Re: [Audyssey] DirectSound or XAudio
thanks At 11:08 a.m. 24/03/2010, you wrote: Hi Shaun, Go to http://www.blindadrenaline.com and then go to the blind adrenaline card room. Choose the instructions link, then the download link, and it's on that page. HTH! Hayden -Original Message- From: gamers-boun...@audyssey.org [mailto:gamers-boun...@audyssey.org] On Behalf Of shaun everiss Sent: Tuesday, March 23, 2010 5:06 PM To: Gamers Discussion list Subject: Re: [Audyssey] DirectSound or XAudio can you still get that program? where can I get that? I may keep that util round. At 10:52 a.m. 24/03/2010, you wrote: Hi Shaun, In order to do that you'd probably need a utility like Che had made for the Blind Adrenailne Card Room. I still love it, since it was the key to me playing Rail Racer and MOTA; I simply could not figure out why I could not get DirectX to work! Grin Best Regards, Hayden -Original Message- From: gamers-boun...@audyssey.org [mailto:gamers-boun...@audyssey.org] On Behalf Of shaun everiss Sent: Tuesday, March 23, 2010 12:53 PM To: Gamers Discussion list Subject: Re: [Audyssey] DirectSound or XAudio WELL TOM NOT SURE IF YOU CAN DO THIS, BUT IF YOU COULD HAVE SOMETHING ON YOUR WEBSITE THAT DETECTED THINGS IE DIRECTX 9 AND THINGS COMPARING IT AND OTHER THINGS TO THE LATEST VERSIONS. AND IF THINGS WERE OK YOU GOT SAY THE DOWNLOAD PAGE FOR THE GAMES. IF NOT YOU WOULD BE WARNED AND EITHER BARED FROM GOING FURTHER TILL YOU HAD THE REQUIREMENTS OR GIVEN AN OPTION TO CONTINUE. IN BOTH CASES YOU COULD PUT LINKS TO GET THOSE. At 01:01 a.m. 24/03/2010, you wrote: Hi Dark, Well, thanks to some advice given by Davy Kager I definitely think I'm going to give XAudio2 a try. He's been doing some experimentation and development with XAudio2, and from what he said XAudio2 really has some outstanding features. The one issue that really grabbed my attention was the way XAudio2 can perform pitch changes verses the way it is done in DirectSound. For example, in DirectSound if you try to increase the pitch of a car's engine sound from an idle up to a very fast speed like a speeding car, DirectSound will eventually start to distort the sound of the engine which is not cool. With XAudio2 you can change the pitch of the engine up 10 octives very rapidly and not get a lick of distortion. That's pretty impressive, and would resolve an issue I'm having with Raceway. Another issue David Greenwood and I were discussing on the developers list is how 3d audio is rendered on Windows Vista and Windows 7 verses Windows XP. When you play a game like Shades of Doom on Vista, for example, instead of a sound coming out of your left ear it gets positioned at a 45 degree angle off center. This obviously screws up the audio environment completely, and I think is do to the fact Windows Vista has a totally different sound mixer than XP, and no longer renders 3d audio positioning the same way as earlier releases of Windows at least with DirectSound. Neither of us are sure, but the solution with this problem may depend on going with XAudio2 instead of using DirectSound. After all, XAudio2 was specifically designed for Windows Vista and later in mind, and I'm certain Microsoft would have noticed this problem and tried to correct it with XAudio2. If so XAudio2 would be the smart choice since I am running Windows 7 here, and all of my games that have 3d audio environments using DirectSound are completely screwed up and aren't rendered properly. Since 3d FPS games are what Genesis is designed for anything that can correctly render 3d audio environments on Windows Vista and Windows 7 hands down is the most sensable choice. As far as my feelings about installing dependencies goes I agree if a customer isn't able to install required Windows updates that is tough luck. However, as the developer of said game it often falls upon me, through technical support services, to help them perform the updates , and I really would prefer not to have to hand hold new computer users through the installation of DirectX and other Windows components if I don't have to. Never-the-less as XAudio2 seams to be the better solution here I consider DirectX updates a necessity to take advantage of improved audio support. Plus as I've said before for users switching to Windows 7 XAudio2 could be the difference between a incorrectly rendered and a correctly rendered 3d audio environment which makes updating DirectX worth while. So thanks to some technical discussion on the developers list XAudio2 sounds like a better solution all around so far. Cheers! --- Gamers mailing list __ Gamers@audyssey.org If you want to leave the list, send E-mail to gamers-unsubscr...@audyssey.org. You can make changes or update your subscription via the web, at http://audyssey.org/mailman/listinfo/gamers_audyssey.org. All messages are archived and can be searched and read at http://www.mail-archive.com/gam...@audyssey.org. If you have any questions or concerns regarding the management of the list, please send E-mail
Re: [Audyssey] DirectSound or XAudio
thanks am getting this now. At 11:08 a.m. 24/03/2010, you wrote: Hi Shaun, Go to http://www.blindadrenaline.com and then go to the blind adrenaline card room. Choose the instructions link, then the download link, and it's on that page. HTH! Hayden -Original Message- From: gamers-boun...@audyssey.org [mailto:gamers-boun...@audyssey.org] On Behalf Of shaun everiss Sent: Tuesday, March 23, 2010 5:06 PM To: Gamers Discussion list Subject: Re: [Audyssey] DirectSound or XAudio can you still get that program? where can I get that? I may keep that util round. At 10:52 a.m. 24/03/2010, you wrote: Hi Shaun, In order to do that you'd probably need a utility like Che had made for the Blind Adrenailne Card Room. I still love it, since it was the key to me playing Rail Racer and MOTA; I simply could not figure out why I could not get DirectX to work! Grin Best Regards, Hayden -Original Message- From: gamers-boun...@audyssey.org [mailto:gamers-boun...@audyssey.org] On Behalf Of shaun everiss Sent: Tuesday, March 23, 2010 12:53 PM To: Gamers Discussion list Subject: Re: [Audyssey] DirectSound or XAudio WELL TOM NOT SURE IF YOU CAN DO THIS, BUT IF YOU COULD HAVE SOMETHING ON YOUR WEBSITE THAT DETECTED THINGS IE DIRECTX 9 AND THINGS COMPARING IT AND OTHER THINGS TO THE LATEST VERSIONS. AND IF THINGS WERE OK YOU GOT SAY THE DOWNLOAD PAGE FOR THE GAMES. IF NOT YOU WOULD BE WARNED AND EITHER BARED FROM GOING FURTHER TILL YOU HAD THE REQUIREMENTS OR GIVEN AN OPTION TO CONTINUE. IN BOTH CASES YOU COULD PUT LINKS TO GET THOSE. At 01:01 a.m. 24/03/2010, you wrote: Hi Dark, Well, thanks to some advice given by Davy Kager I definitely think I'm going to give XAudio2 a try. He's been doing some experimentation and development with XAudio2, and from what he said XAudio2 really has some outstanding features. The one issue that really grabbed my attention was the way XAudio2 can perform pitch changes verses the way it is done in DirectSound. For example, in DirectSound if you try to increase the pitch of a car's engine sound from an idle up to a very fast speed like a speeding car, DirectSound will eventually start to distort the sound of the engine which is not cool. With XAudio2 you can change the pitch of the engine up 10 octives very rapidly and not get a lick of distortion. That's pretty impressive, and would resolve an issue I'm having with Raceway. Another issue David Greenwood and I were discussing on the developers list is how 3d audio is rendered on Windows Vista and Windows 7 verses Windows XP. When you play a game like Shades of Doom on Vista, for example, instead of a sound coming out of your left ear it gets positioned at a 45 degree angle off center. This obviously screws up the audio environment completely, and I think is do to the fact Windows Vista has a totally different sound mixer than XP, and no longer renders 3d audio positioning the same way as earlier releases of Windows at least with DirectSound. Neither of us are sure, but the solution with this problem may depend on going with XAudio2 instead of using DirectSound. After all, XAudio2 was specifically designed for Windows Vista and later in mind, and I'm certain Microsoft would have noticed this problem and tried to correct it with XAudio2. If so XAudio2 would be the smart choice since I am running Windows 7 here, and all of my games that have 3d audio environments using DirectSound are completely screwed up and aren't rendered properly. Since 3d FPS games are what Genesis is designed for anything that can correctly render 3d audio environments on Windows Vista and Windows 7 hands down is the most sensable choice. As far as my feelings about installing dependencies goes I agree if a customer isn't able to install required Windows updates that is tough luck. However, as the developer of said game it often falls upon me, through technical support services, to help them perform the updates , and I really would prefer not to have to hand hold new computer users through the installation of DirectX and other Windows components if I don't have to. Never-the-less as XAudio2 seams to be the better solution here I consider DirectX updates a necessity to take advantage of improved audio support. Plus as I've said before for users switching to Windows 7 XAudio2 could be the difference between a incorrectly rendered and a correctly rendered 3d audio environment which makes updating DirectX worth while. So thanks to some technical discussion on the developers list XAudio2 sounds like a better solution all around so far. Cheers! --- Gamers mailing list __ Gamers@audyssey.org If you want to leave the list, send E-mail to gamers-unsubscr...@audyssey.org. You can make changes or update your subscription via the web, at http://audyssey.org/mailman/listinfo/gamers_audyssey.org. All messages are archived and can be searched and read at http://www.mail-archive.com/gam...@audyssey.org. If you have any questions or concerns regarding the management of the list
Re: [Audyssey] DirectSound or XAudio
Hi Muhammed, That's not really that complicated. What a person would likely do, if creating a tool like Shaun mentioned, is create a small program that gets downloaded to your PC much like the way Genuine Advantage gets downloaded and installed. In other words it would be basically a browser plugin. that scans your PC, and then sends the information back to the host web site with all the results. A script on the web site recieves the results and displays them on the web page. You see how that works? On 3/23/10, Muhammed Deniz muhamme...@googlemail.com wrote: Shaun, how on earth will that work? I think it needs your Ip address for that matter. Contact info. email: muhamme...@googlemail.com msn: muhammed123...@hotmail.co.uk Skype: muhammed.deniz Klango username. muhammed --- Gamers mailing list __ Gamers@audyssey.org If you want to leave the list, send E-mail to gamers-unsubscr...@audyssey.org. You can make changes or update your subscription via the web, at http://audyssey.org/mailman/listinfo/gamers_audyssey.org. All messages are archived and can be searched and read at http://www.mail-archive.com/gam...@audyssey.org. If you have any questions or concerns regarding the management of the list, please send E-mail to gamers-ow...@audyssey.org.
Re: [Audyssey] DirectSound or XAudio
Ahh, now get it. Didn't know that. Contact info. email: muhamme...@googlemail.com msn: muhammed123...@hotmail.co.uk Skype: muhammed.deniz Klango username. muhammed - Original Message - From: Thomas Ward thomasward1...@gmail.com To: Gamers Discussion list gamers@audyssey.org Sent: Wednesday, March 24, 2010 9:30 AM Subject: Re: [Audyssey] DirectSound or XAudio Hi Muhammed, That's not really that complicated. What a person would likely do, if creating a tool like Shaun mentioned, is create a small program that gets downloaded to your PC much like the way Genuine Advantage gets downloaded and installed. In other words it would be basically a browser plugin. that scans your PC, and then sends the information back to the host web site with all the results. A script on the web site recieves the results and displays them on the web page. You see how that works? On 3/23/10, Muhammed Deniz muhamme...@googlemail.com wrote: Shaun, how on earth will that work? I think it needs your Ip address for that matter. Contact info. email: muhamme...@googlemail.com msn: muhammed123...@hotmail.co.uk Skype: muhammed.deniz Klango username. muhammed --- Gamers mailing list __ Gamers@audyssey.org If you want to leave the list, send E-mail to gamers-unsubscr...@audyssey.org. You can make changes or update your subscription via the web, at http://audyssey.org/mailman/listinfo/gamers_audyssey.org. All messages are archived and can be searched and read at http://www.mail-archive.com/gam...@audyssey.org. If you have any questions or concerns regarding the management of the list, please send E-mail to gamers-ow...@audyssey.org. --- Gamers mailing list __ Gamers@audyssey.org If you want to leave the list, send E-mail to gamers-unsubscr...@audyssey.org. You can make changes or update your subscription via the web, at http://audyssey.org/mailman/listinfo/gamers_audyssey.org. All messages are archived and can be searched and read at http://www.mail-archive.com/gam...@audyssey.org. If you have any questions or concerns regarding the management of the list, please send E-mail to gamers-ow...@audyssey.org.
