Re: Convince me, please!
On Wednesday 15 August 2007 12:39:17 Giorgos Keramidas wrote: One of the best emails I've seen as a reply to a user coming from the Windows world. Many thanks for taking the time to write all this :-) - Giorgos On 2007-08-15 03:14, David Southwell [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: I see where both sides in this argument are coming from.. basically a lack of understanding of the others point of view. As a user of multiple operating systems..Freebsd, Windows 98, 2000, XP and XP 64, Linux and apple I thought i might throw in a remark or two which is intended to help a newcomer to a freebsd world. First lets think of the MS windows user. As a newcomer to a unix OS, such as freebsd, you are faced with two very large sets of challenges or, as I would like you to think of it, educational opportunities. Because the vendor of the operating system is also the vendor of major applications, including its most commonly used browser, office applicatiions and compiler systems non-technically minded users do not easily have a clear grasp of the distinction between the roles of an OS and the role of applications. To use any Unix system effectively a clear and reasonably detailed understanding of the way applications interact with the operating system is essential. For its own commercial reasons Microoft are keen to blur that distinction in the minds of its users to maintain a false notion that only MS windows can fulfill its user's needs. Secondly because MS windows operates in a commercial environment it fosters a dependency culture in which you pay for your OS, you pay for your applications and in return you EXPECT a level of support and therefore users are not encouraged to extend their capabilities beyond understanding the applications they use. In the freebsd world most applications and utilities are there for installing without charge. The users include people who develop and everyone partakes in a foem of voluntary mutual support. It is a world in which expectation of support is anathema and in which a combination of striving for greater personal comeptency and voluntary sharing of knowledge and responsibility is the dominant ethos. So if you plan a move to the unix be ready to learn to build a greater understanding of how the operating system works, how applications are installed and maintained and above all to realize your basic needs will not be fulfilled in the same way as they are fulfilled in MS windows and that that you will need to put in a lot of effort to understand how to benefit from the much greater opportunities provided by OS's such as Freebsd. So your first first set of educational opportunities are to learn how reconstruct your expectations and to construct a set of relationships that will work for you in a unix world. The second set of educational opportunities are to study the practicalities. You need to decide the basic things you need to get on board freebsd. You need a browser.. that is no problem there are many to choose from .. you need office tools well there is a complete office suite. Whatever you need there will be a tool for you and the choices are a rich but usually free!!. The draw back is being faced with the challenge of learning how to choose. That is daunting challenge and those of us who are familiar with unix system, and accustomed to communicating with other freebsd users, are often guilty of failing to understand that people who come from an MS Windows find the terse ways in which we tend to communicate to be abrasive. My suggestion to you would be to proceed without risk. Dabble with freebsd alongside your MSWindows system until you reach the point at which you are ready or not (as the case may be) to change over completely. You do not need the latest hardware to get started. Freebsd is much less bloated and, in that respect, more efficient than MS windows. Follow the instructions and play with the system and see where you want to go with it. Like countries all IT systems and applications have their own language. MS windows has its own language !! Every territory has a language needed to discuss its inhabitants understandings. If you use the pejorative term jargon to describe a language you will need to learn you will never learn to adjust. I recomend you treat this adjustment process is an educational opportunity. If you are not willing to learn the words that describe how a world that is new to you functions then, like a immigrant in a foreign land, you will not feel you understand either the practical systems or the cultiure of your environment. You will not find anyone here wanting to sell you the system!! The unix world does not work like that. Those of us who have used unix since before MSDos was developed do not easily realize just how difficult the adjustment can be for those whose experience
Re: Convince me, please!
On Wednesday 08 August 2007 23:20:28 Goltsios Theodore wrote: Well sorry if I'm getting annoying but I think you face the Unix world in the wrong manner. Well you expect to find something you are used to, or something like MS Win you only know. I advise that you should be more open minded, willing to read and spare time to get familiar to the Unix OSes that are around. But the advantages are and the power that these kind of systems offer, which is probably unlimited compared with the Windowz strict and limited way of operating. If you really don't want that kind of power (thus doing what you must faster, better and in a more efficient way) then you are in the wrong place. A good way to start solving all questions concerning the FreeBSD is its handbook or the perhaps the FAQ. http://www.freebsd.org/doc/en_US.ISO8859-1/books/handbook/ PS Try some googling or the freebsd official site for more resources. I'm sure all your questions will be satisfied. Theodoros Goltsios Kinetix Tele.com Support Center email: [EMAIL PROTECTED], [EMAIL PROTECTED] Tel. Fax: +30 2310556134 WWW: http://www.kinetix.gr/ Latitude wrote: I'm interested in changing over to FreeBSD from Windows, but I'll have to say, you guys don't really present a forceful argument to Windows users of how easy the switch may be. I get knee-deep in FreeBSD jargon the second I get to your webpage. I need to see an overwhelming argument that FreeBSD is a perfectly acceptable alternative for home desktop users who have previously known only Windows. For instance, if I download and install FreeBSD, will I instantly have a desktop windowing environment that I can navigate in while I figure out what's going on? Will I have a browser and way to setup an internet connection right off the bat? How will I migrate files from other operating systems? I understand you guys have been around for a while, but you don't seem to understand the monumental fear involved in switching operating systems. You need to address those concerns head on from the start. I need to see several screenshots of apps that I can use as alternatives to what I have. Help me (and yourselves) out. I see where both sides in this argument are coming from.. basically a lack of understanding of the others point of view. As a user of multiple operating systems..Freebsd, Windows 98, 2000, XP and XP 64, Linux and apple I thought i might throw in a remark or two which is intended to help a newcomer to a freebsd world. First lets think of the MS windows user. As a newcomer to a unix OS, such as freebsd, you are faced with two very large sets of challenges or, as I would like you to think of it, educational opportunities. Because the vendor of the operating system is also the vendor of major applications, including its most commonly used browser, office applicatiions and compiler systems non-technically minded users do not easily have a clear grasp of the distinction between the roles of an OS and the role of applications. To use any Unix system effectively a clear and reasonably detailed understanding of the way applications interact with the operating system is essential. For its own commercial reasons Microoft are keen to blur that distinction in the minds of its users to maintain a false notion that only MS windows can fulfill its user's needs. Secondly because MS windows operates in a commercial environment it fosters a dependency culture in which you pay for your OS, you pay for your applications and in return you EXPECT a level of support and therefore users are not encouraged to extend their capabilities beyond understanding the applications they use. In the freebsd world most applications and utilities are there for installing without charge. The users include people who develop and everyone partakes in a foem of voluntary mutual support. It is a world in which expectation of support is anathema and in which a combination of striving for greater personal comeptency and voluntary sharing of knowledge and responsibility is the dominant ethos. So if you plan a move to the unix be ready to learn to build a greater understanding of how the operating system works, how applications are installed and maintained and above all to realize your basic needs will not be fulfilled in the same way as they are fulfilled in MS windows and that that you will need to put in a lot of effort to understand how to benefit from the much greater opportunities provided by OS's such as Freebsd. So your first first set of educational opportunities are to learn how reconstruct your expectations and to construct a set of relationships that will work for you in a unix world. The second set of educational opportunities are to study the practicalities. You need to decide the basic things you need to get on board freebsd. You need a browser.. that is no problem there are many to choose from .. you
Re: Convince me, please!
On Wednesday 15 August 2007 03:14:09 David Southwell wrote: On Wednesday 08 August 2007 23:20:28 Goltsios Theodore wrote: Well sorry if I'm getting annoying but I think you face the Unix world in the wrong manner. Well you expect to find something you are used to, or something like MS Win you only know. I advise that you should be more open minded, willing to read and spare time to get familiar to the Unix OSes that are around. But the advantages are and the power that these kind of systems offer, which is probably unlimited compared with the Windowz strict and limited way of operating. If you really don't want that kind of power (thus doing what you must faster, better and in a more efficient way) then you are in the wrong place. A good way to start solving all questions concerning the FreeBSD is its handbook or the perhaps the FAQ. http://www.freebsd.org/doc/en_US.ISO8859-1/books/handbook/ PS Try some googling or the freebsd official site for more resources. I'm sure all your questions will be satisfied. Theodoros Goltsios Kinetix Tele.com Support Center email: [EMAIL PROTECTED], [EMAIL PROTECTED] Tel. Fax: +30 2310556134 WWW: http://www.kinetix.gr/ Latitude wrote: I'm interested in changing over to FreeBSD from Windows, but I'll have to say, you guys don't really present a forceful argument to Windows users of how easy the switch may be. I get knee-deep in FreeBSD jargon the second I get to your webpage. I need to see an overwhelming argument that FreeBSD is a perfectly acceptable alternative for home desktop users who have previously known only Windows. For instance, if I download and install FreeBSD, will I instantly have a desktop windowing environment that I can navigate in while I figure out what's going on? Will I have a browser and way to setup an internet connection right off the bat? How will I migrate files from other operating systems? I understand you guys have been around for a while, but you don't seem to understand the monumental fear involved in switching operating systems. You need to address those concerns head on from the start. I need to see several screenshots of apps that I can use as alternatives to what I have. Help me (and yourselves) out. I see where both sides in this argument are coming from.. basically a lack of understanding of the others point of view. As a user of multiple operating systems..Freebsd, Windows 98, 2000, XP and XP 64, Linux and apple I thought i might throw in a remark or two which is intended to help a newcomer to a freebsd world. First lets think of the MS windows user. As a newcomer to a unix OS, such as freebsd, you are faced with two very large sets of challenges or, as I would like you to think of it, educational opportunities. Because the vendor of the operating system I mean here in the MS windows operating system! is also the vendor of major applications, including its most commonly used browser, office applicatiions and compiler systems non-technically minded users do not easily have a clear grasp of the distinction between the roles of an OS and the role of applications. To use any Unix system effectively a clear and reasonably detailed understanding of the way applications interact with the operating system is essential. For its own commercial reasons Microoft are keen to blur that distinction in the minds of its users to maintain a false notion that only MS windows can fulfill its user's needs. Secondly because MS windows operates in a commercial environment it fosters a dependency culture in which you pay for your OS, you pay for your applications and in return you EXPECT a level of support and therefore users are not encouraged to extend their capabilities beyond understanding the applications they use. In the freebsd world most applications and utilities are there for installing without charge. The users include people who develop and everyone partakes in a foem of voluntary mutual support. It is a world in which expectation of support is anathema and in which a combination of striving for greater personal comeptency and voluntary sharing of knowledge and responsibility is the dominant ethos. So if you plan a move to the unix be ready to learn to build a greater understanding of how the operating system works, how applications are installed and maintained and above all to realize your basic needs will not be fulfilled in the same way as they are fulfilled in MS windows and that that you will need to put in a lot of effort to understand how to benefit from the much greater opportunities provided by OS's such as Freebsd. So your first first set of educational opportunities are to learn how reconstruct your expectations and to construct a set of relationships that will work for you in a unix world. The second set of educational opportunities are to study the
Re: Convince me, please!
