[h-cost] was lacing now 1820s underwear
Hi all, The thread on lacing was very timely as it got me going again on my late 1820s outfit so on to the questions. I'm looking at doing a late 1820s outfit from the skin out (I already have Fran's excellent book) and am not finding undergarments specifically dated to 1828. This is a transition period from the classical Regency look into the big gigot sleeves so the sleeve heads are large but not huge, the waistline has crept down to about the natural waist, maybe a little high but not right up under the bust. Classic Regency corsets are too short but a later corset (Edwardian) gives the wrong profile. As you already have _The Lady's Stratagem_, you'll note that the instructions and diagrams on corset making were published in the late 1820s, and the corset styles date from that period. The material on pages 261-281 was published in 1829, and the material on pages 282-303 was published in 1828. However, the corset diagram on page 304, though published in 1825, is a rather earlier style. The instructions for shifts on pages 369-370 are from the 1825 source, and I drew the diagrams myself, following the measurements in the instructions. However, shift styles did not change as rapidly as some others. You'll find the material on petticoats, chemisettes, and so forth from looking in the index. I found no references to drawers except for the ones on page 73 and 222. Chapter 8, which details the process of getting dressed, contains many references and inferences to what constituted an outfit and how its components were made, as well as how to put it on. Likewise, Chapter 16, om mending and alterations. Note that the various references to supporting the late 1820s sleeves that I found, refer to lining/stiffening them with buckram, and some to boning them here and there, but not to a special support undergarment. Hope this helps. Fran Lavolta Press New book on 1820s clothing! http://www.lavoltapress.com ___ h-costume mailing list h-costume@mail.indra.com http://mail.indra.com/mailman/listinfo/h-costume
Re: [h-cost] was lacing now 1820s underwear
I didn't find any references to making corded stays from the 1820s, which I found curious; only bones and wire elastics. Fran Lavolta Press New book on 1820s clothing! http://www.lavoltapress.com Aylwen Garden wrote: Although can I add the stays are for 1830 and 1840, but are just as suitable for late 1820. Bye for now, Aylwen Gardiner-Garden ___ h-costume mailing list h-costume@mail.indra.com http://mail.indra.com/mailman/listinfo/h-costume
Re: [h-cost] was lacing now 1820s underwear
albert...@aol.com wrote: I find the Past Patterns corset pattern #708 to be a very useful pattern. I know they mark it as 1840-1880, but I find that it could work for 1829. It's that gusset construction... basically a cylinder with gussets added to compensate for the swell of the bust and hips that kind of construction lends itself to the earlier part of the mid-19th century. For the 1820's you might want to elongate the bottom of the corset some. Maybe not put a split busk but a solid wide one in front and even add shoulder straps. But the basic (and really lovely) shape of this corset can easily work, even with a waist 1 or so above natural level. -- When I was researching 1820s stays, for the earlier style, the one from the 1825 source I used, I could definitely see the philosophy of starting with straight pieces of material and then adding bust and hip gussets to accommodate the body curves. You are right about the shoulder straps. I found instructions and diagrams for 13 kinds of 1820s stays to put in _The Lady's Stratagem_, including half stays (also known as morning belts), night stays (also known as brassieres), elastic stays, and various put-them-on-by-yourself stays. Every single one of them has shoulder straps. Fran Lavolta Press New book on 1820s clothing! http://www.lavoltapress.com ___ h-costume mailing list h-costume@mail.indra.com http://mail.indra.com/mailman/listinfo/h-costume
Re: [h-cost] Bowing to the inevitable
Where does anyone find the time to do all this? I'm exhausted just trying to keep up with h-costume, and dropping in to read the archives of a handful of Yahoo groups on the web every couple of months. Fran Lavolta Press New book on 1820s clothing! http://www.lavoltapress.com Kimiko Small wrote: One of us! One of us! Now you just need to join Twitter and Live Journal and you can turn in your Luddite badge! ___ h-costume mailing list h-costume@mail.indra.com http://mail.indra.com/mailman/listinfo/h-costume
Re: [h-cost] Bowing to the inevitable
I work while I eat breakfast and lunch, and throughout most evenings. My weekends and holidays are the same schedule. Penalty of running a small business. But, I've gotten really good at my mail filters, my delete key, skimming, and reading on an archives-only or occasional basis! I really can't see reading Twitter, it sounds like my idea of Hell. Fran New book on 1820s clothing! http://www.lavoltapress.com Kimiko Small wrote: It does take time, which I find when I am eating lunch, and relaxing during the news hour or in the evening if I don't have anything else to do. You also learn to skim and only read the posts that interest you, and skip the rest. Kimiko - Original Message From: Lavolta Press f...@lavoltapress.com Where does anyone find the time to do all this? I'm exhausted just trying to keep up with h-costume, and dropping in to read the archives of a handful of Yahoo groups on the web every couple of months. Fran Lavolta Press New book on 1820s clothing! http://www.lavoltapress.com ___ h-costume mailing list h-costume@mail.indra.com http://mail.indra.com/mailman/listinfo/h-costume ___ h-costume mailing list h-costume@mail.indra.com http://mail.indra.com/mailman/listinfo/h-costume
[h-cost] The Peterson's magazines
I accidentally deleted the original message but I remember the substance. My response is: 1. The magazines are yours. You can do whatever you want with them. Why worry about conforming to other people's unwritten rules? 2. Yes, Peterson's is a very commonly found 19th-century magazine and yes, you can find complete copies (and bound annual volumes) fairly easily. 3. I try not to read the usually grade B fiction in them but sometimes I get sucked into it. There are some stories that revolve around clothing and show its importance to period readers in terms of things like getting husbands and keeping up the correct social front in reduced circumstances. These may interest you. 4. I have a sizable heap of largely gutted _Godey's_ and _Peterson's_ and loose pages from them, that someone gave me years ago. Since I would rather have good copies (and in some instances do have them), I've contemplated just throwing these onto the recycle pile. I almost never throw anything away, but probably I should do it once in awhile. 5. Your mileage may vary, do whatever is most convenient for you. Fran Lavolta Press New book on 1820s clothing! http://www.lavoltapress.com ___ h-costume mailing list h-costume@mail.indra.com http://mail.indra.com/mailman/listinfo/h-costume
Re: [h-cost] The Peterson's magazines
For another example, while I absolutely love projects that have digitized masses of material, like Google Books, Making of America, or Accessible Archives, copyright and access issues are still important for those who want to undertake small, focused digitization projects. Having access to an original item that is in the public domain makes those kinds of projects possible. (At least they will be as long as the Google legislation doesn't go through as it now stands.) Actually, Google is not pursuing legislation but a lawsuit. Furthermore, Google has made no attempt whatever to restrict access to, or scanning of, works in the public domain. It's true they spent a lot of money scanning public domain works. And they plan to sell them--not, in most cases, give them away, the free stuff is just a PR teaser--but that is not inherently illegal. What Google _has_ done is scan over 2 million works that are still under copyright and is planning to sell _those_, not via any legislation to directly change copyright law but via a class action suit and a contract made with a handful of parties who do not represent most authors or publishers. This includes not only the much-ballyhood and badly-named orphan works--mid-20th-century works still under copyright which Google wants to sell without bothering to locate the owners--but hundreds of thousands of works by live, fully locatable authors (including some I know personally) and in-business, fully locatable publishers, and including works still in print. Much of the outcry about Google's scanning of orphan works comes from others who would also like to violate the copyrights of orphan works but are afraid they can't financially withstand the resulting lawsuits whereas Google can. I have no sympathy. Forget about some bugbear of Google preventing access to public domain works, or other people scanning them. They can't, and no legal objection was ever raised to their scanning public domain works. The legal objection is to their scanning works still under copyright. As Google's scanning of copyrighted works is currently being investigated by the Justice Department, hopefully they will not get away with it. Fran Lavolta Press New book on 1820s clothing! http://www.lavoltapress.com ___ h-costume mailing list h-costume@mail.indra.com http://mail.indra.com/mailman/listinfo/h-costume
Re: [h-cost] The Peterson's magazines
What Google _has_ done is scan over 2 million works that are still under copyright and is planning to sell _those_, not via any legislation to directly change copyright law but via a class action suit and a contract made with a handful of parties who do not represent most authors or publishers. I should add, this project is not Google Book Search, where entire works were scanned for the purpose of providing display snippets and ads next to them. I am talking about Google scanning entire books (copyrighted, even in-print, as well as public domain books) to sell the full texts as e-books, as print-on-demand books, and as parts of anthologies compiled by Google. Google's strategy was to borrow the books from fully consenting libraries, contractually engage to defend copyright violation suits brought against those libraries, do low-quality scans of the books to get on the market fast, and then to legally assert that anyone who did not find out that their copyright had been violated and also withdraw consent within a very limited time period, had legally consented to Google's selling the work, and also ads within it (ad sales to be made by Google). Whereas, copyright law requires prior consent for the use of works. Even though I do not know of any of my works that were scanned (Google will not reveal this to anyone who does not first consent to their terms), I hired a lawyer to make sure my consent was firmly withdrawn. But, another wrinkle is, even if you officially withdraw consent Google makes no legal guarantee they will not scan and sell your work anyway. Some of the libraries in the project insisted that Google scan only public-domain works in their collections--but some, reassured by Google's relieving the libraries of legal liability, did not. Again, no one has ever objected to Google's scanning of public-domain works, or their plans to sell those works as e-books or print books, or their plans to sell ads within them. OK, I personally don't want modern ads inserted in 19th-century works that I buy (except for a tasteful list of the modern publisher's other books in the back) but apparently a lot of people don't object, or Google thinks they won't. The breathtakingly massive scanning of copyrighted works is another issue altogether. I'm rooting for the Justice Department. Lavolta Press New book on 1820s clothing! http://www.lavoltapress.com ___ h-costume mailing list h-costume@mail.indra.com http://mail.indra.com/mailman/listinfo/h-costume
Re: [h-cost] The Peterson's magazines
On the other hand I can understand Google selling them as many of the Public domain works that are free in their entirety on Google books are already being sold on ABEbooks by others as I found to my dismay after buying one. I did get a refund in the end. In the US it is perfectly legal for multiple sellers to sell, or give away, public domain works. As Google is not yet publishing print books that I know of, I assume you paid for a print copy from ABE. Printing is not free, in fact it is often very expensive. I do agree authors should be contacted due royalties paid, but I do feel some works that are unlikely to ever be reprinted are better scanned and made available, if sold though royalties should be paid. No matter what you personally feel, according to US copyright law it is illegal to reprint copyrighted books without the prior consent of the copyright owner. In fact, most of the orphan works, having been initially published after 1923, are not all that rare. Many are widely available on the used market. As Google's whole plan is _not_ to notify individual copyright owners--again, they've refused to tell me whether my works have been scanned unless I first sign their contract regarding compensation for any that were scanned--it follows that many copyright owners will not be able to collect royalties on those works. Furthermore, the contract Google is trying to impose on _all_ authors who do not explicitly withdraw their consent, is pretty negative. They are only paying $60 per copyrighted work scanned to compensate for copyright violation, whereas the court award in a suit is typically around $75,000. For multiple printings and formats of the same book (hardcover, paperback), the $60 applies to all together--you don't even get $60 apiece for them. There is absolutely no guarantee whatever of the dollar amount any copyright owner will make. Meanwhile, copyright owners will also actually have to _pay_ for each work to be in the Google registry (after a fixed amount of seed money is used up). Since the amount they will have to keep paying to remain in the system is not disclosed, then they could end up paying more than they make. Again, they have to consent now, without knowing that. If they quit paying, they effectively hand over their copyrights to Google permanently. Google's contract applies to the _entire copyright term of the work_. There is no negotiation of terms, and no ability whatever to withdraw once the default period for opting out is up. The opt-out deadline was extended from May 2009 to September 4, 2009. In other words, it's not far away. I should add that the Google contract applies to _every copyright holder in every country that signed the Berne agreement_. Not just those in the US. I gather there have been some protests from countries in the EU but I don't know a lot about that. Again, I'm rooting for the Justice Department. Fran Lavolta Press New book on 1820s clothing! http://www.lavoltapress.com ___ h-costume mailing list h-costume@mail.indra.com http://mail.indra.com/mailman/listinfo/h-costume