Re: [Audyssey] DirectSound or XAudio
Hi Dark, Well, thanks to some advice given by Davy Kager I definitely think I'm going to give XAudio2 a try. He's been doing some experimentation and development with XAudio2, and from what he said XAudio2 really has some outstanding features. The one issue that really grabbed my attention was the way XAudio2 can perform pitch changes verses the way it is done in DirectSound. For example, in DirectSound if you try to increase the pitch of a car's engine sound from an idle up to a very fast speed like a speeding car, DirectSound will eventually start to distort the sound of the engine which is not cool. With XAudio2 you can change the pitch of the engine up 10 octives very rapidly and not get a lick of distortion. That's pretty impressive, and would resolve an issue I'm having with Raceway. Another issue David Greenwood and I were discussing on the developers list is how 3d audio is rendered on Windows Vista and Windows 7 verses Windows XP. When you play a game like Shades of Doom on Vista, for example, instead of a sound coming out of your left ear it gets positioned at a 45 degree angle off center. This obviously screws up the audio environment completely, and I think is do to the fact Windows Vista has a totally different sound mixer than XP, and no longer renders 3d audio positioning the same way as earlier releases of Windows at least with DirectSound. Neither of us are sure, but the solution with this problem may depend on going with XAudio2 instead of using DirectSound. After all, XAudio2 was specifically designed for Windows Vista and later in mind, and I'm certain Microsoft would have noticed this problem and tried to correct it with XAudio2. If so XAudio2 would be the smart choice since I am running Windows 7 here, and all of my games that have 3d audio environments using DirectSound are completely screwed up and aren't rendered properly. Since 3d FPS games are what Genesis is designed for anything that can correctly render 3d audio environments on Windows Vista and Windows 7 hands down is the most sensable choice. As far as my feelings about installing dependencies goes I agree if a customer isn't able to install required Windows updates that is tough luck. However, as the developer of said game it often falls upon me, through technical support services, to help them perform the updates , and I really would prefer not to have to hand hold new computer users through the installation of DirectX and other Windows components if I don't have to. Never-the-less as XAudio2 seams to be the better solution here I consider DirectX updates a necessity to take advantage of improved audio support. Plus as I've said before for users switching to Windows 7 XAudio2 could be the difference between a incorrectly rendered and a correctly rendered 3d audio environment which makes updating DirectX worth while. So thanks to some technical discussion on the developers list XAudio2 sounds like a better solution all around so far. Cheers! --- Gamers mailing list __ Gamers@audyssey.org If you want to leave the list, send E-mail to gamers-unsubscr...@audyssey.org. You can make changes or update your subscription via the web, at http://audyssey.org/mailman/listinfo/gamers_audyssey.org. All messages are archived and can be searched and read at http://www.mail-archive.com/gam...@audyssey.org. If you have any questions or concerns regarding the management of the list, please send E-mail to gamers-ow...@audyssey.org.
Re: [Audyssey] DirectSound or XAudio
Hi Hayden, No. DirectShow natively supports a number of video and audio file types including: avi, mp3, mpg, wav, wma, and wmv. However, while it can support audio formats like mp3 and wma it is primarily used for video playback and rendering. For example, mainstream game developers might use DirectShow to play a special cutscene before the game action starts by loading and playing an mpg file containing a movie clip. On Windows Vista and later Windows operating systems DirectShow has officially been replaced by the Windows Media Framework, WMF, for performing audio/video playback.So DirectShow like various other former DirectX components are pretty much ancient history as far as Vista and Windows 7 are concerned. DirectShow is still supported via legacy support, but like a lot of other Windows components is on the way out, and are being replaced by newer and better components and technologies. HTH On 3/22/10, Hayden Presley hdpres...@hotmail.com wrote: Hi Thomas, About compressed file types...I know that Direct Show supports MP3s. Does it only support Mpeg Layer 3 compression? Best Regards, Hayden --- Gamers mailing list __ Gamers@audyssey.org If you want to leave the list, send E-mail to gamers-unsubscr...@audyssey.org. You can make changes or update your subscription via the web, at http://audyssey.org/mailman/listinfo/gamers_audyssey.org. All messages are archived and can be searched and read at http://www.mail-archive.com/gam...@audyssey.org. If you have any questions or concerns regarding the management of the list, please send E-mail to gamers-ow...@audyssey.org.
Re: [Audyssey] DirectSound or XAudio
WELL TOM NOT SURE IF YOU CAN DO THIS, BUT IF YOU COULD HAVE SOMETHING ON YOUR WEBSITE THAT DETECTED THINGS IE DIRECTX 9 AND THINGS COMPARING IT AND OTHER THINGS TO THE LATEST VERSIONS. AND IF THINGS WERE OK YOU GOT SAY THE DOWNLOAD PAGE FOR THE GAMES. IF NOT YOU WOULD BE WARNED AND EITHER BARED FROM GOING FURTHER TILL YOU HAD THE REQUIREMENTS OR GIVEN AN OPTION TO CONTINUE. IN BOTH CASES YOU COULD PUT LINKS TO GET THOSE. At 01:01 a.m. 24/03/2010, you wrote: Hi Dark, Well, thanks to some advice given by Davy Kager I definitely think I'm going to give XAudio2 a try. He's been doing some experimentation and development with XAudio2, and from what he said XAudio2 really has some outstanding features. The one issue that really grabbed my attention was the way XAudio2 can perform pitch changes verses the way it is done in DirectSound. For example, in DirectSound if you try to increase the pitch of a car's engine sound from an idle up to a very fast speed like a speeding car, DirectSound will eventually start to distort the sound of the engine which is not cool. With XAudio2 you can change the pitch of the engine up 10 octives very rapidly and not get a lick of distortion. That's pretty impressive, and would resolve an issue I'm having with Raceway. Another issue David Greenwood and I were discussing on the developers list is how 3d audio is rendered on Windows Vista and Windows 7 verses Windows XP. When you play a game like Shades of Doom on Vista, for example, instead of a sound coming out of your left ear it gets positioned at a 45 degree angle off center. This obviously screws up the audio environment completely, and I think is do to the fact Windows Vista has a totally different sound mixer than XP, and no longer renders 3d audio positioning the same way as earlier releases of Windows at least with DirectSound. Neither of us are sure, but the solution with this problem may depend on going with XAudio2 instead of using DirectSound. After all, XAudio2 was specifically designed for Windows Vista and later in mind, and I'm certain Microsoft would have noticed this problem and tried to correct it with XAudio2. If so XAudio2 would be the smart choice since I am running Windows 7 here, and all of my games that have 3d audio environments using DirectSound are completely screwed up and aren't rendered properly. Since 3d FPS games are what Genesis is designed for anything that can correctly render 3d audio environments on Windows Vista and Windows 7 hands down is the most sensable choice. As far as my feelings about installing dependencies goes I agree if a customer isn't able to install required Windows updates that is tough luck. However, as the developer of said game it often falls upon me, through technical support services, to help them perform the updates , and I really would prefer not to have to hand hold new computer users through the installation of DirectX and other Windows components if I don't have to. Never-the-less as XAudio2 seams to be the better solution here I consider DirectX updates a necessity to take advantage of improved audio support. Plus as I've said before for users switching to Windows 7 XAudio2 could be the difference between a incorrectly rendered and a correctly rendered 3d audio environment which makes updating DirectX worth while. So thanks to some technical discussion on the developers list XAudio2 sounds like a better solution all around so far. Cheers! --- Gamers mailing list __ Gamers@audyssey.org If you want to leave the list, send E-mail to gamers-unsubscr...@audyssey.org. You can make changes or update your subscription via the web, at http://audyssey.org/mailman/listinfo/gamers_audyssey.org. All messages are archived and can be searched and read at http://www.mail-archive.com/gam...@audyssey.org. If you have any questions or concerns regarding the management of the list, please send E-mail to gamers-ow...@audyssey.org. --- Gamers mailing list __ Gamers@audyssey.org If you want to leave the list, send E-mail to gamers-unsubscr...@audyssey.org. You can make changes or update your subscription via the web, at http://audyssey.org/mailman/listinfo/gamers_audyssey.org. All messages are archived and can be searched and read at http://www.mail-archive.com/gam...@audyssey.org. If you have any questions or concerns regarding the management of the list, please send E-mail to gamers-ow...@audyssey.org.
Re: [Audyssey] DirectSound or XAudio
Hi Shaun, Well, there is no way I know of to do it from the web site, but I know some setup/installers do allow you to do version matching/comparison. Microsoft's Advanced Setup Installer allows you to check for things such as .NET, specific DirectX versions, etc but Advanced Setup Installer isn't free. It costs a pretty penny to purchase, and needs to be upgraded from time to time to stay current with version releases. That's one reason I use free setup tools like Inno Setup instead. I think the best low cost alternative here is to install the free DirectX update wizard with the games. That way if the end user runs it all they need to do is download and install the components that need upgraded or installed. The wizard will figure out what needs to be done, and they can just sit back and relax while it does its job.This is a better solution than bundling a 300 MB setup file on the web site for DirectX. Cheers! On 3/23/10, shaun everiss shau...@xtra.co.nz wrote: WELL TOM NOT SURE IF YOU CAN DO THIS, BUT IF YOU COULD HAVE SOMETHING ON YOUR WEBSITE THAT DETECTED THINGS IE DIRECTX 9 AND THINGS COMPARING IT AND OTHER THINGS TO THE LATEST VERSIONS. AND IF THINGS WERE OK YOU GOT SAY THE DOWNLOAD PAGE FOR THE GAMES. IF NOT YOU WOULD BE WARNED AND EITHER BARED FROM GOING FURTHER TILL YOU HAD THE REQUIREMENTS OR GIVEN AN OPTION TO CONTINUE. IN BOTH CASES YOU COULD PUT LINKS TO GET THOSE. --- Gamers mailing list __ Gamers@audyssey.org If you want to leave the list, send E-mail to gamers-unsubscr...@audyssey.org. You can make changes or update your subscription via the web, at http://audyssey.org/mailman/listinfo/gamers_audyssey.org. All messages are archived and can be searched and read at http://www.mail-archive.com/gam...@audyssey.org. If you have any questions or concerns regarding the management of the list, please send E-mail to gamers-ow...@audyssey.org.
