Re: Discovery of quantum vibrations in brain microtubules confirms Hameroff/Penrose consciousness theory basis

On Fri, Jan 17, 2014 at 10:38:28PM -0600, Jason Resch wrote: > Russell, > > What are your thoughts regarding > compatibilism? > Do you consider it a cop-out? > > Jason > I think it largely irrelevant, as it is clear we don't live in a deterministic w

Re: Discovery of quantum vibrations in brain microtubules confirms Hameroff/Penrose consciousness theory basis

On Sat, Jan 18, 2014 at 07:19:37AM -0800, Edgar L. Owen wrote: > Russell, > > Yes, I'm familiar with that and just posted a journal reference to it. But > it's an incorrect understanding. What is really important here is RATIONAL > UNpredictability, not IRrationality. > > This is just rationall

Re: Discovery of quantum vibrations in brain microtubules confirms Hameroff/Penrose consciousness theory basis

On 19 January 2014 18:33, Russell Standish wrote: > > > > So much for free will, except as a synonym for instinct, unconscious > urges > > and rational unpredictability. > > > > That's exactly how I use the term "free will". What other possible > meanings might it have? > People seem to think al

Re: Discovery of quantum vibrations in brain microtubules confirms Hameroff/Penrose consciousness theory basis

On Sat, Jan 18, 2014 at 05:56:23PM +1300, LizR wrote: > On 18 January 2014 13:33, Russell Standish wrote: > > > On Fri, Jan 17, 2014 at 04:08:08PM -0800, Edgar L. Owen wrote: > > > Russell, > > > > > > PS: On second thought maybe we don't agree completely. Though free will > > is > > > quantum ra

Re: Discovery of quantum vibrations in brain microtubules confirms Hameroff/Penrose consciousness theory basis

On Fri, Jan 17, 2014 at 10:40:51PM -0600, Jason Resch wrote: > On Fri, Jan 17, 2014 at 6:33 PM, Russell Standish > wrote: > > > On Fri, Jan 17, 2014 at 04:08:08PM -0800, Edgar L. Owen wrote: > > > Russell, > > > > > > PS: On second thought maybe we don't agree completely. Though free will > > is

Re: Discovery of quantum vibrations in brain microtubules confirms Hameroff/Penrose consciousness theory basis

On Fri, Jan 17, 2014 at 08:05:03PM -0800, meekerdb wrote: > On 1/17/2014 4:33 PM, Russell Standish wrote: > >>Their actions aren't irrational, they just aren't completely determined by > >>>their environments. > >>> > >Rational beings are completely determined by their > >environment. > > Not if t

Re: Discovery of quantum vibrations in brain microtubules confirms Hameroff/Penrose consciousness theory basis

On Sat, Jan 18, 2014 at 07:06:48PM +1300, LizR wrote: > On 18 January 2014 18:49, meekerdb wrote: > > > On 1/17/2014 7:33 PM, LizR wrote: > > > > Surprisingly, perhaps, such acts sometimes deliver payoffs to the actor. > >> > > > > Yes, for example, in cases where doing something is better tha

Re: Discovery of quantum vibrations in brain microtubules confirms Hameroff/Penrose consciousness theory basis

Bruno, That's not an 'argument'. You are simply stating an hypothesis without any logical supporting argument. As to your second point you are talking about clock time, not p-time. You still don't understand the difference which I've described in exhausting detail... Moving clocks have nothing

Re: Discovery of quantum vibrations in brain microtubules confirms Hameroff/Penrose consciousness theory basis

Russell, Yes, I'm familiar with that and just posted a journal reference to it. But it's an incorrect understanding. What is really important here is RATIONAL UNpredictability, not IRrationality. This is just rationally outsmarting your competitor by figuring out what he thinks you are going t

Re: Discovery of quantum vibrations in brain microtubules confirms Hameroff/Penrose consciousness theory basis

