Re: [WISPA] Wimax gear
Charles, Excellent comment. I'd argue though that its not a matter of customer count, but more about a revenue threshold to justify staying in business. I believe the first threshold is about $15k monthly. Unlessthat threashold is met, its not cost effective to stay in business, but if it is met, usually the owner can get an ROI over time if they let it sit, and stay a one man show. Who knows if they'll ever get a full return on their investment, but money is sunk, and justified to let it continue because ongoing revenue pays as much as a day job, so let it ride on. But your point was well heard, how do you get to the next level?. The next level might be around the $40k monthly range. Now one can add a couple employees, and have decent capacity and coverage, core costs covered, be competitive and be cash flow possitive doing it. Life is easier, profit is better, sustainabilty likely achieved. Now theirs a chance the owner can get a decent ROI over time, and clearly pays better than the day job. But your point was well heard, and again ask, how do you get to the next level?. The think is, if the owner stays as is focuses on new customers (rev) and not buildout (new costs), its easilly sailing. In past years, maybe 10 new business subs were needed to break even on a tower cost. A lot of work little reward. But now, 1 new business subs means it can cover a new car payment of luxury. But 1 more new business sub just bought you a beautiful new Flat screen TV. But 1 new business sub now makes a sizable monthly payment towards paying off finance debt. The owner sees the light, why change the new found pattern? Why grow? Or more importantly, Why spend? Even with the Free Grant money, is it worth it? The requirement is that the recipient CAN NOT use the revenue/profit to pay themselves. All funds have to be spent on supporting the capitol infrastructure for the next 3 years. Why would a WISP want to divert all their free time the next 3 years working for free AGAIN, instead of working on the easy sales on their pre-existing network that instantly translates to PROFIT and ROI today? Its costly to grow, whether its with your own money, or subsidized money. And its surely tough to decide to start all over again, going back into investment mode instead of payback mode. One of my favorite stories is of an experience I had back in 1997, waiting to pickup an order from a Computer Distributer. I ran into an old rival buddy of mine, we both just started our own businesses a year or two before. I was like How ya doing, we got like 4 CNEs now, He was like, yeah, well we got 5 techs now He was like Well we broke 1 mil this year. I was like Well, we broke 2 mil last year. Then an old guy waiting at the counter stepped over, joined in and said, Well, I've been in business for 15 years now, I have 1 employee he's been with me for 10, all I ever needed. I have a beautiful home, a great wife, time for my kids, you can see my nice car out front, my customers love me, I treat them fairly and my quality is top notch, I got plenty of work, probably half-mil yearly, and get to choose which work I accept, but most of all I have peice of mind, and I sleep really well at night. So who's the winner? We thanked our new friend for his insight. My friend and I looked at our watches, and he just realizes he's late for his meeting with his divorse attorney, and I just realize I'm about to miss another kids soccer game, and off we went in our clunkers. I learned something that day, and made a change. Now 13 years later, I look into the mirror, and I see a resemblance of that guy, and I'm fine with that. I'm not saying, dont spend, dont invest, dont evolve, I'm just saying, bigger isn't always better. When it comes to WiMax, I ask the same question as Non-WiMax. How is this choice going to make me more money today, with less effort? If the Plan shows it can, all is good. Tom DeReggi RapidDSL Wireless, Inc IntAirNet- Fixed Wireless Broadband - Original Message - From: Charles Wu c...@cticonnect.com To: WISPA General List wireless@wispa.org Sent: Tuesday, January 05, 2010 4:36 PM Subject: Re: [WISPA] Wimax gear Once you get to say 1000+ customers, things like having the staff for service calls and time to repair for customers are often more important than the brand of radio or the original cost of the radio. We do spend more on payroll than radios, despite deploying lots of expensive gear. Keeping CPE prices down is appreciated and important, but less tangible ongoing management, troubleshooting, and repair costs must also be considered. The reduction in support costs isn't an expection, it's a reality and requirement in many situations. When you're working as a startup, labor costs are essentially zero (and if you're asian like myself, you can call on your kids/relatives/grandparents to work nights and weekends -- the classic Chinese restaurant business
Re: [WISPA] Wimax gear
I don't think so :) And the only one on this list out of the States? Is that right? -- Ing. Paolo Di Francesco Teleinform S.p.A. Sede Legale: Via Francesco Paolo Di Blasi 1, 90144 Palermo Unita' Operativa: Via Regione Siciliana 49, 90046 Monreale (Palermo) Tel: +39-091-6408576, +39-091-6404501 Fax: +39-091-6406200 http://www.wikitel.it http://www.teleinform.com WISPA Wants You! Join today! http://signup.wispa.org/ WISPA Wireless List: wireless@wispa.org Subscribe/Unsubscribe: http://lists.wispa.org/mailman/listinfo/wireless Archives: http://lists.wispa.org/pipermail/wireless/
Re: [WISPA] Wimax gear
On Mon, Jan 04, 2010 at 05:28:49PM -0600, Wallace Walcher wrote: Having built my WISP from scratch with my own resources and currently being debt free in my operations, I often wonder who the people are who so quickly classify Mikrotik and Ubiquity gear as trash. I am making a very good living deploying such trash. I'm not ashamed of calling their bluff when they say something is carrier class, and it's not even released yet and then has firmware their either sets the timing wrong to the point of destroying the link or doesn't do vlans, and the firmware isn't pulled offline because it's the best stuff available. I've got a couple UBNT M links up and like them, and believe it has a future. I just can't put my whole business on the line while they refine a product. It is wise and irrestible to try the stuff though. I've got a downtown network of UBNT 802.11 gear, and the nanos and bullets just can't handle the interference as I'd like. It was intended to be an upgrade from the breezecom FH gear which was slow but reliable. The UBNT is faster, but less reliable in the presence of local interference. Now, if someone has an interference problem, we immediately swap them over to Alvarion 5.4 gear. It is more expensive, but we know we'll never have a service call after it's put in unless it gets hit by lightning or the customer wants to upgrade. We would have been wise to upgrade straight from the old stuff to 5.4. I'd still recommend the UBNT CPE for truly rural use. Then MT is always making something wonky. A couple years ago, you could crash the MT with a SNMP query. Now, if you put an N card in and upgrade the firmware in your 433ah to 4.4, you might lose the ethernet ports. I stay 1-4 months behind on their firmware because it's a mystery what you might get. Changelogs show less than half of what they change. I do like them for basic routing and also use their gear for a few links. I think it's a step up from UBNT for ptp 802.11 based links. I also like MT because it's pretty low power use, which has practical value for solar sites or sites needing long battery backup. We don't have the time to tinker to use it for everything. We tried 900 with SR9 then XR9 and the reliability wasn't there compared to what we were accustomed to with Trango and Alvarion. Once you get to say 1000+ customers, things like having the staff for service calls and time to repair for customers are often more important than the brand of radio or the original cost of the radio. We do spend more on payroll than radios, despite deploying lots of expensive gear. Keeping CPE prices down is appreciated and important, but less tangible ongoing management, troubleshooting, and repair costs must also be considered. The reduction in support costs isn't an expection, it's a reality and requirement in many situations. A minor glitch that affects a few customers outside of town is not a big deal, but if the glitch requires half a day on the road or requires aircraft, boats, snowcats, or sleds, it could cost hundreds of dollars and mess up a lot of customers. I'd fear for my welfare if everything was built on UBNT and MT though. We use Alvarion 900, 2.4 (not going forward), 5.4, 5.8, Trango (lots of 900 installed, but not going forward), MT, UBNT, and now Solectek and Radwin. My WISP is pretty low debt 100% privately owned and financed, and we often choose higher end equipment. You do get what you pay for, but of course there are diminshing returns the higher end you go. My perception is they are either people who are not spending their own money - they are working for the investor, or possibly borrowing or leasing the equipment, or they are a vendor promoting their own high margin goods. Those that are WISPs seem to have the perception that it is better to install higher cost equipment, no matter what the cost, if it will provide them an expected reduction in support costs. What I have found in my area is that people who deploy such equipment have a very hard go of it, mainly because the replacement costs during the storm season eat their lunch. My operational plan is different than some - I focus on residential customers on the outskirts of town that do not have access to Cable and DSL. Those focusing on business accounts in cities would understandably have a different perspective. But I feel very fortunate to have a sub $200 total CPE cost (sometimes sub $100) with the Mikrotik-type solution. WISPA Wants You! Join today! http://signup.wispa.org/ WISPA Wireless List: wireless@wispa.org Subscribe/Unsubscribe: http://lists.wispa.org/mailman/listinfo/wireless Archives: http://lists.wispa.org/pipermail/wireless/ -- /* Jason Philbrook | Midcoast Internet Solutions - Wireless and DSL
Re: [WISPA] Wimax gear
Once you get to say 1000+ customers, things like having the staff for service calls and time to repair for customers are often more important than the brand of radio or the original cost of the radio. We do spend more on payroll than radios, despite deploying lots of expensive gear. Keeping CPE prices down is appreciated and important, but less tangible ongoing management, troubleshooting, and repair costs must also be considered. The reduction in support costs isn't an expection, it's a reality and requirement in many situations. When you're working as a startup, labor costs are essentially zero (and if you're asian like myself, you can call on your kids/relatives/grandparents to work nights and weekends -- the classic Chinese restaurant business model =) However, when working with employees (and I don't care how smart / hard-working / strong willed you are, there's still only 24 hours in a day) -- labor costs become a bigger factor as the organization scales So this brings up a more interesting debate -- e.g., one-man band / mom-and-pop vs. organizational strategy As an organization, trying to run a WISP with 700 residential customers is a complete waste of time, however, as a one-man-band -- an 700 customer WISP can be highly profitable The problem here is that there's a nasty chasm between what the one-man band can handle and what an organization needs to support itself (e.g., it doesn't scale linearly) The picture looks more like this 700 customers -- one-man band (or equivalent) -- highly profitable Then -- they start hiring employees to grow and scale the business Unfortunately, there's a minimum amount of overhead required, and what was once a profitable business is now bleeding red ink and needs to reach 2,000 customers before things get good again Which creates an interesting question -- if you're such a WISP, do you just stop and sit tight at 700 customers? Or do you go-for-broke by trying to grow? -Charles -Original Message- From: wireless-boun...@wispa.org [mailto:wireless-boun...@wispa.org] On Behalf Of jp Sent: Tuesday, January 05, 2010 10:36 AM To: WISPA General List Subject: Re: [WISPA] Wimax gear On Mon, Jan 04, 2010 at 05:28:49PM -0600, Wallace Walcher wrote: Having built my WISP from scratch with my own resources and currently being debt free in my operations, I often wonder who the people are who so quickly classify Mikrotik and Ubiquity gear as trash. I am making a very good living deploying such trash. I'm not ashamed of calling their bluff when they say something is carrier class, and it's not even released yet and then has firmware their either sets the timing wrong to the point of destroying the link or doesn't do vlans, and the firmware isn't pulled offline because it's the best stuff available. I've got a couple UBNT M links up and like them, and believe it has a future. I just can't put my whole business on the line while they refine a product. It is wise and irrestible to try the stuff though. I've got a downtown network of UBNT 802.11 gear, and the nanos and bullets just can't handle the interference as I'd like. It was intended to be an upgrade from the breezecom FH gear which was slow but reliable. The UBNT is faster, but less reliable in the presence of local interference. Now, if someone has an interference problem, we immediately swap them over to Alvarion 5.4 gear. It is more expensive, but we know we'll never have a service call after it's put in unless it gets hit by lightning or the customer wants to upgrade. We would have been wise to upgrade straight from the old stuff to 5.4. I'd still recommend the UBNT CPE for truly rural use. Then MT is always making something wonky. A couple years ago, you could crash the MT with a SNMP query. Now, if you put an N card in and upgrade the firmware in your 433ah to 4.4, you might lose the ethernet ports. I stay 1-4 months behind on their firmware because it's a mystery what you might get. Changelogs show less than half of what they change. I do like them for basic routing and also use their gear for a few links. I think it's a step up from UBNT for ptp 802.11 based links. I also like MT because it's pretty low power use, which has practical value for solar sites or sites needing long battery backup. We don't have the time to tinker to use it for everything. We tried 900 with SR9 then XR9 and the reliability wasn't there compared to what we were accustomed to with Trango and Alvarion. Once you get to say 1000+ customers, things like having the staff for service calls and time to repair for customers are often more important than the brand of radio or the original cost of the radio. We do spend more on payroll than radios, despite deploying lots of expensive gear. Keeping CPE prices down is appreciated and important, but less tangible ongoing management, troubleshooting, and repair costs must also be considered. The reduction in support costs
Re: [WISPA] Wimax gear
Our company has almost 800 customers at the moment and 4 employees and is profitable! Charles Wu wrote: Once you get to say 1000+ customers, things like having the staff for service calls and time to repair for customers are often more important than the brand of radio or the original cost of the radio. We do spend more on payroll than radios, despite deploying lots of expensive gear. Keeping CPE prices down is appreciated and important, but less tangible ongoing management, troubleshooting, and repair costs must also be considered. The reduction in support costs isn't an expection, it's a reality and requirement in many situations. When you're working as a startup, labor costs are essentially zero (and if you're asian like myself, you can call on your kids/relatives/grandparents to work nights and weekends -- the classic Chinese restaurant business model =) However, when working with employees (and I don't care how smart / hard-working / strong willed you are, there's still only 24 hours in a day) -- labor costs become a bigger factor as the organization scales So this brings up a more interesting debate -- e.g., one-man band / mom-and-pop vs. organizational strategy As an organization, trying to run a WISP with 700 residential customers is a complete waste of time, however, as a one-man-band -- an 700 customer WISP can be highly profitable The problem here is that there's a nasty chasm between what the one-man band can handle and what an organization needs to support itself (e.g., it doesn't scale linearly) The picture looks more like this 700 customers -- one-man band (or equivalent) -- highly profitable Then -- they start hiring employees to grow and scale the business Unfortunately, there's a minimum amount of overhead required, and what was once a profitable business is now bleeding red ink and needs to reach 2,000 customers before things get good again Which creates an interesting question -- if you're such a WISP, do you just stop and sit tight at 700 customers? Or do you go-for-broke by trying to grow? -Charles -Original Message- From: wireless-boun...@wispa.org [mailto:wireless-boun...@wispa.org] On Behalf Of jp Sent: Tuesday, January 05, 2010 10:36 AM To: WISPA General List Subject: Re: [WISPA] Wimax gear On Mon, Jan 04, 2010 at 05:28:49PM -0600, Wallace Walcher wrote: Having built my WISP from scratch with my own resources and currently being debt free in my operations, I often wonder who the people are who so quickly classify Mikrotik and Ubiquity gear as trash. I am making a very good living deploying such trash. I'm not ashamed of calling their bluff when they say something is carrier class, and it's not even released yet and then has firmware their either sets the timing wrong to the point of destroying the link or doesn't do vlans, and the firmware isn't pulled offline because it's the best stuff available. I've got a couple UBNT M links up and like them, and believe it has a future. I just can't put my whole business on the line while they refine a product. It is wise and irrestible to try the stuff though. I've got a downtown network of UBNT 802.11 gear, and the nanos and bullets just can't handle the interference as I'd like. It was intended to be an upgrade from the breezecom FH gear which was slow but reliable. The UBNT is faster, but less reliable in the presence of local interference. Now, if someone has an interference problem, we immediately swap them over to Alvarion 5.4 gear. It is more expensive, but we know we'll never have a service call after it's put in unless it gets hit by lightning or the customer wants to upgrade. We would have been wise to upgrade straight from the old stuff to 5.4. I'd still recommend the UBNT CPE for truly rural use. Then MT is always making something wonky. A couple years ago, you could crash the MT with a SNMP query. Now, if you put an N card in and upgrade the firmware in your 433ah to 4.4, you might lose the ethernet ports. I stay 1-4 months behind on their firmware because it's a mystery what you might get. Changelogs show less than half of what they change. I do like them for basic routing and also use their gear for a few links. I think it's a step up from UBNT for ptp 802.11 based links. I also like MT because it's pretty low power use, which has practical value for solar sites or sites needing long battery backup. We don't have the time to tinker to use it for everything. We tried 900 with SR9 then XR9 and the reliability wasn't there compared to what we were accustomed to with Trango and Alvarion. Once you get to say 1000+ customers, things like having the staff for service calls and time to repair for customers are often more important than the brand of radio or the original cost of the radio. We do spend more on payroll than radios, despite deploying lots
Re: [WISPA] Wimax gear
200 subs, 2 owners, 3 employees and profitable... Super amazing fortunate we are. Josh Luthman Office: 937-552-2340 Direct: 937-552-2343 1100 Wayne St Suite 1337 Troy, OH 45373 The secret to creativity is knowing how to hide your sources. --- Albert Einstein On Tue, Jan 5, 2010 at 7:06 PM, Matt Jenkins m...@smarterbroadband.netwrote: Our company has almost 800 customers at the moment and 4 employees and is profitable! Charles Wu wrote: Once you get to say 1000+ customers, things like having the staff for service calls and time to repair for customers are often more important than the brand of radio or the original cost of the radio. We do spend more on payroll than radios, despite deploying lots of expensive gear. Keeping CPE prices down is appreciated and important, but less tangible ongoing management, troubleshooting, and repair costs must also be considered. The reduction in support costs isn't an expection, it's a reality and requirement in many situations. When you're working as a startup, labor costs are essentially zero (and if you're asian like myself, you can call on your kids/relatives/grandparents to work nights and weekends -- the classic Chinese restaurant business model =) However, when working with employees (and I don't care how smart / hard-working / strong willed you are, there's still only 24 hours in a day) -- labor costs become a bigger factor as the organization scales So this brings up a more interesting debate -- e.g., one-man band / mom-and-pop vs. organizational strategy As an organization, trying to run a WISP with 700 residential customers is a complete waste of time, however, as a one-man-band -- an 700 customer WISP can be highly profitable The problem here is that there's a nasty chasm between what the one-man band can handle and what an organization needs to support itself (e.g., it doesn't scale linearly) The picture looks more like this 700 customers -- one-man band (or equivalent) -- highly profitable Then -- they start hiring employees to grow and scale the business Unfortunately, there's a minimum amount of overhead required, and what was once a profitable business is now bleeding red ink and needs to reach 2,000 customers before things get good again Which creates an interesting question -- if you're such a WISP, do you just stop and sit tight at 700 customers? Or do you go-for-broke by trying to grow? -Charles -Original Message- From: wireless-boun...@wispa.org [mailto:wireless-boun...@wispa.org] On Behalf Of jp Sent: Tuesday, January 05, 2010 10:36 AM To: WISPA General List Subject: Re: [WISPA] Wimax gear On Mon, Jan 04, 2010 at 05:28:49PM -0600, Wallace Walcher wrote: Having built my WISP from scratch with my own resources and currently being debt free in my operations, I often wonder who the people are who so quickly classify Mikrotik and Ubiquity gear as trash. I am making a very good living deploying such trash. I'm not ashamed of calling their bluff when they say something is carrier class, and it's not even released yet and then has firmware their either sets the timing wrong to the point of destroying the link or doesn't do vlans, and the firmware isn't pulled offline because it's the best stuff available. I've got a couple UBNT M links up and like them, and believe it has a future. I just can't put my whole business on the line while they refine a product. It is wise and irrestible to try the stuff though. I've got a downtown network of UBNT 802.11 gear, and the nanos and bullets just can't handle the interference as I'd like. It was intended to be an upgrade from the breezecom FH gear which was slow but reliable. The UBNT is faster, but less reliable in the presence of local interference. Now, if someone has an interference problem, we immediately swap them over to Alvarion 5.4 gear. It is more expensive, but we know we'll never have a service call after it's put in unless it gets hit by lightning or the customer wants to upgrade. We would have been wise to upgrade straight from the old stuff to 5.4. I'd still recommend the UBNT CPE for truly rural use. Then MT is always making something wonky. A couple years ago, you could crash the MT with a SNMP query. Now, if you put an N card in and upgrade the firmware in your 433ah to 4.4, you might lose the ethernet ports. I stay 1-4 months behind on their firmware because it's a mystery what you might get. Changelogs show less than half of what they change. I do like them for basic routing and also use their gear for a few links. I think it's a step up from UBNT for ptp 802.11 based links. I also like MT because it's pretty low power use, which has practical value for solar sites or sites needing long battery backup. We don't have the time to tinker to use it for everything. We tried 900 with SR9 then XR9 and the reliability
Re: [WISPA] Wimax gear
1800 subs, 18 employes and profitable Sent from my Motorola Startac... On Jan 5, 2010, at 7:15 PM, Josh Luthman j...@imaginenetworksllc.com wrote: 200 subs, 2 owners, 3 employees and profitable... Super amazing fortunate we are. Josh Luthman Office: 937-552-2340 Direct: 937-552-2343 1100 Wayne St Suite 1337 Troy, OH 45373 The secret to creativity is knowing how to hide your sources. --- Albert Einstein On Tue, Jan 5, 2010 at 7:06 PM, Matt Jenkins m...@smarterbroadband.net wrote: Our company has almost 800 customers at the moment and 4 employees and is profitable! Charles Wu wrote: Once you get to say 1000+ customers, things like having the staff for service calls and time to repair for customers are often more important than the brand of radio or the original cost of the radio. We do spend more on payroll than radios, despite deploying lots of expensive gear. Keeping CPE prices down is appreciated and important, but less tangible ongoing management, troubleshooting, and repair costs must also be considered. The reduction in support costs isn't an expection, it's a reality and requirement in many situations. When you're working as a startup, labor costs are essentially zero (and if you're asian like myself, you can call on your kids/relatives/grandparents to work nights and weekends -- the classic Chinese restaurant business model =) However, when working with employees (and I don't care how smart / hard-working / strong willed you are, there's still only 24 hours in a day) -- labor costs become a bigger factor as the organization scales So this brings up a more interesting debate -- e.g., one-man band / mom-and-pop vs. organizational strategy As an organization, trying to run a WISP with 700 residential customers is a complete waste of time, however, as a one-man-band -- an 700 customer WISP can be highly profitable The problem here is that there's a nasty chasm between what the one-man band can handle and what an organization needs to support itself (e.g., it doesn't scale linearly) The picture looks more like this 700 customers -- one-man band (or equivalent) -- highly profitable Then -- they start hiring employees to grow and scale the business Unfortunately, there's a minimum amount of overhead required, and what was once a profitable business is now bleeding red ink and needs to reach 2,000 customers before things get good again Which creates an interesting question -- if you're such a WISP, do you just stop and sit tight at 700 customers? Or do you go-for-broke by trying to grow? -Charles -Original Message- From: wireless-boun...@wispa.org [mailto:wireless- boun...@wispa.org] On Behalf Of jp Sent: Tuesday, January 05, 2010 10:36 AM To: WISPA General List Subject: Re: [WISPA] Wimax gear On Mon, Jan 04, 2010 at 05:28:49PM -0600, Wallace Walcher wrote: Having built my WISP from scratch with my own resources and currently being debt free in my operations, I often wonder who the people are who so quickly classify Mikrotik and Ubiquity gear as trash. I am making a very good living deploying such trash. I'm not ashamed of calling their bluff when they say something is carrier class, and it's not even released yet and then has firmware their either sets the timing wrong to the point of destroying the link or doesn't do vlans, and the firmware isn't pulled offline because it's the best stuff available. I've got a couple UBNT M links up and like them, and believe it has a future. I just can't put my whole business on the line while they refine a product. It is wise and irrestible to try the stuff though. I've got a downtown network of UBNT 802.11 gear, and the nanos and bullets just can't handle the interference as I'd like. It was intended to be an upgrade from the breezecom FH gear which was slow but reliable. The UBNT is faster, but less reliable in the presence of local interference. Now, if someone has an interference problem, we immediately swap them over to Alvarion 5.4 gear. It is more expensive, but we know we'll never have a service call after it's put in unless it gets hit by lightning or the customer wants to upgrade. We would have been wise to upgrade straight from the old stuff to 5.4. I'd still recommend the UBNT CPE for truly rural use. Then MT is always making something wonky. A couple years ago, you could crash the MT with a SNMP query. Now, if you put an N card in and upgrade the firmware in your 433ah to 4.4, you might lose the ethernet ports. I stay 1-4 months behind on their firmware because it's a mystery what you might get. Changelogs show less than half of what they change. I do like them for basic routing and also use their gear for a few links. I think it's a step up from UBNT for ptp 802.11 based links. I also like MT because it's pretty low
Re: [WISPA] Wimax gear
Having built my WISP from scratch with my own resources and currently being debt free in my operations, I often wonder who the people are who so quickly classify Mikrotik and Ubiquity gear as trash. I am making a very good living deploying such trash. My perception is they are either people who are not spending their own money - they are working for the investor, or possibly borrowing or leasing the equipment, or they are a vendor promoting their own high margin goods. Those that are WISPs seem to have the perception that it is better to install higher cost equipment, no matter what the cost, if it will provide them an expected reduction in support costs. What I have found in my area is that people who deploy such equipment have a very hard go of it, mainly because the replacement costs during the storm season eat their lunch. My operational plan is different than some - I focus on residential customers on the outskirts of town that do not have access to Cable and DSL. Those focusing on business accounts in cities would understandably have a different perspective. But I feel very fortunate to have a sub $200 total CPE cost (sometimes sub $100) with the Mikrotik-type solution. WISPA Wants You! Join today! http://signup.wispa.org/ WISPA Wireless List: wireless@wispa.org Subscribe/Unsubscribe: http://lists.wispa.org/mailman/listinfo/wireless Archives: http://lists.wispa.org/pipermail/wireless/
Re: [WISPA] Wimax gear
Comments inline below: I find these comparisons of products like Ubiquiti / Mikrotik vs. Motorola / WiMAX products to be somewhat unrealistic -- it seems to me that it's like comparing something that's hypothetical and looks good on paper and hoping that it will actually work I don't think Microtik and Ubiquiti are particularly similar - they certainly seem to have a very different philosophy and probably should be dicussed separately. I've also had some reservations about the integrated Ubiquiti units (see my earlier postings). But I have to say that those look primarily like teething issues, likely to be largely addressed within the next year to 18 months, rather than anything fundamentally wrong with Ubiquiti's technical approach to their integrated radios. Here's my question; sure, on paper, the new Ubiquiti WHATEVER will give me a Gazillion Mbps with Beamforming and everything for $10 -- but has anyone actually made this stuff work and scaled it into a profitable business? Probably not yet. But that's coming. Many of the WISPs that I've talked to who gone down this path have had to upgrade / replace / retool their networks due to the fact that these systems don't scale The one WISP that I know using Ubiquiti / Mikrotik with several thousand customers is only using them as endpoints on a Bel-Air Network Mesh infrastructure that they spent almost $1 million building out Our largest WISP (around 1200 customers) is using Ubiquiti that way too, at present. But they are strongly requesting that, instead of fully-integrated outdoor mesh radios, we develop an outdoor network appliance running our Layer 3 mesh software and related ISP functions, into which they could plug one or more separate Ubiquiti interated radios. That actually makes a fair amount of sense - in the ISP market we clearly can't compete at Layer 2 with Ubiquiti's astonishing price-points. It reminds me of the Asterisk vs. Broadsoft / Metaswitch VoIP debates from a couple of years back -- sure, Asterisk was free while a Broadsoft platform had an entry cost of $250k, but I know of tons of Broadsoft providers who support tens of thousands of customers for hosted PBX, and the only guy I know doing it on Asterisk ended up spending over $500k hiring a custom programming team in Russia to rebuild the system for him from scratch (he was joking to me that in hindsight, it would've been cheaper and a lot easier to just buy a Broadsoft) Comparing software to hardware here - apples and oranges. Ubiquiti clearly has shown the ability to bring unbelievably low cost production with decent (and improving) quality to bear on this market, and unless they really step in it, their production problems will be solved eventually. I probably would have done things a little differently - e.g. pricing the offerings so that there's a reasonable margin even if you don't completely take over the world, which their current pricing model probably requires to get to a $100MM+ / yr company - but you can't argue with their success. Tom S. I would like to be proven wrong here...so shoot =) -Charles WISPA Wants You! Join today! http://signup.wispa.org/ WISPA Wireless List: wireless@wispa.org Subscribe/Unsubscribe: http://lists.wispa.org/mailman/listinfo/wireless Archives: http://lists.wispa.org/pipermail/wireless/ No virus found in this incoming message. Checked by AVG - www.avg.com Version: 8.5.431 / Virus Database: 270.14.123/2594 - Release Date: 12/30/09 07:27:00 WISPA Wants You! Join today! http://signup.wispa.org/ WISPA Wireless List: wireless@wispa.org Subscribe/Unsubscribe: http://lists.wispa.org/mailman/listinfo/wireless Archives: http://lists.wispa.org/pipermail/wireless/
Re: [WISPA] Wimax gear - licensed bands btw
Many of those licenses had serious restrictions, which is why the auction reverse was so low in the first place. -Matt On Dec 31, 2009, at 1:24 AM, Charles Wu wrote: Speaking of which, did anyone notice the results of the latest BRS Auction (#86) Licenses went for an average of $0.03 / MHz POP That means if 60 MHz covering 100,000 people (as defined by Census 2000 numbers) would have gone for $180k -- with the small business 35% credit - that means a WISP would've paid $117k for that spectrum While $117k is nothing to sneeze at, it's just worth noting that getting a license is not something unreasonable or unobtainable for the small guy -Charles WISPA Wants You! Join today! http://signup.wispa.org/ WISPA Wireless List: wireless@wispa.org Subscribe/Unsubscribe: http://lists.wispa.org/mailman/listinfo/wireless Archives: http://lists.wispa.org/pipermail/wireless/ WISPA Wants You! Join today! http://signup.wispa.org/ WISPA Wireless List: wireless@wispa.org Subscribe/Unsubscribe: http://lists.wispa.org/mailman/listinfo/wireless Archives: http://lists.wispa.org/pipermail/wireless/
