list of our US or international customer base, feel free to hit me off list. Sure I'll take a list. Finally I find that many operators recommend what they buy: in your case you bought a bunch of Redline. Most folks would never make a reccmeondation for another solution esp when they work for a publically traded company, that would look pretty bad wouldn't it? You have your Bias, and will likely stick to that. With the same thing in mind, your business model is quite unique in the market as you sell large PTP connections and not multipoint connections to small business / consumer. Redline may be a good fit for you then. Please however don't make any judgements on our product when you have never tested it, deployed it, received a quotation, or talked to one of our many customers. You must not have read my post thoroughly. I specifically pointed out that I don't have any direct experience with Aperto. However, I needed to provide a reasoned response as to why I didn't suggest Aperto as a WiMAX vendor. -Matt WISPA Wants You! Join today! http://signup.wispa.org/ WISPA Wireless List: wireless@wispa.org Subscribe/Unsubscribe: http://lists.wispa.org/mailman/listinfo/wireless Archives: http://lists.wispa.org/pipermail/wireless
Re: [WISPA] 3650Mhz and Wimax Vendors
That was a PR from June 2008 Matt, when few vendors even had certified product in the market for more than a month or two. Further, Manish is not even here any longer. I joined, first as a full time consultant, in October 22, 2008. Check out PRs since September when the new CEO, Brian, joined. There is plenty to debate here without grinding axes and manufacturing faux criticism. Patrick Leary Aperto Networks 813.426.4230 mobile -Original Message- From: wireless-boun...@wispa.org [mailto:wireless-boun...@wispa.org] On Behalf Of mlio...@r337.com Sent: Wednesday, April 22, 2009 7:02 PM To: WISPA General List Subject: Re: [WISPA] 3650Mhz and Wimax Vendors That may be, but Aperto did issue a press release for one customer. And, it turns out that customer only has one radio authorization. Further, you mention Tolly Marcus, but what about you? Did you not represent yourself at WiMAX World as a Zing employee? What are people supposed to think given the situation? Did Zing pick Aperto based on merit or an employee relationship? Does Zing have more than one Aperto radio deployed? Either they haven't deployed many radios or they have done so illegally. Both possibilities seem to make them a poor choice for Aperto to use as a representative customer. This is especially true given both Patrick and your statements regarding how little Aperto issues press releases. Shouldn't that mean the press releases actually issued are more important? It turns out I made a mistake. In further reading it appears that Zing is not the only customer Aperto issued a press release for. There was also a press release issued for NextPhase Wireless now called MetroConnect. Interestingly, MetroConnect has zero radio authorizations. Also of interest is the following quote from the Aperto press release: This is the first of many significant wins we expect to announce this year in the 3.65 GHz band in the U.S., said Manish Gupta, Vice President of Marketing Alliances for Aperto Networks and WiMAX Forum Board Member. The above quote seems to suggest to the reader that MetroConnect is a significant win and that Aperto would announce additional significant wins in the future. To date the only other announcement was Zing. Now maybe MetroConnect bought a bunch of radios and didn't bother to register them with the FCC. Of course, you have to wonder how significant of a win MetroConnect could be when during the quarter the press release was issued MetroConnect's SEC filings state they had $2k of cash on hand. Since that time MetroConnect's revenue has declined each quarter and now they state their cash on hand is $0. -Matt WISPA Wants You! Join today! http://signup.wispa.org/ WISPA Wireless List: wireless@wispa.org Subscribe/Unsubscribe: http://lists.wispa.org/mailman/listinfo/wireless Archives: http://lists.wispa.org/pipermail/wireless/ WISPA Wants You! Join today! http://signup.wispa.org/ WISPA Wireless List: wireless@wispa.org Subscribe/Unsubscribe: http://lists.wispa.org/mailman/listinfo/wireless Archives: http://lists.wispa.org/pipermail/wireless/
Re: [WISPA] 3650Mhz and Wimax Vendors
Thanks for the compliment Daniel, but please God, let's not have anyone thinking they can build a 30 km radius cell with our stuff or anyone's stuff in WiMAX. I don't care if you can see your dog running away for three days it is so flat and the sun always shines and the wind is always at your back -- I know of no PMP situation where such a cell should ever be built. Patrick Leary Aperto Networks 813.426.4230 mobile -Original Message- From: wireless-boun...@wispa.org [mailto:wireless-boun...@wispa.org] On Behalf Of 3-dB Networks Sent: Thursday, April 23, 2009 4:23 AM To: 'WISPA General List' Subject: Re: [WISPA] 3650Mhz and Wimax Vendors John, My boss has field tested Aperto's gear to 15miles at full modulation... so a 30km cell radius (18 miles) is possible. But the thing is that wouldn't be the average deployment... and with Cyclone gear you could push the system out that far too (because its going to be line of sight, and the cell is going to be on a mountain top probably) If the only thing you know about deploying gear is trees like the east coast... that expectation isn't going to work for you. If you live in the west where you have towers on mountaintops that can be seen from 70 miles away... its okay. My biggest problem with Jeff's analysis is how many customers signed up in a year... I don't think any WISP will grow 500 customers in 5 months. Or even 150 customers in 5 months (well I've setup a tower before and signed up that many customers to one... but that is the exception rather than the norm). The other catch would be... none of this math makes sense in a rip and replace... so unless your new... you have to rip an old system out to get WiMAX. I also have a slight issue with the assertion that Canopy does not do VoIP... it does it just fine and many Canopy WISP's also sell VoIP services (prime example... Skybeam/JAB). There also is never a 100% take rate on it (probably more like 50% tops) so that has to be factored in. With that said... besides the ugly CPE... we have chosen Aperto as our vendor of choice in the 3.65GHz band. I like it, and I think if you do field trials with it, it will win out over many of the other systems. Daniel White 3-dB Networks http://www.3dbnetworks.com -Original Message- From: wireless-boun...@wispa.org [mailto:wireless-boun...@wispa.org] On Behalf Of John Scrivner Sent: Thursday, April 23, 2009 12:13 AM To: jefftho...@fastmail.fm; WISPA General List Subject: Re: [WISPA] 3650Mhz and Wimax Vendors Cell radius= 30km The point is for a TCO, that's one tower site to cover a 20km radius, meaning less leases per month of 1k or more, so isntead of 4 tower sites to cover this area ( and pay 4k per month ) So...how are you breaking the laws of physics with this system? Unless you are serving the middle of the dessert then you probably need to back your cell radius down to say 3km. I see above you use 2 different cell radius figures. Is it possible you are overstating expectations in a big way here Jeff? I am a proponent of WiMax but I am getting sick and tired of seeing bloated specs to sell systems. It is NOT something I want to see and I feel that these false representations have hurt WiMax adoption for years. Scriv --- - WISPA Wants You! Join today! http://signup.wispa.org/ --- - WISPA Wireless List: wireless@wispa.org Subscribe/Unsubscribe: http://lists.wispa.org/mailman/listinfo/wireless Archives: http://lists.wispa.org/pipermail/wireless/ WISPA Wants You! Join today! http://signup.wispa.org/ WISPA Wireless List: wireless@wispa.org Subscribe/Unsubscribe: http://lists.wispa.org/mailman/listinfo/wireless Archives: http://lists.wispa.org/pipermail/wireless/ WISPA Wants You! Join today! http://signup.wispa.org/ WISPA Wireless List: wireless@wispa.org Subscribe/Unsubscribe: http://lists.wispa.org/mailman/listinfo/wireless Archives: http://lists.wispa.org/pipermail/wireless/
Re: [WISPA] 3650Mhz and Wimax Vendors
On Thu, Apr 23, 2009 at 10:51 AM, Patrick Leary ple...@apertonet.com wrote: Thanks for the compliment Daniel, but please God, let's not have anyone thinking they can build a 30 km radius cell with our stuff or anyone's stuff in WiMAX. I don't care if you can see your dog running away for three days it is so flat and the sun always shines and the wind is always at your back -- I know of no PMP situation where such a cell should ever be built. Patrick Leary Aperto Networks 813.426.4230 mobile Thanks Patrick. It took me a long time to get past the original snake oil mentality of WiMax proponents when they were claiming 70 megabits out 70 miles. I went through a phase of being dead set against WiMax because I thought the culture lacked integrity over all the false hype. Then I began reading the real story of what made 802.16 technology tick. The more I read the more I decided that it really is a sound technology. I eventually bought a system from Redline and have been quite happy with the results. It is nice to be able to go into my higher end business customers and tell them I can deliver more for their money through the air than cable and DSL can bring to the table. That is TRUE. The service flows capability alone make WiMax worth the extra bucks. Now fast forward to this thread. I have seen my WiMax vendor of choice bashed by another vendor rep. I have seen the same person claiming 20 to 30km sized cells in 3650 which is not a reasonable expectation. It makes me sick to my stomach. We should expect that people will act with respect and integrity on industry list servers. Let's straighten up folks. Scriv WISPA Wants You! Join today! http://signup.wispa.org/ WISPA Wireless List: wireless@wispa.org Subscribe/Unsubscribe: http://lists.wispa.org/mailman/listinfo/wireless Archives: http://lists.wispa.org/pipermail/wireless/
Re: [WISPA] 3650Mhz and Wimax Vendors
Just saying it does work... not saying I'd recommend it ;-) Daniel White 3-dB Networks http://www.3dbnetworks.com -Original Message- From: wireless-boun...@wispa.org [mailto:wireless-boun...@wispa.org] On Behalf Of Patrick Leary Sent: Thursday, April 23, 2009 10:52 AM To: WISPA General List Subject: Re: [WISPA] 3650Mhz and Wimax Vendors Thanks for the compliment Daniel, but please God, let's not have anyone thinking they can build a 30 km radius cell with our stuff or anyone's stuff in WiMAX. I don't care if you can see your dog running away for three days it is so flat and the sun always shines and the wind is always at your back -- I know of no PMP situation where such a cell should ever be built. Patrick Leary Aperto Networks 813.426.4230 mobile -Original Message- From: wireless-boun...@wispa.org [mailto:wireless-boun...@wispa.org] On Behalf Of 3-dB Networks Sent: Thursday, April 23, 2009 4:23 AM To: 'WISPA General List' Subject: Re: [WISPA] 3650Mhz and Wimax Vendors John, My boss has field tested Aperto's gear to 15miles at full modulation... so a 30km cell radius (18 miles) is possible. But the thing is that wouldn't be the average deployment... and with Cyclone gear you could push the system out that far too (because its going to be line of sight, and the cell is going to be on a mountain top probably) If the only thing you know about deploying gear is trees like the east coast... that expectation isn't going to work for you. If you live in the west where you have towers on mountaintops that can be seen from 70 miles away... its okay. My biggest problem with Jeff's analysis is how many customers signed up in a year... I don't think any WISP will grow 500 customers in 5 months. Or even 150 customers in 5 months (well I've setup a tower before and signed up that many customers to one... but that is the exception rather than the norm). The other catch would be... none of this math makes sense in a rip and replace... so unless your new... you have to rip an old system out to get WiMAX. I also have a slight issue with the assertion that Canopy does not do VoIP... it does it just fine and many Canopy WISP's also sell VoIP services (prime example... Skybeam/JAB). There also is never a 100% take rate on it (probably more like 50% tops) so that has to be factored in. With that said... besides the ugly CPE... we have chosen Aperto as our vendor of choice in the 3.65GHz band. I like it, and I think if you do field trials with it, it will win out over many of the other systems. Daniel White 3-dB Networks http://www.3dbnetworks.com -Original Message- From: wireless-boun...@wispa.org [mailto:wireless-boun...@wispa.org] On Behalf Of John Scrivner Sent: Thursday, April 23, 2009 12:13 AM To: jefftho...@fastmail.fm; WISPA General List Subject: Re: [WISPA] 3650Mhz and Wimax Vendors Cell radius= 30km The point is for a TCO, that's one tower site to cover a 20km radius, meaning less leases per month of 1k or more, so isntead of 4 tower sites to cover this area ( and pay 4k per month ) So...how are you breaking the laws of physics with this system? Unless you are serving the middle of the dessert then you probably need to back your cell radius down to say 3km. I see above you use 2 different cell radius figures. Is it possible you are overstating expectations in a big way here Jeff? I am a proponent of WiMax but I am getting sick and tired of seeing bloated specs to sell systems. It is NOT something I want to see and I feel that these false representations have hurt WiMax adoption for years. Scriv --- - WISPA Wants You! Join today! http://signup.wispa.org/ --- - WISPA Wireless List: wireless@wispa.org Subscribe/Unsubscribe: http://lists.wispa.org/mailman/listinfo/wireless Archives: http://lists.wispa.org/pipermail/wireless/ WISPA Wants You! Join today! http://signup.wispa.org/ WISPA Wireless List: wireless@wispa.org Subscribe/Unsubscribe: http://lists.wispa.org/mailman/listinfo/wireless Archives: http://lists.wispa.org/pipermail/wireless/ WISPA Wants You! Join today! http://signup.wispa.org/ WISPA Wireless List: wireless@wispa.org Subscribe/Unsubscribe: http://lists.wispa.org/mailman/listinfo/wireless Archives: http://lists.wispa.org/pipermail/wireless/ WISPA Wants You! Join today! http://signup.wispa.org/ WISPA
Re: [WISPA] 3650Mhz and Wimax Vendors
Kevin, You are correct or due a public apology. Please accept my apology for the comment regarding cash position of Redline. I and any long time players in this business know Redline to be one of the good guys in this business. They have been leaders in a number of things and have earned the respect of both operators and competitors. These are challenging times for all companies in this space. Make any list of any and all vendors large and small in this business and it is the same list as those companies feeling real pain due to this macro-economic event. Sincerely, Patrick Leary Aperto Networks 813.426.4230 mobile -Original Message- From: wireless-boun...@wispa.org [mailto:wireless-boun...@wispa.org] On Behalf Of Kevin Suitor Sent: Thursday, April 23, 2009 6:50 AM To: jefftho...@fastmail.fm; WISPA General List Subject: Re: [WISPA] 3650Mhz and Wimax Vendors Folks, I was offline yesterday so didn't see this thread until this morning. I cannot sit on my hands and not answer this libelous statement about Redline. Here are the facts: - the company is very well backed by a group of blue chip private equity investors including Matrix, USVP and GF Equity - the chairman and founder, is one of richest families in Canada, is heavily invested (largest investors in the company) and highly committed - we have $5M+ cash in the bank and have raised another $10M as announced during our last investor conference call - we had a cash flow positive Q1 and have around $20M in working capital Kevin Redline Communications Inc. Kevin Suitor Vice President, Marketing Business Development 302 Town Centre Blvd. Markham, ON L3R 0E8 CANADA o: +1 905.948.2299 f: +1 647.723.0451 m: +1 416.508.1252 Skype: ksuitor e-mail: ksui...@redlinecommunications.com Web: www.redlinecommunications.com Advancing Broadband Wireless - Putting WiMAX in Motion Think green before printing this email -Original Message- From: wireless-boun...@wispa.org [mailto:wireless-boun...@wispa.org] On Behalf Of Jeff Booher Sent: Wednesday, April 22, 2009 8:53 PM To: 'WISPA General List' Subject: Re: [WISPA] 3650Mhz and Wimax Vendors Sadly they are getting low on cash too Redline is in the same boat. -Original Message- From: wireless-boun...@wispa.org [mailto:wireless-boun...@wispa.org] On Behalf Of Pat O'Connor Sent: Wednesday, April 22, 2009 3:38 PM To: WISPA General List Subject: Re: [WISPA] 3650Mhz and Wimax Vendors Geeze. Not comforting at all. Aperto is my first choice now because I believe they use TR-069. But I wanted to see if anyone had used Airspan's Macromax product. Matt Liotta wrote: http://www.palmbeachpost.com/localnews/content/business/epaper/2009/04/20/04 20airspan.html -Matt On Apr 22, 2009, at 5:30 PM, Pat O'Connor wrote: Anybody use Airspan for Wimax? Michael Baird wrote: It was interesting, but I was hoping for some more first hand experience reporting. Essentially the only explanation for improved range was a lower noise floor, which isn't a wimax thing, but a 3.65 thing. I think a lot of the 802.16d/e talk is market speak, I'm trying to get through that and establish technical reasons why one or the other is superior. Regards Michael Baird So the recent thread on Wimax was quite interesting. I need to read up on the different technologies involved. I believe that a fixed deployment is sufficient for many many many needs and markets (wireless local loop if you will). If people want mobility/end user wireless they can hang an 802.11 AP off the ethernet port of whatever CPE. Wimax directly to the end device doesn't make much sense to me, in most markets and use cases. Obviously if you are supporting a highly mobile workforce (say public sector type stuff) then it makes a lot more sense. It got me thinking... if one was a new WISP entering an un(der)served market, it seems that it would not make sense to deploy standard 802.11 gear, but rather Wimax gear in 3650Mhz. Is this an accurate assessment? One particular area that I'm targeting, doesn't have any broadband available (other then 3g from Verzion). So they would need to purchase CPE anyway, and it wouldn't be anything they could get from Best Buy (DSL or Cable modem). I'm in the process of negotiating access to the excluded areas (in Southern California), but it's been slow going. Once I gain access it will open up many areas to some sorely needed competition. So who are the vendors in this space worth considering? What are peoples experiences with the sales process (both pre and post sales engineering) etc etc. WISPA Wants You! Join today! http://signup.wispa.org/ WISPA Wireless List: wireless@wispa.org Subscribe/Unsubscribe: http
Re: [WISPA] 3650Mhz and Wimax Vendors
On Apr 23, 2009, at 11:43 AM, Patrick Leary wrote: Matt, you said you needed to provide a reason why you did not suggest Aperto. Would it not be preferrable to provide a real reason, not something that is based on a weak deduction, e.g. Aperto issues few PRs so they must not do any business? I don't believe that is an accurate summarization. You can attack the messenger if you want, but that doesn't change the public information that exists. You may not like the conclusions I reached from anecdotal public evidence, but don't get mad at me; direct your anger to your marketing department. Of course, you could also point all of us to real 3650 Aperto deployments actively serving customers. Jeff said he had a list, but I haven't seen it, which means I can only use the public information available from Aperto PR and ULS. We are not nearly so large as my friends at Alvarion to be sure (who uses PRs sparringly, in a manner I support and respect). But we are also far different then the three small publicly-held companies under very severe financial survival diress (as in they have publicly announced they are searching for options in order to survive) who need to issue customer PRs. That is a double-edged sword you are wielding. You and Jeff are making financials of WiMAX vendors an issue. Public companies have audited financials we can all examine. Where is Aperto's financials for us to review? I'd also argue that we are right-sized for the 3650 space -- big enough to have some of the best scientific minds in WiMAX (look at our patents and role in creating the 802.16 standard), yet small enough to actually REALLY care about the business of North American WISPs, not just carriers. Again, maybe you need to talk to the marking department because your own website states, Aperto Networks is the technology leader in the most challenging segment of the WiMAX equipment market: carrier-class infrastructure. -Matt WISPA Wants You! Join today! http://signup.wispa.org/ WISPA Wireless List: wireless@wispa.org Subscribe/Unsubscribe: http://lists.wispa.org/mailman/listinfo/wireless Archives: http://lists.wispa.org/pipermail/wireless/