Re: [Audyssey] DirectSound or XAudio
Shaun, how on earth will that work? I think it needs your Ip address for that matter. Contact info. email: muhamme...@googlemail.com msn: muhammed123...@hotmail.co.uk Skype: muhammed.deniz Klango username. muhammed - Original Message - From: shaun everiss shau...@xtra.co.nz To: Gamers Discussion list gamers@audyssey.org Sent: Tuesday, March 23, 2010 5:53 PM Subject: Re: [Audyssey] DirectSound or XAudio WELL TOM NOT SURE IF YOU CAN DO THIS, BUT IF YOU COULD HAVE SOMETHING ON YOUR WEBSITE THAT DETECTED THINGS IE DIRECTX 9 AND THINGS COMPARING IT AND OTHER THINGS TO THE LATEST VERSIONS. AND IF THINGS WERE OK YOU GOT SAY THE DOWNLOAD PAGE FOR THE GAMES. IF NOT YOU WOULD BE WARNED AND EITHER BARED FROM GOING FURTHER TILL YOU HAD THE REQUIREMENTS OR GIVEN AN OPTION TO CONTINUE. IN BOTH CASES YOU COULD PUT LINKS TO GET THOSE. At 01:01 a.m. 24/03/2010, you wrote: Hi Dark, Well, thanks to some advice given by Davy Kager I definitely think I'm going to give XAudio2 a try. He's been doing some experimentation and development with XAudio2, and from what he said XAudio2 really has some outstanding features. The one issue that really grabbed my attention was the way XAudio2 can perform pitch changes verses the way it is done in DirectSound. For example, in DirectSound if you try to increase the pitch of a car's engine sound from an idle up to a very fast speed like a speeding car, DirectSound will eventually start to distort the sound of the engine which is not cool. With XAudio2 you can change the pitch of the engine up 10 octives very rapidly and not get a lick of distortion. That's pretty impressive, and would resolve an issue I'm having with Raceway. Another issue David Greenwood and I were discussing on the developers list is how 3d audio is rendered on Windows Vista and Windows 7 verses Windows XP. When you play a game like Shades of Doom on Vista, for example, instead of a sound coming out of your left ear it gets positioned at a 45 degree angle off center. This obviously screws up the audio environment completely, and I think is do to the fact Windows Vista has a totally different sound mixer than XP, and no longer renders 3d audio positioning the same way as earlier releases of Windows at least with DirectSound. Neither of us are sure, but the solution with this problem may depend on going with XAudio2 instead of using DirectSound. After all, XAudio2 was specifically designed for Windows Vista and later in mind, and I'm certain Microsoft would have noticed this problem and tried to correct it with XAudio2. If so XAudio2 would be the smart choice since I am running Windows 7 here, and all of my games that have 3d audio environments using DirectSound are completely screwed up and aren't rendered properly. Since 3d FPS games are what Genesis is designed for anything that can correctly render 3d audio environments on Windows Vista and Windows 7 hands down is the most sensable choice. As far as my feelings about installing dependencies goes I agree if a customer isn't able to install required Windows updates that is tough luck. However, as the developer of said game it often falls upon me, through technical support services, to help them perform the updates , and I really would prefer not to have to hand hold new computer users through the installation of DirectX and other Windows components if I don't have to. Never-the-less as XAudio2 seams to be the better solution here I consider DirectX updates a necessity to take advantage of improved audio support. Plus as I've said before for users switching to Windows 7 XAudio2 could be the difference between a incorrectly rendered and a correctly rendered 3d audio environment which makes updating DirectX worth while. So thanks to some technical discussion on the developers list XAudio2 sounds like a better solution all around so far. Cheers! --- Gamers mailing list __ Gamers@audyssey.org If you want to leave the list, send E-mail to gamers-unsubscr...@audyssey.org. You can make changes or update your subscription via the web, at http://audyssey.org/mailman/listinfo/gamers_audyssey.org. All messages are archived and can be searched and read at http://www.mail-archive.com/gam...@audyssey.org. If you have any questions or concerns regarding the management of the list, please send E-mail to gamers-ow...@audyssey.org. --- Gamers mailing list __ Gamers@audyssey.org If you want to leave the list, send E-mail to gamers-unsubscr...@audyssey.org. You can make changes or update your subscription via the web, at http://audyssey.org/mailman/listinfo/gamers_audyssey.org. All messages are archived and can be searched and read at http://www.mail-archive.com/gam...@audyssey.org. If you have any questions or concerns regarding the management of the list, please send E-mail to gamers-ow...@audyssey.org. --- Gamers mailing list __ Gamers@audyssey.org If you want to leave the list, send E-mail to gamers-unsubscr...@audyssey.org. You can make changes
Re: [Audyssey] DirectSound or XAudio
Hi Shaun, In order to do that you'd probably need a utility like Che had made for the Blind Adrenailne Card Room. I still love it, since it was the key to me playing Rail Racer and MOTA; I simply could not figure out why I could not get DirectX to work! Grin Best Regards, Hayden -Original Message- From: gamers-boun...@audyssey.org [mailto:gamers-boun...@audyssey.org] On Behalf Of shaun everiss Sent: Tuesday, March 23, 2010 12:53 PM To: Gamers Discussion list Subject: Re: [Audyssey] DirectSound or XAudio WELL TOM NOT SURE IF YOU CAN DO THIS, BUT IF YOU COULD HAVE SOMETHING ON YOUR WEBSITE THAT DETECTED THINGS IE DIRECTX 9 AND THINGS COMPARING IT AND OTHER THINGS TO THE LATEST VERSIONS. AND IF THINGS WERE OK YOU GOT SAY THE DOWNLOAD PAGE FOR THE GAMES. IF NOT YOU WOULD BE WARNED AND EITHER BARED FROM GOING FURTHER TILL YOU HAD THE REQUIREMENTS OR GIVEN AN OPTION TO CONTINUE. IN BOTH CASES YOU COULD PUT LINKS TO GET THOSE. At 01:01 a.m. 24/03/2010, you wrote: Hi Dark, Well, thanks to some advice given by Davy Kager I definitely think I'm going to give XAudio2 a try. He's been doing some experimentation and development with XAudio2, and from what he said XAudio2 really has some outstanding features. The one issue that really grabbed my attention was the way XAudio2 can perform pitch changes verses the way it is done in DirectSound. For example, in DirectSound if you try to increase the pitch of a car's engine sound from an idle up to a very fast speed like a speeding car, DirectSound will eventually start to distort the sound of the engine which is not cool. With XAudio2 you can change the pitch of the engine up 10 octives very rapidly and not get a lick of distortion. That's pretty impressive, and would resolve an issue I'm having with Raceway. Another issue David Greenwood and I were discussing on the developers list is how 3d audio is rendered on Windows Vista and Windows 7 verses Windows XP. When you play a game like Shades of Doom on Vista, for example, instead of a sound coming out of your left ear it gets positioned at a 45 degree angle off center. This obviously screws up the audio environment completely, and I think is do to the fact Windows Vista has a totally different sound mixer than XP, and no longer renders 3d audio positioning the same way as earlier releases of Windows at least with DirectSound. Neither of us are sure, but the solution with this problem may depend on going with XAudio2 instead of using DirectSound. After all, XAudio2 was specifically designed for Windows Vista and later in mind, and I'm certain Microsoft would have noticed this problem and tried to correct it with XAudio2. If so XAudio2 would be the smart choice since I am running Windows 7 here, and all of my games that have 3d audio environments using DirectSound are completely screwed up and aren't rendered properly. Since 3d FPS games are what Genesis is designed for anything that can correctly render 3d audio environments on Windows Vista and Windows 7 hands down is the most sensable choice. As far as my feelings about installing dependencies goes I agree if a customer isn't able to install required Windows updates that is tough luck. However, as the developer of said game it often falls upon me, through technical support services, to help them perform the updates , and I really would prefer not to have to hand hold new computer users through the installation of DirectX and other Windows components if I don't have to. Never-the-less as XAudio2 seams to be the better solution here I consider DirectX updates a necessity to take advantage of improved audio support. Plus as I've said before for users switching to Windows 7 XAudio2 could be the difference between a incorrectly rendered and a correctly rendered 3d audio environment which makes updating DirectX worth while. So thanks to some technical discussion on the developers list XAudio2 sounds like a better solution all around so far. Cheers! --- Gamers mailing list __ Gamers@audyssey.org If you want to leave the list, send E-mail to gamers-unsubscr...@audyssey.org. You can make changes or update your subscription via the web, at http://audyssey.org/mailman/listinfo/gamers_audyssey.org. All messages are archived and can be searched and read at http://www.mail-archive.com/gam...@audyssey.org. If you have any questions or concerns regarding the management of the list, please send E-mail to gamers-ow...@audyssey.org. --- Gamers mailing list __ Gamers@audyssey.org If you want to leave the list, send E-mail to gamers-unsubscr...@audyssey.org. You can make changes or update your subscription via the web, at http://audyssey.org/mailman/listinfo/gamers_audyssey.org. All messages are archived and can be searched and read at http://www.mail-archive.com/gam...@audyssey.org. If you have any questions or concerns regarding the management of the list, please send E-mail to gamers-ow...@audyssey.org. --- Gamers mailing list __ Gamers@audyssey.org If you want to leave
Re: [Audyssey] DirectSound or XAudio
well your ip goes out to the net anyway. unless you mask it. At 07:48 a.m. 24/03/2010, you wrote: Shaun, how on earth will that work? I think it needs your Ip address for that matter. Contact info. email: muhamme...@googlemail.com msn: muhammed123...@hotmail.co.uk Skype: muhammed.deniz Klango username. muhammed - Original Message - From: shaun everiss shau...@xtra.co.nz To: Gamers Discussion list gamers@audyssey.org Sent: Tuesday, March 23, 2010 5:53 PM Subject: Re: [Audyssey] DirectSound or XAudio WELL TOM NOT SURE IF YOU CAN DO THIS, BUT IF YOU COULD HAVE SOMETHING ON YOUR WEBSITE THAT DETECTED THINGS IE DIRECTX 9 AND THINGS COMPARING IT AND OTHER THINGS TO THE LATEST VERSIONS. AND IF THINGS WERE OK YOU GOT SAY THE DOWNLOAD PAGE FOR THE GAMES. IF NOT YOU WOULD BE WARNED AND EITHER BARED FROM GOING FURTHER TILL YOU HAD THE REQUIREMENTS OR GIVEN AN OPTION TO CONTINUE. IN BOTH CASES YOU COULD PUT LINKS TO GET THOSE. At 01:01 a.m. 24/03/2010, you wrote: Hi Dark, Well, thanks to some advice given by Davy Kager I definitely think I'm going to give XAudio2 a try. He's been doing some experimentation and development with XAudio2, and from what he said XAudio2 really has some outstanding features. The one issue that really grabbed my attention was the way XAudio2 can perform pitch changes verses the way it is done in DirectSound. For example, in DirectSound if you try to increase the pitch of a car's engine sound from an idle up to a very fast speed like a speeding car, DirectSound will eventually start to distort the sound of the engine which is not cool. With XAudio2 you can change the pitch of the engine up 10 octives very rapidly and not get a lick of distortion. That's pretty impressive, and would resolve an issue I'm having with Raceway. Another issue David Greenwood and I were discussing on the developers list is how 3d audio is rendered on Windows Vista and Windows 7 verses Windows XP. When you play a game like Shades of Doom on Vista, for example, instead of a sound coming out of your left ear it gets positioned at a 45 degree angle off center. This obviously screws up the audio environment completely, and I think is do to the fact Windows Vista has a totally different sound mixer than XP, and no longer renders 3d audio positioning the same way as earlier releases of Windows at least with DirectSound. Neither of us are sure, but the solution with this problem may depend on going with XAudio2 instead of using DirectSound. After all, XAudio2 was specifically designed for Windows Vista and later in mind, and I'm certain Microsoft would have noticed this problem and tried to correct it with XAudio2. If so XAudio2 would be the smart choice since I am running Windows 7 here, and all of my games that have 3d audio environments using DirectSound are completely screwed up and aren't rendered properly. Since 3d FPS games are what Genesis is designed for anything that can correctly render 3d audio environments on Windows Vista and Windows 7 hands down is the most sensable choice. As far as my feelings about installing dependencies goes I agree if a customer isn't able to install required Windows updates that is tough luck. However, as the developer of said game it often falls upon me, through technical support services, to help them perform the updates , and I really would prefer not to have to hand hold new computer users through the installation of DirectX and other Windows components if I don't have to. Never-the-less as XAudio2 seams to be the better solution here I consider DirectX updates a necessity to take advantage of improved audio support. Plus as I've said before for users switching to Windows 7 XAudio2 could be the difference between a incorrectly rendered and a correctly rendered 3d audio environment which makes updating DirectX worth while. So thanks to some technical discussion on the developers list XAudio2 sounds like a better solution all around so far. Cheers! --- Gamers mailing list __ Gamers@audyssey.org If you want to leave the list, send E-mail to gamers-unsubscr...@audyssey.org. You can make changes or update your subscription via the web, at http://audyssey.org/mailman/listinfo/gamers_audyssey.org. All messages are archived and can be searched and read at http://www.mail-archive.com/gam...@audyssey.org. If you have any questions or concerns regarding the management of the list, please send E-mail to gamers-ow...@audyssey.org. --- Gamers mailing list __ Gamers@audyssey.org If you want to leave the list, send E-mail to gamers-unsubscr...@audyssey.org. You can make changes or update your subscription via the web, at http://audyssey.org/mailman/listinfo/gamers_audyssey.org. All messages are archived and can be searched and read at http://www.mail-archive.com/gam...@audyssey.org. If you have any questions or concerns regarding the management of the list, please send E-mail to gamers-ow...@audyssey.org. --- Gamers mailing list __ Gamers@audyssey.org If you want to leave