One of the best emails I've seen as a reply to a user coming from the Windows world. Many thanks for taking the time to write all this :-) - Giorgos On 2007-08-15 03:14, David Southwell [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: I see where both sides in this argument are coming from.. basically a lack of understanding of the others point of view. As a user of multiple operating systems..Freebsd, Windows 98, 2000, XP and XP 64, Linux and apple I thought i might throw in a remark or two which is intended to help a newcomer to a freebsd world. First lets think of the MS windows user. As a newcomer to a unix OS, such as freebsd, you are faced with two very large sets of challenges or, as I would like you to think of it, educational opportunities. Because the vendor of the operating system is also the vendor of major applications, including its most commonly used browser, office applicatiions and compiler systems non-technically minded users do not easily have a clear grasp of the distinction between the roles of an OS and the role of applications. To use any Unix system effectively a clear and reasonably detailed understanding of the way applications interact with the operating system is essential. For its own commercial reasons Microoft are keen to blur that distinction in the minds of its users to maintain a false notion that only MS windows can fulfill its user's needs. Secondly because MS windows operates in a commercial environment it fosters a dependency culture in which you pay for your OS, you pay for your applications and in return you EXPECT a level of support and therefore users are not encouraged to extend their capabilities beyond understanding the applications they use. In the freebsd world most applications and utilities are there for installing without charge. The users include people who develop and everyone partakes in a foem of voluntary mutual support. It is a world in which expectation of support is anathema and in which a combination of striving for greater personal comeptency and voluntary sharing of knowledge and responsibility is the dominant ethos. So if you plan a move to the unix be ready to learn to build a greater understanding of how the operating system works, how applications are installed and maintained and above all to realize your basic needs will not be fulfilled in the same way as they are fulfilled in MS windows and that that you will need to put in a lot of effort to understand how to benefit from the much greater opportunities provided by OS's such as Freebsd. So your first first set of educational opportunities are to learn how reconstruct your expectations and to construct a set of relationships that will work for you in a unix world. The second set of educational opportunities are to study the practicalities. You need to decide the basic things you need to get on board freebsd. You need a browser.. that is no problem there are many to choose from .. you need office tools well there is a complete office suite. Whatever you need there will be a tool for you and the choices are a rich but usually free!!. The draw back is being faced with the challenge of learning how to choose. That is daunting challenge and those of us who are familiar with unix system, and accustomed to communicating with other freebsd users, are often guilty of failing to understand that people who come from an MS Windows find the terse ways in which we tend to communicate to be abrasive. My suggestion to you would be to proceed without risk. Dabble with freebsd alongside your MSWindows system until you reach the point at which you are ready or not (as the case may be) to change over completely. You do not need the latest hardware to get started. Freebsd is much less bloated and, in that respect, more efficient than MS windows. Follow the instructions and play with the system and see where you want to go with it. Like countries all IT systems and applications have their own language. MS windows has its own language !! Every territory has a language needed to discuss its inhabitants understandings. If you use the pejorative term jargon to describe a language you will need to learn you will never learn to adjust. I recomend you treat this adjustment process is an educational opportunity. If you are not willing to learn the words that describe how a world that is new to you functions then, like a immigrant in a foreign land, you will not feel you understand either the practical systems or the cultiure of your environment. You will not find anyone here wanting to sell you the system!! The unix world does not work like that. Those of us who have used unix since before MSDos was developed do not easily realize just how difficult the adjustment can be for those whose experience is limited to MS windows. Forgive us if we seem terse or harsh at times. Our tendency is to indicate resources and trust that others will put in
Re: Convince me, please!
On 8/10/07, Wojciech Puchar [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: Start with DesktopBSD 1.6 since it's closer to FreeBSD than PC-BSD if you need to learn FreeBSD more. both of them should win a similar message at www.freebsd.org We are not supporting both DesktopBSD and PC-BSD. that's not out products, just loosely based on FreeBSD. Please DO NOT judge FreeBSD based of them ___ freebsd-questions@freebsd.org mailing list http://lists.freebsd.org/mailman/listinfo/freebsd-questions To unsubscribe, send any mail to [EMAIL PROTECTED] I don't know where you get 'loosely based on' ... both products are based _directly_ on FreeBSD... PC-BSD 1.3 on 6.1 p11 and 1.4 beta on 6.2 p3. DesktopBSD 1.6 is based on 6.2 AFAIK. Both _fully_ support ports and packages and are simply FreeBSD coupled to a KDE desktop of their creator's choice which you could easily modify using pkg_add/pkg_delete. PC-BSD does allow a user to use PBIs (Push Button Installer) which will install a package to it's unique directory with all the dependencies needed in that directory or one of its subs. This doesn't impinge on either ports or packages but does tend to use more disk space. Both current beta products use xorg 7.2. I too have been using FreeBSD since 2.2.8 and see no problems having a quick, easy to install (less than 10 minutes on a 165 Opteron) surfing desktop that doesn't spend 3 hours a day scanning for viruses or spyware. -- --I'm not 'renting' my OS-- ___ freebsd-questions@freebsd.org mailing list http://lists.freebsd.org/mailman/listinfo/freebsd-questions To unsubscribe, send any mail to [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Re: Convince me, please!
Well sorry if I'm getting annoying but I think you face the Unix world in the wrong manner. Well you expect to find something you are used to, or something like MS Win you only know. I advise that you should be more open minded, willing to read and spare time to get familiar to the Unix OSes that are around. But the advantages are and the power that these kind of systems offer, which is probably unlimited compared with the Windowz strict and limited way of operating. If you really don't want that kind of power (thus doing what you must faster, better and in a more efficient way) then you are in the wrong place. A good way to start solving all questions concerning the FreeBSD is its handbook or the perhaps the FAQ. http://www.freebsd.org/doc/en_US.ISO8859-1/books/handbook/ PS Try some googling or the freebsd official site for more resources. I'm sure all your questions will be satisfied. Theodoros Goltsios Kinetix Tele.com Support Center email: [EMAIL PROTECTED], [EMAIL PROTECTED] Tel. Fax: +30 2310556134 WWW: http://www.kinetix.gr/ Latitude wrote: I'm interested in changing over to FreeBSD from Windows, but I'll have to say, you guys don't really present a forceful argument to Windows users of how easy the switch may be. I get knee-deep in FreeBSD jargon the second I get to your webpage. I need to see an overwhelming argument that FreeBSD is a perfectly acceptable alternative for home desktop users who have previously known only Windows. For instance, if I download and install FreeBSD, will I instantly have a desktop windowing environment that I can navigate in while I figure out what's going on? Will I have a browser and way to setup an internet connection right off the bat? How will I migrate files from other operating systems? I understand you guys have been around for a while, but you don't seem to understand the monumental fear involved in switching operating systems. You need to address those concerns head on from the start. I need to see several screenshots of apps that I can use as alternatives to what I have. Help me (and yourselves) out. ___ freebsd-questions@freebsd.org mailing list http://lists.freebsd.org/mailman/listinfo/freebsd-questions To unsubscribe, send any mail to [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Re: Convince me, please! - too much about GUI
Sorry, I agree with you, s/GUI/graphic based/ in my post. I've just Yes - graphics based. I use graphics based programs like gimp, links -g, opera, xv xzgv, gv and xdvi. ___ freebsd-questions@freebsd.org mailing list http://lists.freebsd.org/mailman/listinfo/freebsd-questions To unsubscribe, send any mail to [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Re: Convince me, please! - too much about GUI
sincerely assume that. well here in poland people do see a difference, because computer has to be bought, while windoze can be pirated. in my 320 user network less than ten bought windoze, over 300 uses pirated one, 10 uses my X-terminals. and it's good for microsoft. if police in poland would start catching pirated for real, in 1-2 years windows will be unpopular. ___ freebsd-questions@freebsd.org mailing list http://lists.freebsd.org/mailman/listinfo/freebsd-questions To unsubscribe, send any mail to [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Re: Convince me, please! - too much about GUI
User-friendliness is obviously subjective. Some people consider a my definition is that user friendly system does what i want, does it right and quickly. simply - it's my slave. not my master. ___ freebsd-questions@freebsd.org mailing list http://lists.freebsd.org/mailman/listinfo/freebsd-questions To unsubscribe, send any mail to [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Re: Convince me, please!
I still do maintain a Windows 2000 machine for my graphics workstation, and to run my vintage DOS apps. qemu works well. and about DOS apps - few small companies are still using our 18-year old (so really mature ;) DOS apps. when asked if they like me to write new unix version (+lots of adventages here, remote sessions etc.) then don't. they just don't like to pay anymore because this 18-year program JUST WORKS. that's the worst Microsofts (and others) nightmare: To write a program that will be good and will just work. ___ freebsd-questions@freebsd.org mailing list http://lists.freebsd.org/mailman/listinfo/freebsd-questions To unsubscribe, send any mail to [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Re: Convince me, please! - too much about GUI
FreeBSD 6-STABLE console on my amd64 3000+ and wanted to know why i was using such an old computer. She had the visual aspect of the user interface ingrained as a measure of the capabilities of the machine. Granted, it could be only because she's ten, but I think we'd find a lot of people think that no. it was just more unfortunate to her, because what you learn as a child is then accepted as normal and natural in adult life. ___ freebsd-questions@freebsd.org mailing list http://lists.freebsd.org/mailman/listinfo/freebsd-questions To unsubscribe, send any mail to [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Re: Convince me, please!
It's already been mentioned, but I would strongly recommend PCBSD for the windows convert. Having PCBSD allows me to easily setup friends i would rather recomend not moving away from windows. Why? because only windows is truly windows like. there is nothing like better windows while there are lot of better software. ___ freebsd-questions@freebsd.org mailing list http://lists.freebsd.org/mailman/listinfo/freebsd-questions To unsubscribe, send any mail to [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Re: X + WM != GUI? (Re: Convince me, please! - too much about GUI)
I am not following this. If (X.org + some WM) is not a GUI, how would you define He probably equates a desktop environment (such as KDE/Gnome/etc.) to a GUI. most people exactly equates that and i stated i that such defined GUI is completely useless and actually takes over time and resources. but you are right - of course Which is wrong, of course: GUI is just any form of graphical user interface, which X fits nicely. X+wm. X alone doesn't provide any GUI. ___ freebsd-questions@freebsd.org mailing list http://lists.freebsd.org/mailman/listinfo/freebsd-questions To unsubscribe, send any mail to [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Re: Convince me, please! - too much about GUI
Rolf G Nielsen wrote: Reid Linnemann wrote: My ten year old niece has been brainwashed by the GUI quagmire. She saw my FreeBSD 6-STABLE console on my amd64 3000+ and wanted to know why i was using such an old computer. She had the visual aspect of the user interface ingrained as a measure of the capabilities of the machine. Granted, it could be only because she's ten, but I think we'd find a lot of people think that something has to have more blinky lights and chrome to be better or faster. ___ freebsd-questions@freebsd.org mailing list http://lists.freebsd.org/mailman/listinfo/freebsd-questions To unsubscribe, send any mail to [EMAIL PROTECTED] I seriously doubt that it's only because she's ten. A friend of mine (who's 37) defines user-friendliness based on the number of tasks he can complete through a GUI. I used to think like that too, but not any longer. I first tried FreeBSD in 1998, but I couldn't get anything running. I just had no idea how, and I was expecting a nice user-friendly GUI, like Windoze, but without the constant crashes. In 1999 I purchased The complete FreeBSD, 3rd edition with CDs included, and this my second try was a lot more sucessful. I was still after a fancy GUI, but this time I got things working. Not without effort though. Over the years since I first tried FreeBSD, my ideas about ease of use have changed quite a lot. I no longer define user-friendliness based on what I can do in the GUI; actually, I'm often annoyed by all the menus, submenus and all the whistles and bells. It's really a lot easier to edit a text file to change some setting, than browsing through heaps of buttons, drop-down lists and all that. I think what everyone seems to be missing is that you know something about your computer. You want a directory? Dir. Unless you're using Unix. Then it's ls. How would you have known this without some background in using the system, if you were just plunked down in front of it? (Jurassic Park...Hey! I know this!) For people interested in computers, it isn't a chore to learn about various commands or even learning how to learn about commands. It's not a chore to learn how the system works. For computer oriented people the user-friendliness bar is far higher in tolerance than for your average user. The computer user is as enthused about learning how to find a file (or know where the hell they're storing the [EMAIL PROTECTED] file...) as I am finding out the differences among radial tire options for my car or what the building codes are for my home when remodeling or learning why my tax forms are so @#$%! difficult to navigate through. User friendliness means they *don't need to think about a task*, and they will put up with a small amount of hassle to achieve a task as long as it isn't a pain in the arse for them to get from A to B. Sorry, but the quickest way for them to sit down and figure something out without having to refer to extra books and cheatsheets is by a (well designed) GUI. It can give them something to experiment with, and the interface presents them with a pointer and a mouse and menus to hint at options rather than a directionless blinking cursor. They can interact with it. If well designed, it can guide them through tasks. The command line is MUCH faster for many tasks, given that you know what you're doing with it. Train someone on a rote task and the command line would be just fine for what they would do. Type this...then this...then this...then hit enter...then print this... and the CLI is very user friendly. For users to feel comfortable on their own or in doing something flexible, the GUI is just more comfortable for them and it reduces the need to actually have to think. So it does little good for presumably tech-oriented people to proclaim how the command line is leaps and bounds friendlier/faster to use. Anyone who does user support should know that the average user would be required to think in order to use the system if it simply presents them with a flashing cursor. What do I do? What do I type? Does it read English? What is my paperwork even called? And before I reach for the asbestos suit, yes, there's a learning curve to GUIs. But the GUI still makes them more comfortable than using the keyboard. Crimony, the given the inability for people to even use the words LOSE and LOOSE properly, why the hell would anyone think the masses would find the keyboard more intuitive or easier to use with computers than a simple palm-sized plastic block with a button on it? Until computer interfaces are as easy to use as the LCARS system on the Enterprise or the computer interface on Atlantis (Stargate, if you're unfamiliar), the most comfortable thing for users to interact with will be pretty pictures and dancing eye candy to act as a reinforcement and reward for users who don't give a #!#% about how or why
X + WM != GUI? (Re: Convince me, please! - too much about GUI)
Wojciech Puchar [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: i don't use GUI. it takes a lot and gives nothing. i use both text and graphic (X) based apps and no gui. i use fvwm2 with my config, there are plenty of nice other wm's good for that. I am not following this. If (X.org + some WM) is not a GUI, how would you define * a GUI * X.org + some WM ___ freebsd-questions@freebsd.org mailing list http://lists.freebsd.org/mailman/listinfo/freebsd-questions To unsubscribe, send any mail to [EMAIL PROTECTED]
RE: Convince me, please!
to the task. In general, I would say that FreeBSD is not the appropriate choice for a user who is not at least somewhat interested in the how's and why's of the OS. FreeBSD is excellent for average user if accessed through terminal (or X terminal) and configured by system administrator. or quickly - done right way. as administrator it only one and such users may be a lot, the TCO is really small. ___ freebsd-questions@freebsd.org mailing list http://lists.freebsd.org/mailman/listinfo/freebsd-questions To unsubscribe, send any mail to [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Re: Convince me, please!
