Re: Discovery of quantum vibrations in brain microtubules confirms Hameroff/Penrose consciousness theory basis

2017-05-13 Thread John Clark
On Sun, May 7, 2017 at 12:04 AM, Kip Ingram wrote: ​> ​ > Free will seems to become the focal points of conversations like this much > more than it should, though. > ​I could not agree more! Free will is a idea so bad it's not even wrong.​ ​I don't think anything in

Re: Discovery of quantum vibrations in brain microtubules confirms Hameroff/Penrose consciousness theory basis

2017-05-08 Thread Bruno Marchal
On 07 May 2017, at 06:04, Kip Ingram wrote: The initial reply to this post stated the need to define free will before seeking its origins. My own definition is "the injection of new information into a dynamic system." Not the injection of randomness, but rather the injection of

Re: Discovery of quantum vibrations in brain microtubules confirms Hameroff/Penrose consciousness theory basis

2017-05-07 Thread Stathis Papaioannou
The initial reply to this post stated the need to define free will before seeking its origins. My own definition is "the injection of new information into a dynamic system." Not the injection of randomness, but rather the injection of *information*. As noted in other replies, the only avenue

Re: Discovery of quantum vibrations in brain microtubules confirms Hameroff/Penrose consciousness theory basis

2017-05-07 Thread Brent Meeker
On 5/6/2017 9:04 PM, Kip Ingram wrote: The initial reply to this post stated the need to define free will before seeking its origins. My own definition is "the injection of new information into a dynamic system." Not the injection of randomness, but rather the injection of /information/.

Re: Discovery of quantum vibrations in brain microtubules confirms Hameroff/Penrose consciousness theory basis

2017-05-07 Thread Kip Ingram
The initial reply to this post stated the need to define free will before seeking its origins. My own definition is "the injection of new information into a dynamic system." Not the injection of randomness, but rather the injection of *information*. As noted in other replies, the only

Re: Discovery of quantum vibrations in brain microtubules confirms Hameroff/Penrose consciousness theory basis

2014-02-12 Thread Bruno Marchal
On 11 Feb 2014, at 17:35, ghib...@gmail.com wrote: On Sunday, February 2, 2014 6:36:24 PM UTC, John Clark wrote: On Sun, Feb 2, 2014 at 4:29 AM, Bruno Marchal mar...@ulb.ac.be wrote: Although it doesn't necessarily follow the digital transformation of consciousness is perfectly

Re: Discovery of quantum vibrations in brain microtubules confirms Hameroff/Penrose consciousness theory basis

2014-02-11 Thread ghibbsa
On Sunday, February 2, 2014 6:36:24 PM UTC, John Clark wrote: On Sun, Feb 2, 2014 at 4:29 AM, Bruno Marchal mar...@ulb.ac.bejavascript: wrote: Although it doesn't necessarily follow the digital transformation of consciousness is perfectly consistent with the matter in the desk I'm

Re: Discovery of quantum vibrations in brain microtubules confirms Hameroff/Penrose consciousness theory basis

2014-02-11 Thread Platonist Guitar Cowboy
On Tue, Feb 11, 2014 at 5:35 PM, ghib...@gmail.com wrote: On Sunday, February 2, 2014 6:36:24 PM UTC, John Clark wrote: On Sun, Feb 2, 2014 at 4:29 AM, Bruno Marchal mar...@ulb.ac.be wrote: Although it doesn't necessarily follow the digital transformation of consciousness is perfectly

Re: Discovery of quantum vibrations in brain microtubules confirms Hameroff/Penrose consciousness theory basis

2014-02-06 Thread John Clark
On Wed, Feb 5, 2014 at 1:33 PM, Edgar L. Owen edgaro...@att.net wrote: Forget stops. OK, if they're still moving fast relative to each other then each will see the others clock running slow. Just assume A at the point just before he stops and is still decellerating at 1g TO stop. The

Re: Discovery of quantum vibrations in brain microtubules confirms Hameroff/Penrose consciousness theory basis

2014-02-05 Thread Edgar L. Owen
John, 1. No. because both A and B experience the exact same 1g acceleration for the entire trip. A's watch doesn't suddenly spring back thousands of year in the second he finally cuts off his acceleration. 2. This example comes from Kip Thorne who provides the calculations. If the results of

Re: Discovery of quantum vibrations in brain microtubules confirms Hameroff/Penrose consciousness theory basis

2014-02-05 Thread John Clark
On Wed, Feb 5, 2014 at 11:02 AM, Edgar L. Owen edgaro...@att.net wrote: both A and B experience the exact same 1g acceleration for the entire trip. Not if A comes to his destination AND STOPS. A's watch doesn't suddenly spring back thousands of year in the second he finally cuts off his

Re: Discovery of quantum vibrations in brain microtubules confirms Hameroff/Penrose consciousness theory basis

2014-02-05 Thread Edgar L. Owen
John, No, not at all. Forget stops. Just assume A at the point just before he stops and is still decellerating at 1g TO stop. The situation is exactly the same except for a few nanoseconds. Also the apparent slowing of both A and B's clocks relative to each other is due to their relative

Re: Discovery of quantum vibrations in brain microtubules confirms Hameroff/Penrose consciousness theory basis

2014-02-04 Thread John Clark
On Mon, Feb 3, 2014 at 3:29 PM, Edgar L. Owen edgaro...@att.net wrote The question is why when A gets to the center of the galaxy and stops That's the key point to remember, A comes to a stop. And during the deceleration process things would no longer be symmetrical, A would see B's clock

Re: Discovery of quantum vibrations in brain microtubules confirms Hameroff/Penrose consciousness theory basis

