Re: Jetbrains announce support for rust plugin, show them we want one too!
On Friday, August 11, 2017 08:13:07 SC via Digitalmars-d wrote: > On Wednesday, 9 August 2017 at 22:17:42 UTC, Jonathan M Davis > > Regardless, we're here because we want a quality language, not > > because we want a popular one. We just hope that those two > > things aren't mutually exclusive. > > i agree about quality part, but you mix two things, popularity > and the need of tooling > > the point of my post was to gather community in hope for better > tooling, not popularity > > having great tooling might increase popularity, but for me it'll > improve my productivity, and that's all i care about, popularity > is next, quality is already nice for me Good tooling is important, but it differs significantly from person to person which sets of tools matter or would be useful, and I think that to a great extent, the core developers have the tooling that they're looking for. I'm sure that if we had to come up with a list of things that we'd like to see improved with regards to tooling, we'd be able to, but something like IDE support? Most of us don't use or care about IDEs. Rather, we just use text editors like vim and emacs - or sublime. It does come up periodically that someone thinks that an IDE is critical to developing in D, but most of the folks who are involved enough to be contributing don't think that way. There are definitely some folks around here who care about IDEs, and there are several projects that bring D support to IDEs (such as Visual-D for Visual Studio), so I'm sure that some folks would care about whatever Jetbrains or anyone else is up to with IDEs and D, but most of us really don't care. If they have great D support, and that helps someone, then great. I don't think that you'll find anyone here who's against that, but most of us simply are not going to put time and effort into trying to improve IDE support or trying to get someone else to, because we wouldn't use any of it. So, feel free to point out what Jetbrains has done with regards to Rust and encourage anyone who cares to speak up and tell Jetbrains that they want something similar for D - having that sort of support certainly would not be detrimental to the D community - but a large percentage of the folks around here really aren't going to care, because it wouldn't help them at all. Most of the tooling stuff that folks around here are likely to care about has more to do with building software or finding bugs in it, not writing code. For most of us, that's what programs like vim and emacs are for. Historically, something like writing a D plugin for IDE has happened because someone who wanted that support for themselves has stepped up and provided it to the community. The same goes for most standard library additions. Standing up and saying that you want someone else to do something rarely gets anything done around here. It's almost always about someone contributing what they think is important and are able and willing to spend the time to implement and contribute. - Jonathan M Davis
Re: Jetbrains announce support for rust plugin, show them we want one too!
On Friday, 11 August 2017 at 03:16:17 UTC, Dmitry wrote: On Thursday, 10 August 2017 at 19:44:35 UTC, 12345swordy wrote: On Thursday, 10 August 2017 at 05:55:59 UTC, Dmitry wrote: On Wednesday, 9 August 2017 at 20:29:07 UTC, 12345swordy wrote: You edit the json file of course. That how DUB generates solution files for visual D and other IDE's. This breaks changes that was done in the VS project. What changes are talking about? You typically make changes in the json file. https://forum.dlang.org/thread/olfrkycsfukvipeoh...@forum.dlang.org The person that you reply appears to be uncertain as he/she admits that he/she never use dub themselves. BTW if you want to add a dependency to the project you have to modify the json file.
Re: Jetbrains announce support for rust plugin, show them we want one too!
On Friday, 11 August 2017 at 12:11:13 UTC, Vadim Lopatin wrote: E.g. DlangIDE is written in D, uses cross-platform GUI library DlangUI which is written in D, and is cross-platform. May work even as console app. First, you are to be saluted (luimarco style*) for your effor on DlangIDE and DlangUI And I wish you continued growth and success But if you may accept some advice from me, I think, re branding the DlangIDE to something more generic and adding C support specifically and allowing to add support for other languages is the right thing to do IDEs take years to mature, you need to be more inclusive, only supporting D isnt very inclusive Most people program in more than one language, and like to use one toolset/ide C specifically, because there is a large C community out there that is under served, most C programmer use advanced text editors Vim/Emacs/SlickEdit In other word, you need to be more inclusive and inviting, IDEs are big and the D community is small A re-branding (Call it Dice IDE, for example) Pluggin support And a solid C plugin are my recommendations -- * luimarco is a fitness and body building youtuber
Re: Jetbrains announce support for rust plugin, show them we want one too!
On Friday, 11 August 2017 at 11:34:44 UTC, Ola Fosheim Grøstad wrote: On Wednesday, 9 August 2017 at 07:59:46 UTC, Ryion wrote: this here because its obvious pattern. I agree that this seems to be a very small community and it is hard to get things done in a small community. But it is counter productive to constantly tell people that there is no solution, they need to do it or pay for it. Its like hearing a broken record that keeps skipping to the same beat. It's a sign of a lack of strategy. Other languages such as Dart had an IDE strategy from the start. Dart even provided a full Eclipse based IDE until JetBrains included support (then the Dart team dropped their own IDE). Without a central organized IDE project it will be hard to reach maturity for any such effort (unless the language is popular to sustain the development of a commercial IDE). I think having IDE for some language written in the same language may show power and usability of this language. E.g. DlangIDE is written in D, uses cross-platform GUI library DlangUI which is written in D, and is cross-platform. May work even as console app. For D programmers, it's easy to contribute something to IDE written in D than to some Java or C++/C# project. Active contributing to DlangIDE can make it really useful tool. So far, it's less usable than Visual-D or Mono-D. So far, I myself use Visual-D to develop D projects (including DlangIDE), but I hope there will be a point when it would be possible to switch to DlangIDE. I'm thinking about killer feature - adding Delphi like UI designer for writing DlangUI/DML apps. Having IDE similar to Delphi or Lazarus would be great advantage of D.
Re: Jetbrains announce support for rust plugin, show them we want one too!
