Re: [MBZ] OT: EV battery breathrough by IBM?

[G Mann via Mercedes]

 < Over the last two years, South Korean utilities have experienced 23
lithium-ion battery fires.>>

I refer to my earlier post, re Lithium Ion batteries as currently produced,
and re, the giant battery housed in shopping mall...

The holy grail of alternate energy is how to store it for later use.
Perhaps, in time, but not yet.

On Thu, Dec 19, 2019 at 12:20 PM Floyd Thursby via Mercedes <
mercedes@okiebenz.com> wrote:

> The big oil companies will buy the technology never to be seen again!
> Just like the 100mpg carburetor!
>
> And I myself prefer to have child slave laborers mine stuff for my Pious!
>
> --FT
>
> On 12/19/19 2:08 PM, Dimitri Seretakis via Mercedes wrote:
> > Now that the secret is out, the Chinese will knock it off!
> >
> > Sent from my iPhone
> >
> >> On Dec 19, 2019, at 1:40 PM, Andrew Strasfogel via Mercedes <
> mercedes@okiebenz.com> wrote:
> >>
> >> ELECTRIC VEHICLESIBM announces battery breakthrough
> >>
> >> Published: Thursday, December 19, 2019
> >>
> >> IBM is developing a safer, more powerful electric battery that promises
> to
> >> reduce the charging time for electric vehicles and may enhance the
> >> possibility of electric aircraft, the company announced yesterday.
> >>
> >> In an interview, Bob Allen, senior manager of materials innovation at
> IBM's
> >> Almaden laboratory in San Jose, Calif., said the breakthrough came with
> the
> >> addition of iodine to the lithium-ion battery's chemistry. Two years
> ago,
> >> the change startled researchers with "just extreme, out-of-the-chute
> power
> >> density," he said.
> >>
> >> As is sometimes the case with breakthroughs, scientists were looking for
> >> something else: a way to protect lithium-ion batteries with a catalyst
> that
> >> reduced long, whisker-like chemical growths on their anodes. These
> >> "dendrites" caused short-circuits and created a higher potential for
> >> battery fires.
> >>
> >> The introduction of new materials also allowed IBM researchers to
> eliminate
> >> two heavy metals, nickel and cobalt, from the battery's formula,
> reducing
> >> its cost and expense. There is no mining associated with iodine, Allen
> >> noted, because it can be extracted from seawater.
> >>
> >> "We think of this now as not just a research project; we are really
> focused
> >> on pivoting to production," explained Allen, who said it led IBM to
> develop
> >> a consortium of companies that could help produce the upgraded battery
> in
> >> two to three years.
> >>
> >> The group includes Mercedes-Benz Research and Development North America,
> >> which is developing electric cars, and Central Glass Co. Ltd., a
> Japanese
> >> company that is a major manufacturer of battery electrolyte, a substance
> >> that produces an electrically conducting solution when dissolved in
> water.
> >> Sidus, a Silicon Valley company, will manufacture the new battery.
> >>
> >> Because the battery would be able to store more power, Allen predicted
> that
> >> EV owners could fast-charge the battery, giving it 80% of its power
> within
> >> five minutes. That's about how long it takes to fill up a
> gasoline-powered
> >> car.
> >>
> >> In a statement released yesterday, IBM claims that when its battery is
> >> "optimized" for use in aircraft, it will outperform "the most powerful
> >> lithium-ion batteries available." Currently, there are no
> cost-competitive,
> >> low-carbon fuels or engines that can propel passenger planes.
> >>
> >> The company also said its proposed battery has a relatively low
> >> flammability, which would give larger versions of the battery a safety
> >> factor that could help utilities store more electricity from solar and
> wind
> >> farms. Over the last two years, South Korean utilities have experienced
> 23
> >> lithium-ion battery fires.
> >>
> >> In April, there was a fire and explosion at a battery facility
> connected to
> >> a utility's solar power array west of Phoenix. It sent a policeman and
> >> several firemen to local hospitals. Investigators in the United States
> and
> >> South Korea have not isolated a single cause for the battery fires.
> >>
> >> Research into IBM's battery chemistry was helped by an "atomic force
> >> microscope" that enabled scientists to examine the battery's operation
> at
> >> the molecular level. "What we have is a battery that looks incredibly
> >> compelling that has a lot of interesting attributes," said Allen.
> >>
> >> According to the IBM statement, the new battery stems from the
> development
> >> of "three new and different proprietary materials," which do not appear
> to
> >> have been used in previous batteries. It also noted that cobalt, used in
> >> current batteries, has a "sourcing concern" because it is found in
> central
> >> Africa, where some companies use child labor to manually dig it out of
> the
> >> ground.
> >>
> >> Previously, IBM's Almaden laboratory pioneered a process to make
> integrated
> >> circuits, which is now used worldwide.
> >> 

Re: [MBZ] OT: EV battery breathrough by IBM?

[Floyd Thursby via Mercedes]

The big oil companies will buy the technology never to be seen again!  
Just like the 100mpg carburetor!


And I myself prefer to have child slave laborers mine stuff for my Pious!

--FT

On 12/19/19 2:08 PM, Dimitri Seretakis via Mercedes wrote:

Now that the secret is out, the Chinese will knock it off!

Sent from my iPhone


On Dec 19, 2019, at 1:40 PM, Andrew Strasfogel via Mercedes 
 wrote:

ELECTRIC VEHICLESIBM announces battery breakthrough

Published: Thursday, December 19, 2019

IBM is developing a safer, more powerful electric battery that promises to
reduce the charging time for electric vehicles and may enhance the
possibility of electric aircraft, the company announced yesterday.

In an interview, Bob Allen, senior manager of materials innovation at IBM's
Almaden laboratory in San Jose, Calif., said the breakthrough came with the
addition of iodine to the lithium-ion battery's chemistry. Two years ago,
the change startled researchers with "just extreme, out-of-the-chute power
density," he said.

As is sometimes the case with breakthroughs, scientists were looking for
something else: a way to protect lithium-ion batteries with a catalyst that
reduced long, whisker-like chemical growths on their anodes. These
"dendrites" caused short-circuits and created a higher potential for
battery fires.

The introduction of new materials also allowed IBM researchers to eliminate
two heavy metals, nickel and cobalt, from the battery's formula, reducing
its cost and expense. There is no mining associated with iodine, Allen
noted, because it can be extracted from seawater.

"We think of this now as not just a research project; we are really focused
on pivoting to production," explained Allen, who said it led IBM to develop
a consortium of companies that could help produce the upgraded battery in
two to three years.

The group includes Mercedes-Benz Research and Development North America,
which is developing electric cars, and Central Glass Co. Ltd., a Japanese
company that is a major manufacturer of battery electrolyte, a substance
that produces an electrically conducting solution when dissolved in water.
Sidus, a Silicon Valley company, will manufacture the new battery.

Because the battery would be able to store more power, Allen predicted that
EV owners could fast-charge the battery, giving it 80% of its power within
five minutes. That's about how long it takes to fill up a gasoline-powered
car.

In a statement released yesterday, IBM claims that when its battery is
"optimized" for use in aircraft, it will outperform "the most powerful
lithium-ion batteries available." Currently, there are no cost-competitive,
low-carbon fuels or engines that can propel passenger planes.

The company also said its proposed battery has a relatively low
flammability, which would give larger versions of the battery a safety
factor that could help utilities store more electricity from solar and wind
farms. Over the last two years, South Korean utilities have experienced 23
lithium-ion battery fires.

In April, there was a fire and explosion at a battery facility connected to
a utility's solar power array west of Phoenix. It sent a policeman and
several firemen to local hospitals. Investigators in the United States and
South Korea have not isolated a single cause for the battery fires.

Research into IBM's battery chemistry was helped by an "atomic force
microscope" that enabled scientists to examine the battery's operation at
the molecular level. "What we have is a battery that looks incredibly
compelling that has a lot of interesting attributes," said Allen.

According to the IBM statement, the new battery stems from the development
of "three new and different proprietary materials," which do not appear to
have been used in previous batteries. It also noted that cobalt, used in
current batteries, has a "sourcing concern" because it is found in central
Africa, where some companies use child labor to manually dig it out of the
ground.

Previously, IBM's Almaden laboratory pioneered a process to make integrated
circuits, which is now used worldwide.
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--
--FT


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Re: [MBZ] OT: EV battery breathrough by IBM?

[Dimitri Seretakis via Mercedes]

Now that the secret is out, the Chinese will knock it off!

Sent from my iPhone

> On Dec 19, 2019, at 1:40 PM, Andrew Strasfogel via Mercedes 
>  wrote:
> 
> ELECTRIC VEHICLESIBM announces battery breakthrough
> 
> Published: Thursday, December 19, 2019
> 
> IBM is developing a safer, more powerful electric battery that promises to
> reduce the charging time for electric vehicles and may enhance the
> possibility of electric aircraft, the company announced yesterday.
> 
> In an interview, Bob Allen, senior manager of materials innovation at IBM's
> Almaden laboratory in San Jose, Calif., said the breakthrough came with the
> addition of iodine to the lithium-ion battery's chemistry. Two years ago,
> the change startled researchers with "just extreme, out-of-the-chute power
> density," he said.
> 
> As is sometimes the case with breakthroughs, scientists were looking for
> something else: a way to protect lithium-ion batteries with a catalyst that
> reduced long, whisker-like chemical growths on their anodes. These
> "dendrites" caused short-circuits and created a higher potential for
> battery fires.
> 
> The introduction of new materials also allowed IBM researchers to eliminate
> two heavy metals, nickel and cobalt, from the battery's formula, reducing
> its cost and expense. There is no mining associated with iodine, Allen
> noted, because it can be extracted from seawater.
> 
> "We think of this now as not just a research project; we are really focused
> on pivoting to production," explained Allen, who said it led IBM to develop
> a consortium of companies that could help produce the upgraded battery in
> two to three years.
> 
> The group includes Mercedes-Benz Research and Development North America,
> which is developing electric cars, and Central Glass Co. Ltd., a Japanese
> company that is a major manufacturer of battery electrolyte, a substance
> that produces an electrically conducting solution when dissolved in water.
> Sidus, a Silicon Valley company, will manufacture the new battery.
> 
> Because the battery would be able to store more power, Allen predicted that
> EV owners could fast-charge the battery, giving it 80% of its power within
> five minutes. That's about how long it takes to fill up a gasoline-powered
> car.
> 
> In a statement released yesterday, IBM claims that when its battery is
> "optimized" for use in aircraft, it will outperform "the most powerful
> lithium-ion batteries available." Currently, there are no cost-competitive,
> low-carbon fuels or engines that can propel passenger planes.
> 
> The company also said its proposed battery has a relatively low
> flammability, which would give larger versions of the battery a safety
> factor that could help utilities store more electricity from solar and wind
> farms. Over the last two years, South Korean utilities have experienced 23
> lithium-ion battery fires.
> 
> In April, there was a fire and explosion at a battery facility connected to
> a utility's solar power array west of Phoenix. It sent a policeman and
> several firemen to local hospitals. Investigators in the United States and
> South Korea have not isolated a single cause for the battery fires.
> 
> Research into IBM's battery chemistry was helped by an "atomic force
> microscope" that enabled scientists to examine the battery's operation at
> the molecular level. "What we have is a battery that looks incredibly
> compelling that has a lot of interesting attributes," said Allen.
> 
> According to the IBM statement, the new battery stems from the development
> of "three new and different proprietary materials," which do not appear to
> have been used in previous batteries. It also noted that cobalt, used in
> current batteries, has a "sourcing concern" because it is found in central
> Africa, where some companies use child labor to manually dig it out of the
> ground.
> 
> Previously, IBM's Almaden laboratory pioneered a process to make integrated
> circuits, which is now used worldwide.
> ___
> http://www.okiebenz.com
> 
> To search list archives http://www.okiebenz.com/archive/
> 
> To Unsubscribe or change delivery options go to:
> http://mail.okiebenz.com/mailman/listinfo/mercedes_okiebenz.com
> 


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Re: [MBZ] OT: EV battery breathrough by IBM?

[OK Don via Mercedes]

This does sound promising, but I'll not hold my breath waiting for it -

On Thu, Dec 19, 2019 at 12:41 PM Andrew Strasfogel via Mercedes <
mercedes@okiebenz.com> wrote:

> ELECTRIC VEHICLESIBM announces battery breakthrough
>
> --
OK Don

"Whenever you find yourself on the side of the majority, it is time to
pause and reflect." Mark Twain

"There are three kinds of men: The ones that learns by reading. The few who
learn by observation. The rest of them have to pee on the electric fence
for themselves."

WILL ROGERS, *The Manly Wisdom of Will Rogers*
2013 F150, 18 mpg
2017 Subaru Legacy, 30 mpg
1957 C182A, 12 mpg - but at 150 mph!
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[MBZ] OT: EV battery breathrough by IBM?

[Andrew Strasfogel via Mercedes]

ELECTRIC VEHICLESIBM announces battery breakthrough

Published: Thursday, December 19, 2019

IBM is developing a safer, more powerful electric battery that promises to
reduce the charging time for electric vehicles and may enhance the
possibility of electric aircraft, the company announced yesterday.

In an interview, Bob Allen, senior manager of materials innovation at IBM's
Almaden laboratory in San Jose, Calif., said the breakthrough came with the
addition of iodine to the lithium-ion battery's chemistry. Two years ago,
the change startled researchers with "just extreme, out-of-the-chute power
density," he said.

As is sometimes the case with breakthroughs, scientists were looking for
something else: a way to protect lithium-ion batteries with a catalyst that
reduced long, whisker-like chemical growths on their anodes. These
"dendrites" caused short-circuits and created a higher potential for
battery fires.

The introduction of new materials also allowed IBM researchers to eliminate
two heavy metals, nickel and cobalt, from the battery's formula, reducing
its cost and expense. There is no mining associated with iodine, Allen
noted, because it can be extracted from seawater.

"We think of this now as not just a research project; we are really focused
on pivoting to production," explained Allen, who said it led IBM to develop
a consortium of companies that could help produce the upgraded battery in
two to three years.

The group includes Mercedes-Benz Research and Development North America,
which is developing electric cars, and Central Glass Co. Ltd., a Japanese
company that is a major manufacturer of battery electrolyte, a substance
that produces an electrically conducting solution when dissolved in water.
Sidus, a Silicon Valley company, will manufacture the new battery.

Because the battery would be able to store more power, Allen predicted that
EV owners could fast-charge the battery, giving it 80% of its power within
five minutes. That's about how long it takes to fill up a gasoline-powered
car.

In a statement released yesterday, IBM claims that when its battery is
"optimized" for use in aircraft, it will outperform "the most powerful
lithium-ion batteries available." Currently, there are no cost-competitive,
low-carbon fuels or engines that can propel passenger planes.

The company also said its proposed battery has a relatively low
flammability, which would give larger versions of the battery a safety
factor that could help utilities store more electricity from solar and wind
farms. Over the last two years, South Korean utilities have experienced 23
lithium-ion battery fires.

In April, there was a fire and explosion at a battery facility connected to
a utility's solar power array west of Phoenix. It sent a policeman and
several firemen to local hospitals. Investigators in the United States and
South Korea have not isolated a single cause for the battery fires.

Research into IBM's battery chemistry was helped by an "atomic force
microscope" that enabled scientists to examine the battery's operation at
the molecular level. "What we have is a battery that looks incredibly
compelling that has a lot of interesting attributes," said Allen.

According to the IBM statement, the new battery stems from the development
of "three new and different proprietary materials," which do not appear to
have been used in previous batteries. It also noted that cobalt, used in
current batteries, has a "sourcing concern" because it is found in central
Africa, where some companies use child labor to manually dig it out of the
ground.

Previously, IBM's Almaden laboratory pioneered a process to make integrated
circuits, which is now used worldwide.
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Re: [MBZ] OT EV airplanes in the near future

[Mountain Man via Mercedes]

Craig wrote:
> Again, money and politics ...

That is the elixir du jour.
Okay, MrScienceEngineer - how do these things sort if this scene is flat?
Tin

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Re: [MBZ] OT EV airplanes in the near future

[Craig via Mercedes]

On Sun, 7 Apr 2019 16:02:08 -0400 (EDT) Mitch Haley via Mercedes
 wrote:

> But then we discovered that R134a was a greenhouse gas, not to mention
> a cheap commodity item like R12 used to be, so now we need R1234yf,
> which fortunately can be purchased for less than $100/lb now that it's
> in wide distribution. https://www.amazon.com/dp/B07BBXYFN9

Not only that, the condenser (and maybe the evaporator) has such fine
holes that if you need to replace the compressor, you also need to
replace the condenser (and maybe the evaporator) because it's impossible
to clean it out.

Again, money and politics ...


Craig

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Re: [MBZ] OT EV airplanes in the near future

[Craig via Mercedes]

On Sun, 7 Apr 2019 15:49:22 -0400 archer75--- via Mercedes
 wrote:

> Luckily someone discovered that R-12 freon was the culprit, and DuPont
> just happened to have a factory ready to make r-134a, so the government
> banned r-12 and saved us from freezing.

Get my boots so I can wade through the sarcasm!

Actually it was the "ozone hole" over the antarctic. Interesting, that
ozone, produced by ultraviolet light from the sun, decreased when it was
dark during the winter ...

You don't hear anything about the "ozone hole" nowadays; it was really
important wasn't it?


> Since global heating is now the problem, it would seem that if we all
> started using R-12 again, the resultant global cooling would solve the
> problem and we wouldn't have to worry about CO2. Gerry

All of this involves money and politics, but nothing related to cooling
and warming.


Craig

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Re: [MBZ] OT EV airplanes in the near future

[Mitch Haley via Mercedes]

> On April 7, 2019 at 3:49 PM archer75--- via Mercedes  
> wrote:
> 
> 
> Luckily someone discovered that R-12 freon was the culprit, and DuPont just 
> happened to have a factory ready to make r-134a, so the government banned r-12
> and saved us from freezing.
> 
> Since global heating is now the problem, it would seem that if we all started 
> using R-12 again, the resultant global cooling would solve the problem and we 
> wouldn't have to worry about CO2.

But then we discovered that R134a was a greenhouse gas, not to mention a cheap 
commodity item like R12 used to be, so now we need R1234yf, which fortunately 
can be purchased for less than $100/lb now that it's in wide distribution. 
https://www.amazon.com/dp/B07BBXYFN9

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Re: [MBZ] OT EV airplanes in the near future

[archer75--- via Mercedes]

Clay Monroe wrote:
> That was not on the curricula in my elementary school.  I did not learn of 
> that until Maggie Thatcher wanted to undermine the coal miners.  Until that 
> time, we were all going to freeze in the coming ice ages.  There was  much 
> undisputed science supporting that fact.

Luckily someone discovered that R-12 freon was the culprit, and DuPont just 
happened to have a factory ready to make r-134a, so the government banned r-12
and saved us from freezing.

Since global heating is now the problem, it would seem that if we all started 
using R-12 again, the resultant global cooling would solve the problem and we 
wouldn't have to worry about CO2.
Gerry

---
This email has been checked for viruses by AVG.
https://www.avg.com


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Re: [MBZ] OT EV airplanes in the near future

[Karl Wittnebel via Mercedes]

The reason you cant eat sushi every day without developing mercury
poisoning is coal fired power. The ash falls on the ocean and plankton eat
it. It gets concentrated on it's way up the food chain until it ends up
inside tuna and other large fish.

All human activities have an impact. As the old canard goes: Save the Earth
- Kill yourself.

In other news, Mercedes is getting over 50% thermal efficiency from its f1
engine now. The exhaust turbine spins a generator, which feeds an electric
motor on the crank. They had to work very hard to get over 50% apparently.
Pretty cool.

On Fri, Apr 5, 2019, 1:38 PM Clay Monroe via Mercedes 
wrote:

> I have seen coal power plant.  There are stacks, but all that came out was
> steam.  Build right close to the coal bed, but that stuff was too full of
> sulfur.  The thing takes a train load of WY coal each day to run.  That is
> 100 rail cars of coal.  Each day.  More coal dust on the rail bed than ever
> made it to the air.  Much more smoke created tailgating football games.
>
> clay monroe
>
> > I turned my computer upside down and shook it, but the bookmark for what
> I'm looking for didn't fall out.
>
>
>
> > On Apr 4, 2019, at 8:12 PM, Curley McLain via Mercedes <
> mercedes@okiebenz.com> wrote:
> >
> > HAVE YOU actually SEEN a coal fired power plant?
> >
> >
> > Clue:  there is no black smoke
> >
> >
> > BTW: Trim thy posts!
> >
> > Andrew Strasfogel via Mercedes wrote on 4/4/19 1:53 PM:
> >> So if I understand you correctly, if there is one single little white
> lie,
> >> that would offend you more than relying on coal-fired emissions which
> would
> >> pollute the air and shorten your life span. Is that correct?
> >>
> >>
> >
> >
> > ___
> > http://www.okiebenz.com
> >
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> >
> > To Unsubscribe or change delivery options go to:
> > http://mail.okiebenz.com/mailman/listinfo/mercedes_okiebenz.com
> >
>
>
> ___
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>
> To Unsubscribe or change delivery options go to:
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>
>
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Re: [MBZ] OT EV airplanes in the near future

[Clay Monroe via Mercedes]

That was not on the curricula in my elementary school.  I did not learn of that 
until Maggie Thatcher wanted to undermine the coal miners.  Until that time, we 
were all going to freeze in the coming ice ages.  There was  much undisputed 
science supporting that fact.

I did learn that plants like CO2.  Maybe we need more plants.  Let us bulldoze 
the swamp on the Potomac and plant a forest there instead.  No more heated 
bloviation.

clay monroe

> I turned my computer upside down and shook it, but the bookmark for what I'm 
> looking for didn't fall out.



> On Apr 6, 2019, at 8:53 AM, Andrew Strasfogel via Mercedes 
>  wrote:
> 
> CO2 is a greenhouse gas that is warming the planet. Go back to kindergarten.

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Re: [MBZ] OT EV ...

[Curt Raymond via Mercedes]

It probably has a battery of some sort inside which has died. Things like solar 
yard lights use AA batteries which respond well to charging in a "real" battery 
charger. They also do very well with NiMH replacement batteries.
Curt

Sent from Yahoo Mail on Android 
 
  On Sat, Apr 6, 2019 at 12:29 PM, Mountain Man via 
Mercedes wrote:   --FT wrote:
> The sun shines continuously a few thousand miles away
...
> Full disclosure:  My first grown-up job was working for Peter Glaser...

A PV question.  PV kitchen device supposedly manufactured in der
FaderLand was acquired but does not work.  What are the primary
elements of a PV device?  PV panel, some sort of storage (capacitor?),
small motor, other...
What can be repaired? ... new capacitor? new PV array? new motor? What
plan of attack would you entertain? aside from toss in to the grand
wasteland of humanity, DerDump.  It is not worth $5... Anyone?  What
voltage do PV devices run? 1.5v? 9v? so the motor could be tested.
What voltage do the PV array produce? so output can be tested.  Can a
small charge be dumped on to the capacitor? to see if that element is
worthwhile.
Details: Made in Germany by SOLARC, Solait milk froth device seemingly
never used but old.
Thanks DIY guys.
tin

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Re: [MBZ] OT EV airplanes in the near future

[G Mann via Mercedes]

To much CO2? No wonder, entire forests are now cut down, to build housing
developments, which are built on what was once crop land, which all had
PLANTS in abundance that consumed CO2... Both housing developments and land
use which did consume CO2 and produce O2 [product of plant growth] have
been brought about by the exponential size increase of CITIES and City
populations, which has disrupted the earths natural balance.

Failure to recognize and address the root causes at the root level is just
that, Failure.  What level of impact could be made if entire cities were
demolished and all residents moved to work farms that produced CO2
breathing plants?  Want to "save the planet"? The evil coal fired electric
plants only exist to sell electricity to cities and city dwellers. Where
are the highest population of cars? Cities. SMOG? Cities.


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<#DAB4FAD8-2DD7-40BB-A1B8-4E2AA1F9FDF2>

On Sat, Apr 6, 2019 at 11:17 AM G Mann  wrote:

> The most dangerous gas on the planet regularly overdosed is intestinal gas
> It requires the head to be inserted firmly within the anal orifice and thus
> becomes the sole source gas inhaled, which has become increasingly popular
> in modern society.
> Once so ingested, all other gasses become evil and deadly.
>
> Apparently, the only known cure to date is the regular ingestion of Diesel
> exhaust gases from a pre 1987 Mercedes Diesel while repairing all known
> mechanical issues. Alternative to that, driving said Mercedes at well above
> the speed limit, with all windows down and "air blowing cold", is found to
> be therapeutic.
> [All in good fun folks, If I have not insulted anyone yet, I'll get to you
> soon]
>
>
> 
>  Virus-free.
> www.avast.com
> 
> <#m_1504705412937233764_DAB4FAD8-2DD7-40BB-A1B8-4E2AA1F9FDF2>
>
> On Sat, Apr 6, 2019 at 4:54 AM Andrew Strasfogel via Mercedes <
> mercedes@okiebenz.com> wrote:
>
>> And CO2 and NOX.
>>
>> On Fri, Apr 5, 2019, 9:25 PM Curley McLain via Mercedes <
>> mercedes@okiebenz.com> wrote:
>>
>> > mostly water vapor in the US of A.  I can't say what's happening in
>> Canada.
>> >
>> > Randy Bennell via Mercedes wrote on 4/5/19 10:37 AM:
>> > > On 04/04/2019 11:12 PM, Curley McLain via Mercedes wrote:
>> > >> HAVE YOU actually SEEN a coal fired power plant?
>> > >>
>> > >>
>> > >> Clue:  there is no black smoke
>> > >
>> > >
>> > > But the real question is "what is it spewing into the air?"
>> > >
>> > >
>> >
>> >
>> > ___
>> > http://www.okiebenz.com
>> >
>> > To search list archives http://www.okiebenz.com/archive/
>> >
>> > To Unsubscribe or change delivery options go to:
>> > http://mail.okiebenz.com/mailman/listinfo/mercedes_okiebenz.com
>> >
>> >
>> ___
>> http://www.okiebenz.com
>>
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>>
>> To Unsubscribe or change delivery options go to:
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>>
>>
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Re: [MBZ] OT EV airplanes in the near future

[Craig via Mercedes]

On Sat, 6 Apr 2019 12:39:14 -0500 OK Don via Mercedes
 wrote:

> No, see
> https://www.climate.gov/news-features/understanding-climate/climate-change-atmospheric-carbon-dioxide
> 
> "Without this natural greenhouse effect
> ,
> Earth’s average annual temperature would be below freezing instead of
> close to 60°F."
> 
> > CO2 is a greenhouse gas that is warming the planet. Go back to
> > kindergarten.

The most significant greehouse gas, by far, is water vapor.

The direct effect of a doubling of C02 from the pre-industrial
concentration of 280 ppm to 560 ppm is well understood and worth less
than 1 degree C.  Since the warming effect from increasing concentrations
of CO2 is logarithmic and we're already at 385 ppm, we will already have
seen more than 0.5 degree increase in the last century from CO2 with zero
positive feedback.  So to assume anything more than a very small positive
feedback, the modelers have to attribute all of the observed ~1 degree
warming in the last century to CO2 + nonlinear CO2-driven H20 increases.
And that 1 degree assumes no data fudging which may not be a good
assumption.  Attributing all of the last century's warming to CO2 and CO2
driven processes is highly inconsistent with the historical thermometric
and surrogate temperature records which all show steady warming since
about the year 1700, a time well before CO2 started to increase.  Large
positive feedbacks are also highly inconsistent with many interglacial
warming periods inferred from ice-core isotope ratio data.