2014-02-03 Thread John Clark
On Mon, Feb 3, 2014 at 2:40 AM, Bruno Marchal marc...@ulb.ac.be wrote: you talk like if the object on your desk are localized. Are you claiming that a computer can emulate a intelligent conscious being but can't emulate a desk? I am not saying that. I am saying that the desk apparent

Re: Discovery of quantum vibrations in brain microtubules confirms Hameroff/Penrose consciousness theory basis

2014-02-03 Thread John Clark
On Sun, Feb 2, 2014 at 5:15 PM, Jason Resch jasonre...@gmail.com wrote: Do you troll as a hobby or professionally? Oh I think you could call me a professional by now, in fact because I've been making many of these exact same points since the early 1990s I have been given an award by the

Re: Discovery of quantum vibrations in brain microtubules confirms Hameroff/Penrose consciousness theory basis

2014-02-03 Thread Bruno Marchal
On 03 Feb 2014, at 18:08, John Clark wrote: On Mon, Feb 3, 2014 at 2:40 AM, Bruno Marchal marc...@ulb.ac.be wrote: you talk like if the object on your desk are localized. Are you claiming that a computer can emulate a intelligent conscious being but can't emulate a desk? I am not

Re: Discovery of quantum vibrations in brain microtubules confirms Hameroff/Penrose consciousness theory basis

2014-02-03 Thread Edgar L. Owen
John, A couple of points in response. Yes, I agree that both A and B see each other's clocks running slower than their own DURING the trip. This is standard relativity theory mostly Lorentz transform if we just take non-accelerated relative motion. Also note that, contrary to your statement,

Re: Discovery of quantum vibrations in brain microtubules confirms Hameroff/Penrose consciousness theory basis

2014-02-03 Thread LizR
On 4 February 2014 06:19, John Clark johnkcl...@gmail.com wrote: On Sun, Feb 2, 2014 at 5:15 PM, Jason Resch jasonre...@gmail.com wrote: Do you troll as a hobby or professionally? Oh I think you could call me a professional by now, in fact because I've been making many of these exact

Re: Discovery of quantum vibrations in brain microtubules confirms Hameroff/Penrose consciousness theory basis

2014-02-03 Thread LizR
On 4 February 2014 09:29, Edgar L. Owen edgaro...@att.net wrote: John, A couple of points in response. Yes, I agree that both A and B see each other's clocks running slower than their own DURING the trip. This is standard relativity theory mostly Lorentz transform if we just take

Re: Discovery of quantum vibrations in brain microtubules confirms Hameroff/Penrose consciousness theory basis

2014-02-03 Thread Edgar L. Owen
Liz, You keep missing my point. There is NO inertial frame in this example, neither A nor B's frame is inertial. Neither A nor B are in an inertial frame in this example. The specific point of the example is that they BOTH experience exactly the same NON-inertial 1g acceleration for the

Re: Discovery of quantum vibrations in brain microtubules confirms Hameroff/Penrose consciousness theory basis

2014-02-02 Thread Edgar L. Owen
Brent, The centrifuge is totally unnecessary because B back on earth already IS experiencing the exact same 1g gravitational acceleration that A is. B doesn't need any centrifuge to experience 1g. That's why those specs were part of my case, so acceleration could be discounted... Edgar On

Re: Discovery of quantum vibrations in brain microtubules confirms Hameroff/Penrose consciousness theory basis

2014-02-02 Thread Edgar L. Owen
Brent, and anyone else who wants to answer, First, thanks for your patience and consideration in answering my questions. I appreciate it, and hope you will also take the time to address what I see is the crux of the journey to the center of the galaxy case below. To review: the case of A

Re: Discovery of quantum vibrations in brain microtubules confirms Hameroff/Penrose consciousness theory basis

2014-02-02 Thread John Clark
On Sat, Feb 1, 2014 at 1:25 PM, Edgar L. Owen edgaro...@att.net wrote: I stated that A began his trip from earth ORBIT, not from blasting off from earth's surface, so A's acceleration is 1g for the ENTIRE trip. Then each would see the others clock as running slower than his own. You might

Re: Discovery of quantum vibrations in brain microtubules confirms Hameroff/Penrose consciousness theory basis

2014-02-02 Thread Bruno Marchal
On 01 Feb 2014, at 19:55, John Clark wrote: On Sat, Feb 1, 2014 at 4:24 AM, Bruno Marchal marc...@ulb.ac.be wrote: then feel free to invoke some non-comp or invoke more comp if that floats your boat, I no longer care. I've given up trying to find a consistent definition of your silly

Re: Discovery of quantum vibrations in brain microtubules confirms Hameroff/Penrose consciousness theory basis

2014-02-02 Thread John Clark
On Sun, Feb 2, 2014 at 4:29 AM, Bruno Marchal marc...@ulb.ac.be wrote: Although it doesn't necessarily follow the digital transformation of consciousness is perfectly consistent with the matter in the desk I'm pounding my hand on right now as simply being a subroutine in the johnkclak

Re: Discovery of quantum vibrations in brain microtubules confirms Hameroff/Penrose consciousness theory basis

2014-02-02 Thread Jason Resch
On Sun, Feb 2, 2014 at 12:36 PM, John Clark johnkcl...@gmail.com wrote: On Sun, Feb 2, 2014 at 4:29 AM, Bruno Marchal marc...@ulb.ac.be wrote: Although it doesn't necessarily follow the digital transformation of consciousness is perfectly consistent with the matter in the desk I'm

Re: Discovery of quantum vibrations in brain microtubules confirms Hameroff/Penrose consciousness theory basis