On 11/08/2017 12:46 PM, HyperParrow wrote: On Friday, 11 August 2017 at 08:13:07 UTC, SC wrote: [...] having great tooling might increase popularity, but for me it'll improve my productivity, and that's all i care about, popularity is next, quality is already nice for me The language itself should improve your productivity: meta programming, embedded unittests, static assertions. Good tooling won't subtract from a good language, it will only improve upon it. Its the icing on the already delicious cake.
Re: Jetbrains announce support for rust plugin, show them we want one too!
On Friday, 11 August 2017 at 08:13:07 UTC, SC wrote: [...] having great tooling might increase popularity, but for me it'll improve my productivity, and that's all i care about, popularity is next, quality is already nice for me The language itself should improve your productivity: meta programming, embedded unittests, static assertions.
Re: Jetbrains announce support for rust plugin, show them we want one too!
On Wednesday, 9 August 2017 at 07:59:46 UTC, Ryion wrote: this here because its obvious pattern. I agree that this seems to be a very small community and it is hard to get things done in a small community. But it is counter productive to constantly tell people that there is no solution, they need to do it or pay for it. Its like hearing a broken record that keeps skipping to the same beat. It's a sign of a lack of strategy. Other languages such as Dart had an IDE strategy from the start. Dart even provided a full Eclipse based IDE until JetBrains included support (then the Dart team dropped their own IDE). Without a central organized IDE project it will be hard to reach maturity for any such effort (unless the language is popular to sustain the development of a commercial IDE).
Re: Jetbrains announce support for rust plugin, show them we want one too!
On Wednesday, 9 August 2017 at 22:17:42 UTC, Jonathan M Davis wrote: On Wednesday, August 09, 2017 17:13:37 Timon Gehr via Digitalmars-d wrote: It is also a common pattern for the complainers to point out how not fixing their pet peeve will result in negative PR or reduced popularity. As if everyone here was somehow more deeply invested in D's popularity than in its quality. I find that to be a bit irritating. If anything, most of us are more invested in its quality than its popularity. Those of us who spend our time contributing to the code base or writing our personal projects in D care a great deal about its quality, and while we may care about how popular it is, that obviously wasn't what brought us here. Having D popular would be nice, but it's not necessary for us to be doing what we've been doing. And the reality of the matter is that most of us don't have the proper skillset for improving D's popularity. We're engineers, not marketing people. If someone has an issue that prevents them from using D, then that matters, but it needs to be taken in the context of everything else, and honestly, if doing something to make the language more popular means reducing its quality, I'd rather that it have higher quality. Ideally, having higher quality would help improve its popularity, but unfortunately, things don't always work that way. Regardless, we're here because we want a quality language, not because we want a popular one. We just hope that those two things aren't mutually exclusive. - Jonathan M Davis i agree about quality part, but you mix two things, popularity and the need of tooling the point of my post was to gather community in hope for better tooling, not popularity having great tooling might increase popularity, but for me it'll improve my productivity, and that's all i care about, popularity is next, quality is already nice for me
Re: Jetbrains announce support for rust plugin, show them we want one too!
On Thursday, 10 August 2017 at 19:44:35 UTC, 12345swordy wrote: On Thursday, 10 August 2017 at 05:55:59 UTC, Dmitry wrote: On Wednesday, 9 August 2017 at 20:29:07 UTC, 12345swordy wrote: You edit the json file of course. That how DUB generates solution files for visual D and other IDE's. This breaks changes that was done in the VS project. What changes are talking about? You typically make changes in the json file. https://forum.dlang.org/thread/olfrkycsfukvipeoh...@forum.dlang.org
Re: Jetbrains announce support for rust plugin, show them we want one too!
On Thursday, 10 August 2017 at 05:55:59 UTC, Dmitry wrote: On Wednesday, 9 August 2017 at 20:29:07 UTC, 12345swordy wrote: You edit the json file of course. That how DUB generates solution files for visual D and other IDE's. This breaks changes that was done in the VS project. What changes are talking about? You typically make changes in the json file. Alex
Re: Jetbrains announce support for rust plugin, show them we want one too!
On Wednesday, 9 August 2017 at 20:29:07 UTC, 12345swordy wrote: You edit the json file of course. That how DUB generates solution files for visual D and other IDE's. This breaks changes that was done in the VS project.
Re: Jetbrains announce support for rust plugin, show them we want one too!
On Wednesday, August 09, 2017 17:13:37 Timon Gehr via Digitalmars-d wrote: > It is also a common pattern for the complainers to point out how not > fixing their pet peeve will result in negative PR or reduced popularity. > As if everyone here was somehow more deeply invested in D's popularity > than in its quality. I find that to be a bit irritating. If anything, most of us are more invested in its quality than its popularity. Those of us who spend our time contributing to the code base or writing our personal projects in D care a great deal about its quality, and while we may care about how popular it is, that obviously wasn't what brought us here. Having D popular would be nice, but it's not necessary for us to be doing what we've been doing. And the reality of the matter is that most of us don't have the proper skillset for improving D's popularity. We're engineers, not marketing people. If someone has an issue that prevents them from using D, then that matters, but it needs to be taken in the context of everything else, and honestly, if doing something to make the language more popular means reducing its quality, I'd rather that it have higher quality. Ideally, having higher quality would help improve its popularity, but unfortunately, things don't always work that way. Regardless, we're here because we want a quality language, not because we want a popular one. We just hope that those two things aren't mutually exclusive. - Jonathan M Davis
Re: Jetbrains announce support for rust plugin, show them we want one too!
On Sunday, 6 August 2017 at 16:02:16 UTC, Dmitry wrote: On Sunday, 6 August 2017 at 13:54:43 UTC, 12345swordy wrote: On Sunday, 6 August 2017 at 07:04:34 UTC, Dmitry wrote: Visual D also has some problems that sensitive for newbies. For example, no DUB support. What are you talking about? dub generates solution files for visual d. Of course visual d has DUB support, you just have to generate the solution files via command line. And what then? Later I need add 10 libraries more - what I should to do? You edit the json file of course. That how DUB generates solution files for visual D and other IDE's.