Re: [WISPA] 3650Mhz and Wimax Vendors
On Apr 23, 2009, at 11:48 AM, Patrick Leary wrote: That was a PR from June 2008 Matt, when few vendors even had certified product in the market for more than a month or two. Further, Manish is not even here any longer. I joined, first as a full time consultant, in October 22, 2008. Check out PRs since September when the new CEO, Brian, joined. Check them out for what? The Zing PR I mentioned before was Nov 4, 2008. There is plenty to debate here without grinding axes and manufacturing faux criticism. Bring on the real debate then. -Matt WISPA Wants You! Join today! http://signup.wispa.org/ WISPA Wireless List: wireless@wispa.org Subscribe/Unsubscribe: http://lists.wispa.org/mailman/listinfo/wireless Archives: http://lists.wispa.org/pipermail/wireless/
Re: [WISPA] 3650Mhz and Wimax Vendors
I can do almost 20 km with 5 GHz, why can't I with 3650? - Mike Hammett Intelligent Computing Solutions http://www.ics-il.com -- From: John Scrivner j...@scrivner.com Sent: Thursday, April 23, 2009 11:32 AM To: WISPA General List wireless@wispa.org Subject: Re: [WISPA] 3650Mhz and Wimax Vendors On Thu, Apr 23, 2009 at 10:51 AM, Patrick Leary ple...@apertonet.com wrote: Thanks for the compliment Daniel, but please God, let's not have anyone thinking they can build a 30 km radius cell with our stuff or anyone's stuff in WiMAX. I don't care if you can see your dog running away for three days it is so flat and the sun always shines and the wind is always at your back -- I know of no PMP situation where such a cell should ever be built. Patrick Leary Aperto Networks 813.426.4230 mobile Thanks Patrick. It took me a long time to get past the original snake oil mentality of WiMax proponents when they were claiming 70 megabits out 70 miles. I went through a phase of being dead set against WiMax because I thought the culture lacked integrity over all the false hype. Then I began reading the real story of what made 802.16 technology tick. The more I read the more I decided that it really is a sound technology. I eventually bought a system from Redline and have been quite happy with the results. It is nice to be able to go into my higher end business customers and tell them I can deliver more for their money through the air than cable and DSL can bring to the table. That is TRUE. The service flows capability alone make WiMax worth the extra bucks. Now fast forward to this thread. I have seen my WiMax vendor of choice bashed by another vendor rep. I have seen the same person claiming 20 to 30km sized cells in 3650 which is not a reasonable expectation. It makes me sick to my stomach. We should expect that people will act with respect and integrity on industry list servers. Let's straighten up folks. Scriv WISPA Wants You! Join today! http://signup.wispa.org/ WISPA Wireless List: wireless@wispa.org Subscribe/Unsubscribe: http://lists.wispa.org/mailman/listinfo/wireless Archives: http://lists.wispa.org/pipermail/wireless/ WISPA Wants You! Join today! http://signup.wispa.org/ WISPA Wireless List: wireless@wispa.org Subscribe/Unsubscribe: http://lists.wispa.org/mailman/listinfo/wireless Archives: http://lists.wispa.org/pipermail/wireless/
Re: [WISPA] 3650Mhz and Wimax Vendors
There are different constraints. In 5 GHz PTP mode we can easily deal with 20 mile+ links due to EiRP limits, but in PMP typically we see most clients within 1 - 2 km of the sector. In 3.65 GHz PMP applications we have EiRP limitations and more importantly typical deployment limitations due to OLOS and NLOS between the base station and typically, outdoor CPE. Fundamentally in PMP applications, you are trading off coverage for capacity since you want the highest possible sector capacity (typically 15 - 18 Mbps net per sector) in order to maximize your revenue opportunity. Since WiMAX uses a TDMA MAC, a QPSK modulated end customer takes 27x the sector resource of a 64QAM customer. Typically, the goal is to maximize your sector throughput and customer count per sector to maximize your ROI. That being said, if you want a PTP application a product like the MAX+ AN-80i will deliver similar reach to 5 GHz with sub 1 ms latency. Kevin -Original Message- From: wireless-boun...@wispa.org [mailto:wireless-boun...@wispa.org] On Behalf Of Mike Hammett Sent: Thursday, April 23, 2009 2:04 PM To: WISPA General List Subject: Re: [WISPA] 3650Mhz and Wimax Vendors I can do almost 20 km with 5 GHz, why can't I with 3650? - Mike Hammett Intelligent Computing Solutions http://www.ics-il.com -- From: John Scrivner j...@scrivner.com Sent: Thursday, April 23, 2009 11:32 AM To: WISPA General List wireless@wispa.org Subject: Re: [WISPA] 3650Mhz and Wimax Vendors On Thu, Apr 23, 2009 at 10:51 AM, Patrick Leary ple...@apertonet.com wrote: Thanks for the compliment Daniel, but please God, let's not have anyone thinking they can build a 30 km radius cell with our stuff or anyone's stuff in WiMAX. I don't care if you can see your dog running away for three days it is so flat and the sun always shines and the wind is always at your back -- I know of no PMP situation where such a cell should ever be built. Patrick Leary Aperto Networks 813.426.4230 mobile Thanks Patrick. It took me a long time to get past the original snake oil mentality of WiMax proponents when they were claiming 70 megabits out 70 miles. I went through a phase of being dead set against WiMax because I thought the culture lacked integrity over all the false hype. Then I began reading the real story of what made 802.16 technology tick. The more I read the more I decided that it really is a sound technology. I eventually bought a system from Redline and have been quite happy with the results. It is nice to be able to go into my higher end business customers and tell them I can deliver more for their money through the air than cable and DSL can bring to the table. That is TRUE. The service flows capability alone make WiMax worth the extra bucks. Now fast forward to this thread. I have seen my WiMax vendor of choice bashed by another vendor rep. I have seen the same person claiming 20 to 30km sized cells in 3650 which is not a reasonable expectation. It makes me sick to my stomach. We should expect that people will act with respect and integrity on industry list servers. Let's straighten up folks. Scriv WISPA Wants You! Join today! http://signup.wispa.org/ WISPA Wireless List: wireless@wispa.org Subscribe/Unsubscribe: http://lists.wispa.org/mailman/listinfo/wireless Archives: http://lists.wispa.org/pipermail/wireless/ WISPA Wants You! Join today! http://signup.wispa.org/ WISPA Wireless List: wireless@wispa.org Subscribe/Unsubscribe: http://lists.wispa.org/mailman/listinfo/wireless Archives: http://lists.wispa.org/pipermail/wireless/ WISPA Wants You! Join today! http://signup.wispa.org/ WISPA Wireless List: wireless@wispa.org Subscribe/Unsubscribe: http://lists.wispa.org/mailman/listinfo/wireless Archives: http://lists.wispa.org/pipermail/wireless/
Re: [WISPA] 3650Mhz and Wimax Vendors
I was not saying you CANNOT possibly do that distance. It was being referenced as a typical cell radius spec for discussion here and frankly that is unrealistic. I find that everyone in roughly a quarter mile radius can get our 3650 WiMax service regardless of terrain and obstacles in the way. It will penetrate a forest at that distance from my experience. Beyond that you need at least partial LOS. After about 1.5 miles radius you better have good LOS out to as far as you wish to set your timing to allow for proper ACK signaling. I think we have ours set to about 6 miles max or so. Our longest CPE connection distance is about 3/4 of a mile right now. The WiMax service runs flawlessly. We have it positioned as a top of the line service for our leased line style customers. One of them bought both leased line and WiMax from us. We nearly doubled our monthly ARPU on that one. :-) It took 3 customers to pay for our WiMax installation here with an 18 month payout. We sold those in the first 2 months. That is not too shabby! :-) Scriv On Thu, Apr 23, 2009 at 1:03 PM, Mike Hammett wispawirel...@ics-il.net wrote: I can do almost 20 km with 5 GHz, why can't I with 3650? - Mike Hammett Intelligent Computing Solutions http://www.ics-il.com -- From: John Scrivner j...@scrivner.com Sent: Thursday, April 23, 2009 11:32 AM To: WISPA General List wireless@wispa.org Subject: Re: [WISPA] 3650Mhz and Wimax Vendors On Thu, Apr 23, 2009 at 10:51 AM, Patrick Leary ple...@apertonet.com wrote: Thanks for the compliment Daniel, but please God, let's not have anyone thinking they can build a 30 km radius cell with our stuff or anyone's stuff in WiMAX. I don't care if you can see your dog running away for three days it is so flat and the sun always shines and the wind is always at your back -- I know of no PMP situation where such a cell should ever be built. Patrick Leary Aperto Networks 813.426.4230 mobile Thanks Patrick. It took me a long time to get past the original snake oil mentality of WiMax proponents when they were claiming 70 megabits out 70 miles. I went through a phase of being dead set against WiMax because I thought the culture lacked integrity over all the false hype. Then I began reading the real story of what made 802.16 technology tick. The more I read the more I decided that it really is a sound technology. I eventually bought a system from Redline and have been quite happy with the results. It is nice to be able to go into my higher end business customers and tell them I can deliver more for their money through the air than cable and DSL can bring to the table. That is TRUE. The service flows capability alone make WiMax worth the extra bucks. Now fast forward to this thread. I have seen my WiMax vendor of choice bashed by another vendor rep. I have seen the same person claiming 20 to 30km sized cells in 3650 which is not a reasonable expectation. It makes me sick to my stomach. We should expect that people will act with respect and integrity on industry list servers. Let's straighten up folks. Scriv WISPA Wants You! Join today! http://signup.wispa.org/ WISPA Wireless List: wireless@wispa.org Subscribe/Unsubscribe: http://lists.wispa.org/mailman/listinfo/wireless Archives: http://lists.wispa.org/pipermail/wireless/ WISPA Wants You! Join today! http://signup.wispa.org/ WISPA Wireless List: wireless@wispa.org Subscribe/Unsubscribe: http://lists.wispa.org/mailman/listinfo/wireless Archives: http://lists.wispa.org/pipermail/wireless/ WISPA Wants You! Join today! http://signup.wispa.org/ WISPA Wireless List: wireless@wispa.org Subscribe/Unsubscribe: http://lists.wispa.org/mailman/listinfo/wireless Archives: http://lists.wispa.org/pipermail/wireless/
Re: [WISPA] 3650Mhz and Wimax Vendors
John, Is this with diversity antennas? Chuck On Apr 23, 2009, at 4:41 PM, John Scrivner wrote: I was not saying you CANNOT possibly do that distance. It was being referenced as a typical cell radius spec for discussion here and frankly that is unrealistic. I find that everyone in roughly a quarter mile radius can get our 3650 WiMax service regardless of terrain and obstacles in the way. It will penetrate a forest at that distance from my experience. Beyond that you need at least partial LOS. After about 1.5 miles radius you better have good LOS out to as far as you wish to set your timing to allow for proper ACK signaling. I think we have ours set to about 6 miles max or so. Our longest CPE connection distance is about 3/4 of a mile right now. The WiMax service runs flawlessly. We have it positioned as a top of the line service for our leased line style customers. One of them bought both leased line and WiMax from us. We nearly doubled our monthly ARPU on that one. :-) It took 3 customers to pay for our WiMax installation here with an 18 month payout. We sold those in the first 2 months. That is not too shabby! :-) Scriv On Thu, Apr 23, 2009 at 1:03 PM, Mike Hammett wispawirel...@ics-il.net wrote: I can do almost 20 km with 5 GHz, why can't I with 3650? - Mike Hammett Intelligent Computing Solutions http://www.ics-il.com -- From: John Scrivner j...@scrivner.com Sent: Thursday, April 23, 2009 11:32 AM To: WISPA General List wireless@wispa.org Subject: Re: [WISPA] 3650Mhz and Wimax Vendors On Thu, Apr 23, 2009 at 10:51 AM, Patrick Leary ple...@apertonet.com wrote: Thanks for the compliment Daniel, but please God, let's not have anyone thinking they can build a 30 km radius cell with our stuff or anyone's stuff in WiMAX. I don't care if you can see your dog running away for three days it is so flat and the sun always shines and the wind is always at your back -- I know of no PMP situation where such a cell should ever be built. Patrick Leary Aperto Networks 813.426.4230 mobile Thanks Patrick. It took me a long time to get past the original snake oil mentality of WiMax proponents when they were claiming 70 megabits out 70 miles. I went through a phase of being dead set against WiMax because I thought the culture lacked integrity over all the false hype. Then I began reading the real story of what made 802.16 technology tick. The more I read the more I decided that it really is a sound technology. I eventually bought a system from Redline and have been quite happy with the results. It is nice to be able to go into my higher end business customers and tell them I can deliver more for their money through the air than cable and DSL can bring to the table. That is TRUE. The service flows capability alone make WiMax worth the extra bucks. Now fast forward to this thread. I have seen my WiMax vendor of choice bashed by another vendor rep. I have seen the same person claiming 20 to 30km sized cells in 3650 which is not a reasonable expectation. It makes me sick to my stomach. We should expect that people will act with respect and integrity on industry list servers. Let's straighten up folks. Scriv WISPA Wants You! Join today! http://signup.wispa.org/ WISPA Wireless List: wireless@wispa.org Subscribe/Unsubscribe: http://lists.wispa.org/mailman/listinfo/wireless Archives: http://lists.wispa.org/pipermail/wireless/ WISPA Wants You! Join today! http://signup.wispa.org/ WISPA Wireless List: wireless@wispa.org Subscribe/Unsubscribe: http://lists.wispa.org/mailman/listinfo/wireless Archives: http://lists.wispa.org/pipermail/wireless/ WISPA Wants You! Join today! http://signup.wispa.org/ WISPA Wireless List: wireless@wispa.org Subscribe/Unsubscribe: http://lists.wispa.org/mailman/listinfo/wireless Archives: http://lists.wispa.org/pipermail/wireless/ -- Chuck Bartosch Clarity Connect, Inc. 200 Pleasant Grove Road Ithaca, NY 14850 (607) 257-8268 If all is not lost, where is it? WISPA Wants You! Join today! http://signup.wispa.org/ WISPA Wireless List: wireless@wispa.org Subscribe/Unsubscribe: http://lists.wispa.org/mailman/listinfo/wireless Archives: http
[WISPA] 3650Mhz and Wimax Vendors
So the recent thread on Wimax was quite interesting. I need to read up on the different technologies involved. I believe that a fixed deployment is sufficient for many many many needs and markets (wireless local loop if you will). If people want mobility/end user wireless they can hang an 802.11 AP off the ethernet port of whatever CPE. Wimax directly to the end device doesn't make much sense to me, in most markets and use cases. Obviously if you are supporting a highly mobile workforce (say public sector type stuff) then it makes a lot more sense. It got me thinking... if one was a new WISP entering an un(der)served market, it seems that it would not make sense to deploy standard 802.11 gear, but rather Wimax gear in 3650Mhz. Is this an accurate assessment? One particular area that I'm targeting, doesn't have any broadband available (other then 3g from Verzion). So they would need to purchase CPE anyway, and it wouldn't be anything they could get from Best Buy (DSL or Cable modem). I'm in the process of negotiating access to the excluded areas (in Southern California), but it's been slow going. Once I gain access it will open up many areas to some sorely needed competition. So who are the vendors in this space worth considering? What are peoples experiences with the sales process (both pre and post sales engineering) etc etc. WISPA Wants You! Join today! http://signup.wispa.org/ WISPA Wireless List: wireless@wispa.org Subscribe/Unsubscribe: http://lists.wispa.org/mailman/listinfo/wireless Archives: http://lists.wispa.org/pipermail/wireless/
Re: [WISPA] 3650Mhz and Wimax Vendors
I'm looking for more operational experience and end user experience. Certainly good technology contributes to that, but that isn't my primary goal. Michael Baird wrote: It was interesting, but I was hoping for some more first hand experience reporting. Essentially the only explanation for improved range was a lower noise floor, which isn't a wimax thing, but a 3.65 thing. I think a lot of the 802.16d/e talk is market speak, I'm trying to get through that and establish technical reasons why one or the other is superior. Regards Michael Baird So the recent thread on Wimax was quite interesting. I need to read up on the different technologies involved. I believe that a fixed deployment is sufficient for many many many needs and markets (wireless local loop if you will). If people want mobility/end user wireless they can hang an 802.11 AP off the ethernet port of whatever CPE. Wimax directly to the end device doesn't make much sense to me, in most markets and use cases. Obviously if you are supporting a highly mobile workforce (say public sector type stuff) then it makes a lot more sense. It got me thinking... if one was a new WISP entering an un(der)served market, it seems that it would not make sense to deploy standard 802.11 gear, but rather Wimax gear in 3650Mhz. Is this an accurate assessment? One particular area that I'm targeting, doesn't have any broadband available (other then 3g from Verzion). So they would need to purchase CPE anyway, and it wouldn't be anything they could get from Best Buy (DSL or Cable modem). I'm in the process of negotiating access to the excluded areas (in Southern California), but it's been slow going. Once I gain access it will open up many areas to some sorely needed competition. So who are the vendors in this space worth considering? What are peoples experiences with the sales process (both pre and post sales engineering) etc etc. WISPA Wants You! Join today! http://signup.wispa.org/ WISPA Wireless List: wireless@wispa.org Subscribe/Unsubscribe: http://lists.wispa.org/mailman/listinfo/wireless Archives: http://lists.wispa.org/pipermail/wireless/ WISPA Wants You! Join today! http://signup.wispa.org/ WISPA Wireless List: wireless@wispa.org Subscribe/Unsubscribe: http://lists.wispa.org/mailman/listinfo/wireless Archives: http://lists.wispa.org/pipermail/wireless/ WISPA Wants You! Join today! http://signup.wispa.org/ WISPA Wireless List: wireless@wispa.org Subscribe/Unsubscribe: http://lists.wispa.org/mailman/listinfo/wireless Archives: http://lists.wispa.org/pipermail/wireless/
Re: [WISPA] 3650Mhz and Wimax Vendors
