Re: [WISPA] Form 445
The form does not mean that you are compliant. It's simply to let the FCC know where you are at in the process. Just tell them where you are at in getting compliant. You need to tell them what your plan is. Laters, marlon - Original Message - From: "Martha Huizenga" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> To: "WISPA General List" Sent: Tuesday, February 13, 2007 11:06 AM Subject: Re: [WISPA] Form 445 Ideas about how to fill out the form if you don't know how you would comply yet? Does anyone know if this is a required field? Can you just put "not sure yet"? Are there industry standards - can we put that we would follow the WISPA standard if it is not yet written? I appreciate the links from people - Cisco - works if you have Cisco installed and NetTap, not sure if this works for me or not yet. Martha John Scrivner wrote: I have not spent one penny on CALEA yet. I know I will but I bet it will not be much and I bet this will all look like "sky is falling" dialog when it is all said and done. I remember the day that K-Mart said they were going to give away free dialup nationwide. I think that was around 2000. Now that scared me. Funny thing was I grew more that month than any other prior. CALEA does not scare me at all. The only thing the "big boys" are getting from all of this is a good laugh at folks who decide this is going to be a make or break for them. Fear is not worthy of your time. Stop worrying and run your business. Let WISPA take the heat of making CALEA something you can dodge with ease. That is our job. If CALEA takes more than $250 bucks out of your pocket and 2 hours away from your business then I will feel I have not done a very good job. I could be wrong but you know what? I am not going to worry about it. :-) Scriv Rick Smith wrote: Was it "being alarmist" to shout "the redcoats are coming!" ? I understand no one knows the format of the data yet. But the truth is that CALEA is an attempt to put the trigger there, get us to go broke funding it, and let "them" pull it any time they want... -Original Message- From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] On Behalf Of Butch Evans Sent: Tuesday, February 13, 2007 3:40 AM To: WISPA General List Subject: RE: [WISPA] Form 445 On Tue, 13 Feb 2007, wispa wrote: Uhmm, Butch... No, they're not "asking for a means". They're insisting that we build the tap into our network, at our expense, prior to a request ( whether we got any requests or not ), to provide them data in a specific form. And what form is that data going to take? You don't know. You are being alarmist, in that you are getting bent out of shape over something you don't even KNOW. THAT is what I said. The FACT is that the government MUST have a means to gathering information for criminal prosecutions. Even you can't deny that. That means (when it comes to Internet traffic) MUST happen at the ISP level. WHY? Because MANY ISPs HIDE THEIR CUSTOMERS. It happens behind every ISP who decides that NAT is "necessary". Sorry, but that is one thing that makes it necessary for them to gather data on YOUR network. They HAVE to be able to gather data on a specific suspect. THAT is precisely what I said, nothing more, and nothing less. REALLY? Maybe when I read these words from YOUR email address, it was a government conspiracy that sent them to point the finger at you. Here are SOME of the things you said: I said that not resisting regulation would kill us. The process has begun. We marched in to be fleeced, smiling and bleating softly. Been nice knowing you folks. and here the federal govenrment has just taken wholesale control of the ISP business. and here You can bet that any "industry" standard derived will derived with the input from the telecoms to bankrupt as many small ISP's as possible. I predict that in 2 years there will not be enough WISP's left to fund WISPA at all, unless the dues go up on the order 20 to 50 times. and here we need to work at launching the largest "industry and public" backlash ever, to end this sort of stuff... Perhaps I'm the only one reading "alarmist" into your words... Up to this point, the LEA's had to pony up the means of tapping and grabbing the data they wanted. Which, in my view, is fair and equitable. Why should we all pay for and design a network around some system few will ever use? Read the documentation again...I'm not here to educate you, but the fact is that your network is NOT going to have to be "designed around" anything. CALEA was NOT written for ISP's or VOIP. The FCC and DOJ have broadened its meaning all on their own. No, it wasn't written for that purpose. But, the world is not the same as it
Re: CALEA - HOW? RE: [WISPA] Form 445
On Tue, 13 Feb 2007, John Scrivner wrote: Let me ask a stupid question. Why is it not the FEDS job to translate data as they see fit? George, please ask that question when you see the FBI. This one is very important to me. I am also copying our attorney, Kris Twomey, on this particular issue. This sounds like a bunch of crapola if Uncle Sam is expecting us to manipulate / translate the data in any way beyond the raw form. This sounds like their job to me. It's not a stupid question at all. We are not required to decrypt or interpret the data we supply to the LEA at all. Several of these questions are addressed here: http://www.askcalea.net/faqs.html (That's the FBI's CALEA website) -- Butch Evans Network Engineering and Security Consulting 573-276-2879 http://www.butchevans.com/ My calendar: http://tinyurl.com/y24ad6 Training Partners: http://tinyurl.com/smfkf Mikrotik Certified Consultant http://www.mikrotik.com/consultants.html -- WISPA Wireless List: wireless@wispa.org Subscribe/Unsubscribe: http://lists.wispa.org/mailman/listinfo/wireless Archives: http://lists.wispa.org/pipermail/wireless/
Re: [WISPA] Form 445
Anthony, I hate to burst your bubble. This is a quote from the following page; http://www.fcc.gov/calea/ "Common carriers, facilities-based broadband Internet access providers, and providers of interconnected Voice over Internet Protocol (VoIP) service – all three types of entities are defined to be “telecommunications carriers” for purposes of CALEA section 102, 47 U.S.C. § 1001 – must comply with the CALEA obligations set forth in CALEA section 103, 47 U.S.C. § 1002. See CALEA First Report and Order (rel. Sept. 23, 2005)." Following is the link for CALEA First Report and Order; http://hraunfoss.fcc.gov/edocs_public/attachmatch/FCC-05-153A1.pdf Page 5 gives the definition of "telecommunications carrier" according to CALEA. Regards, Dawn DiPietro Anthony Will wrote: My understanding is that only "broadband providers" are responsible to be compliant. In order to be a "broadband provider" you have to offer symmetrical 200kb+ service. Anthony Broadband Corp. Jason wrote: 1. Here's a question: for those who don't have symmetric rates to/from the internet (I have 1meg down and , supposedly 128k up, but often it's something like 24 up, satellite you know...) streaming just will not work. Can we store and forward? Or in general, are they taking into account the technology being used and its capabilities? 2. Anyone know anything about these (price etc): http://www.netoptics.com/products/product_family.asp?cid=1&Section=products&menuitem=1&filter=3 they make it sound as though they are most of the solution: http://www.netoptics.com/pdf/CALEA_Brief.pdf Jason George Rogato wrote: Well ask a question and we'll see. Guess if I'm supposed to be the messenger, it's me. If someone wants me to go and ask ridiculous politically radical questions, then forget about it. They can just dial the number and ask themselves. But a non political real question is no problem. George JohnnyO wrote: George - who decides what is "reasonable" or not ? Is this a personal decision ? Sorry to stick a thorn in here, but, I think Mark's questions are valid and should be asked on behalf of WISPA. JohnnyO -Original Message- From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] On Behalf Of George Rogato Sent: Monday, February 12, 2007 11:44 PM To: WISPA General List Subject: Re: [WISPA] Form 445 wispa wrote: You actually think that the "big guys" will actually let that happen? Yeah, I can see it now, our upstreams turning CALEA compliance into a profit center. Anyways if you want to bring your own tape recorder up to the feds and ask them some questions, go for it. But the offer still stands. Any reasonable question regarding the implementation of CALEA compliance I will be glad to ask. George -- WISPA Wireless List: wireless@wispa.org Subscribe/Unsubscribe: http://lists.wispa.org/mailman/listinfo/wireless Archives: http://lists.wispa.org/pipermail/wireless/
Re: CALEA - HOW? RE: [WISPA] Form 445
Let me ask a stupid question. Why is it not the FEDS job to translate data as they see fit? George, please ask that question when you see the FBI. This one is very important to me. I am also copying our attorney, Kris Twomey, on this particular issue. This sounds like a bunch of crapola if Uncle Sam is expecting us to manipulate / translate the data in any way beyond the raw form. This sounds like their job to me. Scriv Jeff Broadwick wrote: Hi John, The two I'm aware of are SS8 and Verint. They are very expensive. The mediation device takes in the IP traffic from the ISP's router and translates it into the LAES format that the Feds require, and sends it along. Jeff -Original Message- From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] On Behalf Of John Scrivner Sent: Tuesday, February 13, 2007 2:02 PM To: WISPA General List Subject: Re: CALEA - HOW? RE: [WISPA] Form 445 What can you tell us about the "mediation box"? Is this something we can build a few of as WISPA and send to members who need it? Thanks, Scriv Jeff Broadwick wrote: Actually, the standard for connecting the mediation box to the LEA (known as LAES) has been finalized. The standard for connecting from the router to the mediation box (T1-IAS I believe) will be finalized later this month. -Original Message- From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] On Behalf Of Butch Evans Sent: Tuesday, February 13, 2007 2:28 AM To: WISPA General List Subject: Re: CALEA - HOW? RE: [WISPA] Form 445 On Tue, 13 Feb 2007, Rick Smith wrote: OK, Don't point me to some confusing URL I don't have time (or patience) to read about how to comply with CALEA. The most difficult thing about the CALEA compliance issue is that the format of the data has not, yet, been finalized. This makes it impossible (IMNSHO) to determine exactly how compliance is gonna look. Here is what IS known: 1. You must be able to send the data (in a yet to be determined format) via a secure connection to the requesting LEA (law enforcement agency) 2. The LEA will supply you with a subpoena requesting information on a specific customer. 3. You must be able to capture (and forward) ALL traffic to and from that customer. This means even traffic between that customer and another of your customers, so a sniffer at the border is NOT enough. 4. The "target" cannot know his data is being logged. I don't think I missed any of the "major points". I have heard that PCAP (tcpdump or MT packet sniffer) format is possibly going to be an approved format, but it CANNOT be a "store and forward". In other words, it MUST be streamed to the LEA. I have heard, but I can't confirm (since, I am only an associate member) that the principle member's list has better insight into what WISPA is doing on behalf of the membership. (This was gleaned from various posts on the mailing list here, and is just an assumption.) Either way, membership is a good idea. ;-) If I missed anything, perhaps someone here can point it out. -- Butch Evans Network Engineering and Security Consulting 573-276-2879 http://www.butchevans.com/ My calendar: http://tinyurl.com/y24ad6 Training Partners: http://tinyurl.com/smfkf Mikrotik Certified Consultant http://www.mikrotik.com/consultants.html -- WISPA Wireless List: wireless@wispa.org Subscribe/Unsubscribe: http://lists.wispa.org/mailman/listinfo/wireless Archives: http://lists.wispa.org/pipermail/wireless/ -- WISPA Wireless List: wireless@wispa.org Subscribe/Unsubscribe: http://lists.wispa.org/mailman/listinfo/wireless Archives: http://lists.wispa.org/pipermail/wireless/
RE: [WISPA] Form 445
John Scrivner said " I think we can assume from this point forward that Mark wants nothing to do with this effort other than to derail the process if possible. I assure you we are trying to do our best to balance the needs of the government and the needs of our WISP operators who we serve." John - with all due respect - I do not "assume" or "think" or "believe" Mark is trying to derail the process. Mark has a valid point and he sees things from a different perspective sometimes. That is what makes us more powerful as a group of operators is to have insight and thoughts and opinions from as many different people as possible. Some people may not like or agree with what Mark has said - but the same people that personally attacked him over this issue, have in the past said some really stupid remarks / comments as well and from them. Regards, JohnnyO -Original Message- From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] On Behalf Of John Scrivner Sent: Tuesday, February 13, 2007 12:46 PM To: WISPA General List Subject: Re: [WISPA] Form 445 Mark said: >So, you think the big guys aren't going to lobby for things that benefit >them, while we have no voice or consideration because don't have billions to >lobby with? > > We have people going to D.C. to meet with the FBI directly to help get this all worked out. How much more representation can you have? I have not heard anything but supportive efforts coming from WISPA and the government officials we have spoken to about this. There is no conspiracy to do anything but stop the bad guys. I don't want people using my network to hurt other people so from that standpoint I think there can be positive effects of this. I do not like to see government snooping but I do not know how else they can find and stop criminals who use the Internet. Any other scenario I can think of seems worse than what is being proposed. That is the agenda. If anyone has questions they think are worthy of response from the FBI please send them on to this list. George will be going there to get us a path for developing a standard by which our fellow WISP operators can run their businesss without giving too much thought to CALEA. The only people who will go broke because of CALEA will be those who refuse to follow the law. For those people I am guessing CALEA will be only one factor which leads to their demise. Scriv -- WISPA Wireless List: wireless@wispa.org Subscribe/Unsubscribe: http://lists.wispa.org/mailman/listinfo/wireless Archives: http://lists.wispa.org/pipermail/wireless/ -- No virus found in this incoming message. Checked by AVG Free Edition. Version: 7.5.441 / Virus Database: 268.17.37/682 - Release Date: 2/12/2007 1:23 PM -- WISPA Wireless List: wireless@wispa.org Subscribe/Unsubscribe: http://lists.wispa.org/mailman/listinfo/wireless Archives: http://lists.wispa.org/pipermail/wireless/
Re: CALEA - HOW? RE: [WISPA] Form 445
Butch, Here's a decient paper based on the european version of calea. http://www.aqsacomna.com/us/articles/LIIPWhitePaperv21.pdf Ed On Tue, 13 Feb 2007 13:33:55 -0600 (CST) Butch Evans <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote: > SO..for a WISPA built "mediation box", you could simply put together > a Linux server and a $100 switch. But, in the end, we have to wait > to see what format is required before it is possible to truly answer > this question. -- WISPA Wireless List: wireless@wispa.org Subscribe/Unsubscribe: http://lists.wispa.org/mailman/listinfo/wireless Archives: http://lists.wispa.org/pipermail/wireless/
RE: CALEA - HOW? RE: [WISPA] Form 445
Hi John, The two I'm aware of are SS8 and Verint. They are very expensive. The mediation device takes in the IP traffic from the ISP's router and translates it into the LAES format that the Feds require, and sends it along. Jeff -Original Message- From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] On Behalf Of John Scrivner Sent: Tuesday, February 13, 2007 2:02 PM To: WISPA General List Subject: Re: CALEA - HOW? RE: [WISPA] Form 445 What can you tell us about the "mediation box"? Is this something we can build a few of as WISPA and send to members who need it? Thanks, Scriv Jeff Broadwick wrote: >Actually, the standard for connecting the mediation box to the LEA (known as >LAES) has been finalized. The standard for connecting from the router to >the mediation box (T1-IAS I believe) will be finalized later this month. > >-Original Message- >From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] On >Behalf Of Butch Evans >Sent: Tuesday, February 13, 2007 2:28 AM >To: WISPA General List >Subject: Re: CALEA - HOW? RE: [WISPA] Form 445 > >On Tue, 13 Feb 2007, Rick Smith wrote: > > > >>OK, Don't point me to some confusing URL I don't have time (or >>patience) to read about how to comply with CALEA. >> >> > >The most difficult thing about the CALEA compliance issue is that the format >of the data has not, yet, been finalized. This makes it impossible (IMNSHO) >to determine exactly how compliance is gonna look. Here is what IS known: > >1. You must be able to send the data (in a yet to be determined >format) via a secure connection to the requesting LEA (law enforcement >agency) > >2. The LEA will supply you with a subpoena requesting information on a >specific customer. > >3. You must be able to capture (and forward) ALL traffic to and from that >customer. This means even traffic between that customer and another of your >customers, so a sniffer at the border is NOT enough. > >4. The "target" cannot know his data is being logged. > >I don't think I missed any of the "major points". I have heard that PCAP >(tcpdump or MT packet sniffer) format is possibly going to be an approved >format, but it CANNOT be a "store and forward". In other words, it MUST be >streamed to the LEA. > >I have heard, but I can't confirm (since, I am only an associate >member) that the principle member's list has better insight into what WISPA >is doing on behalf of the membership. (This was gleaned from various posts >on the mailing list here, and is just an >assumption.) Either way, membership is a good idea. ;-) > >If I missed anything, perhaps someone here can point it out. > >-- >Butch Evans >Network Engineering and Security Consulting >573-276-2879 >http://www.butchevans.com/ >My calendar: http://tinyurl.com/y24ad6 >Training Partners: http://tinyurl.com/smfkf Mikrotik Certified Consultant >http://www.mikrotik.com/consultants.html >-- >WISPA Wireless List: wireless@wispa.org > >Subscribe/Unsubscribe: >http://lists.wispa.org/mailman/listinfo/wireless > >Archives: http://lists.wispa.org/pipermail/wireless/ > > > > -- WISPA Wireless List: wireless@wispa.org Subscribe/Unsubscribe: http://lists.wispa.org/mailman/listinfo/wireless Archives: http://lists.wispa.org/pipermail/wireless/ -- WISPA Wireless List: wireless@wispa.org Subscribe/Unsubscribe: http://lists.wispa.org/mailman/listinfo/wireless Archives: http://lists.wispa.org/pipermail/wireless/
Re: CALEA - HOW? RE: [WISPA] Form 445
On Tue, 13 Feb 2007, John Scrivner wrote:
What can you tell us about the "mediation box"? Is this something
we can build a few of as WISPA and send to members who need it?
Well, we are all in the land of unknown right now. The format of
the data is yet to be determined. Let's make a supposition, though.
If (as I suspect) PCAP is going to be an acceptable standard, then
MOST wisps already have in place what they will need, except perhaps
the "mediation box", as it's been called. PCAP is a data format
that is created by utilities such as tcpdump and others. Also,
let's suppose (because it's not finalized) that streaming is not
going to be a necessary component of compliance. With these 2
suppositions, we have the "ideal" situation. We can easily gather
the data using existing tools (least Mikrotik supports what is
needed, not sure about others). If an ISP does NOT have a strong
edge device (such as MT or Imagestream), then they will have to put
in a hub or switch capable of creating a "mirror" port, that can be
used to capture the data with a linux server. Using Mikrotik (for
example), the data can be streamed to an internal server ("mediation
server") where it can be stored for LEA retrieval. For MOST
subpoenas, this will be the end of the requirement.
SO..for a WISPA built "mediation box", you could simply put together
a Linux server and a $100 switch. But, in the end, we have to wait
to see what format is required before it is possible to truly answer
this question.
For some interesting reading, try this:
http://www.opencalea.org/NANOG39-Lightning.pdf
The http://www.opencalea.org/ site is pretty useless for the time
being, but it looks promising.