2014-02-02 Thread Platonist Guitar Cowboy
On Sun, Feb 2, 2014 at 11:15 PM, Jason Resch jasonre...@gmail.com wrote: On Sun, Feb 2, 2014 at 12:36 PM, John Clark johnkcl...@gmail.com wrote: On Sun, Feb 2, 2014 at 4:29 AM, Bruno Marchal marc...@ulb.ac.be wrote: Although it doesn't necessarily follow the digital transformation

Re: Discovery of quantum vibrations in brain microtubules confirms Hameroff/Penrose consciousness theory basis

2014-02-02 Thread Bruno Marchal
On 02 Feb 2014, at 19:36, John Clark wrote: On Sun, Feb 2, 2014 at 4:29 AM, Bruno Marchal marc...@ulb.ac.be wrote: Although it doesn't necessarily follow the digital transformation of consciousness is perfectly consistent with the matter in the desk I'm pounding my hand on right

Re: Discovery of quantum vibrations in brain microtubules confirms Hameroff/Penrose consciousness theory basis

2014-02-01 Thread Bruno Marchal
On 31 Jan 2014, at 20:57, John Clark wrote: On Fri, Jan 31, 2014 Bruno Marchal marc...@ulb.ac.be wrote: I don't need a proof because I have something better, I have direct experience of the subjective. Nice for you. Indeed. But that does not invalidate the point that you can't prove

Re: Discovery of quantum vibrations in brain microtubules confirms Hameroff/Penrose consciousness theory basis

2014-02-01 Thread Kim Jones
On 1 Feb 2014, at 8:24 pm, Bruno Marchal marc...@ulb.ac.be wrote: Your endless homemade acronyms that you pretend every educated person should know get tiresome too. Try Vitamin B 12. It is known to have a positive effect on the mind's ability to accept new input. Failing that, you might

Re: Discovery of quantum vibrations in brain microtubules confirms Hameroff/Penrose consciousness theory basis

2014-02-01 Thread Kim Jones
Actually, John Clark wrote... On 1 Feb 2014, at 8:34 pm, Kim Jones kimjo...@ozemail.com.au wrote: On 1 Feb 2014, at 8:24 pm, Bruno Marchal marc...@ulb.ac.be wrote: Your endless homemade acronyms that you pretend every educated person should know get tiresome too. Try Vitamin B

Re: Discovery of quantum vibrations in brain microtubules confirms Hameroff/Penrose consciousness theory basis

2014-02-01 Thread Edgar L. Owen
Hi John, One might think it was the acceleration that slowed time on A's clock, BUT the point is that A's acceleration was only 1g throughout the entire trip which was exactly EQUAL to B's gravitational acceleration back on earth. So if the accelerations were exactly equal during the entire

Re: Discovery of quantum vibrations in brain microtubules confirms Hameroff/Penrose consciousness theory basis

2014-02-01 Thread Edgar L. Owen
Brent, But see my response to John. How can that work since the accelerations are both = 1g throughout the entire trip? By the Principle of Equivalence shouldn't they have the same effect on time then? But if you say it's not the acceleration, but the distance through spacetime, then the

Re: Discovery of quantum vibrations in brain microtubules confirms Hameroff/Penrose consciousness theory basis

2014-02-01 Thread Edgar L. Owen
Liz, But see my responses to John and Brent on this .. The question I'd ask you is why A's frame cannot be put into a single inertial frame of reference if his 1g acceleration was exactly the same as B's 1g acceleration during the ENTIRE trip? Are you saying that the simple fact that the

Re: Discovery of quantum vibrations in brain microtubules confirms Hameroff/Penrose consciousness theory basis

2014-02-01 Thread John Clark
On Sat, Feb 1, 2014 at 7:57 AM, Edgar L. Owen edgaro...@att.net wrote: One might think it was the acceleration that slowed time on A's clock, BUT the point is that A's acceleration was only 1g throughout the entire trip which was exactly EQUAL to B's gravitational acceleration back on earth.

Re: Discovery of quantum vibrations in brain microtubules confirms Hameroff/Penrose consciousness theory basis

2014-02-01 Thread Edgar L. Owen
John, First, 2 substantial errors in your post below. 1. I stated that A began his trip from earth ORBIT, not from blasting off from earth's surface, so A's acceleration is 1g for the ENTIRE trip. But even if he blasted off from earth's surface at 2g that would have a negligible and

Re: Discovery of quantum vibrations in brain microtubules confirms Hameroff/Penrose consciousness theory basis

2014-02-01 Thread John Clark
On Sat, Feb 1, 2014 at 4:24 AM, Bruno Marchal marc...@ulb.ac.be wrote: then feel free to invoke some non-comp or invoke more comp if that floats your boat, I no longer care. I've given up trying to find a consistent definition of your silly little word comp that is used on this list and

Re: Discovery of quantum vibrations in brain microtubules confirms Hameroff/Penrose consciousness theory basis

2014-02-01 Thread meekerdb
On 2/1/2014 9:46 AM, John Clark wrote: On Sat, Feb 1, 2014 at 7:57 AM, Edgar L. Owen edgaro...@att.net mailto:edgaro...@att.net wrote: One might think it was the acceleration that slowed time on A's clock, BUT the point is that A's acceleration was only 1g throughout the entire

Re: Discovery of quantum vibrations in brain microtubules confirms Hameroff/Penrose consciousness theory basis

2014-02-01 Thread LizR
For a trip of interstellar distance, the time dilation caused by getting into low earth orbit will be insignificant. Alice and Bob can compare their watches when Alice is in orbit, and see that they are still synchronised to high accuracy, at least as far as humans are concerned - there might be a

