It would be interesting to visit Rockwell with Jones Beene. I imagine the
conversation would go something like this:
Researcher showing equipment: Here is the main unit. The resolution is 0.1
parts per billion.
Beene: You mean million.
Researcher: No, billion. Now over here we have the
From: Jed Rothwell
It would be interesting to visit Rockwell with Jones Beene. I imagine the
conversation would go something like this:
Researcher showing equipment: Here is the main unit. The resolution is 0.1
parts per billion.
Beene: You mean million.
Researcher: No, billion.
interesting debate...
Mizuno support of experimental results for some, implies support of his
theory, thus critic of the experimental results of those whose result
challenge Mizuno theory...
I think that premature focus on theory is THE problem.
I have re read the history of cold fusion,
Veeder hveeder...@gmail.com wrote:
I read it and was impressed until I became confused by the statistical
analysis discussion on page eight.
*For our 33 experiments involving heat and helium measurements, excess
heat was measuredin 21 cases and excess helium was observed in 18
Jones Beene jone...@pacbell.net wrote:
Parts per million is the limit of acceptable levels for accuracy. Sure
there are few labs in the world that can possibly do better, but we are
talking about cold fusion researchers with self-made gadgets and most of
this work was done a decade ago.
I
My sense is that the transmutation process is dependent on the geometry of
the surface that the LENR reaction is produced by. There are many types of
such surface geometries that are capable of producing the LENR effect and
therefore there are many types of transmutation mechanisms possible among
From: Jed Rothwell
* No, we are not talking about self-made gadgets. We are talking about three
of the world's best facilities for measuring helium: U. Texas, Rockwell
International, and the U.S. Bureau of Mines. That was stated by Miles, by me
and by others many times. Has Jones Beene
Jones Beene jone...@pacbell.net wrote:
In many case we are talking about self-made gadgets to enrich the helium.
No, in every case I know of, enrichment was done by the mass spectroscopy
experts themselves, with in house equipment. There are no self-made gadgets
involved. Miles did nothing to
I wrote:
In any case, their cells produced about a thousand times more power than
Miles . . .
Correction: ~200 to ~500 times more power.
I have no idea whether these cells were gas tight enough to collect helium.
Most cells are not.
- Jed
From: Jed Rothwell
[Snip] evasive double talk
We should ask – why not – or why did Roulette/Pons – who had
access to MS not test at all?
* How do you know they did not test? I have no idea whether they did
or not.
Then if you had the
I appreciate respect Mizuno myself, and perhaps his new experiment will
reveal something of real value moving forward, but to pin all your hopes on
a single, non-replicated blown-out-of-proportion experiment, while at the
same time dismissing over a dozen time-tested studies of the heat/helium
This has got to be a joke, right?
Foks sez: believers in Heat-helium are “Faith- based” LOL… that makes my day.
In fact, since there are no gammas, there is no valid scientific conclusion
other than that the fusion of deuterium to helium cannot be responsible for
gain. But – if you are
Jones -- You are so hell-bent on winning an argument you can't perceive
your own childishness. I'm probably not even half your age and I know how
to act like more of an adult than you. Drop the adolescent LOL and
winning-is-everything attitude, will you please?
On Fri, Sep 19, 2014 at 1:23 PM,
Jones Beene jone...@pacbell.net wrote:
From: Jed Rothwell
[Snip] evasive double talk
Don't be obnoxious. I never evade anything.
We should ask – why not – or why did Roulette/Pons – who
had
access to MS not test at all?
I am not in
And by the way if I was a true believer in any theory (like how you shill
for Mill's work), I wouldn't go out of my way to interview people in the
field with widely differing opinions on the matter at hand (i.e. Ahern vs.
Storms). I have no pet theory, I make no firm conclusions, I have only
From: Foks0904
Jones -- You are so hell-bent on winning an argument you can't perceive your
own childishness.