--
Butch Evans
Network Engineering and Security Consulting
573-276-2879
http://www.butchevans.com/
My calendar: http://tinyurl.com/y24ad6
Training Partners: http://tinyurl.com/smfkf
Mikrotik Certified Consultant
http://www.mikrotik.com/consultants.html
--
WISPA Wireless List: wireless@wispa.org
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Re: [WISPA] Form 445
Me as well, if you didn't imply that from the private email this morning. Sandhills Wireless, LLC Sam Tetherow Sandhills Wireless Tim Wolfe wrote: Get me in there!. Include me in WISPA 445 Filing WaveCrazy Communications Rick Herrmann wrote: "Include me in WISPA 445 Filing" Zing LLC Thanks! -Original Message- From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] On Behalf Of John Scrivner Sent: Monday, February 12, 2007 2:44 PM To: [EMAIL PROTECTED]; wireless@wispa.org Subject: [WISPA] Form 445 If you are a paid WISPA Principal Member then you do not have to worry about filing your CALEA Form 445. Kris Twomey is handling it for all paid WISPA Principal Members who want it done for them. They are allowing later filing now. Kris will be filing on behalf of all paid WISPA Principal Members. All you have to do is reply to the email and say, "Include me in WISPA 445 Filing" and include your official, legal company name. That's it. Your filing will be complete.This is being done as a benefit of WISPA membership at NO CHARGE TO YOU. To take advantage of this offer you MUST respond within 24 hours, by no later than 3 pm Central time on Tuesday, Feb 13th. If you are not already a paid WISPA member then this is not available to you unless you get us $250 before noon tomorrow Central time and fill out the form at http://signup.wispa.org. John Scrivner President WISPA -- WISPA Wireless List: wireless@wispa.org Subscribe/Unsubscribe: http://lists.wispa.org/mailman/listinfo/wireless Archives: http://lists.wispa.org/pipermail/wireless/
Re: [WISPA] Form 445
I'm sure this branch of the thread has already been killed, but I haven't read that far yet :) wispa wrote: On Mon, 12 Feb 2007 21:04:37 -0800, George Rogato wrote I predict the little guy will end up giving all his subs publics and passing the ball to their upstreams, and probably-most likely for a price. I find it hard to believe this is not going to be an option. You actually think that the "big guys" will actually let that happen? Come on. What are you smoking? This is thier chance to wipe out all those pesky little guys and own it all. And the FCC and feds will cheer at the "order" forced from "chaos". Quite honestly I doubt Qwest (my only real competitor) could give a crap about my subs, they are more concerned on how to get customers away from cable. However I do doubt they are all that excited about CALEA on the data side of things either, it is more work for anyone involved although their budgets are larger and they do already have some infrastructure in place for this type of thing. We'll find out more Thursday when we meet at the Hoover Building in DC to talk to the FBI and Homeland Security about CALEA. If anyone has any questions they want answered, nows the time to put them in print. Yeah. "Could you please quote the constitutional authority for this, please cite relevant sections and paragraphs." Like this means anything in this day and age. You can quote the Constitution to a politician and most judges all you want but it will not alter reality. The federal government has well exceeded the rights granted it in the Constitution over a hundred years ago and they are not going to give them back to the states. Even if they did, you would see most states cede those rights back to the federal government. Deal with it, it is the political reality and so few people care enough it isn't going to change. Oh, and "What do you intend to do to prevent small neighborhood networks, informal internet access via voluntary and cooperative systems, free networks, and open and free networks from continuing to be non-compliant and even unaware of the requirements?" This is an interesting gray area. In most cases it would not even hit the radar until someone is "tapped" and they issue a warrant only to find out that it isn't the IP owners traffic. How the government proceeds from there will be interesting. I would be interested to know what the seattle folks are doing for this. Another interesting one is the free muni people. Sam Tetherow Sandhills Wireless I would like the answer to those on tape and in writing. And then we need to work at launching the largest "industry and public" backlash ever, to end this sort of stuff and ensure it NEVER comes back. Mark Koskenmaki <> Neofast, Inc Broadband for the Walla Walla Valley and Blue Mountains 541-969-8200 -- WISPA Wireless List: wireless@wispa.org Subscribe/Unsubscribe: http://lists.wispa.org/mailman/listinfo/wireless Archives: http://lists.wispa.org/pipermail/wireless/
Re: [WISPA] Form 445
Ideas about how to fill out the form if you don't know how you would comply yet? Does anyone know if this is a required field? Can you just put "not sure yet"? Are there industry standards - can we put that we would follow the WISPA standard if it is not yet written? I appreciate the links from people - Cisco - works if you have Cisco installed and NetTap, not sure if this works for me or not yet. Martha John Scrivner wrote: I have not spent one penny on CALEA yet. I know I will but I bet it will not be much and I bet this will all look like "sky is falling" dialog when it is all said and done. I remember the day that K-Mart said they were going to give away free dialup nationwide. I think that was around 2000. Now that scared me. Funny thing was I grew more that month than any other prior. CALEA does not scare me at all. The only thing the "big boys" are getting from all of this is a good laugh at folks who decide this is going to be a make or break for them. Fear is not worthy of your time. Stop worrying and run your business. Let WISPA take the heat of making CALEA something you can dodge with ease. That is our job. If CALEA takes more than $250 bucks out of your pocket and 2 hours away from your business then I will feel I have not done a very good job. I could be wrong but you know what? I am not going to worry about it. :-) Scriv Rick Smith wrote: Was it "being alarmist" to shout "the redcoats are coming!" ? I understand no one knows the format of the data yet. But the truth is that CALEA is an attempt to put the trigger there, get us to go broke funding it, and let "them" pull it any time they want... -Original Message- From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] On Behalf Of Butch Evans Sent: Tuesday, February 13, 2007 3:40 AM To: WISPA General List Subject: RE: [WISPA] Form 445 On Tue, 13 Feb 2007, wispa wrote: Uhmm, Butch... No, they're not "asking for a means". They're insisting that we build the tap into our network, at our expense, prior to a request ( whether we got any requests or not ), to provide them data in a specific form. And what form is that data going to take? You don't know. You are being alarmist, in that you are getting bent out of shape over something you don't even KNOW. THAT is what I said. The FACT is that the government MUST have a means to gathering information for criminal prosecutions. Even you can't deny that. That means (when it comes to Internet traffic) MUST happen at the ISP level. WHY? Because MANY ISPs HIDE THEIR CUSTOMERS. It happens behind every ISP who decides that NAT is "necessary". Sorry, but that is one thing that makes it necessary for them to gather data on YOUR network. They HAVE to be able to gather data on a specific suspect. THAT is precisely what I said, nothing more, and nothing less. REALLY? Maybe when I read these words from YOUR email address, it was a government conspiracy that sent them to point the finger at you. Here are SOME of the things you said: I said that not resisting regulation would kill us. The process has begun. We marched in to be fleeced, smiling and bleating softly. Been nice knowing you folks. and here the federal govenrment has just taken wholesale control of the ISP business. and here You can bet that any "industry" standard derived will derived with the input from the telecoms to bankrupt as many small ISP's as possible. I predict that in 2 years there will not be enough WISP's left to fund WISPA at all, unless the dues go up on the order 20 to 50 times. and here we need to work at launching the largest "industry and public" backlash ever, to end this sort of stuff... Perhaps I'm the only one reading "alarmist" into your words... Up to this point, the LEA's had to pony up the means of tapping and grabbing the data they wanted. Which, in my view, is fair and equitable. Why should we all pay for and design a network around some system few will ever use? Read the documentation again...I'm not here to educate you, but the fact is that your network is NOT going to have to be "designed around" anything. CALEA was NOT written for ISP's or VOIP. The FCC and DOJ have broadened its meaning all on their own. No, it wasn't written for that purpose. But, the world is not the same as it was when the CALEA laws were penned. Times change and so do the laws. My only suggestion is to do 2 things: 1. Like it or not, the law is the law, and you MUST follow it. If you decide to break the law, I hope you are caught and punished. 2. Don't ASSUME (you know about that word, right?) that every law is a government conspiracy to put you out of business. OH...it wouldn't hurt if you'd take your meds... -- WISPA Wireless List: wireless@wispa.org Subscribe/Unsubscribe: http://lists.wispa.org/mailman/listinfo/wireless Archives: http://lists.wispa.org/pipermail/wireless/
Re: CALEA - HOW? RE: [WISPA] Form 445
What can you tell us about the "mediation box"? Is this something we can build a few of as WISPA and send to members who need it? Thanks, Scriv Jeff Broadwick wrote: Actually, the standard for connecting the mediation box to the LEA (known as LAES) has been finalized. The standard for connecting from the router to the mediation box (T1-IAS I believe) will be finalized later this month. -Original Message- From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] On Behalf Of Butch Evans Sent: Tuesday, February 13, 2007 2:28 AM To: WISPA General List Subject: Re: CALEA - HOW? RE: [WISPA] Form 445 On Tue, 13 Feb 2007, Rick Smith wrote: OK, Don't point me to some confusing URL I don't have time (or patience) to read about how to comply with CALEA. The most difficult thing about the CALEA compliance issue is that the format of the data has not, yet, been finalized. This makes it impossible (IMNSHO) to determine exactly how compliance is gonna look. Here is what IS known: 1. You must be able to send the data (in a yet to be determined format) via a secure connection to the requesting LEA (law enforcement agency) 2. The LEA will supply you with a subpoena requesting information on a specific customer. 3. You must be able to capture (and forward) ALL traffic to and from that customer. This means even traffic between that customer and another of your customers, so a sniffer at the border is NOT enough. 4. The "target" cannot know his data is being logged. I don't think I missed any of the "major points". I have heard that PCAP (tcpdump or MT packet sniffer) format is possibly going to be an approved format, but it CANNOT be a "store and forward". In other words, it MUST be streamed to the LEA. I have heard, but I can't confirm (since, I am only an associate member) that the principle member's list has better insight into what WISPA is doing on behalf of the membership. (This was gleaned from various posts on the mailing list here, and is just an assumption.) Either way, membership is a good idea. ;-) If I missed anything, perhaps someone here can point it out. -- Butch Evans Network Engineering and Security Consulting 573-276-2879 http://www.butchevans.com/ My calendar: http://tinyurl.com/y24ad6 Training Partners: http://tinyurl.com/smfkf Mikrotik Certified Consultant http://www.mikrotik.com/consultants.html -- WISPA Wireless List: wireless@wispa.org Subscribe/Unsubscribe: http://lists.wispa.org/mailman/listinfo/wireless Archives: http://lists.wispa.org/pipermail/wireless/ -- WISPA Wireless List: wireless@wispa.org Subscribe/Unsubscribe: http://lists.wispa.org/mailman/listinfo/wireless Archives: http://lists.wispa.org/pipermail/wireless/
Re: [WISPA] Form 445
I have not spent one penny on CALEA yet. I know I will but I bet it will not be much and I bet this will all look like "sky is falling" dialog when it is all said and done. I remember the day that K-Mart said they were going to give away free dialup nationwide. I think that was around 2000. Now that scared me. Funny thing was I grew more that month than any other prior. CALEA does not scare me at all. The only thing the "big boys" are getting from all of this is a good laugh at folks who decide this is going to be a make or break for them. Fear is not worthy of your time. Stop worrying and run your business. Let WISPA take the heat of making CALEA something you can dodge with ease. That is our job. If CALEA takes more than $250 bucks out of your pocket and 2 hours away from your business then I will feel I have not done a very good job. I could be wrong but you know what? I am not going to worry about it. :-) Scriv Rick Smith wrote: Was it "being alarmist" to shout "the redcoats are coming!" ? I understand no one knows the format of the data yet. But the truth is that CALEA is an attempt to put the trigger there, get us to go broke funding it, and let "them" pull it any time they want... -Original Message- From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] On Behalf Of Butch Evans Sent: Tuesday, February 13, 2007 3:40 AM To: WISPA General List Subject: RE: [WISPA] Form 445 On Tue, 13 Feb 2007, wispa wrote: Uhmm, Butch... No, they're not "asking for a means". They're insisting that we build the tap into our network, at our expense, prior to a request ( whether we got any requests or not ), to provide them data in a specific form. And what form is that data going to take? You don't know. You are being alarmist, in that you are getting bent out of shape over something you don't even KNOW. THAT is what I said. The FACT is that the government MUST have a means to gathering information for criminal prosecutions. Even you can't deny that. That means (when it comes to Internet traffic) MUST happen at the ISP level. WHY? Because MANY ISPs HIDE THEIR CUSTOMERS. It happens behind every ISP who decides that NAT is "necessary". Sorry, but that is one thing that makes it necessary for them to gather data on YOUR network. They HAVE to be able to gather data on a specific suspect. THAT is precisely what I said, nothing more, and nothing less. REALLY? Maybe when I read these words from YOUR email address, it was a government conspiracy that sent them to point the finger at you. Here are SOME of the things you said: I said that not resisting regulation would kill us. The process has begun. We marched in to be fleeced, smiling and bleating softly. Been nice knowing you folks. and here the federal govenrment has just taken wholesale control of the ISP business. and here You can bet that any "industry" standard derived will derived with the input from the telecoms to bankrupt as many small ISP's as possible. I predict that in 2 years there will not be enough WISP's left to fund WISPA at all, unless the dues go up on the order 20 to 50 times. and here we need to work at launching the largest "industry and public" backlash ever, to end this sort of stuff... Perhaps I'm the only one reading "alarmist" into your words... Up to this point, the LEA's had to pony up the means of tapping and grabbing the data they wanted. Which, in my view, is fair and equitable. Why should we all pay for and design a network around some system few will ever use? Read the documentation again...I'm not here to educate you, but the fact is that your network is NOT going to have to be "designed around" anything. CALEA was NOT written for ISP's or VOIP. The FCC and DOJ have broadened its meaning all on their own. No, it wasn't written for that purpose. But, the world is not the same as it was when the CALEA laws were penned. Times change and so do the laws. My only suggestion is to do 2 things: 1. Like it or not, the law is the law, and you MUST follow it. If you decide to break the law, I hope you are caught and punished. 2. Don't ASSUME (you know about that word, right?) that every law is a government conspiracy to put you out of business. OH...it wouldn't hurt if you'd take your meds... -- WISPA Wireless List: wireless@wispa.org Subscribe/Unsubscribe: http://lists.wispa.org/mailman/listinfo/wireless Archives: http://lists.wispa.org/pipermail/wireless/
Re: [WISPA] Form 445
Mark said: So, you think the big guys aren't going to lobby for things that benefit them, while we have no voice or consideration because don't have billions to lobby with? We have people going to D.C. to meet with the FBI directly to help get this all worked out. How much more representation can you have? I have not heard anything but supportive efforts coming from WISPA and the government officials we have spoken to about this. There is no conspiracy to do anything but stop the bad guys. I don't want people using my network to hurt other people so from that standpoint I think there can be positive effects of this. I do not like to see government snooping but I do not know how else they can find and stop criminals who use the Internet. Any other scenario I can think of seems worse than what is being proposed. I think we can assume from this point forward that Mark wants nothing to do with this effort other than to derail the process if possible. I assure you we are trying to do our best to balance the needs of the government and the needs of our WISP operators who we serve. That is the agenda. If anyone has questions they think are worthy of response from the FBI please send them on to this list. George will be going there to get us a path for developing a standard by which our fellow WISP operators can run their businesss without giving too much thought to CALEA. The only people who will go broke because of CALEA will be those who refuse to follow the law. For those people I am guessing CALEA will be only one factor which leads to their demise. Scriv -- WISPA Wireless List: wireless@wispa.org Subscribe/Unsubscribe: http://lists.wispa.org/mailman/listinfo/wireless Archives: http://lists.wispa.org/pipermail/wireless/
Re: [WISPA] Form 445
On Tue, 13 Feb 2007, John Scrivner wrote: Question 1. If WISPA develops an industry standard which meets all the technical and legal requirements of the law, will law enforcement accept our data stream from whatever standard we develop? In addition to this, how about adding the idea of bandwidth cost. If we are to be required to stream data, we are doubling the utilization for that one customer (plus a little overhead) on our upstream pipes. There are WISPs who use DSL or satellite as their internet feed, and these technologies would certainly be impaired by adding an upstream feed equal to the combined total of upload and download for even one busy customer. How do we address this issue? Question 3. Will we have some other standard forced upon us that we do not have a part in developing? Perhaps acceptance of an already developed standard such as PCAP would be appropriate. This is a low cost option that is readily accessible to even the smallest ISPs. Question 4. If a small operator cannot meet the requirements then what remedy is available to him in order to not lose his business? This is, perhaps, the question of the day. Question 5. Will there be grants available to small operators to meet CALEA rules? If a standard such as PCAP with store and forward is acceptable, then this is not going to be needed, as a solution based on this would be very inexpensive. It would be less than $1k, including any switch upgrades that may be needed. Question 6. Can we apply for and receive extensions for meeting the CALEA requirements? (In case we do not have everything ready by May) Wasn't there something like a $5k filing fee for this? Seems like I read that somewhere...I can't remember. Please add my thoughts to your Q & A process, George. And (in case it hasn't been said), thanks to you and your team for taking the time and expense of going. -- Butch Evans Network Engineering and Security Consulting 573-276-2879 http://www.butchevans.com/ My calendar: http://tinyurl.com/y24ad6 Training Partners: http://tinyurl.com/smfkf Mikrotik Certified Consultant http://www.mikrotik.com/consultants.html -- WISPA Wireless List: wireless@wispa.org Subscribe/Unsubscribe: http://lists.wispa.org/mailman/listinfo/wireless Archives: http://lists.wispa.org/pipermail/wireless/
Re: [WISPA] Form 445
Question 1. If WISPA develops an industry standard which meets all the technical and legal requirements of the law, will law enforcement accept our data stream from whatever standard we develop? Question 2. Will your office allow us to have a system or process certified as being "CALEA Compliant"? Question 3. Will we have some other standard forced upon us that we do not have a part in developing? Question 4. If a small operator cannot meet the requirements then what remedy is available to him in order to not lose his business? Question 5. Will there be grants available to small operators to meet CALEA rules? Question 6. Can we apply for and receive extensions for meeting the CALEA requirements? (In case we do not have everything ready by May) Please ask those on our behalf and send us the results when you return. Thanks George! Scriv George Rogato wrote: wispa wrote: You actually think that the "big guys" will actually let that happen? Yeah, I can see it now, our upstreams turning CALEA compliance into a profit center. Anyways if you want to bring your own tape recorder up to the feds and ask them some questions, go for it. But the offer still stands. Any reasonable question regarding the implementation of CALEA compliance I will be glad to ask. George -- WISPA Wireless List: wireless@wispa.org Subscribe/Unsubscribe: http://lists.wispa.org/mailman/listinfo/wireless Archives: http://lists.wispa.org/pipermail/wireless/
Re: CALEA - HOW? RE: [WISPA] Form 445
