Re: [ZWeb] Re: Grrr. zope.org wikis are evil.
Come on Jim - there were people offering to help you. The roadblocks here are wearisome. It's either procedure or someone who can't help stifling things. Lets just make forward progress. We made some today; I am happy. Andrew On 10/9/06 5:18 PM, "Jim Fulton" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote: > Andrew Sawyers wrote: >> On 10/9/06 5:00 PM, "Lennart Regebro" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote: >> >>> On 10/9/06, Andrew Sawyers <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote: INSHO it has been known for quite sometime, but people are still trying to make progress in the only environment we can. >>> We can at this point only make progress by not trying to improve >>> zope.org, but by rebuilding it part by part in a microsite >>> organisation, where each site is separate and can be managed and >>> upgraded separately. >> Someone was seeking a solution, the solution I gave was quick and simple to >> answer the question being asked. Unless I'm volunteering, I won't turn >> people off of trying to do *something*. > > As you well know, there are no quick solutions where the existing > zope.org is concerned. > >>> I truly believe that, and will continue to repreat it like a broken >>> record until everybody agrees an kills me from frustration. :) >> I might be willing to do that :) >> >> >> Seriously though, if all that is desired is a microsite, all we need to do >> is setup a zwiki, point zwiki.zope.org to it. I believe Simon will do that? >> What about existing content? If so, lets just do it. > > Come on. Remember NANZO? It's not something you can "just do". > If you want to "just do" something, Martijn is assembling volunteers. > > Jim ___ Zope-web maillist - Zope-web@zope.org http://mail.zope.org/mailman/listinfo/zope-web
Re: [ZWeb] Re: Grrr. zope.org wikis are evil.
-BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE- Hash: SHA1 On 9 Oct 2006, at 17:10, Jim Fulton wrote: I'll repeat that our commercial cluster is not the right place to host zope.org. We can't really give volunteers the access to do what they need to do. Please explain why? There is no commercial customers on the boxes zope.org services are on, outside of the load balancer and squid, which are not necessary to make progress until things can be moved. Because to do what people want to do, they think they need full sudo. I'm not sure this is necessary. For example, it's possible that it would be enough for many interesting tasks to give people the ability to sudo to the user zope. We could do that. Giving root access to those boxes is not a risk that we're willing to take. It's strange how that never used to be a problem before, and all of a sudden it is. Jim, remember us exchanging emails in 2005 about providing full sudo access for tasks like moving CMF from CVS to Subversion? I still have that whole email exchange. There was no discussion at all about full sudo access being a problem. Matter of fact you were all for people stepping up to solve problems. I would never have signed all those documents that gave me access as a non-employee if I had known every root-access sysadmin task had to be approved by ZC. If you take a look at http://www.zope.org/About there is a specific systems admin group mentioned. That's what I thought I signed up for. I guess I was mistaken. jens -BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE- Version: GnuPG v1.4.1 (Darwin) iD8DBQFFKt4DRAx5nvEhZLIRAmqgAJ9IROaGuDsKBMFzWpGww1HOBmEwuwCgrOPP Komjfs/iyH9MScNMI0jksvg= =EslF -END PGP SIGNATURE- ___ Zope-web maillist - Zope-web@zope.org http://mail.zope.org/mailman/listinfo/zope-web
Re: [ZWeb] Re: Grrr. zope.org wikis are evil.
On 10/9/06, Sidnei da Silva <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote: So, on your plan, how do you get the wikis from the current zope.org to wiki.zope.org? Manually? If it is wiki.zope.org, then yes. :) wiki.zope.org should be another name for zopewiki.org. If we want to update the current developers wiki software but keep the data, another name (devwiki or wiki.dev) should be used. Then the worst case scenario would be some sort of import/export script. -- Lennart Regebro, Nuxeo http://www.nuxeo.com/ CPS Content Management http://www.nuxeo.org/ ___ Zope-web maillist - Zope-web@zope.org http://mail.zope.org/mailman/listinfo/zope-web
Re: [ZWeb] Re: Grrr. zope.org wikis are evil.
Seriously though, if all that is desired is a microsite, all we need to do is setup a zwiki, point zwiki.zope.org to it. I believe Simon will do that? I'd rather have zope.org/zope foundation own this - I don't want to be a bottleneck. But this does sound like a good interim option to try. If there's interest I/we could harvest as many of the zope.org pages/wikis as possible using Michael's list and work out some of the hosting/content/cleanup issues as an independent task. This could be moved to a new zope.org at some point in the future. One problem would be duplicated content getting out of sync, but that need not be a huge problem as there isn't much wiki editing going on right now. ___ Zope-web maillist - Zope-web@zope.org http://mail.zope.org/mailman/listinfo/zope-web
Re: [ZWeb] Re: Grrr. zope.org wikis are evil.
