Re: [WSG] 3 column layout - centre column forced below side columns in IE at low resolution
I would of suggested wrapping a div with float: left around #sidebar_a and #content so when worse came to worse you forced #sidebar_b below the main content.However, that would require a major change in your source code. And seeing your are already using conditional comments to serve a .htc behaviour to ie only. Why not add another for min-width options:
grab ie7 behaviours from Dean Edwards http://dean.edwards.name/IE7/ try this one it is much smaller but untested
http://archivist.incutio.com/viewlist/css-discuss/42236or just add the following into you conditional comment:style type=text/css
.minWidth{
width:_expression_(document.body.clientWidth 800 ? 800px: auto );
}
/style
-- Nick Cowiehttp://nickcowie.com
Re: [WSG] HTML, XML what's the difference.
Ok, one last try. My thoughts have little to do with semantics. Semantics are based on standards and languages, and therefore if HTML were dropped, something would HAVE to be introduced to replace it. However, like the hCard format, trying to break the HTML structure to add semantics to an address on a website seems silly, why not define a new, standard, Address DTD. This way any professional will be able to look up the standard for any data-type he wants. If a data-type has not been defined publicly, then his being forced to use a bunch of meaningless tags seems silly. Trying to get amateurs to create semantic based sites is largely futile, whatever standards you use, in whatever industry. In these situations, to a UA, there is no difference between: div class=headingPage title/div div class=asasome text/div div class=paraspan class=firstwordThe/spanquick brown/div and headingPage title/heading asasome text/ada parafirstwordThe/firstwordquick brown/para Except that it is easier for humans to understand. This IS important because the easier markup is to understand, the easier it is to maintain and the more likely it is to be standards-compliant. HTML is primarily a text document markup language, a tiny subset of the total information types available on the internet, with extra bits added on. Why does all information have to be presented in this format? Create a new Document DTD, a webpage DTD with things like Title and meta-tag included and then people who don't adhere to these new standards will find that their sites, by default, don't get listed in search engines. Or that browser functionality (like linking addresses to a user's address book) don't work. This will force them to be standards compliant. Stephen ** The discussion list for http://webstandardsgroup.org/ See http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm for some hints on posting to the list getting help **
[WSG] Target sued over non-accessible site
I just read about this on another list. I thought others might be interested. Target is a large, stylish but also discount, retailer in the US. This should be a big case for web accessibility. __ Blind Cal student sues Target. Suit charges retailer's Web site cannot be used by the sightless. ... What I hope is that Target and other online merchants will realize how important it is to reach 1.3 million people in this nation and the growing baby-boomer population who will also be losing vision, said plaintiff Bruce Sexton Jr., 24, a blind third-year student at UC Berkeley. Sexton, who is president of the California Association of Blind Students, said making Target's Web site accessible to the blind would also make it more navigable by those without vision problems http://tinyurl.com/7ze7p __ Best regards, Marilyn Langfeld Langfeldesigns http://www.langfeldesigns.com [EMAIL PROTECTED] ** The discussion list for http://webstandardsgroup.org/ See http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm for some hints on posting to the list getting help **
RE: [WSG] Target sued over non-accessible site
This has the potential for making some positive improvements in the commercial web sphere. Target is not blind to good design. Their new prescription bottles have been hailed as one of the best designs of the last decade (I think they were designed by a graduate student before Target purchased them. But at least they recognized the value) Target has also commissioned top fashion and architecture designers to develop affordable products (Michael Graves, Phiippe Stark, ...) Target may actually replace their site with an insightful, accessible solution that is a model for other companies. Unfortunately, it takes a law suit to get corporations to make changes these days. Ted www.tdrake.net -Original Message- From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] On Behalf Of Marilyn Langfeld Sent: Thursday, February 09, 2006 8:43 AM To: wsg@webstandardsgroup.org Subject: [WSG] Target sued over non-accessible site I just read about this on another list. I thought others might be interested. Target is a large, stylish but also discount, retailer in the US. This should be a big case for web accessibility. __ Blind Cal student sues Target. Suit charges retailer's Web site cannot be used by the sightless. ... What I hope is that Target and other online merchants will realize how important it is to reach 1.3 million people in this nation and the growing baby-boomer population who will also be losing vision, said plaintiff Bruce Sexton Jr., 24, a blind third-year student at UC Berkeley. Sexton, who is president of the California Association of Blind Students, said making Target's Web site accessible to the blind would also make it more navigable by those without vision problems http://tinyurl.com/7ze7p __ Best regards, Marilyn Langfeld Langfeldesigns http://www.langfeldesigns.com [EMAIL PROTECTED] ** The discussion list for http://webstandardsgroup.org/ See http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm for some hints on posting to the list getting help ** ** The discussion list for http://webstandardsgroup.org/ See http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm for some hints on posting to the list getting help **
Re: [WSG] Target sued over non-accessible site
From: Ted Drake [EMAIL PROTECTED] This has the potential for making some positive improvements in the commercial web sphere. Target is not blind to good design. Their new prescription bottles have been hailed as one of the best designs of the last decade (I think they were designed by a graduate student before Target purchased them. But at least they recognized the value) Target has also commissioned top fashion and architecture designers to develop affordable products (Michael Graves, Phiippe Stark, ...) Target may actually replace their site with an insightful, accessible solution that is a model for other companies. Unfortunately, it takes a law suit to get corporations to make changes these days. I'm dumbfounded if, in fact, Target was advised of the absence of Alt text and did nothing. I want to believe there must be more to the story :-) That said, I think it does emphasize the responsibility that web designers have to make their sites accessible - for no other reason, then it's the good and moral thing to do. And with that said, I believe the authors and marketers of JAWS should be ripped a new orifice for selling a seriously flawed application that itself does not support long-standing standards. I feel better now. -- Al Sparber PVII http://www.projectseven.com Designing with CSS is sometimes like barreling down a crumbling mountain road at 90 miles per hour secure in the knowledge that repairs are scheduled for next Tuesday. ** The discussion list for http://webstandardsgroup.org/ See http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm for some hints on posting to the list getting help **
Re: [WSG] Target sued over non-accessible site
From: Joseph R. B. Taylor [EMAIL PROTECTED] The only thing I don't understand is how on earth does a blind person pick out items that rely on a photograph (clothes etc)... If you go to Target's home page, you will find, in the left column what appear to be headlines describing sale and special items. They are images - and there is no Alt text. Blind people do shop :-). -- Al Sparber PVII http://www.projectseven.com Designing with CSS is sometimes like barreling down a crumbling mountain road at 90 miles per hour secure in the knowledge that repairs are scheduled for next Tuesday. ** The discussion list for http://webstandardsgroup.org/ See http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm for some hints on posting to the list getting help **
Re: [WSG] Target sued over non-accessible site
The only thing I don't understand is how on earth does a blind person pick out items that rely on a photograph (clothes etc)... If you go to Target's home page, you will find, in the left column what appear to be headlines describing sale and special items. They are images - and there is no Alt text. Blind people do shop :-). There are varying degrees of blindness, too, so someone looking at one of those images may go, Oh, wait, is that a red jumper or a parka? Alt text can help in that respect, if the user has a good text-to-speech tool installed. Leslie Riggs ** The discussion list for http://webstandardsgroup.org/ See http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm for some hints on posting to the list getting help **