No, the historical record flat rules out any large non-linear positive
feedback. The historical record, however, doesn't rule out very small,
zero, or even negative feedbacks.  Therefore, going from 385 to 560 ppm
can be worth at most little more than about 0.5 degree C.  Completing
this first doubling will take 50+ more years, adding at most only 0.1
degree C per decade - lost in the noise.  Because of the logarithmic
effect, the second doubling will cause even less than 0.5 degrees of
additional warming.

There clearly isn't enough oil and natural gas left in the ground to get
to the first doubling, so isn't coal the only possible long term
problem?  And don't we have at least 50 to 100 years to convert coal
power plants to nuclear before anything remotely catastrophic can
happen?

Here's another anecdote:  Many glaciers in the continental US were
completely gone by the year 1300, coinciding quite well with the end of
the Medieval Warming period.  A specific example is the Grand Teton
glaciers in Wyoming.  Those glaciers are known to have regrown (from
zero) during the Little Ice Age from ~1300 to ~1850 (even though the
earth warmed from ~1700 to ~1850, it was still cold enough to grow
glaciers in Wyoming).  They have been in decline since about 1850.  What
caused the Medieval Warming Period? Certainly not CO2!!!


Craig

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Re: [MBZ] OT EV airplanes in the near future

[G Mann via Mercedes]

The most dangerous gas on the planet regularly overdosed is intestinal gas
It requires the head to be inserted firmly within the anal orifice and thus
becomes the sole source gas inhaled, which has become increasingly popular
in modern society.
Once so ingested, all other gasses become evil and deadly.

Apparently, the only known cure to date is the regular ingestion of Diesel
exhaust gases from a pre 1987 Mercedes Diesel while repairing all known
mechanical issues. Alternative to that, driving said Mercedes at well above
the speed limit, with all windows down and "air blowing cold", is found to
be therapeutic.
[All in good fun folks, If I have not insulted anyone yet, I'll get to you
soon]


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<#DAB4FAD8-2DD7-40BB-A1B8-4E2AA1F9FDF2>

On Sat, Apr 6, 2019 at 4:54 AM Andrew Strasfogel via Mercedes <
mercedes@okiebenz.com> wrote:

> And CO2 and NOX.
>
> On Fri, Apr 5, 2019, 9:25 PM Curley McLain via Mercedes <
> mercedes@okiebenz.com> wrote:
>
> > mostly water vapor in the US of A.  I can't say what's happening in
> Canada.
> >
> > Randy Bennell via Mercedes wrote on 4/5/19 10:37 AM:
> > > On 04/04/2019 11:12 PM, Curley McLain via Mercedes wrote:
> > >> HAVE YOU actually SEEN a coal fired power plant?
> > >>
> > >>
> > >> Clue:  there is no black smoke
> > >
> > >
> > > But the real question is "what is it spewing into the air?"
> > >
> > >
> >
> >
> > ___
> > http://www.okiebenz.com
> >
> > To search list archives http://www.okiebenz.com/archive/
> >
> > To Unsubscribe or change delivery options go to:
> > http://mail.okiebenz.com/mailman/listinfo/mercedes_okiebenz.com
> >
> >
> ___
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>
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>
> To Unsubscribe or change delivery options go to:
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>
>
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Re: [MBZ] OT EV airplanes in the near future

[OK Don via Mercedes]

No, see
https://www.climate.gov/news-features/understanding-climate/climate-change-atmospheric-carbon-dioxide

"Without this natural greenhouse effect
,
Earth’s average annual temperature would be below freezing instead of close
to 60°F."

It's all in the balance - too much, or not enough of anything, and we're in
trouble.

On Sat, Apr 6, 2019 at 11:54 AM Andrew Strasfogel via Mercedes <
mercedes@okiebenz.com> wrote:

> CO2 is a greenhouse gas that is warming the planet. Go back to
> kindergarten.
>
> On Sat, Apr 6, 2019, 10:27 AM Curley McLain via Mercedes <
> mercedes@okiebenz.com> wrote:
>
> > CO2 is necessary for life to exist on this orb.  Without CO2, plants
> > die.   Without plant life, you die.
> >
> > Be careful what you wish for.  It MIGHT come true.
> >
> > Our plants USED to get necessary sulfur from the air.   The overzealous
> > EPA regulated almost all sulfur out of the air.   Now farms must add
> > sulfur to keep plants healthy.   GUess where most of the sulfur comes
> > from
> >
> > Andrew Strasfogel wrote on 4/6/19 6:53 AM:
> > > And CO2 and NOX.
> > >
> >
> >
> > ___
> > http://www.okiebenz.com
> >
> > To search list archives http://www.okiebenz.com/archive/
> >
> > To Unsubscribe or change delivery options go to:
> > http://mail.okiebenz.com/mailman/listinfo/mercedes_okiebenz.com
> >
> >
> ___
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>
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>
> To Unsubscribe or change delivery options go to:
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>
>

-- 
OK Don

*“Travel is fatal to prejudice, bigotry and narrow-mindedness, and many of
our people need it sorely on these accounts.”* – Mark Twain

"There are three kinds of men: The ones that learns by reading. The few who
learn by observation. The rest of them have to pee on the electric fence
for themselves."

WILL ROGERS, *The Manly Wisdom of Will Rogers*
2013 F150, 18 mpg
2017 Subaru Legacy, 30 mpg
1957 C182A, 12 mpg - but at 150 mph!
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Re: [MBZ] OT EV ...

[OK Don via Mercedes]

Short answer - it depends.

Typical motor powered PV devices store electrons in a rechargeable battery.
That would be the first place I'd look - an old dead battery will stop
everything from working. A DIY guy would take it apart before doing
anything else to see what's in there ...

On Sat, Apr 6, 2019 at 11:29 AM Mountain Man via Mercedes <
mercedes@okiebenz.com> wrote:

> --FT wrote:
> > The sun shines continuously a few thousand miles away
> ...
> > Full disclosure:  My first grown-up job was working for Peter Glaser...
>
> A PV question.  PV kitchen device supposedly manufactured in der
> FaderLand was acquired but does not work.  What are the primary
> elements of a PV device?  PV panel, some sort of storage (capacitor?),
> small motor, other...
> What can be repaired? ... new capacitor? new PV array? new motor? What
> plan of attack would you entertain? aside from toss in to the grand
> wasteland of humanity, DerDump.  It is not worth $5... Anyone?  What
> voltage do PV devices run? 1.5v? 9v? so the motor could be tested.
> What voltage do the PV array produce? so output can be tested.  Can a
> small charge be dumped on to the capacitor? to see if that element is
> worthwhile.
> Details: Made in Germany by SOLARC, Solait milk froth device seemingly
> never used but old.
> Thanks DIY guys.
> tin
>
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>
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>
> To Unsubscribe or change delivery options go to:
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>

-- 
OK Don

*“Travel is fatal to prejudice, bigotry and narrow-mindedness, and many of
our people need it sorely on these accounts.”* – Mark Twain

"There are three kinds of men: The ones that learns by reading. The few who
learn by observation. The rest of them have to pee on the electric fence
for themselves."

WILL ROGERS, *The Manly Wisdom of Will Rogers*
2013 F150, 18 mpg
2017 Subaru Legacy, 30 mpg
1957 C182A, 12 mpg - but at 150 mph!
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Re: [MBZ] OT EV airplanes in the near future

[Andrew Strasfogel via Mercedes]

Dan could you please shut off this idiotic discussion?

On Sat, Apr 6, 2019, 12:53 PM Andrew Strasfogel 
wrote:

> CO2 is a greenhouse gas that is warming the planet. Go back to
> kindergarten.
>
> On Sat, Apr 6, 2019, 10:27 AM Curley McLain via Mercedes <
> mercedes@okiebenz.com> wrote:
>
>> CO2 is necessary for life to exist on this orb.  Without CO2, plants
>> die.   Without plant life, you die.
>>
>> Be careful what you wish for.  It MIGHT come true.
>>
>> Our plants USED to get necessary sulfur from the air.   The overzealous
>> EPA regulated almost all sulfur out of the air.   Now farms must add
>> sulfur to keep plants healthy.   GUess where most of the sulfur comes
>> from
>>
>> Andrew Strasfogel wrote on 4/6/19 6:53 AM:
>> > And CO2 and NOX.
>> >
>>
>>
>> ___
>> http://www.okiebenz.com
>>
>> To search list archives http://www.okiebenz.com/archive/
>>
>> To Unsubscribe or change delivery options go to:
>> http://mail.okiebenz.com/mailman/listinfo/mercedes_okiebenz.com
>>
>>
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Re: [MBZ] OT EV airplanes in the near future

[Andrew Strasfogel via Mercedes]

CO2 is a greenhouse gas that is warming the planet. Go back to kindergarten.

On Sat, Apr 6, 2019, 10:27 AM Curley McLain via Mercedes <
mercedes@okiebenz.com> wrote:

> CO2 is necessary for life to exist on this orb.  Without CO2, plants
> die.   Without plant life, you die.
>
> Be careful what you wish for.  It MIGHT come true.
>
> Our plants USED to get necessary sulfur from the air.   The overzealous
> EPA regulated almost all sulfur out of the air.   Now farms must add
> sulfur to keep plants healthy.   GUess where most of the sulfur comes
> from
>
> Andrew Strasfogel wrote on 4/6/19 6:53 AM:
> > And CO2 and NOX.
> >
>
>
> ___
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>
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>
> To Unsubscribe or change delivery options go to:
> http://mail.okiebenz.com/mailman/listinfo/mercedes_okiebenz.com
>
>
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Re: [MBZ] OT EV ...

[Mountain Man via Mercedes]

--FT wrote:
> The sun shines continuously a few thousand miles away
...
> Full disclosure:  My first grown-up job was working for Peter Glaser...

A PV question.  PV kitchen device supposedly manufactured in der
FaderLand was acquired but does not work.  What are the primary
elements of a PV device?  PV panel, some sort of storage (capacitor?),
small motor, other...
What can be repaired? ... new capacitor? new PV array? new motor? What
plan of attack would you entertain? aside from toss in to the grand
wasteland of humanity, DerDump.  It is not worth $5... Anyone?  What
voltage do PV devices run? 1.5v? 9v? so the motor could be tested.
What voltage do the PV array produce? so output can be tested.  Can a
small charge be dumped on to the capacitor? to see if that element is
worthwhile.
Details: Made in Germany by SOLARC, Solait milk froth device seemingly
never used but old.
Thanks DIY guys.
tin

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Re: [MBZ] OT EV airplanes in the near future

[Curley McLain via Mercedes]

CO2 is necessary for life to exist on this orb.  Without CO2, plants 
die.   Without plant life, you die.


Be careful what you wish for.  It MIGHT come true.

Our plants USED to get necessary sulfur from the air.   The overzealous 
EPA regulated almost all sulfur out of the air.   Now farms must add 
sulfur to keep plants healthy.   GUess where most of the sulfur comes 
from


Andrew Strasfogel wrote on 4/6/19 6:53 AM:

And CO2 and NOX.




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Re: [MBZ] OT EV airplanes in the near future

[Andrew Strasfogel via Mercedes]

And CO2 and NOX.

On Fri, Apr 5, 2019, 9:25 PM Curley McLain via Mercedes <
mercedes@okiebenz.com> wrote:

> mostly water vapor in the US of A.  I can't say what's happening in Canada.
>
> Randy Bennell via Mercedes wrote on 4/5/19 10:37 AM:
> > On 04/04/2019 11:12 PM, Curley McLain via Mercedes wrote:
> >> HAVE YOU actually SEEN a coal fired power plant?
> >>
> >>
> >> Clue:  there is no black smoke
> >
> >
> > But the real question is "what is it spewing into the air?"
> >
> >
>
>
> ___
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>
> To search list archives http://www.okiebenz.com/archive/
>
> To Unsubscribe or change delivery options go to:
> http://mail.okiebenz.com/mailman/listinfo/mercedes_okiebenz.com
>
>
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Re: [MBZ] OT EV airplanes in the near future

[Curley McLain via Mercedes]

mostly water vapor in the US of A.  I can't say what's happening in Canada.

Randy Bennell via Mercedes wrote on 4/5/19 10:37 AM:

On 04/04/2019 11:12 PM, Curley McLain via Mercedes wrote:

HAVE YOU actually SEEN a coal fired power plant?


Clue:  there is no black smoke



But the real question is "what is it spewing into the air?"





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Re: [MBZ] OT EV airplanes in the near future

[Clay Monroe via Mercedes]

I have seen coal power plant.  There are stacks, but all that came out was 
steam.  Build right close to the coal bed, but that stuff was too full of 
sulfur.  The thing takes a train load of WY coal each day to run.  That is 100 
rail cars of coal.  Each day.  More coal dust on the rail bed than ever made it 
to the air.  Much more smoke created tailgating football games.

clay monroe

> I turned my computer upside down and shook it, but the bookmark for what I'm 
> looking for didn't fall out.



> On Apr 4, 2019, at 8:12 PM, Curley McLain via Mercedes 
>  wrote:
> 
> HAVE YOU actually SEEN a coal fired power plant?
> 
> 
> Clue:  there is no black smoke
> 
> 
> BTW: Trim thy posts!
> 
> Andrew Strasfogel via Mercedes wrote on 4/4/19 1:53 PM:
>> So if I understand you correctly, if there is one single little white lie,
>> that would offend you more than relying on coal-fired emissions which would
>> pollute the air and shorten your life span. Is that correct?
>> 
>> 
> 
> 
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Re: [MBZ] OT EV airplanes in the near future -- POWER SOURCES

[Clay Monroe via Mercedes]

That sounds like the homeless issue mixed with the safe space snow flakes.  
Both populations are not going to breed.  The homeless do not use much plug in 
energy, and the snowflakes want to save all the energy.  That just leaves the 
religious folk to increase the population.

clay monroe

> I turned my computer upside down and shook it, but the bookmark for what I'm 
> looking for didn't fall out.



> On Apr 4, 2019, at 3:58 PM, G Mann via Mercedes  wrote:
> 
> How do you build an elephant?
> 
> Order a mouse, built under government contract...
> ;))
> A few billion spent in government programs to stimulate ignorance and
> inbreeding would reduce the population to the point where we need less
> energy... Ohh wait we already have those in place.. ;)) [Sarcasm
> off]

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Re: [MBZ] OT EV airplanes in the near future

[G Mann via Mercedes]

Due to the current set of rules, which I'm not up to speed on, I can't give
a factual answer to that question. At the early stages, it was all
collected and sold off to be further processed by companies that did
further refining. How successful those companies were or are in yielding
viable secondary product is above my pay grade . I do recall they had
government support with grants, research, etc. Being a government program,
I'm sure someone has managed to milk it into infinity.


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<#DAB4FAD8-2DD7-40BB-A1B8-4E2AA1F9FDF2>

On Fri, Apr 5, 2019 at 11:23 AM Meade Dillon via Mercedes <
mercedes@okiebenz.com> wrote:

> Grant - what happens to the uranium, lead, mercury that is in the coal?  Is
> that all captured, mostly captured, somewhat captured?
> -
> Max
> Charleston SC
>
>
> On Fri, Apr 5, 2019 at 12:21 PM G Mann via Mercedes  >
> wrote:
>
> > Answer: Nothing that is above the limits of emissions imposed by EPA. Not
> > for over 30 years.
> > More than 30 years ago, I was involved in the design, development, and
> > production of some of the first "Scrubber Systems" to capture coal
> > pollutants to contain and re-purpose them without emissions into the
> > atmosphere or environment, pursuant to then existent EPA Rules.
> > While I moved on to other projects, I remained in the loop re such
> > equipment and EPA requirements, which became ever more stringent and
> costly
> > to comply with.
> >
> >
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Re: [MBZ] OT EV airplanes in the near future

[Floyd Thursby via Mercedes]

There are big bag houses that capture the particulate which is then 
"disposed" of in some fashion that is supposed to be 
environmentally-acceptable.  We had some big coal ash pond breeches 
recently right here in our home state, leading to a lot of pollutant 
(which includes all that stuff you mention) release, and there is a big 
move to get these ponds cleaned out so they do not pollute the waterways 
anymore.


--FT

On 4/5/19 2:22 PM, Meade Dillon via Mercedes wrote:

Grant - what happens to the uranium, lead, mercury that is in the coal?  Is
that all captured, mostly captured, somewhat captured?
-
Max
Charleston SC


On Fri, Apr 5, 2019 at 12:21 PM G Mann via Mercedes 
wrote:


Answer: Nothing that is above the limits of emissions imposed by EPA. Not
for over 30 years.
More than 30 years ago, I was involved in the design, development, and
production of some of the first "Scrubber Systems" to capture coal
pollutants to contain and re-purpose them without emissions into the
atmosphere or environment, pursuant to then existent EPA Rules.
While I moved on to other projects, I remained in the loop re such
equipment and EPA requirements, which became ever more stringent and costly
to comply with.



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--
--FT


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Re: [MBZ] OT EV airplanes in the near future

[Meade Dillon via Mercedes]

Grant - what happens to the uranium, lead, mercury that is in the coal?  Is
that all captured, mostly captured, somewhat captured?
-
Max
Charleston SC


On Fri, Apr 5, 2019 at 12:21 PM G Mann via Mercedes 
wrote:

> Answer: Nothing that is above the limits of emissions imposed by EPA. Not
> for over 30 years.
> More than 30 years ago, I was involved in the design, development, and
> production of some of the first "Scrubber Systems" to capture coal
> pollutants to contain and re-purpose them without emissions into the
> atmosphere or environment, pursuant to then existent EPA Rules.
> While I moved on to other projects, I remained in the loop re such
> equipment and EPA requirements, which became ever more stringent and costly
> to comply with.
>
>
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Re: [MBZ] OT EV airplanes in the near future

[Randy Bennell via Mercedes]

On 05/04/2019 11:20 AM, G Mann via Mercedes wrote:

Answer: Nothing that is above the limits of emissions imposed by EPA. Not
for over 30 years.



However, EPA does not apply in China, India, etc but the winds still 
blow whatever comes out of the stack to places near and far.


When proponents of electric vehicles proclaim that there are no 
emissions, they are essentially talking about exhaust only. They prefer 
not to think about other forms of pollution.



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Re: [MBZ] OT EV airplanes in the near future

[G Mann via Mercedes]

Answer: Nothing that is above the limits of emissions imposed by EPA. Not
for over 30 years.
More than 30 years ago, I was involved in the design, development, and
production of some of the first "Scrubber Systems" to capture coal
pollutants to contain and re-purpose them without emissions into the
atmosphere or environment, pursuant to then existent EPA Rules.
While I moved on to other projects, I remained in the loop re such
equipment and EPA requirements, which became ever more stringent and costly
to comply with.
EPA inspectors of coal fired generation plants are permanently assigned, it
is a "Career Path Move" . Monitoring is daily, with testing and imposition
of huge fines for each hour of non-compliance. The "EPA Man" has the power
to shut the plant down at any time and it can't be re-opened until the
violation (s) are fixed. Not a happy place to be, in a coal plant that is
out of compliance.

But then, you can drive your EV vehicle secure that YOU are not polluting,
right?

I have not heard much lately about the Mercedes EV vehicle development. Any
news on that front?


Virus-free.
www.avast.com

<#DAB4FAD8-2DD7-40BB-A1B8-4E2AA1F9FDF2>

On Fri, Apr 5, 2019 at 8:38 AM Randy Bennell via Mercedes <
mercedes@okiebenz.com> wrote:

> On 04/04/2019 11:12 PM, Curley McLain via Mercedes wrote:
> > HAVE YOU actually SEEN a coal fired power plant?
> >
> >
> > Clue:  there is no black smoke
>
>
> But the real question is "what is it spewing into the air?"
>
>
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Re: [MBZ] OT EV airplanes in the near future

[Randy Bennell via Mercedes]

On 04/04/2019 11:12 PM, Curley McLain via Mercedes wrote:

HAVE YOU actually SEEN a coal fired power plant?


Clue:  there is no black smoke



But the real question is "what is it spewing into the air?"


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Re: [MBZ] OT EV airplanes in the near future -- POWER SOURCES

[Curley McLain via Mercedes]

Hear Here!

Great sermon!  SHort!

Floyd Thursby via Mercedes wrote on 4/4/19 4:22 PM:

The sun shines continuously a few thousand miles away

https://www.wired.com/2014/04/solar-power-satellites-a-visual-introduction/ 



Full disclosure:  My first grown-up job was working for Peter Glaser 
on SPS-related work.  His sweet secretary facilitated that job after 
we spoke a coupla times on the phone.  I think I wrote some of the 
content of one or two of those referenced reports.  If anyone had any 
vision these days for truly remarkable challenges rather than being 
mired down in issues about whose flings are being hurt, we 
would be building components for these on the moon and launching to 
LEO where they would be assembled robotically.  No nuclear waste to 
deal with, all the power you could want.


--FT




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Re: [MBZ] OT EV airplanes in the near future

[Curley McLain via Mercedes]

HAVE YOU actually SEEN a coal fired power plant?


Clue:  there is no black smoke


BTW: Trim thy posts!

Andrew Strasfogel via Mercedes wrote on 4/4/19 1:53 PM:

So if I understand you correctly, if there is one single little white lie,
that would offend you more than relying on coal-fired emissions which would
pollute the air and shorten your life span. Is that correct?





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Re: [MBZ] OT EV airplanes in the near future

[Mitch Haley via Mercedes]

> On April 4, 2019 at 10:24 PM Craig via Mercedes  wrote:
> 
>|
>   no?

Si, Senor. 
> 
> \
> What was the denoument of that saga?

They couldn't sell me one unless I produced a CA, OR, or MD driver's license 
with my picture on it. I toyed with the idea of using Andrew for a straw buyer, 
but paying double sales tax kind of killed the deal. What I really wanted was 
to lease one and license it in Oregon, and buy it when the lease was up. You 
don't need an OR license to register a car in OR as it turns out, but GM has 
stricter rules than OR DMV does. They only made the Spark EV because those 
three states required them to sell EVs, and after getting burned on a few 2014s 
that didn't get them CA credits because the buyers didn't keep them in CA for 3 
years, GM got serious about not letting out of state residents buy them. 

A dealer in western Wisconsin had a 2015 with a four digit odometer, lemon law 
car, that they bought at auction and wanted $ for after GM refurbished it. 
I thought about it but passed, it was my least favorite color, and it was the 
LT2 model with the black 'leatherette' upholstery. I wanted a blue, white or 
silver LT1 with blue cloth interior. 

I still think GM deserves a big pat on the back for selling the best engineered 
EV drivetrain on the market in 2014. Even though they never wanted to make it, 
they took great care to make it the best, at least the EV system parts. And 
what they learned from the Sparks probably helped greatly with the design and 
manufacture of the 48 state Bolt. When you compare the Spark EV to other 'we 
had to build it' EVs like the Fiat 500 and the Ford Focus, there's no 
comparison. I feel sorry for the people who bought those things. 
The Leaf is a solid transportation appliance but it's sluggish in comparison to 
the Spark. The Bolt has more motor and battery than the Spark, but I still 
think of it as the crossover SUV of EVs. Bolt is very fast in a straight line 
though, first non-Tesla product I know of that outruns a SparkEV. 

In the end I got the new improved Cruze, bigger, lighter, more aerodynamic than 
the first generation Cruze. Messed up and stuck myself with two of them. Like 
the Leaf it's made more for comfort than for driving excitement. Unlike the 
Leaf it can keep up with a 2.3-16 in a straight line. And my red one can run 
away from a 2.3-16 now that it makes about 200hp from its 85 cubic inches. I'm 
getting about 40mpg driving it to work this week, winds gusting 20-30mph all 
week. Should get 42-43 mpg on my commute now that the weather's halfway warm if 
it wasn't so windy. 

Mitch.

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Re: [MBZ] OT EV airplanes in the near future

[Craig via Mercedes]

On Thu, 4 Apr 2019 21:39:59 -0400 (EDT) Mitch Haley via Mercedes
 wrote:

> When I first heard of California's mandatory "Zero Emissions Vehicle"
> proposal, I immediately started calling EVs "Remote Emissions
> Vehicles", and I've seen to reason to change my terminology. 
   ^
   |
  no?


> And you need to remember, I LIKE the things, tried pretty hard to buy
> one 3 years ago when I discovered Chevy was making one that could do
> 0-60 quicker than an E320 while costing a fraction of a Tesla.

What was the denoument of that saga?


Craig

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Re: [MBZ] OT EV airplanes in the near future

[Mitch Haley via Mercedes]

When I first heard of California's mandatory "Zero Emissions Vehicle" proposal, 
I immediately started calling EVs "Remote Emissions Vehicles", and I've seen to 
reason to change my terminology. 

And you need to remember, I LIKE the things, tried pretty hard to buy one 3 
years ago when I discovered Chevy was making one that could do 0-60 quicker 
than an E320 while costing a fraction of a Tesla.

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Re: [MBZ] OT EV airplanes in the near future

[Jim Cathey via Mercedes]

> What happens to an EV airplane in an EMP event?

Gravity.

-- Jim


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Re: [MBZ] OT EV airplanes in the near future -- POWER SOURCES

[G Mann via Mercedes]

Andrew,
Points taken. The economy of scale for solar has taken large strides in the
past 10 years as production costs for solar panels have dropped and
conversion of light energy to electricity efficiency. per panel, has
increased.
Several large scale solar plants were on the plan prior to 2008 economic
crash, but were canceled. That interest is just now finding funding.

Success will be measured in return on investment. But, only during daylight
hours.. :))

On Thu, Apr 4, 2019 at 4:57 PM Andrew Strasfogel via Mercedes <
mercedes@okiebenz.com> wrote:

> Grant, I beg to differ. Idaho Power has just announced it proposes to
> install utilities scale solar for 2 and a half cents per kilowatt hour. The
> cheapest in history.
>
> On Thu, Apr 4, 2019, 7:47 PM Max Dillon via Mercedes <
> mercedes@okiebenz.com>
> wrote:
>
> > The idea still has merit, perhaps in the future when fossil fuels are
> > depleted.
> >
> > My concern would be the microwave energy, keeping that pointed in a safe
> > direction.
> > --
> > Max Dillon
> > Charleston SC
> >
> > On April 4, 2019 6:28:40 PM EDT, Floyd Thursby via Mercedes <
> > mercedes@okiebenz.com> wrote:
> > >It was all in the reports.  The stuff I worked on had some fairly
> > >realistic numbers on all that, based on what we knew at the time and
> > >some reasonable expectations of the march of technology. One of the
> > >biggest assumptions was the performance of solar photovoltaics going
> > >from maybe 3% efficiency (at the time) to 6% or more, I think that is
> > >sorta typical these days, might be even better than that.  And yes the
> > >photovoltaic arrays do degrade, that was factored in, I recall
> > >something
> > >like continuous upgrades of arrays as part of the process, after a
> > >time.
> > >
> > >While cost projections on anything are worth the paper they are printed
> > >
> > >on, if that, all-up costs on a common basis (including externalities in
> > >
> > >the costs of competing technologies) showed SPS power to be in the
> > >competitive realm, with a major assumption that costs of delivering
> > >payloads to GEO would come down, either in earth->GEO launches or in
> > >moon->GEO launches using lunar materials and propellants (including
> > >"fuelless" launches using a mass driver).  Note that building the
> > >satellites in LEO from earth-launched materials, then using electric
> > >propulsion (argon ion thrusters) to take them to GEO made sense, it
> > >takes awhile but there is plenty of power and time to do it, so no big
> > >deal. Launching stuff "downhill" makes a lot of sense, and when you
> > >have
> > >essentially unlimited resources on the moon with minimal concerns about
> > >
> > >environmental effects (externalities), either from launches or
> > >manufacturing, then it looks even better.
> > >
> > >I talked a coupla years ago to one of my friends/colleagues from that
> > >time about Peter and these ideas, as far as she knew nothing was being
> > >done about it now.  Another colleague with whom we worked, a former
> > >Apollo astronaut, is still alive living in the DC area somewhere, I
> > >have
> > >reached out to him but have never heard back and neither has my friend
> > >(whose good friend was married to him for some time, I guess they
> > >aren't
> > >any more).  I don't know what he is up to these days, he must be way up
> > >
> > >in his 80s now.  I know he kept trying to promote these ideas with
> > >Peter.  There were also some other interesting characters involved,
> > >somewhat peripherally, but kept the ideas "out there."
> > >
> > >As far as low-hanging fruit, yep... but sometimes a visionary can help
> > >reach that higher fruit...
> > >
> > >Sic transit gloria mundi...
> > >
> > >--FT
> > >
> > >On 4/4/19 5:44 PM, G Mann via Mercedes wrote:
> > >> What a grand plan.
> > >> However, after reading the posting in detail, I find no cost per KW
> > >hr.
> > >> projection based on the expected life of the solar orbit array, and
> > >the
> > >> actual cost of building it and maintaining it, both in space and on
> > >the
> > >> ground.
> > >>
> > >> Thus, solar and wind are still "pie in the sky" not connected to the
> > >> reality of real life and mankind as it truly exists.
> > >> As long as there is low hanging fruit to be picked, mankind will pick
> > >it
> > >> first.
> > >>
> > >> On Thu, Apr 4, 2019 at 2:22 PM Floyd Thursby via Mercedes <
> > >> mercedes@okiebenz.com> wrote:
> > >>
> > >>> The sun shines continuously a few thousand miles away
> > >>>
> > >>>
> > >
> >
> https://www.wired.com/2014/04/solar-power-satellites-a-visual-introduction/
> > >>>
> > >>> Full disclosure:  My first grown-up job was working for Peter Glaser
> > >on
> > >>> SPS-related work.  His sweet secretary facilitated that job after we
> > >>> spoke a coupla times on the phone.  I think I wrote some of the
> > >content
> > >>> of one or two of those referenced reports.  If anyone had any vision
> > >>> these days for truly remarkable challenges rather 

Re: [MBZ] OT EV airplanes in the near future -- POWER SOURCES

[G Mann via Mercedes]

How do you build an elephant?