Jim Fulton wrote: That was yesterday: "Because zope.org is a brittle mess and I don't want to take a chance of making in worse. If someone who feels that they have some grasp on that software wants to help me, I'd be willing to try. " Perhaps you took so much offense at the first part of what I said, you didn't notice the second part. Ah. No. I didn't understand - thought you were talking about a grasp on zope.org's setup in general; and I didn't take offense at anything you said. I don't see anything offensive there and I'm sorry if I come across that way myself (but I'd rather risk a little of that than give up). Yes: I want to help you upgrade zwiki. I don't know. Does ZWiki have any tendrils in CMF? As far as I know, nothing that would affect CMF just from doing an upgrade. Zwiki has a (manually invoked) upgradeAll method that adds some fields to the catalog being used by a wiki (and reindexes all pages) for better performance. I don't know which of the zope.org's wikis use a catalog, and whether they share the global catalog or have their own; if shared, this step could alter zope.org's memory usage, so I wouldn't do it right now. Has the version of ZWiki used on zope.org been modified in any way to work with the CMF? I don't know. I believe it's standard Zwiki 0.21.1. One security patch might have been applied from a later release (the no_dtml option) ? No I think it was not. Oh, BTW, zope.org runs some revision of the Zope 2.6 branch. Does the latest ZWiki work with that? No; it needs at least 2.7. You point out a problem I'd forgotten about. The latest Zwiki that works with 2.6 is 0.28 (or 0.34 with a little extra work). That's not a huge improvement on 0.21, perhaps not worth the upgrade effort. So I guess a zope upgrade must come first. Thanks, -Simon ___ Zope-web maillist - Zope-web@zope.org http://mail.zope.org/mailman/listinfo/zope-web
Re: [ZWeb] Re: Grrr. zope.org wikis are evil.
Andrew Sawyers wrote: On 10/9/06 5:00 PM, "Lennart Regebro" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote: On 10/9/06, Andrew Sawyers <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote: INSHO it has been known for quite sometime, but people are still trying to make progress in the only environment we can. We can at this point only make progress by not trying to improve zope.org, but by rebuilding it part by part in a microsite organisation, where each site is separate and can be managed and upgraded separately. Someone was seeking a solution, the solution I gave was quick and simple to answer the question being asked. Unless I'm volunteering, I won't turn people off of trying to do *something*. As you well know, there are no quick solutions where the existing zope.org is concerned. I truly believe that, and will continue to repreat it like a broken record until everybody agrees an kills me from frustration. :) I might be willing to do that :) Seriously though, if all that is desired is a microsite, all we need to do is setup a zwiki, point zwiki.zope.org to it. I believe Simon will do that? What about existing content? If so, lets just do it. Come on. Remember NANZO? It's not something you can "just do". If you want to "just do" something, Martijn is assembling volunteers. Jim -- Jim Fulton mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] Python Powered! CTO (540) 361-1714http://www.python.org Zope Corporation http://www.zope.com http://www.zope.org ___ Zope-web maillist - Zope-web@zope.org http://mail.zope.org/mailman/listinfo/zope-web
Re: [ZWeb] Re: Grrr. zope.org wikis are evil.
Lennart Regebro wrote: On 10/9/06, Andrew Sawyers <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote: INSHO it has been known for quite sometime, but people are still trying to make progress in the only environment we can. We can at this point only make progress by not trying to improve zope.org, but by rebuilding it part by part in a microsite organisation, where each site is separate and can be managed and upgraded separately. That is my feeling too. Jim -- Jim Fulton mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] Python Powered! CTO (540) 361-1714http://www.python.org Zope Corporation http://www.zope.com http://www.zope.org ___ Zope-web maillist - Zope-web@zope.org http://mail.zope.org/mailman/listinfo/zope-web
Re: [ZWeb] Re: Grrr. zope.org wikis are evil.
Andrew Sawyers wrote: On 10/9/06 4:47 PM, "Jim Fulton" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote: I think the best thing to do at this point is to declare the current zope.org implementation a failure and move on. INSHO it has been known for quite sometime, but people are still trying to make progress in the only environment we can. Yes I'll repeat that our commercial cluster is not the right place to host zope.org. We can't really give volunteers the access to do what they need to do. Please explain why? There is no commercial customers on the boxes zope.org services are on, outside of the load balancer and squid, which are not necessary to make progress until things can be moved. Because to do what people want to do, they think they need full sudo. I'm not sure this is necessary. For example, it's possible that it would be enough for many interesting tasks to give people the ability to sudo to the user zope. We could do that. Giving root access to those boxes is not a risk that we're willing to take. What's it going to take to move stuff? If someone anti's up a server, can we move things immediately so this isn't an issue? Yes, and we may have a volunteer. We're talking to someone now. It will, of course, take more than a server. The existing app servers could probably replaced with a single modern server, although we probably want two for redundancy. There's a storage server, and an ldap server. There are squid caches and load balancers. Of course, we don't have to reproduce exactly the same infrastructure. Then there's network bandwidth, system administration, etc.. Jim -- Jim Fulton mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] Python Powered! CTO (540) 361-1714http://www.python.org Zope Corporation http://www.zope.com http://www.zope.org ___ Zope-web maillist - Zope-web@zope.org http://mail.zope.org/mailman/listinfo/zope-web
Re: [ZWeb] Re: Grrr. zope.org wikis are evil.
Jim Fulton wrote:
Oh, BTW, zope.org runs some revision of the Zope 2.6 branch.
Does the latest ZWiki work with that?
Michael Haubenwallner,
Do you have any opinion on this? Should we try doing a ZWiki
upgrade?
The pages are all open for download.
To anyone wanting to try an upgrade, start with Zope3-dev wiki:
- get a list of pagenames:
http://dev.zope.org/Zope3/FrontPage/pageNames
- download the source of each page:
http://dev.zope.org/Zope3/{PageName}/src
- feed it into you own copy of zwiki, experiment.
Michael
--
http://zope.org/Members/d2m
http://planetzope.org
___
Zope-web maillist - Zope-web@zope.org
http://mail.zope.org/mailman/listinfo/zope-web
Re: [ZWeb] Re: Grrr. zope.org wikis are evil.