RE: [WSG] Target sued over non-accessible site
Dennis, thanks for that link, an interesting opinion, and one that flies in the face of several court cases throughout the US (in particular Florida a few years ago) The New York State Attorney General offered a legal opinion that all web site originating within that state are subject to Section 508 of the 1973 Rehabilitation Act I read that and I thought huh? That can't be right. And reading the page on the link provided, it turns out that statement isn't quite right. The NY State AG said that the Americans With Disabilities Act requires that private web sites be accessible to blind and visually impaired Internet users. Two things of note here: First, it is the ADA that is cited, NOT Section 508 of the US Vocational Rehabilitation Act. Section 508 is NOT applicable as the VRA applies soleley to US Federal agencies (and some organisations funded primarely with federal money, such as some universities), it always has, and always will. This is an important distinction, because the ADA does not mention anywhere in its text that it covers access to the internet (It was written pre-1990 and signed on July 26, 1992). Therefore, to state that the ADA applies also to companies doing business over the internet is a point that can be argued. In fact, while it seems logical that it *should* apply, that very argument has been used several times to lose court cases and make bad precedents (I don't have time to dig my archives for references, but if anyone's interested, I'll be pleased to do so). Since the ADA doesn't not mention the internet, it also does not provide compliance guidelines for websites. While it is logical that either WCAG or 508 would be followed, sadly, that's not how the law functions. So we have a law that doesn't technically apply, despite the opinion of one AG, and even if it did apply, there is no compliance schedule to guide people (unlike for physical structures, such as ramps (prescribed gradient of 1:12, or door width of clear opening width of 32, etc). In my opinion, this is a positive statement by an AG, but one that will not accomplish a whole lot. Big splash in a small pond :( Secondly, the AG makes reference to people who are blind and visually impaired using the internet. Which is good. But what about all the *other* disabilities? What about folks with mobility impairments? Those with seizure disorders? Cognitive disabilities? Etc... People with disabilities like that also have accessibility needs. The problem with that statement is that it could be used *against* accessibility. The way precedent works, lawyers and courts look for things that have been said before and use it to build up their cases (or decisions in the case of a court). It is easy to see how an attorney defending a client with a non-accessible website could say something like Yes, but the NY State AG said that the ADA applied to blind user, without mentioning any other disabilities, therefore, the AG's statement cannot be used to support the fact that the ADA applies to all accessibility aspects on the internet. The good thing is, such a statement can't really be used as a legal precedent, but it will certainly influence thinking. Finally, that page speaks about settlements. If you do a bit of research on the web, you'll notice that there are next to NO decisions in court cases against businesses with non accessible court cases. The few that do have decisions are actually *against* accessibility. In fact, I know of only one case that was successfully won by the plaintiff, and this was in Australia not in the US, against the Olympic Committee's website. I would imagine that there *are* more successful cases out there, just haven't heard of them. This does NOT mean that there aren't a lot of companies that are sued, just that the majority will settle out of court. This is good, at least there may be some improvement out of it, but settlements can't be used as legal precendents, which means that actual court cases still have nothing to support the fact that the ADA applies to the internet (the situation may be different in other countries, of course, as the ADA doesn't apply outside the US [yes, I've had people tell me it applied worldwide!!!]) Please note, I'm not an attorney, nor do I pretend to be one :) I am, however, a person with a disability who has been doing a lot of grassroot advocacy and work with/around the ADA, and web accessibility, for over a decade now. Cheers, I hope my long mail hasn't bored you to tears Nic ** The discussion list for http://webstandardsgroup.org/ See http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm for some hints on posting to the list getting help **
Re: [WSG] Target sued over non-accessible site
So I have a question, so even if it's Alt Text, how would a blind person even see to read?Al Sparber [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: From: "Joseph R. B. Taylor" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> The only thing I don't understand is how on earth does a blind person pick out items that rely on a photograph (clothes etc)...If you go to Target's home page, you will find, in the left column what appear to be headlines describing sale and special items. They are images - and there is no Alt text. Blind people do shop :-).-- Al SparberPVIIhttp://www.projectseven.com"Designing with CSS is sometimes like barreling down a crumbling mountain road at 90 miles per hour secure in the knowledge that repairs are scheduled for next Tuesday".**The discussion list for http://webstandardsgroup.org/See http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfmfor some hints on posting to the list getting help**__Do You Yahoo!?Tired of spam? Yahoo! Mail has the best spam protection around http://mail.yahoo.com
Re: [WSG] Target sued over non-accessible site
Alt text is read aloud be a screen reader for those who have sight disabilities I believe. Minh D. Tran wrote: So I have a question, so even if it's Alt Text, how would a blind person even see to read? Al Sparber [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: From: "Joseph R. B. Taylor" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> The only thing I don't understand is how on earth does a blind person pick out items that rely on a photograph (clothes etc)... If you go to Target's home page, you will find, in the left column what appear to be headlines describing sale and special items. They are images - and there is no Alt text. Blind people do shop :-). -- Al Sparber PVII http://www.projectseven.com "Designing with CSS is sometimes like barreling down a crumbling mountain road at 90 miles per hour secure in the knowledge that repairs are scheduled for next Tuesday". ** The discussion list for http://webstandardsgroup.org/ See http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm for some hints on posting to the list getting help ** __ Do You Yahoo!? Tired of spam? Yahoo! Mail has the best spam protection around http://mail.yahoo.com ** The discussion list for http://webstandardsgroup.org/ See http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm for some hints on posting to the list & getting help **
Re: [WSG] Target sued over non-accessible site
From: Minh D. Tran [EMAIL PROTECTED] To: wsg@webstandardsgroup.org Sent: Thursday, February 09, 2006 2:32 PM Subject: Re: [WSG] Target sued over non-accessible site So I have a question, so even if it's Alt Text, how would a blind person even see to read? - It's read to them with a special application called an assistive reader. The application reads the alt text and/or title, or provides a means to open a special file if a long description attribute is used. ** The discussion list for http://webstandardsgroup.org/ See http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm for some hints on posting to the list getting help **
Re: [WSG] cool FAQ page [follow up]
Thierry Koblentz said: Are you saying that you disagree with my interpretation of these articles or that I am plain wrong? Both. You have misinterpreted the articles, and have formed an opinion based on that misintrepretation. Further, you are defending your opinion by simply being contrary and nothing more (e.g. your claim that divs are hacks; you use skip links on your site but are argueing here that every link must load an entirely new document). the popup window reference is irrelevant. If you simply replace opening new windows with using jump links If you replaced it with chocolate orange cake it would make sense according to your logic, but it becomes glaringly obvious just how wrong that logic is. What you are calling jump links are nothing more than hypertext links. Hypertext links are the foundation of the web. W3C define hypertext links like this: A link is a connection from one web resource to another [1]... The destination anchor of a link may be an element within an HTML document.[2] It seems that for the author the bottom line is *consistency* Consistency *is* the bottom line for usability. I have never disputed that. Nielsen also says use platform conventions. Creating a list of links to resources within a page is a convention for the web. [1]: http://www.w3.org/TR/1999/REC-html401-19991224/struct/links.html#h-12.1 [2]:http://www.w3.org/TR/1999/REC-html401-19991224/struct/links.html#h-12.1.1 kind regards Terrence Wood. ** The discussion list for http://webstandardsgroup.org/ See http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm for some hints on posting to the list getting help **