Re: [h-cost] Bowing to the inevitable
You add each person you want to follow — so you can control the signal to noise ratio. I imagine it's handy for people who are away from their computers for most of the day since one can set it up to send the tweets as text messages to the phone. In which case they would have a data plan for the phone... I know how Twitter works. The worst thing I can possibly imagine is people (chosen or not) breaking into my day any time they want, and largely for recreational purposes, with tiny little bits of info they think are interesting. How on earth could I actually concentrate for long periods, as I need to do to get my work done? I don't even answer the phone live--each call is passed through an answering machine. I don't have a cell phone and I hope never to get one. Some people post maybe three interesting things in a week, and others let the world know each day that they woke up and had breakfast, showered, had lunch, etc... I don't follow those. It could also be useful to share experiences while on vacation or at a convention. I also socialize as little as I can manage, and luckily, that's very little. I'm not really very interested in people in general--I'm much more interested in ideas. I am aware that a lot of people love receiving little bits of info, I just generally find it insubstantial. And I know a lot of people love to socialize. I know a lot of people actually care what others are doing minute by minute. And I love technology, but this kind of thing is not for me. Fran Lavolta Press http://www.lavoltapress.com ___ h-costume mailing list h-costume@mail.indra.com http://mail.indra.com/mailman/listinfo/h-costume
Re: [h-cost] Bowing to the inevitable
I don't see your general dislike of blogs as a problem. Some people do other things than what blogs are good for. No problem at all. I like information to be really in-depth, and that is often impossible with a blog. Public diaries are not my thing, reading them or writing them. I don't understand why people want to make their daily lives public. It's not that I do anything especially embarrassing. It's just that I don't see why anyone other than close friends would be interested in most of the stuff that gets published in the average on-line diary. Doesn't anyone ever want privacy? I just joined another online group on somebody's recommendation (they were raving about it). I spent a couple of hours poking around their site and found only two things that interested me, out of the tens of thousands of things on there. That's the other problem with the net. There's a lot of stuff, but it's unedited, unorganized stuff of all levels of quality. People seem to feel the need to just say _something_, anything, all the time. And to post pictures of it. Best, Fran Lavolta Press http://www.lavoltpress.com ___ h-costume mailing list h-costume@mail.indra.com http://mail.indra.com/mailman/listinfo/h-costume
Re: [h-cost] PhD programs in costume history
annbw...@aol.com wrote: I know there are people who disagree, but, just as I think organic chemistry is necessary for pre-med students (and not just a flunk-out course, as I once heard someone describe it), I think a knowledge of textile chemistry is a real asset, if not an outright necessity, for students of historic costume. A knowledge of fibers, yarns, fabrics, dyes, and other finishes can only enhance your knowlege. Considering that modern technology has considerably affected fibers, dyes, and finishes, how useful is a modern course on same to someone only interested in historic costume? I am aware that even natural dyes, etc. have not been the same everywhere and everywhen. But if a modern course is largely devoted to synthetic fibers and the dyes for them, and modern processes, preparing students for practical careers in modern factories, how useful is it to the historian? My sister-in-law got a PhD in textile technology and then spent years as a successful manager in modern factories. She knows absolutely zip about period processes. She doesn't even understand how home sewers do things, just how factories do them. Fran Lavolta Press New book on 1820s clothing! http://www.lavoltapress.com ___ h-costume mailing list h-costume@mail.indra.com http://mail.indra.com/mailman/listinfo/h-costume
Re: [h-cost] PhD programs in costume history
And anyone who's had an antique silk shatter in their hands would benefit from an understanding of silk post-processing. Of course, but my point is, do they teach you about _antique_ silk processing in such programs? My sister-in-law certainly got no historical education--they gave her practical information that would enable her to get a good job in a modern factory. I certainly think, since many topics are fascinating, that the student has to made a decision as to whether they are going to graduate school strictly because they enjoy learning, or because they need the degree for a job after graduation; and that the courses they take should be chosen with that goal in mind. Fran Lavolta Press New book on 1820s clothing! http://www.lavoltapress.com ___ h-costume mailing list h-costume@mail.indra.com http://mail.indra.com/mailman/listinfo/h-costume
Re: [h-cost] PhD programs in costume history
Fibers are fibers--the natural fibers haven't changed--they are still chemically the same. Fabric structures, also, are, for the most part the same--weaving, knitting (even knitting machines go back quite a way in history), netting, felting. Even though my degree is in history, I took most of the courses in a university textile arts program, as well as most of the ones in two university clothing design programs (ready-to-wear and couture, respectively). As well as having studied costume history, reproduced historic costume, and collected antique clothing for over 35 years. I even do dyeing. Although it's not the main interest of my readers, I was so interested in the material on 1820s dyeing technology that I discovered, that I inserted some of it into _The Lady's Stratagem_. I've mostly been using Procion dyes, but my interest in natural dyeing was renewed (I dropped it after I finished taking textile arts) and I started to collect more old manuals on it. So yes, Ann, I have long known that plain weave is still plain weave, that stocking frames have a venerable history, etc. And I am sure that some textile technology programs are not designed entirely or mostly to cater to the student who wants a job in a modern factory. On the other hand, some programs apparently _do_. Therefore my suggestion is merely, that the student find the program tailored to his or her interests, both in terms of what he/she studies and his/her career goals--what he/she intends to do with the degree. College is a lot of fun, and if I had my way I'd be taking a course or two all the time, all my life. As it is, I have to settle for reading--which, at least, is also one of my favorite ways to learn. (In many ways, for many subjects, I personally find self-study preferable to classes.) The fact is, a degree is time consuming, and increasingly expensive. Therefore, it's a luxury to get one that does not lead to a paying career or to take time off from a paying career to get one. Even for the enjoyment aspect: When I was taking the series of courses in pattern design, etc. for ready-to-wear, I learned a lot. I produced historically inspired designs for every project, since that was my interest. (My goal was to produce historically inspired designs I could wear every day, I wasn't doing reenactment.) However, since that was not the goal of the program, I endured constant criticism, in particular from one instructor who was entirely unsympathetic to my tastes. And vice versa. I became fed up with her constant exhortations to imitate everyone else who was commercially successful, instead of trying to do something original. Pretty soon I let those exhortations go in one ear and out the other. I stuck with the program, I gained a great deal of valuable information, and I still use it regularly. But in retrospect, if I had been going to college to major in garment design, I'd have chosen another college. The instructors in my couture program, at a different college, were more sympathetic. For someone interested in old technology, a textile arts program--which in my experience focuses on hand weaving, spinning, and various other hand-done fiber-related techniques--might be a better choice, if the degree goal is fun and personal learning rather than a paying career. I am not, by any means, saying it is wrong to get a degree merely for personal learning and enjoyment. I'm just saying that it is a luxury the student should carefully consider from a career standpoint. Fran Lavolta Press New book on 1820s clothing! http://www.lavoltapress.com And while you are correct that SOME modern dyes are different, we learned about the basics, too, like indigo. In fact, I did my dissertation on the transition from natural to synthetic dyes in the mid-19th century. I had to know and understand where natural dyes came from and how they worked as a background for the early development of synthetic dyes. Not all programs are designed solely to prepare people for the modern textile industry. Ann Wass ___ h-costume mailing list h-costume@mail.indra.com http://mail.indra.com/mailman/listinfo/h-costume ___ h-costume mailing list h-costume@mail.indra.com http://mail.indra.com/mailman/listinfo/h-costume
[h-cost] OT: Victorian style lamp shades
You know, the modern version of same. I have a large repro shade I bought about 20 years ago. The more or less tulip shaped wire frame was new then, and it's still in great shape. The silk it was covered with (even though the shade is a repro) is shattering badly. It strikes me that getting the material correctly stretched over the frame would take practice and I don't really have time to practice. Does anyone on h-costume cover lamp shades? Does anyone know how hard it is? I'd rather have someone experienced do it, but if I end up having to do it I'd like to know what is involved. Thanks, Fran Lavolta Press Books on making historic clothing http://www.lavoltapress.com ___ h-costume mailing list h-costume@mail.indra.com http://mail.indra.com/mailman/listinfo/h-costume
Re: [h-cost] OT: Victorian style lamp shades
Sharon Collier wrote: If you use something like silk chiffon, it stretches enough to give some leeway. Can you remove what's left of your shade to use as a pattern? One of the panels is more or less intact, so yes. The pattern is not really the issue, but getting the material onto the frame with the correct tension. Do you stretch out the whole piece, pin or baste it like crazy, and then hand sew it onto the wire all around? Or sew one side and then stretch the material across to sew the other side? This is a huge shade, so the frame is not convenient to hold. Fran ___ h-costume mailing list h-costume@mail.indra.com http://mail.indra.com/mailman/listinfo/h-costume
Re: [h-cost] OT: Victorian style lamp shades
They covered each panel separately. Looks like they first wrapped the wire of the frame with narrow twill tape, in a spiral. I don't see any reason to re-do that. Then they probably sewed on the panels from the outside--not much stitching is seen from the inside, though some is, and it's hand overcasting, with a fair amount of space between stitches. All the joins are covered on the outside with upholstery gimp, which looks like it was glued on. I assume you'd need a heat-resistant glue of some kind. It's not clear whether the fringe around the bottom was sewed on or glued on, as those joins also are covered with upholstery gimp. I could put the frame on a table to work on it, but that still does not address the problem of getting the tension on the material right. There are two layers. The inner layer is a thin satin-weave silk in cream color, the outer layer is silk chiffon. I think they glued the layers together before sewing them on, because they're still stuck together even at the silk splits. For all I know, the glue is what is making the silk shatter, though it could well be 20 years of exposure to heat. Thanks, Fran Lavolta Press Books on making historic clothing http://www.lavoltapress.com e...@huskers.unl.edu wrote: Can you get any clues from what's left? (Were the pieces seamed together first, and then stitched around the top and bottom? Or was every other panel stitched to the frame, and then every *other* other panel stitched to the first set?) It sounds like you'll need a skill set similar to wire-and-buckram hatmaking (which may help you track down the right person for the job). ___ h-costume mailing list h-costume@mail.indra.com http://mail.indra.com/mailman/listinfo/h-costume
Re: [h-cost] OT: Victorian style lamp shades
Thanks! Questions: Why not baste after pinning? This shade has two layers of material, do you use two layers? I take it you yourself sew on the gimp and fringe rather than gluing them? When I took an oil painting class in college, we learned to stretch canvas. Instead of fastening down one side and then the next, we stretched the middles of all four sides, tacked them, and moved around the frame that way (not focusing on any one side at a time) till it was all fastened down. Is that how you get the material evenly stretched over the lampshade sections? The big sections of the frame curve in and out (are concave and convex, tulip petal shape). I think the person who made this shade glued the layers of material together in places to keep the layers together at the concave indents. Am I right, and was this necessary? Thanks a lot, Fran Lavolta Press http://www.lavoltapress.com Paul and Charlene wrote: Fran, The wires are covered with twill tape and that is what you pin the fabric to. Cut the seam allowances with extra fabric according to the grain line of the original remaining panel. When I do it I have pins lined up all the way along the twill tape maybe 1/2 apart--adjusting as you go. I don't use glue for any part of the frame. It is rather prickly avoiding all those pins but it gets better as you sew along. Charlene Roberts ___ h-costume mailing list h-costume@mail.indra.com http://mail.indra.com/mailman/listinfo/h-costume ___ h-costume mailing list h-costume@mail.indra.com http://mail.indra.com/mailman/listinfo/h-costume
Re: [h-cost] OT: Victorian style lamp shades