Re: [Audyssey] DirectSound or XAudio
can you still get that program? where can I get that? I may keep that util round. At 10:52 a.m. 24/03/2010, you wrote: Hi Shaun, In order to do that you'd probably need a utility like Che had made for the Blind Adrenailne Card Room. I still love it, since it was the key to me playing Rail Racer and MOTA; I simply could not figure out why I could not get DirectX to work! Grin Best Regards, Hayden -Original Message- From: gamers-boun...@audyssey.org [mailto:gamers-boun...@audyssey.org] On Behalf Of shaun everiss Sent: Tuesday, March 23, 2010 12:53 PM To: Gamers Discussion list Subject: Re: [Audyssey] DirectSound or XAudio WELL TOM NOT SURE IF YOU CAN DO THIS, BUT IF YOU COULD HAVE SOMETHING ON YOUR WEBSITE THAT DETECTED THINGS IE DIRECTX 9 AND THINGS COMPARING IT AND OTHER THINGS TO THE LATEST VERSIONS. AND IF THINGS WERE OK YOU GOT SAY THE DOWNLOAD PAGE FOR THE GAMES. IF NOT YOU WOULD BE WARNED AND EITHER BARED FROM GOING FURTHER TILL YOU HAD THE REQUIREMENTS OR GIVEN AN OPTION TO CONTINUE. IN BOTH CASES YOU COULD PUT LINKS TO GET THOSE. At 01:01 a.m. 24/03/2010, you wrote: Hi Dark, Well, thanks to some advice given by Davy Kager I definitely think I'm going to give XAudio2 a try. He's been doing some experimentation and development with XAudio2, and from what he said XAudio2 really has some outstanding features. The one issue that really grabbed my attention was the way XAudio2 can perform pitch changes verses the way it is done in DirectSound. For example, in DirectSound if you try to increase the pitch of a car's engine sound from an idle up to a very fast speed like a speeding car, DirectSound will eventually start to distort the sound of the engine which is not cool. With XAudio2 you can change the pitch of the engine up 10 octives very rapidly and not get a lick of distortion. That's pretty impressive, and would resolve an issue I'm having with Raceway. Another issue David Greenwood and I were discussing on the developers list is how 3d audio is rendered on Windows Vista and Windows 7 verses Windows XP. When you play a game like Shades of Doom on Vista, for example, instead of a sound coming out of your left ear it gets positioned at a 45 degree angle off center. This obviously screws up the audio environment completely, and I think is do to the fact Windows Vista has a totally different sound mixer than XP, and no longer renders 3d audio positioning the same way as earlier releases of Windows at least with DirectSound. Neither of us are sure, but the solution with this problem may depend on going with XAudio2 instead of using DirectSound. After all, XAudio2 was specifically designed for Windows Vista and later in mind, and I'm certain Microsoft would have noticed this problem and tried to correct it with XAudio2. If so XAudio2 would be the smart choice since I am running Windows 7 here, and all of my games that have 3d audio environments using DirectSound are completely screwed up and aren't rendered properly. Since 3d FPS games are what Genesis is designed for anything that can correctly render 3d audio environments on Windows Vista and Windows 7 hands down is the most sensable choice. As far as my feelings about installing dependencies goes I agree if a customer isn't able to install required Windows updates that is tough luck. However, as the developer of said game it often falls upon me, through technical support services, to help them perform the updates , and I really would prefer not to have to hand hold new computer users through the installation of DirectX and other Windows components if I don't have to. Never-the-less as XAudio2 seams to be the better solution here I consider DirectX updates a necessity to take advantage of improved audio support. Plus as I've said before for users switching to Windows 7 XAudio2 could be the difference between a incorrectly rendered and a correctly rendered 3d audio environment which makes updating DirectX worth while. So thanks to some technical discussion on the developers list XAudio2 sounds like a better solution all around so far. Cheers! --- Gamers mailing list __ Gamers@audyssey.org If you want to leave the list, send E-mail to gamers-unsubscr...@audyssey.org. You can make changes or update your subscription via the web, at http://audyssey.org/mailman/listinfo/gamers_audyssey.org. All messages are archived and can be searched and read at http://www.mail-archive.com/gam...@audyssey.org. If you have any questions or concerns regarding the management of the list, please send E-mail to gamers-ow...@audyssey.org. --- Gamers mailing list __ Gamers@audyssey.org If you want to leave the list, send E-mail to gamers-unsubscr...@audyssey.org. You can make changes or update your subscription via the web, at http://audyssey.org/mailman/listinfo/gamers_audyssey.org. All messages are archived and can be searched and read at http://www.mail-archive.com/gam...@audyssey.org. If you have any questions or concerns regarding the management of the list
Re: [Audyssey] DirectSound or XAudio
Hi Shaun, Go to http://www.blindadrenaline.com and then go to the blind adrenaline card room. Choose the instructions link, then the download link, and it's on that page. HTH! Hayden -Original Message- From: gamers-boun...@audyssey.org [mailto:gamers-boun...@audyssey.org] On Behalf Of shaun everiss Sent: Tuesday, March 23, 2010 5:06 PM To: Gamers Discussion list Subject: Re: [Audyssey] DirectSound or XAudio can you still get that program? where can I get that? I may keep that util round. At 10:52 a.m. 24/03/2010, you wrote: Hi Shaun, In order to do that you'd probably need a utility like Che had made for the Blind Adrenailne Card Room. I still love it, since it was the key to me playing Rail Racer and MOTA; I simply could not figure out why I could not get DirectX to work! Grin Best Regards, Hayden -Original Message- From: gamers-boun...@audyssey.org [mailto:gamers-boun...@audyssey.org] On Behalf Of shaun everiss Sent: Tuesday, March 23, 2010 12:53 PM To: Gamers Discussion list Subject: Re: [Audyssey] DirectSound or XAudio WELL TOM NOT SURE IF YOU CAN DO THIS, BUT IF YOU COULD HAVE SOMETHING ON YOUR WEBSITE THAT DETECTED THINGS IE DIRECTX 9 AND THINGS COMPARING IT AND OTHER THINGS TO THE LATEST VERSIONS. AND IF THINGS WERE OK YOU GOT SAY THE DOWNLOAD PAGE FOR THE GAMES. IF NOT YOU WOULD BE WARNED AND EITHER BARED FROM GOING FURTHER TILL YOU HAD THE REQUIREMENTS OR GIVEN AN OPTION TO CONTINUE. IN BOTH CASES YOU COULD PUT LINKS TO GET THOSE. At 01:01 a.m. 24/03/2010, you wrote: Hi Dark, Well, thanks to some advice given by Davy Kager I definitely think I'm going to give XAudio2 a try. He's been doing some experimentation and development with XAudio2, and from what he said XAudio2 really has some outstanding features. The one issue that really grabbed my attention was the way XAudio2 can perform pitch changes verses the way it is done in DirectSound. For example, in DirectSound if you try to increase the pitch of a car's engine sound from an idle up to a very fast speed like a speeding car, DirectSound will eventually start to distort the sound of the engine which is not cool. With XAudio2 you can change the pitch of the engine up 10 octives very rapidly and not get a lick of distortion. That's pretty impressive, and would resolve an issue I'm having with Raceway. Another issue David Greenwood and I were discussing on the developers list is how 3d audio is rendered on Windows Vista and Windows 7 verses Windows XP. When you play a game like Shades of Doom on Vista, for example, instead of a sound coming out of your left ear it gets positioned at a 45 degree angle off center. This obviously screws up the audio environment completely, and I think is do to the fact Windows Vista has a totally different sound mixer than XP, and no longer renders 3d audio positioning the same way as earlier releases of Windows at least with DirectSound. Neither of us are sure, but the solution with this problem may depend on going with XAudio2 instead of using DirectSound. After all, XAudio2 was specifically designed for Windows Vista and later in mind, and I'm certain Microsoft would have noticed this problem and tried to correct it with XAudio2. If so XAudio2 would be the smart choice since I am running Windows 7 here, and all of my games that have 3d audio environments using DirectSound are completely screwed up and aren't rendered properly. Since 3d FPS games are what Genesis is designed for anything that can correctly render 3d audio environments on Windows Vista and Windows 7 hands down is the most sensable choice. As far as my feelings about installing dependencies goes I agree if a customer isn't able to install required Windows updates that is tough luck. However, as the developer of said game it often falls upon me, through technical support services, to help them perform the updates , and I really would prefer not to have to hand hold new computer users through the installation of DirectX and other Windows components if I don't have to. Never-the-less as XAudio2 seams to be the better solution here I consider DirectX updates a necessity to take advantage of improved audio support. Plus as I've said before for users switching to Windows 7 XAudio2 could be the difference between a incorrectly rendered and a correctly rendered 3d audio environment which makes updating DirectX worth while. So thanks to some technical discussion on the developers list XAudio2 sounds like a better solution all around so far. Cheers! --- Gamers mailing list __ Gamers@audyssey.org If you want to leave the list, send E-mail to gamers-unsubscr...@audyssey.org. You can make changes or update your subscription via the web, at http://audyssey.org/mailman/listinfo/gamers_audyssey.org. All messages are archived and can be searched and read at http://www.mail-archive.com/gam...@audyssey.org. If you have any questions or concerns regarding the management of the list, please send E-mail to gamers-ow...@audyssey.org. --- Gamers
[Audyssey] DirectSound or XAudio
Hi all, As most of you know I've spent the last three or four months converting my engine code from C# .NET to C++. At last after three/four months of hard work the engine is almost ready to begin using for building Mysteries of the Ancients beta 11. The one area of the engine I haven't quite completed though is the sound core. Initially I was using FMOD Ex 4.28, which is fine, but as you may know that requires a special license to use in commercial products. When incorperated into a game engine the license costs a lot more. I really don't have the money right now to pay for the license so I've been thinking about using DirectSound 8 or XAudio2.What I'm looking for is some educated advice which I should use for my engine. On one hand I know DirectSound 8 is old, is now technically moved to the legacy branch of DirectX, but it also is quite stable and very backwards compatible with older Windows releases. Plus Windows XP, Vista, and Windows 7 all come with it installed so no need to upgrade DirectX to use it. Thus if I go with DirectSound 8 I don't have to install anything extra, or ask anyone to upgrade DirectX. All of these things are compelling reasons for choosing DirectSound 8. On the other hand XAudio2 looks very promising. For one thing it is a lot newer, is designed for Windows releases beyond Windows 7, and is currently being supported by Microsoft. This means going with it now will save me some trouble upgrading my games when the time comes that DirectSound is officially removed from DirectX altogether, but nobody knows when that will be.Too many games and other multimedia products depend on DirectSound to just up and drop it as Microsoft well knows. They probably won't drop it completely until XAudio2 has fully replaced DirectSound for newer games and other multimedia products. So the fact that XAudio2 is current doesn't necessarily mean DirectSound is a bad option. It just means my games will be more up to date so to speak. However, as i said before there are some features that make it promising. For one thing I see according to the docs you can play and stream some compressed file types like wma and xwma. This is obviously a great feature as some music and ambience tracks can be quite big. Having support for some compressed file types makes it a good choice in that regard. Besides that XAudio2 has some improvements in DSP support and can be used to mix sounds for 5.1 and 7.1 sound cards which is very good since the fact we depend on an entire audio environment to begin with. The more realistic sounding the mixer is the more realistic the game's audio environment will be. However, even though a game may support such a high tech sound environment most of my customers are likely to be stuck with some budget sound card like a Soundmax AC-97 that shipped with their computer. So I'm not really certain that putting extra work into specifically supporting 5.1 or 7.1 mixing will do them a whole heck of a lot of good without the higher end hardware. If this is the case then Xaudio2 3d mixing won't be much better than DirectSound's 3d mixing if they don't have the equipment to take advantage of the better 3d mixing. Any thoughts here? Has anyone actually sat down and compared these two APIs and have a better list of pros and cons? More to the point which do you think I should pick? I can basically use either one right now, and I should be able to update the engine in a day or so once I figure out which to use for the project. Thanks. --- Gamers mailing list __ Gamers@audyssey.org If you want to leave the list, send E-mail to gamers-unsubscr...@audyssey.org. You can make changes or update your subscription via the web, at http://audyssey.org/mailman/listinfo/gamers_audyssey.org. All messages are archived and can be searched and read at http://www.mail-archive.com/gam...@audyssey.org. If you have any questions or concerns regarding the management of the list, please send E-mail to gamers-ow...@audyssey.org.