Re: Jetbrains announce support for rust plugin, show them we want one too!
On 09.08.2017 09:59, Ryion wrote: Specific people here keep responding how the complainer needs to do it themselves or pay for it. This is usually after the complainer tells others to do it for him/her, sometimes using strong language. The current thread is particularly peculiar, as it adds an additional indirection: the poster asks others to ask someone else to do the work. :) Tracing the people that "complained" there post history, shows that most of them simply do not post anymore, after being told to do it themselves. The threads they spawn are often not very interesting. All the rest is simply negative PR for the people who lurk ( not post ) and read the comments. It is also a common pattern for the complainers to point out how not fixing their pet peeve will result in negative PR or reduced popularity. As if everyone here was somehow more deeply invested in D's popularity than in its quality. I find that to be a bit irritating.
Re: Jetbrains announce support for rust plugin, show them we want one too!
On Wednesday, 9 August 2017 at 08:22:05 UTC, Daniel Kozak wrote: You can write it yourself :P, or pay someone to do it for you. On Wed, Aug 9, 2017 at 10:02 AM, Ryion via Digitalmars-d < digitalmars-d@puremagic.com> wrote: On Wednesday, 9 August 2017 at 07:59:46 UTC, Ryion wrote: And that person pushing has much more effect :) And a actual forum with a edit button may also be useful. Instead of this mail system. Since the underlying technology is newsgroups (and this is unlikely to change) you could indeed try to map editing in the web interface (forum) to cancel the message posting (newsgroups support this) and send the edited one as a new one.
Re: Jetbrains announce support for rust plugin, show them we want one too!
On Wednesday, 9 August 2017 at 07:59:46 UTC, Ryion wrote: Maybe i made myself not very clear. Sorry about that. I mention this as reading topics here shows the same behavior. People complain. Specific people here keep responding how the complainer needs to do it themselves or pay for it. Tracing the people that "complained" there post history, shows that most of them simply do not post anymore, after being told to do it themselves. I do not want to wast people there time, i only responded to this here because its obvious pattern. I agree that this seems to be a very small community and it is hard to get things done in a small community. But it is counter productive to constantly tell people that there is no solution, they need to do it or pay for it. Its like hearing a broken record that keeps skipping to the same beat. The same question will get the same answer unless the facts change, I'm sorry if you feel that this sounds like a broken record. People who have the time and willingness to do so, WILL do it themselves without being told on a forum. All the rest is simply negative PR for the people who lurk ( not post ) and read the comments. The choices on our side when responding to people complaining about / asking for missing things are AFAICT a) Not respond to people asking/complaining about these things b) Inform them about the situation and explain their options I believe b) to be the sane choice here. The 'we' refers to me and my colleague. And 'we' do mean that the amount of posting here that ask people to do the work is way more then on other language forums. We understand the reasoning but its about first impressions. And when anybody reads comments stating the above too many times, it simply feels like the community is too small to support the language. Causation and effect. The community is large enough to support the language, which you can see plainly when you inspect D frontend and compiler(s) steady development, as well as the clearance rate of issues. It's just not large enough to support all kinds of "do this for me" third party feature requests. The more pushing does not result in more people actually contributing. It can have the reverse effect of actually pushing people away. Again with this false premise of "pushing"; stating facts is not pushing. Examples of pushing: "please do this (for me/us)", "you should do this (for me/us)", etc. If people think they are being pushed away by a rational text, then that is indeed sad, but that is their choice. Its beating a dead horse because i expect that months from now, the same pattern will still be here. [...] They'll get a reply matching the situation at that future time, I expect.
Re: Jetbrains announce support for rust plugin, show them we want one too!
You can write it yourself :P, or pay someone to do it for you. On Wed, Aug 9, 2017 at 10:02 AM, Ryion via Digitalmars-d < digitalmars-d@puremagic.com> wrote: > On Wednesday, 9 August 2017 at 07:59:46 UTC, Ryion wrote: > >> And that person pushing has much more effect :) >> > > And a actual forum with a edit button may also be useful. Instead of this > mail system. >
Re: Jetbrains announce support for rust plugin, show them we want one too!
On Wednesday, 9 August 2017 at 07:59:46 UTC, Ryion wrote: And that person pushing has much more effect :) And a actual forum with a edit button may also be useful. Instead of this mail system.
Re: Jetbrains announce support for rust plugin, show them we want one too!
Maybe i made myself not very clear. Sorry about that. I mention this as reading topics here shows the same behavior. People complain. Specific people here keep responding how the complainer needs to do it themselves or pay for it. Tracing the people that "complained" there post history, shows that most of them simply do not post anymore, after being told to do it themselves. I do not want to wast people there time, i only responded to this here because its obvious pattern. I agree that this seems to be a very small community and it is hard to get things done in a small community. But it is counter productive to constantly tell people that there is no solution, they need to do it or pay for it. Its like hearing a broken record that keeps skipping to the same beat. People who have the time and willingness to do so, WILL do it themselves without being told on a forum. All the rest is simply negative PR for the people who lurk ( not post ) and read the comments. The 'we' refers to me and my colleague. And 'we' do mean that the amount of posting here that ask people to do the work is way more then on other language forums. We understand the reasoning but its about first impressions. And when anybody reads comments stating the above too many times, it simply feels like the community is too small to support the language. Causation and effect. The more pushing does not result in more people actually contributing. It can have the reverse effect of actually pushing people away. Its beating a dead horse because i expect that months from now, the same pattern will still be here. Need to get back to actual work or the boss will be less happy. And that person pushing that much more effect :)
Re: Jetbrains announce support for rust plugin, show them we want one too!