For me, personally in our area, 3650 is attractive because of the lack of noise. We are saturated with 2.4 and 5GHz here, but if I was in an area with low noise levels in 2.4 and 5Ghz, then I would not see a point in spending the extra money to deploy 3650 gear. I personally don't care that much about WiMax itself, as I tend to agree that a lot of it is marketing hype. We have a city-wide (NOT Muni) 802.11 hotspot system that generates a fair amount of revenue for us with roaming users connecting with their laptops. 3650 won't do that because I doubt we will be seeing laptops with built-in 3650 cards anytime soon (though I could be wrong). You can easily pull 10-20meg through 5.8 gear in low noise, good LOS environments. We're doing 10meg in an area that is saturated with 5.8. I'm looking at 3650 SOLELY because of our noise floor. If it wasn't for the noise, I'd keep plugging along hanging Deliberant 2.4 and 5Ghz CPE's all over the place. Ideally, what I'm moving toward is putting 3650 gear in place for my large backhauls (tower to tower) and for my high-end customers that require higher availability and are willing to pay a premium price (i.e. businesses that want to go all VoIP over a 20meg Internet connection), while maintaining my current networks with their 5Ghz and 2.4 AP locations, although much of the 5Ghz backhaul would be replaced with 3650 gear. Anyway, this is just me. I'm sure a lot of folks have different views and different opinions though, and maybe there is a purpose and need for Wimax itself, but for me, I have yet to see what the big deal is. -Original Message- From: wireless-boun...@wispa.org [mailto:wireless-boun...@wispa.org] On Behalf Of Charles Wyble Sent: Wednesday, April 22, 2009 12:08 PM To: WISPA General List Subject: [WISPA] 3650Mhz and Wimax Vendors So the recent thread on Wimax was quite interesting. I need to read up on the different technologies involved. I believe that a fixed deployment is sufficient for many many many needs and markets (wireless local loop if you will). If people want mobility/end user wireless they can hang an 802.11 AP off the ethernet port of whatever CPE. Wimax directly to the end device doesn't make much sense to me, in most markets and use cases. Obviously if you are supporting a highly mobile workforce (say public sector type stuff) then it makes a lot more sense. It got me thinking... if one was a new WISP entering an un(der)served market, it seems that it would not make sense to deploy standard 802.11 gear, but rather Wimax gear in 3650Mhz. Is this an accurate assessment? One particular area that I'm targeting, doesn't have any broadband available (other then 3g from Verzion). So they would need to purchase CPE anyway, and it wouldn't be anything they could get from Best Buy (DSL or Cable modem). I'm in the process of negotiating access to the excluded areas (in Southern California), but it's been slow going. Once I gain access it will open up many areas to some sorely needed competition. So who are the vendors in this space worth considering? What are peoples experiences with the sales process (both pre and post sales engineering) etc etc. WISPA Wants You! Join today! http://signup.wispa.org/ WISPA Wireless List: wireless@wispa.org Subscribe/Unsubscribe: http://lists.wispa.org/mailman/listinfo/wireless Archives: http://lists.wispa.org/pipermail/wireless/ WISPA Wants You! Join today! http://signup.wispa.org/ WISPA Wireless List: wireless@wispa.org Subscribe/Unsubscribe: http://lists.wispa.org/mailman/listinfo/wireless Archives: http://lists.wispa.org/pipermail/wireless/
Re: [WISPA] 3650Mhz and Wimax Vendors
It was interesting, but I was hoping for some more first hand experience reporting. Essentially the only explanation for improved range was a lower noise floor, which isn't a wimax thing, but a 3.65 thing. I think a lot of the 802.16d/e talk is market speak, I'm trying to get through that and establish technical reasons why one or the other is superior. Regards Michael Baird So the recent thread on Wimax was quite interesting. I need to read up on the different technologies involved. I believe that a fixed deployment is sufficient for many many many needs and markets (wireless local loop if you will). If people want mobility/end user wireless they can hang an 802.11 AP off the ethernet port of whatever CPE. Wimax directly to the end device doesn't make much sense to me, in most markets and use cases. Obviously if you are supporting a highly mobile workforce (say public sector type stuff) then it makes a lot more sense. It got me thinking... if one was a new WISP entering an un(der)served market, it seems that it would not make sense to deploy standard 802.11 gear, but rather Wimax gear in 3650Mhz. Is this an accurate assessment? One particular area that I'm targeting, doesn't have any broadband available (other then 3g from Verzion). So they would need to purchase CPE anyway, and it wouldn't be anything they could get from Best Buy (DSL or Cable modem). I'm in the process of negotiating access to the excluded areas (in Southern California), but it's been slow going. Once I gain access it will open up many areas to some sorely needed competition. So who are the vendors in this space worth considering? What are peoples experiences with the sales process (both pre and post sales engineering) etc etc. WISPA Wants You! Join today! http://signup.wispa.org/ WISPA Wireless List: wireless@wispa.org Subscribe/Unsubscribe: http://lists.wispa.org/mailman/listinfo/wireless Archives: http://lists.wispa.org/pipermail/wireless/ WISPA Wants You! Join today! http://signup.wispa.org/ WISPA Wireless List: wireless@wispa.org Subscribe/Unsubscribe: http://lists.wispa.org/mailman/listinfo/wireless Archives: http://lists.wispa.org/pipermail/wireless/
Re: [WISPA] 3650Mhz and Wimax Vendors
Those of us operators who actually have experience in the field with the gear tend to avoid posting to threads about WiMAX because the threads quickly devolve. I suggest you read the archives of this mailing list. To summarize though; operators who use WiMAX like it and think the technology is actually different and better than what else is out there. The people who don't use WiMAX think it is overpriced and not particularly interesting. -Matt On Apr 22, 2009, at 1:41 PM, Charles Wyble wrote: I'm looking for more operational experience and end user experience. Certainly good technology contributes to that, but that isn't my primary goal. Michael Baird wrote: It was interesting, but I was hoping for some more first hand experience reporting. Essentially the only explanation for improved range was a lower noise floor, which isn't a wimax thing, but a 3.65 thing. I think a lot of the 802.16d/e talk is market speak, I'm trying to get through that and establish technical reasons why one or the other is superior. Regards Michael Baird So the recent thread on Wimax was quite interesting. I need to read up on the different technologies involved. I believe that a fixed deployment is sufficient for many many many needs and markets (wireless local loop if you will). If people want mobility/end user wireless they can hang an 802.11 AP off the ethernet port of whatever CPE. Wimax directly to the end device doesn't make much sense to me, in most markets and use cases. Obviously if you are supporting a highly mobile workforce (say public sector type stuff) then it makes a lot more sense. It got me thinking... if one was a new WISP entering an un(der)served market, it seems that it would not make sense to deploy standard 802.11 gear, but rather Wimax gear in 3650Mhz. Is this an accurate assessment? One particular area that I'm targeting, doesn't have any broadband available (other then 3g from Verzion). So they would need to purchase CPE anyway, and it wouldn't be anything they could get from Best Buy (DSL or Cable modem). I'm in the process of negotiating access to the excluded areas (in Southern California), but it's been slow going. Once I gain access it will open up many areas to some sorely needed competition. So who are the vendors in this space worth considering? What are peoples experiences with the sales process (both pre and post sales engineering) etc etc. WISPA Wants You! Join today! http://signup.wispa.org/ WISPA Wireless List: wireless@wispa.org Subscribe/Unsubscribe: http://lists.wispa.org/mailman/listinfo/wireless Archives: http://lists.wispa.org/pipermail/wireless/ WISPA Wants You! Join today! http://signup.wispa.org/ WISPA Wireless List: wireless@wispa.org Subscribe/Unsubscribe: http://lists.wispa.org/mailman/listinfo/wireless Archives: http://lists.wispa.org/pipermail/wireless/ WISPA Wants You! Join today! http://signup.wispa.org/ WISPA Wireless List: wireless@wispa.org Subscribe/Unsubscribe: http://lists.wispa.org/mailman/listinfo/wireless Archives: http://lists.wispa.org/pipermail/wireless/ WISPA Wants You! Join today! http://signup.wispa.org/ WISPA Wireless List: wireless@wispa.org Subscribe/Unsubscribe: http://lists.wispa.org/mailman/listinfo/wireless Archives: http://lists.wispa.org/pipermail/wireless/
Re: [WISPA] 3650Mhz and Wimax Vendors
Jason Hensley wrote: For me, personally in our area, 3650 is attractive because of the lack of noise. We are saturated with 2.4 and 5GHz here, but if I was in an area with low noise levels in 2.4 and 5Ghz, then I would not see a point in spending the extra money to deploy 3650 gear. I personally don't care that much about WiMax itself, as I tend to agree that a lot of it is marketing hype. We have a city-wide (NOT Muni) 802.11 hotspot system that generates a fair amount of revenue for us with roaming users connecting with their laptops. 3650 won't do that because I doubt we will be seeing laptops with built-in 3650 cards anytime soon (though I could be wrong). This is why I specifically mentioned a fixed base use case, and hanging an 802.11 access point off the CPE. :) Also Intel has a Wimax card now. What is the cost difference between the 802.11 gear and Wimax gear? You can easily pull 10-20meg through 5.8 gear in low noise, good LOS environments. Southern California doesn't have a lot of those environments. :) We're doing 10meg in an area that is saturated with 5.8. I'm looking at 3650 SOLELY because of our noise floor. If it wasn't for the noise, I'd keep plugging along hanging Deliberant 2.4 and 5Ghz CPE's all over the place. Interesting. I'll investigate that vendor. Ideally, what I'm moving toward is putting 3650 gear in place for my large backhauls (tower to tower) and for my high-end customers that require higher availability and are willing to pay a premium price (i.e. businesses that want to go all VoIP over a 20meg Internet connection), Right. Wireless local loop. Charge a few hundred per month and provide dedicated band width. while maintaining my current networks with their 5Ghz and 2.4 AP locations, although much of the 5Ghz backhaul would be replaced with 3650 gear. Makes sense. What vendors are you considering? What vendors are giving you horrors? Anyway, this is just me. I'm sure a lot of folks have different views and different opinions though, and maybe there is a purpose and need for Wimax itself, but for me, I have yet to see what the big deal is. WISPA Wants You! Join today! http://signup.wispa.org/ WISPA Wireless List: wireless@wispa.org Subscribe/Unsubscribe: http://lists.wispa.org/mailman/listinfo/wireless Archives: http://lists.wispa.org/pipermail/wireless/
Re: [WISPA] 3650Mhz and Wimax Vendors
Matt, I appreciate your perspective, but I've already read through the archives and with Wimax technology what was valid yesterday might not be valid today. I'm not interested in a holy war, we are certainly going to deploy Wimax in the near future, I just want to set expectations properly before we are mounting the gear on the tower, and reading marketing info from Alverion/Tranzeo/Aperto certainly doesn't help clear up the differences and advantages to the technology. Regards Michael Baird Those of us operators who actually have experience in the field with the gear tend to avoid posting to threads about WiMAX because the threads quickly devolve. I suggest you read the archives of this mailing list. To summarize though; operators who use WiMAX like it and think the technology is actually different and better than what else is out there. The people who don't use WiMAX think it is overpriced and not particularly interesting. -Matt On Apr 22, 2009, at 1:41 PM, Charles Wyble wrote: I'm looking for more operational experience and end user experience. Certainly good technology contributes to that, but that isn't my primary goal. Michael Baird wrote: It was interesting, but I was hoping for some more first hand experience reporting. Essentially the only explanation for improved range was a lower noise floor, which isn't a wimax thing, but a 3.65 thing. I think a lot of the 802.16d/e talk is market speak, I'm trying to get through that and establish technical reasons why one or the other is superior. Regards Michael Baird So the recent thread on Wimax was quite interesting. I need to read up on the different technologies involved. I believe that a fixed deployment is sufficient for many many many needs and markets (wireless local loop if you will). If people want mobility/end user wireless they can hang an 802.11 AP off the ethernet port of whatever CPE. Wimax directly to the end device doesn't make much sense to me, in most markets and use cases. Obviously if you are supporting a highly mobile workforce (say public sector type stuff) then it makes a lot more sense. It got me thinking... if one was a new WISP entering an un(der)served market, it seems that it would not make sense to deploy standard 802.11 gear, but rather Wimax gear in 3650Mhz. Is this an accurate assessment? One particular area that I'm targeting, doesn't have any broadband available (other then 3g from Verzion). So they would need to purchase CPE anyway, and it wouldn't be anything they could get from Best Buy (DSL or Cable modem). I'm in the process of negotiating access to the excluded areas (in Southern California), but it's been slow going. Once I gain access it will open up many areas to some sorely needed competition. So who are the vendors in this space worth considering? What are peoples experiences with the sales process (both pre and post sales engineering) etc etc. WISPA Wants You! Join today! http://signup.wispa.org/ WISPA Wireless List: wireless@wispa.org Subscribe/Unsubscribe: http://lists.wispa.org/mailman/listinfo/wireless Archives: http://lists.wispa.org/pipermail/wireless/ WISPA Wants You! Join today! http://signup.wispa.org/ WISPA Wireless List: wireless@wispa.org Subscribe/Unsubscribe: http://lists.wispa.org/mailman/listinfo/wireless Archives: http://lists.wispa.org/pipermail/wireless/ WISPA Wants You! Join today! http://signup.wispa.org/ WISPA Wireless List: wireless@wispa.org Subscribe/Unsubscribe: http://lists.wispa.org/mailman/listinfo/wireless Archives: http://lists.wispa.org/pipermail/wireless/ WISPA Wants You! Join today! http://signup.wispa.org/ WISPA Wireless List: wireless@wispa.org Subscribe/Unsubscribe: http://lists.wispa.org/mailman/listinfo/wireless Archives: http://lists.wispa.org/pipermail/wireless/ WISPA Wants You! Join today! http://signup.wispa.org/ WISPA Wireless List: wireless@wispa.org Subscribe/Unsubscribe: http://lists.wispa.org/mailman/listinfo/wireless Archives:
Re: [WISPA] 3650Mhz and Wimax Vendors
Yes. I know. Which is why I asked very specific questions. I don't really care about the technology involved and am not looking for information on it. I'm asking for vendor recommendations and WISP experiences from people that have actually deployed Wimax in the 3650Mhz space. The area I'm looking to serve wouldn't be cost effective to serve via Wifi. Matt Liotta wrote: Those of us operators who actually have experience in the field with the gear tend to avoid posting to threads about WiMAX because the threads quickly devolve. I suggest you read the archives of this mailing list. To summarize though; operators who use WiMAX like it and think the technology is actually different and better than what else is out there. The people who don't use WiMAX think it is overpriced and not particularly interesting. -Matt On Apr 22, 2009, at 1:41 PM, Charles Wyble wrote: I'm looking for more operational experience and end user experience. Certainly good technology contributes to that, but that isn't my primary goal. Michael Baird wrote: It was interesting, but I was hoping for some more first hand experience reporting. Essentially the only explanation for improved range was a lower noise floor, which isn't a wimax thing, but a 3.65 thing. I think a lot of the 802.16d/e talk is market speak, I'm trying to get through that and establish technical reasons why one or the other is superior. Regards Michael Baird So the recent thread on Wimax was quite interesting. I need to read up on the different technologies involved. I believe that a fixed deployment is sufficient for many many many needs and markets (wireless local loop if you will). If people want mobility/end user wireless they can hang an 802.11 AP off the ethernet port of whatever CPE. Wimax directly to the end device doesn't make much sense to me, in most markets and use cases. Obviously if you are supporting a highly mobile workforce (say public sector type stuff) then it makes a lot more sense. It got me thinking... if one was a new WISP entering an un(der)served market, it seems that it would not make sense to deploy standard 802.11 gear, but rather Wimax gear in 3650Mhz. Is this an accurate assessment? One particular area that I'm targeting, doesn't have any broadband available (other then 3g from Verzion). So they would need to purchase CPE anyway, and it wouldn't be anything they could get from Best Buy (DSL or Cable modem). I'm in the process of negotiating access to the excluded areas (in Southern California), but it's been slow going. Once I gain access it will open up many areas to some sorely needed competition. So who are the vendors in this space worth considering? What are peoples experiences with the sales process (both pre and post sales engineering) etc etc. WISPA Wants You! Join today! http://signup.wispa.org/ WISPA Wireless List: wireless@wispa.org Subscribe/Unsubscribe: http://lists.wispa.org/mailman/listinfo/wireless Archives: http://lists.wispa.org/pipermail/wireless/ WISPA Wants You! Join today! http://signup.wispa.org/ WISPA Wireless List: wireless@wispa.org Subscribe/Unsubscribe: http://lists.wispa.org/mailman/listinfo/wireless Archives: http://lists.wispa.org/pipermail/wireless/ WISPA Wants You! Join today! http://signup.wispa.org/ WISPA Wireless List: wireless@wispa.org Subscribe/Unsubscribe: http://lists.wispa.org/mailman/listinfo/wireless Archives: http://lists.wispa.org/pipermail/wireless/ WISPA Wants You! Join today! http://signup.wispa.org/ WISPA Wireless List: wireless@wispa.org Subscribe/Unsubscribe: http://lists.wispa.org/mailman/listinfo/wireless Archives: http://lists.wispa.org/pipermail/wireless/ WISPA Wants You! Join today! http://signup.wispa.org/ WISPA Wireless List: wireless@wispa.org Subscribe/Unsubscribe: http://lists.wispa.org/mailman/listinfo/wireless Archives: http://lists.wispa.org/pipermail/wireless/
Re: [WISPA] 3650Mhz and Wimax Vendors