I don't really think of entirely unnecessary (for most purposes) server software as standard utilities. Speaking only for myself, I *have* tried MacOS X (and used it in a professional capacity), and I too find it to be very little unix with lots of bulky overhead. I also find it to be clear. Apple had problems selling their new computers as their older OS was too fast. and they need a marketing words to convince users to switch to new OS X, so they say about it being unix ___ freebsd-questions@freebsd.org mailing list http://lists.freebsd.org/mailman/listinfo/freebsd-questions To unsubscribe, send any mail to [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Re: Convince me, please!
On Fri, Aug 10, 2007 at 09:37:19AM +0200, Wojciech Puchar wrote: It's already been mentioned, but I would strongly recommend PCBSD for the windows convert. Having PCBSD allows me to easily setup friends i would rather recomend not moving away from windows. Why? -- CCD CopyWrite Chad Perrin [ http://ccd.apotheon.org ] awj @reddit: The terms never and always are never always true. ___ freebsd-questions@freebsd.org mailing list http://lists.freebsd.org/mailman/listinfo/freebsd-questions To unsubscribe, send any mail to [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Re: Convince me, please!
friendly windows clone, you might look into PC-BSD. It comes out of the box ready for Windows converts. stop telling about them friendly. most of thieves are friendly too, just after some time you see money is missing ___ freebsd-questions@freebsd.org mailing list http://lists.freebsd.org/mailman/listinfo/freebsd-questions To unsubscribe, send any mail to [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Re: Convince me, please!
It's already been mentioned, but I would strongly recommend PCBSD for the windows convert. Having PCBSD allows me to easily setup friends i would rather recomend not moving away from windows. ___ freebsd-questions@freebsd.org mailing list http://lists.freebsd.org/mailman/listinfo/freebsd-questions To unsubscribe, send any mail to [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Re: Convince me, please!
Start with DesktopBSD 1.6 since it's closer to FreeBSD than PC-BSD if you need to learn FreeBSD more. both of them should win a similar message at www.freebsd.org We are not supporting both DesktopBSD and PC-BSD. that's not out products, just loosely based on FreeBSD. Please DO NOT judge FreeBSD based of them ___ freebsd-questions@freebsd.org mailing list http://lists.freebsd.org/mailman/listinfo/freebsd-questions To unsubscribe, send any mail to [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Re: X + WM != GUI? (Re: Convince me, please! - too much about GUI)
Am Freitag 10 August 2007 10:57:38 schrieb [EMAIL PROTECTED]: Wojciech Puchar [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: i don't use GUI. it takes a lot and gives nothing. i use both text and graphic (X) based apps and no gui. i use fvwm2 with my config, there are plenty of nice other wm's good for that. I am not following this. If (X.org + some WM) is not a GUI, how would you define He probably equates a desktop environment (such as KDE/Gnome/etc.) to a GUI. Which is wrong, of course: GUI is just any form of graphical user interface, which X fits nicely. -- Heiko Wundram Product Application Development ___ freebsd-questions@freebsd.org mailing list http://lists.freebsd.org/mailman/listinfo/freebsd-questions To unsubscribe, send any mail to [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Re: Convince me, please!
On Fri, Aug 10, 2007 at 11:50:10AM +0200, Wojciech Puchar wrote: It's already been mentioned, but I would strongly recommend PCBSD for the windows convert. Having PCBSD allows me to easily setup friends i would rather recomend not moving away from windows. Why? because only windows is truly windows like. there is nothing like better windows while there are lot of better software. Your phrasing indicated a preference for recommending MS Windows over recommending PC-BSD. It didn't appear to specifically make a point about how MS Windows is the best MS Windows because it's the only MS Windows, from what I saw. Apparently, however, that's what you meant. Thanks for clearing that up. -- CCD CopyWrite Chad Perrin [ http://ccd.apotheon.org ] McCloctnick the Lucid: The first rule of magic is simple. Don't waste your time waving your hands and hopping when a rock or a club will do. ___ freebsd-questions@freebsd.org mailing list http://lists.freebsd.org/mailman/listinfo/freebsd-questions To unsubscribe, send any mail to [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Re: Convince me, please! - too much about GUI
idea how, and I was expecting a nice user-friendly GUI, like Windoze, but without the constant crashes. that's what most people expect. and thats why i say: Windows it the most windows compatible system available. don't change to other. In 1999 I purchased The complete FreeBSD, 3rd edition with CDs included, in Poland there are lots of books available about linux, none of them actually learning anything :) and this my second try was a lot more sucessful. I was still after a fancy GUI, but this time I got things working. Not without effort though. that's good. it forced you to learn. Where most Windoze users find Windoze user-friendly, I find it user-hostile, because it hides the simplest things under tons of graphics. that's makes money. educated and intelligent customer is the worst customer! unaware/stupid one will buy everything that will solve the problems (and create 2 times more). ___ freebsd-questions@freebsd.org mailing list http://lists.freebsd.org/mailman/listinfo/freebsd-questions To unsubscribe, send any mail to [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Re: Convince me, please! - too much about GUI
Hi Gerard, Gerard wrote: I was not aware of any place where they gave computers away. In the UK we call them skips. Not sure what the rest of the world calls them. [Large metal junk containers placed at the back of large buildings near the other bins. They're usually hired rather than owned. Perfectly good computers are often found within.] Most of my CRT monitors come from skips. There's no shame in skipdiving when you can't afford hardware. :) Adam J Richardson ___ freebsd-questions@freebsd.org mailing list http://lists.freebsd.org/mailman/listinfo/freebsd-questions To unsubscribe, send any mail to [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Re: Convince me, please!
Hi Wojciech, Wojciech Puchar wrote: and about DOS apps - few small companies are still using our 18-year old (so really mature ;) DOS apps. when asked if they like me to write new unix version (+lots of adventages here, remote sessions etc.) then don't. they just don't like to pay anymore because this 18-year program JUST WORKS. That reminds me of my last job. It's a big multinational company [let's call it Torus, for no particular reason] but knows almost nothing about computing. They're using some old database software from 1 years BC. There's no security on it at all. I was able to use M$ Excel to peek inside it at the data. Unfortunately when I did that I locked absolutely everyone in the company out of the database at the same time. Heh. There's an example of a program that's old and sucks. Adam J Richardson ___ freebsd-questions@freebsd.org mailing list http://lists.freebsd.org/mailman/listinfo/freebsd-questions To unsubscribe, send any mail to [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Re: Convince me, please!
On Thursday 09 August 2007 06:22:26 Latitude wrote: I'm interested in changing over to FreeBSD from Windows, but I'll have to say, you guys don't really present a forceful argument to Windows Well, it's a very different thing. But it can do mostly the same tasks though (and many more). users of how easy the switch may be. I get knee-deep in FreeBSD jargon the second I get to your webpage. I need to see an overwhelming argument Everything that is sorta specialized has its jargon, especially something that is very technical, like an operating system. We do have a very good handbook though, which does a pretty good job to gently introduce all that jargon to people who want to know what it's all about. that FreeBSD is a perfectly acceptable alternative for home desktop users who have previously known only Windows. It can be an acceptable alternative depending on what's considered acceptable, that is, what you want to do with it. I use it exclusively on my desktop. I'll admit that sometimes you may have to hack around a little though. But that's also the fun of it. I also do some programming specifically for the FreeBSD desktop. We surely need improvement there, of course we do, we're a volunteer project. But for me it's nice enough and if I want to I can control it to a level that Windows never allows a user to get to. If you're not a tinkerer you could try and see if you like PC-BSD or DesktopBSD. They are similar but preconfigured FreeBSD based operating systems. For instance, if I download and install FreeBSD, will I instantly have a desktop windowing environment that I can navigate in while I figure out You can have that if you select a desktop environment at install (e.g. KDE or GNOME). what's going on? Will I have a browser and way to setup an internet Browser: yes, even many if you select many. connection right off the bat? How will I migrate files from other Nowadays most people have DSL or cable and both come with a modem and/or router. If you are in the sysinstall installer and you have such a connection through DHCP it should instantly work. Otherwise, if for example behind a (or your own) firewall, at worst, you'd have to type an IP address, make up some computer name for it, and maybe type in the DNS addresses of your ISP. You'd need to do this too in windows. If you have a dial-in modem, I suggest you try installing KDE and use kppp to connect. operating systems? It's possible to mount windows FAT and NTFS partitions and then copy the data over. Obviously if some data is dependent on a Microsoft program to be useful, we may not have an ability to load it into another equivalent program. But for most common formats, like most Office documents, this is no problem for software like OpenOffice or KOffice (perhaps some minor things need to be adjusted). I understand you guys have been around for a while, but you don't seem to understand the monumental fear involved in switching operating The fear is justified. Something else will always be, well, different :) systems. You need to address those concerns head on from the start. I Like I said, the handbook does this quite well. It's still for the technically inclined, yes. That probably won't change, if only because at FreeBSD they like to give the user (which may also be a developer of course!) as much choice as [s]he needs. But you know what, all in all, I think to have a nice desktop on FreeBSD and have your network up and everything work, etc, and perhaps some multimedia hardware setup, all that is probably in less then 10 config files, which are all text, so once you read up on how to use them and all the possibilities they have (just focus on the ones you're interested in, I do that too), you have a lot of power on your hands. Is that user unfriendly or user-enabling? Again, depends on what you expect I guess. But I hope that you can understand that if this enabling wasn't there we wouldn't have the developer community that we have and need. need to see several screenshots of apps that I can use as alternatives to what I have. Generally, the screenshots you see from Linux distributions show the same programs that have been ported and thus run on FreeBSD. So that's your browser, email program, music player, etc. There's many of them. Help me (and yourselves) out. Hope I did. It's not all that hard to give a to-the-point and honest answer. Now here's some food for thought for all the advocates who found it necessary to answer: It's apparently harder to shut your fat fucking face if you don't have anything useful to contribute. With the notable exceptions of Paul Schmehl, Mario Lobo and a few others, the majority of snide answers here are nothing short of disgraceful. Great way to chase folks away. It's immaterial if its flamebait or not. I for one *am* doing my best to make the FreeBSD desktop nicer and more idiot-proof (KDE in my case) and then to read
Re: Convince me, please!
