Re: Free Runner price vs iphone 3G price

[Robert Taylor]

ian douglas wrote:
> Robert Taylor wrote:
>  > I'm not dropping this. You still have it wrong.
>
> Hi Robert,
>
> I'm not trying to win the overall argument, I just want you to 
> acknowledge that my position is as valid as your own, as I do for your 
> position in point #2 below.
>
>   
Ian, I acknowledge that your point is valid.

My apologies to you and everyone for making more of a stink out of this 
than necessary.

I get it, we can't win playing their game. 

According to someones post a while back, it will be at least a year  
before any of the hoops can be jumped through before the moko will start 
to be considered as part of some sort of subsidized package deal.

Although there is wiggle room, it seems that if we can't make the device 
stand out and we get locked into feature vs feature war that it is a 
loosing strategy.   The iphone deal is a pretty horrible deal, as is the 
blackberry device.  I can't understand how anyone buys things like 
that.  However RIM and Apple have managed to do a great job at 
differentiating their brand in the market place and getting their 
message out.

I wonder if we have anything that unique to offer.  Can the open world 
come up with an identity?  Or is our identity no identity?


Rob

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Re: Free Runner price vs iphone 3G price

[Sander Hoentjen]

On Tue, 2008-06-10 at 18:08 -0700, ian douglas wrote:
> Robert Taylor wrote:
> 
> > If you want to compare the total cost, compare the total cost of buying 
> > the new iphone UNLOCKED at retail cost (you can't) plus the data package 
> > and THEN we can talk.
> 
> But the consumer isn't asked to pay the full unlocked price of the 
> iPhone. Just because AT&T subsidizes the phone by lessening the profit 
> they make on the $100/month you'll pay them for using their service, the 
> consumer isn't paying "more" for the phone since they'd still have to 
> pay for the same voice/data service to use a Freerunner. It just means 
> AT&T makes more profit on the voice/data plan because they haven't 
> subsidized anything.
> 
> And you still haven't followed up with how you calculated the iPhone to 
> cost 'twice' as much as the Freerunner.
> 
I took the following approach (I am in The Netherlands):
compare the price difference for a 24month contract with or without an
iPhone (16GB) (Yes this is not the new one, but i suspect it will not
differ too much).

Price for 24 mo with iPhone: 719,- eur
with HTC Touch Diamond (just for comparison): 541,-
without phone: 163,10 eur




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SIM cards for Freerunner (was Free Runner price vs iphone 3G price)

[ian douglas]

Joe Pfeiffer wrote:
> when I went to get a sim card to use in my moko, I was
> unable to find one without getting a subsidized phone to go with it.

TMobile did this for me in about 15 minutes at one of their stores, and 
I didn't even have my Neo with me at the time. I simply told them I had 
an unlocked international GSM-capable phone and I just needed a SIM card 
for it.

I'm sure AT&T would do the same if you simply walk into the store and 
tell them you want to purchase a SIM card for an unlocked phone you 
already own, and that you just want the SIM card.

-id

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Re: QVGA V/s VGA for GTA03 (was something about yummy CPU-GPU combos!)

[W.Kenworthy]

Is there an 'official' designation of the target market for the GTA03?

i.e., freerunner is geeks/early adopters


BillK



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Re: Free Runner price vs iphone 3G price

[Joe Pfeiffer]

Robert Taylor writes:
>
>If the moko was subsidized out of pocket expense would be less because 
>the moko would be cheaper.

Well, yes, but when I went to get a sim card to use in my moko, I was
unable to find one without getting a subsidized phone to go with it.

So the economics (as I faced them) were subsidized phone vs. s. p. + moko.

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Re: Free Runner price vs iphone 3G price

[ian douglas]

Robert Taylor wrote:
 > I'm not dropping this. You still have it wrong.

Hi Robert,

I'm not trying to win the overall argument, I just want you to 
acknowledge that my position is as valid as your own, as I do for your 
position in point #2 below.


Here's my thinking, please feel free to agree or disagree and explain why.


#1: Based on Steve's recent Emails talking about production time lines, 
I'd wager that the Freerunner will hit the market within a week or two 
of the 3G iPhone. There have been discussions over and over about how 
the Freerunner is not going to be marketed as an iPhone "killer", but 
the fact it'll be released around the same time may create that sort of 
thinking again, which as Robert states in another Email, we'll have to 
clarify for the "f___ing noobs".


#2: A quote from your last Email:
 > If the moko was subsidized out of pocket expense would be less because
 > the moko would be cheaper. It's that simple.
Yes, I agree with you on this, it's that simple, you're absolutely 
correct, and the out-of-pocket expense would be higher to own an iPhone. 
"*IF* the moko was subsidized" -- to use your own words.
So *yes* if were having this discussion next summer when someone 
theorized (was it you yourself) that the Freerunner or some other GTA 
device might be subsidized by a major carrier, then I absolutely 
whole-heartedly agree that getting a Freerunner would be cheaper, in 
terms of up-front cost alone, than buying an iPhone.


#3: Come July 11th, 2008 when the iPhone is released, you *have* to 
agree with me on this: the Freerunner is NOT going to be subsidized by 
any carrier. It will cost you $399 (or $369 in a group sale) to purchase 
a Freerunner from OpenMoko, plus tax/shipping, period. And it will cost 
you $199 for the cheaper iPhone at a store you have to drive to, period.


#4: Jorge's original message had nothing to do with subsidies, it was 
solely based on a face-value perspective of "When the iPhone is released 
in July 2008, how much money comes out of my pocket to buy a Freerunner 
versus iPhone, plus a data/voice plan?", and nothing else. His point was 
that the out-of-pocket cost, in July 2008, would be higher for a 
Freerunner by $200, which is absolutely correct.


#5: Taking #2, #3 and #4 into consideration: if you buy an iPhone or a 
Freerunner in July 2008, over the course of the next 24 months (to 
compare apples to apples of a 2-yr contract versus 2 years of 
non-contract service), you'll spend approximately the same total dollar 
value no matter which phone you purchase.
iPhone: $199 + ($100 x 24mo) = ~$2600
Freerunner: $399 + ($90 x 24mo) = ~$2600


So maybe I'm not going to convince you either (per your comment in the 
other "things clear" message thread) that my perspective is as valid as 
your own. I'm simply trying to get you to acknowledge that when the 
Freerunner is sold in the summer of 2008, around the same time the 
iPhone is being sold, there is *no* subsidy on the Freerunner, therefore 
Jorge's initial question/concern is correct: the iPhone is cheaper to 
purchase up front. My follow-up though was that after two years of 
owning each phone, the total amount of money paid will be approximately 
equal.


And Robert, I'm still curious how you determined that in this same 
scenario (buying the phones in July 2008 with no subsidy on the 
Freerunner) that the overall dollar total you spend would be double if 
you choose the iPhone. Third request: please elaborate. :o)

-id

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Re: interface for people with very poor eyesight?

[Arthur Marsh]

Gilles Casse wrote, on 11/06/08 08:52:
> Hello,
> 
> You could possibly get feedback from the gnome accessibility mailing 
> list, they already expressed interest for accessible smartphones:
> http://mail.gnome.org/archives/gnome-accessibility-list/
> 
> I am interested by the neo as a device which could be potentially used 
> eyes-free.
> 
> Best regards,
> Gilles

If GTA02/3 can have a software package that meets or exceeds "Mobile 
Accessibility" (a closed source 3rd party expensive add on package 
locked to a particular handset from http://www.codefactory.es/), then 
many legally or completely blind people might start considering the FIC 
handsets.

Arthur.


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Re: Free Runner price vs iphone 3G price - Things clear

[Robert Taylor]

Robert Taylor wrote:
> Carsten Haitzler (The Rasterman) wrote:
>   
>> 
> Precisely.  And if you want to quit your contract you will pay A FEE 
> that will make your phone far more expensive than $600.
>
> I wish people would stop saying nonsense.
>
> It really doesn't matter if you unlock the phone or not, the person that 
> bought it will end up paying the full retail price of it no matter what, 
> quitting contract or not quitting contract.
>
> To sign the contract is to agree to finance the retail cost of the v.2.0.
>
> You will not be seeing 2.0 versions on ebay for $199 that are legit.  
> Those that aren't legit are either stolen, knockoffs or refurbished, in 
> which case who gives a damn, they are stolen, knockoffs or refurbished 
> and not in competition.
>
> The math simply doesn't add up fellas.
>
>   
Bah!  Ignore this please ... I hit reply to the wrong thread!!!

My bad, appologies.

Rob

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Re: Free Runner price vs iphone 3G price - Things clear

[Robert Taylor]

Carsten Haitzler (The Rasterman) wrote:
> now it changes with the 3g iphone. you must sign up when you buy. sure - you
> can now take that phone, unlock it, re-sell it, but you are stuck with a
> contract you must keep paying for... with no phone to use on that contract
> unless you buy another phone - outright. there will be contract termination
> clauses if you want to cancel then and this will help cover the subsidy - of
> not completely cover it and then some...
>   
Well I guess this thread is probably dead, lots of good points made.  
I'll stop here as I don't think I can provide anything usefull on the 
price comparison.  Carsten I agree with your point.

I think its safe to say that if our technically saavy and intelligent 
users cannot tell the difference between a retail and subsidized phone 
its a given joe six pack won't spend the time to research it any 
further.  My hope is that we can all parrot the same message so when 
shit hits the fans and fucking noobs start flooding in here we can have 
toe a single line and explain to them the difference one noob at a time 
- just like the ubuntu folks are doing on irc quite well.

I think I've failed in convincing any people here so that one is lost.

So let's see if we can salvage some of the back and forth and see if we 
can get some brainstorming going ... here is a brainstorm I had in 
another thread about what we can do to differentiate the moko.  It's 
clear if we (well frankly there is no we, its fic and their team, but 
i'll pretend there is a we to encourage a free platform) get too close 
to trying to compete on iphones terms or redmonds terms we will lose.

How about if we try to change the playing field a bit, one release at a 
time.  Here is one way I thought we can do it ... please feel free to 
comment or tear it appart:

Yes.  I propose a modular approach.  1 phone many external similar to
> this idea: http://www.icontrolpad.com/
>
> Additionally, there is a certain cool factor to having a single unit but
> many docking stations if done right, for example:
>
> Quick preview:  http://www.linuxdevices.com/news/NS3871478989.html
>
> Their overbearing website:  http://www.buglabs.net/products
>
> Buglabs is doing something really cool, but you gotta code in java and
> it doesn't fit into a pocket (well it does fit in a really big pocket).
>
> It's pretty clear Mokos core group of users are very demanding, and
> something like that would allow for everyone to be happy.
>
> However, why I really think this could be a really great approach for
> the moko is the 'Hey Cool!' factor.
>
> Can you picture the conversation when you meet up with  a buddy "hey
> whats that on your moko? oh it's my new gamepod.  COL!  can i try it
> on my moko?  sure  ... *CLICK*  ... here you go.   COOL!"
>
> It also reduces the dev costs for moko, it allows it to remain a
> smartphone and not move from that niche, reduces the number of formats
> that people will be demanding the moko be made in and will start to
> establish a hardware addon ecosystem beyond what is already being developed.
>
> What the moko manufacturers then can pull is a NIKE.  Instead of relying
> purely on sales of the moko, they can turn them selves into an R&D and
> marketing company and not only produce their own hardware if they want
> to, but also licence officially supported modules and addons to control
> quality and get a cut of each sale.
>
> Also when usb3 comes along you can offload all sorts of stuff to that,
> such as gfx co-porcessing if you want so all of a sudden you can get ati
> into the picture with their completely documented processors and really
> start something interesting.
>
>
> Just some brianstorming ...
>
> Rob
>

We haveto OUT THINK them, NOT OUTCOMPETE them.  The first one allows us 
to define the playing field, the second one leaves us catching up with 
the Joneses (note: this is what iSteve has done to quite a remarkable 
success - dell is left shoveling small margins while apple rakes in the 
cash on the high end).  What are your thoughts?

Rob



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iphone - link to a cost analysis by Yahoo Tech....

[Jim Colton]

http://tech.yahoo.com/blogs/null/94465
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Re: Free Runner price vs iphone 3G price

[rakshat hooja]

>
>
> >
> No, it won't make the Moko more expensive.
>
> You pay through the nose for it because you HAVETO sign up for a 2 year
> contract minimum.
>
> The iPhone is AT LEAST twice as expensive as the Moko.
>
> In other words, if the Moko came with a 2 year contract it would
> basically be free.
>
> Please actually compare apples to apples.
>
> - Rob
>
> I don't know where my NDA stands on this. (I dont have the signed copy back
yet and I guess i wont be posting any more on this once I get it:-) I
discussed with a carrier in India and they were as the first offer willing
to offer unlimitid data on GPRS/Edge and free incomming for *one year* for
about $70 (more than half their normal rate) if their connection is sold
with the Freerunner.

So a more logical comparison (if you have to compare prices) would be
*Freerunner
at $539 with two year unlimited data connection with the cost of the
I-phone+2 years unlimited data only connection* (I am not aware of the
prices as the I-phone plan pricing has not been announced in my country)

Rakshat
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Re: Free Runner price vs iphone 3G price - Things clear

[Robert Taylor]

Carsten Haitzler (The Rasterman) wrote:
>
> not so simple. i think he business plan is changing because before this
> happened with the 1st iphone. people could buy without contract. it was 
> assumed
> that the phone lock would force people to get a contract anyway and apple bore
> the risk by losing out on their cut of the carrier's revenue (at&t). so they
> sold it at $399 or $499 etc. and din't get any money from at&t after that.
>
> now it changes with the 3g iphone. you must sign up when you buy. sure - you
> can now take that phone, unlock it, re-sell it, but you are stuck with a
> contract you must keep paying for... with no phone to use on that contract
> unless you buy another phone - outright. there will be contract termination
> clauses if you want to cancel then and this will help cover the subsidy - of
> not completely cover it and then some.
>
> sure - some (a very few) phones will somehow be smuggled from the factory or
> from shipments before they get to an apple or at&t or other carrier store, and
> some may be sold "under the counter" without contract - but i guarantee that
> that likely is a business losing proposition for anyone as they get a rebate
> once they sign you on a contract. selling without a contract will mean hey 
> have
> to jack up the price to cover the lost rebate money.
>
> as such - legal, legitimate and easy to get 3g iphones WITHOUT contract are
> going to be much more than $199.
>
>   
Precisely.  And if you want to quit your contract you will pay A FEE 
that will make your phone far more expensive than $600.

I wish people would stop saying nonsense.

It really doesn't matter if you unlock the phone or not, the person that 
bought it will end up paying the full retail price of it no matter what, 
quitting contract or not quitting contract.

To sign the contract is to agree to finance the retail cost of the v.2.0.

You will not be seeing 2.0 versions on ebay for $199 that are legit.  
Those that aren't legit are either stolen, knockoffs or refurbished, in 
which case who gives a damn, they are stolen, knockoffs or refurbished 
and not in competition.

The math simply doesn't add up fellas.


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Re: Free Runner price vs iphone 3G price

[Robert Taylor]

ian douglas wrote:
> Robert Taylor wrote:
>   
>> Just compare equal things. 
>> 
>
> We'll have to agree to disagree on the definition of "equal".
>
> Hear me out:
>   
Hi! 

:-)  I really do mean well but I'm not dropping this.

You still have it wrong.

If the moko was subsidized out of pocket expense would be less because 
the moko would be cheaper.

It's that simple.

Stop trying to skew the numbers please.

Rob

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RE: Free Runner price vs iphone 3G price

[Jorge .]

> ian douglas wrote:
> 
> By my calculations below, a consumer buying an iPhone or a Freerunner, 
> and using AT&T for a voice/data plan, is going to spend about $2600 over 
> two years no matter which phone they buy.
> 
> Jorge's original posting in this thread said the following:
> > the new iPhone 3G price was announced, and the 8 Gigas version will
> > cost only $199 USD and  now the FreeRunner is less competitive than 
> the iPhone in terms of price.
> 
> He was asking about straight out-of-pocket expense, not about subsidies. 
> The end consumer is only going to see the price tag on the phone itself.


