Re: [WISPA] Canopy Site, off-power-grid

[wispa]

I'll be happy to design it for ya, Rick.

I'll give you a call on Monday. 


On Mon, 06 Mar 2006 02:01:17 -0500, Rick Smith wrote
> Need to install a short tower as a relay on a mountaintop, no power 
> within 3/4 mile.
> 
> Anyone done battery / generator sites with one Canopy AP, one Canopy 
> SM and a router, like Mikrotik in between ?
> 
> This is in NJ, not too good an environment for solar I imagine,
>  although we'll be on a real high hill top (1250' elev) for this area...
> 
> R
> 
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Re: [WISPA] How is this for a wireless discription?

[Scott Reed]

Especially since some of the links go to outside vendors, not an explanation.  I looked at the site and expected to find out what each piece was.  Instead I got a Trango add. 

Scott Reed 


Owner 


NewWays 


Wireless Networking 


Network Design, Installation and Administration 


www.nwwnet.net 




-- Original Message 
---

From: JohnnyO <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> 


To: [EMAIL PROTECTED], WISPA General List  


Sent: Sun, 05 Mar 2006 22:45:30 -0600 


Subject: Re: [WISPA] How is this for a wireless discription? 



> 

H - personally I don't like it but the end users may love it. Looks like 
someone spent a great deal of time on this and I commend them for that. 
Unfortunately - here the people would look at that picture and get confused and 
baffled and then we'd end up with double the questions during our explanation ! 

> 
> 

JohnnyO
> 
> 

On Sun, 2006-03-05 at 17:35 -0600, Victoria 
wrote:




http://www.stlbroadband.com/How_It_Works.htm

Victoria 
Proffer
www.StLouisBroadBand.com
314-974-5600




--- End of Original Message 
---





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Re: [WISPA] How is this for a wireless discription?

[Scott Reed]

Especially since some of the links go to outside vendors, not an explanation.  I looked at the site and expected to find out what each piece was.  Instead I got a Trango add. 

Scott Reed 


Owner 


NewWays 


Wireless Networking 


Network Design, Installation and Administration 


www.nwwnet.net 




-- Original Message 
---

From: JohnnyO <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> 


To: [EMAIL PROTECTED], WISPA General List  


Sent: Sun, 05 Mar 2006 22:45:30 -0600 


Subject: Re: [WISPA] How is this for a wireless discription? 



> 

H - personally I don't like it but the end users may love it. Looks like 
someone spent a great deal of time on this and I commend them for that. 
Unfortunately - here the people would look at that picture and get confused and 
baffled and then we'd end up with double the questions during our explanation ! 

> 
> 

JohnnyO
> 
> 

On Sun, 2006-03-05 at 17:35 -0600, Victoria 
wrote:




http://www.stlbroadband.com/How_It_Works.htm

Victoria 
Proffer
www.StLouisBroadBand.com
314-974-5600




--- End of Original Message 
---





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RE: [WISPA] How is this for a wireless discription?

[Victoria]

Ok, still working on it :)
 
Thanks for your comments.
 

Victoria Proffer
www.StLouisBroadBand.com
314-974-5600


From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] 
[mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] On Behalf Of Scott 
ReedSent: Monday, March 06, 2006 7:11 AMTo: WISPA General 
ListSubject: Re: [WISPA] How is this for a wireless 
discription?
Especially since some of the links go to outside 
vendors, not an explanation.  I looked at the site and expected to find out 
what each piece was.  Instead I got a Trango add. Scott Reed 
Owner NewWays Wireless Networking Network Design, Installation 
and Administration www.nwwnet.net -- Original Message 
--- From: JohnnyO <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> To: 
[EMAIL PROTECTED], WISPA General List  Sent: 
Sun, 05 Mar 2006 22:45:30 -0600 Subject: Re: [WISPA] How is this for a 
wireless discription? > H - personally I don't like it but the 
end users may love it. Looks like someone spent a great deal of time on this and 
I commend them for that. Unfortunately - here the people would look at that 
picture and get confused and baffled and then we'd end up with double the 
questions during our explanation ! > > JohnnyO > > 
On Sun, 2006-03-05 at 17:35 -0600, Victoria wrote: 

http://www.stlbroadband.com/How_It_Works.htm

Victoria 
Proffer
www.StLouisBroadBand.com
314-974-5600

--- End of Original Message --- 

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Re: [WISPA] VoIP/PBX Gateway appliance - 911

[Peter R.]

Nuvio and CommPartners rely on Intrada for 911, just like Vonage.
As the Vonage IPO so clearly pointed out, 911 coverage is spotty at best.
Residential 911 is harder due to the nomadic possibilities.
CallVantage has taken measures to cover their butts and Lingo is working 
on it.
But Intrado is in the mist of being purchased, so 911 will be murky for 
the foreseeable future.


Regards,

Peter
RAD-INFO, Inc.

John Scrivner wrote:

The Nuvio guy told me they did not have 911 when I talked to them. 
When did this change?

Scriv


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Re: [WISPA] VoIP/PBX Gateway appliance

[Peter R.]

You haven't seen it yet, because Lingo is not profitable yet.
Primus owns Lingo and Primus is basically an International VOIP company.

Like so many VOIP Providers, they are still trying to figure out how to 
make a profit.


Delta3 (which is the backend for VZ's VoiceWing) made $9.1M in revenue 
in 4Q05 and just $22k in income.


Vonage has a customer acquisition cost that is 20 times their MRC.

