Re: Differences between Structs and Turbine ???

On 8 Oct 2002, Andrew C. Oliver wrote: | This is a sucky thing about java. You get a JVM always whether you want | one or not.. to do it in java he needs a mod_java with GCJ. (That | actually sounds kinda cool) An old message, but hey.. Have you checked out JSR 121 - "Application Isolation API

Re: Differences between Structs and Turbine ???

It'd be a piece of cake to add a velocity tag to Jelly -- dIon Gillard, Multitask Consulting Work: http://www.multitask.com.au Developers: http://adslgateway.multitask.com.au/developers [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote on 11/10/2002 05:22:30 AM: > [EMAIL PROTECTED] writes: > > > [EMAIL PROTECTE

Re: Differences between Structs and Turbine ???

Nick Chalko wrote: > >>-Original Message- >>From: Rich Persaud [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]] >>Sent: Tuesday, October 08, 2002 8:26 PM >>To: Jakarta General List >>Subject: re[2]: Differences between Structs and Turbine ??? >> >>Preferred pain

Re: Differences between Structs and Turbine ???

Daniel Rall wrote: > Berin Loritsch <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> writes: > > >>Pier Fumagalli wrote: >> >>>On 8/10/02 1:30 am, "Jon Scott Stevens" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote: >>> >> on 2002/10/7 5:21 PM, "Pier Fumagalli" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote: >JSPs are the "root of all evil" be

Re: Differences between Structs and Turbine ???

o your brain, it's hard to ever > > get anything practical done again. To a database person, every nail > > looks like a thumb. Or something like that. > > === > > > > tom > > > > > > -----Original Message----- > > From: Steve Downey [

Re: Differences between Structs and Turbine ???

7;s hard to ever > get anything practical done again. To a database person, every nail > looks like a thumb. Or something like that. > === > > tom > > > -Original Message- > From: Steve Downey [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]] > Sent: Wednesday, October 09, 2002 8

RE: Differences between Structs and Turbine ???

tabase person, every nail looks like a thumb. Or something like that. === tom -Original Message- From: Steve Downey [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]] Sent: Wednesday, October 09, 2002 8:52 PM To: Jakarta General List Subject: Re: Differences between Structs and Turbine ??? On Wedne

Re: Differences between Structs and Turbine ???

On Wednesday 09 October 2002 07:18 pm, Pier Fumagalli wrote: > On 9/10/02 3:47, "Berin Loritsch" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote: > > Even when Quick and Dirty takes longer. I tried to convince my boss that > > a certain "customization" required so many fundamental changes that it > > would be quicker

Re: Differences between Structs and Turbine ???

[EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote on 10/10/2002 03:40:35 AM: > Jon Scott Stevens <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> writes: > > > Java is not the fastest technology to develop in, however, it produces the > > best code for the long term. > > > > PHP is the fastest technology to develop in, however, it produces the > >

Re: Differences between Structs and Turbine ???

On 8/10/02 23:59, "Jon Scott Stevens" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote: > Java is not the fastest technology to develop in, however, it produces the > best code for the long term. > > PHP is the fastest technology to develop in, however, it produces the > crappiest code for the long term. The problem

Re: Differences between Structs and Turbine ???

On 9/10/02 3:47, "Berin Loritsch" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote: > Even when Quick and Dirty takes longer. I tried to convince my boss that > a certain "customization" required so many fundamental changes that it would > be quicker and easier to develop/maintain if we did it right. He told me > tha

Re: Differences between Structs and Turbine ???

On Wed, 2002-10-09 at 14:05, Jon Scott Stevens wrote: > on 2002/10/9 10:40 AM, "Daniel Rall" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote: > > > mod_python is looking more and more attractive to me all the time, a > > clever balance between the two. > > Not really. This is about as good as plain servlets. > > htt

Re: Differences between Structs and Turbine ???

on 2002/10/9 10:40 AM, "Daniel Rall" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote: > mod_python is looking more and more attractive to me all the time, a > clever balance between the two. Not really. This is about as good as plain servlets. http://www.modpython.org/live/mod_python-2.7.8/doc-html/tut-pub.html Not

RE: re[2]: Differences between Structs and Turbine ???