[WISPA] Wimax gear
Ubiquiti's move into the large scale market, whether it will work or not, is just happening now with AirMax. It slows the overall performance to much less than 150+ Mbps, but it might get to the 100/user per-AP scale. 3 or 6 months from now we will know of either large deployments or #ubntfail stories. Rubens -- Forwarded message -- From: Charles Wu c...@cticonnect.com Date: Thu, Dec 31, 2009 at 2:33 AM Subject: Re: [WISPA] Wimax gear To: WISPA General List wireless@wispa.org Let's go back to the original thread -- we were talking about how Ubiquiti was changing the game with their new $75 AP that does 150 Mb or something (as compared to the Alvarion/Motorolas/WiMAX guys of the world who still don't get it with their $3/5/10k APs) -- up until now, it's been my experience that this is an apples to oranges debate (heck, couldn't I make the same argument that belkin or dlink has had a super-N mimo AP for $69 at Best Buy for some time now?) That being said, if someone has built such a system, please pipe up and share your experiences -- I'm always interested in learning how to do things better/faster/cheaper... WISPA Wants You! Join today! http://signup.wispa.org/ WISPA Wireless List: wireless@wispa.org Subscribe/Unsubscribe: http://lists.wispa.org/mailman/listinfo/wireless Archives: http://lists.wispa.org/pipermail/wireless/
Re: [WISPA] Wimax gear
Let me throw a couple devil's advocate arguments into the mix. The claim was made that the advantage of Motorola is that you can get 100 subs per AP, while a Mikrotik or UBNT solution might get 30-40. Based on these assumptions, could the argument not be made that a year from now, a 100-subscriber Motorola AP with 14 megabit total capacity will be much more over-utilized than a Mikrotik 14meg solution with only 30-40 subscribers? I'm seeing this already on older Trango AP's with 70-80 subscribers. 10meg at 80 subscribers is just too much oversubscription with today's usage patterns. Then you can also look at the fact that the mikrotik can do the 14 meg in 10mhz bands, adding more efficiency (yes, gps sync helps even more, I know!). Then you look at a UBNT offering with, let's say 50 megabit in 20mhz with just 40 subscribers. You may get more life and get further along the growth curve with UBNT. Will it really scale to even 40? Dunno.. Sure would like to hear of real world experience, but that will obviously take time. Randy On 12/31/2009 7:48 AM, Rubens Kuhl wrote: Ubiquiti's move into the large scale market, whether it will work or not, is just happening now with AirMax. It slows the overall performance to much less than 150+ Mbps, but it might get to the 100/user per-AP scale. 3 or 6 months from now we will know of either large deployments or #ubntfail stories. Rubens -- Forwarded message -- From: Charles Wuc...@cticonnect.com Date: Thu, Dec 31, 2009 at 2:33 AM Subject: Re: [WISPA] Wimax gear To: WISPA General Listwireless@wispa.org Let's go back to the original thread -- we were talking about how Ubiquiti was changing the game with their new $75 AP that does 150 Mb or something (as compared to the Alvarion/Motorolas/WiMAX guys of the world who still don't get it with their $3/5/10k APs) -- up until now, it's been my experience that this is an apples to oranges debate (heck, couldn't I make the same argument that belkin or dlink has had a super-N mimo AP for $69 at Best Buy for some time now?) That being said, if someone has built such a system, please pipe up and share your experiences -- I'm always interested in learning how to do things better/faster/cheaper... WISPA Wants You! Join today! http://signup.wispa.org/ WISPA Wireless List: wireless@wispa.org Subscribe/Unsubscribe: http://lists.wispa.org/mailman/listinfo/wireless Archives: http://lists.wispa.org/pipermail/wireless/ -- Randy Cosby Vice President InfoWest, Inc 435-674-0165 x 2010 http://www.infowest.com/ Letting off steam always produces more heat than light. - Neal A. Maxwell WISPA Wants You! Join today! http://signup.wispa.org/ WISPA Wireless List: wireless@wispa.org Subscribe/Unsubscribe: http://lists.wispa.org/mailman/listinfo/wireless Archives: http://lists.wispa.org/pipermail/wireless/
Re: [WISPA] Wimax gear
We've just built out a new tower with Ubiquity M's in 2.4 w/airmax, we will be doing voice across it. We've been using the M's as client radios for several months the firmware is at a good base right now I think. Once we advertise this tower to our dialup base we will quickly test the scalability. We've been extremely happy with the pre-airmax gear, low failure rate, nice config/featureset, solid OS, tremendous support/customer interaction, not to mention the excellent ROI. This is great for rural, but we want to move into some of the cities in our area that is why we are looking at Wimax. Ubiquity doesn't play in 3.65 yet and it won't for a while and we need to move quickly, leasing loops from the LEC's is killing our wireline profit. Regards Michael Baird Ubiquiti's move into the large scale market, whether it will work or not, is just happening now with AirMax. It slows the overall performance to much less than 150+ Mbps, but it might get to the 100/user per-AP scale. 3 or 6 months from now we will know of either large deployments or #ubntfail stories. Rubens -- Forwarded message -- From: Charles Wu c...@cticonnect.com Date: Thu, Dec 31, 2009 at 2:33 AM Subject: Re: [WISPA] Wimax gear To: WISPA General List wireless@wispa.org Let's go back to the original thread -- we were talking about how Ubiquiti was changing the game with their new $75 AP that does 150 Mb or something (as compared to the Alvarion/Motorolas/WiMAX guys of the world who still don't get it with their $3/5/10k APs) -- up until now, it's been my experience that this is an apples to oranges debate (heck, couldn't I make the same argument that belkin or dlink has had a super-N mimo AP for $69 at Best Buy for some time now?) That being said, if someone has built such a system, please pipe up and share your experiences -- I'm always interested in learning how to do things better/faster/cheaper... WISPA Wants You! Join today! http://signup.wispa.org/ WISPA Wireless List: wireless@wispa.org Subscribe/Unsubscribe: http://lists.wispa.org/mailman/listinfo/wireless Archives: http://lists.wispa.org/pipermail/wireless/ WISPA Wants You! Join today! http://signup.wispa.org/ WISPA Wireless List: wireless@wispa.org Subscribe/Unsubscribe: http://lists.wispa.org/mailman/listinfo/wireless Archives: http://lists.wispa.org/pipermail/wireless/
Re: [WISPA] Wimax gear
My most populated UBNT has 43 people on it (too much), RTS 768 on each client radio, the CPU utilization averages 32%, peak of 68%, no complaints of performance. Our AP's do very little however no routing/no nat/no auth, traffic shaping/auth is done at the IP level on the redback. I plan to swap the radios out at this tower for BulletM series radios in non-airmax mode as they have 3 times the CPU horsepower, and I should be able to get close to 100 per sector on my legacy towers I believe. Regards Michael Baird Let me throw a couple devil's advocate arguments into the mix. The claim was made that the advantage of Motorola is that you can get 100 subs per AP, while a Mikrotik or UBNT solution might get 30-40. Based on these assumptions, could the argument not be made that a year from now, a 100-subscriber Motorola AP with 14 megabit total capacity will be much more over-utilized than a Mikrotik 14meg solution with only 30-40 subscribers? I'm seeing this already on older Trango AP's with 70-80 subscribers. 10meg at 80 subscribers is just too much oversubscription with today's usage patterns. Then you can also look at the fact that the mikrotik can do the 14 meg in 10mhz bands, adding more efficiency (yes, gps sync helps even more, I know!). Then you look at a UBNT offering with, let's say 50 megabit in 20mhz with just 40 subscribers. You may get more life and get further along the growth curve with UBNT. Will it really scale to even 40? Dunno.. Sure would like to hear of real world experience, but that will obviously take time. Randy On 12/31/2009 7:48 AM, Rubens Kuhl wrote: Ubiquiti's move into the large scale market, whether it will work or not, is just happening now with AirMax. It slows the overall performance to much less than 150+ Mbps, but it might get to the 100/user per-AP scale. 3 or 6 months from now we will know of either large deployments or #ubntfail stories. Rubens -- Forwarded message -- From: Charles Wuc...@cticonnect.com Date: Thu, Dec 31, 2009 at 2:33 AM Subject: Re: [WISPA] Wimax gear To: WISPA General Listwireless@wispa.org Let's go back to the original thread -- we were talking about how Ubiquiti was changing the game with their new $75 AP that does 150 Mb or something (as compared to the Alvarion/Motorolas/WiMAX guys of the world who still don't get it with their $3/5/10k APs) -- up until now, it's been my experience that this is an apples to oranges debate (heck, couldn't I make the same argument that belkin or dlink has had a super-N mimo AP for $69 at Best Buy for some time now?) That being said, if someone has built such a system, please pipe up and share your experiences -- I'm always interested in learning how to do things better/faster/cheaper... WISPA Wants You! Join today! http://signup.wispa.org/ WISPA Wireless List: wireless@wispa.org Subscribe/Unsubscribe: http://lists.wispa.org/mailman/listinfo/wireless Archives: http://lists.wispa.org/pipermail/wireless/ WISPA Wants You! Join today! http://signup.wispa.org/ WISPA Wireless List: wireless@wispa.org Subscribe/Unsubscribe: http://lists.wispa.org/mailman/listinfo/wireless Archives: http://lists.wispa.org/pipermail/wireless/
Re: [WISPA] Wimax gear
I know that in some cases it's appropriate and I've said this every time this discussion comes up, but running this holy grail of 100 customers per AP is just rubbish and will become more rubbish as time goes on. These lists alternate between the same two threads almost indefinitely. One is that everything but Canopy is horrible, while the other is that we don't have enough bandwidth to provide current, much less next-generation services. Low bandwidth wireless systems will not work with these 100 users per AP as NetFlix and similar services increase adoption. Wireless systems will have to support hundreds of megabits per second if we're going to have 100 users on an AP, not the 40 the latest and greatest Canopy supports. If UBNT can only do 40 customers out of it's 100 megabit PtMP AirMax system, great! When people fire up their 5 meg HD NetFlix streams, everything still works. - Mike Hammett Intelligent Computing Solutions http://www.ics-il.com -- From: Rubens Kuhl rube...@gmail.com Sent: Thursday, December 31, 2009 8:48 AM To: wireless@wispa.org Subject: [WISPA] Wimax gear Ubiquiti's move into the large scale market, whether it will work or not, is just happening now with AirMax. It slows the overall performance to much less than 150+ Mbps, but it might get to the 100/user per-AP scale. 3 or 6 months from now we will know of either large deployments or #ubntfail stories. Rubens -- Forwarded message -- From: Charles Wu c...@cticonnect.com Date: Thu, Dec 31, 2009 at 2:33 AM Subject: Re: [WISPA] Wimax gear To: WISPA General List wireless@wispa.org Let's go back to the original thread -- we were talking about how Ubiquiti was changing the game with their new $75 AP that does 150 Mb or something (as compared to the Alvarion/Motorolas/WiMAX guys of the world who still don't get it with their $3/5/10k APs) -- up until now, it's been my experience that this is an apples to oranges debate (heck, couldn't I make the same argument that belkin or dlink has had a super-N mimo AP for $69 at Best Buy for some time now?) That being said, if someone has built such a system, please pipe up and share your experiences -- I'm always interested in learning how to do things better/faster/cheaper... WISPA Wants You! Join today! http://signup.wispa.org/ WISPA Wireless List: wireless@wispa.org Subscribe/Unsubscribe: http://lists.wispa.org/mailman/listinfo/wireless Archives: http://lists.wispa.org/pipermail/wireless/ WISPA Wants You! Join today! http://signup.wispa.org/ WISPA Wireless List: wireless@wispa.org Subscribe/Unsubscribe: http://lists.wispa.org/mailman/listinfo/wireless Archives: http://lists.wispa.org/pipermail/wireless/
Re: [WISPA] Wimax gear
You need to take in consideration that the Ubnt AirMax true data thoughtput is about 70 Mbps in highest modulation and under very low noise scenario. Now take on consideration that it uses dual pol to achieve this so you limit your colocation options Taking that in account, expect 30 to 50 Mbps In a true field deployment under average noise conditions And you can only colocate 3 or 4 aps per site, then try to growth your footprint Compare that to the Canopy 430 line with 45 Mbps per ap with gps sync and A very broad channel reuse facility Sent from my Motorola Startac... On Dec 31, 2009, at 11:20 AM, Randy Cosby dco...@infowest.com wrote: Let me throw a couple devil's advocate arguments into the mix. The claim was made that the advantage of Motorola is that you can get 100 subs per AP, while a Mikrotik or UBNT solution might get 30-40. Based on these assumptions, could the argument not be made that a year from now, a 100-subscriber Motorola AP with 14 megabit total capacity will be much more over-utilized than a Mikrotik 14meg solution with only 30-40 subscribers? I'm seeing this already on older Trango AP's with 70-80 subscribers. 10meg at 80 subscribers is just too much oversubscription with today's usage patterns. Then you can also look at the fact that the mikrotik can do the 14 meg in 10mhz bands, adding more efficiency (yes, gps sync helps even more, I know!). Then you look at a UBNT offering with, let's say 50 megabit in 20mhz with just 40 subscribers. You may get more life and get further along the growth curve with UBNT. Will it really scale to even 40? Dunno.. Sure would like to hear of real world experience, but that will obviously take time. Randy On 12/31/2009 7:48 AM, Rubens Kuhl wrote: Ubiquiti's move into the large scale market, whether it will work or not, is just happening now with AirMax. It slows the overall performance to much less than 150+ Mbps, but it might get to the 100/user per-AP scale. 3 or 6 months from now we will know of either large deployments or #ubntfail stories. Rubens -- Forwarded message -- From: Charles Wuc...@cticonnect.com Date: Thu, Dec 31, 2009 at 2:33 AM Subject: Re: [WISPA] Wimax gear To: WISPA General Listwireless@wispa.org Let's go back to the original thread -- we were talking about how Ubiquiti was changing the game with their new $75 AP that does 150 Mb or something (as compared to the Alvarion/Motorolas/WiMAX guys of the world who still don't get it with their $3/5/10k APs) -- up until now, it's been my experience that this is an apples to oranges debate (heck, couldn't I make the same argument that belkin or dlink has had a super-N mimo AP for $69 at Best Buy for some time now?) That being said, if someone has built such a system, please pipe up and share your experiences -- I'm always interested in learning how to do things better/faster/cheaper... --- --- --- --- WISPA Wants You! Join today! http://signup.wispa.org/ --- --- --- --- WISPA Wireless List: wireless@wispa.org Subscribe/Unsubscribe: http://lists.wispa.org/mailman/listinfo/wireless Archives: http://lists.wispa.org/pipermail/wireless/ -- Randy Cosby Vice President InfoWest, Inc 435-674-0165 x 2010 http://www.infowest.com/ Letting off steam always produces more heat than light. - Neal A. Maxwell --- --- --- --- WISPA Wants You! Join today! http://signup.wispa.org/ --- --- --- --- WISPA Wireless List: wireless@wispa.org Subscribe/Unsubscribe: http://lists.wispa.org/mailman/listinfo/wireless Archives: http://lists.wispa.org/pipermail/wireless/ WISPA Wants You! Join today! http://signup.wispa.org/ WISPA Wireless List: wireless@wispa.org Subscribe/Unsubscribe: http://lists.wispa.org/mailman/listinfo/wireless Archives: http://lists.wispa.org/pipermail/wireless/
Re: [WISPA] Wimax gear
Gino Villarini wrote: You need to take in consideration that the Ubnt AirMax true data thoughtput is about 70 Mbps in highest modulation and under very low noise scenario Ok, well that's probably a good estimate w/20 mhz channel width. Now take on consideration that it uses dual pol to achieve this so you limit your colocation options Not sure what difference this makes, uses the same amount of frequency and both polls are in the same antenna. Taking that in account, expect 30 to 50 Mbps In a true field deployment under average noise conditions Ok, what is wrong with that, sounds great. And you can only colocate 3 or 4 aps per site, then try to growth your footprint Why? There is no difference in colocation with Airmax vs. non-airmax, do you think each chain needs it's own channel or something? They don't. Compare that to the Canopy 430 line with 45 Mbps per ap with gps sync and A very broad channel reuse facility Sent from my Motorola Startac... On Dec 31, 2009, at 11:20 AM, Randy Cosby dco...@infowest.com wrote: Let me throw a couple devil's advocate arguments into the mix. The claim was made that the advantage of Motorola is that you can get 100 subs per AP, while a Mikrotik or UBNT solution might get 30-40. Based on these assumptions, could the argument not be made that a year from now, a 100-subscriber Motorola AP with 14 megabit total capacity will be much more over-utilized than a Mikrotik 14meg solution with only 30-40 subscribers? I'm seeing this already on older Trango AP's with 70-80 subscribers. 10meg at 80 subscribers is just too much oversubscription with today's usage patterns. Then you can also look at the fact that the mikrotik can do the 14 meg in 10mhz bands, adding more efficiency (yes, gps sync helps even more, I know!). Then you look at a UBNT offering with, let's say 50 megabit in 20mhz with just 40 subscribers. You may get more life and get further along the growth curve with UBNT. Will it really scale to even 40? Dunno.. Sure would like to hear of real world experience, but that will obviously take time. Randy On 12/31/2009 7:48 AM, Rubens Kuhl wrote: Ubiquiti's move into the large scale market, whether it will work or not, is just happening now with AirMax. It slows the overall performance to much less than 150+ Mbps, but it might get to the 100/user per-AP scale. 3 or 6 months from now we will know of either large deployments or #ubntfail stories. Rubens -- Forwarded message -- From: Charles Wuc...@cticonnect.com Date: Thu, Dec 31, 2009 at 2:33 AM Subject: Re: [WISPA] Wimax gear To: WISPA General Listwireless@wispa.org Let's go back to the original thread -- we were talking about how Ubiquiti was changing the game with their new $75 AP that does 150 Mb or something (as compared to the Alvarion/Motorolas/WiMAX guys of the world who still don't get it with their $3/5/10k APs) -- up until now, it's been my experience that this is an apples to oranges debate (heck, couldn't I make the same argument that belkin or dlink has had a super-N mimo AP for $69 at Best Buy for some time now?) That being said, if someone has built such a system, please pipe up and share your experiences -- I'm always interested in learning how to do things better/faster/cheaper... --- --- --- --- WISPA Wants You! Join today! http://signup.wispa.org/ --- --- --- --- WISPA Wireless List: wireless@wispa.org Subscribe/Unsubscribe: http://lists.wispa.org/mailman/listinfo/wireless Archives: http://lists.wispa.org/pipermail/wireless/ -- Randy Cosby Vice President InfoWest, Inc 435-674-0165 x 2010 http://www.infowest.com/ Letting off steam always produces more heat than light. - Neal A. Maxwell --- --- --- --- WISPA Wants You! Join today! http://signup.wispa.org/ --- --- --- --- WISPA Wireless List: wireless@wispa.org Subscribe/Unsubscribe: http://lists.wispa.org/mailman/listinfo/wireless Archives: http://lists.wispa.org/pipermail/wireless/ WISPA Wants You! Join today! http://signup.wispa.org/ WISPA Wireless List: wireless@wispa.org Subscribe/Unsubscribe: http://lists.wispa.org/mailman/listinfo/wireless Archives: http://lists.wispa.org/pipermail/wireless/ WISPA Wants You! Join today! http://signup.wispa.org
Re: [WISPA] Wimax gear
Not sure what difference this makes, uses the same amount of frequency and both polls are in the same antenna. You probability of finding clean spectrum on both polarities drops and your collocation options using cross polarity and channel separation drops too Why? There is no difference in colocation with Airmax vs. non-airmax, do you think each chain needs it's own channel or something? They don't. I do know they don't need diff channels, but as stated above, you are very limited on channel selections, and finding the right channel on sector A, means that you limit yourself on sector B, C and D. (thinking you are using 4 sectors per site) Then extrapolate that to 4 to 6 adjacent tower sites and youll be dancing the channel change tune for a while. What happens inf 6 months down the road a Tsunami PTP Link kills 2 of your channels on 1 Tower Gino A. Villarini g...@aeronetpr.com Aeronet Wireless Broadband Corp. 787.273.4143 -Original Message- From: wireless-boun...@wispa.org [mailto:wireless-boun...@wispa.org] On Behalf Of Michael Baird Sent: Thursday, December 31, 2009 1:23 PM To: WISPA General List Subject: Re: [WISPA] Wimax gear Gino Villarini wrote: You need to take in consideration that the Ubnt AirMax true data thoughtput is about 70 Mbps in highest modulation and under very low noise scenario Ok, well that's probably a good estimate w/20 mhz channel width. Now take on consideration that it uses dual pol to achieve this so you limit your colocation options Not sure what difference this makes, uses the same amount of frequency and both polls are in the same antenna. Taking that in account, expect 30 to 50 Mbps In a true field deployment under average noise conditions Ok, what is wrong with that, sounds great. And you can only colocate 3 or 4 aps per site, then try to growth your footprint Why? There is no difference in colocation with Airmax vs. non-airmax, do you think each chain needs it's own channel or something? They don't. Compare that to the Canopy 430 line with 45 Mbps per ap with gps sync and A very broad channel reuse facility Sent from my Motorola Startac... On Dec 31, 2009, at 11:20 AM, Randy Cosby dco...@infowest.com wrote: Let me throw a couple devil's advocate arguments into the mix. The claim was made that the advantage of Motorola is that you can get 100 subs per AP, while a Mikrotik or UBNT solution might get 30-40. Based on these assumptions, could the argument not be made that a year from now, a 100-subscriber Motorola AP with 14 megabit total capacity will be much more over-utilized than a Mikrotik 14meg solution with only 30-40 subscribers? I'm seeing this already on older Trango AP's with 70-80 subscribers. 10meg at 80 subscribers is just too much oversubscription with today's usage patterns. Then you can also look at the fact that the mikrotik can do the 14 meg in 10mhz bands, adding more efficiency (yes, gps sync helps even more, I know!). Then you look at a UBNT offering with, let's say 50 megabit in 20mhz with just 40 subscribers. You may get more life and get further along the growth curve with UBNT. Will it really scale to even 40? Dunno.. Sure would like to hear of real world experience, but that will obviously take time. Randy On 12/31/2009 7:48 AM, Rubens Kuhl wrote: Ubiquiti's move into the large scale market, whether it will work or not, is just happening now with AirMax. It slows the overall performance to much less than 150+ Mbps, but it might get to the 100/user per-AP scale. 3 or 6 months from now we will know of either large deployments or #ubntfail stories. Rubens -- Forwarded message -- From: Charles Wuc...@cticonnect.com Date: Thu, Dec 31, 2009 at 2:33 AM Subject: Re: [WISPA] Wimax gear To: WISPA General Listwireless@wispa.org Let's go back to the original thread -- we were talking about how Ubiquiti was changing the game with their new $75 AP that does 150 Mb or something (as compared to the Alvarion/Motorolas/WiMAX guys of the world who still don't get it with their $3/5/10k APs) -- up until now, it's been my experience that this is an apples to oranges debate (heck, couldn't I make the same argument that belkin or dlink has had a super-N mimo AP for $69 at Best Buy for some time now?) That being said, if someone has built such a system, please pipe up and share your experiences -- I'm always interested in learning how to do things better/faster/cheaper... --- --- --- --- WISPA Wants You! Join today! http://signup.wispa.org/ --- --- --- --- WISPA Wireless List: wireless@wispa.org Subscribe/Unsubscribe: http://lists.wispa.org/mailman/listinfo/wireless Archives: http://lists.wispa.org/pipermail/wireless/ -- Randy
Re: [WISPA] Wimax gear
I don't see LTE being developed for other markets than cellcos Don't expect a LTE system for EBS spectrum Sent from my Motorola Startac... On Dec 30, 2009, at 3:00 AM, Blake Covarrubias bl...@beamspeed.com wrote: I'd say the question boils down to who's going to foot the bill for the deployment -- you or the government =) With or without government stimulus I'm curious of the lists' general consensus on whether or not WiMAX is worthwhile investment in this 'war' of LTE vs WiMAX. Having Uncle Sam foot the bill on a deployment definitely lowers / removes the financial barrier, but doesn't really matter if deploying WiMAX is a foolish endeavor from the get-go due to lack of customer demand or vendors ceasing development. I believe WiMAX has an opportunity to be commercially viable at least for a couple of years, and I don't see any reason to not take advantage of that fact. But, what do I know. Consider this a question solely for the sake of debate. -- Blake Covarrubias --- --- --- --- WISPA Wants You! Join today! http://signup.wispa.org/ --- --- --- --- WISPA Wireless List: wireless@wispa.org Subscribe/Unsubscribe: http://lists.wispa.org/mailman/listinfo/wireless Archives: http://lists.wispa.org/pipermail/wireless/ WISPA Wants You! Join today! http://signup.wispa.org/ WISPA Wireless List: wireless@wispa.org Subscribe/Unsubscribe: http://lists.wispa.org/mailman/listinfo/wireless Archives: http://lists.wispa.org/pipermail/wireless/
Re: [WISPA] Wimax gear
Sounds like you gave a choice for the answer, if the government does, then you have, twice. WIMAX equipment cost is the entry block. As broadband needs keep growing, you'll see an increased number of smaller wisp cells using equipment such as UBNT. That is until the government uses your money to give to the big three under the guise that America needs it to solve the health care, unemployment, terrorist problems. -- Original Message -- From: Charles Wu c...@cticonnect.com Reply-To: WISPA General List wireless@wispa.org Date: Wed, 30 Dec 2009 00:18:48 -0600 LTE has already won and .16e will find only small, limited life and even less mass development. Do you see any point in small BRS/EBS (MMDS/ITFS) license holders deploying 802.16e in these frequency bands? Hi Blake, I'd say the question boils down to who's going to foot the bill for the deployment -- you or the government =) -Charles WISPA Wants You! Join today! http://signup.wispa.org/ WISPA Wireless List: wireless@wispa.org Subscribe/Unsubscribe: http://lists.wispa.org/mailman/listinfo/wireless Archives: http://lists.wispa.org/pipermail/wireless/ WISPA Wants You! Join today! http://signup.wispa.org/ WISPA Wireless List: wireless@wispa.org Subscribe/Unsubscribe: http://lists.wispa.org/mailman/listinfo/wireless Archives: http://lists.wispa.org/pipermail/wireless/ Sent via the WebMail system at avolve.net WISPA Wants You! Join today! http://signup.wispa.org/ WISPA Wireless List: wireless@wispa.org Subscribe/Unsubscribe: http://lists.wispa.org/mailman/listinfo/wireless Archives: http://lists.wispa.org/pipermail/wireless/
Re: [WISPA] Wimax gear
Depends... are you deploying WiMAX for fixed operation or for mobile operation with self install kits, etc. If Fixed... then yes I think it has a future. Professional installs, and better QoS in typically virgin spectrum ='s opportunity. If not... then I don't think a WISP (as we probably define it) is ever really going to be profitable with it. Self-installs on wireless gear have problems in their own right (look at all of the Clearwire horror stories, and they get to use the EBS spectrum) and mobility is doomed because they will probably only be mobile within your footprint, which for most WISP's isn't that big (why pay xxx amount to only be able to roam in city x when I could pay xxx for LTE/3G and roam across the country). 802.16e in its pure form IMHO is only going to work for carriers like Open Range and Clearwire utilizing 2.5GHz licensed spectrum. But what about Motorola's new product? Remember it's a fixed 802.16e, so you don't get the benefits of mobility, no indoor CPE's are planned as far as I know, but it is supposed to pay off in NLOS situations (which is anecdotal until we can get gear on a tower and test). Daniel White 3-dB Networks http://www.3dbnetworks.com dan...@3-db.net -Original Message- From: wireless-boun...@wispa.org [mailto:wireless-boun...@wispa.org] On Behalf Of Blake Covarrubias Sent: Tuesday, December 29, 2009 11:56 PM To: WISPA General List Subject: Re: [WISPA] Wimax gear I'd say the question boils down to who's going to foot the bill for the deployment -- you or the government =) With or without government stimulus I'm curious of the lists' general consensus on whether or not WiMAX is worthwhile investment in this 'war' of LTE vs WiMAX. Having Uncle Sam foot the bill on a deployment definitely lowers / removes the financial barrier, but doesn't really matter if deploying WiMAX is a foolish endeavor from the get-go due to lack of customer demand or vendors ceasing development. I believe WiMAX has an opportunity to be commercially viable at least for a couple of years, and I don't see any reason to not take advantage of that fact. But, what do I know. Consider this a question solely for the sake of debate. -- Blake Covarrubias WISPA Wants You! Join today! http://signup.wispa.org/ WISPA Wireless List: wireless@wispa.org Subscribe/Unsubscribe: http://lists.wispa.org/mailman/listinfo/wireless Archives: http://lists.wispa.org/pipermail/wireless/ WISPA Wants You! Join today! http://signup.wispa.org/ WISPA Wireless List: wireless@wispa.org Subscribe/Unsubscribe: http://lists.wispa.org/mailman/listinfo/wireless Archives: http://lists.wispa.org/pipermail/wireless/
Re: [WISPA] Wimax gear
Sorry I saw this on CNN and it made me laugh http://money.cnn.com/2009/12/30/autos/GM_Corvette_recall.cnnw/index.htm Daniel White 3-dB Networks http://www.3dbnetworks.com dan...@3-db.net -Original Message- From: wireless-boun...@wispa.org [mailto:wireless-boun...@wispa.org] On Behalf Of Mike Hammett Sent: Tuesday, December 29, 2009 7:33 PM To: WISPA General List Subject: Re: [WISPA] Wimax gear I'd say it'd be more like comparing a Corvette with a Porsche... in the right hands in many cases, a Corvette will beat the Porsche, but the Porsche is 35x more expensive. - Mike Hammett Intelligent Computing Solutions http://www.ics-il.com -- From: Gino Villarini g...@aeronetpr.com Sent: Tuesday, December 29, 2009 8:01 PM To: WISPA General List wireless@wispa.org Cc: WISPA General List wireless@wispa.org Subject: Re: [WISPA] Wimax gear Tom ROTFL You can't compare a ubiquiti to a motorola 16e That's like comparing a Yugo with a Porsche Sent from my Motorola Startac... On Dec 29, 2009, at 9:00 PM, Tom DeReggi wirelessn...@rapiddsl.net wrote: I will admit, Moto has made a name for itself as a company that is here for the long haul. From that perspective, its always excitign to learn about new Moto products on their way. No problem with the $350 CPE level. But, I'd argue $3500 AP is still way to high, even for 802.16e MIMO. The truth is, we all know the cost to make a MIMO device hardware is not that much more than to make legacy non-MIMO, or I should say, very insignificant compared to the market value of the higher capacity. Its all opportunity mark up. (Sure MIMO takes more processor power, more antennas, etc, but those things are likely obtainable cheaper today than their legacy components were when they were designed). I'd also argue that RF speed/price is similar to Computer CPU speed/ price concepts. 50 mbps today is equivelent in value to what 10mbps was to us 5 years ago. Therefore price points should not exceed the cost of 10mbps 5 years ago, for the WISP to get a break even on the new technology. This is from both the perspective of consumer's demand for higher speeds, as well as technology advancement. I'd pose the same arguements Ubiquiti AP $99. vs Moto AP $3500. Paying 35x more for an AP is a tough call. Dont get me wrong, I've always been in favor of higher cost AP, simply because it discourages putting them up unnecessarilly to create noise, before they are needed, and discourages harry high school kid from calling themselves a WISP with one paycheck from McDs. But I'd argued Moto would need to beat the current Canopy Advantage line AP cost in order to make a big splash in the market. Tom DeReggi RapidDSL Wireless, Inc IntAirNet- Fixed Wireless Broadband - Original Message - From: 3-dB Networks wi...@3-db.net To: 'WISPA General List' wireless@wispa.org Sent: Tuesday, December 29, 2009 6:39 PM Subject: Re: [WISPA] Wimax gear Everytime I see that pricing it makes me cringe... since I've seen Moto give pricing way before a product is actually set to release and its way off the mark. I hope it's right for Moto sake :-) Daniel White 3-dB Networks http://www.3dbnetworks.com dan...@3-db.net -Original Message- From: wireless-boun...@wispa.org [mailto:wireless- boun...@wispa.org] On Behalf Of Gino Villarini Sent: Tuesday, December 29, 2009 4:07 PM To: WISPA General List Subject: Re: [WISPA] Wimax gear Soon as in q1 or q2 IIRC $350~ SM $3500~ AP Specs are in the website under 320 series Sent from my Motorola Startac... On Dec 29, 2009, at 6:50 PM, Tom DeReggi wirelessn...@rapiddsl.net wrote: moto Did you mean they are comming out with soon? or did you really mean they are talking about comming out with? In WISP time, there is a big difference. Yeah, it would be cool if that was comming in the near future at current Canopy level price points. But that is an if. Tom DeReggi RapidDSL Wireless, Inc IntAirNet- Fixed Wireless Broadband - Original Message - From: Gino Villarini g...@aeronetpr.com To: WISPA General List wireless@wispa.org Cc: WISPA General List wireless@wispa.org Sent: Tuesday, December 29, 2009 5:05 PM Subject: Re: [WISPA] Wimax gear Less? Moto is comming out with a 16e system with 4.5 bits per hz using mimo Sent from my Motorola Startac... On Dec 29, 2009, at 4:45 PM, Patrick Leary ple...@apertonet.com wrote: Why is your basic criteria .16e with MIMO (or .16e at all)? All .16e gets you in 3.65 GHz is much more (30% more) latency, less throughput per MHz, higher overhead and more cost. And you won't get any hope for interoperability, indoor modems, USB dongles or PC cards, since those are only applicable to licensed bands. Patrick Leary Aperto Networks 813.426.4230 mobile -Original Message- From: wireless-boun...@wispa.org
Re: [WISPA] Wimax gear
