Re: [gentoo-dev] GLEP ??: Critical News Reporting
On Tue, Nov 01, 2005 at 01:51:25AM +, Ciaran McCreesh wrote: There is currently no explanation as to why this GLEP should be chosen over ChrisWhite's 42. I will add such a section if anyone requests it. Any reason why you chose bashing Chris' GLEP in another mail and start your own instead of working together and bringing your input for 42? Lightweight It is not reasonable to expect all users to have an MTA, web browser, email client, cron daemon or text processing suite available on their system. In particular, this means that any markup to be parsed must be in a very simple format. I think i have an idea where this is going... Don't you already have some GLEP saying XML sucks? I miss references to the old log ewarn issue, which really should be solved as well while we're at it. There are some good ideas in your GLEP, so are some in Chris'. No good is coming from having two similar GLEPs around at the same time. So please don't waste our time [1] by having two more or less redundant GLEPs discussed. cheers, Wernfried [1] http://dev.gentoo.org/~chriswhite/flame.html Code listing 1.6 -- Wernfried Haas (amne) - amne at gentoo dot org Gentoo Forums: http://forums.gentoo.org IRC: #gentoo-forums on freenode - email: forum-mods at gentoo dot org -- gentoo-dev@gentoo.org mailing list
[gentoo-dev] Re: GLEP ??: Critical News Reporting
Ciaran McCreesh posted [EMAIL PROTECTED], excerpted below, on Tue, 01 Nov 2005 01:51:25 +: ``Version:`` Initially 1. Incremented every time a non-trivial change is made. Changes which require a re-read of the news item should instead use a new news item file. Very good work! This Version field calls to mind the MIMEVersion spec, and the ebuild version proposal, only here it's apparently used for news-item version. I'd suggest we preemptively incorporate an ENewsVersion or similar field as well, to be 1.0, with this proposal, but should the format ever need changed, that would allow for a format version 1.1 or 2.0 or whatever. As the GLEP suggests that future GLEPs may add new headers, this would allow them to update this version field as necessary, presumably using the familiar minor version = backward compatible, major version if not backward compatible, versioning scheme. You are very good at laying everything out in a just so spec, so I'll leave it to you to provide specific wording. =8^) One other niggle. The encoding is specified as UTF-8, but then the format is specified as RFC-822 (7-bit ASCII, pre-i18n) compatible. I'm not up on i18n specs, but presumably there's a newer RFC that specifies how internationalized internet messages are handled in an RFC-822 backward compatible way? If so, it may make more sense to reference that specific RFC, which presumably deals with UTF-8 instead of specifying 7-bit ASCII as does 822. Alternatively, MIME/Quoted-printable could be specified, which would allow for escaped 8-bit chars, as I'd /assume/ UTF-8 requires, given the -8. (I /said/ I'm not up on that!) -- Duncan - List replies preferred. No HTML msgs. Every nonfree program has a lord, a master -- and if you use the program, he is your master. Richard Stallman in http://www.linuxdevcenter.com/pub/a/linux/2004/12/22/rms_interview.html -- gentoo-dev@gentoo.org mailing list
Re: [gentoo-dev] GLEP ??: Critical News Reporting
On Tuesday 01 November 2005 02:00, Thierry Carrez wrote: Ciaran McCreesh wrote: Notification that new relevant news items will be displayed via the ``emerge`` tool in a similar way to the existing configuration files need updating messages: * Important: 3 config files in /etc need updating. * Type emerge --help config to learn how to update config files. * Important: there are 5 unread news items. * Type emerge --help news to learn how to read news files. Aren't those messages displayed after the damage is done ? Typical use : - emerge --sync run as a daily cron job - emerge -a mysql - great, a new version is there. Typing Yes - system gets borken - emerge spits out message saying 14 files need updating and there is 1 unread news item I'm probably missing something here. Please elaborate on how this GLEP meets the Preemptive design goal... The configuration files need updating messages also appear at the end of emerge sync Also, perhaps the news messages could be put at both ends of the emerge output? pgpIbDvAVqFTj.pgp Description: PGP signature
Re[2]: [gentoo-dev] GLEP ??: Critical News Reporting
1.11.2005, 11:00:22, Thierry Carrez wrote: Aren't those messages displayed after the damage is done ? Typical use : - emerge --sync run as a daily cron job - emerge -a mysql - great, a new version is there. Typing Yes - system gets borken - emerge spits out message saying 14 files need updating and there is 1 unread news item I'm probably missing something here. Please elaborate on how this GLEP meets the Preemptive design goal... I'm probably missing something obvious here, because I can't see why *existing* emerge --changelog code cannot be recycled for this feature to display upgrade messages when running emerge -uDav world... -- Best regards, Jakub Moc mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] GPG signature: http://pgp.mit.edu:11371/pks/lookup?op=getsearch=0xCEBA3D9E Primary key fingerprint: D2D7 933C 9BA1 C95B 2C95 B30F 8717 D5FD CEBA 3D9E ... still no signature ;) pgpGyWAZW9tWL.pgp Description: PGP signature
Re: [gentoo-dev] GLEP 42 (Was: Getting Important Updates To Users)