EXACTLY!! a GNU/Linux geek will see the difference, but GTA02 is for mass 
production, and i am afraid the price will discourage buyers for the same 
reasons your are telling


> The consumer will look at the iPhone and see a price of $199.
> Then they'll look at the Freerunner and see a price tag of $399.

EXACTLY AGAIN!

 
> The Freerunner would perhaps be cheaper if the consumer buys "pay as you 
> go" minutes/data instead of a monthly plan.


Excepting if you can buy an unlocked iPhone for less than $399 USD, because in 
most countries you can buy pay as you go minutes for any phone.


> The Freerunner would *definitely* be cheaper if they buy the iPhone and 
> start buying applications through iTunes for their phone.


Of course, iTunes aplications are horribly expensive and non-free!!


>> If you want to compare the total cost, compare the total cost of buying 
>> the new iphone UNLOCKED at retail cost (you can't) plus the data package 
>> and THEN we can talk.
> 
> But the consumer isn't asked to pay the full unlocked price of the 
> iPhone. Just because AT&T subsidizes the phone by lessening the profit 
> they make on the $100/month you'll pay them for using their service,

Also true



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Re: Free Runner price vs iphone 3G price - Things clear

[The Rasterman]

On Wed, 11 Jun 2008 00:16:40 + "Jorge ." <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> babbled:

> 
> Robert Taylor wrote:
> > On the new Iphones, you HAVETO get a 2 year contract.  
> > If you decide to quit you will pay a fee that will total up greater than 
> > the $600 the phone is worth.
> 
> The first iPhone was released june 29/2007 and the first hacked that allow
> you to use it with any operator was announced on july 9/2007. It will happen
> again and unlocked iPhones 3G will be available, it does not matter if the
> first bunch are stolen, second hand or refurbished, it short time everyone
> will be able to buy an iPhone 3G without contract for almost the same price
> than it contract. Then we will be able to compare unsubsidized iphones with
> moko. until that moment lets end the flame :-) but if I am right the iPhone
> will be cheaper even unsubsidized. (although i would buy a moko anyway)

not so simple. i think he business plan is changing because before this
happened with the 1st iphone. people could buy without contract. it was assumed
that the phone lock would force people to get a contract anyway and apple bore
the risk by losing out on their cut of the carrier's revenue (at&t). so they
sold it at $399 or $499 etc. and din't get any money from at&t after that.

now it changes with the 3g iphone. you must sign up when you buy. sure - you
can now take that phone, unlock it, re-sell it, but you are stuck with a
contract you must keep paying for... with no phone to use on that contract
unless you buy another phone - outright. there will be contract termination
clauses if you want to cancel then and this will help cover the subsidy - of
not completely cover it and then some.

sure - some (a very few) phones will somehow be smuggled from the factory or
from shipments before they get to an apple or at&t or other carrier store, and
some may be sold "under the counter" without contract - but i guarantee that
that likely is a business losing proposition for anyone as they get a rebate
once they sign you on a contract. selling without a contract will mean hey have
to jack up the price to cover the lost rebate money.

as such - legal, legitimate and easy to get 3g iphones WITHOUT contract are
going to be much more than $199.

> >> furthermore the freedom, there is a war for the smartphones market and a
> >> freephone have to be competitive  in price, not only in quality and
> >> philosophy. 
> 
> >> > This is only true if you do what you are insisting on doing, comparing 
> > things that are not of equal value. While it is fine for consumers to 
> > be ignorant of these facts and actually think your argument is valid, 
> > it's not correct on this thread as you are clearly educated and 
> > understand the reality of the situation.
> 
> 
> not equal value? Moko, iPhone, iRiver, Blackberry... we are talking about
> smartphones, and money is money. If you buy an orange, and apple or a pinable
> you pay with money!! every fruit have advantages and disadvantages, but you
> pay anyway
> 
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-- 
Carsten Haitzler (The Rasterman) <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>

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Re: Font type and size was (QVGA V/s VGA for GTA03)

[Dale Schumacher]

If your current display is around 150dpi, you can see what QVGA would be
like with something like this:

xterm -fn '*-clean-*--6-*-c-40*' &

This will give you a terminal window with a 4x6 font cell (3x5 for
characters + 1px spacing).  Note that the automatic "smear bold" make this
font unreadable, but the non-bold works.

However, I would much prefer to use a larger font on a VGA-size display with
285dpi, like this:

xterm -fn '*-clean-med*--16-*-c-80-*' -fb '*-clean-bold*--16-*-c-80-*' &


-- Forwarded message --
> From: David Samblas Martinez <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
> To: List for Openmoko community discussion 
> Date: Tue, 10 Jun 2008 22:44:35 + (GMT)
> Subject: Re: Font type and size was (QVGA V/s VGA for GTA03)
> But I have no knowlege about this font, hehehe I like it. ~70 chars/line in
> the example of 291 pixels so in a 640 will be about ~160 chars in one line
> (penden to confirm the minimum distance to be readable maybe 3 cm hehehe
> well now seriouly I was able to read the example in a 1280x768 10.6" inch
> screen so about 140 dpi in 40 cm distance with no movement (in a desk). I
> totally agree that this font is not for work but it can be used to make a
> text thumbnail in a icon of a text file or to and advanced text editor had a
> mosaic quickview of all open text files
>
> Only dumb maths 160 columns x 60 lines = 4600 chars per screen (well maybe
> a lot of strange dots on a screen)
>
>
> --- El mar, 10/6/08, Dave O'Connor <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> escribió:
>
> > De: Dave O'Connor <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
> > Asunto: Re: QVGA V/s VGA for GTA03 (was something about yummy CPU-GPU
> combos!)
> > Para: "List for Openmoko community discussion" <
> community@lists.openmoko.org>
> > CC: "Dotan Cohen" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>, "Flemming Richter Mikkelsen" <
> [EMAIL PROTECTED]>
> > Fecha: martes, 10 junio, 2008 8:04
> > I'm with Robert on this one. Took me a while to parse
> > many of the
> > characters on that image.
> >
> > On Tue, 10 Jun 2008, robert lazarski wrote:
> >
> > > On Tue, Jun 10, 2008 at 12:12 PM, The Rasterman
> > Carsten Haitzler
> > > <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
> > >> On Tue, 10 Jun 2008 15:57:36 +0300 "Dotan
> > Cohen" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> babbled:
> > >>
> > >>> 2008/6/10 The Rasterman Carsten Haitzler
> > <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>:
> >  nb - your chars just become tall (3x7).
> > eg:
> > 
> > >>>
> > >>> I understand. I would still like to see a
> > screenshot of fstab or
> > >>> xorg.conf open in vim with such a font on qvga
> > screen. I don't mind
> > >>> getting used to some displeasures, however
> > others I avoid if possible.
> > >>
> > >>
> > http://hea-www.harvard.edu/~fine/images/fonts/atari-small-samp.gif
> > >>
> > >
> > > That's painful for this reader. I couldn't
> > write or read code - or
> > > anything really - in that font for more than a few
> > seconds. IMHO, It'd
> > > be kind of ironic that a "totally hackable"
> > phone wouldn't have the
> > > ability to read or write text. FYI, I did lasik
> > corrective surgery so
> > > my eyesight is relatively good .
> > >
> > > Robert
>
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Re: No 3G for GTA03, 2G/EDGE only?

[wim . delvaux]

On Tuesday 10 June 2008 22:31:52 thomasg wrote:
> On Tue, Jun 10, 2008 at 3:12 PM, <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
> > In fact 2G/Edge is really fast (more like standard ADSL speeds over here
> > in Europe).
>
> You're kidding, right?
> EDGE maxes out at about 470 kbps - if you get a full channel (8 timeslots)
> for yourself.
> In most GSM networks one of the timeslots is reserved for signalling (BCCH)
> so 7 staying (~420 kbps).
> Even this is only true if you get coding scheme 9. But then you'd have to
> have a device that supports EDGE at this rates.
> Most devices only support up to ~250 kbps (mostly less). Under real life
> conditions you'll get about 120 to 200 kbps as best rates.
> In germany DSL starts at 384 kbps if the landline is very long. The slowest
> available option normally is 1000 kbps. The average should be between 3000
> and 6000 kbps. 16000 kbps are available in most areas. Max is at 25000 or
> 5 in some cities.
> There are other countries like sweden where much higher rates are common.

Well entry level ADSL here in belgium are 250 Kbits.
Also UMTS claimed 2Mbits are never acchieved except perhaps in densly 
populated area

>
> > Also latency is the real pain for Cellurar communication.
> >
> > CU
> > W
> >
> > > That sounds crazy!
> > >
> > > ___
> > > Openmoko community mailing list
> > > community@lists.openmoko.org
> > > http://lists.openmoko.org/mailman/listinfo/community
> >
> > ___
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> > http://lists.openmoko.org/mailman/listinfo/community



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Re: Free Runner price vs iphone 3G price

[ian douglas]

Robert Taylor wrote:
> Just compare equal things. 

We'll have to agree to disagree on the definition of "equal".

Hear me out:

By my calculations below, a consumer buying an iPhone or a Freerunner, 
and using AT&T for a voice/data plan, is going to spend about $2600 over 
two years no matter which phone they buy.

Jorge's original posting in this thread said the following:
 > the new iPhone 3G price was announced, and the 8 Gigas version will
 > cost only $199 USD
and
 > now the FreeRunner is less competitive than the iPhone in terms
 > of price.

He was asking about straight out-of-pocket expense, not about subsidies. 
The end consumer is only going to see the price tag on the phone itself.

The consumer will look at the iPhone and see a price of $199.
Then they'll look at the Freerunner and see a price tag of $399.

If they choose the $199 iPhone, they get locked into a two year 
contract, likely paying $100 per month for a voice/data plan. Over 24 
months, their total cost is going to be about $2600.

If they choose the $399 Freerunner, they aren't locked into a minimum 2 
year contract, but they'll still need monthly service for the same 
24-month period. As I mentioned in a previous message, a plain 
voice/data plan with AT&T is still going to cost $90 or more depending 
on the plan you pick. After 24 months, they've still paid $2600.

That looks pretty 'equal' to me, and *I* believe the average consumer 
will feel the same way. If you don't agree with that, then you and I 
simply don't agree on it, but that still doesn't warrant calling 
someone's communication "nonsense" simply because you don't agree with them.

The Freerunner would perhaps be cheaper if the consumer buys "pay as you 
go" minutes/data instead of a monthly plan.
The Freerunner would *definitely* be cheaper if they buy the iPhone and 
start buying applications through iTunes for their phone.

> If you want to compare the total cost, compare the total cost of buying 
> the new iphone UNLOCKED at retail cost (you can't) plus the data package 
> and THEN we can talk.

But the consumer isn't asked to pay the full unlocked price of the 
iPhone. Just because AT&T subsidizes the phone by lessening the profit 
they make on the $100/month you'll pay them for using their service, the 
consumer isn't paying "more" for the phone since they'd still have to 
pay for the same voice/data service to use a Freerunner. It just means 
AT&T makes more profit on the voice/data plan because they haven't 
subsidized anything.

And you still haven't followed up with how you calculated the iPhone to 
cost 'twice' as much as the Freerunner.

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Re: QVGA V/s VGA for GTA03 (was something about yummy CPU-GPU combos!)

[The Rasterman]

On Wed, 11 Jun 2008 00:44:09 +0200 "Flemming Richter Mikkelsen"
<[EMAIL PROTECTED]> babbled:


> > 3" 480x272. it's thinner than the current vga 2.8" by a fair bit and a tiny
> > bit longer (as it is wide). it seems almost the perfect screen for a
> > smaller/slimmer model like gta04/05 etc. same # of pixels as the PSP screen,
> > but in a much smaller space.
> Nice! So the phones will be smaller:)

no idea. it is just something i have seen and thought was nice. i also saw a
432x240 3" screen - exact same dimensions. it's used in several japanese
phones. that is what first got me onto the widescreen wqvga trail. but nothing
has been even closely decided there. it's all looking around.

if the vocal group here are to be accounted for going to these screens would be
utterly bad and we should accept nothing less than vga so wvga (800x480) is the
only way up into the future.

ouch. poor cpu.

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Re: QVGA V/s VGA for GTA03 (was something about yummy CPU-GPU combos!)

[The Rasterman]

On Wed, 11 Jun 2008 00:51:03 +0200 "Flemming Richter Mikkelsen"
<[EMAIL PROTECTED]> babbled:


> > http://hea-www.harvard.edu/~fine/Tech/x11fonts.html
> >
> > see the 4x8 font at the top. bdf downloadable and usable.
> Wow! That is amazing! Now I am 100% convinced that QVGA is not
> that bad:) I could read it without any problems.

cool. as i said. i don't think all the doom and gloom if we had qvga is
warranted. it is still surprisingly good. the physical screen size is much more
of a factor (imho), and if we went to a larger screen at qvga - we'd be in
trouble of a nasty display. 2.8" i think is the limit. most qvga's i've seen at
2.2->2.8". maybe up to 3". but qvga can be usable for an 80x24 terminal. it's
been done before for those who have followed handhelds.org and the early days
of linux on the ipaq, zaurus etc.

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Re: Free Runner price vs iphone 3G price

[The Rasterman]

On Tue, 10 Jun 2008 10:56:44 -0700 ian douglas <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
babbled:

> Robert Taylor wrote:
> > You pay through the nose for it because you HAVETO sign up for a 2 year 
> > contract minimum.
> 
> Granted, the Apple and AT&T partnership greatly subsidizes the cost, 
> because of the $960 ($40/mo unlimited data plan for 2 yrs) to $2400 
> ($100/mo unlimited voice/data for 2 yrs) that you'd spend with AT&T also 
> helps cover the hidden cost of the hardware.
> 
> And while I personally don't care much for the iPhone, you also have to 
> sign up for a voice/data plan to use the Freerunner... You're still 
> paying the $960-$2400 over two years, but there's not offset of cost of 
> the hardware to the consumer. The monthly fees you pay that doesn't pay 
> for the actual use of the cell network is 100% profit to AT&T instead of 
> going to Apple to help pay for the hardware.
> 
> Same with TMobile, and I imagine any other carrier who offsets the price 
> of their phones to lock you into a contract.
> 
> Just my $0.02.
> 
> What you're paying the extra money for, for the Freerunner, is the 
> freedom of doing whatever you want with your phone. Sure, the iPhone has 
> their SDK released, but all applications still have to go through Apple 
> to operate on your phone -- I don't know if the SDK even allows you to 
> build an application just for your own iPhone to test it. Also, their 
> mobile OS is closed source -- you have no access to hack or tweak it to 
> do *exactly* what you want it to. You can't change the applications that 
> come with the phone, you can't do a lot of things. Sure, they have lots 
> of eye candy and some solid-looking applications, but once we as a 
> community port applications to the Freerunner hardware to run on 
> OpenMoko, we'll be leaps and bounds ahead of the iPhone software.
> 
> That, to me, is worth the extra purchase price.

this is mostly thanks to the fact that carriers in the usa have no options of
"byo" (bring your own) handset. they always subsidise something and thus have
it built into their pricing model. other carriers elsewhere in the world have
different prices if all you do is buy a sim card... :)


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Re: Free Runner price vs iphone 3G price

[The Rasterman]

On Tue, 10 Jun 2008 14:57:04 -0700 Robert Taylor <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
babbled:

> ian douglas wrote:
> >
> > Exactly.
> >
> > Whether you get the iPhone, a Freerunner, a Nokia, a Samsung, 
> > whatever... you still need to pay for the cellular service.
> >
> > Yes, it's cheaper if you buy pay-as-you-go service, and yes, if you buy 
> > the 'locked' iPhone (retail box from AT&T) you *must* buy into a contract.
> >   
> Sorry, to clarify.
> 
> To clear up my previous post you are comparing to different things:
> 
> A $600 SUBSIDIZED phone on a 2 year contract ($200 up front cost to 
> subscriber) VS a $200 moko UNSUBSIDIZED phone PLUS a 2 year contract.
> 
> Of course they are bloody the same price up front, THE MOKO ISN'T 
> SUBSIDIZED.
> 
> Please, compare equal things.
> 
> If you want to compare a subsidized iPhone then compare a subsidized 
> moko which will be free with any reasonable access plan.

slight catch. a subsidised neo likely wouldn't be open. subsidies are given to
phones because they get locked down to:

only work on that operators network
disable features so people must use the operator to send/get data
only allow software bought from your operator to run
etc. etc.

i'm not saying these are specifically happening on specific phones, but this
kind of thing is what gets a phone subsidised down to $0. a freerunner
subsidised would now cramp your style (freedom). do you REALLY want that? :) so
in the end the only thing you can do is compare it to a full-priced iphone or
any other competition that is not locked down in any way by/to a carrier. then
you can compare. :)

> The moko is cheaper PERIOD and you won't be getting the new iPhones on 
> ebay for 200 quid because YOU CAN'T BUY THEM WITHOUT A CONTRACT.
> 
> If you want to buy a $600 dollar subsidized phone, fine go ahead.  Why 
> are you posting nonsense here?
> 
> Goddamn.  You guys make it really hard not to flame everyone on such 
> simple calculations.
> 
> Rob
> 
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Re: comparing Apples and Oranges $199 iPhone Freerunner GTA02

[Piotr Duda]

Robin Paulson pisze:
[..]
> i remember reading somewhere that the iphone's os can't run multiple
> applications at once - sorry no source for this. did i get this right,
> if i did, that's a major bonus to om/freerunner?


i think iPhone OSX allows to run multiple application at once (native,
system apps)... this is the SDK that not allows to write multitasking
applications AFAIK...

