-1 from me for the simple reason that you failed (as far as I can tell) to
get the PRC to approve your volunteering of that committee for the new
oversight arrangement.
We cannot just volunteer other PMCs; they have to agree. And we cannot
declare a matter closed when the newly responsible
+1 Great idea.
--- Noel
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jean-frederic clere wrote:
Henri Yandell wrote:
Raises the question of whether anyone has needed the
improvements/bugfixes/whatever in the later GPL versions, and whether
we should consider forking the old version.
As [(http://commons.apache.org/daemon/ has] most of the features in ASF,
Ted Husted wrote:
Perhaps it's time [we] encourage development of a Roller zone where
our PMC's can post easy-to-aggregate announcement blogs. These
would not be individual blogs as we have on PlanetApache.org, but PMC
blogs that would focus solely on project news.
+1 I made this suggestion
Ted Husted wrote:
[EMAIL PROTECTED] and [EMAIL PROTECTED] email drops
-1 because the last thing we need are press and security e-mails getting
dropped on the floor. If the PRC and Security teams, who actually care
about the topic, can't get PMCs involved, what makes you think that leaving
it
Matthias Wessendorf wrote:
If so, any plans already ?
Working on it.
ok...
I won't have a working cell in the EU, but we can probably use the wiki and
e-mail to do some coordinating.
Also, WC matches 51 and 52 will be played at 1700 and 2100 that day.
+1 on WC :-)
Germany will win its
I'd like to mail an informal email to [EMAIL PROTECTED] that all PMC member
know about that award
Is this appropriate for all PMCs? What makes you believe that they'd care?
--- Noel
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Turbine people @ tigris.org. Turbine-3 never saw an official release
and is considered dead by the main Turbine developers. This is important
to know, because for that reason, this tree was never brought forward to
Subversion.
I'm pretty sure that this is not the only part of the CVS
tree
Mark Thomas wrote:
Noel J. Bergman wrote:
what thickness of skin should be required of participants on our lists?
Thick enough to take to criticism, whether it be right or wrong, and
to respond in a positive manner.
Personal attacks of any form or degree are not acceptable behaviour
Jean T. Anderson wrote:
derby-user@db.apache.org has been grappling with someone who delights in
belittling other posters on the list.
The topic was raised on women@ (see the thread starting with
http://mail-archives.apache.org/mod_mbox/www-women/200511.mbox/%3c4371355F.9
[EMAIL PROTECTED]
Jean,
The name at the core is Michael Segel.
Ah, then people can go to mail-archives.apache.org/mod_mbox/db-derby-user
and view sorted by author. Better still would be to know which ones are
being considered offensive.
I reviewed a dozen or so of his posts, and I saw a few snarky comments,
Roy T. Fielding wrote:
The answer is to ask your community not to feed the troll when it
gets grumpy and just ignore him
When his presence is worse than his absence, you can deny him, but
it is better to ask everyone in the community to simply shun him.
Perhaps our netiquette FAQ should
Just a reminder, since many people have expressed interest in jobs working
on open source projects, that has a [EMAIL PROTECTED] list to which
prospective employers and/or their representatives can and do post
inquiries.
The list has been relatively low traffic, but we are starting to see a
There has been quite a bit of discussion around the ASF, not always on open
lists, to the effect that sometimes people are turned off or scared off from
participation, whether in a discussion, project or the ASF as a whole.
The purpose for this message is to start a thread discussion the matter.
There is Greg's SubWiki but I'm not sure how far/alive it is
Nothing that a development community couldn't fix ... ;-)
--- Noel
smime.p7s
Description: S/MIME cryptographic signature
Shane Curcuru wrote:
I'd love to find a wiki that also supports updates via some
sort of geek-oriented interface, like CVS or SVN.
SubWiki should be able to do it. Talk with Greg.
--- Noel
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Please do NOT send this further:
http://www.snopes.com/inboxer/children/hannes.asp
The boy was reunited with his family weeks ago.