Order a mouse, built under government contract...
;))
A few billion spent in government programs to stimulate ignorance and
inbreeding would reduce the population to the point where we need less
energy... Ohh wait we already have those in place.. ;)) [Sarcasm
off]

On Thu, Apr 4, 2019 at 3:29 PM Floyd Thursby via Mercedes <
mercedes@okiebenz.com> wrote:

> It was all in the reports.  The stuff I worked on had some fairly
> realistic numbers on all that, based on what we knew at the time and
> some reasonable expectations of the march of technology. One of the
> biggest assumptions was the performance of solar photovoltaics going
> from maybe 3% efficiency (at the time) to 6% or more, I think that is
> sorta typical these days, might be even better than that.  And yes the
> photovoltaic arrays do degrade, that was factored in, I recall something
> like continuous upgrades of arrays as part of the process, after a time.
>
> While cost projections on anything are worth the paper they are printed
> on, if that, all-up costs on a common basis (including externalities in
> the costs of competing technologies) showed SPS power to be in the
> competitive realm, with a major assumption that costs of delivering
> payloads to GEO would come down, either in earth->GEO launches or in
> moon->GEO launches using lunar materials and propellants (including
> "fuelless" launches using a mass driver).  Note that building the
> satellites in LEO from earth-launched materials, then using electric
> propulsion (argon ion thrusters) to take them to GEO made sense, it
> takes awhile but there is plenty of power and time to do it, so no big
> deal. Launching stuff "downhill" makes a lot of sense, and when you have
> essentially unlimited resources on the moon with minimal concerns about
> environmental effects (externalities), either from launches or
> manufacturing, then it looks even better.
>
> I talked a coupla years ago to one of my friends/colleagues from that
> time about Peter and these ideas, as far as she knew nothing was being
> done about it now.  Another colleague with whom we worked, a former
> Apollo astronaut, is still alive living in the DC area somewhere, I have
> reached out to him but have never heard back and neither has my friend
> (whose good friend was married to him for some time, I guess they aren't
> any more).  I don't know what he is up to these days, he must be way up
> in his 80s now.  I know he kept trying to promote these ideas with
> Peter.  There were also some other interesting characters involved,
> somewhat peripherally, but kept the ideas "out there."
>
> As far as low-hanging fruit, yep... but sometimes a visionary can help
> reach that higher fruit...
>
> Sic transit gloria mundi...
>
> --FT
>
> On 4/4/19 5:44 PM, G Mann via Mercedes wrote:
> > What a grand plan.
> > However, after reading the posting in detail, I find no cost per KW hr.
> > projection based on the expected life of the solar orbit array, and the
> > actual cost of building it and maintaining it, both in space and on the
> > ground.
> >
> > Thus, solar and wind are still "pie in the sky" not connected to the
> > reality of real life and mankind as it truly exists.
> > As long as there is low hanging fruit to be picked, mankind will pick it
> > first.
> >
> > On Thu, Apr 4, 2019 at 2:22 PM Floyd Thursby via Mercedes <
> > mercedes@okiebenz.com> wrote:
> >
> >> The sun shines continuously a few thousand miles away
> >>
> >>
> https://www.wired.com/2014/04/solar-power-satellites-a-visual-introduction/
> >>
> >> Full disclosure:  My first grown-up job was working for Peter Glaser on
> >> SPS-related work.  His sweet secretary facilitated that job after we
> >> spoke a coupla times on the phone.  I think I wrote some of the content
> >> of one or two of those referenced reports.  If anyone had any vision
> >> these days for truly remarkable challenges rather than being mired down
> >> in issues about whose flings are being hurt, we would be
> >> building components for these on the moon and launching to LEO where
> >> they would be assembled robotically.  No nuclear waste to deal with, all
> >> the power you could want.
> >>
> >> --FT
> >>
> >> On 4/4/19 4:25 PM, Andrew Strasfogel via Mercedes wrote:
> >>> EV vehicles are not a dream, Randy. There are thousands of them and
> >>> thousands more are selling every month. In Manitoba, where do you get
> >> your
> >>> power? The answer is hydro. You are like Curt in that you expect
> >> perfection
> >>> all at once. The trend is definitely towards solar and wind. I agree
> with
> >>> you about collateral damage to birds from the wind turbines, but that
> >>> problem is going to be overcome with offshore wind development, where
> it
> >>> has less effect on birds.
> >>>
> >>> And the tired old song about the Sun not shining at night will be
> >> overcome
> >>> through the evolution of storage batteries. Many utilities are already
> >>> 

Re: [MBZ] OT EV airplanes in the near future -- POWER SOURCES

[Andrew Strasfogel via Mercedes]

Grant, I beg to differ. Idaho Power has just announced it proposes to
install utilities scale solar for 2 and a half cents per kilowatt hour. The
cheapest in history.

On Thu, Apr 4, 2019, 7:47 PM Max Dillon via Mercedes 
wrote:

> The idea still has merit, perhaps in the future when fossil fuels are
> depleted.
>
> My concern would be the microwave energy, keeping that pointed in a safe
> direction.
> --
> Max Dillon
> Charleston SC
>
> On April 4, 2019 6:28:40 PM EDT, Floyd Thursby via Mercedes <
> mercedes@okiebenz.com> wrote:
> >It was all in the reports.  The stuff I worked on had some fairly
> >realistic numbers on all that, based on what we knew at the time and
> >some reasonable expectations of the march of technology. One of the
> >biggest assumptions was the performance of solar photovoltaics going
> >from maybe 3% efficiency (at the time) to 6% or more, I think that is
> >sorta typical these days, might be even better than that.  And yes the
> >photovoltaic arrays do degrade, that was factored in, I recall
> >something
> >like continuous upgrades of arrays as part of the process, after a
> >time.
> >
> >While cost projections on anything are worth the paper they are printed
> >
> >on, if that, all-up costs on a common basis (including externalities in
> >
> >the costs of competing technologies) showed SPS power to be in the
> >competitive realm, with a major assumption that costs of delivering
> >payloads to GEO would come down, either in earth->GEO launches or in
> >moon->GEO launches using lunar materials and propellants (including
> >"fuelless" launches using a mass driver).  Note that building the
> >satellites in LEO from earth-launched materials, then using electric
> >propulsion (argon ion thrusters) to take them to GEO made sense, it
> >takes awhile but there is plenty of power and time to do it, so no big
> >deal. Launching stuff "downhill" makes a lot of sense, and when you
> >have
> >essentially unlimited resources on the moon with minimal concerns about
> >
> >environmental effects (externalities), either from launches or
> >manufacturing, then it looks even better.
> >
> >I talked a coupla years ago to one of my friends/colleagues from that
> >time about Peter and these ideas, as far as she knew nothing was being
> >done about it now.  Another colleague with whom we worked, a former
> >Apollo astronaut, is still alive living in the DC area somewhere, I
> >have
> >reached out to him but have never heard back and neither has my friend
> >(whose good friend was married to him for some time, I guess they
> >aren't
> >any more).  I don't know what he is up to these days, he must be way up
> >
> >in his 80s now.  I know he kept trying to promote these ideas with
> >Peter.  There were also some other interesting characters involved,
> >somewhat peripherally, but kept the ideas "out there."
> >
> >As far as low-hanging fruit, yep... but sometimes a visionary can help
> >reach that higher fruit...
> >
> >Sic transit gloria mundi...
> >
> >--FT
> >
> >On 4/4/19 5:44 PM, G Mann via Mercedes wrote:
> >> What a grand plan.
> >> However, after reading the posting in detail, I find no cost per KW
> >hr.
> >> projection based on the expected life of the solar orbit array, and
> >the
> >> actual cost of building it and maintaining it, both in space and on
> >the
> >> ground.
> >>
> >> Thus, solar and wind are still "pie in the sky" not connected to the
> >> reality of real life and mankind as it truly exists.
> >> As long as there is low hanging fruit to be picked, mankind will pick
> >it
> >> first.
> >>
> >> On Thu, Apr 4, 2019 at 2:22 PM Floyd Thursby via Mercedes <
> >> mercedes@okiebenz.com> wrote:
> >>
> >>> The sun shines continuously a few thousand miles away
> >>>
> >>>
> >
> https://www.wired.com/2014/04/solar-power-satellites-a-visual-introduction/
> >>>
> >>> Full disclosure:  My first grown-up job was working for Peter Glaser
> >on
> >>> SPS-related work.  His sweet secretary facilitated that job after we
> >>> spoke a coupla times on the phone.  I think I wrote some of the
> >content
> >>> of one or two of those referenced reports.  If anyone had any vision
> >>> these days for truly remarkable challenges rather than being mired
> >down
> >>> in issues about whose flings are being hurt, we would be
> >>> building components for these on the moon and launching to LEO where
> >>> they would be assembled robotically.  No nuclear waste to deal with,
> >all
> >>> the power you could want.
> >>>
> >>> --FT
> >>>
> >>> On 4/4/19 4:25 PM, Andrew Strasfogel via Mercedes wrote:
>  EV vehicles are not a dream, Randy. There are thousands of them and
>  thousands more are selling every month. In Manitoba, where do you
> >get
> >>> your
>  power? The answer is hydro. You are like Curt in that you expect
> >>> perfection
>  all at once. The trend is definitely towards solar and wind. I
> >agree with
>  you about collateral damage to birds from the wind turbines, but
> 

Re: [MBZ] OT EV airplanes in the near future -- POWER SOURCES

[Max Dillon via Mercedes]

The idea still has merit, perhaps in the future when fossil fuels are depleted.

My concern would be the microwave energy, keeping that pointed in a safe 
direction.  
-- 
Max Dillon
Charleston SC

On April 4, 2019 6:28:40 PM EDT, Floyd Thursby via Mercedes 
 wrote:
>It was all in the reports.  The stuff I worked on had some fairly 
>realistic numbers on all that, based on what we knew at the time and 
>some reasonable expectations of the march of technology. One of the 
>biggest assumptions was the performance of solar photovoltaics going 
>from maybe 3% efficiency (at the time) to 6% or more, I think that is 
>sorta typical these days, might be even better than that.  And yes the 
>photovoltaic arrays do degrade, that was factored in, I recall
>something 
>like continuous upgrades of arrays as part of the process, after a
>time.
>
>While cost projections on anything are worth the paper they are printed
>
>on, if that, all-up costs on a common basis (including externalities in
>
>the costs of competing technologies) showed SPS power to be in the 
>competitive realm, with a major assumption that costs of delivering 
>payloads to GEO would come down, either in earth->GEO launches or in 
>moon->GEO launches using lunar materials and propellants (including 
>"fuelless" launches using a mass driver).  Note that building the 
>satellites in LEO from earth-launched materials, then using electric 
>propulsion (argon ion thrusters) to take them to GEO made sense, it 
>takes awhile but there is plenty of power and time to do it, so no big 
>deal. Launching stuff "downhill" makes a lot of sense, and when you
>have 
>essentially unlimited resources on the moon with minimal concerns about
>
>environmental effects (externalities), either from launches or 
>manufacturing, then it looks even better.
>
>I talked a coupla years ago to one of my friends/colleagues from that 
>time about Peter and these ideas, as far as she knew nothing was being 
>done about it now.  Another colleague with whom we worked, a former 
>Apollo astronaut, is still alive living in the DC area somewhere, I
>have 
>reached out to him but have never heard back and neither has my friend 
>(whose good friend was married to him for some time, I guess they
>aren't 
>any more).  I don't know what he is up to these days, he must be way up
>
>in his 80s now.  I know he kept trying to promote these ideas with 
>Peter.  There were also some other interesting characters involved, 
>somewhat peripherally, but kept the ideas "out there."
>
>As far as low-hanging fruit, yep... but sometimes a visionary can help 
>reach that higher fruit...
>
>Sic transit gloria mundi...
>
>--FT
>
>On 4/4/19 5:44 PM, G Mann via Mercedes wrote:
>> What a grand plan.
>> However, after reading the posting in detail, I find no cost per KW
>hr.
>> projection based on the expected life of the solar orbit array, and
>the
>> actual cost of building it and maintaining it, both in space and on
>the
>> ground.
>>
>> Thus, solar and wind are still "pie in the sky" not connected to the
>> reality of real life and mankind as it truly exists.
>> As long as there is low hanging fruit to be picked, mankind will pick
>it
>> first.
>>
>> On Thu, Apr 4, 2019 at 2:22 PM Floyd Thursby via Mercedes <
>> mercedes@okiebenz.com> wrote:
>>
>>> The sun shines continuously a few thousand miles away
>>>
>>>
>https://www.wired.com/2014/04/solar-power-satellites-a-visual-introduction/
>>>
>>> Full disclosure:  My first grown-up job was working for Peter Glaser
>on
>>> SPS-related work.  His sweet secretary facilitated that job after we
>>> spoke a coupla times on the phone.  I think I wrote some of the
>content
>>> of one or two of those referenced reports.  If anyone had any vision
>>> these days for truly remarkable challenges rather than being mired
>down
>>> in issues about whose flings are being hurt, we would be
>>> building components for these on the moon and launching to LEO where
>>> they would be assembled robotically.  No nuclear waste to deal with,
>all
>>> the power you could want.
>>>
>>> --FT
>>>
>>> On 4/4/19 4:25 PM, Andrew Strasfogel via Mercedes wrote:
 EV vehicles are not a dream, Randy. There are thousands of them and
 thousands more are selling every month. In Manitoba, where do you
>get
>>> your
 power? The answer is hydro. You are like Curt in that you expect
>>> perfection
 all at once. The trend is definitely towards solar and wind. I
>agree with
 you about collateral damage to birds from the wind turbines, but
>that
 problem is going to be overcome with offshore wind development,
>where it
 has less effect on birds.

 And the tired old song about the Sun not shining at night will be
>>> overcome
 through the evolution of storage batteries. Many utilities are
>already
 installing these.

 On Thu, Apr 4, 2019, 4:16 PM Randy Bennell via Mercedes <
 mercedes@okiebenz.com> wrote:

> On 04/04/2019 12:35 PM, Andrew 

Re: [MBZ] OT EV airplanes in the near future -- POWER SOURCES

[Floyd Thursby via Mercedes]

It was all in the reports.  The stuff I worked on had some fairly 
realistic numbers on all that, based on what we knew at the time and 
some reasonable expectations of the march of technology. One of the 
biggest assumptions was the performance of solar photovoltaics going 
from maybe 3% efficiency (at the time) to 6% or more, I think that is 
sorta typical these days, might be even better than that.  And yes the 
photovoltaic arrays do degrade, that was factored in, I recall something 
like continuous upgrades of arrays as part of the process, after a time.


While cost projections on anything are worth the paper they are printed 
on, if that, all-up costs on a common basis (including externalities in 
the costs of competing technologies) showed SPS power to be in the 
competitive realm, with a major assumption that costs of delivering 
payloads to GEO would come down, either in earth->GEO launches or in 
moon->GEO launches using lunar materials and propellants (including 
"fuelless" launches using a mass driver).  Note that building the 
satellites in LEO from earth-launched materials, then using electric 
propulsion (argon ion thrusters) to take them to GEO made sense, it 
takes awhile but there is plenty of power and time to do it, so no big 
deal. Launching stuff "downhill" makes a lot of sense, and when you have 
essentially unlimited resources on the moon with minimal concerns about 
environmental effects (externalities), either from launches or 
manufacturing, then it looks even better.


I talked a coupla years ago to one of my friends/colleagues from that 
time about Peter and these ideas, as far as she knew nothing was being 
done about it now.  Another colleague with whom we worked, a former 
Apollo astronaut, is still alive living in the DC area somewhere, I have 
reached out to him but have never heard back and neither has my friend 
(whose good friend was married to him for some time, I guess they aren't 
any more).  I don't know what he is up to these days, he must be way up 
in his 80s now.  I know he kept trying to promote these ideas with 
Peter.  There were also some other interesting characters involved, 
somewhat peripherally, but kept the ideas "out there."


As far as low-hanging fruit, yep... but sometimes a visionary can help 
reach that higher fruit...


Sic transit gloria mundi...

--FT

On 4/4/19 5:44 PM, G Mann via Mercedes wrote:

What a grand plan.
However, after reading the posting in detail, I find no cost per KW hr.
projection based on the expected life of the solar orbit array, and the
actual cost of building it and maintaining it, both in space and on the
ground.

Thus, solar and wind are still "pie in the sky" not connected to the
reality of real life and mankind as it truly exists.
As long as there is low hanging fruit to be picked, mankind will pick it
first.

On Thu, Apr 4, 2019 at 2:22 PM Floyd Thursby via Mercedes <
mercedes@okiebenz.com> wrote:


The sun shines continuously a few thousand miles away

https://www.wired.com/2014/04/solar-power-satellites-a-visual-introduction/

Full disclosure:  My first grown-up job was working for Peter Glaser on
SPS-related work.  His sweet secretary facilitated that job after we
spoke a coupla times on the phone.  I think I wrote some of the content
of one or two of those referenced reports.  If anyone had any vision
these days for truly remarkable challenges rather than being mired down
in issues about whose flings are being hurt, we would be
building components for these on the moon and launching to LEO where
they would be assembled robotically.  No nuclear waste to deal with, all
the power you could want.

--FT

On 4/4/19 4:25 PM, Andrew Strasfogel via Mercedes wrote:

EV vehicles are not a dream, Randy. There are thousands of them and
thousands more are selling every month. In Manitoba, where do you get

your

power? The answer is hydro. You are like Curt in that you expect

perfection

all at once. The trend is definitely towards solar and wind. I agree with
you about collateral damage to birds from the wind turbines, but that
problem is going to be overcome with offshore wind development, where it
has less effect on birds.

And the tired old song about the Sun not shining at night will be

overcome

through the evolution of storage batteries. Many utilities are already
installing these.

On Thu, Apr 4, 2019, 4:16 PM Randy Bennell via Mercedes <
mercedes@okiebenz.com> wrote:


On 04/04/2019 12:35 PM, Andrew Strasfogel via Mercedes wrote:

Think positively: we're heading in the right direction.


But, we are all old enough the only electric vehicles we are likely to
ultimately find to be practical will be wheelchairs.

Electric vehicles are a dream. They have no range. They take too long to
re-charge. Battery technology is not at a point where they are

practical.

And, the infrastructure is not there to charge them. Solar does not work
in the dark. Not bad in Arizona. Not so good in Manitoba, especially in

Re: [MBZ] OT EV airplanes in the near future -- POWER SOURCES

[G Mann via Mercedes]

What a grand plan.
However, after reading the posting in detail, I find no cost per KW hr.
projection based on the expected life of the solar orbit array, and the
actual cost of building it and maintaining it, both in space and on the
ground.

Thus, solar and wind are still "pie in the sky" not connected to the
reality of real life and mankind as it truly exists.
As long as there is low hanging fruit to be picked, mankind will pick it
first.

On Thu, Apr 4, 2019 at 2:22 PM Floyd Thursby via Mercedes <
mercedes@okiebenz.com> wrote:

> The sun shines continuously a few thousand miles away
>
> https://www.wired.com/2014/04/solar-power-satellites-a-visual-introduction/
>
> Full disclosure:  My first grown-up job was working for Peter Glaser on
> SPS-related work.  His sweet secretary facilitated that job after we
> spoke a coupla times on the phone.  I think I wrote some of the content
> of one or two of those referenced reports.  If anyone had any vision
> these days for truly remarkable challenges rather than being mired down
> in issues about whose flings are being hurt, we would be
> building components for these on the moon and launching to LEO where
> they would be assembled robotically.  No nuclear waste to deal with, all
> the power you could want.
>
> --FT
>
> On 4/4/19 4:25 PM, Andrew Strasfogel via Mercedes wrote:
> > EV vehicles are not a dream, Randy. There are thousands of them and
> > thousands more are selling every month. In Manitoba, where do you get
> your
> > power? The answer is hydro. You are like Curt in that you expect
> perfection
> > all at once. The trend is definitely towards solar and wind. I agree with
> > you about collateral damage to birds from the wind turbines, but that
> > problem is going to be overcome with offshore wind development, where it
> > has less effect on birds.
> >
> > And the tired old song about the Sun not shining at night will be
> overcome
> > through the evolution of storage batteries. Many utilities are already
> > installing these.
> >
> > On Thu, Apr 4, 2019, 4:16 PM Randy Bennell via Mercedes <
> > mercedes@okiebenz.com> wrote:
> >
> >> On 04/04/2019 12:35 PM, Andrew Strasfogel via Mercedes wrote:
> >>> Think positively: we're heading in the right direction.
> >>>
> >> But, we are all old enough the only electric vehicles we are likely to
> >> ultimately find to be practical will be wheelchairs.
> >>
> >> Electric vehicles are a dream. They have no range. They take too long to
> >> re-charge. Battery technology is not at a point where they are
> practical.
> >>
> >> And, the infrastructure is not there to charge them. Solar does not work
> >> in the dark. Not bad in Arizona. Not so good in Manitoba, especially in
> >> winter.
> >>
> >> Windmills kill the birds migrating through their path. I am surprised
> >> the environmental crowd does not get the windmills banned for that
> >> reason alone.
> >>
> >> Nuclear is there but, as you pointed out yesterday, we have a problem
> >> with the leftovers. Until they find a way to totally use up nuclear fuel
> >> so that it does not pose a danger, there is the question of what to do
> >> with the stuff that has no further use but is dangerous for the lord
> >> only knows how long.
> >>
> >>
> >>
> >> ___
> >> http://www.okiebenz.com
> >>
> >> To search list archives http://www.okiebenz.com/archive/
> >>
> >> To Unsubscribe or change delivery options go to:
> >> http://mail.okiebenz.com/mailman/listinfo/mercedes_okiebenz.com
> >>
> >>
> > ___
> > http://www.okiebenz.com
> >
> > To search list archives http://www.okiebenz.com/archive/
> >
> > To Unsubscribe or change delivery options go to:
> > http://mail.okiebenz.com/mailman/listinfo/mercedes_okiebenz.com
> >
> >
> --
> --FT
>
>
> ___
> http://www.okiebenz.com
>
> To search list archives http://www.okiebenz.com/archive/
>
> To Unsubscribe or change delivery options go to:
> http://mail.okiebenz.com/mailman/listinfo/mercedes_okiebenz.com
>
>
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Re: [MBZ] OT EV airplanes in the near future -- POWER SOURCES

[Floyd Thursby via Mercedes]

The sun shines continuously a few thousand miles away

https://www.wired.com/2014/04/solar-power-satellites-a-visual-introduction/

Full disclosure:  My first grown-up job was working for Peter Glaser on 
SPS-related work.  His sweet secretary facilitated that job after we 
spoke a coupla times on the phone.  I think I wrote some of the content 
of one or two of those referenced reports.  If anyone had any vision 
these days for truly remarkable challenges rather than being mired down 
in issues about whose flings are being hurt, we would be 
building components for these on the moon and launching to LEO where 
they would be assembled robotically.  No nuclear waste to deal with, all 
the power you could want.


--FT

On 4/4/19 4:25 PM, Andrew Strasfogel via Mercedes wrote:

EV vehicles are not a dream, Randy. There are thousands of them and
thousands more are selling every month. In Manitoba, where do you get your
power? The answer is hydro. You are like Curt in that you expect perfection
all at once. The trend is definitely towards solar and wind. I agree with
you about collateral damage to birds from the wind turbines, but that
problem is going to be overcome with offshore wind development, where it
has less effect on birds.

And the tired old song about the Sun not shining at night will be overcome
through the evolution of storage batteries. Many utilities are already
installing these.

On Thu, Apr 4, 2019, 4:16 PM Randy Bennell via Mercedes <
mercedes@okiebenz.com> wrote:


On 04/04/2019 12:35 PM, Andrew Strasfogel via Mercedes wrote:

Think positively: we're heading in the right direction.


But, we are all old enough the only electric vehicles we are likely to
ultimately find to be practical will be wheelchairs.

Electric vehicles are a dream. They have no range. They take too long to
re-charge. Battery technology is not at a point where they are practical.

And, the infrastructure is not there to charge them. Solar does not work
in the dark. Not bad in Arizona. Not so good in Manitoba, especially in
winter.

Windmills kill the birds migrating through their path. I am surprised
the environmental crowd does not get the windmills banned for that
reason alone.

Nuclear is there but, as you pointed out yesterday, we have a problem
with the leftovers. Until they find a way to totally use up nuclear fuel
so that it does not pose a danger, there is the question of what to do
with the stuff that has no further use but is dangerous for the lord
only knows how long.



___
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--
--FT


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Re: [MBZ] OT EV airplanes in the near future

[Curt Raymond via Mercedes]

 Ummm, I was arguing against Andrew on this one, or at least his idea that 
hydro was going to produce energy enough for everybody to drive an electric car.
Again an electric car isn't for everybody or for every mission any person might 
make. Owning a car is always about living with the compromises of that car. The 
easiest way to go is that which you've taken your F150 wouldn't be a good 
choice for a city dweller but you could probably get away with it in most 
cases, the biggest compromise is the amount of fuel it needs. A good sedan 
could do maybe 90% of what most people buy a pickup truck for but that last 10% 
it can't do at all. Thats remembering that most trucks will almost never go off 
the paved road...
-Curt

On Thursday, April 4, 2019, 5:11:35 PM EDT, Randy Bennell via Mercedes 
 wrote:  
 
 OK, uncle! I give up.

You have convinced me to swap my F150 for a Tesla.
I will move out of the city and buy some acreage so I can put up enough 
solar panels to keep it charged!