Re: [WSG] Target sued over non-accessible site
Blind Cal student sues Target. Suit charges retailer's Web site cannot be used by the sightless. ... What I hope is that Target and other online merchants will realize how important it is to reach 1.3 million people in this nation and the growing baby-boomer population who will also be losing vision, said plaintiff Bruce Sexton Jr., 24, a blind third-year student at UC Berkeley. Sexton, who is president of the California Association of Blind Students, said making Target's Web site accessible to the blind would also make it more navigable by those without vision problems http://tinyurl.com/7ze7p __ I'm happy to see this. thanks. a question. I just installed the extension Fangs on mozilla last night (i don't think its available for the latest Firefox version, yet). https://addons.mozilla.org/extensions/moreinfo.php?application=firefoxcategory=Developer%20Toolsnumpg=10id=402 hu. it doesn't say it will install on Mozilla, but visited with mozilla and it did - works fine. does anyone have any opinion as to how accurate it is? other users here? cheers Donna -- Donna Jones Portland, Maine 207 772 0266 http://www.westendwebs.com/ ** The discussion list for http://webstandardsgroup.org/ See http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm for some hints on posting to the list getting help **
Re: [WSG] cool FAQ page [follow up]
From: Terrence Wood [EMAIL PROTECTED] It seems that for the author the bottom line is *consistency* Consistency *is* the bottom line for usability. I have never disputed that. Nielsen also says use platform conventions. Creating a list of links to resources within a page is a convention for the web. I hope to hell I'm not opening a can of worms here. Getting away from the FAQ thing to links within documents, I find that sort of navigation almost as annoying as popup windows. It might very well be a convention, but I do consider it a negative for usability. Very distracting - even more so when there are mixed links in the same area, some of which scroll to another point in the doc, while others load new documents. Back to the FAQs now :-) -- Al Sparber PVII http://www.projectseven.com Designing with CSS is sometimes like barreling down a crumbling mountain road at 90 miles per hour secure in the knowledge that repairs are scheduled for next Tuesday. ** The discussion list for http://webstandardsgroup.org/ See http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm for some hints on posting to the list getting help **
Re: [WSG] cool FAQ page [follow up]
Al Sparber: Very distracting Are you talking about when there is just the list of links is first and you must scroll to get the first screen of content? - even more so when there are mixed links some scroll to another point, others load new documents. Agreed. This is really about consistency =) kind regards Terrence Wood. ** The discussion list for http://webstandardsgroup.org/ See http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm for some hints on posting to the list getting help **
Re: [WSG] Target sued over non-accessible site
So I have a question, so even if it's Alt Text, how would a blind person even see to read? Minh, Apart from screen readers that others have mentioned, there are also devices such as refreshable braille devices, which transfer text into braille: http://www.flickr.com/photos/russweakley/58957885/ It might be worth having a read of this article that outlines the various assitive technologies and how they are used: Disabilities and Technologies http://www.usability.com.au/resources/statistics.cfm There is also a quick and dirty version here: http://www.maxdesign.com.au/presentation/accessibility/04.htm HTH Russ ** The discussion list for http://webstandardsgroup.org/ See http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm for some hints on posting to the list getting help **
Re: [WSG] cool FAQ page [follow up]
At 12:22 PM 2/9/2006, Al Sparber wrote: Getting away from the FAQ thing to links within documents, I find that sort of navigation almost as annoying as popup windows. It might very well be a convention, but I do consider it a negative for usability. Very distracting - even more so when there are mixed links in the same area, some of which scroll to another point in the doc, while others load new documents. These days there are attempts made to distinguish different kinds of links -- those to pages within the same site vs. those to external sites, and those that bring up pages within the current window vs. those that (dog forbid!) open a new window. If a web designer further distinguished between links that jump within a page vs. those that load a new page, would that obviate your objection? In other words, is the problem the mixture of link types leading to frustrations of expectation, or is the problem with the local link itself? Paul ** The discussion list for http://webstandardsgroup.org/ See http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm for some hints on posting to the list getting help **
Re: [WSG] cool FAQ page [follow up]
From: Terrence Wood [EMAIL PROTECTED] Al Sparber: Very distracting Are you talking about when there is just the list of links is first and you must scroll to get the first screen of content? For me, it's any link that scrolls the page. I'm old enough to get disoriented, I guess. The exception, of course, is skip links designed and implemented to be accessible only to assistive devices and keyboard surfers. -- Al ** The discussion list for http://webstandardsgroup.org/ See http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm for some hints on posting to the list getting help **
Re: [WSG] cool FAQ page [follow up]
Terrence Wood wrote: Thierry Koblentz said: Are you saying that you disagree with my interpretation of these articles or that I am plain wrong? Both. You have misinterpreted the articles, and have formed an opinion based on that misintrepretation. I disagree. Further, you are defending your opinion by simply being contrary and nothing more (e.g. your claim that divs are hacks; you use skip links on your site but are argueing here that every link must load an entirely new document). Wow! This time you're seriously wrong. What I'm using on my site has absolutely nothing to with the way I interpret the USEIT articles. FYI, I'm not only using skip links, but also popup windows. Does that make me unaware of the issues related to both? the popup window reference is irrelevant. If you simply replace opening new windows with using jump links If you replaced it with chocolate orange cake it would make sense according to your logic, but it becomes glaringly obvious just how wrong that logic is. I disagree, and FWIW I find your analogy pretty silly. One can click on a jump link, not on a chocolate orange cake. What you are calling jump links are nothing more than hypertext links. Hypertext links are the foundation of the web. W3C define hypertext links like this: A link is a connection from one web resource to another [1]... The destination anchor of a link may be an element within an HTML document.[2] That's the W3C talking, AFAIK, it has absolutely nothing to do with usability/accessibility. It is about how things are supposed to work, not how they are supposed to be implemented. For example, accesskey is a proper attribute, part of the recommendations, but there are usability/accessibility issues attached to it, isn't? And there are other examples... It seems that for the author the bottom line is *consistency* Consistency *is* the bottom line for usability. I have never disputed that. Nielsen also says use platform conventions. Creating a list of links to resources within a page is a convention for the web. So how can you say that jump links in a document are consistent with the navigation links for example? Users click on the latter and are taken to another page, they click on the former and are taken in a different location on the same page. How consistent is that? Actually, I believe the key is to let the user *know* what's about to happen when he clicks on something that is going to do anything else than loading a *new* document. We see that with links that open popup windows so why should we think it should be different with other behaviors? In short, I believe that a FAQ page that says clicking on the Qs will reveals the As below is less an issue than jump links that do not warn the user of what's gonna happen next. Regards, Thierry | www.TJKDesign.com ** The discussion list for http://webstandardsgroup.org/ See http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm for some hints on posting to the list getting help **
Re: [WSG] cool FAQ page [follow up]