What he said. :) Seriously I'm interested in actual experiences. Not moans and gripes and arm chair speculation. I'm very interested in deploying Wimax technology and want real world information and actual operator feedback. Michael Baird wrote: Matt, I appreciate your perspective, but I've already read through the archives and with Wimax technology what was valid yesterday might not be valid today. I'm not interested in a holy war, we are certainly going to deploy Wimax in the near future, I just want to set expectations properly before we are mounting the gear on the tower, and reading marketing info from Alverion/Tranzeo/Aperto certainly doesn't help clear up the differences and advantages to the technology. Regards Michael Baird Those of us operators who actually have experience in the field with the gear tend to avoid posting to threads about WiMAX because the threads quickly devolve. I suggest you read the archives of this mailing list. To summarize though; operators who use WiMAX like it and think the technology is actually different and better than what else is out there. The people who don't use WiMAX think it is overpriced and not particularly interesting. -Matt On Apr 22, 2009, at 1:41 PM, Charles Wyble wrote: I'm looking for more operational experience and end user experience. Certainly good technology contributes to that, but that isn't my primary goal. Michael Baird wrote: It was interesting, but I was hoping for some more first hand experience reporting. Essentially the only explanation for improved range was a lower noise floor, which isn't a wimax thing, but a 3.65 thing. I think a lot of the 802.16d/e talk is market speak, I'm trying to get through that and establish technical reasons why one or the other is superior. Regards Michael Baird So the recent thread on Wimax was quite interesting. I need to read up on the different technologies involved. I believe that a fixed deployment is sufficient for many many many needs and markets (wireless local loop if you will). If people want mobility/end user wireless they can hang an 802.11 AP off the ethernet port of whatever CPE. Wimax directly to the end device doesn't make much sense to me, in most markets and use cases. Obviously if you are supporting a highly mobile workforce (say public sector type stuff) then it makes a lot more sense. It got me thinking... if one was a new WISP entering an un(der)served market, it seems that it would not make sense to deploy standard 802.11 gear, but rather Wimax gear in 3650Mhz. Is this an accurate assessment? One particular area that I'm targeting, doesn't have any broadband available (other then 3g from Verzion). So they would need to purchase CPE anyway, and it wouldn't be anything they could get from Best Buy (DSL or Cable modem). I'm in the process of negotiating access to the excluded areas (in Southern California), but it's been slow going. Once I gain access it will open up many areas to some sorely needed competition. So who are the vendors in this space worth considering? What are peoples experiences with the sales process (both pre and post sales engineering) etc etc. WISPA Wants You! Join today! http://signup.wispa.org/ WISPA Wireless List: wireless@wispa.org Subscribe/Unsubscribe: http://lists.wispa.org/mailman/listinfo/wireless Archives: http://lists.wispa.org/pipermail/wireless/ WISPA Wants You! Join today! http://signup.wispa.org/ WISPA Wireless List: wireless@wispa.org Subscribe/Unsubscribe: http://lists.wispa.org/mailman/listinfo/wireless Archives: http://lists.wispa.org/pipermail/wireless/ WISPA Wants You! Join today! http://signup.wispa.org/ WISPA Wireless List: wireless@wispa.org Subscribe/Unsubscribe: http://lists.wispa.org/mailman/listinfo/wireless Archives: http://lists.wispa.org/pipermail/wireless/ WISPA Wants You! Join today! http://signup.wispa.org/ WISPA Wireless List: wireless@wispa.org Subscribe/Unsubscribe: http://lists.wispa.org/mailman/listinfo/wireless Archives: http://lists.wispa.org/pipermail/wireless/ WISPA Wants
Re: [WISPA] 3650Mhz and Wimax Vendors
Aperto, Alvarion, and Redline seem to be the market leaders. I would check out each solution, performance and price though they will all be pretty close (I have some experience with Aperto... but since I sell Aperto I'm not going to blab on and on why I think its best since you're looking for other operators experience). With that said, I think you would be making a mistake using 3.65GHz for residential subscriber access in rural areas. Unlicensed spectrum would probably be just fine for it (regardless of what vendor you choose...) If throughput is your major concern... hold off for the Canopy 430 series at the end of the year... that is going to give you 42Mbps in a 20MHz channel in 5.8GHz. If licensed spectrum is your primary concern... 3.65 will do it but your really going to pay for it Daniel White 3-dB Networks http://www.3dbnetworks.com -Original Message- From: wireless-boun...@wispa.org [mailto:wireless-boun...@wispa.org] On Behalf Of Charles Wyble Sent: Wednesday, April 22, 2009 12:08 PM To: WISPA General List Subject: [WISPA] 3650Mhz and Wimax Vendors So the recent thread on Wimax was quite interesting. I need to read up on the different technologies involved. I believe that a fixed deployment is sufficient for many many many needs and markets (wireless local loop if you will). If people want mobility/end user wireless they can hang an 802.11 AP off the ethernet port of whatever CPE. Wimax directly to the end device doesn't make much sense to me, in most markets and use cases. Obviously if you are supporting a highly mobile workforce (say public sector type stuff) then it makes a lot more sense. It got me thinking... if one was a new WISP entering an un(der)served market, it seems that it would not make sense to deploy standard 802.11 gear, but rather Wimax gear in 3650Mhz. Is this an accurate assessment? One particular area that I'm targeting, doesn't have any broadband available (other then 3g from Verzion). So they would need to purchase CPE anyway, and it wouldn't be anything they could get from Best Buy (DSL or Cable modem). I'm in the process of negotiating access to the excluded areas (in Southern California), but it's been slow going. Once I gain access it will open up many areas to some sorely needed competition. So who are the vendors in this space worth considering? What are peoples experiences with the sales process (both pre and post sales engineering) etc etc. WISPA Wants You! Join today! http://signup.wispa.org/ WISPA Wireless List: wireless@wispa.org Subscribe/Unsubscribe: http://lists.wispa.org/mailman/listinfo/wireless Archives: http://lists.wispa.org/pipermail/wireless/ WISPA Wants You! Join today! http://signup.wispa.org/ WISPA Wireless List: wireless@wispa.org Subscribe/Unsubscribe: http://lists.wispa.org/mailman/listinfo/wireless Archives: http://lists.wispa.org/pipermail/wireless/
Re: [WISPA] 3650Mhz and Wimax Vendors
There will be as many opinions as there are vendors, but I contend that 802.16d is the better WiMAX standard for 3.65 GHz. There will be no mobile in 3.65 GHz; the power limits available for mobile under the rules simply are not workable at all. Going to .16e route does allow you access to 4x MIMO, but that is too expensive for 3.65 since it intended and priced for mobile -- $60k or more in CAPEX for one cell is way too much for the WISP world. Consider that with 802.16d, you can buy a complete 3 sector, almost 60 mbps cell with all pieces and parts for under $20k (at least from us). You can use some 2x MIMO and that will improve your range somewhat over no MIMO, but at what cost? Single order diversity will still get you many miles radius of coverage per cell and you'll save at least 1/2 the cost vs. the same capacity in 2X and much less still compared to 4X. 802.16d also provides for lower latency (since it is not designed to keep track of mobile clients it has less overhead) and larger channel sizes. In the end, both standards are legit; they are simply intended to do different things. The old rule of buying the right tool for the job is the classic saying that comes to mind. Patrick Leary Aperto Networks 813.426.4230 mobile -Original Message- From: wireless-boun...@wispa.org [mailto:wireless-boun...@wispa.org] On Behalf Of Michael Baird Sent: Wednesday, April 22, 2009 10:26 AM To: WISPA General List Subject: Re: [WISPA] 3650Mhz and Wimax Vendors It was interesting, but I was hoping for some more first hand experience reporting. Essentially the only explanation for improved range was a lower noise floor, which isn't a wimax thing, but a 3.65 thing. I think a lot of the 802.16d/e talk is market speak, I'm trying to get through that and establish technical reasons why one or the other is superior. Regards Michael Baird So the recent thread on Wimax was quite interesting. I need to read up on the different technologies involved. I believe that a fixed deployment is sufficient for many many many needs and markets (wireless local loop if you will). If people want mobility/end user wireless they can hang an 802.11 AP off the ethernet port of whatever CPE. Wimax directly to the end device doesn't make much sense to me, in most markets and use cases. Obviously if you are supporting a highly mobile workforce (say public sector type stuff) then it makes a lot more sense. It got me thinking... if one was a new WISP entering an un(der)served market, it seems that it would not make sense to deploy standard 802.11 gear, but rather Wimax gear in 3650Mhz. Is this an accurate assessment? One particular area that I'm targeting, doesn't have any broadband available (other then 3g from Verzion). So they would need to purchase CPE anyway, and it wouldn't be anything they could get from Best Buy (DSL or Cable modem). I'm in the process of negotiating access to the excluded areas (in Southern California), but it's been slow going. Once I gain access it will open up many areas to some sorely needed competition. So who are the vendors in this space worth considering? What are peoples experiences with the sales process (both pre and post sales engineering) etc etc. WISPA Wants You! Join today! http://signup.wispa.org/ WISPA Wireless List: wireless@wispa.org Subscribe/Unsubscribe: http://lists.wispa.org/mailman/listinfo/wireless Archives: http://lists.wispa.org/pipermail/wireless/ WISPA Wants You! Join today! http://signup.wispa.org/ WISPA Wireless List: wireless@wispa.org Subscribe/Unsubscribe: http://lists.wispa.org/mailman/listinfo/wireless Archives: http://lists.wispa.org/pipermail/wireless/ WISPA Wants You! Join today! http://signup.wispa.org/ WISPA Wireless List: wireless@wispa.org Subscribe/Unsubscribe: http://lists.wispa.org/mailman/listinfo/wireless Archives: http://lists.wispa.org/pipermail/wireless/
Re: [WISPA] 3650Mhz and Wimax Vendors
We're also looking to deploy Wimax at a couple of our tower locations to provide higher bandwidth to business customers and take a load off some of our 900 APs. One vendor we are looking at is Vecima Networks. Anyone out there using VistaMAX 3.65 GHz from Vecima. I would be very interested in some real world experiences with this vendor. Pro and cons... Thanks in Advance Chris What he said. :) Seriously I'm interested in actual experiences. Not moans and gripes and arm chair speculation. I'm very interested in deploying Wimax technology and want real world information and actual operator feedback. Michael Baird wrote: Matt, I appreciate your perspective, but I've already read through the archives and with Wimax technology what was valid yesterday might not be valid today. I'm not interested in a holy war, we are certainly going to deploy Wimax in the near future, I just want to set expectations properly before we are mounting the gear on the tower, and reading marketing info from Alverion/Tranzeo/Aperto certainly doesn't help clear up the differences and advantages to the technology. Regards Michael Baird Those of us operators who actually have experience in the field with the gear tend to avoid posting to threads about WiMAX because the threads quickly devolve. I suggest you read the archives of this mailing list. To summarize though; operators who use WiMAX like it and think the technology is actually different and better than what else is out there. The people who don't use WiMAX think it is overpriced and not particularly interesting. -Matt On Apr 22, 2009, at 1:41 PM, Charles Wyble wrote: I'm looking for more operational experience and end user experience. Certainly good technology contributes to that, but that isn't my primary goal. Michael Baird wrote: It was interesting, but I was hoping for some more first hand experience reporting. Essentially the only explanation for improved range was a lower noise floor, which isn't a wimax thing, but a 3.65 thing. I think a lot of the 802.16d/e talk is market speak, I'm trying to get through that and establish technical reasons why one or the other is superior. Regards Michael Baird So the recent thread on Wimax was quite interesting. I need to read up on the different technologies involved. I believe that a fixed deployment is sufficient for many many many needs and markets (wireless local loop if you will). If people want mobility/end user wireless they can hang an 802.11 AP off the ethernet port of whatever CPE. Wimax directly to the end device doesn't make much sense to me, in most markets and use cases. Obviously if you are supporting a highly mobile workforce (say public sector type stuff) then it makes a lot more sense. It got me thinking... if one was a new WISP entering an un(der)served market, it seems that it would not make sense to deploy standard 802.11 gear, but rather Wimax gear in 3650Mhz. Is this an accurate assessment? One particular area that I'm targeting, doesn't have any broadband available (other then 3g from Verzion). So they would need to purchase CPE anyway, and it wouldn't be anything they could get from Best Buy (DSL or Cable modem). I'm in the process of negotiating access to the excluded areas (in Southern California), but it's been slow going. Once I gain access it will open up many areas to some sorely needed competition. So who are the vendors in this space worth considering? What are peoples experiences with the sales process (both pre and post sales engineering) etc etc. WISPA Wants You! Join today! http://signup.wispa.org/ WISPA Wireless List: wireless@wispa.org Subscribe/Unsubscribe: http://lists.wispa.org/mailman/listinfo/wireless Archives: http://lists.wispa.org/pipermail/wireless/ WISPA Wants You! Join today! http://signup.wispa.org/ WISPA Wireless List: wireless@wispa.org Subscribe/Unsubscribe: http://lists.wispa.org/mailman/listinfo/wireless Archives: http://lists.wispa.org/pipermail/wireless/ WISPA Wants You! Join today! http://signup.wispa.org/ WISPA Wireless List: wireless@wispa.org Subscribe/Unsubscribe: http://lists.wispa.org/mailman/listinfo/wireless Archives: http://lists.wispa.org/pipermail/wireless/ WISPA Wants You! Join
Re: [WISPA] 3650Mhz and Wimax Vendors
WiMAX relationships tend to be self-limiting. The good vendors are expensive and as such their customers tend to be more capable. In capable; I mean the operator has done thorough evaluations including field trials of equipment from various vendors. Developed a business plan specifically for the equipment they have selected and the market for which they plan to deploy it. Shared this business plan with the same vendor and have gotten a positive response from all before they deploy the first customer. The above is different from how most WISPs approach WiMAX. Specifically, WISPs tend to already have existing customers, networks, etc and a working business model. These WISPs tend to be looking for new technology that solves specific problems for their existing customers or allows them to better execute their existing business plan. Generally, these WISPs find that WiMAX technology fails in that regard. If you are up for what I mentioned in the first paragraph then I would suggest taking a look at Redline and Alvarion. Both vendors will likely recommend deploying their gear in a fixed architecture using 3650Mhz. You will want to understand how Redline's use of 802.16d with uplink subchannelization compares to Alvarion's use of 802.16e with diversity and how that affects your ability to deliver a specific amount of throughput to your target market. If you are more in the situation that I mentioned in the second paragraph then I would suggest taking a look at Aperto and Tranzeo. My personal recommendation would be for Redline. That is the vendor we selected and have deployed. I would also recommend that you only consider WiMAX for deployments where differentiated services are a core part of your business plan. Without differentiated services I fear WiMAX may never make sense. -Matt On Apr 22, 2009, at 2:07 PM, Charles Wyble wrote: Yes. I know. Which is why I asked very specific questions. I don't really care about the technology involved and am not looking for information on it. I'm asking for vendor recommendations and WISP experiences from people that have actually deployed Wimax in the 3650Mhz space. The area I'm looking to serve wouldn't be cost effective to serve via Wifi. Matt Liotta wrote: Those of us operators who actually have experience in the field with the gear tend to avoid posting to threads about WiMAX because the threads quickly devolve. I suggest you read the archives of this mailing list. To summarize though; operators who use WiMAX like it and think the technology is actually different and better than what else is out there. The people who don't use WiMAX think it is overpriced and not particularly interesting. -Matt On Apr 22, 2009, at 1:41 PM, Charles Wyble wrote: I'm looking for more operational experience and end user experience. Certainly good technology contributes to that, but that isn't my primary goal. Michael Baird wrote: It was interesting, but I was hoping for some more first hand experience reporting. Essentially the only explanation for improved range was a lower noise floor, which isn't a wimax thing, but a 3.65 thing. I think a lot of the 802.16d/e talk is market speak, I'm trying to get through that and establish technical reasons why one or the other is superior. Regards Michael Baird So the recent thread on Wimax was quite interesting. I need to read up on the different technologies involved. I believe that a fixed deployment is sufficient for many many many needs and markets (wireless local loop if you will). If people want mobility/end user wireless they can hang an 802.11 AP off the ethernet port of whatever CPE. Wimax directly to the end device doesn't make much sense to me, in most markets and use cases. Obviously if you are supporting a highly mobile workforce (say public sector type stuff) then it makes a lot more sense. It got me thinking... if one was a new WISP entering an un(der)served market, it seems that it would not make sense to deploy standard 802.11 gear, but rather Wimax gear in 3650Mhz. Is this an accurate assessment? One particular area that I'm targeting, doesn't have any broadband available (other then 3g from Verzion). So they would need to purchase CPE anyway, and it wouldn't be anything they could get from Best Buy (DSL or Cable modem). I'm in the process of negotiating access to the excluded areas (in Southern California), but it's been slow going. Once I gain access it will open up many areas to some sorely needed competition. So who are the vendors in this space worth considering? What are peoples experiences with the sales process (both pre and post sales engineering) etc etc. WISPA Wants You! Join today! http://signup.wispa.org/ WISPA
Re: [WISPA] 3650Mhz and Wimax Vendors