--- Noel
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Folks,
As those of you who use bugzilla (already migrated) are probably aware, we
are in the process of moving various things from nagoya. I just finished
bringing up JIRA. There are two mappings:
http://issues.apache.org/jira -- the current live instance on nagoya
consensus by attrition is a negatively loaded term, yet a natural
occurring thing in all projects
Not when the attrition is caused by unhealthy friction and stress within the
community, and an active (and stated) goal to remove those who didn't share
a particular vision.
--- Noel
Stephen McConnell wrote:
William A. Rowe, Jr. wrote:
Stephen McConnell wrote:
* What do you think is the role of a PMC in our decision
making process?
They have absolute decision making process within the board's
mandate for their project.
According to Greg Stein this should
Stephen McConnell wrote:
If I remember correctly you coined the phrase, and now you are promoting
this left right and center presumably as your rationalization of past
events. Cut to chase - publish all of this - not just the selected
extracts.
Actually, I was just checking some of the
Stephen McConnell wrote:
Clearly you are not prepared to face up to the fact that the there is a
disconnect within the ASF policies and procedures and the functioning of
an open community.
Rather, you are not willing to see that despite the ASF's utopian ideals, we
recognize in our legal
The active committer community objected to the transfer of
dead code from cvs to svn, arguing that the Avalon svn
should contain the active alive code.
And that would have been wrong. SVN is our successor to CVS, and we are to
PRESERVE *ALL* history of our code, which is an asset.
In my
Niclas Hedhman wrote:
Noel J. Bergman wrote:
http://dictionary.reference.com/search?q=attrition.
Why didn't you list the meanings given by your link
Because people can read.
1. and 2. is probably what people are referring to
Yes.
Some highly successful projects in ASF, has started
Niclas Hedhman wrote:
I give you an example of what I call 'compromise' and 'collaboration' ;
Those events as you describe them did happen. If they were the only ones,
we'd have a happy healthy community.
Each individual works on what he/she finds interesting, relevant
and important.
Stephen McConnell wrote:
Maybe this about making Apache a better place by identifying hypocrisy
here out in the open instead of behind the protection of private lists.
yawn The facts don't bear witness to the claim.
Maybe it's about dealing with the breach of procedure by the Chair of a
Stephen McConnell wrote:
When you say and the two container factions that chose not to
participate with everyone else you are implying and active
choice? Do you believe that the Avalon community was
presented with a choice?
Yes to both. And multiple of each over extended periods of time.
Stephen McConnell wrote:
* What do you think is the role of a PMC in our decision
making process?
The PMC makes all binding decisions regarding a project. If the PMC fails
in that regard to the satisfaction of the Foundation's stakeholders, the
Board can, and will be expected to, take
Niclas,
J Aarron said it so well, I really have little to add, but I'll respond to a
couple of your comments directed to me.
Niclas Hedhman wrote:
Noel J. Bergman wrote:
proceeded to engineer consensus by attrition,
I am sick and tired of hearing this about Steve
Many people lay
Stephen McConnell wrote:
The Avalon community established a PMC to represent the community
interests concerning the direction and administration of the Avalon
project. The community interests were clear - a single platform, one
specification, a cohesive solution. That decision was not
Linux violates more than 228 patents, according to a recent report
from a research group, Microsoft Chief Executive Steve Ballmer
said at the company's Asian Government Leaders Forum in
Singapore. Someday, for all countries that are entering the WTO,
somebody will come and look for money
William A. Rowe, Jr. wrote:
The only result (if proved true) is the complete loss of faith
in any form of electronic voting by the general public for at
least the next 20 years.
You're kidding, right? Is there anyone here who has faith in unauditable
systems? Electronic voting, at least as
Serge Knystautas wrote:
Noel J. Bergman wrote:
Electronic voting, at least as practiced here in the USA,
is a farce, and a disaster either waiting to happen, or
already happening.
I'm wondering who (whether in Apache or elsewhere) will build
the first open source electronic voting
William A. Rowe, Jr. wrote:
Let's make certain you read me right. I said General Public.
right now, in general, they trust the 'machine' more than people.