On Tuesday 01 November 2005 08:46, Brian Harring wrote: On Tue, Nov 01, 2005 at 08:36:23AM +0900, Chris White wrote: Attached in plain text form is glep 42 for the discussed thread. emerge --news support - As already mentioned by Stuart, in this way users are bound to the one thing guaranteed on their system: Portage. Through portage, the same location where etc-update notifications are displayed (after emerge --sync and at the finish of an emerge), will contain a notice about news updates. These news updates should come in the form of a file contained within the portage tree for users that want news updates on a networkless system. Should the user run these items in the background or send the output to /dev/null for any reason, a --news option should also be avaliable in emerge for them to review the news at a convient time. And this file is what format? How is the format going to be structured so that emerge can know what entries to ignore? How is emerge going to pull those entries again? What restrictions are there for what goes into this file, to keep the signal to noise ratio sane? Etc. Details man, details. But before details, what is the reasoning in turning emerge into an offline news reader? So that admins that don't care enough to source news information via other supported means are covered? What's the functional difference between this emerge --news and the existing emerge --changelog? I'd like bugs to be better described; should a tutorial be added to emerge as well? -- Jason Stubbs -- gentoo-dev@gentoo.org mailing list
Re: [gentoo-dev] GLEP ??: Critical News Reporting
On Tue, 1 Nov 2005 09:25:34 +0100 Wernfried Haas [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: | On Tue, Nov 01, 2005 at 01:51:25AM +, Ciaran McCreesh wrote: | There is currently no explanation as to why this GLEP should be | chosen over ChrisWhite's 42. I will add such a section if anyone | requests it. | Any reason why you chose bashing Chris' GLEP in another mail and start | your own instead of working together and bringing your input for 42? Yup. I already had most of my GLEP written, and I don't see anything in ChrisWhite's list of vagueness worth using. Besides, there's nothing wrong with multiple competing GLEPs on an issue. | I miss references to the old log ewarn issue, which really should be | solved as well while we're at it. Separate concern. | There are some good ideas in your GLEP, so are some in Chris'. No good | is coming from having two similar GLEPs around at the same | time. So please don't waste our time [1] by having two more or less | redundant GLEPs discussed. It's my view that ChrisWhite's GLEP is a complete waste of space, given that it doesn't contain an actual proposal. I see no point in using it. -- Ciaran McCreesh : Gentoo Developer (Vim, Shell tools, Fluxbox, Cron) Mail: ciaranm at gentoo.org Web : http://dev.gentoo.org/~ciaranm pgpFw7VJjtZdT.pgp Description: PGP signature
Re: [gentoo-dev] GLEP ??: Critical News Reporting
maillog: 01/11/2005-11:45:08(+0100): Jakub Moc types 1.11.2005, 11:00:22, Thierry Carrez wrote: Aren't those messages displayed after the damage is done ? Typical use : - emerge --sync run as a daily cron job - emerge -a mysql - great, a new version is there. Typing Yes - system gets borken - emerge spits out message saying 14 files need updating and there is 1 unread news item I'm probably missing something here. Please elaborate on how this GLEP meets the Preemptive design goal... I'm probably missing something obvious here, because I can't see why *existing* emerge --changelog code cannot be recycled for this feature to display upgrade messages when running emerge -uDav world... That reminds me of the idea to stick tags in the ChangeLog: http://groups.google.com/group/linux.gentoo.dev/msg/8f2dc84619be5c5b?fwc=1 But still, I'm guessing the idea of --news is to tell people that they need to do something A.S.A.P. This means as soon as the news are obtained, and the users are nagged about the news on *every invocation of emerge*, similar to the /etc messages, and not only when they decide to install some package, which is when --changelog kicks in. And then, I am not sure why glsa-check cannot do the same job... -- () Georgi Georgiev () Computers are unreliable, but humans are () ()[EMAIL PROTECTED]() even more unreliable. Any system which () () http://www.gg3.net/ () depends on human reliability is() () --- () unreliable. -- Gilb() pgp5hGSNJIwjC.pgp Description: PGP signature
[gentoo-dev] Re: GLEP ??: Critical News Reporting
Two things. One, if users run --sync in a cronjob, which many do, this preemptive goes out the window. Two, an alternative to that, if we are all recoding portage anyways :) Have portage place a special note next to any items with relevent news when -a or -p is passed, and then, emerge --news cat/package could show relvent stuff, or --news to see it all. On 11/1/05, Georgi Georgiev [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: maillog: 01/11/2005-11:45:08(+0100): Jakub Moc types 1.11.2005, 11:00:22, Thierry Carrez wrote: Aren't those messages displayed after the damage is done ? Typical use : - emerge --sync run as a daily cron job - emerge -a mysql - great, a new version is there. Typing Yes - system gets borken - emerge spits out message saying 14 files need updating and there is 1 unread news item I'm probably missing something here. Please elaborate on how this GLEP meets the Preemptive design goal... I'm probably missing something obvious here, because I can't see why *existing* emerge --changelog code cannot be recycled for this feature to display upgrade messages when running emerge -uDav world... That reminds me of the idea to stick tags in the ChangeLog: http://groups.google.com/group/linux.gentoo.dev/msg/8f2dc84619be5c5b?fwc=1 But still, I'm guessing the idea of --news is to tell people that they need to do something A.S.A.P. This means as soon as the news are obtained, and the users are nagged about the news on *every invocation of emerge*, similar to the /etc messages, and not only when they decide to install some package, which is when --changelog kicks in. And then, I am not sure why glsa-check cannot do the same job... -- () Georgi Georgiev () Computers are unreliable, but humans are () ()[EMAIL PROTECTED]() even more unreliable. Any system which () () http://www.gg3.net/ () depends on human reliability is() () --- () unreliable. -- Gilb() -- gentoo-dev@gentoo.org mailing list