Regards,

Peter


Jonathan Schmidt wrote:


I've been personally delighted with two years of Lingo giving me
unlimited USA/Canada/EUROPE calling on 7 lines each for $19.95/month
and an unusually rich set of features (like e-mailing me compressed WAV
files of all incoming voicemails, etc.).
 
Now, that's retail w/box and support.
 
I've taken the box on trips and routed it through my laptop Ethernet while

the laptop is on a V.32 dialup and it works but sounds kind of like a cell
phone but having my local number with me in Europe and having unlimited
free calls throughout Europe from Europe or Eastern Europe for ZERO
additional cost is kinda cool.
 
It's SIP but they keep promising a soft phone for the line, like 
Vonaga, but

haven't seen it yet.
 
. . . j o n a t h a n


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[WISPA] 5.4 very close now

[Marlon K. Schafer (509) 982-2181]

Hi All,

I talked to the FCC the other day.  5.4 is at the "grammatical checking 
stage".  All of the hard work is done.  Should see product soon.


They (the FCC) has extended the certification of the existing rules (5.4's 
rules also affect new 5.2 gig gear) for the current crop of 5.2 gig gear. 
Only till around June though.  The new rules should be well in place by 
then.


For those that haven't seen the latest from the NTIA (that's who was holding 
things up).

http://www.ntia.doc.gov/ntiahome/press/2006/5ghz_020806.htm

laters,
Marlon
(509) 982-2181   Equipment sales
(408) 907-6910 (Vonage)Consulting services
42846865 (icq)And I run my own wisp!
64.146.146.12 (net meeting)
www.odessaoffice.com/wireless
www.odessaoffice.com/marlon/cam



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Re: [WISPA] 5.4 very close now

[Mac Dearman]

Marlon,

 Please excuse my ignorance, but is this spectrum going to be turned loose 
to every wireless consumer grade appliances known to man or is this going to 
be something that is going to be released for the WISP? I know that I am 
dreaming here!!


Thanks,
Mac Dearman
Maximum Access, LLC.
Authorized Barracuda Reseller
MikroTik RouterOS Certified
www.inetsouth.com
www.mac-tel.us
www.RadioResponse.org (Katrina Relief)
Rayville, La.
318.728.8600
318.303.4228
318.303.4229





- Original Message - 
From: "Marlon K. Schafer (509) 982-2181" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>

To: 
Sent: Monday, March 06, 2006 9:28 AM
Subject: [WISPA] 5.4 very close now



Hi All,

I talked to the FCC the other day.  5.4 is at the "grammatical checking 
stage".  All of the hard work is done.  Should see product soon.


They (the FCC) has extended the certification of the existing rules (5.4's 
rules also affect new 5.2 gig gear) for the current crop of 5.2 gig gear. 
Only till around June though.  The new rules should be well in place by 
then.


For those that haven't seen the latest from the NTIA (that's who was 
holding things up).

http://www.ntia.doc.gov/ntiahome/press/2006/5ghz_020806.htm

laters,
Marlon
(509) 982-2181   Equipment sales
(408) 907-6910 (Vonage)Consulting services
42846865 (icq)And I run my own wisp!
64.146.146.12 (net meeting)
www.odessaoffice.com/wireless
www.odessaoffice.com/marlon/cam



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Re: [WISPA] Canopy Site, off-power-grid

[Alex Huppenthal]

Plan for an amp hour / hour..  24 amp hours / day. if you buy a  
couple of 100 amp hour walmart marine batteries you'd have 200/24 or  
about 9 days of run time without solar. I don't know what solar  
planning you need in Jersey. DoE has some maps of the US for solar  
planning - if it works out you only have 4 8 hour days around dec  
21st to charge your batteries, you'd need to calculate feeding the  
load - 1 amp continuous for 24 hours - which means 24 / 8 solar hours  
= 3 amps during that 8 hours for the load, plus battery charge time  
input. So, if you plan to charge the batteries to peak from zero in 3  
days, you'd need 200 / (8 hours (charge day) * 3) or about 9 amps for  
that. So a solar array might be 9 + 3 or 12 amps output @ 12 volts.  
The Moto stuff will work fine @ 12 volts, even though they are spec'd  
for higher. Finding a good 12 volt switch or router that suits you  
and draws little current can be a struggle.


hope this helps. by the way, I'm in Califon for the next couple of days.

On Mar 6, 2006, at 2:01 AM, Rick Smith wrote:



Need to install a short tower as a relay on a mountaintop, no power  
within 3/4 mile.


Anyone done battery / generator sites with one Canopy AP, one  
Canopy SM and a router, like Mikrotik in between ?


This is in NJ, not too good an environment for solar I imagine,  
although we'll be on a real high hill top (1250' elev) for this  
area...


R

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RE: [WISPA] 5.4 very close now

[Rick Harnish]

Mac,

As far as I know, the hardware/software has to be contention based to be
allowed to use the spectrum.  I would doubt if many consumer devices will be
allowed to operate in this spectrum.

I can tell you that Orthogon has already released the firmware upgrade for
the Gemini product to be used for the 5.4 Spectrum.
http://www.orthogonsystems.com/support/software.html

I just sent an email to them about the release date for the Spectra upgrade.


Rick Harnish
President
OnlyInternet Broadband & Wireless, Inc.
260-827-2482 Office
260-307-4000 Cell
260-918-4340 VoIP
www.oibw.net
[EMAIL PROTECTED]
 
  
 


-Original Message-
From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] On
Behalf Of Mac Dearman
Sent: Monday, March 06, 2006 11:02 AM
To: WISPA General List
Subject: Re: [WISPA] 5.4 very close now

Marlon,

  Please excuse my ignorance, but is this spectrum going to be turned loose 
to every wireless consumer grade appliances known to man or is this going to

be something that is going to be released for the WISP? I know that I am 
dreaming here!!