Once confidence is destroyed, no manner of encryption/transaction
tracking/electronic audit will satisfy them.
And this is a bad
Sun is the final stages of collecting requirements for the releases that
will follow Tiger, which means the next 3 years. So here's your chance to
tell Sun what you would like to see in J2SE versions 6 and 7. Once we
gather all of the ideas, we can try to see if we can prioritize the list.
I
Noel J. Bergman wrote:
I have created a wiki page to collect the information.
It would have helped if I remembered to paste the link ...
http://wiki.apache.org/general/JavaFutures
--- Noel
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We've discussed this on infrastructure before. Someone (probably Leo) will
need to be ready to do a final conversion of the data, and then we can
redirect the wiki from nagoya to wiki.apache.org/old.
Anyone with apsite karma can create a new wiki in the farm, so it is
relatively easy for
David Crossley wrote:
on what list can all committers discuss issues
without fear of spilling the beans about something
that is not yet decided by ASF?
None that I know of. There is no private discussion list for committers,
unlike [EMAIL PROTECTED]
--- Noel
Rodent of Unusual Size wrote:
*i* think it would be good to include something about
[committer resources such as lists] in the 'here's your
committer account' message from the infrastructure.
Sent by a script. Patches welcomed.
maybe a bi-monthly reminder to committers@ pointing to a
page
Where are the sources for the mail script and dev/ files?
Should I send patches to the infrastructure issue tracker?
dev/ is in the site module, which should be available for anonymous
checkout. It is also visible via viewcvs.
The script is in the infrastructure area of SVN, and I don't
Niclas Hedhman wrote:
Rodent of Unusual Size wrote:
*stephen* wasn't on the distribution list, and yet you
checked with him.
Actually, if we're talking about Message-ID:
[EMAIL PROTECTED], Stephen was on the distribution list.
I have refrained from attacking people in this list, but
there
Sander Temme wrote:
You can't just do that without the committer's consent.
I consciously avoid putting the coordinates of my house
in the ICBM.
Same here. IIRC, I put in the approximate geographic center of the
municipality.
--- Noel
smime.p7s
Description: S/MIME cryptographic
now that you mentioned the PRC is a recent effort, I
don't feel that bad for initially sending the issue
to the wrong place :-).
:-)
Nor should you. You're trying to do a good thing.
--- Noel
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Do we have an ApacheCon US 2004 logo to put on our sites, yet?
--- Noel
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Ian Holsman wrote:
Noel J. Bergman wrote:
I am talking purely about the technical issue of people being
unable to download the software from mirrors.playboy.com. I
am not talking about the logo/link to playboyenterprises.com.
Would a mirrors.playboyenterprises.com domain be less technically
If you are 'stuck' running the infrastructure, why don't you
let others help you?
The Infrastructure Team has put out requests for help for over a year on
things that would really help. There have been a number of people added
over the past year, who work on specific areas, such as JIRA, the
Apart from the fact that you have put much more energy in talking
against this than creating the list (hint hint ;-) ...
I don't think you have any idea how much goes into creating a new list. I
just did a quick count. There are 16+ commands to execute on 3 ASF servers,
plus a file in CVS
Nicola Ken Barozzi wrote:
I don't think you have any idea how much goes into creating a new list.
I just did a quick count. There are 16+ commands to execute on 3 ASF
servers, plus a file in CVS that needs to be edited, committed, and
updated on minotaur. Per list. And a dev or user
Do it yourself scales, and I would think that any ASF member should be
able to create a list, given evident consensus. We did the same for the
Incubator files, remember?
Uh, no. That's the argument here: lists require the appropriate oversight
structure.
I believe he was referring to
Done. Public list, private archives.
--- Noel
-Original Message-
From: Brian Behlendorf [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]
Sent: Sunday, July 18, 2004 14:31
To: Noel J. Bergman
Cc: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Subject: RE: Jobs List again (fwd)
Open subscription. I'd say private archives
the list was made the moment it was needed. It
*could* be created the moment it was needed.
It would be nice if we had such a mechanism. At the moment, list creation
is a long list of steps that involves 3 servers, each with different access
rights.