Re: [gentoo-dev] GLEP ??: Critical News Reporting
On Tue, 01 Nov 2005 13:16:03 +0100 Thierry Carrez [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: | For them to know about it, they need to be warned when they do their | emerge -p world or emerge -a mysql that the upgrade is not as easy | as it seems. People using a cron job to sync are probably a | significant part of our user base... Have Portage give a red flashy before emerge if there're unread news items? Although, a better solution for users who cron sync would be to have said cron mail them all the relevant news files... -- Ciaran McCreesh : Gentoo Developer (Vim, Shell tools, Fluxbox, Cron) Mail: ciaranm at gentoo.org Web : http://dev.gentoo.org/~ciaranm pgpv4SlpznIHh.pgp Description: PGP signature
Re: [gentoo-dev] GLEP ??: Critical News Reporting
On Tue, 1 Nov 2005 13:39:24 +0100 Jakub Moc [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: | Uhm... emerge sync is a *bad* time to display upgrade messages, it's | simply irrelevant at that time, I'm not upgrading anything at the | moment and might not be upgrading for next week or so. It doesn't display the messages. It displays a note saying you have unread news items. | The messages should be displayed when I'm about to upgrade an ebuild | which has an upgrade note associated with the new version. Sending | mail via cron might be a nice optional feature for those who want to | use it. Not really a good idea, a) because news items aren't tied directly to ebuilds, and b) because people like advance warning of when you upgrade Apache, all hell will break loose! rather than having it sprung on them suddenly when they're trying to do a quick update. Getting the news item in advance allows for planning. -- Ciaran McCreesh : Gentoo Developer (Vim, Shell tools, Fluxbox, Cron) Mail: ciaranm at gentoo.org Web : http://dev.gentoo.org/~ciaranm pgpW1XkYvcmx6.pgp Description: PGP signature
Re[2]: [gentoo-dev] GLEP ??: Critical News Reporting
1.11.2005, 13:26:57, Ciaran McCreesh wrote: On Tue, 01 Nov 2005 13:16:03 +0100 Thierry Carrez [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: | For them to know about it, they need to be warned when they do their | emerge -p world or emerge -a mysql that the upgrade is not as easy | as it seems. People using a cron job to sync are probably a | significant part of our user base... Have Portage give a red flashy before emerge if there're unread news items? Although, a better solution for users who cron sync would be to have said cron mail them all the relevant news files... Uhm... emerge sync is a *bad* time to display upgrade messages, it's simply irrelevant at that time, I'm not upgrading anything at the moment and might not be upgrading for next week or so. The messages should be displayed when I'm about to upgrade an ebuild which has an upgrade note associated with the new version. Sending mail via cron might be a nice optional feature for those who want to use it. -- Best regards, Jakub Moc mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] GPG signature: http://pgp.mit.edu:11371/pks/lookup?op=getsearch=0xCEBA3D9E Primary key fingerprint: D2D7 933C 9BA1 C95B 2C95 B30F 8717 D5FD CEBA 3D9E ... still no signature ;) pgpt93NCyWMev.pgp Description: PGP signature
Re: [gentoo-dev] GLEP ??: Critical News Reporting
Ciaran McCreesh wrote: On Tue, 1 Nov 2005 13:39:24 +0100 Jakub Moc [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: | Uhm... emerge sync is a *bad* time to display upgrade messages, it's | simply irrelevant at that time, I'm not upgrading anything at the | moment and might not be upgrading for next week or so. It doesn't display the messages. It displays a note saying you have unread news items. | The messages should be displayed when I'm about to upgrade an ebuild | which has an upgrade note associated with the new version. Sending | mail via cron might be a nice optional feature for those who want to | use it. Not really a good idea, a) because news items aren't tied directly to ebuilds, and b) because people like advance warning of when you upgrade Apache, all hell will break loose! rather than having it sprung on them suddenly when they're trying to do a quick update. Getting the news item in advance allows for planning. Personally, I'm for both. E-mailing cron output is a relatively simple operation. Adding a red flashy deal to emerge saying hey, package X has an unread news item, also simple as long as the read/unread format is non-complex. Having emerge --news, I dislike emmensely. We have emerge --changelog, and contrary to what someone posted above, it shows up whenever you specify -l. However changelog does have it's fair share of problems, mostly people who don't use the correct changelog format and break the tagging, causing -l to display nothing. If you want to make a seperate program to read the news, go for it. I don't see why we have to stick silly things in a core utility. emerge is a package manager, it does not do your laundry too. -Alec Warner (Antarus) -- gentoo-dev@gentoo.org mailing list
Re: [gentoo-dev] GLEP ??: Critical News Reporting
On Tue, 01 Nov 2005 08:34:25 -0500 Alec Warner [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: | Personally, I'm for both. E-mailing cron output is a relatively | simple operation. Adding a red flashy deal to emerge saying hey, | package X has an unread news item, also simple as long as the | read/unread format is non-complex. Checking for unread news items is just a case of checking for the existence of files in a particular directory. | If you want to make a seperate program to read the news, go for it. | I don't see why we have to stick silly things in a core utility. | emerge is a package manager, it does not do your laundry too. Well, I see no reason for Portage itself doing anything beyond basic news message filtering and installing and alerting that there are unread news messages. -- Ciaran McCreesh : Gentoo Developer (Vim, Shell tools, Fluxbox, Cron) Mail: ciaranm at gentoo.org Web : http://dev.gentoo.org/~ciaranm pgpsgoMzSNOgn.pgp Description: PGP signature