Terrence Wood wrote: Thierry Koblentz said: Are you saying that you disagree with my interpretation of these articles or that I am plain wrong? Both. You have misinterpreted the articles, and have formed an opinion based on that misintrepretation. I disagree. Further, you are defending your opinion by simply being contrary and nothing more (e.g. your claim that divs are hacks; you use skip links on your site but are argueing here that every link must load an entirely new document). Wow! This time you're seriously wrong. What I'm using on my site has absolutely nothing to with the way I interpret the USEIT articles. FYI, I'm not only using skip links, but also popup windows. Does that make me unaware of the issues related to both? the popup window reference is irrelevant. If you simply replace opening new windows with using jump links If you replaced it with chocolate orange cake it would make sense according to your logic, but it becomes glaringly obvious just how wrong that logic is. I disagree, and FWIW I find your analogy pretty silly. One can click on a jump link, not on a chocolate orange cake. What you are calling jump links are nothing more than hypertext links. Hypertext links are the foundation of the web. W3C define hypertext links like this: A link is a connection from one web resource to another [1]... The destination anchor of a link may be an element within an HTML document.[2] That's the W3C talking, AFAIK, it has absolutely nothing to do with usability/accessibility. It is about how things are supposed to work, not how they are supposed to be implemented. For example, accesskey is a proper attribute, part of the recommendations, but there are usability/accessibility issues attached to it, isn't? And there are other examples... It seems that for the author the bottom line is *consistency* Consistency *is* the bottom line for usability. I have never disputed that. Nielsen also says use platform conventions. Creating a list of links to resources within a page is a convention for the web. So how can you say that jump links in a document are consistent with the navigation links for example? Users click on the latter and are taken to another page, they click on the former and are taken in a different location on the same page. How consistent is that? Actually, I believe the key is to let the user *know* what's about to happen when he clicks on something that is going to do anything else than loading a *new* document. We see that with links that open popup windows so why should we think it should be different with other behaviors? In short, I believe that a FAQ page that says clicking on the Qs will reveals the As below is less an issue than jump links that do not warn the user of what's gonna happen next. Regards, Thierry | www.TJKDesign.com ** The discussion list for http://webstandardsgroup.org/ See http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm for some hints on posting to the list getting help **
[WSG] Today's lesson: Respect - be courteous up or leave
I want to talk today about respect. For those of you who have not heard of this concept, respect is sometimes defined as courteous regard for people's feelings. When you reply to a post on the list, you should at all times try to do so with respect. Everyone on this list is entitled to their own opinion. Sometimes they may be factually incorrect, other times they may have a different view from you but EVERYONE should be treated with respect. Below are some examples of replies that LACK respect: You are totally wrong That is silly That is stupid You know nothing about... You are dumb You smell Below are some more respectful alternatives: I'm not sure I agree with that I think you may be misinterpreting... I respectfully disagree for the following reasons Have you considered taking a bath? Today's lesson: when replying to others, be courteous or leave! In the near future I will cover a more subtle concept: how not to always have the last word on a subject. However, that is a bit advanced for now, one step at a time. Russ Miss Manors ** The discussion list for http://webstandardsgroup.org/ See http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm for some hints on posting to the list getting help **
Re: [WSG] cool FAQ page [follow up]
From: Paul Novitski [EMAIL PROTECTED] If a web designer further distinguished between links that jump within a page vs. those that load a new page, would that obviate your objection? It would mitigate it. I find it easier to tolerate a FAQ or Q/A thing if it's apparent that all of the questions are links to answers far down the page. So if I see a compact list of 20 questions and a long scrollbar, I'm prepared for the page to scroll when I click a link. In other words, is the problem the mixture of link types leading to frustrations of expectation, or is the problem with the local link itself? It's more an issue of mixing the link types. -- Al Sparber PVII http://www.projectseven.com Designing with CSS is sometimes like barreling down a crumbling mountain road at 90 miles per hour secure in the knowledge that repairs are scheduled for next Tuesday. ** The discussion list for http://webstandardsgroup.org/ See http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm for some hints on posting to the list getting help **
Re: [WSG] cool FAQ page [follow up]
Hey Tierry and Terrance, This is a respectful suggestion. Since Jakob Nielsen is not dead and Useit.com is not the King James Bible, Talmud, Torah, Quaran etc., why not email him and get his opinion on this. In fact, I asked his opinion on this recent adlinks phenomena just today, where sites are using scripts to place / selling ads linking to sites that don't relate specifically to the article. He responded briefly within two hours. All the best, Jay Thierry Koblentz wrote: Terrence Wood wrote: Wow! This time you're seriously wrong. What I'm using on my site has absolutely nothing to with the way I interpret the USEIT articles. FYI, I'm not only using skip links, but also popup windows. Does that make me unaware of the issues related to both? the popup window reference is irrelevant. If you simply replace "opening new windows" with "using jump links" If you replaced it with "chocolate orange cake" it would make sense according to your logic, but it becomes glaringly obvious just how wrong that logic is. I disagree, and FWIW I find your analogy pretty silly. One can click on a "jump link", not on a "chocolate orange cake". What you are calling "jump links" are nothing more than hypertext links. Hypertext links are the foundation of the web. W3C define hypertext links like this: "A link is a connection from one web resource to another [1]... The destination anchor of a link may be an element within an HTML document.[2]" That's the W3C talking, AFAIK, it has absolutely nothing to do with usability/accessibility. It is about how things are supposed to work, not how they are supposed to be implemented. For example, accesskey is a proper attribute, part of the recommendations, but there are usability/accessibility issues attached to it, isn't? And there are other examples... It seems that for the author the bottom line is *consistency* Consistency *is* the bottom line for usability. I have never disputed that. Nielsen also says use platform conventions. Creating a list of links to resources within a page is a convention for the web. So how can you say that "jump links" in a document are consistent with the navigation links for example? Users click on the latter and are taken to another page, they click on the former and are taken in a different location on the same page. How consistent is that? Actually, I believe the key is to let the user *know* what's about to happen when he clicks on something that is going to do anything else than loading a *new* document. We see that with links that open popup windows so why should we think it should be different with other "behaviors"? In short, I believe that a FAQ page that says "clicking on the Qs will reveals the As below" is less an issue than "jump links" that do not warn the user of what's gonna happen next. Regards, Thierry | www.TJKDesign.com ** The discussion list for http://webstandardsgroup.org/ See http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm for some hints on posting to the list getting help **
Re: [WSG] Target sued over non-accessible site
thanks Russruss - maxdesign [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: So I have a question, so even if it's Alt Text, how would a blind person even see to read?Minh,Apart from screen readers that others have mentioned, there are also devicessuch as refreshable braille devices, which transfer text into braille:http://www.flickr.com/photos/russweakley/58957885/It might be worth having a read of this article that outlines the variousassitive technologies and how they are used:Disabilities and Technologieshttp://www.usability.com.au/resources/statistics.cfmThere is also a quick and dirty version here:http://www.maxdesign.com.au/presentation/accessibility/04.htmHTHRuss**The discussion list for http://webstandardsgroup.org/See http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfmfor some hints on posting to the list getting help** Brings words and photos together (easily) with PhotoMail - it's free and works with Yahoo! Mail.