I suspect that if 3 ASF'ers want to
Tetsuya Kitahata wrote:
Could you (someone who *can* access to Hermes.Apache.Org -- CLOSED
server in OPEN SOURCE community -- or minotaur.apache)
Yes, we should telnet instead of ssh. And publish that pesky root password.
That would open up the source.
please change that 552 error message
Sanjiva Weerawarana wrote:
Couple of the folks working on implementing WS-SecureConversation
are interested in joining that TC (if and when it appears in
OASIS ..).
Gianugo Rabellino wrote:
If we manage to sort out the infrastructure/logistics and all the
other points Dirk correctly raised,
We've been approached by OASIS to see if it makes sense to join them.
This is a call out to Community to see if that makes sense.
There are a number of obstacles when working with OASIS (or the w3c for
that matter) compared to working with some of the other/normal standards
bodies such as
The question is related to hold the history in the old CVS repo and
migrate just the lastest sources to SVN vs. a full migrationg to SVN
Ah, now I understand your point. Migrate it all, AFAIAC.
--- Noel
-
To
many projects inside the ASF are migrating from CVS to Subversion
One of the main question while doing that is that we need to decide
[is] should the history being moved to SVN or not?
Is there a question? IMO, the answer is categorically that it is important
to preserve the entire IP history
A little obfuscation goes a long way. Look at our subscription mechanism
to
mailing lists. It is trivially easy to defeat, but as far as I know no
one
has yet subscribed to one of our lists to spam us.
Actually, that part is not so easy because it requires them to have a
valid mailbox in order
I rarely bother to sign my messages
I notice you signed that one. ;-)
On purpose. :-)
Signed messages cause problems on gmane
The problem is that gmane obfuscates the sender itself,
so that the sender and signer don't match, and you get
a Security Warning
It is an entirely proper
The next step would be to only allow mail from people who are in the
ASF web-of-trust. :-)
Thereby eliminating 99% of the user base? ;-)
--- Noel
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because of spam via address harvesting and spoofing.
Or just plain dictionary attacks. As an experiment, create a hotmail
address, and never use. See how long it is before it gets spam.
I keep a tail -f monitor on the logs for my mail server. It just scrolls by
in a corner of the screen, but
Personally, I am in favor of blocking all DHCP pools at the
interface, and not allowing direct connections.
Hmmm..might be problematic when you're on the move and have to
use whatever system/connection is available.
When traveling, you should either use SMTP AUTH, SSH tunneling, or find
Sounds like a *contest* to me! :-) Can anyone (besides Stefano, who's
in a class by himself :-) beat my 1,540 references
I found 2 unique references for my @apache.org address. I was hoping for
none, since I never use it. One is because I simply hadn't noticed that
someone had used that
Personally, I am in favor of blocking all DHCP pools at the interface
I for one, will no longer be able to participate if the Apache email
server decides to block DHCP pools.
That's why we haven't done it. :-) Not for you specifically, but
generally.
I am curious. Doesn't your ISP provide
I think we really need good anti-spam tool rather than hidding
our identities.
I just hope soon the spam problem will find a final solution.
The death penalty for convicted spammers would be a start. :-) Or a 1
dollar fine and 1 minute of jail time per spammed recipient.
On the technology
Do we have any mechanism for hiding or otherwise obfuscating
the email address of senders to our list?
No. The raw mbox archives show everything, as do the eyebrowse archives.
So why not obfuscate? Even if we were to do so, any spammer could subscribe
to our lists, and simply harvest sender
By obfuscation I obviously mean a transformation which is easy for a
human to decipher but difficult for a machine.
I understood.
Based upon testimony from Ron Scelson, I believe that the spam industry has
grown to about US$1 billion per year. How much effort do you think is being
invested if
I'm not sure about the quality and status of ikvm (java to c# assembly
compiler), but some people (I think it was Miguel in Malaga) reported
to me informally it was able to run tomcat. Any clue?