On 10/9/06 5:00 PM, "Lennart Regebro" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote: > On 10/9/06, Andrew Sawyers <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote: >> INSHO it has been known for quite sometime, but people are still trying to >> make progress in the only environment we can. > > We can at this point only make progress by not trying to improve > zope.org, but by rebuilding it part by part in a microsite > organisation, where each site is separate and can be managed and > upgraded separately. Someone was seeking a solution, the solution I gave was quick and simple to answer the question being asked. Unless I'm volunteering, I won't turn people off of trying to do *something*. > > I truly believe that, and will continue to repreat it like a broken > record until everybody agrees an kills me from frustration. :) I might be willing to do that :) Seriously though, if all that is desired is a microsite, all we need to do is setup a zwiki, point zwiki.zope.org to it. I believe Simon will do that? What about existing content? If so, lets just do it. Andrew ___ Zope-web maillist - Zope-web@zope.org http://mail.zope.org/mailman/listinfo/zope-web
Re: [ZWeb] Re: Grrr. zope.org wikis are evil.
On Mon, Oct 09, 2006 at 11:00:19PM +0200, Lennart Regebro wrote: | We can at this point only make progress by not trying to improve | zope.org, but by rebuilding it part by part in a microsite | organisation, where each site is separate and can be managed and | upgraded separately. | | I truly believe that, and will continue to repreat it like a broken | record until everybody agrees an kills me from frustration. :) So, on your plan, how do you get the wikis from the current zope.org to wiki.zope.org? Manually? -- Sidnei da Silva Enfold Systemshttp://enfoldsystems.com Fax +1 832 201 8856 Office +1 713 942 2377 Ext 214 ___ Zope-web maillist - Zope-web@zope.org http://mail.zope.org/mailman/listinfo/zope-web
[ZWeb] Re: apache on zope.org
Ok, so far I've got the following setup for managing our apache on cvs.zope.org A new user account: static We will run the static files from /home/static/public_html/site-name I'm awaiting a symlink from /home/static/etc/httpd.conf /etc/httpd/conf.d/static.conf The static user can edit and define necessary configuration in ~/etc/httpd.conf and it will be included in the main httpd.conf The static user is also awaiting the ability to: sudo apachectl Questions? Comments? Andrew On 10/9/06 10:44 AM, "Martijn Faassen" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote: > Chris Withers wrote: >> Hi Martijn, >> >> Martijn Faassen wrote: >>> Justin is making no progress getting the formalities arranged with ZC >>> to actually get access to the zope.org servers. >> >> OK, I've forwarded this mail to Rob, we'll see what his response is. >> What has Justin tried so far? > > He got stuck in the bureaucracy of actually faxing a signed agreement. > He doesn't seem to have access to a fax. :) > >>> My goal is still to be able to host simple Apache web pages on that >>> system. Later on we can look towards other solutions and other >>> servers, but right now that's the goal. >> >> To that end, I've CC'ed in Andrew Sawyers who is likely to have better >> access than me to the cvs.zope.org box which at least has a running >> Apache instance ;-) > > I see Andrew replied and is taking action, that's great! > >>> Could you contact Rob Page for the agreement needed to get access to >>> the ZC server, >> >> There are lots of servers... > > Understood. I don't want the details myself, I just want people I can > delegate tasks towards. :) > >>> and then (hopefully agreeing to the agreement), sign it, fax it to >>> them, and obtain access so you can manage their Apache for me? >> >> Sure, I guess we'll wait and see what his reply says. It'd be good to >> know what you and Justin have tried so far though... > > Not much. Justin seems to have the DNS situation well in hand, but I > think it looks like Andrew is my man for Apache config issues. Great! > > Regards, > > Martijn ___ Zope-web maillist - Zope-web@zope.org http://mail.zope.org/mailman/listinfo/zope-web
Re: [ZWeb] Re: Grrr. zope.org wikis are evil.
On 10/9/06, Andrew Sawyers <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote: INSHO it has been known for quite sometime, but people are still trying to make progress in the only environment we can. We can at this point only make progress by not trying to improve zope.org, but by rebuilding it part by part in a microsite organisation, where each site is separate and can be managed and upgraded separately. I truly believe that, and will continue to repreat it like a broken record until everybody agrees an kills me from frustration. :) -- Lennart Regebro, Nuxeo http://www.nuxeo.com/ CPS Content Management http://www.nuxeo.org/ ___ Zope-web maillist - Zope-web@zope.org http://mail.zope.org/mailman/listinfo/zope-web
Re: [ZWeb] Re: Grrr. zope.org wikis are evil.
| Because no one knows what would break. Because the installed software | has unknown versions. Because we don't have a repeatable installation. Even if you knew the version, what would guarantee that nothing would break without trying? The changelog? Good luck with that. Someone needs to step in and try and see what breaks. I could be that person. I could get it to the point where you have a Zope 2.9 instance with no 'Broken because product is gone' and no broken imports. And with a stock CMF skin. Someone would have to take it from there. Would that be a reasonable offer? -- Sidnei da Silva Enfold Systemshttp://enfoldsystems.com Fax +1 832 201 8856 Office +1 713 942 2377 Ext 214 ___ Zope-web maillist - Zope-web@zope.org http://mail.zope.org/mailman/listinfo/zope-web
Re: [ZWeb] Re: Grrr. zope.org wikis are evil.