On 04/04/2019 4:07 PM, Curt Raymond via Mercedes wrote:
>  Hydro is an environmental disaster, dams are coming down all over the place 
>with huge pushes to "restore the river"...
> -Curt
>


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Re: [MBZ] OT EV airplanes in the near future

[Randy Bennell via Mercedes]

OK, uncle! I give up.

You have convinced me to swap my F150 for a Tesla.
I will move out of the city and buy some acreage so I can put up enough 
solar panels to keep it charged!




On 04/04/2019 4:07 PM, Curt Raymond via Mercedes wrote:

  Hydro is an environmental disaster, dams are coming down all over the place with huge 
pushes to "restore the river"...
-Curt




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Re: [MBZ] OT EV airplanes in the near future

[Curt Raymond via Mercedes]

 Hydro is an environmental disaster, dams are coming down all over the place 
with huge pushes to "restore the river"...
-Curt

On Thursday, April 4, 2019, 4:26:51 PM EDT, Andrew Strasfogel via Mercedes 
 wrote:  
 
 EV vehicles are not a dream, Randy. There are thousands of them and
thousands more are selling every month. In Manitoba, where do you get your
power? The answer is hydro. You are like Curt in that you expect perfection
all at once. The trend is definitely towards solar and wind. I agree with
you about collateral damage to birds from the wind turbines, but that
problem is going to be overcome with offshore wind development, where it
has less effect on birds.

And the tired old song about the Sun not shining at night will be overcome
through the evolution of storage batteries. Many utilities are already
installing these.

On Thu, Apr 4, 2019, 4:16 PM Randy Bennell via Mercedes <
mercedes@okiebenz.com> wrote:

> On 04/04/2019 12:35 PM, Andrew Strasfogel via Mercedes wrote:
> > Think positively: we're heading in the right direction.
> >
> But, we are all old enough the only electric vehicles we are likely to
> ultimately find to be practical will be wheelchairs.
>
> Electric vehicles are a dream. They have no range. They take too long to
> re-charge. Battery technology is not at a point where they are practical.
>
> And, the infrastructure is not there to charge them. Solar does not work
> in the dark. Not bad in Arizona. Not so good in Manitoba, especially in
> winter.
>
> Windmills kill the birds migrating through their path. I am surprised
> the environmental crowd does not get the windmills banned for that
> reason alone.
>
> Nuclear is there but, as you pointed out yesterday, we have a problem
> with the leftovers. Until they find a way to totally use up nuclear fuel
> so that it does not pose a danger, there is the question of what to do
> with the stuff that has no further use but is dangerous for the lord
> only knows how long.
>
>
>
> ___
> http://www.okiebenz.com
>
> To search list archives http://www.okiebenz.com/archive/
>
> To Unsubscribe or change delivery options go to:
> http://mail.okiebenz.com/mailman/listinfo/mercedes_okiebenz.com
>
>
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Re: [MBZ] OT EV airplanes in the near future

[Curt Raymond via Mercedes]

 Randy,This is also not true, there are MANY electric cars on the road today 
and just because they don't fit your needs or lifestyle that doesn't mean they 
aren't an excellent choice for somebody else. Your F150 would be a really 
stupid vehicle for somebody living in a big city, does that make it "bad"? Its 
just the wrong choice in that instance.
Electric vehicles are a reality and will be more common as time goes on. 
Charging times are down, energy capacity is up and those trends will continue...
-Curt



On Thursday, April 4, 2019, 4:16:41 PM EDT, Randy Bennell via Mercedes 
 wrote:  
 
 On 04/04/2019 12:35 PM, Andrew Strasfogel via Mercedes wrote:
> Think positively: we're heading in the right direction.
>
But, we are all old enough the only electric vehicles we are likely to 
ultimately find to be practical will be wheelchairs.

Electric vehicles are a dream. They have no range. They take too long to 
re-charge. Battery technology is not at a point where they are practical.

And, the infrastructure is not there to charge them. Solar does not work 
in the dark. Not bad in Arizona. Not so good in Manitoba, especially in 
winter.

Windmills kill the birds migrating through their path. I am surprised 
the environmental crowd does not get the windmills banned for that 
reason alone.

Nuclear is there but, as you pointed out yesterday, we have a problem 
with the leftovers. Until they find a way to totally use up nuclear fuel 
so that it does not pose a danger, there is the question of what to do 
with the stuff that has no further use but is dangerous for the lord 
only knows how long.



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Re: [MBZ] OT EV airplanes in the near future

[Dwight Giles via Mercedes]

I agree that being lied to is not progress.
Dwight E. Giles Jr.
Wickford RI


On Thu, Apr 4, 2019 at 3:39 PM Dwight Giles  wrote:

> I agree.
>
> Dwight Giles Jr.
> Wickford RI
>
> On Thu, Apr 4, 2019, 3:05 PM Curt Raymond via Mercedes <
> mercedes@okiebenz.com wrote:
>
>>  This is your daughter saying "I'm not having pre-martial sex because
>> anal doesn't count." its a lie so fundamental it makes me question
>> everything else said.
>> Remember I LIKE electric cars, they're fun to drive and can be quite good
>> in some situations, not for every situation but in many cases. I really
>> dislike liars. If you're lying to me about "no pollution" what else are you
>> lying to me about?
>>
>> -Curt
>>
>> On Thursday, April 4, 2019, 2:58:28 PM EDT, Andrew Strasfogel <
>> astrasfo...@gmail.com> wrote:
>>
>>  As Dimitri's friend Gael would say, "the perfect is the enemy of the
>> good."
>> On Thu, Apr 4, 2019, 2:53 PM Andrew Strasfogel 
>> wrote:
>>
>> So if I understand you correctly, if there is one single little white
>> lie, that would offend you more than relying on coal-fired emissions which
>> would pollute the air and shorten your life span. Is that correct?
>> On Thu, Apr 4, 2019, 2:34 PM Curt Raymond via Mercedes <
>> mercedes@okiebenz.com> wrote:
>>
>>  I have a problem with being lied to about "no emissions". Its such a
>> blatant obvious lie too.
>> Actually the worst is the "Partial zero emissions"...
>> -Curt
>>
>> On Thursday, April 4, 2019, 2:30:21 PM EDT, Andrew Strasfogel <
>> astrasfo...@gmail.com> wrote:
>>
>>  Dos Curt have a problem with breathing unpolluted air?
>>
>> On Thu, Apr 4, 2019 at 1:40 PM Curt Raymond  wrote:
>>
>>  What makes it "right"?
>> -Curt
>>
>> On Thursday, April 4, 2019, 1:36:55 PM EDT, Andrew Strasfogel via
>> Mercedes  wrote:
>>
>>  Think positively: we're heading in the right direction.
>>
>> On Thu, Apr 4, 2019 at 1:29 PM OK Don via Mercedes > >
>> wrote:
>>
>> > Wouldn't the aluminum skin/frame make a Faraday shield? Now a tube and
>> rag
>> > plane would probably fall out of the sky - but the blast would do it in
>> > anyway.
>> >
>> > On Thu, Apr 4, 2019 at 12:25 PM G Mann via Mercedes <
>> mercedes@okiebenz.com
>> > >
>> > wrote:
>> >
>> > > Which raises another question. What happens to an EV airplane in an
>> EMP
>> > > event?
>> > >
>> > > Will the computer nannies have thought to built in protections?
>> > >
>> > > On Wed, Apr 3, 2019 at 10:03 PM Scott Ritchey via Mercedes <
>> > > mercedes@okiebenz.com> wrote:
>> > >
>> > > > Isn't that the same year the world ends from global warming?
>> > > >
>> > > > > -Original Message-
>> > > > > From: Mercedes [mailto:mercedes-boun...@okiebenz.com] On Behalf
>> Of
>> > > > > Andrew Strasfogel via Mercedes
>> > > > > Sent: Wednesday, April 03, 2019 9:58 AM
>> > > > > To: Mercedes Discussion List 
>> > > > > Cc: Andrew Strasfogel 
>> > > > > Subject: [MBZ] OT EV airplanes in the near future
>> > > > >
>> > > > > Commercial flights on electric engines may arrive in
>> 2021Published:
>> > > > > Wednesday, April 3, 2019
>> > > > >
>> > > > > There's no shortage of companies working to build electric
>> aircraft,
>> > > but
>> > > > a
>> > > > > Canadian airline and a Seattle-area engine maker say they've
>> found a
>> > > > quicker
>> > > > > route to electrification by converting a small bush plane with
>> > > batteries
>> > > > and an
>> > > > > electric motor.
>> > > > >
>> > > > > The first passenger flights for British Columbia-based Harbour Air
>> > Ltd.
>> > > > > would be in late 2021 under a partnership with magniX
>> Technologies,
>> > > > pending
>> > > > > regulatory approvals, the companies said last week.
>> > > > >
>> > > > > They plan to swap kerosene fuel tanks for a magniX electric motor
>> and
>> > > > lithium-
>> > > > > ion battery pack

Re: [MBZ] OT EV airplanes in the near future

[Andrew Strasfogel via Mercedes]

EV vehicles are not a dream, Randy. There are thousands of them and
thousands more are selling every month. In Manitoba, where do you get your
power? The answer is hydro. You are like Curt in that you expect perfection
all at once. The trend is definitely towards solar and wind. I agree with
you about collateral damage to birds from the wind turbines, but that
problem is going to be overcome with offshore wind development, where it
has less effect on birds.

And the tired old song about the Sun not shining at night will be overcome
through the evolution of storage batteries. Many utilities are already
installing these.

On Thu, Apr 4, 2019, 4:16 PM Randy Bennell via Mercedes <
mercedes@okiebenz.com> wrote:

> On 04/04/2019 12:35 PM, Andrew Strasfogel via Mercedes wrote:
> > Think positively: we're heading in the right direction.
> >
> But, we are all old enough the only electric vehicles we are likely to
> ultimately find to be practical will be wheelchairs.
>
> Electric vehicles are a dream. They have no range. They take too long to
> re-charge. Battery technology is not at a point where they are practical.
>
> And, the infrastructure is not there to charge them. Solar does not work
> in the dark. Not bad in Arizona. Not so good in Manitoba, especially in
> winter.
>
> Windmills kill the birds migrating through their path. I am surprised
> the environmental crowd does not get the windmills banned for that
> reason alone.
>
> Nuclear is there but, as you pointed out yesterday, we have a problem
> with the leftovers. Until they find a way to totally use up nuclear fuel
> so that it does not pose a danger, there is the question of what to do
> with the stuff that has no further use but is dangerous for the lord
> only knows how long.
>
>
>
> ___
> http://www.okiebenz.com
>
> To search list archives http://www.okiebenz.com/archive/
>
> To Unsubscribe or change delivery options go to:
> http://mail.okiebenz.com/mailman/listinfo/mercedes_okiebenz.com
>
>
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http://www.okiebenz.com

To search list archives http://www.okiebenz.com/archive/

To Unsubscribe or change delivery options go to:
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Re: [MBZ] OT EV airplanes in the near future

[Randy Bennell via Mercedes]

On 04/04/2019 12:35 PM, Andrew Strasfogel via Mercedes wrote:

Think positively: we're heading in the right direction.

But, we are all old enough the only electric vehicles we are likely to 
ultimately find to be practical will be wheelchairs.


Electric vehicles are a dream. They have no range. They take too long to 
re-charge. Battery technology is not at a point where they are practical.


And, the infrastructure is not there to charge them. Solar does not work 
in the dark. Not bad in Arizona. Not so good in Manitoba, especially in 
winter.


Windmills kill the birds migrating through their path. I am surprised 
the environmental crowd does not get the windmills banned for that 
reason alone.


Nuclear is there but, as you pointed out yesterday, we have a problem 
with the leftovers. Until they find a way to totally use up nuclear fuel 
so that it does not pose a danger, there is the question of what to do 
with the stuff that has no further use but is dangerous for the lord 
only knows how long.




___
http://www.okiebenz.com

To search list archives http://www.okiebenz.com/archive/

To Unsubscribe or change delivery options go to:
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Re: [MBZ] OT EV airplanes in the near future

[Dwight Giles via Mercedes]

I agree.

Dwight Giles Jr.
Wickford RI

On Thu, Apr 4, 2019, 3:05 PM Curt Raymond via Mercedes <
mercedes@okiebenz.com wrote:

>  This is your daughter saying "I'm not having pre-martial sex because anal
> doesn't count." its a lie so fundamental it makes me question everything
> else said.
> Remember I LIKE electric cars, they're fun to drive and can be quite good
> in some situations, not for every situation but in many cases. I really
> dislike liars. If you're lying to me about "no pollution" what else are you
> lying to me about?
>
> -Curt
>
> On Thursday, April 4, 2019, 2:58:28 PM EDT, Andrew Strasfogel <
> astrasfo...@gmail.com> wrote:
>
>  As Dimitri's friend Gael would say, "the perfect is the enemy of the
> good."
> On Thu, Apr 4, 2019, 2:53 PM Andrew Strasfogel 
> wrote:
>
> So if I understand you correctly, if there is one single little white lie,
> that would offend you more than relying on coal-fired emissions which would
> pollute the air and shorten your life span. Is that correct?
> On Thu, Apr 4, 2019, 2:34 PM Curt Raymond via Mercedes <
> mercedes@okiebenz.com> wrote:
>
>  I have a problem with being lied to about "no emissions". Its such a
> blatant obvious lie too.
> Actually the worst is the "Partial zero emissions"...
> -Curt
>
> On Thursday, April 4, 2019, 2:30:21 PM EDT, Andrew Strasfogel <
> astrasfo...@gmail.com> wrote:
>
>  Dos Curt have a problem with breathing unpolluted air?
>
> On Thu, Apr 4, 2019 at 1:40 PM Curt Raymond  wrote:
>
>  What makes it "right"?
> -Curt
>
> On Thursday, April 4, 2019, 1:36:55 PM EDT, Andrew Strasfogel via
> Mercedes  wrote:
>
>  Think positively: we're heading in the right direction.
>
> On Thu, Apr 4, 2019 at 1:29 PM OK Don via Mercedes 
> wrote:
>
> > Wouldn't the aluminum skin/frame make a Faraday shield? Now a tube and
> rag
> > plane would probably fall out of the sky - but the blast would do it in
> > anyway.
> >
> > On Thu, Apr 4, 2019 at 12:25 PM G Mann via Mercedes <
> mercedes@okiebenz.com
> > >
> > wrote:
> >
> > > Which raises another question. What happens to an EV airplane in an EMP
> > > event?
> > >
> > > Will the computer nannies have thought to built in protections?
> > >
> > > On Wed, Apr 3, 2019 at 10:03 PM Scott Ritchey via Mercedes <
> > > mercedes@okiebenz.com> wrote:
> > >
> > > > Isn't that the same year the world ends from global warming?
> > > >
> > > > > -Original Message-
> > > > > From: Mercedes [mailto:mercedes-boun...@okiebenz.com] On Behalf Of
> > > > > Andrew Strasfogel via Mercedes
> > > > > Sent: Wednesday, April 03, 2019 9:58 AM
> > > > > To: Mercedes Discussion List 
> > > > > Cc: Andrew Strasfogel 
> > > > > Subject: [MBZ] OT EV airplanes in the near future
> > > > >
> > > > > Commercial flights on electric engines may arrive in 2021Published:
> > > > > Wednesday, April 3, 2019
> > > > >
> > > > > There's no shortage of companies working to build electric
> aircraft,
> > > but
> > > > a
> > > > > Canadian airline and a Seattle-area engine maker say they've found
> a
> > > > quicker
> > > > > route to electrification by converting a small bush plane with
> > > batteries
> > > > and an
> > > > > electric motor.
> > > > >
> > > > > The first passenger flights for British Columbia-based Harbour Air
> > Ltd.
> > > > > would be in late 2021 under a partnership with magniX Technologies,
> > > > pending
> > > > > regulatory approvals, the companies said last week.
> > > > >
> > > > > They plan to swap kerosene fuel tanks for a magniX electric motor
> and
> > > > lithium-
> > > > > ion battery packs on a Harbour Air de Havilland DHC-2 Beaver
> > aircraft,
> > > > which
> > > > > seats six passengers, to begin test flights in November.
> > > > > The propulsion system will have a range of about 100 miles.
> > > > >
> > > > > The goal is an emissions-free, quieter aircraft that is certified
> by
> > > > both U.S. and
> > > > > Canadian aviation authorities, Greg McDougall, Harbour Air's
> founder
> > > and
> > > > > chief executive officer, said in a telephone interview. T

Re: [MBZ] OT EV airplanes in the near future

[Andrew Strasfogel via Mercedes]

You are too easily offended. Get off your high horse.

On Thu, Apr 4, 2019, 3:04 PM Curt Raymond  wrote:

> This is your daughter saying "I'm not having pre-martial sex because anal
> doesn't count." its a lie so fundamental it makes me question everything
> else said.
>
> Remember I LIKE electric cars, they're fun to drive and can be quite good
> in some situations, not for every situation but in many cases. I really
> dislike liars. If you're lying to me about "no pollution" what else are you
> lying to me about?
>
> -Curt
>
> On Thursday, April 4, 2019, 2:58:28 PM EDT, Andrew Strasfogel <
> astrasfo...@gmail.com> wrote:
>
>
> As Dimitri's friend Gael would say, "the perfect is the enemy of the good."
>
> On Thu, Apr 4, 2019, 2:53 PM Andrew Strasfogel 
> wrote:
>
> So if I understand you correctly, if there is one single little white lie,
> that would offend you more than relying on coal-fired emissions which would
> pollute the air and shorten your life span. Is that correct?
>
> On Thu, Apr 4, 2019, 2:34 PM Curt Raymond via Mercedes <
> mercedes@okiebenz.com> wrote:
>
>  I have a problem with being lied to about "no emissions". Its such a
> blatant obvious lie too.
> Actually the worst is the "Partial zero emissions"...
> -Curt
>
> On Thursday, April 4, 2019, 2:30:21 PM EDT, Andrew Strasfogel <
> astrasfo...@gmail.com> wrote:
>
>  Dos Curt have a problem with breathing unpolluted air?
>
> On Thu, Apr 4, 2019 at 1:40 PM Curt Raymond  wrote:
>
>  What makes it "right"?
> -Curt
>
> On Thursday, April 4, 2019, 1:36:55 PM EDT, Andrew Strasfogel via
> Mercedes  wrote:
>
>  Think positively: we're heading in the right direction.
>
> On Thu, Apr 4, 2019 at 1:29 PM OK Don via Mercedes 
> wrote:
>
> > Wouldn't the aluminum skin/frame make a Faraday shield? Now a tube and
> rag
> > plane would probably fall out of the sky - but the blast would do it in
> > anyway.
> >
> > On Thu, Apr 4, 2019 at 12:25 PM G Mann via Mercedes <
> mercedes@okiebenz.com
> > >
> > wrote:
> >
> > > Which raises another question. What happens to an EV airplane in an EMP
> > > event?
> > >
> > > Will the computer nannies have thought to built in protections?
> > >
> > > On Wed, Apr 3, 2019 at 10:03 PM Scott Ritchey via Mercedes <
> > > mercedes@okiebenz.com> wrote:
> > >
> > > > Isn't that the same year the world ends from global warming?
> > > >
> > > > > -Original Message-
> > > > > From: Mercedes [mailto:mercedes-boun...@okiebenz.com] On Behalf Of
> > > > > Andrew Strasfogel via Mercedes
> > > > > Sent: Wednesday, April 03, 2019 9:58 AM
> > > > > To: Mercedes Discussion List 
> > > > > Cc: Andrew Strasfogel 
> > > > > Subject: [MBZ] OT EV airplanes in the near future
> > > > >
> > > > > Commercial flights on electric engines may arrive in 2021Published:
> > > > > Wednesday, April 3, 2019
> > > > >
> > > > > There's no shortage of companies working to build electric
> aircraft,
> > > but
> > > > a
> > > > > Canadian airline and a Seattle-area engine maker say they've found
> a
> > > > quicker
> > > > > route to electrification by converting a small bush plane with
> > > batteries
> > > > and an
> > > > > electric motor.
> > > > >
> > > > > The first passenger flights for British Columbia-based Harbour Air
> > Ltd.
> > > > > would be in late 2021 under a partnership with magniX Technologies,
> > > > pending
> > > > > regulatory approvals, the companies said last week.
> > > > >
> > > > > They plan to swap kerosene fuel tanks for a magniX electric motor
> and
> > > > lithium-
> > > > > ion battery packs on a Harbour Air de Havilland DHC-2 Beaver
> > aircraft,
> > > > which
> > > > > seats six passengers, to begin test flights in November.
> > > > > The propulsion system will have a range of about 100 miles.
> > > > >
> > > > > The goal is an emissions-free, quieter aircraft that is certified
> by
> > > > both U.S. and
> > > > > Canadian aviation authorities, Greg McDougall, Harbour Air's
> founder
> > > and
> > > > > chief executive officer, said in a telephone interv

Re: [MBZ] OT EV airplanes in the near future

[Curt Raymond via Mercedes]

 This is your daughter saying "I'm not having pre-martial sex because anal 
doesn't count." its a lie so fundamental it makes me question everything else 
said.
Remember I LIKE electric cars, they're fun to drive and can be quite good in 
some situations, not for every situation but in many cases. I really dislike 
liars. If you're lying to me about "no pollution" what else are you lying to me 
about?

-Curt

On Thursday, April 4, 2019, 2:58:28 PM EDT, Andrew Strasfogel 
 wrote:  
 
 As Dimitri's friend Gael would say, "the perfect is the enemy of the good."
On Thu, Apr 4, 2019, 2:53 PM Andrew Strasfogel  wrote:

So if I understand you correctly, if there is one single little white lie, that 
would offend you more than relying on coal-fired emissions which would pollute 
the air and shorten your life span. Is that correct?
On Thu, Apr 4, 2019, 2:34 PM Curt Raymond via Mercedes  
wrote:

 I have a problem with being lied to about "no emissions". Its such a blatant 
obvious lie too.
Actually the worst is the "Partial zero emissions"...
-Curt

    On Thursday, April 4, 2019, 2:30:21 PM EDT, Andrew Strasfogel 
 wrote:  

 Dos Curt have a problem with breathing unpolluted air?

On Thu, Apr 4, 2019 at 1:40 PM Curt Raymond  wrote:

 What makes it "right"?
-Curt

    On Thursday, April 4, 2019, 1:36:55 PM EDT, Andrew Strasfogel via Mercedes 
 wrote:  

 Think positively: we're heading in the right direction.

On Thu, Apr 4, 2019 at 1:29 PM OK Don via Mercedes 
wrote:

> Wouldn't the aluminum skin/frame make a Faraday shield? Now a tube and rag
> plane would probably fall out of the sky - but the blast would do it in
> anyway.
>
> On Thu, Apr 4, 2019 at 12:25 PM G Mann via Mercedes  >
> wrote:
>
> > Which raises another question. What happens to an EV airplane in an EMP
> > event?
> >
> > Will the computer nannies have thought to built in protections?
> >
> > On Wed, Apr 3, 2019 at 10:03 PM Scott Ritchey via Mercedes <
> > mercedes@okiebenz.com> wrote:
> >
> > > Isn't that the same year the world ends from global warming?
> > >
> > > > -Original Message-
> > > > From: Mercedes [mailto:mercedes-boun...@okiebenz.com] On Behalf Of
> > > > Andrew Strasfogel via Mercedes
> > > > Sent: Wednesday, April 03, 2019 9:58 AM
> > > > To: Mercedes Discussion List 
> > > > Cc: Andrew Strasfogel 
> > > > Subject: [MBZ] OT EV airplanes in the near future
> > > >
> > > > Commercial flights on electric engines may arrive in 2021Published:
> > > > Wednesday, April 3, 2019
> > > >
> > > > There's no shortage of companies working to build electric aircraft,
> > but
> > > a
> > > > Canadian airline and a Seattle-area engine maker say they've found a
> > > quicker
> > > > route to electrification by converting a small bush plane with
> > batteries
> > > and an
> > > > electric motor.
> > > >
> > > > The first passenger flights for British Columbia-based Harbour Air
> Ltd.
> > > > would be in late 2021 under a partnership with magniX Technologies,
> > > pending
> > > > regulatory approvals, the companies said last week.
> > > >
> > > > They plan to swap kerosene fuel tanks for a magniX electric motor and
> > > lithium-
> > > > ion battery packs on a Harbour Air de Havilland DHC-2 Beaver
> aircraft,
> > > which
> > > > seats six passengers, to begin test flights in November.
> > > > The propulsion system will have a range of about 100 miles.
> > > >
> > > > The goal is an emissions-free, quieter aircraft that is certified by
> > > both U.S. and
> > > > Canadian aviation authorities, Greg McDougall, Harbour Air's founder
> > and
> > > > chief executive officer, said in a telephone interview. The suburban
> > > > Vancouver-based seaplane company flies about 500,000 passengers each
> > year
> > > > from British Columbia and downtown Seattle.
> > > >
> > > > "I think electrification of all different vehicles now is going to
> > > become so
> > > > prevalent it's just going to be something like, 'Oh, that's something
> > > going
> > > > electric as well,'" McDougall said. "It's just a natural evolution."
> > > >
> > > > Worldwide, there are some 100 different electric-aircraft programs in
> > > > development, according to an estimate by consulting firm Roland
> Berger
> > > > GmbH. Zunum Aero Inc.

Re: [MBZ] OT EV airplanes in the near future

[Andrew Strasfogel via Mercedes]

As Dimitri's friend Gael would say, "the perfect is the enemy of the good."

On Thu, Apr 4, 2019, 2:53 PM Andrew Strasfogel 
wrote:

> So if I understand you correctly, if there is one single little white lie,
> that would offend you more than relying on coal-fired emissions which would
> pollute the air and shorten your life span. Is that correct?
>
> On Thu, Apr 4, 2019, 2:34 PM Curt Raymond via Mercedes <
> mercedes@okiebenz.com> wrote:
>
>>  I have a problem with being lied to about "no emissions". Its such a
>> blatant obvious lie too.
>> Actually the worst is the "Partial zero emissions"...
>> -Curt
>>
>> On Thursday, April 4, 2019, 2:30:21 PM EDT, Andrew Strasfogel <
>> astrasfo...@gmail.com> wrote:
>>
>>  Dos Curt have a problem with breathing unpolluted air?
>>
>> On Thu, Apr 4, 2019 at 1:40 PM Curt Raymond  wrote:
>>
>>  What makes it "right"?
>> -Curt
>>
>> On Thursday, April 4, 2019, 1:36:55 PM EDT, Andrew Strasfogel via
>> Mercedes  wrote:
>>
>>  Think positively: we're heading in the right direction.
>>
>> On Thu, Apr 4, 2019 at 1:29 PM OK Don via Mercedes > >
>> wrote:
>>
>> > Wouldn't the aluminum skin/frame make a Faraday shield? Now a tube and
>> rag
>> > plane would probably fall out of the sky - but the blast would do it in
>> > anyway.
>> >
>> > On Thu, Apr 4, 2019 at 12:25 PM G Mann via Mercedes <
>> mercedes@okiebenz.com
>> > >
>> > wrote:
>> >
>> > > Which raises another question. What happens to an EV airplane in an
>> EMP
>> > > event?
>> > >
>> > > Will the computer nannies have thought to built in protections?
>> > >
>> > > On Wed, Apr 3, 2019 at 10:03 PM Scott Ritchey via Mercedes <
>> > > mercedes@okiebenz.com> wrote:
>> > >
>> > > > Isn't that the same year the world ends from global warming?
>> > > >
>> > > > > -Original Message-
>> > > > > From: Mercedes [mailto:mercedes-boun...@okiebenz.com] On Behalf
>> Of
>> > > > > Andrew Strasfogel via Mercedes
>> > > > > Sent: Wednesday, April 03, 2019 9:58 AM
>> > > > > To: Mercedes Discussion List 
>> > > > > Cc: Andrew Strasfogel 
>> > > > > Subject: [MBZ] OT EV airplanes in the near future
>> > > > >
>> > > > > Commercial flights on electric engines may arrive in
>> 2021Published:
>> > > > > Wednesday, April 3, 2019
>> > > > >
>> > > > > There's no shortage of companies working to build electric
>> aircraft,
>> > > but
>> > > > a
>> > > > > Canadian airline and a Seattle-area engine maker say they've
>> found a
>> > > > quicker
>> > > > > route to electrification by converting a small bush plane with
>> > > batteries
>> > > > and an
>> > > > > electric motor.
>> > > > >
>> > > > > The first passenger flights for British Columbia-based Harbour Air
>> > Ltd.
>> > > > > would be in late 2021 under a partnership with magniX
>> Technologies,
>> > > > pending
>> > > > > regulatory approvals, the companies said last week.
>> > > > >
>> > > > > They plan to swap kerosene fuel tanks for a magniX electric motor
>> and
>> > > > lithium-
>> > > > > ion battery packs on a Harbour Air de Havilland DHC-2 Beaver
>> > aircraft,
>> > > > which
>> > > > > seats six passengers, to begin test flights in November.
>> > > > > The propulsion system will have a range of about 100 miles.
>> > > > >
>> > > > > The goal is an emissions-free, quieter aircraft that is certified
>> by
>> > > > both U.S. and
>> > > > > Canadian aviation authorities, Greg McDougall, Harbour Air's
>> founder
>> > > and
>> > > > > chief executive officer, said in a telephone interview. The
>> suburban
>> > > > > Vancouver-based seaplane company flies about 500,000 passengers
>> each
>> > > year
>> > > > > from British Columbia and downtown Seattle.
>> > > > >
>> > > > > "I think electrification of all diffe

Re: [MBZ] OT EV airplanes in the near future

[Curt Raymond via Mercedes]

 This isn't a "little white lie" its a massive "Everything I'm saying is wrong" 
lie...