Thanks,
Mac Dearman
Maximum Access, LLC.
Authorized Barracuda Reseller
MikroTik RouterOS Certified
www.inetsouth.com
www.mac-tel.us
www.RadioResponse.org (Katrina Relief)
Rayville, La.
318.728.8600
318.303.4228
318.303.4229





- Original Message - 
From: "Marlon K. Schafer (509) 982-2181" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
To: 
Sent: Monday, March 06, 2006 9:28 AM
Subject: [WISPA] 5.4 very close now


> Hi All,
>
> I talked to the FCC the other day.  5.4 is at the "grammatical checking 
> stage".  All of the hard work is done.  Should see product soon.
>
> They (the FCC) has extended the certification of the existing rules (5.4's

> rules also affect new 5.2 gig gear) for the current crop of 5.2 gig gear. 
> Only till around June though.  The new rules should be well in place by 
> then.
>
> For those that haven't seen the latest from the NTIA (that's who was 
> holding things up).
> http://www.ntia.doc.gov/ntiahome/press/2006/5ghz_020806.htm
>
> laters,
> Marlon
> (509) 982-2181   Equipment sales
> (408) 907-6910 (Vonage)Consulting services
> 42846865 (icq)And I run my own wisp!
> 64.146.146.12 (net meeting)
> www.odessaoffice.com/wireless
> www.odessaoffice.com/marlon/cam
>
>
>
> -- 
> WISPA Wireless List: wireless@wispa.org
>
> Subscribe/Unsubscribe:
> http://lists.wispa.org/mailman/listinfo/wireless
>
> Archives: http://lists.wispa.org/pipermail/wireless/
> 

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RE: [WISPA] 5.4 very close now

[G.Villarini]

Rick,

The orthogon software upgrade pertaining to the 5.4 gzh band only applies to
the Gemini 5.4 capable unit only wich is for the Euro Market, non US based
gear has been certified yet for 5.4 ghz

>From the Orthogon release notes:

1.1 Support for the 5.4GHz Hardware Variant
The Orthogon Systems OS-Gemini product range has a new frequency variant to
compliment its existing 5.8GHz product range. The new 5.4GHz hardware
variant operates between 5.470 to 5.725GHz (defined as the ETSI 5 GHz band
B), utilising 11MHz channels widths and variable base 12MHz raster. 

Gino A. Villarini, 
Aeronet Wireless Broadband Corp.
[EMAIL PROTECTED]
www.aeronetpr.com
787.273.4143


-Original Message-
From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] On
Behalf Of Rick Harnish
Sent: Monday, March 06, 2006 12:48 PM
To: 'WISPA General List'
Subject: RE: [WISPA] 5.4 very close now

Mac,

As far as I know, the hardware/software has to be contention based to be
allowed to use the spectrum.  I would doubt if many consumer devices will be
allowed to operate in this spectrum.

I can tell you that Orthogon has already released the firmware upgrade for
the Gemini product to be used for the 5.4 Spectrum.
http://www.orthogonsystems.com/support/software.html

I just sent an email to them about the release date for the Spectra upgrade.


Rick Harnish
President
OnlyInternet Broadband & Wireless, Inc.
260-827-2482 Office
260-307-4000 Cell
260-918-4340 VoIP
www.oibw.net
[EMAIL PROTECTED]
 
  
 


-Original Message-
From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] On
Behalf Of Mac Dearman
Sent: Monday, March 06, 2006 11:02 AM
To: WISPA General List
Subject: Re: [WISPA] 5.4 very close now

Marlon,

  Please excuse my ignorance, but is this spectrum going to be turned loose 
to every wireless consumer grade appliances known to man or is this going to

be something that is going to be released for the WISP? I know that I am 
dreaming here!!

Thanks,
Mac Dearman
Maximum Access, LLC.
Authorized Barracuda Reseller
MikroTik RouterOS Certified
www.inetsouth.com
www.mac-tel.us
www.RadioResponse.org (Katrina Relief)
Rayville, La.
318.728.8600
318.303.4228
318.303.4229





- Original Message - 
From: "Marlon K. Schafer (509) 982-2181" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
To: 
Sent: Monday, March 06, 2006 9:28 AM
Subject: [WISPA] 5.4 very close now


> Hi All,
>
> I talked to the FCC the other day.  5.4 is at the "grammatical checking 
> stage".  All of the hard work is done.  Should see product soon.
>
> They (the FCC) has extended the certification of the existing rules (5.4's

> rules also affect new 5.2 gig gear) for the current crop of 5.2 gig gear. 
> Only till around June though.  The new rules should be well in place by 
> then.
>
> For those that haven't seen the latest from the NTIA (that's who was 
> holding things up).
> http://www.ntia.doc.gov/ntiahome/press/2006/5ghz_020806.htm
>
> laters,
> Marlon
> (509) 982-2181   Equipment sales
> (408) 907-6910 (Vonage)Consulting services
> 42846865 (icq)And I run my own wisp!
> 64.146.146.12 (net meeting)
> www.odessaoffice.com/wireless
> www.odessaoffice.com/marlon/cam
>
>
>
> -- 
> WISPA Wireless List: wireless@wispa.org
>
> Subscribe/Unsubscribe:
> http://lists.wispa.org/mailman/listinfo/wireless
>
> Archives: http://lists.wispa.org/pipermail/wireless/
> 

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Re: [WISPA] 5.4 very close now

[Bob Moldashel]

Sorry to bust your bubble but that was EU only

-B-



Rick Harnish wrote:


Mac,

As far as I know, the hardware/software has to be contention based to be
allowed to use the spectrum.  I would doubt if many consumer devices will be
allowed to operate in this spectrum.