Re: [gentoo-dev] GLEP ??: Critical News Reporting
On Tue, 1 Nov 2005 01:51:25 + Ciaran McCreesh [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: The attached GLEP is a draft proposal for the emerge --news thing that's been under discussion. There are still some TODO items. These are calls for people to weigh in with suggestions. Of course, suggestions on other items are good too... Before this, make pre-install and post-install emerge messages more usable, instead of having them lost among thousands of gibberish text in batch emerges. -- Andrej Ticho Kacian ticho at gentoo dot org Gentoo Linux Developer - net-mail, antivirus, sound, x86 signature.asc Description: PGP signature
Re[2]: [gentoo-dev] GLEP ??: Critical News Reporting
1.11.2005, 13:48:06, Ciaran McCreesh wrote: | The messages should be displayed when I'm about to upgrade an ebuild | which has an upgrade note associated with the new version. Sending | mail via cron might be a nice optional feature for those who want to | use it. Not really a good idea, a) because news items aren't tied directly to ebuilds, and b) because people like advance warning of when you upgrade Apache, all hell will break loose! rather than having it sprung on them suddenly when they're trying to do a quick update. Getting the news item in advance allows for planning. What do you mean they aren't tied to ebuilds? I don't really understand what this feature should do then, it seems. Once again, what's wrong with reusing emerge --changelog mechanism for displaying this kind of information? I'm not particularly happy with idea of emerge as a newsreader really, IMHO we should display relevant, vital upgrading information *when relevant*, not to inform users about upgrades that they are not interested in in the least. Example: Don't bother me with mysql-4.1 upgrade instructions, I don't plan to upgrade to that version and did put it into package.mask. Another example: Don't bother me with upgrade instructions for ~arch ebuilds, I'm running stable. I want to read them when I decide to upgrade, put them into package.keywords and run emerge -uav someebuild/world or when it goes stable. And please, keep the thing simple so that I can be done in reasonable amount of time and does not follow the destiny of einfo/ewarn logging (3 years and counting). -- Best regards, Jakub Moc mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] GPG signature: http://pgp.mit.edu:11371/pks/lookup?op=getsearch=0xCEBA3D9E Primary key fingerprint: D2D7 933C 9BA1 C95B 2C95 B30F 8717 D5FD CEBA 3D9E ... still no signature ;) pgpLvp5ixQ5zP.pgp Description: PGP signature
Re: Re[2]: [gentoo-dev] GLEP ??: Critical News Reporting
On Tuesday 01 November 2005 13:39, Jakub Moc wrote: Uhm... emerge sync is a *bad* time to display upgrade messages, it's simply irrelevant at that time, I'm not upgrading anything at the moment and might not be upgrading for next week or so. If you are not upgrading anything the news is not relevant for you anyway. The news is to accompany changes to the tree. The messages should be displayed when I'm about to upgrade an ebuild which has an upgrade note associated with the new version. Sending mail via cron might be a nice optional feature for those who want to use it. I agree that it might be usefull to allways declare the related package(s). Even when the message is not restricted to them. Paul -- Paul de Vrieze Gentoo Developer Mail: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Homepage: http://www.devrieze.net pgp5ri1pptgYX.pgp Description: PGP signature
Re: [gentoo-dev] GLEP ??: Critical News Reporting
On Tuesday 01 November 2005 02:51, Ciaran McCreesh wrote: The attached GLEP is a draft proposal for the emerge --news thing that's been under discussion. There are still some TODO items. These are calls for people to weigh in with suggestions. Of course, suggestions on other items are good too... There is currently no explanation as to why this GLEP should be chosen over ChrisWhite's 42. I will add such a section if anyone requests it. Grant, please pick me a number. I have one suggestion on an added header. I think that an Overrides: header should be added. This is for those messages that make a previous message obsolete. Say for example that an upgrade guide to modular X was posted, but that a critical error was made in it. This was fixed, and to make sure that people read the new message, it is not a higher version. It is however not a good idea to have people then read the old message when the new message is there. Paul -- Paul de Vrieze Gentoo Developer Mail: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Homepage: http://www.devrieze.net pgptOkmTozqPt.pgp Description: PGP signature
Re: [gentoo-dev] GLEP ??: Critical News Reporting
On Tue, Nov 01, 2005 at 02:54:51PM +0100, Andrej Kacian wrote: On Tue, 1 Nov 2005 01:51:25 + Ciaran McCreesh [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: The attached GLEP is a draft proposal for the emerge --news thing that's been under discussion. There are still some TODO items. These are calls for people to weigh in with suggestions. Of course, suggestions on other items are good too... Before this, make pre-install and post-install emerge messages more usable, instead of having them lost among thousands of gibberish text in batch emerges. I always ask myself what's wrong with doing a simple if statement before displaying infos, warnings or errors which don't affect the current installaion. No one complained when i started doing that ages ago in bash-completion. I don't mean huge and resource hungry tests. But why tell the user that he should remove a file in /etc with einfo when it doesn't even exist? (That's just an example) Some ebuilds do this now, but most still broadcast (sometimes huge) text floods. -- gentoo-dev@gentoo.org mailing list