The lining goes on first bringing the seam to the front and whipstitching it to the tape covered wires. So to answer your question I get it evenly stretched over the frame sections by WORKING those pins until I am satisfied. Most sections are cut on the bias which helps. This is really useful. So you sew on the lining, then the outer material? One more question: Do you actually cut pattern pieces? Or do you drape the sections, just cutting a piece of roughly the right size, stretching it, and then trimming off the excess? The latter seems like the easier course to me, but I haven't done this before. I agree that glue is well, tacky. I'm torn between an exciting new craft and not wanting to spend the time. I don't think I'd go so far as to bead fringe. I'd look for a beaded fringe at an upholstery/drapery supply place, or maybe a silky fringe. One thing I have considered is a deep household-linens type crocheted edging, dyed to coordinate with the shade and put on fairly flat, not ruffled to death. Fran Lavolta Press http://www.lavoltapress.com ___ h-costume mailing list h-costume@mail.indra.com http://mail.indra.com/mailman/listinfo/h-costume
Re: [h-cost] OT: Victorian style lamp shades
Thanks for all your help! This looks like a good way to use up remnants from projects. I have some devore velvet around that I am currently thinking of using, with beaded fringe. Fran Lavolta Press http://www.lavoltapress.com ___ h-costume mailing list h-costume@mail.indra.com http://mail.indra.com/mailman/listinfo/h-costume
Re: [h-cost] Advice on Web Presence
I think the first questions are, what is your specific purpose/goal in setting up this website, blog, whatever? How big do you want it to be? How often do you plan to revise it? Do you want participation from other people, and if so what kind? Fran Lavolta Press Books of historic clothing patterns http://www.lavoltapress.com Jane Pease wrote: Here I come meandering along behind the times as usual, but I have been thinking that it is time to have a costume presence on the web, snip ___ h-costume mailing list h-costume@mail.indra.com http://mail.indra.com/mailman/listinfo/h-costume
Re: [h-cost] Steampunk ideas
I am not quite sure what you are aiming for, since steampunk is a kind of fantasy. But, some suggestions for the late 19th century. Obviously there were different kinds of sports--swimming, riding, and so on--that required distinctive clothes: A riding habit bodice with accessories was instantly recognizable as such. However, for general sporty wear, such as brisk walking, shooting, or even mountain climbing, the attire was often a walking skirt and bodice, as plain as the era would allow--but when everything was worn with bustles and had drapery, likewise with walking skirts. The bodices worn for such outfits were fairly simple, but often a vest or vest front/faux vest was allowable. For a military look, military arrangements of rows of braid across the front of the bodice (generally without any vest in this case) were popular in the 1880s. Hope this helps. Fran Lavolta Press Books of historic clothing patterns http://www.lavoltapress.com Regina Voorhes wrote: I am looking for a pattern, available in plus sizes, for a military-looking Steampunk outfit. I plan to do a sporting-type suit, snip ___ h-costume mailing list h-costume@mail.indra.com http://mail.indra.com/mailman/listinfo/h-costume
Re: [h-cost] gift suggestion
Lorina, Didn't you have a new book on textile definitions coming out? Fran Lavolta Press Books of historic clothing patterns http://www.lavoltapress.com Five Rivers Chapmanry wrote: While you're looking for gifts for the costumer, researcher or lover of trivia on your list, snip ___ h-costume mailing list h-costume@mail.indra.com http://mail.indra.com/mailman/listinfo/h-costume
Re: [h-cost] Mysterious spots on cotton
Why bother with dye remover? Personally, I'd just dye the fabric some color darker than the spots. Burgundy or purple sounds ideal. Fran Lavolta Press Books on historic costuming http://www.lavoltapress.com Elena House wrote: Well, this is a first for me... I washed some brand new natural colored cotton coutil, and burgundy spots popped up all over it. Looks like some dye powder got on it before it was shipped to me, and now I'm stuck wondering: does dye remover weaken cotton? snip I was planning to dye this fabric anyway, so I don't mind if it changes colors on me... -E House ___ h-costume mailing list h-costume@mail.indra.com http://mail.indra.com/mailman/listinfo/h-costume ___ h-costume mailing list h-costume@mail.indra.com http://mail.indra.com/mailman/listinfo/h-costume
Re: [h-cost] Mysterious spots on cotton
Elena House wrote: I would do that in other cases, but this is for a client--they want a light peachy-tan color, so I've got to lighten up the spots somehow! I just emailed the seller (Lost Coast) in the hopes that they can at least tell me what the spots ARE... Or else maybe replace the flawed fabric with one guaranteed not break out in spots? Fran Lavolta Press http://www.lavoltapress.com ___ h-costume mailing list h-costume@mail.indra.com http://mail.indra.com/mailman/listinfo/h-costume
Re: [h-cost] Speaking of Christmas gifts...
Is the pattern available on paper? I like the shoe bag. It's nice to see products manufactured in the US for a change. The economy could use it. Fran Lavolta Press Books on historic costume--suitable for Christmas gifts! http://www.lavoltapress.com Martha Kelly wrote: The Shippensburg Fashion Archives and Museum has a really nifty tote bag (uh, if I do say so myself since I designed it) for sale on their web site. snip ___ h-costume mailing list h-costume@mail.indra.com http://mail.indra.com/mailman/listinfo/h-costume
Re: [h-cost] Shippensburg tote bag
When we have some of these patterns ready to put on the website, you KNOW I'll be telling you about it! Great, I look forward to it! Fran Lavolta Press http://www.lavoltapress.com ___ h-costume mailing list h-costume@mail.indra.com http://mail.indra.com/mailman/listinfo/h-costume
Re: [h-cost] stiffen agent
I get emails with subjects like that every day . . . only it's not interfacings they want to sell me. The spammers have figured out that certain words are triggers so they try for the obscurely worded but identifiable meaning. Fran Lavolta Press Books on making historic clothing http://www.lavoltapress.com Kimiko Small wrote: Try thin stiff paper. I recall that's what some extant 16th century garments have as their backings on the appliques of silk. Kimiko Small http://www.kimiko1.com ___ h-costume mailing list h-costume@mail.indra.com http://mail.indra.com/mailman/listinfo/h-costume
Re: [h-cost] Cristmas squee!
My husband's gifts to me included Dawn Luckham's Regency stays pattern, a book titled _Women, Production, and Patriarchy in Late Medieval Cities_ (which contains information on textile production), and a bottle of Ralph Lauren Notorious perfume (plus a bunch of different perfume samples). Fran Lavolta Press Books on historic clothing http://www.lavoltapress.com susan...@juno.com wrote: That is wonderful! I have Costume in Detail checked out from the library right now and it is definitely on my want list. My hubby gave me the Madeleine Vionnet book by Betty Kirke. I, too, am burbling with delight. Yeah for husbands who listen! Susan snip ___ h-costume mailing list h-costume@mail.indra.com http://mail.indra.com/mailman/listinfo/h-costume
Re: [h-cost] Movie Recommendation from a Spy
I think that honor belongs to Mark Twain (A Connecticut Yankee in King Arthur's Court). Fran Lavolta Press New book on 1820s clothing! http://www.lavoltapress.com On 12/27/2009 6:03 PM, Chiara Francesca wrote: Having read SH books I still firmly believe that Sir Arthur Conan Doyle is one of the leaders of Steam Punk before we named it. :) ___ h-costume mailing list h-costume@mail.indra.com http://mail.indra.com/mailman/listinfo/h-costume
[h-cost] Online dictionary of colors with color swatches
List members may find this interesting: http://www.anthus.com/Colors/NBS.html It doesn't have every historical color, and the swatches of course depend to some extent on your monitor. Still, it contains some useful information. Fran Lavolta Press Books on making historic clothing http://www.lavoltapress.com ___ h-costume mailing list h-costume@mail.indra.com http://mail.indra.com/mailman/listinfo/h-costume
Re: [h-cost] Online dictionary of colors with color swatches
On 1/1/2010 12:39 PM, Marjorie Wilser wrote: Then there's the Pantone system for printing. Trouble is, they change the colors according to popularity, and the swatch books are expensive. Pantone doesn't change the colors as far as I know, or at least not unless it's over a long time frame. The colors are only numbered, no names. Pantone is not a guide to historical color names, or any other kind of color names. The whole point is that you and the printer each have a Pantone book or fan. You say you want color #X on the cover, and that's what you get. You don't have to specify the edition of the Pantone book or fan. Fran Lavolta Press Books on making historic clothing http://www.lavoltapress.com ___ h-costume mailing list h-costume@mail.indra.com http://mail.indra.com/mailman/listinfo/h-costume
Re: [h-cost] Online dictionary of colors with color swatches
Fran is correct regarding Pantone, however the books are expensive and recommended to be replaced every year. It was developed specifically for the printing industry — there are some basic ink colors that are mixed in various combinations to get the colors in the book. There have been colors added, and particularly when a company uses a new color and wants it consistent for their corporate identity. Because, of course, they can't use one of the colors that Pantone already has in the book. Your comments are erroneous in some respects, but as this is not a list on color printing and the Pantone system, I suggest that anyone who wants information on offset printing and color proofs for it consult sources on book production. Besides the historic color names, how is this useful to h-costume?\ Is there something wrong with suggesting a link to an interesting source for color information? And letting h-costume members--if they wish--take a few minutes to see if it is useful to them in any way? If you think the site linked to is erroneous or incomplete, or you want material added to it, I suggest that you contact the website owners. I am not responsible for the content of their site. If you want a website specifically oriented toward colors for fabric printing, or historic costume, I'd advise you to search the web for it and post a link. I'm sure we'll all be glad to see it. Fran Lavolta Press Books on making historic clothing http://www.lavoltapress.com ___ h-costume mailing list h-costume@mail.indra.com http://mail.indra.com/mailman/listinfo/h-costume
Re: [h-cost] Online dictionary of colors with color swatches
It's a matter of professional tools vs the need for them, and how precise does a costumer want to be with color. Design studios and printers may well replace their pantone books every year. These days many projects do colors with a CMYK build (instead of custom mixed ink), and the CMYK can vary on press. When dealing with corporate identity colors, it's an expensive mistake to have to reprint. Other projects won't be as persnickety, so a slight color shift due to aging or fading in the swatchbook won't have an impact. I know all that, Carol. I HAVE done production work for 15 years, and usually the colors are CMYK. You seem to be talking more about spot colors, and everyone knows that spot color does not always correspond 100% to CMYK. Pantone has a special spot-to-color swatch book to help. Personally, for a corporate logo, I'd just use spot color. I've had this discussion with a fair number of other people who do production work. My point is that the swatchbooks DON'T fade perceptibly for several years if well kept. I've compared. Other people have compared. Pantone says you need to replace them every year but then, Pantone is the party who sells them. But hey, I'm not in the mood to play one-upmanship games. Fran Lavolta Press http://www.lavoltapress.com ___ h-costume mailing list h-costume@mail.indra.com http://mail.indra.com/mailman/listinfo/h-costume
Re: [h-cost] Online dictionary of colors with color swatches
Fine with me. I have two books to lay out and proof. I was just throwing out a URL I ran across when I was researching something. Fran Lavolta Press http://www.lavoltapress.com On 1/2/2010 11:05 AM, Kimiko Small wrote: Then may I suggest we drop this topic asap? Please? Kimiko ___ h-costume mailing list h-costume@mail.indra.com http://mail.indra.com/mailman/listinfo/h-costume
Re: [h-cost] Online dictionary of colors with color swatches
Sounds like a fine resolution for the new year. You're the one who said my comments were erroneous and that people should go elsewhere for information. Maybe it's Mercury Retrograde having a go at us, because I thought it was possible to have a discussion on the topic. I merely posted a URL. If you want to point out a dozen reasons why it's useless and a bad URL . . . And if you want to establish you're a printing expert so you can find a new job, this is not the best list to do it on. Fran ___ h-costume mailing list h-costume@mail.indra.com http://mail.indra.com/mailman/listinfo/h-costume
[h-cost] Invisible stripes
I think I know what this means, but can anyone point me to an official definition? I've already been through umpteen textile dictionaries, including ones produced by various mills. Fran Lavolta Press http://www.lavoltapress.com ___ h-costume mailing list h-costume@mail.indra.com http://mail.indra.com/mailman/listinfo/h-costume
[h-cost] Silk source
Right now I am looking at this one: http://www.decorativesilk.com/scripts/prodList.asp?idCategory=45 Fran Lavolta Press http://www.lavoltapress.com ___ h-costume mailing list h-costume@mail.indra.com http://mail.indra.com/mailman/listinfo/h-costume
Re: [h-cost] Silk source
I always buy the material, then I figure out what to do with it. My question is, this kind of silk is often designed for draperies and may be too large for the human body. I like the antique gold, but I am wondering how wide that stripe is. They do seem to have swatches. Some of their apparel fabrics are ugly, though. Fran Lavolta Press Books on historic clothing http://www.lavoltapress.com What lovely fabrics! What are you planning to make? Joan Jurancich joa...@surewest.net ___ h-costume mailing list h-costume@mail.indra.com http://mail.indra.com/mailman/listinfo/h-costume ___ h-costume mailing list h-costume@mail.indra.com http://mail.indra.com/mailman/listinfo/h-costume
Re: [h-cost] recreating a regency bonnet cap.