I can tell you that Orthogon has already released the firmware upgrade for
the Gemini product to be used for the 5.4 Spectrum.
http://www.orthogonsystems.com/support/software.html

I just sent an email to them about the release date for the Spectra upgrade.


Rick Harnish
President
OnlyInternet Broadband & Wireless, Inc.
260-827-2482 Office
260-307-4000 Cell
260-918-4340 VoIP
www.oibw.net
[EMAIL PROTECTED]

 



 




--
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Lakeland Communications, Inc.
Broadband Deployment Group
1350 Lincoln Avenue
Holbrook, New York 11741 USA
800-479-9195 Toll Free US & Canada
631-585-5558 Fax
516-551-1131 Cell

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Re: [WISPA] VoIP/PBX Gateway appliance

[John Scrivner]

Primus tells me they are more than a VOIP company and that they do make 
money. They impressed me in my dealings with them. Can you share more 
about your information about Primus? I have a big interest in knowing 
anything I can about them right now.

Thanks,
Scriv


Peter R. wrote:


You haven't seen it yet, because Lingo is not profitable yet.
Primus owns Lingo and Primus is basically an International VOIP company.

Like so many VOIP Providers, they are still trying to figure out how 
to make a profit.


Delta3 (which is the backend for VZ's VoiceWing) made $9.1M in revenue 
in 4Q05 and just $22k in income.


Vonage has a customer acquisition cost that is 20 times their MRC.

Regards,

Peter


Jonathan Schmidt wrote:


I've been personally delighted with two years of Lingo giving me
unlimited USA/Canada/EUROPE calling on 7 lines each for $19.95/month
and an unusually rich set of features (like e-mailing me compressed WAV
files of all incoming voicemails, etc.).
 
Now, that's retail w/box and support.
 
I've taken the box on trips and routed it through my laptop Ethernet 
while
the laptop is on a V.32 dialup and it works but sounds kind of like a 
cell

phone but having my local number with me in Europe and having unlimited
free calls throughout Europe from Europe or Eastern Europe for ZERO
additional cost is kinda cool.
 
It's SIP but they keep promising a soft phone for the line, like 
Vonaga, but

haven't seen it yet.
 
. . . j o n a t h a n




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Re: [WISPA] AT&T merging with BellSouth

[George Rogato]

Qwest is next.

We all know consolidation is going to continue.

So I went out and bought some Qwest  shares this am.

George

Frank Muto wrote:

NYT/WSJ

AT&T Inc. is nearing the acquisition of BellSouth Corp. for roughly $65
billion, people familiar with the situation said Saturday evening. A deal
could be announced as early as Monday, these people said.

Final terms of the deal could not be learned Saturday evening, but these
people said AT&T Inc. would pay a premium for BellSouth shares of at least
15%, valuing the company at $36 per share at least, up from its trading
price Friday of $31.46. That would push the total equity value of the deal
to at least $65 billion, plus the assumption of an additional $17 
billion of

BellSouth debt.

Spokespeople for BellSouth and AT&T declined to comment.

An AT&T-BellSouth deal would effectively cleave the nation's telecom
services in two, each vertically integrated with a local phone operation,
business services, and wireless unit. And it would effectively validate the
vision of competition laid out by the government -- one in which 
traditional

telecom firms compete directly against cable operators rather than against
each other. The move would give AT&T Inc. sole control over Cingular, the
nation's largest wireless operator.

A combination between AT&T and BellSouth could have combined market
capitalization of nearly $160 billion, making AT&T far larger than rival
Verizon. The deal would nonetheless set a showdown between AT&T and 
Verizon,

as the two fight to control wireless, the growth portion of the telecom
business.

It was the steep growth of Cingular -- joint owned by BellSouth and the
former SBC -- that helped push the two firms together, say telecom bankers
familiar with the space. As the importance of the wireless business grew,
they say, it became inevitable that SBC (which adopted the AT&T name just
months ago) would consolidate its position in the South.

Put together, the SBC territory would extend from California to Florida,
north to Illinois and south to Texas. Combining the two companies' current
market capitalizations, AT&T would have a market value approaching $150
billion, over 50% greater than Verizon.

AT&T Chairman and Chief Executive Edward Whitacre has made a name for
himself in the telecommunications industry as a serial acquirer.
Mr. Whitacre is able to boast of a string of acquisitions including Pacific
Telesis Corp., Ameritech Corp. and Southern New England Telecommunications
Corp. But as he nears retirement the market had been anticipating one last
hurrah from him; a BellSouth acquisition by AT&T has long been the subject
of speculation from analysts, investors and the two companies' rivals.

Still the speedy move to acquire BellSouth came as a surprise so soon after
Mr. Whitacre's takeover of AT&T Corp. last fall. His company is just
starting to digest the $16 billion acquisition. The former SBC
Communications Inc. took over AT&T Corp. and adopted the AT&T moniker. The
new company dominates nearly every aspect of the industry, from high-speed
Internet connections to long-distance phone service, as well as wireless.
And Mr. Whitacre now has access to the old
AT&T's enterprise business and world-wide network.