Matt, How does what you say in the first paragraph make Aperto not viable? Daniel White 3-dB Networks http://www.3dbnetworks.com -Original Message- From: wireless-boun...@wispa.org [mailto:wireless-boun...@wispa.org] On Behalf Of Matt Liotta Sent: Wednesday, April 22, 2009 2:04 PM To: WISPA General List Subject: Re: [WISPA] 3650Mhz and Wimax Vendors WiMAX relationships tend to be self-limiting. The good vendors are expensive and as such their customers tend to be more capable. In capable; I mean the operator has done thorough evaluations including field trials of equipment from various vendors. Developed a business plan specifically for the equipment they have selected and the market for which they plan to deploy it. Shared this business plan with the same vendor and have gotten a positive response from all before they deploy the first customer. The above is different from how most WISPs approach WiMAX. Specifically, WISPs tend to already have existing customers, networks, etc and a working business model. These WISPs tend to be looking for new technology that solves specific problems for their existing customers or allows them to better execute their existing business plan. Generally, these WISPs find that WiMAX technology fails in that regard. If you are up for what I mentioned in the first paragraph then I would suggest taking a look at Redline and Alvarion. Both vendors will likely recommend deploying their gear in a fixed architecture using 3650Mhz. You will want to understand how Redline's use of 802.16d with uplink subchannelization compares to Alvarion's use of 802.16e with diversity and how that affects your ability to deliver a specific amount of throughput to your target market. If you are more in the situation that I mentioned in the second paragraph then I would suggest taking a look at Aperto and Tranzeo. My personal recommendation would be for Redline. That is the vendor we selected and have deployed. I would also recommend that you only consider WiMAX for deployments where differentiated services are a core part of your business plan. Without differentiated services I fear WiMAX may never make sense. -Matt On Apr 22, 2009, at 2:07 PM, Charles Wyble wrote: Yes. I know. Which is why I asked very specific questions. I don't really care about the technology involved and am not looking for information on it. I'm asking for vendor recommendations and WISP experiences from people that have actually deployed Wimax in the 3650Mhz space. The area I'm looking to serve wouldn't be cost effective to serve via Wifi. Matt Liotta wrote: Those of us operators who actually have experience in the field with the gear tend to avoid posting to threads about WiMAX because the threads quickly devolve. I suggest you read the archives of this mailing list. To summarize though; operators who use WiMAX like it and think the technology is actually different and better than what else is out there. The people who don't use WiMAX think it is overpriced and not particularly interesting. -Matt On Apr 22, 2009, at 1:41 PM, Charles Wyble wrote: I'm looking for more operational experience and end user experience. Certainly good technology contributes to that, but that isn't my primary goal. Michael Baird wrote: It was interesting, but I was hoping for some more first hand experience reporting. Essentially the only explanation for improved range was a lower noise floor, which isn't a wimax thing, but a 3.65 thing. I think a lot of the 802.16d/e talk is market speak, I'm trying to get through that and establish technical reasons why one or the other is superior. Regards Michael Baird So the recent thread on Wimax was quite interesting. I need to read up on the different technologies involved. I believe that a fixed deployment is sufficient for many many many needs and markets (wireless local loop if you will). If people want mobility/end user wireless they can hang an 802.11 AP off the ethernet port of whatever CPE. Wimax directly to the end device doesn't make much sense to me, in most markets and use cases. Obviously if you are supporting a highly mobile workforce (say public sector type stuff) then it makes a lot more sense. It got me thinking... if one was a new WISP entering an un(der)served market, it seems that it would not make sense to deploy standard 802.11 gear, but rather Wimax gear in 3650Mhz. Is this an accurate assessment? One particular area that I'm targeting, doesn't have any broadband available (other then 3g from Verzion). So they would need to purchase CPE anyway, and it wouldn't be anything they could get from Best Buy (DSL or Cable modem). I'm in the process of negotiating access to the excluded areas (in Southern California), but it's been slow going. Once I gain access it will open up many areas to some sorely needed competition. So who are the vendors in this space worth considering? What are peoples
Re: [WISPA] 3650Mhz and Wimax Vendors
On Apr 22, 2009, at 3:17 PM, 3-dB Networks wrote: Matt, How does what you say in the first paragraph make Aperto not viable? I don't think anything from my first paragraph makes Aperto not viable. I am not sure I even like the term viable. I wouldn't suggest Aperto or recommend them as a WiMAX vendor. Of course, I don't have any direct experience with Aperto's current product line. Therefore, I can't compare and contrast their offerings to other WiMAX vendors that I do have experience with. Anecdotical evidence suggests that Aperto is not widely deployed. According to Aperto's press releases I only see one company mentioned that has deployed their WiMAX gear in the US. I don't know much about Zing to which the press release mentions. What I do know is that according to ULS they have only been approved to deploy a single Aperto radio. Further, at WiMAX World last year it seemed that Zing's CTO was employed by Aperto in sales. Compare this to Redline and Alvarion, which have lots of approved radios in ULS and multiple US customers including some large customers. -Matt WISPA Wants You! Join today! http://signup.wispa.org/ WISPA Wireless List: wireless@wispa.org Subscribe/Unsubscribe: http://lists.wispa.org/mailman/listinfo/wireless Archives: http://lists.wispa.org/pipermail/wireless/
Re: [WISPA] 3650Mhz and Wimax Vendors
We have quite a few live Aperto networks being deployed with residential and/or business services. I am not going to speak for the deployment of Aperto gear over the entire U.S. but I can say they are out there. -Jeff CTI There is a Difference -Original Message- From: wireless-boun...@wispa.org [mailto:wireless-boun...@wispa.org] On Behalf Of Matt Liotta Sent: Wednesday, April 22, 2009 2:54 PM To: WISPA General List Subject: Re: [WISPA] 3650Mhz and Wimax Vendors On Apr 22, 2009, at 3:17 PM, 3-dB Networks wrote: Matt, How does what you say in the first paragraph make Aperto not viable? I don't think anything from my first paragraph makes Aperto not viable. I am not sure I even like the term viable. I wouldn't suggest Aperto or recommend them as a WiMAX vendor. Of course, I don't have any direct experience with Aperto's current product line. Therefore, I can't compare and contrast their offerings to other WiMAX vendors that I do have experience with. Anecdotical evidence suggests that Aperto is not widely deployed. According to Aperto's press releases I only see one company mentioned that has deployed their WiMAX gear in the US. I don't know much about Zing to which the press release mentions. What I do know is that according to ULS they have only been approved to deploy a single Aperto radio. Further, at WiMAX World last year it seemed that Zing's CTO was employed by Aperto in sales. Compare this to Redline and Alvarion, which have lots of approved radios in ULS and multiple US customers including some large customers. -Matt WISPA Wants You! Join today! http://signup.wispa.org/ WISPA Wireless List: wireless@wispa.org Subscribe/Unsubscribe: http://lists.wispa.org/mailman/listinfo/wireless Archives: http://lists.wispa.org/pipermail/wireless/ WISPA Wants You! Join today! http://signup.wispa.org/ WISPA Wireless List: wireless@wispa.org Subscribe/Unsubscribe: http://lists.wispa.org/mailman/listinfo/wireless Archives: http://lists.wispa.org/pipermail/wireless/
Re: [WISPA] 3650Mhz and Wimax Vendors
On Wed, 2009-04-22 at 14:01 -0400, Matt Liotta wrote: Those of us operators who actually have experience in the field with the gear tend to avoid posting to threads about WiMAX because the threads quickly devolve. I suggest you read the archives of this mailing list. To summarize though; operators who use WiMAX like it and think the technology is actually different and better than what else is out there. The people who don't use WiMAX think it is overpriced and not particularly interesting. WiMAX obviously has some things to offer. It was written specifically as an outdoor wireless specification. I think your summarization is a little short of the truth, though. It would be nice, IMO, if you, as an operator who acutally [has] experience in the field with the gear would at least answer the question instead of sitting on a high-horse. -- * Butch Evans * Professional Network Consultation* * http://www.butchevans.com/* Network Engineering * * http://www.wispa.org/ * WISPA Board Member * * http://blog.butchevans.com/ * Wired or Wireless Networks * WISPA Wants You! Join today! http://signup.wispa.org/ WISPA Wireless List: wireless@wispa.org Subscribe/Unsubscribe: http://lists.wispa.org/mailman/listinfo/wireless Archives: http://lists.wispa.org/pipermail/wireless/
Re: [WISPA] 3650Mhz and Wimax Vendors
On Wed, 2009-04-22 at 15:03 -0400, Matt Liotta wrote: My personal recommendation would be for Redline. That is the vendor we selected and have deployed. I would also recommend that you only consider WiMAX for deployments where differentiated services are a core part of your business plan. Without differentiated services I fear WiMAX may never make sense. Matt, I apologize for the earlier post regarding your response in this thread. This post was certainly one that is helpful and addresses the questions that started the thread. -- * Butch Evans * Professional Network Consultation* * http://www.butchevans.com/* Network Engineering * * http://www.wispa.org/ * WISPA Board Member * * http://blog.butchevans.com/ * Wired or Wireless Networks * WISPA Wants You! Join today! http://signup.wispa.org/ WISPA Wireless List: wireless@wispa.org Subscribe/Unsubscribe: http://lists.wispa.org/mailman/listinfo/wireless Archives: http://lists.wispa.org/pipermail/wireless/
Re: [WISPA] 3650Mhz and Wimax Vendors
On Apr 22, 2009, at 4:55 PM, Butch Evans wrote: Matt, I apologize for the earlier post regarding your response in this thread. This post was certainly one that is helpful and addresses the questions that started the thread. I obviously missed this email before my most recent post. However, if my response was short please let me know. -Matt WISPA Wants You! Join today! http://signup.wispa.org/ WISPA Wireless List: wireless@wispa.org Subscribe/Unsubscribe: http://lists.wispa.org/mailman/listinfo/wireless Archives: http://lists.wispa.org/pipermail/wireless/
Re: [WISPA] 3650Mhz and Wimax Vendors
Press releases are not especially telling. Back at my old shop, Alvarion, we issued very few PRs relative to the customers we had. Aperto does even less. This is largely because we are a private company and don't have the need to keep public shareholders feeling jazzed. As a private company, we can afford to be slectively quiet instead of announcing to all our competition what and where we are doing. Patrick Leary Aperto Networks 813.426.4230 mobile -Original Message- From: wireless-boun...@wispa.org [mailto:wireless-boun...@wispa.org] On Behalf Of Matt Liotta Sent: Wednesday, April 22, 2009 12:54 PM To: WISPA General List Subject: Re: [WISPA] 3650Mhz and Wimax Vendors On Apr 22, 2009, at 3:17 PM, 3-dB Networks wrote: Matt, How does what you say in the first paragraph make Aperto not viable? I don't think anything from my first paragraph makes Aperto not viable. I am not sure I even like the term viable. I wouldn't suggest Aperto or recommend them as a WiMAX vendor. Of course, I don't have any direct experience with Aperto's current product line. Therefore, I can't compare and contrast their offerings to other WiMAX vendors that I do have experience with. Anecdotical evidence suggests that Aperto is not widely deployed. According to Aperto's press releases I only see one company mentioned that has deployed their WiMAX gear in the US. I don't know much about Zing to which the press release mentions. What I do know is that according to ULS they have only been approved to deploy a single Aperto radio. Further, at WiMAX World last year it seemed that Zing's CTO was employed by Aperto in sales. Compare this to Redline and Alvarion, which have lots of approved radios in ULS and multiple US customers including some large customers. -Matt WISPA Wants You! Join today! http://signup.wispa.org/ WISPA Wireless List: wireless@wispa.org Subscribe/Unsubscribe: http://lists.wispa.org/mailman/listinfo/wireless Archives: http://lists.wispa.org/pipermail/wireless/ WISPA Wants You! Join today! http://signup.wispa.org/ WISPA Wireless List: wireless@wispa.org Subscribe/Unsubscribe: http://lists.wispa.org/mailman/listinfo/wireless Archives: http://lists.wispa.org/pipermail/wireless/
Re: [WISPA] 3650Mhz and Wimax Vendors
On Apr 22, 2009, at 4:46 PM, Butch Evans wrote: WiMAX obviously has some things to offer. It was written specifically as an outdoor wireless specification. I think your summarization is a little short of the truth, though. It would be nice, IMO, if you, as an operator who acutally [has] experience in the field with the gear would at least answer the question instead of sitting on a high-horse. How is it short specifically? Further, I thought the actual question was which WiMAX vendors were worth considering. And, I thought I answered that question. -Matt WISPA Wants You! Join today! http://signup.wispa.org/ WISPA Wireless List: wireless@wispa.org Subscribe/Unsubscribe: http://lists.wispa.org/mailman/listinfo/wireless Archives: http://lists.wispa.org/pipermail/wireless/
Re: [WISPA] 3650Mhz and Wimax Vendors
Anybody use Airspan for Wimax? Michael Baird wrote: It was interesting, but I was hoping for some more first hand experience reporting. Essentially the only explanation for improved range was a lower noise floor, which isn't a wimax thing, but a 3.65 thing. I think a lot of the 802.16d/e talk is market speak, I'm trying to get through that and establish technical reasons why one or the other is superior. Regards Michael Baird So the recent thread on Wimax was quite interesting. I need to read up on the different technologies involved. I believe that a fixed deployment is sufficient for many many many needs and markets (wireless local loop if you will). If people want mobility/end user wireless they can hang an 802.11 AP off the ethernet port of whatever CPE. Wimax directly to the end device doesn't make much sense to me, in most markets and use cases. Obviously if you are supporting a highly mobile workforce (say public sector type stuff) then it makes a lot more sense. It got me thinking... if one was a new WISP entering an un(der)served market, it seems that it would not make sense to deploy standard 802.11 gear, but rather Wimax gear in 3650Mhz. Is this an accurate assessment? One particular area that I'm targeting, doesn't have any broadband available (other then 3g from Verzion). So they would need to purchase CPE anyway, and it wouldn't be anything they could get from Best Buy (DSL or Cable modem). I'm in the process of negotiating access to the excluded areas (in Southern California), but it's been slow going. Once I gain access it will open up many areas to some sorely needed competition. So who are the vendors in this space worth considering? What are peoples experiences with the sales process (both pre and post sales engineering) etc etc. WISPA Wants You! Join today! http://signup.wispa.org/ WISPA Wireless List: wireless@wispa.org Subscribe/Unsubscribe: http://lists.wispa.org/mailman/listinfo/wireless Archives: http://lists.wispa.org/pipermail/wireless/ WISPA Wants You! Join today! http://signup.wispa.org/ WISPA Wireless List: wireless@wispa.org Subscribe/Unsubscribe: http://lists.wispa.org/mailman/listinfo/wireless Archives: http://lists.wispa.org/pipermail/wireless/ WISPA Wants You! Join today! http://signup.wispa.org/ WISPA Wireless List: wireless@wispa.org Subscribe/Unsubscribe: http://lists.wispa.org/mailman/listinfo/wireless Archives: http://lists.wispa.org/pipermail/wireless/
Re: [WISPA] 3650Mhz and Wimax Vendors
We've looked at several different vendors for WiMAX and have been running Alvarion in 2.5GHz for almost 18 months now. Aperto seems to have a decent RF platform, as does Redline and Alvarion. We had two main issues with Aperto: ugly Tranzeo CPE and their EMS. Maybe some things have changed by the EMS was required to configure each base station and MS as it entered the network, however ran only on windows and didn't run as a service. So one clown closing the window and your network was dead in the water. Redline appears to have a solid product as well as does Alvarion. As was stated earlier the biggest reason to look at WiMAX is for differentiated services. If voice or a high quality data play is in your business plan it makes sense. If you are suffering from interference issues, and spectrum is becoming much more polluted everywhere, so 3650 does help in that regard. With access to 2.5GHz spectrum for us WiMAX was an option we considered purely for the penetration. The bulk of our subscriber base was only accessible using 900MHz access points, and we quickly outgrew the capacity of the Canopy APs we have been using and also are suffering increasingly from interference from a number of sources: RFID, baby monitors, a couple lingering paging companies, GPS correction for farming, saturation due to excessive numbers of Access POints to try to meet bandwidth demands, etc. We also didn't feel that we would be able to offer services other than basic broadband access across the Canopy platform. The 16e standard is valuable for us due to the penetration provided by MIMO and beamforming that are available within the standard. We could care less about the mobility (and added overhead) but its hard to get one without the other. If you've got clean spectrum and are only looking to deploy basic data access WiMAX probably doesn't make sense. If you have access to licensed spectrum, want to deploy differentiated services, or are looking at 3650 WiMAX may make sense. 16d will have less overhead and less cost: the complexities of the mobile platform are not there, nor do you need additional network components like an ASN-GW, and typically provisioning is greatly simplified. The problem you run into on the 16e side is that every vendor is only thinking about Clearwire and not considering the WISP and the price point a WISP is able to justify. Ben Wiechman Wisper High Speed Internet On Wed, Apr 22, 2009 at 4:30 PM, Pat O'Connor p...@inlandnet.com wrote: Anybody use Airspan for Wimax? Michael Baird wrote: It was interesting, but I was hoping for some more first hand experience reporting. Essentially the only explanation for improved range was a lower noise floor, which isn't a wimax thing, but a 3.65 thing. I think a lot of the 802.16d/e talk is market speak, I'm trying to get through that and establish technical reasons why one or the other is superior. Regards Michael Baird So the recent thread on Wimax was quite interesting. I need to read up on the different technologies involved. I believe that a fixed deployment is sufficient for many many many needs and markets (wireless local loop if you will). If people want mobility/end user wireless they can hang an 802.11 AP off the ethernet port of whatever CPE. Wimax directly to the end device doesn't make much sense to me, in most markets and use cases. Obviously if you are supporting a highly mobile workforce (say public sector type stuff) then it makes a lot more sense. It got me thinking... if one was a new WISP entering an un(der)served market, it seems that it would not make sense to deploy standard 802.11 gear, but rather Wimax gear in 3650Mhz. Is this an accurate assessment? One particular area that I'm targeting, doesn't have any broadband available (other then 3g from Verzion). So they would need to purchase CPE anyway, and it wouldn't be anything they could get from Best Buy (DSL or Cable modem). I'm in the process of negotiating access to the excluded areas (in Southern California), but it's been slow going. Once I gain access it will open up many areas to some sorely needed competition. So who are the vendors in this space worth considering? What are peoples experiences with the sales process (both pre and post sales engineering) etc etc. WISPA Wants You! Join today! http://signup.wispa.org/ WISPA Wireless List: wireless@wispa.org Subscribe/Unsubscribe: http://lists.wispa.org/mailman/listinfo/wireless Archives: http://lists.wispa.org/pipermail/wireless/ WISPA Wants You! Join today! http://signup.wispa.org/ WISPA
Re: [WISPA] 3650Mhz and Wimax Vendors