On Thursday, April 4, 2019, 2:53:50 PM EDT, Andrew Strasfogel 
 wrote:  
 
 So if I understand you correctly, if there is one single little white lie, 
that would offend you more than relying on coal-fired emissions which would 
pollute the air and shorten your life span. Is that correct?
On Thu, Apr 4, 2019, 2:34 PM Curt Raymond via Mercedes  
wrote:

 I have a problem with being lied to about "no emissions". Its such a blatant 
obvious lie too.
Actually the worst is the "Partial zero emissions"...
-Curt

    On Thursday, April 4, 2019, 2:30:21 PM EDT, Andrew Strasfogel 
 wrote:  

 Dos Curt have a problem with breathing unpolluted air?

On Thu, Apr 4, 2019 at 1:40 PM Curt Raymond  wrote:

 What makes it "right"?
-Curt

    On Thursday, April 4, 2019, 1:36:55 PM EDT, Andrew Strasfogel via Mercedes 
 wrote:  

 Think positively: we're heading in the right direction.

On Thu, Apr 4, 2019 at 1:29 PM OK Don via Mercedes 
wrote:

> Wouldn't the aluminum skin/frame make a Faraday shield? Now a tube and rag
> plane would probably fall out of the sky - but the blast would do it in
> anyway.
>
> On Thu, Apr 4, 2019 at 12:25 PM G Mann via Mercedes  >
> wrote:
>
> > Which raises another question. What happens to an EV airplane in an EMP
> > event?
> >
> > Will the computer nannies have thought to built in protections?
> >
> > On Wed, Apr 3, 2019 at 10:03 PM Scott Ritchey via Mercedes <
> > mercedes@okiebenz.com> wrote:
> >
> > > Isn't that the same year the world ends from global warming?
> > >
> > > > -Original Message-
> > > > From: Mercedes [mailto:mercedes-boun...@okiebenz.com] On Behalf Of
> > > > Andrew Strasfogel via Mercedes
> > > > Sent: Wednesday, April 03, 2019 9:58 AM
> > > > To: Mercedes Discussion List 
> > > > Cc: Andrew Strasfogel 
> > > > Subject: [MBZ] OT EV airplanes in the near future
> > > >
> > > > Commercial flights on electric engines may arrive in 2021Published:
> > > > Wednesday, April 3, 2019
> > > >
> > > > There's no shortage of companies working to build electric aircraft,
> > but
> > > a
> > > > Canadian airline and a Seattle-area engine maker say they've found a
> > > quicker
> > > > route to electrification by converting a small bush plane with
> > batteries
> > > and an
> > > > electric motor.
> > > >
> > > > The first passenger flights for British Columbia-based Harbour Air
> Ltd.
> > > > would be in late 2021 under a partnership with magniX Technologies,
> > > pending
> > > > regulatory approvals, the companies said last week.
> > > >
> > > > They plan to swap kerosene fuel tanks for a magniX electric motor and
> > > lithium-
> > > > ion battery packs on a Harbour Air de Havilland DHC-2 Beaver
> aircraft,
> > > which
> > > > seats six passengers, to begin test flights in November.
> > > > The propulsion system will have a range of about 100 miles.
> > > >
> > > > The goal is an emissions-free, quieter aircraft that is certified by
> > > both U.S. and
> > > > Canadian aviation authorities, Greg McDougall, Harbour Air's founder
> > and
> > > > chief executive officer, said in a telephone interview. The suburban
> > > > Vancouver-based seaplane company flies about 500,000 passengers each
> > year
> > > > from British Columbia and downtown Seattle.
> > > >
> > > > "I think electrification of all different vehicles now is going to
> > > become so
> > > > prevalent it's just going to be something like, 'Oh, that's something
> > > going
> > > > electric as well,'" McDougall said. "It's just a natural evolution."
> > > >
> > > > Worldwide, there are some 100 different electric-aircraft programs in
> > > > development, according to an estimate by consulting firm Roland
> Berger
> > > > GmbH. Zunum Aero Inc., backed by Boeing Co. and JetBlue Airways
> Corp.,
> > > aims
> > > > to bring a hybrid-electric commuter model to market by 2022, while
> Joby
> > > > Aviation Inc., another JetBlue-backed electric firm, is working on a
> > > five-seat
> > > > aircraft with a 150-mile range.
> > > >
> > > > Batteries remain the limiting factor for electrical propulsion in
> > > aviatio

Re: [MBZ] OT EV airplanes in the near future

[Andrew Strasfogel via Mercedes]

So if I understand you correctly, if there is one single little white lie,
that would offend you more than relying on coal-fired emissions which would
pollute the air and shorten your life span. Is that correct?

On Thu, Apr 4, 2019, 2:34 PM Curt Raymond via Mercedes <
mercedes@okiebenz.com> wrote:

>  I have a problem with being lied to about "no emissions". Its such a
> blatant obvious lie too.
> Actually the worst is the "Partial zero emissions"...
> -Curt
>
> On Thursday, April 4, 2019, 2:30:21 PM EDT, Andrew Strasfogel <
> astrasfo...@gmail.com> wrote:
>
>  Dos Curt have a problem with breathing unpolluted air?
>
> On Thu, Apr 4, 2019 at 1:40 PM Curt Raymond  wrote:
>
>  What makes it "right"?
> -Curt
>
> On Thursday, April 4, 2019, 1:36:55 PM EDT, Andrew Strasfogel via
> Mercedes  wrote:
>
>  Think positively: we're heading in the right direction.
>
> On Thu, Apr 4, 2019 at 1:29 PM OK Don via Mercedes 
> wrote:
>
> > Wouldn't the aluminum skin/frame make a Faraday shield? Now a tube and
> rag
> > plane would probably fall out of the sky - but the blast would do it in
> > anyway.
> >
> > On Thu, Apr 4, 2019 at 12:25 PM G Mann via Mercedes <
> mercedes@okiebenz.com
> > >
> > wrote:
> >
> > > Which raises another question. What happens to an EV airplane in an EMP
> > > event?
> > >
> > > Will the computer nannies have thought to built in protections?
> > >
> > > On Wed, Apr 3, 2019 at 10:03 PM Scott Ritchey via Mercedes <
> > > mercedes@okiebenz.com> wrote:
> > >
> > > > Isn't that the same year the world ends from global warming?
> > > >
> > > > > -----Original Message-
> > > > > From: Mercedes [mailto:mercedes-boun...@okiebenz.com] On Behalf Of
> > > > > Andrew Strasfogel via Mercedes
> > > > > Sent: Wednesday, April 03, 2019 9:58 AM
> > > > > To: Mercedes Discussion List 
> > > > > Cc: Andrew Strasfogel 
> > > > > Subject: [MBZ] OT EV airplanes in the near future
> > > > >
> > > > > Commercial flights on electric engines may arrive in 2021Published:
> > > > > Wednesday, April 3, 2019
> > > > >
> > > > > There's no shortage of companies working to build electric
> aircraft,
> > > but
> > > > a
> > > > > Canadian airline and a Seattle-area engine maker say they've found
> a
> > > > quicker
> > > > > route to electrification by converting a small bush plane with
> > > batteries
> > > > and an
> > > > > electric motor.
> > > > >
> > > > > The first passenger flights for British Columbia-based Harbour Air
> > Ltd.
> > > > > would be in late 2021 under a partnership with magniX Technologies,
> > > > pending
> > > > > regulatory approvals, the companies said last week.
> > > > >
> > > > > They plan to swap kerosene fuel tanks for a magniX electric motor
> and
> > > > lithium-
> > > > > ion battery packs on a Harbour Air de Havilland DHC-2 Beaver
> > aircraft,
> > > > which
> > > > > seats six passengers, to begin test flights in November.
> > > > > The propulsion system will have a range of about 100 miles.
> > > > >
> > > > > The goal is an emissions-free, quieter aircraft that is certified
> by
> > > > both U.S. and
> > > > > Canadian aviation authorities, Greg McDougall, Harbour Air's
> founder
> > > and
> > > > > chief executive officer, said in a telephone interview. The
> suburban
> > > > > Vancouver-based seaplane company flies about 500,000 passengers
> each
> > > year
> > > > > from British Columbia and downtown Seattle.
> > > > >
> > > > > "I think electrification of all different vehicles now is going to
> > > > become so
> > > > > prevalent it's just going to be something like, 'Oh, that's
> something
> > > > going
> > > > > electric as well,'" McDougall said. "It's just a natural
> evolution."
> > > > >
> > > > > Worldwide, there are some 100 different electric-aircraft programs
> in
> > > > > development, according to an estimate by consulting firm Roland
> > Berger
> > > > > GmbH. Zunum Aero Inc., backed by Boeing Co. and JetBlue Airways
> 

Re: [MBZ] OT EV airplanes in the near future

[Curt Raymond via Mercedes]

 I have a problem with being lied to about "no emissions". Its such a blatant 
obvious lie too.
Actually the worst is the "Partial zero emissions"...
-Curt

On Thursday, April 4, 2019, 2:30:21 PM EDT, Andrew Strasfogel 
 wrote:  
 
 Dos Curt have a problem with breathing unpolluted air?

On Thu, Apr 4, 2019 at 1:40 PM Curt Raymond  wrote:

 What makes it "right"?
-Curt

On Thursday, April 4, 2019, 1:36:55 PM EDT, Andrew Strasfogel via Mercedes 
 wrote:  
 
 Think positively: we're heading in the right direction.

On Thu, Apr 4, 2019 at 1:29 PM OK Don via Mercedes 
wrote:

> Wouldn't the aluminum skin/frame make a Faraday shield? Now a tube and rag
> plane would probably fall out of the sky - but the blast would do it in
> anyway.
>
> On Thu, Apr 4, 2019 at 12:25 PM G Mann via Mercedes  >
> wrote:
>
> > Which raises another question. What happens to an EV airplane in an EMP
> > event?
> >
> > Will the computer nannies have thought to built in protections?
> >
> > On Wed, Apr 3, 2019 at 10:03 PM Scott Ritchey via Mercedes <
> > mercedes@okiebenz.com> wrote:
> >
> > > Isn't that the same year the world ends from global warming?
> > >
> > > > -Original Message-
> > > > From: Mercedes [mailto:mercedes-boun...@okiebenz.com] On Behalf Of
> > > > Andrew Strasfogel via Mercedes
> > > > Sent: Wednesday, April 03, 2019 9:58 AM
> > > > To: Mercedes Discussion List 
> > > > Cc: Andrew Strasfogel 
> > > > Subject: [MBZ] OT EV airplanes in the near future
> > > >
> > > > Commercial flights on electric engines may arrive in 2021Published:
> > > > Wednesday, April 3, 2019
> > > >
> > > > There's no shortage of companies working to build electric aircraft,
> > but
> > > a
> > > > Canadian airline and a Seattle-area engine maker say they've found a
> > > quicker
> > > > route to electrification by converting a small bush plane with
> > batteries
> > > and an
> > > > electric motor.
> > > >
> > > > The first passenger flights for British Columbia-based Harbour Air
> Ltd.
> > > > would be in late 2021 under a partnership with magniX Technologies,
> > > pending
> > > > regulatory approvals, the companies said last week.
> > > >
> > > > They plan to swap kerosene fuel tanks for a magniX electric motor and
> > > lithium-
> > > > ion battery packs on a Harbour Air de Havilland DHC-2 Beaver
> aircraft,
> > > which
> > > > seats six passengers, to begin test flights in November.
> > > > The propulsion system will have a range of about 100 miles.
> > > >
> > > > The goal is an emissions-free, quieter aircraft that is certified by
> > > both U.S. and
> > > > Canadian aviation authorities, Greg McDougall, Harbour Air's founder
> > and
> > > > chief executive officer, said in a telephone interview. The suburban
> > > > Vancouver-based seaplane company flies about 500,000 passengers each
> > year
> > > > from British Columbia and downtown Seattle.
> > > >
> > > > "I think electrification of all different vehicles now is going to
> > > become so
> > > > prevalent it's just going to be something like, 'Oh, that's something
> > > going
> > > > electric as well,'" McDougall said. "It's just a natural evolution."
> > > >
> > > > Worldwide, there are some 100 different electric-aircraft programs in
> > > > development, according to an estimate by consulting firm Roland
> Berger
> > > > GmbH. Zunum Aero Inc., backed by Boeing Co. and JetBlue Airways
> Corp.,
> > > aims
> > > > to bring a hybrid-electric commuter model to market by 2022, while
> Joby
> > > > Aviation Inc., another JetBlue-backed electric firm, is working on a
> > > five-seat
> > > > aircraft with a 150-mile range.
> > > >
> > > > Batteries remain the limiting factor for electrical propulsion in
> > > aviation, said
> > > > Roei Ganzarski, magniX's CEO and a former Boeing executive. The
> > > > magni500 electric motor to be used in the Harbour Air flight testing
> is
> > > rated for
> > > > 750 horsepower and offers a 60-minute range, more than twice as long
> as
> > > > Harbour's average flight, Ganzarski said, allowing for a 30-minute
> > > reserve on
> > > > the batteries.
> > 

Re: [MBZ] OT EV airplanes in the near future

[Craig via Mercedes]

On Thu, 4 Apr 2019 12:28:24 -0500 OK Don via Mercedes
 wrote:

> Wouldn't the aluminum skin/frame make a Faraday shield?

There are too many holes and slots in the aluminum skin for it to be an
effective Faraday cage.


> Now a tube and rag plane would probably fall out of the sky - but the
> blast would do it in anyway.

The whole point of initiating an EMP event is to cover as much area
on the ground as possible, so the device is detonated much above the
atmosphere. The atoms which make up the device are ionized and become
the accelerating charge which causes the EMP.


Craig

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Re: [MBZ] OT EV airplanes in the near future

[Curt Raymond via Mercedes]

 What makes it "right"?
-Curt

On Thursday, April 4, 2019, 1:36:55 PM EDT, Andrew Strasfogel via Mercedes 
 wrote:  
 
 Think positively: we're heading in the right direction.

On Thu, Apr 4, 2019 at 1:29 PM OK Don via Mercedes 
wrote:

> Wouldn't the aluminum skin/frame make a Faraday shield? Now a tube and rag
> plane would probably fall out of the sky - but the blast would do it in
> anyway.
>
> On Thu, Apr 4, 2019 at 12:25 PM G Mann via Mercedes  >
> wrote:
>
> > Which raises another question. What happens to an EV airplane in an EMP
> > event?
> >
> > Will the computer nannies have thought to built in protections?
> >
> > On Wed, Apr 3, 2019 at 10:03 PM Scott Ritchey via Mercedes <
> > mercedes@okiebenz.com> wrote:
> >
> > > Isn't that the same year the world ends from global warming?
> > >
> > > > -Original Message-
> > > > From: Mercedes [mailto:mercedes-boun...@okiebenz.com] On Behalf Of
> > > > Andrew Strasfogel via Mercedes
> > > > Sent: Wednesday, April 03, 2019 9:58 AM
> > > > To: Mercedes Discussion List 
> > > > Cc: Andrew Strasfogel 
> > > > Subject: [MBZ] OT EV airplanes in the near future
> > > >
> > > > Commercial flights on electric engines may arrive in 2021Published:
> > > > Wednesday, April 3, 2019
> > > >
> > > > There's no shortage of companies working to build electric aircraft,
> > but
> > > a
> > > > Canadian airline and a Seattle-area engine maker say they've found a
> > > quicker
> > > > route to electrification by converting a small bush plane with
> > batteries
> > > and an
> > > > electric motor.
> > > >
> > > > The first passenger flights for British Columbia-based Harbour Air
> Ltd.
> > > > would be in late 2021 under a partnership with magniX Technologies,
> > > pending
> > > > regulatory approvals, the companies said last week.
> > > >
> > > > They plan to swap kerosene fuel tanks for a magniX electric motor and
> > > lithium-
> > > > ion battery packs on a Harbour Air de Havilland DHC-2 Beaver
> aircraft,
> > > which
> > > > seats six passengers, to begin test flights in November.
> > > > The propulsion system will have a range of about 100 miles.
> > > >
> > > > The goal is an emissions-free, quieter aircraft that is certified by
> > > both U.S. and
> > > > Canadian aviation authorities, Greg McDougall, Harbour Air's founder
> > and
> > > > chief executive officer, said in a telephone interview. The suburban
> > > > Vancouver-based seaplane company flies about 500,000 passengers each
> > year
> > > > from British Columbia and downtown Seattle.
> > > >
> > > > "I think electrification of all different vehicles now is going to
> > > become so
> > > > prevalent it's just going to be something like, 'Oh, that's something
> > > going
> > > > electric as well,'" McDougall said. "It's just a natural evolution."
> > > >
> > > > Worldwide, there are some 100 different electric-aircraft programs in
> > > > development, according to an estimate by consulting firm Roland
> Berger
> > > > GmbH. Zunum Aero Inc., backed by Boeing Co. and JetBlue Airways
> Corp.,
> > > aims
> > > > to bring a hybrid-electric commuter model to market by 2022, while
> Joby
> > > > Aviation Inc., another JetBlue-backed electric firm, is working on a
> > > five-seat
> > > > aircraft with a 150-mile range.
> > > >
> > > > Batteries remain the limiting factor for electrical propulsion in
> > > aviation, said
> > > > Roei Ganzarski, magniX's CEO and a former Boeing executive. The
> > > > magni500 electric motor to be used in the Harbour Air flight testing
> is
> > > rated for
> > > > 750 horsepower and offers a 60-minute range, more than twice as long
> as
> > > > Harbour's average flight, Ganzarski said, allowing for a 30-minute
> > > reserve on
> > > > the batteries.
> > > >
> > > > The converted plane will weigh the same as the conventional Beaver
> > model
> > > > powered by a Pratt & Whitney PT6 engine, Ganzarski said. Over time,
> > > Harbour
> > > > plans to convert its 15 Beavers and 22 DHC-3 Single Otter seaplanes
> to
> > > electric
> > &g

Re: [MBZ] OT EV airplanes in the near future

[Andrew Strasfogel via Mercedes]

Think positively: we're heading in the right direction.

On Thu, Apr 4, 2019 at 1:29 PM OK Don via Mercedes 
wrote:

> Wouldn't the aluminum skin/frame make a Faraday shield? Now a tube and rag
> plane would probably fall out of the sky - but the blast would do it in
> anyway.
>
> On Thu, Apr 4, 2019 at 12:25 PM G Mann via Mercedes  >
> wrote:
>
> > Which raises another question. What happens to an EV airplane in an EMP
> > event?
> >
> > Will the computer nannies have thought to built in protections?
> >
> > On Wed, Apr 3, 2019 at 10:03 PM Scott Ritchey via Mercedes <
> > mercedes@okiebenz.com> wrote:
> >
> > > Isn't that the same year the world ends from global warming?
> > >
> > > > -Original Message-
> > > > From: Mercedes [mailto:mercedes-boun...@okiebenz.com] On Behalf Of
> > > > Andrew Strasfogel via Mercedes
> > > > Sent: Wednesday, April 03, 2019 9:58 AM
> > > > To: Mercedes Discussion List 
> > > > Cc: Andrew Strasfogel 
> > > > Subject: [MBZ] OT EV airplanes in the near future
> > > >
> > > > Commercial flights on electric engines may arrive in 2021Published:
> > > > Wednesday, April 3, 2019
> > > >
> > > > There's no shortage of companies working to build electric aircraft,
> > but
> > > a
> > > > Canadian airline and a Seattle-area engine maker say they've found a
> > > quicker
> > > > route to electrification by converting a small bush plane with
> > batteries
> > > and an
> > > > electric motor.
> > > >
> > > > The first passenger flights for British Columbia-based Harbour Air
> Ltd.
> > > > would be in late 2021 under a partnership with magniX Technologies,
> > > pending
> > > > regulatory approvals, the companies said last week.
> > > >
> > > > They plan to swap kerosene fuel tanks for a magniX electric motor and
> > > lithium-
> > > > ion battery packs on a Harbour Air de Havilland DHC-2 Beaver
> aircraft,
> > > which
> > > > seats six passengers, to begin test flights in November.
> > > > The propulsion system will have a range of about 100 miles.
> > > >
> > > > The goal is an emissions-free, quieter aircraft that is certified by
> > > both U.S. and
> > > > Canadian aviation authorities, Greg McDougall, Harbour Air's founder
> > and
> > > > chief executive officer, said in a telephone interview. The suburban
> > > > Vancouver-based seaplane company flies about 500,000 passengers each
> > year
> > > > from British Columbia and downtown Seattle.
> > > >
> > > > "I think electrification of all different vehicles now is going to
> > > become so
> > > > prevalent it's just going to be something like, 'Oh, that's something
> > > going
> > > > electric as well,'" McDougall said. "It's just a natural evolution."
> > > >
> > > > Worldwide, there are some 100 different electric-aircraft programs in
> > > > development, according to an estimate by consulting firm Roland
> Berger
> > > > GmbH. Zunum Aero Inc., backed by Boeing Co. and JetBlue Airways
> Corp.,
> > > aims
> > > > to bring a hybrid-electric commuter model to market by 2022, while
> Joby
> > > > Aviation Inc., another JetBlue-backed electric firm, is working on a
> > > five-seat
> > > > aircraft with a 150-mile range.
> > > >
> > > > Batteries remain the limiting factor for electrical propulsion in
> > > aviation, said
> > > > Roei Ganzarski, magniX's CEO and a former Boeing executive. The
> > > > magni500 electric motor to be used in the Harbour Air flight testing
> is
> > > rated for
> > > > 750 horsepower and offers a 60-minute range, more than twice as long
> as
> > > > Harbour's average flight, Ganzarski said, allowing for a 30-minute
> > > reserve on
> > > > the batteries.
> > > >
> > > > The converted plane will weigh the same as the conventional Beaver
> > model
> > > > powered by a Pratt & Whitney PT6 engine, Ganzarski said. Over time,
> > > Harbour
> > > > plans to convert its 15 Beavers and 22 DHC-3 Single Otter seaplanes
> to
> > > electric
> > > > motors, McDougall said. The flight testing aims to win regulatory
> > > certifications
> > > > both for th

Re: [MBZ] OT EV airplanes in the near future

[OK Don via Mercedes]

Wouldn't the aluminum skin/frame make a Faraday shield? Now a tube and rag
plane would probably fall out of the sky - but the blast would do it in
anyway.

On Thu, Apr 4, 2019 at 12:25 PM G Mann via Mercedes 
wrote:

> Which raises another question. What happens to an EV airplane in an EMP
> event?
>
> Will the computer nannies have thought to built in protections?
>
> On Wed, Apr 3, 2019 at 10:03 PM Scott Ritchey via Mercedes <
> mercedes@okiebenz.com> wrote:
>
> > Isn't that the same year the world ends from global warming?
> >
> > > -Original Message-
> > > From: Mercedes [mailto:mercedes-boun...@okiebenz.com] On Behalf Of
> > > Andrew Strasfogel via Mercedes
> > > Sent: Wednesday, April 03, 2019 9:58 AM
> > > To: Mercedes Discussion List 
> > > Cc: Andrew Strasfogel 
> > > Subject: [MBZ] OT EV airplanes in the near future
> > >
> > > Commercial flights on electric engines may arrive in 2021Published:
> > > Wednesday, April 3, 2019
> > >
> > > There's no shortage of companies working to build electric aircraft,
> but
> > a
> > > Canadian airline and a Seattle-area engine maker say they've found a
> > quicker
> > > route to electrification by converting a small bush plane with
> batteries
> > and an
> > > electric motor.
> > >
> > > The first passenger flights for British Columbia-based Harbour Air Ltd.
> > > would be in late 2021 under a partnership with magniX Technologies,
> > pending
> > > regulatory approvals, the companies said last week.
> > >
> > > They plan to swap kerosene fuel tanks for a magniX electric motor and
> > lithium-
> > > ion battery packs on a Harbour Air de Havilland DHC-2 Beaver aircraft,
> > which
> > > seats six passengers, to begin test flights in November.
> > > The propulsion system will have a range of about 100 miles.
> > >
> > > The goal is an emissions-free, quieter aircraft that is certified by
> > both U.S. and
> > > Canadian aviation authorities, Greg McDougall, Harbour Air's founder
> and
> > > chief executive officer, said in a telephone interview. The suburban
> > > Vancouver-based seaplane company flies about 500,000 passengers each
> year
> > > from British Columbia and downtown Seattle.
> > >
> > > "I think electrification of all different vehicles now is going to
> > become so
> > > prevalent it's just going to be something like, 'Oh, that's something
> > going
> > > electric as well,'" McDougall said. "It's just a natural evolution."
> > >
> > > Worldwide, there are some 100 different electric-aircraft programs in
> > > development, according to an estimate by consulting firm Roland Berger
> > > GmbH. Zunum Aero Inc., backed by Boeing Co. and JetBlue Airways Corp.,
> > aims
> > > to bring a hybrid-electric commuter model to market by 2022, while Joby
> > > Aviation Inc., another JetBlue-backed electric firm, is working on a
> > five-seat
> > > aircraft with a 150-mile range.
> > >
> > > Batteries remain the limiting factor for electrical propulsion in
> > aviation, said
> > > Roei Ganzarski, magniX's CEO and a former Boeing executive. The
> > > magni500 electric motor to be used in the Harbour Air flight testing is
> > rated for
> > > 750 horsepower and offers a 60-minute range, more than twice as long as
> > > Harbour's average flight, Ganzarski said, allowing for a 30-minute
> > reserve on
> > > the batteries.
> > >
> > > The converted plane will weigh the same as the conventional Beaver
> model
> > > powered by a Pratt & Whitney PT6 engine, Ganzarski said. Over time,
> > Harbour
> > > plans to convert its 15 Beavers and 22 DHC-3 Single Otter seaplanes to
> > electric
> > > motors, McDougall said. The flight testing aims to win regulatory
> > certifications
> > > both for the electric propulsion system and for commercial conversions
> > of the
> > > de Havilland aircraft. McDougall said one primary goal of the testing
> > will be to
> > > show that the electric motor is "at least as safe or safer" than the
> > current
> > > engine.
> > >
> > > Longer term, Ganzarski predicts that electric motors will lead to a
> > "resurgence"
> > > in the regional airline industry for trips under 1,000 miles with new
> > aircraft
> > > designed for 10-25 passengers.