Such a deal would likely prompt howls of protest in some quarters as it
comes on the heels not only of the AT&T-SBC deal but also after Verizon
Communications Inc.'s acquisition of MCI. Those deals were approved with
only a few minor conditions despite concerns they would lead to higher
prices for business customers.
The wave of mergers has dramatically reshaped the telecom industry, and a
purchase of BellSouth would further cement the recreation of the old Ma
Bell, which the
government pushed to break up in 1984.

The management of AT&T, which has apparently briefed key senior government
officials late last week, appears to be betting that the Bush 
administration

and a Bell-friendly Federal Communications Commission won't raise too many
obstacles for such a deal, arguing that the companies serve different
geographic regions and do not currently compete with one another in a
significant way.

Although AT&T and Verizon's last mergers passed both FCC and Justice
Department review with little major problems, the latest proposed merger 
may

face more hurdles. Recent comments by AT&T and BellSouth executives about
their intentions to explore new revenue streams from their high-speed
Internet services by introducing two-tier or "premium" service for Internet
content providers. Concerns about those plans and the concept of "net
neutrality," or ensuring that consumers have open access to all Internet
sites and services and businesses do not find their content slowed, has
become a major problems for the Bells in Washington.

Meanwhile, the FCC that will be reviewing the AT&T/BellSouth deal will
likely be a much different body soon with the addition of Robert 
McDowell, a

veteran telecom lawyer who currently serves as assistant g

RE: [WISPA] VoIP/PBX Gateway appliance

[Dustin Jurman]

Delta3 - is the EBITA?

DSJ

-Original Message-
From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] On
Behalf Of John Scrivner
Sent: Monday, March 06, 2006 12:47 PM
To: [EMAIL PROTECTED]; WISPA General List
Subject: Re: [WISPA] VoIP/PBX Gateway appliance

Primus tells me they are more than a VOIP company and that they do make 
money. They impressed me in my dealings with them. Can you share more 
about your information about Primus? I have a big interest in knowing 
anything I can about them right now.
Thanks,
Scriv


Peter R. wrote:

> You haven't seen it yet, because Lingo is not profitable yet.
> Primus owns Lingo and Primus is basically an International VOIP company.
>
> Like so many VOIP Providers, they are still trying to figure out how 
> to make a profit.
>
> Delta3 (which is the backend for VZ's VoiceWing) made $9.1M in revenue 
> in 4Q05 and just $22k in income.
>
> Vonage has a customer acquisition cost that is 20 times their MRC.
>
> Regards,
>
> Peter
>
>
> Jonathan Schmidt wrote:
>
>> I've been personally delighted with two years of Lingo giving me
>> unlimited USA/Canada/EUROPE calling on 7 lines each for $19.95/month
>> and an unusually rich set of features (like e-mailing me compressed WAV
>> files of all incoming voicemails, etc.).
>>  
>> Now, that's retail w/box and support.
>>  
>> I've taken the box on trips and routed it through my laptop Ethernet 
>> while
>> the laptop is on a V.32 dialup and it works but sounds kind of like a 
>> cell
>> phone but having my local number with me in Europe and having unlimited
>> free calls throughout Europe from Europe or Eastern Europe for ZERO
>> additional cost is kinda cool.
>>  
>> It's SIP but they keep promising a soft phone for the line, like 
>> Vonaga, but
>> haven't seen it yet.
>>  
>> . . . j o n a t h a n
>
>
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Re: [WISPA] How is this for a wireless discription?

[Marlon K. Schafer (509) 982-2181]

Looks good!

Now will you PLEASE stop screwing with web sites and go sell!

Marlon
(509) 982-2181   Equipment sales
(408) 907-6910 (Vonage)Consulting services
42846865 (icq)And I run my own wisp!
64.146.146.12 (net meeting)
www.odessaoffice.com/wireless
www.odessaoffice.com/marlon/cam



- Original Message - 
From: "Victoria" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>

To: "'WISPA General List'" 
Sent: Sunday, March 05, 2006 3:35 PM
Subject: [WISPA] How is this for a wireless discription?





http://www.stlbroadband.com/How_It_Works.htm

Victoria Proffer
www.StLouisBroadBand.com
314-974-5600

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Re: [WISPA] VoIP/PBX Gateway appliance

[Matt Liotta]

Primus/Lingo is calling every WISP in the country trying to sign them up 
for a very CommPartners like deal. All of these VoIP providers are using 
the same shitty model that will be worthless in 2 years time. There is 
no money to be made in VoIP short-term unless you operate your own 
equipment. Long-term, there is no money to be made in VoIP at all. VoIP 
will soon be a loss leader; plan for it or do get into the VoIP business.


BTW, Primus makes all their money on international termination. The 
domestic stuff is losing money hand over fist.


-Matt

John Scrivner wrote:

Primus tells me they are more than a VOIP company and that they do 
make money. They impressed me in my dealings with them. Can you share 
more about your information about Primus? I have a big interest in 
knowing anything I can about them right now.

Thanks,
Scriv


Peter R. wrote:


You haven't seen it yet, because Lingo is not profitable yet.
Primus owns Lingo and Primus is basically an International VOIP company.

Like so many VOIP Providers, they are still trying to figure out how 
to make a profit.


Delta3 (which is the backend for VZ's VoiceWing) made $9.1M in 
revenue in 4Q05 and just $22k in income.


Vonage has a customer acquisition cost that is 20 times their MRC.