Danny Pansters wrote: (...) Hope I did. It's not all that hard to give a to-the-point and honest answer. Now here's some food for thought for all the advocates who found it necessary to answer: It's apparently harder to shut your fat fucking face if you don't have anything useful to contribute. With the notable exceptions of Paul Schmehl, Mario Lobo and a few others, the majority of snide answers here are nothing short of disgraceful. Great way to chase folks away. It's immaterial if its flamebait or not. I for one *am* doing my best to make the FreeBSD desktop nicer and more idiot-proof (KDE in my case) and then to read juvenile remarks about So, telling people to fuck off, just because they have another opinion is what? Mature? how the console is the best thing since sliced bread and other stupid things, well, you know what? It's *you* who are gladly invited to fuck off and move on to something more esoteric if that's what makes you feel important as far as I'm concerned. Gentoo perhaps. Meanwhile, just let the people who *do* matter do their work and don't leave the impression that you are spokespersons for us. I'm not a spokesperson of FreeBSD but I can assure you that the folks who actually do stuff do care about the desktop and you're disgracing and discreding our work. Cheers, Dan ___ freebsd-questions@freebsd.org mailing list http://lists.freebsd.org/mailman/listinfo/freebsd-questions To unsubscribe, send any mail to [EMAIL PROTECTED] Guis are excellent for graphic tasks; image manipulation, CAD, presentations and such. And in this crowd, I might be considered an anarchist, since I prefer GUI file managers because they can give an overview of the entire directory tree. But I do fail to see the advantage of having a graphical control panel, in which you have to browse through an extensive hierarchy of categories and subcategories just to change your default printer from lpt0 to ulpt0; I'd say that that's what makes people believe that configuring a computer to your own preferences is something that requires a bachelor degree in computer science. And I do fail to see what good comes from loads of silly animations every time you click something; they just consume resources and draw the attention away from the task at hand. Desktop environments are here to stay, I'll grant you that, but they've gone too far: a GUI should help ease the work, but most desktop environments of today (KDE and Gnome, and Windoze for that matter, especially) do the opposite, by directing the attention to all the whistles and bells. -- Sincerly, Rolf Nielsen P.S. Please note, that I'm not telling you to fuck off, I'm just presenting my point of view. ___ freebsd-questions@freebsd.org mailing list http://lists.freebsd.org/mailman/listinfo/freebsd-questions To unsubscribe, send any mail to [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Re: Convince me, please!
On Sat, Aug 11, 2007 at 01:26:58AM +0200, Danny Pansters wrote: Hope I did. It's not all that hard to give a to-the-point and honest answer. I hope you helped, too. Your comments preceding this were to the point, well considered, and informative. At least, I think so. However . . . Now here's some food for thought for all the advocates who found it necessary to answer: It's apparently harder to shut your fat fucking face if you don't have anything useful to contribute. There's a middle ground. The people who seem to have pissed you off missed it. So did you. -- CCD CopyWrite Chad Perrin [ http://ccd.apotheon.org ] print substr(Just another Perl hacker, 0, -2); ___ freebsd-questions@freebsd.org mailing list http://lists.freebsd.org/mailman/listinfo/freebsd-questions To unsubscribe, send any mail to [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Re: Convince me, please!
Latitude wrote: I'm interested in changing over to FreeBSD from Windows, but I'll have to say, you guys don't really present a forceful argument to Windows users of how easy the switch may be. I get knee-deep in FreeBSD jargon the second I get to your webpage. I need to see an overwhelming argument that FreeBSD is a perfectly acceptable alternative for home desktop users who have previously known only Windows. For instance, if I download and install FreeBSD, will I instantly have a desktop windowing environment that I can navigate in while I figure out what's going on? Will I have a browser and way to setup an internet connection right off the bat? How will I migrate files from other operating systems? I understand you guys have been around for a while, but you don't seem to understand the monumental fear involved in switching operating systems. You need to address those concerns head on from the start. I need to see several screenshots of apps that I can use as alternatives to what I have. Help me (and yourselves) out. We migrated from Windows to Linux and then to FreeBSD. We develop and deploy web based applications using open source tools. Our goal was to find a reliable trouble-free open source operating system to standardize on. We found that in FreeBSD and have been very happy ever since we made the switch. It is one of our decisions that we never regretted. We also use the same release of FreeBSD on our development systems. That way, we develop on the same platform that deploy. We find that this helps avoid hassles when it is time to deploy an update. We do have Mac laptops to help support some applications such as Dreamweaver that are not available on FreeBSD. ___ freebsd-questions@freebsd.org mailing list http://lists.freebsd.org/mailman/listinfo/freebsd-questions To unsubscribe, send any mail to [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Re: Convince me, please!
I'm interested in changing over to FreeBSD from Windows, but I'll have to say, you guys don't really present a forceful argument to Windows users of how easy the switch may be. I get knee-deep in FreeBSD jargon do not switch to freebsd. use windows if you have to be convinced. switch when you will convince yourself. ___ freebsd-questions@freebsd.org mailing list http://lists.freebsd.org/mailman/listinfo/freebsd-questions To unsubscribe, send any mail to [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Re: Convince me, please!
I am a new arrival to *BSD though I have used Linux for ten years. I think that if you want a working system right off the bat, PC-BSD or DesktopBSD would be a better introduction for you. The most windows-like system (of which are you talking about) is windows. just keep with it ___ freebsd-questions@freebsd.org mailing list http://lists.freebsd.org/mailman/listinfo/freebsd-questions To unsubscribe, send any mail to [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Re: Convince me, please!
In response to Latitude [EMAIL PROTECTED]: I'm interested in changing over to FreeBSD from Windows, but I'll have to say, you guys don't really present a forceful argument to Windows users of how easy the switch may be. I get knee-deep in FreeBSD jargon the second I get to your webpage. I need to see an overwhelming argument that FreeBSD is a perfectly acceptable alternative for home desktop users who have previously known only Windows. For instance, if I download and install FreeBSD, will I instantly have a desktop windowing environment that I can navigate in while I figure out what's going on? Will I have a browser and way to setup an internet connection right off the bat? How will I migrate files from other operating systems? I understand you guys have been around for a while, but you don't seem to understand the monumental fear involved in switching operating systems. You need to address those concerns head on from the start. I need to see several screenshots of apps that I can use as alternatives to what I have. Help me (and yourselves) out. Flame me if you want, I won't respond. I'll speak my peace and be done. First off, I don't know where you got the misguided idea that FreeBSD is a perfectly acceptable alternative for home desktop users who have previously known only Windows. It's not, and it never will be. If you want something that endeavours to make your life easy, something that takes control away from you so a corporate entity can decide what you want and when you want it, something that lies to you about what's going on to protect you from having to understanding it instead of _letting_you_actually_ _use_your_computer_, something that always has another license fee hidden where you didn't see, but that license will (allegedly) take care of the problem you have today, if you work for a big company where you want someone else to blame if something goes wrong (because nobody ever got fired for buying IBM) instead of actually doing your job, something where the people who create it for you are inaccessible and there's no real community -- then you should use Windows and stop worrying about switching to something else. If you want to be in control of your computer and things related to your computer, then you'd better accept that to have control you've got to have a better understanding of how things work (i.e. the jargon). If you want to have computer software that is open to you for inspection and improvement without any hidden strings attached, then you'd better accept that you'll need to have an understanding of what you're inspecting before you can inspect it. If you want to be part of a community and have the opportunity to talk to the movers and shakers who are doing historically significant stuff with computers, you're going to have to understand WTF they're saying when they talk. If you're willing to take on those responsibilities, then FreeBSD is an excellent platform to allow you to pursue cool computer stuff. If you want something that pretends to be Windows easy and FreeBSD free at the same time, accomplishing both with acceptable meritocracy, then you should look at PC-BSD. -- Bill Moran http://www.potentialtech.com ___ freebsd-questions@freebsd.org mailing list http://lists.freebsd.org/mailman/listinfo/freebsd-questions To unsubscribe, send any mail to [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Re: Convince me, please!
Local system status: 3:01AM up 521 days, 19:57, 0 users, load averages: 0.12, 0.05, 0.02 (FreeBSD 4.4) -Grant - Original Message - From: Wojciech Puchar To: Pollywog Cc: freebsd-questions@freebsd.org Sent: Thursday, August 09, 2007 8:04 AM Subject: Re: Convince me, please! I am a new arrival to *BSD though I have used Linux for ten years. I think that if you want a working system right off the bat, PC-BSD or DesktopBSD would be a better introduction for you. The most windows-like system (of which are you talking about) is windows. just keep with it ___ freebsd-questions@freebsd.org mailing list http://lists.freebsd.org/mailman/listinfo/freebsd-questions To unsubscribe, send any mail to [EMAIL PROTECTED] -- Total Control Panel Login To: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Block messages from this sender (blacklist) From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Remove this sender from my whitelist You received this message because the sender is on your whitelist. ___ freebsd-questions@freebsd.org mailing list http://lists.freebsd.org/mailman/listinfo/freebsd-questions To unsubscribe, send any mail to [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Re: Convince me, please!
Latitude [EMAIL PROTECTED] writes: I'm interested in changing over to FreeBSD from Windows, but I'll have to say, you guys don't really present a forceful argument to Windows users of how easy the switch may be. It's up to you to figure out if you like it or not. If you install it and have any questions, this is the place to ask. It's your *choice*, not any one person's responsibility to convince you. You don't realize how entitled that sounds? At least you said please. I get knee-deep in FreeBSD jargon the second I get to your webpage. You'll have that, it's the FreeBSD website. I need to see an overwhelming argument that FreeBSD is a perfectly acceptable alternative for home desktop users who have previously known only Windows. Then I think you have your answer already. For instance, if I download and install FreeBSD, will I instantly have a desktop windowing environment that I can navigate in while I figure out what's going on? You obviously haven't read the handbook.: http://www.freebsd.org/doc/en_US.ISO8859-1/books/handbook/index.html Careful though, it's chock full of FreeBSD speak. Will I have a browser and way to setup an internet connection right off the bat? Did I mention the handbook: http://www.freebsd.org/doc/en_US.ISO8859-1/books/handbook/index.html How will I migrate files from other operating systems? That *choice* is yours. I understand you guys have been around for a while, but you don't seem to understand the monumental fear involved in switching operating systems. If you're afraid, then you should probably never try anything new. Ever. You need to address those concerns head on from the start. LOL, only my wife tells me what I need to do. I need to see several screenshots of apps that I can use as alternatives to what I have. You do, do you? Try giving this a shot. Install it, with the help of the handbook and the fine people on this list, setup a GUI for yourself and you can take as many screenshots as your little heart desires. Really, you can! Help me (and yourselves) out. I'm not sure anyone can help you. Here's what you need to get started: a positive attitude; a can do attitude. Picture yourself as one of history's great explorer's, put your fear aside and jump in with both feet. Or, stick with Window'$. The *choice* really is yours. Good luck with your decisions, Bob ___ freebsd-questions@freebsd.org mailing list http://lists.freebsd.org/mailman/listinfo/freebsd-questions To unsubscribe, send any mail to [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Re: Convince me, please!
a perfectly acceptable alternative for home desktop users who have previously known only Windows. It's not, and it never will be. never say never, but i wish too it will never be. ___ freebsd-questions@freebsd.org mailing list http://lists.freebsd.org/mailman/listinfo/freebsd-questions To unsubscribe, send any mail to [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Re: Convince me, please!
Latitude wrote: I'm interested in changing over to FreeBSD from Windows, but I'll have to say, you guys don't really present a forceful argument to Windows users of how easy the switch may be. I get knee-deep in FreeBSD jargon the second I get to your webpage. I need to see an overwhelming argument that FreeBSD is a perfectly acceptable alternative for home desktop users who have previously known only Windows. For instance, if I download and install FreeBSD, will I instantly have a desktop windowing environment that I can navigate in while I figure out what's going on? Will I have a browser and way to setup an internet connection right off the bat? How will I migrate files from other operating systems? I understand you guys have been around for a while, but you don't seem to understand the monumental fear involved in switching operating systems. You need to address those concerns head on from the start. I need to see several screenshots of apps that I can use as alternatives to what I have. A) I don't think the FreeBSD team is on a crusade to convert the masses. B) If you want to try it, download the CDs, learn how to partition your drive or get a spare hard disk or buy virtualization software, and you can install it side-by-side with Windows to tinker and learn the OS. C) If Windows is annoying you so much that you're driven to learn another OS, welcome aboard. If you're just hoping for a turnkey solution you may need to switch to a Mac, where you'll still have a learning curve. I'm not trying to chase you away from trying it, but it's a fact that there's no way for you to just go out and get a Windows that works. There's no instant fix to whatever frustrates you about your OS on your system. There's going to be a learning curve. Some are steeper than others, and UNIX has a heritage in the server environment and high-end workstation environments, and it shows. The whole home user bit was not a priority. You may want to invest in a book or two from Amazone or BN, or spend time reading the FreeBSD handbook, which you'll get as a response more often than you'd like on this list because most of your basic questions are answered there. Really your best bet is to use virtualization software or familiarize yourself with dual-booting. -Bart ___ freebsd-questions@freebsd.org mailing list http://lists.freebsd.org/mailman/listinfo/freebsd-questions To unsubscribe, send any mail to [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Re: Convince me, please!