http://www.palmbeachpost.com/localnews/content/business/epaper/2009/04/20/0420airspan.html -Matt On Apr 22, 2009, at 5:30 PM, Pat O'Connor wrote: Anybody use Airspan for Wimax? Michael Baird wrote: It was interesting, but I was hoping for some more first hand experience reporting. Essentially the only explanation for improved range was a lower noise floor, which isn't a wimax thing, but a 3.65 thing. I think a lot of the 802.16d/e talk is market speak, I'm trying to get through that and establish technical reasons why one or the other is superior. Regards Michael Baird So the recent thread on Wimax was quite interesting. I need to read up on the different technologies involved. I believe that a fixed deployment is sufficient for many many many needs and markets (wireless local loop if you will). If people want mobility/end user wireless they can hang an 802.11 AP off the ethernet port of whatever CPE. Wimax directly to the end device doesn't make much sense to me, in most markets and use cases. Obviously if you are supporting a highly mobile workforce (say public sector type stuff) then it makes a lot more sense. It got me thinking... if one was a new WISP entering an un(der)served market, it seems that it would not make sense to deploy standard 802.11 gear, but rather Wimax gear in 3650Mhz. Is this an accurate assessment? One particular area that I'm targeting, doesn't have any broadband available (other then 3g from Verzion). So they would need to purchase CPE anyway, and it wouldn't be anything they could get from Best Buy (DSL or Cable modem). I'm in the process of negotiating access to the excluded areas (in Southern California), but it's been slow going. Once I gain access it will open up many areas to some sorely needed competition. So who are the vendors in this space worth considering? What are peoples experiences with the sales process (both pre and post sales engineering) etc etc. WISPA Wants You! Join today! http://signup.wispa.org/ WISPA Wireless List: wireless@wispa.org Subscribe/Unsubscribe: http://lists.wispa.org/mailman/listinfo/wireless Archives: http://lists.wispa.org/pipermail/wireless/ WISPA Wants You! Join today! http://signup.wispa.org/ WISPA Wireless List: wireless@wispa.org Subscribe/Unsubscribe: http://lists.wispa.org/mailman/listinfo/wireless Archives: http://lists.wispa.org/pipermail/wireless/ WISPA Wants You! Join today! http://signup.wispa.org/ WISPA Wireless List: wireless@wispa.org Subscribe/Unsubscribe: http://lists.wispa.org/mailman/listinfo/wireless Archives: http://lists.wispa.org/pipermail/wireless/ WISPA Wants You! Join today! http://signup.wispa.org/ WISPA Wireless List: wireless@wispa.org Subscribe/Unsubscribe: http://lists.wispa.org/mailman/listinfo/wireless Archives: http://lists.wispa.org/pipermail/wireless/
Re: [WISPA] 3650Mhz and Wimax Vendors
Ouch Tought times for airspan...? Gino A. Villarini g...@aeronetpr.com Aeronet Wireless Broadband Corp. tel 787.273.4143 fax 787.273.4145 -Original Message- From: wireless-boun...@wispa.org [mailto:wireless-boun...@wispa.org] On Behalf Of Matt Liotta Sent: Wednesday, April 22, 2009 6:19 PM To: WISPA General List Subject: Re: [WISPA] 3650Mhz and Wimax Vendors http://www.palmbeachpost.com/localnews/content/business/epaper/2009/04/2 0/0420airspan.html -Matt On Apr 22, 2009, at 5:30 PM, Pat O'Connor wrote: Anybody use Airspan for Wimax? Michael Baird wrote: It was interesting, but I was hoping for some more first hand experience reporting. Essentially the only explanation for improved range was a lower noise floor, which isn't a wimax thing, but a 3.65 thing. I think a lot of the 802.16d/e talk is market speak, I'm trying to get through that and establish technical reasons why one or the other is superior. Regards Michael Baird So the recent thread on Wimax was quite interesting. I need to read up on the different technologies involved. I believe that a fixed deployment is sufficient for many many many needs and markets (wireless local loop if you will). If people want mobility/end user wireless they can hang an 802.11 AP off the ethernet port of whatever CPE. Wimax directly to the end device doesn't make much sense to me, in most markets and use cases. Obviously if you are supporting a highly mobile workforce (say public sector type stuff) then it makes a lot more sense. It got me thinking... if one was a new WISP entering an un(der)served market, it seems that it would not make sense to deploy standard 802.11 gear, but rather Wimax gear in 3650Mhz. Is this an accurate assessment? One particular area that I'm targeting, doesn't have any broadband available (other then 3g from Verzion). So they would need to purchase CPE anyway, and it wouldn't be anything they could get from Best Buy (DSL or Cable modem). I'm in the process of negotiating access to the excluded areas (in Southern California), but it's been slow going. Once I gain access it will open up many areas to some sorely needed competition. So who are the vendors in this space worth considering? What are peoples experiences with the sales process (both pre and post sales engineering) etc etc. WISPA Wants You! Join today! http://signup.wispa.org/ WISPA Wireless List: wireless@wispa.org Subscribe/Unsubscribe: http://lists.wispa.org/mailman/listinfo/wireless Archives: http://lists.wispa.org/pipermail/wireless/ - --- WISPA Wants You! Join today! http://signup.wispa.org/ - --- WISPA Wireless List: wireless@wispa.org Subscribe/Unsubscribe: http://lists.wispa.org/mailman/listinfo/wireless Archives: http://lists.wispa.org/pipermail/wireless/ -- -- WISPA Wants You! Join today! http://signup.wispa.org/ -- -- WISPA Wireless List: wireless@wispa.org Subscribe/Unsubscribe: http://lists.wispa.org/mailman/listinfo/wireless Archives: http://lists.wispa.org/pipermail/wireless/ WISPA Wants You! Join today! http://signup.wispa.org/ WISPA Wireless List: wireless@wispa.org Subscribe/Unsubscribe: http://lists.wispa.org/mailman/listinfo/wireless Archives: http://lists.wispa.org/pipermail/wireless/ WISPA Wants You! Join today! http://signup.wispa.org/ WISPA Wireless List: wireless@wispa.org Subscribe/Unsubscribe: http://lists.wispa.org/mailman/listinfo/wireless Archives: http://lists.wispa.org/pipermail/wireless/
Re: [WISPA] 3650Mhz and Wimax Vendors
Geeze. Not comforting at all. Aperto is my first choice now because I believe they use TR-069. But I wanted to see if anyone had used Airspan's Macromax product. Matt Liotta wrote: http://www.palmbeachpost.com/localnews/content/business/epaper/2009/04/20/0420airspan.html -Matt On Apr 22, 2009, at 5:30 PM, Pat O'Connor wrote: Anybody use Airspan for Wimax? Michael Baird wrote: It was interesting, but I was hoping for some more first hand experience reporting. Essentially the only explanation for improved range was a lower noise floor, which isn't a wimax thing, but a 3.65 thing. I think a lot of the 802.16d/e talk is market speak, I'm trying to get through that and establish technical reasons why one or the other is superior. Regards Michael Baird So the recent thread on Wimax was quite interesting. I need to read up on the different technologies involved. I believe that a fixed deployment is sufficient for many many many needs and markets (wireless local loop if you will). If people want mobility/end user wireless they can hang an 802.11 AP off the ethernet port of whatever CPE. Wimax directly to the end device doesn't make much sense to me, in most markets and use cases. Obviously if you are supporting a highly mobile workforce (say public sector type stuff) then it makes a lot more sense. It got me thinking... if one was a new WISP entering an un(der)served market, it seems that it would not make sense to deploy standard 802.11 gear, but rather Wimax gear in 3650Mhz. Is this an accurate assessment? One particular area that I'm targeting, doesn't have any broadband available (other then 3g from Verzion). So they would need to purchase CPE anyway, and it wouldn't be anything they could get from Best Buy (DSL or Cable modem). I'm in the process of negotiating access to the excluded areas (in Southern California), but it's been slow going. Once I gain access it will open up many areas to some sorely needed competition. So who are the vendors in this space worth considering? What are peoples experiences with the sales process (both pre and post sales engineering) etc etc. WISPA Wants You! Join today! http://signup.wispa.org/ WISPA Wireless List: wireless@wispa.org Subscribe/Unsubscribe: http://lists.wispa.org/mailman/listinfo/wireless Archives: http://lists.wispa.org/pipermail/wireless/ WISPA Wants You! Join today! http://signup.wispa.org/ WISPA Wireless List: wireless@wispa.org Subscribe/Unsubscribe: http://lists.wispa.org/mailman/listinfo/wireless Archives: http://lists.wispa.org/pipermail/wireless/ WISPA Wants You! Join today! http://signup.wispa.org/ WISPA Wireless List: wireless@wispa.org Subscribe/Unsubscribe: http://lists.wispa.org/mailman/listinfo/wireless Archives: http://lists.wispa.org/pipermail/wireless/ WISPA Wants You! Join today! http://signup.wispa.org/ WISPA Wireless List: wireless@wispa.org Subscribe/Unsubscribe: http://lists.wispa.org/mailman/listinfo/wireless Archives: http://lists.wispa.org/pipermail/wireless/ WISPA Wants You! Join today! http://signup.wispa.org/ WISPA Wireless List: wireless@wispa.org Subscribe/Unsubscribe: http://lists.wispa.org/mailman/listinfo/wireless Archives: http://lists.wispa.org/pipermail/wireless/
Re: [WISPA] 3650Mhz and Wimax Vendors
This is what I'm looking for. Thank you!! Ben Wiechman wrote: We've looked at several different vendors for WiMAX and have been running Alvarion in 2.5GHz for almost 18 months now. Aperto seems to have a decent RF platform, as does Redline and Alvarion. We had two main issues with Aperto: ugly Tranzeo CPE and their EMS. Maybe some things have changed by the EMS was required to configure each base station and MS as it entered the network, however ran only on windows and didn't run as a service. So one clown closing the window and your network was dead in the water. Redline appears to have a solid product as well as does Alvarion. As was stated earlier the biggest reason to look at WiMAX is for differentiated services. If voice or a high quality data play is in your business plan it makes sense. If you are suffering from interference issues, and spectrum is becoming much more polluted everywhere, so 3650 does help in that regard. With access to 2.5GHz spectrum for us WiMAX was an option we considered purely for the penetration. The bulk of our subscriber base was only accessible using 900MHz access points, and we quickly outgrew the capacity of the Canopy APs we have been using and also are suffering increasingly from interference from a number of sources: RFID, baby monitors, a couple lingering paging companies, GPS correction for farming, saturation due to excessive numbers of Access POints to try to meet bandwidth demands, etc. We also didn't feel that we would be able to offer services other than basic broadband access across the Canopy platform. The 16e standard is valuable for us due to the penetration provided by MIMO and beamforming that are available within the standard. We could care less about the mobility (and added overhead) but its hard to get one without the other. If you've got clean spectrum and are only looking to deploy basic data access WiMAX probably doesn't make sense. If you have access to licensed spectrum, want to deploy differentiated services, or are looking at 3650 WiMAX may make sense. 16d will have less overhead and less cost: the complexities of the mobile platform are not there, nor do you need additional network components like an ASN-GW, and typically provisioning is greatly simplified. The problem you run into on the 16e side is that every vendor is only thinking about Clearwire and not considering the WISP and the price point a WISP is able to justify. Ben Wiechman Wisper High Speed Internet On Wed, Apr 22, 2009 at 4:30 PM, Pat O'Connor p...@inlandnet.com wrote: Anybody use Airspan for Wimax? Michael Baird wrote: It was interesting, but I was hoping for some more first hand experience reporting. Essentially the only explanation for improved range was a lower noise floor, which isn't a wimax thing, but a 3.65 thing. I think a lot of the 802.16d/e talk is market speak, I'm trying to get through that and establish technical reasons why one or the other is superior. Regards Michael Baird So the recent thread on Wimax was quite interesting. I need to read up on the different technologies involved. I believe that a fixed deployment is sufficient for many many many needs and markets (wireless local loop if you will). If people want mobility/end user wireless they can hang an 802.11 AP off the ethernet port of whatever CPE. Wimax directly to the end device doesn't make much sense to me, in most markets and use cases. Obviously if you are supporting a highly mobile workforce (say public sector type stuff) then it makes a lot more sense. It got me thinking... if one was a new WISP entering an un(der)served market, it seems that it would not make sense to deploy standard 802.11 gear, but rather Wimax gear in 3650Mhz. Is this an accurate assessment? One particular area that I'm targeting, doesn't have any broadband available (other then 3g from Verzion). So they would need to purchase CPE anyway, and it wouldn't be anything they could get from Best Buy (DSL or Cable modem). I'm in the process of negotiating access to the excluded areas (in Southern California), but it's been slow going. Once I gain access it will open up many areas to some sorely needed competition. So who are the vendors in this space worth considering? What are peoples experiences with the sales process (both pre and post sales engineering) etc etc. WISPA Wants You! Join today! http://signup.wispa.org/ WISPA Wireless List: wireless@wispa.org Subscribe/Unsubscribe: http://lists.wispa.org/mailman/listinfo/wireless Archives: http://lists.wispa.org/pipermail/wireless/ WISPA Wants You! Join today! http://signup.wispa.org/
Re: [WISPA] 3650Mhz and Wimax Vendors
Folks, IMHO, It really comes down to a cost benefit analysis. So an 802.11 or canopy system might run you a lot less CAPEX, but it carries more OPEX. So if in a given tower site you pay 200 / mo per antenna deployed on a tower, wimax might be cheaper than a lower system that cannot scale to say, 100-250 subscribers effectively. In addition to backhaul costs if you go carrier class. So lets break down the real costs: Cell radius= 30km Wimax Sector, carrier class: 7,500 ( 20k ) on a lease of 36 months, 750 per month PTP licensed radio: 12,000 on a lease of 36 months, 500 per month. Cost per subscriber: 299 (150 after install paid by customer ) ARPU per subscriber: 60 ( voice + data package ) Lease per tower, 3 sectors+ backhaul and : 1000 Total subscriber count per tower: 500 ( 5 month build out, 100 subs per mo ) Calculate it out and you show 270k in annualized revenue for 1 tower site, that can easily support this model for a basic internet plus phone service with no hiccups, and likely still have capacity left up to 750 subs on 3 sectors. Yes the rules of oversubscription apply, you cant sell 750 business grade circuits. The point is for a TCO, that's one tower site to cover a 20km radius, meaning less leases per month of 1k or more, so isntead of 4 tower sites to cover this area ( and pay 4k per month ) If you are just calculating your break point on your tower costs, you break even at a 100 subs per month click, at 3 months in. On your subscriber stations, if you carry the cost, it takes 6 months per subscriber. However on a 12 month basis you are @ 270k with 170k in cost, or 100k in profit. MOT canopy example Cell radius= 10km Cascade networks canopy system: 3 per tower, 9 sectors: 2500 x 9 = 20,000 PTP licensed radio: 48,000 on a lease of 36 months, 3000 per month. Cost per subscriber: 250 (150 after install paid by customer ) ARPU per subscriber: 30- data only package Lease per tower, 3 sectors+ backhaul and : 1000 Total subscriber count per tower: 150 ( 5 month build out, 100 subs per mo ) Tower sites: 3 Revenue per MO @ 500 subscribers 15,000. ( 150k a year in revenue ) So since you cant really effectively provide carrier class voice you sell only data. To cover the same area with 1 tower it takes you 3 towers which triples your OPEX for towers and triples the # of base stations needed, as well as triples the backhaul costs, while impacting where you are with your revenue. - Jeff -Original Message- From: wireless-boun...@wispa.org [mailto:wireless-boun...@wispa.org] On Behalf Of Matt Liotta Sent: Wednesday, April 22, 2009 11:02 AM To: WISPA General List Subject: Re: [WISPA] 3650Mhz and Wimax Vendors Those of us operators who actually have experience in the field with the gear tend to avoid posting to threads about WiMAX because the threads quickly devolve. I suggest you read the archives of this mailing list. To summarize though; operators who use WiMAX like it and think the technology is actually different and better than what else is out there. The people who don't use WiMAX think it is overpriced and not particularly interesting. -Matt On Apr 22, 2009, at 1:41 PM, Charles Wyble wrote: I'm looking for more operational experience and end user experience. Certainly good technology contributes to that, but that isn't my primary goal. Michael Baird wrote: It was interesting, but I was hoping for some more first hand experience reporting. Essentially the only explanation for improved range was a lower noise floor, which isn't a wimax thing, but a 3.65 thing. I think a lot of the 802.16d/e talk is market speak, I'm trying to get through that and establish technical reasons why one or the other is superior. Regards Michael Baird So the recent thread on Wimax was quite interesting. I need to read up on the different technologies involved. I believe that a fixed deployment is sufficient for many many many needs and markets (wireless local loop if you will). If people want mobility/end user wireless they can hang an 802.11 AP off the ethernet port of whatever CPE. Wimax directly to the end device doesn't make much sense to me, in most markets and use cases. Obviously if you are supporting a highly mobile workforce (say public sector type stuff) then it makes a lot more sense. It got me thinking... if one was a new WISP entering an un(der)served market, it seems that it would not make sense to deploy standard 802.11 gear, but rather Wimax gear in 3650Mhz. Is this an accurate assessment? One particular area that I'm targeting, doesn't have any broadband available (other then 3g from Verzion). So they would need to purchase CPE anyway, and it wouldn't be anything they could get from Best Buy (DSL or Cable modem). I'm in the process of negotiating access to the excluded areas (in Southern California), but it's been slow going. Once I gain access it will open up many areas to some sorely needed competition
Re: [WISPA] 3650Mhz and Wimax Vendors