Regards,

Peter


Jonathan Schmidt wrote:


I've been personally delighted with two years of Lingo giving me
unlimited USA/Canada/EUROPE calling on 7 lines each for $19.95/month
and an unusually rich set of features (like e-mailing me compressed WAV
files of all incoming voicemails, etc.).
 
Now, that's retail w/box and support.
 
I've taken the box on trips and routed it through my laptop Ethernet 
while
the laptop is on a V.32 dialup and it works but sounds kind of like 
a cell

phone but having my local number with me in Europe and having unlimited
free calls throughout Europe from Europe or Eastern Europe for ZERO
additional cost is kinda cool.
 
It's SIP but they keep promising a soft phone for the line, like 
Vonaga, but

haven't seen it yet.
 
. . . j o n a t h a n






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Re: [WISPA] VoIP/PBX Gateway appliance

[Jason Hensley]

For someone like me who is currently looking at getting into the VoIP 
business, why is it that you feel VoIP will be a long-term loser?  I have 
just started my research into what it will take to provide this so I'm a 
little behind on it, but I'm definately interested in all opinions and 
options.


Thanks!



- Original Message - 
From: "Matt Liotta" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>

To: "WISPA General List" 
Sent: Monday, March 06, 2006 12:09 PM
Subject: Re: [WISPA] VoIP/PBX Gateway appliance


Primus/Lingo is calling every WISP in the country trying to sign them up 
for a very CommPartners like deal. All of these VoIP providers are using 
the same shitty model that will be worthless in 2 years time. There is no 
money to be made in VoIP short-term unless you operate your own equipment. 
Long-term, there is no money to be made in VoIP at all. VoIP will soon be 
a loss leader; plan for it or do get into the VoIP business.


BTW, Primus makes all their money on international termination. The 
domestic stuff is losing money hand over fist.


-Matt

John Scrivner wrote:

Primus tells me they are more than a VOIP company and that they do make 
money. They impressed me in my dealings with them. Can you share more 
about your information about Primus? I have a big interest in knowing 
anything I can about them right now.

Thanks,
Scriv


Peter R. wrote:


You haven't seen it yet, because Lingo is not profitable yet.
Primus owns Lingo and Primus is basically an International VOIP company.

Like so many VOIP Providers, they are still trying to figure out how to 
make a profit.


Delta3 (which is the backend for VZ's VoiceWing) made $9.1M in revenue 
in 4Q05 and just $22k in income.


Vonage has a customer acquisition cost that is 20 times their MRC.

Regards,

Peter


Jonathan Schmidt wrote:


I've been personally delighted with two years of Lingo giving me
unlimited USA/Canada/EUROPE calling on 7 lines each for $19.95/month
and an unusually rich set of features (like e-mailing me compressed WAV
files of all incoming voicemails, etc.).
 Now, that's retail w/box and support.
 I've taken the box on trips and routed it through my laptop Ethernet 
while
the laptop is on a V.32 dialup and it works but sounds kind of like a 
cell

phone but having my local number with me in Europe and having unlimited
free calls throughout Europe from Europe or Eastern Europe for ZERO
additional cost is kinda cool.
 It's SIP but they keep promising a soft phone for the line, like 
Vonaga, but

haven't seen it yet.
 . . . j o n a t h a n






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Re: [WISPA] VoIP/PBX Gateway appliance

[Matt Liotta]

Quite simply, VoIP will be free in the long run. Use it to sell 
bandwidth or what have you, but don't plan on profiting from it directly 
outside of specific niches such as call centers. We have provisioned 
hundreds of phone numbers and sold hundreds of phone lines, but our 
actual monthly cost for providing the service outside of equipment, 
bandwidth, and other overhead is around $200 per month. With that kind 
of expense we could give away service as a loss leader and not even 
notice it. Do you think we are alone?


We own the network, so VoIP is easy and cheap to provide our customers. 
This is not the case for the Vonages of the world.


-Matt

Jason Hensley wrote:

For someone like me who is currently looking at getting into the VoIP 
business, why is it that you feel VoIP will be a long-term loser?  I 
have just started my research into what it will take to provide this 
so I'm a little behind on it, but I'm definately interested in all 
opinions and options.


Thanks!



- Original Message - From: "Matt Liotta" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
To: "WISPA General List" 
Sent: Monday, March 06, 2006 12:09 PM
Subject: Re: [WISPA] VoIP/PBX Gateway appliance


Primus/Lingo is calling every WISP in the country trying to sign them 
up for a very CommPartners like deal. All of these VoIP providers are 
using the same shitty model that will be worthless in 2 years time. 
There is no money to be made in VoIP short-term unless you operate 
your own equipment. Long-term, there is no money to be made in VoIP 
at all. VoIP will soon be a loss leader; plan for it or do get into 
the VoIP business.


BTW, Primus makes all their money on international termination. The 
domestic stuff is losing money hand over fist.


-Matt

John Scrivner wrote:

Primus tells me they are more than a VOIP company and that they do 
make money. They impressed me in my dealings with them. Can you 
share more about your information about Primus? I have a big 
interest in knowing anything I can about them right now.

Thanks,
Scriv


Peter R. wrote:


You haven't seen it yet, because Lingo is not profitable yet.
Primus owns Lingo and Primus is basically an International VOIP 
company.


Like so many VOIP Providers, they are still trying to figure out 
how to make a profit.


Delta3 (which is the backend for VZ's VoiceWing) made $9.1M in 
revenue in 4Q05 and just $22k in income.