Re: Discovery of quantum vibrations in brain microtubules confirms Hameroff/Penrose consciousness theory basis

2014-01-31 Thread meekerdb
On 1/31/2014 10:59 AM, John Clark wrote: On Thu, Jan 30, 2014 at 4:36 PM, Edgar L. Owen edgaro...@att.net mailto:edgaro...@att.net wrote: A is traveling at near light speed most of the trip. That's why B sees A's clock slow Yes. And from A's point of view he's standing still and B

Re: Discovery of quantum vibrations in brain microtubules confirms Hameroff/Penrose consciousness theory basis

2014-01-31 Thread LizR
On 1 February 2014 07:59, John Clark johnkcl...@gmail.com wrote: On Thu, Jan 30, 2014 at 4:36 PM, Edgar L. Owen edgaro...@att.net wrote: A is traveling at near light speed most of the trip. That's why B sees A's clock slow Yes. And from A's point of view he's standing still and B is

Re: Discovery of quantum vibrations in brain microtubules confirms Hameroff/Penrose consciousness theory basis

2014-01-31 Thread Edgar L. Owen
Brent, PS on quoted post: If, as you say, A's proper time (comoving clock) is running much slower all during (most of) the trip to the center of the galaxy, then doesn't that mean A would observe all the intergalactic stuff passing by him at MUCH greater than the speed of light? How would

Re: Discovery of quantum vibrations in brain microtubules confirms Hameroff/Penrose consciousness theory basis

2014-01-31 Thread Bruno Marchal
On 30 Jan 2014, at 21:14, John Clark wrote: On Wed, Jan 29, 2014 at 2:06 PM, Bruno Marchal marc...@ulb.ac.be wrote: the external objective environment (the weather, a syringe full of drugs, a punch to the face) can cause a big subjective change. I have no doubt that this is true. The

Re: Discovery of quantum vibrations in brain microtubules confirms Hameroff/Penrose consciousness theory basis

2014-01-31 Thread John Clark
On Thu, Jan 30, 2014 at 4:36 PM, Edgar L. Owen edgaro...@att.net wrote: A is traveling at near light speed most of the trip. That's why B sees A's clock slow Yes. And from A's point of view he's standing still and B is traveling at near light speed, so A sees B's clock running slow. Both

Re: Discovery of quantum vibrations in brain microtubules confirms Hameroff/Penrose consciousness theory basis

2014-01-31 Thread John Clark
On Fri, Jan 31, 2014 Bruno Marchal marc...@ulb.ac.be wrote: I don't need a proof because I have something better, I have direct experience of the subjective. Nice for you. Indeed. But that does not invalidate the point that you can't prove this to an other person, I can't even prove

Re: Discovery of quantum vibrations in brain microtubules confirms Hameroff/Penrose consciousness theory basis

2014-01-30 Thread Bruno Marchal
On 29 Jan 2014, at 21:30, meekerdb wrote: On 1/29/2014 12:04 AM, Bruno Marchal wrote: On 28 Jan 2014, at 18:53, meekerdb wrote: On 1/28/2014 12:59 AM, Bruno Marchal wrote: The problem is that once you suppress God, you will make Matter into a God, and science into pseudo-religious

Re: Discovery of quantum vibrations in brain microtubules confirms Hameroff/Penrose consciousness theory basis

2014-01-30 Thread Bruno Marchal
On 29 Jan 2014, at 21:50, meekerdb wrote: On 1/29/2014 12:09 AM, Bruno Marchal wrote: On 28 Jan 2014, at 18:57, meekerdb wrote: On 1/28/2014 1:16 AM, Bruno Marchal wrote: That would be like attributing importance to a name, at a place where precisely we should not attribute any

Re: Discovery of quantum vibrations in brain microtubules confirms Hameroff/Penrose consciousness theory basis

2014-01-30 Thread John Clark
On Wed, Jan 29, 2014 at 1:56 PM, Bruno Marchal marc...@ulb.ac.be wrote: Please read Lao-tseu or Plotinus. I have read Lao-tseu but as for Plotinus I've had my fill of ancestor worship for one day. and if you read AUDA, you will see how machine car refer to truth without using a truth

Re: Discovery of quantum vibrations in brain microtubules confirms Hameroff/Penrose consciousness theory basis

2014-01-30 Thread John Clark
On Wed, Jan 29, 2014 at 2:06 PM, Bruno Marchal marc...@ulb.ac.be wrote: the external objective environment (the weather, a syringe full of drugs, a punch to the face) can cause a big subjective change. I have no doubt that this is true. The point is that IF you have a complete 3p theory of

Re: Discovery of quantum vibrations in brain microtubules confirms Hameroff/Penrose consciousness theory basis

2014-01-30 Thread Edgar L. Owen
Brent, So what you are saying is that because everything travels through spacetime at the speed of light in all frames (my STc Principle) and A's path through SPACE is much longer than B's (which is zero) that A's path through time must be correspondingly shorter? At least that's my

Re: Discovery of quantum vibrations in brain microtubules confirms Hameroff/Penrose consciousness theory basis

2014-01-29 Thread Bruno Marchal
On 28 Jan 2014, at 18:53, meekerdb wrote: On 1/28/2014 12:59 AM, Bruno Marchal wrote: The problem is that once you suppress God, you will make Matter into a God, and science into pseudo-religious scientism, with his train of authoritative arguments. why do you think the FPI is still

Re: Discovery of quantum vibrations in brain microtubules confirms Hameroff/Penrose consciousness theory basis