> -Original Message- > From: Rich Persaud [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]] > Sent: Tuesday, October 08, 2002 8:26 PM > To: Jakarta General List > Subject: re[2]: Differences between Structs and Turbine ??? > > Preferred pain is a known pain with an experience-based cap.

Re: re[2]: Differences between Structs and Turbine ???

08, 2002 8:26 PM > Subject: re[2]: Differences between Structs and Turbine ??? > > > > New and improved pain may promise an average POI (Pain-on-Investment) that > > is 50% of the familiar pain, but will be assigned a risk profile with > > unknown maximum pain. > >

Re: re[2]: Differences between Structs and Turbine ???

- Original Message - From: "Rich Persaud" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> To: "Jakarta General List" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> Sent: Tuesday, October 08, 2002 8:26 PM Subject: re[2]: Differences between Structs and Turbine ??? > New and improved pain may promise an av

re[2]: Differences between Structs and Turbine ???

Berin wrote: | Even when Quick and Dirty takes longer. I tried to convince my boss that | a certain "customization" required so many fundamental changes that it would | be quicker and easier to develop/maintain if we did it right. He told me | that he would never be able to convince the C

Re: Differences between Structs and Turbine ???

On Tue, Oct 08, 2002 at 03:03:37PM -0700, Jon Scott Stevens wrote: > > Interestingly enough, I did write a quick little framework that works very > similar to Turbine and has the same concept of users/roles/permissions. =) Well, if you want an MVC framework, someone did a port of Maverick to PHP

Re: Differences between Structs and Turbine ???

on 2002/10/8 3:39 PM, "Ceki Gülcü" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote: > It is surprising that a Java expert with monumental contributions to > this community would not use Java technology to create his website. Is > this a case of "do as I say, not as I do"? > > Of course one is free to try new approach

Re: Differences between Structs and Turbine ???

Pier Fumagalli wrote: > On 8/10/02 1:30 am, "Jon Scott Stevens" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote: > > >>on 2002/10/7 5:21 PM, "Pier Fumagalli" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote: >> >> >>>JSPs are the "root of all evil" because HTMLers think to have the power (and >>>obligation, after a while) to blatantly dest

Re: Differences between Structs and Turbine ???

Ever read/see Village of the Dammed? ;-) -Andy On Tue, 2002-10-08 at 19:49, Daniel Rall wrote: > Jon Scott Stevens <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> writes: > > > Actually, it looks like CollabNet's SourceCast. Scarab looks like SourceCast > > and Maven looks like Scarab. =) > > And you can all look like ea

Re: Differences between Structs and Turbine ???

I disagree with such Java Jingoism. Jon's reasoning sounded pretty good to me. . Launching several JVMs sucks. And doing all in one is a recipe for disaster... (crash bang boom) This is a sucky thing about java. You get a JVM always whether you want one or not.. to do it in java he needs a mo

Re: Differences between Structs and Turbine ???

At 12:07 08.10.2002 -0700, Jon Scott Stevens wrote: >I recently spent a couple weekend nights and built the StudioZ.tv website in >PHP4 on OSX. It is a pretty cool webapp that has really transformed things >for us and made my life MUCH easier (the office staff can fully manage the >events that sh

Re: Differences between Structs and Turbine ???

Bingo! At 10:55 AM 10/8/2002 -0400, you wrote: >Its too bad that the clans don't play nice together... I'm convinced >together... They could come up with something MUCH MUCH better than this >mess. (provided some GUI wonks could be found) ;-) > >(and there is my theme) ;-) > >-Andy > > >On Tue,

Re: Differences between Structs and Turbine ???

on 2002/10/8 2:32 PM, "Leo Simons" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote: >> I recently spent a couple weekend nights and built the >> StudioZ.tv website in PHP4 on OSX. > > Hey, that looks like maven! :P Actually, it looks like CollabNet's SourceCast. Scarab looks like SourceCast and Maven looks like Scar

Re: Differences between Structs and Turbine ???

On Wed, 9 Oct 2002 00:14, Andrew C. Oliver wrote: > Possibly Avalon does this (to some degree) but it > only covers a subset of what you need and furthermore it goes out of its > way to define far to many "is a" relationships just to avoid having > "default" implementations (public void init() {/*

RE: Differences between Structs and Turbine ???