Re: [gentoo-dev] Re: GLEP 42 (Was: Getting Important Updates To Users)
On Tue, 2005-11-01 at 08:56 +0100, Wernfried Haas wrote: On Mon, Oct 31, 2005 at 06:52:04PM -0500, Dan Meltzer wrote: 1) Why post to forums.g.o if its on www, why would one check forums instead of www. Redundancy - to get the attention of those folks that for whatever reason visit the forums and not www.gentoo.org in a specific time interval. The more places you cover, the more likely people will see it somewhere. We've been doing that with GLSAs for quite a while now. Exactly. While I agree that we need a single source where users can get their information, I feel that the *user* should be able to choose their source. If that is the gentoo-announce mailing list, or www.gentoo.org, or the forums, it doesn't matter. The same information should be duplicated. Make them *all* a definitive source. We don't need to check all of them if any one of them gives all of the information needed. As for subscriber counts or whatever, if by adding the information to gentoo-announce (or the forums or wherever), we reach 10 more users that we wouldn't have reached before, then I consider it a success. The idea is to reach as many users as possible here. To me, that means duplicating the information everywhere. -- Chris Gianelloni Release Engineering - Strategic Lead x86 Architecture Team Games - Developer Gentoo Linux signature.asc Description: This is a digitally signed message part
Re: [gentoo-dev] GLEP ??: Critical News Reporting
On Tue, 2005-11-01 at 12:26 +, Ciaran McCreesh wrote: On Tue, 01 Nov 2005 13:16:03 +0100 Thierry Carrez [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: | For them to know about it, they need to be warned when they do their | emerge -p world or emerge -a mysql that the upgrade is not as easy | as it seems. People using a cron job to sync are probably a | significant part of our user base... Have Portage give a red flashy before emerge if there're unread news items? Or have it die unless they have I_LIKE_A_BROKEN_SYSTEM_PLEASE_IGNORE_NEWS=yes in make.conf ;] Although, a better solution for users who cron sync would be to have said cron mail them all the relevant news files... We don't have control over what they do in cron, we do have control over portage itself. -- Chris Gianelloni Release Engineering - Strategic Lead x86 Architecture Team Games - Developer Gentoo Linux signature.asc Description: This is a digitally signed message part
Re[2]: [gentoo-dev] quixote currently unmaintained
1.11.2005, 18:04:08, Carsten Lohrke wrote: On Monday 31 October 2005 22:44, Petteri Räty wrote: Checked the bugzilla and the two open bugs seem to be version bumps. I think the policy is not to remove working ebuilds from the tree although they are not maintained by anyone. It's not policy to keep unmaintained stuff in the repository either. I really welcome it, when someone takes the stance to clean out the tree a bit. There's too much unmaintained or even broken stuff in it. I think Grant should go for it, unless you or someone else takes over maintainership. OK, lets remove perl. -- Jakub pgpXOUoCqvmmX.pgp Description: PGP signature
Re: [gentoo-dev] quixote currently unmaintained
On Monday 31 October 2005 22:44, Petteri Räty wrote: Checked the bugzilla and the two open bugs seem to be version bumps. I think the policy is not to remove working ebuilds from the tree although they are not maintained by anyone. I follow Petteri's statement, I don't think we should remove a package just because it has noone maintaining it, and is just hanging below latest versions, without other reasons, else we should remove a good 90% of what we have in media-video and media-sound. It's different if things accumulates bug over bugs, like xmms was, or are broken and unmaintained upstream. -- Diego Flameeyes Pettenò - http://dev.gentoo.org/~flameeyes/ Gentoo/ALT lead, Gentoo/FreeBSD, Video, AMD64, Sound, PAM, KDE pgp8isWwGqrAl.pgp Description: PGP signature
Re: [gentoo-dev] quixote currently unmaintained
On Tuesday 01 November 2005 18:11, Jakub Moc wrote: OK, lets remove perl. Such a reply is not an argument, but pointless. As you know as well, Perl is not exactly something other packages do not depend on. Carsten pgpUegjBwwo3a.pgp Description: PGP signature
Re: [gentoo-dev] GLEP ??: Critical News Reporting
On Tue, 1 Nov 2005 17:22:29 +0100 Jan Kundrát [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: | What's wrong with XML format similar to the one that is used for our | GLSAs? 1. Portage does not handle XML. Portage will not handle XML in the near future. 2. Many users do not have an XML parser installed. 3. The standard Unix tools cannot be used on XML files. 4. Bloat. 5. XML is merely adding another problem to the one we have already. There is no XML in this GLEP for the same reasons that there is no Java, CORBA, EJBs, web services, on demand computing initiatives or invisible pink unicorns. I have an eselect module which can read these news files. The whole thing is about the same size as the DTD would need to be for an XML-based solution. I have a parser written for the format in question. The whole thing is smaller than the initialisation code for an off the shelf XML parser. It's not a question of what's wrong with XML?. It's a question of what advantage would we gain by strapping a giant flapping wet kipper to a bicycle?. -- Ciaran McCreesh : Gentoo Developer (Vim, Shell tools, Fluxbox, Cron) Mail: ciaranm at gentoo.org Web : http://dev.gentoo.org/~ciaranm pgpUIAhOatTRa.pgp Description: PGP signature