Funny But I would say Im very satisfied with my current BMW Gino A. Villarini g...@aeronetpr.com Aeronet Wireless Broadband Corp. 787.273.4143 -Original Message- From: wireless-boun...@wispa.org [mailto:wireless-boun...@wispa.org] On Behalf Of 3-dB Networks Sent: Wednesday, December 30, 2009 11:04 AM To: 'WISPA General List' Subject: Re: [WISPA] Wimax gear Sorry I saw this on CNN and it made me laugh http://money.cnn.com/2009/12/30/autos/GM_Corvette_recall.cnnw/index.htm Daniel White 3-dB Networks http://www.3dbnetworks.com dan...@3-db.net -Original Message- From: wireless-boun...@wispa.org [mailto:wireless-boun...@wispa.org] On Behalf Of Mike Hammett Sent: Tuesday, December 29, 2009 7:33 PM To: WISPA General List Subject: Re: [WISPA] Wimax gear I'd say it'd be more like comparing a Corvette with a Porsche... in the right hands in many cases, a Corvette will beat the Porsche, but the Porsche is 35x more expensive. - Mike Hammett Intelligent Computing Solutions http://www.ics-il.com -- From: Gino Villarini g...@aeronetpr.com Sent: Tuesday, December 29, 2009 8:01 PM To: WISPA General List wireless@wispa.org Cc: WISPA General List wireless@wispa.org Subject: Re: [WISPA] Wimax gear Tom ROTFL You can't compare a ubiquiti to a motorola 16e That's like comparing a Yugo with a Porsche Sent from my Motorola Startac... On Dec 29, 2009, at 9:00 PM, Tom DeReggi wirelessn...@rapiddsl.net wrote: I will admit, Moto has made a name for itself as a company that is here for the long haul. From that perspective, its always excitign to learn about new Moto products on their way. No problem with the $350 CPE level. But, I'd argue $3500 AP is still way to high, even for 802.16e MIMO. The truth is, we all know the cost to make a MIMO device hardware is not that much more than to make legacy non-MIMO, or I should say, very insignificant compared to the market value of the higher capacity. Its all opportunity mark up. (Sure MIMO takes more processor power, more antennas, etc, but those things are likely obtainable cheaper today than their legacy components were when they were designed). I'd also argue that RF speed/price is similar to Computer CPU speed/ price concepts. 50 mbps today is equivelent in value to what 10mbps was to us 5 years ago. Therefore price points should not exceed the cost of 10mbps 5 years ago, for the WISP to get a break even on the new technology. This is from both the perspective of consumer's demand for higher speeds, as well as technology advancement. I'd pose the same arguements Ubiquiti AP $99. vs Moto AP $3500. Paying 35x more for an AP is a tough call. Dont get me wrong, I've always been in favor of higher cost AP, simply because it discourages putting them up unnecessarilly to create noise, before they are needed, and discourages harry high school kid from calling themselves a WISP with one paycheck from McDs. But I'd argued Moto would need to beat the current Canopy Advantage line AP cost in order to make a big splash in the market. Tom DeReggi RapidDSL Wireless, Inc IntAirNet- Fixed Wireless Broadband - Original Message - From: 3-dB Networks wi...@3-db.net To: 'WISPA General List' wireless@wispa.org Sent: Tuesday, December 29, 2009 6:39 PM Subject: Re: [WISPA] Wimax gear Everytime I see that pricing it makes me cringe... since I've seen Moto give pricing way before a product is actually set to release and its way off the mark. I hope it's right for Moto sake :-) Daniel White 3-dB Networks http://www.3dbnetworks.com dan...@3-db.net -Original Message- From: wireless-boun...@wispa.org [mailto:wireless- boun...@wispa.org] On Behalf Of Gino Villarini Sent: Tuesday, December 29, 2009 4:07 PM To: WISPA General List Subject: Re: [WISPA] Wimax gear Soon as in q1 or q2 IIRC $350~ SM $3500~ AP Specs are in the website under 320 series Sent from my Motorola Startac... On Dec 29, 2009, at 6:50 PM, Tom DeReggi wirelessn...@rapiddsl.net wrote: moto Did you mean they are comming out with soon? or did you really mean they are talking about comming out with? In WISP time, there is a big difference. Yeah, it would be cool if that was comming in the near future at current Canopy level price points. But that is an if. Tom DeReggi RapidDSL Wireless, Inc IntAirNet- Fixed Wireless Broadband - Original Message - From: Gino Villarini g...@aeronetpr.com To: WISPA General List wireless@wispa.org Cc: WISPA General List wireless@wispa.org Sent: Tuesday, December 29, 2009 5:05 PM Subject: Re: [WISPA] Wimax gear Less? Moto is comming out with a 16e system with 4.5 bits per hz using mimo Sent from my Motorola Startac... On Dec 29, 2009, at 4:45 PM, Patrick Leary ple...@apertonet.com wrote: Why is your basic criteria .16e with MIMO (or .16e at all)? All .16e
Re: [WISPA] Wimax gear
I race Corvettes and would take one any day over a Porsche and while the Porsche race drivers are pretty cool, I find most Porsche "off track" owners to be rather snobbish...but I not sure what any of that has to do with Wimax??? 3-dB Networks wrote: Sorry I saw this on CNN and it made me laugh http://money.cnn.com/2009/12/30/autos/GM_Corvette_recall.cnnw/index.htm Daniel White 3-dB Networks http://www.3dbnetworks.com dan...@3-db.net -Original Message- From: wireless-boun...@wispa.org [mailto:wireless-boun...@wispa.org] On Behalf Of Mike Hammett Sent: Tuesday, December 29, 2009 7:33 PM To: WISPA General List Subject: Re: [WISPA] Wimax gear I'd say it'd be more like comparing a Corvette with a Porsche... in the right hands in many cases, a Corvette will beat the Porsche, but the Porsche is 35x more expensive. - Mike Hammett Intelligent Computing Solutions http://www.ics-il.com -- From: "Gino Villarini" g...@aeronetpr.com Sent: Tuesday, December 29, 2009 8:01 PM To: "WISPA General List" wireless@wispa.org Cc: "WISPA General List" wireless@wispa.org Subject: Re: [WISPA] Wimax gear Tom ROTFL You can't compare a ubiquiti to a motorola 16e That's like comparing a Yugo with a Porsche Sent from my Motorola Startac... On Dec 29, 2009, at 9:00 PM, "Tom DeReggi" wirelessn...@rapiddsl.net wrote: I will admit, Moto has made a name for itself as a company that is here for the long haul. From that perspective, its always excitign to learn about new Moto products on their way. No problem with the $350 CPE level. But, I'd argue $3500 AP is still way to high, even for 802.16e MIMO. The truth is, we all know the cost to make a MIMO device hardware is not that much more than to make legacy non-MIMO, or I should say, very insignificant compared to the market value of the higher capacity. Its all opportunity mark up. (Sure MIMO takes more processor power, more antennas, etc, but those things are likely obtainable cheaper today than their legacy components were when they were designed). I'd also argue that RF speed/price is similar to Computer CPU speed/ price concepts. 50 mbps today is equivelent in value to what 10mbps was to us 5 years ago. Therefore price points should not exceed the cost of 10mbps 5 years ago, for the WISP to get a break even on the new technology. This is from both the perspective of consumer's demand for higher speeds, as well as technology advancement. I'd pose the same arguements Ubiquiti AP $99. vs Moto AP $3500. Paying 35x more for an AP is a tough call. Dont get me wrong, I've always been in favor of higher cost AP, simply because it discourages putting them up unnecessarilly to create noise, before they are needed, and discourages harry high school kid from calling themselves a WISP with one paycheck from McDs. But I'd argued Moto would need to beat the current Canopy Advantage line AP cost in order to make a big splash in the market. Tom DeReggi RapidDSL Wireless, Inc IntAirNet- Fixed Wireless Broadband - Original Message - From: "3-dB Networks" wi...@3-db.net To: "'WISPA General List'" wireless@wispa.org Sent: Tuesday, December 29, 2009 6:39 PM Subject: Re: [WISPA] Wimax gear Everytime I see that pricing it makes me cringe... since I've seen Moto give pricing way before a product is actually set to release and its way off the mark. I hope it's right for Moto sake :-) Daniel White 3-dB Networks http://www.3dbnetworks.com dan...@3-db.net -Original Message- From: wireless-boun...@wispa.org [mailto:wireless- boun...@wispa.org] On Behalf Of Gino Villarini Sent: Tuesday, December 29, 2009 4:07 PM To: WISPA General List Subject: Re: [WISPA] Wimax gear Soon as in q1 or q2 IIRC $350~ SM $3500~ AP Specs are in the website under 320 series Sent from my Motorola Startac... On Dec 29, 2009, at 6:50 PM, "Tom DeReggi" wirelessn...@rapiddsl.net wrote: moto Did you mean they are comming out with soon? or did you really mean they are talking about comming out with? In WISP time, there is a big difference. Yeah, it would be cool if that was comming in the near future at current Canopy level price points. But that is an if. Tom DeReggi RapidDSL Wireless, Inc IntAirNet- Fixed Wireless Broadband - Original Message - From: "Gino Villarini" g...@aeronetpr.com To: "WISPA General List" wireless@wispa.org Cc: "WISPA General List" wireless@wispa.org Sent: Tuesday, December 29, 2009 5:05 PM Subject: Re: [WISPA] Wimax gear Less? Moto is comming out with a 16e system with 4.5 bits per hz using mimo Sent from my Motorola Startac... On Dec 29, 2009, at 4:45 PM, "
Re: [WISPA] Wimax gear
Maybe one can outrun 802.16e? From: wireless-boun...@wispa.org [mailto:wireless-boun...@wispa.org] On Behalf Of Bret Clark Sent: Wednesday, December 30, 2009 10:31 AM To: WISPA General List Subject: Re: [WISPA] Wimax gear I race Corvettes and would take one any day over a Porsche and while the Porsche race drivers are pretty cool, I find most Porsche off track owners to be rather snobbish...but I not sure what any of that has to do with Wimax??? 3-dB Networks wrote: Sorry I saw this on CNN and it made me laugh http://money.cnn.com/2009/12/30/autos/GM_Corvette_recall.cnnw/index.htm Daniel White 3-dB Networks http://www.3dbnetworks.com dan...@3-db.net -Original Message- From: wireless-boun...@wispa.org [mailto:wireless-boun...@wispa.org] On Behalf Of Mike Hammett Sent: Tuesday, December 29, 2009 7:33 PM To: WISPA General List Subject: Re: [WISPA] Wimax gear I'd say it'd be more like comparing a Corvette with a Porsche... in the right hands in many cases, a Corvette will beat the Porsche, but the Porsche is 35x more expensive. - Mike Hammett Intelligent Computing Solutions http://www.ics-il.com -- From: Gino Villarini mailto:g...@aeronetpr.com g...@aeronetpr.com Sent: Tuesday, December 29, 2009 8:01 PM To: WISPA General List mailto:wireless@wispa.org wireless@wispa.org Cc: WISPA General List mailto:wireless@wispa.org wireless@wispa.org Subject: Re: [WISPA] Wimax gear Tom ROTFL You can't compare a ubiquiti to a motorola 16e That's like comparing a Yugo with a Porsche Sent from my Motorola Startac... On Dec 29, 2009, at 9:00 PM, Tom DeReggi mailto:wirelessn...@rapiddsl.net wirelessn...@rapiddsl.net wrote: I will admit, Moto has made a name for itself as a company that is here for the long haul. From that perspective, its always excitign to learn about new Moto products on their way. No problem with the $350 CPE level. But, I'd argue $3500 AP is still way to high, even for 802.16e MIMO. The truth is, we all know the cost to make a MIMO device hardware is not that much more than to make legacy non-MIMO, or I should say, very insignificant compared to the market value of the higher capacity. Its all opportunity mark up. (Sure MIMO takes more processor power, more antennas, etc, but those things are likely obtainable cheaper today than their legacy components were when they were designed). I'd also argue that RF speed/price is similar to Computer CPU speed/ price concepts. 50 mbps today is equivelent in value to what 10mbps was to us 5 years ago. Therefore price points should not exceed the cost of 10mbps 5 years ago, for the WISP to get a break even on the new technology. This is from both the perspective of consumer's demand for higher speeds, as well as technology advancement. I'd pose the same arguements Ubiquiti AP $99. vs Moto AP $3500. Paying 35x more for an AP is a tough call. Dont get me wrong, I've always been in favor of higher cost AP, simply because it discourages putting them up unnecessarilly to create noise, before they are needed, and discourages harry high school kid from calling themselves a WISP with one paycheck from McDs. But I'd argued Moto would need to beat the current Canopy Advantage line AP cost in order to make a big splash in the market. Tom DeReggi RapidDSL Wireless, Inc IntAirNet- Fixed Wireless Broadband - Original Message - From: 3-dB Networks mailto:wi...@3-db.net wi...@3-db.net To: 'WISPA General List' mailto:wireless@wispa.org wireless@wispa.org Sent: Tuesday, December 29, 2009 6:39 PM Subject: Re: [WISPA] Wimax gear Everytime I see that pricing it makes me cringe... since I've seen Moto give pricing way before a product is actually set to release and its way off the mark. I hope it's right for Moto sake :-) Daniel White 3-dB Networks http://www.3dbnetworks.com dan...@3-db.net -Original Message- From: wireless-boun...@wispa.org [mailto:wireless- boun...@wispa.org] On Behalf Of Gino Villarini Sent: Tuesday, December 29, 2009 4:07 PM To: WISPA General List Subject: Re: [WISPA] Wimax gear Soon as in q1 or q2 IIRC $350~ SM $3500~ AP Specs are in the website under 320 series Sent from my Motorola Startac... On Dec 29, 2009, at 6:50 PM, Tom DeReggi mailto:wirelessn...@rapiddsl.net wirelessn...@rapiddsl.net wrote: moto Did you mean they are comming out with soon? or did you really mean they are talking about comming out with? In WISP time, there is a big difference. Yeah, it would be cool if that was comming in the near future at current Canopy level price points. But that is an if. Tom DeReggi RapidDSL Wireless, Inc IntAirNet- Fixed Wireless Broadband - Original Message - From: Gino Villarini mailto:g...@aeronetpr.com g...@aeronetpr.com To: WISPA General List mailto:wireless@wispa.org wireless@wispa.org Cc: WISPA
Re: [WISPA] Wimax gear
Its started comparing Motorola up coming Wimax 802.16e MiMO with Ubiquity MIMO Gino A. Villarini g...@aeronetpr.com Aeronet Wireless Broadband Corp. 787.273.4143 From: wireless-boun...@wispa.org [mailto:wireless-boun...@wispa.org] On Behalf Of Bret Clark Sent: Wednesday, December 30, 2009 11:31 AM To: WISPA General List Subject: Re: [WISPA] Wimax gear I race Corvettes and would take one any day over a Porsche and while the Porsche race drivers are pretty cool, I find most Porsche off track owners to be rather snobbish...but I not sure what any of that has to do with Wimax??? 3-dB Networks wrote: Sorry I saw this on CNN and it made me laugh http://money.cnn.com/2009/12/30/autos/GM_Corvette_recall.cnnw/index.htm Daniel White 3-dB Networks http://www.3dbnetworks.com dan...@3-db.net -Original Message- From: wireless-boun...@wispa.org [mailto:wireless-boun...@wispa.org] On Behalf Of Mike Hammett Sent: Tuesday, December 29, 2009 7:33 PM To: WISPA General List Subject: Re: [WISPA] Wimax gear I'd say it'd be more like comparing a Corvette with a Porsche... in the right hands in many cases, a Corvette will beat the Porsche, but the Porsche is 35x more expensive. - Mike Hammett Intelligent Computing Solutions http://www.ics-il.com -- From: Gino Villarini g...@aeronetpr.com mailto:g...@aeronetpr.com Sent: Tuesday, December 29, 2009 8:01 PM To: WISPA General List wireless@wispa.org mailto:wireless@wispa.org Cc: WISPA General List wireless@wispa.org mailto:wireless@wispa.org Subject: Re: [WISPA] Wimax gear Tom ROTFL You can't compare a ubiquiti to a motorola 16e That's like comparing a Yugo with a Porsche Sent from my Motorola Startac... On Dec 29, 2009, at 9:00 PM, Tom DeReggi wirelessn...@rapiddsl.net mailto:wirelessn...@rapiddsl.net wrote: I will admit, Moto has made a name for itself as a company that is here for the long haul. From that perspective, its always excitign to learn about new Moto products on their way. No problem with the $350 CPE level. But, I'd argue $3500 AP is still way to high, even for 802.16e MIMO. The truth is, we all know the cost to make a MIMO device hardware is not that much more than to make legacy non-MIMO, or I should say, very insignificant compared to the market value of the higher capacity. Its all opportunity mark up. (Sure MIMO takes more processor power, more antennas, etc, but those things are likely obtainable cheaper today than their legacy components were when they were designed). I'd also argue that RF speed/price is similar to Computer CPU speed/ price concepts. 50 mbps today is equivelent in value to what 10mbps was to us 5 years ago. Therefore price points should not exceed the cost of 10mbps 5 years ago, for the WISP to get a break even on the new technology. This is from both the perspective of consumer's demand for higher speeds, as well as technology advancement. I'd pose the same arguements Ubiquiti AP $99. vs Moto AP $3500. Paying 35x more for an AP is a tough call. Dont get me wrong, I've always been in favor of higher cost AP, simply because it discourages putting them up unnecessarilly to create noise, before they are needed, and discourages harry high school kid from calling themselves a WISP with one paycheck from McDs. But I'd argued Moto would need to beat the current Canopy Advantage line AP cost in order to make a big splash in the market. Tom DeReggi RapidDSL Wireless, Inc IntAirNet- Fixed Wireless Broadband - Original Message - From: 3-dB Networks wi...@3-db.net mailto:wi...@3-db.net To: 'WISPA General List' wireless@wispa.org mailto:wireless@wispa.org Sent: Tuesday, December 29, 2009 6:39 PM Subject: Re: [WISPA] Wimax
Re: [WISPA] Wimax gear
Bret, If you follow the thread, the corvette was the $89 Ubiquity AP and the Porsche is the $3,500 WiMAX AP. Someone else made the reference, not me. Anyways, the argument is that for $89 your AP is more likely to break so to speak, spend the extra money you get a higher quality product. While I love Corvettes myself, you can't argue that a Porsche is generally better engineered. Sorry that I wasn't clear Daniel White 3-dB Networks http://www.3dbnetworks.com dan...@3-db.net From: wireless-boun...@wispa.org [mailto:wireless-boun...@wispa.org] On Behalf Of Bret Clark Sent: Wednesday, December 30, 2009 8:31 AM To: WISPA General List Subject: Re: [WISPA] Wimax gear I race Corvettes and would take one any day over a Porsche and while the Porsche race drivers are pretty cool, I find most Porsche off track owners to be rather snobbish...but I not sure what any of that has to do with Wimax??? 3-dB Networks wrote: Sorry I saw this on CNN and it made me laugh http://money.cnn.com/2009/12/30/autos/GM_Corvette_recall.cnnw/index.htm Daniel White 3-dB Networks http://www.3dbnetworks.com dan...@3-db.net -Original Message- From: wireless-boun...@wispa.org [mailto:wireless-boun...@wispa.org] On Behalf Of Mike Hammett Sent: Tuesday, December 29, 2009 7:33 PM To: WISPA General List Subject: Re: [WISPA] Wimax gear I'd say it'd be more like comparing a Corvette with a Porsche... in the right hands in many cases, a Corvette will beat the Porsche, but the Porsche is 35x more expensive. - Mike Hammett Intelligent Computing Solutions http://www.ics-il.com -- From: Gino Villarini mailto:g...@aeronetpr.com g...@aeronetpr.com Sent: Tuesday, December 29, 2009 8:01 PM To: WISPA General List mailto:wireless@wispa.org wireless@wispa.org Cc: WISPA General List mailto:wireless@wispa.org wireless@wispa.org Subject: Re: [WISPA] Wimax gear Tom ROTFL You can't compare a ubiquiti to a motorola 16e That's like comparing a Yugo with a Porsche Sent from my Motorola Startac... On Dec 29, 2009, at 9:00 PM, Tom DeReggi mailto:wirelessn...@rapiddsl.net wirelessn...@rapiddsl.net wrote: I will admit, Moto has made a name for itself as a company that is here for the long haul. From that perspective, its always excitign to learn about new Moto products on their way. No problem with the $350 CPE level. But, I'd argue $3500 AP is still way to high, even for 802.16e MIMO. The truth is, we all know the cost to make a MIMO device hardware is not that much more than to make legacy non-MIMO, or I should say, very insignificant compared to the market value of the higher capacity. Its all opportunity mark up. (Sure MIMO takes more processor power, more antennas, etc, but those things are likely obtainable cheaper today than their legacy components were when they were designed). I'd also argue that RF speed/price is similar to Computer CPU speed/ price concepts. 50 mbps today is equivelent in value to what 10mbps was to us 5 years ago. Therefore price points should not exceed the cost of 10mbps 5 years ago, for the WISP to get a break even on the new technology. This is from both the perspective of consumer's demand for higher speeds, as well as technology advancement. I'd pose the same arguements Ubiquiti AP $99. vs Moto AP $3500. Paying 35x more for an AP is a tough call. Dont get me wrong, I've always been in favor of higher cost AP, simply because it discourages putting them up unnecessarilly to create noise, before they are needed, and discourages harry high school kid from calling themselves a WISP with one paycheck from McDs. But I'd argued Moto would need to beat the current Canopy Advantage line AP cost in order to make a big splash in the market. Tom DeReggi RapidDSL Wireless, Inc IntAirNet- Fixed Wireless Broadband - Original Message - From: 3-dB Networks mailto:wi...@3-db.net wi...@3-db.net To: 'WISPA General List' mailto:wireless@wispa.org wireless@wispa.org Sent: Tuesday, December 29, 2009 6:39 PM Subject: Re: [WISPA] Wimax gear Everytime I see that pricing it makes me cringe... since I've seen Moto give pricing way before a product is actually set to release and its way off the mark. I hope it's right for Moto sake :-) Daniel White 3-dB Networks http://www.3dbnetworks.com dan...@3-db.net -Original Message- From: wireless-boun...@wispa.org [mailto:wireless- boun...@wispa.org] On Behalf Of Gino Villarini Sent: Tuesday, December 29, 2009 4:07 PM To: WISPA General List Subject: Re: [WISPA] Wimax gear Soon as in q1 or q2 IIRC $350~ SM $3500~ AP Specs are in the website under 320 series Sent from my Motorola Startac... On Dec 29, 2009, at 6:50 PM, Tom DeReggi mailto:wirelessn...@rapiddsl.net wirelessn...@rapiddsl.net wrote: moto Did you mean they are comming out with soon? or did you really
Re: [WISPA] Wimax gear
Personally, I prefer my 4-door Wrangler with my custom roof rack. I can go anywhere, carry the kids and stuff, drop the top, pull my trailer with bikes and camping gear AND carry my kayaks. Try that in a Porsche or Corvette! ...the wireless equivalent? Idunno...maybe an old Freewave 900 MHz hopper? Patrick Leary Aperto Networks 813.426.4230 mobile -Original Message- From: wireless-boun...@wispa.org [mailto:wireless-boun...@wispa.org] On Behalf Of Gino Villarini Sent: Wednesday, December 30, 2009 7:25 AM To: WISPA General List Subject: Re: [WISPA] Wimax gear Funny But I would say Im very satisfied with my current BMW Gino A. Villarini g...@aeronetpr.com Aeronet Wireless Broadband Corp. 787.273.4143 -Original Message- From: wireless-boun...@wispa.org [mailto:wireless-boun...@wispa.org] On Behalf Of 3-dB Networks Sent: Wednesday, December 30, 2009 11:04 AM To: 'WISPA General List' Subject: Re: [WISPA] Wimax gear Sorry I saw this on CNN and it made me laugh http://money.cnn.com/2009/12/30/autos/GM_Corvette_recall.cnnw/index.htm Daniel White 3-dB Networks http://www.3dbnetworks.com dan...@3-db.net -Original Message- From: wireless-boun...@wispa.org [mailto:wireless-boun...@wispa.org] On Behalf Of Mike Hammett Sent: Tuesday, December 29, 2009 7:33 PM To: WISPA General List Subject: Re: [WISPA] Wimax gear I'd say it'd be more like comparing a Corvette with a Porsche... in the right hands in many cases, a Corvette will beat the Porsche, but the Porsche is 35x more expensive. - Mike Hammett Intelligent Computing Solutions http://www.ics-il.com -- From: Gino Villarini g...@aeronetpr.com Sent: Tuesday, December 29, 2009 8:01 PM To: WISPA General List wireless@wispa.org Cc: WISPA General List wireless@wispa.org Subject: Re: [WISPA] Wimax gear Tom ROTFL You can't compare a ubiquiti to a motorola 16e That's like comparing a Yugo with a Porsche Sent from my Motorola Startac... On Dec 29, 2009, at 9:00 PM, Tom DeReggi wirelessn...@rapiddsl.net wrote: I will admit, Moto has made a name for itself as a company that is here for the long haul. From that perspective, its always excitign to learn about new Moto products on their way. No problem with the $350 CPE level. But, I'd argue $3500 AP is still way to high, even for 802.16e MIMO. The truth is, we all know the cost to make a MIMO device hardware is not that much more than to make legacy non-MIMO, or I should say, very insignificant compared to the market value of the higher capacity. Its all opportunity mark up. (Sure MIMO takes more processor power, more antennas, etc, but those things are likely obtainable cheaper today than their legacy components were when they were designed). I'd also argue that RF speed/price is similar to Computer CPU speed/ price concepts. 50 mbps today is equivelent in value to what 10mbps was to us 5 years ago. Therefore price points should not exceed the cost of 10mbps 5 years ago, for the WISP to get a break even on the new technology. This is from both the perspective of consumer's demand for higher speeds, as well as technology advancement. I'd pose the same arguements Ubiquiti AP $99. vs Moto AP $3500. Paying 35x more for an AP is a tough call. Dont get me wrong, I've always been in favor of higher cost AP, simply because it discourages putting them up unnecessarilly to create noise, before they are needed, and discourages harry high school kid from calling themselves a WISP with one paycheck from McDs. But I'd argued Moto would need to beat the current Canopy Advantage line AP cost in order to make a big splash in the market. Tom DeReggi RapidDSL Wireless, Inc IntAirNet- Fixed Wireless Broadband - Original Message - From: 3-dB Networks wi...@3-db.net To: 'WISPA General List' wireless@wispa.org Sent: Tuesday, December 29, 2009 6:39 PM Subject: Re: [WISPA] Wimax gear Everytime I see that pricing it makes me cringe... since I've seen Moto give pricing way before a product is actually set to release and its way off the mark. I hope it's right for Moto sake :-) Daniel White 3-dB Networks http://www.3dbnetworks.com dan...@3-db.net -Original Message- From: wireless-boun...@wispa.org [mailto:wireless- boun...@wispa.org] On Behalf Of Gino Villarini Sent: Tuesday, December 29, 2009 4:07 PM To: WISPA General List Subject: Re: [WISPA] Wimax gear Soon as in q1 or q2 IIRC $350~ SM $3500~ AP Specs are in the website under 320 series Sent from my Motorola Startac... On Dec 29, 2009, at 6:50 PM, Tom DeReggi wirelessn...@rapiddsl.net wrote: moto Did you mean they are comming out with soon? or did you really mean they are talking about comming out with? In WISP time, there is a big difference. Yeah, it would be cool if that was comming in the near future at current Canopy level price points
Re: [WISPA] Wimax gear
A Porsche Cayenne could probably handle it, plus do about 140mph. I almost got a used one last spring, but my wife vetoed it. Had a lot of fun on the take it home overnight test drive though. :^) I'm personally going to wait for the BWM X6s to start showing up on the used market. At my current pace, I should be able to get a 2008 X6 in about, 2020 or so. Matt Larsen vistabeam.com Patrick Leary wrote: Personally, I prefer my 4-door Wrangler with my custom roof rack. I can go anywhere, carry the kids and stuff, drop the top, pull my trailer with bikes and camping gear AND carry my kayaks. Try that in a Porsche or Corvette! ...the wireless equivalent? Idunno...maybe an old Freewave 900 MHz hopper? Patrick Leary Aperto Networks 813.426.4230 mobile -Original Message- From: wireless-boun...@wispa.org [mailto:wireless-boun...@wispa.org] On Behalf Of Gino Villarini Sent: Wednesday, December 30, 2009 7:25 AM To: WISPA General List Subject: Re: [WISPA] Wimax gear Funny But I would say Im very satisfied with my current BMW Gino A. Villarini g...@aeronetpr.com Aeronet Wireless Broadband Corp. 787.273.4143 -Original Message- From: wireless-boun...@wispa.org [mailto:wireless-boun...@wispa.org] On Behalf Of 3-dB Networks Sent: Wednesday, December 30, 2009 11:04 AM To: 'WISPA General List' Subject: Re: [WISPA] Wimax gear Sorry I saw this on CNN and it made me laugh http://money.cnn.com/2009/12/30/autos/GM_Corvette_recall.cnnw/index.htm Daniel White 3-dB Networks http://www.3dbnetworks.com dan...@3-db.net -Original Message- From: wireless-boun...@wispa.org [mailto:wireless-boun...@wispa.org] On Behalf Of Mike Hammett Sent: Tuesday, December 29, 2009 7:33 PM To: WISPA General List Subject: Re: [WISPA] Wimax gear I'd say it'd be more like comparing a Corvette with a Porsche... in the right hands in many cases, a Corvette will beat the Porsche, but the Porsche is 35x more expensive. - Mike Hammett Intelligent Computing Solutions http://www.ics-il.com -- From: Gino Villarini g...@aeronetpr.com Sent: Tuesday, December 29, 2009 8:01 PM To: WISPA General List wireless@wispa.org Cc: WISPA General List wireless@wispa.org Subject: Re: [WISPA] Wimax gear Tom ROTFL You can't compare a ubiquiti to a motorola 16e That's like comparing a Yugo with a Porsche Sent from my Motorola Startac... On Dec 29, 2009, at 9:00 PM, Tom DeReggi wirelessn...@rapiddsl.net wrote: I will admit, Moto has made a name for itself as a company that is here for the long haul. From that perspective, its always excitign to learn about new Moto products on their way. No problem with the $350 CPE level. But, I'd argue $3500 AP is still way to high, even for 802.16e MIMO. The truth is, we all know the cost to make a MIMO device hardware is not that much more than to make legacy non-MIMO, or I should say, very insignificant compared to the market value of the higher capacity. Its all opportunity mark up. (Sure MIMO takes more processor power, more antennas, etc, but those things are likely obtainable cheaper today than their legacy components were when they were designed). I'd also argue that RF speed/price is similar to Computer CPU speed/ price concepts. 50 mbps today is equivelent in value to what 10mbps was to us 5 years ago. Therefore price points should not exceed the cost of 10mbps 5 years ago, for the WISP to get a break even on the new technology. This is from both the perspective of consumer's demand for higher speeds, as well as technology advancement. I'd pose the same arguements Ubiquiti AP $99. vs Moto AP $3500. Paying 35x more for an AP is a tough call. Dont get me wrong, I've always been in favor of higher cost AP, simply because it discourages putting them up unnecessarilly to create noise, before they are needed, and discourages harry high school kid from calling themselves a WISP with one paycheck from McDs. But I'd argued Moto would need to beat the current Canopy Advantage line AP cost in order to make a big splash in the market. Tom DeReggi RapidDSL Wireless, Inc IntAirNet- Fixed Wireless Broadband - Original Message - From: 3-dB Networks wi...@3-db.net To: 'WISPA General List' wireless@wispa.org Sent: Tuesday, December 29, 2009 6:39 PM Subject: Re: [WISPA] Wimax gear Everytime I see that pricing it makes me cringe... since I've seen Moto give pricing way before a product is actually set to release and its way off the mark. I hope it's right for Moto sake :-) Daniel White 3-dB Networks http://www.3dbnetworks.com dan...@3-db.net -Original Message- From: wireless-boun...@wispa.org [mailto:wireless- boun...@wispa.org] On Behalf Of Gino Villarini Sent: Tuesday, December 29, 2009 4:07 PM
Re: [WISPA] Wimax gear
Unimog. Forget speed, just get there. :) ryan On Wed, Dec 30, 2009 at 1:41 PM, Matt Larsen - Lists li...@manageisp.com wrote: A Porsche Cayenne could probably handle it, plus do about 140mph. I almost got a used one last spring, but my wife vetoed it. Had a lot of fun on the take it home overnight test drive though. :^) I'm personally going to wait for the BWM X6s to start showing up on the used market. At my current pace, I should be able to get a 2008 X6 in about, 2020 or so. Matt Larsen vistabeam.com Patrick Leary wrote: Personally, I prefer my 4-door Wrangler with my custom roof rack. I can go anywhere, carry the kids and stuff, drop the top, pull my trailer with bikes and camping gear AND carry my kayaks. Try that in a Porsche or Corvette! ...the wireless equivalent? Idunno...maybe an old Freewave 900 MHz hopper? Patrick Leary Aperto Networks 813.426.4230 mobile -Original Message- From: wireless-boun...@wispa.org [mailto:wireless-boun...@wispa.org] On Behalf Of Gino Villarini Sent: Wednesday, December 30, 2009 7:25 AM To: WISPA General List Subject: Re: [WISPA] Wimax gear Funny But I would say Im very satisfied with my current BMW Gino A. Villarini g...@aeronetpr.com Aeronet Wireless Broadband Corp. 787.273.4143 -Original Message- From: wireless-boun...@wispa.org [mailto:wireless-boun...@wispa.org] On Behalf Of 3-dB Networks Sent: Wednesday, December 30, 2009 11:04 AM To: 'WISPA General List' Subject: Re: [WISPA] Wimax gear Sorry I saw this on CNN and it made me laugh http://money.cnn.com/2009/12/30/autos/GM_Corvette_recall.cnnw/index.htm Daniel White 3-dB Networks http://www.3dbnetworks.com dan...@3-db.net -Original Message- From: wireless-boun...@wispa.org [mailto:wireless-boun...@wispa.org] On Behalf Of Mike Hammett Sent: Tuesday, December 29, 2009 7:33 PM To: WISPA General List Subject: Re: [WISPA] Wimax gear I'd say it'd be more like comparing a Corvette with a Porsche... in the right hands in many cases, a Corvette will beat the Porsche, but the Porsche is 35x more expensive. - Mike Hammett Intelligent Computing Solutions http://www.ics-il.com -- From: Gino Villarini g...@aeronetpr.com Sent: Tuesday, December 29, 2009 8:01 PM To: WISPA General List wireless@wispa.org Cc: WISPA General List wireless@wispa.org Subject: Re: [WISPA] Wimax gear Tom ROTFL You can't compare a ubiquiti to a motorola 16e That's like comparing a Yugo with a Porsche Sent from my Motorola Startac... On Dec 29, 2009, at 9:00 PM, Tom DeReggi wirelessn...@rapiddsl.net wrote: I will admit, Moto has made a name for itself as a company that is here for the long haul. From that perspective, its always excitign to learn about new Moto products on their way. No problem with the $350 CPE level. But, I'd argue $3500 AP is still way to high, even for 802.16e MIMO. The truth is, we all know the cost to make a MIMO device hardware is not that much more than to make legacy non-MIMO, or I should say, very insignificant compared to the market value of the higher capacity. Its all opportunity mark up. (Sure MIMO takes more processor power, more antennas, etc, but those things are likely obtainable cheaper today than their legacy components were when they were designed). I'd also argue that RF speed/price is similar to Computer CPU speed/ price concepts. 50 mbps today is equivelent in value to what 10mbps was to us 5 years ago. Therefore price points should not exceed the cost of 10mbps 5 years ago, for the WISP to get a break even on the new technology. This is from both the perspective of consumer's demand for higher speeds, as well as technology advancement. I'd pose the same arguements Ubiquiti AP $99. vs Moto AP $3500. Paying 35x more for an AP is a tough call. Dont get me wrong, I've always been in favor of higher cost AP, simply because it discourages putting them up unnecessarilly to create noise, before they are needed, and discourages harry high school kid from calling themselves a WISP with one paycheck from McDs. But I'd argued Moto would need to beat the current Canopy Advantage line AP cost in order to make a big splash in the market. Tom DeReggi RapidDSL Wireless, Inc IntAirNet- Fixed Wireless Broadband - Original Message - From: 3-dB Networks wi...@3-db.net To: 'WISPA General List' wireless@wispa.org Sent: Tuesday, December 29, 2009 6:39 PM Subject: Re: [WISPA] Wimax gear Everytime I see that pricing it makes me cringe... since I've seen Moto give pricing way before a product is actually set to release and its way off the mark. I hope it's right for Moto sake :-) Daniel White 3-dB Networks http://www.3dbnetworks.com dan...@3-db.net -Original Message- From: wireless-boun...@wispa.org [mailto:wireless- boun...@wispa.org] On Behalf Of Gino