All, I work for a vendor ( Aperto ) so take this as you will. Like most vendors out there there are differences for everything. Veccima is a pico solution, which means that they are using a wavesat chipset on the base and CPE, so the major difference between veccima and alvarion and Aperto would be PPS, QOS, features, throughput, and scalablity. Aperto and Redline are pretty close in PPS, and alvarion and veccima are less, with Airspan and tranzeo having the lowest pps. From a cost perspective it looks like this: Pricing Redline : 1 ( 3 sector base 30k street, cpe 400 ) Alvarion: 2 (3 sector base 24k street, cpe 350-400 ) Airspan 3 ( 3 sector base 22k street, cpe 400-500 ) Aperto: 4 ( 3 sector base 20k street, cpe 280-400 ) Veccima: 5 (3 sector base 17k street, cpe 250-350) Tranzeo 6: ( 3 sector base 6k street, cpe 250-350 ) PPS / # of clients supported realistically 1. Aperto ( 30k pps / sector ) 2. Redline claims to be in the same range, but I havent verifed this 3. Alvarion ( 4000 pps ) 4. Veccima ( same range as alvarion ) 5. airspan ( low ) 6. Tranzeo ( only supports 30 clients ) Throughput: Almost everyone supports around 20mb / sec on a 7mhz channel, except alvarion which only supports 12mb on a 5mhz channel. The biggest factors to consider is PPS if you are doing voice or want to support a high # of subs per tower site, as you are limited to 3 channels in 3.65ghz. Price is a consideration, but the biggest issue with Tranzeo is they have no sync port on the base station so you could have interference issues when you try to deploy 3 on a tower ( you need 14mhz seperation if you don't have sync with wimax ) So in conclusion- want a cheap solution to support 30 subs of a single sector? Tranzeo is a good bet. Want something more carrier class? Redline or Aperto are a good fit. The final consideration is QOS. We recently were selected by a customer because of this and when they compared EVERYONE here we had by far the most Stable quality of service, and by far the most networking features. Aperto also holds several wimax patents in regards to QOS. Finally we also have multiple frequenices, like 5.8, 5.4, 4.9, 2.5 solutions so you wont be tied to one band. I think only Airspan supports 5ghz in Wimax, except for us. Jeff Booher Director of Sales, North America www.apertonet.com jboo...@apertonet.com jefftho...@fastmail.fm 24/7: 206-455-4950 This email may contain material that is confidential, privileged and/or work product for the sole use of the intended recipient. Any review, reliance or distribution by others without express permission is strictly prohibited. If you are not the intended recipient, please contact the sender and delete all copies. -Original Message- From: wireless-boun...@wispa.org [mailto:wireless-boun...@wispa.org] On Behalf Of Christopher Hair Sent: Wednesday, April 22, 2009 11:58 AM To: 'WISPA General List' Subject: Re: [WISPA] 3650Mhz and Wimax Vendors We're also looking to deploy Wimax at a couple of our tower locations to provide higher bandwidth to business customers and take a load off some of our 900 APs. One vendor we are looking at is Vecima Networks. Anyone out there using VistaMAX 3.65 GHz from Vecima. I would be very interested in some real world experiences with this vendor. Pro and cons... Thanks in Advance Chris What he said. :) Seriously I'm interested in actual experiences. Not moans and gripes and arm chair speculation. I'm very interested in deploying Wimax technology and want real world information and actual operator feedback. Michael Baird wrote: Matt, I appreciate your perspective, but I've already read through the archives and with Wimax technology what was valid yesterday might not be valid today. I'm not interested in a holy war, we are certainly going to deploy Wimax in the near future, I just want to set expectations properly before we are mounting the gear on the tower, and reading marketing info from Alverion/Tranzeo/Aperto certainly doesn't help clear up the differences and advantages to the technology. Regards Michael Baird Those of us operators who actually have experience in the field with the gear tend to avoid posting to threads about WiMAX because the threads quickly devolve. I suggest you read the archives of this mailing list. To summarize though; operators who use WiMAX like it and think the technology is actually different and better than what else is out there. The people who don't use WiMAX think it is overpriced and not particularly interesting. -Matt On Apr 22, 2009, at 1:41 PM, Charles Wyble wrote: I'm looking for more operational experience and end user experience. Certainly good technology contributes to that, but that isn't my primary goal. Michael Baird wrote: It was interesting, but I was hoping for some more first hand experience reporting. Essentially the only explanation for improved range was a lower noise
Re: [WISPA] 3650Mhz and Wimax Vendors
What about solectek, winetwoks and proxim? Sent from my Motorola Startac... On Apr 22, 2009, at 8:35 PM, Jeff Booher jefftho...@fastmail.fm wrote: All, I work for a vendor ( Aperto ) so take this as you will. Like most vendors out there there are differences for everything. Veccima is a pico solution, which means that they are using a wavesat chipset on the base and CPE, so the major difference between veccima and alvarion and Aperto would be PPS, QOS, features, throughput, and scalablity. Aperto and Redline are pretty close in PPS, and alvarion and veccima are less, with Airspan and tranzeo having the lowest pps. From a cost perspective it looks like this: Pricing Redline : 1 ( 3 sector base 30k street, cpe 400 ) Alvarion: 2 (3 sector base 24k street, cpe 350-400 ) Airspan 3 ( 3 sector base 22k street, cpe 400-500 ) Aperto: 4 ( 3 sector base 20k street, cpe 280-400 ) Veccima: 5 (3 sector base 17k street, cpe 250-350) Tranzeo 6: ( 3 sector base 6k street, cpe 250-350 ) PPS / # of clients supported realistically 1. Aperto ( 30k pps / sector ) 2. Redline claims to be in the same range, but I havent verifed this 3. Alvarion ( 4000 pps ) 4. Veccima ( same range as alvarion ) 5. airspan ( low ) 6. Tranzeo ( only supports 30 clients ) Throughput: Almost everyone supports around 20mb / sec on a 7mhz channel, except alvarion which only supports 12mb on a 5mhz channel. The biggest factors to consider is PPS if you are doing voice or want to support a high # of subs per tower site, as you are limited to 3 channels in 3.65ghz. Price is a consideration, but the biggest issue with Tranzeo is they have no sync port on the base station so you could have interference issues when you try to deploy 3 on a tower ( you need 14mhz seperation if you don't have sync with wimax ) So in conclusion- want a cheap solution to support 30 subs of a single sector? Tranzeo is a good bet. Want something more carrier class? Redline or Aperto are a good fit. The final consideration is QOS. We recently were selected by a customer because of this and when they compared EVERYONE here we had by far the most Stable quality of service, and by far the most networking features. Aperto also holds several wimax patents in regards to QOS. Finally we also have multiple frequenices, like 5.8, 5.4, 4.9, 2.5 solutions so you wont be tied to one band. I think only Airspan supports 5ghz in Wimax, except for us. Jeff Booher Director of Sales, North America www.apertonet.com jboo...@apertonet.com jefftho...@fastmail.fm 24/7: 206-455-4950 This email may contain material that is confidential, privileged and/ or work product for the sole use of the intended recipient. Any review, reliance or distribution by others without express permission is strictly prohibited. If you are not the intended recipient, please contact the sender and delete all copies. -Original Message- From: wireless-boun...@wispa.org [mailto:wireless-boun...@wispa.org] On Behalf Of Christopher Hair Sent: Wednesday, April 22, 2009 11:58 AM To: 'WISPA General List' Subject: Re: [WISPA] 3650Mhz and Wimax Vendors We're also looking to deploy Wimax at a couple of our tower locations to provide higher bandwidth to business customers and take a load off some of our 900 APs. One vendor we are looking at is Vecima Networks. Anyone out there using VistaMAX 3.65 GHz from Vecima. I would be very interested in some real world experiences with this vendor. Pro and cons... Thanks in Advance Chris What he said. :) Seriously I'm interested in actual experiences. Not moans and gripes and arm chair speculation. I'm very interested in deploying Wimax technology and want real world information and actual operator feedback. Michael Baird wrote: Matt, I appreciate your perspective, but I've already read through the archives and with Wimax technology what was valid yesterday might not be valid today. I'm not interested in a holy war, we are certainly going to deploy Wimax in the near future, I just want to set expectations properly before we are mounting the gear on the tower, and reading marketing info from Alverion/Tranzeo/Aperto certainly doesn't help clear up the differences and advantages to the technology. Regards Michael Baird Those of us operators who actually have experience in the field with the gear tend to avoid posting to threads about WiMAX because the threads quickly devolve. I suggest you read the archives of this mailing list. To summarize though; operators who use WiMAX like it and think the technology is actually different and better than what else is out there. The people who don't use WiMAX think it is overpriced and not particularly interesting. -Matt On Apr 22, 2009, at 1:41 PM, Charles Wyble wrote: I'm looking for more operational experience and end user experience
Re: [WISPA] 3650Mhz and Wimax Vendors
Matt, We have several customers in the market with trials or actually deployed. I cant help if they all havent gotten their FCC licenses *duck*, or fully executed in their plans. Remember as well, not EVERYONE uses 3.65ghz, and many customers use 5.8 or 5.4. As far as Tolly marcus being employed by aperto, he does work as a contractor for Wireless Connections in sales, but is actively engaged in deploying his networks throughout his focused regions. Its not all however, 3.65ghz. We don't actually make a press release every time we win an operator account either, nor do any other manufacturers. Additionally, in 3.65ghz, I don't believe alvarion is shipping a fully implemented true e system but rather a modified D system with diversity and MRC. Remember as well we didn't release 3.650 product until about 6 months after Redline, so you cant expect there to be a lot out there for you to find in the FCC database. As well, we have a lot more history, more products, and actually more carrier customers than Redline does internationally and in the US. If you would like a list of our US or international customer base, feel free to hit me off list. Finally I find that many operators recommend what they buy: in your case you bought a bunch of Redline. Most folks would never make a reccmeondation for another solution esp when they work for a publically traded company, that would look pretty bad wouldn't it? You have your Bias, and will likely stick to that. With the same thing in mind, your business model is quite unique in the market as you sell large PTP connections and not multipoint connections to small business / consumer. Redline may be a good fit for you then. Please however don't make any judgements on our product when you have never tested it, deployed it, received a quotation, or talked to one of our many customers. Jeff Booher Director of Sales, North America www.apertonet.com jboo...@apertonet.com jefftho...@fastmail.fm 24/7: 206-455-4950 This email may contain material that is confidential, privileged and/or work product for the sole use of the intended recipient. Any review, reliance or distribution by others without express permission is strictly prohibited. If you are not the intended recipient, please contact the sender and delete all copies. -Original Message- From: wireless-boun...@wispa.org [mailto:wireless-boun...@wispa.org] On Behalf Of Matt Liotta Sent: Wednesday, April 22, 2009 12:54 PM To: WISPA General List Subject: Re: [WISPA] 3650Mhz and Wimax Vendors On Apr 22, 2009, at 3:17 PM, 3-dB Networks wrote: Matt, How does what you say in the first paragraph make Aperto not viable? I don't think anything from my first paragraph makes Aperto not viable. I am not sure I even like the term viable. I wouldn't suggest Aperto or recommend them as a WiMAX vendor. Of course, I don't have any direct experience with Aperto's current product line. Therefore, I can't compare and contrast their offerings to other WiMAX vendors that I do have experience with. Anecdotical evidence suggests that Aperto is not widely deployed. According to Aperto's press releases I only see one company mentioned that has deployed their WiMAX gear in the US. I don't know much about Zing to which the press release mentions. What I do know is that according to ULS they have only been approved to deploy a single Aperto radio. Further, at WiMAX World last year it seemed that Zing's CTO was employed by Aperto in sales. Compare this to Redline and Alvarion, which have lots of approved radios in ULS and multiple US customers including some large customers. -Matt WISPA Wants You! Join today! http://signup.wispa.org/ WISPA Wireless List: wireless@wispa.org Subscribe/Unsubscribe: http://lists.wispa.org/mailman/listinfo/wireless Archives: http://lists.wispa.org/pipermail/wireless/ WISPA Wants You! Join today! http://signup.wispa.org/ WISPA Wireless List: wireless@wispa.org Subscribe/Unsubscribe: http://lists.wispa.org/mailman/listinfo/wireless Archives: http://lists.wispa.org/pipermail/wireless/
Re: [WISPA] 3650Mhz and Wimax Vendors
Sadly they are getting low on cash too Redline is in the same boat. -Original Message- From: wireless-boun...@wispa.org [mailto:wireless-boun...@wispa.org] On Behalf Of Pat O'Connor Sent: Wednesday, April 22, 2009 3:38 PM To: WISPA General List Subject: Re: [WISPA] 3650Mhz and Wimax Vendors Geeze. Not comforting at all. Aperto is my first choice now because I believe they use TR-069. But I wanted to see if anyone had used Airspan's Macromax product. Matt Liotta wrote: http://www.palmbeachpost.com/localnews/content/business/epaper/2009/04/20/04 20airspan.html -Matt On Apr 22, 2009, at 5:30 PM, Pat O'Connor wrote: Anybody use Airspan for Wimax? Michael Baird wrote: It was interesting, but I was hoping for some more first hand experience reporting. Essentially the only explanation for improved range was a lower noise floor, which isn't a wimax thing, but a 3.65 thing. I think a lot of the 802.16d/e talk is market speak, I'm trying to get through that and establish technical reasons why one or the other is superior. Regards Michael Baird So the recent thread on Wimax was quite interesting. I need to read up on the different technologies involved. I believe that a fixed deployment is sufficient for many many many needs and markets (wireless local loop if you will). If people want mobility/end user wireless they can hang an 802.11 AP off the ethernet port of whatever CPE. Wimax directly to the end device doesn't make much sense to me, in most markets and use cases. Obviously if you are supporting a highly mobile workforce (say public sector type stuff) then it makes a lot more sense. It got me thinking... if one was a new WISP entering an un(der)served market, it seems that it would not make sense to deploy standard 802.11 gear, but rather Wimax gear in 3650Mhz. Is this an accurate assessment? One particular area that I'm targeting, doesn't have any broadband available (other then 3g from Verzion). So they would need to purchase CPE anyway, and it wouldn't be anything they could get from Best Buy (DSL or Cable modem). I'm in the process of negotiating access to the excluded areas (in Southern California), but it's been slow going. Once I gain access it will open up many areas to some sorely needed competition. So who are the vendors in this space worth considering? What are peoples experiences with the sales process (both pre and post sales engineering) etc etc. WISPA Wants You! Join today! http://signup.wispa.org/ WISPA Wireless List: wireless@wispa.org Subscribe/Unsubscribe: http://lists.wispa.org/mailman/listinfo/wireless Archives: http://lists.wispa.org/pipermail/wireless/ WISPA Wants You! Join today! http://signup.wispa.org/ WISPA Wireless List: wireless@wispa.org Subscribe/Unsubscribe: http://lists.wispa.org/mailman/listinfo/wireless Archives: http://lists.wispa.org/pipermail/wireless/ WISPA Wants You! Join today! http://signup.wispa.org/ WISPA Wireless List: wireless@wispa.org Subscribe/Unsubscribe: http://lists.wispa.org/mailman/listinfo/wireless Archives: http://lists.wispa.org/pipermail/wireless/ WISPA Wants You! Join today! http://signup.wispa.org/ WISPA Wireless List: wireless@wispa.org Subscribe/Unsubscribe: http://lists.wispa.org/mailman/listinfo/wireless Archives: http://lists.wispa.org/pipermail/wireless/ WISPA Wants You! Join today! http://signup.wispa.org/ WISPA Wireless List: wireless@wispa.org Subscribe/Unsubscribe: http://lists.wispa.org/mailman/listinfo/wireless Archives: http://lists.wispa.org/pipermail/wireless/ WISPA Wants You! Join today! http://signup.wispa.org/ WISPA Wireless List: wireless@wispa.org Subscribe/Unsubscribe: http://lists.wispa.org/mailman/listinfo/wireless Archives: http://lists.wispa.org/pipermail/wireless/
Re: [WISPA] 3650Mhz and Wimax Vendors
FYI Ben, we are finally fixing ( or fixed ) that issue with running as a service and now have A version for oracle. Sorry tranzeo is 00gly :) -Original Message- From: wireless-boun...@wispa.org [mailto:wireless-boun...@wispa.org] On Behalf Of Charles Wyble Sent: Wednesday, April 22, 2009 3:40 PM To: WISPA General List Subject: Re: [WISPA] 3650Mhz and Wimax Vendors This is what I'm looking for. Thank you!! Ben Wiechman wrote: We've looked at several different vendors for WiMAX and have been running Alvarion in 2.5GHz for almost 18 months now. Aperto seems to have a decent RF platform, as does Redline and Alvarion. We had two main issues with Aperto: ugly Tranzeo CPE and their EMS. Maybe some things have changed by the EMS was required to configure each base station and MS as it entered the network, however ran only on windows and didn't run as a service. So one clown closing the window and your network was dead in the water. Redline appears to have a solid product as well as does Alvarion. As was stated earlier the biggest reason to look at WiMAX is for differentiated services. If voice or a high quality data play is in your business plan it makes sense. If you are suffering from interference issues, and spectrum is becoming much more polluted everywhere, so 3650 does help in that regard. With access to 2.5GHz spectrum for us WiMAX was an option we considered purely for the penetration. The bulk of our subscriber base was only accessible using 900MHz access points, and we quickly outgrew the capacity of the Canopy APs we have been using and also are suffering increasingly from interference from a number of sources: RFID, baby monitors, a couple lingering paging companies, GPS correction for farming, saturation due to excessive numbers of Access POints to try to meet bandwidth demands, etc. We also didn't feel that we would be able to offer services other than basic broadband access across the Canopy platform. The 16e standard is valuable for us due to the penetration provided by MIMO and beamforming that are available within the standard. We could care less about the mobility (and added overhead) but its hard to get one without the other. If you've got clean spectrum and are only looking to deploy basic data access WiMAX probably doesn't make sense. If you have access to licensed spectrum, want to deploy differentiated services, or are looking at 3650 WiMAX may make sense. 16d will have less overhead and less cost: the complexities of the mobile platform are not there, nor do you need additional network components like an ASN-GW, and typically provisioning is greatly simplified. The problem you run into on the 16e side is that every vendor is only thinking about Clearwire and not considering the WISP and the price point a WISP is able to justify. Ben Wiechman Wisper High Speed Internet On Wed, Apr 22, 2009 at 4:30 PM, Pat O'Connor p...@inlandnet.com wrote: Anybody use Airspan for Wimax? Michael Baird wrote: It was interesting, but I was hoping for some more first hand experience reporting. Essentially the only explanation for improved range was a lower noise floor, which isn't a wimax thing, but a 3.65 thing. I think a lot of the 802.16d/e talk is market speak, I'm trying to get through that and establish technical reasons why one or the other is superior. Regards Michael Baird So the recent thread on Wimax was quite interesting. I need to read up on the different technologies involved. I believe that a fixed deployment is sufficient for many many many needs and markets (wireless local loop if you will). If people want mobility/end user wireless they can hang an 802.11 AP off the ethernet port of whatever CPE. Wimax directly to the end device doesn't make much sense to me, in most markets and use cases. Obviously if you are supporting a highly mobile workforce (say public sector type stuff) then it makes a lot more sense. It got me thinking... if one was a new WISP entering an un(der)served market, it seems that it would not make sense to deploy standard 802.11 gear, but rather Wimax gear in 3650Mhz. Is this an accurate assessment? One particular area that I'm targeting, doesn't have any broadband available (other then 3g from Verzion). So they would need to purchase CPE anyway, and it wouldn't be anything they could get from Best Buy (DSL or Cable modem). I'm in the process of negotiating access to the excluded areas (in Southern California), but it's been slow going. Once I gain access it will open up many areas to some sorely needed competition. So who are the vendors in this space worth considering? What are peoples experiences with the sales process (both pre and post sales engineering) etc etc. - --- WISPA Wants You! Join today! http://signup.wispa.org
Re: [WISPA] 3650Mhz and Wimax Vendors