And this kind of talk from you to me – impugning the motives of anyone who does
not follow the anti-science rhetoric which your are dishing out here - is that
indicative of
From: Foks0904
And by the way if I was a true believer in any theory (like how you shill for
Mill's work)
You apparently do not read the posting here, or do not understand what you
read. I have been one of Mills most vocal critics.
Please find somewhere else to troll.
Jones
Foks continues to performs a hatchet job on us one at a time in our turn.
From: Foks0904 on me - Even though we are all entitled to our own reality
tunnels, and diversity is of course important to any evolving ecology,
everyone has to be more flexible/adaptive in their thinking processes, and
This whole thread began because you misunderstood something you read (taken
posted form from a private forum you're not even a part of) and blew it
out of proportion. You're the one with a chip on your shoulder -- that's
not my problem. Spare me the self-righteous indignation. Name call and be
Are you serious? What a joke. Get a thicker skin Axil.
On Fri, Sep 19, 2014 at 2:40 PM, Axil Axil janap...@gmail.com wrote:
Foks continues to performs a hatchet job on us one at a time in our turn.
From: Foks0904 on me - Even though we are all entitled to our own
reality tunnels, and
If you go out of your way to create an echo chamber by chasing off people
who disagree with you, you're well on your way to achieving that -- a forum
equivalent of an intellectual mono-culture. Shame on you, Axil, seriously.
I disagree with some of you, occasionally engage in snarky
Axil, He says he is young, which is obvious … so we could cut him some slack on
immaturity – if … that is, he were not trying to lecture others as if he had a
unique skill set for this field … or … if he had made any contribution here.
I looked back through the archives and cannot find a
Hear yourself foks:
Jones -- You are so hell-bent on winning an argument you can't perceive
your own childishness. I'm probably not even half your age and I know how
to act like more of an adult than you. Drop the adolescent LOL and
winning-is-everything attitude, will you please?
Please raise
Axil Axil janap...@gmail.com wrote:
Where are the experimentally based technical points that will convince
Jones to change his opinions?
The papers by Miles might convince him, but evidently he has not read them.
I say that because he keeps making assertions that contradict those papers.
A
I did not fully describe Beene's argument. There are three postulates, not
two:
1. The IMRA laboratory may have had a good opportunity to study helium, or
they may not have.
2. They may have done such a study, or they may not have.
3. Assuming 1 and 2 are true, the study might be positive, or
This is absurd spin by Rothwell, but I will waste the time with another
rebuttal, so that the archive, at least, will include some bit of sanity on
this subject.
Of course we already know that JR made the thousand-fold mistake in what he
reported as the level of ambient helium, so his judgment
Jones Beene jone...@pacbell.net wrote:
1. The IMRA laboratory may have had a good opportunity to
study helium, or they may not have.
No one, including Rothwell thinks that they “may not have had” an excellent
opportunity, along with proper MS available. So, of course they
From: Jed Rothwell
Every fact you have pointed to so far has been wrong. Flat out wrong.
Really. Here are the most important facts in this discussion, and none of them
is wrong.
1)no gamma radiation is detected
2)there is not the least shred of proof in physics of D+D
Jones Beene jone...@pacbell.net wrote:
1)no gamma radiation is detected
True.
2)there is not the least shred of proof in physics of D+D fusion
without gammas
Oh yes there is. See: M. Miles and others doing cold fusion. That's proof.
Pretty good experimental proof. Your assertion
I have to admit, despite _wanting_ an _easier_ way to adopt as working
hypothesis Mills's theory -- which I'm convinced is quite plausible -- than
Robin's extrapolations beyond where Mills himself will go with his
theory; Jones
Beene is no help in fulfilling my desire to avoid delving into Robin's
On Fri, Sep 19, 2014 at 9:57 AM, Foks0904 . foks0...@gmail.com wrote:
Jones is now just trying to save face (pointlessly so) ...
This would be quite difficult to do at this point.