> I recently spent a couple weekend nights and built the > StudioZ.tv website in PHP4 on OSX. Hey, that looks like maven! :P > It is a pretty cool webapp > that has really transformed things for us and made my life > MUCH easier (the office staff can fully manage the events > that show up on

Re: Differences between Structs and Turbine ???

on 2002/10/8 8:41 AM, "Geir Magnusson Jr" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote: > That's why Velocity is as fast as JSP. > > geir ...if not faster... -jon -- StudioZ.tv /\ Bar/Nightclub/Entertainment 314 11th Street @ Folsom /\ San Francisco http://studioz.tv/ -- To unsubscribe, e-mail:

Re: Differences between Structs and Turbine ???

on 2002/10/8 2:42 AM, "Leo Simons" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote: > "PHP 5 and MySQL 4 will make java, .Net, and all similar technologies > obsolete." > > Said one manager to another manager on a golf court, after having > spent the weekend with his 12 year old son who built the school > website. >

Re: Differences between Structs and Turbine ???

on 2002/10/8 1:14 AM, "Martin Cooper" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote: > I find it even more amusing to see you try to defend I never defend. I only offend by exposing the truth. =) -jon -- StudioZ.tv /\ Bar/Nightclub/Entertainment 314 11th Street @ Folsom /\ San Francisco http://studioz.tv

Re: Differences between Structs and Turbine ???

Geir Magnusson Jr wrote: >>I was trying to stay out, but this *always* comes up in these discussions, >>and I think it's somewhat disingenuous. First, you have a similar thing in >>JSTL, and one added and desginers who work with JavaScript on the client >>side get method calls. >> >>It's not dif

Re: Differences between Structs and Turbine ???

On 10/8/02 12:13 PM, "Geir Magnusson Jr" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote: > On 10/7/02 9:56 PM, "Martin Cooper" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote: > >>> From: Jon Scott Stevens [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]] >>> >>> on 2002/10/7 5:41 PM, "Martin Cooper" >>> <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote: >>> Of course, I know

Re: Differences between Structs and Turbine ???

On 10/7/02 9:56 PM, "Martin Cooper" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote: >> From: Jon Scott Stevens [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]] >> >> on 2002/10/7 5:41 PM, "Martin Cooper" >> <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote: >> >>> Of course, I know Velocity fans won't like this any better, >> but if you bring >>> the JSP examp

Re: Differences between Structs and Turbine ???

On 10/8/02 10:42 AM, "Pier Fumagalli" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote: > "Andrew C. Oliver" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote: > >> So putting out crap code that you have to toggle and mess with over and >> over again is where the money is at in web app development. So what is >> the solution? There isn't o

Re: Differences between Structs and Turbine ???

Its too bad that the clans don't play nice together... I'm convinced together... They could come up with something MUCH MUCH better than this mess. (provided some GUI wonks could be found) ;-) (and there is my theme) ;-) -Andy On Tue, 2002-10-08 at 10:42, Pier Fumagalli wrote: > "Andrew C. Ol

Re: Differences between Structs and Turbine ???

"Andrew C. Oliver" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote: > So putting out crap code that you have to toggle and mess with over and > over again is where the money is at in web app development. So what is > the solution? There isn't one...web app development is still a big > hairy mess. Choice is good. ;-

Re: Differences between Structs and Turbine ???

I both agree and disagree with you. The trouble is that XSLT syntax is horrific and some of the specs (for a specific example the XInclude spec) are bent on violating SoC more than embedding if statements ever could (having to declare a base url is a greater evil). There is a "production concern

Re: Differences between Structs and Turbine ???

(fun tread: tea, tapestry, no one said the other one http://www.salmonllc.com/website/Jsp/vanity/Jade.jsp ) This presentation/vie layer stuff is a popular topic. Rumor is that JSR 127 (JS Faces) could allow for emitting of http://www.w3.org/TR/xforms/ and do all rendering on browser via JavaS

Re: Differences between Structs and Turbine ???

Pier Fumagalli wrote: >I believe that Andy doesn't quite know what "templates" are ! :-) Dude, >we're not talking about the beauty of XML around here, but stuff that >Macromedia DreamWeaver can parse and (somehow) render! :-) > In my shop we've gone our own way, with our own templating sytem tar

RE: Differences between Structs and Turbine ???