On 10/9/06 4:47 PM, "Jim Fulton" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote: > > I think the best thing to do at this point is to declare the current > zope.org implementation a failure and move on. INSHO it has been known for quite sometime, but people are still trying to make progress in the only environment we can. > > I'll repeat that our commercial cluster is not the right place to host > zope.org. We can't really give volunteers the access to do what they need to > do. Please explain why? There is no commercial customers on the boxes zope.org services are on, outside of the load balancer and squid, which are not necessary to make progress until things can be moved. > > Jim What's it going to take to move stuff? If someone anti's up a server, can we move things immediately so this isn't an issue? Andrew ___ Zope-web maillist - Zope-web@zope.org http://mail.zope.org/mailman/listinfo/zope-web
Re: [ZWeb] Re: Grrr. zope.org wikis are evil.
| >b) you don't mind | >staying up to 4am for several days. | | I do mind. Uh, saturdays? -- Sidnei da Silva Enfold Systemshttp://enfoldsystems.com Fax +1 832 201 8856 Office +1 713 942 2377 Ext 214 ___ Zope-web maillist - Zope-web@zope.org http://mail.zope.org/mailman/listinfo/zope-web
Re: [ZWeb] Re: Grrr. zope.org wikis are evil.
Justizin wrote: > Again, continuing with my naive thought experiments focussed on this one > issue, a zwiki upgrade, I would be thinking: (a) upgrading zwiki is not > going to break other parts of the site, and it's certainly not going to > require me to debug CMF; and (b) if I'm wrong, I've learned something, I > replace the old zwiki version and consider next steps. I don't know. Does ZWiki have any tendrils in CMF? Has the version of ZWiki used on zope.org been modified in any way to work with the CMF? I don't know. Very good questions. We can always start with a diff -urN of the live zwiki version vs. the latest release, and/or the zwiki version it reports itself as being. I volunteer. :) It reports itself as being ZWiki head. :( Oh, BTW, zope.org runs some revision of the Zope 2.6 branch. Does the latest ZWiki work with that? Yesh and why don't we look into moving to a modern version of Zope? Because no one knows what would break. Because the installed software has unknown versions. Because we don't have a repeatable installation. > A good first step would be to build a checklist of what's holding us back. I think the best thing to do at this point is to declare the current zope.org implementation a failure and move on. I'll repeat that our commercial cluster is not the right place to host zope.org. We can't really give volunteers the access to do what they need to do. Jim -- Jim Fulton mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] Python Powered! CTO (540) 361-1714http://www.python.org Zope Corporation http://www.zope.com http://www.zope.org ___ Zope-web maillist - Zope-web@zope.org http://mail.zope.org/mailman/listinfo/zope-web
Re: [ZWeb] Re: Grrr. zope.org wikis are evil.
On 10/9/06, Sidnei da Silva <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote: On Mon, Oct 09, 2006 at 03:44:31PM -0400, Jim Fulton wrote: | I don't know. | Does ZWiki have any tendrils in CMF? Not that I know of. | Has the version | of ZWiki used on zope.org been modified in any way to work with the | CMF? Not that I know of. | Oh, BTW, zope.org runs some revision of the Zope 2.6 branch. | Does the latest ZWiki work with that? That's more likely to cause trouble. Again, the most likely useful way to do this is to make microsites. wiki.zope.org, in this case. Sure, I'm volounteering, but not until february. ;) -- Lennart Regebro, Nuxeo http://www.nuxeo.com/ CPS Content Management http://www.nuxeo.org/ ___ Zope-web maillist - Zope-web@zope.org http://mail.zope.org/mailman/listinfo/zope-web
Re: [ZWeb] Re: Grrr. zope.org wikis are evil.
Sidnei da Silva wrote: On Mon, Oct 09, 2006 at 02:49:48PM -0400, Jim Fulton wrote: | It's not a question of debugging some isolated problem. It's | a question of making a change to a large system that has been fraught | with problems. A system that most people who work on zope.org | don't want to touch. A system that was abandoned by it's original | author. I can help if a) there's no papers to sign and Not if I do the work. b) you don't mind staying up to 4am for several days. I do mind. | Having said that, I said that I would be willing to work with someone | familiar with the zope.org software yo update ZWiki. No one has stepped | forward yet. I wonder why. To the best of my knowledge several people have volunteer to help. They were mostly turned off because of issues with signing agreements. If you can think of a way to allow people to help with a low barrier of contribution then I'm sure someone will help. That's why we want to move zope.org out of our cluster. This is something that the Foundation is working on. Jim -- Jim Fulton mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] Python Powered! CTO (540) 361-1714http://www.python.org Zope Corporation http://www.zope.com http://www.zope.org ___ Zope-web maillist - Zope-web@zope.org http://mail.zope.org/mailman/listinfo/zope-web
Re: [ZWeb] Re: Grrr. zope.org wikis are evil.
How much disk space is available on the production boxes? We could copy and setup instances based on existing install changing necessary config and simply testing the product update - that would be the quickest route IMNSHO. Looks like there's enough room on the storage serverI just can't get to the app servers it appears. Andrew On 10/9/06 4:08 PM, "Justizin" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote: >>> Again, continuing with my naive thought experiments focussed on this one >>> issue, a zwiki upgrade, I would be thinking: (a) upgrading zwiki is not >>> going to break other parts of the site, and it's certainly not going to >>> require me to debug CMF; and (b) if I'm wrong, I've learned something, I >>> replace the old zwiki version and consider next steps. >> >> >> >> I don't know. Does ZWiki have any tendrils in CMF? Has the version >> of ZWiki used on zope.org been modified in any way to work with the >> CMF? I don't know. > > Very good questions. We can always start with a diff -urN of the live > zwiki version vs. the latest release, and/or the zwiki version it > reports itself as being. I volunteer. :) > >> Oh, BTW, zope.org runs some revision of the Zope 2.6 branch. >> Does the latest ZWiki work with that? > > Yesh and why don't we look into moving to a modern version of Zope? A > good first step would be to build a checklist of what's holding us > back. ___ Zope-web maillist - Zope-web@zope.org http://mail.zope.org/mailman/listinfo/zope-web
Re: [ZWeb] Re: Grrr. zope.org wikis are evil.