Vonage has a customer acquisition cost that is 20 times their MRC.

Regards,

Peter


Jonathan Schmidt wrote:


I've been personally delighted with two years of Lingo giving me
unlimited USA/Canada/EUROPE calling on 7 lines each for $19.95/month
and an unusually rich set of features (like e-mailing me 
compressed WAV

files of all incoming voicemails, etc.).
 Now, that's retail w/box and support.
 I've taken the box on trips and routed it through my laptop 
Ethernet while
the laptop is on a V.32 dialup and it works but sounds kind of 
like a cell
phone but having my local number with me in Europe and having 
unlimited

free calls throughout Europe from Europe or Eastern Europe for ZERO
additional cost is kinda cool.
 It's SIP but they keep promising a soft phone for the line, like 
Vonaga, but

haven't seen it yet.
 . . . j o n a t h a n







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Re: [WISPA] VoIP/PBX Gateway appliance

[Tom DeReggi]

John,

Primus has two seperate Voice products.
Their Business (primus) service is the answer for WISPs/ISPs, that jsut want 
to sell an analog replacement line to a business to sue their existin PBX.
Primus actually embrases this unlike just about every other VOIP wholesaler 
on the planet.
The big margin profit isn't there when partnering with Primus, but its great 
for the smaller guy, that doesn't want to do much.
The WISP gets the Lead, lets Primus do the heavy lifting, and the WISP gets 
a reasonable commission. Not as much as if they rebranded it, but enough 
since they don't have to do much.
Its a good partner when the WISP wants to concentrate  on its core 
competency, and let the VOIP guy do his thing, but get a peice of the 
action, and offer their customers a full suite of servcies.
So whether Primus is the right provider depends on the commitment that a 
WISP wants to make.


From what I heard Lingo was going to be offered to resellers in the near 
future, to Primus resellers. I actually signed up with Primus for my 
business offerings, but I have not been very active with them much yet, as I 
needed a residential VOIP service. I'm watching closely to what they do with 
Lingo.


The reason is Lingo is priced to be competitive with all the other Direct 
residential providers. Thats not necessarilly the WISP's goal.  I want to 
charge more because I can. I can guarantee performance (QOS) of my branded 
service, depending on the view of network neutrality.  Customers want one 
bill.  And I want bigger margins, meaning, standard percentage commission 
when sold at Lingo retial, but when sold at higher price I want that margin, 
as its my network relationship that allows it, and I that need to spend 
money to upgrade my network to handle delivering top performance.  The idea 
is to only sell the VOIP service that you can guarantee the best performance 
in. And the network provider needs a bigger peice for that. But a larger end 
user price can be charged as well.


I have not made a decission on wether Lingo will or will not be a good 
option for WISPs and myself.


Tom DeReggi
RapidDSL & Wireless, Inc
IntAirNet- Fixed Wireless Broadband


- Original Message - 
From: "John Scrivner" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>

To: <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>; "WISPA General List" 
Sent: Monday, March 06, 2006 12:47 PM
Subject: Re: [WISPA] VoIP/PBX Gateway appliance


Primus tells me they are more than a VOIP company and that they do make 
money. They impressed me in my dealings with them. Can you share more 
about your information about Primus? I have a big interest in knowing 
anything I can about them right now.

Thanks,
Scriv


Peter R. wrote:


You haven't seen it yet, because Lingo is not profitable yet.
Primus owns Lingo and Primus is basically an International VOIP company.

Like so many VOIP Providers, they are still trying to figure out how to 
make a profit.


Delta3 (which is the backend for VZ's VoiceWing) made $9.1M in revenue in 
4Q05 and just $22k in income.


Vonage has a customer acquisition cost that is 20 times their MRC.

Regards,

Peter


Jonathan Schmidt wrote:


I've been personally delighted with two years of Lingo giving me
unlimited USA/Canada/EUROPE calling on 7 lines each for $19.95/month
and an unusually rich set of features (like e-mailing me compressed WAV
files of all incoming voicemails, etc.).
 Now, that's retail w/box and support.
 I've taken the box on trips and routed it through my laptop Ethernet 
while
the laptop is on a V.32 dialup and it works but sounds kind of like a 
cell

phone but having my local number with me in Europe and having unlimited
free calls throughout Europe from Europe or Eastern Europe for ZERO
additional cost is kinda cool.
 It's SIP but they keep promising a soft phone for the line, like 
Vonaga, but

haven't seen it yet.
 . . . j o n a t h a n




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Re: [WISPA] VoIP/PBX Gateway appliance

[Tom DeReggi]

Did they happen to list executive's salaries?
A company doesn't have to be profitable for the officers to be profitable.
Good tax planning does not necessarilly, reflect the real health of the 
company.

Tom DeReggi
RapidDSL & Wireless, Inc
IntAirNet- Fixed Wireless Broadband


- Original Message - 
From: "Dustin Jurman" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>

To: "'WISPA General List'" ; <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
Sent: Monday, March 06, 2006 12:57 PM
Subject: RE: [WISPA] VoIP/PBX Gateway appliance



Delta3 - is the EBITA?

DSJ

-Original Message-
From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] On
Behalf Of John Scrivner
Sent: Monday, March 06, 2006 12:47 PM
To: [EMAIL PROTECTED]; WISPA General List
Subject: Re: [WISPA] VoIP/PBX Gateway appliance

Primus tells me they are more than a VOIP company and that they do make
money. They impressed me in my dealings with them. Can you share more
about your information about Primus? I have a big interest in knowing
anything I can about them right now.
Thanks,
Scriv


Peter R. wrote:


You haven't seen it yet, because Lingo is not profitable yet.
Primus owns Lingo and Primus is basically an International VOIP company.