"PHP 5 and MySQL 4 will make java, .Net, and all similar technologies obsolete." Said one manager to another manager on a golf court, after having spent the weekend with his 12 year old son who built the school website. It took me a week ton convince the "another manager" that it might not be a

RE: Differences between Structs and Turbine ???

> -Original Message- > From: Jon Scott Stevens [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]] > Sent: Monday, October 07, 2002 7:10 PM > To: [EMAIL PROTECTED] > Subject: Re: Differences between Structs and Turbine ??? > > The above could just as easily be written as: > >

Re: Differences between Structs and Turbine ???

On 8/10/02 3:09 am, "Jon Scott Stevens" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote: > What does "c" stand for? Oh wait...explain that to your designers. Also, I > believe you forgot a bunch of other junk that you have to put at the top of > the file or in configuration files to configure what "c" means anyway. >

Re: Differences between Structs and Turbine ???

On 8/10/02 1:30 am, "Jon Scott Stevens" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote: > on 2002/10/7 5:21 PM, "Pier Fumagalli" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote: > >> JSPs are the "root of all evil" because HTMLers think to have the power (and >> obligation, after a while) to blatantly destroy your entire container in >>

Re: Differences between Structs and Turbine ???

I think we can all agree that there are varying issues here. For some environments, especially those that allow "htmlers" (which we all are) to dink with backend code, jsp probably is not the best solution. For other environments, it is a boon. At 01:21 AM 10/8/2002 +0100, you wrote: >On 8/1

Re: Differences between Structs and Turbine ???

on 2002/10/7 6:56 PM, "Martin Cooper" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote: > You mean this, taken from the page, don't you? > > > Hello > > > #if ($request.getParameter("name") == null) > Hello World > #else > Hello, $request.getParameter("name") > #end > > > > At least if you're using JSP/JSTL, y

RE: Differences between Structs and Turbine ???

> -Original Message- > From: Jon Scott Stevens [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]] > Sent: Monday, October 07, 2002 6:04 PM > To: [EMAIL PROTECTED] > Subject: Re: Differences between Structs and Turbine ??? > > > on 2002/10/7 5:41 PM, "Martin Cooper" >

Re: Differences between Structs and Turbine ???

on 2002/10/7 5:41 PM, "Martin Cooper" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote: > Of course, I know Velocity fans won't like this any better, but if you bring > the JSP example on that page up to date, using JSTL, you'll have this: > > > > Hello World > > > Hello, > > I dunno about you, but I would

Re: Differences between Structs and Turbine ???

Scott Eade <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote on 08/10/2002 10:12:33 AM: > > From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] > > > > #if (..) > > #end > > > > in Velocity...? > > > >> "Andrew C. Oliver" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote on 08/10/2002 09:50:15 AM: > >> > >> <% > >> if (you.have(this).in.your(html)) { > >>out.pr

RE: Differences between Structs and Turbine ???

> -Original Message- > From: Jon Scott Stevens [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]] > Sent: Monday, October 07, 2002 5:28 PM > To: [EMAIL PROTECTED] > Subject: Re: Differences between Structs and Turbine ??? > > > Actually, yes. > > Here is the

Re: Differences between Structs and Turbine ???

on 2002/10/7 5:21 PM, "Pier Fumagalli" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote: > JSPs are the "root of all evil" because HTMLers think to have the power (and > obligation, after a while) to blatantly destroy your entire container in > less than 2 minutes of uptime... To that respect, even ASP are better... >

Re: Differences between Structs and Turbine ???

on 2002/10/7 4:45 PM, "Pier Fumagalli" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote: > It is, actually, but more than Mickey Mouse, it's the "Speedy Gonzales" > version of JSP, given that per equivalent template (and rewriting tag > libraries in Tea Applications), we kinda get a 3x performance boost! :-) > > Plus

Re: Differences between Structs and Turbine ???

On 8/10/02 1:12, "Scott Eade" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote: > But the Velocity is much easier to teach to a web designer (non-programmer) > than the JSP. > http://jakarta.apache.org/velocity/ymtd/ymtd.html More than easier to teach, is that it _forbids_ them to do what they're not supposed to do...