Re: [WSG] cool FAQ page [follow up]
Thierry Koblentz said: Both. You have misinterpreted the articles, and have formed an opinion based on that misintrepretation. I disagree. So you keep saying, but your actions are different. you use skip links on your site but are argueing here that every link must load an entirely new document. What I'm using on my site has absolutely nothing to with the way I interpret the USEIT articles. I never said it did. What I said is you are practicing the opposite of what you are preaching. If you replaced it with chocolate orange cake it would make sense according to your logic, but it becomes glaringly obvious just how wrong that logic is. I disagree in fact, you *do* agree with me, you just seem unable to see how it relates to the argument you are putting forward... Read on FWIW I find your analogy pretty silly. Exactly. As is your assertion that a recommendation against opening new windows is a recommendation against using in-page anchors. Substituting anything in Nielsens recommendation distorts the recommendation: it *is not* what he said, and it *does not* make sense. using jump links is not the same as opening new windows and it clearly isn't chocolate orange cake. Hypertext links are the foundation of the web. That's the W3C talking, AFAIK, it has absolutely nothing to do with usability/accessibility. Web Standards. Consistency. Platform conventions. The thing that defines the web. It is about how things are supposed to work Exactly. If things work the way they are supposed to, then you can't get much more usable than that. [accesskey's have] usability/accessibility issues attached Yes they do, but that is a browser implementation issue, not a markup issue. e.g. Macs browser's and Opera's accesskey implemenatation do not conflict with the OS like other PC browsers. So how can you say that jump links in a document are consistent with the navigation links for example? They don't have to be, in the same way that main nav, secondary nav, and in-content links are generally easy to distinguish and understand: they should be consistent within the context in which they appear (internally consistent within a block?). That said, you might have to hack in a div or heading here and there. See: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hyperlink#toctitle Actually, I believe the key is to let the user *know* what's about to happen... a FAQ page that says clicking on the Qs will reveals the As below is less an issue than jump links that do not warn the user of what's gonna happen next. When a user clicks on a link they *know* they will be taken to the resource described by that hypertext link. It doesn't even need an explantion because it is so fundamental. kind regards Terrence Wood. ** The discussion list for http://webstandardsgroup.org/ See http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm for some hints on posting to the list getting help **
Re: [WSG] Today's lesson: Respect - be courteous up or leave
russ - maxdesign wrote: Russ Miss Manors I respectfully would like to point out that Miss Manners may be more to the point. However, Russ, you are perfectly capable of representing big houses, it that's what floats your boat ;-) Cheers Mark Harris Technology Research and Consultancy Services ** The discussion list for http://webstandardsgroup.org/ See http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm for some hints on posting to the list getting help **
[WSG] IE7 Compatibility Team
Wow. Microsoft are taking very pro-active measures to assist the developer community in fixing sites for IE7. I received an email from someone on the 'IE7 compatibility team' with a screenshot of our site in IE7 and a list of all our stylesheets with all the filters and hacks identified that we may need to modify. I'm impressed. Have other site owners received any similar contact from the IE7CPTTM yet? C a d e W h i t b o u r n Web Designer - Web Projects and Business Development Australian Stock Exchange www.asx.com.au ** The discussion list for http://webstandardsgroup.org/ See http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm for some hints on posting to the list getting help **
RE: [WSG] IE7 Compatibility Team
Have other site owners received any similar contact from the IE7CPTTM yet? no can you share yours? best kvnmcwebn ** The discussion list for http://webstandardsgroup.org/ See http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm for some hints on posting to the list getting help **
Re: [WSG] IE7 Compatibility Team
On 10 Feb 2006, at 10:49 AM, Cade Whitbourn wrote: Wow. Microsoft are taking very pro-active measures to assist the developer community in fixing sites for IE7. I received an email from someone on the 'IE7 compatibility team' with a screenshot of our site in IE7 and a list of all our stylesheets with all the filters and hacks identified that we may need to modify. I'm impressed. Have other site owners received any similar contact from the IE7CPTTM yet? C a d e W h i t b o u r n Web Designer - Web Projects and Business Development Australian Stock Exchange www.asx.com.au Hmm. ASX, hey? Well, they sure know where the money is... Maybe they're starting at the top and working their way down? Or maybe they just have a vested interest - ? N (Cynical? Me? Naah...) ___ Omnivision. Websight. http://www.omnivision.com.au/ ** The discussion list for http://webstandardsgroup.org/ See http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm for some hints on posting to the list getting help **
Re: [WSG] Today's lesson: 'Respect' - be courteous up or leave
If cyberspace forums and message boards are the standard of measure, then common courtesy is anything but common anymore. The ability to put both distance and anonymity between one's self and someone else opens the way for people to say things they wouldn't dare say to someone's face. Sometimes, that's actually a good thing. Most of the time, though, it just leads to making common courtesy an uncommon online virtue.g. On Thu Feb 9 13:58 , russ - maxdesign sent:I want to talk today about respect. For those of you who have not heard of this concept, respect is sometimes defined as courteous regard for people's feelings. When you reply to a post on the list, you should at all times try to do so with respect. Everyone on this list is entitled to their own opinion. Sometimes they may be factually incorrect, other times they may have a different view from you but EVERYONE should be treated with respect. Below are some examples of replies that LACK respect: You are totally wrong That is silly That is stupid You know nothing about... You are dumb You smell Below are some more respectful alternatives: I'm not sure I agree with that I think you may be misinterpreting... I respectfully disagree for the following reasons Have you considered taking a bath? Today's lesson: when replying to others, be courteous or leave! In the near future I will cover a more subtle concept: how not to always have the last word on a subject. However, that is a bit advanced for now, one step at a time. Russ Miss Manors The discussion list for http://webstandardsgroup.org/ See http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm for some hints on posting to the list getting help ** The discussion list for http://webstandardsgroup.org/ See http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm for some hints on posting to the list & getting help **
RE: [WSG] IE7 Compatibility Team
Cade Whitbourn wrote: Wow. Microsoft are taking very pro-active measures to assist the developer community in fixing sites for IE7. I received an email from someone on the 'IE7 compatibility team' with a screenshot of our site in IE7 and a list of all our stylesheets with all the filters and hacks identified that we may need to modify. I'm impressed. Have other site owners received any similar contact from the IE7CPTTM yet? I would send them back a list of the css bugs they should fix so the filters and hacks that no longer work in IE7 won't be needed anyway. Geoff. ** The discussion list for http://webstandardsgroup.org/ See http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm for some hints on posting to the list getting help **
Re: [WSG] IE7 Compatibility Team
Why would you hack standards compliant code for Microsoft. Ask if they would like to foot the bill or if they had considered writing an application that was standards compliant. Forget that as it may not have all the bugs and vulnerabilities that we have come to know and love. Yours Sincerely, Alastair Steel On 10/02/2006, at 11:40 AM, Geoff Pack wrote: Cade Whitbourn wrote: Wow. Microsoft are taking very pro-active measures to assist the developer community in fixing sites for IE7. I received an email from someone on the 'IE7 compatibility team' with a screenshot of our site in IE7 and a list of all our stylesheets with all the filters and hacks identified that we may need to modify. I'm impressed. Have other site owners received any similar contact from the IE7CPTTM yet? I would send them back a list of the css bugs they should fix so the filters and hacks that no longer work in IE7 won't be needed anyway. Geoff. ** The discussion list for http://webstandardsgroup.org/ See http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm for some hints on posting to the list getting help ** ** The discussion list for http://webstandardsgroup.org/ See http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm for some hints on posting to the list getting help **
Re: Edit: Re: [WSG] [Please don't flame :)] HTML, XML what's the difference.