but not nails. For a really neat site on historic and other measurements, check out mathematician Russ Rowlett's Dictionary of Units of Measurement: http://www.unc.edu/~rowlett/units/ which even defines things like gnat's eye. Fran Books on historic clothing Including _The Lady's Stratagem: A Repository of 1820s Directions for the Toilet, Mantua-Making, Stay-Making, Millinery Etiquette_ Which includes a good selection of cap patterns and cap-making instructions http://www.lavoltapress.com ___ h-costume mailing list h-costume@mail.indra.com http://mail.indra.com/mailman/listinfo/h-costume
[h-cost] 100 percent silk velvet
I ran across this page when looking for embroidered silks (which these are not). http://www.anjooriansilks.com/gallery/detail.asp?iCat=154iPic=5313 If you have any questions about the fiber, etc., please contact the website owners (not me). Fran Lavolta Press Books on historic clothing, including The Lady's Stratagem: A Repository of 1820s Instructions for the Toilet, Mantua-Making, Stay-Making, Millinery etiquette www.lavoltapress.com ___ h-costume mailing list h-costume@mail.indra.com http://mail.indra.com/mailman/listinfo/h-costume
Re: [h-cost] Silk velvet
If they will sell it to you white so you can dye it yourself, I have no problem with doing that. Fran Lavolta Press Books on making historic clothing http://www.lavoltapress.com ___ h-costume mailing list h-costume@mail.indra.com http://mail.indra.com/mailman/listinfo/h-costume
Re: [h-cost] Trade Journals
Are there other trade journals that I should be looking for pre-1970? Tons. I run across them a lot looking for dressmaking and tailoring trade journals with patterns, which is usually what I stick to in terms of trade journals. Though lately I've started collecting more old textile dictionaries. I've always collected some, but I've recently discovered the kind textile mills published as combined marketing and customer education. I usually only collect pre-1930 stuff, but I bought a very nice quality and reasonably large 1940s mill textile dictionary recently. Not a trade journal, I know, just not a consumer publication. Anyway, as for non-pattern, post-1930 (or even pre-1930) trade journals--it's hard to come up with names, since I haven't been looking specifically for them. A fair number are specialty--motoring clothes, furs, hosiery, haberdashery, umbrellas, wool textile manufacture, you get the idea. You need to come up with a set of relevant keywords to search on, and assemble yourself a list of titles as you discover single issues, so you can look for more of that publication. Also, you are correct in that many are published by some trade organization, so you need to research the names of organizations. Fran Lavolta Press Books on historic clothing http://www.lavoltapress.com ___ h-costume mailing list h-costume@mail.indra.com http://mail.indra.com/mailman/listinfo/h-costume
Re: [h-cost] Silk velvet
I have a front load washer so no washer dyeing for me. That's why I always have a top-loading one. Feel free to purchase from them if you want. I was just sharing my experience. I emailed to ask how much they'd charge for undyed velvet. What did they charge you per yard? If you get anything dyed in future: My advice is go to the hardware store, get two copies of a paint chip in the desired color, send them one, and keep the other. Tell them the dye job has to closely match the paint chip, and you'll only pay half down before they start work and the other half after you accept the job. Reserve the right to get them to redo the job if it does not match the paint chip closely enough. Have them send a swatch of the dyed velvet before they send the whole thing. If it's not close enough to the paint chip, have them redo it and send you another swatch. Put all this in a contract both of you sign before you pay them anything. Otherwise, you will probably not get exactly what you want, they'll refuse you a refund, you'll think they're rude, and everyone will be dissatisfied. Fran Lavolta Press Books on historic clothing http://www.lavoltapress.com ___ h-costume mailing list h-costume@mail.indra.com http://mail.indra.com/mailman/listinfo/h-costume
Re: [h-cost] 100 percent silk velvet
On 1/17/2010 12:52 AM, Sharon Collier wrote: I just want one of every color they show there. Yummy! They emailed me to say they want $75/yard undyed, which I suppose is not atypical for silk velvet. This looks like the chiffon velvet popular in the 1920s. That's the kind of style I'd use it for, and it wouldn't require tons of yardage. Fran Lavolta Press Books on historic clothing http://www.lavoltapress.com ___ h-costume mailing list h-costume@mail.indra.com http://mail.indra.com/mailman/listinfo/h-costume
Re: [h-cost] Silk velvet
You mean these guys? http://www.goldendor.com/retail_store.html Fran Lavolta Press http://www.lavoltapress.com On 1/17/2010 5:11 PM, Chiara Francesca wrote: Silk d'Or has a private bridal shop that they put out the overflow into that little back room that has minimal lighting sometimes. That is where some of us have found the silk velvet. And I too have mine sitting in a box for um ... too many years. :D ___ h-costume mailing list h-costume@mail.indra.com http://mail.indra.com/mailman/listinfo/h-costume
[h-cost] More cotton velvet sources
http://www.srfabrics.com/cottons/velvet.htm http://www.ginnysfinefabrics.com/Fabrics/CordandCotton/CottonVelvet.html You could also ask for swatches from http://www.britexfabrics.com Britex used to have a good selection of 100% cotton velvet, though I have not been there in a awhile. The photos of part of their floors are an understatement. The place is absolutely packed with high-end fabrics. Meanwhile, I've just become enmeshed in browsing fabric.com, though I've only found a couple of cotton velvets. Fran ___ h-costume mailing list h-costume@mail.indra.com http://mail.indra.com/mailman/listinfo/h-costume
Re: [h-cost] where has all the velvet gone? (rant)
I'm quite taken with the olive green embossed velveteen. Anyone know how heavy it is? Fran Lavolta Press http://www.lavoltapress.com On 1/19/2010 12:25 PM, cw15147-hcos...@yahoo.com wrote: Renaissance Fabrics (online only) regularly carries cotton velveteen: http://www.renaissancefabrics.net/cgi-bin/showAll.cgi?section=V Of course, colors are limited, but if you want something specific, send owner Diana an email, she might be able to find it for you. Claudine ___ h-costume mailing list h-costume@mail.indra.com http://mail.indra.com/mailman/listinfo/h-costume ___ h-costume mailing list h-costume@mail.indra.com http://mail.indra.com/mailman/listinfo/h-costume
Re: [h-cost] where has all the velvet gone? (rant)
Great. That's what I wanted to know. That would be a nice fabric for 1880s and 1920s, when some Renaissance-inspired fabrics were used. I refrained from listing links I found to some linen velvets because they were all sofa weight. Has anyone ever seen a linen velvet woven for clothing? Fran Lavolta Press http://www.lavoltapress.com On 1/19/2010 12:41 PM, cw15147-hcos...@yahoo.com wrote: I've handled that fabric. It's medium-ish, not super heavy. I don't think it was meant for, say, drapes, at least not without a backing. Claudine - Original Message From: Lavolta Pressf...@lavoltapress.com To: Historical Costumeh-cost...@indra.com Sent: Tue, January 19, 2010 12:36:15 PM Subject: Re: [h-cost] where has all the velvet gone? (rant) I'm quite taken with the olive green embossed velveteen. Anyone know how heavy it is? Fran Lavolta Press http://www.lavoltapress.com On 1/19/2010 12:25 PM, cw15147-hcos...@yahoo.com wrote: Renaissance Fabrics (online only) regularly carries cotton velveteen: Of course, colors are limited, but if you want something specific, send owner Diana an email, she might be able to find it for you. Claudine ___ h-costume mailing list h-costume@mail.indra.com http://mail.indra.com/mailman/listinfo/h-costume ___ h-costume mailing list h-costume@mail.indra.com http://mail.indra.com/mailman/listinfo/h-costume ___ h-costume mailing list h-costume@mail.indra.com http://mail.indra.com/mailman/listinfo/h-costume ___ h-costume mailing list h-costume@mail.indra.com http://mail.indra.com/mailman/listinfo/h-costume
Re: [h-cost] where has all the velvet gone? (rant)
I'd suggest a net search for linen velvet. You will find it. But it is incredibly expensive. It makes 100% silk velvet look cheap. Fran Lavolta Press http://www.lavoltapress.com On 1/19/2010 1:18 PM, cw15147-hcos...@yahoo.com wrote: Ditto. I've never heard of such a thing. Even if it's couch weight, it may be useful for something costume-related. Claudine - Original Message From: Ginni Morganginni.mor...@doj.ca.gov To: Historical Costumeh-cost...@indra.com Sent: Tue, January 19, 2010 1:08:01 PM Subject: Re: [h-cost] where has all the velvet gone? (rant) Fran Could you please send me the links for the linen velvet? I'm very interested in it. Ginni Morgan Sacramento, CA Lavolta Press 1/19/10 12:48 PM Great. That's what I wanted to know. That would be a nice fabric for 1880s and 1920s, when some Renaissance-inspired fabrics were used. I refrained from listing links I found to some linen velvets because they were all sofa weight. Has anyone ever seen a linen velvet woven for clothing? Fran Lavolta Press http://www.lavoltapress.com ___ h-costume mailing list h-costume@mail.indra.com http://mail.indra.com/mailman/listinfo/h-costume ___ h-costume mailing list h-costume@mail.indra.com http://mail.indra.com/mailman/listinfo/h-costume
Re: [h-cost] The term hennin
By the way, has anyone looked into whether hennin is a personal name? Someone prominent who wore the head-dress? Or maybe some common first name or nickname (the way moll got associated with prostitutes)? Or a place name--somewhere the head-dresses or materials used to make them were made? Fran Lavolta Press http://www.lavoltapress.com What's bothering me here is, why should these headdresses be associated with roosters? Roosters are male, and these are female fashions. Yes, I know a cock has a comb on its head but still, this seems to be a stretch. Even if it's an insult, it seems to me that there should be some kind of rationale behind the term and that should be recognizable. Fran Lavolta Press http://www.lavoltapress.com ___ h-costume mailing list h-costume@mail.indra.com http://mail.indra.com/mailman/listinfo/h-costume ___ h-costume mailing list h-costume@mail.indra.com http://mail.indra.com/mailman/listinfo/h-costume
Re: [h-cost] mending by embroidery
On 1/26/2010 8:41 PM, Käthe Barrows wrote: Question: are?there any historical ?references to this method in other times? Hippies didn't care if the mends showed, where Victorians/Edwardians did. So earlier mends were as invisible as the craft of the seamstress could produce. I've put directions for 19th-century mending techniques in some of my books. Mending techniques for linens run to darning. On surviving examples of underlinen and table linen, the darns are usually (not always) neat, but by no means invisible. Linens too damaged to darn were patched, neatly but not invisibly, and the material cut away underneath. The more expensive the article, the more invisible the mending technique. Fine lace was mended with lace-making techniques, and fine cashmere shawls were mended with reweaving techniques imitating the original weave. Dress materials were often recycled. The stained and worn parts were often discarded, but sometimes some had to be used and were covered over. One method for doing so was beading, made even more economical by recycling beads saved from damaged bead trimmings. Another method was covering the bad parts with multiple rows of presumably inexpensive braid. Flounces and ruffles sometimes covered bad material on skirts. The difference between the Victorian/Edwardian and 1960s/1970s philosophies, is that for the Victorians and Edwardians it was routine, and for the hippies it was Look, I'm recycling! If the Victorians and Edwardians used trimming to cover bad material, they made sure to arrange the material where trimming could logically be located. The hippies put the trimming anywhere. Fran Lavolta Press Books on historic clothing http://www.lavoltapress ___ h-costume mailing list h-costume@mail.indra.com http://mail.indra.com/mailman/listinfo/h-costume
[h-cost] Anyone familiar with these books on 15th-century braiding?
http://www.et-tu.com/whp/nonfiction.htm Fran Lavolta Press Books on historic clothing http://www.lavoltapress.com ___ h-costume mailing list h-costume@mail.indra.com http://mail.indra.com/mailman/listinfo/h-costume
Re: [h-cost] Edwardian pattern question
Thompson's is an apportioning scale system (not an inch measure system). I have a set of their scales and a stack of their publications. Their strategy was to give you some fashion plates and some diagrams of basic components, and let you decide how to put the outfit together. Fran Lavolta Press http://www.lavoltapress.com On 2/9/2010 7:52 PM, Ann Catelli wrote: Thompson's Universal System is available at the Costumer's Manifesto:http://www.costumes.org/history/galleryimages/c1899thompsonssystem/index.htm I don't know what the Kliots used for their version. Ann in CT --- On Tue, 2/9/10, Laurie Taylorcostume...@mazarineblue.com wrote: Does anyone have Garment Patterns for the Edwardian Lady by Mrs. Thompson, ed. by Jules Kaethe Kliot? If so, I'd love to have your thoughts on the cover outfit of that book. I can see a likely pattern for the skirt within the patterns in the book, but I'm not so sure about the jacket, and it is the jacket that I really love. I can probably figure something out for it, if not from this book, then from other sources, but I wanted to make sure first that I am not just overlooking something obvious in the book. Laurie Taylor ___ h-costume mailing list h-costume@mail.indra.com http://mail.indra.com/mailman/listinfo/h-costume ___ h-costume mailing list h-costume@mail.indra.com http://mail.indra.com/mailman/listinfo/h-costume
Re: [h-cost] Question: Regency trains?