Re: [gentoo-dev] GLEP ??: Critical News Reporting
On Tue, 1 Nov 2005 15:16:27 +0100 Paul de Vrieze [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: | I have one suggestion on an added header. I think that an Overrides: | header should be added. This is for those messages that make a | previous message obsolete. Say for example that an upgrade guide to | modular X was posted, but that a critical error was made in it. This | was fixed, and to make sure that people read the new message, it is | not a higher version. | | It is however not a good idea to have people then read the old | message when the new message is there. Hrm. The advantage of this over simply removing the old news item is that it'll work if the user keeps unread messages around between multiple syncs. The disadvantage is that it makes the implementation a bit trickier. Opinions on the tradeoff? -- Ciaran McCreesh : Gentoo Developer (Vim, Shell tools, Fluxbox, Cron) Mail: ciaranm at gentoo.org Web : http://dev.gentoo.org/~ciaranm pgpnVKdFoIm7A.pgp Description: PGP signature
Re: [gentoo-dev] quixote currently unmaintained
On Tuesday 01 November 2005 18:43, Jon Portnoy wrote: You are technically correct in the sense that there is literally no policy stating keep unmaintained stuff in the repository. All I wanted to say is that we have no policy about it and a fair share of rotten ebuilds in the repository reflects this. I do not say we should remove every (temporarily) unmaintained package, nor do I care about exactly this one, but at least grant does it in this case and advises to remove it, if no one is willing to take it. Now we can hear voices no, someone could miss it, instead just taking over maintainership. The bottom line: No one really needs to take care of the packages they maintain and those who do, get the reply not to do. Oh, if Grant just had (against policy) removed the package silently as others did here and there - probably no one had bothered. Carsten pgpdU8Y2ExRnX.pgp Description: PGP signature
Re: [gentoo-dev] quixote currently unmaintained
On Tue, 1 Nov 2005 12:43:16 -0500 Jon Portnoy [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: | However, going around removing things simply because they're | unmaintained is no good. Unmaintained and broken is a different story. How about unmaintained and in need of version bumps that no-one is going to do? -- Ciaran McCreesh : Gentoo Developer (Vim, Shell tools, Fluxbox, Cron) Mail: ciaranm at gentoo.org Web : http://dev.gentoo.org/~ciaranm pgprnKNXRyEJW.pgp Description: PGP signature
Re: [gentoo-dev] GLEP ??: Critical News Reporting
On Tue, 1 Nov 2005 18:18:55 + Ciaran McCreesh [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: | Before this, make pre-install and post-install emerge messages more | usable, instead of having them lost among thousands of gibberish text | in batch emerges. Separate issue. That one's the whole elog thing. Yes, it is a separate issue, but it's an issue that's been around for far too long, and seems to be ignored, despite the apparent importance of emerge messages for users. -- Andrej Ticho Kacian ticho at gentoo dot org Gentoo Linux Developer - net-mail, antivirus, sound, x86 signature.asc Description: PGP signature
Re: [gentoo-dev] Re: GLEP 42 (Was: Getting Important Updates To Users)
On Tue, 2005-11-01 at 08:56 +0100, Wernfried Haas wrote: On Mon, Oct 31, 2005 at 06:52:04PM -0500, Dan Meltzer wrote: 1) Why post to forums.g.o if its on www, why would one check forums instead of www. Redundancy - to get the attention of those folks that for whatever reason visit the forums and not www.gentoo.org in a specific time interval. The more places you cover, the more likely people will see it somewhere. We've been doing that with GLSAs for quite a while now. The users I've spoken to about our news situation have expressly stated that one of their concerns is that there are *too many* places to check for news. They're not looking for us to scatter news across many mediums - they want one place to go. Best regards, Stu -- Stuart Herbert [EMAIL PROTECTED] Gentoo Developer http://www.gentoo.org/ http://stu.gnqs.org/diary/ GnuGP key id# F9AFC57C available from http://pgp.mit.edu Key fingerprint = 31FB 50D4 1F88 E227 F319 C549 0C2F 80BA F9AF C57C -- signature.asc Description: This is a digitally signed message part
Re: [gentoo-dev] app-admin/gwcc being removed
On Thu, 2005-09-22 at 16:33 -0400, Daniel Gryniewicz wrote: Hi, all. app-admin/gwcc has security issues, and has been unmaintained upstream for 3 years. The Gnome herd is no longer interested in maintaining it. I've masked it, and will remove it in a couple of weeks, if no one steps forward to maintain it. Daniel Last call for gwcc. If no one steps up, I'll remove it in the next couple of days. Daniel -- gentoo-dev@gentoo.org mailing list
Re: [gentoo-dev] GLEP ??: Critical News Reporting
Andrej Kacian wrote: On Tue, 1 Nov 2005 18:18:55 + Ciaran McCreesh [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: | Before this, make pre-install and post-install emerge messages more | usable, instead of having them lost among thousands of gibberish text | in batch emerges. Separate issue. That one's the whole elog thing. Yes, it is a separate issue, but it's an issue that's been around for far too long, and seems to be ignored, despite the apparent importance of emerge messages for users. http://search.gmane.org/search.php?group=gmane.linux.gentoo.portage.develquery=elog The first 7 or 8 results should about cut it. As for it taking forever, code doesn't write itself, and 1000's of whining users/devs don't get code written either. -- gentoo-dev@gentoo.org mailing list
Re: [gentoo-dev] GLEP ??: Critical News Reporting