> Again, continuing with my naive thought experiments focussed on this one > issue, a zwiki upgrade, I would be thinking: (a) upgrading zwiki is not > going to break other parts of the site, and it's certainly not going to > require me to debug CMF; and (b) if I'm wrong, I've learned something, I > replace the old zwiki version and consider next steps. I don't know. Does ZWiki have any tendrils in CMF? Has the version of ZWiki used on zope.org been modified in any way to work with the CMF? I don't know. Very good questions. We can always start with a diff -urN of the live zwiki version vs. the latest release, and/or the zwiki version it reports itself as being. I volunteer. :) Oh, BTW, zope.org runs some revision of the Zope 2.6 branch. Does the latest ZWiki work with that? Yesh and why don't we look into moving to a modern version of Zope? A good first step would be to build a checklist of what's holding us back. -- Justizin, Independent Interactivity Architect ACM SIGGRAPH SysMgr, Reporter http://www.siggraph.org/ ___ Zope-web maillist - Zope-web@zope.org http://mail.zope.org/mailman/listinfo/zope-web
Re: [ZWeb] Re: Grrr. zope.org wikis are evil.
| With enough effort we could create some kind of staging environment | for zope.org. I know that I couldn't commit the time necessary. Is there a person that can commit the time necessary? -- Sidnei da Silva Enfold Systemshttp://enfoldsystems.com Fax +1 832 201 8856 Office +1 713 942 2377 Ext 214 ___ Zope-web maillist - Zope-web@zope.org http://mail.zope.org/mailman/listinfo/zope-web
Re: [ZWeb] Re: Grrr. zope.org wikis are evil.
On Mon, Oct 09, 2006 at 02:49:48PM -0400, Jim Fulton wrote: | It's not a question of debugging some isolated problem. It's | a question of making a change to a large system that has been fraught | with problems. A system that most people who work on zope.org | don't want to touch. A system that was abandoned by it's original | author. I can help if a) there's no papers to sign and b) you don't mind staying up to 4am for several days. | Having said that, I said that I would be willing to work with someone | familiar with the zope.org software yo update ZWiki. No one has stepped | forward yet. I wonder why. To the best of my knowledge several people have volunteer to help. They were mostly turned off because of issues with signing agreements. If you can think of a way to allow people to help with a low barrier of contribution then I'm sure someone will help. -- Sidnei da Silva Enfold Systemshttp://enfoldsystems.com Fax +1 832 201 8856 Office +1 713 942 2377 Ext 214 ___ Zope-web maillist - Zope-web@zope.org http://mail.zope.org/mailman/listinfo/zope-web
Re: [ZWeb] Re: Grrr. zope.org wikis are evil.
Justizin wrote: On 10/9/06, Jim Fulton <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote: Sidnei da Silva wrote: > On Mon, Oct 09, 2006 at 02:00:24PM -0400, Jim Fulton wrote: > | I don't have any mystic power that allows me to understand any Zope > | application. I am also not a CMF developer. > > That's something I never understood. > > It's not only a problem with Jim, but people that can understand the > most obscure issues about memory management or deep C-level hackery, > or insane operating system level APIs or and Linux kernel issues, > sometimes with 5-10 years of Python experience, just state that they > don't have enough knowledge to debug a random application. > > C'mon. There's not any magic going on there. The hardest issues you > will face are Acquisition and Page Templates. Sometimes you have to > just do it. Several times I've found myself in this situation. There's > nothing that can't be understood by stepping through pdb all the way > from BaseRequest to the guts of an application. > > I know it's tedious, and that it might take several tries until you > realize what's exactly going on. But it is doable. There's a > difference between 'I can't do it' and 'I don't want to do it'. Being > in the latter group is fine, but I would say it's highly questionable > for an experienced developer to put himself in the first group without > a reasonable excuse. It's not a question of debugging some isolated problem. It's a question of making a change to a large system that has been fraught with problems. A system that most people who work on zope.org don't want to touch. A system that was abandoned by it's original author. Having said that, I said that I would be willing to work with someone familiar with the zope.org software yo update ZWiki. No one has stepped forward yet. I wonder why. Is there a reason you can't just see what happens when you bring up a copy of zope.org with the latest ZWiki? Do you have any idea how to bring up a copy of zope.org? Do you know what I would need to copy? If it didn't work, would it be because I did something wrong in the copy? This is probably a large amount of work. Is there a list of issues? With what? > I face this problem somewhat as well, though I can be blamed for most of siggraph.org, some of it is legacy and it has taken me up to a year to get some products out of the mix which were around before I started. Sorry, I don't have a year to spend on zope.org. Usually when new versions of upstream code come out, I bring them up in dev.siggraph.org, poke at anything flaky I can think of, and ask people to try it out for a month or so. Any time something is broken until we get this working, it's a sad state of affairs IMO, but it's better than being dead in the water. With enough effort we could create some kind of staging environment for zope.org. I know that I couldn't commit the time necessary. Jim -- Jim Fulton mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] Python Powered! CTO (540) 361-1714http://www.python.org Zope Corporation http://www.zope.com http://www.zope.org ___ Zope-web maillist - Zope-web@zope.org http://mail.zope.org/mailman/listinfo/zope-web
Re: [ZWeb] Re: Grrr. zope.org wikis are evil.