And, as an aside, if making a formal gown for evening, be sure to differentiate between 'ball dress' and 'evening wear.' I have yet to find an image of a post-1810 ball gown that has a train. Up to and around 1810 there are plenty of 'full dress' or 'evening wear' or 'opera dress' gowns that do, but ball gowns, no. Ball dress: http://www.uvm.edu/~hag/1800train/1809-wu-ackermann-balldress.png Evening full dress: http://www.uvm.edu/~hag/1800train/1809-white-washington.jpg Generally, I agree with you that early 19th-century ball gowns were often shorter than other evening dresses. However, Jane Austen does interestingly say in _Northanger Abbey_ that Catherine and her friend Isabella called each other by their Christian name, were always arm in arm when they walked, pinned up each other's train for the dance, and were not to be divided in the set. Fran Lavolta Press Books on historic clothing, including: The Lady's Stratagem: A Repository of 1820s Directions for the Toilet, Manuta-Making, Stay-Making, Millinery Etiquette http://www.lavoltapress.com ___ h-costume mailing list h-costume@mail.indra.com http://mail.indra.com/mailman/listinfo/h-costume
Re: [h-cost] Piece of vintage baleen stay
Victorian bodices often have baleen stays. You can probably buy a really damaged one off eBay and take out the bones. The bones I have, have all become brittle with age, but if you want baleen, it's pretty easy to find that way. Fran Lavolta Press Books on Historic Clothing http:///www.lavoltapress.com On 3/4/2010 4:10 PM, Judy Mitchell wrote: I know someone in the US who bought a long chunk off ebay. fascinating stuff. No, it wasn't vintage. I don't believe. -Judy Mitchell ___ h-costume mailing list h-costume@mail.indra.com http://mail.indra.com/mailman/listinfo/h-costume
[h-cost] Affordable color guide
For those who want an inexpensive Pantone type guide to communicate with dyers, custom dressmakers, etc.: http://galaxygauge.com/p_col_clz.html http://galaxygauge.com/p_col_cmp.html Fran Lavolta Press Books on historic clothing www.lavoltapress.com ___ h-costume mailing list h-costume@mail.indra.com http://mail.indra.com/mailman/listinfo/h-costume
[h-cost] Medieval Garments Reconstructed: Norse Clothing Patterns
Just ran across this on Amazon: Medieval Garments Reconstructed: Norse Clothing Patterns (Hardcover) ~ Lilli Fransen (Author), Anna Norgard (Author), Else Ostergard (Author), Shelly Nordtorp-Madson (Translator) http://www.amazon.com/exec/obidos/tg/detail/-/8779342981/ref=ord_cart_shr?_encoding=UTF8m=ATVPDKIKX0DERv=glance Fran Lavolta Press Books on historic clothing www.lavoltapress.com ___ h-costume mailing list h-costume@mail.indra.com http://mail.indra.com/mailman/listinfo/h-costume
[h-cost] A strange question
Has goth (clothing and events) basically evolved into steampunk? Fran Lavolta Press http://www.lavoltapress.com ___ h-costume mailing list h-costume@mail.indra.com http://mail.indra.com/mailman/listinfo/h-costume
[h-cost] Museum catalog with photos of early 19th-century clothing
I just received my order from Fred Struthers' spring catalog, which included _Louise Augusta Kaerlighedsbarnet_. It's a nice, rather small book containing color photos of Danish aristocratic and court clothing, both men's and women's. It includes a couple of pattern diagrams reprinted from Norah Waugh's _The Cut of Women's Clothes_. And also, a pattern diagram for an Empire evening gown with multiply puffed sleeves that is not in Norah Waugh, or any other source I can think of offhand (I haven't checked all my Danish museum catalogs, though). The text is in Danish. I don't know if Fred has any left (his website is www.rlshep.com), but if not, this book may be available from other sources. Fran Lavolta Press Books on historic clothing, including The Lady's Stratagem: A Repository of 1820s Directions for the Toilet, Mantua-Making, Stay-Making, Millinery Etiquette www.lavoltapress.com ___ h-costume mailing list h-costume@mail.indra.com http://mail.indra.com/mailman/listinfo/h-costume
[h-cost] Arty recycling of garments
Today I've been hand-sewing cotton lace onto the bottom of an almost-new summer-weight slip-dress I bought off eBay (to replace a flounce that was much too long) and I'm wondering: How many adults are doing arty recycling of garments and linens? By arty I mean more than just buying something second hand and altering it to size. (So my alteration to the bottom of this dress doesn't really count, but it still looks good.) I mean something closer to wearable art, where it looks like you altered the garment in a creative way. Everything I see on this subject looks like it's intended for teenagers and also for beginning sewers. Of course there's nothing wrong with being either a teenager or a beginning sewer. But, are many adults who are experienced sewers doing arty recycling? Or are they just altering garments in a conservative way or just for size? Fran Lavolta Press www.lavoltapress.com ___ h-costume mailing list h-costume@mail.indra.com http://mail.indra.com/mailman/listinfo/h-costume
Re: [h-cost] Arty recycling of garments
Interesting, but I was thinking of something more along the wearable than the conceptual art line. Rebecca: How do you keep the sweaters from just unraveling? Fran Lavolta Press www.lavoltapress.com On 4/21/2010 4:42 PM, Käthe Barrows wrote: I'm wondering: How many adults are doing arty recycling of garments and linens? By arty I mean more than just buying something second hand and altering it to size. Google on Discarded To Divine. It's an example of Altered Couture, another thing to Google on. Discarded to Divine is a yearly fashion show sponsored by the St. Vincent de Paul in San Francisco, for recycling fabric things too trashed for them to be willing to sell. They turn this stuff over to designers who do altered couture, then hold a fashion show, the profits going to some charity they are into. There should be photos from former shows on their site. I am informed this year's show is coming up soon. ___ h-costume mailing list h-costume@mail.indra.com http://mail.indra.com/mailman/listinfo/h-costume
Re: [h-cost] CUTTING KNITS (SWEATERS)
That's classy! Fran On 4/22/2010 7:32 AM, AVCHASE wrote: Grandmother taught me that to change knits machine sew a grossgrain ribbon of the desired length on the line to be cut. Cut below the line. Sew on the outside if a rounded finish is desired, turn and hand hem on the ribs. Sew on the inside for a more casual look. Use for sleeves, armholes, neck, hems, and button closures making sure to use a ribbon for both button holes and button attachments. Hopefully this is useful. Audy in the high boonies of Central Texas PeoplePC Online A better way to Internet http://www.peoplepc.com ___ h-costume mailing list h-costume@mail.indra.com http://mail.indra.com/mailman/listinfo/h-costume ___ h-costume mailing list h-costume@mail.indra.com http://mail.indra.com/mailman/listinfo/h-costume
Re: [h-cost] Arty recycling of garments
I was wondering if you felted them, which seems to be the technique du jour for cutting up sweaters to use as fabric. Fran Lavolta Press www.lavoltapress.com On 4/22/2010 4:55 AM, R Lloyd Mitchell wrote: I use a ziz-zag (two rows) and cut the line between for sweaters or other knitted items. I have become somewhat adept in unpicking high neck/cowls from necklines or other areas where the seam is sewn or applied.? Tedious to be sure, but doable, Kathleen -Original Message- From: Lavolta Pressf...@lavoltapress.com Sent 4/21/2010 9:12:55 PM To: Historical Costumeh-cost...@indra.com Subject: Re: [h-cost] Arty recycling of garmentsInteresting, but I was thinking of something more along the wearable than the conceptual art line. Rebecca: How do you keep the sweaters from just unraveling? Fran Lavolta Press www.lavoltapress.com On 4/21/2010 4:42 PM, K?the Barrows wrote: I'm wondering: How many adults are doing arty recycling of garments and linens? By arty I mean more than just buying something second hand and altering it to size. Google on Discarded To Divine. It's an example of Altered Couture, another thing to Google on. Discarded to Divine is a yearly fashion show sponsored by the St. Vincent de Paul in San Francisco, for recycling fabric things too trashed for them to be willing to sell. They turn this stuff over to designers who do altered couture, then hold a fashion show, the profits going to some charity they are into. There should be photos from former shows on their site. I am informed this year's show is coming up soon. ___ h-costume mailing list h-costume@mail.indra.com http://mail.indra.com/mailman/listinfo/h-costume ___ h-costume mailing list h-costume@mail.indra.com http://mail.indra.com/mailman/listinfo/h-costume ___ h-costume mailing list h-costume@mail.indra.com http://mail.indra.com/mailman/listinfo/h-costume
Re: [h-cost] Subject: Arty recycling of garments-Recycled Jacket
Recycling garments into others was routine long before the 1930s. I've always thought that the 1920s would have killed the habit, because 20s styles used so little material in comparison to most garments of previous generations, and because ready-to-wear became the prominent method of obtaining clothing in the 1920s (even though RTW existed long before that). Except, the depression of the 1930s and the rationing of the 1940s forced most people to recycle, so by the 1950s they were associating it with severe hardship and wanted to get away from it. What is different about the recycling of the 1970s and again, recently, is the association with personalizing ready-to-wear garments, translating into making it obvious that you mended, altered, trimmed, and/or dyed the garment, or made it out of something else entirely, such as household linens. I really like the style of that jacket, though I admit the colors, like many men's suit colors, are too neutral for my taste. Good idea though, as men's suits are often discarded when they are still in very good shape. Fran Lavolta Press www.lavoltapress.com On 4/22/2010 12:12 PM, Käthe Barrows wrote: For one of my classes A while Back I had to recycle mens wool garments into a tailored jacket. Recycling garments into other garments became popular in the Great Depression of the 1930s, and became unpopular when it didn't have to be so necessary. ___ h-costume mailing list h-costume@mail.indra.com http://mail.indra.com/mailman/listinfo/h-costume
Re: [h-cost] Subject: Arty recycling of garments-Recycled Jacket
On 4/22/2010 5:10 PM, Becky Rautine wrote: Today of MSN.com there is a link to photos of clothes made from other clothes or other things. Just about anything can be restyled http://lifestyle.msn.com/your-life/staticslideshowdg.aspx?cp-documentid=23728245gt1=32055 Sincerely, Rebecca Rautine Lots of examples of too-arty-to-be-wearable. Fran Lavolta Press www.lavoltapress.com ___ h-costume mailing list h-costume@mail.indra.com http://mail.indra.com/mailman/listinfo/h-costume
Re: [h-cost] Victorian Hair:
On 4/27/2010 11:08 PM, ladybeanofbun...@aol.com wrote: Hello fellow costumers. ? I wanted to thank those of you who offered your suggestions on mounting swags onto my 1880s balldress. Your advice helped immensely in the creation process and everything went together mostly as planned. My only frustration was that once the decorative parts were?tacked by hand?in place, they lost the smoothness upon laying across the edges of the bodice as had been when initially pinned in place and puckered in some spots. ? After much effort and little discovery though, arranging my hair in a nice period coiffure seems entirely inpossible! Many people I know chose to wear wigs or hair pieces when in costume and although this looks very nice, I have been painstakingly growing out and caring for my own hair for 7 years now solely for the purpose of doing these styles naturally. For many Victorian hairstyles (although obviously this is a long time period and numerous hairstyles were in fashion at different times), natural long hair is just insufficient. Even long-haired Victorians often wore hair pieces, sometimes several in the same coiffure. I've grown my hair for years too, so I know where you're coming from. But basically, all anyone really _needs_ is enough hair to put the hair pieces on. Hair pieces do have the advantage that if you have a cluster of curls, or a braid, or whatever, you do not have to keep restyling that piece them every single time you do the hairstyle. You just attach them. Sure, with long hair you may need one fewer hair piece for a style, but having or not having long hair is mostly a matter for your modern daily lifestyle. Fran Lavolta Press Books on historic clothing www.lavoltapress.com ___ h-costume mailing list h-costume@mail.indra.com http://mail.indra.com/mailman/listinfo/h-costume
Re: [h-cost] Victorian Hair:
One option is to overload the hair with gels, powders, or other additives when you do the styling, to make it stickier, but this can get pretty nasty and heavy, and may cause other problems with the styling. Another solution -- but this takes a longer-term commitment -- is to adopt a pre-modern hair care regimen. For the 19th century at least, the they got the texture and body by never washing their hair is a reenactor's myth. In fact, people were using the equivalents of modern hair products, whether these came in a bottle with a label or not. I know the early 19th century is not the same as the later 19th century--though I've done some research on that too. But, here is a list of some home recipes from my book on the 1820s, _The Lady's Stratagem. Four kinds of depilatory (most containing quicklime and various forms of arsenic). Also, directions for plucking unwanted hairs Oil for making the hair grow (vegetable oil and spirit of rosemary) Four kinds of pomatum/pomade (perfumed animal fats) Ten kinds of antique oils (perfumed nut or vegetable oils, sometimes with additions such as gum guaiac, which had stiffening properties. These recipes include the long-popular Macassar oil). Oils would render the hair more slippery than most modern conditioners Two curling fluids (consisting of soap melted with such ingredients as alcohol and potash) About ten vegetable hair dyes In addition to directions for sponge-washing the hair without immersing the whole head--where much of the soap would likely remain in the hair after the process is over and therefore stiffen it--there are period arguments for and against vigorously immersing and washing the whole head full of hair. Arguments against: It causes headaches, earaches, toothaches, complaints of the eyes, wrinkles, and head colds. Arguments for: Nothing contributes more to prevent these very consequences than frequently washing the head with tepid water, that is, about milk-warm. When the hair is very long, or when much use is made of hair oils and pomatums, I cannot imagine how the hair can be rendered comfortable without frequently washing it. And more of same. I would suggest that for any given historic period, anyone arguing either that the hair was never washed or that hair products were not used to change the texture, look at any available books of beauty recipes for that period. Fran Lavolta Press Books on historic clothing www.lavoltapress.com ___ h-costume mailing list h-costume@mail.indra.com http://mail.indra.com/mailman/listinfo/h-costume