On Tuesday, 8 August 2017 at 15:40:08 UTC, Ryion wrote: On Sunday, 6 August 2017 at 19:15:59 UTC, bachmeier wrote: Your claim to have limited D skills doesn't prevent you from writing a blog post detailing the things that are missing for Windows development and showing how other languages deal with them. A lot of work with tooling doesn't require D skills for that matter (for instance, Eclipse plugins are not written in D AFAIK). You can ask the current tool developers how to help, report bugs, make suggestions, fix small bugs, The least effective thing to do is to post on the forum that the tools aren't good enough. I applaud the people who contribute but reading posts here that pushing people ( on a lot of topics ) to contribute does not exactly motivate. No one is "pushing" anyone. It's a simple declaration of facts: What is wanted here is currently not wanted by enough other people in the community strongly enough for them to spend more time on it than they currently do (or they would do so). It follows, that if someone want to get such things done, that someone can either wait until someone else does it in his or her spare/own time, do it him/herself, or pay someone to do it. If this doesn't motivate you, that's your prerogative, of course, but then don't expect your display to motivate someone else to do it, either. It shows a rather desperation that we do not see in other languages forums. Who is "we"? Also, implying that the people pointing out you could contribute if you want something are the ones being "desperate" is - frankly - insulting. If you don't want to contribute, or don't have the time, that's understandable and fine, but then don't be surprised if others share the sentiment. Having people write plugins is one thing. Having them supporting those plugins for years to come, that is another. Its not the actual the written the plugins that is a issue. There are plenty of D plugins out there. But people get discourages, lack of time, run into issues they can not figure out, new D version, new IDE changes... whatever changes that break the plugins. There are plenty of plugins for almost every editor/ide but few are well supported because it ends up being one man development teams. This is a good description of the problem's complexity, but it doesn't change the facts that people work on what they want to work on in their free time and most main/long/old D users seem mostly content with their current workflow, so it's up to new users to change things for the better here. Writing about it and trying to gather support is a good first step (that has happened multiple times in the past years), but unless it's backed up by a coordinated effort, it won't yield any tangible results. So what is the point in pushing people: write plugins, put time into them, ... when even the people know that with there day job, family life they can not keep supporting / expanding the plugins. False premise about "pushing" people. Other than that: Everything is temporary - especially in IT - the important question is can you get a good ROI on the time you spend writing your plugin. I, e.g., invested about 10 hours to write my D plugin for Sublime Text 3 [1], and I've already saved enough time using it that its ROI is positive. It feels like this approach is just wrong... When people are motivated, they so so from themselves and do not need the "gentle" pushing on a forum to do so. Again the false premise of a "push". The intention here is not to motivate anyone, it's to explain the situation and your options. [1] https://github.com/Calrama/sublide
Re: Jetbrains announce support for rust plugin, show them we want one too!
On Tuesday, 8 August 2017 at 15:40:08 UTC, Ryion wrote: I applaud the people who contribute but reading posts here that pushing people ( on a lot of topics ) to contribute does not exactly motivate. It shows a rather desperation that we do not see in other languages forums. porting / expanding the plugins. It feels like this approach is just wrong... When people are motivated, they so so from themselves and do not need the "gentle" pushing on a forum to do so. It's not pushing, not desperation. It's just a fact of life in community-driven projects. And this is certainly not the only community I've seen it in. The fact is, the things that get implemented, whether they be IDE plugins, libraries, tooling, whatever, actually do get implemented because someone stepped up to do it. Sometimes things get abandoned and others step in to take them over, other times they rot. So it's perfectly reasonable advice to give someone -- if you see a hole that needs filling, you can either try to get someone else to fill it or do it yourself. There is simply no team you can go to with a feature request that can be put on a task list and assigned to someone later on down the road. Without a champion to move it forward, it's just going to fall into the bin of great ideas that never see the light of day.
Re: Jetbrains announce support for rust plugin, show them we want one too!
On Sunday, 6 August 2017 at 19:15:59 UTC, bachmeier wrote: Your claim to have limited D skills doesn't prevent you from writing a blog post detailing the things that are missing for Windows development and showing how other languages deal with them. A lot of work with tooling doesn't require D skills for that matter (for instance, Eclipse plugins are not written in D AFAIK). You can ask the current tool developers how to help, report bugs, make suggestions, fix small bugs, The least effective thing to do is to post on the forum that the tools aren't good enough. I applaud the people who contribute but reading posts here that pushing people ( on a lot of topics ) to contribute does not exactly motivate. It shows a rather desperation that we do not see in other languages forums. Having people write plugins is one thing. Having them supporting those plugins for years to come, that is another. Its not the actual the written the plugins that is a issue. There are plenty of D plugins out there. But people get discourages, lack of time, run into issues they can not figure out, new D version, new IDE changes... whatever changes that break the plugins. There are plenty of plugins for almost every editor/ide but few are well supported because it ends up being one man development teams. So what is the point in pushing people: write plugins, put time into them, ... when even the people know that with there day job, family life they can not keep supporting / expanding the plugins. It feels like this approach is just wrong... When people are motivated, they so so from themselves and do not need the "gentle" pushing on a forum to do so.
Re: Jetbrains announce support for rust plugin, show them we want one too!
On Sunday, 6 August 2017 at 16:10:05 UTC, Dmitry wrote: On Sunday, 6 August 2017 at 14:05:31 UTC, bachmeier wrote: Then Windows users need to start contributing. Good or bad, this is not a company deciding how to allocate developer time, it is a volunteer organization. I see a lot of posts of the form "this isn't what group X expects". The response will never be "okay, we'll put a couple of guys on it". anwered few posts above https://forum.dlang.org/post/jzoqudtirjrjdutla...@forum.dlang.org Your claim to have limited D skills doesn't prevent you from writing a blog post detailing the things that are missing for Windows development and showing how other languages deal with them. A lot of work with tooling doesn't require D skills for that matter (for instance, Eclipse plugins are not written in D AFAIK). You can ask the current tool developers how to help, report bugs, make suggestions, fix small bugs, The least effective thing to do is to post on the forum that the tools aren't good enough.