Piotr

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Re: QVGA V/s VGA for GTA03 (was something about yummy CPU-GPU combos!)

[The Rasterman]

On Tue, 10 Jun 2008 16:40:08 +0100 Stroller <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> babbled:

> 
> On 10 Jun 2008, at 02:17, Carsten Haitzler (The Rasterman) wrote:
> > browsing full web pages scrammed into a 2.8" screen as many have  
> > suggested, is
> > really... pushing such a tiny screen far beyond its usefulness. web  
> > pages are
> > "designed" for 14" or 17" screens or so. squeezing them down into  
> > 2.8" is nigh
> > madness. it's possible - but vga vs qvga there isn't the factor  
> > (imho) :)
> 
> I'm sorry, Carsten, but this just makes me think you're nuts. Um, I  
> mean, eccentric.
> 
> I mean, I know you know loads more about this sort of thing than I  
> do, but mobile phone web-browsers are absolutely standard these days.

never said otherwise but the screen is physically small. very. put it at a
normal usage distance and it covers a small fraction of the field of view a
standard desktop screen does. web pages are normally designed for the field of
view of a desktop screen. either you play zooming games to squeeze it down, or
scrolling, or play re-formatting games. however you look at it - you won't get
close to the same experience.

of course web pages designed for small screens... that's another matter! :)

> I can see your point that the size of mobile phone screens makes for  
> poor viewing, but that doesn't mean we're not going to do it anyway -  
> viewing a webpage when you're out and about is SO tremendously useful  
> (maybe not all the time, but when one needs it) that it's got to be a  
> design consideration.
> 
> And to say that 4 times the pixels makes no discernible difference in  
> this? Well, c'mon!

it makes a difference - but not as much of one as you want to think when using
it normally. (normal distance from your eyes, etc.). you end up needing larger
fonts to be able to read it (unless you have spectacular vision) and so the
amount of content it fits is fairly low...

that's my main point. yes - the screen is nice. but it is physically small.
after months and months of being at it - running apps on it, making stuff work
- and work for fingers, font sizes just go up and up. any form of
gadget/control is just big so it can be hit with a finger (yes - we are going
for finger control. nothing new. the device wasn't designed for a stylus - no
place to hold one), so in the end - vga vs qvga is much less of a content issue
when you hit this point and more of a quality issue.

as i said before - maybe it just needs people to get them in hand and use it
for a while.

> True, there may be many people who never use the web-browser in their  
> mobile phone, but my Mum just uses the cheapest mobile phone she got  
> for £20 from Tesco. Likewise my ex-girlfriend bought her mobile phone  
> because it was pink, or pretty by whatever other criteria is  
> important this week.
> 
> People buying Openmoko phones will do so because they want to install  
> applications (if only one or two) on them, and these are the sort of  
> people who will turn to a web-browser when they're stuck for some  
> piece of information and away from home.

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Re: QVGA V/s VGA for GTA03 (was something about yummy CPU-GPU combos!)

[The Rasterman]

On Wed, 11 Jun 2008 01:07:40 +0200 Joerg Reisenweber <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
babbled:

> Am Di  10. Juni 2008 schrieb Carsten Haitzler:
> > On Tue, 10 Jun 2008 17:16:06 +0800 "Wilkinson, Alex"
> > <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> babbled:
> > 
> > > 0n Tue, Jun 10, 2008 at 01:43:08PM +0800, Carsten Haitzler wrote: 
> > > 
> > > >we are in a world where to get gfx support to run such high 
> resolutions
> > > >means we need to have closed drivers. and that is not
> > > 
> > > Curious, why is that ?
> > 
> > graphics is the most intensive thing your device is likely to do in terms of
> > processing. if you want soft drop shadows, alpha blending (and trust me -
> > everyone is drooling for it out there - the iphone is doing it already) the
> 
> No, I won't trust you here! I give a SH*T on soft shadows, even on my
> desktop. I switch off animation because I think it's annoying waste of time
> to see "the same movie" over and over. Alpha blending? Eeew! Useless.

the day the design mockups for the ui i see stop having alpha transparency is
the day i make this unimportant. until that day, your "i don't care about this"
is the kind of opinion that i also am not interested in, because i am being
shown ui designs hat REQUIRE it in the long run between windows, and in the
short term is being faked with software within windows. i am just trying to
make something possible that is being requested, and has been for a long time.
not just say "i don't care".

> Every single argument been mentioned multiple times here. Redundance. 
> GTA03 has VGA - period!

things can change - unlikely to be, but can. i have said it many times already.

> 04 even better i'd bet on it. 05 virtually no-one even thinking of now, not
> to mention sourceability of parts when it's coming to real.
> 
> And now I'm definitely stopping to feed this tro.. er, thread, which btw
> seems nobody is looking on the weird subject any more :-/
> ETX
> jOERG
> 


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Re: QVGA V/s VGA for GTA03 (was something about yummy CPU-GPU combos!)

[The Rasterman]

On Tue, 10 Jun 2008 13:00:54 -0300 "robert lazarski" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
babbled:

> On Tue, Jun 10, 2008 at 12:12 PM, The Rasterman Carsten Haitzler
> <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
> > On Tue, 10 Jun 2008 15:57:36 +0300 "Dotan Cohen" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
> > babbled:
> >
> >> 2008/6/10 The Rasterman Carsten Haitzler <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>:
> >> > nb - your chars just become tall (3x7). eg:
> >> >
> >>
> >> I understand. I would still like to see a screenshot of fstab or
> >> xorg.conf open in vim with such a font on qvga screen. I don't mind
> >> getting used to some displeasures, however others I avoid if possible.
> >
> > http://hea-www.harvard.edu/~fine/images/fonts/atari-small-samp.gif
> >
> 
> That's painful for this reader. I couldn't write or read code - or
> anything really - in that font for more than a few seconds. IMHO, It'd
> be kind of ironic that a "totally hackable" phone wouldn't have the
> ability to read or write text. FYI, I did lasik corrective surgery so
> my eyesight is relatively good .

hold it so that it covers the same visual field the 2.8" on the freerunner
would. it's easier to read. :) i do agree - it's not great for code - but for
normal shell usage it's adequate for editing said files which don't use
punctuation and other symbol chars much. :)

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Re: QVGA V/s VGA for GTA03 - product management, features & assumptions

[The Rasterman]

On Tue, 10 Jun 2008 15:15:53 -0400 "Steven Milburn" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
babbled:

fyi - that animation of the window popping open and then the pause until it
fills - is the application starting up. that is used to "cover up" the fact it
takes 1 or 2 or 3 seconds to start. on the freerunner you just sit and wait
with nothing but a little ticking clock thing - on the iphone you do the same
thing - just a zoom out and display a "screenshot" in the meantime is used.

so as such - the blame should really be apportioned to the kernel and
application space for not being able to start "instantly" :) not to the
animation which is just keeping you amused while you wait anyway (better some
feedback than none while starting). :) also note - that zoom is done by the
graphics accelerator almost entirely, which is idle while a process starts, so
it's unused resources. :)

> I have used an iPhone, my wife's.  The animations are pretty at first.
> After a while, they're just annoying.  My wife gets impatient waiting for
> windows to get out of the way so she can get on with what she's trying to
> do.  What's really funny is that some times the phone will do all that neat
> animation, and the window that shows up has no content.  You stare at an
> empty contact list for as much as 3 seconds easily before it suddenly fills
> up with names.
> 
> My wife may be an exception to the rule here.  She sometimes does data entry
> at work and has the dialogs of her application memorized so she can type in
> the fields much faster than the application can keep up.  When the keyboard
> beeps, she'll sit back and take a sip of her beverage while the application
> is popping dialogs up all over the place filling in what she typed.  It's
> fun to watch.  (FWIW: the application is running over a slow network via
> citrix, so it would take a lot to speed things up.  She's stopped asking)
> 
> With the touch screen UI, she can't use this approach.  She has to wait.
> 
> --Steve
> 
> On Tue, Jun 10, 2008 at 2:13 PM, Stroller <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
> 
> > Reading these posts of the last few days it has just occurred to me
> > that it's not Carsten we should be beating up on here.
> > Who the heck asked for translucency and flashy animations?
> >
> > Management seem to be asking for this "alpha" bleeding rubbish, and
> > it seems to me that we users need to be telling management that we
> > don't care a heck for it.
> >
> > Sure, I know the iPhone does this now, but that doesn't mean Openmoko
> > has to do it. Do we really want Openmoko to be just another iPhone
> > clone? I know we see a fair number of posts on here about the iPhone,
> > but surely that's just a result of the current buzz - is UI animation
> > really a *necessity* in the long-term (or medium-term) future of the
> > mobile phone market?
> >
> > DISCLAIMER: I haven't used an iPhone, and I'm not terribly interested
> > in it.
> 


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Re: comparing Apples and Oranges $199 iPhone Freerunner GTA02

[kenneth marken]

On Tuesday 10 June 2008 23:42:30 Robin Paulson wrote:
> 2008/6/10 Ron K. Jeffries <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>:
> > [I trust this will not initiate a flame war.] Please?
> >
> > iPhone v2 announced today. I'd like to understand
> > on a hardware basis ONLY (I grok the value of
> > free and open source) how does
> > the entry level $199 iPhone with 4GB
> > compare with Freerunner GTA02.
> >
> > where I get lost is how much RAM iPhone
> > has vs Freerunner. I realize I can buy
>
> i remember reading somewhere that the iphone's os can't run multiple
> applications at once - sorry no source for this. did i get this right,
> if i did, that's a major bonus to om/freerunner?
>

in theory the os can multitask. its basically a variant of the bsd kernel and 
so on used in osx. jailbreaked current gen iphones multitask. but apple have 
but a limit on sdk based apps, claiming battery life reasons. instead, if one 
wants to liten for im traffic or similar, one sign up with a apple messaging 
server that will pass this on to the individual phone, kinda like a push mail 
service.

so for a im client it will be:

im network interface at app makers place -> apple message server -> iphone, 
where it will show up as one of 3 kinds of onscreen messages.

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Re: Free Runner price vs iphone 3G price - Things clear

[ramsesoriginal]

On Wed, Jun 11, 2008 at 12:51 AM, Robert Taylor
<[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
> Jorge . wrote:
>> Hello,
>>
>> This post is going further my expectations :) so, lets put the things in 
>> order:
>>
> Okay.
>> 1) FreeRunner and its freedom is the best, so we dont need an argue about 
>> the good reasons to buy one :)
>>
> Right!
>> 2) In countries where you have to sign a two year contract, the iPhone 3G 
>> will be more expensive at the end, but this is not the situation of everyone.
>>
> Not true, the iphone is subsidized the moko isn't.  If the moko was
> subsidized it would be free.  This is TRUE FOR EVERYONE.
>> 3) Apple will say all time that you will have to sign a contract to get an 
>> iPhone, but in the reality they do nothing to stop people unlocking phones 
>> and selling them without AT&T contracts around the world (check ebay before 
>> telling again you have to sign a contract!!!), because they get money for 
>> that phones anyway. So I expect iPhones 3G being sold for $199 USD without 
>> any contract around the world, and for most people does not matter if this 
>> is legal or not.
>>
> Again, not true.  On the new Iphones, you HAVETO get a 2 year contract.
> If you decide to quit you will pay a fee that will total up greater than
> the $600 the phone is worth.

I am sorry for contraddicting, but you can get jailbraked iPhones for
around 200$,and the firmware of the 2.0 is already jailbraked since
some time, and even futher, some people are already trying to compil
linux for the iPhone 2.0.

>
> If you want to go ahead and throw away $600 bucks at the break of a
> contract and sell it on ebay go ahead.  Just stop posting nonsense.
>> 4) FreeRunner is a product, and need sales to survive. I will buy a 
>> Freerunner instead an iPhone because i want a free phone, but many people 
>> would prefer to buy an unlocked-hacked-nocontract iPhone on ebay for $199 
>> than an OpenMoko for $399. am I clear enough?
>>
> Not  clear at all.  If you were there would be no thread.  If you want
> to compare apples to apples, compare a subsidized iphone to a subsized
> moko, or unsubsidized iphone to an unsubsidized moko.
>
> There is NO POSSIBILITY of exception to this.  Just because a moko is
> not available as a subsidized device right now is irrelevant as its not
> available on the market.  More to the point the new iphone isn't
> available yet, just pricing.
>> furthermore the freedom, there is a war for the smartphones market and a 
>> freephone have to be competitive  in price, not only in quality and 
>> philosophy.
>>
> This is only true if you do what you are insisting on doing, comparing
> things that are not of equal value.  While it is fine for consumers to
> be ignorant of these facts and actually think your argument is valid,
> it's not correct on this thread as you are clearly educated and
> understand the reality of the situation.
>
> Just compare equal things and stop posting flawed arguments and there is
> no thread.
>>
>> Best wishes
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Re: comparing Apples and Oranges $199 iPhone Freerunner GTA02

[kenneth marken]

On Tuesday 10 June 2008 23:19:54 Flemming Richter Mikkelsen wrote:
> On 6/10/08, Ron K. Jeffries <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
> [...]
>
> > the two smart phones are aprox equal on
> > -- wi-fi
>
> But with limited usability on iPhone
>
> > -- accelerometer
>
> But with limited usability on iPhone
>
> > -- bluetooth
>
> But with limited usability on iPhone
>
> E.g. you cannot use VoIP with iPhone, etc, etc
>

well it can, or at least apple wont stop people from putting a voip app in the 
appstore. but it has to stay away from the gsm/umts part, it can only use 
wifi...

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Re: Free Runner price vs iphone 3G price

[Piotr Duda]

ian douglas pisze:
[...]
> For example, I pay $39.99/month for 450 daytime minutes and 5000 
> evening/weekend minutes every month. I pay an additional $39.99 per 
> month for an unlimited data plan. My total monthly cost is $79.98 plus 
> taxes and fees, so let's round it up to $90 per month. Over the course 
> of two years, my $90/month totals $2,160.
> 
[...]
I cant believe that there is no cheaper plans when you are not buying
any phone with it? is this really a case? if it is so, blame your
operator/us mobile market/god or all of them... here in old Europe you
can buy plans which are significantly cheaper where you not buying
a new phone with it...


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Re: Click Feedback?

[Lorn Potter]

Michael 'Mickey' Lauer wrote:
> Ok, a first summary:
> 
> *) I still like my tap sound.
> *) Almost all people do not want the tap sound.
> *) All people do care about getting event sounds while they're playing 
> something (needs help from a sound daemon or touching every application)
> *) I was wrong about the real meaning of PA deprecating autounloading. I have 
> discovered module-suspend-on-idle :)
> 
> Conclusions:
> 
> *) I will keep PA for the time being and activate module-suspend-on-idle
> *) You will be able to turn off the tap ;)
> 
> Thanks for all comments!
> 

What about the CPU performance?