On Wed, 8 Aug 2007, Latitude wrote: I'm interested in changing over to FreeBSD from Windows, Why? but I'll have to say, you guys don't really present a forceful argument to Windows users of how easy the switch may be. FreeBSD finds users by being a quality operating system, not by trying to get people to switch away from Windows. I get knee-deep in FreeBSD jargon the second I get to your webpage. Jargon comes with the territory; Windows itself has a specialized jargon. There are online sources to discover the meanings of jargon terms. I need to see an overwhelming argument that FreeBSD is a perfectly acceptable alternative for home desktop users who have previously known only Windows. FreeBSD as provided is not an alternative to Windows for the home desktop user. It can be set up that way. For instance, if I download and install FreeBSD, will I instantly have a desktop windowing environment that I can navigate in while I figure out what's going on? No. All of that is separate from the operating system, and has to be installed if wanted by the user. Will I have a browser No, there isn't one included in the base system. and way to setup an internet connection right off the bat? Yes, ifconfig, dhclient, and friends are available in the base system. How will I migrate files from other operating systems? It would depend on the files, filesystems, physical media, and other factors like applications. I understand you guys have been around for a while, but you don't seem to understand the monumental fear involved in switching operating systems. You need to address those concerns head on from the start. FreeBSD is mostly not looking for Windows switchers, so the problem doesn't come up. On the other hand, if you or someone else wants to position FreeBSD as a desktop Windows alternative, there's nothing to keep you from making your own modifications and providing the end result. Like these guys: http://www.pcbsd.com I need to see several screenshots of apps that I can use as alternatives to what I have. Pick the applications you want to use, and then choose an operating system that runs them. Most open source applications run on multiple operating systems, including Linux, FreeBSD, and even Windows. Help me (and yourselves) out. All the cool kids are running Ubuntu: http://www.ubuntu.com -Warren Block * Rapid City, South Dakota USA ___ freebsd-questions@freebsd.org mailing list http://lists.freebsd.org/mailman/listinfo/freebsd-questions To unsubscribe, send any mail to [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Re: Convince me, please!
On Wed, Aug 08, 2007 at 11:22:26PM -0500, Latitude wrote: I'm interested in changing over to FreeBSD from Windows, but I'll have to say, you guys don't really present a forceful argument to Windows users of how easy the switch may be. I get knee-deep in FreeBSD jargon the second I get to your webpage. I need to see an overwhelming argument that FreeBSD is a perfectly acceptable alternative for home desktop users who have previously known only Windows. I don't know that such a claim is ever made from within FreeBSD. FreeBSD is Unix, for and by those who know and love Unix. Linux is the one wanting to be a better Windows than Windows. For the best user experience, and Unix too: MacOS X. -- David Kelly N4HHE, [EMAIL PROTECTED] Whom computers would destroy, they must first drive mad. ___ freebsd-questions@freebsd.org mailing list http://lists.freebsd.org/mailman/listinfo/freebsd-questions To unsubscribe, send any mail to [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Re: Convince me, please!
Latitude wrote: I'm interested in changing over to FreeBSD from Windows, but I'll have to say, you guys don't really present a forceful argument to Windows users of how easy the switch may be. I get knee-deep in FreeBSD jargon the second I get to your webpage. I need to see an overwhelming argument that FreeBSD is a perfectly acceptable alternative for home desktop users who have previously known only Windows. For instance, if I download and install FreeBSD, will I instantly have a desktop windowing environment that I can navigate in while I figure out what's going on? Will I have a browser and way to setup an internet connection right off the bat? How will I migrate files from other operating systems? I understand you guys have been around for a while, but you don't seem to understand the monumental fear involved in switching operating systems. You need to address those concerns head on from the start. I need to see several screenshots of apps that I can use as alternatives to what I have. Help me (and yourselves) out. I think you are confused, this is not a contest. If you would like to try FreeBSD as a desktop, there are lots of helpful, friendly, knowledgeable folks here waiting to lend you a hand. If you throw down a gauntlet, all you will do is mess up a really nice glove, it will get stepped on a lot by all the FreeBSD users who don't care. DAve -- Three years now I've asked Google why they don't have a logo change for Memorial Day. Why do they choose to do logos for other non-international holidays, but nothing for Veterans? Maybe they forgot who made that choice possible. ___ freebsd-questions@freebsd.org mailing list http://lists.freebsd.org/mailman/listinfo/freebsd-questions To unsubscribe, send any mail to [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Re: Convince me, please!
Latitude wrote: but I'll have to say, you guys don't really present a forceful argument to Windows users of how easy the switch may be. I suggest you not change from Windows to BSD. It looks like you're best off with an operating system that requires little to no input on your part to set up. It's like asking which is better -- a hammer or a shovel They're both different tools with different strenghts and weaknesses. ___ freebsd-questions@freebsd.org mailing list http://lists.freebsd.org/mailman/listinfo/freebsd-questions To unsubscribe, send any mail to [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Re: Convince me, please!
There is a lot to your question that you may not realize. I think before answering your question, a brief discussion of computers is appropriate. A computer is a phenomenally complex system of parts. If you go to the website of a major Motherboard manufacturer, you will see a huge list of specifications; including chipsets, ports (USB, ethernet, firewire) connectors (SATA, EIDE, SCSI, etc) and so on. The operating system has to know how to talk to all these different systems. There is no real standard for all these parts, although many of the basic components are somewhat standardized, there are specific drivers for USB, ethernet, drive connectors and especially video. Windows does an excellent job of running on almost any hardware. (how well it runs is up for debate) FreeBSD is also pretty good at running on just about any hardware, however, you may need to do some file manipulation to get your video display soundcard or some other peripherals to work. Depending on what hardware you are running, FreeBSd may load and have you up and running with a windows like desktop with a minimum of fuss. If you need to edit and recompile your kernel or hand edit your X windows configuration file , it will become a nightmare. [ or to put it in english; if you have to specify a special driver so that the Operating System knows how to talk to a particular component of your computer, then you need to change the kernel, which controls all of the general hardware of a computer. Unix systems are designed to be a command line OS. The 'X' windows system is what generates the GUI. If you have a non-standard video card and/or monitor, you may need to specify things like horizontal and vertical refresh rates for the monitor, special settings for the video card driver, and other information found in a configuration file to get the GUI to run. ] The general philosophy of most FreeeBSD users is that we are willing to spend time learning about the inner workings of the OS to get the computer to do what we want. From your e-mail, it sounds like you are looking for something that will install as easily as windows and that is not FreeBSD. I would suggest you look at http://www.openoffice.org, if you haven't already, which will show you some alternatives to the standard MS software that you can run on windows. I hope this helps Mark Moellering Psyberation, inc. P.S. I tried to keep the hardware discussion at a basic level and i will ignore any messages pointing out errors in my description of the kernel or X, etc ... On Thursday 09 August 2007 12:22 am, Latitude wrote: I'm interested in changing over to FreeBSD from Windows, but I'll have to say, you guys don't really present a forceful argument to Windows users of how easy the switch may be. I get knee-deep in FreeBSD jargon the second I get to your webpage. I need to see an overwhelming argument that FreeBSD is a perfectly acceptable alternative for home desktop users who have previously known only Windows. For instance, if I download and install FreeBSD, will I instantly have a desktop windowing environment that I can navigate in while I figure out what's going on? Will I have a browser and way to setup an internet connection right off the bat? How will I migrate files from other operating systems? I understand you guys have been around for a while, but you don't seem to understand the monumental fear involved in switching operating systems. You need to address those concerns head on from the start. I need to see several screenshots of apps that I can use as alternatives to what I have. Help me (and yourselves) out. ___ freebsd-questions@freebsd.org mailing list http://lists.freebsd.org/mailman/listinfo/freebsd-questions To unsubscribe, send any mail to [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Re: Convince me, please!
On Thu, 9 Aug 2007 15:11:06 +0200 (CEST) Wojciech Puchar [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: a perfectly acceptable alternative for home desktop users who have previously known only Windows. It's not, and it never will be. never say never, but i wish too it will never be. Please note that the original posting contains a hidden claim that window$ is a perfect, eternal and god-given desktop system. Therefore if you say that FreeBSD will never be a perfectly acceptable alternative... to that, you agree with that hidden claim. window$ as a desktop system is as wrong as it is as an operating system. In my opinion, FreeBSD set up as a desktop system is what a desktop system should be, so FreeBSD with GUI apps _is_ -- or can be if you want -- a perfect desktop system. Or: perfect desktop system has nothing to do with m$'s approach. To Latitude: if you can't accept this ^^^, then don't switch. Nikola Lečić ___ freebsd-questions@freebsd.org mailing list http://lists.freebsd.org/mailman/listinfo/freebsd-questions To unsubscribe, send any mail to [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Re: Convince me, please!
On Thu, 9 Aug 2007 10:02:55 pm Bob Middaugh wrote: I'm interested in changing over to FreeBSD from Windows, but I'll have to say, you guys don't really present a forceful argument to Windows users of how easy the switch may be. Simple, Use a live CD. RoFreesbie, Knoppix, Ubuntu, and several others no doubt, will give you the chance to have a good look and explore without installing. Up to you to decide, then. -- Regards, Brian ___ freebsd-questions@freebsd.org mailing list http://lists.freebsd.org/mailman/listinfo/freebsd-questions To unsubscribe, send any mail to [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Re: Convince me, please!
On Thu, 9 Aug 2007 10:22:51 -0400 Mark Moellering [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: Windows does an excellent job of running on almost any hardware. (how well it runs is up for debate) FreeBSD is also pretty good at running on just about any hardware, however, you may need to do some file manipulation to get your video display soundcard or some other peripherals to work. I deeply disagree here. Any comparison between FreeBSD and window$ in that field is bogus. What an excellent job is windows$ doing? Virtually all hardware is designed having them in mind but in some cases ignoring users of open source systems. Moreover, m$ obviously has a policy of convincing people that hardware exists only to be a platform for window$ and many users really think so. If you buy the simplest piece of hardware such as keyboard, it will come with Running/Works with Windows Vista inscription. This is a deception: it hides the fact that there is nothing special with the simple keyboard. What does this stupid message mean? Nothing, but it reveals a flawed and very harmful approach (for example that your laptop is Designed for Windows XP). So where is there an excellent job? Depending on what hardware you are running, FreeBSd may load and have you up and running with a windows like desktop with a minimum of fuss. If you need to edit and recompile your kernel or hand edit your X windows configuration file , it will become a nightmare. Could you please expand on this? There is no connection between nightmare and things where everything is clear and open. Nikola Lečić ___ freebsd-questions@freebsd.org mailing list http://lists.freebsd.org/mailman/listinfo/freebsd-questions To unsubscribe, send any mail to [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Re: Convince me, please!
I don't know that such a claim is ever made from within FreeBSD. FreeBSD is Unix, for and by those who know and love Unix. Linux is the one that's wwhy i switched from linux to NetBSD then FreeBSD few years ago. wanting to be a better Windows than Windows. and getting worse windows actually ;) For the best user experience, and Unix too: MacOS X. a very little unix (few tools and kernel) + lots of bulky overhead ... ___ freebsd-questions@freebsd.org mailing list http://lists.freebsd.org/mailman/listinfo/freebsd-questions To unsubscribe, send any mail to [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Re: Convince me, please!
Windows does an excellent job of running on almost any hardware. (how well it runs is up for debate) because hardware manufacturers make drivers. only because of that. very little drivers was coded by microsoft by itself, contrary to FreeBSD which has LOTS of drivers included. and running with a windows like desktop with a minimum of fuss. If you need to edit and recompile your kernel or hand edit your X windows configuration file , it will become a nightmare. unless you read the docs. ___ freebsd-questions@freebsd.org mailing list http://lists.freebsd.org/mailman/listinfo/freebsd-questions To unsubscribe, send any mail to [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Re: Convince me, please! - too much about GUI
desktop system should be, so FreeBSD with GUI apps _is_ -- or can be if you want -- a perfect desktop system. i don't use GUI. it takes a lot and gives nothing. i use both text and graphic (X) based apps and no gui. i use fvwm2 with my config, there are plenty of nice other wm's good for that. i need a productive system, no graphical user interfaces etc, that let me actually concentrate of what i have to do! Most of You needs the same, but after years of aggressive marketing/brainwashing think that graphical user interfaces, desktop environments etc. are important. The most stupid but popular claim is that complexity is good. this make people work many TIMES slower, both 100% window$ users and 95-99% unix users. all of this is needed to convince people that every 1-2 year they need new modern computer and the old is worth nothing. and people believe in it. their problem, not mine :) ___ freebsd-questions@freebsd.org mailing list http://lists.freebsd.org/mailman/listinfo/freebsd-questions To unsubscribe, send any mail to [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Re: Convince me, please!
argument to Windows users of how easy the switch may be. Simple, Use a live CD. RoFreesbie, Knoppix, Ubuntu, and several knoppix DVD is very nice. it's actually useful with not very modern (damn cheap) computer without hard disk+pendrive or with very small hard disk. excellent for desktop use, software upgrades are as simple as writing new DVD :) ___ freebsd-questions@freebsd.org mailing list http://lists.freebsd.org/mailman/listinfo/freebsd-questions To unsubscribe, send any mail to [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Re: Convince me, please!