Brent, First, there are NO "possibilities in the future". The future does not exist and thus there is no content that can ascribed to it. What we have is the problem of how nature is to align separate spacetime fragments in the PRESENT moment when an event common to them occurs, necessitating

Re: Discovery of quantum vibrations in brain microtubules confirms Hameroff/Penrose consciousness theory basis

Natural selection can favour ‘irrational’ behaviour J. M. McNamara1, P. C. Trimmer2 and A. I. Houston2 1School of Mathematics, University of Bristol, University Walk, Bristol BS8 1TW, UK 2School of Biological Sciences, University of Bristol, Woodland Road, Bristol BS8 1UG, UK e-mail: pete.trim.

Re: Discovery of quantum vibrations in brain microtubules confirms Hameroff/Penrose consciousness theory basis

On 18 Jan 2014, at 01:01, Russell Standish wrote: On Sat, Jan 18, 2014 at 12:10:23PM +1300, LizR wrote: On 18 January 2014 11:34, meekerdb wrote: It doesn't mean anything. There are microtubles in all cells. So why don't I think with my penis...oh...never mind. :-) Teehee. You're no

Re: Discovery of quantum vibrations in brain microtubules confirms Hameroff/Penrose consciousness theory basis

On 17 Jan 2014, at 18:04, Edgar L. Owen wrote: John, I give a fairly detailed answer to what quantum randomness is and what it applies to in my New Topic post "Another shot at how spacetime emerges from computational reality". You did not answer the argument that there is no computationa

Re: Discovery of quantum vibrations in brain microtubules confirms Hameroff/Penrose consciousness theory basis

On 17 Jan 2014, at 17:57, John Clark wrote: On Fri, Jan 17, 2014 at 11:23 AM, Edgar L. Owen wrote: > I give a coherent definition of free will in my book on Reality. Free will is simply the fact that some bounded system generates actions that are not entirely determined by its environme

Re: Discovery of quantum vibrations in brain microtubules confirms Hameroff/Penrose consciousness theory basis

On 18 January 2014 18:49, meekerdb wrote: > On 1/17/2014 7:33 PM, LizR wrote: > > Surprisingly, perhaps, such acts sometimes deliver payoffs to the actor. >> > > Yes, for example, in cases where doing something is better than doing > nothing. > > > Or where it's important that your action not

Re: Discovery of quantum vibrations in brain microtubules confirms Hameroff/Penrose consciousness theory basis

On 1/17/2014 7:33 PM, LizR wrote: Surprisingly, perhaps, such acts sometimes deliver payoffs to the actor. Yes, for example, in cases where doing something is better than doing nothing. Or where it's important that your action not be predictable. Poker anyone? Brent -- You received th

Re: Discovery of quantum vibrations in brain microtubules confirms Hameroff/Penrose consciousness theory basis

On 18 January 2014 17:38, Jason Resch wrote: > What are your thoughts regarding > compatibilism? > Do you consider it a cop-out? > > It appears to say that "free will" is being able to act without interference from others, or words to that effect. Thi

Re: Discovery of quantum vibrations in brain microtubules confirms Hameroff/Penrose consciousness theory basis

On 18 January 2014 13:33, Russell Standish wrote: > On Fri, Jan 17, 2014 at 04:08:08PM -0800, Edgar L. Owen wrote: > > Russell, > > > > PS: On second thought maybe we don't agree completely. Though free will > is > > quantum random based (we agree on that), it doesn't mean that it is > > "irratio

Re: Discovery of quantum vibrations in brain microtubules confirms Hameroff/Penrose consciousness theory basis

On Fri, Jan 17, 2014 at 6:33 PM, Russell Standish wrote: > On Fri, Jan 17, 2014 at 04:08:08PM -0800, Edgar L. Owen wrote: > > Russell, > > > > PS: On second thought maybe we don't agree completely. Though free will > is > > quantum random based (we agree on that), it doesn't mean that it is > > "i