-- 
Lorn 'ljp' Potter
Software Engineer, Systems Group, MES, Trolltech


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Re: Free Runner price vs iphone 3G price

[Robert Taylor]

Michael T. Dean wrote:
> On 06/10/2008 06:21 PM, ian douglas wrote:
>   
>> While I'm not trying to encourage any bitter feelings whatsoever, I'm 
>> curious how you calculated the iPhone costs twice as much as the 
>> Freerunner when you look at the bottom line of how many dollars you've 
>> spent after two years. Please elaborate on your calculations.
>> 
Are you serious?

Here, how about this calculation:  BUY THE NEW IPHONE SEPARATELY then 
add it to your monthly bill.  Thats how.

The moko isn't subsidized, if it were then you would be comparing the 
following:

$199 + contract vs $0 + plus contract.

Please stop comparing nonsensical situations.

Robert

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RE: Free Runner price vs iphone 3G price - Things clear

[Jorge .]

Robert Taylor wrote:
> On the new Iphones, you HAVETO get a 2 year contract.  
> If you decide to quit you will pay a fee that will total up greater than 
> the $600 the phone is worth.

The first iPhone was released june 29/2007 and the first hacked that allow you 
to use it with any operator was announced on july 9/2007. It will happen again 
and unlocked iPhones 3G will be available, it does not matter if the first 
bunch are stolen, second hand or refurbished, it short time everyone will be 
able to buy an iPhone 3G without contract for almost the same price than it 
contract. Then we will be able to compare unsubsidized iphones with moko. until 
that moment lets end the flame :-) but if I am right the iPhone will be cheaper 
even unsubsidized. (although i would buy a moko anyway)


>> furthermore the freedom, there is a war for the smartphones market and a 
>> freephone have to be competitive  in price, not only in quality and 
>> philosophy. 

>> > This is only true if you do what you are insisting on doing, comparing 
> things that are not of equal value. While it is fine for consumers to 
> be ignorant of these facts and actually think your argument is valid, 
> it's not correct on this thread as you are clearly educated and 
> understand the reality of the situation.


not equal value? Moko, iPhone, iRiver, Blackberry... we are talking about 
smartphones, and money is money. If you buy an orange, and apple or a pinable 
you pay with money!! every fruit have advantages and disadvantages, but you pay 
anyway

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Re: Click Feedback?

[Michael 'Mickey' Lauer]

Ok, a first summary:

*) I still like my tap sound.
*) Almost all people do not want the tap sound.
*) All people do care about getting event sounds while they're playing 
something (needs help from a sound daemon or touching every application)
*) I was wrong about the real meaning of PA deprecating autounloading. I have 
discovered module-suspend-on-idle :)

Conclusions:

*) I will keep PA for the time being and activate module-suspend-on-idle
*) You will be able to turn off the tap ;)

Thanks for all comments!

Mickey.

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Re: No 3G for GTA03, 2G/EDGE only?

[Joerg Reisenweber]

Am Mi  11. Juni 2008 schrieb ian douglas:
> As an aside, when comparing 2G and 3G:
> 
> Even according to Apple, the new iPhone 3G model will get up to 10 hours 
> of talk time on 2G but half as long (5 hours) in 3G mode.
> 
> I'd love to learn more about how voice quality differs between 2G and 3G 
> -- if a future GTA device gets 3G capability, I'd probably want to limit 
> my calling to 2G but switch to 3G for data, if that'd even be possible.

I heard Nokia needs a reboot to switch, and eats battery as if there's no 
tomorrow on 3G ;-)
/j


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Re: Free Runner price vs iphone 3G price

[Michael T. Dean]

On 06/10/2008 06:21 PM, ian douglas wrote:
> While I'm not trying to encourage any bitter feelings whatsoever, I'm 
> curious how you calculated the iPhone costs twice as much as the 
> Freerunner when you look at the bottom line of how many dollars you've 
> spent after two years. Please elaborate on your calculations.

Well, AT&T says that the new subsidy will cost them $600M.  So, I assume 
he just divided that figure by the total number of these new iPhones 
that AT&T will ever sell and added that to the $199 (with contract) 
consumer price for the new iPhone.  ;)

http://news.smh.com.au/technology/att-to-take-earnings-hit-from-iphone-subsidies-20080610-2o3s.html

Mike

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RE: Free Runner price vs iphone 3G price

[Jorge .]

Is what they always say, like microsoft saying their serial codes will not be 
hacked... but after one week someone finds a hack that activates the phone 
without AT&T and two weeks after you see unlocked phones in the street, i have 
no idea where the dealers get them, but you find the unlocked phones just a 
little more expensive than the phones in contract, and when the situation is 
out of control, Apple starts selling phones without contract... I am not 
guessing, it happened with the first generation of iPhones

 

> Date: Tue, 10 Jun 2008 23:07:07 +0100
> From: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
> To: community@lists.openmoko.org
> Subject: Re: Free Runner price vs iphone 3G price
> 
> Are you sure about that? According to Engadget [1] you will have to
> activate the contract in shop which seems to suggest a pretty bum deal
> if you plan on then unlocking it and selling it at $200. If you do I
> will buy one from you at that price ;)
> 
> http://www.engadget.com/2008/06/09/iphone-3g-purchase-and-activation-will-be-in-store-only/
> 
> 2008/6/10 Jorge . :
> [snip]
>>
>> Of course, thats why I want a FreeRunner!! but in the next months surely you 
>> can buy an unlocked iPhone 3G on ebay or the chinatown for $200 USD, and it 
>> affects the sales of FreeRunner, remember that GT02 is designed for mass 
>> production, not only for geeks like us who love free software
>>
>>
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Re: interface for people with very poor eyesight?

[Gilles Casse]

Hello,

You could possibly get feedback from the gnome accessibility mailing 
list, they already expressed interest for accessible smartphones:
http://mail.gnome.org/archives/gnome-accessibility-list/

I am interested by the neo as a device which could be potentially used 
eyes-free.

Best regards,
Gilles

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Re: comparing Apples and Oranges $199 iPhone Freerunner GTA02

[Lowell Higley]

On Tue, Jun 10, 2008 at 2:42 PM, Robin Paulson <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
wrote:

> i remember reading somewhere that the iphone's os can't run multiple
> applications at once - sorry no source for this. did i get this right,
> if i did, that's a major bonus to om/freerunner?
>
>
It's not that it "can't"... If I recall correctly, Apple made the decision
to have only one app running at a time (ie "kill game" should the phone
ring) in order to conserve battery.  That was a discussion I had almost a
year ago over several pints of ale... so my recollection may be off.
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Re: QVGA V/s VGA for GTA03 - product management, features & assumptions

[Joerg Reisenweber]

full ACK
/j


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Re: No 3G for GTA03, 2G/EDGE only?

[Robert Taylor]

Andy Powell wrote:
>   
>> Do you live on planet earth or some magical fairy land where you snap
>> your fingers and you get everything instantly?
>> 
>
> Mmm... I'm trying to work out if you just being an arse or you have a 
> question 
> in there. I'd like you to point out where I said anything about getting 
> anything instantly, with a click of my fingers. 
>
>   
I do want to once again appologize for this.  I hit submit before 
engaging brain.

It's spillover from the frustration of people INSISTING on comparing 
subsidized vs unsubsidized phones.

Sorry.

Rob

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Re: Free Runner price vs iphone 3G price

[Robert Taylor]

ian douglas wrote:
>
> alking about what's subsidized and what's not. We're 
> comparing "how much money have I paid out of my pocket after two years" 
> to compare a 2-year contract requirement versus owning a Freerunner.
>
>   
Well yes we are.

If the moko was subsidized it would effectively be free. 

Just compare equal things. 

The moko isnt' available as part of a subsidized package and according 
to postings it will take at least a year to get there.

Just stop comparing unequal things.

If you want to compare the total cost, compare the total cost of buying 
the new iphone UNLOCKED at retail cost (you can't) plus the data package 
and THEN we can talk.

Stop talking nonsense please.

Rob

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Re: Free Runner price vs iphone 3G price

[Lowell Higley]

On Tue, Jun 10, 2008 at 2:57 PM, Robert Taylor <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
wrote:

> A $600 SUBSIDIZED phone on a 2 year contract ($200 up front cost to
> subscriber) VS a $200 moko UNSUBSIDIZED phone PLUS a 2 year contract.
>
> Of course they are bloody the same price up front, THE MOKO ISN'T
> SUBSIDIZED.
>
>

Moko phone $200?!?!?!  Did I miss something? 
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Re: QVGA V/s VGA for GTA03 (was something about yummy CPU-GPU combos!)

[Joerg Reisenweber]

Am Di  10. Juni 2008 schrieb Carsten Haitzler:
> On Tue, 10 Jun 2008 17:16:06 +0800 "Wilkinson, Alex"
> <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> babbled:
> 
> > 0n Tue, Jun 10, 2008 at 01:43:08PM +0800, Carsten Haitzler wrote: 
> > 
> > >we are in a world where to get gfx support to run such high 
resolutions
> > >means we need to have closed drivers. and that is not
> > 
> > Curious, why is that ?
> 
> graphics is the most intensive thing your device is likely to do in terms of
> processing. if you want soft drop shadows, alpha blending (and trust me -
> everyone is drooling for it out there - the iphone is doing it already) the

No, I won't trust you here! I give a SH*T on soft shadows, even on my desktop. 
I switch off animation because I think it's annoying waste of time to 
see "the same movie" over and over. Alpha blending? Eeew! Useless.

Every single argument been mentioned multiple times here. Redundance. 
GTA03 has VGA - period! 
04 even better i'd bet on it. 05 virtually no-one even thinking of now, not to 
mention sourceability of parts when it's coming to real.

And now I'm definitely stopping to feed this tro.. er, thread, which btw seems 
nobody is looking on the weird subject any more :-/
ETX
jOERG


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Re: GTA03: New case? Bigger screen!

[Shawn Rutledge]

On Tue, Jun 10, 2008 at 9:02 AM, Ortwin Regel <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
> There has been all this fruitless talk about resolution. Well, what is
> really limiting the Neo's screen right now is not resolution
> (obviously), not speed (at least not on the GTA01, no idea how messed
> up the 02 situation is. I'd guess it's faster most of the time.) but
> size! If the GTA03 get's a new case design, please consider making the
> screen twice as big! Then we are finally at a size were
> two-thumb-typing starts to make sense and even people with bad eye
> sight can benefit from the high resolution (although I'm not convinced
> that second point is a positive one... <_<). The device wouldn't even
> have to be bigger for this because so much space was wasted in the
> original Neo design. The only handheld I have owned where the screen

I agree.

Maybe it could use the same screen as the Nokia tablets (800x480).

Thin is good though.

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Re: Free Runner price vs Meizu M8 price

[cdr]

On Tue Jun 10, 2008 at 08:38:30PM +0200, Ortwin Regel wrote:
> There are cheaper contracts if you don't get a phone with them in
> Germany. No idea what the situation in the US is. (It's probably
> godawful... :-/) Personally, I use a prepaid SIM card so I pay no
> monthly fees at all. Much cheaper for me than any contract. So for me
> the price advantage over an iPhone is very real.

although both vapor, iRiver and Meizu both have phones in the pipeline

at least iRivers 'runs linux' as well. 

apple is nowhere near as cost competitive as either of them..

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RE: Free Runner price vs iphone 3G price

[Dave O'Connor]

The software is Free, the hardware is Free but not in the beer sense. 
Look, if om don't make enough money there is no gta04. It has shortcomings 
but it's still much better an idea than the iphone. Your software will be 
free, no 30% cut for developers to go to apple. Your abilities to use the 
device are free. It's a trade off, pay now or pay later through being 
locked down or having to give your developer cut to apple. Your choice.


On Tue, 10 Jun 2008, Jorge . wrote:

>
>> Granted, the Apple and AT&T partnership greatly subsidizes the cost,
>> because of the $960 ($40/mo unlimited data plan for 2 yrs) to $2400
>> ($100/mo unlimited voice/data for 2 yrs) that you'd spend with AT&T also
>> helps cover the hidden cost of the hardware.
>
> No doubt, but you can buy unlocked iPhones on many places, including internet 
> and they dont cost $960
>
>> What you're paying the extra money for, for the Freerunner, is the
>> freedom of doing whatever you want with your phone. Sure, the iPhone has
>> their SDK released, but all applications still have to go through Apple
>> to operate on your phone -- I don't know if the SDK even allows you to
>> build an application just for your own iPhone to test it. Also, their
>> mobile OS is closed source -- you have no access to hack or tweak it to
>> do *exactly* what you want it to. You can't change the applications that
>> come with the phone, you can't do a lot of things.
>
> Of course, thats why I want a FreeRunner!! but in the next months surely you 
> can buy an unlocked iPhone 3G on ebay or the chinatown for $200 USD, and it 
> affects the sales of FreeRunner, remember that GT02 is designed for mass 
> production, not only for geeks like us who love free software
>
>
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Re: Free Runner price vs iphone 3G price - Things clear

[john]

As someone who owns an unlocked iPhone I understand how 3) works on
the old iPhone. What is not clear is the deal on the new iPhone. The
reports are that the person who buys it will have to enter the
contract when they buy it. Note, this is different than 3). The
reality is we don't know for sure what will happen in the different
regions yet. Therefore it is not as clear as you state.

John.

2008/6/10 Jorge . <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>:
>
> Hello,
>
> This post is going further my expectations :) so, lets put the things in 
> order:
>
> 1) FreeRunner and its freedom is the best, so we dont need an argue about the 
> good reasons to buy one :)
>
> 2) In countries where you have to sign a two year contract, the iPhone 3G 
> will be more expensive at the end, but this is not the situation of everyone.
>
> 3) Apple will say all time that you will have to sign a contract to get an 
> iPhone, but in the reality they do nothing to stop people unlocking phones 
> and selling them without AT&T contracts around the world (check ebay before 
> telling again you have to sign a contract!!!), because they get money for 
> that phones anyway. So I expect iPhones 3G being sold for $199 USD without 
> any contract around the world, and for most people does not matter if this is 
> legal or not.
>
> 4) FreeRunner is a product, and need sales to survive. I will buy a 
> Freerunner instead an iPhone because i want a free phone, but many people 
> would prefer to buy an unlocked-hacked-nocontract iPhone on ebay for $199 
> than an OpenMoko for $399. am I clear enough?
>
> furthermore the freedom, there is a war for the smartphones market and a 
> freephone have to be competitive  in price, not only in quality and 
> philosophy.
>
>
> Best wishes
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Re: QVGA V/s VGA for GTA03 - product management, features & assumptions

[David Samblas Martinez]

me too


--- El mar, 10/6/08, Robert Taylor <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> escribió:

> De: Robert Taylor <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
> Asunto: Re: QVGA V/s VGA for GTA03 - product management, features & 
> assumptions
> Para: "List for Openmoko community discussion" 
> Fecha: martes, 10 junio, 2008 9:49
> Ortwin Regel wrote:
> >>
> >> Reading these posts of the last few days it has
> just occurred to me
> >> that it's not Carsten we should be beating up
> on here.
> >> Who the heck asked for translucency and flashy
> animations?
> >>
> >> Management seem to be asking for this
> "alpha" bleeding rubbish, and
> >> it seems to me that we users need to be telling
> management that we
> >> don't care a heck for it.
> >>
> >> Sure, I know the iPhone does this now, but that
> doesn't mean Openmoko
> >> has to do it. Do we really want Openmoko to be
> just another iPhone
> >> clone? I know we see a fair number of posts on
> here about the iPhone,
> >> but surely that's just a result of the current
> buzz - is UI animation
> >> really a *necessity* in the long-term (or
> medium-term) future of the
> >> mobile phone market?
> >>
> >> DISCLAIMER: I haven't used an iPhone, and
> I'm not terribly interested
> >> in it. I do use a Mac as my main desktop, but
> that's not for the
> >> animation, it's because I want something that
> "just works" when I sit
> >> down at my computer. All us Mac fans found Expose
> to be a *massive*
> >> UI improvement when it was released, but
> that's because virtual
> >> desktops have always been rubbish on a Mac - with
> so many windows on
> >> a single desktop *some* way of finding the
> bottom-most one was
> >> required. The other day I was talking to a Linux
> developer who turned
> >> off compiz on his desktop because it slowed down
> his productivity -
> >> you simply don't need Expose if you have
> virtual desktops (which
> >> admittedly are not suitable for my granny).
> >>
> >> It seems to me that, whilst the iPhone's
> animation may "wow" people,
> >> what really distinguishes the iPhone is the same
> attention to UI
> >> simplicity that Apple have always brought to their
> products. It does
> >> a FEW things amazingly well, and that's where
> it separates itself
> >> from the majority of phones on the market, none of
> which *quite* suit
> >> the mass-market of users. Most users don't
> want to understand the
> >> filesystem on their mobile phone, so Apple do away
> with it; Apple
> >> have made it spectacularly easy (so much so that
> one must include in
> >> the discussion the word "intuitive") to
> email a photo taken on the
> >> camera or grabbed from a webpage, but they make it
> impossible to
> >> email attachments under many other circumstances.
> The majority of
> >> users don't want to copy & paste text on
> their mobile phones, so
> >> Apple just got rid of it - other manufacturers
> "muddy up" the phones
> >> they aim at girls and little old ladies (excuse
> me) by including the
> >> ability to copy & paste; Apple have realised
> that only a minority of
> >> business-phone users want or need that.
> >>
> >> The Neo & Freerunner have both been
> "smartphones", and that's surely
> >> the interest that draws Linux users to this list.
> We want to be able
> >> to shell into our unix servers, read PDFs and so
> on. The idea of an
> >> open phone fires our imagination because we can
> integrate our
> >> contacts from our LDAP servers and our diary with
> an iCal server, we
> >> can do whatever the heck we want with Openmoko -
> we want to ADD
> >> features, not remove them.
> >>
> >> In the context of that, does animation and
> transparency matter? Heck
> >> no! We want a phone that displays text & icons
> on the screen, and as
> >> long as the phone does that quick enough, we
> don't want you wasting
> >> resources on trying to make the
> "experience" more flashy.
> >>
> >> There has been mention in these threads about the
> screen requirements
> >> of smaller phones. I can only conclude from this
> that FIC are
> >> planning to leverage their experience in building
> smartphone hardware
> >> in order to break into to the larger market of
> small "girlie" and
> >> "soccer mom" phones. Fine, but please
> don't do this at the expense of
> >> your smartphone market. Honestly, I don't see
> how you can do this
> >> well, without castrating your power-phone
> offerings.
> >>
> >> Parts of this conversation have focussed on making
> a "use case" for
> >> VGA screens, but please, FIC management, make a
> use case for
> >> transparency and flashy animations before having
> Carsten work on it.
> >> Whilst I was writing an Apple spam arrived here,
> promoting today's
> >> new iPhone announcement - I clicked on the link to
> iSteve's
> >> presentation. The "enterprise" take-up
> from Fortune 500 companies was
> >> surely impressive, but this leverage is because of
> Exchange-
> >> compatibility and all the features that OS X gives
> to the iPhone for
> >> free, not the flashy animations. This is wher

Re: Free Runner price vs iphone 3G price - Things clear

[Robert Taylor]

Jorge . wrote:
> Hello,
>
> This post is going further my expectations :) so, lets put the things in 
> order:
>   
Okay.
> 1) FreeRunner and its freedom is the best, so we dont need an argue about the 
> good reasons to buy one :)
>   
Right!
> 2) In countries where you have to sign a two year contract, the iPhone 3G 
> will be more expensive at the end, but this is not the situation of everyone.
>   
Not true, the iphone is subsidized the moko isn't.  If the moko was 
subsidized it would be free.  This is TRUE FOR EVERYONE.
> 3) Apple will say all time that you will have to sign a contract to get an 
> iPhone, but in the reality they do nothing to stop people unlocking phones 
> and selling them without AT&T contracts around the world (check ebay before 
> telling again you have to sign a contract!!!), because they get money for 
> that phones anyway. So I expect iPhones 3G being sold for $199 USD without 
> any contract around the world, and for most people does not matter if this is 
> legal or not. 
>   
Again, not true.  On the new Iphones, you HAVETO get a 2 year contract.  
If you decide to quit you will pay a fee that will total up greater than 
the $600 the phone is worth.

If you want to go ahead and throw away $600 bucks at the break of a 
contract and sell it on ebay go ahead.  Just stop posting nonsense.
> 4) FreeRunner is a product, and need sales to survive. I will buy a 
> Freerunner instead an iPhone because i want a free phone, but many people 
> would prefer to buy an unlocked-hacked-nocontract iPhone on ebay for $199 
> than an OpenMoko for $399. am I clear enough?
>   
Not  clear at all.  If you were there would be no thread.  If you want 
to compare apples to apples, compare a subsidized iphone to a subsized 
moko, or unsubsidized iphone to an unsubsidized moko.

There is NO POSSIBILITY of exception to this.  Just because a moko is 
not available as a subsidized device right now is irrelevant as its not 
available on the market.  More to the point the new iphone isn't 
available yet, just pricing.
> furthermore the freedom, there is a war for the smartphones market and a 
> freephone have to be competitive  in price, not only in quality and 
> philosophy. 
>   
This is only true if you do what you are insisting on doing, comparing 
things that are not of equal value.  While it is fine for consumers to 
be ignorant of these facts and actually think your argument is valid, 
it's not correct on this thread as you are clearly educated and 
understand the reality of the situation.

Just compare equal things and stop posting flawed arguments and there is 
no thread.
>
> Best wishes
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Re: QVGA V/s VGA for GTA03 (was something about yummy CPU-GPU combos!)

[Flemming Richter Mikkelsen]

On 6/10/08, The Rasterman Carsten Haitzler <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
> On Tue, 10 Jun 2008 15:53:49 +0300 "Dotan Cohen" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> babbled:
>
> > 2008/6/10 The Rasterman Carsten Haitzler <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>:
> > >> 2008/6/9 The Rasterman Carsten Haitzler <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>:
> > >> > an 80x24 terminal is possible to make it readable @ qvga - if we allow
> > >> > scrolling. (and possible in landscape with an ultra-tiny 4-pixel wide
> > >> > font - possible (3 pixels for text, 1 for space). not very nice though.
> > >>
> > >> That is unusable. I'm sorry, I will not force myself to use that. I
> > >> will buy something else. Using the terminal on a remote machine with a
> > >> 4 pixels font is possibile like it is possible to eat cockroaches for
> > >> lunch everyday. There are some 'can get by' that I will not force
> > >> myself to get by with.
> > >
> > > have you done it? have you tried it? i have. it works ok. not beautiful -
> > > but definitely functional.
> > >
> >
> > No, I haven't. Could you post a screenshot of how it looks? Maybe if I
> > see it I can be convinced, I'm at least that open minded.
>
> can't as i did it years ago on my ipaq. but it's the same font as here:
>
> http://hea-www.harvard.edu/~fine/Tech/x11fonts.html
>
> see the 4x8 font at the top. bdf downloadable and usable.
Wow! That is amazing! Now I am 100% convinced that QVGA is not
that bad:) I could read it without any problems.

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Re: Font type and size was (QVGA V/s VGA for GTA03)

[David Samblas Martinez]

But I have no knowlege about this font, hehehe I like it. ~70 chars/line in the 
example of 291 pixels so in a 640 will be about ~160 chars in one line (penden 
to confirm the minimum distance to be readable maybe 3 cm hehehe well now 
seriouly I was able to read the example in a 1280x768 10.6" inch screen so 
about 140 dpi in 40 cm distance with no movement (in a desk). I totally agree 
that this font is not for work but it can be used to make a text thumbnail in a 
icon of a text file or to and advanced text editor had a mosaic quickview of 
all open text files 

Only dumb maths 160 columns x 60 lines = 4600 chars per screen (well maybe a 
lot of strange dots on a screen) 


--- El mar, 10/6/08, Dave O'Connor <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> escribió:

> De: Dave O'Connor <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
> Asunto: Re: QVGA V/s VGA for GTA03 (was something about yummy CPU-GPU combos!)
> Para: "List for Openmoko community discussion" 
> CC: "Dotan Cohen" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>, "Flemming Richter Mikkelsen" <[EMAIL 
> PROTECTED]>
> Fecha: martes, 10 junio, 2008 8:04
> I'm with Robert on this one. Took me a while to parse
> many of the 
> characters on that image.
> 
> On Tue, 10 Jun 2008, robert lazarski wrote:
> 
> > On Tue, Jun 10, 2008 at 12:12 PM, The Rasterman
> Carsten Haitzler
> > <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
> >> On Tue, 10 Jun 2008 15:57:36 +0300 "Dotan
> Cohen" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> babbled:
> >>
> >>> 2008/6/10 The Rasterman Carsten Haitzler
> <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>:
>  nb - your chars just become tall (3x7).
> eg:
> 
> >>>
> >>> I understand. I would still like to see a
> screenshot of fstab or
> >>> xorg.conf open in vim with such a font on qvga
> screen. I don't mind
> >>> getting used to some displeasures, however
> others I avoid if possible.
> >>
> >>
> http://hea-www.harvard.edu/~fine/images/fonts/atari-small-samp.gif
> >>
> >
> > That's painful for this reader. I couldn't
> write or read code - or
> > anything really - in that font for more than a few
> seconds. IMHO, It'd
> > be kind of ironic that a "totally hackable"
> phone wouldn't have the
> > ability to read or write text. FYI, I did lasik
> corrective surgery so
> > my eyesight is relatively good .
> >
> > Robert
> >
> > ___
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> >
> >
> 
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Re: No 3G for GTA03, 2G/EDGE only?

[Mo Abrahams]

I think he might have been confusing EDGE with HSDPA, which can compete
with broadband speeds (and is marketed by some as mobile broadband)

For me the lack of 3G is a sticking point. Having just taken out a
contract with 3 (best price plan and good coverage for where I am about
to move), and absolutely loving the advantages that 3G brings, I am
wondering whether I can bear to go back to an inferior technology. I am
all for openness, my computers all run linux, my nintendo DS runs linux,
I will probably install it on a partition of my brain when the
technology arises, but there is a line at which I say "I am paying for
something here JUST because it is open, I already have something with
more of the features that are important to me". At the moment I am still
strongly tempted to get a GTA02 although it would be more like a PDA to
me than a phone since I wouldn't use my SIM in it, but if there was a
model with 3G I would definitely be getting, and phoning with, it.

Mo.

On Tue, 2008-06-10 at 22:31 +0200, thomasg wrote:
> On Tue, Jun 10, 2008 at 3:12 PM, <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
> wrote:
> In fact 2G/Edge is really fast (more like standard ADSL speeds
> over here in
> Europe).
> 
> You're kidding, right?
> EDGE maxes out at about 470 kbps - if you get a full channel (8
> timeslots) for yourself.
> In most GSM networks one of the timeslots is reserved for signalling
> (BCCH) so 7 staying (~420 kbps).
> Even this is only true if you get coding scheme 9. But then you'd have
> to have a device that supports EDGE at this rates.
> Most devices only support up to ~250 kbps (mostly less). Under real
> life conditions you'll get about 120 to 200 kbps as best rates.
> In germany DSL starts at 384 kbps if the landline is very long. The
> slowest available option normally is 1000 kbps. The average should be
> between 3000 and 6000 kbps. 16000 kbps are available in most areas.
> Max is at 25000 or 5 in some cities.
> There are other countries like sweden where much higher rates are
> common.
>  
> 
> Also latency is the real pain for Cellurar communication.
> 
> CU
> 
> W
> >
> > That sounds crazy!
> >
> > ___
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> 
> 
> 
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Re: QVGA V/s VGA for GTA03 (was something about yummy CPU-GPU combos!)

[Flemming Richter Mikkelsen]

On 6/10/08, The Rasterman Carsten Haitzler <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
> On Tue, 10 Jun 2008 18:01:03 +0530 "rakshat hooja" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> 
> babbled:
>
> > >
> > >
> > >
> > > as i have said before - gta03 is vga - as it stands, but can go to qvga
> > > easily,
> > > but is unlikely to. in the future who knows. it'd be a tradeoff of screen
> > > pixel
> > > count vs processor speed vs any graphics acceleration we can get - if any.
> > >
> > > --
> > > Carsten Haitzler (The Rasterman) <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
> > >
> > > Hi Carsten,
> >
> > There was a WQVGA screen you once mentioned on the IRC and said you liked a
> > lot for the GTA04 screen. I can't remember the specs right now but do you
> > remember which one it was?
>
> 3" 480x272. it's thinner than the current vga 2.8" by a fair bit and a tiny 
> bit
> longer (as it is wide). it seems almost the perfect screen for a
> smaller/slimmer model like gta04/05 etc. same # of pixels as the PSP screen,
> but in a much smaller space.
Nice! So the phones will be smaller:)

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Re: Free Runner price vs iphone 3G price

[ian douglas]

Robert Taylor wrote:
> Please, compare equal things.
> Why are you posting nonsense here?

Rob, I'm not the one who posted the original article, and I take offense 
to you saying that my thoughts are 'nonsense' -- that sort of attitude 
isn't helpful to anybody.

In a previous post, you said:
 > The iPhone is godawful expensive no matter how you slice it.

In another, you said:
 > The iPhone is AT LEAST twice as expensive as the Moko.

We're not talking about what's subsidized and what's not. We're 
comparing "how much money have I paid out of my pocket after two years" 
to compare a 2-year contract requirement versus owning a Freerunner.

While I'm not trying to encourage any bitter feelings whatsoever, I'm 
curious how you calculated the iPhone costs twice as much as the 
Freerunner when you look at the bottom line of how many dollars you've 
spent after two years. Please elaborate on your calculations.

-id


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Re: No 3G for GTA03, 2G/EDGE only?

[Andy Powell]

On Tuesday 10 June 2008 20:57, Robert Taylor wrote:
> Andy Powell wrote:
> > At some point we're going to start explaining to the folks at OM that we
> > can't actually afford to buy every model they produce to help fund this
> > evolution...  I really don't want to have a collection of interesting but
> > ultimately useless devices - Let's face it the gta01 has issues the gta02
> > has issues, perhaps it *is* time for a revolution...
>
> Let's face it, the iPhone has issues, Nokias have issues, Samsung has
> issues ... blah blah blah.

This has nothing to do with any devices made by anyone else, but for the 
record:

1) I've never used an iphone let alone owned one.
2) Every Nokia I've owned has worked flawlessly.
3) Never used a samsung let alone owned one.
4) Will never buy a Sony Ericsson phone again - Ever.

As the 02 goes into production we know that the graphics will be limited, we 
might know the reasons, but that doesn't make is easier to swallow. It's also 
apparent that some of the lessons on the gta01 haven't made it to the 02, 
which is fair enough - but the 03 needs to see those fixed.

>
> Do you live on planet earth or some magical fairy land where you snap
> your fingers and you get everything instantly?

Mmm... I'm trying to work out if you just being an arse or you have a question 
in there. I'd like you to point out where I said anything about getting 
anything instantly, with a click of my fingers. 

>
> It sure sounds like you aren't interested in the "openness" of the moko
> but more of a consumer device ... yes / no?

Sure sounds like you just make a bunch of inferences and treat them as facts.

>
> I'm with you on the multitude of devices but sometimes you haveto try.
> I think there may be far more creative ways to do this, say have one
> phone with multiple addons so everyone is happy, but this too requires
> one to try.
>
> Rob

I'm not suggesting at all that no one should try. I'm suggesting that moving 
into the future may require bigger steps and not baby steps. If we have to 
wait for the GTA99 before a device that can compete with even a basic phone 
because of tiny modifications for each generation then I'm telling you 
straight up, I'm not buying one of each of the 99 devices and I wont be alone 
in that. 

-- 

Andy / ScaredyCat


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Re: Free Runner price vs iphone 3G price

[john]

Are you sure about that? According to Engadget [1] you will have to
activate the contract in shop which seems to suggest a pretty bum deal
if you plan on then unlocking it and selling it at $200. If you do I
will buy one from you at that price ;)

http://www.engadget.com/2008/06/09/iphone-3g-purchase-and-activation-will-be-in-store-only/

2008/6/10 Jorge . <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>:
[snip]
>
> Of course, thats why I want a FreeRunner!! but in the next months surely you 
> can buy an unlocked iPhone 3G on ebay or the chinatown for $200 USD, and it 
> affects the sales of FreeRunner, remember that GT02 is designed for mass 
> production, not only for geeks like us who love free software
>
>
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Re: QVGA V/s VGA for GTA03 (was something about yummy CPU-GPU combos!)