I deeply disagree here. Any comparison between FreeBSD and window$ in that field is bogus. What an excellent job is windows$ doing? washes hundreds millions of brains, to produce constant wide enough stream of cash to microsoft ___ freebsd-questions@freebsd.org mailing list http://lists.freebsd.org/mailman/listinfo/freebsd-questions To unsubscribe, send any mail to [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Re: Convince me, please!
--On August 8, 2007 11:22:26 PM -0500 Latitude [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: I'm interested in changing over to FreeBSD from Windows, but I'll have to say, you guys don't really present a forceful argument to Windows users of how easy the switch may be. I get knee-deep in FreeBSD jargon the second I get to your webpage. I need to see an overwhelming argument that FreeBSD is a perfectly acceptable alternative for home desktop users who have previously known only Windows. I didn't see anyone who simply answered your questions, so here's my attempt to do so. You're not going to get an overwhelming argument from FreeBSDers because that's not how we work. If you want to try it out, be our guest. If you find it frustrating and give up, none of us are going to be heartbroken by your failure. If you're patient, and you ask enough questions, someone here can solve every problem you run in to. For instance, if I download and install FreeBSD, will I instantly have a desktop windowing environment that I can navigate in while I figure out what's going on? No. In fact, if you don't read the documentation first (and Windows users seldom do), you will probably never get a desktop windowing environment. You must configure your desktop environment before it will work. You must also configure it so it starts up by default. Will I have a browser and way to setup an internet connection right off the bat? Depending upon which window manager you choose, you may not have a browser. Depending upon what sort of internet connection you have, you may never get connected. *Especially* if you don't first read the documentation carefully and print it out so you have it handy during the install phase. How will I migrate files from other operating systems? You can mount almost any filesystem on the planet, so moving files to FreeBSD is a snap. But you'd better read the documentation first, or you'll never figure it out. I understand you guys have been around for a while, but you don't seem to understand the monumental fear involved in switching operating systems. You need to address those concerns head on from the start. No, we don't. The idea behind FreeBSD is that you are the owner and operator. That means you make all the decisions and you must understand how to implement them. I need to see several screenshots of apps that I can use as alternatives to what I have. Not everything that's available on Windows *has* an alternative on FreeBSD. Do you homework. Read the documentation. Don't expect others to spoon-feed you because it's not going to happen. Paul Schmehl ([EMAIL PROTECTED]) Senior Information Security Analyst The University of Texas at Dallas http://www.utdallas.edu/ir/security/
Re: Convince me, please!
It's already been mentioned, but I would strongly recommend PCBSD for the windows convert. Having PCBSD allows me to easily setup friends and family with systems that function more like they're used while maintaining all FreeBSD funtionality including the ports tree, blessed be the FreeBSD maintainers. However, it's important to have realistic expections. Things aren't the same, and the learning curve usually takes awhile. -- Adam Vande More Systems Administrator Mobility Sales ___ freebsd-questions@freebsd.org mailing list http://lists.freebsd.org/mailman/listinfo/freebsd-questions To unsubscribe, send any mail to [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Re: Convince me, please!
On 8/9/07, Latitude [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: I'm interested in changing over to FreeBSD from Windows, but I'll have to say, you guys don't really present a forceful argument to Windows users of how easy the switch may be. I get knee-deep in FreeBSD jargon the second I get to your webpage. I need to see an overwhelming argument that FreeBSD is a perfectly acceptable alternative for home desktop users who have previously known only Windows. For instance, if I download and install FreeBSD, will I instantly have a desktop windowing environment that I can navigate in while I figure out what's going on? Will I have a browser and way to setup an internet connection right off the bat? How will I migrate files from other operating systems? I understand you guys have been around for a while, but you don't seem to understand the monumental fear involved in switching operating systems. You need to address those concerns head on from the start. I need to see several screenshots of apps that I can use as alternatives to what I have. Help me (and yourselves) out. -- In a time of universal deceit, telling the truth is a revolutionary act. -George Orwell Hello, Start with DesktopBSD 1.6 since it's closer to FreeBSD than PC-BSD if you need to learn FreeBSD more. -- Regards, -Abdullah Ibn Hamad Al-Marri Arab Portal http://www.WeArab.Net/ ___ freebsd-questions@freebsd.org mailing list http://lists.freebsd.org/mailman/listinfo/freebsd-questions To unsubscribe, send any mail to [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Re: Convince me, please! - too much about GUI
Written by Wojciech Puchar on 08/09/07 12:04 desktop system should be, so FreeBSD with GUI apps _is_ -- or can be if you want -- a perfect desktop system. i don't use GUI. it takes a lot and gives nothing. i use both text and graphic (X) based apps and no gui. i use fvwm2 with my config, there are plenty of nice other wm's good for that. i need a productive system, no graphical user interfaces etc, that let me actually concentrate of what i have to do! Most of You needs the same, but after years of aggressive marketing/brainwashing think that graphical user interfaces, desktop environments etc. are important. The most stupid but popular claim is that complexity is good. this make people work many TIMES slower, both 100% window$ users and 95-99% unix users. all of this is needed to convince people that every 1-2 year they need new modern computer and the old is worth nothing. and people believe in it. their problem, not mine :) My ten year old niece has been brainwashed by the GUI quagmire. She saw my FreeBSD 6-STABLE console on my amd64 3000+ and wanted to know why i was using such an old computer. She had the visual aspect of the user interface ingrained as a measure of the capabilities of the machine. Granted, it could be only because she's ten, but I think we'd find a lot of people think that something has to have more blinky lights and chrome to be better or faster. ___ freebsd-questions@freebsd.org mailing list http://lists.freebsd.org/mailman/listinfo/freebsd-questions To unsubscribe, send any mail to [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Re: Convince me, please!
Brian Astill wrote: On Thu, 9 Aug 2007 10:02:55 pm Bob Middaugh wrote: I'm interested in changing over to FreeBSD from Windows, but I'll have to say, you guys don't really present a forceful argument to Windows users of how easy the switch may be. The switch will not be particularly easy. You will have to learn UNIX. I started running Linux back in Spring, 2000, while I continued running Windows. In about 2003 I started learning FreeBSD because my web host was using that OS. Now, I am hosting my own web/mail server with OpenBSD, and have FreeBSD on a Desktop machine. I still do maintain a Windows 2000 machine for my graphics workstation, and to run my vintage DOS apps. Over the past seven years, I have become considerably less ignorant about computer, operating systems, networks, etc. This is, in my opinion, a very, very, very good thing... but easy??? Nope. -- -wittig http://www.robertwittig.com/ http://robertwittig.net/ http://robertwittig.org/ . ___ freebsd-questions@freebsd.org mailing list http://lists.freebsd.org/mailman/listinfo/freebsd-questions To unsubscribe, send any mail to [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Re: Convince me, please! - too much about GUI
On Thu, 9 Aug 2007 19:04:50 +0200 (CEST) Wojciech Puchar [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: desktop system should be, so FreeBSD with GUI apps _is_ -- or can be if you want -- a perfect desktop system. i don't use GUI. it takes a lot and gives nothing. i use both text and graphic (X) based apps and no gui. i use fvwm2 with my config, there are plenty of nice other wm's good for that. Sorry, I agree with you, s/GUI/graphic based/ in my post. I've just wanted to be clear that X.org and X-apps are not the part of FreeBSD. Nikola Lečić ___ freebsd-questions@freebsd.org mailing list http://lists.freebsd.org/mailman/listinfo/freebsd-questions To unsubscribe, send any mail to [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Re: Convince me, please!
On Thu, Aug 09, 2007 at 06:54:37PM +0200, Wojciech Puchar wrote: For the best user experience, and Unix too: MacOS X. a very little unix (few tools and kernel) + lots of bulky overhead ... Try it, you will find otherwise. The user interface works without hassle. MacOS X comes with more standard utilities than does FreeBSD, for instance procmail, fetchmail, sqlite3, Apache, php 4.4.7, ... -- David Kelly N4HHE, [EMAIL PROTECTED] Whom computers would destroy, they must first drive mad. ___ freebsd-questions@freebsd.org mailing list http://lists.freebsd.org/mailman/listinfo/freebsd-questions To unsubscribe, send any mail to [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Re: Convince me, please! - too much about GUI
On Thu, 09 Aug 2007 12:15:08 -0500 Reid Linnemann [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: My ten year old niece has been brainwashed by the GUI quagmire. She saw my FreeBSD 6-STABLE console on my amd64 3000+ and wanted to know why i was using such an old computer. [...] Granted, it could be only because she's ten. The important part is that she asked you why you used a computer because, like millions of users, she don't make difference between computer and window$ (i.e. OS). People will rarely explicitly state that, of course, but when I speak to some people, I see that they sincerely assume that. That reminds me of a typical brainwashing sencence from window$: when you want to press the reboot icon, the text over your mouse will tell something like Shut down and start Windows again; the sencence contains an explicit equalisation of machine and window$. So I'd say this has nothing to do with one's age. Nikola Lečić ___ freebsd-questions@freebsd.org mailing list http://lists.freebsd.org/mailman/listinfo/freebsd-questions To unsubscribe, send any mail to [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Re: Convince me, please!
Written by David Kelly on 08/09/07 12:30 On Thu, Aug 09, 2007 at 06:54:37PM +0200, Wojciech Puchar wrote: For the best user experience, and Unix too: MacOS X. a very little unix (few tools and kernel) + lots of bulky overhead ... Try it, you will find otherwise. The user interface works without hassle. MacOS X comes with more standard utilities than does FreeBSD, for instance procmail, fetchmail, sqlite3, Apache, php 4.4.7, ... Not that I'm against your argument that OS X is a good system, but since when are 3rd party services standard utilities? ___ freebsd-questions@freebsd.org mailing list http://lists.freebsd.org/mailman/listinfo/freebsd-questions To unsubscribe, send any mail to [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Re: Convince me, please!
On Thu, Aug 09, 2007 at 12:33:20PM -0500, Reid Linnemann wrote: Written by David Kelly on 08/09/07 12:30 On Thu, Aug 09, 2007 at 06:54:37PM +0200, Wojciech Puchar wrote: For the best user experience, and Unix too: MacOS X. a very little unix (few tools and kernel) + lots of bulky overhead ... Try it, you will find otherwise. The user interface works without hassle. MacOS X comes with more standard utilities than does FreeBSD, for instance procmail, fetchmail, sqlite3, Apache, php 4.4.7, ... Not that I'm against your argument that OS X is a good system, but since when are 3rd party services standard utilities? What standard utility in FreeBSD didn't start somewhere outside of BSD? -- David Kelly N4HHE, [EMAIL PROTECTED] Whom computers would destroy, they must first drive mad. ___ freebsd-questions@freebsd.org mailing list http://lists.freebsd.org/mailman/listinfo/freebsd-questions To unsubscribe, send any mail to [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Re: Convince me, please! - too much about GUI
Reid Linnemann wrote: My ten year old niece has been brainwashed by the GUI quagmire. She saw my FreeBSD 6-STABLE console on my amd64 3000+ and wanted to know why i was using such an old computer. She had the visual aspect of the user interface ingrained as a measure of the capabilities of the machine. Granted, it could be only because she's ten, but I think we'd find a lot of people think that something has to have more blinky lights and chrome to be better or faster. ___ freebsd-questions@freebsd.org mailing list http://lists.freebsd.org/mailman/listinfo/freebsd-questions To unsubscribe, send any mail to [EMAIL PROTECTED] I seriously doubt that it's only because she's ten. A friend of mine (who's 37) defines user-friendliness based on the number of tasks he can complete through a GUI. I used to think like that too, but not any longer. I first tried FreeBSD in 1998, but I couldn't get anything running. I just had no idea how, and I was expecting a nice user-friendly GUI, like Windoze, but without the constant crashes. In 1999 I purchased The complete FreeBSD, 3rd edition with CDs included, and this my second try was a lot more sucessful. I was still after a fancy GUI, but this time I got things working. Not without effort though. Over the years since I first tried FreeBSD, my ideas about ease of use have changed quite a lot. I no longer define user-friendliness based on what I can do in the GUI; actually, I'm often annoyed by all the menus, submenus and all the whistles and bells. It's really a lot easier to edit a text file to change some setting, than browsing through heaps of buttons, drop-down lists and all that. Where most Windoze users find Windoze user-friendly, I find it user-hostile, because it hides the simplest things under tons of graphics. For some applications, like image manipulation, a good GUI is a must (at least that's my point of view), but good doesn't mean complex. And a GUI is certainly not needed for running a computer. My friend, whom I mentioned above, says my computer looks like a green screen from 1970's movies. I once tried to guide him over the phone through downloading a file using Windoze's built-in cli FTP client. He didn't even know that such a procedure was possible; he had the idea, that downloading a file required a graphical progress bar. After the file was downloaded (a GUI FTP client), he said it was the most horrible thing he'd ever done, and had comments about this being the 21st century. So, I doubt your niece's comment was just about her being a child. -- Sincerly, Rolf Nielsen ___ freebsd-questions@freebsd.org mailing list http://lists.freebsd.org/mailman/listinfo/freebsd-questions To unsubscribe, send any mail to [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Re: Convince me, please!