Re: [MBZ] OT EV airplanes in the near future

[Meade Dillon via Mercedes]

So now "renewable" share of power generation is up to maybe 3%?  4%?  Lions
share is coal, natural gas, nukes.  I think natural gas may be eclipsed
coal?
-
Max
Charleston SC


On Thu, Apr 4, 2019 at 1:22 PM Andrew Strasfogel via Mercedes <
mercedes@okiebenz.com> wrote:

> Most new sources of power in the USA are renewable energy which is non
> emitting (solar and wind), plus some geothermal.  The trend is your
> friend..
>
> On Thu, Apr 4, 2019 at 8:55 AM Curley McLain via Mercedes <
> mercedes@okiebenz.com> wrote:
>
> > Last summer there were 3 tesla cars in the Independence Day parade,
> > complete with banner proclaiming "zero emissions."  A couple of them
> > were also in the local car show, with the banner.  The show is pretty
> > good sized.  There are probably 200-300 cars there.   I did not
> > challenge them, but If I see similar lies this summer, I have a strategy
> > to question them about where and how the things are made, and let them
> > come to the realization that the "zero emissions" is feel good
> > propaganda, otherwise known as a lie.
> >
> > Meade Dillon via Mercedes wrote on 4/4/19 7:12 AM:
> > > Last night I was helping my daughter with her science homework,
> > > electricity, magnetism and electromagnets.  Her science book is full of
> > > propaganda: the opening page on electromagnets is about a chinese
> maglev
> > > train, which "produces no pollution".  I threw up a bit in my mouth,
> but
> > > pressed on with addressing the actual questions she had and checking
> her
> > > answers.  Many times I've pointed out that electric cars are really
> just
> > > moving the pollution generation to the power plant which is usually
> coal
> > > powered and far more polluting (spewing uranium and mercury and other
> > heavy
> > > metals into the air).  I call them coal powered cars, she gets it.
> I'll
> > > make a point of that maglev train "no pollution" fallacy later today.
> > > -
> > > Max
> > > Charleston SC
> > >
> >
> >
> > ___
> > http://www.okiebenz.com
> >
> > To search list archives http://www.okiebenz.com/archive/
> >
> > To Unsubscribe or change delivery options go to:
> > http://mail.okiebenz.com/mailman/listinfo/mercedes_okiebenz.com
> >
> >
> ___
> http://www.okiebenz.com
>
> To search list archives http://www.okiebenz.com/archive/
>
> To Unsubscribe or change delivery options go to:
> http://mail.okiebenz.com/mailman/listinfo/mercedes_okiebenz.com
>
>
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To Unsubscribe or change delivery options go to:
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Re: [MBZ] OT EV airplanes in the near future

[OK Don via Mercedes]

There is emission in the manufacture of the panels and turbines though, and
it takes a LOT of them. "No such thing as a free lunch". I guess thorium
reactors are the closest we'll come to it.

On Thu, Apr 4, 2019 at 12:22 PM Andrew Strasfogel via Mercedes <
mercedes@okiebenz.com> wrote:

> Most new sources of power in the USA are renewable energy which is non
> emitting (solar and wind), plus some geothermal.  The trend is your
> friend..
>
> On Thu, Apr 4, 2019 at 8:55 AM Curley McLain via Mercedes <
> mercedes@okiebenz.com> wrote:
>
> > Last summer there were 3 tesla cars in the Independence Day parade,
> > complete with banner proclaiming "zero emissions."  A couple of them
> > were also in the local car show, with the banner.  The show is pretty
> > good sized.  There are probably 200-300 cars there.   I did not
> > challenge them, but If I see similar lies this summer, I have a strategy
> > to question them about where and how the things are made, and let them
> > come to the realization that the "zero emissions" is feel good
> > propaganda, otherwise known as a lie.
> >
> > Meade Dillon via Mercedes wrote on 4/4/19 7:12 AM:
> > > Last night I was helping my daughter with her science homework,
> > > electricity, magnetism and electromagnets.  Her science book is full of
> > > propaganda: the opening page on electromagnets is about a chinese
> maglev
> > > train, which "produces no pollution".  I threw up a bit in my mouth,
> but
> > > pressed on with addressing the actual questions she had and checking
> her
> > > answers.  Many times I've pointed out that electric cars are really
> just
> > > moving the pollution generation to the power plant which is usually
> coal
> > > powered and far more polluting (spewing uranium and mercury and other
> > heavy
> > > metals into the air).  I call them coal powered cars, she gets it.
> I'll
> > > make a point of that maglev train "no pollution" fallacy later today.
> > > -
> > > Max
> > > Charleston SC
> > >
> >
> >
> > ___
> > http://www.okiebenz.com
> >
> > To search list archives http://www.okiebenz.com/archive/
> >
> > To Unsubscribe or change delivery options go to:
> > http://mail.okiebenz.com/mailman/listinfo/mercedes_okiebenz.com
> >
> >
> ___
> http://www.okiebenz.com
>
> To search list archives http://www.okiebenz.com/archive/
>
> To Unsubscribe or change delivery options go to:
> http://mail.okiebenz.com/mailman/listinfo/mercedes_okiebenz.com
>
>

-- 
OK Don

*“Travel is fatal to prejudice, bigotry and narrow-mindedness, and many of
our people need it sorely on these accounts.”* – Mark Twain

"There are three kinds of men: The ones that learns by reading. The few who
learn by observation. The rest of them have to pee on the electric fence
for themselves."

WILL ROGERS, *The Manly Wisdom of Will Rogers*
2013 F150, 18 mpg
2017 Subaru Legacy, 30 mpg
1957 C182A, 12 mpg - but at 150 mph!
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Re: [MBZ] OT EV airplanes in the near future

[G Mann via Mercedes]

Which raises another question. What happens to an EV airplane in an EMP
event?

Will the computer nannies have thought to built in protections?

On Wed, Apr 3, 2019 at 10:03 PM Scott Ritchey via Mercedes <
mercedes@okiebenz.com> wrote:

> Isn't that the same year the world ends from global warming?
>
> > -Original Message-
> > From: Mercedes [mailto:mercedes-boun...@okiebenz.com] On Behalf Of
> > Andrew Strasfogel via Mercedes
> > Sent: Wednesday, April 03, 2019 9:58 AM
> > To: Mercedes Discussion List 
> > Cc: Andrew Strasfogel 
> > Subject: [MBZ] OT EV airplanes in the near future
> >
> > Commercial flights on electric engines may arrive in 2021Published:
> > Wednesday, April 3, 2019
> >
> > There's no shortage of companies working to build electric aircraft, but
> a
> > Canadian airline and a Seattle-area engine maker say they've found a
> quicker
> > route to electrification by converting a small bush plane with batteries
> and an
> > electric motor.
> >
> > The first passenger flights for British Columbia-based Harbour Air Ltd.
> > would be in late 2021 under a partnership with magniX Technologies,
> pending
> > regulatory approvals, the companies said last week.
> >
> > They plan to swap kerosene fuel tanks for a magniX electric motor and
> lithium-
> > ion battery packs on a Harbour Air de Havilland DHC-2 Beaver aircraft,
> which
> > seats six passengers, to begin test flights in November.
> > The propulsion system will have a range of about 100 miles.
> >
> > The goal is an emissions-free, quieter aircraft that is certified by
> both U.S. and
> > Canadian aviation authorities, Greg McDougall, Harbour Air's founder and
> > chief executive officer, said in a telephone interview. The suburban
> > Vancouver-based seaplane company flies about 500,000 passengers each year
> > from British Columbia and downtown Seattle.
> >
> > "I think electrification of all different vehicles now is going to
> become so
> > prevalent it's just going to be something like, 'Oh, that's something
> going
> > electric as well,'" McDougall said. "It's just a natural evolution."
> >
> > Worldwide, there are some 100 different electric-aircraft programs in
> > development, according to an estimate by consulting firm Roland Berger
> > GmbH. Zunum Aero Inc., backed by Boeing Co. and JetBlue Airways Corp.,
> aims
> > to bring a hybrid-electric commuter model to market by 2022, while Joby
> > Aviation Inc., another JetBlue-backed electric firm, is working on a
> five-seat
> > aircraft with a 150-mile range.
> >
> > Batteries remain the limiting factor for electrical propulsion in
> aviation, said
> > Roei Ganzarski, magniX's CEO and a former Boeing executive. The
> > magni500 electric motor to be used in the Harbour Air flight testing is
> rated for
> > 750 horsepower and offers a 60-minute range, more than twice as long as
> > Harbour's average flight, Ganzarski said, allowing for a 30-minute
> reserve on
> > the batteries.
> >
> > The converted plane will weigh the same as the conventional Beaver model
> > powered by a Pratt & Whitney PT6 engine, Ganzarski said. Over time,
> Harbour
> > plans to convert its 15 Beavers and 22 DHC-3 Single Otter seaplanes to
> electric
> > motors, McDougall said. The flight testing aims to win regulatory
> certifications
> > both for the electric propulsion system and for commercial conversions
> of the
> > de Havilland aircraft. McDougall said one primary goal of the testing
> will be to
> > show that the electric motor is "at least as safe or safer" than the
> current
> > engine.
> >
> > Longer term, Ganzarski predicts that electric motors will lead to a
> "resurgence"
> > in the regional airline industry for trips under 1,000 miles with new
> aircraft
> > designed for 10-25 passengers. North American carriers have struggled to
> fly in
> > some of the smallest markets as most commercial aircraft flying today
> have at
> > least 50 seats, too many for thinner routes.
> >
> > "By 2025, 1,000 miles is going to be easily done," Ganzarski said, based
> on the
> > evolution of current battery technologies. "I'm not saying 5,000 miles,
> but
> > 1,000 miles, easily. I don't think that's far-fetched or a
> pie-in-the-sky thing."
> > *— Justin Bachman, Bloomberg*
> > ___
> > http://www.okiebenz.com
> >
> > To search list archives http://www.okiebenz.com/archive/
> &g

Re: [MBZ] OT EV airplanes in the near future

[Andrew Strasfogel via Mercedes]

Most new sources of power in the USA are renewable energy which is non
emitting (solar and wind), plus some geothermal.  The trend is your friend..

On Thu, Apr 4, 2019 at 8:55 AM Curley McLain via Mercedes <
mercedes@okiebenz.com> wrote:

> Last summer there were 3 tesla cars in the Independence Day parade,
> complete with banner proclaiming "zero emissions."  A couple of them
> were also in the local car show, with the banner.  The show is pretty
> good sized.  There are probably 200-300 cars there.   I did not
> challenge them, but If I see similar lies this summer, I have a strategy
> to question them about where and how the things are made, and let them
> come to the realization that the "zero emissions" is feel good
> propaganda, otherwise known as a lie.
>
> Meade Dillon via Mercedes wrote on 4/4/19 7:12 AM:
> > Last night I was helping my daughter with her science homework,
> > electricity, magnetism and electromagnets.  Her science book is full of
> > propaganda: the opening page on electromagnets is about a chinese maglev
> > train, which "produces no pollution".  I threw up a bit in my mouth, but
> > pressed on with addressing the actual questions she had and checking her
> > answers.  Many times I've pointed out that electric cars are really just
> > moving the pollution generation to the power plant which is usually coal
> > powered and far more polluting (spewing uranium and mercury and other
> heavy
> > metals into the air).  I call them coal powered cars, she gets it.  I'll
> > make a point of that maglev train "no pollution" fallacy later today.
> > -
> > Max
> > Charleston SC
> >
>
>
> ___
> http://www.okiebenz.com
>
> To search list archives http://www.okiebenz.com/archive/
>
> To Unsubscribe or change delivery options go to:
> http://mail.okiebenz.com/mailman/listinfo/mercedes_okiebenz.com
>
>
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Re: [MBZ] OT EV airplanes in the near future

[Curley McLain via Mercedes]

Last summer there were 3 tesla cars in the Independence Day parade, 
complete with banner proclaiming "zero emissions."  A couple of them 
were also in the local car show, with the banner.  The show is pretty 
good sized.  There are probably 200-300 cars there.   I did not 
challenge them, but If I see similar lies this summer, I have a strategy 
to question them about where and how the things are made, and let them 
come to the realization that the "zero emissions" is feel good 
propaganda, otherwise known as a lie.


Meade Dillon via Mercedes wrote on 4/4/19 7:12 AM:

Last night I was helping my daughter with her science homework,
electricity, magnetism and electromagnets.  Her science book is full of
propaganda: the opening page on electromagnets is about a chinese maglev
train, which "produces no pollution".  I threw up a bit in my mouth, but
pressed on with addressing the actual questions she had and checking her
answers.  Many times I've pointed out that electric cars are really just
moving the pollution generation to the power plant which is usually coal
powered and far more polluting (spewing uranium and mercury and other heavy
metals into the air).  I call them coal powered cars, she gets it.  I'll
make a point of that maglev train "no pollution" fallacy later today.
-
Max
Charleston SC




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Re: [MBZ] OT EV airplanes in the near future

[Curley McLain via Mercedes]

Meade Dillon via Mercedes wrote on 4/4/19 7:12 AM:

Last night I was helping my daughter with her science homework,
electricity, magnetism and electromagnets.  Her science book is full of
propaganda: the opening page on electromagnets is about a chinese maglev
train, which "produces no pollution".  I threw up a bit in my mouth, but
pressed on with addressing the actual questions she had and checking her
answers.  Many times I've pointed out that electric cars are really just
moving the pollution generation to the power plant which is usually coal
powered and far more polluting (spewing uranium and mercury and other heavy
metals into the air).  I call them coal powered cars, she gets it.  I'll
make a point of that maglev train "no pollution" fallacy later today.
-
Max
Charleston SC


On Thu, Apr 4, 2019 at 7:56 AM Dimitri Seretakis via Mercedes <
mercedes@okiebenz.com> wrote:


The hypocrisy of electric vehicles never ceases to amaze me. If you like
EVs that’s fine especially if you have a solar panel at your home to charge
them but the vast majority of people just use power from the grid. This
power has to come from somewhere.

Sent from my iPhone


On Apr 3, 2019, at 10:03 AM, Curley McLain via Mercedes <

mercedes@okiebenz.com> wrote:

BS

Andrew Strasfogel via Mercedes wrote on 4/3/19 8:58 AM:

Commercial flights on electric engines may arrive in 2021Published:
Wednesday, April 3, 2019

There's no shortage of companies working to build electric aircraft,

but a

Canadian airline and a Seattle-area engine maker say they've found a
quicker route to electrification by converting a small bush plane with
batteries and an electric motor.

The first passenger flights for British Columbia-based Harbour Air Ltd.
would be in late 2021 under a partnership with magniX Technologies,

pending

regulatory approvals, the companies said last week.

They plan to swap kerosene fuel tanks for a magniX electric motor and
lithium-ion battery packs on a Harbour Air de Havilland DHC-2 Beaver
aircraft, which seats six passengers, to begin test flights in November.
The propulsion system will have a range of about 100 miles.

The goal is an emissions-free, quieter aircraft that is certified by

both

U.S. and Canadian aviation authorities, Greg McDougall, Harbour Air's
founder and chief executive officer, said in a telephone interview. The
suburban Vancouver-based seaplane company flies about 500,000 passengers
each year from British Columbia and downtown Seattle.

"I think electrification of all different vehicles now is going to

become

so prevalent it's just going to be something like, 'Oh, that's something
going electric as well,'" McDougall said. "It's just a natural

evolution."

Worldwide, there are some 100 different electric-aircraft programs in
development, according to an estimate by consulting firm Roland Berger
GmbH. Zunum Aero Inc., backed by Boeing Co. and JetBlue Airways Corp.,

aims

to bring a hybrid-electric commuter model to market by 2022, while Joby
Aviation Inc., another JetBlue-backed electric firm, is working on a
five-seat aircraft with a 150-mile range.

Batteries remain the limiting factor for electrical propulsion in

aviation,

said Roei Ganzarski, magniX's CEO and a former Boeing executive. The
magni500 electric motor to be used in the Harbour Air flight testing is
rated for 750 horsepower and offers a 60-minute range, more than twice

as

long as Harbour's average flight, Ganzarski said, allowing for a

30-minute

reserve on the batteries.

The converted plane will weigh the same as the conventional Beaver model
powered by a Pratt & Whitney PT6 engine, Ganzarski said. Over time,

Harbour

plans to convert its 15 Beavers and 22 DHC-3 Single Otter seaplanes to
electric motors, McDougall said. The flight testing aims to win

regulatory

certifications both for the electric propulsion system and for

commercial

conversions of the de Havilland aircraft. McDougall said one primary

goal

of the testing will be to show that the electric motor is "at least as

safe

or safer" than the current engine.

Longer term, Ganzarski predicts that electric motors will lead to a
"resurgence" in the regional airline industry for trips under 1,000

miles

with new aircraft designed for 10-25 passengers. North American carriers
have struggled to fly in some of the smallest markets as most commercial
aircraft flying today have at least 50 seats, too many for thinner

routes.

"By 2025, 1,000 miles is going to be easily done," Ganzarski said,

based on

the evolution of current battery technologies. "I'm not saying 5,000

miles,

but 1,000 miles, easily. I don't think that's far-fetched or a
pie-in-the-sky thing." *— Justin Bachman, Bloomberg*
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Re: [MBZ] OT EV airplanes in the near future

[Meade Dillon via Mercedes]

Last night I was helping my daughter with her science homework,
electricity, magnetism and electromagnets.  Her science book is full of
propaganda: the opening page on electromagnets is about a chinese maglev
train, which "produces no pollution".  I threw up a bit in my mouth, but
pressed on with addressing the actual questions she had and checking her
answers.  Many times I've pointed out that electric cars are really just
moving the pollution generation to the power plant which is usually coal
powered and far more polluting (spewing uranium and mercury and other heavy
metals into the air).  I call them coal powered cars, she gets it.  I'll
make a point of that maglev train "no pollution" fallacy later today.
-
Max
Charleston SC


On Thu, Apr 4, 2019 at 7:56 AM Dimitri Seretakis via Mercedes <
mercedes@okiebenz.com> wrote:

> The hypocrisy of electric vehicles never ceases to amaze me. If you like
> EVs that’s fine especially if you have a solar panel at your home to charge
> them but the vast majority of people just use power from the grid. This
> power has to come from somewhere.
>
> Sent from my iPhone
>
> > On Apr 3, 2019, at 10:03 AM, Curley McLain via Mercedes <
> mercedes@okiebenz.com> wrote:
> >
> > BS
> >
> > Andrew Strasfogel via Mercedes wrote on 4/3/19 8:58 AM:
> >> Commercial flights on electric engines may arrive in 2021Published:
> >> Wednesday, April 3, 2019
> >>
> >> There's no shortage of companies working to build electric aircraft,
> but a
> >> Canadian airline and a Seattle-area engine maker say they've found a
> >> quicker route to electrification by converting a small bush plane with
> >> batteries and an electric motor.
> >>
> >> The first passenger flights for British Columbia-based Harbour Air Ltd.
> >> would be in late 2021 under a partnership with magniX Technologies,
> pending
> >> regulatory approvals, the companies said last week.
> >>
> >> They plan to swap kerosene fuel tanks for a magniX electric motor and
> >> lithium-ion battery packs on a Harbour Air de Havilland DHC-2 Beaver
> >> aircraft, which seats six passengers, to begin test flights in November.
> >> The propulsion system will have a range of about 100 miles.
> >>
> >> The goal is an emissions-free, quieter aircraft that is certified by
> both
> >> U.S. and Canadian aviation authorities, Greg McDougall, Harbour Air's
> >> founder and chief executive officer, said in a telephone interview. The
> >> suburban Vancouver-based seaplane company flies about 500,000 passengers
> >> each year from British Columbia and downtown Seattle.
> >>
> >> "I think electrification of all different vehicles now is going to
> become
> >> so prevalent it's just going to be something like, 'Oh, that's something
> >> going electric as well,'" McDougall said. "It's just a natural
> evolution."
> >>
> >> Worldwide, there are some 100 different electric-aircraft programs in
> >> development, according to an estimate by consulting firm Roland Berger
> >> GmbH. Zunum Aero Inc., backed by Boeing Co. and JetBlue Airways Corp.,
> aims
> >> to bring a hybrid-electric commuter model to market by 2022, while Joby
> >> Aviation Inc., another JetBlue-backed electric firm, is working on a
> >> five-seat aircraft with a 150-mile range.
> >>
> >> Batteries remain the limiting factor for electrical propulsion in
> aviation,
> >> said Roei Ganzarski, magniX's CEO and a former Boeing executive. The
> >> magni500 electric motor to be used in the Harbour Air flight testing is
> >> rated for 750 horsepower and offers a 60-minute range, more than twice
> as
> >> long as Harbour's average flight, Ganzarski said, allowing for a
> 30-minute
> >> reserve on the batteries.
> >>
> >> The converted plane will weigh the same as the conventional Beaver model
> >> powered by a Pratt & Whitney PT6 engine, Ganzarski said. Over time,
> Harbour
> >> plans to convert its 15 Beavers and 22 DHC-3 Single Otter seaplanes to
> >> electric motors, McDougall said. The flight testing aims to win
> regulatory
> >> certifications both for the electric propulsion system and for
> commercial
> >> conversions of the de Havilland aircraft. McDougall said one primary
> goal
> >> of the testing will be to show that the electric motor is "at least as
> safe
> >> or safer" than the current engine.
> >>
> >> Longer term, Ganzarski predicts that electric motors will lead to a
> >> "resurgence" in the regional airline industry for trips under 1,000
> miles
> >> with new aircraft designed for 10-25 passengers. North American carriers
> >> have struggled to fly in some of the smallest markets as most commercial
> >> aircraft flying today have at least 50 seats, too many for thinner
> routes.
> >>
> >> "By 2025, 1,000 miles is going to be easily done," Ganzarski said,
> based on
> >> the evolution of current battery technologies. "I'm not saying 5,000
> miles,
> >> but 1,000 miles, easily. I don't think that's far-fetched or a
> >> pie-in-the-sky thing." *— Justin Bachman, Bloomberg*

Re: [MBZ] OT EV airplanes in the near future

[Dimitri Seretakis via Mercedes]

The hypocrisy of electric vehicles never ceases to amaze me. If you like EVs 
that’s fine especially if you have a solar panel at your home to charge them 
but the vast majority of people just use power from the grid. This power has to 
come from somewhere.

Sent from my iPhone

> On Apr 3, 2019, at 10:03 AM, Curley McLain via Mercedes 
>  wrote:
> 
> BS
> 
> Andrew Strasfogel via Mercedes wrote on 4/3/19 8:58 AM:
>> Commercial flights on electric engines may arrive in 2021Published:
>> Wednesday, April 3, 2019
>> 
>> There's no shortage of companies working to build electric aircraft, but a
>> Canadian airline and a Seattle-area engine maker say they've found a
>> quicker route to electrification by converting a small bush plane with
>> batteries and an electric motor.
>> 
>> The first passenger flights for British Columbia-based Harbour Air Ltd.
>> would be in late 2021 under a partnership with magniX Technologies, pending
>> regulatory approvals, the companies said last week.
>> 
>> They plan to swap kerosene fuel tanks for a magniX electric motor and
>> lithium-ion battery packs on a Harbour Air de Havilland DHC-2 Beaver
>> aircraft, which seats six passengers, to begin test flights in November.
>> The propulsion system will have a range of about 100 miles.
>> 
>> The goal is an emissions-free, quieter aircraft that is certified by both
>> U.S. and Canadian aviation authorities, Greg McDougall, Harbour Air's
>> founder and chief executive officer, said in a telephone interview. The
>> suburban Vancouver-based seaplane company flies about 500,000 passengers
>> each year from British Columbia and downtown Seattle.
>> 
>> "I think electrification of all different vehicles now is going to become
>> so prevalent it's just going to be something like, 'Oh, that's something
>> going electric as well,'" McDougall said. "It's just a natural evolution."
>> 
>> Worldwide, there are some 100 different electric-aircraft programs in
>> development, according to an estimate by consulting firm Roland Berger
>> GmbH. Zunum Aero Inc., backed by Boeing Co. and JetBlue Airways Corp., aims
>> to bring a hybrid-electric commuter model to market by 2022, while Joby
>> Aviation Inc., another JetBlue-backed electric firm, is working on a
>> five-seat aircraft with a 150-mile range.
>> 
>> Batteries remain the limiting factor for electrical propulsion in aviation,
>> said Roei Ganzarski, magniX's CEO and a former Boeing executive. The
>> magni500 electric motor to be used in the Harbour Air flight testing is
>> rated for 750 horsepower and offers a 60-minute range, more than twice as
>> long as Harbour's average flight, Ganzarski said, allowing for a 30-minute
>> reserve on the batteries.
>> 
>> The converted plane will weigh the same as the conventional Beaver model
>> powered by a Pratt & Whitney PT6 engine, Ganzarski said. Over time, Harbour
>> plans to convert its 15 Beavers and 22 DHC-3 Single Otter seaplanes to
>> electric motors, McDougall said. The flight testing aims to win regulatory
>> certifications both for the electric propulsion system and for commercial
>> conversions of the de Havilland aircraft. McDougall said one primary goal
>> of the testing will be to show that the electric motor is "at least as safe
>> or safer" than the current engine.
>> 
>> Longer term, Ganzarski predicts that electric motors will lead to a
>> "resurgence" in the regional airline industry for trips under 1,000 miles
>> with new aircraft designed for 10-25 passengers. North American carriers
>> have struggled to fly in some of the smallest markets as most commercial
>> aircraft flying today have at least 50 seats, too many for thinner routes.
>> 
>> "By 2025, 1,000 miles is going to be easily done," Ganzarski said, based on
>> the evolution of current battery technologies. "I'm not saying 5,000 miles,
>> but 1,000 miles, easily. I don't think that's far-fetched or a
>> pie-in-the-sky thing." *— Justin Bachman, Bloomberg*
>> ___
>> http://www.okiebenz.com
>> 
>> To search list archives http://www.okiebenz.com/archive/
>> 
>> To Unsubscribe or change delivery options go to:
>> http://mail.okiebenz.com/mailman/listinfo/mercedes_okiebenz.com
>> 
> 
> 
> ___
> http://www.okiebenz.com
> 
> To search list archives http://www.okiebenz.com/archive/
> 
> To Unsubscribe or change delivery options go to:
> http://mail.okiebenz.com/mailman/listinfo/mercedes_okiebenz.com
> 


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Re: [MBZ] OT EV airplanes in the near future

[Meade Dillon via Mercedes]

OUCH!
-
Max
Charleston SC


On Thu, Apr 4, 2019 at 1:03 AM Scott Ritchey via Mercedes <
mercedes@okiebenz.com> wrote:

> Isn't that the same year the world ends from global warming?
>
> > -Original Message-
> > From: Mercedes [mailto:mercedes-boun...@okiebenz.com] On Behalf Of
> > Andrew Strasfogel via Mercedes
> > Sent: Wednesday, April 03, 2019 9:58 AM
> > To: Mercedes Discussion List 
> > Cc: Andrew Strasfogel 
> > Subject: [MBZ] OT EV airplanes in the near future
> >
> > Commercial flights on electric engines may arrive in 2021Published:
> > Wednesday, April 3, 2019
> >
>
>
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Re: [MBZ] OT EV airplanes in the near future

[Scott Ritchey via Mercedes]

Isn't that the same year the world ends from global warming?