Re: Jetbrains announce support for rust plugin, show them we want one too!
On Sunday, 6 August 2017 at 15:43:46 UTC, Moritz Maxeiner wrote: On Sunday, 6 August 2017 at 15:32:07 UTC, Paulo Pinto wrote: On Sunday, 6 August 2017 at 14:16:20 UTC, Moritz Maxeiner wrote: [...] According to Google on their Android Developers Backstage podcast, the majority of Android Studio users are on Windows. Assuming that's accurate it's indeed interesting information about the current state of affairs, though it doesn't answer the question of how that changed over time and how it's going to continue to change (the latter of which being the basis for my speculation). Have they released that information somewhere officially (with additional information about how they acquired the data, etc.)? Just on the podcast. They get the data via Android Studio's telemetry.
Re: Jetbrains announce support for rust plugin, show them we want one too!
On Sunday, 6 August 2017 at 14:30:48 UTC, Ryion wrote: On my work half the developers are on Mac, the other half are on Windows. There is not a single Linux system. From the windows developers 2 use "bash" on Windows regularly. Moreover, Macs' popularity may differ a lot in different countries. Most firms i have been its always a mix of Windows and Macs. The few Linux guy are die hard fresh from school guys, that are insisted on there Linux system. What some may consider "Ultra Geeks". :-) It all depends on how you define development. For web development the target is Linux but the development environment is often Windows. So what is the correct a statistical target? The best view is to see what is going on around one self and its mostly Windows/Mac with Linux deployment/testing for both systems. Windows Bash making that task more easy for the Windows guys. I see same situation around. But Mac very expensive in my country, so many people often works only on Windows (with Linux environment, like Bash on Windows, etc). I make games for Windows, iOS, Android and HTML5. And all this I make on Windows, which takes about 99.9% of all time (MacOS used remotely and very rare - for make build for test on real device; etc)
Re: Jetbrains announce support for rust plugin, show them we want one too!
And a splendid job Francis is doing. I should be contributing more, but till October, little chance of that. The project could do with more people working on it. You'll get practice using Kotlin, which is the native code language that will be competing with Go and Rust next year! All programming languages have a number of niche IDE, but when it comes down to it, traction of a language is really determined by the support in Visual Studio, Eclipse, and IntelliJ IDEA. cf. Go, Rust, Kotlin. Clearly, on proper analysis, this is a correlation rather than a causation, but it is all intimately related. D needs the IntelliJ IDEA, Eclipse, and Visual Studio plugins. On Sun, 2017-08-06 at 06:07 +, Francis Nixon via Digitalmars-d wrote: > I'm one of the people currently working on the D intellij > plugin(same username on github). We have a fairly comprehensive > CONTRIBUTING.md here: > https://github.com/intellij-dlanguage/intellij-dlanguage/blob/develop/CONTRI > BUTING.md > > Currently one of the problems I'm having is that D is really > complex(I assume everyone else trying to make a good D IDE as > this problem). This means features that are deceptively simple, > like goto declaration are quite complex. One thing that could > really help with this project would be a contributor with > experience on the D compiler, which could help with features like > goto declaration and code completion. Additionally I suspect that > we have mountains of bugs, so it would also be helpful to get > lots of user testing. -- Russel. = Dr Russel Winder t: +44 20 7585 2200 voip: sip:russel.win...@ekiga.net 41 Buckmaster Roadm: +44 7770 465 077 xmpp: rus...@winder.org.uk London SW11 1EN, UK w: www.russel.org.uk skype: russel_winder signature.asc Description: This is a digitally signed message part
Re: Jetbrains announce support for rust plugin, show them we want one too!
On Sunday, 6 August 2017 at 14:05:31 UTC, bachmeier wrote: Then Windows users need to start contributing. Good or bad, this is not a company deciding how to allocate developer time, it is a volunteer organization. I see a lot of posts of the form "this isn't what group X expects". The response will never be "okay, we'll put a couple of guys on it". anwered few posts above https://forum.dlang.org/post/jzoqudtirjrjdutla...@forum.dlang.org
Re: Jetbrains announce support for rust plugin, show them we want one too!
On Sunday, 6 August 2017 at 13:54:43 UTC, 12345swordy wrote: On Sunday, 6 August 2017 at 07:04:34 UTC, Dmitry wrote: Visual D also has some problems that sensitive for newbies. For example, no DUB support. What are you talking about? dub generates solution files for visual d. Of course visual d has DUB support, you just have to generate the solution files via command line. And what then? Later I need add 10 libraries more - what I should to do?
Re: Jetbrains announce support for rust plugin, show them we want one too!
On Sunday, 6 August 2017 at 15:32:07 UTC, Paulo Pinto wrote: On Sunday, 6 August 2017 at 14:16:20 UTC, Moritz Maxeiner wrote: On Sunday, 6 August 2017 at 12:14:16 UTC, Dmitry wrote: [...] A developer who mostly targets Windows wouldn't. But if you look at the statistics [1] you'd see that in the category of systems accessing the web mobile systems (and we are excluding servers here, who are virtually all UNIX systems anyway) have been steadily overtaking classic desktop systems in market share, from which it can be reasonably argued that it's only a matter of time until the amount of development for Windows relative to overall development is declining (regardless of how little it already has). [...] According to Google on their Android Developers Backstage podcast, the majority of Android Studio users are on Windows. Assuming that's accurate it's indeed interesting information about the current state of affairs, though it doesn't answer the question of how that changed over time and how it's going to continue to change (the latter of which being the basis for my speculation). Have they released that information somewhere officially (with additional information about how they acquired the data, etc.)?