Looks like these platforms are supported: 1-pre2 1-pre3 7200 7301 as5350 as5350xm as5400 as5400hpx as5400xm as5850-ersc as5850-rsc -- Dylan Oliver Primaverity, LLC -- WISPA Wireless List: wireless@wispa.org Subscribe/Unsubscribe: http://lists.wispa.org/mailman/listinfo/wireless Archives: http://lists.wispa.org/pipermail/wireless/
Re: [WISPA] Form 445
Mark, You keep saying that the government is killing you, and yet we keep getting posts from you...indicating to me that you're still in business. What's up with that? Mark Nash Network Engineer UnwiredOnline.Net 350 Holly Street Junction City, OR 97448 http://www.uwol.net 541-998- 541-998-5599 fax - Original Message - From: "wispa" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> To: "WISPA General List" Sent: Monday, February 12, 2007 9:32 PM Subject: RE: [WISPA] Form 445 > On Mon, 12 Feb 2007 23:22:12 -0600, JohnnyO wrote > > I'm not a pessimist at all. I just know what federal regulation means. It > means WE GO AWAY. > > Federal regulation is the DEATH of small business. I have no doubt the > Telcos and Cablecos are no doubt celebrating big time. What they could not > do to wipe out competition the federal government does for them. > > > > > Doom and Gloom eh Mark ? Damn man - the big pessimist (sp?) > > > > JohnnyO > > > > > Mark Koskenmaki <> Neofast, Inc > Broadband for the Walla Walla Valley and Blue Mountains > 541-969-8200 > > -- > WISPA Wireless List: wireless@wispa.org > > Subscribe/Unsubscribe: > http://lists.wispa.org/mailman/listinfo/wireless > > Archives: http://lists.wispa.org/pipermail/wireless/ > -- WISPA Wireless List: wireless@wispa.org Subscribe/Unsubscribe: http://lists.wispa.org/mailman/listinfo/wireless Archives: http://lists.wispa.org/pipermail/wireless/
Re: CALEA - HOW? RE: [WISPA] Form 445
http://www.cisco.com/en/US/products/hw/routers/ps352/prod_bulletin0900aecd802d2ed0.html -Matt Russ Kreigh wrote: Matt - Do you have a link to this, or an IOS train number? I couldn't find it on CCO. I know Cisco has a solution, just haven't been able to find much about it. Thanks, Russ Kreigh Network Engineer OnlyInternet.Net Broadband & Wireless Supernova Technologies Office: (800) 363-0989 Direct: (260) 827-2486 Fax:(260) 824-9624 [EMAIL PROTECTED] http://www.oibw.net -Original Message- From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] On Behalf Of Matt Liotta Sent: Tuesday, February 13, 2007 10:00 AM To: WISPA General List Subject: Re: CALEA - HOW? RE: [WISPA] Form 445 We are just deploying a new IOS image that includes Cisco's SII architecture. Our only cost is time. -Matt Rick Smith wrote: OK, Don't point me to some confusing URL I don't have time (or patience) to read about how to comply with CALEA. What are YOU as a WISP doing to comply ? How much is it costing you ? What technology ? How would you provide the "hook" in so the FBI could just listen in at any time (is that the way it works ? Or do they still need to provide a subpoena...) ? Others I'm sure will come up.. R -Original Message- From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] On Behalf Of George Rogato Sent: Tuesday, February 13, 2007 12:44 AM To: WISPA General List Subject: Re: [WISPA] Form 445 wispa wrote: You actually think that the "big guys" will actually let that happen? Yeah, I can see it now, our upstreams turning CALEA compliance into a profit center. Anyways if you want to bring your own tape recorder up to the feds and ask them some questions, go for it. But the offer still stands. Any reasonable question regarding the implementation of CALEA compliance I will be glad to ask. George -- WISPA Wireless List: wireless@wispa.org Subscribe/Unsubscribe: http://lists.wispa.org/mailman/listinfo/wireless Archives: http://lists.wispa.org/pipermail/wireless/
RE: CALEA - HOW? RE: [WISPA] Form 445
Matt - Do you have a link to this, or an IOS train number? I couldn't find it on CCO. I know Cisco has a solution, just haven't been able to find much about it. Thanks, Russ Kreigh Network Engineer OnlyInternet.Net Broadband & Wireless Supernova Technologies Office: (800) 363-0989 Direct: (260) 827-2486 Fax:(260) 824-9624 [EMAIL PROTECTED] http://www.oibw.net -Original Message- From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] On Behalf Of Matt Liotta Sent: Tuesday, February 13, 2007 10:00 AM To: WISPA General List Subject: Re: CALEA - HOW? RE: [WISPA] Form 445 We are just deploying a new IOS image that includes Cisco's SII architecture. Our only cost is time. -Matt Rick Smith wrote: > OK, Don't point me to some confusing URL I don't have time > (or patience) to read about how to comply with CALEA. > > What are YOU as a WISP doing to comply ? > > How much is it costing you ? > > What technology ? > > How would you provide the "hook" in so the FBI could just > listen in at any time (is that the way it works ? Or do > they still need to provide a subpoena...) ? > > Others I'm sure will come up.. > > R > > > -Original Message- > From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] On > Behalf Of George Rogato > Sent: Tuesday, February 13, 2007 12:44 AM > To: WISPA General List > Subject: Re: [WISPA] Form 445 > > > > wispa wrote: > > >> You actually think that the "big guys" will actually let that happen? >> > > Yeah, I can see it now, our upstreams turning CALEA compliance into a > profit center. > > Anyways if you want to bring your own tape recorder up to the feds and > ask them some questions, go for it. > > But the offer still stands. > > Any reasonable question regarding the implementation of CALEA compliance > I will be glad to ask. > > George > > -- WISPA Wireless List: wireless@wispa.org Subscribe/Unsubscribe: http://lists.wispa.org/mailman/listinfo/wireless Archives: http://lists.wispa.org/pipermail/wireless/ -- WISPA Wireless List: wireless@wispa.org Subscribe/Unsubscribe: http://lists.wispa.org/mailman/listinfo/wireless Archives: http://lists.wispa.org/pipermail/wireless/
Re: [WISPA] Form 445
OK folks - Most of you are in rural areas where you are the only choice for broadband. You need to advise your subscribers and your congressional representatives of the hardship this will cause. Perhaps if they lose votes, they will help. -RickG On 2/13/07, Dave Brenton <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote: "Include me in WISPA 445 Filing" I Guess. I Mean we are not yet operational so there is nothing to monitor as of this date. So including us in may be the INCORRECT move at this time. it's RTWB, LLC dba Rural Tennessee Wireless Broadband Dave Brenton General Manager Rural Tennessee Wireless Broadband Bringing FAST Internet to the rest of us (sm) Dover TN (931) 232-0914 office (931) 627-1142 cell [EMAIL PROTECTED] -- WISPA Wireless List: wireless@wispa.org Subscribe/Unsubscribe: http://lists.wispa.org/mailman/listinfo/wireless Archives: http://lists.wispa.org/pipermail/wireless/ -- WISPA Wireless List: wireless@wispa.org Subscribe/Unsubscribe: http://lists.wispa.org/mailman/listinfo/wireless Archives: http://lists.wispa.org/pipermail/wireless/
Re: [WISPA] Form 445
"HEAD ON - Apply directly to your forehead"! On 2/13/07, Mac Dearman <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote: Patients who experience an acute psychotic episode lasting longer than one day but less than one month and that may or may not immediately follow an important life stress or a pregnancy (with postpartum onset). This illness usually comes as a surprise as there is no forewarning that the person is likely to "break down," although this disorder is more common in people with a pre-existing personality disorder (particularly histrionic and borderline types). The main diagnostic criteria is as follows: The patient has at least one of the following that is not a culturally sanctioned response: 1. Delusions 2. Hallucinations 3. Speech that is markedly disorganized 4. Behavior that is markedly disorganized or catatonic. The patient has symptoms from 1 to 30 days and eventually recovers completely. The disturbance is not better accounted for by a Mood Disorder With Psychotic Features, Schizoaffective Disorder, or Schizophrenia and is not due to the direct physiological effects of a substance (e.g., a drug of abuse, a medication) or a general medical condition. Sincerely, Mac Dearman -Original Message- From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] On Behalf Of wispa Sent: Monday, February 12, 2007 10:52 PM To: WISPA General List Subject: RE: [WISPA] Form 445 On Mon, 12 Feb 2007 23:46:13 -0500, Rick Smith wrote > I think I'm going to be the first to say this, but > I don't have time to give a crap about calea. I'm > taking advantage of an industry organization to do > something on my behalf, because I can't have the > time to give a crap later when the FCC comes knocking > after finding out I DIDN'T file... I predict that somewhere around 80% of small ISP's won't file. Many won't even know they have to. Just think, EVERY block size network. If you build out for your neighborhood and have 10 neighbors... YOU have to fork out the big bucks, YOU are now dead. You just don't know it yet, because you have no idea on earth that the federal govenrment has just taken wholesale control of the ISP business. > > Now, I run Mikrotik everywhere, and I've seen comments > about packet monitoring "being OK" for compliance, and > I'll STILL not do anything until I'm provided with a > subpoena, but I figure having the paperwork THERE is > probably a necessary evil. > You can bet that any "industry" standard derived will derived with the input from the telecoms to bankrupt as many small ISP's as possible. I predict that in 2 years there will not be enough WISP's left to fund WISPA at all, unless the dues go up on the order 20 to 50 times. > This, in my opinion, is just big brother licensed > extortion for the little guys. Paying a TPP for > snooping on your customers is just crap. But, what > are you going to do ? You're going to pay and then you're going to go out of business. Mark Koskenmaki <> Neofast, Inc Broadband for the Walla Walla Valley and Blue Mountains 541-969-8200 -- WISPA Wireless List: wireless@wispa.org Subscribe/Unsubscribe: http://lists.wispa.org/mailman/listinfo/wireless Archives: http://lists.wispa.org/pipermail/wireless/ -- WISPA Wireless List: wireless@wispa.org Subscribe/Unsubscribe: http://lists.wispa.org/mailman/listinfo/wireless Archives: http://lists.wispa.org/pipermail/wireless/ -- WISPA Wireless List: wireless@wispa.org Subscribe/Unsubscribe: http://lists.wispa.org/mailman/listinfo/wireless Archives: http://lists.wispa.org/pipermail/wireless/
Re: [WISPA] Form 445
My understanding is that only "broadband providers" are responsible to be compliant. In order to be a "broadband provider" you have to offer symmetrical 200kb+ service. Anthony Broadband Corp. Jason wrote: 1. Here's a question: for those who don't have symmetric rates to/from the internet (I have 1meg down and , supposedly 128k up, but often it's something like 24 up, satellite you know...) streaming just will not work. Can we store and forward? Or in general, are they taking into account the technology being used and its capabilities? 2. Anyone know anything about these (price etc): http://www.netoptics.com/products/product_family.asp?cid=1&Section=products&menuitem=1&filter=3 they make it sound as though they are most of the solution: http://www.netoptics.com/pdf/CALEA_Brief.pdf Jason George Rogato wrote: Well ask a question and we'll see. Guess if I'm supposed to be the messenger, it's me. If someone wants me to go and ask ridiculous politically radical questions, then forget about it. They can just dial the number and ask themselves. But a non political real question is no problem. George JohnnyO wrote: George - who decides what is "reasonable" or not ? Is this a personal decision ? Sorry to stick a thorn in here, but, I think Mark's questions are valid and should be asked on behalf of WISPA. JohnnyO -Original Message- From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] On Behalf Of George Rogato Sent: Monday, February 12, 2007 11:44 PM To: WISPA General List Subject: Re: [WISPA] Form 445 wispa wrote: You actually think that the "big guys" will actually let that happen? Yeah, I can see it now, our upstreams turning CALEA compliance into a profit center. Anyways if you want to bring your own tape recorder up to the feds and ask them some questions, go for it. But the offer still stands. Any reasonable question regarding the implementation of CALEA compliance I will be glad to ask. George -- WISPA Wireless List: wireless@wispa.org Subscribe/Unsubscribe: http://lists.wispa.org/mailman/listinfo/wireless Archives: http://lists.wispa.org/pipermail/wireless/
Re: CALEA - HOW? RE: [WISPA] Form 445
We are just deploying a new IOS image that includes Cisco's SII architecture. Our only cost is time. -Matt Rick Smith wrote: OK, Don't point me to some confusing URL I don't have time (or patience) to read about how to comply with CALEA. What are YOU as a WISP doing to comply ? How much is it costing you ? What technology ? How would you provide the "hook" in so the FBI could just listen in at any time (is that the way it works ? Or do they still need to provide a subpoena...) ? Others I'm sure will come up.. R -Original Message- From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] On Behalf Of George Rogato Sent: Tuesday, February 13, 2007 12:44 AM To: WISPA General List Subject: Re: [WISPA] Form 445 wispa wrote: You actually think that the "big guys" will actually let that happen? Yeah, I can see it now, our upstreams turning CALEA compliance into a profit center. Anyways if you want to bring your own tape recorder up to the feds and ask them some questions, go for it. But the offer still stands. Any reasonable question regarding the implementation of CALEA compliance I will be glad to ask. George -- WISPA Wireless List: wireless@wispa.org Subscribe/Unsubscribe: http://lists.wispa.org/mailman/listinfo/wireless Archives: http://lists.wispa.org/pipermail/wireless/
Re: [WISPA] Form 445
"Include me in WISPA 445 Filing" I Guess. I Mean we are not yet operational so there is nothing to monitor as of this date. So including us in may be the INCORRECT move at this time. it's RTWB, LLC dba Rural Tennessee Wireless Broadband Dave Brenton General Manager Rural Tennessee Wireless Broadband Bringing FAST Internet to the rest of us (sm) Dover TN (931) 232-0914 office (931) 627-1142 cell [EMAIL PROTECTED] -- WISPA Wireless List: wireless@wispa.org Subscribe/Unsubscribe: http://lists.wispa.org/mailman/listinfo/wireless Archives: http://lists.wispa.org/pipermail/wireless/
RE: CALEA - HOW? RE: [WISPA] Form 445
Actually, the standard for connecting the mediation box to the LEA (known as LAES) has been finalized. The standard for connecting from the router to the mediation box (T1-IAS I believe) will be finalized later this month. -Original Message- From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] On Behalf Of Butch Evans Sent: Tuesday, February 13, 2007 2:28 AM To: WISPA General List Subject: Re: CALEA - HOW? RE: [WISPA] Form 445 On Tue, 13 Feb 2007, Rick Smith wrote: >OK, Don't point me to some confusing URL I don't have time (or >patience) to read about how to comply with CALEA. The most difficult thing about the CALEA compliance issue is that the format of the data has not, yet, been finalized. This makes it impossible (IMNSHO) to determine exactly how compliance is gonna look. Here is what IS known: 1. You must be able to send the data (in a yet to be determined format) via a secure connection to the requesting LEA (law enforcement agency) 2. The LEA will supply you with a subpoena requesting information on a specific customer. 3. You must be able to capture (and forward) ALL traffic to and from that customer. This means even traffic between that customer and another of your customers, so a sniffer at the border is NOT enough. 4. The "target" cannot know his data is being logged. I don't think I missed any of the "major points". I have heard that PCAP (tcpdump or MT packet sniffer) format is possibly going to be an approved format, but it CANNOT be a "store and forward". In other words, it MUST be streamed to the LEA. I have heard, but I can't confirm (since, I am only an associate member) that the principle member's list has better insight into what WISPA is doing on behalf of the membership. (This was gleaned from various posts on the mailing list here, and is just an assumption.) Either way, membership is a good idea. ;-) If I missed anything, perhaps someone here can point it out. -- Butch Evans Network Engineering and Security Consulting 573-276-2879 http://www.butchevans.com/ My calendar: http://tinyurl.com/y24ad6 Training Partners: http://tinyurl.com/smfkf Mikrotik Certified Consultant http://www.mikrotik.com/consultants.html -- WISPA Wireless List: wireless@wispa.org Subscribe/Unsubscribe: http://lists.wispa.org/mailman/listinfo/wireless Archives: http://lists.wispa.org/pipermail/wireless/ -- WISPA Wireless List: wireless@wispa.org Subscribe/Unsubscribe: http://lists.wispa.org/mailman/listinfo/wireless Archives: http://lists.wispa.org/pipermail/wireless/
RE: [WISPA] Form 445
I misunderstood this initially also, but the Feds do NOT have access to your network. They have to provide you with a subpoena and then you have (generally) 48 hours to provide them with the traffic stream. I do agree that it is an unfunded mandate, but I don't see any way around it. You do get a chance at recovering some money when you get your first subpoena...that's why I prefer the TTP plans that are light on front-end and monthly fees. Jeff -Original Message- From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] On Behalf Of Butch Evans Sent: Tuesday, February 13, 2007 2:41 AM To: WISPA General List Subject: RE: [WISPA] Form 445 On Mon, 12 Feb 2007, wispa wrote: >This is the FCC declaring that EVERY MEANS OF COMMUNICATION BE >PRE-TAPPED at the expense of industry. WHAT? You are not correct. This is the LEA asking for a means to collect data on suspected criminals. They will have to have a subpoena to gather the data, and they do not "automatically" get access to your network data. You are being alarmist and aren't even informed enough to understand what CALEA is. Who's that looking over your shoulder...You should be careful not to fall asleep, because they are watching your bedroom right now. They watch ALL our bedrooms (and kitchens, too). They can read all our email, too. In fact, the post office opens every letter that passes through to send faxes to the government of all the mail, so they'll have it on record. I've heard that the trees are on their side, too! SHEESH! You ARE tiring. -- Butch Evans Network Engineering and Security Consulting 573-276-2879 http://www.butchevans.com/ My calendar: http://tinyurl.com/y24ad6 Training Partners: http://tinyurl.com/smfkf Mikrotik Certified Consultant http://www.mikrotik.com/consultants.html -- WISPA Wireless List: wireless@wispa.org Subscribe/Unsubscribe: http://lists.wispa.org/mailman/listinfo/wireless Archives: http://lists.wispa.org/pipermail/wireless/ -- WISPA Wireless List: wireless@wispa.org Subscribe/Unsubscribe: http://lists.wispa.org/mailman/listinfo/wireless Archives: http://lists.wispa.org/pipermail/wireless/
Re: [WISPA] Form 445
Mark, What is amazing is how you think that your per cent of the marketplace is so significant that both the FCC and the BOC have set their sites on you. Having spent 7 years in telecom dealing mainly with BellSouth but many other carriers as well, I would like to let you know that you are not even on their radar. They are so bogged down with the battle against cable that ISP's except maybe ELN show up on the radar. - Peter wispa wrote: You can bet that any "industry" standard derived will derived with the input from the telecoms to bankrupt as many small ISP's as possible. I predict that in 2 years there will not be enough WISP's left to fund WISPA at all, unless the dues go up on the order 20 to 50 times. This, in my opinion, is just big brother licensed extortion for the little guys. Paying a TPP for snooping on your customers is just crap. But, what are you going to do ? You're going to pay and then you're going to go out of business. Mark Koskenmaki <> Neofast, Inc Broadband for the Walla Walla Valley and Blue Mountains 541-969-8200 -- WISPA Wireless List: wireless@wispa.org Subscribe/Unsubscribe: http://lists.wispa.org/mailman/listinfo/wireless Archives: http://lists.wispa.org/pipermail/wireless/
RE: [WISPA] Form 445
Was it "being alarmist" to shout "the redcoats are coming!" ? I understand no one knows the format of the data yet. But the truth is that CALEA is an attempt to put the trigger there, get us to go broke funding it, and let "them" pull it any time they want... -Original Message- From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] On Behalf Of Butch Evans Sent: Tuesday, February 13, 2007 3:40 AM To: WISPA General List Subject: RE: [WISPA] Form 445 On Tue, 13 Feb 2007, wispa wrote: >Uhmm, Butch... No, they're not "asking for a means". They're >insisting that we build the tap into our network, at our expense, >prior to a request ( whether we got any requests or not ), to >provide them data in a specific form. And what form is that data going to take? You don't know. You are being alarmist, in that you are getting bent out of shape over something you don't even KNOW. THAT is what I said. The FACT is that the government MUST have a means to gathering information for criminal prosecutions. Even you can't deny that. That means (when it comes to Internet traffic) MUST happen at the ISP level. WHY? Because MANY ISPs HIDE THEIR CUSTOMERS. It happens behind every ISP who decides that NAT is "necessary". Sorry, but that is one thing that makes it necessary for them to gather data on YOUR network. They HAVE to be able to gather data on a specific suspect. > THAT is precisely what I said, nothing more, and nothing less. REALLY? Maybe when I read these words from YOUR email address, it was a government conspiracy that sent them to point the finger at you. Here are SOME of the things you said: I said that not resisting regulation would kill us. The process has begun. We marched in to be fleeced, smiling and bleating softly. Been nice knowing you folks. and here the federal govenrment has just taken wholesale control of the ISP business. and here You can bet that any "industry" standard derived will derived with the input from the telecoms to bankrupt as many small ISP's as possible. I predict that in 2 years there will not be enough WISP's left to fund WISPA at all, unless the dues go up on the order 20 to 50 times. and here we need to work at launching the largest "industry and public" backlash ever, to end this sort of stuff... Perhaps I'm the only one reading "alarmist" into your words... >Up to this point, the LEA's had to pony up the means of tapping and >grabbing the data they wanted. Which, in my view, is fair and >equitable. Why should we all pay for and design a network around >some system few will ever use? Read the documentation again...I'm not here to educate you, but the fact is that your network is NOT going to have to be "designed around" anything. >CALEA was NOT written for ISP's or VOIP. The FCC and DOJ have >broadened its meaning all on their own. No, it wasn't written for that purpose. But, the world is not the same as it was when the CALEA laws were penned. Times change and so do the laws. My only suggestion is to do 2 things: 1. Like it or not, the law is the law, and you MUST follow it. If you decide to break the law, I hope you are caught and punished. 2. Don't ASSUME (you know about that word, right?) that every law is a government conspiracy to put you out of business. OH...it wouldn't hurt if you'd take your meds... -- Butch Evans Network Engineering and Security Consulting 573-276-2879 http://www.butchevans.com/ My calendar: http://tinyurl.com/y24ad6 Training Partners: http://tinyurl.com/smfkf Mikrotik Certified Consultant http://www.mikrotik.com/consultants.html -- WISPA Wireless List: wireless@wispa.org Subscribe/Unsubscribe: http://lists.wispa.org/mailman/listinfo/wireless Archives: http://lists.wispa.org/pipermail/wireless/ -- WISPA Wireless List: wireless@wispa.org Subscribe/Unsubscribe: http://lists.wispa.org/mailman/listinfo/wireless Archives: http://lists.wispa.org/pipermail/wireless/