Eric
From Dr. Melvin Miles:
/Jones Beene is simply wrong about the accuracy of helium-4
measurements. The laboratories that I used for my samples specialized
in highly accurate helium measurements. The DOI lab in Texas could
easily measure 1 ppb. The Rockwell lab with Dr.Brian Oliver was even
Well, Ruby I hope Miles is correct (from the standpoint of strong LENR
advocacy on my part) and I thank you for following up with the proper
question. All of us here should only be concerned with the science - not
promoting one theory or another. Most of us do want to promote a proper
Jones Beene jone...@pacbell.net wrote:
But again, all it takes is an experiment where ppm of helium is being
made, and we should have that report in a matter of months.
1. McKubre did an experiment where ppm of helium was produced.
2. When you can measure ppb levels with confidence at a
Ruby r...@hush.com wrote:
From Dr. Melvin Miles:
*Jones Beene is simply wrong about the accuracy of helium-4
measurements. The laboratories that I used for my samples specialized in
highly accurate helium measurements. The DOI lab in Texas could easily
measure 1 ppb. The Rockwell lab
On 9/18/14, 6:24 AM, Jones Beene wrote:
Well, Ruby I hope Miles is correct (from the standpoint of strong LENR
advocacy on my part) and I thank you for following up with the proper
question. All of us here should only be concerned with the science --
not promoting one theory or another. Most
On Wed, Sep 17, 2014 at 10:45 PM, Jed Rothwell jedrothw...@gmail.com
wrote:
Miles knew the history of the samples, but he did not tell the groups
operating the mass spectrometers.
Miles described this in his papers, and I described it in my review:
Regarding exploding deuterium loaded wires ...
On Tue, Sep 16, 2014 at 8:08 PM, Jones Beene jone...@pacbell.net wrote:
But you do admit, one would hope, that deuterium loaded wires, which is a
condensed matter environment, following a high amp pulse from a 2000v cap –
and no plasma anywhere
Bob--
Your logic about cap-discharge at 2000 volts seems correct to me. However, it
does not explain the SPAWAR experience where hot alphas were seen in a regular
Pd electrode unless the local electric field at defects in the Pd electrode
(sharp cracks etc) produced hot D particles at the
Here is a paper by Miles describing some of the details of the instruments
such as the signal to noise ratios, detection limits, atmospheric helium,
etc.:
http://lenr-canr.org/acrobat/MilesMcorrelatio.pdf
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Z-pinch
Exploding wires are used in z pinch fusion, A external magnetic field is
used to aid the formation of the plasma ball.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Dense_plasma_focus
Focused fusion also uses a magnetic field from an external magnet to twist
the plasmoid
On 9/16/14, 8:02 AM, Jones Beene wrote:
Wow. This is a stunner.
Jones, These heat-helium correlations do not come from only one person.
To deny the correlation of heat-helium is essentially saying that not
only is Melvin Miles incompetent, but so are the researchers from the
numerous (16?)
From: Ruby
Wow. This is a stunner.
* Jones, These heat-helium correlations do not come from only one person.
To deny the correlation of heat-helium is essentially saying that not only
is Melvin Miles incompetent, but so are the researchers from the numerous
(16?) other studies
Jones needs to tone down the rhetoric, but I will mention another
possibility which hopefully will not be taken the wrong way.
It is well known fact that experimenters can be honest and competent but
because of their bias they can still unwittingly influence the outcome of
an experiment which is
H Veeder hveeder...@gmail.com wrote:
It is well known fact that experimenters can be honest and competent but
because of their bias they can still unwittingly influence the outcome of
an experiment which is why blind and double blind experiments are sometimes
necessary.
This was a blind
H Veeder hveeder...@gmail.com wrote:
Perhaps more care was taken to keep atmospheric gases out during the
control runs or less care was taken to keep atmospheric gases out during
the active run.
That is impossible. In most cases there was no way to know ahead of time
what was a control run,
The standard procedure to deal with this kind of unconscious bias is
multiple independent replications.
On Wed, Sep 17, 2014 at 9:23 PM, H Veeder hveeder...@gmail.com wrote:
Jones needs to tone down the rhetoric, but I will mention another
possibility which hopefully will not be taken the
ok, I did not know he did not know before hand which cell was going to be
active.