[Flemming Richter Mikkelsen]

On 6/10/08, The Rasterman Carsten Haitzler <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
> On Mon, 9 Jun 2008 19:10:22 +0200 "Flemming Richter Mikkelsen"
> <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> babbled:
>
> > On 6/9/08, The Rasterman Carsten Haitzler <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
> > [...]
> > > an 80x24 terminal is possible to make it readable @ qvga - if we allow
> > > scrolling. (and possible in landscape with an ultra-tiny 4-pixel wide 
> > > font -
> > > possible (3 pixels for text, 1 for space). not very nice though.
> >
> > How can u separate @, #, $, S, %, æ, ø, o, etc,  when only using 3 pixels?
> > 5 pix + 1 pix space is a minimum for good reading, unless some chars
> > take more space than others.
>
> you make little shapeless blobs of the chars :) you can tell the difference
> (though it's a terminal - if you start going into intl. chars like æ etc. imho
> you are exiting the vt100 world - you could argue that you can't read 魚 in a
> 3 pixel (+ 1 space) font either... so i draw the line at basic ascii for a
> terminal.

Well, 'æ' can be converted to 'ae' :)
>
> nb - your chars just become tall (3x7). eg:
>
> %
>
> #
>  #
>  #
> #
>  #
>
>
> S
>
>  ##
> #
>  #
>  #
> ##
>
> s
>
>
>  ##
> ##
>  ##
> ##
>
> $
>  #
>  ##
> ##
>  #
>  ##
> ##
>  #
> @
>  ##
> # #
> ###
> ###
> ###
> #
>  ##
> #
> # #
> # #
> ###
> # #
> ###
> # #
> # #
> o
>
>
>  #
> # #
> # #
>  #

Thanks:)

I tried to zoom this down (font size 4) and it was not that bad. But I
think this needs a little "getting used to".

Anyway, I am not against QVGA as long as this can increase the
battery time and decrease the phone size over time (to something
no bigger than a credit card:).

So everyone has their own idea of how it should be. This is good,
but not every wishes can come true. But please have a look at
the neonode [1]. It runs windows mobile. It is terrible as it suffers
with a lot of bugs, but looks cool on the video.
It has a 2,0" LCD @ 176x220 pixels.

[1] http://www.neonode.com/en-us/products/n2/introduction/watch-the-video/
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Re: No 3G for GTA03, 2G/EDGE only?

[ian douglas]

As an aside, when comparing 2G and 3G:

Even according to Apple, the new iPhone 3G model will get up to 10 hours 
of talk time on 2G but half as long (5 hours) in 3G mode.

I'd love to learn more about how voice quality differs between 2G and 3G 
-- if a future GTA device gets 3G capability, I'd probably want to limit 
my calling to 2G but switch to 3G for data, if that'd even be possible.

-id


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Re: comparing Apples and Oranges $199 iPhone Freerunner GTA02

[ian douglas]

Robin Paulson wrote:
> plus, can the iphone use usb in host mode? can i plug in a usb flash
> drive, or an external modem?


 From what I'm seeing on the specs page, the iPhone doesn't have any 
sort of USB plug on it ... so unless they have custom plugs to 
interchange between their 30-pin connector an a USB device, it looks 
like the Freerunner has a very big advantage for connecting external 
devices.

-id

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Re: Free Runner price vs iphone 3G price

[ian douglas]

Greg Bonett wrote:
> Don't forget you've always got the option to use the Freerunner without a
> voice/data plan at all if you don't mind only using VOIP in Wifi networks.
>  Then its a bargain!


Excellent point, Greg!

(I don't recall if the new iPhone has WiFi to do VoIP calls)

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Re: Free Runner price vs iphone 3G price

[Robert Taylor]

ian douglas wrote:
>
> Exactly.
>
> Whether you get the iPhone, a Freerunner, a Nokia, a Samsung, 
> whatever... you still need to pay for the cellular service.
>
> Yes, it's cheaper if you buy pay-as-you-go service, and yes, if you buy 
> the 'locked' iPhone (retail box from AT&T) you *must* buy into a contract.
>   
Sorry, to clarify.

To clear up my previous post you are comparing to different things:

A $600 SUBSIDIZED phone on a 2 year contract ($200 up front cost to 
subscriber) VS a $200 moko UNSUBSIDIZED phone PLUS a 2 year contract.

Of course they are bloody the same price up front, THE MOKO ISN'T 
SUBSIDIZED.

Please, compare equal things.

If you want to compare a subsidized iPhone then compare a subsidized 
moko which will be free with any reasonable access plan.

The moko is cheaper PERIOD and you won't be getting the new iPhones on 
ebay for 200 quid because YOU CAN'T BUY THEM WITHOUT A CONTRACT.

If you want to buy a $600 dollar subsidized phone, fine go ahead.  Why 
are you posting nonsense here?

Goddamn.  You guys make it really hard not to flame everyone on such 
simple calculations.

Rob

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Re: Free Runner price vs iphone 3G price

[ian douglas]

Jorge . wrote:
> No doubt, but you can buy unlocked iPhones on many places, including internet 
> and they dont cost $960

You're right, an unlocked iPhone will likely cost more than $199 (for 
the 8GB model), but you still need to have the data/voice plan. If *all* 
you're comparing is the cost of the phone hardware, then you'd have to 
find out how much an iPhone actually costs AT&T to purchase from Apple.

We're all arguing the same thing, just from different perspectives.

At the end of the day, you still need to buy voice/data service, whether 
you buy a Freerunner or iPhone. Since, from the sounds of it, you cannot 
(yet) buy the iPhone on a pay-as-you-go service, it's likely that the 
Freerunner will be a cheaper alternative, but ONLY when using a 
pay-as-you-go service. (at least here in the US)

But if you're going to buy into a voice/data plan, you're going to 
ultimately spend more cash on the Freerunner:

For example, I pay $39.99/month for 450 daytime minutes and 5000 
evening/weekend minutes every month. I pay an additional $39.99 per 
month for an unlimited data plan. My total monthly cost is $79.98 plus 
taxes and fees, so let's round it up to $90 per month. Over the course 
of two years, my $90/month totals $2,160.

If I buy an iPhone, my total cost after two years is $199 plus $2160, or 
$2359.
If I buy a Freerunner, my total cost after two years is $399 plus $2160, 
or $2558. If I manage to get in on a group sale, my total cost after two 
years drops $30.

So if you plan to get on a monthly voice/data plan with AT&T here in the 
USA, yes, the iPhone will be cheaper after a two year period is over.

Of course, if you start buying iPhone apps from iTunes over the two year 
period, then the iPhone could quickly become much more expensive than 
the Freerunner.

My point in the last few Emails is that the extra $200 (or $170 on a 
group sale), is worth it to me to have a completely unlocked phone where 
I can write and manage my own applications, have industry-accepted 
open-source programs ported to run on the Freerunner, have those 
applications for free, etc.

-id


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Re: Free Runner price vs iphone 3G price

[Robert Taylor]

Jorge . wrote:
> No doubt, but you can buy unlocked iPhones on many places, including internet 
> and they dont cost $960
>  
>   
Thats ONLY because you can buy an iPhone right now WITHOUT a contract. 

You won't be getting the same phoen pricing with the new iPhone, that is 
guaranteed - to break a contract you will pay the penalty which will be 
greater than the iPhone is worth to begin with.

You aren't comparing apples to apples still.

- Rob

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Re: comparing Apples and Oranges $199 iPhone Freerunner GTA02

[Robin Paulson]

2008/6/10 Ron K. Jeffries <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>:
>
> [I trust this will not initiate a flame war.] Please?
>
> iPhone v2 announced today. I'd like to understand
> on a hardware basis ONLY (I grok the value of
> free and open source) how does
> the entry level $199 iPhone with 4GB
> compare with Freerunner GTA02.
>
> where I get lost is how much RAM iPhone
> has vs Freerunner. I realize I can buy

i remember reading somewhere that the iphone's os can't run multiple
applications at once - sorry no source for this. did i get this right,
if i did, that's a major bonus to om/freerunner?

plus, can the iphone use usb in host mode? can i plug in a usb flash
drive, or an external modem?

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Re: Click Feedback?

[Michael 'Mickey' Lauer]

On Tuesday 10 June 2008 19:29:26 Asheesh Laroia wrote:
> On Tue, 10 Jun 2008, Michael 'Mickey' Lauer wrote:
> > Hi guys,
> >
> > we have been shipping pulseaudio (which is quite a CPU hog on embedded
> > systems) on our rootfs for quite a while now. The main reason not to use
> > alsa directly was because of mixing, since alsa dmix absolutely does not
> > cut it.
>
> Is it a CPU hog even when the sounds are all the same frequency and no
> resampling has to be done?

Yes, it is. It appears to be happily mixing and resampling zero's, if idle. 
And automatic module unloading on idle just got deprecated...

:M:

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Re: QVGA V/s VGA for GTA03 - product management, features & assumptions

[Mikko Rauhala]

ti, 2008-06-10 kello 14:59 -0400, Ken Young kirjoitti:
> > but surely that's just a result of the current buzz - is UI animation
> > really a *necessity* in the long-term (or medium-term) future of the
> > mobile phone market?
> 
> This is especially true because if the GTA03 tries to be an iPhone
> clone, it will be at best a half-assed iPhone clone. 

I don't usually do "me, too"s, but I'll make an exception. This
no-nonsense observation warrants attention from the OM powers that be.

Indeed if you try to take on the iPhone where its strengths lie at this
point, you will fail. Freedom and openness have their own strengths.
Concentrate there until you have the resources to spread a wider net
properly.

-- 
Mikko Rauhala   - [EMAIL PROTECTED] - http://www.iki.fi/mjr/>
Transhumanist   - WTA member - http://www.transhumanism.org/>
Singularitarian - SIAI supporter - http://www.singinst.org/>




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RE: Free Runner price vs iphone 3G price - Things clear

[Jorge .]

Hello,

This post is going further my expectations :) so, lets put the things in order:

1) FreeRunner and its freedom is the best, so we dont need an argue about the 
good reasons to buy one :)

2) In countries where you have to sign a two year contract, the iPhone 3G will 
be more expensive at the end, but this is not the situation of everyone.

3) Apple will say all time that you will have to sign a contract to get an 
iPhone, but in the reality they do nothing to stop people unlocking phones and 
selling them without AT&T contracts around the world (check ebay before telling 
again you have to sign a contract!!!), because they get money for that phones 
anyway. So I expect iPhones 3G being sold for $199 USD without any contract 
around the world, and for most people does not matter if this is legal or not. 

4) FreeRunner is a product, and need sales to survive. I will buy a Freerunner 
instead an iPhone because i want a free phone, but many people would prefer to 
buy an unlocked-hacked-nocontract iPhone on ebay for $199 than an OpenMoko for 
$399. am I clear enough?

furthermore the freedom, there is a war for the smartphones market and a 
freephone have to be competitive  in price, not only in quality and philosophy. 


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Re: comparing Apples and Oranges $199 iPhone Freerunner GTA02

[Flemming Richter Mikkelsen]

On 6/10/08, Ron K. Jeffries <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
[...]
> the two smart phones are aprox equal on
> -- wi-fi
But with limited usability on iPhone
> -- accelerometer
But with limited usability on iPhone
> -- bluetooth
But with limited usability on iPhone

E.g. you cannot use VoIP with iPhone, etc, etc

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Re: No 3G for GTA03, 2G/EDGE only?

[Bastian Muck]

-BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE-
Hash: SHA1
 
[EMAIL PROTECTED] schrieb:
| On Tuesday 10 June 2008 13:46:59 Justyn Butler wrote:
|> 2008/6/10 The Rasterman Carsten Haitzler <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>:
|>> i'd love a better cpu - better memory bus and much more. right now the
|>> only thing we have is gta03 - same cpu as freerunner etc etc. just
|>> different gsm subsystem (2g/edge) and no glamo (dumb 2442 fb), new case,
|>> added camera.
|> Hi,
|>
|> Maybe this was a typo, but are you saying that the current plan is to
|> ditch the existing GSM subsystem yet replace it with a modem that
|> can't even handle 3G?
|
| In fact 2G/Edge is really fast (more like standard ADSL speeds over 
here in
| Europe).
I don't know where you come from, but I have 16 mbit over here (adsl) 
and in Big Cities you can get vdsl with 25 or 50 mbit.
|
| Also latency is the real pain for Cellurar communication.
|
| CU
| W
|> That sounds crazy!
|>
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|
|
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Re: Click Feedback?

[Piotr Duda]

so do I, but not on mine gta01...
please remember that this is touch only phone and these feedback sounds
are a must here...

Piotr

Alexander Köb pisze:
> hi Mickey,
> 
>   click sound is normally the first thing I deactivate when I get a new
> phone that uses this.
> 
> thanks for asking BTW.
> 
> have fun
> k.
> 
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> 

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Re: GTA03: New case? Bigger screen!

[Mohamed Hazem]

I couldn't agree more.

On Tue, Jun 10, 2008 at 7:02 PM, Ortwin Regel <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
> There has been all this fruitless talk about resolution. Well, what is
> really limiting the Neo's screen right now is not resolution
> (obviously), not speed (at least not on the GTA01, no idea how messed
> up the 02 situation is. I'd guess it's faster most of the time.) but
> size! If the GTA03 get's a new case design, please consider making the
> screen twice as big! Then we are finally at a size were
> two-thumb-typing starts to make sense and even people with bad eye
> sight can benefit from the high resolution (although I'm not convinced
> that second point is a positive one... <_<). The device wouldn't even
> have to be bigger for this because so much space was wasted in the
> original Neo design. The only handheld I have owned where the screen
> could be called big enough was the Tapwave Zodiac (RIP). If you shave
> off the gaming controls and make it a little thicker, you get a very
> decent phone.
> Also, I suggest concentrating more on the horizontal usage. For
> example, bring the stereo speakers back but add one below and one
> above the display so that they are left and right in landscape. You
> can get a pretty good stereo effect at that distance.
>
> Ortwin
>
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Re: Free Runner price vs iphone 3G price

[Greg Bonett]

>
> ... and per my last Email, the lack of subsidies for the Freerunner,
> where you still need a voice/data contract, actually costs more.
>
> But the extra cost is worth the freedom of doing whatever I want with my
> Freerunner.
>
> -id

Don't forget you've always got the option to use the Freerunner without a
voice/data plan at all if you don't mind only using VOIP in Wifi networks.
 Then its a bargain!

-Greg


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Re: Free Runner price vs iphone 3G price

[Marcus Bauer]

On Tue, 2008-06-10 at 13:15 -0700, Lowell Higley wrote:

> In this case, the iPhone is way more expensive than an iPhone.
 ^^^

  I always knew there is some conspiracy going on with Apple ;-p




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Re: Free Runner price vs iphone 3G price

[ian douglas]

Lowell Higley wrote:
> I think what Ian is trying to say is that contract or not, you still 
> have to pay for your phone service and data service.

Exactly.

Whether you get the iPhone, a Freerunner, a Nokia, a Samsung, 
whatever... you still need to pay for the cellular service.

Yes, it's cheaper if you buy pay-as-you-go service, and yes, if you buy 
the 'locked' iPhone (retail box from AT&T) you *must* buy into a contract.

My point was basically that if you want to use a lot of voice/data on 
the Freerunner, you're probably going to spend the same dollar amount on 
the voice/data plan as you would with the iPhone, so in that case, yes, 
the iPhone is cheaper.

If you can manage everything you do only on pay-as-you-go service, then 
it's possible that the Freerunner will be cheaper after two years.

-id

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Re: QVGA V/s VGA for GTA03 - product management, features & assumptions

[Raanan Elefant]

I third this (if that is even how you say it...)