Re: Jetbrains announce support for rust plugin, show them we want one too!
On Sunday, 6 August 2017 at 14:16:20 UTC, Moritz Maxeiner wrote: On Sunday, 6 August 2017 at 12:14:16 UTC, Dmitry wrote: [...] A developer who mostly targets Windows wouldn't. But if you look at the statistics [1] you'd see that in the category of systems accessing the web mobile systems (and we are excluding servers here, who are virtually all UNIX systems anyway) have been steadily overtaking classic desktop systems in market share, from which it can be reasonably argued that it's only a matter of time until the amount of development for Windows relative to overall development is declining (regardless of how little it already has). [...] According to Google on their Android Developers Backstage podcast, the majority of Android Studio users are on Windows.
Re: Jetbrains announce support for rust plugin, show them we want one too!
On Sunday, 6 August 2017 at 15:18:49 UTC, Ryion wrote: On Sunday, 6 August 2017 at 14:49:47 UTC, Moritz Maxeiner wrote: 1) Anecdotes are not useful here 2) macOS is UNIX, same as Linux, so I'm not sure why the distinction matters as a reply to me Same two points as above. Thanks for the interesting reply. /S You're welcome. If you wish for a less interesting reply don't use anectodal evidence or strawmen.
Re: Jetbrains announce support for rust plugin, show them we want one too!
On Sunday, 6 August 2017 at 14:49:47 UTC, Moritz Maxeiner wrote: 1) Anecdotes are not useful here 2) macOS is UNIX, same as Linux, so I'm not sure why the distinction matters as a reply to me Same two points as above. Thanks for the interesting reply. /S
Re: Jetbrains announce support for rust plugin, show them we want one too!
On Sunday, 6 August 2017 at 14:30:48 UTC, Ryion wrote: On Sunday, 6 August 2017 at 14:16:20 UTC, Moritz Maxeiner wrote: [...] How sure are you even with statistics... On my work half the developers are on Mac, the other half are on Windows. There is not a single Linux system. From the windows developers 2 use "bash" on Windows regularly. [...] 1) Anecdotes are not useful here 2) macOS is UNIX, same as Linux, so I'm not sure why the distinction matters as a reply to me The best view is to see what is going on around one self and its mostly Windows/Mac with Linux deployment/testing for both systems. Same two points as above.
Re: Jetbrains announce support for rust plugin, show them we want one too!
On Sunday, 6 August 2017 at 14:16:20 UTC, Moritz Maxeiner wrote: A developer who mostly targets Windows wouldn't. But if you look at the statistics [1] you'd see that in the category of systems accessing the web mobile systems (and we are excluding servers here, who are virtually all UNIX systems anyway) have been steadily overtaking classic desktop systems in market share, from which it can be reasonably argued that it's only a matter of time until the amount of development for Windows relative to overall development is declining (regardless of how little it already has). How sure are you even with statistics... On my work half the developers are on Mac, the other half are on Windows. There is not a single Linux system. From the windows developers 2 use "bash" on Windows regularly. Most firms i have been its always a mix of Windows and Macs. The few Linux guy are die hard fresh from school guys, that are insisted on there Linux system. What some may consider "Ultra Geeks". :-) It all depends on how you define development. For web development the target is Linux but the development environment is often Windows. So what is the correct a statistical target? The best view is to see what is going on around one self and its mostly Windows/Mac with Linux deployment/testing for both systems. Windows Bash making that task more easy for the Windows guys.
Re: Jetbrains announce support for rust plugin, show them we want one too!
On Sunday, 6 August 2017 at 12:14:16 UTC, Dmitry wrote: I don't think so. Why developer should use MacOS/Linux if the target platform is Windows in most of cases? A developer who mostly targets Windows wouldn't. But if you look at the statistics [1] you'd see that in the category of systems accessing the web mobile systems (and we are excluding servers here, who are virtually all UNIX systems anyway) have been steadily overtaking classic desktop systems in market share, from which it can be reasonably argued that it's only a matter of time until the amount of development for Windows relative to overall development is declining (regardless of how little it already has). Just for example. I'm a game developer and almost all game developers who I know works on Windows (MacOS and Linux used by less than 1% of them). Game development is a (profitable) niche sector, which is indeed dominated by Windows (because of a historically entrenched monopoly, but that's beside the point). Another example. A survey of developers (about 15K people) from Russian IT site. Windows ~67%, Linux ~20%, MacOS ~11% (biggest part of these Linux/MacOS developers uses it for web developing). Citation needed. In any case, the result is same: the biggest platform supported worse than others. Windows is not the biggest platform. It may be for your use cases, but it's not overall. [1] http://gs.statcounter.com/platform-market-share/desktop-mobile-tablet/worldwide
Re: Jetbrains announce support for rust plugin, show them we want one too!
On Sunday, 6 August 2017 at 12:14:16 UTC, Dmitry wrote: In any case, the result is same: the biggest platform supported worse than others. Then Windows users need to start contributing. Good or bad, this is not a company deciding how to allocate developer time, it is a volunteer organization. I see a lot of posts of the form "this isn't what group X expects". The response will never be "okay, we'll put a couple of guys on it".
Re: Jetbrains announce support for rust plugin, show them we want one too!
On Sunday, 6 August 2017 at 07:04:34 UTC, Dmitry wrote: Visual D also has some problems that sensitive for newbies. For example, no DUB support. What are you talking about? dub generates solution files for visual d. Of course visual d has DUB support, you just have to generate the solution files via command line.
Re: Jetbrains announce support for rust plugin, show them we want one too!