Harry
On Wed, Sep 17, 2014 at 10:51 PM, Jed Rothwell jedrothw...@gmail.com
wrote:
H Veeder hveeder...@gmail.com wrote:
Perhaps more care was taken to keep atmospheric gases out during the
control runs or less
On Wed, Sep 17, 2014 at 10:45 PM, Jed Rothwell jedrothw...@gmail.com
wrote:
H Veeder hveeder...@gmail.com wrote:
It is well known fact that experimenters can be honest and competent but
because of their bias they can still unwittingly influence the outcome of
an experiment which is why
On Wed, Sep 17, 2014 at 9:41 PM, Jones Beene jone...@pacbell.net wrote:
However, admittedly, if (big if) Mizuno does indeed come out with
measurements in November which support the heat-helium conclusion – then
you will see me and maybe even Krivit instantly change horses – since
Mizuno is
On Wed, Sep 17, 2014 at 2:16 PM, Ruby r...@hush.com wrote:
... These heat-helium correlations do not come from only one person. To
deny the correlation of heat-helium is essentially saying that not only is
Melvin Miles incompetent, but so are the researchers from the numerous
(16?) other
Wow. This is a stunner.
I'm not on CMNS because of their policy of insularity - so I cannot verify
that the following message actually appeared, but it seems to be further
devastation to the widely held notion that helium and excess heat can be
well-correlated in LENR, even though it comes from
Jones -- Posting private correspondences is a quasi-childish thing to do,
something Krivit specializes in. You're not blowing the lid off some
amazing story. I'm pretty sure that's also how Krivit rationalized every
distasteful decision he's made.
On Tue, Sep 16, 2014 at 11:02 AM, Jones Beene
Jones Beene jone...@pacbell.net wrote:
It is almost unbelievable that a few regular posters on CMNS would say
that Miles work is proof of a good correlation, when it actually appears to
show that all - 100% - of the helium measured could easily have diffused
into system from the outside.
Foks0904 . foks0...@gmail.com wrote:
Jones -- Posting private correspondences is a quasi-childish thing to do,
something Krivit specializes in. You're not blowing the lid off some
amazing story.
Well I do not see anything wrong with posting that. It does not seem
private to me. But as I said,
To correct some voice input errors:
Helium alone cannot leak IN without argon.
I mean the atmospheric He to Ar ratio is fixed.
I gave him links to my paper and to my sources -- WHICH say the same thing
. . .
I did not make this stiff up, as Dave Barry used to say.
- Jed
This is of no small interest to me as I'm currently holding off on using up
one of my more influential contacts on Mills/BLP pending the resolution, in
my mind, of the He4/heat correlation issue relative to Mills. The only
person I know of who has put forth an explanation for how hydrino
The second person could be Randy Mills himself- see what he has told on my
blog.
Peter
On Tue, Sep 16, 2014 at 8:00 PM, James Bowery jabow...@gmail.com wrote:
This is of no small interest to me as I'm currently holding off on using
up one of my more influential contacts on Mills/BLP pending
Peter Gluck peter.gl...@gmail.com wrote:
The second person could be Randy Mills himself- see what he has told on my
blog.
What second person? What do you mean?
- Jed
As I recall, SPAWARS (Naval Research) per Mosier-Boss etal., had good
justification for He ash in the Pd-D system. They were close to George Miley I
believe.
The following links are pertinent to SPAWAR effort:
http://coldfusioninformation.com/organisations/spawar/
Jed
I answered to James, his hope is in Robin van Spaandonk.
to link hydrinos with He.
On Tue, Sep 16, 2014 at 8:43 PM, Jed Rothwell jedrothw...@gmail.com wrote:
Peter Gluck peter.gl...@gmail.com wrote:
The second person could be Randy Mills himself- see what he has told on my
blog.
What
From: Jed Rothwell
Helium alone cannot leak IN without argon.
Complete nonsense !
Helium has an enormous diffusion rate through Pyrex glass. Argon has almost
none. Check the MIT site if you want a source.