On Mon, Oct 09, 2006 at 03:44:31PM -0400, Jim Fulton wrote: | I don't know. | Does ZWiki have any tendrils in CMF? Not that I know of. | Has the version | of ZWiki used on zope.org been modified in any way to work with the | CMF? Not that I know of. | Oh, BTW, zope.org runs some revision of the Zope 2.6 branch. | Does the latest ZWiki work with that? That's more likely to cause trouble. -- Sidnei da Silva Enfold Systemshttp://enfoldsystems.com Fax +1 832 201 8856 Office +1 713 942 2377 Ext 214 ___ Zope-web maillist - Zope-web@zope.org http://mail.zope.org/mailman/listinfo/zope-web
Re: [ZWeb] Re: Grrr. zope.org wikis are evil.
Simon Michael wrote: Jim Fulton wrote: Having said that, I said that I would be willing to work with someone familiar with the zope.org software yo update ZWiki. No one has stepped forward yet. I wonder why. Er.. I'd guess because: that was less than an hour ago; I heard you talk about apache work, Yes. not a zwiki upgrade; That was yesterday: "Because zope.org is a brittle mess and I don't want to take a chance of making in worse. If someone who feels that they have some grasp on that software wants to help me, I'd be willing to try. " Perhaps you took so much offense at the first part of what I said, you didn't notice the second part. very few people on the planet are familiar with the zope.org software. Perhaps that's the point you are making ? Yes. Again, continuing with my naive thought experiments focussed on this one issue, a zwiki upgrade, I would be thinking: (a) upgrading zwiki is not going to break other parts of the site, and it's certainly not going to require me to debug CMF; and (b) if I'm wrong, I've learned something, I replace the old zwiki version and consider next steps. I don't know. Does ZWiki have any tendrils in CMF? Has the version of ZWiki used on zope.org been modified in any way to work with the CMF? I don't know. Oh, BTW, zope.org runs some revision of the Zope 2.6 branch. Does the latest ZWiki work with that? Michael Haubenwallner, Do you have any opinion on this? Should we try doing a ZWiki upgrade? Jim -- Jim Fulton mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] Python Powered! CTO (540) 361-1714http://www.python.org Zope Corporation http://www.zope.com http://www.zope.org ___ Zope-web maillist - Zope-web@zope.org http://mail.zope.org/mailman/listinfo/zope-web
Re: [ZWeb] Re: Grrr. zope.org wikis are evil.
On 10/9/06, Jim Fulton <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote: Sidnei da Silva wrote: > On Mon, Oct 09, 2006 at 02:00:24PM -0400, Jim Fulton wrote: > | I don't have any mystic power that allows me to understand any Zope > | application. I am also not a CMF developer. > > That's something I never understood. > > It's not only a problem with Jim, but people that can understand the > most obscure issues about memory management or deep C-level hackery, > or insane operating system level APIs or and Linux kernel issues, > sometimes with 5-10 years of Python experience, just state that they > don't have enough knowledge to debug a random application. > > C'mon. There's not any magic going on there. The hardest issues you > will face are Acquisition and Page Templates. Sometimes you have to > just do it. Several times I've found myself in this situation. There's > nothing that can't be understood by stepping through pdb all the way > from BaseRequest to the guts of an application. > > I know it's tedious, and that it might take several tries until you > realize what's exactly going on. But it is doable. There's a > difference between 'I can't do it' and 'I don't want to do it'. Being > in the latter group is fine, but I would say it's highly questionable > for an experienced developer to put himself in the first group without > a reasonable excuse. It's not a question of debugging some isolated problem. It's a question of making a change to a large system that has been fraught with problems. A system that most people who work on zope.org don't want to touch. A system that was abandoned by it's original author. Having said that, I said that I would be willing to work with someone familiar with the zope.org software yo update ZWiki. No one has stepped forward yet. I wonder why. Is there a reason you can't just see what happens when you bring up a copy of zope.org with the latest ZWiki? Is there a list of issues? I face this problem somewhat as well, though I can be blamed for most of siggraph.org, some of it is legacy and it has taken me up to a year to get some products out of the mix which were around before I started. Usually when new versions of upstream code come out, I bring them up in dev.siggraph.org, poke at anything flaky I can think of, and ask people to try it out for a month or so. Any time something is broken until we get this working, it's a sad state of affairs IMO, but it's better than being dead in the water. -- Justizin, Independent Interactivity Architect ACM SIGGRAPH SysMgr, Reporter http://www.siggraph.org/ ___ Zope-web maillist - Zope-web@zope.org http://mail.zope.org/mailman/listinfo/zope-web
Re: [ZWeb] Re: Grrr. zope.org wikis are evil.
Jim Fulton wrote: Having said that, I said that I would be willing to work with someone familiar with the zope.org software yo update ZWiki. No one has stepped forward yet. I wonder why. Er.. I'd guess because: that was less than an hour ago; I heard you talk about apache work, not a zwiki upgrade; very few people on the planet are familiar with the zope.org software. Perhaps that's the point you are making ? Again, continuing with my naive thought experiments focussed on this one issue, a zwiki upgrade, I would be thinking: (a) upgrading zwiki is not going to break other parts of the site, and it's certainly not going to require me to debug CMF; and (b) if I'm wrong, I've learned something, I replace the old zwiki version and consider next steps. ___ Zope-web maillist - Zope-web@zope.org http://mail.zope.org/mailman/listinfo/zope-web
Re: [ZWeb] Re: Grrr. zope.org wikis are evil.