On Sunday, 6 August 2017 at 10:24:42 UTC, Russel Winder wrote: I am sure Microsoft would declare that figure accurate for computers in general. I suspect though that it is totally It's not Microsoft's statistic. StatCounter, Net Market Share, etc. inaccurate for software developers, in that group I'd bet 40% use MacOS and 20% use Linux. Are you told it as Linux/MacOS developer who always contacts with Linux/MacOS developers? Looks like "A survey on the Internet showed that 100% of people use the Internet" :) I don't think so. Why developer should use MacOS/Linux if the target platform is Windows in most of cases? Just for example. I'm a game developer and almost all game developers who I know works on Windows (MacOS and Linux used by less than 1% of them). BTW, Steam statistic: 96% - Windows. Another example. A survey of developers (about 15K people) from Russian IT site. Windows ~67%, Linux ~20%, MacOS ~11% (biggest part of these Linux/MacOS developers uses it for web developing). In any case, the result is same: the biggest platform supported worse than others.
Re: Jetbrains announce support for rust plugin, show them we want one too!
On Sun, 2017-08-06 at 07:04 +, Dmitry via Digitalmars-d wrote: > […] > About 90% of computers uses Windows, but D on Linux supported > better (for example, VS Code and Mono-D has debugging support). I am sure Microsoft would declare that figure accurate for computers in general. I suspect though that it is totally inaccurate for software developers, in that group I'd bet 40% use MacOS and 20% use Linux. > Visual D also has some problems that sensitive for newbies. For > example, no DUB support. > Given Dub is now seemingly core to D development for many, this is not a good situation. […] -- Russel. = Dr Russel Winder t: +44 20 7585 2200 voip: sip:russel.win...@ekiga.net 41 Buckmaster Roadm: +44 7770 465 077 xmpp: rus...@winder.org.uk London SW11 1EN, UK w: www.russel.org.uk skype: russel_winder signature.asc Description: This is a digitally signed message part
Re: Jetbrains announce support for rust plugin, show them we want one too!
On Saturday, 5 August 2017 at 16:22:18 UTC, Russel Winder wrote: As far as I can tell there are no good D development environments in the way there are C++, Go, Rust ones. I have no idea about Visual D since that involves Visual Studio which I think involves Windows and possibly money – though paying for a good development environment does usually imply better quality, support and maintenance. About 90% of computers uses Windows, but D on Linux supported better (for example, VS Code and Mono-D has debugging support). Visual D also has some problems that sensitive for newbies. For example, no DUB support. P.S. I don't meant all possible features for IDE (like available for Visual Studio + C# + Resharper, etc). Personally for me it is: debugger, base refactoring, definition goto.
Re: Jetbrains announce support for rust plugin, show them we want one too!
I'm one of the people currently working on the D intellij plugin(same username on github). We have a fairly comprehensive CONTRIBUTING.md here: https://github.com/intellij-dlanguage/intellij-dlanguage/blob/develop/CONTRIBUTING.md Currently one of the problems I'm having is that D is really complex(I assume everyone else trying to make a good D IDE as this problem). This means features that are deceptively simple, like goto declaration are quite complex. One thing that could really help with this project would be a contributor with experience on the D compiler, which could help with features like goto declaration and code completion. Additionally I suspect that we have mountains of bugs, so it would also be helpful to get lots of user testing.
Re: Jetbrains announce support for rust plugin, show them we want one too!
On Sat, 2017-08-05 at 13:16 +, Dmitry via Digitalmars-d wrote: > […] > I'm an one who needed a good IDE (+debugger) support. But > unfortunately I'm not found a good one for D. > I have small skills in D, so my abilities is very limited > (translate something to another language, etc). And I'm not sure > that I'll be able grow it well without a good IDE, because > then I'd prefer other solid ecosystems for any serious projects. As far as I can tell there are no good D development environments in the way there are C++, Go, Rust ones. I have no idea about Visual D since that involves Visual Studio which I think involves Windows and possibly money – though paying for a good development environment does usually imply better quality, support and maintenance. -- Russel. = Dr Russel Winder t: +44 20 7585 2200 voip: sip:russel.win...@ekiga.net 41 Buckmaster Roadm: +44 7770 465 077 xmpp: rus...@winder.org.uk London SW11 1EN, UK w: www.russel.org.uk skype: russel_winder signature.asc Description: This is a digitally signed message part
Re: Jetbrains announce support for rust plugin, show them we want one too!
On Saturday, 5 August 2017 at 11:26:57 UTC, Russel Winder wrote: If more people in the D community had the attitude "I can help with that" rather than "I wish they would so something", D tooling based on mainstream infrastructure would be a lot better than it currently is. Don't wait from a new people that they're skilled for it. Use D and make D (including ecosystem) - it's absolutely different, and requires a different level of skills. I'm an one who needed a good IDE (+debugger) support. But unfortunately I'm not found a good one for D. I have small skills in D, so my abilities is very limited (translate something to another language, etc). And I'm not sure that I'll be able grow it well without a good IDE, because then I'd prefer other solid ecosystems for any serious projects.
Re: Jetbrains announce support for rust plugin, show them we want one too!
On Sat, 2017-08-05 at 10:19 +0200, Daniel Kozak via Digitalmars-d wrote: > I would not say so: > https://github.com/intellij-dlanguage/intellij-dlanguage/issues/211 > Just because Kingsley has moved on doesn't mean the project is dead. In fact far from it. Except that currently is is spare time activity from a couple of people. -- Russel. = Dr Russel Winder t: +44 20 7585 2200 voip: sip:russel.win...@ekiga.net 41 Buckmaster Roadm: +44 7770 465 077 xmpp: rus...@winder.org.uk London SW11 1EN, UK w: www.russel.org.uk skype: russel_winder signature.asc Description: This is a digitally signed message part
Re: Jetbrains announce support for rust plugin, show them we want one too!