None. But I have known the author for years. Very talented guy, and knows
the bytecode level of
What about starting by making sure Apache java projects _do_ work with
the 2 open source JVMs that are mentioned in the article ?
Which two? I've had a thought to try testing James under gcj at some point.
RedHat has already done a whole bunch of Java-based Apache projects with
gcj.
If you read the open letters there is clear they suggest an full GPL
license, because if not maybe it can end (intentionally) in a fork.
There is nothing in the GPL that talks about a fork. The argument for Sun
to license their JVM under the GPL is that then Sun would be the only one
who could
A proposed Free Software Act provides an alternative to addressing
software licensing through the copyright process.
http://www.linuxworld.com/story/44100.htm?DE=1
Just kind of an interesting read. Especially if you are Roy, and understand
all of the big words. ;-)
--- Noel
Roy T. Fielding wrote:
A proposed Free Software Act provides an alternative to addressing
software licensing through the copyright process.
http://www.linuxworld.com/story/44100.htm?DE=1
Just kind of an interesting read. Especially if you are Roy, and
understand all of the big words.
what's the checklist of TODOs to handle before dumping CVS?
I'm in favor of migration, but have all of the client tools caught up? Have
the Eclipse plug-ins caught up with current Eclipse?
FWIW, there are projects already using it, including:
- James jSieve
- Depot
- Directory
-
See: http://www.internetnews.com/dev-news/article.php/3312091
Patent:
http://patft.uspto.gov/netacgi/nph-Parser?Sect1=PTO2Sect2=HITOFFu=/netahtm
l/search-adv.htmr=9p=1f=Gl=50d=ptxtS1=Microsoft.ASNM.OS=AN/Microsoft
RS=AN/Microsoft
Does anyone have any idea how this would effect Ant, Maven,
I figured Martin could/should be included in the foundation pages
When the news goes away from the main homepage, I'll move the
link text to [...]
I think that there is already a suitable place for the link. Martin was a
Member. He did not add himself to
Doesn't prior art invalidate such patents?
Systems, methods and data structures for encompassing scripts written
in one or more scripting languages in a single file does not sound
*that* innovative here ;-)
Nothing about it sounds innovative. In terms of prior art, what about
Andrew C. Oliver wrote:
All legal matters are for the Board and the Foundation's attorneys to
address.
Regarding audits ...
There is a presumption of innocence in our legal system. I do not believe
that due diligence requires an a priori presumption of fraud, and a
investigation to prove its
Folks,
We have completed installation of Jira for the ASF use. Questions regarding
that can be discussed on [EMAIL PROTECTED] Requests would be directed to
infrastructure by a PMC. I do, however, want to make one important request.
If/when you sign into Jira, BE SURE to use the same e-mail
Andrew C. Oliver wrote:
Unrelated to whether or not we would use it, I think that blojsom could
be a
very nice ASF project. From what I have seen of it, I'd support its
entry
to the Incubator.
Does it seem sensible to take an already successful ASL licensed,
community developed piece of
Ted Leung wrote:
If we had some kind of record (like a FOAF file) that we stick krell,
and planet* and whatever data in, that would be good. We're starting
to have data all over the place. members.txt, urls.txt, and probably
more that I'm not remembering. Be nice to have an authoritative
It is possible that he'd be willing to [bring blojsom] to the incubator.
It already has a very active community. Its probably bordering on
becoming a standard just because Roller tends to take Blojsom's code.
Unrelated to whether or not we would use it, I think that blojsom could be a
very
Tetsuya,
Ceremony. I suspect it that even such a nice community has to
be baptized once. (one day or less)
Legitimatization, in order to keep *consistency* in a big
and social community. To make it orthodox.
No, Incubation has nothing to do with pomp and circumstance.
--- Noel
Many other open source projects, including Debian, the Linux Kernel
developers, and Mono, are aggregating the RSS feeds of their blogging
contributors and putting them up on a web site. This is something
that would be good for the ASF to do as well
We have so far voted to not create an ASF
Brian Behlendorf wrote:
Noel J. Bergman wrote:
We have so far voted to not create an ASF blog because we do not want
the
perception of the ASF approving the content of the blogs.