Re: [WISPA] Wimax gear
Good point Matt, except for dropping the topand 3x the money! But as a true ragtop lover (I've had 5 over the years), it is hard for me to not have one. Gotta get my vitamin D somehow. Patrick Leary Aperto Networks 813.426.4230 mobile -Original Message- From: wireless-boun...@wispa.org [mailto:wireless-boun...@wispa.org] On Behalf Of Matt Larsen - Lists Sent: Wednesday, December 30, 2009 1:42 PM To: WISPA General List Subject: Re: [WISPA] Wimax gear A Porsche Cayenne could probably handle it, plus do about 140mph. I almost got a used one last spring, but my wife vetoed it. Had a lot of fun on the take it home overnight test drive though. :^) I'm personally going to wait for the BWM X6s to start showing up on the used market. At my current pace, I should be able to get a 2008 X6 in about, 2020 or so. Matt Larsen vistabeam.com Patrick Leary wrote: Personally, I prefer my 4-door Wrangler with my custom roof rack. I can go anywhere, carry the kids and stuff, drop the top, pull my trailer with bikes and camping gear AND carry my kayaks. Try that in a Porsche or Corvette! ...the wireless equivalent? Idunno...maybe an old Freewave 900 MHz hopper? Patrick Leary Aperto Networks 813.426.4230 mobile -Original Message- From: wireless-boun...@wispa.org [mailto:wireless-boun...@wispa.org] On Behalf Of Gino Villarini Sent: Wednesday, December 30, 2009 7:25 AM To: WISPA General List Subject: Re: [WISPA] Wimax gear Funny But I would say Im very satisfied with my current BMW Gino A. Villarini g...@aeronetpr.com Aeronet Wireless Broadband Corp. 787.273.4143 -Original Message- From: wireless-boun...@wispa.org [mailto:wireless-boun...@wispa.org] On Behalf Of 3-dB Networks Sent: Wednesday, December 30, 2009 11:04 AM To: 'WISPA General List' Subject: Re: [WISPA] Wimax gear Sorry I saw this on CNN and it made me laugh http://money.cnn.com/2009/12/30/autos/GM_Corvette_recall.cnnw/index.ht m Daniel White 3-dB Networks http://www.3dbnetworks.com dan...@3-db.net -Original Message- From: wireless-boun...@wispa.org [mailto:wireless-boun...@wispa.org] On Behalf Of Mike Hammett Sent: Tuesday, December 29, 2009 7:33 PM To: WISPA General List Subject: Re: [WISPA] Wimax gear I'd say it'd be more like comparing a Corvette with a Porsche... in the right hands in many cases, a Corvette will beat the Porsche, but the Porsche is 35x more expensive. - Mike Hammett Intelligent Computing Solutions http://www.ics-il.com -- From: Gino Villarini g...@aeronetpr.com Sent: Tuesday, December 29, 2009 8:01 PM To: WISPA General List wireless@wispa.org Cc: WISPA General List wireless@wispa.org Subject: Re: [WISPA] Wimax gear Tom ROTFL You can't compare a ubiquiti to a motorola 16e That's like comparing a Yugo with a Porsche Sent from my Motorola Startac... On Dec 29, 2009, at 9:00 PM, Tom DeReggi wirelessn...@rapiddsl.net wrote: I will admit, Moto has made a name for itself as a company that is here for the long haul. From that perspective, its always excitign to learn about new Moto products on their way. No problem with the $350 CPE level. But, I'd argue $3500 AP is still way to high, even for 802.16e MIMO. The truth is, we all know the cost to make a MIMO device hardware is not that much more than to make legacy non-MIMO, or I should say, very insignificant compared to the market value of the higher capacity. Its all opportunity mark up. (Sure MIMO takes more processor power, more antennas, etc, but those things are likely obtainable cheaper today than their legacy components were when they were designed). I'd also argue that RF speed/price is similar to Computer CPU speed/ price concepts. 50 mbps today is equivelent in value to what 10mbps was to us 5 years ago. Therefore price points should not exceed the cost of 10mbps 5 years ago, for the WISP to get a break even on the new technology. This is from both the perspective of consumer's demand for higher speeds, as well as technology advancement. I'd pose the same arguements Ubiquiti AP $99. vs Moto AP $3500. Paying 35x more for an AP is a tough call. Dont get me wrong, I've always been in favor of higher cost AP, simply because it discourages putting them up unnecessarilly to create noise, before they are needed, and discourages harry high school kid from calling themselves a WISP with one paycheck from McDs. But I'd argued Moto would need to beat the current Canopy Advantage line AP cost in order to make a big splash in the market. Tom DeReggi RapidDSL Wireless, Inc IntAirNet- Fixed Wireless Broadband - Original Message - From: 3-dB Networks wi...@3-db.net To: 'WISPA General List' wireless@wispa.org Sent: Tuesday, December 29, 2009 6:39 PM Subject
Re: [WISPA] Wimax gear
For that i have my Nissan Pathfinder Sent from my Motorola Startac... On Dec 30, 2009, at 5:35 PM, Patrick Leary ple...@apertonet.com wrote: Personally, I prefer my 4-door Wrangler with my custom roof rack. I can go anywhere, carry the kids and stuff, drop the top, pull my trailer with bikes and camping gear AND carry my kayaks. Try that in a Porsche or Corvette! ...the wireless equivalent? Idunno...maybe an old Freewave 900 MHz hopper? Patrick Leary Aperto Networks 813.426.4230 mobile -Original Message- From: wireless-boun...@wispa.org [mailto:wireless-boun...@wispa.org] On Behalf Of Gino Villarini Sent: Wednesday, December 30, 2009 7:25 AM To: WISPA General List Subject: Re: [WISPA] Wimax gear Funny But I would say Im very satisfied with my current BMW Gino A. Villarini g...@aeronetpr.com Aeronet Wireless Broadband Corp. 787.273.4143 -Original Message- From: wireless-boun...@wispa.org [mailto:wireless-boun...@wispa.org] On Behalf Of 3-dB Networks Sent: Wednesday, December 30, 2009 11:04 AM To: 'WISPA General List' Subject: Re: [WISPA] Wimax gear Sorry I saw this on CNN and it made me laugh http://money.cnn.com/2009/12/30/autos/GM_Corvette_recall.cnnw/ index.htm Daniel White 3-dB Networks http://www.3dbnetworks.com dan...@3-db.net -Original Message- From: wireless-boun...@wispa.org [mailto:wireless-boun...@wispa.org] On Behalf Of Mike Hammett Sent: Tuesday, December 29, 2009 7:33 PM To: WISPA General List Subject: Re: [WISPA] Wimax gear I'd say it'd be more like comparing a Corvette with a Porsche... in the right hands in many cases, a Corvette will beat the Porsche, but the Porsche is 35x more expensive. - Mike Hammett Intelligent Computing Solutions http://www.ics-il.com -- From: Gino Villarini g...@aeronetpr.com Sent: Tuesday, December 29, 2009 8:01 PM To: WISPA General List wireless@wispa.org Cc: WISPA General List wireless@wispa.org Subject: Re: [WISPA] Wimax gear Tom ROTFL You can't compare a ubiquiti to a motorola 16e That's like comparing a Yugo with a Porsche Sent from my Motorola Startac... On Dec 29, 2009, at 9:00 PM, Tom DeReggi wirelessn...@rapiddsl.net wrote: I will admit, Moto has made a name for itself as a company that is here for the long haul. From that perspective, its always excitign to learn about new Moto products on their way. No problem with the $350 CPE level. But, I'd argue $3500 AP is still way to high, even for 802.16e MIMO. The truth is, we all know the cost to make a MIMO device hardware is not that much more than to make legacy non-MIMO, or I should say, very insignificant compared to the market value of the higher capacity. Its all opportunity mark up. (Sure MIMO takes more processor power, more antennas, etc, but those things are likely obtainable cheaper today than their legacy components were when they were designed). I'd also argue that RF speed/price is similar to Computer CPU speed/ price concepts. 50 mbps today is equivelent in value to what 10mbps was to us 5 years ago. Therefore price points should not exceed the cost of 10mbps 5 years ago, for the WISP to get a break even on the new technology. This is from both the perspective of consumer's demand for higher speeds, as well as technology advancement. I'd pose the same arguements Ubiquiti AP $99. vs Moto AP $3500. Paying 35x more for an AP is a tough call. Dont get me wrong, I've always been in favor of higher cost AP, simply because it discourages putting them up unnecessarilly to create noise, before they are needed, and discourages harry high school kid from calling themselves a WISP with one paycheck from McDs. But I'd argued Moto would need to beat the current Canopy Advantage line AP cost in order to make a big splash in the market. Tom DeReggi RapidDSL Wireless, Inc IntAirNet- Fixed Wireless Broadband - Original Message - From: 3-dB Networks wi...@3-db.net To: 'WISPA General List' wireless@wispa.org Sent: Tuesday, December 29, 2009 6:39 PM Subject: Re: [WISPA] Wimax gear Everytime I see that pricing it makes me cringe... since I've seen Moto give pricing way before a product is actually set to release and its way off the mark. I hope it's right for Moto sake :-) Daniel White 3-dB Networks http://www.3dbnetworks.com dan...@3-db.net -Original Message- From: wireless-boun...@wispa.org [mailto:wireless- boun...@wispa.org] On Behalf Of Gino Villarini Sent: Tuesday, December 29, 2009 4:07 PM To: WISPA General List Subject: Re: [WISPA] Wimax gear Soon as in q1 or q2 IIRC $350~ SM $3500~ AP Specs are in the website under 320 series Sent from my Motorola Startac... On Dec 29, 2009, at 6:50 PM, Tom DeReggi wirelessn...@rapiddsl.net wrote: moto Did you mean they are comming out with soon? or did you really
Re: [WISPA] Wimax gear
Are we still talking about WiMax? Me thinks this thread hath strayed. -Original Message- From: wireless-boun...@wispa.org [mailto:wireless-boun...@wispa.org] On Behalf Of Patrick Leary Sent: Wednesday, December 30, 2009 1:47 PM To: WISPA General List Subject: Re: [WISPA] Wimax gear Good point Matt, except for dropping the topand 3x the money! But as a true ragtop lover (I've had 5 over the years), it is hard for me to not have one. Gotta get my vitamin D somehow. Patrick Leary Aperto Networks 813.426.4230 mobile -Original Message- From: wireless-boun...@wispa.org [mailto:wireless-boun...@wispa.org] On Behalf Of Matt Larsen - Lists Sent: Wednesday, December 30, 2009 1:42 PM To: WISPA General List Subject: Re: [WISPA] Wimax gear A Porsche Cayenne could probably handle it, plus do about 140mph. I almost got a used one last spring, but my wife vetoed it. Had a lot of fun on the take it home overnight test drive though. :^) I'm personally going to wait for the BWM X6s to start showing up on the used market. At my current pace, I should be able to get a 2008 X6 in about, 2020 or so. Matt Larsen vistabeam.com Patrick Leary wrote: Personally, I prefer my 4-door Wrangler with my custom roof rack. I can go anywhere, carry the kids and stuff, drop the top, pull my trailer with bikes and camping gear AND carry my kayaks. Try that in a Porsche or Corvette! ...the wireless equivalent? Idunno...maybe an old Freewave 900 MHz hopper? Patrick Leary Aperto Networks 813.426.4230 mobile -Original Message- From: wireless-boun...@wispa.org [mailto:wireless-boun...@wispa.org] On Behalf Of Gino Villarini Sent: Wednesday, December 30, 2009 7:25 AM To: WISPA General List Subject: Re: [WISPA] Wimax gear Funny But I would say Im very satisfied with my current BMW Gino A. Villarini g...@aeronetpr.com Aeronet Wireless Broadband Corp. 787.273.4143 -Original Message- From: wireless-boun...@wispa.org [mailto:wireless-boun...@wispa.org] On Behalf Of 3-dB Networks Sent: Wednesday, December 30, 2009 11:04 AM To: 'WISPA General List' Subject: Re: [WISPA] Wimax gear Sorry I saw this on CNN and it made me laugh http://money.cnn.com/2009/12/30/autos/GM_Corvette_recall.cnnw/index.ht m Daniel White 3-dB Networks http://www.3dbnetworks.com dan...@3-db.net -Original Message- From: wireless-boun...@wispa.org [mailto:wireless-boun...@wispa.org] On Behalf Of Mike Hammett Sent: Tuesday, December 29, 2009 7:33 PM To: WISPA General List Subject: Re: [WISPA] Wimax gear I'd say it'd be more like comparing a Corvette with a Porsche... in the right hands in many cases, a Corvette will beat the Porsche, but the Porsche is 35x more expensive. - Mike Hammett Intelligent Computing Solutions http://www.ics-il.com -- From: Gino Villarini g...@aeronetpr.com Sent: Tuesday, December 29, 2009 8:01 PM To: WISPA General List wireless@wispa.org Cc: WISPA General List wireless@wispa.org Subject: Re: [WISPA] Wimax gear Tom ROTFL You can't compare a ubiquiti to a motorola 16e That's like comparing a Yugo with a Porsche Sent from my Motorola Startac... On Dec 29, 2009, at 9:00 PM, Tom DeReggi wirelessn...@rapiddsl.net wrote: I will admit, Moto has made a name for itself as a company that is here for the long haul. From that perspective, its always excitign to learn about new Moto products on their way. No problem with the $350 CPE level. But, I'd argue $3500 AP is still way to high, even for 802.16e MIMO. The truth is, we all know the cost to make a MIMO device hardware is not that much more than to make legacy non-MIMO, or I should say, very insignificant compared to the market value of the higher capacity. Its all opportunity mark up. (Sure MIMO takes more processor power, more antennas, etc, but those things are likely obtainable cheaper today than their legacy components were when they were designed). I'd also argue that RF speed/price is similar to Computer CPU speed/ price concepts. 50 mbps today is equivelent in value to what 10mbps was to us 5 years ago. Therefore price points should not exceed the cost of 10mbps 5 years ago, for the WISP to get a break even on the new technology. This is from both the perspective of consumer's demand for higher speeds, as well as technology advancement. I'd pose the same arguements Ubiquiti AP $99. vs Moto AP $3500. Paying 35x more for an AP is a tough call. Dont get me wrong, I've always been in favor of higher cost AP, simply because it discourages putting them up unnecessarilly to create noise, before they are needed, and discourages harry high school kid from calling themselves a WISP with one paycheck from McDs. But I'd argued Moto would need to beat the current Canopy Advantage line AP cost in order to make a big splash in the market. Tom DeReggi
Re: [WISPA] Wimax gear
I was close to buying a GL550 the other day. Dave Ramsey drives one, so it must be fiscally ok, right? Brad -Original Message- From: wireless-boun...@wispa.org [mailto:wireless-boun...@wispa.org] On Behalf Of Matt Larsen - Lists Sent: Wednesday, December 30, 2009 3:42 PM To: WISPA General List Subject: Re: [WISPA] Wimax gear A Porsche Cayenne could probably handle it, plus do about 140mph. I almost got a used one last spring, but my wife vetoed it. Had a lot of fun on the take it home overnight test drive though. :^) I'm personally going to wait for the BWM X6s to start showing up on the used market. At my current pace, I should be able to get a 2008 X6 in about, 2020 or so. Matt Larsen vistabeam.com Patrick Leary wrote: Personally, I prefer my 4-door Wrangler with my custom roof rack. I can go anywhere, carry the kids and stuff, drop the top, pull my trailer with bikes and camping gear AND carry my kayaks. Try that in a Porsche or Corvette! ...the wireless equivalent? Idunno...maybe an old Freewave 900 MHz hopper? Patrick Leary Aperto Networks 813.426.4230 mobile -Original Message- From: wireless-boun...@wispa.org [mailto:wireless-boun...@wispa.org] On Behalf Of Gino Villarini Sent: Wednesday, December 30, 2009 7:25 AM To: WISPA General List Subject: Re: [WISPA] Wimax gear Funny But I would say Im very satisfied with my current BMW Gino A. Villarini g...@aeronetpr.com Aeronet Wireless Broadband Corp. 787.273.4143 -Original Message- From: wireless-boun...@wispa.org [mailto:wireless-boun...@wispa.org] On Behalf Of 3-dB Networks Sent: Wednesday, December 30, 2009 11:04 AM To: 'WISPA General List' Subject: Re: [WISPA] Wimax gear Sorry I saw this on CNN and it made me laugh http://money.cnn.com/2009/12/30/autos/GM_Corvette_recall.cnnw/index.htm Daniel White 3-dB Networks http://www.3dbnetworks.com dan...@3-db.net -Original Message- From: wireless-boun...@wispa.org [mailto:wireless-boun...@wispa.org] On Behalf Of Mike Hammett Sent: Tuesday, December 29, 2009 7:33 PM To: WISPA General List Subject: Re: [WISPA] Wimax gear I'd say it'd be more like comparing a Corvette with a Porsche... in the right hands in many cases, a Corvette will beat the Porsche, but the Porsche is 35x more expensive. - Mike Hammett Intelligent Computing Solutions http://www.ics-il.com -- From: Gino Villarini g...@aeronetpr.com Sent: Tuesday, December 29, 2009 8:01 PM To: WISPA General List wireless@wispa.org Cc: WISPA General List wireless@wispa.org Subject: Re: [WISPA] Wimax gear Tom ROTFL You can't compare a ubiquiti to a motorola 16e That's like comparing a Yugo with a Porsche Sent from my Motorola Startac... On Dec 29, 2009, at 9:00 PM, Tom DeReggi wirelessn...@rapiddsl.net wrote: I will admit, Moto has made a name for itself as a company that is here for the long haul. From that perspective, its always excitign to learn about new Moto products on their way. No problem with the $350 CPE level. But, I'd argue $3500 AP is still way to high, even for 802.16e MIMO. The truth is, we all know the cost to make a MIMO device hardware is not that much more than to make legacy non-MIMO, or I should say, very insignificant compared to the market value of the higher capacity. Its all opportunity mark up. (Sure MIMO takes more processor power, more antennas, etc, but those things are likely obtainable cheaper today than their legacy components were when they were designed). I'd also argue that RF speed/price is similar to Computer CPU speed/ price concepts. 50 mbps today is equivelent in value to what 10mbps was to us 5 years ago. Therefore price points should not exceed the cost of 10mbps 5 years ago, for the WISP to get a break even on the new technology. This is from both the perspective of consumer's demand for higher speeds, as well as technology advancement. I'd pose the same arguements Ubiquiti AP $99. vs Moto AP $3500. Paying 35x more for an AP is a tough call. Dont get me wrong, I've always been in favor of higher cost AP, simply because it discourages putting them up unnecessarilly to create noise, before they are needed, and discourages harry high school kid from calling themselves a WISP with one paycheck from McDs. But I'd argued Moto would need to beat the current Canopy Advantage line AP cost in order to make a big splash in the market. Tom DeReggi RapidDSL Wireless, Inc IntAirNet- Fixed Wireless Broadband - Original Message - From: 3-dB Networks wi...@3-db.net To: 'WISPA General List' wireless@wispa.org Sent: Tuesday, December 29, 2009 6:39 PM Subject: Re: [WISPA] Wimax gear Everytime I see that pricing it makes me cringe... since I've seen Moto give pricing way before a product
Re: [WISPA] Wimax gear
Hey, we are all winding down from a long year... Patrick Leary Aperto Networks 813.426.4230 mobile -Original Message- From: wireless-boun...@wispa.org [mailto:wireless-boun...@wispa.org] On Behalf Of Jerry Richardson Sent: Wednesday, December 30, 2009 1:48 PM To: WISPA General List Subject: Re: [WISPA] Wimax gear Are we still talking about WiMax? Me thinks this thread hath strayed. -Original Message- From: wireless-boun...@wispa.org [mailto:wireless-boun...@wispa.org] On Behalf Of Patrick Leary Sent: Wednesday, December 30, 2009 1:47 PM To: WISPA General List Subject: Re: [WISPA] Wimax gear Good point Matt, except for dropping the topand 3x the money! But as a true ragtop lover (I've had 5 over the years), it is hard for me to not have one. Gotta get my vitamin D somehow. Patrick Leary Aperto Networks 813.426.4230 mobile -Original Message- From: wireless-boun...@wispa.org [mailto:wireless-boun...@wispa.org] On Behalf Of Matt Larsen - Lists Sent: Wednesday, December 30, 2009 1:42 PM To: WISPA General List Subject: Re: [WISPA] Wimax gear A Porsche Cayenne could probably handle it, plus do about 140mph. I almost got a used one last spring, but my wife vetoed it. Had a lot of fun on the take it home overnight test drive though. :^) I'm personally going to wait for the BWM X6s to start showing up on the used market. At my current pace, I should be able to get a 2008 X6 in about, 2020 or so. Matt Larsen vistabeam.com Patrick Leary wrote: Personally, I prefer my 4-door Wrangler with my custom roof rack. I can go anywhere, carry the kids and stuff, drop the top, pull my trailer with bikes and camping gear AND carry my kayaks. Try that in a Porsche or Corvette! ...the wireless equivalent? Idunno...maybe an old Freewave 900 MHz hopper? Patrick Leary Aperto Networks 813.426.4230 mobile -Original Message- From: wireless-boun...@wispa.org [mailto:wireless-boun...@wispa.org] On Behalf Of Gino Villarini Sent: Wednesday, December 30, 2009 7:25 AM To: WISPA General List Subject: Re: [WISPA] Wimax gear Funny But I would say Im very satisfied with my current BMW Gino A. Villarini g...@aeronetpr.com Aeronet Wireless Broadband Corp. 787.273.4143 -Original Message- From: wireless-boun...@wispa.org [mailto:wireless-boun...@wispa.org] On Behalf Of 3-dB Networks Sent: Wednesday, December 30, 2009 11:04 AM To: 'WISPA General List' Subject: Re: [WISPA] Wimax gear Sorry I saw this on CNN and it made me laugh http://money.cnn.com/2009/12/30/autos/GM_Corvette_recall.cnnw/index.ht m Daniel White 3-dB Networks http://www.3dbnetworks.com dan...@3-db.net -Original Message- From: wireless-boun...@wispa.org [mailto:wireless-boun...@wispa.org] On Behalf Of Mike Hammett Sent: Tuesday, December 29, 2009 7:33 PM To: WISPA General List Subject: Re: [WISPA] Wimax gear I'd say it'd be more like comparing a Corvette with a Porsche... in the right hands in many cases, a Corvette will beat the Porsche, but the Porsche is 35x more expensive. - Mike Hammett Intelligent Computing Solutions http://www.ics-il.com -- From: Gino Villarini g...@aeronetpr.com Sent: Tuesday, December 29, 2009 8:01 PM To: WISPA General List wireless@wispa.org Cc: WISPA General List wireless@wispa.org Subject: Re: [WISPA] Wimax gear Tom ROTFL You can't compare a ubiquiti to a motorola 16e That's like comparing a Yugo with a Porsche Sent from my Motorola Startac... On Dec 29, 2009, at 9:00 PM, Tom DeReggi wirelessn...@rapiddsl.net wrote: I will admit, Moto has made a name for itself as a company that is here for the long haul. From that perspective, its always excitign to learn about new Moto products on their way. No problem with the $350 CPE level. But, I'd argue $3500 AP is still way to high, even for 802.16e MIMO. The truth is, we all know the cost to make a MIMO device hardware is not that much more than to make legacy non-MIMO, or I should say, very insignificant compared to the market value of the higher capacity. Its all opportunity mark up. (Sure MIMO takes more processor power, more antennas, etc, but those things are likely obtainable cheaper today than their legacy components were when they were designed). I'd also argue that RF speed/price is similar to Computer CPU speed/ price concepts. 50 mbps today is equivelent in value to what 10mbps was to us 5 years ago. Therefore price points should not exceed the cost of 10mbps 5 years ago, for the WISP to get a break even on the new technology. This is from both the perspective of consumer's demand for higher speeds, as well as technology advancement. I'd pose the same arguements Ubiquiti AP $99. vs Moto AP $3500. Paying 35x more for an AP is a tough call. Dont get me wrong, I've always been in favor of higher cost AP, simply
Re: [WISPA] Wimax gear
funny I figured most people on this list would prefer American Made me I'll take my Ford Expedition and my Harley for fun - Original Message - From: Gino Villarini g...@aeronetpr.com To: WISPA General List wireless@wispa.org Cc: WISPA General List wireless@wispa.org Sent: Wednesday, December 30, 2009 2:47 PM Subject: Re: [WISPA] Wimax gear For that i have my Nissan Pathfinder Sent from my Motorola Startac... On Dec 30, 2009, at 5:35 PM, Patrick Leary ple...@apertonet.com wrote: Personally, I prefer my 4-door Wrangler with my custom roof rack. I can go anywhere, carry the kids and stuff, drop the top, pull my trailer with bikes and camping gear AND carry my kayaks. Try that in a Porsche or Corvette! ...the wireless equivalent? Idunno...maybe an old Freewave 900 MHz hopper? Patrick Leary Aperto Networks 813.426.4230 mobile -Original Message- From: wireless-boun...@wispa.org [mailto:wireless-boun...@wispa.org] On Behalf Of Gino Villarini Sent: Wednesday, December 30, 2009 7:25 AM To: WISPA General List Subject: Re: [WISPA] Wimax gear Funny But I would say Im very satisfied with my current BMW Gino A. Villarini g...@aeronetpr.com Aeronet Wireless Broadband Corp. 787.273.4143 -Original Message- From: wireless-boun...@wispa.org [mailto:wireless-boun...@wispa.org] On Behalf Of 3-dB Networks Sent: Wednesday, December 30, 2009 11:04 AM To: 'WISPA General List' Subject: Re: [WISPA] Wimax gear Sorry I saw this on CNN and it made me laugh http://money.cnn.com/2009/12/30/autos/GM_Corvette_recall.cnnw/ index.htm Daniel White 3-dB Networks http://www.3dbnetworks.com dan...@3-db.net -Original Message- From: wireless-boun...@wispa.org [mailto:wireless-boun...@wispa.org] On Behalf Of Mike Hammett Sent: Tuesday, December 29, 2009 7:33 PM To: WISPA General List Subject: Re: [WISPA] Wimax gear I'd say it'd be more like comparing a Corvette with a Porsche... in the right hands in many cases, a Corvette will beat the Porsche, but the Porsche is 35x more expensive. - Mike Hammett Intelligent Computing Solutions http://www.ics-il.com -- From: Gino Villarini g...@aeronetpr.com Sent: Tuesday, December 29, 2009 8:01 PM To: WISPA General List wireless@wispa.org Cc: WISPA General List wireless@wispa.org Subject: Re: [WISPA] Wimax gear Tom ROTFL You can't compare a ubiquiti to a motorola 16e That's like comparing a Yugo with a Porsche Sent from my Motorola Startac... On Dec 29, 2009, at 9:00 PM, Tom DeReggi wirelessn...@rapiddsl.net wrote: I will admit, Moto has made a name for itself as a company that is here for the long haul. From that perspective, its always excitign to learn about new Moto products on their way. No problem with the $350 CPE level. But, I'd argue $3500 AP is still way to high, even for 802.16e MIMO. The truth is, we all know the cost to make a MIMO device hardware is not that much more than to make legacy non-MIMO, or I should say, very insignificant compared to the market value of the higher capacity. Its all opportunity mark up. (Sure MIMO takes more processor power, more antennas, etc, but those things are likely obtainable cheaper today than their legacy components were when they were designed). I'd also argue that RF speed/price is similar to Computer CPU speed/ price concepts. 50 mbps today is equivelent in value to what 10mbps was to us 5 years ago. Therefore price points should not exceed the cost of 10mbps 5 years ago, for the WISP to get a break even on the new technology. This is from both the perspective of consumer's demand for higher speeds, as well as technology advancement. I'd pose the same arguements Ubiquiti AP $99. vs Moto AP $3500. Paying 35x more for an AP is a tough call. Dont get me wrong, I've always been in favor of higher cost AP, simply because it discourages putting them up unnecessarilly to create noise, before they are needed, and discourages harry high school kid from calling themselves a WISP with one paycheck from McDs. But I'd argued Moto would need to beat the current Canopy Advantage line AP cost in order to make a big splash in the market. Tom DeReggi RapidDSL Wireless, Inc IntAirNet- Fixed Wireless Broadband - Original Message - From: 3-dB Networks wi...@3-db.net To: 'WISPA General List' wireless@wispa.org Sent: Tuesday, December 29, 2009 6:39 PM Subject: Re: [WISPA] Wimax gear Everytime I see that pricing it makes me cringe... since I've seen Moto give pricing way before a product is actually set to release and its way off the mark. I hope it's right for Moto sake :-) Daniel White 3-dB Networks http://www.3dbnetworks.com dan...@3-db.net -Original Message- From: wireless-boun...@wispa.org [mailto:wireless- boun...@wispa.org] On Behalf Of Gino Villarini Sent: Tuesday
Re: [WISPA] Wimax gear
no worries. -Original Message- From: wireless-boun...@wispa.org [mailto:wireless-boun...@wispa.org] On Behalf Of Patrick Leary Sent: Wednesday, December 30, 2009 1:57 PM To: WISPA General List Subject: Re: [WISPA] Wimax gear Hey, we are all winding down from a long year... Patrick Leary Aperto Networks 813.426.4230 mobile -Original Message- From: wireless-boun...@wispa.org [mailto:wireless-boun...@wispa.org] On Behalf Of Jerry Richardson Sent: Wednesday, December 30, 2009 1:48 PM To: WISPA General List Subject: Re: [WISPA] Wimax gear Are we still talking about WiMax? Me thinks this thread hath strayed. -Original Message- From: wireless-boun...@wispa.org [mailto:wireless-boun...@wispa.org] On Behalf Of Patrick Leary Sent: Wednesday, December 30, 2009 1:47 PM To: WISPA General List Subject: Re: [WISPA] Wimax gear Good point Matt, except for dropping the topand 3x the money! But as a true ragtop lover (I've had 5 over the years), it is hard for me to not have one. Gotta get my vitamin D somehow. Patrick Leary Aperto Networks 813.426.4230 mobile -Original Message- From: wireless-boun...@wispa.org [mailto:wireless-boun...@wispa.org] On Behalf Of Matt Larsen - Lists Sent: Wednesday, December 30, 2009 1:42 PM To: WISPA General List Subject: Re: [WISPA] Wimax gear A Porsche Cayenne could probably handle it, plus do about 140mph. I almost got a used one last spring, but my wife vetoed it. Had a lot of fun on the take it home overnight test drive though. :^) I'm personally going to wait for the BWM X6s to start showing up on the used market. At my current pace, I should be able to get a 2008 X6 in about, 2020 or so. Matt Larsen vistabeam.com Patrick Leary wrote: Personally, I prefer my 4-door Wrangler with my custom roof rack. I can go anywhere, carry the kids and stuff, drop the top, pull my trailer with bikes and camping gear AND carry my kayaks. Try that in a Porsche or Corvette! ...the wireless equivalent? Idunno...maybe an old Freewave 900 MHz hopper? Patrick Leary Aperto Networks 813.426.4230 mobile -Original Message- From: wireless-boun...@wispa.org [mailto:wireless-boun...@wispa.org] On Behalf Of Gino Villarini Sent: Wednesday, December 30, 2009 7:25 AM To: WISPA General List Subject: Re: [WISPA] Wimax gear Funny But I would say Im very satisfied with my current BMW Gino A. Villarini g...@aeronetpr.com Aeronet Wireless Broadband Corp. 787.273.4143 -Original Message- From: wireless-boun...@wispa.org [mailto:wireless-boun...@wispa.org] On Behalf Of 3-dB Networks Sent: Wednesday, December 30, 2009 11:04 AM To: 'WISPA General List' Subject: Re: [WISPA] Wimax gear Sorry I saw this on CNN and it made me laugh http://money.cnn.com/2009/12/30/autos/GM_Corvette_recall.cnnw/index.ht m Daniel White 3-dB Networks http://www.3dbnetworks.com dan...@3-db.net -Original Message- From: wireless-boun...@wispa.org [mailto:wireless-boun...@wispa.org] On Behalf Of Mike Hammett Sent: Tuesday, December 29, 2009 7:33 PM To: WISPA General List Subject: Re: [WISPA] Wimax gear I'd say it'd be more like comparing a Corvette with a Porsche... in the right hands in many cases, a Corvette will beat the Porsche, but the Porsche is 35x more expensive. - Mike Hammett Intelligent Computing Solutions http://www.ics-il.com -- From: Gino Villarini g...@aeronetpr.com Sent: Tuesday, December 29, 2009 8:01 PM To: WISPA General List wireless@wispa.org Cc: WISPA General List wireless@wispa.org Subject: Re: [WISPA] Wimax gear Tom ROTFL You can't compare a ubiquiti to a motorola 16e That's like comparing a Yugo with a Porsche Sent from my Motorola Startac... On Dec 29, 2009, at 9:00 PM, Tom DeReggi wirelessn...@rapiddsl.net wrote: I will admit, Moto has made a name for itself as a company that is here for the long haul. From that perspective, its always excitign to learn about new Moto products on their way. No problem with the $350 CPE level. But, I'd argue $3500 AP is still way to high, even for 802.16e MIMO. The truth is, we all know the cost to make a MIMO device hardware is not that much more than to make legacy non-MIMO, or I should say, very insignificant compared to the market value of the higher capacity. Its all opportunity mark up. (Sure MIMO takes more processor power, more antennas, etc, but those things are likely obtainable cheaper today than their legacy components were when they were designed). I'd also argue that RF speed/price is similar to Computer CPU speed/ price concepts. 50 mbps today is equivelent in value to what 10mbps was to us 5 years ago. Therefore price points should not exceed the cost of 10mbps 5 years ago, for the WISP to get a break even on the new technology. This is from both the perspective of consumer's demand for higher speeds, as well
Re: [WISPA] Wimax gear
the equivalent would a x86 based mikrotik with 9 mini-pci slots (3 each for 2.4, 3.65, and 5.8), 4 gigbit wired interfaces, a gbic port, and running the dude On Wed, Dec 30, 2009 at 3:29 PM, Patrick Leary ple...@apertonet.com wrote: Personally, I prefer my 4-door Wrangler with my custom roof rack. I can go anywhere, carry the kids and stuff, drop the top, pull my trailer with bikes and camping gear AND carry my kayaks. Try that in a Porsche or Corvette! ...the wireless equivalent? Idunno...maybe an old Freewave 900 MHz hopper? Patrick Leary Aperto Networks 813.426.4230 mobile -Original Message- From: wireless-boun...@wispa.org [mailto:wireless-boun...@wispa.org] On Behalf Of Gino Villarini Sent: Wednesday, December 30, 2009 7:25 AM To: WISPA General List Subject: Re: [WISPA] Wimax gear Funny But I would say Im very satisfied with my current BMW Gino A. Villarini g...@aeronetpr.com Aeronet Wireless Broadband Corp. 787.273.4143 -Original Message- From: wireless-boun...@wispa.org [mailto:wireless-boun...@wispa.org] On Behalf Of 3-dB Networks Sent: Wednesday, December 30, 2009 11:04 AM To: 'WISPA General List' Subject: Re: [WISPA] Wimax gear Sorry I saw this on CNN and it made me laugh http://money.cnn.com/2009/12/30/autos/GM_Corvette_recall.cnnw/index.htm Daniel White 3-dB Networks http://www.3dbnetworks.com dan...@3-db.net -Original Message- From: wireless-boun...@wispa.org [mailto:wireless-boun...@wispa.org] On Behalf Of Mike Hammett Sent: Tuesday, December 29, 2009 7:33 PM To: WISPA General List Subject: Re: [WISPA] Wimax gear I'd say it'd be more like comparing a Corvette with a Porsche... in the right hands in many cases, a Corvette will beat the Porsche, but the Porsche is 35x more expensive. - Mike Hammett Intelligent Computing Solutions http://www.ics-il.com -- From: Gino Villarini g...@aeronetpr.com Sent: Tuesday, December 29, 2009 8:01 PM To: WISPA General List wireless@wispa.org Cc: WISPA General List wireless@wispa.org Subject: Re: [WISPA] Wimax gear Tom ROTFL You can't compare a ubiquiti to a motorola 16e That's like comparing a Yugo with a Porsche Sent from my Motorola Startac... On Dec 29, 2009, at 9:00 PM, Tom DeReggi wirelessn...@rapiddsl.net wrote: I will admit, Moto has made a name for itself as a company that is here for the long haul. From that perspective, its always excitign to learn about new Moto products on their way. No problem with the $350 CPE level. But, I'd argue $3500 AP is still way to high, even for 802.16e MIMO. The truth is, we all know the cost to make a MIMO device hardware is not that much more than to make legacy non-MIMO, or I should say, very insignificant compared to the market value of the higher capacity. Its all opportunity mark up. (Sure MIMO takes more processor power, more antennas, etc, but those things are likely obtainable cheaper today than their legacy components were when they were designed). I'd also argue that RF speed/price is similar to Computer CPU speed/ price concepts. 50 mbps today is equivelent in value to what 10mbps was to us 5 years ago. Therefore price points should not exceed the cost of 10mbps 5 years ago, for the WISP to get a break even on the new technology. This is from both the perspective of consumer's demand for higher speeds, as well as technology advancement. I'd pose the same arguements Ubiquiti AP $99. vs Moto AP $3500. Paying 35x more for an AP is a tough call. Dont get me wrong, I've always been in favor of higher cost AP, simply because it discourages putting them up unnecessarilly to create noise, before they are needed, and discourages harry high school kid from calling themselves a WISP with one paycheck from McDs. But I'd argued Moto would need to beat the current Canopy Advantage line AP cost in order to make a big splash in the market. Tom DeReggi RapidDSL Wireless, Inc IntAirNet- Fixed Wireless Broadband - Original Message - From: 3-dB Networks wi...@3-db.net To: 'WISPA General List' wireless@wispa.org Sent: Tuesday, December 29, 2009 6:39 PM Subject: Re: [WISPA] Wimax gear Everytime I see that pricing it makes me cringe... since I've seen Moto give pricing way before a product is actually set to release and its way off the mark. I hope it's right for Moto sake :-) Daniel White 3-dB Networks http://www.3dbnetworks.com dan...@3-db.net -Original Message- From: wireless-boun...@wispa.org [mailto:wireless- boun...@wispa.org] On Behalf Of Gino Villarini Sent: Tuesday, December 29, 2009 4:07 PM To: WISPA General List Subject: Re: [WISPA] Wimax gear Soon as in q1 or q2 IIRC $350~ SM $3500~ AP Specs are in the website under 320 series Sent from my Motorola Startac... On Dec 29, 2009, at 6:50 PM, Tom DeReggi wirelessn...@rapiddsl.net wrote: moto Did