On Fri, 2017-08-04 at 19:42 +, Ali via Digitalmars-d wrote: > […] > They dont have plans for a standalone rust ide, like clion for c++ Remember CLion is first and foremost a CMake based IDE that happens to have excellent support for C and C++ files. Also Rust, and a whole load of other languages for which there is a CMake build capability. […] > I think a community support for the Dlang intellij plugin is our > best hope > we can start a kickstarter project and donate money to them .. > might work > > I would donate to them if they also include a refactoring tool There is no "they" IntelliJ-DLanguage is a plugin for IntelliJ IDEA being written by the D community, that is "you". Sadly, currently, only a couple of people are putting in a bit of their spare time to keep the project moving. If more people in the D community had the attitude "I can help with that" rather than "I wish they would so something", D tooling based on mainstream infrastructure would be a lot better than it currently is. -- Russel. = Dr Russel Winder t: +44 20 7585 2200 voip: sip:russel.win...@ekiga.net 41 Buckmaster Roadm: +44 7770 465 077 xmpp: rus...@winder.org.uk London SW11 1EN, UK w: www.russel.org.uk skype: russel_winder signature.asc Description: This is a digitally signed message part
Re: Jetbrains announce support for rust plugin, show them we want one too!
I would not say so: https://github.com/intellij-dlanguage/intellij-dlanguage/issues/211 On Fri, Aug 4, 2017 at 8:36 PM, Ali via Digitalmars-d < digitalmars-d@puremagic.com> wrote: > On Friday, 4 August 2017 at 18:15:47 UTC, SCev wrote: > >> Just today, jetbrains announced their official support for the rust plugin >> >> I'm sure they'll do something for D if we ask them, don't stay silent!! >> show them you want something >> >> Leave a comment in their blog for a D support! too! >> >> We can do it! >> >> https://blog.jetbrains.com/blog/2017/08/04/official-support- >> for-open-source-rust-plugin-for-intellij-idea-clion-and- >> other-jetbrains-ides/ >> > > there is already a pluggin for D, > https://github.com/intellij-dlanguage/intellij-dlanguage > > not officially supported by Jetbrains > seems to be under active development > > >
Re: Jetbrains announce support for rust plugin, show them we want one too!
On Friday, 4 August 2017 at 19:42:43 UTC, Ali wrote: On Friday, 4 August 2017 at 19:27:13 UTC, SCev wrote: [...] Well, according to the blog entry, the Rust plugin was a side project for an intern While this is official support, it seems they are not really adding a lot more manpower behind it, it will mostly remain the work for this intern They dont have plans for a standalone rust ide, like clion for c++ In other words, it really didnt cost them much to support this plugin And I see very little commercial incentive for them to support D I think a community support for the Dlang intellij plugin is our best hope we can start a kickstarter project and donate money to them .. might work I would donate to them if they also include a refactoring tool this is because of the way you think that D doesn't have that missing traction... people on this forum need to change.. i'm disapointed
Re: Jetbrains announce support for rust plugin, show them we want one too!
On Friday, 4 August 2017 at 19:27:13 UTC, SCev wrote: yes, but would be cool to have official support from jetbrains, they know their ide/plugin API better than anyone else, so it'd speed up / improve dev of the plugin by a lot! Don't stay silent, post comment on their page :D Well, according to the blog entry, the Rust plugin was a side project for an intern While this is official support, it seems they are not really adding a lot more manpower behind it, it will mostly remain the work for this intern They dont have plans for a standalone rust ide, like clion for c++ In other words, it really didnt cost them much to support this plugin And I see very little commercial incentive for them to support D I think a community support for the Dlang intellij plugin is our best hope we can start a kickstarter project and donate money to them .. might work I would donate to them if they also include a refactoring tool
Re: Jetbrains announce support for rust plugin, show them we want one too!
On Friday, 4 August 2017 at 18:36:56 UTC, Ali wrote: On Friday, 4 August 2017 at 18:15:47 UTC, SCev wrote: Just today, jetbrains announced their official support for the rust plugin I'm sure they'll do something for D if we ask them, don't stay silent!! show them you want something Leave a comment in their blog for a D support! too! We can do it! https://blog.jetbrains.com/blog/2017/08/04/official-support-for-open-source-rust-plugin-for-intellij-idea-clion-and-other-jetbrains-ides/ there is already a pluggin for D, https://github.com/intellij-dlanguage/intellij-dlanguage not officially supported by Jetbrains seems to be under active development yes, but would be cool to have official support from jetbrains, they know their ide/plugin API better than anyone else, so it'd speed up / improve dev of the plugin by a lot! Don't stay silent, post comment on their page :D
Re: Jetbrains announce support for rust plugin, show them we want one too!
On Friday, 4 August 2017 at 18:15:47 UTC, SCev wrote: Just today, jetbrains announced their official support for the rust plugin I'm sure they'll do something for D if we ask them, don't stay silent!! show them you want something Leave a comment in their blog for a D support! too! We can do it! https://blog.jetbrains.com/blog/2017/08/04/official-support-for-open-source-rust-plugin-for-intellij-idea-clion-and-other-jetbrains-ides/ there is already a pluggin for D, https://github.com/intellij-dlanguage/intellij-dlanguage not officially supported by Jetbrains seems to be under active development
Jetbrains announce support for rust plugin, show them we want one too!
Just today, jetbrains announced their official support for the rust plugin I'm sure they'll do something for D if we ask them, don't stay silent!! show them you want something Leave a comment in their blog for a D support! too! We can do it! https://blog.jetbrains.com/blog/2017/08/04/official-support-for-open-source-rust-plugin-for-intellij-idea-clion-and-other-jetbrains-ides/