2014-01-29 Thread Bruno Marchal
On 28 Jan 2014, at 18:57, meekerdb wrote: On 1/28/2014 1:16 AM, Bruno Marchal wrote: That would be like attributing importance to a name, at a place where precisely we should not attribute any importance. I would use tao, that would make the results looking new-age. Use any another name,

Re: Discovery of quantum vibrations in brain microtubules confirms Hameroff/Penrose consciousness theory basis

2014-01-29 Thread Bruno Marchal
On 28 Jan 2014, at 19:01, meekerdb wrote: On 1/28/2014 1:27 AM, Bruno Marchal wrote: But it refers to an immortal person, and singular at that. Yes. Singular. that the main contribution of the Parmenides: the rise of monotheism and the rise of monism. The idea that there is a unique

Re: Discovery of quantum vibrations in brain microtubules confirms Hameroff/Penrose consciousness theory basis

2014-01-29 Thread Bruno Marchal
On 28 Jan 2014, at 19:11, meekerdb wrote: On 1/28/2014 1:47 AM, Jason Resch wrote: Supposing there is a ground of all reality, as some would nominate the strings of string theory and others computations of a universal dovetailer, why would suppose in advance that this GOAR is infinite,

Re: Discovery of quantum vibrations in brain microtubules confirms Hameroff/Penrose consciousness theory basis

2014-01-29 Thread Bruno Marchal
On 28 Jan 2014, at 20:01, John Clark wrote: On Mon, Jan 27, 2014 at 4:05 PM, LizR lizj...@gmail.com wrote: I hope those are real quotes. There are quite a few fake Einstein quotes floating around the web. They were real, real enough to provoke a furious response from thousands of

Re: Discovery of quantum vibrations in brain microtubules confirms Hameroff/Penrose consciousness theory basis

2014-01-29 Thread Edgar L. Owen
Brent, Here's another relativity question I'd like to get your explanation for if I may... In Thorne's 'Black Holes and Time Warps' he gives the following example. Two observers A and B. A leaves earth orbit to travel to the center of the galaxy, 30,100 light year away, using a constant 1g

Re: Discovery of quantum vibrations in brain microtubules confirms Hameroff/Penrose consciousness theory basis

2014-01-29 Thread John Clark
On Mon, Jan 27, 2014 at 3:51 PM, LizR lizj...@gmail.com wrote: The expansion of the universe was discovered in the 1920s Yes, Hubble observed that the universe was expanding in the early 1920s, but only in the late 1990s was it discovered that the universe was not just expanding but

Re: Discovery of quantum vibrations in brain microtubules confirms Hameroff/Penrose consciousness theory basis

2014-01-29 Thread John Clark
On Mon, Jan 27, 2014 at 4:48 PM, LizR lizj...@gmail.com wrote: After all my lessons in logic, I feel duty bound to point out that Einstein only said that he didn't believe in a personal God. No, Einstein had more to say on the subject than just I do not believe in a personal God. Besides not

Re: Discovery of quantum vibrations in brain microtubules confirms Hameroff/Penrose consciousness theory basis

2014-01-29 Thread John Clark
On Tue, Jan 28, 2014 at 2:38 AM, Bruno Marchal marc...@ulb.ac.be wrote: If there is no all encompassing purpose or a goal to existence and if the unknown principle responsible for the existence of the universe is not intelligent and is not conscious and is not a being then do you think it

Re: Discovery of quantum vibrations in brain microtubules confirms Hameroff/Penrose consciousness theory basis

2014-01-29 Thread Platonist Guitar Cowboy
On Wed, Jan 29, 2014 at 5:13 PM, John Clark johnkcl...@gmail.com wrote: On Mon, Jan 27, 2014 at 4:48 PM, LizR lizj...@gmail.com wrote: After all my lessons in logic, I feel duty bound to point out that Einstein only said that he didn't believe in a personal God. No, Einstein had more to

Re: Discovery of quantum vibrations in brain microtubules confirms Hameroff/Penrose consciousness theory basis

2014-01-29 Thread John Clark
On Tue, Jan 28, 2014 at 2:47 AM, Bruno Marchal marc...@ulb.ac.be wrote Forget about solving it, I would much rather read a discourse that clearly and unambiguously explains exactly what the hard problem is. In a nutshell, the difficulty is that a complete 3p explanation of the brain seems

Re: Discovery of quantum vibrations in brain microtubules confirms Hameroff/Penrose consciousness theory basis

2014-01-29 Thread John Clark
On Wed, Jan 29, 2014 at 3:37 AM, Bruno Marchal marc...@ulb.ac.be wrote: atheists are christians. Wow, calling a guy known for disliking religion religious, never heard that one before, at least I never heard it before I was 12. John K Clark -- You received this message because you are

Re: Discovery of quantum vibrations in brain microtubules confirms Hameroff/Penrose consciousness theory basis

2014-01-29 Thread Bruno Marchal
On 29 Jan 2014, at 17:29, John Clark wrote: On Tue, Jan 28, 2014 at 2:38 AM, Bruno Marchal marc...@ulb.ac.be wrote: If there is no all encompassing purpose or a goal to existence and if the unknown principle responsible for the existence of the universe is not intelligent and is not

Re: Discovery of quantum vibrations in brain microtubules confirms Hameroff/Penrose consciousness theory basis

2014-01-29 Thread Bruno Marchal
On 29 Jan 2014, at 17:51, John Clark wrote: On Tue, Jan 28, 2014 at 2:47 AM, Bruno Marchal marc...@ulb.ac.be wrote Forget about solving it, I would much rather read a discourse that clearly and unambiguously explains exactly what the hard problem is. In a nutshell, the difficulty

Re: Discovery of quantum vibrations in brain microtubules confirms Hameroff/Penrose consciousness theory basis