Re: [Audyssey] DirectSound or XAudio
Hi Thomas, My vote goes to DirectSound. All cons considered it is rock solid, and it's been tried and tested for 10 years. XAudio2 is the future, certainly, but not quite yet in my mind. Eventually I intend making Streemway support both DirectSound and XAudio2 and adjust itself depending on Windows version, and since Streemway has a wrapper API I don't need to modify my own games to integrate this; just Streemway itself. Kind regards, Philip Bennefall - Original Message - From: Thomas Ward thomasward1...@gmail.com To: Gamers Discussion list gamers@audyssey.org Sent: Monday, March 22, 2010 7:01 AM Subject: [Audyssey] DirectSound or XAudio Hi all, As most of you know I've spent the last three or four months converting my engine code from C# .NET to C++. At last after three/four months of hard work the engine is almost ready to begin using for building Mysteries of the Ancients beta 11. The one area of the engine I haven't quite completed though is the sound core. Initially I was using FMOD Ex 4.28, which is fine, but as you may know that requires a special license to use in commercial products. When incorperated into a game engine the license costs a lot more. I really don't have the money right now to pay for the license so I've been thinking about using DirectSound 8 or XAudio2.What I'm looking for is some educated advice which I should use for my engine. On one hand I know DirectSound 8 is old, is now technically moved to the legacy branch of DirectX, but it also is quite stable and very backwards compatible with older Windows releases. Plus Windows XP, Vista, and Windows 7 all come with it installed so no need to upgrade DirectX to use it. Thus if I go with DirectSound 8 I don't have to install anything extra, or ask anyone to upgrade DirectX. All of these things are compelling reasons for choosing DirectSound 8. On the other hand XAudio2 looks very promising. For one thing it is a lot newer, is designed for Windows releases beyond Windows 7, and is currently being supported by Microsoft. This means going with it now will save me some trouble upgrading my games when the time comes that DirectSound is officially removed from DirectX altogether, but nobody knows when that will be.Too many games and other multimedia products depend on DirectSound to just up and drop it as Microsoft well knows. They probably won't drop it completely until XAudio2 has fully replaced DirectSound for newer games and other multimedia products. So the fact that XAudio2 is current doesn't necessarily mean DirectSound is a bad option. It just means my games will be more up to date so to speak. However, as i said before there are some features that make it promising. For one thing I see according to the docs you can play and stream some compressed file types like wma and xwma. This is obviously a great feature as some music and ambience tracks can be quite big. Having support for some compressed file types makes it a good choice in that regard. Besides that XAudio2 has some improvements in DSP support and can be used to mix sounds for 5.1 and 7.1 sound cards which is very good since the fact we depend on an entire audio environment to begin with. The more realistic sounding the mixer is the more realistic the game's audio environment will be. However, even though a game may support such a high tech sound environment most of my customers are likely to be stuck with some budget sound card like a Soundmax AC-97 that shipped with their computer. So I'm not really certain that putting extra work into specifically supporting 5.1 or 7.1 mixing will do them a whole heck of a lot of good without the higher end hardware. If this is the case then Xaudio2 3d mixing won't be much better than DirectSound's 3d mixing if they don't have the equipment to take advantage of the better 3d mixing. Any thoughts here? Has anyone actually sat down and compared these two APIs and have a better list of pros and cons? More to the point which do you think I should pick? I can basically use either one right now, and I should be able to update the engine in a day or so once I figure out which to use for the project. Thanks. --- Gamers mailing list __ Gamers@audyssey.org If you want to leave the list, send E-mail to gamers-unsubscr...@audyssey.org. You can make changes or update your subscription via the web, at http://audyssey.org/mailman/listinfo/gamers_audyssey.org. All messages are archived and can be searched and read at http://www.mail-archive.com/gam...@audyssey.org. If you have any questions or concerns regarding the management of the list, please send E-mail to gamers-ow...@audyssey.org. --- Gamers mailing list __ Gamers@audyssey.org If you want to leave the list, send E-mail to gamers-unsubscr...@audyssey.org. You can make changes or update your subscription via the web, at http://audyssey.org/mailman/listinfo/gamers_audyssey.org. All messages are archived and can be searched and read at http://www.mail-archive.com/gam
Re: [Audyssey] DirectSound or XAudio
hmmm well we already need dotnet for most things and directx is not to bad I upgrade every so often anyway. xna can be put into the installers its small as. I already run entombed. Ok so the down side? dotnet stuff in general and xna stuff takes some time to load although you have the advantage of incription on sounds entombed for example has their music in wma and their sounds in xsb and xnb sound banks which I can't open. on the other hand most don't have the hardware and so direct sound8 is ok though most will need dx9c anyway for games in general. I don't care any way. Even though I don't have it I'd prefur that you had the support in case I upgrade my hardware or just for room. I hate games where they will only run on sertain systems. Right now for example one friend has a load of old games that don't support hd video. they work but things stutter and systems reset and things go bonkas and so every few days a reformat is needed, because some games don't run with the hardware well. Even if you had a detection for that support in there maybe even an option to select the sound support. I have good headsets I wander if I could run full 3d like they do in shades of doom. in fact I may switch to that effect just to see. unfortunately my hd card realtech does not have the full mutherload of memmory the standard one has so i can't take advantage of its effects but I feel like a bit of dooming now you mention it. At 07:01 p.m. 22/03/2010, you wrote: Hi all, As most of you know I've spent the last three or four months converting my engine code from C# .NET to C++. At last after three/four months of hard work the engine is almost ready to begin using for building Mysteries of the Ancients beta 11. The one area of the engine I haven't quite completed though is the sound core. Initially I was using FMOD Ex 4.28, which is fine, but as you may know that requires a special license to use in commercial products. When incorperated into a game engine the license costs a lot more. I really don't have the money right now to pay for the license so I've been thinking about using DirectSound 8 or XAudio2.What I'm looking for is some educated advice which I should use for my engine. On one hand I know DirectSound 8 is old, is now technically moved to the legacy branch of DirectX, but it also is quite stable and very backwards compatible with older Windows releases. Plus Windows XP, Vista, and Windows 7 all come with it installed so no need to upgrade DirectX to use it. Thus if I go with DirectSound 8 I don't have to install anything extra, or ask anyone to upgrade DirectX. All of these things are compelling reasons for choosing DirectSound 8. On the other hand XAudio2 looks very promising. For one thing it is a lot newer, is designed for Windows releases beyond Windows 7, and is currently being supported by Microsoft. This means going with it now will save me some trouble upgrading my games when the time comes that DirectSound is officially removed from DirectX altogether, but nobody knows when that will be.Too many games and other multimedia products depend on DirectSound to just up and drop it as Microsoft well knows. They probably won't drop it completely until XAudio2 has fully replaced DirectSound for newer games and other multimedia products. So the fact that XAudio2 is current doesn't necessarily mean DirectSound is a bad option. It just means my games will be more up to date so to speak. However, as i said before there are some features that make it promising. For one thing I see according to the docs you can play and stream some compressed file types like wma and xwma. This is obviously a great feature as some music and ambience tracks can be quite big. Having support for some compressed file types makes it a good choice in that regard. Besides that XAudio2 has some improvements in DSP support and can be used to mix sounds for 5.1 and 7.1 sound cards which is very good since the fact we depend on an entire audio environment to begin with. The more realistic sounding the mixer is the more realistic the game's audio environment will be. However, even though a game may support such a high tech sound environment most of my customers are likely to be stuck with some budget sound card like a Soundmax AC-97 that shipped with their computer. So I'm not really certain that putting extra work into specifically supporting 5.1 or 7.1 mixing will do them a whole heck of a lot of good without the higher end hardware. If this is the case then Xaudio2 3d mixing won't be much better than DirectSound's 3d mixing if they don't have the equipment to take advantage of the better 3d mixing. Any thoughts here? Has anyone actually sat down and compared these two APIs and have a better list of pros and cons? More to the point which do you think I should pick? I can basically use either one right now, and I should be able to update the engine in a day or so once I figure out which to use for the project. Thanks. --- Gamers
Re: [Audyssey] DirectSound or XAudio
thats a point phill if both can be supported and then have it autoswitch or have an option in a menu to switch if the system finds both, in my system for example where I have all the libs for just about everything that needs to exist I'd like that. At 07:08 p.m. 22/03/2010, you wrote: Hi Thomas, My vote goes to DirectSound. All cons considered it is rock solid, and it's been tried and tested for 10 years. XAudio2 is the future, certainly, but not quite yet in my mind. Eventually I intend making Streemway support both DirectSound and XAudio2 and adjust itself depending on Windows version, and since Streemway has a wrapper API I don't need to modify my own games to integrate this; just Streemway itself. Kind regards, Philip Bennefall - Original Message - From: Thomas Ward thomasward1...@gmail.com To: Gamers Discussion list gamers@audyssey.org Sent: Monday, March 22, 2010 7:01 AM Subject: [Audyssey] DirectSound or XAudio Hi all, As most of you know I've spent the last three or four months converting my engine code from C# .NET to C++. At last after three/four months of hard work the engine is almost ready to begin using for building Mysteries of the Ancients beta 11. The one area of the engine I haven't quite completed though is the sound core. Initially I was using FMOD Ex 4.28, which is fine, but as you may know that requires a special license to use in commercial products. When incorperated into a game engine the license costs a lot more. I really don't have the money right now to pay for the license so I've been thinking about using DirectSound 8 or XAudio2.What I'm looking for is some educated advice which I should use for my engine. On one hand I know DirectSound 8 is old, is now technically moved to the legacy branch of DirectX, but it also is quite stable and very backwards compatible with older Windows releases. Plus Windows XP, Vista, and Windows 7 all come with it installed so no need to upgrade DirectX to use it. Thus if I go with DirectSound 8 I don't have to install anything extra, or ask anyone to upgrade DirectX. All of these things are compelling reasons for choosing DirectSound 8. On the other hand XAudio2 looks very promising. For one thing it is a lot newer, is designed for Windows releases beyond Windows 7, and is currently being supported by Microsoft. This means going with it now will save me some trouble upgrading my games when the time comes that DirectSound is officially removed from DirectX altogether, but nobody knows when that will be.Too many games and other multimedia products depend on DirectSound to just up and drop it as Microsoft well knows. They probably won't drop it completely until XAudio2 has fully replaced DirectSound for newer games and other multimedia products. So the fact that XAudio2 is current doesn't necessarily mean DirectSound is a bad option. It just means my games will be more up to date so to speak. However, as i said before there are some features that make it promising. For one thing I see according to the docs you can play and stream some compressed file types like wma and xwma. This is obviously a great feature as some music and ambience tracks can be quite big. Having support for some compressed file types makes it a good choice in that regard. Besides that XAudio2 has some improvements in DSP support and can be used to mix sounds for 5.1 and 7.1 sound cards which is very good since the fact we depend on an entire audio environment to begin with. The more realistic sounding the mixer is the more realistic the game's audio environment will be. However, even though a game may support such a high tech sound environment most of my customers are likely to be stuck with some budget sound card like a Soundmax AC-97 that shipped with their computer. So I'm not really certain that putting extra work into specifically supporting 5.1 or 7.1 mixing will do them a whole heck of a lot of good without the higher end hardware. If this is the case then Xaudio2 3d mixing won't be much better than DirectSound's 3d mixing if they don't have the equipment to take advantage of the better 3d mixing. Any thoughts here? Has anyone actually sat down and compared these two APIs and have a better list of pros and cons? More to the point which do you think I should pick? I can basically use either one right now, and I should be able to update the engine in a day or so once I figure out which to use for the project. Thanks. --- Gamers mailing list __ Gamers@audyssey.org If you want to leave the list, send E-mail to gamers-unsubscr...@audyssey.org. You can make changes or update your subscription via the web, at http://audyssey.org/mailman/listinfo/gamers_audyssey.org. All messages are archived and can be searched and read at http://www.mail-archive.com/gam...@audyssey.org. If you have any questions or concerns regarding the management of the list, please send E-mail to gamers-ow...@audyssey.org. --- Gamers mailing list __ Gamers@audyssey.org If you want
Re: [Audyssey] DirectSound or XAudio
Hi Tom. I'm not really up on too many of the technical differences, but reading your message sseveral thoughts did occur to me. First, why worry about people having to upgrade direct X? myself I'm quite willing to install several versions of net framework and direct X upgrades for games, and really they don't cause problems, and if someone is too lazy to download another file, well more fool them, and it isn't as if your asking them to install an entire environment such as python or java. Second, pre-xp windows really won't even support modern net brousing. My dad currently is using my old windows 98 laptop (which has a dead battery system, a not very functional fan, but may be used on mains power for short periods), and keeps phoning me to ask how to view standard web pages sinse a lot of display features just aren't supported in windows 98. I really therefore wouldn't be concerned about compatibility that! far backwards. While I myself will continue to use xp for now, when it gets to the stage that I can't brouse the internet with it, I'll upgrade. Third, If I understood you correctly on the 3D sound aspects, Dsaudio will support cards with 5.1 and 7.1 surround sound, where as direct sound won't, but both would sound the same on a bog standard sterrio sound card. Given that some people will! have such systems, or might considder upgrading to such systems in the future, I really don't see why they shouldn't get the bennifit of better equipment if they have it. If it was a question of supporting one or the other, well obviously you go with what most people are likely to have, however if it's a question of supporting both, or only supporting sterrio, I don't really see the issue in supporting both. ffourth, preempting tinkering with upgrading your games in future is good, look at the vista debate which has already happened. Obviously if your games will run on windows 8 as well, in five years or so when people are switching to that, it will save hastle. fifth, from what you say dsaudio sounds like a technically better system, --- -i certainly see the value of using compressed formats such as wma rather than having everything in wav. I'd hate to see a situation where you considdered limiting sounds in a game because of size of download, so, why not go for compression. I hope this random rambling is useful. As I said, this is just my thoughts based on your message, --- and I can't claime any tecnical expertees in the area of sound programming, but there were features you mentioned which seemed to make a difference to the user, hence my comments. Beware the grue! Dark. --- Gamers mailing list __ Gamers@audyssey.org If you want to leave the list, send E-mail to gamers-unsubscr...@audyssey.org. You can make changes or update your subscription via the web, at http://audyssey.org/mailman/listinfo/gamers_audyssey.org. All messages are archived and can be searched and read at http://www.mail-archive.com/gam...@audyssey.org. If you have any questions or concerns regarding the management of the list, please send E-mail to gamers-ow...@audyssey.org.