Sidnei da Silva wrote: On Mon, Oct 09, 2006 at 02:00:24PM -0400, Jim Fulton wrote: | I don't have any mystic power that allows me to understand any Zope | application. I am also not a CMF developer. That's something I never understood. It's not only a problem with Jim, but people that can understand the most obscure issues about memory management or deep C-level hackery, or insane operating system level APIs or and Linux kernel issues, sometimes with 5-10 years of Python experience, just state that they don't have enough knowledge to debug a random application. C'mon. There's not any magic going on there. The hardest issues you will face are Acquisition and Page Templates. Sometimes you have to just do it. Several times I've found myself in this situation. There's nothing that can't be understood by stepping through pdb all the way from BaseRequest to the guts of an application. I know it's tedious, and that it might take several tries until you realize what's exactly going on. But it is doable. There's a difference between 'I can't do it' and 'I don't want to do it'. Being in the latter group is fine, but I would say it's highly questionable for an experienced developer to put himself in the first group without a reasonable excuse. It's not a question of debugging some isolated problem. It's a question of making a change to a large system that has been fraught with problems. A system that most people who work on zope.org don't want to touch. A system that was abandoned by it's original author. Having said that, I said that I would be willing to work with someone familiar with the zope.org software yo update ZWiki. No one has stepped forward yet. I wonder why. Jim -- Jim Fulton mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] Python Powered! CTO (540) 361-1714http://www.python.org Zope Corporation http://www.zope.com http://www.zope.org ___ Zope-web maillist - Zope-web@zope.org http://mail.zope.org/mailman/listinfo/zope-web
Re: [ZWeb] Re: Grrr. zope.org wikis are evil.
On Mon, Oct 09, 2006 at 02:00:24PM -0400, Jim Fulton wrote: | I don't have any mystic power that allows me to understand any Zope | application. I am also not a CMF developer. That's something I never understood. It's not only a problem with Jim, but people that can understand the most obscure issues about memory management or deep C-level hackery, or insane operating system level APIs or and Linux kernel issues, sometimes with 5-10 years of Python experience, just state that they don't have enough knowledge to debug a random application. C'mon. There's not any magic going on there. The hardest issues you will face are Acquisition and Page Templates. Sometimes you have to just do it. Several times I've found myself in this situation. There's nothing that can't be understood by stepping through pdb all the way from BaseRequest to the guts of an application. I know it's tedious, and that it might take several tries until you realize what's exactly going on. But it is doable. There's a difference between 'I can't do it' and 'I don't want to do it'. Being in the latter group is fine, but I would say it's highly questionable for an experienced developer to put himself in the first group without a reasonable excuse. Sorry for the rant. I don't want to be pointing fingers. I'm just tired of hearing the same excuses over and over everytime someone mentions touching the software behind zope.org. -- Sidnei da Silva Enfold Systemshttp://enfoldsystems.com Fax +1 832 201 8856 Office +1 713 942 2377 Ext 214 ___ Zope-web maillist - Zope-web@zope.org http://mail.zope.org/mailman/listinfo/zope-web
Re: [ZWeb] Re: Grrr. zope.org wikis are evil.
Simon Michael wrote: Hi Martijn, thanks for your response. I'm replying on-list - Martijn Faassen wrote: Jim's answer about brittle mess on the mailing list makes it clear. It makes his thinking clear, yes. I'm not clear on why he thinks that way. I would think: a zope.org that's so fragile it can't be touched by Jim Fulton is intolerable, and if upgrading a product risks breaking some of it, so be it; the bits that broke were in the way. I don't have any mystic power that allows me to understand any Zope application. I am also not a CMF developer. ... What you need to do in order to get Apache access is contact Rob Page ([EMAIL PROTECTED]) (I've cc-ed him) and get and sign the agreement with ZC that you won't break their hosting environment. That's not enough to change the apache config. If you want to make a change to the apache config, I'll make it for you. I'll be happy to work with someone on irc at an agreed upon time. ... - I understand why the paperwork exists, but I think it represents some bureaucracy that is near the root of the problem with zope.org. I agree. I feel to engage with it only repeats the cycle of private email, delay, loss of momentum, and prolongs the bigger problem. Give a volunteer a login, and (s)he'll get to work.. Again, I agree. This is necessary because zope.org is hosted in the same cluster with our commercial customers and we have to be extremely conservative. This is why zope.org needs to move to a new home. Jim -- Jim Fulton mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] Python Powered! CTO (540) 361-1714http://www.python.org Zope Corporation http://www.zope.com http://www.zope.org ___ Zope-web maillist - Zope-web@zope.org http://mail.zope.org/mailman/listinfo/zope-web
[ZWeb] Re: Grrr. zope.org wikis are evil.