RE: [WISPA] Form 445
On Tue, 13 Feb 2007 02:40:07 -0600 (CST), Butch Evans wrote > On Tue, 13 Feb 2007, wispa wrote: > > >Uhmm, Butch... No, they're not "asking for a means". They're > >insisting that we build the tap into our network, at our expense, > >prior to a request ( whether we got any requests or not ), to > >provide them data in a specific form. > > And what form is that data going to take? You don't know. You are > being alarmist, in that you are getting bent out of shape over > something you don't even KNOW. THAT is what I said. Why shouldn't I? It's an unfunded federal mandate on private enterprise, completely without justification, in my view. How could ANYONE possibly defend it? > > The FACT is that the government MUST have a means to gathering > information for criminal prosecutions. Oh? What could possibly be denying them this? Nothing. There's no reason they should make ALL OF US PAY TO BUILD IT ALL FOR THEM WHETHER IT IS NEEDED OR NOT. Even you can't deny that. > That means (when it comes to Internet traffic) MUST happen at the > ISP level. WHY? Because MANY ISPs HIDE THEIR CUSTOMERS. It happens > behind every ISP who decides that NAT is "necessary". Sorry, but > that is one thing that makes it necessary for them to gather data on > YOUR network. They HAVE to be able to gather data on a specific > suspect. Following your logic, it won't be long when network design, practices, and even equipment choices will all be federally regulated to "improve" this. Can't afford it? Who the bloody hell cares, the GOVERNMENT MUST HAVE IT > > > THAT is precisely what I said, nothing more, and nothing less. > > REALLY? Maybe when I read these words from YOUR email address, it > was a government conspiracy that sent them to point the finger at > you. Here are SOME of the things you said: > > > I said that not resisting regulation would kill us. So, you don't believe this? How could you NOT??? CALEA is the tip of the iceburg. > > The process has begun. We marched in to be fleeced, smiling and > bleating > softly. > > Been nice knowing you folks. > > > and here > > the federal govenrment has just taken wholesale control of the ISP > business. > It certainly has. There is no means of connecting a person to the internet that is now NOT federally controlled. If you can think of a way, tell us. I'm all ears. Heck, I'm ready to switch now. > > and here > > You can bet that any "industry" standard derived will derived with > the input from the telecoms to bankrupt as many small ISP's as > possible. > > I predict that in 2 years there will not be enough WISP's left to > fund WISPA at all, unless the dues go up on the order 20 to 50 > times. > So, you think the big guys aren't going to lobby for things that benefit them, while we have no voice or consideration because don't have billions to lobby with? > > and here > > we need to work at launching the largest "industry and public" > backlash ever, to end this sort of stuff... > > > Perhaps I'm the only one reading "alarmist" into your words... Yes, you SHOULD be alarmed. We should have been ALARMED A LONG TIME AGO. > > >Up to this point, the LEA's had to pony up the means of tapping and > >grabbing the data they wanted. Which, in my view, is fair and > >equitable. Why should we all pay for and design a network around > >some system few will ever use? > > Read the documentation again...I'm not here to educate you, but the > fact is that your network is NOT going to have to be "designed > around" anything. Well, I haven't got a dollar to bet... but I BET YOU WILL. > > >CALEA was NOT written for ISP's or VOIP. The FCC and DOJ have > >broadened its meaning all on their own. > > No, it wasn't written for that purpose. But, the world is not the > same as it was when the CALEA laws were penned. Times change and so > do the laws. My only suggestion is to do 2 things: > > 1. Like it or not, the law is the law, and you MUST follow it. If > you decide to break the law, I hope you are caught and punished. > > 2. Don't ASSUME (you know about that word, right?) that every law is > a government conspiracy to put you out of business. I don't assume any such thing. It's JUST THE NATURE OF GOVERNMENT TO FAVOR THE WEALTHY AND INFLUENTIAL over the interests of those of us who are not. > > OH...it wouldn't hurt if you'd take your meds... Sure Butch. Looks like you've been on yours WAY too long. All that valium musta numbed you totally. I said that when our "leaders" openly promoted the FCC placing us all under federal regulation that this WOULD happen. CALEA is the first. Now, for everyone else. There will be a LONG list... there will be homeland security, there will be "fairness doctrine" where we have to gaurantee full connectivity, there will be social policy (must provide to those who don't pay the bill) and the list will go on and on. YOU WI
RE: [WISPA] Form 445
On Tue, 13 Feb 2007, wispa wrote: Uhmm, Butch... No, they're not "asking for a means". They're insisting that we build the tap into our network, at our expense, prior to a request ( whether we got any requests or not ), to provide them data in a specific form. And what form is that data going to take? You don't know. You are being alarmist, in that you are getting bent out of shape over something you don't even KNOW. THAT is what I said. The FACT is that the government MUST have a means to gathering information for criminal prosecutions. Even you can't deny that. That means (when it comes to Internet traffic) MUST happen at the ISP level. WHY? Because MANY ISPs HIDE THEIR CUSTOMERS. It happens behind every ISP who decides that NAT is "necessary". Sorry, but that is one thing that makes it necessary for them to gather data on YOUR network. They HAVE to be able to gather data on a specific suspect. THAT is precisely what I said, nothing more, and nothing less. REALLY? Maybe when I read these words from YOUR email address, it was a government conspiracy that sent them to point the finger at you. Here are SOME of the things you said: I said that not resisting regulation would kill us. The process has begun. We marched in to be fleeced, smiling and bleating softly. Been nice knowing you folks. and here the federal govenrment has just taken wholesale control of the ISP business. and here You can bet that any "industry" standard derived will derived with the input from the telecoms to bankrupt as many small ISP's as possible. I predict that in 2 years there will not be enough WISP's left to fund WISPA at all, unless the dues go up on the order 20 to 50 times. and here we need to work at launching the largest "industry and public" backlash ever, to end this sort of stuff... Perhaps I'm the only one reading "alarmist" into your words... Up to this point, the LEA's had to pony up the means of tapping and grabbing the data they wanted. Which, in my view, is fair and equitable. Why should we all pay for and design a network around some system few will ever use? Read the documentation again...I'm not here to educate you, but the fact is that your network is NOT going to have to be "designed around" anything. CALEA was NOT written for ISP's or VOIP. The FCC and DOJ have broadened its meaning all on their own. No, it wasn't written for that purpose. But, the world is not the same as it was when the CALEA laws were penned. Times change and so do the laws. My only suggestion is to do 2 things: 1. Like it or not, the law is the law, and you MUST follow it. If you decide to break the law, I hope you are caught and punished. 2. Don't ASSUME (you know about that word, right?) that every law is a government conspiracy to put you out of business. OH...it wouldn't hurt if you'd take your meds... -- Butch Evans Network Engineering and Security Consulting 573-276-2879 http://www.butchevans.com/ My calendar: http://tinyurl.com/y24ad6 Training Partners: http://tinyurl.com/smfkf Mikrotik Certified Consultant http://www.mikrotik.com/consultants.html -- WISPA Wireless List: wireless@wispa.org Subscribe/Unsubscribe: http://lists.wispa.org/mailman/listinfo/wireless Archives: http://lists.wispa.org/pipermail/wireless/
RE: [WISPA] Form 445
On Tue, 13 Feb 2007 01:40:41 -0600 (CST), Butch Evans wrote > On Mon, 12 Feb 2007, wispa wrote: > > >This is the FCC declaring that EVERY MEANS OF COMMUNICATION BE > >PRE-TAPPED at the expense of industry. > > WHAT? You are not correct. This is the LEA asking for a means to > collect data on suspected criminals. They will have to have a > subpoena to gather the data, and they do not "automatically" get > access to your network data. You are being alarmist and aren't even > informed enough to understand what CALEA is. Uhmm, Butch... No, they're not "asking for a means". They're insisting that we build the tap into our network, at our expense, prior to a request ( whether we got any requests or not ), to provide them data in a specific form. THAT is precisely what I said, nothing more, and nothing less. > > Who's that looking over your shoulder...You should be careful not to > fall asleep, because they are watching your bedroom right now. They > watch ALL our bedrooms (and kitchens, too). They can read all our > email, too. In fact, the post office opens every letter that passes > through to send faxes to the government of all the mail, so they'll > have it on record. I've heard that the trees are on their side, > too! > > SHEESH! You ARE tiring. Well, if you didn't make all that up, then you might have had a point. I said nothing of the sort. Up to this point, the LEA's had to pony up the means of tapping and grabbing the data they wanted. Which, in my view, is fair and equitable. Why should we all pay for and design a network around some system few will ever use? CALEA was NOT written for ISP's or VOIP. The FCC and DOJ have broadened its meaning all on their own. Mark Koskenmaki <> Neofast, Inc Broadband for the Walla Walla Valley and Blue Mountains 541-969-8200 -- WISPA Wireless List: wireless@wispa.org Subscribe/Unsubscribe: http://lists.wispa.org/mailman/listinfo/wireless Archives: http://lists.wispa.org/pipermail/wireless/
RE: [WISPA] Form 445
On Mon, 12 Feb 2007, wispa wrote: This is the FCC declaring that EVERY MEANS OF COMMUNICATION BE PRE-TAPPED at the expense of industry. WHAT? You are not correct. This is the LEA asking for a means to collect data on suspected criminals. They will have to have a subpoena to gather the data, and they do not "automatically" get access to your network data. You are being alarmist and aren't even informed enough to understand what CALEA is. Who's that looking over your shoulder...You should be careful not to fall asleep, because they are watching your bedroom right now. They watch ALL our bedrooms (and kitchens, too). They can read all our email, too. In fact, the post office opens every letter that passes through to send faxes to the government of all the mail, so they'll have it on record. I've heard that the trees are on their side, too! SHEESH! You ARE tiring. -- Butch Evans Network Engineering and Security Consulting 573-276-2879 http://www.butchevans.com/ My calendar: http://tinyurl.com/y24ad6 Training Partners: http://tinyurl.com/smfkf Mikrotik Certified Consultant http://www.mikrotik.com/consultants.html -- WISPA Wireless List: wireless@wispa.org Subscribe/Unsubscribe: http://lists.wispa.org/mailman/listinfo/wireless Archives: http://lists.wispa.org/pipermail/wireless/
Re: [WISPA] Form 445
1. Here's a question: for those who don't have symmetric rates to/from the internet (I have 1meg down and , supposedly 128k up, but often it's something like 24 up, satellite you know...) streaming just will not work. Can we store and forward? Or in general, are they taking into account the technology being used and its capabilities? 2. Anyone know anything about these (price etc): http://www.netoptics.com/products/product_family.asp?cid=1&Section=products&menuitem=1&filter=3 they make it sound as though they are most of the solution: http://www.netoptics.com/pdf/CALEA_Brief.pdf Jason George Rogato wrote: Well ask a question and we'll see. Guess if I'm supposed to be the messenger, it's me. If someone wants me to go and ask ridiculous politically radical questions, then forget about it. They can just dial the number and ask themselves. But a non political real question is no problem. George JohnnyO wrote: George - who decides what is "reasonable" or not ? Is this a personal decision ? Sorry to stick a thorn in here, but, I think Mark's questions are valid and should be asked on behalf of WISPA. JohnnyO -Original Message- From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] On Behalf Of George Rogato Sent: Monday, February 12, 2007 11:44 PM To: WISPA General List Subject: Re: [WISPA] Form 445 wispa wrote: You actually think that the "big guys" will actually let that happen? Yeah, I can see it now, our upstreams turning CALEA compliance into a profit center. Anyways if you want to bring your own tape recorder up to the feds and ask them some questions, go for it. But the offer still stands. Any reasonable question regarding the implementation of CALEA compliance I will be glad to ask. George -- WISPA Wireless List: wireless@wispa.org Subscribe/Unsubscribe: http://lists.wispa.org/mailman/listinfo/wireless Archives: http://lists.wispa.org/pipermail/wireless/
Re: [WISPA] Form 445
I don't know the answer, I would assume us the isp would be the responsible party. I suppose you will have to charge more as well. But thats a legit question that will be asked. And a good one too. Rick Smith wrote: thanks Marlon... Got one more for you - what about the hotels that hook up to me for "virtual" hotspot authentication / billing services through Mikrotik's hotspot mechanism... am I or the Hotel responsible for capture ? heh. I'm sure there's many more questions... -Original Message- From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] On Behalf Of Marlon K. Schafer Sent: Tuesday, February 13, 2007 1:17 AM To: WISPA General List Subject: Re: [WISPA] Form 445 Rick, I've been talking with both the FCC and FBI. It's up in the air yet, but it looks like calea compliance won't be that big of a deal. We'll know much more after the Thursday meetings our guys are having. Here's what I understand so far I've gotten this from the head of the FBI's CALEA division (why more people don't pick up the phone is beyond me). We have to be able to copy a particular customer's data stream to a local machine. They do NOT want a stream cause they may not be able to receive it fast enough or data may get lost on the way to them. The local machine needs to have a way to transfer the data to them. That could be either via burning a disk, transfer of the entire machine (likely if they provide the machine :-), vpn back to law enforcement or some other mechanism. At this point there are a couple of issues that I'm not clear on yet. What form does the vpn have to be in. And it may not have to be a particular one. don't know yet. And what kind of security on the local cache machine will have to be in place? Will it have to be physically or electronically or both, isolated from the rest of the company? There are, of course, other difficult situations. I brought up these examples and more. It was agreed that there may not always be good resolutions etc. What happens if someone uses my FREE hotspot in town? It's a Linksys, I have NO way to get any useful data from it. If I change it out to a more powerful machine I incur substantial costs AND I tip off the perp that we've changed something for some reason. How about that hotel we sell service to? They won't have the ability to get useful data from their Linksys routers anymore than I could. And I have no way of determining who's doing what inside their network. Again, no good answers. I don't think we'll see perfection any time soon. But that doesn't mean we can't or shouldn't try to do our best. marlon - Original Message - From: "Rick Smith" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> To: "'WISPA General List'" Sent: Monday, February 12, 2007 9:44 PM Subject: RE: [WISPA] Form 445 Ya know Mac, not funny, at the same time, funny. I think Mark's got a point, albeit dooms-day-ish. There's no fiscal or physical way small WISPs can comply with CALEA, and I want to know HOW SPECIFICALLY to do it, if you think it CAN be done... -Original Message- From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] On Behalf Of Mac Dearman Sent: Tuesday, February 13, 2007 12:37 AM To: 'WISPA General List' Subject: RE: [WISPA] Form 445 Patients who experience an acute psychotic episode lasting longer than one day but less than one month and that may or may not immediately follow an important life stress or a pregnancy (with postpartum onset). This illness usually comes as a surprise as there is no forewarning that the person is likely to "break down," although this disorder is more common in people with a pre-existing personality disorder (particularly histrionic and borderline types). The main diagnostic criteria is as follows: The patient has at least one of the following that is not a culturally sanctioned response: 1. Delusions 2. Hallucinations 3. Speech that is markedly disorganized 4. Behavior that is markedly disorganized or catatonic. The patient has symptoms from 1 to 30 days and eventually recovers completely. The disturbance is not better accounted for by a Mood Disorder With Psychotic Features, Schizoaffective Disorder, or Schizophrenia and is not due to the direct physiological effects of a substance (e.g., a drug of abuse, a medication) or a general medical condition. Sincerely, Mac Dearman -Original Message- From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] On Behalf Of wispa Sent: Monday, February 12, 2007 10:52 PM To: WISPA General List Subject: RE: [WISPA] Form 445 On Mon, 12 Feb 2007 23:46:13 -0500, Rick Smith wrote I think I'm going to be the first to say this, but I don't have time to give a crap about calea. I'm taking advantage of an industry organization to
Re: CALEA - HOW? RE: [WISPA] Form 445
On Tue, 13 Feb 2007, Rick Smith wrote: OK, Don't point me to some confusing URL I don't have time (or patience) to read about how to comply with CALEA. The most difficult thing about the CALEA compliance issue is that the format of the data has not, yet, been finalized. This makes it impossible (IMNSHO) to determine exactly how compliance is gonna look. Here is what IS known: 1. You must be able to send the data (in a yet to be determined format) via a secure connection to the requesting LEA (law enforcement agency) 2. The LEA will supply you with a subpoena requesting information on a specific customer. 3. You must be able to capture (and forward) ALL traffic to and from that customer. This means even traffic between that customer and another of your customers, so a sniffer at the border is NOT enough. 4. The "target" cannot know his data is being logged. I don't think I missed any of the "major points". I have heard that PCAP (tcpdump or MT packet sniffer) format is possibly going to be an approved format, but it CANNOT be a "store and forward". In other words, it MUST be streamed to the LEA. I have heard, but I can't confirm (since, I am only an associate member) that the principle member's list has better insight into what WISPA is doing on behalf of the membership. (This was gleaned from various posts on the mailing list here, and is just an assumption.) Either way, membership is a good idea. ;-) If I missed anything, perhaps someone here can point it out. -- Butch Evans Network Engineering and Security Consulting 573-276-2879 http://www.butchevans.com/ My calendar: http://tinyurl.com/y24ad6 Training Partners: http://tinyurl.com/smfkf Mikrotik Certified Consultant http://www.mikrotik.com/consultants.html -- WISPA Wireless List: wireless@wispa.org Subscribe/Unsubscribe: http://lists.wispa.org/mailman/listinfo/wireless Archives: http://lists.wispa.org/pipermail/wireless/
RE: [WISPA] Form 445
On Mon, 12 Feb 2007, Mac Dearman wrote: The patient has at least one of the following that is not a culturally sanctioned response: 1. Delusions 2. Hallucinations 3. Speech that is markedly disorganized 4. Behavior that is markedly disorganized or catatonic. Mac! I didn't know you were a shrink! (Though your diagnosis DOES ring true.) -- Butch Evans Network Engineering and Security Consulting 573-276-2879 http://www.butchevans.com/ My calendar: http://tinyurl.com/y24ad6 Training Partners: http://tinyurl.com/smfkf Mikrotik Certified Consultant http://www.mikrotik.com/consultants.html -- WISPA Wireless List: wireless@wispa.org Subscribe/Unsubscribe: http://lists.wispa.org/mailman/listinfo/wireless Archives: http://lists.wispa.org/pipermail/wireless/