Stephen Stagg wrote: I understand that this is already possible in most modern browsers but it will never be used or properly implemented unless HTML is dropped as a language. Worried about screen-readers? I don't see why, the screen-readers would have to parse the CSS to find clues about how to read the content, but then modern ones already do. :) And how, pray tell, would a screen reader know - based on a series of presentational rules - what the meaning of a made-up tag soup is? -- Patrick H. Lauke __ re·dux (adj.): brought back; returned. used postpositively [latin : re-, re- + dux, leader; see duke.] www.splintered.co.uk | www.photographia.co.uk http://redux.deviantart.com __ Web Standards Project (WaSP) Accessibility Task Force http://webstandards.org/ __ ** The discussion list for http://webstandardsgroup.org/ See http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm for some hints on posting to the list getting help **
Re: [WSG] Today's lesson: Respect - be courteous up or leave
Russ, that was beautiful. The gentle sarcasm brought a tear of mirth to my eye. ta. lol. russ - maxdesign wrote: I want to talk today about respect. For those of you who have not heard of this concept, respect is sometimes defined as courteous regard for people's feelings. When you reply to a post on the list, you should at all times try to do so with respect. Everyone on this list is entitled to their own opinion. Sometimes they may be factually incorrect, other times they may have a different view from you but EVERYONE should be treated with respect. Below are some examples of replies that LACK respect: You are totally wrong That is silly That is stupid You know nothing about... You are dumb You smell Below are some more respectful alternatives: I'm not sure I agree with that I think you may be misinterpreting... I respectfully disagree for the following reasons Have you considered taking a bath? Today's lesson: when replying to others, be courteous or leave! In the near future I will cover a more subtle concept: how not to always have the last word on a subject. However, that is a bit advanced for now, one step at a time. Russ Miss Manors ** The discussion list for http://webstandardsgroup.org/ See http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm for some hints on posting to the list getting help ** ** The discussion list for http://webstandardsgroup.org/ See http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm for some hints on posting to the list getting help **
Re: [WSG] Target sued over non-accessible site
As a blind web site designer who has his alt tag reading protion of his screen reading software. I would say their should be both images and a text description. I have come across many fully sighted (20/20 Vision( persons that have difficulty with even the simplest images. I like to provide a link to a page with the image and a full text version. And how about dialup users. Many graphic images can slow a dialup user's access signifcantlly. Angus MacKinnon MacKinnon Crest Saying Latin - Audentes Fortuna Juvat English - Fortune Assists The Daring Web page http://www.infoforce-services.com Choroideremia Research Foundation Inc. 2nd Vice president http://www.choroideremia.org ** The discussion list for http://webstandardsgroup.org/ See http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm for some hints on posting to the list getting help **
Re: [WSG] cool FAQ page [follow up]
Terrence Wood wrote: Thierry Koblentz said: Both. You have misinterpreted the articles, and have formed an opinion based on that misintrepretation. I disagree. So you keep saying, but your actions are different. I'm not sure I agree with that. Please see the bottom of this message. you use skip links on your site but are argueing here that every link must load an entirely new document. What I'm using on my site has absolutely nothing to with the way I interpret the USEIT articles. I never said it did. What I said is you are practicing the opposite of what you are preaching. I think you may be misinterpreting. I am *not* preaching anything, I am *not* saying what should be done or used, I am only arguing about the fact that jump links have been presented in this thread as a usability-free solution. That's all. If you replaced it with chocolate orange cake it would make sense according to your logic, but it becomes glaringly obvious just how wrong that logic is. I disagree in fact, you *do* agree with me, you just seem unable to see how it relates to the argument you are putting forward... Read on FWIW I find your analogy pretty silly. Exactly. As is your assertion that a recommendation against opening new windows is a recommendation against using in-page anchors. Substituting anything in Nielsens recommendation distorts the recommendation: it *is not* what he said, and it *does not* make sense. using jump links is not the same as opening new windows and it clearly isn't chocolate orange cake. I respectfully disagree for the following reasons: Following Jay's excellent advice, I wrote an email to Jacob Nielsen telling him about my interpretation of both of his articles. I explain the little issue we were discussing here and asked him if he could find the time to answer this question: My interpretation of these articles is that the reference to popup windows does not exclude jump links from being an issue themselves in regard to usability. Less than half an hour later, I received his brief answer: quote You are right: links within the same page almost always cause confusion in user testing, and it is almost always best to avoid them. /quote Hypertext links are the foundation of the web. That's the W3C talking, AFAIK, it has absolutely nothing to do with usability/accessibility. Web Standards. Consistency. Platform conventions. The thing that defines the web. It is about how things are supposed to work Exactly. If things work the way they are supposed to, then you can't get much more usable than that. I respectfully disagree for the following reasons: In an ideal world, things work the way they are supposed to; unfortunatley the Web is not an ideal world and in my opinion there are 2 paths: recommendations and best practice. The latter usually address usability/accessibility issue. [accesskey's have] usability/accessibility issues attached Yes they do, but that is a browser implementation issue, not a markup issue. e.g. Macs browser's and Opera's accesskey implemenatation do not conflict with the OS like other PC browsers. What about assistive devices? Setting accesskeys that clash with user's shortcut keys? What about implementing redundant mechanisms that break keyboard navigation (onkeypress)? What about about implementing skip link that follow the recommendations but also break keyboard navigation. These are usability issues that often come up simply because authors implement techniques relying too much on recommendations. So how can you say that jump links in a document are consistent with the navigation links for example? They don't have to be, in the same way that main nav, secondary nav, and in-content links are generally easy to distinguish and understand: they should be consistent within the context in which they appear (internally consistent within a block?). That said, you might have to hack in a div or heading here and there. See: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hyperlink#toctitle Actually, I believe the key is to let the user *know* what's about to happen... a FAQ page that says clicking on the Qs will reveals the As below is less an issue than jump links that do not warn the user of what's gonna happen next. When a user clicks on a link they *know* they will be taken to the resource described by that hypertext link. It doesn't even need an explantion because it is so fundamental. Apparently Jacob Nielsen doesn't agree on these points... Regards, Thierry | www.TJKDesign.com ** The discussion list for http://webstandardsgroup.org/ See http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm for some hints on posting to the list getting help **
Re: [WSG] Target sued over non-accessible site
Angus at InfoForce Services wrote: As a blind web site designer who has his alt tag reading protion of his screen reading software. I would say their should be both images and a text description. I have come across many fully sighted (20/20 Vision( persons that have difficulty with even the simplest images. I like to provide a link to a page with the image and a full text version. And how about dialup users. Many graphic images can slow a dialup user's access signifcantlly. But in the case of the Target site, the images on the left-hand side are just images of text, so wouldn't really need a description. And on product pages themselves, the description is already given (although in a horridly inaccessible way, which uses display:none and can't be shown without javascript, among other things) P -- Patrick H. Lauke __ re·dux (adj.): brought back; returned. used postpositively [latin : re-, re- + dux, leader; see duke.] www.splintered.co.uk | www.photographia.co.uk http://redux.deviantart.com __ Web Standards Project (WaSP) Accessibility Task Force http://webstandards.org/ __ ** The discussion list for http://webstandardsgroup.org/ See http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm for some hints on posting to the list getting help **