Andrej Kacian wrote: [Tue Nov 01 2005, 01:20:54PM CST] Separate issue. That one's the whole elog thing. Yes, it is a separate issue, but it's an issue that's been around for far too long, and seems to be ignored, despite the apparent importance of emerge messages for users. That seems a bit unfair to me. There's a complete logging facility in portage CVS for a version that's probably not going to be released, but I believe that the logging stuff is being back-ported to the current version of portage. (Moreover, I would argue that this issue was never ignored, but it often wasn't at the top of the list for what our limited portage devs should be working on: see http://bugs.gentoo.org/show_bug.cgi?id=11359#c83 .) -g2boojum- -- Grant Goodyear Gentoo Developer [EMAIL PROTECTED] http://www.gentoo.org/~g2boojum GPG Fingerprint: D706 9802 1663 DEF5 81B0 9573 A6DC 7152 E0F6 5B76 pgpu0sLTvbkF5.pgp Description: PGP signature
Re: [gentoo-dev] quixote currently unmaintained
On Tuesday 01 November 2005 19:49, Ciaran McCreesh wrote: How about unmaintained and in need of version bumps that no-one is going to do? Depends on the need. Debian is able to cope with old versions of software without problems. If there are no outstanding bugs about the package, a need of a bump is not a requirement. -- Diego Flameeyes Pettenò - http://dev.gentoo.org/~flameeyes/ Gentoo/ALT lead, Gentoo/FreeBSD, Video, AMD64, Sound, PAM, KDE pgpUbXdquH1oa.pgp Description: PGP signature
Re: [gentoo-dev] Re: GLEP 42 (Was: Getting Important Updates To Users)
On Tue, 2005-11-01 at 19:32 +, Stuart Herbert wrote: On Tue, 2005-11-01 at 08:56 +0100, Wernfried Haas wrote: On Mon, Oct 31, 2005 at 06:52:04PM -0500, Dan Meltzer wrote: 1) Why post to forums.g.o if its on www, why would one check forums instead of www. Redundancy - to get the attention of those folks that for whatever reason visit the forums and not www.gentoo.org in a specific time interval. The more places you cover, the more likely people will see it somewhere. We've been doing that with GLSAs for quite a while now. The users I've spoken to about our news situation have expressly stated that one of their concerns is that there are *too many* places to check for news. Did you specifically ask them if it is because we have different news in different locations? Somehow I think you're obscuring some facts to make your own argument. Allow me to make this one. If I want to get all of my facts from gentoo-announce, do I give a damn if the same thing is *also* posted on www.gentoo.org for others to read? Does it somehow inhibit my ability to get all of the news from gentoo-announce? They're not looking for us to scatter news across many mediums - they want one place to go. The only problem that we have now with our multiple mediums is that not all news is on all mediums. We should have the same information going to all of these and let the user choose which method they like for getting news. -- Chris Gianelloni Release Engineering - Strategic Lead x86 Architecture Team Games - Developer Gentoo Linux signature.asc Description: This is a digitally signed message part
Re: [gentoo-dev] Re: GLEP 42 (Was: Getting Important Updates To Users)
On Tuesday 01 November 2005 19:32, Stuart Herbert wrote: 1) Why post to forums.g.o if its on www, why would one check forums instead of www. Redundancy - to get the attention of those folks that for whatever The users I've spoken to about our news situation have expressly stated that one of their concerns is that there are *too many* places to check for news. They're not looking for us to scatter news across many mediums - they want one place to go. This user would prefer important news in as many places as possible. Yes, scattering different types of news about the tree in different places is stupid, having the same news in 4 different places might be mildly annoying if you see it 4 times, but if 4 times as many users see it all the better. Redundancy is a Good Thing. -- Mike Williams -- gentoo-dev@gentoo.org mailing list
Re: [gentoo-dev] GLEP ??: Critical News Reporting
On Tue, 1 Nov 2005 13:44:17 -0600 Grant Goodyear [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: That seems a bit unfair to me. There's a complete logging facility in portage CVS for a version that's probably not going to be released, but I believe that the logging stuff is being back-ported to the current version of portage. (Moreover, I would argue that this issue was never ignored, but it often wasn't at the top of the list for what our limited portage devs should be working on: see http://bugs.gentoo.org/show_bug.cgi?id=11359#c83 .) It seems I was misinformed about this. My apologies to anyone working on this rather vital portage feature. -- Andrej Ticho Kacian ticho at gentoo dot org Gentoo Linux Developer - net-mail, antivirus, sound, x86 signature.asc Description: PGP signature
Re: [gentoo-dev] GLEP ??: Critical News Reporting
On Tuesday 01 of November 2005 19:25 Ciaran McCreesh wrote: On Tue, 1 Nov 2005 17:22:29 +0100 Jan Kundrát [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: | What's wrong with XML format similar to the one that is used for our | GLSAs? 1. Portage does not handle XML. Portage will not handle XML in the near future. How will it handle GLSAs then? [1] 5. XML is merely adding another problem to the one we have already. Could you please explain? There is no XML in this GLEP for the same reasons that there is no Java, CORBA, EJBs, web services, on demand computing initiatives or invisible pink unicorns. I'm not sure if our GLSAs use PHP, ODBC, ASP, SOAP, computer grids or invisible pink unicorns while I'm pretty sure they do use XML. I have an eselect module which can read these news files. The whole thing is about the same size as the DTD would need to be for an XML-based solution. I have a parser written for the format in question. The whole thing is smaller than the initialisation code for an off the shelf XML parser. Great. Why haven't you just used existing code from `glsa-check`, BTW? It's not a question of what's wrong with XML?. It's a question of what advantage would we gain by strapping a giant flapping wet kipper to a bicycle?. Or (a little bit rephrased) why should we stick with consistent file formats. [1] http://www.gentoo.org/proj/en/portage/glsa-integration.xml Cheers, -jkt -- cd /local/pub more beer /dev/mouth pgpW3YjifGedE.pgp Description: PGP signature