Re: [Audyssey] DirectSound or XAudio
I don't know the newer one at all, but have been playing around with DirectSound myself a little bit FWIW, and it seems to thin it does have support for 3.1 and 5.1, 7.1 and surround speakers AFAIK, but not really relevant. Stay well Jacob Kruger Blind Biker Skype: BlindZA '...fate had broken his body, but not his spirit...' - Original Message - From: Thomas Ward thomasward1...@gmail.com To: Gamers Discussion list gamers@audyssey.org Sent: Monday, March 22, 2010 8:01 AM Subject: [Audyssey] DirectSound or XAudio Hi all, As most of you know I've spent the last three or four months converting my engine code from C# .NET to C++. At last after three/four months of hard work the engine is almost ready to begin using for building Mysteries of the Ancients beta 11. The one area of the engine I haven't quite completed though is the sound core. Initially I was using FMOD Ex 4.28, which is fine, but as you may know that requires a special license to use in commercial products. When incorperated into a game engine the license costs a lot more. I really don't have the money right now to pay for the license so I've been thinking about using DirectSound 8 or XAudio2.What I'm looking for is some educated advice which I should use for my engine. On one hand I know DirectSound 8 is old, is now technically moved to the legacy branch of DirectX, but it also is quite stable and very backwards compatible with older Windows releases. Plus Windows XP, Vista, and Windows 7 all come with it installed so no need to upgrade DirectX to use it. Thus if I go with DirectSound 8 I don't have to install anything extra, or ask anyone to upgrade DirectX. All of these things are compelling reasons for choosing DirectSound 8. On the other hand XAudio2 looks very promising. For one thing it is a lot newer, is designed for Windows releases beyond Windows 7, and is currently being supported by Microsoft. This means going with it now will save me some trouble upgrading my games when the time comes that DirectSound is officially removed from DirectX altogether, but nobody knows when that will be.Too many games and other multimedia products depend on DirectSound to just up and drop it as Microsoft well knows. They probably won't drop it completely until XAudio2 has fully replaced DirectSound for newer games and other multimedia products. So the fact that XAudio2 is current doesn't necessarily mean DirectSound is a bad option. It just means my games will be more up to date so to speak. However, as i said before there are some features that make it promising. For one thing I see according to the docs you can play and stream some compressed file types like wma and xwma. This is obviously a great feature as some music and ambience tracks can be quite big. Having support for some compressed file types makes it a good choice in that regard. Besides that XAudio2 has some improvements in DSP support and can be used to mix sounds for 5.1 and 7.1 sound cards which is very good since the fact we depend on an entire audio environment to begin with. The more realistic sounding the mixer is the more realistic the game's audio environment will be. However, even though a game may support such a high tech sound environment most of my customers are likely to be stuck with some budget sound card like a Soundmax AC-97 that shipped with their computer. So I'm not really certain that putting extra work into specifically supporting 5.1 or 7.1 mixing will do them a whole heck of a lot of good without the higher end hardware. If this is the case then Xaudio2 3d mixing won't be much better than DirectSound's 3d mixing if they don't have the equipment to take advantage of the better 3d mixing. Any thoughts here? Has anyone actually sat down and compared these two APIs and have a better list of pros and cons? More to the point which do you think I should pick? I can basically use either one right now, and I should be able to update the engine in a day or so once I figure out which to use for the project. Thanks. --- Gamers mailing list __ Gamers@audyssey.org If you want to leave the list, send E-mail to gamers-unsubscr...@audyssey.org. You can make changes or update your subscription via the web, at http://audyssey.org/mailman/listinfo/gamers_audyssey.org. All messages are archived and can be searched and read at http://www.mail-archive.com/gam...@audyssey.org. If you have any questions or concerns regarding the management of the list, please send E-mail to gamers-ow...@audyssey.org. __ Information from ESET NOD32 Antivirus, version of virus signature database 4963 (20100321) __ The message was checked by ESET NOD32 Antivirus. http://www.eset.com __ Information from ESET NOD32 Antivirus, version of virus signature database 4963 (20100321) __ The message was checked by ESET NOD32 Antivirus. http://www.eset.com --- Gamers mailing list __ Gamers@audyssey.org If you want to leave the list, send E-mail
Re: [Audyssey] DirectSound or XAudio
well not to mention that dotnet is part of the critical and optional windows updates so unless you don't update don't use autoupdate and don't visit the site often like I do, or just don't go online or something you prity much need to upgrade. No excuse not to. you will need directx which can be a pain to get unless you use sites like softwarepatch.com or google search it whenever I don't always get the latest but I do every few months. So yeah go for the later xna thingy. win xp has about I think either 3-4 years life left, for support and while you can buy it still prices are in favor of win7 xp actually costs loads more than win7 for those that must have old software but they really want you to get the newer stuff. I may even get that myself at some point once I manage to get the cash to upgrade my readers which I will. I may concider that. At 07:59 p.m. 22/03/2010, you wrote: Hi Tom. I'm not really up on too many of the technical differences, but reading your message sseveral thoughts did occur to me. First, why worry about people having to upgrade direct X? myself I'm quite willing to install several versions of net framework and direct X upgrades for games, and really they don't cause problems, and if someone is too lazy to download another file, well more fool them, and it isn't as if your asking them to install an entire environment such as python or java. Second, pre-xp windows really won't even support modern net brousing. My dad currently is using my old windows 98 laptop (which has a dead battery system, a not very functional fan, but may be used on mains power for short periods), and keeps phoning me to ask how to view standard web pages sinse a lot of display features just aren't supported in windows 98. I really therefore wouldn't be concerned about compatibility that! far backwards. While I myself will continue to use xp for now, when it gets to the stage that I can't brouse the internet with it, I'll upgrade. Third, If I understood you correctly on the 3D sound aspects, Dsaudio will support cards with 5.1 and 7.1 surround sound, where as direct sound won't, but both would sound the same on a bog standard sterrio sound card. Given that some people will! have such systems, or might considder upgrading to such systems in the future, I really don't see why they shouldn't get the bennifit of better equipment if they have it. If it was a question of supporting one or the other, well obviously you go with what most people are likely to have, however if it's a question of supporting both, or only supporting sterrio, I don't really see the issue in supporting both. ffourth, preempting tinkering with upgrading your games in future is good, look at the vista debate which has already happened. Obviously if your games will run on windows 8 as well, in five years or so when people are switching to that, it will save hastle. fifth, from what you say dsaudio sounds like a technically better system, --- -i certainly see the value of using compressed formats such as wma rather than having everything in wav. I'd hate to see a situation where you considdered limiting sounds in a game because of size of download, so, why not go for compression. I hope this random rambling is useful. As I said, this is just my thoughts based on your message, --- and I can't claime any tecnical expertees in the area of sound programming, but there were features you mentioned which seemed to make a difference to the user, hence my comments. Beware the grue! Dark. --- Gamers mailing list __ Gamers@audyssey.org If you want to leave the list, send E-mail to gamers-unsubscr...@audyssey.org. You can make changes or update your subscription via the web, at http://audyssey.org/mailman/listinfo/gamers_audyssey.org. All messages are archived and can be searched and read at http://www.mail-archive.com/gam...@audyssey.org. If you have any questions or concerns regarding the management of the list, please send E-mail to gamers-ow...@audyssey.org. --- Gamers mailing list __ Gamers@audyssey.org If you want to leave the list, send E-mail to gamers-unsubscr...@audyssey.org. You can make changes or update your subscription via the web, at http://audyssey.org/mailman/listinfo/gamers_audyssey.org. All messages are archived and can be searched and read at http://www.mail-archive.com/gam...@audyssey.org. If you have any questions or concerns regarding the management of the list, please send E-mail to gamers-ow...@audyssey.org.
Re: [Audyssey] DirectSound or XAudio
Hi Thomas, Here is the advantages of XAudio2 from an article: An Introduction and Overview of XAudio2 by Brian Schmidt Gamasutra January 29, 2008 XAudio2 Features and Architecture XAudio2 provides many features necessary for the creation of modern game sound design: Cross platform between Xbox 360 and Windows-based platforms, including Microsoft Windows XP and Windows Vista Arbitrary levels of submixing A simple streaming model A software-based, dynamic DSP effects model, both local and global Simple C language code for arbitrary DSP processing using xAPOs (audio processing objects) Native compressed data support: XMA and xWMA on Xbox 360, ADPCM and xWMA on Windows A complement of DSP audio effects Fully transparent surround sound/3D audio processing Clean separation of voices from data Non-blocking processing suitable for multi-core, multi-threaded systems Efficient and optimized for Windows and Xbox 360 Optimized in-line filter on each voice There are three main components in XAudio: source voices, submix voices, and a mastering voice. A source voice is most analogous to a DirectSound buffer. You create a source voice when you want to play a sound. You can set parameters on a voice, such as pitch and volume, and specify the volume levels for each speaker for surround effects. You can also dynamically place arbitrary software-based DSP effects on a source voice. Once you create a source voice, you point it to a piece of sound data in memory and play it. (This data can be in a variety of formats: PCM, XMA, or xWMA for Xbox; PCM, ADPCM, or xWMA for Windows.). A source voice can also point to no source data, if it contains software for direct generation of audio data. By default, the output is sent to the speakers via the mastering voice, but a source voice can also send its output to one or more submix voices as well. A submix voice is much like a source voice, with two differences. First, the sound data for a submix voice is not a piece of sound data in memory, but rather the output of another source (or submix) voice. Secondly, a submix voice can have multiple inputs-each of the inputs will be mixed by the submix voice before processing. As with source voices, you can insert arbitrary software DSP effects into a submix voice-in this case, the DSP will process the aggregate mix of all the inputs. Submix voices also have built-in filters, and can be panned to the speakers just like a source voice can. Submix voices are very useful for creating complex sound effects from multiple wave files. They can also be used to create audio submixes-for example a sound effects mix, a dialog mix, a music mix, and so on-in the way that professional mixing consoles have buses. Submix buses are also used for global effects, such as a global reverb. The final component is the mastering voice. There is only one mastering voice, and its job is to create the final N-channel (stereo, 5.1, 7.1) output to present to the speakers. The mastering voice takes input from all the source voices and submix voices, combines them and prepares them for output. As with source voices and submix voices, software DSP effects can be placed on the mastering voice. Most typically a 5.1 mastering limiter or global EQ is inserted into the mastering voice for that final, polished sound. The following figure shows a simple XAudio2 graph playing two sounds with an environmental reverb. The top two source voices are playing sound data to create a single composite sound that is routed to the submix voice. From the submix voice, a 5.1 send goes to the mastering voice and a mono send goes to another submix voice that hosts a global reverb effect. 3D panning for the composite sound is performed on the first submix voice. The bottom source voice is used to play a single sound. Its 5.1 output goes to the mastering voice and also has a mono send to the global reverb. Of course, many more options are possible, but this shows a common case. DSP Effects and xAPOs DSP effects in XAudio2 are performed using software audio processing objects (xAPOs). An xAPO is a lightweight wrapper for audio signal processing combined with a standard method for getting and setting appropriate DSP effects parameters. Since xAPOs are cross-platform, it is easy to write software-based audio DSP effects that can be run on both Windows and Xbox 360. Typical software effects might include reverb, filtering, echo or other effects, but can also include physical modeling synthesis, granular synthesis, or any kind of wacky audio DSP you might come up with! You can write processor-specific optimizations for Xbox and Windows, but that's not required. 3D and Surround Sound 3D and surround sound in XAudio2 is perhaps the biggest departure from
Re: [Audyssey] DirectSound or XAudio
Hi Shaun, I believed I asked for an educated opinion about DirectSound verses XAudio2, and your message is anything but educated on the subject. First, of all I wasn't talking about the XNA Framework which is a .NET based wrapper for the newer DirectX libraries such as XInput, XAudio, and so on. Second, there is a difference between XAudio and XAudio2 that you probably aren't aware of. XAudio is an older library which uses a tool called XAct to compile wav and wma files into special soundbanks, with some default presets, and isn't remotely accessible. XAudio2 on the other hand is more like DirectSound where you can load wav and wma files into sound buffers directly and allows a developer to apply real time DSP effects and position sounds in 3d via standard C++ code instead of requiring the use of XAct to setup the audio environment and set default presets. Please, if you are going to comment on a technical discussion at least research the topic somewhat before diving in head first and talking out your backside all the time. Cheers! On 3/22/10, shaun everiss shau...@xtra.co.nz wrote: hmmm well we already need dotnet for most things and directx is not to bad I upgrade every so often anyway. xna can be put into the installers its small as. I already run entombed. Ok so the down side? dotnet stuff in general and xna stuff takes some time to load although you have the advantage of incription on sounds entombed for example has their music in wma and their sounds in xsb and xnb sound banks which I can't open. on the other hand most don't have the hardware and so direct sound8 is ok though most will need dx9c anyway for games in general. I don't care any way. Even though I don't have it I'd prefur that you had the support in case I upgrade my hardware or just for room. I hate games where they will only run on sertain systems. Right now for example one friend has a load of old games that don't support hd video. they work but things stutter and systems reset and things go bonkas and so every few days a reformat is needed, because some games don't run with the hardware well. Even if you had a detection for that support in there maybe even an option to select the sound support. I have good headsets I wander if I could run full 3d like they do in shades of doom. in fact I may switch to that effect just to see. unfortunately my hd card realtech does not have the full mutherload of memmory the standard one has so i can't take advantage of its effects but I feel like a bit of dooming now you mention it. --- Gamers mailing list __ Gamers@audyssey.org If you want to leave the list, send E-mail to gamers-unsubscr...@audyssey.org. You can make changes or update your subscription via the web, at http://audyssey.org/mailman/listinfo/gamers_audyssey.org. All messages are archived and can be searched and read at http://www.mail-archive.com/gam...@audyssey.org. If you have any questions or concerns regarding the management of the list, please send E-mail to gamers-ow...@audyssey.org.