Re: [WISPA] Wimax gear
If not... then I don't think a WISP (as we probably define it) is ever really going to be profitable with it. Off the top of my head, I know of 5 WISPs that are still deploy pre-WiMAX systems in the 2.5 GHz band and are doing quite nicely (and they aren't Clearwire / Digital Bridge type businesses where they're losing a ton of money) The average size of these guys is about 7,000 wireless customers in their respective markets In addition, when you dive into their financials, while their up-front CAPEX is significantly higher (due to the overbuild model of most 2.5 GHz systems) -- their operational and maintenance costs are significantly lower due to the fact that 1. They're not constantly dealing with interference and all the other gotchas that occur with Part 15 2. Many of them are able to utilize self-installs due to drastically increased power levels But what about Motorola's new product? Remember it's a fixed 802.16e, so you don't get the benefits of mobility, no indoor CPE's are planned as far as I know, but it is supposed to pay off in NLOS situations (which is anecdotal until we can get gear on a tower and test). There's actually 2 variants of this -- a fixed 802.16e that operates in 3.65, and their mobile product that operates in 2.5/2.3 -Charles -Original Message- From: wireless-boun...@wispa.org [mailto:wireless-boun...@wispa.org] On Behalf Of Blake Covarrubias Sent: Tuesday, December 29, 2009 11:56 PM To: WISPA General List Subject: Re: [WISPA] Wimax gear I'd say the question boils down to who's going to foot the bill for the deployment -- you or the government =) With or without government stimulus I'm curious of the lists' general consensus on whether or not WiMAX is worthwhile investment in this 'war' of LTE vs WiMAX. Having Uncle Sam foot the bill on a deployment definitely lowers / removes the financial barrier, but doesn't really matter if deploying WiMAX is a foolish endeavor from the get-go due to lack of customer demand or vendors ceasing development. I believe WiMAX has an opportunity to be commercially viable at least for a couple of years, and I don't see any reason to not take advantage of that fact. But, what do I know. Consider this a question solely for the sake of debate. -- Blake Covarrubias WISPA Wants You! Join today! http://signup.wispa.org/ WISPA Wireless List: wireless@wispa.org Subscribe/Unsubscribe: http://lists.wispa.org/mailman/listinfo/wireless Archives: http://lists.wispa.org/pipermail/wireless/ WISPA Wants You! Join today! http://signup.wispa.org/ WISPA Wireless List: wireless@wispa.org Subscribe/Unsubscribe: http://lists.wispa.org/mailman/listinfo/wireless Archives: http://lists.wispa.org/pipermail/wireless/ WISPA Wants You! Join today! http://signup.wispa.org/ WISPA Wireless List: wireless@wispa.org Subscribe/Unsubscribe: http://lists.wispa.org/mailman/listinfo/wireless Archives: http://lists.wispa.org/pipermail/wireless/
Re: [WISPA] Wimax gear
I find these comparisons of products like Ubiquiti / Mikrotik vs. Motorola / WiMAX products to be somewhat unrealistic -- it seems to me that it's like comparing something that's hypothetical and looks good on paper and hoping that it will actually work Here's my question; sure, on paper, the new Ubiquiti WHATEVER will give me a Gazillion Mbps with Beamforming and everything for $10 -- but has anyone actually made this stuff work and scaled it into a profitable business? Many of the WISPs that I've talked to who gone down this path have had to upgrade / replace / retool their networks due to the fact that these systems don't scale The one WISP that I know using Ubiquiti / Mikrotik with several thousand customers is only using them as endpoints on a Bel-Air Network Mesh infrastructure that they spent almost $1 million building out It reminds me of the Asterisk vs. Broadsoft / Metaswitch VoIP debates from a couple of years back -- sure, Asterisk was free while a Broadsoft platform had an entry cost of $250k, but I know of tons of Broadsoft providers who support tens of thousands of customers for hosted PBX, and the only guy I know doing it on Asterisk ended up spending over $500k hiring a custom programming team in Russia to rebuild the system for him from scratch (he was joking to me that in hindsight, it would've been cheaper and a lot easier to just buy a Broadsoft) I would like to be proven wrong here...so shoot =) -Charles WISPA Wants You! Join today! http://signup.wispa.org/ WISPA Wireless List: wireless@wispa.org Subscribe/Unsubscribe: http://lists.wispa.org/mailman/listinfo/wireless Archives: http://lists.wispa.org/pipermail/wireless/
Re: [WISPA] Wimax gear
We have successfuly used ubiquiti nano and power stations as injection radios for numerous tripod and cisco mesh systems. No problems. Of course I have used canopy for it too- no real difference in the end performance. Would not use Mikrotik for any RF due to our desire to stay legal. On Dec 30, 2009, at 7:05 PM, Charles Wu c...@cticonnect.com wrote: I find these comparisons of products like Ubiquiti / Mikrotik vs. Motorola / WiMAX products to be somewhat unrealistic -- it seems to me that it's like comparing something that's hypothetical and looks good on paper and hoping that it will actually work Here's my question; sure, on paper, the new Ubiquiti WHATEVER will give me a Gazillion Mbps with Beamforming and everything for $10 -- but has anyone actually made this stuff work and scaled it into a profitable business? Many of the WISPs that I've talked to who gone down this path have had to upgrade / replace / retool their networks due to the fact that these systems don't scale The one WISP that I know using Ubiquiti / Mikrotik with several thousand customers is only using them as endpoints on a Bel-Air Network Mesh infrastructure that they spent almost $1 million building out It reminds me of the Asterisk vs. Broadsoft / Metaswitch VoIP debates from a couple of years back -- sure, Asterisk was free while a Broadsoft platform had an entry cost of $250k, but I know of tons of Broadsoft providers who support tens of thousands of customers for hosted PBX, and the only guy I know doing it on Asterisk ended up spending over $500k hiring a custom programming team in Russia to rebuild the system for him from scratch (he was joking to me that in hindsight, it would've been cheaper and a lot easier to just buy a Broadsoft) I would like to be proven wrong here...so shoot =) -Charles --- --- --- --- WISPA Wants You! Join today! http://signup.wispa.org/ --- --- --- --- WISPA Wireless List: wireless@wispa.org Subscribe/Unsubscribe: http://lists.wispa.org/mailman/listinfo/wireless Archives: http://lists.wispa.org/pipermail/wireless/ WISPA Wants You! Join today! http://signup.wispa.org/ WISPA Wireless List: wireless@wispa.org Subscribe/Unsubscribe: http://lists.wispa.org/mailman/listinfo/wireless Archives: http://lists.wispa.org/pipermail/wireless/
Re: [WISPA] Wimax gear
You can use MikroTik and be legal. Anyone say any different either don't understand the rules or checked the approved certs or is just spreading FUD. /Eje Sent via BlackBerry from T-Mobile -Original Message- From: Ralph ralphli...@bsrg.org Date: Wed, 30 Dec 2009 20:05:50 To: WISPA General Listwireless@wispa.org Cc: WISPA General Listwireless@wispa.org Subject: Re: [WISPA] Wimax gear We have successfuly used ubiquiti nano and power stations as injection radios for numerous tripod and cisco mesh systems. No problems. Of course I have used canopy for it too- no real difference in the end performance. Would not use Mikrotik for any RF due to our desire to stay legal. On Dec 30, 2009, at 7:05 PM, Charles Wu c...@cticonnect.com wrote: I find these comparisons of products like Ubiquiti / Mikrotik vs. Motorola / WiMAX products to be somewhat unrealistic -- it seems to me that it's like comparing something that's hypothetical and looks good on paper and hoping that it will actually work Here's my question; sure, on paper, the new Ubiquiti WHATEVER will give me a Gazillion Mbps with Beamforming and everything for $10 -- but has anyone actually made this stuff work and scaled it into a profitable business? Many of the WISPs that I've talked to who gone down this path have had to upgrade / replace / retool their networks due to the fact that these systems don't scale The one WISP that I know using Ubiquiti / Mikrotik with several thousand customers is only using them as endpoints on a Bel-Air Network Mesh infrastructure that they spent almost $1 million building out It reminds me of the Asterisk vs. Broadsoft / Metaswitch VoIP debates from a couple of years back -- sure, Asterisk was free while a Broadsoft platform had an entry cost of $250k, but I know of tons of Broadsoft providers who support tens of thousands of customers for hosted PBX, and the only guy I know doing it on Asterisk ended up spending over $500k hiring a custom programming team in Russia to rebuild the system for him from scratch (he was joking to me that in hindsight, it would've been cheaper and a lot easier to just buy a Broadsoft) I would like to be proven wrong here...so shoot =) -Charles --- --- --- --- WISPA Wants You! Join today! http://signup.wispa.org/ --- --- --- --- WISPA Wireless List: wireless@wispa.org Subscribe/Unsubscribe: http://lists.wispa.org/mailman/listinfo/wireless Archives: http://lists.wispa.org/pipermail/wireless/ WISPA Wants You! Join today! http://signup.wispa.org/ WISPA Wireless List: wireless@wispa.org Subscribe/Unsubscribe: http://lists.wispa.org/mailman/listinfo/wireless Archives: http://lists.wispa.org/pipermail/wireless/ WISPA Wants You! Join today! http://signup.wispa.org/ WISPA Wireless List: wireless@wispa.org Subscribe/Unsubscribe: http://lists.wispa.org/mailman/listinfo/wireless Archives: http://lists.wispa.org/pipermail/wireless/
Re: [WISPA] Wimax gear
Go ahead and live the dream then, but please don't homebuild your own gear and deploy it in any of my markets. We prefer certified products. On Dec 30, 2009, at 8:10 PM, e...@wisp-router.com wrote: You can use MikroTik and be legal. Anyone say any different either don't understand the rules or checked the approved certs or is just spreading FUD. /Eje Sent via BlackBerry from T-Mobile -Original Message- From: Ralph ralphli...@bsrg.org Date: Wed, 30 Dec 2009 20:05:50 To: WISPA General Listwireless@wispa.org Cc: WISPA General Listwireless@wispa.org Subject: Re: [WISPA] Wimax gear We have successfuly used ubiquiti nano and power stations as injection radios for numerous tripod and cisco mesh systems. No problems. Of course I have used canopy for it too- no real difference in the end performance. Would not use Mikrotik for any RF due to our desire to stay legal. On Dec 30, 2009, at 7:05 PM, Charles Wu c...@cticonnect.com wrote: I find these comparisons of products like Ubiquiti / Mikrotik vs. Motorola / WiMAX products to be somewhat unrealistic -- it seems to me that it's like comparing something that's hypothetical and looks good on paper and hoping that it will actually work Here's my question; sure, on paper, the new Ubiquiti WHATEVER will give me a Gazillion Mbps with Beamforming and everything for $10 -- but has anyone actually made this stuff work and scaled it into a profitable business? Many of the WISPs that I've talked to who gone down this path have had to upgrade / replace / retool their networks due to the fact that these systems don't scale The one WISP that I know using Ubiquiti / Mikrotik with several thousand customers is only using them as endpoints on a Bel-Air Network Mesh infrastructure that they spent almost $1 million building out It reminds me of the Asterisk vs. Broadsoft / Metaswitch VoIP debates from a couple of years back -- sure, Asterisk was free while a Broadsoft platform had an entry cost of $250k, but I know of tons of Broadsoft providers who support tens of thousands of customers for hosted PBX, and the only guy I know doing it on Asterisk ended up spending over $500k hiring a custom programming team in Russia to rebuild the system for him from scratch (he was joking to me that in hindsight, it would've been cheaper and a lot easier to just buy a Broadsoft) I would like to be proven wrong here...so shoot =) -Charles --- --- --- --- WISPA Wants You! Join today! http://signup.wispa.org/ --- --- --- --- WISPA Wireless List: wireless@wispa.org Subscribe/Unsubscribe: http://lists.wispa.org/mailman/listinfo/wireless Archives: http://lists.wispa.org/pipermail/wireless/ --- --- --- --- WISPA Wants You! Join today! http://signup.wispa.org/ --- --- --- --- WISPA Wireless List: wireless@wispa.org Subscribe/Unsubscribe: http://lists.wispa.org/mailman/listinfo/wireless Archives: http://lists.wispa.org/pipermail/wireless/ --- --- --- --- WISPA Wants You! Join today! http://signup.wispa.org/ --- --- --- --- WISPA Wireless List: wireless@wispa.org Subscribe/Unsubscribe: http://lists.wispa.org/mailman/listinfo/wireless Archives: http://lists.wispa.org/pipermail/wireless/ WISPA Wants You! Join today! http://signup.wispa.org/ WISPA Wireless List: wireless@wispa.org Subscribe/Unsubscribe: http://lists.wispa.org/mailman/listinfo/wireless Archives: http://lists.wispa.org/pipermail/wireless/
Re: [WISPA] Wimax gear
Hi RALPH! ryan On Dec 30, 2009, at 5:14 PM, Ralph wrote: Go ahead and live the dream then, but please don't homebuild your own gear and deploy it in any of my markets. We prefer certified products. On Dec 30, 2009, at 8:10 PM, e...@wisp-router.com wrote: You can use MikroTik and be legal. Anyone say any different either don't understand the rules or checked the approved certs or is just spreading FUD. /Eje Sent via BlackBerry from T-Mobile -Original Message- From: Ralph ralphli...@bsrg.org Date: Wed, 30 Dec 2009 20:05:50 To: WISPA General Listwireless@wispa.org Cc: WISPA General Listwireless@wispa.org Subject: Re: [WISPA] Wimax gear We have successfuly used ubiquiti nano and power stations as injection radios for numerous tripod and cisco mesh systems. No problems. Of course I have used canopy for it too- no real difference in the end performance. Would not use Mikrotik for any RF due to our desire to stay legal. On Dec 30, 2009, at 7:05 PM, Charles Wu c...@cticonnect.com wrote: I find these comparisons of products like Ubiquiti / Mikrotik vs. Motorola / WiMAX products to be somewhat unrealistic -- it seems to me that it's like comparing something that's hypothetical and looks good on paper and hoping that it will actually work Here's my question; sure, on paper, the new Ubiquiti WHATEVER will give me a Gazillion Mbps with Beamforming and everything for $10 -- but has anyone actually made this stuff work and scaled it into a profitable business? Many of the WISPs that I've talked to who gone down this path have had to upgrade / replace / retool their networks due to the fact that these systems don't scale The one WISP that I know using Ubiquiti / Mikrotik with several thousand customers is only using them as endpoints on a Bel-Air Network Mesh infrastructure that they spent almost $1 million building out It reminds me of the Asterisk vs. Broadsoft / Metaswitch VoIP debates from a couple of years back -- sure, Asterisk was free while a Broadsoft platform had an entry cost of $250k, but I know of tons of Broadsoft providers who support tens of thousands of customers for hosted PBX, and the only guy I know doing it on Asterisk ended up spending over $500k hiring a custom programming team in Russia to rebuild the system for him from scratch (he was joking to me that in hindsight, it would've been cheaper and a lot easier to just buy a Broadsoft) I would like to be proven wrong here...so shoot =) -Charles --- --- --- --- WISPA Wants You! Join today! http://signup.wispa.org/ --- --- --- --- WISPA Wireless List: wireless@wispa.org Subscribe/Unsubscribe: http://lists.wispa.org/mailman/listinfo/wireless Archives: http://lists.wispa.org/pipermail/wireless/ --- --- --- --- WISPA Wants You! Join today! http://signup.wispa.org/ --- --- --- --- WISPA Wireless List: wireless@wispa.org Subscribe/Unsubscribe: http://lists.wispa.org/mailman/listinfo/wireless Archives: http://lists.wispa.org/pipermail/wireless/ --- --- --- --- WISPA Wants You! Join today! http://signup.wispa.org/ --- --- --- --- WISPA Wireless List: wireless@wispa.org Subscribe/Unsubscribe: http://lists.wispa.org/mailman/listinfo/wireless Archives: http://lists.wispa.org/pipermail/wireless/ WISPA Wants You! Join today! http://signup.wispa.org/ WISPA Wireless List: wireless@wispa.org Subscribe/Unsubscribe: http://lists.wispa.org/mailman/listinfo/wireless Archives: http://lists.wispa.org/pipermail/wireless/ WISPA Wants You! Join today! http://signup.wispa.org/ WISPA Wireless List: wireless@wispa.org Subscribe/Unsubscribe: http://lists.wispa.org/mailman/listinfo/wireless Archives: http://lists.wispa.org/pipermail/wireless/
Re: [WISPA] Wimax gear
Sorry. Dumb iPhone auto correction changed Tropos to tripod. Lol On Dec 30, 2009, at 8:05 PM, Ralph ralphli...@bsrg.org wrote: We have successfuly used ubiquiti nano and power stations as injection radios for numerous tripod and cisco mesh systems. No problems. Of course I have used canopy for it too- no real difference in the end performance. Would not use Mikrotik for any RF due to our desire to stay legal. On Dec 30, 2009, at 7:05 PM, Charles Wu c...@cticonnect.com wrote: I find these comparisons of products like Ubiquiti / Mikrotik vs. Motorola / WiMAX products to be somewhat unrealistic -- it seems to me that it's like comparing something that's hypothetical and looks good on paper and hoping that it will actually work Here's my question; sure, on paper, the new Ubiquiti WHATEVER will give me a Gazillion Mbps with Beamforming and everything for $10 -- but has anyone actually made this stuff work and scaled it into a profitable business? Many of the WISPs that I've talked to who gone down this path have had to upgrade / replace / retool their networks due to the fact that these systems don't scale The one WISP that I know using Ubiquiti / Mikrotik with several thousand customers is only using them as endpoints on a Bel-Air Network Mesh infrastructure that they spent almost $1 million building out It reminds me of the Asterisk vs. Broadsoft / Metaswitch VoIP debates from a couple of years back -- sure, Asterisk was free while a Broadsoft platform had an entry cost of $250k, but I know of tons of Broadsoft providers who support tens of thousands of customers for hosted PBX, and the only guy I know doing it on Asterisk ended up spending over $500k hiring a custom programming team in Russia to rebuild the system for him from scratch (he was joking to me that in hindsight, it would've been cheaper and a lot easier to just buy a Broadsoft) I would like to be proven wrong here...so shoot =) -Charles --- --- --- --- WISPA Wants You! Join today! http://signup.wispa.org/ --- --- --- --- WISPA Wireless List: wireless@wispa.org Subscribe/Unsubscribe: http://lists.wispa.org/mailman/listinfo/wireless Archives: http://lists.wispa.org/pipermail/wireless/ --- --- --- --- WISPA Wants You! Join today! http://signup.wispa.org/ --- --- --- --- WISPA Wireless List: wireless@wispa.org Subscribe/Unsubscribe: http://lists.wispa.org/mailman/listinfo/wireless Archives: http://lists.wispa.org/pipermail/wireless/ WISPA Wants You! Join today! http://signup.wispa.org/ WISPA Wireless List: wireless@wispa.org Subscribe/Unsubscribe: http://lists.wispa.org/mailman/listinfo/wireless Archives: http://lists.wispa.org/pipermail/wireless/
Re: [WISPA] Wimax gear
Here we go again. -Original Message- From: wireless-boun...@wispa.org [mailto:wireless-boun...@wispa.org] On Behalf Of Ralph Sent: Wednesday, December 30, 2009 5:15 PM To: e...@wisp-router.com; WISPA General List Cc: WISPA General List Subject: Re: [WISPA] Wimax gear Go ahead and live the dream then, but please don't homebuild your own gear and deploy it in any of my markets. We prefer certified products. On Dec 30, 2009, at 8:10 PM, e...@wisp-router.com wrote: You can use MikroTik and be legal. Anyone say any different either don't understand the rules or checked the approved certs or is just spreading FUD. /Eje Sent via BlackBerry from T-Mobile -Original Message- From: Ralph ralphli...@bsrg.org Date: Wed, 30 Dec 2009 20:05:50 To: WISPA General Listwireless@wispa.org Cc: WISPA General Listwireless@wispa.org Subject: Re: [WISPA] Wimax gear We have successfuly used ubiquiti nano and power stations as injection radios for numerous tripod and cisco mesh systems. No problems. Of course I have used canopy for it too- no real difference in the end performance. Would not use Mikrotik for any RF due to our desire to stay legal. On Dec 30, 2009, at 7:05 PM, Charles Wu c...@cticonnect.com wrote: I find these comparisons of products like Ubiquiti / Mikrotik vs. Motorola / WiMAX products to be somewhat unrealistic -- it seems to me that it's like comparing something that's hypothetical and looks good on paper and hoping that it will actually work Here's my question; sure, on paper, the new Ubiquiti WHATEVER will give me a Gazillion Mbps with Beamforming and everything for $10 -- but has anyone actually made this stuff work and scaled it into a profitable business? Many of the WISPs that I've talked to who gone down this path have had to upgrade / replace / retool their networks due to the fact that these systems don't scale The one WISP that I know using Ubiquiti / Mikrotik with several thousand customers is only using them as endpoints on a Bel-Air Network Mesh infrastructure that they spent almost $1 million building out It reminds me of the Asterisk vs. Broadsoft / Metaswitch VoIP debates from a couple of years back -- sure, Asterisk was free while a Broadsoft platform had an entry cost of $250k, but I know of tons of Broadsoft providers who support tens of thousands of customers for hosted PBX, and the only guy I know doing it on Asterisk ended up spending over $500k hiring a custom programming team in Russia to rebuild the system for him from scratch (he was joking to me that in hindsight, it would've been cheaper and a lot easier to just buy a Broadsoft) I would like to be proven wrong here...so shoot =) -Charles --- --- --- --- WISPA Wants You! Join today! http://signup.wispa.org/ --- --- --- --- WISPA Wireless List: wireless@wispa.org Subscribe/Unsubscribe: http://lists.wispa.org/mailman/listinfo/wireless Archives: http://lists.wispa.org/pipermail/wireless/ --- --- --- --- WISPA Wants You! Join today! http://signup.wispa.org/ --- --- --- --- WISPA Wireless List: wireless@wispa.org Subscribe/Unsubscribe: http://lists.wispa.org/mailman/listinfo/wireless Archives: http://lists.wispa.org/pipermail/wireless/ --- --- --- --- WISPA Wants You! Join today! http://signup.wispa.org/ --- --- --- --- WISPA Wireless List: wireless@wispa.org Subscribe/Unsubscribe: http://lists.wispa.org/mailman/listinfo/wireless Archives: http://lists.wispa.org/pipermail/wireless/ WISPA Wants You! Join today! http://signup.wispa.org/ WISPA Wireless List: wireless@wispa.org Subscribe/Unsubscribe: http://lists.wispa.org/mailman/listinfo/wireless Archives: http://lists.wispa.org/pipermail/wireless/ WISPA Wants You! Join today! http://signup.wispa.org/ WISPA Wireless List: wireless@wispa.org Subscribe/Unsubscribe: http://lists.wispa.org/mailman/listinfo/wireless Archives: http://lists.wispa.org/pipermail/wireless/
Re: [WISPA] Wimax gear
We have successfuly used ubiquiti nano and power stations as injection radios for numerous tripod and cisco mesh systems. No problems. Of course I have used canopy for it too- no real difference in the end performance. But there's a huge difference between using a few here and there and relying on things as a platform for wide-scale operations Let's go back to the original thread -- we were talking about how Ubiquiti was changing the game with their new $75 AP that does 150 Mb or something (as compared to the Alvarion/Motorolas/WiMAX guys of the world who still don't get it with their $3/5/10k APs) -- up until now, it's been my experience that this is an apples to oranges debate (heck, couldn't I make the same argument that belkin or dlink has had a super-N mimo AP for $69 at Best Buy for some time now?) The last guy I know who tried this (actually a WISP with ~5k customers who might be reading this thread =) decided to go all-out with Mikrotik -- sure, the APs cost $200 or something, but he found that contention limited him to 20-30 customers / AP, while an slower and 5x more expensive Canopy system allowed him to put 100+ customer / AP -- in his case, one of the things that factored into the decision was tower rent Now, this was probably a year ago and things may have changed... I am not saying that ubiquity / mikrotik aren't good solutions -- we see nice applications for such units to fill in gaps or extend the network where terrain is challenging and there are pockets of small density (e.g., a neighborhood cul-de-sac or something similar with 3 or 4 additional people) -- and I'd probably wager that almost every WISP - Canopy/Alvarion/WiMAX/etc has deployed a few nanos/locos/etc in such a manner fashion, but that's a far different cry than using it as a primary platform of choice for delivering service to thousands of subscribers That being said, if someone has built such a system, please pipe up and share your experiences -- I'm always interested in learning how to do things better/faster/cheaper... -Charles On Dec 30, 2009, at 7:05 PM, Charles Wu c...@cticonnect.com wrote: I find these comparisons of products like Ubiquiti / Mikrotik vs. Motorola / WiMAX products to be somewhat unrealistic -- it seems to me that it's like comparing something that's hypothetical and looks good on paper and hoping that it will actually work Here's my question; sure, on paper, the new Ubiquiti WHATEVER will give me a Gazillion Mbps with Beamforming and everything for $10 -- but has anyone actually made this stuff work and scaled it into a profitable business? Many of the WISPs that I've talked to who gone down this path have had to upgrade / replace / retool their networks due to the fact that these systems don't scale The one WISP that I know using Ubiquiti / Mikrotik with several thousand customers is only using them as endpoints on a Bel-Air Network Mesh infrastructure that they spent almost $1 million building out It reminds me of the Asterisk vs. Broadsoft / Metaswitch VoIP debates from a couple of years back -- sure, Asterisk was free while a Broadsoft platform had an entry cost of $250k, but I know of tons of Broadsoft providers who support tens of thousands of customers for hosted PBX, and the only guy I know doing it on Asterisk ended up spending over $500k hiring a custom programming team in Russia to rebuild the system for him from scratch (he was joking to me that in hindsight, it would've been cheaper and a lot easier to just buy a Broadsoft) I would like to be proven wrong here...so shoot =) -Charles --- --- --- --- WISPA Wants You! Join today! http://signup.wispa.org/ --- --- --- --- WISPA Wireless List: wireless@wispa.org Subscribe/Unsubscribe: http://lists.wispa.org/mailman/listinfo/wireless Archives: http://lists.wispa.org/pipermail/wireless/ WISPA Wants You! Join today! http://signup.wispa.org/ WISPA Wireless List: wireless@wispa.org Subscribe/Unsubscribe: http://lists.wispa.org/mailman/listinfo/wireless Archives: http://lists.wispa.org/pipermail/wireless/ WISPA Wants You! Join today! http://signup.wispa.org/ WISPA Wireless List: wireless@wispa.org Subscribe/Unsubscribe: http://lists.wispa.org/mailman/listinfo/wireless Archives: http://lists.wispa.org/pipermail/wireless/
Re: [WISPA] Wimax gear
Charles, I don't think that is the point that is being made. While you are correct with your this is a 'apples to oranges' comparison, it is hard to ignore the very fact that when folks such as Ubiquity enter the market place, they end up causing a 'shake down' for everyone, forcing the other mfg. to either really raise the bar (Product performance / pricing) or move down. We have seen this many a times in the last 15 years, such things do not happen overnight and do take time... Look at Linksys They challenged the 'incumbent' networking equipment mfg. many don't exist any more, and today Linksys is owned and operated by Cisco Regardless of the fact that you like or dislike linksys products, it is impossible to deny the impact they have made in the networking equipment market place. Just like the opensource folks are doing to established software vendors So here is my prediction Mid-market (Price/performance) mfg. will have a tough time surviving in the wireless market place... The Current established High End players will have to decide either come down in their price preformance or go UP towards the High Price range... My guess is that the cost of Hardware mfg. is about the same for all (give or take), but it is the cost of development and QC that makes the difference...Time and Time again we have seen that folks are willing to put up with less quality when the cost comes down. Why should it be different this time ? It is interesting to see this conversation in a group of folks who came into being, because of 'innovative' low cost equipment mfg. One a separate note:- Looking at the Wireline Broadband industry's development. The smaller operators demonstated a viable marketplace for Internet Access...using 'disruptive' gear... And afterwards, the larger operators stepped in the make things work at a whole different scale...I am not sure how many of us here realize that the equipment handling the wire line networks today (capacity wise) did not exist 10 years ago, some of the larger routers did not exist even 5 years ago..There are whole product lines (from Cisco/Nortel/Alcatel etc. which are custom built just for the Incumbents.simply because there are no other large customers who could use these types of devices... Why should the Wirless industry be any different ? BTW Just 5 years ago, Motorola did not have a Reference customer with 5000 + subscribers...(they themselves did not know if the Canopy system was going to scale to that level)...But things change... Faisal Imtiaz Computer Office Solutions Inc. /SnappyDSL.net Ph: (305) 663-5518 x 232 -Original Message- From: wireless-boun...@wispa.org [mailto:wireless-boun...@wispa.org] On Behalf Of Charles Wu Sent: Wednesday, December 30, 2009 11:34 PM To: WISPA General List Subject: Re: [WISPA] Wimax gear We have successfuly used ubiquiti nano and power stations as injection radios for numerous tripod and cisco mesh systems. No problems. Of course I have used canopy for it too- no real difference in the end performance. But there's a huge difference between using a few here and there and relying on things as a platform for wide-scale operations Let's go back to the original thread -- we were talking about how Ubiquiti was changing the game with their new $75 AP that does 150 Mb or something (as compared to the Alvarion/Motorolas/WiMAX guys of the world who still don't get it with their $3/5/10k APs) -- up until now, it's been my experience that this is an apples to oranges debate (heck, couldn't I make the same argument that belkin or dlink has had a super-N mimo AP for $69 at Best Buy for some time now?) The last guy I know who tried this (actually a WISP with ~5k customers who might be reading this thread =) decided to go all-out with Mikrotik -- sure, the APs cost $200 or something, but he found that contention limited him to 20-30 customers / AP, while an slower and 5x more expensive Canopy system allowed him to put 100+ customer / AP -- in his case, one of the things that factored into the decision was tower rent Now, this was probably a year ago and things may have changed... I am not saying that ubiquity / mikrotik aren't good solutions -- we see nice applications for such units to fill in gaps or extend the network where terrain is challenging and there are pockets of small density (e.g., a neighborhood cul-de-sac or something similar with 3 or 4 additional people) -- and I'd probably wager that almost every WISP - Canopy/Alvarion/WiMAX/etc has deployed a few nanos/locos/etc in such a manner fashion, but that's a far different cry than using it as a primary platform of choice for delivering service to thousands of subscribers That being said, if someone has built such a system, please pipe up and share your experiences -- I'm always interested in learning how to do things better/faster/cheaper... -Charles On Dec 30, 2009, at 7:05 PM, Charles Wu c...@cticonnect.com wrote: I find
Re: [WISPA] Wimax gear - licensed bands btw
Speaking of which, did anyone notice the results of the latest BRS Auction (#86) Licenses went for an average of $0.03 / MHz POP That means if 60 MHz covering 100,000 people (as defined by Census 2000 numbers) would have gone for $180k -- with the small business 35% credit - that means a WISP would've paid $117k for that spectrum While $117k is nothing to sneeze at, it's just worth noting that getting a license is not something unreasonable or unobtainable for the small guy -Charles WISPA Wants You! Join today! http://signup.wispa.org/ WISPA Wireless List: wireless@wispa.org Subscribe/Unsubscribe: http://lists.wispa.org/mailman/listinfo/wireless Archives: http://lists.wispa.org/pipermail/wireless/
[WISPA] Wimax gear