> -Original Message-
> From: Mercedes [mailto:mercedes-boun...@okiebenz.com] On Behalf Of
> Andrew Strasfogel via Mercedes
> Sent: Wednesday, April 03, 2019 9:58 AM
> To: Mercedes Discussion List 
> Cc: Andrew Strasfogel 
> Subject: [MBZ] OT EV airplanes in the near future
> 
> Commercial flights on electric engines may arrive in 2021Published:
> Wednesday, April 3, 2019
> 
> There's no shortage of companies working to build electric aircraft, but a
> Canadian airline and a Seattle-area engine maker say they've found a quicker
> route to electrification by converting a small bush plane with batteries and 
> an
> electric motor.
> 
> The first passenger flights for British Columbia-based Harbour Air Ltd.
> would be in late 2021 under a partnership with magniX Technologies, pending
> regulatory approvals, the companies said last week.
> 
> They plan to swap kerosene fuel tanks for a magniX electric motor and lithium-
> ion battery packs on a Harbour Air de Havilland DHC-2 Beaver aircraft, which
> seats six passengers, to begin test flights in November.
> The propulsion system will have a range of about 100 miles.
> 
> The goal is an emissions-free, quieter aircraft that is certified by both 
> U.S. and
> Canadian aviation authorities, Greg McDougall, Harbour Air's founder and
> chief executive officer, said in a telephone interview. The suburban
> Vancouver-based seaplane company flies about 500,000 passengers each year
> from British Columbia and downtown Seattle.
> 
> "I think electrification of all different vehicles now is going to become so
> prevalent it's just going to be something like, 'Oh, that's something going
> electric as well,'" McDougall said. "It's just a natural evolution."
> 
> Worldwide, there are some 100 different electric-aircraft programs in
> development, according to an estimate by consulting firm Roland Berger
> GmbH. Zunum Aero Inc., backed by Boeing Co. and JetBlue Airways Corp., aims
> to bring a hybrid-electric commuter model to market by 2022, while Joby
> Aviation Inc., another JetBlue-backed electric firm, is working on a five-seat
> aircraft with a 150-mile range.
> 
> Batteries remain the limiting factor for electrical propulsion in aviation, 
> said
> Roei Ganzarski, magniX's CEO and a former Boeing executive. The
> magni500 electric motor to be used in the Harbour Air flight testing is rated 
> for
> 750 horsepower and offers a 60-minute range, more than twice as long as
> Harbour's average flight, Ganzarski said, allowing for a 30-minute reserve on
> the batteries.
> 
> The converted plane will weigh the same as the conventional Beaver model
> powered by a Pratt & Whitney PT6 engine, Ganzarski said. Over time, Harbour
> plans to convert its 15 Beavers and 22 DHC-3 Single Otter seaplanes to 
> electric
> motors, McDougall said. The flight testing aims to win regulatory 
> certifications
> both for the electric propulsion system and for commercial conversions of the
> de Havilland aircraft. McDougall said one primary goal of the testing will be 
> to
> show that the electric motor is "at least as safe or safer" than the current
> engine.
> 
> Longer term, Ganzarski predicts that electric motors will lead to a 
> "resurgence"
> in the regional airline industry for trips under 1,000 miles with new aircraft
> designed for 10-25 passengers. North American carriers have struggled to fly 
> in
> some of the smallest markets as most commercial aircraft flying today have at
> least 50 seats, too many for thinner routes.
> 
> "By 2025, 1,000 miles is going to be easily done," Ganzarski said, based on 
> the
> evolution of current battery technologies. "I'm not saying 5,000 miles, but
> 1,000 miles, easily. I don't think that's far-fetched or a pie-in-the-sky 
> thing."
> *— Justin Bachman, Bloomberg*
> ___
> http://www.okiebenz.com
> 
> To search list archives http://www.okiebenz.com/archive/
> 
> To Unsubscribe or change delivery options go to:
> http://mail.okiebenz.com/mailman/listinfo/mercedes_okiebenz.com



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Re: [MBZ] OT EV airplanes in the near future

[Andrew Strasfogel via Mercedes]

WHat would it take to hack it?

On Wed, Apr 3, 2019 at 8:05 PM OK Don via Mercedes 
wrote:

> Which is one reason the aviation software driven electronics are SO
> expensive - it all has to be FAA certified, including the OS and firmware.
> What should be a $500 - $1000 piece of equipment quickly becomes $10,000 to
> $15,000.
> The recent Boeing software glitch is surprising in that there have been so
> few instances of that sort of thing so far. Says something about the
> testing and review that's happened so far. Yes, the results are deadly when
> something goes wrong, but it doesn't happen often (yet).
>
> On Wed, Apr 3, 2019 at 4:22 PM Curley McLain via Mercedes <
> mercedes@okiebenz.com> wrote:
>
> > AND WHEN YOU ARE IN THE AIR, and the software decides your batteries are
> > dead, so are you, even though there is plenty of juice in the battery.
> > Ever have a laptop battery?  Or a cell phone battery with software
> > "management"?They have a habit of being squirrelly.   I'd rather
> > fly a J3 than fly in any airplane run by software.  I have seen and
> > lived with "software engineers!"   Not people I want to trust my life to.
> >
> > My apologies to the few software engineers who sleep at night and are
> > conscientious about structured design, and rigorous third party testing.
> >
> > But, the stereotype does fit the majority.
> >
> >
> >
> > Curt Raymond via Mercedes wrote on 4/3/19 3:56 PM:
> > >   I mean running out of battery isn't really any different than running
> > out of fuel. Not many good refueling options up in the sky...
> > >
> > > -Curt
> > >
> > >  On Wednesday, April 3, 2019, 2:14:55 PM EDT, G Mann via Mercedes <
> > mercedes@okiebenz.com> wrote:
> > >
> > >Batteries remain the limiting factor for electrical propulsion in
> > aviation
> > >
> > > Well that, and the problem of finding a parking place in the sky
> > while
> > > you recharge your dead [operative word here "DEAD"]
> > > batteries.
> > >
> > > I have a lot of flight hours behind the P PT6 engine. Always worked
> > well.
> > > Dependable. Survivable.
> > >
> > > On Wed, Apr 3, 2019 at 6:59 AM Andrew Strasfogel via Mercedes <
> > > mercedes@okiebenz.com> wrote:
> > >
> > >> Commercial flights on electric engines may arrive in 2021Published:
> > >> Wednesday, April 3, 2019
> > >>
> > >> There's no shortage of companies working to build electric aircraft,
> > but a
> > >> Canadian airline and a Seattle-area engine maker say they've found a
> > >> quicker route to electrification by converting a small bush plane with
> > >> batteries and an electric motor.
> > >>
> > >> The first passenger flights for British Columbia-based Harbour Air
> Ltd.
> > >> would be in late 2021 under a partnership with magniX Technologies,
> > pending
> > >> regulatory approvals, the companies said last week.
> > >>
> > >> They plan to swap kerosene fuel tanks for a magniX electric motor and
> > >> lithium-ion battery packs on a Harbour Air de Havilland DHC-2 Beaver
> > >> aircraft, which seats six passengers, to begin test flights in
> November.
> > >> The propulsion system will have a range of about 100 miles.
> > >>
> > >> The goal is an emissions-free, quieter aircraft that is certified by
> > both
> > >> U.S. and Canadian aviation authorities, Greg McDougall, Harbour Air's
> > >> founder and chief executive officer, said in a telephone interview.
> The
> > >> suburban Vancouver-based seaplane company flies about 500,000
> passengers
> > >> each year from British Columbia and downtown Seattle.
> > >>
> > >> "I think electrification of all different vehicles now is going to
> > become
> > >> so prevalent it's just going to be something like, 'Oh, that's
> something
> > >> going electric as well,'" McDougall said. "It's just a natural
> > evolution."
> > >>
> > >> Worldwide, there are some 100 different electric-aircraft programs in
> > >> development, according to an estimate by consulting firm Roland Berger
> > >> GmbH. Zunum Aero Inc., backed by Boeing Co. and JetBlue Airways Corp.,
> > aims
> > >> to bring a hybrid-electric commuter model to market by 2022, while
> Joby
> > >> Aviation Inc., another JetBlue-backed electric firm, is working on a
> > >> five-seat aircraft with a 150-mile range.
> > >>
> > >> Batteries remain the limiting factor for electrical propulsion in
> > aviation,
> > >> said Roei Ganzarski, magniX's CEO and a former Boeing executive. The
> > >> magni500 electric motor to be used in the Harbour Air flight testing
> is
> > >> rated for 750 horsepower and offers a 60-minute range, more than twice
> > as
> > >> long as Harbour's average flight, Ganzarski said, allowing for a
> > 30-minute
> > >> reserve on the batteries.
> > >>
> > >> The converted plane will weigh the same as the conventional Beaver
> model
> > >> powered by a Pratt & Whitney PT6 engine, Ganzarski said. Over time,
> > Harbour
> > >> plans to convert its 15 Beavers and 22 DHC-3 Single Otter seaplanes to
> > >> electric motors, 

Re: [MBZ] OT EV airplanes in the near future

[OK Don via Mercedes]

Which is one reason the aviation software driven electronics are SO
expensive - it all has to be FAA certified, including the OS and firmware.
What should be a $500 - $1000 piece of equipment quickly becomes $10,000 to
$15,000.
The recent Boeing software glitch is surprising in that there have been so
few instances of that sort of thing so far. Says something about the
testing and review that's happened so far. Yes, the results are deadly when
something goes wrong, but it doesn't happen often (yet).

On Wed, Apr 3, 2019 at 4:22 PM Curley McLain via Mercedes <
mercedes@okiebenz.com> wrote:

> AND WHEN YOU ARE IN THE AIR, and the software decides your batteries are
> dead, so are you, even though there is plenty of juice in the battery.
> Ever have a laptop battery?  Or a cell phone battery with software
> "management"?They have a habit of being squirrelly.   I'd rather
> fly a J3 than fly in any airplane run by software.  I have seen and
> lived with "software engineers!"   Not people I want to trust my life to.
>
> My apologies to the few software engineers who sleep at night and are
> conscientious about structured design, and rigorous third party testing.
>
> But, the stereotype does fit the majority.
>
>
>
> Curt Raymond via Mercedes wrote on 4/3/19 3:56 PM:
> >   I mean running out of battery isn't really any different than running
> out of fuel. Not many good refueling options up in the sky...
> >
> > -Curt
> >
> >  On Wednesday, April 3, 2019, 2:14:55 PM EDT, G Mann via Mercedes <
> mercedes@okiebenz.com> wrote:
> >
> >Batteries remain the limiting factor for electrical propulsion in
> aviation
> >
> > Well that, and the problem of finding a parking place in the sky
> while
> > you recharge your dead [operative word here "DEAD"]
> > batteries.
> >
> > I have a lot of flight hours behind the P PT6 engine. Always worked
> well.
> > Dependable. Survivable.
> >
> > On Wed, Apr 3, 2019 at 6:59 AM Andrew Strasfogel via Mercedes <
> > mercedes@okiebenz.com> wrote:
> >
> >> Commercial flights on electric engines may arrive in 2021Published:
> >> Wednesday, April 3, 2019
> >>
> >> There's no shortage of companies working to build electric aircraft,
> but a
> >> Canadian airline and a Seattle-area engine maker say they've found a
> >> quicker route to electrification by converting a small bush plane with
> >> batteries and an electric motor.
> >>
> >> The first passenger flights for British Columbia-based Harbour Air Ltd.
> >> would be in late 2021 under a partnership with magniX Technologies,
> pending
> >> regulatory approvals, the companies said last week.
> >>
> >> They plan to swap kerosene fuel tanks for a magniX electric motor and
> >> lithium-ion battery packs on a Harbour Air de Havilland DHC-2 Beaver
> >> aircraft, which seats six passengers, to begin test flights in November.
> >> The propulsion system will have a range of about 100 miles.
> >>
> >> The goal is an emissions-free, quieter aircraft that is certified by
> both
> >> U.S. and Canadian aviation authorities, Greg McDougall, Harbour Air's
> >> founder and chief executive officer, said in a telephone interview. The
> >> suburban Vancouver-based seaplane company flies about 500,000 passengers
> >> each year from British Columbia and downtown Seattle.
> >>
> >> "I think electrification of all different vehicles now is going to
> become
> >> so prevalent it's just going to be something like, 'Oh, that's something
> >> going electric as well,'" McDougall said. "It's just a natural
> evolution."
> >>
> >> Worldwide, there are some 100 different electric-aircraft programs in
> >> development, according to an estimate by consulting firm Roland Berger
> >> GmbH. Zunum Aero Inc., backed by Boeing Co. and JetBlue Airways Corp.,
> aims
> >> to bring a hybrid-electric commuter model to market by 2022, while Joby
> >> Aviation Inc., another JetBlue-backed electric firm, is working on a
> >> five-seat aircraft with a 150-mile range.
> >>
> >> Batteries remain the limiting factor for electrical propulsion in
> aviation,
> >> said Roei Ganzarski, magniX's CEO and a former Boeing executive. The
> >> magni500 electric motor to be used in the Harbour Air flight testing is
> >> rated for 750 horsepower and offers a 60-minute range, more than twice
> as
> >> long as Harbour's average flight, Ganzarski said, allowing for a
> 30-minute
> >> reserve on the batteries.
> >>
> >> The converted plane will weigh the same as the conventional Beaver model
> >> powered by a Pratt & Whitney PT6 engine, Ganzarski said. Over time,
> Harbour
> >> plans to convert its 15 Beavers and 22 DHC-3 Single Otter seaplanes to
> >> electric motors, McDougall said. The flight testing aims to win
> regulatory
> >> certifications both for the electric propulsion system and for
> commercial
> >> conversions of the de Havilland aircraft. McDougall said one primary
> goal
> >> of the testing will be to show that the electric motor is "at least as
> safe
> >> or safer" than 

Re: [MBZ] OT EV airplanes in the near future

[Curley McLain via Mercedes]

AND WHEN YOU ARE IN THE AIR, and the software decides your batteries are 
dead, so are you, even though there is plenty of juice in the battery.  
Ever have a laptop battery?  Or a cell phone battery with software 
"management"?    They have a habit of being squirrelly.   I'd rather 
fly a J3 than fly in any airplane run by software.  I have seen and 
lived with "software engineers!"   Not people I want to trust my life to.


My apologies to the few software engineers who sleep at night and are 
conscientious about structured design, and rigorous third party testing.


But, the stereotype does fit the majority.



Curt Raymond via Mercedes wrote on 4/3/19 3:56 PM:

  I mean running out of battery isn't really any different than running out of 
fuel. Not many good refueling options up in the sky...

-Curt

 On Wednesday, April 3, 2019, 2:14:55 PM EDT, G Mann via Mercedes 
 wrote:
  
   Batteries remain the limiting factor for electrical propulsion in aviation


Well that, and the problem of finding a parking place in the sky while
you recharge your dead [operative word here "DEAD"]
batteries.

I have a lot of flight hours behind the P PT6 engine. Always worked well.
Dependable. Survivable.

On Wed, Apr 3, 2019 at 6:59 AM Andrew Strasfogel via Mercedes <
mercedes@okiebenz.com> wrote:


Commercial flights on electric engines may arrive in 2021Published:
Wednesday, April 3, 2019

There's no shortage of companies working to build electric aircraft, but a
Canadian airline and a Seattle-area engine maker say they've found a
quicker route to electrification by converting a small bush plane with
batteries and an electric motor.

The first passenger flights for British Columbia-based Harbour Air Ltd.
would be in late 2021 under a partnership with magniX Technologies, pending
regulatory approvals, the companies said last week.

They plan to swap kerosene fuel tanks for a magniX electric motor and
lithium-ion battery packs on a Harbour Air de Havilland DHC-2 Beaver
aircraft, which seats six passengers, to begin test flights in November.
The propulsion system will have a range of about 100 miles.

The goal is an emissions-free, quieter aircraft that is certified by both
U.S. and Canadian aviation authorities, Greg McDougall, Harbour Air's
founder and chief executive officer, said in a telephone interview. The
suburban Vancouver-based seaplane company flies about 500,000 passengers
each year from British Columbia and downtown Seattle.

"I think electrification of all different vehicles now is going to become
so prevalent it's just going to be something like, 'Oh, that's something
going electric as well,'" McDougall said. "It's just a natural evolution."

Worldwide, there are some 100 different electric-aircraft programs in
development, according to an estimate by consulting firm Roland Berger
GmbH. Zunum Aero Inc., backed by Boeing Co. and JetBlue Airways Corp., aims
to bring a hybrid-electric commuter model to market by 2022, while Joby
Aviation Inc., another JetBlue-backed electric firm, is working on a
five-seat aircraft with a 150-mile range.

Batteries remain the limiting factor for electrical propulsion in aviation,
said Roei Ganzarski, magniX's CEO and a former Boeing executive. The
magni500 electric motor to be used in the Harbour Air flight testing is
rated for 750 horsepower and offers a 60-minute range, more than twice as
long as Harbour's average flight, Ganzarski said, allowing for a 30-minute
reserve on the batteries.

The converted plane will weigh the same as the conventional Beaver model
powered by a Pratt & Whitney PT6 engine, Ganzarski said. Over time, Harbour
plans to convert its 15 Beavers and 22 DHC-3 Single Otter seaplanes to
electric motors, McDougall said. The flight testing aims to win regulatory
certifications both for the electric propulsion system and for commercial
conversions of the de Havilland aircraft. McDougall said one primary goal
of the testing will be to show that the electric motor is "at least as safe
or safer" than the current engine.

Longer term, Ganzarski predicts that electric motors will lead to a
"resurgence" in the regional airline industry for trips under 1,000 miles
with new aircraft designed for 10-25 passengers. North American carriers
have struggled to fly in some of the smallest markets as most commercial
aircraft flying today have at least 50 seats, too many for thinner routes.

"By 2025, 1,000 miles is going to be easily done," Ganzarski said, based on
the evolution of current battery technologies. "I'm not saying 5,000 miles,
but 1,000 miles, easily. I don't think that's far-fetched or a
pie-in-the-sky thing." *— Justin Bachman, Bloomberg*
___
http://www.okiebenz.com

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To search 

Re: [MBZ] OT EV airplanes in the near future

[Curt Raymond via Mercedes]

 I mean running out of battery isn't really any different than running out of 
fuel. Not many good refueling options up in the sky...

-Curt

On Wednesday, April 3, 2019, 2:14:55 PM EDT, G Mann via Mercedes 
 wrote:  
 
  Batteries remain the limiting factor for electrical propulsion in aviation

Well that, and the problem of finding a parking place in the sky while
you recharge your dead [operative word here "DEAD"]
batteries.

I have a lot of flight hours behind the P PT6 engine. Always worked well.
Dependable. Survivable.

On Wed, Apr 3, 2019 at 6:59 AM Andrew Strasfogel via Mercedes <
mercedes@okiebenz.com> wrote:

> Commercial flights on electric engines may arrive in 2021Published:
> Wednesday, April 3, 2019
>
> There's no shortage of companies working to build electric aircraft, but a
> Canadian airline and a Seattle-area engine maker say they've found a
> quicker route to electrification by converting a small bush plane with
> batteries and an electric motor.
>
> The first passenger flights for British Columbia-based Harbour Air Ltd.
> would be in late 2021 under a partnership with magniX Technologies, pending
> regulatory approvals, the companies said last week.
>
> They plan to swap kerosene fuel tanks for a magniX electric motor and
> lithium-ion battery packs on a Harbour Air de Havilland DHC-2 Beaver
> aircraft, which seats six passengers, to begin test flights in November.
> The propulsion system will have a range of about 100 miles.
>
> The goal is an emissions-free, quieter aircraft that is certified by both
> U.S. and Canadian aviation authorities, Greg McDougall, Harbour Air's
> founder and chief executive officer, said in a telephone interview. The
> suburban Vancouver-based seaplane company flies about 500,000 passengers
> each year from British Columbia and downtown Seattle.
>
> "I think electrification of all different vehicles now is going to become
> so prevalent it's just going to be something like, 'Oh, that's something
> going electric as well,'" McDougall said. "It's just a natural evolution."
>
> Worldwide, there are some 100 different electric-aircraft programs in
> development, according to an estimate by consulting firm Roland Berger
> GmbH. Zunum Aero Inc., backed by Boeing Co. and JetBlue Airways Corp., aims
> to bring a hybrid-electric commuter model to market by 2022, while Joby
> Aviation Inc., another JetBlue-backed electric firm, is working on a
> five-seat aircraft with a 150-mile range.
>
> Batteries remain the limiting factor for electrical propulsion in aviation,
> said Roei Ganzarski, magniX's CEO and a former Boeing executive. The
> magni500 electric motor to be used in the Harbour Air flight testing is
> rated for 750 horsepower and offers a 60-minute range, more than twice as
> long as Harbour's average flight, Ganzarski said, allowing for a 30-minute
> reserve on the batteries.
>
> The converted plane will weigh the same as the conventional Beaver model
> powered by a Pratt & Whitney PT6 engine, Ganzarski said. Over time, Harbour
> plans to convert its 15 Beavers and 22 DHC-3 Single Otter seaplanes to
> electric motors, McDougall said. The flight testing aims to win regulatory
> certifications both for the electric propulsion system and for commercial
> conversions of the de Havilland aircraft. McDougall said one primary goal
> of the testing will be to show that the electric motor is "at least as safe
> or safer" than the current engine.
>
> Longer term, Ganzarski predicts that electric motors will lead to a
> "resurgence" in the regional airline industry for trips under 1,000 miles
> with new aircraft designed for 10-25 passengers. North American carriers
> have struggled to fly in some of the smallest markets as most commercial
> aircraft flying today have at least 50 seats, too many for thinner routes.
>
> "By 2025, 1,000 miles is going to be easily done," Ganzarski said, based on
> the evolution of current battery technologies. "I'm not saying 5,000 miles,
> but 1,000 miles, easily. I don't think that's far-fetched or a
> pie-in-the-sky thing." *— Justin Bachman, Bloomberg*
> ___
> http://www.okiebenz.com
>
> To search list archives http://www.okiebenz.com/archive/
>
> To Unsubscribe or change delivery options go to:
> http://mail.okiebenz.com/mailman/listinfo/mercedes_okiebenz.com
>
>
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Re: [MBZ] OT EV airplanes in the near future

[G Mann via Mercedes]

 Batteries remain the limiting factor for electrical propulsion in aviation

Well that, and the problem of finding a parking place in the sky while
you recharge your dead [operative word here "DEAD"]
batteries.

I have a lot of flight hours behind the P PT6 engine. Always worked well.
Dependable. Survivable.

On Wed, Apr 3, 2019 at 6:59 AM Andrew Strasfogel via Mercedes <
mercedes@okiebenz.com> wrote:

> Commercial flights on electric engines may arrive in 2021Published:
> Wednesday, April 3, 2019
>
> There's no shortage of companies working to build electric aircraft, but a
> Canadian airline and a Seattle-area engine maker say they've found a
> quicker route to electrification by converting a small bush plane with
> batteries and an electric motor.
>
> The first passenger flights for British Columbia-based Harbour Air Ltd.
> would be in late 2021 under a partnership with magniX Technologies, pending
> regulatory approvals, the companies said last week.
>
> They plan to swap kerosene fuel tanks for a magniX electric motor and
> lithium-ion battery packs on a Harbour Air de Havilland DHC-2 Beaver
> aircraft, which seats six passengers, to begin test flights in November.
> The propulsion system will have a range of about 100 miles.
>
> The goal is an emissions-free, quieter aircraft that is certified by both
> U.S. and Canadian aviation authorities, Greg McDougall, Harbour Air's
> founder and chief executive officer, said in a telephone interview. The
> suburban Vancouver-based seaplane company flies about 500,000 passengers
> each year from British Columbia and downtown Seattle.
>
> "I think electrification of all different vehicles now is going to become
> so prevalent it's just going to be something like, 'Oh, that's something
> going electric as well,'" McDougall said. "It's just a natural evolution."
>
> Worldwide, there are some 100 different electric-aircraft programs in
> development, according to an estimate by consulting firm Roland Berger
> GmbH. Zunum Aero Inc., backed by Boeing Co. and JetBlue Airways Corp., aims
> to bring a hybrid-electric commuter model to market by 2022, while Joby
> Aviation Inc., another JetBlue-backed electric firm, is working on a
> five-seat aircraft with a 150-mile range.
>
> Batteries remain the limiting factor for electrical propulsion in aviation,
> said Roei Ganzarski, magniX's CEO and a former Boeing executive. The
> magni500 electric motor to be used in the Harbour Air flight testing is
> rated for 750 horsepower and offers a 60-minute range, more than twice as
> long as Harbour's average flight, Ganzarski said, allowing for a 30-minute
> reserve on the batteries.
>
> The converted plane will weigh the same as the conventional Beaver model
> powered by a Pratt & Whitney PT6 engine, Ganzarski said. Over time, Harbour
> plans to convert its 15 Beavers and 22 DHC-3 Single Otter seaplanes to
> electric motors, McDougall said. The flight testing aims to win regulatory
> certifications both for the electric propulsion system and for commercial
> conversions of the de Havilland aircraft. McDougall said one primary goal
> of the testing will be to show that the electric motor is "at least as safe
> or safer" than the current engine.
>
> Longer term, Ganzarski predicts that electric motors will lead to a
> "resurgence" in the regional airline industry for trips under 1,000 miles
> with new aircraft designed for 10-25 passengers. North American carriers
> have struggled to fly in some of the smallest markets as most commercial
> aircraft flying today have at least 50 seats, too many for thinner routes.
>
> "By 2025, 1,000 miles is going to be easily done," Ganzarski said, based on
> the evolution of current battery technologies. "I'm not saying 5,000 miles,
> but 1,000 miles, easily. I don't think that's far-fetched or a
> pie-in-the-sky thing." *— Justin Bachman, Bloomberg*
> ___
> http://www.okiebenz.com
>
> To search list archives http://www.okiebenz.com/archive/
>
> To Unsubscribe or change delivery options go to:
> http://mail.okiebenz.com/mailman/listinfo/mercedes_okiebenz.com
>
>
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Re: [MBZ] OT EV airplanes in the near future

[Curley McLain via Mercedes]

BS

Andrew Strasfogel via Mercedes wrote on 4/3/19 8:58 AM:

Commercial flights on electric engines may arrive in 2021Published:
Wednesday, April 3, 2019

There's no shortage of companies working to build electric aircraft, but a
Canadian airline and a Seattle-area engine maker say they've found a
quicker route to electrification by converting a small bush plane with
batteries and an electric motor.

The first passenger flights for British Columbia-based Harbour Air Ltd.
would be in late 2021 under a partnership with magniX Technologies, pending
regulatory approvals, the companies said last week.

They plan to swap kerosene fuel tanks for a magniX electric motor and
lithium-ion battery packs on a Harbour Air de Havilland DHC-2 Beaver
aircraft, which seats six passengers, to begin test flights in November.
The propulsion system will have a range of about 100 miles.

The goal is an emissions-free, quieter aircraft that is certified by both
U.S. and Canadian aviation authorities, Greg McDougall, Harbour Air's
founder and chief executive officer, said in a telephone interview. The
suburban Vancouver-based seaplane company flies about 500,000 passengers
each year from British Columbia and downtown Seattle.

"I think electrification of all different vehicles now is going to become
so prevalent it's just going to be something like, 'Oh, that's something
going electric as well,'" McDougall said. "It's just a natural evolution."

Worldwide, there are some 100 different electric-aircraft programs in
development, according to an estimate by consulting firm Roland Berger
GmbH. Zunum Aero Inc., backed by Boeing Co. and JetBlue Airways Corp., aims
to bring a hybrid-electric commuter model to market by 2022, while Joby
Aviation Inc., another JetBlue-backed electric firm, is working on a
five-seat aircraft with a 150-mile range.