Re: [Audyssey] DirectSound or XAudio
Hi Phil, Thanks for the article. I definitely found it informative and educational. I'm not sure if it helps me decide between DirectSound or XAudio2, but it gives me an in depth technical blow by blow comparison which comes in handy to know. It does sound like XAudio2 is definitely the way of the future, and has lots of technical improvements over DirectSound by a long shot. However, as usual it sounds like it has a bit of a learning curve since it has a lot of new concepts and ways of doing things. Cheers! --- Gamers mailing list __ Gamers@audyssey.org If you want to leave the list, send E-mail to gamers-unsubscr...@audyssey.org. You can make changes or update your subscription via the web, at http://audyssey.org/mailman/listinfo/gamers_audyssey.org. All messages are archived and can be searched and read at http://www.mail-archive.com/gam...@audyssey.org. If you have any questions or concerns regarding the management of the list, please send E-mail to gamers-ow...@audyssey.org.
Re: [Audyssey] DirectSound or XAudio
Hi Shaun, Why exactly do you think getting DirectX updates is a pain? Why not simply go to the official DirectX web page http://www.microsoft.com/directx and download them. It is easy to find and download, and that is where I always get my DirectX updates from. In fact, in the future I'm probably going to just include a link to the DirectX main page instead of downloading and putting the files on my own web server. Cheers! On 3/22/10, shaun everiss shau...@xtra.co.nz wrote: well not to mention that dotnet is part of the critical and optional windows updates so unless you don't update don't use autoupdate and don't visit the site often like I do, or just don't go online or something you prity much need to upgrade. No excuse not to. you will need directx which can be a pain to get unless you use sites like softwarepatch.com or google search it whenever I don't always get the latest but I do every few months. So yeah go for the later xna thingy. win xp has about I think either 3-4 years life left, for support and while you can buy it still prices are in favor of win7 xp actually costs loads more than win7 for those that must have old software but they really want you to get the newer stuff. I may even get that myself at some point once I manage to get the cash to upgrade my readers which I will. I may concider that. At 07:59 p.m. 22/03/2010, you wrote: Hi Tom. I'm not really up on too many of the technical differences, but reading your message sseveral thoughts did occur to me. First, why worry about people having to upgrade direct X? myself I'm quite willing to install several versions of net framework and direct X upgrades for games, and really they don't cause problems, and if someone is too lazy to download another file, well more fool them, and it isn't as if your asking them to install an entire environment such as python or java. Second, pre-xp windows really won't even support modern net brousing. My dad currently is using my old windows 98 laptop (which has a dead battery system, a not very functional fan, but may be used on mains power for short periods), and keeps phoning me to ask how to view standard web pages sinse a lot of display features just aren't supported in windows 98. I really therefore wouldn't be concerned about compatibility that! far backwards. While I myself will continue to use xp for now, when it gets to the stage that I can't brouse the internet with it, I'll upgrade. Third, If I understood you correctly on the 3D sound aspects, Dsaudio will support cards with 5.1 and 7.1 surround sound, where as direct sound won't, but both would sound the same on a bog standard sterrio sound card. Given that some people will! have such systems, or might considder upgrading to such systems in the future, I really don't see why they shouldn't get the bennifit of better equipment if they have it. If it was a question of supporting one or the other, well obviously you go with what most people are likely to have, however if it's a question of supporting both, or only supporting sterrio, I don't really see the issue in supporting both. ffourth, preempting tinkering with upgrading your games in future is good, look at the vista debate which has already happened. Obviously if your games will run on windows 8 as well, in five years or so when people are switching to that, it will save hastle. fifth, from what you say dsaudio sounds like a technically better system, --- -i certainly see the value of using compressed formats such as wma rather than having everything in wav. I'd hate to see a situation where you considdered limiting sounds in a game because of size of download, so, why not go for compression. I hope this random rambling is useful. As I said, this is just my thoughts based on your message, --- and I can't claime any tecnical expertees in the area of sound programming, but there were features you mentioned which seemed to make a difference to the user, hence my comments. Beware the grue! Dark. --- Gamers mailing list __ Gamers@audyssey.org If you want to leave the list, send E-mail to gamers-unsubscr...@audyssey.org. You can make changes or update your subscription via the web, at http://audyssey.org/mailman/listinfo/gamers_audyssey.org. All messages are archived and can be searched and read at http://www.mail-archive.com/gam...@audyssey.org. If you have any questions or concerns regarding the management of the list, please send E-mail to gamers-ow...@audyssey.org. --- Gamers mailing list __ Gamers@audyssey.org If you want to leave the list, send E-mail to gamers-unsubscr...@audyssey.org. You can make changes or update your subscription via the web, at http://audyssey.org/mailman/listinfo/gamers_audyssey.org. All messages are archived and can be searched and read at http://www.mail-archive.com/gam...@audyssey.org. If you have any questions or concerns regarding the management of the
Re: [Audyssey] DirectSound or XAudio
Hi Jacob, Considering DirectSound's age that's not surprising. It really doesn't have top of the line 5.1 or 7.1 support, because it was initially created in 95/96 for a totally different era of sound cards and audio technology. Although, DirectSound has been updated as much as possible it hasn't really been able to keep up with newer sound cards, make efficient use of newer processors, and employ more advanced audio techniques. XAudio2 on the other hand looks like it was written to resolve these inherent problems with DirectSound, and to provide a developer with a much more advanced audio API that can take full advantage of the higher end sound cards like the Audigy 4 Pro or the X-Fi. Unfortunately, I am pretty certain that most of the end users of my games will have the lower end sound cards such as a Soundmax or Real Tech that get put in just about every store brand computer out there so won't necessarily take full advantage of the improved audio environments i could provide. On 3/22/10, Jacob Kruger jac...@mailzone.co.za wrote: I don't know the newer one at all, but have been playing around with DirectSound myself a little bit FWIW, and it seems to thin it does have support for 3.1 and 5.1, 7.1 and surround speakers AFAIK, but not really relevant. Stay well Jacob Kruger Blind Biker Skype: BlindZA '...fate had broken his body, but not his spirit...' --- Gamers mailing list __ Gamers@audyssey.org If you want to leave the list, send E-mail to gamers-unsubscr...@audyssey.org. You can make changes or update your subscription via the web, at http://audyssey.org/mailman/listinfo/gamers_audyssey.org. All messages are archived and can be searched and read at http://www.mail-archive.com/gam...@audyssey.org. If you have any questions or concerns regarding the management of the list, please send E-mail to gamers-ow...@audyssey.org.
Re: [Audyssey] DirectSound or XAudio
My only problem with direct x updates is the file size, though they are needed for almost all the new audio games, so gamers would have to download them anyway. On 3/22/2010 11:30 PM, Thomas Ward wrote: Hi Shaun, Why exactly do you think getting DirectX updates is a pain? Why not simply go to the official DirectX web page http://www.microsoft.com/directx and download them. It is easy to find and download, and that is where I always get my DirectX updates from. In fact, in the future I'm probably going to just include a link to the DirectX main page instead of downloading and putting the files on my own web server. Cheers! On 3/22/10, shaun everissshau...@xtra.co.nz wrote: well not to mention that dotnet is part of the critical and optional windows updates so unless you don't update don't use autoupdate and don't visit the site often like I do, or just don't go online or something you prity much need to upgrade. No excuse not to. you will need directx which can be a pain to get unless you use sites like softwarepatch.com or google search it whenever I don't always get the latest but I do every few months. So yeah go for the later xna thingy. win xp has about I think either 3-4 years life left, for support and while you can buy it still prices are in favor of win7 xp actually costs loads more than win7 for those that must have old software but they really want you to get the newer stuff. I may even get that myself at some point once I manage to get the cash to upgrade my readers which I will. I may concider that. At 07:59 p.m. 22/03/2010, you wrote: Hi Tom. I'm not really up on too many of the technical differences, but reading your message sseveral thoughts did occur to me. First, why worry about people having to upgrade direct X? myself I'm quite willing to install several versions of net framework and direct X upgrades for games, and really they don't cause problems, and if someone is too lazy to download another file, well more fool them, and it isn't as if your asking them to install an entire environment such as python or java. Second, pre-xp windows really won't even support modern net brousing. My dad currently is using my old windows 98 laptop (which has a dead battery system, a not very functional fan, but may be used on mains power for short periods), and keeps phoning me to ask how to view standard web pages sinse a lot of display features just aren't supported in windows 98. I really therefore wouldn't be concerned about compatibility that! far backwards. While I myself will continue to use xp for now, when it gets to the stage that I can't brouse the internet with it, I'll upgrade. Third, If I understood you correctly on the 3D sound aspects, Dsaudio will support cards with 5.1 and 7.1 surround sound, where as direct sound won't, but both would sound the same on a bog standard sterrio sound card. Given that some people will! have such systems, or might considder upgrading to such systems in the future, I really don't see why they shouldn't get the bennifit of better equipment if they have it. If it was a question of supporting one or the other, well obviously you go with what most people are likely to have, however if it's a question of supporting both, or only supporting sterrio, I don't really see the issue in supporting both. ffourth, preempting tinkering with upgrading your games in future is good, look at the vista debate which has already happened. Obviously if your games will run on windows 8 as well, in five years or so when people are switching to that, it will save hastle. fifth, from what you say dsaudio sounds like a technically better system, --- -i certainly see the value of using compressed formats such as wma rather than having everything in wav. I'd hate to see a situation where you considdered limiting sounds in a game because of size of download, so, why not go for compression. I hope this random rambling is useful. As I said, this is just my thoughts based on your message, --- and I can't claime any tecnical expertees in the area of sound programming, but there were features you mentioned which seemed to make a difference to the user, hence my comments. Beware the grue! Dark. --- Gamers mailing list __ Gamers@audyssey.org If you want to leave the list, send E-mail to gamers-unsubscr...@audyssey.org. You can make changes or update your subscription via the web, at http://audyssey.org/mailman/listinfo/gamers_audyssey.org. All messages are archived and can be searched and read at http://www.mail-archive.com/gam...@audyssey.org. If you have any questions or concerns regarding the management of the list, please send E-mail to gamers-ow...@audyssey.org. --- Gamers mailing list __ Gamers@audyssey.org If you want to leave the list, send E-mail to gamers-unsubscr...@audyssey.org. You can make changes or update your subscription via the web, at http://audyssey.org/mailman/listinfo/gamers_audyssey.org. All
Re: [Audyssey] DirectSound or XAudio
Suppose, honestly, you do need to rather consider realistic target market as such anyway, but I don't know enough about it as such. FWIW, this machine which is my play around machine also has a realtek sound card built into it since it's an Acer laptop, and my way more modern/upmarket dell work machine has the intel sound built into it since it's also a laptop, but anyway... Stay well Stay well Jacob Kruger Blind Biker Skype: BlindZA '...fate had broken his body, but not his spirit...' - Original Message - From: Thomas Ward thomasward1...@gmail.com To: Gamers Discussion list gamers@audyssey.org Sent: Monday, March 22, 2010 11:48 PM Subject: Re: [Audyssey] DirectSound or XAudio Hi Jacob, Considering DirectSound's age that's not surprising. It really doesn't have top of the line 5.1 or 7.1 support, because it was initially created in 95/96 for a totally different era of sound cards and audio technology. Although, DirectSound has been updated as much as possible it hasn't really been able to keep up with newer sound cards, make efficient use of newer processors, and employ more advanced audio techniques. XAudio2 on the other hand looks like it was written to resolve these inherent problems with DirectSound, and to provide a developer with a much more advanced audio API that can take full advantage of the higher end sound cards like the Audigy 4 Pro or the X-Fi. Unfortunately, I am pretty certain that most of the end users of my games will have the lower end sound cards such as a Soundmax or Real Tech that get put in just about every store brand computer out there so won't necessarily take full advantage of the improved audio environments i could provide. On 3/22/10, Jacob Kruger jac...@mailzone.co.za wrote: I don't know the newer one at all, but have been playing around with DirectSound myself a little bit FWIW, and it seems to thin it does have support for 3.1 and 5.1, 7.1 and surround speakers AFAIK, but not really relevant. Stay well Jacob Kruger Blind Biker Skype: BlindZA '...fate had broken his body, but not his spirit...' --- Gamers mailing list __ Gamers@audyssey.org If you want to leave the list, send E-mail to gamers-unsubscr...@audyssey.org. You can make changes or update your subscription via the web, at http://audyssey.org/mailman/listinfo/gamers_audyssey.org. All messages are archived and can be searched and read at http://www.mail-archive.com/gam...@audyssey.org. If you have any questions or concerns regarding the management of the list, please send E-mail to gamers-ow...@audyssey.org. __ Information from ESET NOD32 Antivirus, version of virus signature database 4966 (20100322) __ The message was checked by ESET NOD32 Antivirus. http://www.eset.com __ Information from ESET NOD32 Antivirus, version of virus signature database 4966 (20100322) __ The message was checked by ESET NOD32 Antivirus. http://www.eset.com --- Gamers mailing list __ Gamers@audyssey.org If you want to leave the list, send E-mail to gamers-unsubscr...@audyssey.org. You can make changes or update your subscription via the web, at http://audyssey.org/mailman/listinfo/gamers_audyssey.org. All messages are archived and can be searched and read at http://www.mail-archive.com/gam...@audyssey.org. If you have any questions or concerns regarding the management of the list, please send E-mail to gamers-ow...@audyssey.org.