- Original Message 
From: Robert Taylor <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
To: List for Openmoko community discussion 
Sent: Tuesday, June 10, 2008 10:49:21 PM
Subject: Re: QVGA V/s VGA for GTA03 - product management, features & assumptions

Ortwin Regel wrote:
>>
>> Reading these posts of the last few days it has just occurred to me
>> that it's not Carsten we should be beating up on here.
>> Who the heck asked for translucency and flashy animations?
>>
>> Management seem to be asking for this "alpha" bleeding rubbish, and
>> it seems to me that we users need to be telling management that we
>> don't care a heck for it.
>>
>> Sure, I know the iPhone does this now, but that doesn't mean Openmoko
>> has to do it. Do we really want Openmoko to be just another iPhone
>> clone? I know we see a fair number of posts on here about the iPhone,
>> but surely that's just a result of the current buzz - is UI animation
>> really a *necessity* in the long-term (or medium-term) future of the
>> mobile phone market?
>>
>> DISCLAIMER: I haven't used an iPhone, and I'm not terribly interested
>> in it. I do use a Mac as my main desktop, but that's not for the
>> animation, it's because I want something that "just works" when I sit
>> down at my computer. All us Mac fans found Expose to be a *massive*
>> UI improvement when it was released, but that's because virtual
>> desktops have always been rubbish on a Mac - with so many windows on
>> a single desktop *some* way of finding the bottom-most one was
>> required. The other day I was talking to a Linux developer who turned
>> off compiz on his desktop because it slowed down his productivity -
>> you simply don't need Expose if you have virtual desktops (which
>> admittedly are not suitable for my granny).
>>
>> It seems to me that, whilst the iPhone's animation may "wow" people,
>> what really distinguishes the iPhone is the same attention to UI
>> simplicity that Apple have always brought to their products. It does
>> a FEW things amazingly well, and that's where it separates itself
>> from the majority of phones on the market, none of which *quite* suit
>> the mass-market of users. Most users don't want to understand the
>> filesystem on their mobile phone, so Apple do away with it; Apple
>> have made it spectacularly easy (so much so that one must include in
>> the discussion the word "intuitive") to email a photo taken on the
>> camera or grabbed from a webpage, but they make it impossible to
>> email attachments under many other circumstances. The majority of
>> users don't want to copy & paste text on their mobile phones, so
>> Apple just got rid of it - other manufacturers "muddy up" the phones
>> they aim at girls and little old ladies (excuse me) by including the
>> ability to copy & paste; Apple have realised that only a minority of
>> business-phone users want or need that.
>>
>> The Neo & Freerunner have both been "smartphones", and that's surely
>> the interest that draws Linux users to this list. We want to be able
>> to shell into our unix servers, read PDFs and so on. The idea of an
>> open phone fires our imagination because we can integrate our
>> contacts from our LDAP servers and our diary with an iCal server, we
>> can do whatever the heck we want with Openmoko - we want to ADD
>> features, not remove them.
>>
>> In the context of that, does animation and transparency matter? Heck
>> no! We want a phone that displays text & icons on the screen, and as
>> long as the phone does that quick enough, we don't want you wasting
>> resources on trying to make the "experience" more flashy.
>>
>> There has been mention in these threads about the screen requirements
>> of smaller phones. I can only conclude from this that FIC are
>> planning to leverage their experience in building smartphone hardware
>> in order to break into to the larger market of small "girlie" and
>> "soccer mom" phones. Fine, but please don't do this at the expense of
>> your smartphone market. Honestly, I don't see how you can do this
>> well, without castrating your power-phone offerings.
>>
>> Parts of this conversation have focussed on making a "use case" for
>> VGA screens, but please, FIC management, make a use case for
>> transparency and flashy animations before having Carsten work on it.
>> Whilst I was writing an Apple spam arrived here, promoting today's
>> new iPhone announcement - I clicked on the link to iSteve's
>> presentation. The "enterprise" take-up from Fortune 500 companies was
>> surely impressive, but this leverage is because of Exchange-
>> compatibility and all the features that OS X gives to the iPhone for
>> free, not the flashy animations. This is where Openmoko can compete.
>>
>> I could write a lot, LOT more here,
>>
>> Stroller.
>>
>>
I second this.

Rob

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Re: GTA - Two models? Was: GTA03: New case? Bigger screen!

[Ortwin Regel]

I wonder: Might it be useful/possible to add a connector for Bug
modules to a future Openmoko phone?

On 6/10/08, Robert Taylor <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
> Roland Häder wrote:
>> My suggestion here is that OpenMoko may design another phone - if the
>> market
>> asks for this:
>>
>> - An OpenMoko for younger people who need the gaming controls Ortwin is
>> mentioning as subject for removal.
>>
>> - Another OpenMoko for professionals/business/older people without the
>> gameing
>> controls but bigger screen. Maybe there is one available? Surely the
>> software
>> shipped with this OpenMoko doesn't need include software which requires
>> the
>> gaming controls.
>>
>> Any further ideas? :)
>>
>> Roland
>>
>>
> Yes.  I propose a modular approach.  1 phone many external similar to
> this idea: http://www.icontrolpad.com/
>
> Additionally, there is a certain cool factor to having a single unit but
> many docking stations if done right, for example:
>
> Quick preview:  http://www.linuxdevices.com/news/NS3871478989.html
>
> Their overbearing website:  http://www.buglabs.net/products
>
> Buglabs is doing something really cool, but you gotta code in java and
> it doesn't fit into a pocket (well it does fit in a really big pocket).
>
> It's pretty clear Mokos core group of users are very demanding, and
> something like that would allow for everyone to be happy.
>
> However, why I really think this could be a really great approach for
> the moko is the 'Hey Cool!' factor.
>
> Can you picture the conversation when you meet up with  a buddy "hey
> whats that on your moko? oh it's my new gamepod.  COL!  can i try it
> on my moko?  sure  ... *CLICK*  ... here you go.   COOL!"
>
> It also reduces the dev costs for moko, it allows it to remain a
> smartphone and not move from that niche, reduces the number of formats
> that people will be demanding the moko be made in and will start to
> establish a hardware addon ecosystem beyond what is already being developed.
>
> What the moko manufacturers then can pull is a NIKE.  Instead of relying
> purely on sales of the moko, they can turn them selves into an R&D and
> marketing company and not only produce their own hardware if they want
> to, but also licence officially supported modules and addons to control
> quality and get a cut of each sale.
>
> Also when usb3 comes along you can offload all sorts of stuff to that,
> such as gfx co-porcessing if you want so all of a sudden you can get ati
> into the picture with their completely documented processors and really
> start something interesting.
>
>
> Just some brianstorming ...
>
> Rob
>
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Re: GTA - Two models? Was: GTA03: New case? Bigger screen!

[Roland Häder]

Ah, thanks for making it clear. :)

On Tuesday, 10. June 2008, Ortwin Regel wrote:
> For the record: I was talking about the gaming controls of my Tapwave
> Zodiac. I realize that this was probably not all that clear from the
> context and apologize.


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RE: Free Runner price vs iphone 3G price

[Jorge .]

> Granted, the Apple and AT&T partnership greatly subsidizes the cost, 
> because of the $960 ($40/mo unlimited data plan for 2 yrs) to $2400 
> ($100/mo unlimited voice/data for 2 yrs) that you'd spend with AT&T also 
> helps cover the hidden cost of the hardware.

No doubt, but you can buy unlocked iPhones on many places, including internet 
and they dont cost $960
 
> What you're paying the extra money for, for the Freerunner, is the 
> freedom of doing whatever you want with your phone. Sure, the iPhone has 
> their SDK released, but all applications still have to go through Apple 
> to operate on your phone -- I don't know if the SDK even allows you to 
> build an application just for your own iPhone to test it. Also, their 
> mobile OS is closed source -- you have no access to hack or tweak it to 
> do *exactly* what you want it to. You can't change the applications that 
> come with the phone, you can't do a lot of things. 

Of course, thats why I want a FreeRunner!! but in the next months surely you 
can buy an unlocked iPhone 3G on ebay or the chinatown for $200 USD, and it 
affects the sales of FreeRunner, remember that GT02 is designed for mass 
production, not only for geeks like us who love free software


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Re: GTA03: New case? Bigger screen!

[Flemming Richter Mikkelsen]

On 6/10/08, Robert Taylor <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
> Ortwin Regel wrote:
> > There has been all this fruitless talk about resolution. Well, what is
> > really limiting the Neo's screen right now is not resolution
> > (obviously), not speed (at least not on the GTA01, no idea how messed
> > up the 02 situation is. I'd guess it's faster most of the time.) but
> > size! If the GTA03 get's a new case design, please consider making the
> > screen twice as big! Then we are finally at a size were
> > two-thumb-typing starts to make sense and even people with bad eye
> > sight can benefit from the high resolution (although I'm not convinced
> > that second point is a positive one... <_<). The device wouldn't even
> > have to be bigger for this because so much space was wasted in the
> > original Neo design. The only handheld I have owned where the screen
> > could be called big enough was the Tapwave Zodiac (RIP). If you shave
> > off the gaming controls and make it a little thicker, you get a very
> > decent phone.
> > Also, I suggest concentrating more on the horizontal usage. For
> > example, bring the stereo speakers back but add one below and one
> > above the display so that they are left and right in landscape. You
> > can get a pretty good stereo effect at that distance.

And I want it half the size:)
A tiny, nice phone with QVGA, not a notebook. If you want the double size,
why not just buy an eeepc?

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Re: No 3G for GTA03, 2G/EDGE only?

[Robert Taylor]

Robert Taylor wrote:
> Do you live on planet earth or some magical fairy land where you snap
> your fingers and you get everything instantly?
>
> It sure sounds like you aren't interested in the "openness" of the moko 
> but more of a consumer device ... yes / no?
>
> I'm with you on the multitude of devices but sometimes you haveto try.  
> I think there may be far more creative ways to do this, say have one 
> phone with multiple addons so everyone is happy, but this too requires 
> one to try.
>
> Rob
>   
A quick apology for this post.

I don't normally flame - I was thinking it but I didn't self edit.

Sorry about that. 

It's just that the moko is such a wonderful opportunity for everyone, it 
bugs me that we are looking for reasons not to make it a success 
(granted negatives are as important to understand as the positives).

I think there is room for comparing the moko to whatever is on the 
marketplace, but only marginally. 

What we haveto do is OUT THINK the markeplace NOT keep up with the 
Joneses. 

- Robert

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Re: No 3G for GTA03, 2G/EDGE only?

[thomasg]

On Tue, Jun 10, 2008 at 3:12 PM, <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:

> In fact 2G/Edge is really fast (more like standard ADSL speeds over here in
> Europe).


You're kidding, right?
EDGE maxes out at about 470 kbps - if you get a full channel (8 timeslots)
for yourself.
In most GSM networks one of the timeslots is reserved for signalling (BCCH)
so 7 staying (~420 kbps).
Even this is only true if you get coding scheme 9. But then you'd have to
have a device that supports EDGE at this rates.
Most devices only support up to ~250 kbps (mostly less). Under real life
conditions you'll get about 120 to 200 kbps as best rates.
In germany DSL starts at 384 kbps if the landline is very long. The slowest
available option normally is 1000 kbps. The average should be between 3000
and 6000 kbps. 16000 kbps are available in most areas. Max is at 25000 or
5 in some cities.
There are other countries like sweden where much higher rates are common.


>
> Also latency is the real pain for Cellurar communication.
>
> CU
> W
> >
> > That sounds crazy!
> >
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Re: Free Runner price vs iphone 3G price

[Lowell Higley]

I think what Ian is trying to say is that contract or not, you still have to
pay for your phone service and data service.  So if you spend US$50/mo on a
data plan, it does come out to be more expensive with the FreeRunner if and
*only if* you plan to use the phone for two years.  if you plan on ditching
it in a year, then the FreeRunner is much cheaper (you have that contract
buy out fee).

Thankfully, I have a pay as go SIM card that allows me to use GPRS.  I pay
about 10 Euros (US$15) a month with my current total usage (voice and
data).  Somehow I see that going way up when I get the FreeRunner just with
the data I'll be using.  I pay roughly 4 Euro Cents per 10kb.  In this case,
the iPhone is way more expensive than an iPhone.

On Tue, Jun 10, 2008 at 12:05 PM, Dave O'Connor <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:

>
> You've forgotten about the extra grand and a half in contract charges.
> (that's just in the US, I hate to think what they'll be like here in
> Canada).
>
> Seems inexpensive to me :)
>
> On Tue, 10 Jun 2008, Jorge . wrote:
>
> >
> > Hello everyone,
> >
> > I dont pretend to start a flamewar of "FreeRunner vs iPhone". Everyone
> knows their advantages and disadvantages and at least for me the main reason
> to buy an openmoko is the freedom.
> >
> > But the new iPhone 3G price was announced, and the 8 Gigas version will
> cost only $199 USD and it automatically makes the OpenMoko phone expensive,
> because they have similar characteristics... this could discourage many
> possible buyers, for purely economical reasons.
> >
> > I dont know if the FreeRunner price can be changed at this moment, but
> now the FreeRunner is less competitive than the iPhone in terms of price.
> >
> >
> > Best wishes
> >
> >
> >
> > _
> > Stop squinting -- view your photos on your TV.  Learn more.
> >
> http://www.microsoft.com/windows/digitallife/default.mspx?deepLink=photos
> > ___
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> > community@lists.openmoko.org
> > http://lists.openmoko.org/mailman/listinfo/community
> >
> >
>
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Re: Free Runner price vs iphone 3G price

[Federico Lorenzi]

On Tue, Jun 10, 2008 at 9:19 PM, Jorge . <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
>
>> *sigh*
>> The 3G iPhone does not cost $199. It costs $199 when subsidized
>> through a 2 year AT&T contract. Thats like saying my Nokia E51 costs
>> nothing, because I got it free with a 2 year contract.
>>
>
> Just look Ebay, amazon, etc...  you can buy unlocked iPhones for almost the 
> price they have with AT&T, in fact there is no AT&T in my country, an i could 
> buy one on many shops in the downtown (dont misunderstand me, i want the 
> FreeRunner!!).
>
> I am sure it will happen again with the iPhone 3G
No, it won't. When you buy a 3G iPhone, you will actually have to take
out a contract there and then at the Apple store. It's not like how it
was before when anyone could buy it, and just bypass activation. They
will not sell you an iPhone unless you take out a contract.

Cheers,
Federico

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Re: Free Runner price vs iphone 3G price

[Robert Taylor]

Jorge . wrote:
> Just look Ebay, amazon, etc...  you can buy unlocked iPhones for almost the 
> price they have with AT&T, in fact there is no AT&T in my country, an i could 
> buy one on many shops in the downtown (dont misunderstand me, i want the 
> FreeRunner!!).
>
> I am sure it will happen again with the iPhone 3G
> _
>   
And this will surely happen with the Moko too.  So what's your point?

Rob

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Re: No 3G for GTA03, 2G/EDGE only?

[Robert Taylor]

Andy Powell wrote:
>
> At some point we're going to start explaining to the folks at OM that we 
> can't 
> actually afford to buy every model they produce to help fund this 
> evolution...  I really don't want to have a collection of interesting but 
> ultimately useless devices - Let's face it the gta01 has issues the gta02 has 
> issues, perhaps it *is* time for a revolution...
>
>   
Let's face it, the iPhone has issues, Nokias have issues, Samsung has 
issues ... blah blah blah.

Do you live on planet earth or some magical fairy land where you snap 
your fingers and you get everything instantly?

It sure sounds like you aren't interested in the "openness" of the moko 
but more of a consumer device ... yes / no?

I'm with you on the multitude of devices but sometimes you haveto try.  
I think there may be far more creative ways to do this, say have one 
phone with multiple addons so everyone is happy, but this too requires 
one to try.

Rob

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Re: regarding the 'data security' thread recently

[Ian Darwin]

> Having said that, why wait for an incoming text?
> Why not just have the phone wipe itself when the SIM card changes?

Not by default!! People that travel between North America and Europe 
often maintain two (or more!!) SIMs to take advantage of cheaper calling 
in different {countries,continents} by having a local number.

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Re: Click Feedback?

[Andy Selby]

>> This means no longer being able to mix sounds, but rather stick them
>> into a queue and play them sequentially.

> Someone else has already mentioned SMS notification whilst listening
> to music, but also my GPS concept is affected. If a driver is
> approaching an accident blackspot he cannot afford for notification
> of that to be queued to play after some other application is finished.