Written by David Kelly on 08/09/07 12:56 On Thu, Aug 09, 2007 at 12:33:20PM -0500, Reid Linnemann wrote: Written by David Kelly on 08/09/07 12:30 On Thu, Aug 09, 2007 at 06:54:37PM +0200, Wojciech Puchar wrote: For the best user experience, and Unix too: MacOS X. a very little unix (few tools and kernel) + lots of bulky overhead ... Try it, you will find otherwise. The user interface works without hassle. MacOS X comes with more standard utilities than does FreeBSD, for instance procmail, fetchmail, sqlite3, Apache, php 4.4.7, ... Not that I'm against your argument that OS X is a good system, but since when are 3rd party services standard utilities? What standard utility in FreeBSD didn't start somewhere outside of BSD? I'm not talking about origins, I'm talking about maintainers. The software you've listed are maintained by third parties not affiliated with either operating system, so I don't see how you can consider them standard utilities. ___ freebsd-questions@freebsd.org mailing list http://lists.freebsd.org/mailman/listinfo/freebsd-questions To unsubscribe, send any mail to [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Re: Convince me, please! - too much about GUI
On Thu, Aug 09, 2007 at 08:20:13PM +0200, Rolf G Nielsen wrote: My ten year old niece has been brainwashed by the GUI quagmire. She saw my FreeBSD 6-STABLE console on my amd64 3000+ and wanted to know why i was using such an old computer. She had the visual aspect of the user interface ingrained as a measure of the capabilities of the machine. Granted, it could be only because she's ten, but I think we'd find a lot of people think that something has to have more blinky lights and chrome to be better or faster. I seriously doubt that it's only because she's ten. A friend of mine (who's 37) defines user-friendliness based on the number of tasks he can complete through a GUI. I used to think like that too, but not any longer. I first tried FreeBSD in 1998, but I couldn't get anything running. I just had no idea how, and I was expecting a nice user-friendly GUI, like Windoze, but without the constant crashes. snip Where most Windoze users find Windoze user-friendly, I find it user-hostile, because it hides the simplest things under tons of graphics. For some applications, like image manipulation, a good GUI is a must (at least that's my point of view), but good doesn't mean complex. And a GUI is certainly not needed for running a computer. My friend, whom I mentioned above, says my computer looks like a green screen from 1970's movies. I once tried to guide him over the phone through downloading a file using Windoze's built-in cli FTP client. He didn't even know that such a procedure was possible; he had the idea, that downloading a file required a graphical progress bar. After the file was downloaded (a GUI FTP client), he said it was the most horrible thing he'd ever done, and had comments about this being the 21st century. So, I doubt your niece's comment was just about her being a child. -- Sincerly, Rolf Nielsen User-friendliness is obviously subjective. Some people consider a system to be user-friendly if it doesn't require reading documentation to start using it. Some people consider a system to be user-friendly if there is a simply, efficient interface. It's rare to find software where both of these are true. In business, you simply can't forget the learning curve. Learning how to efficiently use Unix may not be the best use of epmployee time, since most of them know how to use Windows already. This is especially true with high-turnover rates--how much time do you want to spend training someone who will just jump ship for a better paying job in 2 years? Personally, I'm with you. I'm much more efficient on the command-line, but that's only because I've spent a not-insignificant portion of my life using it. I saw the benefits long ago, and even though there was a learning curve (imagine having to actually read documentation rather than going in blindly and clicking!), I feel that it was worth it. Erik ___ freebsd-questions@freebsd.org mailing list http://lists.freebsd.org/mailman/listinfo/freebsd-questions To unsubscribe, send any mail to [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Re: Convince me, please!
On Thu, Aug 09, 2007 at 01:34:47PM -0500, Reid Linnemann wrote: Written by David Kelly on 08/09/07 12:56 What standard utility in FreeBSD didn't start somewhere outside of BSD? I'm not talking about origins, I'm talking about maintainers. The software you've listed are maintained by third parties not affiliated with either operating system, so I don't see how you can consider them standard utilities. Go look at /usr/src/contrib/ and /usr/src/gnu/ for FreeBSD standard items maintained from outside and imported. -- David Kelly N4HHE, [EMAIL PROTECTED] Whom computers would destroy, they must first drive mad. ___ freebsd-questions@freebsd.org mailing list http://lists.freebsd.org/mailman/listinfo/freebsd-questions To unsubscribe, send any mail to [EMAIL PROTECTED]
RE: Convince me, please!
Hello Some Person who may Be Robert -Original Message- From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:owner-freebsd- [EMAIL PROTECTED] On Behalf Of Latitude Sent: Wednesday, August 08, 2007 9:22 PM To: freebsd-questions@FreeBSD.org Subject: Convince me, please! I'm interested in changing over to FreeBSD from Windows, but I'll have to say, you guys don't really present a forceful argument to Windows users of how easy the switch may be. I get knee-deep in FreeBSD jargon the second I get to your webpage. I need to see an overwhelming argument that FreeBSD is a perfectly acceptable alternative for home desktop users who have previously known only Windows. For instance, if I download and install FreeBSD, will I instantly have a desktop windowing environment that I can navigate in while I figure out what's going on? Will I have a browser and way to setup an internet connection right off the bat? How will I migrate files from other operating systems? I understand you guys have been around for a while, but you don't seem to understand the monumental fear involved in switching operating systems. You need to address those concerns head on from the start. I need to see several screenshots of apps that I can use as alternatives to what I have. Help me (and yourselves) out. What problem are you trying to solve? I wouldn't go into any conversion of this sort unless I had a specific reason, even if that reason is because I'm bored with Windows. Each OS out there has a bunch of stuff the others' don't and each user decides what they need from a particular OS and picks the one best-suited to the task. In general, I would say that FreeBSD is not the appropriate choice for a user who is not at least somewhat interested in the how's and why's of the OS. It sounds like you've already got a firm handle on Windows (if you're like many of us you've been using it for years) so you're probably on the tail end of the learning curve. If you elect to go with any other OS (FreeBSD OS X, Linux, etc.) there is going to be a whole new learning curve to accommodate. If you want to delve into FreeBSD then the learning curve is going to include quite a bit of time in front of the CLI. Regards, Mike Smith [EMAIL PROTECTED] (work) [EMAIL PROTECTED] (!work) ___ freebsd-questions@freebsd.org mailing list http://lists.freebsd.org/mailman/listinfo/freebsd-questions To unsubscribe, send any mail to [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Re: Convince me, please!
On Thu, Aug 09, 2007 at 12:30:32PM -0500, David Kelly wrote: On Thu, Aug 09, 2007 at 06:54:37PM +0200, Wojciech Puchar wrote: For the best user experience, and Unix too: MacOS X. a very little unix (few tools and kernel) + lots of bulky overhead ... Try it, you will find otherwise. The user interface works without hassle. MacOS X comes with more standard utilities than does FreeBSD, for instance procmail, fetchmail, sqlite3, Apache, php 4.4.7, ... I don't really think of entirely unnecessary (for most purposes) server software as standard utilities. Speaking only for myself, I *have* tried MacOS X (and used it in a professional capacity), and I too find it to be very little unix with lots of bulky overhead. I also find it actively user-hostile in some of its aesthetic design choices (when your aesthetic sense demands that you make input devices less usable, there's a problem). MacOS X has some definite benefits, but it's not the be-all and end-all of OS design by any stretch. Its biggest benefit is that it's not MS Windows (speaking of user hostility). -- CCD CopyWrite Chad Perrin [ http://ccd.apotheon.org ] print substr(Just another Perl hacker, 0, -2); ___ freebsd-questions@freebsd.org mailing list http://lists.freebsd.org/mailman/listinfo/freebsd-questions To unsubscribe, send any mail to [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Re: Convince me, please!
On Aug 9, 2007, at 10:33 AM, Reid Linnemann wrote: Written by David Kelly on 08/09/07 12:30 On Thu, Aug 09, 2007 at 06:54:37PM +0200, Wojciech Puchar wrote: For the best user experience, and Unix too: MacOS X. a very little unix (few tools and kernel) + lots of bulky overhead ... Try it, you will find otherwise. The user interface works without hassle. MacOS X comes with more standard utilities than does FreeBSD, for instance procmail, fetchmail, sqlite3, Apache, php 4.4.7, ... Not that I'm against your argument that OS X is a good system, but since when are 3rd party services standard utilities? When they ship with the system and when you can get security patches for them from the vendor. Things like BIND and sendmail are 3rd party services which ship standard with FreeBSD, although you do have knobs to not build them if you don't want them. Likewise, you don't have to install the OS X Server utilities or run a mailserver/webserver/etc if you don't want to. -- -Chuck ___ freebsd-questions@freebsd.org mailing list http://lists.freebsd.org/mailman/listinfo/freebsd-questions To unsubscribe, send any mail to [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Re: Convince me, please!
I'm interested in changing over to FreeBSD from Windows, but I'll have to say, you guys don't really present a forceful argument to Windows users of how easy the switch may be. For someone with zero Unix experience. It's not easy. I need to see an overwhelming argument that FreeBSD is a perfectly acceptable alternative for home desktop users who have previously known only Windows. Unless you know some other flavor of Unix, or have the time to invest learning it, or have a local guru to hook you up - it isn't. For instance, if I download and install FreeBSD, will I instantly have a desktop windowing environment that I can navigate in while I figure out what's going on? No. Not unless you install one. I understand you guys have been around for a while, but you don't seem to understand the monumental fear involved in switching operating systems. *Laughs* I do. I came from exactly where you're coming from, the Windows user camp. It's been a very long, frustrating trip, but for me it's been worth it. For those who want an easy to use Windows clone, FreeBSD is not it. FreeBSD is, first and foremost, a server, hence the catch phrase, The power to serve. That's not to say it cannot be configured to be a windows work-alike, it can, but this would require at least some learning of Unix basics to configure the system in this way. For a friendly windows clone, you might look into PC-BSD. It comes out of the box ready for Windows converts. For those coming from a Windows user background, FreeBSD will require a significant investment in time in order to see any benefit. For those who have that time, the rewards are rich indeed. The majority of what you would learn about FreeBSD can also be applied to almost any other flavor of Unix, should you decide to jump ship again. The FreeBSD project has excellent documentation for learning the system, as well as a very supportive mailing list. These two factors are what got the sway vote for me to get onboard over the other Unix flavors. my 2 cents. -Modulok- ___ freebsd-questions@freebsd.org mailing list http://lists.freebsd.org/mailman/listinfo/freebsd-questions To unsubscribe, send any mail to [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Re: Convince me, please!
On 08/08/07, Latitude [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: I'm interested in changing over to FreeBSD from Windows, but I'll have to say, you guys don't really present a forceful argument to Windows users of how easy the switch may be. It is not all that easy, but most people don't remember what a pain in the ass it was to learn how to use winders. I moved away from the microsoft world when I could no longer run a recent version of winders on a 486dx4 at any speed. It was a serious pain to relearn, but unlike 90% of the winders using crowd, I actually remember using dos3.3 and how awful it was to learn, and how horrible the change to winders3.1 was, and how much worse trying to actually use winders9.5 was. I recieved my joyful feeling recently when helping a friend move from winders2.0.0.0 to eckspee: do you have any clue how many gratuitous, undocumented changes to the administrative functions occur with every upgrade? And good luck trying to track down all of the insane locations for personal data. Of course I have drinked most of that incident away, thank Heaven. No, it's not easy, but neiither was learnin' winders. -- -- ___ freebsd-questions@freebsd.org mailing list http://lists.freebsd.org/mailman/listinfo/freebsd-questions To unsubscribe, send any mail to [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Re: Convince me, please!