2014-01-29 Thread Bruno Marchal
On 29 Jan 2014, at 18:21, John Clark wrote: On Wed, Jan 29, 2014 at 3:37 AM, Bruno Marchal marc...@ulb.ac.be wrote: atheists are christians. Wow, calling a guy known for disliking religion religious, never heard that one before, at least I never heard it before I was 12. You should

Re: Discovery of quantum vibrations in brain microtubules confirms Hameroff/Penrose consciousness theory basis

2014-01-29 Thread meekerdb
On 1/29/2014 12:04 AM, Bruno Marchal wrote: On 28 Jan 2014, at 18:53, meekerdb wrote: On 1/28/2014 12:59 AM, Bruno Marchal wrote: The problem is that once you suppress God, you will make Matter into a God, and science into pseudo-religious scientism, with his train of authoritative

Re: Discovery of quantum vibrations in brain microtubules confirms Hameroff/Penrose consciousness theory basis

2014-01-29 Thread meekerdb
On 1/29/2014 12:09 AM, Bruno Marchal wrote: On 28 Jan 2014, at 18:57, meekerdb wrote: On 1/28/2014 1:16 AM, Bruno Marchal wrote: That would be like attributing importance to a name, at a place where precisely we should not attribute any importance. I would use tao, that would make the

Re: Discovery of quantum vibrations in brain microtubules confirms Hameroff/Penrose consciousness theory basis

2014-01-29 Thread LizR
On 30 January 2014 04:47, John Clark johnkcl...@gmail.com wrote: On Mon, Jan 27, 2014 at 3:51 PM, LizR lizj...@gmail.com wrote: The expansion of the universe was discovered in the 1920s Yes, Hubble observed that the universe was expanding in the early 1920s, but only in the late 1990s was

Re: Discovery of quantum vibrations in brain microtubules confirms Hameroff/Penrose consciousness theory basis

2014-01-29 Thread LizR
On 30 January 2014 07:56, Bruno Marchal marc...@ulb.ac.be wrote: On 29 Jan 2014, at 17:29, John Clark wrote: And there *might* be a china teapot in orbit around the planet Uranus too, but I doubt it. Sure, that is possible, but the proposition that God is a person or not might have more

Re: Discovery of quantum vibrations in brain microtubules confirms Hameroff/Penrose consciousness theory basis

2014-01-29 Thread LizR
On 30 January 2014 09:50, meekerdb meeke...@verizon.net wrote: Leibniz was so impressed with binary numbers he suggested that 1 and 0 might be the goar. John A. Wheeler also. -- You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups Everything List group. To unsubscribe

Re: Discovery of quantum vibrations in brain microtubules confirms Hameroff/Penrose consciousness theory basis

2014-01-29 Thread LizR
On 30 January 2014 05:13, John Clark johnkcl...@gmail.com wrote: On Mon, Jan 27, 2014 at 4:48 PM, LizR lizj...@gmail.com wrote: After all my lessons in logic, I feel duty bound to point out that Einstein only said that he didn't believe in a personal God. No, Einstein had more to say on

Re: Discovery of quantum vibrations in brain microtubules confirms Hameroff/Penrose consciousness theory basis

2014-01-29 Thread meekerdb
On 1/29/2014 5:19 AM, Edgar L. Owen wrote: Brent, Here's another relativity question I'd like to get your explanation for if I may... In Thorne's 'Black Holes and Time Warps' he gives the following example. Two observers A and B. A leaves earth orbit to travel to the center of the galaxy,

Re: Discovery of quantum vibrations in brain microtubules confirms Hameroff/Penrose consciousness theory basis

2014-01-29 Thread LizR
On 30 January 2014 14:17, meekerdb meeke...@verizon.net wrote: On 1/29/2014 5:19 AM, Edgar L. Owen wrote: Brent, Here's another relativity question I'd like to get your explanation for if I may... In Thorne's 'Black Holes and Time Warps' he gives the following example. Two observers A

Re: Discovery of quantum vibrations in brain microtubules confirms Hameroff/Penrose consciousness theory basis

2014-01-29 Thread meekerdb
On 1/28/2014 6:06 PM, Edgar L. Owen wrote: Brent, That's just your interpretation and you apparently ARE UNABLE to find any authoritative sites to confirm it. Yes, of course the mass interior to a BH collapses into the singularity but that doesn't mean it vanishes from the black hole.

Re: Discovery of quantum vibrations in brain microtubules confirms Hameroff/Penrose consciousness theory basis

2014-01-29 Thread meekerdb
On 1/29/2014 5:39 PM, LizR wrote: On 30 January 2014 14:17, meekerdb meeke...@verizon.net mailto:meeke...@verizon.net wrote: On 1/29/2014 5:19 AM, Edgar L. Owen wrote: Brent, Here's another relativity question I'd like to get your explanation for if I may... In

Re: Discovery of quantum vibrations in brain microtubules confirms Hameroff/Penrose consciousness theory basis

2014-01-28 Thread Bruno Marchal
On 27 Jan 2014, at 19:43, meekerdb wrote: On 1/27/2014 2:28 AM, Bruno Marchal wrote: On 27 Jan 2014, at 02:08, meekerdb wrote: On 1/26/2014 3:15 AM, Bruno Marchal wrote: I have provided the definition. Should I repeat? God is the transcendental reality we bet on, and which is supposed

Re: Discovery of quantum vibrations in brain microtubules confirms Hameroff/Penrose consciousness theory basis