Re: [h-cost] Victorian Hair:
When I was using a run of 1867-1868 _Harper's Bazars_ for _Reconstruction Era Fashions_, what struck me were the numerous descriptions purchased chignons, a term used to cover a wide variety of hair pieces/styles attached more or less to the back of the head. I put some of this information in the book. Fran Lavolta Press Books on Historic Clothing www.lavoltapress.com I recently purchased an 1868 Harper's with step-by-step directions for a ladies' hairstyle. This was accomplished with the ladies' own long hair. It doesn't look difficult to do. Since the film, The Young Victoria, came out, the Queen's hairstyles have become fashionable again in tweens and teenagers. Penny Ladnier Owner, The Costume Gallery Websites www.costumegallery.com 14 websites of fashion, textiles, costume history ___ h-costume mailing list h-costume@mail.indra.com http://mail.indra.com/mailman/listinfo/h-costume ___ h-costume mailing list h-costume@mail.indra.com http://mail.indra.com/mailman/listinfo/h-costume
Re: [h-cost] Victorian Hair:
On 4/28/2010 7:28 PM, ladybeanofbun...@aol.com wrote: There is a very good reason why people did not bathe that way until warmer weather and it had a lot to do with the simple fact that it was too cold to do so in winter. The 1820s advice manuals for the middle classes that I used for _The Lady's Stratagem_ strongly advised bathing in a tub as the principal means of health and freshness. The routine was once a week in all seasons, and two or even three times in the hottest weather (when, of course, people sweat more). The time dictated for the bath was at least an hour and a half. Also advised (this is explicitly stated as an addition to the tub bath routine) was bathing the armpits and feet every morning and evening. A daily tub bath was advised for those who wished to gain weight. I grew up in an 1859 farmhouse that was virtually unaltered when my parents bought it, and the later improvements in plumbing and heating went through long phases of nonfunctionality. I've taken lots of winter baths where the water was heated on the stove and poured into the tub. The water keeps you warm, so it's not too bad, although getting out of the tub into a drafty bathroom is uncomfortable for a few minutes. Shower baths were considered more uncomfortable (though bracing) but they seem to have been taken cold. Fran Lavolta Press www.lavoltapress.com ___ h-costume mailing list h-costume@mail.indra.com http://mail.indra.com/mailman/listinfo/h-costume
Re: [h-cost] textile pattern of Charles de Blois pourpoint
Once again, piracy and a parasitic attitude triumph! Fran On 5/12/2010 11:32 AM, Hanna Zickermann wrote: It was my first book on Medieval clothing, and I still like it a lot after seven years, so I think it was a good buy. I sent the scan to you privately. Hanna At 19:36 12.05.2010, you wrote: Yes please! I don't have the book:-) (Is it worth buying?) ___ Sartor...custom-made costumes www.sartor.cz --- On Wed, 5/12/10, Hanna Zickermann h.zickerm...@gmx.de wrote: From: Hanna Zickermann h.zickerm...@gmx.de Subject: Re: [h-cost] textile pattern of Charles de Blois pourpoint To: Historical Costume h-cost...@indra.com Date: Wednesday, May 12, 2010, 6:57 PM There´s a sketch of the pattern in Kleidung und Waffen der Spätgotik 1320-1370 bei Ulrich Lehnart. Do you want me to scan the page for you? Regards, Hanna At 18:36 12.05.2010, you wrote: Hi all, I want to make a reproduction fabric of the Charles de Blois pourpoint. The problem is that I cannot find any detailed picture that would clearly show the pattern. The best I found so far is: http://www.musee-des-tissus.com/en/02_02/col06/tis07/ima_2.gif Does anybody have a better picture? Thanks, Zuzana ___ Sartor...custom-made costumes www.sartor.cz ___ h-costume mailing list h-costume@mail.indra.com http://mail.indra.com/mailman/listinfo/h-costume ___ h-costume mailing list h-costume@mail.indra.com http://mail.indra.com/mailman/listinfo/h-costume ___ h-costume mailing list h-costume@mail.indra.com http://mail.indra.com/mailman/listinfo/h-costume ___ h-costume mailing list h-costume@mail.indra.com http://mail.indra.com/mailman/listinfo/h-costume ___ h-costume mailing list h-costume@mail.indra.com http://mail.indra.com/mailman/listinfo/h-costume
Re: [h-cost] textile pattern of Charles de Blois pourpoint
But is pirating the author's material exactly what he needed? Was his permission gained before giving you material of his that you did not want to pay for? Fran On 5/12/2010 12:17 PM, Zuzana Kraemerova wrote: Thank you so much! That is exactly what I needed. Really a beautiful pattern... I have to check this book out. I don't like books with modern drawing as they are often wrong, they have no sources, etc. but as I see there are meany good things to find there. I'll let you all know when the fabric is made. If you ever needed any brocade/damask with your own pattern, it is no problem to contact us (minimum order: 15-30meters, $25/meter, $150-200 pattern making fee). ___ Sartor...custom-made costumes www.sartor.cz --- On Wed, 5/12/10, Hanna Zickermannh.zickerm...@gmx.de wrote: From: Hanna Zickermannh.zickerm...@gmx.de Subject: Re: [h-cost] textile pattern of Charles de Blois pourpoint To: Historical Costumeh-cost...@indra.com Date: Wednesday, May 12, 2010, 8:32 PM It was my first book on Medieval clothing, and I still like it a lot after seven years, so I think it was a good buy. I sent the scan to you privately. Hanna At 19:36 12.05.2010, you wrote: Yes please! I don't have the book:-) (Is it worth buying?) ___ Sartor...custom-made costumes www.sartor.cz --- On Wed, 5/12/10, Hanna Zickermannh.zickerm...@gmx.de wrote: From: Hanna Zickermannh.zickerm...@gmx.de Subject: Re: [h-cost] textile pattern of Charles de Blois pourpoint To: Historical Costumeh-cost...@indra.com Date: Wednesday, May 12, 2010, 6:57 PM There´s a sketch of the pattern in Kleidung und Waffen der Spätgotik 1320-1370 bei Ulrich Lehnart. Do you want me to scan the page for you? Regards, Hanna At 18:36 12.05.2010, you wrote: Hi all, I want to make a reproduction fabric of the Charles de Blois pourpoint. The problem is that I cannot find any detailed picture that would clearly show the pattern. The best I found so far is: http://www.musee-des-tissus.com/en/02_02/col06/tis07/ima_2.gif Does anybody have a better picture? Thanks, Zuzana ___ Sartor...custom-made costumes www.sartor.cz ___ h-costume mailing list h-costume@mail.indra.com http://mail.indra.com/mailman/listinfo/h-costume ___ h-costume mailing list h-costume@mail.indra.com http://mail.indra.com/mailman/listinfo/h-costume ___ h-costume mailing list h-costume@mail.indra.com http://mail.indra.com/mailman/listinfo/h-costume ___ h-costume mailing list h-costume@mail.indra.com http://mail.indra.com/mailman/listinfo/h-costume ___ h-costume mailing list h-costume@mail.indra.com http://mail.indra.com/mailman/listinfo/h-costume ___ h-costume mailing list h-costume@mail.indra.com http://mail.indra.com/mailman/listinfo/h-costume
Re: [h-cost] textile pattern of Charles de Blois pourpoint
On 5/12/2010 12:29 PM, Zuzana Kraemerova wrote: Fran, I think you're a bit exaggerating. I have no problems buying the book if that's your concern. I just didn't know in which book the pattern is. None the less, it's in more books I guess (I heard in some Ospreys)...so hard to say who is the original author of the graphic. It is more than probable that I soon go and buy the book. I have many costume books at home and I have no trouble paying for quality, your books are in my library too. I don't know what's the big deal in copying one single page. I often want to see a couple of pages of the book before I decide to buy it. Many students wouldn't be able to study if they hadn't milions of copies of books and excerpts etc. For example when you learn singing, you always get the sheet music copied. Only when you sing on a concert, you have to own the original sheet music. It is not someone else's prerogative to give away a copyright holder's work without their permission on the grounds that it may sell something. And, if someone can't afford a book or excerpt, that does not mean they have a right to it. To cut short the usual circular defenses of the world's right to get for free the hard work and investments of authors, publishers, editors, graphic artists, illustrators, translators, and all others who want copyrighted work for free, I've taken to just emailing the author or publisher, explaining their work is being offered for free, asking if they gave permission and giving them the emails of the people involved. Which I just did. Fran Lavolta Press www.lavoltapress.com ___ h-costume mailing list h-costume@mail.indra.com http://mail.indra.com/mailman/listinfo/h-costume
Re: [h-cost] civility
On 5/12/2010 12:51 PM, Schaeffer, Astrida wrote: Fran, Your actions assume much and jump to great and unsubstantiated conclusions. No, actually, as I always do in these circumstances, I very carefully asked the person I contacted if copyright permission was given and said if not, they might be interested. You do greater harm by them. How can I do harm if permission was given and I just made a mistake? If theft occurred, theft is not civil. If it did not coccur, no harm done. I don't agree with the female reenactor definition of civility as doing whatever other people want and an uncivil person as whoever you personally dislike or is not in your clique. If people like me, fine. If they don't like me, I sincerely don't care. Fran ___ h-costume mailing list h-costume@mail.indra.com http://mail.indra.com/mailman/listinfo/h-costume
Re: [h-cost] civility
I also, by the way, do not even remotely feel threatened if people say they don't read my posts, or that they won't. I don't read many posts on email lists either. Fran ___ h-costume mailing list h-costume@mail.indra.com http://mail.indra.com/mailman/listinfo/h-costume
Re: [h-cost] civility
Sure, calling people poisonous is gentle. Look: If someone says they did not seek permission for work they are distributing on an email list, website, etc, I raise the possibility with the publisher, author, or distributor as to whether copyright theft occurred and give them contact information so they can, if they wish, work things out with the person or people distributing their work. That's all. Fran On 5/12/2010 1:18 PM, Bambi TBNL wrote: Fran, I plead with you to take head of Dear Astrida's coment. This incredibly strong and wonderful woman has very kindly expressed an opinion in a way that was clear and though it gently corrected...it was kind. WE can ALL learn a lot from how she stated things. Bambi (To be named later) TBNL I am made for great things by GOD and walk with Pride Walladah bint al Mustakfi c 1100ad see me dance http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=7HMtOoXtMs0 From: Schaeffer, Astridaastrida.schaef...@unh.edu To: Historical Costumeh-cost...@indra.com Sent: Wed, May 12, 2010 3:51:01 PM Subject: [h-cost] civility Fran, Your actions assume much and jump to great and unsubstantiated conclusions. You do greater harm by them. Every time I decide to see if your posts have gotten less poisonous and try to read them again, I see that they have not. This is a sadness, because clearly you have great knowledge. With regret, Astrida ___ h-costume mailing list h-costume@mail.indra.com http://mail.indra.com/mailman/listinfo/h-costume ___ h-costume mailing list h-costume@mail.indra.com http://mail.indra.com/mailman/listinfo/h-costume ___ h-costume mailing list h-costume@mail.indra.com http://mail.indra.com/mailman/listinfo/h-costume
Re: [h-cost] civility
If nothing illegal occurred under German copyright law, no harm done by mentioning to the copyright holder. Fran On 5/12/2010 2:18 PM, Rachel Sohn wrote: My understanding is that one or two pages were scanned and sent privately, to be used in private research. Under the copyright laws with which I am familiar (and I don't know which country's laws would apply in this case), this constitutes Fair Use, and is therefore would seem to be NOT theft or piracy. 2010/5/12, Lavolta Pressf...@lavoltapress.com: Sure, calling people poisonous is gentle. Look: If someone says they did not seek permission for work they are distributing on an email list, website, etc, I raise the possibility with the publisher, author, or distributor as to whether copyright theft occurred and give them contact information so they can, if they wish, work things out with the person or people distributing their work. That's all. Fran On 5/12/2010 1:18 PM, Bambi TBNL wrote: Fran, I plead with you to take head of Dear Astrida's coment. This incredibly strong and wonderful woman has very kindly expressed an opinion in a way that was clear and though it gently corrected...it was kind. WE can ALL learn a lot from how she stated things. Bambi (To be named later) TBNL I am made for great things by GOD and walk with Pride Walladah bint al Mustakfi c 1100ad see me dance http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=7HMtOoXtMs0 From: Schaeffer, Astridaastrida.schaef...@unh.edu To: Historical Costumeh-cost...@indra.com Sent: Wed, May 12, 2010 3:51:01 PM Subject: [h-cost] civility Fran, Your actions assume much and jump to great and unsubstantiated conclusions. You do greater harm by them. Every time I decide to see if your posts have gotten less poisonous and try to read them again, I see that they have not. This is a sadness, because clearly you have great knowledge. With regret, Astrida ___ h-costume mailing list h-costume@mail.indra.com http://mail.indra.com/mailman/listinfo/h-costume ___ h-costume mailing list h-costume@mail.indra.com http://mail.indra.com/mailman/listinfo/h-costume ___ h-costume mailing list h-costume@mail.indra.com http://mail.indra.com/mailman/listinfo/h-costume ___ h-costume mailing list h-costume@mail.indra.com http://mail.indra.com/mailman/listinfo/h-costume ___ h-costume mailing list h-costume@mail.indra.com http://mail.indra.com/mailman/listinfo/h-costume