Re: Discovery of quantum vibrations in brain microtubules confirms Hameroff/Penrose consciousness theory basis

On Fri, Jan 17, 2014 at 6:01 PM, Russell Standish wrote: > On Sat, Jan 18, 2014 at 12:10:23PM +1300, LizR wrote: > > On 18 January 2014 11:34, meekerdb wrote: > > > > > It doesn't mean anything. There are microtubles in all cells. So why > > > don't I think with my penis...oh...never mind. :-

RE: Discovery of quantum vibrations in brain microtubules confirms Hameroff/Penrose consciousness theory basis

From: everything-list@googlegroups.com [mailto:everything-list@googlegroups.com] On Behalf Of LizR Sent: Friday, January 17, 2014 7:34 PM To: everything-list@googlegroups.com Subject: Re: Discovery of quantum vibrations in brain microtubules confirms Hameroff/Penrose consciousness theory

Re: Discovery of quantum vibrations in brain microtubules confirms Hameroff/Penrose consciousness theory basis

On 1/17/2014 4:33 PM, Russell Standish wrote: Their actions aren't irrational, they just aren't completely determined by >their environments. > Rational beings are completely determined by their environment. Not if they have rational opponents. Brent -- You received this message because you

Re: Discovery of quantum vibrations in brain microtubules confirms Hameroff/Penrose consciousness theory basis

On 1/17/2014 4:08 PM, Edgar L. Owen wrote: Russell, PS: On second thought maybe we don't agree completely. Though free will is quantum random based (we agree on that), it doesn't mean that it is "irrational". And conversely, just making them deterministic wouldn't mean they were rational. Br

Re: Discovery of quantum vibrations in brain microtubules confirms Hameroff/Penrose consciousness theory basis

On 18 January 2014 15:42, Russell Standish wrote: > Irrational acts would be those where no such analysis took place - > such as acting on a hunch, or going by gut instinct, or just going > beserk. > But something caused that person to perform that action. Maybe Instinct or unconscious processin

Re: Discovery of quantum vibrations in brain microtubules confirms Hameroff/Penrose consciousness theory basis

On Sat, Jan 18, 2014 at 02:32:29PM +1300, LizR wrote: > On 18 January 2014 13:01, Russell Standish wrote: > > > Exactly. Quantum superposition within microtubules seems an unlikely > > source of computational power within the brain. Quantum randomness is > > more likely to occur due to thermal fl

Re: Discovery of quantum vibrations in brain microtubules confirms Hameroff/Penrose consciousness theory basis

On 18 January 2014 13:01, Russell Standish wrote: > On Sat, Jan 18, 2014 at 12:10:23PM +1300, LizR wrote: > > On 18 January 2014 11:34, meekerdb wrote: > > > > > It doesn't mean anything. There are microtubles in all cells. So why > > > don't I think with my penis...oh...never mind. :-) > >

Re: Discovery of quantum vibrations in brain microtubules confirms Hameroff/Penrose consciousness theory basis

On 1/17/2014 9:04 AM, Edgar L. Owen wrote: I give a fairly detailed answer to what quantum randomness is and what it applies to in my New Topic post "Another shot at how spacetime emerges from computational reality". Basically nature must choose randomly when it aligns the separate spacetime

Re: Discovery of quantum vibrations in brain microtubules confirms Hameroff/Penrose consciousness theory basis

On Fri, Jan 17, 2014 at 04:08:08PM -0800, Edgar L. Owen wrote: > Russell, > > PS: On second thought maybe we don't agree completely. Though free will is > quantum random based (we agree on that), it doesn't mean that it is > "irrational". > > If human actions and the actions of other biologica

Re: Discovery of quantum vibrations in brain microtubules confirms Hameroff/Penrose consciousness theory basis

Russell, PS: On second thought maybe we don't agree completely. Though free will is quantum random based (we agree on that), it doesn't mean that it is "irrational". If human actions and the actions of other biological organisms weren't basically rational they couldn't function or survive in