Even if Argon could diffuse in, which it cannot – Grahams Law would mean the
According to Google, there is only one hit for helium and mills on the
egoout blog:
http://egooutpeters.blogspot.com/2013_11_01_archive.html
and it does not contain any such theory.
On Tue, Sep 16, 2014 at 12:51 PM, Peter Gluck peter.gl...@gmail.com wrote:
Jed
I answered to James, his hope
the absence of theory means Randy thinks NO connection.
To be discussed with him.
Peter
On Tue, Sep 16, 2014 at 9:07 PM, James Bowery jabow...@gmail.com wrote:
According to Google, there is only one hit for helium and mills on the
egoout blog:
You are confusing me. First you say that Mills, on your blog, was a person
other than Robin van Spaandonk to offer a theory explaining He ash in
amounts that match excess heat that is consistent with hydrino production
and then you _appear_ (poor grammar so hard tell) to say that Mills has no
No sorry I have only told that you can ask Mills. Not more not less. But he
is against any connection of hydrinos with CF, LENR. Sorry for the
confusion.
Peter
On Tue, Sep 16, 2014 at 9:15 PM, James Bowery jabow...@gmail.com wrote:
You are confusing me. First you say that Mills, on your blog,
Jones Beene jone...@pacbell.net wrote:
Helium alone cannot leak IN without argon.
Complete nonsense !
Helium has an enormous diffusion rate through Pyrex glass. Argon has
almost none. Check the MIT site if you want a source.
First, he was not using Pyrex glass; he used steel
I will save anyone the trouble of asking Mills.
He absolutely and unequivocally says that there is no helium formation as a
result of the hydrino reaction.
Robin and others have tried to plow a pathway between LENR and BLP with the
suggestion that hydrinos could facilitate the fusion
I am excruciatingly aware that Mills denies not only that there is no
connection between hydrinos and He ash in amounts consistent with excess
heat -- but that he denies that such He ash even exists. In the absence of
another explanatory theory, such as Robin van Spaandonk's, either one of
those
On Tue, Sep 16, 2014 at 1:29 PM, Jones Beene jone...@pacbell.net wrote:
The bottom line - even if f/H could facilitate fusion
Notation question:
Does f/H mean fractional Rydberg states of hydrogen?
From: Jed Rothwell
*Helium alone cannot leak IN without argon.
Complete nonsense !
Helium has an enormous diffusion rate through Pyrex glass.
Argon has almost none. Check the MIT site if you want a source.
* First, he
Jones Beene jone...@pacbell.net wrote:
For the collection flasks he could have used anything. It was too late.
Helium diffuses into the electrolysis cell itself during the operation.
Yes, some does come in. This amount can be measured in a null experiment.
It is the background amount. As it
Jones--
I think you are correct about the differences between He and Argon diffusion
rates. I think the diameter of the diffusing entity in question is also
important. The bigger the diameter the slower the diffusion, if it is
possible at all in any given medium. The temperature of the
I’m sorry but that is not what Miles seems to be saying now. You are putting
words in his mouth. In any event, the rate measured is incredibly low – well
below any confidence level and well below atmospheric levels - so it is of
negligible value. It is milliwatt level, in a world begging for
Jones, You are making specious arguments that are below the quality level
of your posts.
Yes, you are correct and Jed is correct in the arguments that the diffusion
of He and Argon in Miles' experiments are essentially constants - note the
(s)! When the amount on the inside and outside are far
Jones Beene jone...@pacbell.net wrote:
I’m sorry but that is not what Miles seems to be saying now.
That's what he told me. I consulted with him at length when I wrote the
paper about him. He I went over it many times.
You are putting words in his mouth. In any event, the rate measured is
From: Bob Higgins
* Your attempt to dismiss the Claytor tritium results as being high voltage
is again specious. The voltages being used are not capable of producing hot
fusion.