Re: [WISPA] Form 445
On Tue, 13 Feb 2007 01:03:27 -0600, Joe Laura wrote > My only question is if we do not know for sure exactly what we need > to be compliant by 5/14/07 is it smart to sign on the dotted line > saying we will be compliant? Am I missing something? The part that gets me... You have to state that you're on the way to compliance or you have to state what you're going to do. And from the comments on this list... I have yet to see anyone who has said they actually know either for sure. And I still want to know what they intend to do with all those little hobby, community, free, and other informal networks who FOR SURE are not filing, nor even know about it. > > Superior Wireless > New Orleans,La. > www.superior1.com > > -- > WISPA Wireless List: wireless@wispa.org > > Subscribe/Unsubscribe: > http://lists.wispa.org/mailman/listinfo/wireless > > Archives: http://lists.wispa.org/pipermail/wireless/ Mark Koskenmaki <> Neofast, Inc Broadband for the Walla Walla Valley and Blue Mountains 541-969-8200 -- WISPA Wireless List: wireless@wispa.org Subscribe/Unsubscribe: http://lists.wispa.org/mailman/listinfo/wireless Archives: http://lists.wispa.org/pipermail/wireless/
Re: [WISPA] Form 445
Well ask a question and we'll see. Guess if I'm supposed to be the messenger, it's me. If someone wants me to go and ask ridiculous politically radical questions, then forget about it. They can just dial the number and ask themselves. But a non political real question is no problem. George JohnnyO wrote: George - who decides what is "reasonable" or not ? Is this a personal decision ? Sorry to stick a thorn in here, but, I think Mark's questions are valid and should be asked on behalf of WISPA. JohnnyO -Original Message- From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] On Behalf Of George Rogato Sent: Monday, February 12, 2007 11:44 PM To: WISPA General List Subject: Re: [WISPA] Form 445 wispa wrote: You actually think that the "big guys" will actually let that happen? Yeah, I can see it now, our upstreams turning CALEA compliance into a profit center. Anyways if you want to bring your own tape recorder up to the feds and ask them some questions, go for it. But the offer still stands. Any reasonable question regarding the implementation of CALEA compliance I will be glad to ask. George -- George Rogato Welcome to WISPA www.wispa.org http://signup.wispa.org/ -- WISPA Wireless List: wireless@wispa.org Subscribe/Unsubscribe: http://lists.wispa.org/mailman/listinfo/wireless Archives: http://lists.wispa.org/pipermail/wireless/
Re: [WISPA] Form 445
My only question is if we do not know for sure exactly what we need to be compliant by 5/14/07 is it smart to sign on the dotted line saying we will be compliant? Am I missing something? Superior Wireless New Orleans,La. www.superior1.com -- WISPA Wireless List: wireless@wispa.org Subscribe/Unsubscribe: http://lists.wispa.org/mailman/listinfo/wireless Archives: http://lists.wispa.org/pipermail/wireless/
Re: [WISPA] Form 445
On Mon, 12 Feb 2007 21:44:20 -0800, George Rogato wrote > wispa wrote: > > > You actually think that the "big guys" will actually let that happen? > > Yeah, I can see it now, our upstreams turning CALEA compliance into > a profit center. > > Anyways if you want to bring your own tape recorder up to the feds > and ask them some questions, go for it. > > But the offer still stands. > > Any reasonable question regarding the implementation of CALEA > compliance I will be glad to ask. What is unreasonable about asking them about all the informal and semi-formal and little community, neighborhood, and other hobby networks out there? I suspect there's a lot of people who haven't even thought this far, and are so buried in 'big business' perspective they're going to be at a loss to be able to answer this. I consider the answer to this VITAL. Why? Because that's the key to understanding what the ultimate goal is. If they say "they're not the issue" then we REALLY have a big bullseye on our backs, and it's the big guys who painted it. If they intend to shut down or force compliance on every network, no matter how formed or how small, or under what auspices it was formed, then it's time for some activism to end this - the flow of information is not holy ground the government owns. This isn't political George. I don't know just where the line is for you, where you suddenly say "man, this is nuts, we shouldn't have to do this!" and you say so... But I am dumbfounded that without ANY idea of what impact this may have on you and your business and customers and employees PERSONALLY, you still are not even considering objecting. With the exception of Rick, I have yet to see anyone who seems to even think they should ever object. Instead, we're talking about going, hat in hand, saying "tell us what to do". People, WHAT ARE WE, men or sheep? Trust me, EVERY industry talks back..objects to excessive regulation. Many of them spend millions of dollars to try to influence Congress to back off. And we're afraid to even disagree, even if the cost is unemployment. ( shakes head ) Sorry guys. Until I was 25 years old, I followed everything my parents said without question. Then I guess I finally had my teenage rebellion years. Maybe they're not over with... but for some reason, I find myself saying GET THE BLOODY HECK OUTA MY BUSINESS to the government, and thinking I have not only the right, but the OBLIGATION to do this, merely because I am a citizen, and we ALL have that obligation to defend ourselves and our own best interests from excessive meddling. > > George > > -- > WISPA Wireless List: wireless@wispa.org > > Subscribe/Unsubscribe: > http://lists.wispa.org/mailman/listinfo/wireless > > Archives: http://lists.wispa.org/pipermail/wireless/ Mark Koskenmaki <> Neofast, Inc Broadband for the Walla Walla Valley and Blue Mountains 541-969-8200 -- WISPA Wireless List: wireless@wispa.org Subscribe/Unsubscribe: http://lists.wispa.org/mailman/listinfo/wireless Archives: http://lists.wispa.org/pipermail/wireless/
RE: [WISPA] Form 445
On Mon, 12 Feb 2007 23:55:19 -0600, Mac Dearman wrote > It's going to be to easy Rick. If everyone will hold their horses > and just "trot" for a short time they will get everything lined out. > The ability to stream live data is already in place here and it's > cheap. I don't know why it wouldn't be acceptable as it would be the > live data stream they would ask for. What they do with it is their > business, but that's just not a hard deal either. You're way too gullible if you think that. > > I wish folks wouldn't be alarmists at this point because it does > not help anyone or anything - it only tends to get folks feathers > ruffled over nothing. No point in stirring up the cows in the slaughter yard, true. > > Capturing the data that the FBI (or whoever) would want is a simple simple > thing. It shouldn't cost us over $100.00 to implement and like I aid > earlier - most of us already have a device(s) that can do this. > > Here is my thought on the matter: If some sleaze ball was calling my > 10 year old daughter and was on someone's wireless network - I would > want that bustard caught and put in jail - - with or without a subpoena!! I disagree. If some sleazeball were making obscene phone calls to my kids, I would want EVERY constituional requirement followed. I depend on that to defend myself, as well. > > Wouldn't you Mark? Or would you be hollering foul then as well?? Mac, this is apples and oranges. This is the FCC declaring that EVERY MEANS OF COMMUNICATION BE PRE-TAPPED at the expense of industry. Mark Koskenmaki <> Neofast, Inc Broadband for the Walla Walla Valley and Blue Mountains 541-969-8200 -- WISPA Wireless List: wireless@wispa.org Subscribe/Unsubscribe: http://lists.wispa.org/mailman/listinfo/wireless Archives: http://lists.wispa.org/pipermail/wireless/
RE: [WISPA] Form 445
George - who decides what is "reasonable" or not ? Is this a personal decision ? Sorry to stick a thorn in here, but, I think Mark's questions are valid and should be asked on behalf of WISPA. JohnnyO -Original Message- From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] On Behalf Of George Rogato Sent: Monday, February 12, 2007 11:44 PM To: WISPA General List Subject: Re: [WISPA] Form 445 wispa wrote: > You actually think that the "big guys" will actually let that happen? Yeah, I can see it now, our upstreams turning CALEA compliance into a profit center. Anyways if you want to bring your own tape recorder up to the feds and ask them some questions, go for it. But the offer still stands. Any reasonable question regarding the implementation of CALEA compliance I will be glad to ask. George -- WISPA Wireless List: wireless@wispa.org Subscribe/Unsubscribe: http://lists.wispa.org/mailman/listinfo/wireless Archives: http://lists.wispa.org/pipermail/wireless/ -- No virus found in this incoming message. Checked by AVG Free Edition. Version: 7.5.441 / Virus Database: 268.17.36/681 - Release Date: 2/11/2007 6:50 PM -- WISPA Wireless List: wireless@wispa.org Subscribe/Unsubscribe: http://lists.wispa.org/mailman/listinfo/wireless Archives: http://lists.wispa.org/pipermail/wireless/
Re: CALEA - HOW? RE: [WISPA] Form 445
On Tue, 13 Feb 2007 00:49:52 -0500, Rick Smith wrote > OK, Don't point me to some confusing URL I don't have time > (or patience) to read about how to comply with CALEA. > > How would you provide the "hook" in so the FBI could just > listen in at any time (is that the way it works ? Or do > they still need to provide a subpoena...) ? > > Others I'm sure will come up.. I've spent.. well... quite a bit of time watching for the "key" data to show up that answers those questions. I can't answer them. I can't find the information, either. The best I can find, is that you must provide either (can't tell which ) either all the data that goes to and from a specific user... OR a specific IP, provided in a specific format (don't know what that format is, can't find out) to the requesting LEA within 2 hours if it is an "amber alert" or 2 days if any other type of request. There is a data format or protocol which is supposed to be used, but I cant' find out what it is. I did manage to read that there will unlikely be any any open source implementations, since the protocol is not free or open and that the license is very costly. All I can find is that we're going to have to comply with "industry standards". I can't figure out who is creating those standards, or if those standards will be open for implementation, or we'll have to pay a license to those who created them. Mark Koskenmaki <> Neofast, Inc Broadband for the Walla Walla Valley and Blue Mountains 541-969-8200 -- WISPA Wireless List: wireless@wispa.org Subscribe/Unsubscribe: http://lists.wispa.org/mailman/listinfo/wireless Archives: http://lists.wispa.org/pipermail/wireless/
RE: [WISPA] Form 445
thanks Marlon... Got one more for you - what about the hotels that hook up to me for "virtual" hotspot authentication / billing services through Mikrotik's hotspot mechanism... am I or the Hotel responsible for capture ? heh. I'm sure there's many more questions... -Original Message- From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] On Behalf Of Marlon K. Schafer Sent: Tuesday, February 13, 2007 1:17 AM To: WISPA General List Subject: Re: [WISPA] Form 445 Rick, I've been talking with both the FCC and FBI. It's up in the air yet, but it looks like calea compliance won't be that big of a deal. We'll know much more after the Thursday meetings our guys are having. Here's what I understand so far I've gotten this from the head of the FBI's CALEA division (why more people don't pick up the phone is beyond me). We have to be able to copy a particular customer's data stream to a local machine. They do NOT want a stream cause they may not be able to receive it fast enough or data may get lost on the way to them. The local machine needs to have a way to transfer the data to them. That could be either via burning a disk, transfer of the entire machine (likely if they provide the machine :-), vpn back to law enforcement or some other mechanism. At this point there are a couple of issues that I'm not clear on yet. What form does the vpn have to be in. And it may not have to be a particular one. don't know yet. And what kind of security on the local cache machine will have to be in place? Will it have to be physically or electronically or both, isolated from the rest of the company? There are, of course, other difficult situations. I brought up these examples and more. It was agreed that there may not always be good resolutions etc. What happens if someone uses my FREE hotspot in town? It's a Linksys, I have NO way to get any useful data from it. If I change it out to a more powerful machine I incur substantial costs AND I tip off the perp that we've changed something for some reason. How about that hotel we sell service to? They won't have the ability to get useful data from their Linksys routers anymore than I could. And I have no way of determining who's doing what inside their network. Again, no good answers. I don't think we'll see perfection any time soon. But that doesn't mean we can't or shouldn't try to do our best. marlon - Original Message ----- From: "Rick Smith" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> To: "'WISPA General List'" Sent: Monday, February 12, 2007 9:44 PM Subject: RE: [WISPA] Form 445 > Ya know Mac, not funny, at the same time, funny. > > I think Mark's got a point, albeit dooms-day-ish. > > There's no fiscal or physical way small WISPs can comply > with CALEA, and I want to know HOW SPECIFICALLY to do it, > if you think it CAN be done... > > -----Original Message- > From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] On > Behalf Of Mac Dearman > Sent: Tuesday, February 13, 2007 12:37 AM > To: 'WISPA General List' > Subject: RE: [WISPA] Form 445 > > Patients who experience an acute psychotic episode lasting longer than one > day but less than one month and that may or may not immediately follow an > important life stress or a pregnancy (with postpartum onset). This illness > usually comes as a surprise as there is no forewarning that the person is > likely to "break down," although this disorder is more common in people > with > a pre-existing personality disorder (particularly histrionic and > borderline > types). The main diagnostic criteria is as follows: > > The patient has at least one of the following that is not a culturally > sanctioned response: > > 1. Delusions > 2. Hallucinations > 3. Speech that is markedly disorganized > 4. Behavior that is markedly disorganized or catatonic. > > The patient has symptoms from 1 to 30 days and eventually recovers > completely. > > The disturbance is not better accounted for by a Mood Disorder With > Psychotic Features, Schizoaffective Disorder, or Schizophrenia and is not > due to the direct physiological effects of a substance (e.g., a drug of > abuse, a medication) or a general medical condition. > > > > Sincerely, > Mac Dearman > > > > > -Original Message- > From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] On > Behalf Of wispa > Sent: Monday, February 12, 2007 10:52 PM > To: WISPA General List > Subject: RE: [WISPA] Form 445 > > On Mon, 12 Feb 2007 23:46:13 -0500, Rick Smith wrote >> I think I'm going to be the first to say this, but >> I don't have time to give a crap about calea. I'm >&
Re: [WISPA] Form 445
Rick, I've been talking with both the FCC and FBI. It's up in the air yet, but it looks like calea compliance won't be that big of a deal. We'll know much more after the Thursday meetings our guys are having. Here's what I understand so far I've gotten this from the head of the FBI's CALEA division (why more people don't pick up the phone is beyond me). We have to be able to copy a particular customer's data stream to a local machine. They do NOT want a stream cause they may not be able to receive it fast enough or data may get lost on the way to them. The local machine needs to have a way to transfer the data to them. That could be either via burning a disk, transfer of the entire machine (likely if they provide the machine :-), vpn back to law enforcement or some other mechanism. At this point there are a couple of issues that I'm not clear on yet. What form does the vpn have to be in. And it may not have to be a particular one. don't know yet. And what kind of security on the local cache machine will have to be in place? Will it have to be physically or electronically or both, isolated from the rest of the company? There are, of course, other difficult situations. I brought up these examples and more. It was agreed that there may not always be good resolutions etc. What happens if someone uses my FREE hotspot in town? It's a Linksys, I have NO way to get any useful data from it. If I change it out to a more powerful machine I incur substantial costs AND I tip off the perp that we've changed something for some reason. How about that hotel we sell service to? They won't have the ability to get useful data from their Linksys routers anymore than I could. And I have no way of determining who's doing what inside their network. Again, no good answers. I don't think we'll see perfection any time soon. But that doesn't mean we can't or shouldn't try to do our best. marlon - Original Message - From: "Rick Smith" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> To: "'WISPA General List'" Sent: Monday, February 12, 2007 9:44 PM Subject: RE: [WISPA] Form 445 Ya know Mac, not funny, at the same time, funny. I think Mark's got a point, albeit dooms-day-ish. There's no fiscal or physical way small WISPs can comply with CALEA, and I want to know HOW SPECIFICALLY to do it, if you think it CAN be done... -Original Message- From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] On Behalf Of Mac Dearman Sent: Tuesday, February 13, 2007 12:37 AM To: 'WISPA General List' Subject: RE: [WISPA] Form 445 Patients who experience an acute psychotic episode lasting longer than one day but less than one month and that may or may not immediately follow an important life stress or a pregnancy (with postpartum onset). This illness usually comes as a surprise as there is no forewarning that the person is likely to "break down," although this disorder is more common in people with a pre-existing personality disorder (particularly histrionic and borderline types). The main diagnostic criteria is as follows: The patient has at least one of the following that is not a culturally sanctioned response: 1. Delusions 2. Hallucinations 3. Speech that is markedly disorganized 4. Behavior that is markedly disorganized or catatonic. The patient has symptoms from 1 to 30 days and eventually recovers completely. The disturbance is not better accounted for by a Mood Disorder With Psychotic Features, Schizoaffective Disorder, or Schizophrenia and is not due to the direct physiological effects of a substance (e.g., a drug of abuse, a medication) or a general medical condition. Sincerely, Mac Dearman -Original Message----- From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] On Behalf Of wispa Sent: Monday, February 12, 2007 10:52 PM To: WISPA General List Subject: RE: [WISPA] Form 445 On Mon, 12 Feb 2007 23:46:13 -0500, Rick Smith wrote I think I'm going to be the first to say this, but I don't have time to give a crap about calea. I'm taking advantage of an industry organization to do something on my behalf, because I can't have the time to give a crap later when the FCC comes knocking after finding out I DIDN'T file... I predict that somewhere around 80% of small ISP's won't file. Many won't even know they have to. Just think, EVERY block size network. If you build out for your neighborhood and have 10 neighbors... YOU have to fork out the big bucks, YOU are now dead. You just don't know it yet, because you have no idea on earth that the federal govenrment has just taken wholesale control of the ISP business. Now, I run Mikrotik everywhere, and I've seen comments about packet monitoring "being OK" for compliance, and I'll STILL not do
Re: [WISPA] Form 445
George, I'm not sure if you got the note yet. But you guys are going to the Hoover building for that meeting! Into the belly of the beast! grin What *I'd* like to see happen is two fold. A: What the heck do we really have to do, in plain English please, in order to be compliant. B: You guys come up with a plan to put together a team to work with law enforcement on a WISP CALEA standard. In a perfect world you'd come back with answers and the basis for the standards team to start working toward. You'd know what kind of people should be on the standards team and help put that team together. Then, by May we'll have a standard in place and we can all just say that we're WISPA CALEA compliant. Good luck! marlon - Original Message - From: "George Rogato" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> To: "WISPA General List" Sent: Monday, February 12, 2007 9:44 PM Subject: Re: [WISPA] Form 445 wispa wrote: You actually think that the "big guys" will actually let that happen? Yeah, I can see it now, our upstreams turning CALEA compliance into a profit center. Anyways if you want to bring your own tape recorder up to the feds and ask them some questions, go for it. But the offer still stands. Any reasonable question regarding the implementation of CALEA compliance I will be glad to ask. George -- WISPA Wireless List: wireless@wispa.org Subscribe/Unsubscribe: http://lists.wispa.org/mailman/listinfo/wireless Archives: http://lists.wispa.org/pipermail/wireless/ -- WISPA Wireless List: wireless@wispa.org Subscribe/Unsubscribe: http://lists.wispa.org/mailman/listinfo/wireless Archives: http://lists.wispa.org/pipermail/wireless/
Re: [WISPA] Form 445