2014-01-28 Thread Bruno Marchal
On 27 Jan 2014, at 19:56, meekerdb wrote: On 1/27/2014 3:20 AM, Bruno Marchal wrote: On 27 Jan 2014, at 06:55, meekerdb wrote: On 1/26/2014 9:19 PM, LizR wrote: On 27 January 2014 17:31, meekerdb meeke...@verizon.net wrote: On 1/26/2014 6:44 PM, LizR wrote: On 27 January 2014 14:08,

Re: Discovery of quantum vibrations in brain microtubules confirms Hameroff/Penrose consciousness theory basis

2014-01-28 Thread Bruno Marchal
On 27 Jan 2014, at 21:48, meekerdb wrote: On 1/27/2014 9:07 AM, Bruno Marchal wrote: it was, of course, a lie what you read about my religious convictions, a lie which is being systematically repeated. I do not believe in a personal God and I have never denied this but have expressed it

Re: Discovery of quantum vibrations in brain microtubules confirms Hameroff/Penrose consciousness theory basis

2014-01-28 Thread Bruno Marchal
On 27 Jan 2014, at 22:05, LizR wrote: I hope those are real quotes. There are quite a few fake Einstein quotes floating around the web. They were real, but taken out of the context. But they made my point. Einstein is a believer, but out of confessional religion. Like Gödel. Bruno

Re: Discovery of quantum vibrations in brain microtubules confirms Hameroff/Penrose consciousness theory basis

2014-01-28 Thread Bruno Marchal
On 27 Jan 2014, at 22:20, meekerdb wrote: On 1/27/2014 12:21 PM, Jason Resch wrote: On Mon, Jan 27, 2014 at 10:51 AM, John Clark johnkcl...@gmail.com wrote: On Sun, Jan 26, 2014 at 2:43 PM, Jason Resch jasonre...@gmail.com wrote: I use the exact same definition of life that

Re: Discovery of quantum vibrations in brain microtubules confirms Hameroff/Penrose consciousness theory basis

2014-01-28 Thread Bruno Marchal
On 27 Jan 2014, at 22:48, LizR wrote: On 28 January 2014 06:07, Bruno Marchal marc...@ulb.ac.be wrote: On 27 Jan 2014, at 17:18, John Clark wrote: On Sun, Jan 26, 2014 Bruno Marchal marc...@ulb.ac.be wrote: John should read the book by Jammer on Einstein's religion. 2/3 of that book is

Re: Discovery of quantum vibrations in brain microtubules confirms Hameroff/Penrose consciousness theory basis

2014-01-28 Thread Bruno Marchal
On 27 Jan 2014, at 22:52, LizR wrote: On 28 January 2014 06:46, John Clark johnkcl...@gmail.com wrote: On Mon, Jan 27, 2014 at 12:07 PM, Bruno Marchal marc...@ulb.ac.be wrote: You seem to take the Aristotelian (naturalist, materialist, physicalist) theology for granted. I've said more

Re: Discovery of quantum vibrations in brain microtubules confirms Hameroff/Penrose consciousness theory basis

2014-01-28 Thread LizR
On 28 January 2014 21:48, Bruno Marchal marc...@ulb.ac.be wrote: On 27 Jan 2014, at 22:05, LizR wrote: I hope those are real quotes. There are quite a few fake Einstein quotes floating around the web. They were real, but taken out of the context. But they made my point. Einstein is a

Re: Discovery of quantum vibrations in brain microtubules confirms Hameroff/Penrose consciousness theory basis

2014-01-28 Thread LizR
On 28 January 2014 21:59, Bruno Marchal marc...@ulb.ac.be wrote: Concepts like God, Matter, Universe are very useful, as long as their precise sense are free to evolve, like any other concepts. To stuck a concept in one theory is just like assessing that theory. I know only atheists to stuck

Re: Discovery of quantum vibrations in brain microtubules confirms Hameroff/Penrose consciousness theory basis

2014-01-28 Thread Bruno Marchal
On 27 Jan 2014, at 23:38, LizR wrote: On 28 January 2014 09:21, Jason Resch jasonre...@gmail.com wrote: But Jason I want to ask you a direct question, and this isn't rhetorical I'd really like an answer: If there is no all encompassing purpose or a goal to existence and if the unknown

Re: Discovery of quantum vibrations in brain microtubules confirms Hameroff/Penrose consciousness theory basis

2014-01-28 Thread LizR
On 28 January 2014 22:08, Bruno Marchal marc...@ulb.ac.be wrote: On 27 Jan 2014, at 22:48, LizR wrote: After all my lessons in logic, I feel duty bound to point out that Einstein only said that he didn't believe in a personal God. From that, one cannot deduce that he thought you *can

Re: Discovery of quantum vibrations in brain microtubules confirms Hameroff/Penrose consciousness theory basis

2014-01-28 Thread Bruno Marchal
On 28 Jan 2014, at 05:57, meekerdb wrote: On 1/27/2014 7:17 PM, Jason Resch wrote: On Jan 27, 2014, at 4:38 PM, LizR lizj...@gmail.com wrote: On 28 January 2014 09:21, Jason Resch jasonre...@gmail.com wrote: But Jason I want to ask you a direct question, and this isn't rhetorical I'd

Re: Discovery of quantum vibrations in brain microtubules confirms Hameroff/Penrose consciousness theory basis

2014-01-28 Thread Bruno Marchal
Oops send a message by mistake, sorry. Comment below. On 28 Jan 2014, at 05:57, meekerdb wrote: On 1/27/2014 7:17 PM, Jason Resch wrote: On Jan 27, 2014, at 4:38 PM, LizR lizj...@gmail.com wrote: On 28 January 2014 09:21, Jason Resch jasonre...@gmail.com wrote: But Jason I want to ask you