On Friday 10 August 2007 00:29, [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: On 08/08/07, Latitude [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: I'm interested in changing over to FreeBSD from Windows, but I'll have to say, you guys don't really present a forceful argument to Windows users of how easy the switch may be. Short answer: If windows did not convince you yet, you re not ready to be here. I think no one on this list will try to do that because I beleive all of them convinced themselves that they had to do something, to take the first step (and risks) on the steep learning curve, and jump into the books. If you want to break free of that never-ending cycle of windowsupgrade/hadwareupgrade/windowsupgrade/hwupgrade (and on and on not to mention the dark corners they put out on EVERY new version of it), then Free is the name to run to. But please dont be scared of the work involved. The sensation afterwards is tenfold !! Ie been using FreeBSD since 2.2.8. FreeBSD is going version 7.0 (soon) and compared to most of these guys here, I consider myself a rookey. And I can prety much say that most of them will read your questions and an answer will come from, AT very LEAST, one. The tone may vary according to the FreeBSDer personality, BUT WE WILL HELP YOU. The one and only condition is that you must be walking the path already. We are all in the pool in our shorts, wet,swimming, getting tired sometimes but having FUN, and you are outside, all dressed up in a suit, asking us if you should jump in, if the water is cold, if you will die !! Come on !! take a chance !! you wont beleive the water !! good luck and best wishes -- ** //| //| Mario Lobo // |// | http://www.ipad.com.br // // ||| FreeBSD since 2.2.8 - 100% Rwindows-free ** ___ freebsd-questions@freebsd.org mailing list http://lists.freebsd.org/mailman/listinfo/freebsd-questions To unsubscribe, send any mail to [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Re: Convince me, please!
On Thu, 09 Aug 2007 07:07:53 +0200
Peter Boosten [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote:
-BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE-
Hash: SHA1
Pollywog wrote:
I hope I do not get flamed for saying this...
FreeBSDers don't flame :-)
I am a new arrival to *BSD though I have used Linux for ten years. I think
that if you want a working system right off the bat, PC-BSD or DesktopBSD
would be a better introduction for you.
Yes, I think you're right. Most FreeBSD users are used to do things the
'command line way'.
I think it is more a 'Unix users' rather than FBSD users thing. The fact
remains that unix provides an awesome toolkit that doesnt have (or need)
mouse+button hindrance that only now MS is seriously starting to provide. Yes,
you have all the GUI you want in windows, but to get things fixed when they
borked (or when you want the job done without outguessing the gui) you now have
lots of CLI tools. I find this highly amusing... MS is still coming around to
doing things the unix way ...if only in the long way around...
FreeBSD has a steep learning curve (actually a steep
configuration curve), but once you get things running (and that isn't
that hard) it's rock steady.
Not necessarily more than other unix-like OS, i think. Understanding the system
(ANY system) is key to ease of configuration. If you started learning unix,
properly configuring windows is ... strange, and all over the place
So the advantages aren't necessary won when installing, but more when
using FreeBSD for a while.
applies to all OSes i can think of.
To the OP: if you're not willing to learn, Windows is probably best for
you.
yeah, i agree.
B
_
{Beto|Norberto|Numard} Meijome
There are no stupid questions, but there are a LOT of inquisitive idiots.
I speak for myself, not my employer. Contents may be hot. Slippery when wet.
Reading disclaimers makes you go blind. Writing them is worse. You have been
Warned.
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Re: Convince me, please!
On Wed, 08 Aug 2007 23:22:26 -0500
Latitude [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote:
I'm interested in changing over to FreeBSD from Windows,
Hello Robert,
I don't think I'll tell you what to do - i think most contributors to this
thread have done a pretty good job @ pointing you in the right direction (with
different degrees of shoving involved ;-) ). At least most agree on one fact :
there is no underlying incentive to convert every/most/some/you windows users
to FreeBSD - those who want it will do it. Let Microsoft and Apple marketing
machines do all the convincing for their own products (well, and in the case of
Vista, let the quality of the product be its own counter-sell point :D ).
I also find it very interesting that troll-looking emails like yours generate
so many helpful responses, but then the original poster (ie, you :) ) do not
bother to reply back / follow up.
good luck with your choices,
_
{Beto|Norberto|Numard} Meijome
Those who do not remember the past are condemned to repeat it.
George Santayana
I speak for myself, not my employer. Contents may be hot. Slippery when wet.
Reading disclaimers makes you go blind. Writing them is worse. You have been
Warned.
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Re: Convince me, please!
Norberto Meijome wrote: On Thu, 09 Aug 2007 07:07:53 +0200 Peter Boosten [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: Yes, I think you're right. Most FreeBSD users are used to do things the 'command line way'. I think it is more a 'Unix users' rather than FBSD users thing. The fact remains that unix provides an awesome toolkit that doesnt have (or need) mouse+button hindrance that only now MS is seriously starting to provide. Yes, you have all the GUI you want in windows, but to get things fixed when they borked (or when you want the job done without outguessing the gui) you now have lots of CLI tools. I find this highly amusing... MS is still coming around to doing things the unix way ...if only in the long way around... FreeBSD has a steep learning curve (actually a steep configuration curve), but once you get things running (and that isn't that hard) it's rock steady. Not necessarily more than other unix-like OS, i think. Understanding the system (ANY system) is key to ease of configuration. If you started learning unix, properly configuring windows is ... strange, and all over the place So the advantages aren't necessary won when installing, but more when using FreeBSD for a while. applies to all OSes i can think of. You're right on all answers, but we're talking in this mailing list about FreeBSD ;-) -- http://www.boosten.org ___ freebsd-questions@freebsd.org mailing list http://lists.freebsd.org/mailman/listinfo/freebsd-questions To unsubscribe, send any mail to [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Re: Convince me, please!
On Thursday 09 August 2007 04:22:26 Latitude wrote: I'm interested in changing over to FreeBSD from Windows, but I'll have to say, you guys don't really present a forceful argument to Windows users of how easy the switch may be. I get knee-deep in FreeBSD jargon the second I get to your webpage. I need to see an overwhelming argument that FreeBSD is a perfectly acceptable alternative for home desktop users who have previously known only Windows. For instance, if I download and install FreeBSD, will I instantly have a desktop windowing environment that I can navigate in while I figure out what's going on? Will I have a browser and way to setup an internet connection right off the bat? How will I migrate files from other operating systems? I understand you guys have been around for a while, but you don't seem to understand the monumental fear involved in switching operating systems. You need to address those concerns head on from the start. I need to see several screenshots of apps that I can use as alternatives to what I have. Help me (and yourselves) out. I hope I do not get flamed for saying this... I am a new arrival to *BSD though I have used Linux for ten years. I think that if you want a working system right off the bat, PC-BSD or DesktopBSD would be a better introduction for you. I liked PC-BSD and found it as easy to install as Xandros or Linspire or Freespire Linuxes. I mention those because those Linuxes are easy to install. ___ freebsd-questions@freebsd.org mailing list http://lists.freebsd.org/mailman/listinfo/freebsd-questions To unsubscribe, send any mail to [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Re: Convince me, please!
There is a project based on FreeBSD that you can give a try. Its real easy to install, got a lot of applications ported with an easy to use interface. You can install it and have Internet Explorer and a lot of windows applications working in less than a couple of minutes, and there is a virtual machine version to try it before install. The website is http://www.pcbsd.org and starts saying : PC-BSD has been designed with the 'casual' computer user in mind. Installing the system is simply a matter of a few clicks and a few minutes for the installation process to finish. Hardware such as video, sound, network and other devices will be auto-detected and available at the first system startup. Home users will immediately feel comfortable with PC-BSD's desktop interface, with KDE 3.5 running under the hood. Software installation has also been designed to be as painless as possible, simply double-click and software will be installed. I hope it helps you :-) Sdäv Latitude escribió: I'm interested in changing over to FreeBSD from Windows, but I'll have to say, you guys don't really present a forceful argument to Windows users of how easy the switch may be. I get knee-deep in FreeBSD jargon the second I get to your webpage. I need to see an overwhelming argument that FreeBSD is a perfectly acceptable alternative for home desktop users who have previously known only Windows. For instance, if I download and install FreeBSD, will I instantly have a desktop windowing environment that I can navigate in while I figure out what's going on? Will I have a browser and way to setup an internet connection right off the bat? How will I migrate files from other operating systems? I understand you guys have been around for a while, but you don't seem to understand the monumental fear involved in switching operating systems. You need to address those concerns head on from the start. I need to see several screenshots of apps that I can use as alternatives to what I have. Help me (and yourselves) out. ___ freebsd-questions@freebsd.org mailing list http://lists.freebsd.org/mailman/listinfo/freebsd-questions To unsubscribe, send any mail to [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Re: Convince me, please!
-BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE- Hash: SHA1 Pollywog wrote: I hope I do not get flamed for saying this... FreeBSDers don't flame :-) I am a new arrival to *BSD though I have used Linux for ten years. I think that if you want a working system right off the bat, PC-BSD or DesktopBSD would be a better introduction for you. Yes, I think you're right. Most FreeBSD users are used to do things the 'command line way'. FreeBSD has a steep learning curve (actually a steep configuration curve), but once you get things running (and that isn't that hard) it's rock steady. So the advantages aren't necessary won when installing, but more when using FreeBSD for a while. To the OP: if you're not willing to learn, Windows is probably best for you. My 2ct. Peter - -- http://www.boosten.org -BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE- Version: GnuPG v1.4.3 (MingW32) Comment: Using GnuPG with Mozilla - http://enigmail.mozdev.org iD8DBQFGuqEorvsez6l/SvARAm1OAJ0XzlkSWoAf3A27NOVcEYb3BPYlVQCgwP96 M6fMPGwZ/3iBNAj3qCiMIIg= =/ocX -END PGP SIGNATURE- ___ freebsd-questions@freebsd.org mailing list http://lists.freebsd.org/mailman/listinfo/freebsd-questions To unsubscribe, send any mail to [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Re: Convince me, please!
On 8/9/07, Latitude [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: I'm interested in changing over to FreeBSD from Windows, but I'll have to say, you guys don't really present a forceful argument to Windows users of how easy the switch may be. I get knee-deep in FreeBSD jargon the second I get to your webpage. I need to see an overwhelming argument that FreeBSD is a perfectly acceptable alternative for home desktop users who have previously known only Windows. For instance, if I download and install FreeBSD, will I instantly have a desktop windowing environment that I can navigate in while I figure out what's going on? Will I have a browser and way to setup an internet connection right off the bat? How will I migrate files from other operating systems? I understand you guys have been around for a while, but you don't seem to understand the monumental fear involved in switching operating systems. You need to address those concerns head on from the start. I need to see several screenshots of apps that I can use as alternatives to what I have. Help me (and yourselves) out. Why do you want to switch from Windows to FreeBSD? Much of open-source software is about discovery. Many people here learned how to use FreeBSD by simply spending many hours installing, breaking, fixing, and reinstalling (when fixing fails :) their systems until they became comfortable with the environment. It can be a very enjoyable process, much more so than having a manual explain how everything works. Even so, the FreeBSD handbook is, in my opinion, an excellent source of information even for those who have little prior experience with a unix-like OS. You should try reading it from the beginning to gain some background information about FreeBSD and operating systems in general. If something is unfamiliar to you, google it and see what you come up with. Remember that open-source is based mostly around volunteers who dedicate their time to create something and then give it to you for free. It is expected that you put in some of your own effort in learning how things work and why. Going back to the original question, you should have a reason for switching to FreeBSD. Don't do it just for the sake of switching. If you want to learn something new, that's a good reason in itself, but then you shouldn't be experiencing fear, as you put it. If you are not sure, why not download VMWare Server and play around with FreeBSD in a virtual machine? You still have your windows environment with a web browser and anything else you need while you learn more about this new to you OS. As others suggested, there are versions of FreeBSD that were made from ground up to be used on the desktop. Play around with those if you like, however, I can tell you from my personal experience that it is best to learn an OS like FreeBSD from ground up. Start with a simple terminal and simply follow the directions in the handbook for installing a desktop of your choice. It'll be a much more satisfying experience in the end, even if you run into a few problems while getting there. - Max ___ freebsd-questions@freebsd.org mailing list http://lists.freebsd.org/mailman/listinfo/freebsd-questions To unsubscribe, send any mail to [EMAIL PROTECTED]