Get me in there!. Include me in WISPA 445 Filing WaveCrazy Communications Rick Herrmann wrote: "Include me in WISPA 445 Filing" Zing LLC Thanks! -Original Message- From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] On Behalf Of John Scrivner Sent: Monday, February 12, 2007 2:44 PM To: [EMAIL PROTECTED]; wireless@wispa.org Subject: [WISPA] Form 445 If you are a paid WISPA Principal Member then you do not have to worry about filing your CALEA Form 445. Kris Twomey is handling it for all paid WISPA Principal Members who want it done for them. They are allowing later filing now. Kris will be filing on behalf of all paid WISPA Principal Members. All you have to do is reply to the email and say, "Include me in WISPA 445 Filing" and include your official, legal company name. That's it. Your filing will be complete.This is being done as a benefit of WISPA membership at NO CHARGE TO YOU. To take advantage of this offer you MUST respond within 24 hours, by no later than 3 pm Central time on Tuesday, Feb 13th. If you are not already a paid WISPA member then this is not available to you unless you get us $250 before noon tomorrow Central time and fill out the form at http://signup.wispa.org. John Scrivner President WISPA -- WISPA Wireless List: wireless@wispa.org Subscribe/Unsubscribe: http://lists.wispa.org/mailman/listinfo/wireless Archives: http://lists.wispa.org/pipermail/wireless/
RE: [WISPA] Form 445
It's going to be to easy Rick. If everyone will hold their horses and just "trot" for a short time they will get everything lined out. The ability to stream live data is already in place here and it's cheap. I don't know why it wouldn't be acceptable as it would be the live data stream they would ask for. What they do with it is their business, but that's just not a hard deal either. I wish folks wouldn't be alarmists at this point because it does not help anyone or anything - it only tends to get folks feathers ruffled over nothing. Capturing the data that the FBI (or whoever) would want is a simple simple thing. It shouldn't cost us over $100.00 to implement and like I aid earlier - most of us already have a device(s) that can do this. Here is my thought on the matter: If some sleaze ball was calling my 10 year old daughter and was on someone's wireless network - I would want that bustard caught and put in jail - - with or without a subpoena!! Wouldn't you Mark? Or would you be hollering foul then as well?? Mac Dearman -Original Message- From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] On Behalf Of Rick Smith Sent: Monday, February 12, 2007 11:45 PM To: 'WISPA General List' Subject: RE: [WISPA] Form 445 Ya know Mac, not funny, at the same time, funny. I think Mark's got a point, albeit dooms-day-ish. There's no fiscal or physical way small WISPs can comply with CALEA, and I want to know HOW SPECIFICALLY to do it, if you think it CAN be done... -Original Message- From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] On Behalf Of Mac Dearman Sent: Tuesday, February 13, 2007 12:37 AM To: 'WISPA General List' Subject: RE: [WISPA] Form 445 Patients who experience an acute psychotic episode lasting longer than one day but less than one month and that may or may not immediately follow an important life stress or a pregnancy (with postpartum onset). This illness usually comes as a surprise as there is no forewarning that the person is likely to "break down," although this disorder is more common in people with a pre-existing personality disorder (particularly histrionic and borderline types). The main diagnostic criteria is as follows: The patient has at least one of the following that is not a culturally sanctioned response: 1. Delusions 2. Hallucinations 3. Speech that is markedly disorganized 4. Behavior that is markedly disorganized or catatonic. The patient has symptoms from 1 to 30 days and eventually recovers completely. The disturbance is not better accounted for by a Mood Disorder With Psychotic Features, Schizoaffective Disorder, or Schizophrenia and is not due to the direct physiological effects of a substance (e.g., a drug of abuse, a medication) or a general medical condition. Sincerely, Mac Dearman -Original Message- From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] On Behalf Of wispa Sent: Monday, February 12, 2007 10:52 PM To: WISPA General List Subject: RE: [WISPA] Form 445 On Mon, 12 Feb 2007 23:46:13 -0500, Rick Smith wrote > I think I'm going to be the first to say this, but > I don't have time to give a crap about calea. I'm > taking advantage of an industry organization to do > something on my behalf, because I can't have the > time to give a crap later when the FCC comes knocking > after finding out I DIDN'T file... I predict that somewhere around 80% of small ISP's won't file. Many won't even know they have to. Just think, EVERY block size network. If you build out for your neighborhood and have 10 neighbors... YOU have to fork out the big bucks, YOU are now dead. You just don't know it yet, because you have no idea on earth that the federal govenrment has just taken wholesale control of the ISP business. > > Now, I run Mikrotik everywhere, and I've seen comments > about packet monitoring "being OK" for compliance, and > I'll STILL not do anything until I'm provided with a > subpoena, but I figure having the paperwork THERE is > probably a necessary evil. > You can bet that any "industry" standard derived will derived with the input from the telecoms to bankrupt as many small ISP's as possible. I predict that in 2 years there will not be enough WISP's left to fund WISPA at all, unless the dues go up on the order 20 to 50 times. > This, in my opinion, is just big brother licensed > extortion for the little guys. Paying a TPP for > snooping on your customers is just crap. But, what > are you going to do ? You're going to pay and then you're going to go out of business. Mark Koskenmaki <> Neofast, Inc Broadband for the Walla Walla Valley and Blue Mountains 541-969-8200 -- WISPA Wireless List: wi
CALEA - HOW? RE: [WISPA] Form 445
OK, Don't point me to some confusing URL I don't have time (or patience) to read about how to comply with CALEA. What are YOU as a WISP doing to comply ? How much is it costing you ? What technology ? How would you provide the "hook" in so the FBI could just listen in at any time (is that the way it works ? Or do they still need to provide a subpoena...) ? Others I'm sure will come up.. R -Original Message- From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] On Behalf Of George Rogato Sent: Tuesday, February 13, 2007 12:44 AM To: WISPA General List Subject: Re: [WISPA] Form 445 wispa wrote: > You actually think that the "big guys" will actually let that happen? Yeah, I can see it now, our upstreams turning CALEA compliance into a profit center. Anyways if you want to bring your own tape recorder up to the feds and ask them some questions, go for it. But the offer still stands. Any reasonable question regarding the implementation of CALEA compliance I will be glad to ask. George -- WISPA Wireless List: wireless@wispa.org Subscribe/Unsubscribe: http://lists.wispa.org/mailman/listinfo/wireless Archives: http://lists.wispa.org/pipermail/wireless/ -- WISPA Wireless List: wireless@wispa.org Subscribe/Unsubscribe: http://lists.wispa.org/mailman/listinfo/wireless Archives: http://lists.wispa.org/pipermail/wireless/
RE: [WISPA] Form 445
Ya know Mac, not funny, at the same time, funny. I think Mark's got a point, albeit dooms-day-ish. There's no fiscal or physical way small WISPs can comply with CALEA, and I want to know HOW SPECIFICALLY to do it, if you think it CAN be done... -Original Message- From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] On Behalf Of Mac Dearman Sent: Tuesday, February 13, 2007 12:37 AM To: 'WISPA General List' Subject: RE: [WISPA] Form 445 Patients who experience an acute psychotic episode lasting longer than one day but less than one month and that may or may not immediately follow an important life stress or a pregnancy (with postpartum onset). This illness usually comes as a surprise as there is no forewarning that the person is likely to "break down," although this disorder is more common in people with a pre-existing personality disorder (particularly histrionic and borderline types). The main diagnostic criteria is as follows: The patient has at least one of the following that is not a culturally sanctioned response: 1. Delusions 2. Hallucinations 3. Speech that is markedly disorganized 4. Behavior that is markedly disorganized or catatonic. The patient has symptoms from 1 to 30 days and eventually recovers completely. The disturbance is not better accounted for by a Mood Disorder With Psychotic Features, Schizoaffective Disorder, or Schizophrenia and is not due to the direct physiological effects of a substance (e.g., a drug of abuse, a medication) or a general medical condition. Sincerely, Mac Dearman -Original Message- From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] On Behalf Of wispa Sent: Monday, February 12, 2007 10:52 PM To: WISPA General List Subject: RE: [WISPA] Form 445 On Mon, 12 Feb 2007 23:46:13 -0500, Rick Smith wrote > I think I'm going to be the first to say this, but > I don't have time to give a crap about calea. I'm > taking advantage of an industry organization to do > something on my behalf, because I can't have the > time to give a crap later when the FCC comes knocking > after finding out I DIDN'T file... I predict that somewhere around 80% of small ISP's won't file. Many won't even know they have to. Just think, EVERY block size network. If you build out for your neighborhood and have 10 neighbors... YOU have to fork out the big bucks, YOU are now dead. You just don't know it yet, because you have no idea on earth that the federal govenrment has just taken wholesale control of the ISP business. > > Now, I run Mikrotik everywhere, and I've seen comments > about packet monitoring "being OK" for compliance, and > I'll STILL not do anything until I'm provided with a > subpoena, but I figure having the paperwork THERE is > probably a necessary evil. > You can bet that any "industry" standard derived will derived with the input from the telecoms to bankrupt as many small ISP's as possible. I predict that in 2 years there will not be enough WISP's left to fund WISPA at all, unless the dues go up on the order 20 to 50 times. > This, in my opinion, is just big brother licensed > extortion for the little guys. Paying a TPP for > snooping on your customers is just crap. But, what > are you going to do ? You're going to pay and then you're going to go out of business. Mark Koskenmaki <> Neofast, Inc Broadband for the Walla Walla Valley and Blue Mountains 541-969-8200 -- WISPA Wireless List: wireless@wispa.org Subscribe/Unsubscribe: http://lists.wispa.org/mailman/listinfo/wireless Archives: http://lists.wispa.org/pipermail/wireless/ -- WISPA Wireless List: wireless@wispa.org Subscribe/Unsubscribe: http://lists.wispa.org/mailman/listinfo/wireless Archives: http://lists.wispa.org/pipermail/wireless/ -- WISPA Wireless List: wireless@wispa.org Subscribe/Unsubscribe: http://lists.wispa.org/mailman/listinfo/wireless Archives: http://lists.wispa.org/pipermail/wireless/
Re: [WISPA] Form 445
wispa wrote: You actually think that the "big guys" will actually let that happen? Yeah, I can see it now, our upstreams turning CALEA compliance into a profit center. Anyways if you want to bring your own tape recorder up to the feds and ask them some questions, go for it. But the offer still stands. Any reasonable question regarding the implementation of CALEA compliance I will be glad to ask. George -- WISPA Wireless List: wireless@wispa.org Subscribe/Unsubscribe: http://lists.wispa.org/mailman/listinfo/wireless Archives: http://lists.wispa.org/pipermail/wireless/
RE: [WISPA] Form 445
Patients who experience an acute psychotic episode lasting longer than one day but less than one month and that may or may not immediately follow an important life stress or a pregnancy (with postpartum onset). This illness usually comes as a surprise as there is no forewarning that the person is likely to "break down," although this disorder is more common in people with a pre-existing personality disorder (particularly histrionic and borderline types). The main diagnostic criteria is as follows: The patient has at least one of the following that is not a culturally sanctioned response: 1. Delusions 2. Hallucinations 3. Speech that is markedly disorganized 4. Behavior that is markedly disorganized or catatonic. The patient has symptoms from 1 to 30 days and eventually recovers completely. The disturbance is not better accounted for by a Mood Disorder With Psychotic Features, Schizoaffective Disorder, or Schizophrenia and is not due to the direct physiological effects of a substance (e.g., a drug of abuse, a medication) or a general medical condition. Sincerely, Mac Dearman -Original Message- From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] On Behalf Of wispa Sent: Monday, February 12, 2007 10:52 PM To: WISPA General List Subject: RE: [WISPA] Form 445 On Mon, 12 Feb 2007 23:46:13 -0500, Rick Smith wrote > I think I'm going to be the first to say this, but > I don't have time to give a crap about calea. I'm > taking advantage of an industry organization to do > something on my behalf, because I can't have the > time to give a crap later when the FCC comes knocking > after finding out I DIDN'T file... I predict that somewhere around 80% of small ISP's won't file. Many won't even know they have to. Just think, EVERY block size network. If you build out for your neighborhood and have 10 neighbors... YOU have to fork out the big bucks, YOU are now dead. You just don't know it yet, because you have no idea on earth that the federal govenrment has just taken wholesale control of the ISP business. > > Now, I run Mikrotik everywhere, and I've seen comments > about packet monitoring "being OK" for compliance, and > I'll STILL not do anything until I'm provided with a > subpoena, but I figure having the paperwork THERE is > probably a necessary evil. > You can bet that any "industry" standard derived will derived with the input from the telecoms to bankrupt as many small ISP's as possible. I predict that in 2 years there will not be enough WISP's left to fund WISPA at all, unless the dues go up on the order 20 to 50 times. > This, in my opinion, is just big brother licensed > extortion for the little guys. Paying a TPP for > snooping on your customers is just crap. But, what > are you going to do ? You're going to pay and then you're going to go out of business. Mark Koskenmaki <> Neofast, Inc Broadband for the Walla Walla Valley and Blue Mountains 541-969-8200 -- WISPA Wireless List: wireless@wispa.org Subscribe/Unsubscribe: http://lists.wispa.org/mailman/listinfo/wireless Archives: http://lists.wispa.org/pipermail/wireless/ -- WISPA Wireless List: wireless@wispa.org Subscribe/Unsubscribe: http://lists.wispa.org/mailman/listinfo/wireless Archives: http://lists.wispa.org/pipermail/wireless/
RE: [WISPA] Form 445
On Mon, 12 Feb 2007 23:22:12 -0600, JohnnyO wrote I'm not a pessimist at all. I just know what federal regulation means. It means WE GO AWAY. Federal regulation is the DEATH of small business. I have no doubt the Telcos and Cablecos are no doubt celebrating big time. What they could not do to wipe out competition the federal government does for them. > Doom and Gloom eh Mark ? Damn man - the big pessimist (sp?) > > JohnnyO > Mark Koskenmaki <> Neofast, Inc Broadband for the Walla Walla Valley and Blue Mountains 541-969-8200 -- WISPA Wireless List: wireless@wispa.org Subscribe/Unsubscribe: http://lists.wispa.org/mailman/listinfo/wireless Archives: http://lists.wispa.org/pipermail/wireless/
Re: [WISPA] Form 445
On Mon, 12 Feb 2007 21:04:37 -0800, George Rogato wrote > I predict the little guy will end up giving all his subs publics and > passing the ball to their upstreams, and probably-most likely for a > price. I find it hard to believe this is not going to be an option. You actually think that the "big guys" will actually let that happen? Come on. What are you smoking? This is thier chance to wipe out all those pesky little guys and own it all. And the FCC and feds will cheer at the "order" forced from "chaos". > > We'll find out more Thursday when we meet at the Hoover Building in > DC to talk to the FBI and Homeland Security about CALEA. > > If anyone has any questions they want answered, nows the time to put > them in print. Yeah. "Could you please quote the constitutional authority for this, please cite relevant sections and paragraphs." Oh, and "What do you intend to do to prevent small neighborhood networks, informal internet access via voluntary and cooperative systems, free networks, and open and free networks from continuing to be non-compliant and even unaware of the requirements?" I would like the answer to those on tape and in writing. And then we need to work at launching the largest "industry and public" backlash ever, to end this sort of stuff and ensure it NEVER comes back. Mark Koskenmaki <> Neofast, Inc Broadband for the Walla Walla Valley and Blue Mountains 541-969-8200 -- WISPA Wireless List: wireless@wispa.org Subscribe/Unsubscribe: http://lists.wispa.org/mailman/listinfo/wireless Archives: http://lists.wispa.org/pipermail/wireless/
RE: [WISPA] Form 445
Doom and Gloom eh Mark ? Damn man - the big pessimist (sp?) JohnnyO -Original Message- From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] On Behalf Of wispa Sent: Monday, February 12, 2007 10:52 PM To: WISPA General List Subject: RE: [WISPA] Form 445 On Mon, 12 Feb 2007 23:46:13 -0500, Rick Smith wrote > I think I'm going to be the first to say this, but > I don't have time to give a crap about calea. I'm > taking advantage of an industry organization to do > something on my behalf, because I can't have the > time to give a crap later when the FCC comes knocking > after finding out I DIDN'T file... I predict that somewhere around 80% of small ISP's won't file. Many won't even know they have to. Just think, EVERY block size network. If you build out for your neighborhood and have 10 neighbors... YOU have to fork out the big bucks, YOU are now dead. You just don't know it yet, because you have no idea on earth that the federal govenrment has just taken wholesale control of the ISP business. > > Now, I run Mikrotik everywhere, and I've seen comments > about packet monitoring "being OK" for compliance, and > I'll STILL not do anything until I'm provided with a > subpoena, but I figure having the paperwork THERE is > probably a necessary evil. > You can bet that any "industry" standard derived will derived with the input from the telecoms to bankrupt as many small ISP's as possible. I predict that in 2 years there will not be enough WISP's left to fund WISPA at all, unless the dues go up on the order 20 to 50 times. > This, in my opinion, is just big brother licensed > extortion for the little guys. Paying a TPP for > snooping on your customers is just crap. But, what > are you going to do ? You're going to pay and then you're going to go out of business. Mark Koskenmaki <> Neofast, Inc Broadband for the Walla Walla Valley and Blue Mountains 541-969-8200 -- WISPA Wireless List: wireless@wispa.org Subscribe/Unsubscribe: http://lists.wispa.org/mailman/listinfo/wireless Archives: http://lists.wispa.org/pipermail/wireless/ -- No virus found in this incoming message. Checked by AVG Free Edition. Version: 7.5.441 / Virus Database: 268.17.36/681 - Release Date: 2/11/2007 6:50 PM -- WISPA Wireless List: wireless@wispa.org Subscribe/Unsubscribe: http://lists.wispa.org/mailman/listinfo/wireless Archives: http://lists.wispa.org/pipermail/wireless/
Re: [WISPA] Form 445
I predict the little guy will end up giving all his subs publics and passing the ball to their upstreams, and probably-most likely for a price. I find it hard to believe this is not going to be an option. We'll find out more Thursday when we meet at the Hoover Building in DC to talk to the FBI and Homeland Security about CALEA. If anyone has any questions they want answered, nows the time to put them in print. George wispa wrote: On Mon, 12 Feb 2007 23:46:13 -0500, Rick Smith wrote I think I'm going to be the first to say this, but I don't have time to give a crap about calea. I'm taking advantage of an industry organization to do something on my behalf, because I can't have the time to give a crap later when the FCC comes knocking after finding out I DIDN'T file... I predict that somewhere around 80% of small ISP's won't file. Many won't even know they have to. Just think, EVERY block size network. If you build out for your neighborhood and have 10 neighbors... YOU have to fork out the big bucks, YOU are now dead. You just don't know it yet, because you have no idea on earth that the federal govenrment has just taken wholesale control of the ISP business. Now, I run Mikrotik everywhere, and I've seen comments about packet monitoring "being OK" for compliance, and I'll STILL not do anything until I'm provided with a subpoena, but I figure having the paperwork THERE is probably a necessary evil. You can bet that any "industry" standard derived will derived with the input from the telecoms to bankrupt as many small ISP's as possible. I predict that in 2 years there will not be enough WISP's left to fund WISPA at all, unless the dues go up on the order 20 to 50 times. This, in my opinion, is just big brother licensed extortion for the little guys. Paying a TPP for snooping on your customers is just crap. But, what are you going to do ? You're going to pay and then you're going to go out of business. Mark Koskenmaki <> Neofast, Inc Broadband for the Walla Walla Valley and Blue Mountains 541-969-8200 -- George Rogato Welcome to WISPA www.wispa.org http://signup.wispa.org/ -- WISPA Wireless List: wireless@wispa.org Subscribe/Unsubscribe: http://lists.wispa.org/mailman/listinfo/wireless Archives: http://lists.wispa.org/pipermail/wireless/
RE: [WISPA] Form 445