Re: [Audyssey] DirectSound or XAudio
Hi Dark, It is not so much I'm particularly worried about people upgrading their version of DirectX as much as convenience for the end user here. During my previous game releases of Final Conflict, Montezuma's Revenge, and Mysteries of the Ancients the number one technical support issue and complaint was that the game installs were too complicated and confusing. Often they made mistakes like installing a DirectX upgrade before installing .NET which resulted in some missing libraries and broken compatibility issues. Another common complaint was the size of the files they needed to download to get my games to run. They had to download a huge .NET Framework upgrade, a huge DirectX upgrade,install them, and then download/install my games. A lot of people wanted me to just make it so they could download and install it without the hastle of downloading and installing this or that extra upgrade too. So one of the primary purposes of switching to C++ was to not only simplify the install, but to take all the guess work and confusion out of the install by using common Windows components that should be already present on the end user's machine. Now obviously if I go with XAudio2 Windows 7 already has this library installed, and upgrading is more or less optional if you want updates and bug fixes. On Windows XP you'll likely have to run a DirectX update to get XAudio2 as it isn't a core part of the Windows XP operating system by default. Though running the DirectX update tool can fix that easy enough.So like i said part of my concern here is simple convenience as well as technical concerns. DirectSound 8 comes with XP, Vista, and Windows 7 so installing extra components or upgrades are not necessary. With XAudio2 you may very well have to run a DirectX upgrade if your directX isn't very current.Plus XAudio2 is under active development so a version released a year ago isn't necessarily going to be as stable or bug free as the current release. So it is probably a good idea that the customer installs the latest DirectX upgrades anyway to make sure any patches or bug fixes are applied. I was sort of hoping to save some end users that extra step. Although, convenience aside XAudio2 does look like a superior audio API. As has already been mentioned on list numerous times it is fairly new, but has a lot going for it. It was designed for a modern PC and Windows operating system and can take advantage of the higher end sound cards, processors, and has a much more advanced software mixer that allows a developer to do things not possible with DirectSound. Here is a case in point. As i understand it with XAudio2 you are able to mix sounds, sound sources, in such a way that you can create truly unique and incredably realistic sound effects on the fly. Let's take a game like Final Conflict as our example here. When you destroy a starship with DirectSound you can either play a single static explosion effect, randomly select from a list of explosion sounds, or load multiple sounds into sound buffers and play them together. With XAudio2, as i understand it, you can remix those sounds in a way to dinamically create your own unique explosion from multiple sound sources. You can randomize it so no two explosions sound exactly the same. Plus you can apply custom DSP effects further adding a bit of realism or unique flavor to the audio output. I'm not too clear on all the specifics on how this is done, but it does certainly seam like a superior audio API for sure. XAudio2 is to us what Direct 3D graphics is to the mainstream video game market. However, given the fact it is a very new and practically an untested API from my end I'd like to have some end user experiences with it before proceeding with supporting something I know little to nothing about personally. Cheers! --- Gamers mailing list __ Gamers@audyssey.org If you want to leave the list, send E-mail to gamers-unsubscr...@audyssey.org. You can make changes or update your subscription via the web, at http://audyssey.org/mailman/listinfo/gamers_audyssey.org. All messages are archived and can be searched and read at http://www.mail-archive.com/gam...@audyssey.org. If you have any questions or concerns regarding the management of the list, please send E-mail to gamers-ow...@audyssey.org.
Re: [Audyssey] DirectSound or XAudio
Hi Philip, That has been my thought as well. While a part of me would like nothing more than to get started using XAudio2, as it seams like it has some rather nice features, stability is foremost on my mind. DirectSound was started around 1996 and was actively maintained and updated until 2006 giving it a long development and test cycle which means it is now very stable and rock solid. Perhaps it can't compare with XAudio2 in the special features department, but is certainly more stable over all. With XAudio2 it has only been on the scene since 2008, and for a while the DirectX documentation mentioned various bug fixes and updates to XAudio2. It is very much a new technology, and I haven't given it a test drive in any commercial product. So I have no clear idea how it performs compared to DirectSound in the real world.I'm reluctant to adopt a virtually unknown technology this close to a game release without some expert and educated opinions about which API is better for the job currently. Cheers! --- Gamers mailing list __ Gamers@audyssey.org If you want to leave the list, send E-mail to gamers-unsubscr...@audyssey.org. You can make changes or update your subscription via the web, at http://audyssey.org/mailman/listinfo/gamers_audyssey.org. All messages are archived and can be searched and read at http://www.mail-archive.com/gam...@audyssey.org. If you have any questions or concerns regarding the management of the list, please send E-mail to gamers-ow...@audyssey.org.
Re: [Audyssey] DirectSound or XAudio
Well Tom, I'm a litle surprised people can't follow a basic set of clear instructions, especially when it just comes down to running install wizards, and even more especially when it comes down to things which are needed for several games not just yours. I remember when I first started playing audio games and the user accounts issue was preventing me from installing net. There were several games i COULDN'T PLAY, INCLUDINg treasurehunt and the version of final conflict you had at that stage, pluss some other game related applications which wouldn't work, thus when the net issue was fixed, it freed me to do a number of things, not just play one persons' games, ditto with direct X and probably even more so sinse it's a basic windows component required by other programs (I'm looking at upgrading my rather old version of power dvd at the moment so that I can use full dolby 3D sound, and that will certainly take a direct X upgrade). Thus, my reply to people not willing to install extra components, especially very standard ones like direct X would be hard cheese! though of course sinse your also looking at selling games that requires taking into account public feeling, even when that feeling isn't particularly logical. Then again though, the case you just described of creating unique sounds at random on the fly just reinforces my opinion (uninformed by technical knolidge as it may be), that dsaudio2 sounds like a good idea. The amount of times I've wanted different audio tocans to distinguish the same event and add variety to the sound scape of a game have been many, and the idea of having final conflict with a range of different explosion sounds which could be created without having to have a hole bunch more recorded sound files (which, as has often been said aren't easy to come by), strikes me as in fact a really fantastic thought, and well worth the inconvenience of downloading an extra upgrade which probably will be needed for a number of other things anyway. This is of course though, very much my opinion, and it's not particularly supported by either extensive technical knowhow, or indeed too much concern for public opinion, which are obviously things that must also be considdered. Beware the grue! Dark. --- Gamers mailing list __ Gamers@audyssey.org If you want to leave the list, send E-mail to gamers-unsubscr...@audyssey.org. You can make changes or update your subscription via the web, at http://audyssey.org/mailman/listinfo/gamers_audyssey.org. All messages are archived and can be searched and read at http://www.mail-archive.com/gam...@audyssey.org. If you have any questions or concerns regarding the management of the list, please send E-mail to gamers-ow...@audyssey.org.
Re: [Audyssey] DirectSound or XAudio
Hi Thomas, About compressed file types...I know that Direct Show supports MP3s. Does it only support Mpeg Layer 3 compression? Best Regards, Hayden -Original Message- From: gamers-boun...@audyssey.org [mailto:gamers-boun...@audyssey.org] On Behalf Of Thomas Ward Sent: Monday, March 22, 2010 1:02 AM To: Gamers Discussion list Subject: [Audyssey] DirectSound or XAudio Hi all, As most of you know I've spent the last three or four months converting my engine code from C# .NET to C++. At last after three/four months of hard work the engine is almost ready to begin using for building Mysteries of the Ancients beta 11. The one area of the engine I haven't quite completed though is the sound core. Initially I was using FMOD Ex 4.28, which is fine, but as you may know that requires a special license to use in commercial products. When incorperated into a game engine the license costs a lot more. I really don't have the money right now to pay for the license so I've been thinking about using DirectSound 8 or XAudio2.What I'm looking for is some educated advice which I should use for my engine. On one hand I know DirectSound 8 is old, is now technically moved to the legacy branch of DirectX, but it also is quite stable and very backwards compatible with older Windows releases. Plus Windows XP, Vista, and Windows 7 all come with it installed so no need to upgrade DirectX to use it. Thus if I go with DirectSound 8 I don't have to install anything extra, or ask anyone to upgrade DirectX. All of these things are compelling reasons for choosing DirectSound 8. On the other hand XAudio2 looks very promising. For one thing it is a lot newer, is designed for Windows releases beyond Windows 7, and is currently being supported by Microsoft. This means going with it now will save me some trouble upgrading my games when the time comes that DirectSound is officially removed from DirectX altogether, but nobody knows when that will be.Too many games and other multimedia products depend on DirectSound to just up and drop it as Microsoft well knows. They probably won't drop it completely until XAudio2 has fully replaced DirectSound for newer games and other multimedia products. So the fact that XAudio2 is current doesn't necessarily mean DirectSound is a bad option. It just means my games will be more up to date so to speak. However, as i said before there are some features that make it promising. For one thing I see according to the docs you can play and stream some compressed file types like wma and xwma. This is obviously a great feature as some music and ambience tracks can be quite big. Having support for some compressed file types makes it a good choice in that regard. Besides that XAudio2 has some improvements in DSP support and can be used to mix sounds for 5.1 and 7.1 sound cards which is very good since the fact we depend on an entire audio environment to begin with. The more realistic sounding the mixer is the more realistic the game's audio environment will be. However, even though a game may support such a high tech sound environment most of my customers are likely to be stuck with some budget sound card like a Soundmax AC-97 that shipped with their computer. So I'm not really certain that putting extra work into specifically supporting 5.1 or 7.1 mixing will do them a whole heck of a lot of good without the higher end hardware. If this is the case then Xaudio2 3d mixing won't be much better than DirectSound's 3d mixing if they don't have the equipment to take advantage of the better 3d mixing. Any thoughts here? Has anyone actually sat down and compared these two APIs and have a better list of pros and cons? More to the point which do you think I should pick? I can basically use either one right now, and I should be able to update the engine in a day or so once I figure out which to use for the project. Thanks. --- Gamers mailing list __ Gamers@audyssey.org If you want to leave the list, send E-mail to gamers-unsubscr...@audyssey.org. You can make changes or update your subscription via the web, at http://audyssey.org/mailman/listinfo/gamers_audyssey.org. All messages are archived and can be searched and read at http://www.mail-archive.com/gam...@audyssey.org. If you have any questions or concerns regarding the management of the list, please send E-mail to gamers-ow...@audyssey.org. --- Gamers mailing list __ Gamers@audyssey.org If you want to leave the list, send E-mail to gamers-unsubscr...@audyssey.org. You can make changes or update your subscription via the web, at http://audyssey.org/mailman/listinfo/gamers_audyssey.org. All messages are archived and can be searched and read at http://www.mail-archive.com/gam...@audyssey.org. If you have any questions or concerns regarding the management of the list, please send E-mail to gamers-ow...@audyssey.org.