Re: [h-cost] civility
I'm forseeing the usual endless gyrations justifying piracy and a parasitic attitude. I've gotten tired of the justifications for piracy. I just report everything that seems questionable to me to the copyright holder and let them determine whether they want that use to be made. Fran On 5/12/2010 2:18 PM, Rachel Sohn wrote: My understanding is that one or two pages were scanned and sent privately, to be used in private research. Under the copyright laws with which I am familiar (and I don't know which country's laws would apply in this case), this constitutes Fair Use, and is therefore would seem to be NOT theft or piracy. 2010/5/12, Lavolta Pressf...@lavoltapress.com: Sure, calling people poisonous is gentle. Look: If someone says they did not seek permission for work they are distributing on an email list, website, etc, I raise the possibility with the publisher, author, or distributor as to whether copyright theft occurred and give them contact information so they can, if they wish, work things out with the person or people distributing their work. That's all. Fran On 5/12/2010 1:18 PM, Bambi TBNL wrote: Fran, I plead with you to take head of Dear Astrida's coment. This incredibly strong and wonderful woman has very kindly expressed an opinion in a way that was clear and though it gently corrected...it was kind. WE can ALL learn a lot from how she stated things. Bambi (To be named later) TBNL I am made for great things by GOD and walk with Pride Walladah bint al Mustakfi c 1100ad see me dance http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=7HMtOoXtMs0 From: Schaeffer, Astridaastrida.schaef...@unh.edu To: Historical Costumeh-cost...@indra.com Sent: Wed, May 12, 2010 3:51:01 PM Subject: [h-cost] civility Fran, Your actions assume much and jump to great and unsubstantiated conclusions. You do greater harm by them. Every time I decide to see if your posts have gotten less poisonous and try to read them again, I see that they have not. This is a sadness, because clearly you have great knowledge. With regret, Astrida ___ h-costume mailing list h-costume@mail.indra.com http://mail.indra.com/mailman/listinfo/h-costume ___ h-costume mailing list h-costume@mail.indra.com http://mail.indra.com/mailman/listinfo/h-costume ___ h-costume mailing list h-costume@mail.indra.com http://mail.indra.com/mailman/listinfo/h-costume ___ h-costume mailing list h-costume@mail.indra.com http://mail.indra.com/mailman/listinfo/h-costume ___ h-costume mailing list h-costume@mail.indra.com http://mail.indra.com/mailman/listinfo/h-costume
Re: [h-cost] civility
Personally, this civility fight is stupid and both parties are exaggerating! Gyrations, gyrations. It is perfectly civil to ask someone if you may copy their work and perfect civil to facilitate that, if the copying parties do not do it themselves. If people are afraid the copyright holder will refuse they should ask themselves why. Fran ___ h-costume mailing list h-costume@mail.indra.com http://mail.indra.com/mailman/listinfo/h-costume
Re: [h-cost] h-costume Digest, Vol 9, Issue 144
On 5/12/2010 2:56 PM, Donna Hawk wrote: you're not going to change her mind, sway her in the least, nor get an apology. Correct. My livelihood depends on copyright law. I never see people apologizing for stealing. So, with two books to get to the printer, as I say, I just notify the copyright holders. I've been doing that for some time. I'm sure that any determined thieves are not actually interested in details of copyright law or quotes from books on it, they just want to run me around and support each other's justifications for theft. Fran ___ h-costume mailing list h-costume@mail.indra.com http://mail.indra.com/mailman/listinfo/h-costume
Re: [h-cost] Question of fair use
As I've said, it's very curious that the same people who are so emphatic about their legal rights to do this or that and about civility, are so opposed to asking permission to use other people's copyrighted material. Why is that, I wonder? Fran On 5/12/2010 3:43 PM, Beteena Paradise wrote: I'm confused about this. Why would someone who took a photograph of a piece of clothing from the 14th century own the copyright for the pattern of the fabric? Now, I could see contacting the museum or organization that owns the piece of clothing. But the photographer or author of the book? No way. From: annbw...@aol.comannbw...@aol.com To: h-cost...@indra.com Sent: Wed, May 12, 2010 11:26:46 PM Subject: [h-cost] Question of fair use Have to side with Fran on this one. As a creator of intellectual property that has been misappropriated myself, I can appreciate her vigilance. The subsequent poster may be correct that the intended action was fair use; however, remember that the intent of the original poster is to reproduce the design on a fabric. Now, if she were weaving it herself (okay a stretch, I admit, as it is brocade) for her own use, you might still be able to claim fair use. But to turn over the design to a commercial weaver, who could conceivably use it again to sell the fabric to someone else, well, I agree that isn't fair to the author/artist. In that case, I would DEFINITELY ask the author/artist for permission. Ann Wass ___ h-costume mailing list h-costume@mail.indra.com http://mail.indra.com/mailman/listinfo/h-costume ___ h-costume mailing list h-costume@mail.indra.com http://mail.indra.com/mailman/listinfo/h-costume ___ h-costume mailing list h-costume@mail.indra.com http://mail.indra.com/mailman/listinfo/h-costume
Re: [h-cost] h-costume Digest, Vol 9, Issue 144
On 5/12/2010 4:04 PM, Sharon Collier wrote: Out of curiosity, how much might a copyright holder charge for permission to do this? For this kind of subsidiary use the fee is totally up to whoever is controlling the rights to that use, ranging from free to whatever they want to charge. Or they can refuse permission entirely for any reason they like. It's up to them. Fran ___ h-costume mailing list h-costume@mail.indra.com http://mail.indra.com/mailman/listinfo/h-costume
Re: [h-cost] textile pattern of Charles de Blois pourpoint
Or could it be you just don't like being told you can't legally or ethically use other people's copyrighted material in any way you like without the simple action of asking their permission? Fran On 5/12/2010 4:07 PM, Audrey Bergeron-Morin wrote: Just send her posts to Trash... This is a recurring thing with her and not worth my time, so I created a filter just for her... It's not the defending copyrights thing... it's the way she has of walking on your toes then slapping you in the face, all the time being self-righteous about it. Really, not worth spending the energy on! I welcome any and all opinions... as long as they are worded respectful and considerate manner... On Wed, May 12, 2010 at 3:46 PM, Zuzana Kraemerova zkraemer...@yahoo.com wrote: Thanks, Fran. You wanna see the receipt from Amazon? Why don't you go and investigate tons of warez sites if you're so concerned about copyright? You have absolutely no idea what enormous amount of money goes lost in this business. I am not a part of it. And I fear you can't do much about it. The whole China is crowded with black money. ___ Sartor...custom-made costumes www.sartor.cz --- On Wed, 5/12/10, Lavolta Pressf...@lavoltapress.com wrote: From: Lavolta Pressf...@lavoltapress.com Subject: Re: [h-cost] textile pattern of Charles de Blois pourpoint To: Historical Costumeh-cost...@indra.com Date: Wednesday, May 12, 2010, 9:35 PM On 5/12/2010 12:29 PM, Zuzana Kraemerova wrote: Fran, I think you're a bit exaggerating. I have no problems buying the book if that's your concern. I just didn't know in which book the pattern is. None the less, it's in more books I guess (I heard in some Ospreys)...so hard to say who is the original author of the graphic. It is more than probable that I soon go and buy the book. I have many costume books at home and I have no trouble paying for quality, your books are in my library too. I don't know what's the big deal in copying one single page. I often want to see a couple of pages of the book before I decide to buy it. Many students wouldn't be able to study if they hadn't milions of copies of books and excerpts etc. For example when you learn singing, you always get the sheet music copied. Only when you sing on a concert, you have to own the original sheet music. It is not someone else's prerogative to give away a copyright holder's work without their permission on the grounds that it may sell something. And, if someone can't afford a book or excerpt, that does not mean they have a right to it. To cut short the usual circular defenses of the world's right to get for free the hard work and investments of authors, publishers, editors, graphic artists, illustrators, translators, and all others who want copyrighted work for free, I've taken to just emailing the author or publisher, explaining their work is being offered for free, asking if they gave permission and giving them the emails of the people involved. Which I just did. Fran Lavolta Press www.lavoltapress.com ___ h-costume mailing list h-costume@mail.indra.com http://mail.indra.com/mailman/listinfo/h-costume ___ h-costume mailing list h-costume@mail.indra.com http://mail.indra.com/mailman/listinfo/h-costume ___ h-costume mailing list h-costume@mail.indra.com http://mail.indra.com/mailman/listinfo/h-costume ___ h-costume mailing list h-costume@mail.indra.com http://mail.indra.com/mailman/listinfo/h-costume
Re: [h-cost] Question of fair use
One of the things we found when photographing in European museums is that the rules are very strict on who the copyright of the photographed image belongs to. It definitely isn't the photographer. In some places where there is a strict no-photography rule (Verulamium, Wallace Collection etc), we were able to photograph providing that we signed a form saying that we would only used the photographs for research purposes, not for commercial use. Any copyright strictly stayed with the museum. A publisher is held legally responsible for clearing permissions to copyrighted works used in the publication. The photo copyright could belong to a photographer (one who did not sign the relevant rights away to a museum), or to a museum, or to someone hired by the publisher or author. However, the publisher always knows who the copyright belongs to, and the author often knows. If the publisher does not hold the copyright they can direct you to the relevant party, and the author can always direct you to the publisher. Fran ___ h-costume mailing list h-costume@mail.indra.com http://mail.indra.com/mailman/listinfo/h-costume
Re: [h-cost] Post Titles, Custom Brocade, Copyright
Sharon, I'm ignoring the question of fair use of a copied page from a publication (either physical or digital via the Internet) and speaking only to intellectual rights: Is this German copyright law? If the book is copyrighted in Germany, that is the law that applies. The Berne Convention requires the countries who signed it to respect each other's copyright laws, but these are by no means identical. Fran ___ h-costume mailing list h-costume@mail.indra.com http://mail.indra.com/mailman/listinfo/h-costume
Re: [h-cost] h-costume Digest, Vol 9, Issue 144
and will be deleting future posts on this. Another reason I wonn't let you run me around. Fran ___ h-costume mailing list h-costume@mail.indra.com http://mail.indra.com/mailman/listinfo/h-costume
Re: [h-cost] Brocade and Fair Usegalities
On 5/13/2010 8:08 AM, R Lloyd Mitchell wrote: Coming late into this discussion, I have found myself wondering about how commercial companies (say Waverly) go about reproducing fabrics from the historical perspective (say Winterthur or Williamsburg). Permission to copy?? Permission to sell? I suggest that you contact some of them and ask. \What makes the diff when the reproduced fabric is used for costume purposes? If you wish to copy a fabric for costume purposes, I suggest that you contact the museum from which you wish to reproduce it and ask them. If you need permission from a fabric manufacturer, ask them. Also took time to check again the copywright statements on some of my patterns that include the Major 3, Fire and Smoke, Five Rivers, and a host of other designers who are working all the time to give us good renderings of patterns to inspire Historical clothing.? All are agreed in opening statements that the pattern is for personal/individual sewing and not to be used for commercial enterprise . How do these two issues get reconciled when the demand for the product exceeds the implied legal issues? You'll have noticed that when you install software, you often have to agree to/click on a licensing agreement that says how many machines you can install that copy on and other things. Some pattern companies also put licensing agreements on their patterns. As with other permissions issues, if you wish to exceed the license you contact the manufacturer, tell them exactly what you want to do, and work something out. There is no standard price for anything--people charge whatever they wish, and they can also refuse permission to do what you want. Note that just because you think a permission is too expensive, is no reason for you to violate copyright or a licensing agreement. Usually professionals who ask for licensing agreements or permissions that don't work out, just try someone else who charges less or is more liberal about agreements. Fran ___ h-costume mailing list h-costume@mail.indra.com http://mail.indra.com/mailman/listinfo/h-costume
Re: [h-cost] copyright law thing...