Re: Differences between Structs and Turbine ???

Actually, yes. Here is the specific reason(s): http://jakarta.apache.org/velocity/ymtd/ymtd-saying-hello.html Most specifically, if you want to make the word "doesn't" in the example below bold...now, you have embedded HTML into your println...and we know it isn't MVC to embed HTML into Java c

Re: Differences between Structs and Turbine ???

On 8/10/02 1:13, "[EMAIL PROTECTED]" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote: > And to resurface the old issue, this is so much worse than > > #if (..) > #end > > in Velocity...? I believe that Andy doesn't quite know what "templates" are ! :-) Dude, we're not talking about the beauty of XML around here, bu

Re: Differences between Structs and Turbine ???

> From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] > > #if (..) > #end > > in Velocity...? > >> "Andrew C. Oliver" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote on 08/10/2002 09:50:15 AM: >> >> <% >> if (you.have(this).in.your(html)) { >>out.println("Andy doesn't think its good"); >> } >> %> But the Velocity is much easier to teac

Re: Differences between Structs and Turbine ???

Nope. That sucks too. Not that my opinion should matter. On Mon, 2002-10-07 at 20:13, [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: > And to resurface the old issue, this is so much worse than > > #if (..) > #end > > in Velocity...? > -- > dIon Gillard, Multitask Consulting > Work: http://www.multitask.com.a

Re: Differences between Structs and Turbine ???

And to resurface the old issue, this is so much worse than #if (..) #end in Velocity...? -- dIon Gillard, Multitask Consulting Work: http://www.multitask.com.au Developers: http://adslgateway.multitask.com.au/developers "Andrew C. Oliver" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote on 08/10/2002 09:50:15 A

Re: Differences between Structs and Turbine ???

Right...my problem with JSP isn't its dogged speed its the conceptual nastiness of it. <% if (you.have(this).in.your(html)) { out.println("Andy doesn't think its good"); } %> -Andy On Mon, 2002-10-07 at 19:45, Pier Fumagalli wrote: > On 8/10/02 0:18, "Andrew C. Oliver" <[EMAIL P

Re: Differences between Structs and Turbine ???

On 8/10/02 0:18, "Andrew C. Oliver" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote: > Looks like kind of a mickey mouse version of JSP to me... ;-) (I just > couldn't resist...I just couldn't!) It is, actually, but more than Mickey Mouse, it's the "Speedy Gonzales" version of JSP, given that per equivalent template

Re: Differences between Structs and Turbine ???

Looks like kind of a mickey mouse version of JSP to me... ;-) (I just couldn't resist...I just couldn't!) On Mon, 2002-10-07 at 18:08, Pier Fumagalli wrote: > On 7/10/02 22:01, "Andrew C. Oliver" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote: > > > While I think there are places that struts could learn a lot from

Re: Differences between Structs and Turbine ???

On 7/10/02 22:01, "Andrew C. Oliver" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote: > While I think there are places that struts could learn a lot from > turbine... Struts has a bit more "design cohesion" shall we say? Where > turbine is a bit moreorganic in places. > > The nice thing about Turbine is that it

Re: Differences between Structs and Turbine ???

While I think there are places that struts could learn a lot from turbine... Struts has a bit more "design cohesion" shall we say? Where turbine is a bit moreorganic in places. The nice thing about Turbine is that it does favor containment over inheritance, same thing with Struts (not nec

Re: Differences between Structs and Turbine ???

On Sat, 2002-10-05 at 19:36, John McNally wrote: > This is not really the correct place, but a short answer is struts is > jsp-centric while turbine attempts to be neutral on the actual > templating mechanism. Given that most jsp developers gravitate to > struts means you get the best support if

Re: Differences between Structs and Turbine ???

This is not really the correct place, but a short answer is struts is jsp-centric while turbine attempts to be neutral on the actual templating mechanism. Given that most jsp developers gravitate to struts means you get the best support if using velocity within turbine. Struts most certainly has

Differences between Structs and Turbine ???

I hope I'm asking the right mailing list ... I'd like to know the differences between Struts and Turbine project. I'm currently using Turbine framework to build a web application and I see that Struts could offer me the same kind of solution, am I right ? I would also like to know which project i