Re: Discovery of quantum vibrations in brain microtubules confirms Hameroff/Penrose consciousness theory basis

2014-01-28 Thread Bruno Marchal
On 28 Jan 2014, at 10:13, LizR wrote: On 28 January 2014 21:48, Bruno Marchal marc...@ulb.ac.be wrote: On 27 Jan 2014, at 22:05, LizR wrote: I hope those are real quotes. There are quite a few fake Einstein quotes floating around the web. They were real, but taken out of the context. But

Re: Discovery of quantum vibrations in brain microtubules confirms Hameroff/Penrose consciousness theory basis

2014-01-28 Thread Bruno Marchal
On 28 Jan 2014, at 10:16, LizR wrote: On 28 January 2014 21:59, Bruno Marchal marc...@ulb.ac.be wrote: Concepts like God, Matter, Universe are very useful, as long as their precise sense are free to evolve, like any other concepts. To stuck a concept in one theory is just like assessing

Re: Discovery of quantum vibrations in brain microtubules confirms Hameroff/Penrose consciousness theory basis

2014-01-28 Thread Jason Resch
On Mon, Jan 27, 2014 at 10:57 PM, meekerdb meeke...@verizon.net wrote: On 1/27/2014 7:17 PM, Jason Resch wrote: On Jan 27, 2014, at 4:38 PM, LizR lizj...@gmail.com wrote: On 28 January 2014 09:21, Jason Resch jasonre...@gmail.com wrote: But Jason I want to ask you a direct question,

Re: Discovery of quantum vibrations in brain microtubules confirms Hameroff/Penrose consciousness theory basis

2014-01-28 Thread Bruno Marchal
On 28 Jan 2014, at 10:19, LizR wrote: On 28 January 2014 22:08, Bruno Marchal marc...@ulb.ac.be wrote: On 27 Jan 2014, at 22:48, LizR wrote: After all my lessons in logic, I feel duty bound to point out that Einstein only said that he didn't believe in a personal God. From that, one cannot

Re: Discovery of quantum vibrations in brain microtubules confirms Hameroff/Penrose consciousness theory basis

2014-01-28 Thread Edgar L. Owen
Liz, No, those are entirely different effects. You need to understand the difference. My proposed black hole effect is not as you suggested but due to the uneven Hubble expansion of space around galaxies. The effect Brent is proposing has nothing to do with the Hubble expansion. It seems to

Re: Discovery of quantum vibrations in brain microtubules confirms Hameroff/Penrose consciousness theory basis

2014-01-28 Thread Platonist Guitar Cowboy
On Tue, Jan 28, 2014 at 2:46 AM, meekerdb meeke...@verizon.net wrote: On 1/27/2014 2:32 PM, Platonist Guitar Cowboy wrote: On Mon, Jan 27, 2014 at 10:09 PM, meekerdb meeke...@verizon.net wrote: On 1/27/2014 12:12 PM, Platonist Guitar Cowboy wrote: So sure yeah, there's no limit to

Re: Discovery of quantum vibrations in brain microtubules confirms Hameroff/Penrose consciousness theory basis

2014-01-28 Thread Telmo Menezes
On Tue, Jan 28, 2014 at 4:34 PM, Platonist Guitar Cowboy multiplecit...@gmail.com wrote: On Tue, Jan 28, 2014 at 2:46 AM, meekerdb meeke...@verizon.net wrote: On 1/27/2014 2:32 PM, Platonist Guitar Cowboy wrote: On Mon, Jan 27, 2014 at 10:09 PM, meekerdb meeke...@verizon.net wrote: On

Re: Discovery of quantum vibrations in brain microtubules confirms Hameroff/Penrose consciousness theory basis

2014-01-28 Thread meekerdb
On 1/28/2014 12:32 AM, Bruno Marchal wrote: Yes, and most of the time, such eliminativism is a progress. WE eliminate the terms of the obsolete theories, like phlogiston, or like the cold and hot atoms of Lavoisier, or the N rays, etc. Just as an aside, N rays is now used to describe neutron

Re: Discovery of quantum vibrations in brain microtubules confirms Hameroff/Penrose consciousness theory basis

2014-01-28 Thread meekerdb
On 1/28/2014 12:59 AM, Bruno Marchal wrote: The problem is that once you suppress God, you will make Matter into a God, and science into pseudo-religious scientism, with his train of authoritative arguments. why do you think the FPI is still ignored by most scientists? To say I don't believe

Re: Discovery of quantum vibrations in brain microtubules confirms Hameroff/Penrose consciousness theory basis

2014-01-28 Thread meekerdb
On 1/28/2014 1:16 AM, Bruno Marchal wrote: That would be like attributing importance to a name, at a place where precisely we should not attribute any importance. I would use tao, that would make the results looking new-age. Use any another name, people will add more connotations than with the

Re: Discovery of quantum vibrations in brain microtubules confirms Hameroff/Penrose consciousness theory basis

2014-01-28 Thread meekerdb
On 1/28/2014 1:27 AM, Bruno Marchal wrote: But it refers to an immortal person, and singular at that. Yes. Singular. that the main contribution of the Parmenides: the rise of monotheism and the rise of monism. The idea that there is a unique reality. That is the motor of the fundamental

Re: Discovery of quantum vibrations in brain microtubules confirms Hameroff/Penrose consciousness theory basis

2014-01-28 Thread meekerdb
On 1/28/2014 1:47 AM, Jason Resch wrote: Supposing there is a ground of all reality, as some would nominate the strings of string theory and others computations of a universal dovetailer, why would suppose in advance that this GOAR is infinite, transcendent(whatever that means),

  1   2   3   4   >