We are looking for some more wimax gear to test for the 3.65 band, our basic criteria would be 802.16e/mimo, we've tested Alvarion gear already. We are looking for something that will work in an urban environment with self install radios, can deliver voice and if possible with PPP/NAT/DHCP in the radio rather then as an external gateway device. If any dealers out there would like to chime in or hit me off list I would appreciate it. Regards Michael Baird WISPA Wants You! Join today! http://signup.wispa.org/ WISPA Wireless List: wireless@wispa.org Subscribe/Unsubscribe: http://lists.wispa.org/mailman/listinfo/wireless Archives: http://lists.wispa.org/pipermail/wireless/
Re: [WISPA] Wimax gear
Wait for q1 release of the Canopy 320, all that and more Gino A. Villarini g...@aeronetpr.com Aeronet Wireless Broadband Corp. 787.273.4143 -Original Message- From: wireless-boun...@wispa.org [mailto:wireless-boun...@wispa.org] On Behalf Of Michael Baird Sent: Tuesday, December 29, 2009 3:22 PM To: WISPA General List Subject: [WISPA] Wimax gear We are looking for some more wimax gear to test for the 3.65 band, our basic criteria would be 802.16e/mimo, we've tested Alvarion gear already. We are looking for something that will work in an urban environment with self install radios, can deliver voice and if possible with PPP/NAT/DHCP in the radio rather then as an external gateway device. If any dealers out there would like to chime in or hit me off list I would appreciate it. Regards Michael Baird WISPA Wants You! Join today! http://signup.wispa.org/ WISPA Wireless List: wireless@wispa.org Subscribe/Unsubscribe: http://lists.wispa.org/mailman/listinfo/wireless Archives: http://lists.wispa.org/pipermail/wireless/ WISPA Wants You! Join today! http://signup.wispa.org/ WISPA Wireless List: wireless@wispa.org Subscribe/Unsubscribe: http://lists.wispa.org/mailman/listinfo/wireless Archives: http://lists.wispa.org/pipermail/wireless/
Re: [WISPA] Wimax gear
Self install won't work in 3650 beyond 1/4 mile, maybe 1/2 mile. Patrick has elaborated on this many times. - Mike Hammett Intelligent Computing Solutions http://www.ics-il.com -- From: Michael Baird m...@tc3net.com Sent: Tuesday, December 29, 2009 1:22 PM To: WISPA General List wireless@wispa.org Subject: [WISPA] Wimax gear We are looking for some more wimax gear to test for the 3.65 band, our basic criteria would be 802.16e/mimo, we've tested Alvarion gear already. We are looking for something that will work in an urban environment with self install radios, can deliver voice and if possible with PPP/NAT/DHCP in the radio rather then as an external gateway device. If any dealers out there would like to chime in or hit me off list I would appreciate it. Regards Michael Baird WISPA Wants You! Join today! http://signup.wispa.org/ WISPA Wireless List: wireless@wispa.org Subscribe/Unsubscribe: http://lists.wispa.org/mailman/listinfo/wireless Archives: http://lists.wispa.org/pipermail/wireless/ WISPA Wants You! Join today! http://signup.wispa.org/ WISPA Wireless List: wireless@wispa.org Subscribe/Unsubscribe: http://lists.wispa.org/mailman/listinfo/wireless Archives: http://lists.wispa.org/pipermail/wireless/
Re: [WISPA] Wimax gear
Gino, Where can I find detailed info on the product there doesn't seem to be much available in regards to it's routing features. I'm also concerned about the CPE cost/licenses that's what drove us from Canopy before. Regards Michael Baird Wait for q1 release of the Canopy 320, all that and more Gino A. Villarini g...@aeronetpr.com Aeronet Wireless Broadband Corp. 787.273.4143 -Original Message- From: wireless-boun...@wispa.org [mailto:wireless-boun...@wispa.org] On Behalf Of Michael Baird Sent: Tuesday, December 29, 2009 3:22 PM To: WISPA General List Subject: [WISPA] Wimax gear We are looking for some more wimax gear to test for the 3.65 band, our basic criteria would be 802.16e/mimo, we've tested Alvarion gear already. We are looking for something that will work in an urban environment with self install radios, can deliver voice and if possible with PPP/NAT/DHCP in the radio rather then as an external gateway device. If any dealers out there would like to chime in or hit me off list I would appreciate it. Regards Michael Baird WISPA Wants You! Join today! http://signup.wispa.org/ WISPA Wireless List: wireless@wispa.org Subscribe/Unsubscribe: http://lists.wispa.org/mailman/listinfo/wireless Archives: http://lists.wispa.org/pipermail/wireless/ WISPA Wants You! Join today! http://signup.wispa.org/ WISPA Wireless List: wireless@wispa.org Subscribe/Unsubscribe: http://lists.wispa.org/mailman/listinfo/wireless Archives: http://lists.wispa.org/pipermail/wireless/ WISPA Wants You! Join today! http://signup.wispa.org/ WISPA Wireless List: wireless@wispa.org Subscribe/Unsubscribe: http://lists.wispa.org/mailman/listinfo/wireless Archives: http://lists.wispa.org/pipermail/wireless/
Re: [WISPA] Wimax gear
Patrick works for Aperto, they don't support beamshaping/mimo or 802.16e, my Alvarion and Navini gear with the non-mimo subscriber radio (mimo on the tower) worked at a mile non-LOS. I appreciate the input, but it disputes my results in the field (rural heavily treed, not urban). Regards Michael Baird Self install won't work in 3650 beyond 1/4 mile, maybe 1/2 mile. Patrick has elaborated on this many times. - Mike Hammett Intelligent Computing Solutions http://www.ics-il.com -- From: Michael Baird m...@tc3net.com Sent: Tuesday, December 29, 2009 1:22 PM To: WISPA General List wireless@wispa.org Subject: [WISPA] Wimax gear We are looking for some more wimax gear to test for the 3.65 band, our basic criteria would be 802.16e/mimo, we've tested Alvarion gear already. We are looking for something that will work in an urban environment with self install radios, can deliver voice and if possible with PPP/NAT/DHCP in the radio rather then as an external gateway device. If any dealers out there would like to chime in or hit me off list I would appreciate it. Regards Michael Baird WISPA Wants You! Join today! http://signup.wispa.org/ WISPA Wireless List: wireless@wispa.org Subscribe/Unsubscribe: http://lists.wispa.org/mailman/listinfo/wireless Archives: http://lists.wispa.org/pipermail/wireless/ WISPA Wants You! Join today! http://signup.wispa.org/ WISPA Wireless List: wireless@wispa.org Subscribe/Unsubscribe: http://lists.wispa.org/mailman/listinfo/wireless Archives: http://lists.wispa.org/pipermail/wireless/ WISPA Wants You! Join today! http://signup.wispa.org/ WISPA Wireless List: wireless@wispa.org Subscribe/Unsubscribe: http://lists.wispa.org/mailman/listinfo/wireless Archives: http://lists.wispa.org/pipermail/wireless/
Re: [WISPA] Wimax gear
Are you (Michael) talking about self install or outdoor install? Mike (Hammett) is talking about self installs. Josh Luthman Office: 937-552-2340 Direct: 937-552-2343 1100 Wayne St Suite 1337 Troy, OH 45373 The secret to creativity is knowing how to hide your sources. --- Albert Einstein On Tue, Dec 29, 2009 at 2:53 PM, Michael Baird m...@tc3net.com wrote: Patrick works for Aperto, they don't support beamshaping/mimo or 802.16e, my Alvarion and Navini gear with the non-mimo subscriber radio (mimo on the tower) worked at a mile non-LOS. I appreciate the input, but it disputes my results in the field (rural heavily treed, not urban). Regards Michael Baird Self install won't work in 3650 beyond 1/4 mile, maybe 1/2 mile. Patrick has elaborated on this many times. - Mike Hammett Intelligent Computing Solutions http://www.ics-il.com -- From: Michael Baird m...@tc3net.com Sent: Tuesday, December 29, 2009 1:22 PM To: WISPA General List wireless@wispa.org Subject: [WISPA] Wimax gear We are looking for some more wimax gear to test for the 3.65 band, our basic criteria would be 802.16e/mimo, we've tested Alvarion gear already. We are looking for something that will work in an urban environment with self install radios, can deliver voice and if possible with PPP/NAT/DHCP in the radio rather then as an external gateway device. If any dealers out there would like to chime in or hit me off list I would appreciate it. Regards Michael Baird WISPA Wants You! Join today! http://signup.wispa.org/ WISPA Wireless List: wireless@wispa.org Subscribe/Unsubscribe: http://lists.wispa.org/mailman/listinfo/wireless Archives: http://lists.wispa.org/pipermail/wireless/ WISPA Wants You! Join today! http://signup.wispa.org/ WISPA Wireless List: wireless@wispa.org Subscribe/Unsubscribe: http://lists.wispa.org/mailman/listinfo/wireless Archives: http://lists.wispa.org/pipermail/wireless/ WISPA Wants You! Join today! http://signup.wispa.org/ WISPA Wireless List: wireless@wispa.org Subscribe/Unsubscribe: http://lists.wispa.org/mailman/listinfo/wireless Archives: http://lists.wispa.org/pipermail/wireless/ WISPA Wants You! Join today! http://signup.wispa.org/ WISPA Wireless List: wireless@wispa.org Subscribe/Unsubscribe: http://lists.wispa.org/mailman/listinfo/wireless Archives: http://lists.wispa.org/pipermail/wireless/
Re: [WISPA] Wimax gear
Josh, I tested via a truck, I could take the Alvarion unit and put it on the back seat of the extended cab, and it worked everywhere within a mile radius I drove to. This was an outdoor unit with a 14.5 db panel, strictly speaking I was testing outdoor (I wanted SI's from Alvarion but they aren't available for 3.65 yet). I was supposing that the SI with a multiple antenna array and higher transmit would perform similarily to a radio sitting flat on the seat of a truck, maybe it was a bad supposition. Regards Michael Baird Are you (Michael) talking about self install or outdoor install? Mike (Hammett) is talking about self installs. Josh Luthman Office: 937-552-2340 Direct: 937-552-2343 1100 Wayne St Suite 1337 Troy, OH 45373 The secret to creativity is knowing how to hide your sources. --- Albert Einstein On Tue, Dec 29, 2009 at 2:53 PM, Michael Baird m...@tc3net.com wrote: Patrick works for Aperto, they don't support beamshaping/mimo or 802.16e, my Alvarion and Navini gear with the non-mimo subscriber radio (mimo on the tower) worked at a mile non-LOS. I appreciate the input, but it disputes my results in the field (rural heavily treed, not urban). Regards Michael Baird Self install won't work in 3650 beyond 1/4 mile, maybe 1/2 mile. Patrick has elaborated on this many times. - Mike Hammett Intelligent Computing Solutions http://www.ics-il.com -- From: Michael Baird m...@tc3net.com Sent: Tuesday, December 29, 2009 1:22 PM To: WISPA General List wireless@wispa.org Subject: [WISPA] Wimax gear We are looking for some more wimax gear to test for the 3.65 band, our basic criteria would be 802.16e/mimo, we've tested Alvarion gear already. We are looking for something that will work in an urban environment with self install radios, can deliver voice and if possible with PPP/NAT/DHCP in the radio rather then as an external gateway device. If any dealers out there would like to chime in or hit me off list I would appreciate it. Regards Michael Baird WISPA Wants You! Join today! http://signup.wispa.org/ WISPA Wireless List: wireless@wispa.org Subscribe/Unsubscribe: http://lists.wispa.org/mailman/listinfo/wireless Archives: http://lists.wispa.org/pipermail/wireless/ WISPA Wants You! Join today! http://signup.wispa.org/ WISPA Wireless List: wireless@wispa.org Subscribe/Unsubscribe: http://lists.wispa.org/mailman/listinfo/wireless Archives: http://lists.wispa.org/pipermail/wireless/ WISPA Wants You! Join today! http://signup.wispa.org/ WISPA Wireless List: wireless@wispa.org Subscribe/Unsubscribe: http://lists.wispa.org/mailman/listinfo/wireless Archives: http://lists.wispa.org/pipermail/wireless/ WISPA Wants You! Join today! http://signup.wispa.org/ WISPA Wireless List: wireless@wispa.org Subscribe/Unsubscribe: http://lists.wispa.org/mailman/listinfo/wireless Archives: http://lists.wispa.org/pipermail/wireless/ WISPA Wants You! Join today! http://signup.wispa.org/ WISPA Wireless List: wireless@wispa.org Subscribe/Unsubscribe: http://lists.wispa.org/mailman/listinfo/wireless Archives: http://lists.wispa.org/pipermail/wireless/
Re: [WISPA] Wimax gear
What you are asking for is going to be priced accordingly. If you are looking for low cost 3.65 it's going to be Tranzeo or Ubiquity cards on MT. One interesting combination is that Tranzeo makes CPE's that inter-operate with Redline. We'll wait for CAP320 as screwing with anything lese is a waste of our time and energy. Jerry -Original Message- From: wireless-boun...@wispa.org [mailto:wireless-boun...@wispa.org] On Behalf Of Michael Baird Sent: Tuesday, December 29, 2009 11:44 AM To: WISPA General List Subject: Re: [WISPA] Wimax gear Gino, Where can I find detailed info on the product there doesn't seem to be much available in regards to it's routing features. I'm also concerned about the CPE cost/licenses that's what drove us from Canopy before. Regards Michael Baird Wait for q1 release of the Canopy 320, all that and more Gino A. Villarini g...@aeronetpr.com Aeronet Wireless Broadband Corp. 787.273.4143 -Original Message- From: wireless-boun...@wispa.org [mailto:wireless-boun...@wispa.org] On Behalf Of Michael Baird Sent: Tuesday, December 29, 2009 3:22 PM To: WISPA General List Subject: [WISPA] Wimax gear We are looking for some more wimax gear to test for the 3.65 band, our basic criteria would be 802.16e/mimo, we've tested Alvarion gear already. We are looking for something that will work in an urban environment with self install radios, can deliver voice and if possible with PPP/NAT/DHCP in the radio rather then as an external gateway device. If any dealers out there would like to chime in or hit me off list I would appreciate it. Regards Michael Baird WISPA Wants You! Join today! http://signup.wispa.org/ WISPA Wireless List: wireless@wispa.org Subscribe/Unsubscribe: http://lists.wispa.org/mailman/listinfo/wireless Archives: http://lists.wispa.org/pipermail/wireless/ WISPA Wants You! Join today! http://signup.wispa.org/ WISPA Wireless List: wireless@wispa.org Subscribe/Unsubscribe: http://lists.wispa.org/mailman/listinfo/wireless Archives: http://lists.wispa.org/pipermail/wireless/ WISPA Wants You! Join today! http://signup.wispa.org/ WISPA Wireless List: wireless@wispa.org Subscribe/Unsubscribe: http://lists.wispa.org/mailman/listinfo/wireless Archives: http://lists.wispa.org/pipermail/wireless/ WISPA Wants You! Join today! http://signup.wispa.org/ WISPA Wireless List: wireless@wispa.org Subscribe/Unsubscribe: http://lists.wispa.org/mailman/listinfo/wireless Archives: http://lists.wispa.org/pipermail/wireless/
Re: [WISPA] Wimax gear
Q3 is a better guess I think... Travis Microserv Gino Villarini wrote: Wait for q1 release of the Canopy 320, all that and more Gino A. Villarini g...@aeronetpr.com Aeronet Wireless Broadband Corp. 787.273.4143 -Original Message- From: wireless-boun...@wispa.org [mailto:wireless-boun...@wispa.org] On Behalf Of Michael Baird Sent: Tuesday, December 29, 2009 3:22 PM To: WISPA General List Subject: [WISPA] Wimax gear We are looking for some more wimax gear to test for the 3.65 band, our basic criteria would be 802.16e/mimo, we've tested Alvarion gear already. We are looking for something that will work in an urban environment with self install radios, can deliver voice and if possible with PPP/NAT/DHCP in the radio rather then as an external gateway device. If any dealers out there would like to chime in or hit me off list I would appreciate it. Regards Michael Baird WISPA Wants You! Join today! http://signup.wispa.org/ WISPA Wireless List: wireless@wispa.org Subscribe/Unsubscribe: http://lists.wispa.org/mailman/listinfo/wireless Archives: http://lists.wispa.org/pipermail/wireless/ WISPA Wants You! Join today! http://signup.wispa.org/ WISPA Wireless List: wireless@wispa.org Subscribe/Unsubscribe: http://lists.wispa.org/mailman/listinfo/wireless Archives: http://lists.wispa.org/pipermail/wireless/ WISPA Wants You! Join today! http://signup.wispa.org/ WISPA Wireless List: wireless@wispa.org Subscribe/Unsubscribe: http://lists.wispa.org/mailman/listinfo/wireless Archives: http://lists.wispa.org/pipermail/wireless/
Re: [WISPA] Wimax gear
Good information. Keep in mind customer self installs != radio in truck bed. Josh Luthman Office: 937-552-2340 Direct: 937-552-2343 1100 Wayne St Suite 1337 Troy, OH 45373 The secret to creativity is knowing how to hide your sources. --- Albert Einstein On Tue, Dec 29, 2009 at 3:00 PM, Michael Baird m...@tc3net.com wrote: Josh, I tested via a truck, I could take the Alvarion unit and put it on the back seat of the extended cab, and it worked everywhere within a mile radius I drove to. This was an outdoor unit with a 14.5 db panel, strictly speaking I was testing outdoor (I wanted SI's from Alvarion but they aren't available for 3.65 yet). I was supposing that the SI with a multiple antenna array and higher transmit would perform similarily to a radio sitting flat on the seat of a truck, maybe it was a bad supposition. Regards Michael Baird Are you (Michael) talking about self install or outdoor install? Mike (Hammett) is talking about self installs. Josh Luthman Office: 937-552-2340 Direct: 937-552-2343 1100 Wayne St Suite 1337 Troy, OH 45373 The secret to creativity is knowing how to hide your sources. --- Albert Einstein On Tue, Dec 29, 2009 at 2:53 PM, Michael Baird m...@tc3net.com wrote: Patrick works for Aperto, they don't support beamshaping/mimo or 802.16e, my Alvarion and Navini gear with the non-mimo subscriber radio (mimo on the tower) worked at a mile non-LOS. I appreciate the input, but it disputes my results in the field (rural heavily treed, not urban). Regards Michael Baird Self install won't work in 3650 beyond 1/4 mile, maybe 1/2 mile. Patrick has elaborated on this many times. - Mike Hammett Intelligent Computing Solutions http://www.ics-il.com -- From: Michael Baird m...@tc3net.com Sent: Tuesday, December 29, 2009 1:22 PM To: WISPA General List wireless@wispa.org Subject: [WISPA] Wimax gear We are looking for some more wimax gear to test for the 3.65 band, our basic criteria would be 802.16e/mimo, we've tested Alvarion gear already. We are looking for something that will work in an urban environment with self install radios, can deliver voice and if possible with PPP/NAT/DHCP in the radio rather then as an external gateway device. If any dealers out there would like to chime in or hit me off list I would appreciate it. Regards Michael Baird WISPA Wants You! Join today! http://signup.wispa.org/ WISPA Wireless List: wireless@wispa.org Subscribe/Unsubscribe: http://lists.wispa.org/mailman/listinfo/wireless Archives: http://lists.wispa.org/pipermail/wireless/ WISPA Wants You! Join today! http://signup.wispa.org/ WISPA Wireless List: wireless@wispa.org Subscribe/Unsubscribe: http://lists.wispa.org/mailman/listinfo/wireless Archives: http://lists.wispa.org/pipermail/wireless/ WISPA Wants You! Join today! http://signup.wispa.org/ WISPA Wireless List: wireless@wispa.org Subscribe/Unsubscribe: http://lists.wispa.org/mailman/listinfo/wireless Archives: http://lists.wispa.org/pipermail/wireless/ WISPA Wants You! Join today! http://signup.wispa.org/ WISPA Wireless List: wireless@wispa.org Subscribe/Unsubscribe: http://lists.wispa.org/mailman/listinfo/wireless Archives: http://lists.wispa.org/pipermail/wireless/ WISPA Wants You! Join today! http://signup.wispa.org/ WISPA Wireless List: wireless@wispa.org Subscribe/Unsubscribe: http://lists.wispa.org/mailman/listinfo/wireless Archives: http://lists.wispa.org/pipermail/wireless/ WISPA Wants You! Join today! http://signup.wispa.org/ WISPA Wireless List: wireless@wispa.org Subscribe/Unsubscribe: http://lists.wispa.org/mailman/listinfo/wireless Archives: http://lists.wispa.org/pipermail/wireless/
Re: [WISPA] Wimax gear
Ouch :-( Gino A. Villarini g...@aeronetpr.com Aeronet Wireless Broadband Corp. 787.273.4143 -Original Message- From: wireless-boun...@wispa.org [mailto:wireless-boun...@wispa.org] On Behalf Of Travis Johnson Sent: Tuesday, December 29, 2009 4:09 PM To: WISPA General List Subject: Re: [WISPA] Wimax gear Q3 is a better guess I think... Travis Microserv Gino Villarini wrote: Wait for q1 release of the Canopy 320, all that and more Gino A. Villarini g...@aeronetpr.com Aeronet Wireless Broadband Corp. 787.273.4143 -Original Message- From: wireless-boun...@wispa.org [mailto:wireless-boun...@wispa.org] On Behalf Of Michael Baird Sent: Tuesday, December 29, 2009 3:22 PM To: WISPA General List Subject: [WISPA] Wimax gear We are looking for some more wimax gear to test for the 3.65 band, our basic criteria would be 802.16e/mimo, we've tested Alvarion gear already. We are looking for something that will work in an urban environment with self install radios, can deliver voice and if possible with PPP/NAT/DHCP in the radio rather then as an external gateway device. If any dealers out there would like to chime in or hit me off list I would appreciate it. Regards Michael Baird WISPA Wants You! Join today! http://signup.wispa.org/ WISPA Wireless List: wireless@wispa.org Subscribe/Unsubscribe: http://lists.wispa.org/mailman/listinfo/wireless Archives: http://lists.wispa.org/pipermail/wireless/ WISPA Wants You! Join today! http://signup.wispa.org/ WISPA Wireless List: wireless@wispa.org Subscribe/Unsubscribe: http://lists.wispa.org/mailman/listinfo/wireless Archives: http://lists.wispa.org/pipermail/wireless/ WISPA Wants You! Join today! http://signup.wispa.org/ WISPA Wireless List: wireless@wispa.org Subscribe/Unsubscribe: http://lists.wispa.org/mailman/listinfo/wireless Archives: http://lists.wispa.org/pipermail/wireless/ WISPA Wants You! Join today! http://signup.wispa.org/ WISPA Wireless List: wireless@wispa.org Subscribe/Unsubscribe: http://lists.wispa.org/mailman/listinfo/wireless Archives: http://lists.wispa.org/pipermail/wireless/
Re: [WISPA] Wimax gear
Back seat of truck facing the roof, not truck bed. Regards Michael Baird Good information. Keep in mind customer self installs != radio in truck bed. Josh Luthman Office: 937-552-2340 Direct: 937-552-2343 1100 Wayne St Suite 1337 Troy, OH 45373 The secret to creativity is knowing how to hide your sources. --- Albert Einstein On Tue, Dec 29, 2009 at 3:00 PM, Michael Baird m...@tc3net.com wrote: Josh, I tested via a truck, I could take the Alvarion unit and put it on the back seat of the extended cab, and it worked everywhere within a mile radius I drove to. This was an outdoor unit with a 14.5 db panel, strictly speaking I was testing outdoor (I wanted SI's from Alvarion but they aren't available for 3.65 yet). I was supposing that the SI with a multiple antenna array and higher transmit would perform similarily to a radio sitting flat on the seat of a truck, maybe it was a bad supposition. Regards Michael Baird Are you (Michael) talking about self install or outdoor install? Mike (Hammett) is talking about self installs. Josh Luthman Office: 937-552-2340 Direct: 937-552-2343 1100 Wayne St Suite 1337 Troy, OH 45373 The secret to creativity is knowing how to hide your sources. --- Albert Einstein On Tue, Dec 29, 2009 at 2:53 PM, Michael Baird m...@tc3net.com wrote: Patrick works for Aperto, they don't support beamshaping/mimo or 802.16e, my Alvarion and Navini gear with the non-mimo subscriber radio (mimo on the tower) worked at a mile non-LOS. I appreciate the input, but it disputes my results in the field (rural heavily treed, not urban). Regards Michael Baird Self install won't work in 3650 beyond 1/4 mile, maybe 1/2 mile. Patrick has elaborated on this many times. - Mike Hammett Intelligent Computing Solutions http://www.ics-il.com -- From: Michael Baird m...@tc3net.com Sent: Tuesday, December 29, 2009 1:22 PM To: WISPA General List wireless@wispa.org Subject: [WISPA] Wimax gear We are looking for some more wimax gear to test for the 3.65 band, our basic criteria would be 802.16e/mimo, we've tested Alvarion gear already. We are looking for something that will work in an urban environment with self install radios, can deliver voice and if possible with PPP/NAT/DHCP in the radio rather then as an external gateway device. If any dealers out there would like to chime in or hit me off list I would appreciate it. Regards Michael Baird WISPA Wants You! Join today! http://signup.wispa.org/ WISPA Wireless List: wireless@wispa.org Subscribe/Unsubscribe: http://lists.wispa.org/mailman/listinfo/wireless Archives: http://lists.wispa.org/pipermail/wireless/ WISPA Wants You! Join today! http://signup.wispa.org/ WISPA Wireless List: wireless@wispa.org Subscribe/Unsubscribe: http://lists.wispa.org/mailman/listinfo/wireless Archives: http://lists.wispa.org/pipermail/wireless/ WISPA Wants You! Join today! http://signup.wispa.org/ WISPA Wireless List: wireless@wispa.org Subscribe/Unsubscribe: http://lists.wispa.org/mailman/listinfo/wireless Archives: http://lists.wispa.org/pipermail/wireless/ WISPA Wants You! Join today! http://signup.wispa.org/ WISPA Wireless List: wireless@wispa.org Subscribe/Unsubscribe: http://lists.wispa.org/mailman/listinfo/wireless Archives: http://lists.wispa.org/pipermail/wireless/ WISPA Wants You! Join today! http://signup.wispa.org/ WISPA Wireless List: wireless@wispa.org Subscribe/Unsubscribe: http://lists.wispa.org/mailman/listinfo/wireless Archives: http://lists.wispa.org/pipermail/wireless/ WISPA Wants You! Join today! http://signup.wispa.org
Re: [WISPA] Wimax gear
That's what I had in my head typed it out wrong. Do you have much foliage in the way? Was this all LOS driving around? I would imagine once you get inside a house things changes drastically coming from a truck. Josh Luthman Office: 937-552-2340 Direct: 937-552-2343 1100 Wayne St Suite 1337 Troy, OH 45373 The secret to creativity is knowing how to hide your sources. --- Albert Einstein On Tue, Dec 29, 2009 at 3:19 PM, Michael Baird m...@tc3net.com wrote: Back seat of truck facing the roof, not truck bed. Regards Michael Baird Good information. Keep in mind customer self installs != radio in truck bed. Josh Luthman Office: 937-552-2340 Direct: 937-552-2343 1100 Wayne St Suite 1337 Troy, OH 45373 The secret to creativity is knowing how to hide your sources. --- Albert Einstein On Tue, Dec 29, 2009 at 3:00 PM, Michael Baird m...@tc3net.com wrote: Josh, I tested via a truck, I could take the Alvarion unit and put it on the back seat of the extended cab, and it worked everywhere within a mile radius I drove to. This was an outdoor unit with a 14.5 db panel, strictly speaking I was testing outdoor (I wanted SI's from Alvarion but they aren't available for 3.65 yet). I was supposing that the SI with a multiple antenna array and higher transmit would perform similarily to a radio sitting flat on the seat of a truck, maybe it was a bad supposition. Regards Michael Baird Are you (Michael) talking about self install or outdoor install? Mike (Hammett) is talking about self installs. Josh Luthman Office: 937-552-2340 Direct: 937-552-2343 1100 Wayne St Suite 1337 Troy, OH 45373 The secret to creativity is knowing how to hide your sources. --- Albert Einstein On Tue, Dec 29, 2009 at 2:53 PM, Michael Baird m...@tc3net.com wrote: Patrick works for Aperto, they don't support beamshaping/mimo or 802.16e, my Alvarion and Navini gear with the non-mimo subscriber radio (mimo on the tower) worked at a mile non-LOS. I appreciate the input, but it disputes my results in the field (rural heavily treed, not urban). Regards Michael Baird Self install won't work in 3650 beyond 1/4 mile, maybe 1/2 mile. Patrick has elaborated on this many times. - Mike Hammett Intelligent Computing Solutions http://www.ics-il.com -- From: Michael Baird m...@tc3net.com Sent: Tuesday, December 29, 2009 1:22 PM To: WISPA General List wireless@wispa.org Subject: [WISPA] Wimax gear We are looking for some more wimax gear to test for the 3.65 band, our basic criteria would be 802.16e/mimo, we've tested Alvarion gear already. We are looking for something that will work in an urban environment with self install radios, can deliver voice and if possible with PPP/NAT/DHCP in the radio rather then as an external gateway device. If any dealers out there would like to chime in or hit me off list I would appreciate it. Regards Michael Baird WISPA Wants You! Join today! http://signup.wispa.org/ WISPA Wireless List: wireless@wispa.org Subscribe/Unsubscribe: http://lists.wispa.org/mailman/listinfo/wireless Archives: http://lists.wispa.org/pipermail/wireless/ WISPA Wants You! Join today! http://signup.wispa.org/ WISPA Wireless List: wireless@wispa.org Subscribe/Unsubscribe: http://lists.wispa.org/mailman/listinfo/wireless Archives: http://lists.wispa.org/pipermail/wireless/ WISPA Wants You! Join today! http://signup.wispa.org/ WISPA Wireless List: wireless@wispa.org Subscribe/Unsubscribe: http://lists.wispa.org/mailman/listinfo/wireless Archives: http://lists.wispa.org/pipermail/wireless/ WISPA Wants You! Join today! http://signup.wispa.org/ WISPA Wireless List: wireless@wispa.org Subscribe/Unsubscribe: http://lists.wispa.org/mailman/listinfo/wireless Archives: http://lists.wispa.org/pipermail/wireless/ WISPA Wants You! Join today! http://signup.wispa.org
Re: [WISPA] Wimax gear
Why is your basic criteria .16e with MIMO (or .16e at all)? All .16e gets you in 3.65 GHz is much more (30% more) latency, less throughput per MHz, higher overhead and more cost. And you won't get any hope for interoperability, indoor modems, USB dongles or PC cards, since those are only applicable to licensed bands. Patrick Leary Aperto Networks 813.426.4230 mobile -Original Message- From: wireless-boun...@wispa.org [mailto:wireless-boun...@wispa.org] On Behalf Of Michael Baird Sent: Tuesday, December 29, 2009 11:22 AM To: WISPA General List Subject: [WISPA] Wimax gear We are looking for some more wimax gear to test for the 3.65 band, our basic criteria would be 802.16e/mimo, we've tested Alvarion gear already. We are looking for something that will work in an urban environment with self install radios, can deliver voice and if possible with PPP/NAT/DHCP in the radio rather then as an external gateway device. If any dealers out there would like to chime in or hit me off list I would appreciate it. Regards Michael Baird WISPA Wants You! Join today! http://signup.wispa.org/ WISPA Wireless List: wireless@wispa.org Subscribe/Unsubscribe: http://lists.wispa.org/mailman/listinfo/wireless Archives: http://lists.wispa.org/pipermail/wireless/ WISPA Wants You! Join today! http://signup.wispa.org/ WISPA Wireless List: wireless@wispa.org Subscribe/Unsubscribe: http://lists.wispa.org/mailman/listinfo/wireless Archives: http://lists.wispa.org/pipermail/wireless/
Re: [WISPA] Wimax gear
Is supporting 802.16e really needed ? If you are providing your own CPEs, 802.16d, pre-WiMAX or Navini CDMA with beamforming could work just fine costing much less. I've tested Redline RedMAX self-install 16d unit and 16d base station and would give it a try on the real environment you wanna cover. I've also tested 802.16e gear with MIMO or Beamforming (but not MIMO+BF on the same product) and although they impressed me for building indoor coverage, they all suffered to work on a park very much like NYC's Central Park. Rubens On Tue, Dec 29, 2009 at 5:53 PM, Michael Baird m...@tc3net.com wrote: Patrick works for Aperto, they don't support beamshaping/mimo or 802.16e, my Alvarion and Navini gear with the non-mimo subscriber radio (mimo on the tower) worked at a mile non-LOS. I appreciate the input, but it disputes my results in the field (rural heavily treed, not urban). Regards Michael Baird Self install won't work in 3650 beyond 1/4 mile, maybe 1/2 mile. Patrick has elaborated on this many times. - Mike Hammett Intelligent Computing Solutions http://www.ics-il.com -- From: Michael Baird m...@tc3net.com Sent: Tuesday, December 29, 2009 1:22 PM To: WISPA General List wireless@wispa.org Subject: [WISPA] Wimax gear We are looking for some more wimax gear to test for the 3.65 band, our basic criteria would be 802.16e/mimo, we've tested Alvarion gear already. We are looking for something that will work in an urban environment with self install radios, can deliver voice and if possible with PPP/NAT/DHCP in the radio rather then as an external gateway device. If any dealers out there would like to chime in or hit me off list I would appreciate it. Regards Michael Baird WISPA Wants You! Join today! http://signup.wispa.org/ WISPA Wireless List: wireless@wispa.org Subscribe/Unsubscribe: http://lists.wispa.org/mailman/listinfo/wireless Archives: http://lists.wispa.org/pipermail/wireless/ WISPA Wants You! Join today! http://signup.wispa.org/ WISPA Wireless List: wireless@wispa.org Subscribe/Unsubscribe: http://lists.wispa.org/mailman/listinfo/wireless Archives: http://lists.wispa.org/pipermail/wireless/ WISPA Wants You! Join today! http://signup.wispa.org/ WISPA Wireless List: wireless@wispa.org Subscribe/Unsubscribe: http://lists.wispa.org/mailman/listinfo/wireless Archives: http://lists.wispa.org/pipermail/wireless/ WISPA Wants You! Join today! http://signup.wispa.org/ WISPA Wireless List: wireless@wispa.org Subscribe/Unsubscribe: http://lists.wispa.org/mailman/listinfo/wireless Archives: http://lists.wispa.org/pipermail/wireless/
Re: [WISPA] Wimax gear
Patrick, 16e is where the majority of the chipset development is at, and where companies such as Alcatel/Cisco/Motorola/Alvarion/Zyxel are focusing, and the new big deployments (Clearwire) are using 802.16e, and we want the ability to go to 802.16m when available. We also want to take advantage of the multipath enviroment utilizing mimo and wave 2 profiles. We have more hope of interoperability with 16e (Alvarion states such things with it's open initiative) then we do with 16d, although that isn't something we are counting on. Patrick, I realize you used to work for Alvarion, and now Aperto but you used to evangelize 802.16e and now you evangelize 802.16d, to us 802.16d is going to be the lesser of the two technologies and offers little advantage over our current wifi deployments, as we move to integrate voice into our wireless deployments and replace some of our wireline infrastructure and make a large investment in gear we want to be as future proof as possible. Regards Michael Baird Why is your basic criteria .16e with MIMO (or .16e at all)? All .16e gets you in 3.65 GHz is much more (30% more) latency, less throughput per MHz, higher overhead and more cost. And you won't get any hope for interoperability, indoor modems, USB dongles or PC cards, since those are only applicable to licensed bands. Patrick Leary Aperto Networks 813.426.4230 mobile -Original Message- From: wireless-boun...@wispa.org [mailto:wireless-boun...@wispa.org] On Behalf Of Michael Baird Sent: Tuesday, December 29, 2009 11:22 AM To: WISPA General List Subject: [WISPA] Wimax gear We are looking for some more wimax gear to test for the 3.65 band, our basic criteria would be 802.16e/mimo, we've tested Alvarion gear already. We are looking for something that will work in an urban environment with self install radios, can deliver voice and if possible with PPP/NAT/DHCP in the radio rather then as an external gateway device. If any dealers out there would like to chime in or hit me off list I would appreciate it. Regards Michael Baird WISPA Wants You! Join today! http://signup.wispa.org/ WISPA Wireless List: wireless@wispa.org Subscribe/Unsubscribe: http://lists.wispa.org/mailman/listinfo/wireless Archives: http://lists.wispa.org/pipermail/wireless/ WISPA Wants You! Join today! http://signup.wispa.org/ WISPA Wireless List: wireless@wispa.org Subscribe/Unsubscribe: http://lists.wispa.org/mailman/listinfo/wireless Archives: http://lists.wispa.org/pipermail/wireless/ WISPA Wants You! Join today! http://signup.wispa.org/ WISPA Wireless List: wireless@wispa.org Subscribe/Unsubscribe: http://lists.wispa.org/mailman/listinfo/wireless Archives: http://lists.wispa.org/pipermail/wireless/