On Mon, 12 Feb 2007 23:46:13 -0500, Rick Smith wrote > I think I'm going to be the first to say this, but > I don't have time to give a crap about calea. I'm > taking advantage of an industry organization to do > something on my behalf, because I can't have the > time to give a crap later when the FCC comes knocking > after finding out I DIDN'T file... I predict that somewhere around 80% of small ISP's won't file. Many won't even know they have to. Just think, EVERY block size network. If you build out for your neighborhood and have 10 neighbors... YOU have to fork out the big bucks, YOU are now dead. You just don't know it yet, because you have no idea on earth that the federal govenrment has just taken wholesale control of the ISP business. > > Now, I run Mikrotik everywhere, and I've seen comments > about packet monitoring "being OK" for compliance, and > I'll STILL not do anything until I'm provided with a > subpoena, but I figure having the paperwork THERE is > probably a necessary evil. > You can bet that any "industry" standard derived will derived with the input from the telecoms to bankrupt as many small ISP's as possible. I predict that in 2 years there will not be enough WISP's left to fund WISPA at all, unless the dues go up on the order 20 to 50 times. > This, in my opinion, is just big brother licensed > extortion for the little guys. Paying a TPP for > snooping on your customers is just crap. But, what > are you going to do ? You're going to pay and then you're going to go out of business. Mark Koskenmaki <> Neofast, Inc Broadband for the Walla Walla Valley and Blue Mountains 541-969-8200 -- WISPA Wireless List: wireless@wispa.org Subscribe/Unsubscribe: http://lists.wispa.org/mailman/listinfo/wireless Archives: http://lists.wispa.org/pipermail/wireless/
RE: [WISPA] Form 445
I think I'm going to be the first to say this, but I don't have time to give a crap about calea. I'm taking advantage of an industry organization to do something on my behalf, because I can't have the time to give a crap later when the FCC comes knocking after finding out I DIDN'T file... Now, I run Mikrotik everywhere, and I've seen comments about packet monitoring "being OK" for compliance, and I'll STILL not do anything until I'm provided with a subpoena, but I figure having the paperwork THERE is probably a necessary evil. This, in my opinion, is just big brother licensed extortion for the little guys. Paying a TPP for snooping on your customers is just crap. But, what are you going to do ? -Original Message- From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] On Behalf Of Eric Merkel Sent: Monday, February 12, 2007 9:36 PM To: WISPA General List Subject: Re: [WISPA] Form 445 On 2/12/07, John Scrivner <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote: > Kris Twomey has told me he can do this and that it will meet the > requirements for filing. It is not a terribly difficult thing to do but > it is just easy to use an attorney for anything like this. I do not > bother trying to meet every legal filing requirement. I consider that my > attorney's job and use an attorney for all such issues. Kris is doing > this for WISPA because he is paid by us to do such things and because he > as already working for us on CALEA issues. It was simple for him to be > part of the process. > Scriv > I don't like filling out paper work either, but it kinda concerns me that people aren't taking CALEA compliance seriously if they can't take 10 minutes to fill in their company name, get an FRN number, and answer whether or not they will be compliant when May rolls around. Ultimately, THEY are responsible and have to have an officer of the company sign that document. In any case, I am not trying to be disagreeable just a little puzzled. -Eric -- WISPA Wireless List: wireless@wispa.org Subscribe/Unsubscribe: http://lists.wispa.org/mailman/listinfo/wireless Archives: http://lists.wispa.org/pipermail/wireless/ -- WISPA Wireless List: wireless@wispa.org Subscribe/Unsubscribe: http://lists.wispa.org/mailman/listinfo/wireless Archives: http://lists.wispa.org/pipermail/wireless/
RE: [WISPA] Form 445
Include me in WISPA 445 Filing Aeronet Wireless Broadband Corp. Gino A. Villarini [EMAIL PROTECTED] Aeronet Wireless Broadband Corp. tel 787.273.4143 fax 787.273.4145 -Original Message- From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] On Behalf Of John Scrivner Sent: Monday, February 12, 2007 5:01 PM To: [EMAIL PROTECTED]; wireless@wispa.org Subject: [WISPA] Form 445 If you are a paid WISPA Principal Member then you do not have to worry about filing your CALEA Form 445. Kris Twomey is handling it for all paid WISPA Principal Members who want it done for them. They are allowing later filing now. Kris will be filing on behalf of all paid WISPA Principal Members. All you have to do is reply to the email and say, "Include me in WISPA 445 Filing" and include your official, legal company name. That's it. Your filing will be complete.This is being done as a benefit of WISPA membership at NO CHARGE TO YOU. To take advantage of this offer you MUST respond within 24 hours, by no later than 3 pm Central time on Tuesday, Feb 13th. If you are not already a paid WISPA member then this is not available to you unless you get us $250 before noon tomorrow Central time and fill out the form at http://signup.wispa.org. John Scrivner President WISPA -- WISPA Wireless List: wireless@wispa.org Subscribe/Unsubscribe: http://lists.wispa.org/mailman/listinfo/wireless Archives: http://lists.wispa.org/pipermail/wireless/ -- WISPA Wireless List: wireless@wispa.org Subscribe/Unsubscribe: http://lists.wispa.org/mailman/listinfo/wireless Archives: http://lists.wispa.org/pipermail/wireless/
Re: [WISPA] Form 445
On 2/12/07, John Scrivner <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote: Kris Twomey has told me he can do this and that it will meet the requirements for filing. It is not a terribly difficult thing to do but it is just easy to use an attorney for anything like this. I do not bother trying to meet every legal filing requirement. I consider that my attorney's job and use an attorney for all such issues. Kris is doing this for WISPA because he is paid by us to do such things and because he as already working for us on CALEA issues. It was simple for him to be part of the process. Scriv I don't like filling out paper work either, but it kinda concerns me that people aren't taking CALEA compliance seriously if they can't take 10 minutes to fill in their company name, get an FRN number, and answer whether or not they will be compliant when May rolls around. Ultimately, THEY are responsible and have to have an officer of the company sign that document. In any case, I am not trying to be disagreeable just a little puzzled. -Eric -- WISPA Wireless List: wireless@wispa.org Subscribe/Unsubscribe: http://lists.wispa.org/mailman/listinfo/wireless Archives: http://lists.wispa.org/pipermail/wireless/
RE: [WISPA] Form 445
Erik - are you a paid member of WISPA ? JohnnyO -Original Message- From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] On Behalf Of Eric Merkel Sent: Monday, February 12, 2007 5:47 PM To: WISPA General List Subject: Re: [WISPA] Form 445 On 2/12/07, John Scrivner <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote: > If you are a paid WISPA Principal Member then you do not have to worry > about filing your CALEA Form 445. Kris Twomey is handling it for all > paid WISPA Principal Members who want it done for them. They are > allowing later filing now. Kris will be filing on behalf of all paid > WISPA Principal Members. All you have to do is reply to the email and > say, "Include me in WISPA 445 Filing" and include your official, legal > company name. That's it. Your filing will be complete.This is being done > as a benefit of WISPA membership at NO CHARGE TO YOU. To take advantage > of this offer you MUST respond within 24 hours, by no later than 3 pm > Central time on Tuesday, Feb 13th. If you are not already a paid WISPA > member then this is not available to you unless you get us $250 before > noon tomorrow Central time and fill out the form at http://signup.wispa.org. > John Scrivner > President > WISPA > -- Just a silly question, but why is filling out this form such a big deal for everyone? It's only 10 questions basically asking you if you will be compliant or not by 5/14/07. Also it has to be signed by an officer of the company that is being reported for. How can WISPA file on behalf of these companies? -Eric -- WISPA Wireless List: wireless@wispa.org Subscribe/Unsubscribe: http://lists.wispa.org/mailman/listinfo/wireless Archives: http://lists.wispa.org/pipermail/wireless/ -- WISPA Wireless List: wireless@wispa.org Subscribe/Unsubscribe: http://lists.wispa.org/mailman/listinfo/wireless Archives: http://lists.wispa.org/pipermail/wireless/
RE: [WISPA] Form 445
"Include me in WISPA 445 Filing" Eric Rogers Precision Data Solutions, LLC 7 W Main Street Mooresville, IN 46158 (317) 831-3000 From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] on behalf of John Scrivner Sent: Mon 2/12/2007 3:44 PM To: [EMAIL PROTECTED]; wireless@wispa.org Subject: [WISPA] Form 445 If you are a paid WISPA Principal Member then you do not have to worry about filing your CALEA Form 445. Kris Twomey is handling it for all paid WISPA Principal Members who want it done for them. They are allowing later filing now. Kris will be filing on behalf of all paid WISPA Principal Members. All you have to do is reply to the email and say, "Include me in WISPA 445 Filing" and include your official, legal company name. That's it. Your filing will be complete.This is being done as a benefit of WISPA membership at NO CHARGE TO YOU. To take advantage of this offer you MUST respond within 24 hours, by no later than 3 pm Central time on Tuesday, Feb 13th. If you are not already a paid WISPA member then this is not available to you unless you get us $250 before noon tomorrow Central time and fill out the form at http://signup.wispa.org. John Scrivner President WISPA -- WISPA Wireless List: wireless@wispa.org Subscribe/Unsubscribe: http://lists.wispa.org/mailman/listinfo/wireless Archives: http://lists.wispa.org/pipermail/wireless/ <>-- WISPA Wireless List: wireless@wispa.org Subscribe/Unsubscribe: http://lists.wispa.org/mailman/listinfo/wireless Archives: http://lists.wispa.org/pipermail/wireless/
Re: [WISPA] Form 445
Kris Twomey has told me he can do this and that it will meet the requirements for filing. It is not a terribly difficult thing to do but it is just easy to use an attorney for anything like this. I do not bother trying to meet every legal filing requirement. I consider that my attorney's job and use an attorney for all such issues. Kris is doing this for WISPA because he is paid by us to do such things and because he as already working for us on CALEA issues. It was simple for him to be part of the process. Scriv Eric Merkel wrote: On 2/12/07, John Scrivner <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote: If you are a paid WISPA Principal Member then you do not have to worry about filing your CALEA Form 445. Kris Twomey is handling it for all paid WISPA Principal Members who want it done for them. They are allowing later filing now. Kris will be filing on behalf of all paid WISPA Principal Members. All you have to do is reply to the email and say, "Include me in WISPA 445 Filing" and include your official, legal company name. That's it. Your filing will be complete.This is being done as a benefit of WISPA membership at NO CHARGE TO YOU. To take advantage of this offer you MUST respond within 24 hours, by no later than 3 pm Central time on Tuesday, Feb 13th. If you are not already a paid WISPA member then this is not available to you unless you get us $250 before noon tomorrow Central time and fill out the form at http://signup.wispa.org. John Scrivner President WISPA -- Just a silly question, but why is filling out this form such a big deal for everyone? It's only 10 questions basically asking you if you will be compliant or not by 5/14/07. Also it has to be signed by an officer of the company that is being reported for. How can WISPA file on behalf of these companies? -Eric -- WISPA Wireless List: wireless@wispa.org Subscribe/Unsubscribe: http://lists.wispa.org/mailman/listinfo/wireless Archives: http://lists.wispa.org/pipermail/wireless/
RE: [WISPA] Form 445
A Canadian company that I was talking to thought it was just a matter of time until they had the same sort of regs. -Original Message- From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] On Behalf Of Matt Sent: Monday, February 12, 2007 4:35 PM To: WISPA General List Subject: Re: [WISPA] Form 445 > Kris Twomey says he can handle our filing on behalf of all WISPA > members and that he can do it with just a company name for now. He > will file for all of WISPA operators who wish and include company > names of those who want to be included. No names will be included who > have already filed themselves or do not wish to file for whatever reason. > Obviously a > Canadian company would not need to file a US mandated issue like this. Sure would be funny if they did though. ;<) Matt -- WISPA Wireless List: wireless@wispa.org Subscribe/Unsubscribe: http://lists.wispa.org/mailman/listinfo/wireless Archives: http://lists.wispa.org/pipermail/wireless/ -- WISPA Wireless List: wireless@wispa.org Subscribe/Unsubscribe: http://lists.wispa.org/mailman/listinfo/wireless Archives: http://lists.wispa.org/pipermail/wireless/
Re: [WISPA] Form 445
John. Include CV-Access, Inc. Thanks, Tim Kerns - Original Message - From: "John Scrivner" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> To: "WISPA General List" Sent: Monday, February 12, 2007 1:25 PM Subject: Re: [WISPA] Form 445 Kris Twomey says he can handle our filing on behalf of all WISPA members and that he can do it with just a company name for now. He will file for all of WISPA operators who wish and include company names of those who want to be included. No names will be included who have already filed themselves or do not wish to file for whatever reason. Obviously a Canadian company would not need to file a US mandated issue like this. Are you wanting to be included? Scriv cw wrote: This is wonderful but you would need our FRN. Are you saying we don't have to have this postmarked today? John Scrivner wrote: If you are a paid WISPA Principal Member then you do not have to worry about filing your CALEA Form 445. Kris Twomey is handling it for all paid WISPA Principal Members who want it done for them. They are allowing later filing now. Kris will be filing on behalf of all paid WISPA Principal Members. All you have to do is reply to the email and say, "Include me in WISPA 445 Filing" and include your official, legal company name. That's it. Your filing will be complete.This is being done as a benefit of WISPA membership at NO CHARGE TO YOU. To take advantage of this offer you MUST respond within 24 hours, by no later than 3 pm Central time on Tuesday, Feb 13th. If you are not already a paid WISPA member then this is not available to you unless you get us $250 before noon tomorrow Central time and fill out the form at http://signup.wispa.org. John Scrivner President WISPA -- WISPA Wireless List: wireless@wispa.org Subscribe/Unsubscribe: http://lists.wispa.org/mailman/listinfo/wireless Archives: http://lists.wispa.org/pipermail/wireless/ -- WISPA Wireless List: wireless@wispa.org Subscribe/Unsubscribe: http://lists.wispa.org/mailman/listinfo/wireless Archives: http://lists.wispa.org/pipermail/wireless/
RE: [WISPA] Form 445
"Include me in WISPA 445 Filing" Washington Broadband, Inc. -- No virus found in this outgoing message. Checked by AVG Free Edition. Version: 7.1.411 / Virus Database: 268.17.37/682 - Release Date: 2/12/2007 -- WISPA Wireless List: wireless@wispa.org Subscribe/Unsubscribe: http://lists.wispa.org/mailman/listinfo/wireless Archives: http://lists.wispa.org/pipermail/wireless/
Re: [WISPA] Form 445
On 2/12/07, John Scrivner <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote: If you are a paid WISPA Principal Member then you do not have to worry about filing your CALEA Form 445. Kris Twomey is handling it for all paid WISPA Principal Members who want it done for them. They are allowing later filing now. Kris will be filing on behalf of all paid WISPA Principal Members. All you have to do is reply to the email and say, "Include me in WISPA 445 Filing" and include your official, legal company name. That's it. Your filing will be complete.This is being done as a benefit of WISPA membership at NO CHARGE TO YOU. To take advantage of this offer you MUST respond within 24 hours, by no later than 3 pm Central time on Tuesday, Feb 13th. If you are not already a paid WISPA member then this is not available to you unless you get us $250 before noon tomorrow Central time and fill out the form at http://signup.wispa.org. John Scrivner President WISPA -- Just a silly question, but why is filling out this form such a big deal for everyone? It's only 10 questions basically asking you if you will be compliant or not by 5/14/07. Also it has to be signed by an officer of the company that is being reported for. How can WISPA file on behalf of these companies? -Eric -- WISPA Wireless List: wireless@wispa.org Subscribe/Unsubscribe: http://lists.wispa.org/mailman/listinfo/wireless Archives: http://lists.wispa.org/pipermail/wireless/
RE: [WISPA] Form 445
"Include me in WISPA 445 Filing" Zing LLC Thanks! -Original Message- From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] On Behalf Of John Scrivner Sent: Monday, February 12, 2007 2:44 PM To: [EMAIL PROTECTED]; wireless@wispa.org Subject: [WISPA] Form 445 If you are a paid WISPA Principal Member then you do not have to worry about filing your CALEA Form 445. Kris Twomey is handling it for all paid WISPA Principal Members who want it done for them. They are allowing later filing now. Kris will be filing on behalf of all paid WISPA Principal Members. All you have to do is reply to the email and say, "Include me in WISPA 445 Filing" and include your official, legal company name. That's it. Your filing will be complete.This is being done as a benefit of WISPA membership at NO CHARGE TO YOU. To take advantage of this offer you MUST respond within 24 hours, by no later than 3 pm Central time on Tuesday, Feb 13th. If you are not already a paid WISPA member then this is not available to you unless you get us $250 before noon tomorrow Central time and fill out the form at http://signup.wispa.org. John Scrivner President WISPA -- WISPA Wireless List: wireless@wispa.org Subscribe/Unsubscribe: http://lists.wispa.org/mailman/listinfo/wireless Archives: http://lists.wispa.org/pipermail/wireless/ -- WISPA Wireless List: wireless@wispa.org Subscribe/Unsubscribe: http://lists.wispa.org/mailman/listinfo/wireless Archives: http://lists.wispa.org/pipermail/wireless/
RE: [WISPA] Form 445
Boy...if that's not a valuable service justifying my dues. - Cliff -Original Message- From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] On Behalf Of John Scrivner Sent: Monday, February 12, 2007 2:44 PM To: [EMAIL PROTECTED]; wireless@wispa.org Subject: [WISPA] Form 445 If you are a paid WISPA Principal Member then you do not have to worry about filing your CALEA Form 445. Kris Twomey is handling it for all paid WISPA Principal Members who want it done for them. They are allowing later filing now. Kris will be filing on behalf of all paid WISPA Principal Members. All you have to do is reply to the email and say, "Include me in WISPA 445 Filing" and include your official, legal company name. That's it. Your filing will be complete.This is being done as a benefit of WISPA membership at NO CHARGE TO YOU. To take advantage of this offer you MUST respond within 24 hours, by no later than 3 pm Central time on Tuesday, Feb 13th. If you are not already a paid WISPA member then this is not available to you unless you get us $250 before noon tomorrow Central time and fill out the form at http://signup.wispa.org. John Scrivner President WISPA -- WISPA Wireless List: wireless@wispa.org Subscribe/Unsubscribe: http://lists.wispa.org/mailman/listinfo/wireless Archives: http://lists.wispa.org/pipermail/wireless/ BEGIN:VCARD VERSION:2.1 X-MS-SIGNATURE:YES N;LANGUAGE=en-us:LeBoeuf;Cliff FN:Cliff LeBoeuf ORG:Computer Sales & Services, Inc. TEL;WORK;VOICE:(985) 879-3219 ADR;WORK;PREF:;;1162 Barrow Street;Houma;LA;70360;United States of America LABEL;WORK;PREF;ENCODING=QUOTED-PRINTABLE:1162 Barrow Street=0D=0A= Houma, LA 70360 X-MS-OL-DEFAULT-POSTAL-ADDRESS:2 URL;WORK:www.cssla.com www.triparish.net EMAIL;PREF;INTERNET:[EMAIL PROTECTED] X-MS-TEXT;CUSTOM1:Computers - Copiers - Internet PHOTO;TYPE=JPEG;ENCODING=BASE64: /9j/4AAQSkZJRgABAQEAeAB4AAD/2wBDAAYEBQYFBAYGBQYHBwYIChAKCgkJChQODwwQFxQY GBcUFhYaHSUfGhsjHBYWICwgIyYnKSopGR8tMC0oMCUoKSj/2wBDAQcHBwoIChMKChMoGhYa KCgoKCgoKCgoKCgoKCgoKCgoKCgoKCgoKCgoKCgoKCgoKCgoKCgoKCgoKCgoKCgoKCj/wAAR CABQAEsDASIAAhEBAxEB/8QAHwAAAQUBAQEBAQEAAAECAwQFBgcICQoL/8QAtRAA AgEDAwIEAwUFBAQAAAF9AQIDAAQRBRIhMUEGE1FhByJxFDKBkaEII0KxwRVS0fAkM2JyggkK FhcYGRolJicoKSo0NTY3ODk6Q0RFRkdISUpTVFVWV1hZWmNkZWZnaGlqc3R1dnd4eXqDhIWG h4iJipKTlJWWl5iZmqKjpKWmp6ipqrKztLW2t7i5usLDxMXGx8jJytLT1NXW19jZ2uHi4+Tl 5ufo6erx8vP09fb3+Pn6/8QAHwEAAwEBAQEBAQEBAQECAwQFBgcICQoL/8QAtREA AgECBAQDBAcFBAQAAQJ3AAECAxEEBSExBhJBUQdhcRMiMoEIFEKRobHBCSMzUvAVYnLRChYk NOEl8RcYGRomJygpKjU2Nzg5OkNERUZHSElKU1RVVldYWVpjZGVmZ2hpanN0dXZ3eHl6goOE hYaHiImKkpOUlZaXmJmaoqOkpaanqKmqsrO0tba3uLm6wsPExcbHyMnK0tPU1dbX2Nna4uPk 5ebn6Onq8vP09fb3+Pn6/9oADAMBAAIRAxEAPwD0/U7ybXRqGt6xqFzZ6HaSy29vbW07RLME J+Z8dWOG74xjivKNS+JfhW0vJIU811U9ftRqT4x3MsHwd0xYm2iS8ugw9eDXzb4X0G/8Ta5b aVpMXm3U5wATgKByST2AFU207I56dOM4KUlds97u/jB4Wtxxa3szekUxP65xSwfFbTJ0WWDw v4hkgIz5i5I/Q17F8K/gdoPhGzhnvYVvNU2/PO4IOeenJA4OOPxzWnLolj4y8Sz2qhP+Ef0a cRNaiMgS3abSZC2QWC7ioU5XIJOSFwcz7l+xp/yr7jwu1+Kmn3kZls/CviKeFfvPHlgPyNJF 8X/C7KfNs7+B16xyyMGH5Zr6qkXRNFSKKdrS1EhCr5rBdx/GvL/iN4A8OeP/AB9Y6Y1vCJdK j8++Kq4ZxKD5abgwGPkLHqfu9MnJzPuHsaf8q+48ks/ixpeoFhpnhnX7wL94wktj8iaWP4ue G/NaG507UrOZeClxIVIPvzX1NbaXoXhvT1Hl21pboMb5DgAfjWH8Qvh14e+IHh17W8gj3uhk tbqInMblTtcYIyOc46GjmfcPY0/5V9x5v8M9W8P+PZLu00DVNY0nXrRBIypdttdT/EvOGHqC MjIrvtM+IsNnaC28SYj1eB3iuBCnyZViARk9wAfxr5i+BWg33hH9o220W9OJrdrmEsOkihXA YdeDtzXo/wAQmI8a6wAf+XhqunHn0ZyYuqsKlOK30MX41/8AJH9I/wCv27/9BNbX7GvhJIdD vvEdwgaS6kCQkg8KhZT+uaxfjX/yR/SP+v27/wDQTXqH7JskT/BnS1jZS6Szq4HUHznIB/Ai s5bs66H8OPog/aA+J1v4Q0a4sLWV/wC0nQDauOCcYB5z05P1HrTP2UNVXVvhcZXk8y6S+nFw TgHezbz+e8H8a8B/a2a5T4pX0c8cyQyLDJCWUhZF8pASD3wwIrnvgX8S734e+ICyzGTS7khL m0kY+WQSuXUAgCQAYyc8HGPRGp6j+03ovxBHie4uLGO51Dw5cOkkMdrCZDGwXBVwBnqCc8jk d66j9kXxFea7/wAJSNZleXVIpLfe0gAbYI/LQYAHQR4/U8mvV/CfxH8LeLkiitb2KO4lOEtb sqryH/Z5Ib8CayPHnhiHw5K/jbwxCLTVNPR3uYIV2xXsRADecq4L7Fyy88EUAcP+1BpfjyYw XfhMzXGkPb+VdW8CB5FIJOcY5BB7c8V4bYfF7xH4a8Lx+HGS8geDcPLuBt2E5yMEZxnsfevr Pwt8XPCniFTFLeR2E4wpS7ZVRieOGzj88GqPxn+E+jeOfDd48FnDBrkUTSWtzEqozOqsVRm2 klCTyPx60AfMf7POr3mufHvSL7UZfNndJhnAGB5TccV6J8TJHXx7rYDsB9oPAPsK8x/Znt5r T446RBcxtFNGJ1dGGCpEbAivTPib/wAj9rf/AF8H+QrWjuedmKvBFf41/wDJH9I/6/bv/wBB NZn7Hfju30jXr3wtqUzJHqjLJZlj8iyqG3L7FhjHuuOpFdD8YNG1HUfgdaXmmW7XC2V9O1yi 4ykRD7n69iBwM9c9q+VIJTE+cZHcetZy3Z2UP4cfRH6AfHX4VW3xK0WARzC11azJNtPs3DDE blYZGQQPwP5H5A0b4ReJNW8TXGk2ccU0VtcNbzXkTBo1KnDY6biPb869i+Gn7Sy2djHZ+Mt9 0VYKt0ARIq/7QC4b68H1z1rqdK+MvgTw3qV1c6VrS3Gl6jObmW0eGUTW0sjFpHViCCCTnZwA ckHnFI1PDrX4NePbPxjb2HkTxQwXIeO9WdcAK3EigMSD7dq+wvF3iSOPTNQ0nTbb+1da8kRv aK+xE3jH7yQgheDnHLEdBWXb/G34dT232hPE1sFxkhopFYe2CteUap8efCejeObjV9AU3cN8 VF+pEgMhVAiOpIwpAGMKDkDnsQAeS+Jvgt4803WPsUdtLe2kxXbciVEVsgZyu/Ix098V9s+C ra40jwTpFrqkpee0so45pXOSdiAFj+Wa5PTfjj8O9QtlmXxFDCe8c8Uisv1+XH5E1wHxT/aE 8OHR7yw8NXhu53VoyyIwDggjAJXGPfNAHnfw0MDftTo9qAsckt1JgDGNyyH+RFdH8Tf+R+1v /r4P8hXLfsv6Fqmt/FJfFM8TpZxmYmQ/xuykYHfADda6n4m/8j9rf/Xwf5CtaW55+YfAj2zw Bc2Vn8P