I think the current app that is using alsa would be stopped then the
notifcation sound will play, they just mean (IMHO) that no two sounds
can play at the same time.
+1 for not having feeedback click if it can streamline the software, Mickey

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Re: QVGA V/s VGA for GTA03 - product management, features & assumptions

[Robert Taylor]

Ken Young wrote:
>   
> This is especially true because if the GTA03 tries to be an iPhone
> clone, it will be at best a half-assed iPhone clone.   The hardware just
> isn't competitive with an iPhone's.   If the GTA03 has QVGA, will it have
> fast 3G networking?   No.   Will it have a state-of-the-art SoC?   No.
> That's not to say the GTA03 will be a bad device.   There's a lot
> of very exciting things you can do with the Freerunner hardware.   But
> it's just stupid to try to imitate the slick, largely useless, graphics
> goodies found on high-end video feature phones.   It is also a little
> alarming to hear that alpha blending is even being discussed by corporate
> OM personnel, when you consider the state of the current OM software stack.
>
> I don't think OM should target consumers who care about watching videos
> and having slick graphics at all.   They should go after uses of Palm
> and RIM products, who will be attracted to a rich ecosystem of useful
> 3rd party applications, and a phone geared towards letting professional
> people get some work done.   There are not nearly so many of those
> people as there are Apple fanboys, but they are willing to part with
> serious money to get the best phone for their work and hobbies.
>
> Think Differently!
>--
>
> Ken Young
>
>   
I second this as well.

I posted an email with some ideas / brainstorming about how we can take 
the phone idea and extend it with some lateral thinking.

There is A LOT of room to innovate and set the moko appart from the 
competition.

I think what the project needs to do is OUT THINK the competition, not 
COPY the competition.

Look, Microsoft cannot compete with the Apple brand ... why try and fail 
at this? 

Let's not follow behind iSteve (tm) and beast in Redmond.  I think we 
can take this mobile device thing and take it in a totally different 
direction and really set it apart.

Rob

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Re: QVGA V/s VGA for GTA03 - product management, features & assumptions

[Robert Taylor]

Ortwin Regel wrote:
>>
>> Reading these posts of the last few days it has just occurred to me
>> that it's not Carsten we should be beating up on here.
>> Who the heck asked for translucency and flashy animations?
>>
>> Management seem to be asking for this "alpha" bleeding rubbish, and
>> it seems to me that we users need to be telling management that we
>> don't care a heck for it.
>>
>> Sure, I know the iPhone does this now, but that doesn't mean Openmoko
>> has to do it. Do we really want Openmoko to be just another iPhone
>> clone? I know we see a fair number of posts on here about the iPhone,
>> but surely that's just a result of the current buzz - is UI animation
>> really a *necessity* in the long-term (or medium-term) future of the
>> mobile phone market?
>>
>> DISCLAIMER: I haven't used an iPhone, and I'm not terribly interested
>> in it. I do use a Mac as my main desktop, but that's not for the
>> animation, it's because I want something that "just works" when I sit
>> down at my computer. All us Mac fans found Expose to be a *massive*
>> UI improvement when it was released, but that's because virtual
>> desktops have always been rubbish on a Mac - with so many windows on
>> a single desktop *some* way of finding the bottom-most one was
>> required. The other day I was talking to a Linux developer who turned
>> off compiz on his desktop because it slowed down his productivity -
>> you simply don't need Expose if you have virtual desktops (which
>> admittedly are not suitable for my granny).
>>
>> It seems to me that, whilst the iPhone's animation may "wow" people,
>> what really distinguishes the iPhone is the same attention to UI
>> simplicity that Apple have always brought to their products. It does
>> a FEW things amazingly well, and that's where it separates itself
>> from the majority of phones on the market, none of which *quite* suit
>> the mass-market of users. Most users don't want to understand the
>> filesystem on their mobile phone, so Apple do away with it; Apple
>> have made it spectacularly easy (so much so that one must include in
>> the discussion the word "intuitive") to email a photo taken on the
>> camera or grabbed from a webpage, but they make it impossible to
>> email attachments under many other circumstances. The majority of
>> users don't want to copy & paste text on their mobile phones, so
>> Apple just got rid of it - other manufacturers "muddy up" the phones
>> they aim at girls and little old ladies (excuse me) by including the
>> ability to copy & paste; Apple have realised that only a minority of
>> business-phone users want or need that.
>>
>> The Neo & Freerunner have both been "smartphones", and that's surely
>> the interest that draws Linux users to this list. We want to be able
>> to shell into our unix servers, read PDFs and so on. The idea of an
>> open phone fires our imagination because we can integrate our
>> contacts from our LDAP servers and our diary with an iCal server, we
>> can do whatever the heck we want with Openmoko - we want to ADD
>> features, not remove them.
>>
>> In the context of that, does animation and transparency matter? Heck
>> no! We want a phone that displays text & icons on the screen, and as
>> long as the phone does that quick enough, we don't want you wasting
>> resources on trying to make the "experience" more flashy.
>>
>> There has been mention in these threads about the screen requirements
>> of smaller phones. I can only conclude from this that FIC are
>> planning to leverage their experience in building smartphone hardware
>> in order to break into to the larger market of small "girlie" and
>> "soccer mom" phones. Fine, but please don't do this at the expense of
>> your smartphone market. Honestly, I don't see how you can do this
>> well, without castrating your power-phone offerings.
>>
>> Parts of this conversation have focussed on making a "use case" for
>> VGA screens, but please, FIC management, make a use case for
>> transparency and flashy animations before having Carsten work on it.
>> Whilst I was writing an Apple spam arrived here, promoting today's
>> new iPhone announcement - I clicked on the link to iSteve's
>> presentation. The "enterprise" take-up from Fortune 500 companies was
>> surely impressive, but this leverage is because of Exchange-
>> compatibility and all the features that OS X gives to the iPhone for
>> free, not the flashy animations. This is where Openmoko can compete.
>>
>> I could write a lot, LOT more here,
>>
>> Stroller.
>>
>> 
I second this.

Rob

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interface for people with very poor eyesight?

[joakim]

I'm investigating a phone for a person whos recently lost most of his
eyesight and thinking about the freerunner.

Does anyone have experience with phones for nearly blind people?

I'm considering the freerunner rather than a simple phone with very
large buttons for the following reasons:

- it can say whos calling
- gestures to accept/reject calls
- ebooks/radio can be streamed over wifi and gesture controlled
etc...

Of course the display would be nearly useless, except for the touch
area, so if its possible to buy freerunners with dead pixels cheaply,
I'm interested.

-- 
Joakim Verona


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Re: Free Runner price vs iphone 3G price

[Lally Singh]

On Tue, Jun 10, 2008 at 2:38 PM, Ortwin Regel <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
> There are cheaper contracts if you don't get a phone with them in
> Germany. No idea what the situation in the US is. (It's probably
> godawful... :-/) Personally, I use a prepaid SIM card so I pay no
> monthly fees at all. Much cheaper for me than any contract. So for me
> the price advantage over an iPhone is very real.
>

Good for you.  It's not the case for others.  I'm going to have a cell
phone for the next 2 years, and prepaid plans cost me plenty when I
add in things like text messaging and data.  Atop of that, my family
has >10,000 rollover minutes just sitting there.  For me, it'd be
$40/month to jump on that plan, and $200 for the phone.

The monthly fee is fairly constant, no matter where I go (and probably
higher outside of AT&T than in), and the 2 year contract is irrelevant
(I'll be using a phone for the next 2 yrs, and in the US a contract is
pretty standard), so it really does just come down to $200 vs whatever
another phone costs.

Sheesh.  We get it, we just don't care.

-- 
H. Lally Singh
Ph.D. Candidate, Computer Science
Virginia Tech

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Re: Free Runner price vs iphone 3G price

[john]

Yeh it is all relative to your country and usage pattern. In the UK
you can get a prepaid SIM with data capped at £1 per day. I don't need
a contract (I don't make many calls/sms) so the cost of the Freerunner
is a lot more attractive to me! Especially at it seems Apple will now
make you activate the phone on purchase eliminating cracking and
sticking in your prepaid SIM which is what many did with the current
model.

John.

2008/6/10 Ortwin Regel <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>:
> There are cheaper contracts if you don't get a phone with them in
> Germany. No idea what the situation in the US is. (It's probably
> godawful... :-/) Personally, I use a prepaid SIM card so I pay no
> monthly fees at all. Much cheaper for me than any contract. So for me
> the price advantage over an iPhone is very real.
>
> Ortwin
>
> On 6/10/08, ian douglas <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
>> Robert Taylor wrote:
>>> You pay through the nose for it because you HAVETO sign up for a 2 year
>>> contract minimum.
>>
>> Granted, the Apple and AT&T partnership greatly subsidizes the cost,
>> because of the $960 ($40/mo unlimited data plan for 2 yrs) to $2400
>> ($100/mo unlimited voice/data for 2 yrs) that you'd spend with AT&T also
>> helps cover the hidden cost of the hardware.
>>
>> And while I personally don't care much for the iPhone, you also have to
>> sign up for a voice/data plan to use the Freerunner... You're still
>> paying the $960-$2400 over two years, but there's not offset of cost of
>> the hardware to the consumer. The monthly fees you pay that doesn't pay
>> for the actual use of the cell network is 100% profit to AT&T instead of
>> going to Apple to help pay for the hardware.
>>
>> Same with TMobile, and I imagine any other carrier who offsets the price
>> of their phones to lock you into a contract.
>>
>> Just my $0.02.
>>
>> What you're paying the extra money for, for the Freerunner, is the
>> freedom of doing whatever you want with your phone. Sure, the iPhone has
>> their SDK released, but all applications still have to go through Apple
>> to operate on your phone -- I don't know if the SDK even allows you to
>> build an application just for your own iPhone to test it. Also, their
>> mobile OS is closed source -- you have no access to hack or tweak it to
>> do *exactly* what you want it to. You can't change the applications that
>> come with the phone, you can't do a lot of things. Sure, they have lots
>> of eye candy and some solid-looking applications, but once we as a
>> community port applications to the Freerunner hardware to run on
>> OpenMoko, we'll be leaps and bounds ahead of the iPhone software.
>>
>> That, to me, is worth the extra purchase price.
>>
>> -id
>>
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Re: GTA - Two models? Was: GTA03: New case? Bigger screen!

[Robert Taylor]

Roland Häder wrote:
> My suggestion here is that OpenMoko may design another phone - if the market 
> asks for this:
>
> - An OpenMoko for younger people who need the gaming controls Ortwin is 
> mentioning as subject for removal.
>
> - Another OpenMoko for professionals/business/older people without the 
> gameing 
> controls but bigger screen. Maybe there is one available? Surely the software 
> shipped with this OpenMoko doesn't need include software which requires the 
> gaming controls.
>
> Any further ideas? :)
>
> Roland
>
>   
Yes.  I propose a modular approach.  1 phone many external similar to 
this idea: http://www.icontrolpad.com/

Additionally, there is a certain cool factor to having a single unit but 
many docking stations if done right, for example:

Quick preview:  http://www.linuxdevices.com/news/NS3871478989.html

Their overbearing website:  http://www.buglabs.net/products

Buglabs is doing something really cool, but you gotta code in java and 
it doesn't fit into a pocket (well it does fit in a really big pocket).

It's pretty clear Mokos core group of users are very demanding, and 
something like that would allow for everyone to be happy. 

However, why I really think this could be a really great approach for 
the moko is the 'Hey Cool!' factor.

Can you picture the conversation when you meet up with  a buddy "hey 
whats that on your moko? oh it's my new gamepod.  COL!  can i try it 
on my moko?  sure  ... *CLICK*  ... here you go.   COOL!"

It also reduces the dev costs for moko, it allows it to remain a 
smartphone and not move from that niche, reduces the number of formats 
that people will be demanding the moko be made in and will start to 
establish a hardware addon ecosystem beyond what is already being developed.

What the moko manufacturers then can pull is a NIKE.  Instead of relying 
purely on sales of the moko, they can turn them selves into an R&D and 
marketing company and not only produce their own hardware if they want 
to, but also licence officially supported modules and addons to control 
quality and get a cut of each sale.

Also when usb3 comes along you can offload all sorts of stuff to that, 
such as gfx co-porcessing if you want so all of a sudden you can get ati 
into the picture with their completely documented processors and really 
start something interesting.


Just some brianstorming ...

Rob

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Re: GTA - Two models? Was: GTA03: New case? Bigger screen!

[JW]

On 10/06/2008, Ortwin Regel <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
>
>
>
> I think branching into multiple devices starts making sense with the
> switch to a new SoC



Trouble enough to produce one model :-)

. As it is, it looks like GTA03 is supposed to be
> the Neo camera edition.


Nope

Read mails elsewhere by Joerg and others
GTA03 = evolution
GTA04 = revolution
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Re: Free Runner price vs iphone 3G price

[Robert Taylor]

Ortwin Regel wrote:
> There are cheaper contracts if you don't get a phone with them in
> Germany. No idea what the situation in the US is. (It's probably
> godawful... :-/) Personally, I use a prepaid SIM card so I pay no
> monthly fees at all. Much cheaper for me than any contract. So for me
> the price advantage over an iPhone is very real.
>
> Ortwin
>
>   
Same here.  The iPhone is godawful expensive no matter how you slice it.

Rob

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Is openmoko-devel-image supported any more?

[Bobby Martin]

I tried to dfu burn a new image (well, an old image - the latest recommended
openmoko-devel-image) last night, then opkg install some standard stuff I've
been using.  Tangogps, several python packages, openmoko-keyboard, that sort
of thing.

The burning went fine, but after the opkg update & install, a reboot led to
a dead openmoko-today application.  When I manually run openmoko-today, I
get a pile of CRITICAL GLIBC messages and then apparently the dbus daemon is
dead.  I also note that the opkg for openmoko-keyboard appears to be gone.
I don't have access to ssh to my neo at work or I would get you useful
output rather than vague assertions of something wrong :-(

The real point of this message, though, is to ask: is openmoko-devel-image
still supported?

Thanks!
Bobby

-- 
If it doesn't make you smile, you're doing something wrong.
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RE: Free Runner price vs iphone 3G price

[Jorge .]

> *sigh*
> The 3G iPhone does not cost $199. It costs $199 when subsidized
> through a 2 year AT&T contract. Thats like saying my Nokia E51 costs
> nothing, because I got it free with a 2 year contract.
> 

Just look Ebay, amazon, etc...  you can buy unlocked iPhones for almost the 
price they have with AT&T, in fact there is no AT&T in my country, an i could 
buy one on many shops in the downtown (dont misunderstand me, i want the 
FreeRunner!!).

I am sure it will happen again with the iPhone 3G
_
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Re: QVGA V/s VGA for GTA03 - product management, features & assumptions

[Steven Milburn]

I have used an iPhone, my wife's.  The animations are pretty at first.
After a while, they're just annoying.  My wife gets impatient waiting for
windows to get out of the way so she can get on with what she's trying to
do.  What's really funny is that some times the phone will do all that neat
animation, and the window that shows up has no content.  You stare at an
empty contact list for as much as 3 seconds easily before it suddenly fills
up with names.

My wife may be an exception to the rule here.  She sometimes does data entry
at work and has the dialogs of her application memorized so she can type in
the fields much faster than the application can keep up.  When the keyboard
beeps, she'll sit back and take a sip of her beverage while the application
is popping dialogs up all over the place filling in what she typed.  It's
fun to watch.  (FWIW: the application is running over a slow network via
citrix, so it would take a lot to speed things up.  She's stopped asking)

With the touch screen UI, she can't use this approach.  She has to wait.

--Steve

On Tue, Jun 10, 2008 at 2:13 PM, Stroller <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:

> Reading these posts of the last few days it has just occurred to me
> that it's not Carsten we should be beating up on here.
> Who the heck asked for translucency and flashy animations?
>
> Management seem to be asking for this "alpha" bleeding rubbish, and
> it seems to me that we users need to be telling management that we
> don't care a heck for it.
>
> Sure, I know the iPhone does this now, but that doesn't mean Openmoko
> has to do it. Do we really want Openmoko to be just another iPhone
> clone? I know we see a fair number of posts on here about the iPhone,
> but surely that's just a result of the current buzz - is UI animation
> really a *necessity* in the long-term (or medium-term) future of the
> mobile phone market?
>
> DISCLAIMER: I haven't used an iPhone, and I'm not terribly interested
> in it.
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