Re: Discovery of quantum vibrations in brain microtubules confirms Hameroff/Penrose consciousness theory basis

Russell, Gosh, somebody on this list is actually nice enough to volunteer they agree with me on something. Very refreshing! Thanks! Edgar On Friday, January 17, 2014 7:01:26 PM UTC-5, Russell Standish wrote: > > On Sat, Jan 18, 2014 at 12:10:23PM +1300, LizR wrote: > > On 18 January 2014 11:

Re: Discovery of quantum vibrations in brain microtubules confirms Hameroff/Penrose consciousness theory basis

On Sat, Jan 18, 2014 at 12:10:23PM +1300, LizR wrote: > On 18 January 2014 11:34, meekerdb wrote: > > > It doesn't mean anything. There are microtubles in all cells. So why > > don't I think with my penis...oh...never mind. :-) > > > > Teehee. You're not the messiah, you're a very naught boy

Re: Discovery of quantum vibrations in brain microtubules confirms Hameroff/Penrose consciousness theory basis

On 18 January 2014 11:34, meekerdb wrote: > It doesn't mean anything. There are microtubles in all cells. So why > don't I think with my penis...oh...never mind. :-) > Teehee. You're not the messiah, you're a very naught boy! I thought Tegmark showed that the Penrose theory is unlikely (by

Re: Discovery of quantum vibrations in brain microtubules confirms Hameroff/Penrose consciousness theory basis

It doesn't mean anything. There are microtubles in all cells. So why don't I think with my penis...oh...never mind. :-) Brent On 1/17/2014 4:46 AM, Edgar L. Owen wrote: All, This has nothing to do with consciousness, but it may have something to do with the origin of free will. Edgar

Re: Discovery of quantum vibrations in brain microtubules confirms Hameroff/Penrose consciousness theory basis

John, How about reading my new topic post on "another shot at how spacetime emerges from computational reality" that explains it before commenting? I think you missed the context of the first of this thread where that was referenced... Edgar On Friday, January 17, 2014 3:06:12 PM UTC-5, John

Re: Discovery of quantum vibrations in brain microtubules confirms Hameroff/Penrose consciousness theory basis

On Fri, Jan 17, 2014 at 12:04 PM, Edgar L. Owen wrote: > I give a fairly detailed answer to what quantum randomness is [...] > Basically nature must choose randomly > So randomness is random. > when it aligns the separate spacetime networks > I don't see how bringing in spacetime networks adds

Re: Discovery of quantum vibrations in brain microtubules confirms Hameroff/Penrose consciousness theory basis

John, I give a fairly detailed answer to what quantum randomness is and what it applies to in my New Topic post "Another shot at how spacetime emerges from computational reality". Basically nature must choose randomly when it aligns the separate spacetime networks that arise from particle prop

Re: Discovery of quantum vibrations in brain microtubules confirms Hameroff/Penrose consciousness theory basis

On Fri, Jan 17, 2014 at 11:23 AM, Edgar L. Owen wrote: > I give a coherent definition of free will in my book on Reality. Free > will is simply the fact that some bounded system generates actions that are > not entirely determined by its environmental inputs. > OK, then the term "free will" is s

Re: Discovery of quantum vibrations in brain microtubules confirms Hameroff/Penrose consciousness theory basis

John, I agree completely that free will must be well defined before it can be intelligently discussed, and I agree that the usual definitions are often nonsensical. (Particularly the notion that free will is the ability of some higher self to override base instinctual desires.) I give a cohere

Re: Discovery of quantum vibrations in brain microtubules confirms Hameroff/Penrose consciousness theory basis

On Fri, Jan 17, 2014 at 7:46 AM, Edgar L. Owen wrote: > This has nothing to do with consciousness, but it may have something to > do with the origin of free will. > It's just amazing how many philosophers can devote so much time and effort trying to figure out the origin of free will but never t

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