RE: [WISPA] Form 445
Just paid up... include RTPS Networks, Inc. d/b/a Near You Networks THANKS! AWESOME IDEA! R -Original Message- From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] On Behalf Of John Scrivner Sent: Monday, February 12, 2007 4:25 PM To: WISPA General List Subject: Re: [WISPA] Form 445 Kris Twomey says he can handle our filing on behalf of all WISPA members and that he can do it with just a company name for now. He will file for all of WISPA operators who wish and include company names of those who want to be included. No names will be included who have already filed themselves or do not wish to file for whatever reason. Obviously a Canadian company would not need to file a US mandated issue like this. Are you wanting to be included? Scriv cw wrote: > This is wonderful but you would need our FRN. Are you saying we don't > have to have this postmarked today? > > John Scrivner wrote: > >> If you are a paid WISPA Principal Member then you do not have to >> worry about filing your CALEA Form 445. Kris Twomey is handling it >> for all paid WISPA Principal Members who want it done for them. They >> are allowing later filing now. Kris will be filing on behalf of all >> paid WISPA Principal Members. All you have to do is reply to the >> email and say, "Include me in WISPA 445 Filing" and include your >> official, legal company name. That's it. Your filing will be >> complete.This is being done as a benefit of WISPA membership at NO >> CHARGE TO YOU. To take advantage of this offer you MUST respond >> within 24 hours, by no later than 3 pm Central time on Tuesday, Feb >> 13th. If you are not already a paid WISPA member then this is not >> available to you unless you get us $250 before noon tomorrow Central >> time and fill out the form at http://signup.wispa.org. >> John Scrivner >> President >> WISPA > -- WISPA Wireless List: wireless@wispa.org Subscribe/Unsubscribe: http://lists.wispa.org/mailman/listinfo/wireless Archives: http://lists.wispa.org/pipermail/wireless/ -- WISPA Wireless List: wireless@wispa.org Subscribe/Unsubscribe: http://lists.wispa.org/mailman/listinfo/wireless Archives: http://lists.wispa.org/pipermail/wireless/
RE: [WISPA] Form 445
Ok I paid up Please include us in CALEA filing Intelliwave, LLC Thanks Chris Cooper Intelliwave, LLC 740.592.0322 -- WISPA Wireless List: wireless@wispa.org Subscribe/Unsubscribe: http://lists.wispa.org/mailman/listinfo/wireless Archives: http://lists.wispa.org/pipermail/wireless/
RE: [WISPA] Form 445
Include NetsurfUSA, Inc. in the WISPA 445 filing for CALEA. Don Renner NetsurfUSA, Inc. 812-936-4514 [EMAIL PROTECTED] -Original Message- From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] On Behalf Of John Scrivner Sent: Monday, February 12, 2007 2:44 PM To: [EMAIL PROTECTED]; wireless@wispa.org Subject: [WISPA] Form 445 If you are a paid WISPA Principal Member then you do not have to worry about filing your CALEA Form 445. Kris Twomey is handling it for all paid WISPA Principal Members who want it done for them. They are allowing later filing now. Kris will be filing on behalf of all paid WISPA Principal Members. All you have to do is reply to the email and say, "Include me in WISPA 445 Filing" and include your official, legal company name. That's it. Your filing will be complete.This is being done as a benefit of WISPA membership at NO CHARGE TO YOU. To take advantage of this offer you MUST respond within 24 hours, by no later than 3 pm Central time on Tuesday, Feb 13th. If you are not already a paid WISPA member then this is not available to you unless you get us $250 before noon tomorrow Central time and fill out the form at http://signup.wispa.org. John Scrivner President WISPA -- WISPA Wireless List: wireless@wispa.org Subscribe/Unsubscribe: http://lists.wispa.org/mailman/listinfo/wireless Archives: http://lists.wispa.org/pipermail/wireless/ smime.p7s Description: S/MIME cryptographic signature -- WISPA Wireless List: wireless@wispa.org Subscribe/Unsubscribe: http://lists.wispa.org/mailman/listinfo/wireless Archives: http://lists.wispa.org/pipermail/wireless/
Re: [WISPA] Form 445
No problem. Kris says there is no penalty for this. Scriv cw wrote: No, thank you. I've already wasted most of the day completing the forms but our post office run for the day is already gone. So, I was wondering if our forms could be post marked Tuesday instead of Monday. - cw John Scrivner wrote: Kris Twomey says he can handle our filing on behalf of all WISPA members and that he can do it with just a company name for now. He will file for all of WISPA operators who wish and include company names of those who want to be included. No names will be included who have already filed themselves or do not wish to file for whatever reason. Obviously a Canadian company would not need to file a US mandated issue like this. Are you wanting to be included? Scriv cw wrote: This is wonderful but you would need our FRN. Are you saying we don't have to have this postmarked today? John Scrivner wrote: If you are a paid WISPA Principal Member then you do not have to worry about filing your CALEA Form 445. Kris Twomey is handling it for all paid WISPA Principal Members who want it done for them. They are allowing later filing now. Kris will be filing on behalf of all paid WISPA Principal Members. All you have to do is reply to the email and say, "Include me in WISPA 445 Filing" and include your official, legal company name. That's it. Your filing will be complete.This is being done as a benefit of WISPA membership at NO CHARGE TO YOU. To take advantage of this offer you MUST respond within 24 hours, by no later than 3 pm Central time on Tuesday, Feb 13th. If you are not already a paid WISPA member then this is not available to you unless you get us $250 before noon tomorrow Central time and fill out the form at http://signup.wispa.org. John Scrivner President WISPA -- WISPA Wireless List: wireless@wispa.org Subscribe/Unsubscribe: http://lists.wispa.org/mailman/listinfo/wireless Archives: http://lists.wispa.org/pipermail/wireless/
Re: [WISPA] Form 445
John please include us, COLI Inc. Bill Gaylord COLI Inc John Scrivner wrote: If you are a paid WISPA Principal Member then you do not have to worry about filing your CALEA Form 445. Kris Twomey is handling it for all paid WISPA Principal Members who want it done for them. They are allowing later filing now. Kris will be filing on behalf of all paid WISPA Principal Members. All you have to do is reply to the email and say, "Include me in WISPA 445 Filing" and include your official, legal company name. That's it. Your filing will be complete.This is being done as a benefit of WISPA membership at NO CHARGE TO YOU. To take advantage of this offer you MUST respond within 24 hours, by no later than 3 pm Central time on Tuesday, Feb 13th. If you are not already a paid WISPA member then this is not available to you unless you get us $250 before noon tomorrow Central time and fill out the form at http://signup.wispa.org. John Scrivner President WISPA -- WISPA Wireless List: wireless@wispa.org Subscribe/Unsubscribe: http://lists.wispa.org/mailman/listinfo/wireless Archives: http://lists.wispa.org/pipermail/wireless/
RE: [WISPA] Form 445
"Include me in WISPA 445 Filing" APGWireless, LLC -Original Message- From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] On Behalf Of John Scrivner Sent: Monday, February 12, 2007 2:44 PM To: [EMAIL PROTECTED]; wireless@wispa.org Subject: [WISPA] Form 445 If you are a paid WISPA Principal Member then you do not have to worry about filing your CALEA Form 445. Kris Twomey is handling it for all paid WISPA Principal Members who want it done for them. They are allowing later filing now. Kris will be filing on behalf of all paid WISPA Principal Members. All you have to do is reply to the email and say, "Include me in WISPA 445 Filing" and include your official, legal company name. That's it. Your filing will be complete.This is being done as a benefit of WISPA membership at NO CHARGE TO YOU. To take advantage of this offer you MUST respond within 24 hours, by no later than 3 pm Central time on Tuesday, Feb 13th. If you are not already a paid WISPA member then this is not available to you unless you get us $250 before noon tomorrow Central time and fill out the form at http://signup.wispa.org. John Scrivner President WISPA -- WISPA Wireless List: wireless@wispa.org Subscribe/Unsubscribe: http://lists.wispa.org/mailman/listinfo/wireless Archives: http://lists.wispa.org/pipermail/wireless/ -- WISPA Wireless List: wireless@wispa.org Subscribe/Unsubscribe: http://lists.wispa.org/mailman/listinfo/wireless Archives: http://lists.wispa.org/pipermail/wireless/
Re: [WISPA] Form 445
No, thank you. I've already wasted most of the day completing the forms but our post office run for the day is already gone. So, I was wondering if our forms could be post marked Tuesday instead of Monday. - cw John Scrivner wrote: Kris Twomey says he can handle our filing on behalf of all WISPA members and that he can do it with just a company name for now. He will file for all of WISPA operators who wish and include company names of those who want to be included. No names will be included who have already filed themselves or do not wish to file for whatever reason. Obviously a Canadian company would not need to file a US mandated issue like this. Are you wanting to be included? Scriv cw wrote: This is wonderful but you would need our FRN. Are you saying we don't have to have this postmarked today? John Scrivner wrote: If you are a paid WISPA Principal Member then you do not have to worry about filing your CALEA Form 445. Kris Twomey is handling it for all paid WISPA Principal Members who want it done for them. They are allowing later filing now. Kris will be filing on behalf of all paid WISPA Principal Members. All you have to do is reply to the email and say, "Include me in WISPA 445 Filing" and include your official, legal company name. That's it. Your filing will be complete.This is being done as a benefit of WISPA membership at NO CHARGE TO YOU. To take advantage of this offer you MUST respond within 24 hours, by no later than 3 pm Central time on Tuesday, Feb 13th. If you are not already a paid WISPA member then this is not available to you unless you get us $250 before noon tomorrow Central time and fill out the form at http://signup.wispa.org. John Scrivner President WISPA -- WISPA Wireless List: wireless@wispa.org Subscribe/Unsubscribe: http://lists.wispa.org/mailman/listinfo/wireless Archives: http://lists.wispa.org/pipermail/wireless/
Re: [WISPA] Form 445
Kris Twomey says he can handle our filing on behalf of all WISPA members and that he can do it with just a company name for now. He will file for all of WISPA operators who wish and include company names of those who want to be included. No names will be included who have already filed themselves or do not wish to file for whatever reason. Obviously a Canadian company would not need to file a US mandated issue like this. Sure would be funny if they did though. ;<) Matt -- WISPA Wireless List: wireless@wispa.org Subscribe/Unsubscribe: http://lists.wispa.org/mailman/listinfo/wireless Archives: http://lists.wispa.org/pipermail/wireless/
Re: [WISPA] Form 445
You would have to take it up with Kris. He knows this stuff better than me. That is why I pay him to handle my FCC legal work. I would have made the offer sooner had we been in touch sooner. Kris and I have been very out of touch with our schedules lately. I am moving my office and Kris has been criss-crossing the country a little lately I believe. Time is short and I am sorry about that. The filing can be a little late though. There is no penalty for this being sent in a day or two late. Kris will file this on Wednesday after he gets the list from me tomorrow of who all will be part of our group filing. Our filing will state we are all working toward an industry agreed compliance plan. It basically let's the government know we will meet compliance standards once set. Scriv Matt wrote: Wish you guys had made this offer sooner. We are Part-15.org and WISPA member and have already gone the Part-15 route. What is Kris putting in Form 445 though? Just wander how it differs from Part-15's? Matt If you are a paid WISPA Principal Member then you do not have to worry about filing your CALEA Form 445. Kris Twomey is handling it for all paid WISPA Principal Members who want it done for them. They are allowing later filing now. Kris will be filing on behalf of all paid WISPA Principal Members. All you have to do is reply to the email and say, "Include me in WISPA 445 Filing" and include your official, legal company name. That's it. Your filing will be complete.This is being done as a benefit of WISPA membership at NO CHARGE TO YOU. To take advantage of this offer you MUST respond within 24 hours, by no later than 3 pm Central time on Tuesday, Feb 13th. If you are not already a paid WISPA member then this is not available to you unless you get us $250 before noon tomorrow Central time and fill out the form at http://signup.wispa.org. John Scrivner President WISPA -- WISPA Wireless List: wireless@wispa.org Subscribe/Unsubscribe: http://lists.wispa.org/mailman/listinfo/wireless Archives: http://lists.wispa.org/pipermail/wireless/ -- WISPA Wireless List: wireless@wispa.org Subscribe/Unsubscribe: http://lists.wispa.org/mailman/listinfo/wireless Archives: http://lists.wispa.org/pipermail/wireless/
Re: [WISPA] Form 445
Kris Twomey says he can handle our filing on behalf of all WISPA members and that he can do it with just a company name for now. He will file for all of WISPA operators who wish and include company names of those who want to be included. No names will be included who have already filed themselves or do not wish to file for whatever reason. Obviously a Canadian company would not need to file a US mandated issue like this. Are you wanting to be included? Scriv cw wrote: This is wonderful but you would need our FRN. Are you saying we don't have to have this postmarked today? John Scrivner wrote: If you are a paid WISPA Principal Member then you do not have to worry about filing your CALEA Form 445. Kris Twomey is handling it for all paid WISPA Principal Members who want it done for them. They are allowing later filing now. Kris will be filing on behalf of all paid WISPA Principal Members. All you have to do is reply to the email and say, "Include me in WISPA 445 Filing" and include your official, legal company name. That's it. Your filing will be complete.This is being done as a benefit of WISPA membership at NO CHARGE TO YOU. To take advantage of this offer you MUST respond within 24 hours, by no later than 3 pm Central time on Tuesday, Feb 13th. If you are not already a paid WISPA member then this is not available to you unless you get us $250 before noon tomorrow Central time and fill out the form at http://signup.wispa.org. John Scrivner President WISPA -- WISPA Wireless List: wireless@wispa.org Subscribe/Unsubscribe: http://lists.wispa.org/mailman/listinfo/wireless Archives: http://lists.wispa.org/pipermail/wireless/
Re: [WISPA] Form 445
Wish you guys had made this offer sooner. We are Part-15.org and WISPA member and have already gone the Part-15 route. What is Kris putting in Form 445 though? Just wander how it differs from Part-15's? Matt If you are a paid WISPA Principal Member then you do not have to worry about filing your CALEA Form 445. Kris Twomey is handling it for all paid WISPA Principal Members who want it done for them. They are allowing later filing now. Kris will be filing on behalf of all paid WISPA Principal Members. All you have to do is reply to the email and say, "Include me in WISPA 445 Filing" and include your official, legal company name. That's it. Your filing will be complete.This is being done as a benefit of WISPA membership at NO CHARGE TO YOU. To take advantage of this offer you MUST respond within 24 hours, by no later than 3 pm Central time on Tuesday, Feb 13th. If you are not already a paid WISPA member then this is not available to you unless you get us $250 before noon tomorrow Central time and fill out the form at http://signup.wispa.org. John Scrivner President WISPA -- WISPA Wireless List: wireless@wispa.org Subscribe/Unsubscribe: http://lists.wispa.org/mailman/listinfo/wireless Archives: http://lists.wispa.org/pipermail/wireless/ -- WISPA Wireless List: wireless@wispa.org Subscribe/Unsubscribe: http://lists.wispa.org/mailman/listinfo/wireless Archives: http://lists.wispa.org/pipermail/wireless/
Re: [WISPA] Form 445
This is wonderful but you would need our FRN. Are you saying we don't have to have this postmarked today? John Scrivner wrote: If you are a paid WISPA Principal Member then you do not have to worry about filing your CALEA Form 445. Kris Twomey is handling it for all paid WISPA Principal Members who want it done for them. They are allowing later filing now. Kris will be filing on behalf of all paid WISPA Principal Members. All you have to do is reply to the email and say, "Include me in WISPA 445 Filing" and include your official, legal company name. That's it. Your filing will be complete.This is being done as a benefit of WISPA membership at NO CHARGE TO YOU. To take advantage of this offer you MUST respond within 24 hours, by no later than 3 pm Central time on Tuesday, Feb 13th. If you are not already a paid WISPA member then this is not available to you unless you get us $250 before noon tomorrow Central time and fill out the form at http://signup.wispa.org. John Scrivner President WISPA -- WISPA Wireless List: wireless@wispa.org Subscribe/Unsubscribe: http://lists.wispa.org/mailman/listinfo/wireless Archives: http://lists.wispa.org/pipermail/wireless/
Re: [WISPA] Form 445
Please include me in the WISPA 445 filing Rabbit Meadows Technology, LLC On 2/12/07, John Scrivner <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote: If you are a paid WISPA Principal Member then you do not have to worry about filing your CALEA Form 445. Kris Twomey is handling it for all paid WISPA Principal Members who want it done for them. They are allowing later filing now. Kris will be filing on behalf of all paid WISPA Principal Members. All you have to do is reply to the email and say, "Include me in WISPA 445 Filing" and include your official, legal company name. That's it. Your filing will be complete.This is being done as a benefit of WISPA membership at NO CHARGE TO YOU. To take advantage of this offer you MUST respond within 24 hours, by no later than 3 pm Central time on Tuesday, Feb 13th. If you are not already a paid WISPA member then this is not available to you unless you get us $250 before noon tomorrow Central time and fill out the form at http://signup.wispa.org. John Scrivner President WISPA -- WISPA Wireless List: wireless@wispa.org Subscribe/Unsubscribe: http://lists.wispa.org/mailman/listinfo/wireless Archives: http://lists.wispa.org/pipermail/wireless/ -- WISPA Wireless List: wireless@wispa.org Subscribe/Unsubscribe: http://lists.wispa.org/mailman/listinfo/wireless Archives: http://lists.wispa.org/pipermail/wireless/
Re: [WISPA] Form 445
"Include me in WISPA 445 Filing". UnwiredOnline.Net, LLC Mark Nash Network Engineer UnwiredOnline.Net 350 Holly Street Junction City, OR 97448 http://www.uwol.net 541-998- 541-998-5599 fax - Original Message - From: "John Scrivner" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> To: <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>; Sent: Monday, February 12, 2007 12:44 PM Subject: [WISPA] Form 445 > If you are a paid WISPA Principal Member then you do not have to worry > about filing your CALEA Form 445. Kris Twomey is handling it for all > paid WISPA Principal Members who want it done for them. They are > allowing later filing now. Kris will be filing on behalf of all paid > WISPA Principal Members. All you have to do is reply to the email and > say, "Include me in WISPA 445 Filing" and include your official, legal > company name. That's it. Your filing will be complete.This is being done > as a benefit of WISPA membership at NO CHARGE TO YOU. To take advantage > of this offer you MUST respond within 24 hours, by no later than 3 pm > Central time on Tuesday, Feb 13th. If you are not already a paid WISPA > member then this is not available to you unless you get us $250 before > noon tomorrow Central time and fill out the form at http://signup.wispa.org. > John Scrivner > President > WISPA > -- > WISPA Wireless List: wireless@wispa.org > > Subscribe/Unsubscribe: > http://lists.wispa.org/mailman/listinfo/wireless > > Archives: http://lists.wispa.org/pipermail/wireless/ > -- WISPA Wireless List: wireless@wispa.org Subscribe/Unsubscribe: http://lists.wispa.org/mailman/listinfo/wireless Archives: http://lists.wispa.org/pipermail/wireless/
[WISPA] Form 445
If you are a paid WISPA Principal Member then you do not have to worry about filing your CALEA Form 445. Kris Twomey is handling it for all paid WISPA Principal Members who want it done for them. They are allowing later filing now. Kris will be filing on behalf of all paid WISPA Principal Members. All you have to do is reply to the email and say, "Include me in WISPA 445 Filing" and include your official, legal company name. That's it. Your filing will be complete.This is being done as a benefit of WISPA membership at NO CHARGE TO YOU. To take advantage of this offer you MUST respond within 24 hours, by no later than 3 pm Central time on Tuesday, Feb 13th. If you are not already a paid WISPA member then this is not available to you unless you get us $250 before noon tomorrow Central time and fill out the form at http://signup.wispa.org. John Scrivner President WISPA -- WISPA Wireless List: wireless@wispa.org Subscribe/Unsubscribe: http://lists.wispa.org/mailman/listinfo/wireless Archives: http://lists.wispa.org/pipermail/wireless/