Re: [WISPA] Wimax gear
On Tue, Dec 29, 2009 at 7:28 PM, Michael Baird m...@tc3net.com wrote: Patrick, 16e is where the majority of the chipset development is at, and where companies such as Alcatel/Cisco/Motorola/Alvarion/Zyxel are focusing, and the new big deployments (Clearwire) are using 802.16e, and we want the ability to go to 802.16m when available. We also want to take 802.16m will be almost as apart from 16e as 16e is from a 16d on a radio stand-point; network-wise 16m will follow 16e pretty close, but that is only unfortunate as 16e requires more of a cellular structure (BTS, BSC, so forth) which is not a WISP usually wants. advantage of the multipath enviroment utilizing mimo and wave 2 profiles. We have more hope of interoperability with 16e (Alvarion states such things with it's open initiative) then we do with 16d, although that isn't something we are counting on. I've heard too many promises from Alvarion to believe any of them. My previous employer is still waiting for some features and certifications on the BreezeMAX 16d gear they bought. Patrick, I realize you used to work for Alvarion, and now Aperto but you used to evangelize 802.16e and now you evangelize 802.16d, to us 802.16d is going to be the lesser of the two technologies and offers little advantage over our current wifi deployments, as we move to integrate WiMAX has significant advantages in channel access method compared to Wi-Fi. Proprietary gear like Alvarion VL, Aperto PacketWave and Motorola Canopy has the same advantages and one can hope that Mikrotik Nstreme and Ubiquiti AirMax evolve enough to achieve such a good pps performance, but that is not the situation right now. Regarding NLOS, I've found that the OFDM symbol proportion used in WiMAX also gives better NLOS performance than Wi-Fi. May be one day a new Atheros chipset may come by with such a feature... voice into our wireless deployments and replace some of our wireline infrastructure and make a large investment in gear we want to be as future proof as possible. Managing voice and data is mainly a channel access issue (QoS in marketing lingo), and 2nd a pps (packets per second) issue, both not what Wi-Fi does best. Personally I would convert more wireless to wireline than the other way around... Rubens WISPA Wants You! Join today! http://signup.wispa.org/ WISPA Wireless List: wireless@wispa.org Subscribe/Unsubscribe: http://lists.wispa.org/mailman/listinfo/wireless Archives: http://lists.wispa.org/pipermail/wireless/
Re: [WISPA] Wimax gear
I used to drink the Koolaid, but in all fairness to Alvarion, there was much more hope for a .16e future back then. Today, not so much. LTE has already won and .16e will find only small, limited life and even less mass development. Even if it had a long life, .16m won't do you a lick of good in 3.65 GHz anymore than 16e will. These are subsets of standards that have zero to do with the type of networks all are building in 3.65 -- fixed. The FCC power and other rules simply do not make anything but fixed technically feasible. And when things are not technically feasible in scale, they will never be made to be economically feasible. That means that no one will invest any truly significant dollars to have end devices, interoperability and all that. 3.65 with WiMAX is GREAT for fixed, but people need to wake up from the misguided dream that any efforts on the mobile WiMAX front have applicability to 3.65. Trust me, the last person in the world the big companies in the WiMAX Forum (Intel, Huwaei, etc.) care about is a WISP owner and they have zero interest in developing products for you. The only possible exception might be Motorola, but their offer of a 3.65 GHz product is less of an effort to support WISPs compared to finding a home for their sunk investment in WiMAX because they will never re-coup it on the carrier front -- that glossy dream has vanished. (Regardless of their motives, it is a good -- if late -- move on their part in my view.) I understand your fervent hopes and dreams here, but what I am telling you will save you much pain and wasted investment and cost if you can accept it. Anyone trying to translate serious .16e/m/etc benefits to the fixed/3.65 (beyond the slight range advantage of diversity, but at what cost) world greatly misunderstands the space because every facet -- technical, social, political and economic -- work against you in this debate. It is a fact, come to it sooner or later, but it is still a fact. P.S. -- Alcatel dumped mobile WiMAX development many months ago and the ranks of those dumping it continues to swell. Those who do not dump it will find their lunch eaten by Huwaei, who is being subsidized below cost by the Chinese government in a global strategic effort to capture a major share of the global telecom market. Huwaei then (in my opinion) uses its capture of .16e customers as the Trojan Horse to convert that customer to LTE later. Patrick Leary Aperto Networks 813.426.4230 mobile -Original Message- From: wireless-boun...@wispa.org [mailto:wireless-boun...@wispa.org] On Behalf Of Michael Baird Sent: Tuesday, December 29, 2009 1:28 PM To: WISPA General List Subject: Re: [WISPA] Wimax gear Patrick, 16e is where the majority of the chipset development is at, and where companies such as Alcatel/Cisco/Motorola/Alvarion/Zyxel are focusing, and the new big deployments (Clearwire) are using 802.16e, and we want the ability to go to 802.16m when available. We also want to take advantage of the multipath enviroment utilizing mimo and wave 2 profiles. We have more hope of interoperability with 16e (Alvarion states such things with it's open initiative) then we do with 16d, although that isn't something we are counting on. Patrick, I realize you used to work for Alvarion, and now Aperto but you used to evangelize 802.16e and now you evangelize 802.16d, to us 802.16d is going to be the lesser of the two technologies and offers little advantage over our current wifi deployments, as we move to integrate voice into our wireless deployments and replace some of our wireline infrastructure and make a large investment in gear we want to be as future proof as possible. Regards Michael Baird Why is your basic criteria .16e with MIMO (or .16e at all)? All .16e gets you in 3.65 GHz is much more (30% more) latency, less throughput per MHz, higher overhead and more cost. And you won't get any hope for interoperability, indoor modems, USB dongles or PC cards, since those are only applicable to licensed bands. Patrick Leary Aperto Networks 813.426.4230 mobile -Original Message- From: wireless-boun...@wispa.org [mailto:wireless-boun...@wispa.org] On Behalf Of Michael Baird Sent: Tuesday, December 29, 2009 11:22 AM To: WISPA General List Subject: [WISPA] Wimax gear We are looking for some more wimax gear to test for the 3.65 band, our basic criteria would be 802.16e/mimo, we've tested Alvarion gear already. We are looking for something that will work in an urban environment with self install radios, can deliver voice and if possible with PPP/NAT/DHCP in the radio rather then as an external gateway device. If any dealers out there would like to chime in or hit me off list I would appreciate it. Regards Michael Baird -- -- WISPA Wants You! Join today! http://signup.wispa.org
Re: [WISPA] Wimax gear
Less? Moto is comming out with a 16e system with 4.5 bits per hz using mimo Sent from my Motorola Startac... On Dec 29, 2009, at 4:45 PM, Patrick Leary ple...@apertonet.com wrote: Why is your basic criteria .16e with MIMO (or .16e at all)? All .16e gets you in 3.65 GHz is much more (30% more) latency, less throughput per MHz, higher overhead and more cost. And you won't get any hope for interoperability, indoor modems, USB dongles or PC cards, since those are only applicable to licensed bands. Patrick Leary Aperto Networks 813.426.4230 mobile -Original Message- From: wireless-boun...@wispa.org [mailto:wireless-boun...@wispa.org] On Behalf Of Michael Baird Sent: Tuesday, December 29, 2009 11:22 AM To: WISPA General List Subject: [WISPA] Wimax gear We are looking for some more wimax gear to test for the 3.65 band, our basic criteria would be 802.16e/mimo, we've tested Alvarion gear already. We are looking for something that will work in an urban environment with self install radios, can deliver voice and if possible with PPP/NAT/DHCP in the radio rather then as an external gateway device. If any dealers out there would like to chime in or hit me off list I would appreciate it. Regards Michael Baird --- - WISPA Wants You! Join today! http://signup.wispa.org/ --- - WISPA Wireless List: wireless@wispa.org Subscribe/Unsubscribe: http://lists.wispa.org/mailman/listinfo/wireless Archives: http://lists.wispa.org/pipermail/wireless/ --- --- --- --- WISPA Wants You! Join today! http://signup.wispa.org/ --- --- --- --- WISPA Wireless List: wireless@wispa.org Subscribe/Unsubscribe: http://lists.wispa.org/mailman/listinfo/wireless Archives: http://lists.wispa.org/pipermail/wireless/ WISPA Wants You! Join today! http://signup.wispa.org/ WISPA Wireless List: wireless@wispa.org Subscribe/Unsubscribe: http://lists.wispa.org/mailman/listinfo/wireless Archives: http://lists.wispa.org/pipermail/wireless/
Re: [WISPA] Wimax gear
with and accept in order to also have the highly valuable higher spectral efficiency that MIMO might deliver? Its possible that Wimax-D might not be the leader in spectral efficiency anymore. At minimum, I can argue that MIMO systems will clearly be putting the price pressure on WiMax vendors, or for that matter any Vendor stuck on legacy single stream RF designs. I'd argue MIMO in 3650 could be very attractive even if in Dual Pol config, simply because there is so little spectrum, and starting new, the RF community could be made to conform to dual pol designs easier. I can tell you, I personally will not pass judgement one way or the other on this topic. What I will say is interesting new dynamics are being explored, and we are testing technology. Tom DeReggi RapidDSL Wireless, Inc IntAirNet- Fixed Wireless Broadband - Original Message - From: Patrick Leary ple...@apertonet.com To: WISPA General List wireless@wispa.org Sent: Tuesday, December 29, 2009 3:44 PM Subject: Re: [WISPA] Wimax gear Why is your basic criteria .16e with MIMO (or .16e at all)? All .16e gets you in 3.65 GHz is much more (30% more) latency, less throughput per MHz, higher overhead and more cost. And you won't get any hope for interoperability, indoor modems, USB dongles or PC cards, since those are only applicable to licensed bands. Patrick Leary Aperto Networks 813.426.4230 mobile -Original Message- From: wireless-boun...@wispa.org [mailto:wireless-boun...@wispa.org] On Behalf Of Michael Baird Sent: Tuesday, December 29, 2009 11:22 AM To: WISPA General List Subject: [WISPA] Wimax gear We are looking for some more wimax gear to test for the 3.65 band, our basic criteria would be 802.16e/mimo, we've tested Alvarion gear already. We are looking for something that will work in an urban environment with self install radios, can deliver voice and if possible with PPP/NAT/DHCP in the radio rather then as an external gateway device. If any dealers out there would like to chime in or hit me off list I would appreciate it. Regards Michael Baird WISPA Wants You! Join today! http://signup.wispa.org/ WISPA Wireless List: wireless@wispa.org Subscribe/Unsubscribe: http://lists.wispa.org/mailman/listinfo/wireless Archives: http://lists.wispa.org/pipermail/wireless/ WISPA Wants You! Join today! http://signup.wispa.org/ WISPA Wireless List: wireless@wispa.org Subscribe/Unsubscribe: http://lists.wispa.org/mailman/listinfo/wireless Archives: http://lists.wispa.org/pipermail/wireless/ -- Internal Virus Database is out-of-date. Checked by AVG. Version: 7.5.560 / Virus Database: 270.12.26/2116 - Release Date: 5/15/2009 6:16 AM WISPA Wants You! Join today! http://signup.wispa.org/ WISPA Wireless List: wireless@wispa.org Subscribe/Unsubscribe: http://lists.wispa.org/mailman/listinfo/wireless Archives: http://lists.wispa.org/pipermail/wireless/
Re: [WISPA] Wimax gear
moto Did you mean they are comming out with soon? or did you really mean they are talking about comming out with? In WISP time, there is a big difference. Yeah, it would be cool if that was comming in the near future at current Canopy level price points. But that is an if. Tom DeReggi RapidDSL Wireless, Inc IntAirNet- Fixed Wireless Broadband - Original Message - From: Gino Villarini g...@aeronetpr.com To: WISPA General List wireless@wispa.org Cc: WISPA General List wireless@wispa.org Sent: Tuesday, December 29, 2009 5:05 PM Subject: Re: [WISPA] Wimax gear Less? Moto is comming out with a 16e system with 4.5 bits per hz using mimo Sent from my Motorola Startac... On Dec 29, 2009, at 4:45 PM, Patrick Leary ple...@apertonet.com wrote: Why is your basic criteria .16e with MIMO (or .16e at all)? All .16e gets you in 3.65 GHz is much more (30% more) latency, less throughput per MHz, higher overhead and more cost. And you won't get any hope for interoperability, indoor modems, USB dongles or PC cards, since those are only applicable to licensed bands. Patrick Leary Aperto Networks 813.426.4230 mobile -Original Message- From: wireless-boun...@wispa.org [mailto:wireless-boun...@wispa.org] On Behalf Of Michael Baird Sent: Tuesday, December 29, 2009 11:22 AM To: WISPA General List Subject: [WISPA] Wimax gear We are looking for some more wimax gear to test for the 3.65 band, our basic criteria would be 802.16e/mimo, we've tested Alvarion gear already. We are looking for something that will work in an urban environment with self install radios, can deliver voice and if possible with PPP/NAT/DHCP in the radio rather then as an external gateway device. If any dealers out there would like to chime in or hit me off list I would appreciate it. Regards Michael Baird --- - WISPA Wants You! Join today! http://signup.wispa.org/ --- - WISPA Wireless List: wireless@wispa.org Subscribe/Unsubscribe: http://lists.wispa.org/mailman/listinfo/wireless Archives: http://lists.wispa.org/pipermail/wireless/ --- --- --- --- WISPA Wants You! Join today! http://signup.wispa.org/ --- --- --- --- WISPA Wireless List: wireless@wispa.org Subscribe/Unsubscribe: http://lists.wispa.org/mailman/listinfo/wireless Archives: http://lists.wispa.org/pipermail/wireless/ WISPA Wants You! Join today! http://signup.wispa.org/ WISPA Wireless List: wireless@wispa.org Subscribe/Unsubscribe: http://lists.wispa.org/mailman/listinfo/wireless Archives: http://lists.wispa.org/pipermail/wireless/ -- Internal Virus Database is out-of-date. Checked by AVG. Version: 7.5.560 / Virus Database: 270.12.26/2116 - Release Date: 5/15/2009 6:16 AM WISPA Wants You! Join today! http://signup.wispa.org/ WISPA Wireless List: wireless@wispa.org Subscribe/Unsubscribe: http://lists.wispa.org/mailman/listinfo/wireless Archives: http://lists.wispa.org/pipermail/wireless/
Re: [WISPA] Wimax gear
Soon as in q1 or q2 IIRC $350~ SM $3500~ AP Specs are in the website under 320 series Sent from my Motorola Startac... On Dec 29, 2009, at 6:50 PM, Tom DeReggi wirelessn...@rapiddsl.net wrote: moto Did you mean they are comming out with soon? or did you really mean they are talking about comming out with? In WISP time, there is a big difference. Yeah, it would be cool if that was comming in the near future at current Canopy level price points. But that is an if. Tom DeReggi RapidDSL Wireless, Inc IntAirNet- Fixed Wireless Broadband - Original Message - From: Gino Villarini g...@aeronetpr.com To: WISPA General List wireless@wispa.org Cc: WISPA General List wireless@wispa.org Sent: Tuesday, December 29, 2009 5:05 PM Subject: Re: [WISPA] Wimax gear Less? Moto is comming out with a 16e system with 4.5 bits per hz using mimo Sent from my Motorola Startac... On Dec 29, 2009, at 4:45 PM, Patrick Leary ple...@apertonet.com wrote: Why is your basic criteria .16e with MIMO (or .16e at all)? All .16e gets you in 3.65 GHz is much more (30% more) latency, less throughput per MHz, higher overhead and more cost. And you won't get any hope for interoperability, indoor modems, USB dongles or PC cards, since those are only applicable to licensed bands. Patrick Leary Aperto Networks 813.426.4230 mobile -Original Message- From: wireless-boun...@wispa.org [mailto:wireless-boun...@wispa.org] On Behalf Of Michael Baird Sent: Tuesday, December 29, 2009 11:22 AM To: WISPA General List Subject: [WISPA] Wimax gear We are looking for some more wimax gear to test for the 3.65 band, our basic criteria would be 802.16e/mimo, we've tested Alvarion gear already. We are looking for something that will work in an urban environment with self install radios, can deliver voice and if possible with PPP/NAT/DHCP in the radio rather then as an external gateway device. If any dealers out there would like to chime in or hit me off list I would appreciate it. Regards Michael Baird --- --- -- WISPA Wants You! Join today! http://signup.wispa.org/ --- --- -- WISPA Wireless List: wireless@wispa.org Subscribe/Unsubscribe: http://lists.wispa.org/mailman/listinfo/wireless Archives: http://lists.wispa.org/pipermail/wireless/ --- --- --- --- WISPA Wants You! Join today! http://signup.wispa.org/ --- --- --- --- WISPA Wireless List: wireless@wispa.org Subscribe/Unsubscribe: http://lists.wispa.org/mailman/listinfo/wireless Archives: http://lists.wispa.org/pipermail/wireless/ --- --- --- --- WISPA Wants You! Join today! http://signup.wispa.org/ --- --- --- --- WISPA Wireless List: wireless@wispa.org Subscribe/Unsubscribe: http://lists.wispa.org/mailman/listinfo/wireless Archives: http://lists.wispa.org/pipermail/wireless/ -- Internal Virus Database is out-of-date. Checked by AVG. Version: 7.5.560 / Virus Database: 270.12.26/2116 - Release Date: 5/15/2009 6:16 AM --- --- --- --- WISPA Wants You! Join today! http://signup.wispa.org/ --- --- --- --- WISPA Wireless List: wireless@wispa.org Subscribe/Unsubscribe: http://lists.wispa.org/mailman/listinfo/wireless Archives: http://lists.wispa.org/pipermail/wireless/ WISPA Wants You! Join today! http://signup.wispa.org/ WISPA Wireless List: wireless@wispa.org Subscribe/Unsubscribe: http://lists.wispa.org/mailman/listinfo/wireless Archives: http://lists.wispa.org/pipermail/wireless/
Re: [WISPA] Wimax gear
Everytime I see that pricing it makes me cringe... since I've seen Moto give pricing way before a product is actually set to release and its way off the mark. I hope it's right for Moto sake :-) Daniel White 3-dB Networks http://www.3dbnetworks.com dan...@3-db.net -Original Message- From: wireless-boun...@wispa.org [mailto:wireless-boun...@wispa.org] On Behalf Of Gino Villarini Sent: Tuesday, December 29, 2009 4:07 PM To: WISPA General List Subject: Re: [WISPA] Wimax gear Soon as in q1 or q2 IIRC $350~ SM $3500~ AP Specs are in the website under 320 series Sent from my Motorola Startac... On Dec 29, 2009, at 6:50 PM, Tom DeReggi wirelessn...@rapiddsl.net wrote: moto Did you mean they are comming out with soon? or did you really mean they are talking about comming out with? In WISP time, there is a big difference. Yeah, it would be cool if that was comming in the near future at current Canopy level price points. But that is an if. Tom DeReggi RapidDSL Wireless, Inc IntAirNet- Fixed Wireless Broadband - Original Message - From: Gino Villarini g...@aeronetpr.com To: WISPA General List wireless@wispa.org Cc: WISPA General List wireless@wispa.org Sent: Tuesday, December 29, 2009 5:05 PM Subject: Re: [WISPA] Wimax gear Less? Moto is comming out with a 16e system with 4.5 bits per hz using mimo Sent from my Motorola Startac... On Dec 29, 2009, at 4:45 PM, Patrick Leary ple...@apertonet.com wrote: Why is your basic criteria .16e with MIMO (or .16e at all)? All .16e gets you in 3.65 GHz is much more (30% more) latency, less throughput per MHz, higher overhead and more cost. And you won't get any hope for interoperability, indoor modems, USB dongles or PC cards, since those are only applicable to licensed bands. Patrick Leary Aperto Networks 813.426.4230 mobile -Original Message- From: wireless-boun...@wispa.org [mailto:wireless-boun...@wispa.org] On Behalf Of Michael Baird Sent: Tuesday, December 29, 2009 11:22 AM To: WISPA General List Subject: [WISPA] Wimax gear We are looking for some more wimax gear to test for the 3.65 band, our basic criteria would be 802.16e/mimo, we've tested Alvarion gear already. We are looking for something that will work in an urban environment with self install radios, can deliver voice and if possible with PPP/NAT/DHCP in the radio rather then as an external gateway device. If any dealers out there would like to chime in or hit me off list I would appreciate it. Regards Michael Baird --- --- -- WISPA Wants You! Join today! http://signup.wispa.org/ --- --- -- WISPA Wireless List: wireless@wispa.org Subscribe/Unsubscribe: http://lists.wispa.org/mailman/listinfo/wireless Archives: http://lists.wispa.org/pipermail/wireless/ --- --- --- --- WISPA Wants You! Join today! http://signup.wispa.org/ --- --- --- --- WISPA Wireless List: wireless@wispa.org Subscribe/Unsubscribe: http://lists.wispa.org/mailman/listinfo/wireless Archives: http://lists.wispa.org/pipermail/wireless/ --- --- --- --- WISPA Wants You! Join today! http://signup.wispa.org/ --- --- --- --- WISPA Wireless List: wireless@wispa.org Subscribe/Unsubscribe: http://lists.wispa.org/mailman/listinfo/wireless Archives: http://lists.wispa.org/pipermail/wireless/ -- Internal Virus Database is out-of-date. Checked by AVG. Version: 7.5.560 / Virus Database: 270.12.26/2116 - Release Date: 5/15/2009 6:16 AM --- --- --- --- WISPA Wants You! Join today! http://signup.wispa.org/ --- --- --- --- WISPA Wireless List: wireless@wispa.org Subscribe/Unsubscribe: http://lists.wispa.org/mailman/listinfo/wireless Archives: http://lists.wispa.org/pipermail/wireless/ WISPA Wants You! Join today! http://signup.wispa.org/ WISPA Wireless List: wireless@wispa.org Subscribe/Unsubscribe: http://lists.wispa.org/mailman/listinfo/wireless Archives: http://lists.wispa.org/pipermail/wireless/ WISPA Wants You! Join today! http://signup.wispa.org/ WISPA Wireless
Re: [WISPA] Wimax gear
And how is this product useful? 10 customers at 50/mo takes 140 months for an ROI. Assuming that's one AP. On 12/29/09, Gino Villarini g...@aeronetpr.com wrote: Soon as in q1 or q2 IIRC $350~ SM $3500~ AP Specs are in the website under 320 series Sent from my Motorola Startac... On Dec 29, 2009, at 6:50 PM, Tom DeReggi wirelessn...@rapiddsl.net wrote: moto Did you mean they are comming out with soon? or did you really mean they are talking about comming out with? In WISP time, there is a big difference. Yeah, it would be cool if that was comming in the near future at current Canopy level price points. But that is an if. Tom DeReggi RapidDSL Wireless, Inc IntAirNet- Fixed Wireless Broadband - Original Message - From: Gino Villarini g...@aeronetpr.com To: WISPA General List wireless@wispa.org Cc: WISPA General List wireless@wispa.org Sent: Tuesday, December 29, 2009 5:05 PM Subject: Re: [WISPA] Wimax gear Less? Moto is comming out with a 16e system with 4.5 bits per hz using mimo Sent from my Motorola Startac... On Dec 29, 2009, at 4:45 PM, Patrick Leary ple...@apertonet.com wrote: Why is your basic criteria .16e with MIMO (or .16e at all)? All .16e gets you in 3.65 GHz is much more (30% more) latency, less throughput per MHz, higher overhead and more cost. And you won't get any hope for interoperability, indoor modems, USB dongles or PC cards, since those are only applicable to licensed bands. Patrick Leary Aperto Networks 813.426.4230 mobile -Original Message- From: wireless-boun...@wispa.org [mailto:wireless-boun...@wispa.org] On Behalf Of Michael Baird Sent: Tuesday, December 29, 2009 11:22 AM To: WISPA General List Subject: [WISPA] Wimax gear We are looking for some more wimax gear to test for the 3.65 band, our basic criteria would be 802.16e/mimo, we've tested Alvarion gear already. We are looking for something that will work in an urban environment with self install radios, can deliver voice and if possible with PPP/NAT/DHCP in the radio rather then as an external gateway device. If any dealers out there would like to chime in or hit me off list I would appreciate it. Regards Michael Baird --- --- -- WISPA Wants You! Join today! http://signup.wispa.org/ --- --- -- WISPA Wireless List: wireless@wispa.org Subscribe/Unsubscribe: http://lists.wispa.org/mailman/listinfo/wireless Archives: http://lists.wispa.org/pipermail/wireless/ --- --- --- --- WISPA Wants You! Join today! http://signup.wispa.org/ --- --- --- --- WISPA Wireless List: wireless@wispa.org Subscribe/Unsubscribe: http://lists.wispa.org/mailman/listinfo/wireless Archives: http://lists.wispa.org/pipermail/wireless/ --- --- --- --- WISPA Wants You! Join today! http://signup.wispa.org/ --- --- --- --- WISPA Wireless List: wireless@wispa.org Subscribe/Unsubscribe: http://lists.wispa.org/mailman/listinfo/wireless Archives: http://lists.wispa.org/pipermail/wireless/ -- Internal Virus Database is out-of-date. Checked by AVG. Version: 7.5.560 / Virus Database: 270.12.26/2116 - Release Date: 5/15/2009 6:16 AM --- --- --- --- WISPA Wants You! Join today! http://signup.wispa.org/ --- --- --- --- WISPA Wireless List: wireless@wispa.org Subscribe/Unsubscribe: http://lists.wispa.org/mailman/listinfo/wireless Archives: http://lists.wispa.org/pipermail/wireless/ WISPA Wants You! Join today! http://signup.wispa.org/ WISPA Wireless List: wireless@wispa.org Subscribe/Unsubscribe: http://lists.wispa.org/mailman/listinfo/wireless Archives: http://lists.wispa.org/pipermail/wireless/ -- Josh Luthman Office: 937-552-2340 Direct: 937-552-2343 1100 Wayne St Suite 1337 Troy, OH 45373 The secret to creativity is knowing how to hide your sources. --- Albert Einstein WISPA Wants You! Join today! http://signup.wispa.org/ WISPA Wireless List: wireless@wispa.org Subscribe/Unsubscribe: http://lists.wispa.org/mailman/listinfo/wireless Archives: http://lists.wispa.org/pipermail/wireless/
Re: [WISPA] Wimax gear
LTE has already won and .16e will find only small, limited life and even less mass development. Do you see any point in small BRS/EBS (MMDS/ITFS) license holders deploying 802.16e in these frequency bands? Huwaei then (in my opinion) uses its capture of .16e customers as the Trojan Horse to convert that customer to LTE later. Is any development of LTE in the 2.5 band to make this even possible? -- Blake Covarrubias WISPA Wants You! Join today! http://signup.wispa.org/ WISPA Wireless List: wireless@wispa.org Subscribe/Unsubscribe: http://lists.wispa.org/mailman/listinfo/wireless Archives: http://lists.wispa.org/pipermail/wireless/
Re: [WISPA] Wimax gear
I hate to sabatage this 3650 thread, but I cant help myself, when 802.16e is mentioned for PtMP 1) Ubiquiti Mimo AP - $89, capacity up to 150 mb, (or maybe 50mbps might be more fair, for avg 20 Mhz channel 2x pole). 2) Mikroik AP MIMO- $400, capacity: same as Ubiquiti, but with Spectrum Analysis, and a bit of hassle added. 3) Wimax 802.16e AP (1 antenna) - $9000, capacity: more efficient use of 25 mbps. 4) Wimax 802.16d AP - ?? $2000 - $7000 ??, capacity: same as Legacy TDD OFDM, or CDMA OFDM if small channel in 3.65G. 5) Legacy TDD OFDM- $1800, up to 25 mbps. Better management than wifi 6) Legacy CDMA OFDM AP- $300, capacity like 14 mbps. 7) Legacy DSSS TDD - $1300, 10mbps In the transition from Legacy to next adjacent generation, the decissions might have been tough. I get it, when some justified WiMax. But as we jump to the current day, represented at the top of the chart with items #1 and #2, it is almost silly to even see 802.16e in the line-up. Ubiquiti offers 1/100th the price, at 2x to 6x higher capacity than Wimax, dependant on how you look at it. Lets get real, will a WISP still consider Wimax-e, just to get a few feature enhancements, that is if they were to use their OWN money? Sure, we might choose WiMax for a grant, when WiMax will help prove Never able to reach profitabilty, without aid. But thats a different game. Now, we also have to consider, just about all carriers other than Sprint, has preferred and will choose LTE. Its inevidable that LTE will extinguish the 802.16e carrier market, so we cant even argue 802.16e will help our exit strategy, anymore. Dont misunderstand me, I dont doubt WiMax's technology. Its good stuff. So my question is, when will 802.16e manufacturers admit their original target market, game plan, and price list is ancient history? Will recent industry developments force WiMax 802.16e carriers to lower their price points down to the levels that are in line with the WISP market's expectations? Surely, its technically possible to reach those price points, Ubiquiti proved that, even if with Wifi chipsets. Arguably, Intel could reach the same scale with 802.16e instantly, if manufacturers lowered the AP cost to sub $2000. Will the BTOP/BIP program prevent price drops? Why lower price, when Grant programs could keep the price high for atleast 3 more years, beyond what the private funded operators would normally allow? Ubiquiti has set the bar high for our industry, and has got to be the largest disruptive force to the ISP industry since Cogent drove transit low cost. Wimax has a challenge in front of them. They lost the carrier market, and if you ask me, they'll lose the WISP market to, if they dont lower their price and up their game. I agree, WISPs would rather a full featured WiMax product, but when its being compared against a $90 product that is like Wifi on steroids, its a new game. I predict there will be numerous manufacturers this year filling the market that Mikrotik is currently leading the effort to tackle. Its the markets where its realized that a $99 AP is not necessary, and compromises like giving up spectrum analysis cant be accepted, but where manufacturers will challenge themselve to see how close to the price point they can get, without compromising advanced features. History showed us that Consumers will choose Linksys over Cisco. Eventually Cisco realized they had to become Linksys, in some capacity. Tom DeReggi RapidDSL Wireless, Inc IntAirNet- Fixed Wireless Broadband WISPA Wants You! Join today! http://signup.wispa.org/ WISPA Wireless List: wireless@wispa.org Subscribe/Unsubscribe: http://lists.wispa.org/mailman/listinfo/wireless Archives: http://lists.wispa.org/pipermail/wireless/
Re: [WISPA] Wimax gear
BRS/EBS is a different story entirely and the only place where .16e has a reasonable home in my opinion. The power allows for a zero truck roll model, meaning self-install indoor modems become viable. But that comes with some cost. I believe in BRS/EBS it makes sense to invest in a 5 meter clutter study so you know EXACTLY which addresses you can connect at the right modulation and do not vary from that plan. This keeps the network performing best technically and enables you to target your marketing with perfect efficiency. Patrick Leary Aperto Networks 813.426.4230 mobile -Original Message- From: wireless-boun...@wispa.org [mailto:wireless-boun...@wispa.org] On Behalf Of Blake Covarrubias Sent: Tuesday, December 29, 2009 3:47 PM To: WISPA General List Subject: Re: [WISPA] Wimax gear LTE has already won and .16e will find only small, limited life and even less mass development. Do you see any point in small BRS/EBS (MMDS/ITFS) license holders deploying 802.16e in these frequency bands? Huwaei then (in my opinion) uses its capture of .16e customers as the Trojan Horse to convert that customer to LTE later. Is any development of LTE in the 2.5 band to make this even possible? -- Blake Covarrubias WISPA Wants You! Join today! http://signup.wispa.org/ WISPA Wireless List: wireless@wispa.org Subscribe/Unsubscribe: http://lists.wispa.org/mailman/listinfo/wireless Archives: http://lists.wispa.org/pipermail/wireless/ WISPA Wants You! Join today! http://signup.wispa.org/ WISPA Wireless List: wireless@wispa.org Subscribe/Unsubscribe: http://lists.wispa.org/mailman/listinfo/wireless Archives: http://lists.wispa.org/pipermail/wireless/
Re: [WISPA] Wimax gear
In our case, the numbers are about $20k for three sectors yielding an aggregate of about 60 mbps net for that cell. With WiMAX scheduling and our QoS, you could realistically connect well over 600 CPE in that cell. The sweet spot remains commercial, especially when implementing a double play of voice and data, so you can generate high ARPU. Patrick Leary Aperto Networks 813.426.4230 mobile -Original Message- From: wireless-boun...@wispa.org [mailto:wireless-boun...@wispa.org] On Behalf Of Tom DeReggi Sent: Tuesday, December 29, 2009 4:00 PM To: WISPA General List Subject: Re: [WISPA] Wimax gear I hate to sabatage this 3650 thread, but I cant help myself, when 802.16e is mentioned for PtMP 1) Ubiquiti Mimo AP - $89, capacity up to 150 mb, (or maybe 50mbps might be more fair, for avg 20 Mhz channel 2x pole). 2) Mikroik AP MIMO- $400, capacity: same as Ubiquiti, but with Spectrum Analysis, and a bit of hassle added. 3) Wimax 802.16e AP (1 antenna) - $9000, capacity: more efficient use of 25 mbps. 4) Wimax 802.16d AP - ?? $2000 - $7000 ??, capacity: same as Legacy TDD OFDM, or CDMA OFDM if small channel in 3.65G. 5) Legacy TDD OFDM- $1800, up to 25 mbps. Better management than wifi 6) Legacy CDMA OFDM AP- $300, capacity like 14 mbps. 7) Legacy DSSS TDD - $1300, 10mbps In the transition from Legacy to next adjacent generation, the decissions might have been tough. I get it, when some justified WiMax. But as we jump to the current day, represented at the top of the chart with items #1 and #2, it is almost silly to even see 802.16e in the line-up. Ubiquiti offers 1/100th the price, at 2x to 6x higher capacity than Wimax, dependant on how you look at it. Lets get real, will a WISP still consider Wimax-e, just to get a few feature enhancements, that is if they were to use their OWN money? Sure, we might choose WiMax for a grant, when WiMax will help prove Never able to reach profitabilty, without aid. But thats a different game. Now, we also have to consider, just about all carriers other than Sprint, has preferred and will choose LTE. Its inevidable that LTE will extinguish the 802.16e carrier market, so we cant even argue 802.16e will help our exit strategy, anymore. Dont misunderstand me, I dont doubt WiMax's technology. Its good stuff. So my question is, when will 802.16e manufacturers admit their original target market, game plan, and price list is ancient history? Will recent industry developments force WiMax 802.16e carriers to lower their price points down to the levels that are in line with the WISP market's expectations? Surely, its technically possible to reach those price points, Ubiquiti proved that, even if with Wifi chipsets. Arguably, Intel could reach the same scale with 802.16e instantly, if manufacturers lowered the AP cost to sub $2000. Will the BTOP/BIP program prevent price drops? Why lower price, when Grant programs could keep the price high for atleast 3 more years, beyond what the private funded operators would normally allow? Ubiquiti has set the bar high for our industry, and has got to be the largest disruptive force to the ISP industry since Cogent drove transit low cost. Wimax has a challenge in front of them. They lost the carrier market, and if you ask me, they'll lose the WISP market to, if they dont lower their price and up their game. I agree, WISPs would rather a full featured WiMax product, but when its being compared against a $90 product that is like Wifi on steroids, its a new game. I predict there will be numerous manufacturers this year filling the market that Mikrotik is currently leading the effort to tackle. Its the markets where its realized that a $99 AP is not necessary, and compromises like giving up spectrum analysis cant be accepted, but where manufacturers will challenge themselve to see how close to the price point they can get, without compromising advanced features. History showed us that Consumers will choose Linksys over Cisco. Eventually Cisco realized they had to become Linksys, in some capacity. Tom DeReggi RapidDSL Wireless, Inc IntAirNet- Fixed Wireless Broadband WISPA Wants You! Join today! http://signup.wispa.org/ WISPA Wireless List: wireless@wispa.org Subscribe/Unsubscribe: http://lists.wispa.org/mailman/listinfo/wireless Archives: http://lists.wispa.org/pipermail/wireless/ WISPA Wants You! Join today! http://signup.wispa.org/ WISPA Wireless List: wireless@wispa.org Subscribe/Unsubscribe: http://lists.wispa.org/mailman/listinfo/wireless Archives: http://lists.wispa.org/pipermail/wireless/