RE: [WSG] IE7 Compatibility Team
To clarify just a little more: The purpose of their email to us was to make us aware of a 'compatibility' issue that our site has with the beta preview of IE7. The compatibility issue is caused by our use of CSS filters. They specificially highlight our use of Star HTML Hack, Selector HTML Hack and the Holly Hack. Although they don't say it explicitly, the implication is that we should remove these from our CSS as the use of these filters fails in IE7. (I would like to just quote the email verbatim but it's headlined **Microsoft Confidential** which makes me nervous - even though there's no confidential information in the email that I can see). Cade. -Original Message- From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] On Behalf Of Alastair Steel Sent: Friday, 10 February 2006 11:53 AM To: wsg@webstandardsgroup.org Subject: Re: [WSG] IE7 Compatibility Team Why would you hack standards compliant code for Microsoft. Ask if they would like to foot the bill or if they had considered writing an application that was standards compliant. Forget that as it may not have all the bugs and vulnerabilities that we have come to know and love. Yours Sincerely, Alastair Steel On 10/02/2006, at 11:40 AM, Geoff Pack wrote: Cade Whitbourn wrote: Wow. Microsoft are taking very pro-active measures to assist the developer community in fixing sites for IE7. I received an email from someone on the 'IE7 compatibility team' with a screenshot of our site in IE7 and a list of all our stylesheets with all the filters and hacks identified that we may need to modify. I'm impressed. Have other site owners received any similar contact from the IE7CPTTM yet? I would send them back a list of the css bugs they should fix so the filters and hacks that no longer work in IE7 won't be needed anyway. Geoff. ** The discussion list for http://webstandardsgroup.org/ See http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm for some hints on posting to the list getting help ** ** The discussion list for http://webstandardsgroup.org/ See http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm for some hints on posting to the list getting help ** ** The discussion list for http://webstandardsgroup.org/ See http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm for some hints on posting to the list getting help **
Re: [WSG] Target sued over non-accessible site
Patrick which uses display:none and can't be shown without javascript, among other things) Most people have JAVAScript turned off, so I started to learn PHP. Angus MacKinnon MacKinnon Crest Saying Latin - Audentes Fortuna Juvat English - Fortune Assists The Daring Web page http://www.infoforce-services.com Choroideremia Research Foundation Inc. 2nd Vice president http://www.choroideremia.org ** The discussion list for http://webstandardsgroup.org/ See http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm for some hints on posting to the list getting help **
Re: [WSG] Target sued over non-accessible site
Angus at InfoForce Services wrote: Most people have JAVAScript turned off, According to what statistics? I think you'll find most people actually have it turned on. -- Lachlan Hunt http://lachy.id.au/ ** The discussion list for http://webstandardsgroup.org/ See http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm for some hints on posting to the list getting help **
[WSG] Download line in .htaccess
I do not know if this is off topic, so please reply to [EMAIL PROTECTED] A web site I maintain has a PDF to download. The host uses apache so if I use .htaccess in the root directory with the line: addType application/download .pdf Would I be correct? Angus MacKinnon MacKinnon Crest Saying Latin - Audentes Fortuna Juvat English - Fortune Assists The Daring Web page http://www.infoforce-services.com Choroideremia Research Foundation Inc. 2nd Vice president http://www.choroideremia.org ** The discussion list for http://webstandardsgroup.org/ See http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm for some hints on posting to the list getting help **
Re: [WSG] Target sued over non-accessible site
On 10/02/06, Lachlan Hunt [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: Angus at InfoForce Services wrote: Most people have JAVAScript turned off, According to what statistics? I think you'll find most people actually have it turned on. Indeed. I can report from some recent testing on the sites I work on (which have hundreds of thousands of members, and thousands of simultaneous users), that less than 0.1% of users had Javascript turned off. They're dating sites, so they're probably skewed more towards the home/casual user than the office user, but still... I was surprised it was so stark. ** The discussion list for http://webstandardsgroup.org/ See http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm for some hints on posting to the list getting help **
Re: [WSG] IE7 Compatibility Team
Cade Whitbourn wrote:
The compatibility issue is caused by our use of CSS filters. They
specificially highlight our use of Star HTML Hack, Selector HTML Hack
and the Holly Hack.
I'm not sure what you mean by the Selector HTML Hack.
The problem with the * html filter is that they removed it without
solving all the limitations it's required for. However, removing it was
the right move to make, because now that * html is removed from IE7, it
does make it completely safe to use for targeting IE6 and earlier, you
just need to sort out which limitations are still present, and thus
which patches are still required to be applied and find an alternate
filter to use.
Personally, I rarely use anything but the holly hack:
* html foo { height: 1%; }
And it turns out that for the one site I've fixed up, all I had to do
was remove most occurences of it from throughout my stylesheet and move
them all to an additional stylesheet which is now imported using a
conditional comment
!--[if lte IE 7]link rel=stylesheet type=text/css
href=/style/iehacks.css![endif]--
For example, I had many occurrences like this scattered throughout:
* html foo { height: 1%; }
* html bar { height: 1%; }
* html baz { height: 1%; }
Now, in iehacks.css, I have:
foo, bar, baz { height: 1%; }
It does make it a little cleaner and effectively makes the other
stylesheets hack free (except for the display:inline; patch to fix
double-margin float bugs and 1 or 2 IE6 only bugs applied with * html)
(I would like to just quote the email verbatim but it's headlined
**Microsoft Confidential** which makes me nervous - even though there's
no confidential information in the email that I can see).
Such things are thrown into many corporate e-mails for no other reason
than unjustified paranoia, I'm sure no-one would mind if you quoted it
fully. It sounds like they're probably sending the same template e-mail
to hundreds of sites (just customising it to mention specific hacks).
--
Lachlan Hunt
http://lachy.id.au/
**
The discussion list for http://webstandardsgroup.org/
See http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm
for some hints on posting to the list getting help
**
Re: [WSG] Download line in .htaccess
Angus at InfoForce Services wrote: I do not know if this is off topic, It's on topic because it's about MIME types, and MIME types are a standard. A web site I maintain has a PDF to download. The host uses apache so if I use .htaccess in the root directory with the line: addType application/download .pdf No, use this: AddType application/pdf .pdf (This may already be configured in the server's httpd.conf file, so that may even be unnecessary) It's cruel and unnecessary to use the wrong MIME type in order to force a file to be downloaded, use the correct MIME type and let the user's system decide what to do with the file. Some may have configured their's to automatically open PDFs, others may have configured it to save it to a file, and others have it set to prompt (e.g. the PDF Download extension). -- Lachlan Hunt http://lachy.id.au/ ** The discussion list for http://webstandardsgroup.org/ See http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm for some hints on posting to the list getting help **
Re: [WSG] IE7 Compatibility Team
Greetings,
From my experience when I run into an IE bug (double-margin / 3 pixel
jog) that could use height: 1% to fix it, I use display: inline as an
alternative and it saves a hack in your code or one less reason to use a
conditional comment. I haven't noticed any problems with other browsers
using this and I test on around 10 of them. Perhaps I haven't seen the
particular scenario yet but I think the height: 1% fix can safely be
tucked under a rug.
Later days,
Kenneth
Lachlan Hunt wrote:
Cade Whitbourn wrote:
The compatibility issue is caused by our use of CSS filters. They
specificially highlight our use of Star HTML Hack, Selector HTML Hack
and the Holly Hack.
I'm not sure what you mean by the Selector HTML Hack.
The problem with the * html filter is that they removed it without
solving all the limitations it's required for. However, removing it
was the right move to make, because now that * html is removed from
IE7, it does make it completely safe to use for targeting IE6 and
earlier, you just need to sort out which limitations are still
present, and thus which patches are still required to be applied and
find an alternate filter to use.