Hi Martijn, thanks for your response. I'm replying on-list - Martijn Faassen wrote: Jim's answer about brittle mess on the mailing list makes it clear. It makes his thinking clear, yes. I'm not clear on why he thinks that way. I would think: a zope.org that's so fragile it can't be touched by Jim Fulton is intolerable, and if upgrading a product risks breaking some of it, so be it; the bits that broke were in the way. Big deal, bring them back later; or not. But that's just my perspective; I won't get to make this decision. :) What you need to do in order to get Apache access is contact Rob Page ([EMAIL PROTECTED]) (I've cc-ed him) and get and sign the agreement with ZC that you won't break their hosting environment. Also: subscribe to zope-web@zope.org if you haven't already. I'm here of course, but via gmane so you won't see me in the subscriber list. Once we actually have responsive community members to fulfill technical tasks, we can make progress. If you'd be willing to take on some Apache config work on the current infrastructure I'd be very grateful! Regarding this and the above - thanks for the guidance. I have these responses - - I am carefully volunteering for very specific, well-defined tasks I know I understand and can keep motivated to work on; right now that is a zwiki upgrade. (Or, at least understanding the conditions under which it could happen.) - Also I think you have good people already looking into apache (Jens, Andrew, Justizin). - I've seen this twisty passage before. I'm pretty sure I signed an agreement for website work a few years back. It didn't give me permission to really fix things then and I don't think it would now. - I understand why the paperwork exists, but I think it represents some bureaucracy that is near the root of the problem with zope.org. I feel to engage with it only repeats the cycle of private email, delay, loss of momentum, and prolongs the bigger problem. Give a volunteer a login, and (s)he'll get to work.. - If Rob will (re)post the url of the official current version of the appropriate agreement, I will read it with a fresh mind and reconsider. I do want to help in some way. ___ Zope-web maillist - Zope-web@zope.org http://mail.zope.org/mailman/listinfo/zope-web
Re: [ZWeb] making planet.zope.org be planet.zope.org
I'm talking to Rob right now in IM - and he's checking into it, as I'm trying to assist with the Apache setup to get the foundation site up. Andrew On 10/9/06 11:58 AM, "Jens Vagelpohl" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote: > -BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE- > Hash: SHA1 > > > On 9 Oct 2006, at 09:59, Martijn Faassen wrote: >> (note that I still don't seem to have any volunteers who *actually* >> have access to the zope.org apache. This means signing a special ZC >> agreement that's not the contributor's agreement for entering their >> hosting environment. All this is temporary as we continue to look >> for ways to move gradually off that brittle setup) > > It's more complicated then that. I exchanged a few emails with Jim > this morning regarding an unrelated sysadmin issue on cvs.zope.org > and apparently the policy has changed: Even signing the agreements > (which I did back in 2004) don't get you the level of access required > to make changes as root (like would be needed for Apache) anymore. > Only he or probably other ZC personnel can now perform root-level > access tasks. > > jens > > -BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE- > Version: GnuPG v1.4.1 (Darwin) > > iD8DBQFFKnGkRAx5nvEhZLIRAiSVAJ4v6csi+YQMwSQUvOmq4pEhOqP0/wCfeCl2 > +EKze6SXIjQ8LES4IbkCYT8= > =e+70 > -END PGP SIGNATURE- > ___ > Zope-web maillist - Zope-web@zope.org > http://mail.zope.org/mailman/listinfo/zope-web ___ Zope-web maillist - Zope-web@zope.org http://mail.zope.org/mailman/listinfo/zope-web
Re: [ZWeb] making planet.zope.org be planet.zope.org
-BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE- Hash: SHA1 On 9 Oct 2006, at 09:59, Martijn Faassen wrote: (note that I still don't seem to have any volunteers who *actually* have access to the zope.org apache. This means signing a special ZC agreement that's not the contributor's agreement for entering their hosting environment. All this is temporary as we continue to look for ways to move gradually off that brittle setup) It's more complicated then that. I exchanged a few emails with Jim this morning regarding an unrelated sysadmin issue on cvs.zope.org and apparently the policy has changed: Even signing the agreements (which I did back in 2004) don't get you the level of access required to make changes as root (like would be needed for Apache) anymore. Only he or probably other ZC personnel can now perform root-level access tasks. jens -BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE- Version: GnuPG v1.4.1 (Darwin) iD8DBQFFKnGkRAx5nvEhZLIRAiSVAJ4v6csi+YQMwSQUvOmq4pEhOqP0/wCfeCl2 +EKze6SXIjQ8LES4IbkCYT8= =e+70 -END PGP SIGNATURE- ___ Zope-web maillist - Zope-web@zope.org http://mail.zope.org/mailman/listinfo/zope-web
Re: [ZWeb] making planet.zope.org be planet.zope.org
On 10/9/06, Martijn Faassen <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote: Hi there, I believe with our recent DNS adjustments we *might* be able to make planet.zope.org in fact *be* planet.zope.org, and not just a redirect to www.zope.org/Planet. Keep in mind the DNS will not stabilize until at least end of week. This reminds me to nag Rob to update the zope.org registrar today. What steps would need to be taken to make this possible? By itself not an interesting task, but it's a good test case if we want to expose other things like, say, wiki.zope.org or trac.zope.org in the future. So, we want to expose http://www.zope.org/Planet as http://planet.zope.org/ ? We can always proxy a rewrite to the existing page, but this will make the navigation a little bit awkward. It's a start, I suppose. BTW, what code is behind the Zope Planet? It looks like it is running in the zope.org site, not as something external like PlanetPlanet. (note that I still don't seem to have any volunteers who *actually* have access to the zope.org apache. This means signing a special ZC agreement that's not the contributor's agreement for entering their hosting environment. All this is temporary as we continue to look for ways to move gradually off that brittle setup) Yeah I'll get with rob on this agreement as well.. Best! Justin -- Justizin, Independent Interactivity Architect ACM SIGGRAPH SysMgr, Reporter http://www.siggraph.org/ ___ Zope-web maillist - Zope-web@zope.org http://mail.zope.org/mailman/listinfo/zope-web
[ZWeb] making planet.zope.org be planet.zope.org
Hi there, I believe with our recent DNS adjustments we *might* be able to make planet.zope.org in fact *be* planet.zope.org, and not just a redirect to www.zope.org/Planet. What steps would need to be taken to make this possible? By itself not an interesting task, but it's a good test case if we want to expose other things like, say, wiki.zope.org or trac.zope.org in the future. (note that I still don't seem to have any volunteers who *actually* have access to the zope.org apache. This means signing a special ZC agreement that's not the contributor's agreement for entering their hosting environment. All this is temporary as we continue to look for ways to move gradually off that brittle setup) Regards, Martijn ___ Zope-web maillist - Zope-web@zope.org http://mail.zope.org/mailman/listinfo/zope-web