His voltage is capable, and the is no “dismissal,” and the “high” is relative
to electrolysis. Guess
In reply to Peter Gluck's message of Tue, 16 Sep 2014 21:19:00 +0300:
Hi,
[snip]
No sorry I have only told that you can ask Mills. Not more not less. But he
is against any connection of hydrinos with CF, LENR. Sorry for the
confusion.
Peter
Randy has talked to hot fusioneers, and as a
mix...@bigpond.com wrote:
Randy has talked to hot fusioneers, and as a consequence believes that
fusion is
very dangerous. Consequently he wants nothing to do with it.
This is a peculiar attitude. Widespread, but peculiar. His reaction might
be cold fusion. It is what it is. It makes no
Jones--
I remember that the SPAWAR experiments indicated He formed with the correct
24... Mev energy of a D-D fusion reaction. The evidence was in the CR-39
detectors that they used. They also saw tritium and its characteristic path in
the Cr-39 detectors. Check out the report of SPAWAR
That is precisely my point Bob. They DID SEE TRITIUM so they did get fusion.
When DD fuses to He, on occasion you should see the strong photon even if there
is another mechanism which can thermalize the energy most of the time in ways
which are not fatal to the experimenter. And you should
Jones,
Claytor's results are not hot fusion because: 1) it only works with certain
wire cathodes - the cathode condensed matter must be present and in the
right form or there will be no tritium, and 2) the neutron rate he produces
is very low (4E-9 of tritium) - not characteristic of hot fusion.
Things may be more complicated than are imaged here. The helium ash produce
might not be the end product of the completed reaction. The helium might be
a transient step in a long string of ascending fusion reactions that start
with the proton/proton(PP) initial reaction and end with boron or
In reply to James Bowery's message of Tue, 16 Sep 2014 12:00:58 -0500:
Hi James,
I wouldn't hunt too hard if I were you. I haven't said much more on this
particular issue in the past than I said recently.
I would be happy to answer any particular questions you might have.
[snip]
This is of no
In reply to Jed Rothwell's message of Tue, 16 Sep 2014 18:16:38 -0400:
Hi,
[snip]
mix...@bigpond.com wrote:
Randy has talked to hot fusioneers, and as a consequence believes that
fusion is
very dangerous. Consequently he wants nothing to do with it.
This is a peculiar attitude. Widespread,
From: Bob Higgins
* Claytor's results are not hot fusion because: 1) it only works with
certain wire cathodes - the cathode condensed matter must be present and in
the right form or there will be no tritium, and 2) the neutron rate he
produces is very low (4E-9 of tritium)
On Tue, Sep 16, 2014 at 11:49 AM, Jed Rothwell jedrothw...@gmail.com
wrote:
In other words excess heat produces significantly more than the background
from diffusion, but much less than the atmospheric background.
For sure. It is not the absolute magnitude of the signal that matters (in
this
On Tue, Sep 16, 2014 at 3:16 PM, Jed Rothwell jedrothw...@gmail.com wrote:
Has he looked for helium? That would be evidence for cold fusion. If he has
not detected any because he refused to look, that proves nothing.
I'm pretty sure Mills isn't using a PdD system. That is the only system of
On Tue, Sep 16, 2014 at 4:31 PM, Bob Cook frobertc...@hotmail.com wrote:
I remember that the SPAWAR experiments indicated He formed with the
correct 24... Mev energy of a D-D fusion reaction.
In the SPAWAR experiments I recall ~ 10-15 MeV alphas -- I might have
missed a CR-39 paper that says
On Tue, Sep 16, 2014 at 5:57 PM, Bob Higgins rj.bob.higg...@gmail.com
wrote:
I stand by my remarks about the inability of his 1500V-2500V supply to be
able to accelerate electrons or protons to 1.5-2.5 keV due to high pressure
scattering collisions in his high density plasma.
An analogy I use
Jones-
By hot fusion I mean fusion that occurs because a hot incoming particle is
able to overcome the coulomb barrier and fuse to the target. Production
particles from fusion coming out at high energy do not constitute hot fusion
in my book.
Bob
- Original Message -
From: Jones
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