Re: [WISPA] Wimax gear
I read the Moto 802.16e MIMO spec. I found it interesting that receive sensitivy for QAM64 was -89. That is awesome, compared to wifi OFDM of about -68. Doesn't help with the noise floor SNR requirements though. I also found it insightful that the 802.16e model AUTO shifted from MIMO A to B. Its uses Dual Pol methodology. (A = same data send on each pol for higher receive signal and NLOS penetration, B = different data sent on each pol for double throughput, but no link budget improvement) On the 430 5.8Ghz OFDM line, I had heard that it was going to be limited to integrated antenna CPE and Verticle Pol only. Is that true? Or will it have an external antenna CPE option? I know a Beehive can be put on the 10dbi ant to make it higher, but it would still be discouraging if product prevented from using high end parabolic dishes. Tom DeReggi RapidDSL Wireless, Inc IntAirNet- Fixed Wireless Broadband - Original Message - From: 3-dB Networks wi...@3-db.net To: 'WISPA General List' wireless@wispa.org Sent: Tuesday, December 29, 2009 6:39 PM Subject: Re: [WISPA] Wimax gear Everytime I see that pricing it makes me cringe... since I've seen Moto give pricing way before a product is actually set to release and its way off the mark. I hope it's right for Moto sake :-) Daniel White 3-dB Networks http://www.3dbnetworks.com dan...@3-db.net -Original Message- From: wireless-boun...@wispa.org [mailto:wireless-boun...@wispa.org] On Behalf Of Gino Villarini Sent: Tuesday, December 29, 2009 4:07 PM To: WISPA General List Subject: Re: [WISPA] Wimax gear Soon as in q1 or q2 IIRC $350~ SM $3500~ AP Specs are in the website under 320 series Sent from my Motorola Startac... On Dec 29, 2009, at 6:50 PM, Tom DeReggi wirelessn...@rapiddsl.net wrote: moto Did you mean they are comming out with soon? or did you really mean they are talking about comming out with? In WISP time, there is a big difference. Yeah, it would be cool if that was comming in the near future at current Canopy level price points. But that is an if. Tom DeReggi RapidDSL Wireless, Inc IntAirNet- Fixed Wireless Broadband - Original Message - From: Gino Villarini g...@aeronetpr.com To: WISPA General List wireless@wispa.org Cc: WISPA General List wireless@wispa.org Sent: Tuesday, December 29, 2009 5:05 PM Subject: Re: [WISPA] Wimax gear Less? Moto is comming out with a 16e system with 4.5 bits per hz using mimo Sent from my Motorola Startac... On Dec 29, 2009, at 4:45 PM, Patrick Leary ple...@apertonet.com wrote: Why is your basic criteria .16e with MIMO (or .16e at all)? All .16e gets you in 3.65 GHz is much more (30% more) latency, less throughput per MHz, higher overhead and more cost. And you won't get any hope for interoperability, indoor modems, USB dongles or PC cards, since those are only applicable to licensed bands. Patrick Leary Aperto Networks 813.426.4230 mobile -Original Message- From: wireless-boun...@wispa.org [mailto:wireless-boun...@wispa.org] On Behalf Of Michael Baird Sent: Tuesday, December 29, 2009 11:22 AM To: WISPA General List Subject: [WISPA] Wimax gear We are looking for some more wimax gear to test for the 3.65 band, our basic criteria would be 802.16e/mimo, we've tested Alvarion gear already. We are looking for something that will work in an urban environment with self install radios, can deliver voice and if possible with PPP/NAT/DHCP in the radio rather then as an external gateway device. If any dealers out there would like to chime in or hit me off list I would appreciate it. Regards Michael Baird --- --- -- WISPA Wants You! Join today! http://signup.wispa.org/ --- --- -- WISPA Wireless List: wireless@wispa.org Subscribe/Unsubscribe: http://lists.wispa.org/mailman/listinfo/wireless Archives: http://lists.wispa.org/pipermail/wireless/ --- --- --- --- WISPA Wants You! Join today! http://signup.wispa.org/ --- --- --- --- WISPA Wireless List: wireless@wispa.org Subscribe/Unsubscribe: http://lists.wispa.org/mailman/listinfo/wireless Archives: http://lists.wispa.org/pipermail/wireless/ --- --- --- --- WISPA Wants You! Join today! http://signup.wispa.org/ --- --- --- --- WISPA Wireless List: wireless@wispa.org Subscribe/Unsubscribe: http://lists.wispa.org/mailman/listinfo/wireless Archives: http://lists.wispa.org/pipermail/wireless/ -- Internal Virus Database is out-of-date. Checked by AVG
Re: [WISPA] Wimax gear
Patrick, Just for the record, let me say I realize there are many little details between WiMax and Wifi that can translate to real big differences in value proposition gain for Wimax, after all said and done. There is no doubt in my mind that Wimax-D price tags for top quality gear can results in a reasonable ROI for those targeting commercial markets. More so when a company graduates from mompop size operation to a company that has to be able to scale easilly. But it has never really mattered what the profit or revenue potential was for using a product. At the end of the day operators dont pay more than they have to pay for anything. No business does. As an example, its ludacris that I pay more for one of my core roof rights sites than I do for the transit fiber that serves my entire foot print of customers made possible by 24 cell sites. But I pay less for transit, because there is competition between vendors, and I can. Its irrelevent that the transit should be worth a higher percentage of my revenue. As well, I pay more than I should for that one high priced roof, because there was competition amongst buyers, and I legitimately needed that space. Clearly in 3.65ghz, there is an immediate opportunity for manufacturers to hold on to high margins for longer, and justify them. But... I still stand behind my core point. The dynamics are changing. Prices are falling, and low price gear is starting to become more feature rich, closer to a WiMax product, tolerable to scale an operation. The gap between Wifi and Wimax is shrinking. It will be an interesting year in wireless technology again this year. My 2010 New Years Wish is that maybe in 2010, 80Ghz manufacturers will step up to make progress equivellent or in line with Licensed 6-23G PTP and 3.5-5.8G PtMP manufacturers that made major advancements in 2009. The technology is there, I just hope our industry accomplishes the price point needed for mass scale in time, before companies like ATT get fiber to every home by 2015 :-) Tom DeReggi RapidDSL Wireless, Inc IntAirNet- Fixed Wireless Broadband - Original Message - From: Patrick Leary ple...@apertonet.com To: WISPA General List wireless@wispa.org Sent: Tuesday, December 29, 2009 7:13 PM Subject: Re: [WISPA] Wimax gear In our case, the numbers are about $20k for three sectors yielding an aggregate of about 60 mbps net for that cell. With WiMAX scheduling and our QoS, you could realistically connect well over 600 CPE in that cell. The sweet spot remains commercial, especially when implementing a double play of voice and data, so you can generate high ARPU. Patrick Leary Aperto Networks 813.426.4230 mobile -Original Message- From: wireless-boun...@wispa.org [mailto:wireless-boun...@wispa.org] On Behalf Of Tom DeReggi Sent: Tuesday, December 29, 2009 4:00 PM To: WISPA General List Subject: Re: [WISPA] Wimax gear I hate to sabatage this 3650 thread, but I cant help myself, when 802.16e is mentioned for PtMP 1) Ubiquiti Mimo AP - $89, capacity up to 150 mb, (or maybe 50mbps might be more fair, for avg 20 Mhz channel 2x pole). 2) Mikroik AP MIMO- $400, capacity: same as Ubiquiti, but with Spectrum Analysis, and a bit of hassle added. 3) Wimax 802.16e AP (1 antenna) - $9000, capacity: more efficient use of 25 mbps. 4) Wimax 802.16d AP - ?? $2000 - $7000 ??, capacity: same as Legacy TDD OFDM, or CDMA OFDM if small channel in 3.65G. 5) Legacy TDD OFDM- $1800, up to 25 mbps. Better management than wifi 6) Legacy CDMA OFDM AP- $300, capacity like 14 mbps. 7) Legacy DSSS TDD - $1300, 10mbps In the transition from Legacy to next adjacent generation, the decissions might have been tough. I get it, when some justified WiMax. But as we jump to the current day, represented at the top of the chart with items #1 and #2, it is almost silly to even see 802.16e in the line-up. Ubiquiti offers 1/100th the price, at 2x to 6x higher capacity than Wimax, dependant on how you look at it. Lets get real, will a WISP still consider Wimax-e, just to get a few feature enhancements, that is if they were to use their OWN money? Sure, we might choose WiMax for a grant, when WiMax will help prove Never able to reach profitabilty, without aid. But thats a different game. Now, we also have to consider, just about all carriers other than Sprint, has preferred and will choose LTE. Its inevidable that LTE will extinguish the 802.16e carrier market, so we cant even argue 802.16e will help our exit strategy, anymore. Dont misunderstand me, I dont doubt WiMax's technology. Its good stuff. So my question is, when will 802.16e manufacturers admit their original target market, game plan, and price list is ancient history? Will recent industry developments force WiMax 802.16e carriers to lower their price points down to the levels that are in line with the WISP market's expectations? Surely, its technically possible
Re: [WISPA] Wimax gear
Tom ROTFL You can't compare a ubiquiti to a motorola 16e That's like comparing a Yugo with a Porsche Sent from my Motorola Startac... On Dec 29, 2009, at 9:00 PM, Tom DeReggi wirelessn...@rapiddsl.net wrote: I will admit, Moto has made a name for itself as a company that is here for the long haul. From that perspective, its always excitign to learn about new Moto products on their way. No problem with the $350 CPE level. But, I'd argue $3500 AP is still way to high, even for 802.16e MIMO. The truth is, we all know the cost to make a MIMO device hardware is not that much more than to make legacy non-MIMO, or I should say, very insignificant compared to the market value of the higher capacity. Its all opportunity mark up. (Sure MIMO takes more processor power, more antennas, etc, but those things are likely obtainable cheaper today than their legacy components were when they were designed). I'd also argue that RF speed/price is similar to Computer CPU speed/ price concepts. 50 mbps today is equivelent in value to what 10mbps was to us 5 years ago. Therefore price points should not exceed the cost of 10mbps 5 years ago, for the WISP to get a break even on the new technology. This is from both the perspective of consumer's demand for higher speeds, as well as technology advancement. I'd pose the same arguements Ubiquiti AP $99. vs Moto AP $3500. Paying 35x more for an AP is a tough call. Dont get me wrong, I've always been in favor of higher cost AP, simply because it discourages putting them up unnecessarilly to create noise, before they are needed, and discourages harry high school kid from calling themselves a WISP with one paycheck from McDs. But I'd argued Moto would need to beat the current Canopy Advantage line AP cost in order to make a big splash in the market. Tom DeReggi RapidDSL Wireless, Inc IntAirNet- Fixed Wireless Broadband - Original Message - From: 3-dB Networks wi...@3-db.net To: 'WISPA General List' wireless@wispa.org Sent: Tuesday, December 29, 2009 6:39 PM Subject: Re: [WISPA] Wimax gear Everytime I see that pricing it makes me cringe... since I've seen Moto give pricing way before a product is actually set to release and its way off the mark. I hope it's right for Moto sake :-) Daniel White 3-dB Networks http://www.3dbnetworks.com dan...@3-db.net -Original Message- From: wireless-boun...@wispa.org [mailto:wireless- boun...@wispa.org] On Behalf Of Gino Villarini Sent: Tuesday, December 29, 2009 4:07 PM To: WISPA General List Subject: Re: [WISPA] Wimax gear Soon as in q1 or q2 IIRC $350~ SM $3500~ AP Specs are in the website under 320 series Sent from my Motorola Startac... On Dec 29, 2009, at 6:50 PM, Tom DeReggi wirelessn...@rapiddsl.net wrote: moto Did you mean they are comming out with soon? or did you really mean they are talking about comming out with? In WISP time, there is a big difference. Yeah, it would be cool if that was comming in the near future at current Canopy level price points. But that is an if. Tom DeReggi RapidDSL Wireless, Inc IntAirNet- Fixed Wireless Broadband - Original Message - From: Gino Villarini g...@aeronetpr.com To: WISPA General List wireless@wispa.org Cc: WISPA General List wireless@wispa.org Sent: Tuesday, December 29, 2009 5:05 PM Subject: Re: [WISPA] Wimax gear Less? Moto is comming out with a 16e system with 4.5 bits per hz using mimo Sent from my Motorola Startac... On Dec 29, 2009, at 4:45 PM, Patrick Leary ple...@apertonet.com wrote: Why is your basic criteria .16e with MIMO (or .16e at all)? All .16e gets you in 3.65 GHz is much more (30% more) latency, less throughput per MHz, higher overhead and more cost. And you won't get any hope for interoperability, indoor modems, USB dongles or PC cards, since those are only applicable to licensed bands. Patrick Leary Aperto Networks 813.426.4230 mobile -Original Message- From: wireless-boun...@wispa.org [mailto:wireless- boun...@wispa.org] On Behalf Of Michael Baird Sent: Tuesday, December 29, 2009 11:22 AM To: WISPA General List Subject: [WISPA] Wimax gear We are looking for some more wimax gear to test for the 3.65 band, our basic criteria would be 802.16e/mimo, we've tested Alvarion gear already. We are looking for something that will work in an urban environment with self install radios, can deliver voice and if possible with PPP/NAT/DHCP in the radio rather then as an external gateway device. If any dealers out there would like to chime in or hit me off list I would appreciate it. Regards Michael Baird --- --- -- WISPA Wants You! Join today! http://signup.wispa.org
Re: [WISPA] Wimax gear
430 cpe is the same as current Canopy SM's Sent from my Motorola Startac... On Dec 29, 2009, at 9:00 PM, Tom DeReggi wirelessn...@rapiddsl.net wrote: I read the Moto 802.16e MIMO spec. I found it interesting that receive sensitivy for QAM64 was -89. That is awesome, compared to wifi OFDM of about -68. Doesn't help with the noise floor SNR requirements though. I also found it insightful that the 802.16e model AUTO shifted from MIMO A to B. Its uses Dual Pol methodology. (A = same data send on each pol for higher receive signal and NLOS penetration, B = different data sent on each pol for double throughput, but no link budget improvement) On the 430 5.8Ghz OFDM line, I had heard that it was going to be limited to integrated antenna CPE and Verticle Pol only. Is that true? Or will it have an external antenna CPE option? I know a Beehive can be put on the 10dbi ant to make it higher, but it would still be discouraging if product prevented from using high end parabolic dishes. Tom DeReggi RapidDSL Wireless, Inc IntAirNet- Fixed Wireless Broadband - Original Message - From: 3-dB Networks wi...@3-db.net To: 'WISPA General List' wireless@wispa.org Sent: Tuesday, December 29, 2009 6:39 PM Subject: Re: [WISPA] Wimax gear Everytime I see that pricing it makes me cringe... since I've seen Moto give pricing way before a product is actually set to release and its way off the mark. I hope it's right for Moto sake :-) Daniel White 3-dB Networks http://www.3dbnetworks.com dan...@3-db.net -Original Message- From: wireless-boun...@wispa.org [mailto:wireless- boun...@wispa.org] On Behalf Of Gino Villarini Sent: Tuesday, December 29, 2009 4:07 PM To: WISPA General List Subject: Re: [WISPA] Wimax gear Soon as in q1 or q2 IIRC $350~ SM $3500~ AP Specs are in the website under 320 series Sent from my Motorola Startac... On Dec 29, 2009, at 6:50 PM, Tom DeReggi wirelessn...@rapiddsl.net wrote: moto Did you mean they are comming out with soon? or did you really mean they are talking about comming out with? In WISP time, there is a big difference. Yeah, it would be cool if that was comming in the near future at current Canopy level price points. But that is an if. Tom DeReggi RapidDSL Wireless, Inc IntAirNet- Fixed Wireless Broadband - Original Message - From: Gino Villarini g...@aeronetpr.com To: WISPA General List wireless@wispa.org Cc: WISPA General List wireless@wispa.org Sent: Tuesday, December 29, 2009 5:05 PM Subject: Re: [WISPA] Wimax gear Less? Moto is comming out with a 16e system with 4.5 bits per hz using mimo Sent from my Motorola Startac... On Dec 29, 2009, at 4:45 PM, Patrick Leary ple...@apertonet.com wrote: Why is your basic criteria .16e with MIMO (or .16e at all)? All .16e gets you in 3.65 GHz is much more (30% more) latency, less throughput per MHz, higher overhead and more cost. And you won't get any hope for interoperability, indoor modems, USB dongles or PC cards, since those are only applicable to licensed bands. Patrick Leary Aperto Networks 813.426.4230 mobile -Original Message- From: wireless-boun...@wispa.org [mailto:wireless- boun...@wispa.org] On Behalf Of Michael Baird Sent: Tuesday, December 29, 2009 11:22 AM To: WISPA General List Subject: [WISPA] Wimax gear We are looking for some more wimax gear to test for the 3.65 band, our basic criteria would be 802.16e/mimo, we've tested Alvarion gear already. We are looking for something that will work in an urban environment with self install radios, can deliver voice and if possible with PPP/NAT/DHCP in the radio rather then as an external gateway device. If any dealers out there would like to chime in or hit me off list I would appreciate it. Regards Michael Baird --- --- -- WISPA Wants You! Join today! http://signup.wispa.org/ --- --- -- WISPA Wireless List: wireless@wispa.org Subscribe/Unsubscribe: http://lists.wispa.org/mailman/listinfo/wireless Archives: http://lists.wispa.org/pipermail/wireless/ --- --- --- --- --- - WISPA Wants You! Join today! http://signup.wispa.org/ --- --- --- --- --- - WISPA Wireless List: wireless@wispa.org Subscribe/Unsubscribe: http://lists.wispa.org/mailman/listinfo/wireless Archives: http://lists.wispa.org/pipermail/wireless/ --- --- --- --- --- - WISPA Wants You! Join today! http://signup.wispa.org/ --- --- --- --- --- - WISPA Wireless List
Re: [WISPA] Wimax gear
Tom Do you have any Ubiquity AirMac in production? Sent from my Motorola Startac... On Dec 29, 2009, at 8:15 PM, Patrick Leary ple...@apertonet.com wrote: In our case, the numbers are about $20k for three sectors yielding an aggregate of about 60 mbps net for that cell. With WiMAX scheduling and our QoS, you could realistically connect well over 600 CPE in that cell. The sweet spot remains commercial, especially when implementing a double play of voice and data, so you can generate high ARPU. Patrick Leary Aperto Networks 813.426.4230 mobile -Original Message- From: wireless-boun...@wispa.org [mailto:wireless-boun...@wispa.org] On Behalf Of Tom DeReggi Sent: Tuesday, December 29, 2009 4:00 PM To: WISPA General List Subject: Re: [WISPA] Wimax gear I hate to sabatage this 3650 thread, but I cant help myself, when 802.16e is mentioned for PtMP 1) Ubiquiti Mimo AP - $89, capacity up to 150 mb, (or maybe 50mbps might be more fair, for avg 20 Mhz channel 2x pole). 2) Mikroik AP MIMO- $400, capacity: same as Ubiquiti, but with Spectrum Analysis, and a bit of hassle added. 3) Wimax 802.16e AP (1 antenna) - $9000, capacity: more efficient use of 25 mbps. 4) Wimax 802.16d AP - ?? $2000 - $7000 ??, capacity: same as Legacy TDD OFDM, or CDMA OFDM if small channel in 3.65G. 5) Legacy TDD OFDM- $1800, up to 25 mbps. Better management than wifi 6) Legacy CDMA OFDM AP- $300, capacity like 14 mbps. 7) Legacy DSSS TDD - $1300, 10mbps In the transition from Legacy to next adjacent generation, the decissions might have been tough. I get it, when some justified WiMax. But as we jump to the current day, represented at the top of the chart with items #1 and #2, it is almost silly to even see 802.16e in the line-up. Ubiquiti offers 1/100th the price, at 2x to 6x higher capacity than Wimax, dependant on how you look at it. Lets get real, will a WISP still consider Wimax-e, just to get a few feature enhancements, that is if they were to use their OWN money? Sure, we might choose WiMax for a grant, when WiMax will help prove Never able to reach profitabilty, without aid. But thats a different game. Now, we also have to consider, just about all carriers other than Sprint, has preferred and will choose LTE. Its inevidable that LTE will extinguish the 802.16e carrier market, so we cant even argue 802.16e will help our exit strategy, anymore. Dont misunderstand me, I dont doubt WiMax's technology. Its good stuff. So my question is, when will 802.16e manufacturers admit their original target market, game plan, and price list is ancient history? Will recent industry developments force WiMax 802.16e carriers to lower their price points down to the levels that are in line with the WISP market's expectations? Surely, its technically possible to reach those price points, Ubiquiti proved that, even if with Wifi chipsets. Arguably, Intel could reach the same scale with 802.16e instantly, if manufacturers lowered the AP cost to sub $2000. Will the BTOP/BIP program prevent price drops? Why lower price, when Grant programs could keep the price high for atleast 3 more years, beyond what the private funded operators would normally allow? Ubiquiti has set the bar high for our industry, and has got to be the largest disruptive force to the ISP industry since Cogent drove transit low cost. Wimax has a challenge in front of them. They lost the carrier market, and if you ask me, they'll lose the WISP market to, if they dont lower their price and up their game. I agree, WISPs would rather a full featured WiMax product, but when its being compared against a $90 product that is like Wifi on steroids, its a new game. I predict there will be numerous manufacturers this year filling the market that Mikrotik is currently leading the effort to tackle. Its the markets where its realized that a $99 AP is not necessary, and compromises like giving up spectrum analysis cant be accepted, but where manufacturers will challenge themselve to see how close to the price point they can get, without compromising advanced features. History showed us that Consumers will choose Linksys over Cisco. Eventually Cisco realized they had to become Linksys, in some capacity. Tom DeReggi RapidDSL Wireless, Inc IntAirNet- Fixed Wireless Broadband --- - WISPA Wants You! Join today! http://signup.wispa.org/ --- - WISPA Wireless List: wireless@wispa.org Subscribe/Unsubscribe: http://lists.wispa.org/mailman/listinfo/wireless Archives: http://lists.wispa.org/pipermail/wireless/ --- --- --- --- WISPA Wants You! Join today! http://signup.wispa.org
Re: [WISPA] Wimax gear
I'd say it'd be more like comparing a Corvette with a Porsche... in the right hands in many cases, a Corvette will beat the Porsche, but the Porsche is 35x more expensive. - Mike Hammett Intelligent Computing Solutions http://www.ics-il.com -- From: Gino Villarini g...@aeronetpr.com Sent: Tuesday, December 29, 2009 8:01 PM To: WISPA General List wireless@wispa.org Cc: WISPA General List wireless@wispa.org Subject: Re: [WISPA] Wimax gear Tom ROTFL You can't compare a ubiquiti to a motorola 16e That's like comparing a Yugo with a Porsche Sent from my Motorola Startac... On Dec 29, 2009, at 9:00 PM, Tom DeReggi wirelessn...@rapiddsl.net wrote: I will admit, Moto has made a name for itself as a company that is here for the long haul. From that perspective, its always excitign to learn about new Moto products on their way. No problem with the $350 CPE level. But, I'd argue $3500 AP is still way to high, even for 802.16e MIMO. The truth is, we all know the cost to make a MIMO device hardware is not that much more than to make legacy non-MIMO, or I should say, very insignificant compared to the market value of the higher capacity. Its all opportunity mark up. (Sure MIMO takes more processor power, more antennas, etc, but those things are likely obtainable cheaper today than their legacy components were when they were designed). I'd also argue that RF speed/price is similar to Computer CPU speed/ price concepts. 50 mbps today is equivelent in value to what 10mbps was to us 5 years ago. Therefore price points should not exceed the cost of 10mbps 5 years ago, for the WISP to get a break even on the new technology. This is from both the perspective of consumer's demand for higher speeds, as well as technology advancement. I'd pose the same arguements Ubiquiti AP $99. vs Moto AP $3500. Paying 35x more for an AP is a tough call. Dont get me wrong, I've always been in favor of higher cost AP, simply because it discourages putting them up unnecessarilly to create noise, before they are needed, and discourages harry high school kid from calling themselves a WISP with one paycheck from McDs. But I'd argued Moto would need to beat the current Canopy Advantage line AP cost in order to make a big splash in the market. Tom DeReggi RapidDSL Wireless, Inc IntAirNet- Fixed Wireless Broadband - Original Message - From: 3-dB Networks wi...@3-db.net To: 'WISPA General List' wireless@wispa.org Sent: Tuesday, December 29, 2009 6:39 PM Subject: Re: [WISPA] Wimax gear Everytime I see that pricing it makes me cringe... since I've seen Moto give pricing way before a product is actually set to release and its way off the mark. I hope it's right for Moto sake :-) Daniel White 3-dB Networks http://www.3dbnetworks.com dan...@3-db.net -Original Message- From: wireless-boun...@wispa.org [mailto:wireless- boun...@wispa.org] On Behalf Of Gino Villarini Sent: Tuesday, December 29, 2009 4:07 PM To: WISPA General List Subject: Re: [WISPA] Wimax gear Soon as in q1 or q2 IIRC $350~ SM $3500~ AP Specs are in the website under 320 series Sent from my Motorola Startac... On Dec 29, 2009, at 6:50 PM, Tom DeReggi wirelessn...@rapiddsl.net wrote: moto Did you mean they are comming out with soon? or did you really mean they are talking about comming out with? In WISP time, there is a big difference. Yeah, it would be cool if that was comming in the near future at current Canopy level price points. But that is an if. Tom DeReggi RapidDSL Wireless, Inc IntAirNet- Fixed Wireless Broadband - Original Message - From: Gino Villarini g...@aeronetpr.com To: WISPA General List wireless@wispa.org Cc: WISPA General List wireless@wispa.org Sent: Tuesday, December 29, 2009 5:05 PM Subject: Re: [WISPA] Wimax gear Less? Moto is comming out with a 16e system with 4.5 bits per hz using mimo Sent from my Motorola Startac... On Dec 29, 2009, at 4:45 PM, Patrick Leary ple...@apertonet.com wrote: Why is your basic criteria .16e with MIMO (or .16e at all)? All .16e gets you in 3.65 GHz is much more (30% more) latency, less throughput per MHz, higher overhead and more cost. And you won't get any hope for interoperability, indoor modems, USB dongles or PC cards, since those are only applicable to licensed bands. Patrick Leary Aperto Networks 813.426.4230 mobile -Original Message- From: wireless-boun...@wispa.org [mailto:wireless- boun...@wispa.org] On Behalf Of Michael Baird Sent: Tuesday, December 29, 2009 11:22 AM To: WISPA General List Subject: [WISPA] Wimax gear We are looking for some more wimax gear to test for the 3.65 band, our basic criteria would be 802.16e/mimo, we've tested Alvarion gear already. We are looking for something that will work in an urban environment with self install radios
Re: [WISPA] Wimax gear
On Tue, Dec 29, 2009 at 10:00 PM, Tom DeReggi wirelessn...@rapiddsl.net wrote: I hate to sabatage this 3650 thread, but I cant help myself, when 802.16e is mentioned for PtMP 1) Ubiquiti Mimo AP - $89, capacity up to 150 mb, (or maybe 50mbps might be more fair, for avg 20 Mhz channel 2x pole). Not available yet for 3.65 MHz, and will be limited to 5 MHz channel instead of 7 MHz channel. I don't know US regulations for 5.4-5.7 GHz, but even with limited power there are lots of spectrum in many markets that will probably do as fine as 3.65 MHz in this band, opposed to 5.7-5.8 GHz which is crowded in any part of the world. Rubens WISPA Wants You! Join today! http://signup.wispa.org/ WISPA Wireless List: wireless@wispa.org Subscribe/Unsubscribe: http://lists.wispa.org/mailman/listinfo/wireless Archives: http://lists.wispa.org/pipermail/wireless/
Re: [WISPA] Wimax gear
I have owned both. Porsche is a true piece of german engineering Corvette was GM crap Sent from my Motorola Startac... On Dec 29, 2009, at 10:40 PM, Mike Hammett wispawirel...@ics- il.net wrote: I'd say it'd be more like comparing a Corvette with a Porsche... in the right hands in many cases, a Corvette will beat the Porsche, but the Porsche is 35x more expensive. - Mike Hammett Intelligent Computing Solutions http://www.ics-il.com -- From: Gino Villarini g...@aeronetpr.com Sent: Tuesday, December 29, 2009 8:01 PM To: WISPA General List wireless@wispa.org Cc: WISPA General List wireless@wispa.org Subject: Re: [WISPA] Wimax gear Tom ROTFL You can't compare a ubiquiti to a motorola 16e That's like comparing a Yugo with a Porsche Sent from my Motorola Startac... On Dec 29, 2009, at 9:00 PM, Tom DeReggi wirelessn...@rapiddsl.net wrote: I will admit, Moto has made a name for itself as a company that is here for the long haul. From that perspective, its always excitign to learn about new Moto products on their way. No problem with the $350 CPE level. But, I'd argue $3500 AP is still way to high, even for 802.16e MIMO. The truth is, we all know the cost to make a MIMO device hardware is not that much more than to make legacy non-MIMO, or I should say, very insignificant compared to the market value of the higher capacity. Its all opportunity mark up. (Sure MIMO takes more processor power, more antennas, etc, but those things are likely obtainable cheaper today than their legacy components were when they were designed). I'd also argue that RF speed/price is similar to Computer CPU speed/ price concepts. 50 mbps today is equivelent in value to what 10mbps was to us 5 years ago. Therefore price points should not exceed the cost of 10mbps 5 years ago, for the WISP to get a break even on the new technology. This is from both the perspective of consumer's demand for higher speeds, as well as technology advancement. I'd pose the same arguements Ubiquiti AP $99. vs Moto AP $3500. Paying 35x more for an AP is a tough call. Dont get me wrong, I've always been in favor of higher cost AP, simply because it discourages putting them up unnecessarilly to create noise, before they are needed, and discourages harry high school kid from calling themselves a WISP with one paycheck from McDs. But I'd argued Moto would need to beat the current Canopy Advantage line AP cost in order to make a big splash in the market. Tom DeReggi RapidDSL Wireless, Inc IntAirNet- Fixed Wireless Broadband - Original Message - From: 3-dB Networks wi...@3-db.net To: 'WISPA General List' wireless@wispa.org Sent: Tuesday, December 29, 2009 6:39 PM Subject: Re: [WISPA] Wimax gear Everytime I see that pricing it makes me cringe... since I've seen Moto give pricing way before a product is actually set to release and its way off the mark. I hope it's right for Moto sake :-) Daniel White 3-dB Networks http://www.3dbnetworks.com dan...@3-db.net -Original Message- From: wireless-boun...@wispa.org [mailto:wireless- boun...@wispa.org] On Behalf Of Gino Villarini Sent: Tuesday, December 29, 2009 4:07 PM To: WISPA General List Subject: Re: [WISPA] Wimax gear Soon as in q1 or q2 IIRC $350~ SM $3500~ AP Specs are in the website under 320 series Sent from my Motorola Startac... On Dec 29, 2009, at 6:50 PM, Tom DeReggi wirelessn...@rapiddsl.net wrote: moto Did you mean they are comming out with soon? or did you really mean they are talking about comming out with? In WISP time, there is a big difference. Yeah, it would be cool if that was comming in the near future at current Canopy level price points. But that is an if. Tom DeReggi RapidDSL Wireless, Inc IntAirNet- Fixed Wireless Broadband - Original Message - From: Gino Villarini g...@aeronetpr.com To: WISPA General List wireless@wispa.org Cc: WISPA General List wireless@wispa.org Sent: Tuesday, December 29, 2009 5:05 PM Subject: Re: [WISPA] Wimax gear Less? Moto is comming out with a 16e system with 4.5 bits per hz using mimo Sent from my Motorola Startac... On Dec 29, 2009, at 4:45 PM, Patrick Leary ple...@apertonet.com wrote: Why is your basic criteria .16e with MIMO (or .16e at all)? All .16e gets you in 3.65 GHz is much more (30% more) latency, less throughput per MHz, higher overhead and more cost. And you won't get any hope for interoperability, indoor modems, USB dongles or PC cards, since those are only applicable to licensed bands. Patrick Leary Aperto Networks 813.426.4230 mobile -Original Message- From: wireless-boun...@wispa.org [mailto:wireless- boun...@wispa.org] On Behalf Of Michael Baird Sent: Tuesday, December 29, 2009 11:22 AM To: WISPA General List Subject: [WISPA] Wimax gear
Re: [WISPA] Wimax gear
LTE has already won and .16e will find only small, limited life and even less mass development. Do you see any point in small BRS/EBS (MMDS/ITFS) license holders deploying 802.16e in these frequency bands? Hi Blake, I'd say the question boils down to who's going to foot the bill for the deployment -- you or the government =) -Charles WISPA Wants You! Join today! http://signup.wispa.org/ WISPA Wireless List: wireless@wispa.org Subscribe/Unsubscribe: http://lists.wispa.org/mailman/listinfo/wireless Archives: http://lists.wispa.org/pipermail/wireless/ WISPA Wants You! Join today! http://signup.wispa.org/ WISPA Wireless List: wireless@wispa.org Subscribe/Unsubscribe: http://lists.wispa.org/mailman/listinfo/wireless Archives: http://lists.wispa.org/pipermail/wireless/
Re: [WISPA] Wimax gear
I'd say the question boils down to who's going to foot the bill for the deployment -- you or the government =) With or without government stimulus I'm curious of the lists' general consensus on whether or not WiMAX is worthwhile investment in this 'war' of LTE vs WiMAX. Having Uncle Sam foot the bill on a deployment definitely lowers / removes the financial barrier, but doesn't really matter if deploying WiMAX is a foolish endeavor from the get-go due to lack of customer demand or vendors ceasing development. I believe WiMAX has an opportunity to be commercially viable at least for a couple of years, and I don't see any reason to not take advantage of that fact. But, what do I know. Consider this a question solely for the sake of debate. -- Blake Covarrubias WISPA Wants You! Join today! http://signup.wispa.org/ WISPA Wireless List: wireless@wispa.org Subscribe/Unsubscribe: http://lists.wispa.org/mailman/listinfo/wireless Archives: http://lists.wispa.org/pipermail/wireless/