Re: [gentoo-dev] GLEP ??: Critical News Reporting
On Tue, 1 Nov 2005 22:57:13 +0100 Jan Kundrát [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: | On Tuesday 01 of November 2005 19:25 Ciaran McCreesh wrote: | On Tue, 1 Nov 2005 17:22:29 +0100 Jan Kundrát [EMAIL PROTECTED] | wrote: | | What's wrong with XML format similar to the one that is used for | | our GLSAs? | | 1. Portage does not handle XML. Portage will not handle XML in the | near future. | | How will it handle GLSAs then? [1] gentoolkit != portage. | 5. XML is merely adding another problem to the one we have already. | | Could you please explain? Parsing XML is complicated. Writing XML is complicated. I put together a complete working client that can show news items in the plain text format proposed -- it took me fifteen minutes to write. I threw together a script which can be called after a cron sync that mails news items to root in under a minute. There is no way this could be done if XML were being used -- any task involving news items would be a major chore. | There is no XML in this GLEP for the same reasons that there is no | Java, CORBA, EJBs, web services, on demand computing initiatives or | invisible pink unicorns. | | I'm not sure if our GLSAs use PHP, ODBC, ASP, SOAP, computer grids or | invisible pink unicorns while I'm pretty sure they do use XML. And? Why repeat previous mistakes? | I have an eselect module which can read these news files. The whole | thing is about the same size as the DTD would need to be for an | XML-based solution. I have a parser written for the format in | question. The whole thing is smaller than the initialisation code | for an off the shelf XML parser. | | Great. Why haven't you just used existing code from `glsa-check`, BTW? Because merely figuring out the XML DTD takes longer than it does to write an entire client for plain text news items. | It's not a question of what's wrong with XML?. It's a question of | what advantage would we gain by strapping a giant flapping wet | kipper to a bicycle?. | | Or (a little bit rephrased) why should we stick with consistent file | formats. Uh, you'd have to invent a load of new XML DTD stuff for this anyway. So you're not using a consistent file format at all, you're just using a consistent unnecessary layer in the middle, which as a side effect makes your files incompatible with every standard Unix tool ever written. Using XML does not magically make things compatible. XML is just a layer in the middle. Any tool processing XML files still has to worry about however the DTD in question works. You think XML magically makes things compatible? Then I suggest you write a GuieXML to Docbook conversion tool, and see how many thousand lines of XSLT it takes. All XML does is move the conversion and parsing problems to a different, more complex level. -- Ciaran McCreesh : Gentoo Developer (Vim, Shell tools, Fluxbox, Cron) Mail: ciaranm at gentoo.org Web : http://dev.gentoo.org/~ciaranm pgpFlVM8v56sm.pgp Description: PGP signature
Re: [gentoo-dev] GLEP ??: Critical News Reporting
On Tue, Nov 01, 2005 at 10:16:35PM +, Ciaran McCreesh wrote: On Tue, 1 Nov 2005 22:57:13 +0100 Jan Kundr??t [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: | On Tuesday 01 of November 2005 19:25 Ciaran McCreesh wrote: | On Tue, 1 Nov 2005 17:22:29 +0100 Jan Kundr??t [EMAIL PROTECTED] | wrote: | | What's wrong with XML format similar to the one that is used for | | our GLSAs? | | 1. Portage does not handle XML. Portage will not handle XML in the | near future. | | How will it handle GLSAs then? [1] gentoolkit != portage. Correct. Course, also incorrect. We already have a module for parsing metadata.xml in use in the experimental 2.1 branch (which can be backported to 2.0 if anyone wants it and does the work). Python comes bundled with xml as long as you don't have the build flag enabled. | 5. XML is merely adding another problem to the one we have already. | | Could you please explain? Parsing XML is complicated. Writing XML is complicated. I put together a complete working client that can show news items in the plain text format proposed -- it took me fifteen minutes to write. I threw together a script which can be called after a cron sync that mails news items to root in under a minute. There is no way this could be done if XML were being used -- any task involving news items would be a major chore. Come on now, this is a bit of bullshit. http://dev.gentoo.org/~ferringb/portage_metadata.py, 47 lines Might be a pain in the ass under the frameworks you deal in, but something as simple as news items can be done pretty quickly. | I have an eselect module which can read these news files. The whole | thing is about the same size as the DTD would need to be for an | XML-based solution. I have a parser written for the format in | question. The whole thing is smaller than the initialisation code | for an off the shelf XML parser. | | Great. Why haven't you just used existing code from `glsa-check`, BTW? Because merely figuring out the XML DTD takes longer than it does to write an entire client for plain text news items. Not arguing for, or against, just pointing out certain arguements are questionable... ~harring pgpSxOFaWlwdJ.pgp Description: PGP signature