Jeff, Can you or anyone expand on the 3.65 802.16d scalability topic? How is the GPS sync and channel reuse on your product? Is it merly to be able to tightly accomodate 3 BTS in 21 mhz? or can i reuse channels per site? Can i install 6 base stations with 3 channels? have Towers close by and reuse channels among them? Can I instal a 90 deg 4 sector tower with just 2 channels? Gino From: wireless-boun...@wispa.org on behalf of Jeff Booher Sent: Wed 4/22/2009 8:33 PM To: 'WISPA General List' Subject: Re: [WISPA] 3650Mhz and Wimax Vendors All, I work for a vendor ( Aperto ) so take this as you will. Like most vendors out there there are differences for everything. Veccima is a pico solution, which means that they are using a wavesat chipset on the base and CPE, so the major difference between veccima and alvarion and Aperto would be PPS, QOS, features, throughput, and scalablity. Aperto and Redline are pretty close in PPS, and alvarion and veccima are less, with Airspan and tranzeo having the lowest pps. From a cost perspective it looks like this: Pricing Redline : 1 ( 3 sector base 30k street, cpe 400 ) Alvarion: 2 (3 sector base 24k street, cpe 350-400 ) Airspan 3 ( 3 sector base 22k street, cpe 400-500 ) Aperto: 4 ( 3 sector base 20k street, cpe 280-400 ) Veccima: 5 (3 sector base 17k street, cpe 250-350) Tranzeo 6: ( 3 sector base 6k street, cpe 250-350 ) PPS / # of clients supported realistically 1. Aperto ( 30k pps / sector ) 2. Redline claims to be in the same range, but I havent verifed this 3. Alvarion ( 4000 pps ) 4. Veccima ( same range as alvarion ) 5. airspan ( low ) 6. Tranzeo ( only supports 30 clients ) Throughput: Almost everyone supports around 20mb / sec on a 7mhz channel, except alvarion which only supports 12mb on a 5mhz channel. The biggest factors to consider is PPS if you are doing voice or want to support a high # of subs per tower site, as you are limited to 3 channels in 3.65ghz. Price is a consideration, but the biggest issue with Tranzeo is they have no sync port on the base station so you could have interference issues when you try to deploy 3 on a tower ( you need 14mhz seperation if you don't have sync with wimax ) So in conclusion- want a cheap solution to support 30 subs of a single sector? Tranzeo is a good bet. Want something more carrier class? Redline or Aperto are a good fit. The final consideration is QOS. We recently were selected by a customer because of this and when they compared EVERYONE here we had by far the most Stable quality of service, and by far the most networking features. Aperto also holds several wimax patents in regards to QOS. Finally we also have multiple frequenices, like 5.8, 5.4, 4.9, 2.5 solutions so you wont be tied to one band. I think only Airspan supports 5ghz in Wimax, except for us. Jeff Booher Director of Sales, North America www.apertonet.com jboo...@apertonet.com jefftho...@fastmail.fm 24/7: 206-455-4950 This email may contain material that is confidential, privileged and/or work product for the sole use of the intended recipient. Any review, reliance or distribution by others without express permission is strictly prohibited. If you are not the intended recipient, please contact the sender and delete all copies. -Original Message- From: wireless-boun...@wispa.org [mailto:wireless-boun...@wispa.org] On Behalf Of Christopher Hair Sent: Wednesday, April 22, 2009 11:58 AM To: 'WISPA General List' Subject: Re: [WISPA] 3650Mhz and Wimax Vendors We're also looking to deploy Wimax at a couple of our tower locations to provide higher bandwidth to business customers and take a load off some of our 900 APs. One vendor we are looking at is Vecima Networks. Anyone out there using VistaMAX 3.65 GHz from Vecima. I would be very interested in some real world experiences with this vendor. Pro and cons... Thanks in Advance Chris What he said. :) Seriously I'm interested in actual experiences. Not moans and gripes and arm chair speculation. I'm very interested in deploying Wimax technology and want real world information and actual operator feedback. Michael Baird wrote: Matt, I appreciate your perspective, but I've already read through the archives and with Wimax technology what was valid yesterday might not be valid today. I'm not interested in a holy war, we are certainly going to deploy Wimax in the near future, I just want to set expectations properly before we are mounting the gear on the tower, and reading marketing info from Alverion/Tranzeo/Aperto certainly doesn't help clear up the differences and advantages to the technology. Regards Michael Baird Those of us operators who actually have experience in the field with the gear tend to avoid posting to threads about WiMAX because the threads quickly devolve. I suggest you read the archives of this mailing list. To summarize though; operators who use WiMAX like it and think the technology
Re: [WISPA] 3650Mhz and Wimax Vendors
We have several customers in the market with trials or actually deployed. I cant help if they all havent gotten their FCC licenses *duck*, or fully executed in their plans. Remember as well, not EVERYONE uses 3.65ghz, and many customers use 5.8 or 5.4. Actually you can help. As a participant in the 3650 ecosystem you should be highly interested in everyone playing by the same rules. After all, if 3650 gets ruined you'll have a hard time selling 3650 radios. As far as Tolly marcus being employed by aperto, he does work as a contractor for Wireless Connections in sales, but is actively engaged in deploying his networks throughout his focused regions. Its not all however, 3.65ghz. We don't actually make a press release every time we win an operator account either, nor do any other manufacturers. Additionally, in 3.65ghz, I don't believe alvarion is shipping a fully implemented true e system but rather a modified D system with diversity and MRC. That may be, but Aperto did issue a press release for one customer. And, it turns out that customer only has one radio authorization. Further, you mention Tolly Marcus, but what about you? Did you not represent yourself at WiMAX World as a Zing employee? What are people supposed to think given the situation? Did Zing pick Aperto based on merit or an employee relationship? Does Zing have more than one Aperto radio deployed? Either they haven't deployed many radios or they have done so illegally. Both possibilities seem to make them a poor choice for Aperto to use as a representative customer. This is especially true given both Patrick and your statements regarding how little Aperto issues press releases. Shouldn't that mean the press releases actually issued are more important? Remember as well we didn't release 3.650 product until about 6 months after Redline, so you cant expect there to be a lot out there for you to find in the FCC database. As well, we have a lot more history, more products, and actually more carrier customers than Redline does internationally and in the US. If you would like a list of our US or international customer base, feel free to hit me off list. Sure I'll take a list. Finally I find that many operators recommend what they buy: in your case you bought a bunch of Redline. Most folks would never make a reccmeondation for another solution esp when they work for a publically traded company, that would look pretty bad wouldn't it? You have your Bias, and will likely stick to that. With the same thing in mind, your business model is quite unique in the market as you sell large PTP connections and not multipoint connections to small business / consumer. Redline may be a good fit for you then. Please however don't make any judgements on our product when you have never tested it, deployed it, received a quotation, or talked to one of our many customers. You must not have read my post thoroughly. I specifically pointed out that I don't have any direct experience with Aperto. However, I needed to provide a reasoned response as to why I didn't suggest Aperto as a WiMAX vendor. -Matt WISPA Wants You! Join today! http://signup.wispa.org/ WISPA Wireless List: wireless@wispa.org Subscribe/Unsubscribe: http://lists.wispa.org/mailman/listinfo/wireless Archives: http://lists.wispa.org/pipermail/wireless/
Re: [WISPA] 3650Mhz and Wimax Vendors
Excellent replies! Thank you! Sent via BlackBerry from T-Mobile -Original Message- From: Jeff Booher jefftho...@fastmail.fm Date: Wed, 22 Apr 2009 17:04:34 To: 'WISPA General List'wireless@wispa.org Subject: Re: [WISPA] 3650Mhz and Wimax Vendors Folks, IMHO, It really comes down to a cost benefit analysis. So an 802.11 or canopy system might run you a lot less CAPEX, but it carries more OPEX. So if in a given tower site you pay 200 / mo per antenna deployed on a tower, wimax might be cheaper than a lower system that cannot scale to say, 100-250 subscribers effectively. In addition to backhaul costs if you go carrier class. So lets break down the real costs: Cell radius= 30km Wimax Sector, carrier class: 7,500 ( 20k ) on a lease of 36 months, 750 per month PTP licensed radio: 12,000 on a lease of 36 months, 500 per month. Cost per subscriber: 299 (150 after install paid by customer ) ARPU per subscriber: 60 ( voice + data package ) Lease per tower, 3 sectors+ backhaul and : 1000 Total subscriber count per tower: 500 ( 5 month build out, 100 subs per mo ) Calculate it out and you show 270k in annualized revenue for 1 tower site, that can easily support this model for a basic internet plus phone service with no hiccups, and likely still have capacity left up to 750 subs on 3 sectors. Yes the rules of oversubscription apply, you cant sell 750 business grade circuits. The point is for a TCO, that's one tower site to cover a 20km radius, meaning less leases per month of 1k or more, so isntead of 4 tower sites to cover this area ( and pay 4k per month ) If you are just calculating your break point on your tower costs, you break even at a 100 subs per month click, at 3 months in. On your subscriber stations, if you carry the cost, it takes 6 months per subscriber. However on a 12 month basis you are @ 270k with 170k in cost, or 100k in profit. MOT canopy example Cell radius= 10km Cascade networks canopy system: 3 per tower, 9 sectors: 2500 x 9 = 20,000 PTP licensed radio: 48,000 on a lease of 36 months, 3000 per month. Cost per subscriber: 250 (150 after install paid by customer ) ARPU per subscriber: 30- data only package Lease per tower, 3 sectors+ backhaul and : 1000 Total subscriber count per tower: 150 ( 5 month build out, 100 subs per mo ) Tower sites: 3 Revenue per MO @ 500 subscribers 15,000. ( 150k a year in revenue ) So since you cant really effectively provide carrier class voice you sell only data. To cover the same area with 1 tower it takes you 3 towers which triples your OPEX for towers and triples the # of base stations needed, as well as triples the backhaul costs, while impacting where you are with your revenue. - Jeff -Original Message- From: wireless-boun...@wispa.org [mailto:wireless-boun...@wispa.org] On Behalf Of Matt Liotta Sent: Wednesday, April 22, 2009 11:02 AM To: WISPA General List Subject: Re: [WISPA] 3650Mhz and Wimax Vendors Those of us operators who actually have experience in the field with the gear tend to avoid posting to threads about WiMAX because the threads quickly devolve. I suggest you read the archives of this mailing list. To summarize though; operators who use WiMAX like it and think the technology is actually different and better than what else is out there. The people who don't use WiMAX think it is overpriced and not particularly interesting. -Matt On Apr 22, 2009, at 1:41 PM, Charles Wyble wrote: I'm looking for more operational experience and end user experience. Certainly good technology contributes to that, but that isn't my primary goal. Michael Baird wrote: It was interesting, but I was hoping for some more first hand experience reporting. Essentially the only explanation for improved range was a lower noise floor, which isn't a wimax thing, but a 3.65 thing. I think a lot of the 802.16d/e talk is market speak, I'm trying to get through that and establish technical reasons why one or the other is superior. Regards Michael Baird So the recent thread on Wimax was quite interesting. I need to read up on the different technologies involved. I believe that a fixed deployment is sufficient for many many many needs and markets (wireless local loop if you will). If people want mobility/end user wireless they can hang an 802.11 AP off the ethernet port of whatever CPE. Wimax directly to the end device doesn't make much sense to me, in most markets and use cases. Obviously if you are supporting a highly mobile workforce (say public sector type stuff) then it makes a lot more sense. It got me thinking... if one was a new WISP entering an un(der)served market, it seems that it would not make sense to deploy standard 802.11 gear, but rather Wimax gear in 3650Mhz. Is this an accurate assessment? One particular area that I'm targeting, doesn't have any broadband available (other then 3g from Verzion). So they would need to purchase CPE anyway, and it wouldn't
Re: [WISPA] 3650Mhz and Wimax Vendors
That may be, but Aperto did issue a press release for one customer. And, it turns out that customer only has one radio authorization. Further, you mention Tolly Marcus, but what about you? Did you not represent yourself at WiMAX World as a Zing employee? What are people supposed to think given the situation? Did Zing pick Aperto based on merit or an employee relationship? Does Zing have more than one Aperto radio deployed? Either they haven't deployed many radios or they have done so illegally. Both possibilities seem to make them a poor choice for Aperto to use as a representative customer. This is especially true given both Patrick and your statements regarding how little Aperto issues press releases. Shouldn't that mean the press releases actually issued are more important? It turns out I made a mistake. In further reading it appears that Zing is not the only customer Aperto issued a press release for. There was also a press release issued for NextPhase Wireless now called MetroConnect. Interestingly, MetroConnect has zero radio authorizations. Also of interest is the following quote from the Aperto press release: This is the first of many significant wins we expect to announce this year in the 3.65 GHz band in the U.S., said Manish Gupta, Vice President of Marketing Alliances for Aperto Networks and WiMAX Forum Board Member. The above quote seems to suggest to the reader that MetroConnect is a significant win and that Aperto would announce additional significant wins in the future. To date the only other announcement was Zing. Now maybe MetroConnect bought a bunch of radios and didn't bother to register them with the FCC. Of course, you have to wonder how significant of a win MetroConnect could be when during the quarter the press release was issued MetroConnect's SEC filings state they had $2k of cash on hand. Since that time MetroConnect's revenue has declined each quarter and now they state their cash on hand is $0. -Matt WISPA Wants You! Join today! http://signup.wispa.org/ WISPA Wireless List: wireless@wispa.org Subscribe/Unsubscribe: http://lists.wispa.org/mailman/listinfo/wireless Archives: http://lists.wispa.org/pipermail/wireless/
Re: [WISPA] 3650Mhz and Wimax Vendors
On Wed, 2009-04-22 at 22:02 -0400, mlio...@r337.com wrote: MetroConnect's SEC filings state they had $2k of cash on hand. Since that time MetroConnect's revenue has declined each quarter and now they state their cash on hand is $0. This thread has degraded WAY beyond useful. If you want to argue petty points, do so OFFLIST. If you wish to provide information that is useful, then please do so. -- * Butch Evans * Professional Network Consultation* * http://www.butchevans.com/* Network Engineering * * http://www.wispa.org/ * WISPA Board Member * * http://blog.butchevans.com/ * Wired or Wireless Networks * WISPA Wants You! Join today! http://signup.wispa.org/ WISPA Wireless List: wireless@wispa.org Subscribe/Unsubscribe: http://lists.wispa.org/mailman/listinfo/wireless Archives: http://lists.wispa.org/pipermail/wireless/
Re: [WISPA] 3650Mhz and Wimax Vendors
*sighs* I did my best to keep it very focused. --Original Message-- From: Butch Evans Sender: wireless-boun...@wispa.org To: WISPA General List ReplyTo: WISPA General List Subject: Re: [WISPA] 3650Mhz and Wimax Vendors Sent: Apr 22, 2009 7:49 PM On Wed, 2009-04-22 at 22:02 -0400, mlio...@r337.com wrote: MetroConnect's SEC filings state they had $2k of cash on hand. Since that time MetroConnect's revenue has declined each quarter and now they state their cash on hand is $0. This thread has degraded WAY beyond useful. If you want to argue petty points, do so OFFLIST. If you wish to provide information that is useful, then please do so. -- * Butch Evans * Professional Network Consultation* * http://www.butchevans.com/* Network Engineering * * http://www.wispa.org/ * WISPA Board Member * * http://blog.butchevans.com/ * Wired or Wireless Networks * WISPA Wants You! Join today! http://signup.wispa.org/ WISPA Wireless List: wireless@wispa.org Subscribe/Unsubscribe: http://lists.wispa.org/mailman/listinfo/wireless Archives: http://lists.wispa.org/pipermail/wireless/ Sent via BlackBerry from T-Mobile WISPA Wants You! Join today! http://signup.wispa.org/ WISPA Wireless List: wireless@wispa.org Subscribe/Unsubscribe: http://lists.wispa.org/mailman/listinfo/wireless Archives: http://lists.wispa.org/pipermail/wireless/
Re: [WISPA] 3650Mhz and Wimax Vendors
I understand Matt wanting to stay out of it. We've all been here before. It never went anywhere same as Moto vs. Mikrotik. - Mike Hammett Intelligent Computing Solutions http://www.ics-il.com -- From: Butch Evans but...@butchevans.com Sent: Wednesday, April 22, 2009 3:46 PM To: WISPA General List wireless@wispa.org Subject: Re: [WISPA] 3650Mhz and Wimax Vendors On Wed, 2009-04-22 at 14:01 -0400, Matt Liotta wrote: Those of us operators who actually have experience in the field with the gear tend to avoid posting to threads about WiMAX because the threads quickly devolve. I suggest you read the archives of this mailing list. To summarize though; operators who use WiMAX like it and think the technology is actually different and better than what else is out there. The people who don't use WiMAX think it is overpriced and not particularly interesting. WiMAX obviously has some things to offer. It was written specifically as an outdoor wireless specification. I think your summarization is a little short of the truth, though. It would be nice, IMO, if you, as an operator who acutally [has] experience in the field with the gear would at least answer the question instead of sitting on a high-horse. -- * Butch Evans * Professional Network Consultation* * http://www.butchevans.com/* Network Engineering * * http://www.wispa.org/ * WISPA Board Member * * http://blog.butchevans.com/ * Wired or Wireless Networks * WISPA Wants You! Join today! http://signup.wispa.org/ WISPA Wireless List: wireless@wispa.org Subscribe/Unsubscribe: http://lists.wispa.org/mailman/listinfo/wireless Archives: http://lists.wispa.org/pipermail/wireless/ WISPA Wants You! Join today! http://signup.wispa.org/ WISPA Wireless List: wireless@wispa.org Subscribe/Unsubscribe: http://lists.wispa.org/mailman/listinfo/wireless Archives: http://lists.wispa.org/pipermail/wireless/
Re: [WISPA] 3650Mhz and Wimax Vendors
Cell radius= 30km The point is for a TCO, that's one tower site to cover a 20km radius, meaning less leases per month of 1k or more, so isntead of 4 tower sites to cover this area ( and pay 4k per month ) So...how are you breaking the laws of physics with this system? Unless you are serving the middle of the dessert then you probably need to back your cell radius down to say 3km. I see above you use 2 different cell radius figures. Is it possible you are overstating expectations in a big way here Jeff? I am a proponent of WiMax but I am getting sick and tired of seeing bloated specs to sell systems. It is NOT something I want to see and I feel that these false representations have hurt WiMax adoption for years. Scriv WISPA Wants You! Join today! http://signup.wispa.org/ WISPA Wireless List: wireless@wispa.org Subscribe/Unsubscribe: http://lists.wispa.org/mailman/listinfo/wireless Archives: http://lists.wispa.org/pipermail/wireless/