It makes me want to heave. But, as you've noted, the law is what you have to follow when using other people's work, not your personal standards. I have not noticed at all that art is being killed. Certainly, in terms of publications, there is a huge increase in the number of books published in recent years, and the text and illustrations in those must also conform to copyright law. Fran ___ h-costume mailing list h-costume@mail.indra.com http://mail.indra.com/mailman/listinfo/h-costume
Re: [h-cost] copyright law thing...
On 5/13/2010 11:29 AM, Sharon Collier wrote: I see the internet/emails/ h-costume list as a group of friends. Someone says,I have a book with an interesting picture. Someone else wants to borrow the book to look at the picture. If we were in the same town, the other person could just come to my house and look at the book, but since we live hundreds or thousands of miles apart, we scan the relevant picture and send to our friend to look at. Is that copyright infringement or fair use? If the friend wants to look at the picture because they are merely interested in it, not if they are planning on using it commercially. Often I have friends who are looking for an example of a piece of clothing, so we can go to our costume mistress and say, Here is an example of the piece I want to wear. Sigh. Every time anyone brings up copyright law, people then go on and on about reasons why they personally should get an exemption from it. Your being someone's friend does not give you an exemption, and your offering something to several hundred people via an email list most certainly does not give you an exemption. Fran ___ h-costume mailing list h-costume@mail.indra.com http://mail.indra.com/mailman/listinfo/h-costume
Re: [h-cost] copyright law thing...
Oh yes, then you're using the willful confusion argument. Looking and reading are not the same as copying. Copyright law literally governs the right to make copies. Again, all I see here is people who don't want to bother paying for material or asking permission (pirates and parasites), so they go round, and round, and round, and round, and round with arguments about why they personally shouldn't. Sorry, your feelings and your personal convenience do not govern copyright law. Fran On 5/13/2010 11:36 AM, Lavolta Press wrote: On 5/13/2010 11:29 AM, Sharon Collier wrote: I see the internet/emails/ h-costume list as a group of friends. Someone says,I have a book with an interesting picture. Someone else wants to borrow the book to look at the picture. If we were in the same town, the other person could just come to my house and look at the book, but since we live hundreds or thousands of miles apart, we scan the relevant picture and send to our friend to look at. Is that copyright infringement or fair use? If the friend wants to look at the picture because they are merely interested in it, not if they are planning on using it commercially. Often I have friends who are looking for an example of a piece of clothing, so we can go to our costume mistress and say, Here is an example of the piece I want to wear. Sigh. Every time anyone brings up copyright law, people then go on and on about reasons why they personally should get an exemption from it. Your being someone's friend does not give you an exemption, and your offering something to several hundred people via an email list most certainly does not give you an exemption. Fran ___ h-costume mailing list h-costume@mail.indra.com http://mail.indra.com/mailman/listinfo/h-costume ___ h-costume mailing list h-costume@mail.indra.com http://mail.indra.com/mailman/listinfo/h-costume
Re: [h-cost] copyright law thing...
Again, all I see here is people who don't want to bother paying for material or asking permission (pirates and parasites), so they go round, and round, and round, and round, and round with arguments about why they personally shouldn't. Sorry, your feelings and your personal convenience do not govern copyright law. Fran And, speaking of bugaboos--it's the exact same people! Every discussion, the same ones are popping up all confused about whether reading a book is the same as copying it, and so on. People explain it to them, then the next discussion they're going round, and round, and on, and on, and on, and on with it. I can only conclude that the goal is to make h-costume a cozy little warez site, where everyone pets everyone else for pirating for the public good. Which, however, has nothing to do with what the copyright holder can do about it. Fran ___ h-costume mailing list h-costume@mail.indra.com http://mail.indra.com/mailman/listinfo/h-costume
Re: [h-cost] copyright law thing...
No Chris, I am not going to get run around on this one yet again, diligently looking up stuff for people who say they are confused and who then go round and round being yet more confused, all to the end of asserting they can do whatever they feel like. Read some books on copyright law. Fran On 5/13/2010 12:20 PM, Chris Laning wrote: Fran, it sounds like you are saying that legally there is no such thing as fair use. If that's not the case, could you explain what constitutes fair use? O Chris Laning clan...@igc.org - Davis, California + http://paternoster-row.org - http://paternosters.blogspot.com ___ h-costume mailing list h-costume@mail.indra.com http://mail.indra.com/mailman/listinfo/h-costume ___ h-costume mailing list h-costume@mail.indra.com http://mail.indra.com/mailman/listinfo/h-costume
Re: [h-cost] copyright law thing...
On 5/13/2010 2:30 PM, R Lloyd Mitchell wrote: Such clarity. Your thoughtful explanation is of great interest to me...one of those independents who strives to do Art with originality as well as craft. The laws that have been developed are suppose to be safe=guards... And they are. There is absolutely zero evidence that art is being hindered in any way by copyright law or enforcement of same. Note that copyright law is intended to further art by giving artists, composers, writers, etc. a basis for getting paid. Note also that copyright law often does not mean you cannot use someone else's work. It means you may need to ask permission (which may be refused), and you may have to pay. You cannot fairly complain that use of all works is utterly stifled by it. Fran ___ h-costume mailing list h-costume@mail.indra.com http://mail.indra.com/mailman/listinfo/h-costume
Re: [h-cost] book sharing, was: copyright law thing...
Or you could get on Skype and hold it up to your web cam for your long-distance friend to see. That way someone can look without making a copy for them. Or you can just give them the title and explain why you think it's such a good book, and let them look up reviews and bookstores on the net. Fran ___ h-costume mailing list h-costume@mail.indra.com http://mail.indra.com/mailman/listinfo/h-costume
Re: [h-cost] Brocade and Fair Use
Thus stealing the bread from the mouths of the children of the starving publishers since, unless self published, or a Best Seller, the authors of academic stuff get little or nothing for their hard work. So you think they should get less? Fran ___ h-costume mailing list h-costume@mail.indra.com http://mail.indra.com/mailman/listinfo/h-costume
Re: [h-cost] Query re: website
But I do know a few of her contributors Do you know what the contributor payment range is? I don't do much magazine work any more but if the price is right . . . . Fran Lavolta Press www.lavoltapress.com ___ h-costume mailing list h-costume@mail.indra.com http://mail.indra.com/mailman/listinfo/h-costume
Re: [h-cost] Query re: website
By the way, I'm curious to know what people think of the marketing prose for this site. Personally, it sets my teeth on edge. It's much too slick and to me, seems reminiscent of those junk mail letters where they underline words in red and print little notes in the margin. But then, what I want to see in marketing prose is pretty geeky. Give me the facts and figures, that's what makes me happy. Fran Lavolta Press www.lavoltapress.com On 5/17/2010 8:32 PM, Marjorie Wilser wrote: Here it is: http://yourwardrobeunlockd.com/ I clicked on an ad on Facebook. Thoughts on this site? Caveats? Anybody know the site owner? ___ h-costume mailing list h-costume@mail.indra.com http://mail.indra.com/mailman/listinfo/h-costume
Re: [h-cost] Query re: website
The marketing prose strikes me as pretty tame and tasteful as print or Internet marketing go. Of course, everyone's mileage will vary on that sort of thing. I think I'm reacting to the fact that the marketing is so targeted to a beginning audience. However, much of the website is targeted to a beginning audience, so that marketing is actually appropriate. I am aware that there is no standard as to what is considered beginning, intermediate, or advanced costuming, and that people place themselves into these categories depending on their own goals and so on. But to me, Your Wardrobe Unlock'd is a beginner site, the corset site somewhat less so. In other words, I didn't find a lot of new information there but it will be different for other people. Fran Lavolta Press www.lavoltapress.com ___ h-costume mailing list h-costume@mail.indra.com http://mail.indra.com/mailman/listinfo/h-costume
Re: [h-cost] Query re: website
My impression is somewhat different--but then, so may my definition of beginner. To me, a beginner is still learning to sew, let alone apply that knowledge to historic clothing. I'd say beginning costumer. I think they are right in focusing the site on costuming and not on sewing basics per se--too much competition from established sewing magazines. I'm not really in their market, but obviously they need to do what they think will sell the largest number of subscriptions. Fran Lavolta Press www.lavoltapress.com ___ h-costume mailing list h-costume@mail.indra.com http://mail.indra.com/mailman/listinfo/h-costume
[h-cost] Finally, someone has figured out how to repurpose doilies
http://www.magnoliapearl.com/shop/clothing/clothing-gallery3.htm http://www.magnoliapearl.com/shop/clothing/clothing-gallery2.htm Fran Lavolta Press Books on making historic clothing www.lavoltapress.com ___ h-costume mailing list h-costume@mail.indra.com http://mail.indra.com/mailman/listinfo/h-costume