Personally, I rarely use anything but the holly hack:
* html foo { height: 1%; }
And it turns out that for the one site I've fixed up, all I had to do
was remove most occurences of it from throughout my stylesheet and
move them all to an additional stylesheet which is now imported using
a conditional comment
!--[if lte IE 7]link rel=stylesheet type=text/css
href=/style/iehacks.css![endif]--
For example, I had many occurrences like this scattered throughout:
* html foo { height: 1%; }
* html bar { height: 1%; }
* html baz { height: 1%; }
Now, in iehacks.css, I have:
foo, bar, baz { height: 1%; }
It does make it a little cleaner and effectively makes the other
stylesheets hack free (except for the display:inline; patch to fix
double-margin float bugs and 1 or 2 IE6 only bugs applied with * html)
(I would like to just quote the email verbatim but it's headlined
**Microsoft Confidential** which makes me nervous - even though there's
no confidential information in the email that I can see).
Such things are thrown into many corporate e-mails for no other reason
than unjustified paranoia, I'm sure no-one would mind if you quoted it
fully. It sounds like they're probably sending the same template
e-mail to hundreds of sites (just customising it to mention specific
hacks).
**
The discussion list for http://webstandardsgroup.org/
See http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm
for some hints on posting to the list getting help
**
Re: [WSG] Download line in .htaccess
Angus at InfoForce Services wrote: I do not know if this is off topic, so please reply to [EMAIL PROTECTED] A web site I maintain has a PDF to download. The host uses apache so if I use .htaccess in the root directory with the line: addType application/download .pdf I've never heard of application/download According to the standard mime types list, it's not an official type http://www.iana.org/assignments/media-types/application/ It *may* work, but only because browsers have no clue what you're actually sending them, as they don't recognise the mime type (unless this is some kind of unofficial de-facto type not listed by IANA). I'd play it safe and use addType application/octet-stream .pdf instead. P -- Patrick H. Lauke __ re·dux (adj.): brought back; returned. used postpositively [latin : re-, re- + dux, leader; see duke.] www.splintered.co.uk | www.photographia.co.uk http://redux.deviantart.com __ Web Standards Project (WaSP) Accessibility Task Force http://webstandards.org/ __ ** The discussion list for http://webstandardsgroup.org/ See http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm for some hints on posting to the list getting help **
Re: [WSG] Target sued over non-accessible site
Lachlan and Matt Thank you for the information. I should recheck. Do you have information about International web users? Angus MacKinnon MacKinnon Crest Saying Latin - Audentes Fortuna Juvat English - Fortune Assists The Daring Web page http://www.infoforce-services.com Choroideremia Research Foundation Inc. 2nd Vice president http://www.choroideremia.org ** The discussion list for http://webstandardsgroup.org/ See http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm for some hints on posting to the list getting help **
Re: [WSG] Target sued over non-accessible site
On 10/02/06, Angus at InfoForce Services [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: Lachlan and Matt Thank you for the information. I should recheck. Do you have information about International web users? For the sites I referred to as having less than 0.1% of members with Javascript turned off, the users are largely in Europe - especially Netherlands, Spain and UK. ** The discussion list for http://webstandardsgroup.org/ See http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm for some hints on posting to the list getting help **
Re: [WSG] Today's lesson: Respect - be courteous up or leave
On 09/02/06, russ - maxdesign [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: Russ Miss Manors Why do I get this sudden urge to humm The Commodores (She's a) Brick House? And, and please do something similar for posting ettiquette. Just looking at replies to this post there's two top posts which quote your entire message without any trimming... -- David liorean Andersson uri:http://liorean.web-graphics.com/ ** The discussion list for http://webstandardsgroup.org/ See http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm for some hints on posting to the list getting help **
Re: [WSG] IE7 Compatibility Team
Kenneth Fraser wrote: Greetings, From my experience when I run into an IE bug (double-margin / 3 pixel jog) that could use height: 1% to fix it, I use display: inline as an alternative and it saves a hack in your code or one less reason to use a conditional comment. I haven't noticed any problems with other browsers using this and I test on around 10 of them. Perhaps I haven't seen the particular scenario yet but I think the height: 1% fix can safely be tucked under a rug. height:1% or height:0 or whatever height you set gives layout to an element, which is not the case with display:inline. Making sure an element hasLayout is a big tool in the box when it comes to fix IE bugs. Thierry | www.TJKDesign.com ** The discussion list for http://webstandardsgroup.org/ See http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm for some hints on posting to the list getting help **
Re: [WSG] Today's lesson: Respect - be courteous up or leave
On 10/02/06, liorean [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: And, and please do something similar for posting ettiquette. Just looking at replies to this post there's two top posts which quote your entire message without any trimming... To stay off-topic here, that's the mail app's preference, probably. Gmail and the default Y! mail have top posting, but at least Y! mail can be changed. Oh, asking people to go through a bit more work to reply properly? Right. -Rob.
Re: [WSG] Today's lesson: Respect - be courteous up or leave
liorean wrote: And, and please do something similar for posting ettiquette. Just looking at replies to this post there's two top posts which quote your entire message without any trimming... Yes, I agree completely, though the issue of top posting is big can of worms that often sparks great debate, often on the same scale as the HTML vs XHTML debate. There are, in fact, a number of newsgroups and mailing lists where you're likely to get your head bitten off for failing to follow proper etiquette, but I don't find that very constructive. Unfortunately, top posting (or failing to quote at all) is often the result users of broken e-mail clients (usually Outlook or some web based mail). I find the best approach is to just set a good example, and hope that others eventually get the idea and/or switch mail clients. -- Lachlan Hunt http://lachy.id.au/ ** The discussion list for http://webstandardsgroup.org/ See http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm for some hints on posting to the list getting help **
Re: [WSG] Target sued over non-accessible site
matt andrews wrote: On 10/02/06, Lachlan Hunt [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: Angus at InfoForce Services wrote: Most people have JAVAScript turned off, According to what statistics? I think you'll find most people actually have it turned on. Indeed. I can report from some recent testing on the sites I work on (which have hundreds of thousands of members, and thousands of simultaneous users), that less than 0.1% of users had Javascript turned off. They're dating sites, so they're probably skewed more towards the home/casual user than the office user, but still... I was surprised it was so stark. Amount of Javascript disabled based on various client profiles I've got: My site: Less than 0.1% Commercial music site: Less than 0.5% Commercial / education health care site: Less than 0.7% References available on request. Lawrence -- Lawrence Meckan Absalom Media Mob: (04) 1047 9633 ABN: 49 286 495 792 http://www.absalom.biz ** The discussion list for http://webstandardsgroup.org/ See http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm for some hints on posting to the list getting help **
Re: [WSG] Today's lesson: Respect - be courteous up or leave
On 2/10/06, Rob Mientjes [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: On 10/02/06, liorean [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: And, and please do something similar for posting ettiquette. Just looking at replies to this post there's two top posts which quote your entire message without any trimming... To stay off-topic here, that's the mail app's preference, probably. Gmail and the default Y! mail have top posting, but at least Y! mail can be changed. Maybe, but if I go through the trouble of bottom-posting in Gmail, others should too. Control-x, scroll, control-v. -- -- Christian Montoya christianmontoya.com ... rdpdesign.com ... cssliquid.com ** The discussion list for http://webstandardsgroup.org/ See http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm for some hints on posting to the list getting help **