Batteries remain the limiting factor for electrical propulsion in aviation,
said Roei Ganzarski, magniX's CEO and a former Boeing executive. The
magni500 electric motor to be used in the Harbour Air flight testing is
rated for 750 horsepower and offers a 60-minute range, more than twice as
long as Harbour's average flight, Ganzarski said, allowing for a 30-minute
reserve on the batteries.

The converted plane will weigh the same as the conventional Beaver model
powered by a Pratt & Whitney PT6 engine, Ganzarski said. Over time, Harbour
plans to convert its 15 Beavers and 22 DHC-3 Single Otter seaplanes to
electric motors, McDougall said. The flight testing aims to win regulatory
certifications both for the electric propulsion system and for commercial
conversions of the de Havilland aircraft. McDougall said one primary goal
of the testing will be to show that the electric motor is "at least as safe
or safer" than the current engine.

Longer term, Ganzarski predicts that electric motors will lead to a
"resurgence" in the regional airline industry for trips under 1,000 miles
with new aircraft designed for 10-25 passengers. North American carriers
have struggled to fly in some of the smallest markets as most commercial
aircraft flying today have at least 50 seats, too many for thinner routes.

"By 2025, 1,000 miles is going to be easily done," Ganzarski said, based on
the evolution of current battery technologies. "I'm not saying 5,000 miles,
but 1,000 miles, easily. I don't think that's far-fetched or a
pie-in-the-sky thing." *— Justin Bachman, Bloomberg*
___
http://www.okiebenz.com

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[MBZ] OT EV airplanes in the near future

[Andrew Strasfogel via Mercedes]

Commercial flights on electric engines may arrive in 2021Published:
Wednesday, April 3, 2019

There's no shortage of companies working to build electric aircraft, but a
Canadian airline and a Seattle-area engine maker say they've found a
quicker route to electrification by converting a small bush plane with
batteries and an electric motor.

The first passenger flights for British Columbia-based Harbour Air Ltd.
would be in late 2021 under a partnership with magniX Technologies, pending
regulatory approvals, the companies said last week.

They plan to swap kerosene fuel tanks for a magniX electric motor and
lithium-ion battery packs on a Harbour Air de Havilland DHC-2 Beaver
aircraft, which seats six passengers, to begin test flights in November.
The propulsion system will have a range of about 100 miles.

The goal is an emissions-free, quieter aircraft that is certified by both
U.S. and Canadian aviation authorities, Greg McDougall, Harbour Air's
founder and chief executive officer, said in a telephone interview. The
suburban Vancouver-based seaplane company flies about 500,000 passengers
each year from British Columbia and downtown Seattle.

"I think electrification of all different vehicles now is going to become
so prevalent it's just going to be something like, 'Oh, that's something
going electric as well,'" McDougall said. "It's just a natural evolution."

Worldwide, there are some 100 different electric-aircraft programs in
development, according to an estimate by consulting firm Roland Berger
GmbH. Zunum Aero Inc., backed by Boeing Co. and JetBlue Airways Corp., aims
to bring a hybrid-electric commuter model to market by 2022, while Joby
Aviation Inc., another JetBlue-backed electric firm, is working on a
five-seat aircraft with a 150-mile range.

Batteries remain the limiting factor for electrical propulsion in aviation,
said Roei Ganzarski, magniX's CEO and a former Boeing executive. The
magni500 electric motor to be used in the Harbour Air flight testing is
rated for 750 horsepower and offers a 60-minute range, more than twice as
long as Harbour's average flight, Ganzarski said, allowing for a 30-minute
reserve on the batteries.

The converted plane will weigh the same as the conventional Beaver model
powered by a Pratt & Whitney PT6 engine, Ganzarski said. Over time, Harbour
plans to convert its 15 Beavers and 22 DHC-3 Single Otter seaplanes to
electric motors, McDougall said. The flight testing aims to win regulatory
certifications both for the electric propulsion system and for commercial
conversions of the de Havilland aircraft. McDougall said one primary goal
of the testing will be to show that the electric motor is "at least as safe
or safer" than the current engine.

Longer term, Ganzarski predicts that electric motors will lead to a
"resurgence" in the regional airline industry for trips under 1,000 miles
with new aircraft designed for 10-25 passengers. North American carriers
have struggled to fly in some of the smallest markets as most commercial
aircraft flying today have at least 50 seats, too many for thinner routes.

"By 2025, 1,000 miles is going to be easily done," Ganzarski said, based on
the evolution of current battery technologies. "I'm not saying 5,000 miles,
but 1,000 miles, easily. I don't think that's far-fetched or a
pie-in-the-sky thing." *— Justin Bachman, Bloomberg*
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Re: [MBZ] OT - EV

[larry turner]

As I near the end of the resto of my 66 MGB Roadster I keep looking at the 
engine bay and thinking about a 289 with 2-4s.  Or a Buick 3.5L Alum.V8 ---
And a modern 4 or 5 speed  also -- 

Maybe.

Larry T
;-)

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Re: [MBZ] OT - EV

[R A Bennell]

Don't know how it might work for your MGB but I hear the hot swap for old 
Toyota 4X4's is now the inline aluminum 5
cylinder out of a Chevy Colorado or H3.
Light, not too big, good power and torque and reasonably cheap and available in 
the junk yards from wrecks.

Randy

-Original Message-
From: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
[mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] Behalf Of larry turner
Sent: Thursday, August 21, 2008 3:47 PM
To: Mercedes Discussion List
Subject: Re: [MBZ] OT - EV


As I near the end of the resto of my 66 MGB Roadster I keep looking at the
engine bay and thinking about a 289 with 2-4s.  Or a Buick 3.5L Alum.V8 ---
And a modern 4 or 5 speed  also --

Maybe.

Larry T
;-)

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Re: [MBZ] OT - EV

[MG]

Size wise it will fit just fine. The only problem may be having to do a 
custom oil pan, which I don't think of as very difficult to make.

The only problem with the electric is the batteries. That's a lot of 
weight. Now if you spring for a fuel cell and run it with hydrogen. But 
that gets into a bunch of other problems.

Manfred



Date: Sat, 16 Aug 2008 21:09:29 -0500
From: OK Don [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Subject: Re: [MBZ] OT - EV


That does sound like a nice fit - if it's not too long.  However, for
a cheaper to get around in car that doesn't look like a rolling grape,
I think an electric conversion would be cool.

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Re: [MBZ] OT - EV

[Peter Frederick]

Turbojets gain horsepower with speed, since the compression ratio  
goes up considerably from ram effect.  Getting on and off the ground  
was a different story -- like the B-52 the B47 takes a LONG runway  
(also true of the B-36, another seriously underpowered aircraft).   
Low speed handing of all the contemporary aircraft was horrible, so  
bad in fact that BOAC cancelled their order for the B-707 until the  
tail was re-designed.  And you gotta slow down to drop bombs.

We built amazing numbers of aircraft back during the height of the  
cold war, and actually used single purpose aircraft, too.  No one  
wants to pay enough taxes to do that now.

And remember, the B-58 Hustler was even faster (I remember it  
breaking windows everywhere locally making supersonic runs across the  
central US), but no one ever figured out how to put a bomb in it

Peter

On Aug 16, 2008, at 6:46 PM, larry turner wrote:

 re: your comment B47 ...grossly underpowered

 My memory must be more faulty than I thought - on a recent Military  
 Channel
 program called Top 10 Bombers they went thru the various designs  
 and when
 they spoke of the B47 they said it was *very* fast - like a fighter  
 with 4
 engines so fast in fact that when F86s would come up to give chase  
 in mock
 interceptions they rarely were able to catch the B47.

 It looked like a early B52 design with the cockpit stuck on top of the
 fuseloge like a P51D cockpit but for more then 1 person. and the  
 engines
 hanging down on long pylons slightly forward -

 Checked wiki - http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/B-47_Stratojet  it says  
 it flew
 at high subsonic speeds - but I guess it could fly at that speed  
 and still
 be considered  underpowered - and it
 all subject to interpretation.
 ;-)

 Larry

 - Original Message -
 From: Peter Frederick [EMAIL PROTECTED]
 To: Mercedes Discussion List mercedes@okiebenz.com
 Sent: Saturday, August 16, 2008 3:04 PM
 Subject: Re: [MBZ] OT - EV


 Boeing had some elegant designs, still does.  Got the fuselage right
 on the 707, for sure, since it's still in production.

 However, some features, while very well executed by Boeing, are
 hardly exlusive -- thin, swept wings are a German innovation, so are
 pylon mounted engines (although not as marked as the Boeing designs),
 and the pylon is far less for service access than to get the engine
 out of the air flow on the wing -- especially at low speeds, having
 the engine suck air backwards off the wing surface really interferes
 with lift!

 Russian and European designers were rather slow to pick up on this
 fact -- most of their early designs had the engines buried in the
 wing root (DH Comet, Vampire Bombers, and TU 104s, the civilian
 version of the bomber).

 The B-47 was definitely an experimental aircraft, though, as not all
 these ideas worked out well: grossly underpowered, very short range
 due to excessive fuel consumption (straight turbojets, after all),
 nasty flying characteristics, and way too many landing accidents.

 The B-52 was much better, although the Tupolev Bear outperforms it in
 most areas.

 Peter



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Re: [MBZ] OT - EV

[Mitch Haley]

Peter Frederick wrote:
 
 And remember, the B-58 Hustler was even faster (I remember it  
 breaking windows everywhere locally making supersonic runs across the  
 central US), but no one ever figured out how to put a bomb in it

I didn't understand what you were talking about, until I saw that the bombs 
hung 
under it, like a fighter/bomber.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/B-58_Hustler

Mitch


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Re: [MBZ] OT - EV

[Curt Raymond]

I've played with the idea of a 190EV... More realistic is an old 2wd Nissan 
pickup. Nice and light, lots of space for batteries...

If I had another bay in the garage I'd be all over it.

-Curt

Date: Fri, 15 Aug 2008 21:04:34 -0500
From: OK Don [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Subject: Re: [MBZ] OT - EV
To: Mercedes Discussion List mercedes@okiebenz.com
Message-ID:
    [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1

I'm thinking that I'd like a Triumph GT6+E --- or perhaps an MGBGT as
second choice.
I also wonder how much weight you can strip out of a 124 or 201 for a
conversion. Sure hate to give up the structural protection of the MB
chassis. Even though you're tooling around on electricity in a nice
light car, doesn't mean those BIG SUVs aren't hunting for you ---

Use the EV car for around town, perhaps even commuting in nice
weather, and the Diesel car for distance, extreme weather, etc.

-- 
OK Don, KD5NRO
Norman, OK
There are three kinds of lies: lies, damn lies, and statistics.
-Benjamin Disraeli, popularized by Mark Twain
'90 300D (Rattled), '92 300D (Saber), ' '81 240D (Gramps), '97 Ply
Grand Voyager (Vincent van-go)



  
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Re: [MBZ] OT - EV

[Peter Frederick]

They may be pretty, but were reportedly a real bch to fly,  
suffering from some severe aerodymanic problems at high altitude and  
had a nasty bicycle steerable undercarriage that made landing, well,  
a puckering experience much of the time.

Most serious defect was the coffin corner were any acceleration  
would result in a high speed shock stall and a pretty much no  
recovery spin, and slowing down any would result in a low speed stall  
and the same.

Ditto for the U2 -- it was normal while banking at altitude to have  
the inside wing shaking as it neared  a low speed stall and the  
outside wing shaking in a high speed shock stall.

Not what I would cal pretty -- and they were underpowered to boot.   
Retired pretty fast in comparison to the B36 or the B52.

Peter

On Aug 15, 2008, at 10:12 PM, Rick Knoble wrote:

 BTW, that reminds me: In Oct 57, I began a coupla years+ as a B-47
 maintenance crew chief

 I have always thought that the B-47 was one of the most beautiful  
 planes to ever fly. Never seen one in person...

 Rick Knoble
 '85 300 CD
 '87 190 DT

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Re: [MBZ] OT - EV

[Wilton Strickland]

But many of the design features it pioneered led directly to the 707/KC-135
and B-52 and are still in use and are easily recognizable on most airliners
for the last fifty years and even today: thin swept wing, strut-mounted
engines for ease of maint and RR, Boeing empenage (tail).  Just last
week, I was driving near RDU as a large, modern airliner crossed in front of
me on approach; I instantly recognized its B-47 empenage.

Wilton

- Original Message -
From: Peter Frederick [EMAIL PROTECTED]
To: Mercedes Discussion List mercedes@okiebenz.com
Sent: Saturday, August 16, 2008 10:59 AM
Subject: Re: [MBZ] OT - EV


 They may be pretty, but were reportedly a real bch to fly,
 suffering from some severe aerodymanic problems at high altitude and
 had a nasty bicycle steerable undercarriage that made landing, well,
 a puckering experience much of the time.

 Most serious defect was the coffin corner were any acceleration
 would result in a high speed shock stall and a pretty much no
 recovery spin, and slowing down any would result in a low speed stall
 and the same.

 Ditto for the U2 -- it was normal while banking at altitude to have
 the inside wing shaking as it neared  a low speed stall and the
 outside wing shaking in a high speed shock stall.

 Not what I would cal pretty -- and they were underpowered to boot.
 Retired pretty fast in comparison to the B36 or the B52.

 Peter

 On Aug 15, 2008, at 10:12 PM, Rick Knoble wrote:

  BTW, that reminds me: In Oct 57, I began a coupla years+ as a B-47
  maintenance crew chief
 
  I have always thought that the B-47 was one of the most beautiful
  planes to ever fly. Never seen one in person...
 
  Rick Knoble
  '85 300 CD
  '87 190 DT
 
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Re: [MBZ] OT - EV

[Peter Frederick]

Boeing had some elegant designs, still does.  Got the fuselage right  
on the 707, for sure, since it's still in production.

However, some features, while very well executed by Boeing, are  
hardly exlusive -- thin, swept wings are a German innovation, so are  
pylon mounted engines (although not as marked as the Boeing designs),  
and the pylon is far less for service access than to get the engine  
out of the air flow on the wing -- especially at low speeds, having  
the engine suck air backwards off the wing surface really interferes  
with lift!

Russian and European designers were rather slow to pick up on this  
fact -- most of their early designs had the engines buried in the  
wing root (DH Comet, Vampire Bombers, and TU 104s, the civilian  
version of the bomber).

The B-47 was definitely an experimental aircraft, though, as not all  
these ideas worked out well: grossly underpowered, very short range  
due to excessive fuel consumption (straight turbojets, after all),  
nasty flying characteristics, and way too many landing accidents.

The B-52 was much better, although the Tupolev Bear outperforms it in  
most areas.

Peter



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Re: [MBZ] OT - EV

[Wilton Strickland]

Yes, I know.

B-47 was in many ways stopgap- 'til they could something bigger, better,
more range, etc.  'Had to use the engine that was available (J-47, same as
F-86).  'Built 1800 of 'em, though.

Wilton

- Original Message -
From: Peter Frederick [EMAIL PROTECTED]
To: Mercedes Discussion List mercedes@okiebenz.com
Sent: Saturday, August 16, 2008 3:04 PM
Subject: Re: [MBZ] OT - EV


 Boeing had some elegant designs, still does.  Got the fuselage right
 on the 707, for sure, since it's still in production.

 However, some features, while very well executed by Boeing, are
 hardly exlusive -- thin, swept wings are a German innovation, so are
 pylon mounted engines (although not as marked as the Boeing designs),
 and the pylon is far less for service access than to get the engine
 out of the air flow on the wing -- especially at low speeds, having
 the engine suck air backwards off the wing surface really interferes
 with lift!

 Russian and European designers were rather slow to pick up on this
 fact -- most of their early designs had the engines buried in the
 wing root (DH Comet, Vampire Bombers, and TU 104s, the civilian
 version of the bomber).

 The B-47 was definitely an experimental aircraft, though, as not all
 these ideas worked out well: grossly underpowered, very short range
 due to excessive fuel consumption (straight turbojets, after all),
 nasty flying characteristics, and way too many landing accidents.

 The B-52 was much better, although the Tupolev Bear outperforms it in
 most areas.

 Peter



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Re: [MBZ] OT - EV

[OK Don]

It's an evolutionary process - just like our Mercedes Benz cars ---
(obligatory MB content).

On Sat, Aug 16, 2008 at 3:04 PM, Wilton Strickland [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote:
 Yes, I know.

 B-47 was in many ways stopgap- 'til they could something bigger, better,
 more range, etc.  'Had to use the engine that was available (J-47, same as
 F-86).  'Built 1800 of 'em, though.

 Wilton

-- 
OK Don, KD5NRO
Norman, OK
There are three kinds of lies: lies, damn lies, and statistics.
-Benjamin Disraeli, popularized by Mark Twain
'90 300D (Rattled), '92 300D (Saber), ' '81 240D (Gramps), '97 Ply
Grand Voyager (Vincent van-go)

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Re: [MBZ] OT - EV

[MG]

I've always wanted an MGCGT. Now that is one fun car to drive.

Manfred



Date: Fri, 15 Aug 2008 21:04:34 -0500
From: OK Don [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Subject: Re: [MBZ] OT - EV


I'm thinking that I'd like a Triumph GT6+E --- or perhaps an MGBGT as
second choice.
I also wonder how much weight you can strip out of a 124 or 201 for a
conversion. Sure hate to give up the structural protection of the MB
chassis. Even though you're tooling around on electricity in a nice
light car, doesn't mean those BIG SUVs aren't hunting for you ---

Use the EV car for around town, perhaps even commuting in nice
weather, and the Diesel car for distance, extreme weather, etc.

-- 

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Re: [MBZ] OT - EV

[OK Don]

The power is nice, but it sure is heavy in the front!  Much better
with the Aluminum 215ci V8.

On Sat, Aug 16, 2008 at 5:01 PM, MG [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote:
 I've always wanted an MGCGT. Now that is one fun car to drive.

 Manfred

-- 
OK Don, KD5NRO
Norman, OK
There are three kinds of lies: lies, damn lies, and statistics.
-Benjamin Disraeli, popularized by Mark Twain
'90 300D (Rattled), '92 300D (Saber), ' '81 240D (Gramps), '97 Ply
Grand Voyager (Vincent van-go)

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Re: [MBZ] OT - EV

[larry turner]

re: your comment B47 ...grossly underpowered

My memory must be more faulty than I thought - on a recent Military Channel 
program called Top 10 Bombers they went thru the various designs and when 
they spoke of the B47 they said it was *very* fast - like a fighter with 4 
engines so fast in fact that when F86s would come up to give chase in mock 
interceptions they rarely were able to catch the B47.

It looked like a early B52 design with the cockpit stuck on top of the 
fuseloge like a P51D cockpit but for more then 1 person. and the engines 
hanging down on long pylons slightly forward -

Checked wiki - http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/B-47_Stratojet  it says it flew 
at high subsonic speeds - but I guess it could fly at that speed and still 
be considered  underpowered - and it
all subject to interpretation.
;-)

Larry

- Original Message - 
From: Peter Frederick [EMAIL PROTECTED]
To: Mercedes Discussion List mercedes@okiebenz.com
Sent: Saturday, August 16, 2008 3:04 PM
Subject: Re: [MBZ] OT - EV


 Boeing had some elegant designs, still does.  Got the fuselage right
 on the 707, for sure, since it's still in production.

 However, some features, while very well executed by Boeing, are
 hardly exlusive -- thin, swept wings are a German innovation, so are
 pylon mounted engines (although not as marked as the Boeing designs),
 and the pylon is far less for service access than to get the engine
 out of the air flow on the wing -- especially at low speeds, having
 the engine suck air backwards off the wing surface really interferes
 with lift!

 Russian and European designers were rather slow to pick up on this
 fact -- most of their early designs had the engines buried in the
 wing root (DH Comet, Vampire Bombers, and TU 104s, the civilian
 version of the bomber).

 The B-47 was definitely an experimental aircraft, though, as not all
 these ideas worked out well: grossly underpowered, very short range
 due to excessive fuel consumption (straight turbojets, after all),
 nasty flying characteristics, and way too many landing accidents.

 The B-52 was much better, although the Tupolev Bear outperforms it in
 most areas.

 Peter



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Re: [MBZ] OT - EV

[Wilton Strickland]

'In 600 mph class; had six J-47 engines; certainly could have used more
power; slow to accelerate; slow to decelerate once it was going (was very
streamlined - cigar-shaped).  'Used water injection to increase thrust on
takeoff.  'Sometimes used 28 to 30 JATO (rocket) bottles on takeoff, too.
Official max gross weight of 225 klbs., but I've seen it at 235 klbs.
Strategic Air Command (SAC) had 1800 of 'em; my base (Lincoln, NE) had 100
of 'em.  They served the country very well for about 15 years.  RAAF had
about 7 of 'em, I think.

B-47E's performed many a LABS maneuver - a bomb run performed by releasing
bomb in the climbing vertical phase just before going over the top of a
loop - yes, a loop, an inside loop.   The maneuver waste used to toss the
nuclear weapon to the target; bomb would continued upward some before
falling back toward target.  Meanwhile the aircraft went over the top of the
loop, and, as it started down the other side, it would roll upright
accelerating and descending to get the Hell out of Dodge.  Advantages of
the maneuver: approach target very low to avoid RADAR, pull up and release
to get bomb above its low altitude release limit and improve (increase)
escape time for the aircraft and crew - escape the blast shock wave, that
is.

All B-52's through G models (8 J-57 engines) could have used more power,
too; 'finally had a very responsive airplane and power to spare in the H
model (8 TF-33 engines); had to set thrust gate on H model throttle
quadrant to keep from over-powering - accelerating too fast could pitch
nose up before getting trim adjusted.

Wilton

- Original Message -
From: larry turner [EMAIL PROTECTED]
To: Mercedes Discussion List mercedes@okiebenz.com
Sent: Saturday, August 16, 2008 7:46 PM
Subject: Re: [MBZ] OT - EV


 re: your comment B47 ...grossly underpowered

 My memory must be more faulty than I thought - on a recent Military
Channel
 program called Top 10 Bombers they went thru the various designs and
when
 they spoke of the B47 they said it was *very* fast - like a fighter with 4
 engines so fast in fact that when F86s would come up to give chase in mock
 interceptions they rarely were able to catch the B47.

 It looked like a early B52 design with the cockpit stuck on top of the
 fuseloge like a P51D cockpit but for more then 1 person. and the engines
 hanging down on long pylons slightly forward -

 Checked wiki - http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/B-47_Stratojet  it says it
flew
 at high subsonic speeds - but I guess it could fly at that speed and still
 be considered  underpowered - and it
 all subject to interpretation.
 ;-)

 Larry

 - Original Message -
 From: Peter Frederick [EMAIL PROTECTED]
 To: Mercedes Discussion List mercedes@okiebenz.com
 Sent: Saturday, August 16, 2008 3:04 PM
 Subject: Re: [MBZ] OT - EV


  Boeing had some elegant designs, still does.  Got the fuselage right
  on the 707, for sure, since it's still in production.
 
  However, some features, while very well executed by Boeing, are
  hardly exlusive -- thin, swept wings are a German innovation, so are
  pylon mounted engines (although not as marked as the Boeing designs),
  and the pylon is far less for service access than to get the engine
  out of the air flow on the wing -- especially at low speeds, having
  the engine suck air backwards off the wing surface really interferes
  with lift!
 
  Russian and European designers were rather slow to pick up on this
  fact -- most of their early designs had the engines buried in the
  wing root (DH Comet, Vampire Bombers, and TU 104s, the civilian
  version of the bomber).
 
  The B-47 was definitely an experimental aircraft, though, as not all
  these ideas worked out well: grossly underpowered, very short range
  due to excessive fuel consumption (straight turbojets, after all),
  nasty flying characteristics, and way too many landing accidents.
 
  The B-52 was much better, although the Tupolev Bear outperforms it in
  most areas.
 
  Peter
 
 
 
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Re: [MBZ] OT - EV

[MG]

That's true it was a bit heavy on the front. I would like to go with the 
inline Vortec 4200 aluminum GM engine. It would also do kind of nice in 
an E-type. Lots lighter than the old boat anchor and it has fuel 
injection and all. Real light and plenty of power.

Manfred



Date: Sat, 16 Aug 2008 17:22:36 -0500
From: OK Don [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Subject: Re: [MBZ] OT - EV


The power is nice, but it sure is heavy in the front!  Much better
with the Aluminum 215ci V8.

On Sat, Aug 16, 2008 at 5:01 PM, MG [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote:
  I've always wanted an MGCGT. Now that is one fun car to drive.
 

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Re: [MBZ] OT - EV

[OK Don]

That does sound like a nice fit - if it's not too long.  However, for
a cheaper to get around in car that doesn't look like a rolling grape,
I think an electric conversion would be cool.

On Sat, Aug 16, 2008 at 9:01 PM, MG [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote:
 That's true it was a bit heavy on the front. I would like to go with the
 inline Vortec 4200 aluminum GM engine. It would also do kind of nice in
 an E-type. Lots lighter than the old boat anchor and it has fuel
 injection and all. Real light and plenty of power.

 Manfred

-- 
OK Don, KD5NRO
Norman, OK
There are three kinds of lies: lies, damn lies, and statistics.
-Benjamin Disraeli, popularized by Mark Twain
'90 300D (Rattled), '92 300D (Saber), ' '81 240D (Gramps), '97 Ply
Grand Voyager (Vincent van-go)

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Re: [MBZ] OT - EV

[Mitch Haley]

Wilton Strickland wrote:
 Meanwhile the aircraft went over the top of the
 loop, and, as it started down the other side, it would roll upright
 accelerating and descending to get the Hell out of Dodge. 

Max Immelmann would be proud.

Mitch.

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Re: [MBZ] OT - EV

[OK Don]

I don't think Max waited that long before rolling over - but it's been
a while since I did that kind of thing.

On Sat, Aug 16, 2008 at 9:32 PM, Mitch Haley [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote:
 Wilton Strickland wrote:
 Meanwhile the aircraft went over the top of the
 loop, and, as it started down the other side, it would roll upright
 accelerating and descending to get the Hell out of Dodge.

 Max Immelmann would be proud.

 Mitch.

-- 
OK Don, KD5NRO
Norman, OK
There are three kinds of lies: lies, damn lies, and statistics.
-Benjamin Disraeli, popularized by Mark Twain
'90 300D (Rattled), '92 300D (Saber), ' '81 240D (Gramps), '97 Ply
Grand Voyager (Vincent van-go)

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Re: [MBZ] OT - EV

[Hendrik Fay]

Mercedes did make a prototype 190EV back in the mid 80s but never went 
further than experimental, probably because the oil companies thought an 
electric car is not a good idea.
You can just imagine the conversation at the club.

Hendrik
who thinks the problem with EV is the mod cons

Curt Raymond wrote:
 I've played with the idea of a 190EV... More realistic is an old 2wd Nissan 
 pickup. Nice and light, lots of space for batteries...

 If I had another bay in the garage I'd be all over it.

 -Curt

 Date: Fri, 15 Aug 2008 21:04:34 -0500
 From: OK Don [EMAIL PROTECTED]
 Subject: Re: [MBZ] OT - EV
 To: Mercedes Discussion List mercedes@okiebenz.com
 Message-ID:
 [EMAIL PROTECTED]
 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1

 I'm thinking that I'd like a Triumph GT6+E --- or perhaps an MGBGT as
 second choice.
 I also wonder how much weight you can strip out of a 124 or 201 for a
 conversion. Sure hate to give up the structural protection of the MB
 chassis. Even though you're tooling around on electricity in a nice
 light car, doesn't mean those BIG SUVs aren't hunting for you ---

 Use the EV car for around town, perhaps even commuting in nice
 weather, and the Diesel car for distance, extreme weather, etc.

   

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