I missed out on that vote, but FWIW, I have no problem with an aggregator,
or even a hosted blogger for ASF
Ok, I'm quite happy to register and host planetapache.org; whether or
not we want to point it at minotaur is more or less irrelevant I think,
but I'm open to argument either way.
:-)
Personally, a useful application of this technology would be to provide
projects with a means to publish news
Ted Leung wrote:
Um, there's lots of standard technology for blogs.
I did not volunteer to be a guinea pig for another
let's (re)invent a CMS project.
We can switch over when something is working, but I want
to have something that works today.
Well, of course. The second paragraph was
There has been a slight delay in the roll-out. On Monday, ASF Jira
installation was updated to the latest Jira code from Atlassian. That code
includes the necessary changes for selectively importing Bugzilla projects,
so that each project that wants to migrate from Bugzilla to Jira can do so.
James Mitchell asked:
From their online demo:
http://jira.atlassian.com/secure/IssueNavigator.jspa?reset=truepid=10450pr
iorityIds=4resolutionIds=-1
System Error
A system error has occurred.
[...]
java.lang.OutOfMemoryError
[...]
Total Memory: 346 MB
Free Memory: 2 MB
Used Memory: 344
Do people want the newsletter to continue? If so then I'm happy
to edit the Oct/Nov issue with no promises to tackle subsequent
issues - aiming to publish in a week or so.
+1 and much thanks.
As much as voting with +1s would be appreciated, voting with content would
be better
Tetsuya
Yes, minotaur (www, cvs, etc.) is unavailable. We know about it, and
everything that can be done to get to back online promptly is being done.
This message is being sent rather than have lots of individual e-mails
asking about it. :-)
--- Noel
I think the moment is coming where we should think about using those
interesting GPG keys for something more than just signing releases.
S/MIME certificates are acquired, e.g., from Thawte, just as you would an
SSL certificate. There are root Certificate Authorities, just as for HTTPS.
Any
http://www.red-bean.com/fitz/acpoker.jpg
Very cute. :-)
--- Noel
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OK, here's one with *the* feather :)
http://www.cocooncenter.org/apache/apachecon2.png
My question is whether we want to use the indian motif at all.
--- Noel
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OK, here's one with *the* feather :)
http://www.cocooncenter.org/apache/apachecon2.png
My question is whether we want to use the indian motif at all.
And my answer would be no. I think it would be better to stay away from
that kind of theme.
Agreed. Consider my question leading.
Just another question - would you mind considering a
Las Vegas-related motive?
My only comment was that we want to avoid American Indian motifs. Fitz's
LV-related image is pretty clever, I think, but I'm sure there are a lot of
good ideas.
--- Noel
At least, projects@incubator.apache.org and
jaxme-dev@ws.apache.org have wrong configurations.
Please fix and notify it of the participants of
these mailing lists after that.
The owners of those lists (the Incubator and WS PMCs respectively) can
request a change to [EMAIL PROTECTED] An
when I subscribed to some mailing lists, I got stunned
at seeing the fact that some mailing lists accepted
spam mails.
Some lists were setup wrong. AFAIK, none of the lists should accept mail
from non-subscribers without moderation.
I thought that this was tightly
Tetsuya Kitahata wrote:
* Mailing Team (Board Committee)
* Internationalization Team (Board Committee)
are what I needed and wanted.
(*NOT* [EMAIL PROTECTED]: for i18n)
There is a mailing team. apmail is part of infrastructure.
As for internationalization, I don't see why it should not be
On the other way, I wonder how Tetsuya gives the job too easily.
There was no strong criticism. Simply the request that instead of the
entire newsletter, an announcement be posted. Other than that, the
newsletter (and Tetsuya's handling of it) have received praise and strong
support.
In my opinion the key idea of the ASF is to push the idea of the different
communities behind a project.
Pushing the idea of a guru (IMVHO) is exactly the opposite of pushing
the
idea of a community.
How does making it plural work for you? IOW, The Gurus Are In. That is
somewhere between
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