Like so many VOIP Providers, they are still trying to figure out how
to make a profit.

Delta3 (which is the backend for VZ's VoiceWing) made $9.1M in revenue
in 4Q05 and just $22k in income.

Vonage has a customer acquisition cost that is 20 times their MRC.

Regards,

Peter


Jonathan Schmidt wrote:


I've been personally delighted with two years of Lingo giving me
unlimited USA/Canada/EUROPE calling on 7 lines each for $19.95/month
and an unusually rich set of features (like e-mailing me compressed WAV
files of all incoming voicemails, etc.).

Now, that's retail w/box and support.

I've taken the box on trips and routed it through my laptop Ethernet
while
the laptop is on a V.32 dialup and it works but sounds kind of like a
cell
phone but having my local number with me in Europe and having unlimited
free calls throughout Europe from Europe or Eastern Europe for ZERO
additional cost is kinda cool.

It's SIP but they keep promising a soft phone for the line, like
Vonaga, but
haven't seen it yet.

. . . j o n a t h a n




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Re: [WISPA] AT&T merging with BellSouth

[Peter R.]

Qwest has too much debt.
BellSouth LD is Qwest's largest customer.
So even less revenue to pay off that huge debt.


George Rogato wrote:


Qwest is next.

We all know consolidation is going to continue.

So I went out and bought some Qwest  shares this am.

George


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Re: [WISPA] VoIP/PBX Gateway appliance

[Jason Hensley]

What about for those of us in small markets where the large VoIP players 
don't have access numbers?  What is your opinion on them coming here?  For 
instance, I'm in an area where the closest VoIP provider's number is 100 
miles away with probably 25 or so NXX's that cannot call it locally.  Not a 
feasible decision for a local business as any phone calls to them will be 
long distance for local residents.  Is there a case for or against 
partnering / working with a CLEC who has the ability to be WAY more flexible 
than the ILEC's, have them drop you DS1's / PRI's / whatever and work with 
them on getting local VoIP numbers for the folks in these areas?  I'm 
getting more and more people who want wireless Internet SOLELY because they 
do not have a home phone line other than their cell phone.  Do you see that 
as what we're headed to?  I do and I don't personally.  I think there will 
be a market of some kind for that, but I feel as well that for at least the 
foreseeable future (say 10 years or so), markets such as mine will not be 
doing away with wireline.  Too many challenges for both cellular providers, 
and WISP's due to terrain and sparseness of population.


I guess I'm having a hard time understanding why it cannot be profitable, at 
least on some level.





- Original Message - 
From: "Matt Liotta" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>

To: "WISPA General List" 
Sent: Monday, March 06, 2006 12:40 PM
Subject: Re: [WISPA] VoIP/PBX Gateway appliance


Quite simply, VoIP will be free in the long run. Use it to sell bandwidth 
or what have you, but don't plan on profiting from it directly outside of 
specific niches such as call centers. We have provisioned hundreds of 
phone numbers and sold hundreds of phone lines, but our actual monthly 
cost for providing the service outside of equipment, bandwidth, and other 
overhead is around $200 per month. With that kind of expense we could give 
away service as a loss leader and not even notice it. Do you think we are 
alone?


We own the network, so VoIP is easy and cheap to provide our customers. 
This is not the case for the Vonages of the world.


-Matt

Jason Hensley wrote:

For someone like me who is currently looking at getting into the VoIP 
business, why is it that you feel VoIP will be a long-term loser?  I have 
just started my research into what it will take to provide this so I'm a 
little behind on it, but I'm definately interested in all opinions and 
options.


Thanks!



- Original Message - From: "Matt Liotta" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
To: "WISPA General List" 
Sent: Monday, March 06, 2006 12:09 PM
Subject: Re: [WISPA] VoIP/PBX Gateway appliance


Primus/Lingo is calling every WISP in the country trying to sign them up 
for a very CommPartners like deal. All of these VoIP providers are using 
the same shitty model that will be worthless in 2 years time. There is 
no money to be made in VoIP short-term unless you operate your own 
equipment. Long-term, there is no money to be made in VoIP at all. VoIP 
will soon be a loss leader; plan for it or do get into the VoIP 
business.


BTW, Primus makes all their money on international termination. The 
domestic stuff is losing money hand over fist.


-Matt

John Scrivner wrote:

Primus tells me they are more than a VOIP company and that they do make 
money. They impressed me in my dealings with them. Can you share more 
about your information about Primus? I have a big interest in knowing 
anything I can about them right now.

Thanks,
Scriv


Peter R. wrote:


You haven't seen it yet, because Lingo is not profitable yet.
Primus owns Lingo and Primus is basically an International VOIP 
company.


Like so many VOIP Providers, they are still trying to figure out how 
to make a profit.


Delta3 (which is the backend for VZ's VoiceWing) made $9.1M in revenue 
in 4Q05 and just $22k in income.


Vonage has a customer acquisition cost that is 20 times their MRC.

Regards,

Peter


Jonathan Schmidt wrote:


I've been personally delighted with two years of Lingo giving me
unlimited USA/Canada/EUROPE calling on 7 lines each for $19.95/month
and an unusually rich set of features (like e-mailing me compressed 
WAV

files of all incoming voicemails, etc.).
 Now, that's retail w/box and support.
 I've taken the box on trips and routed it through my laptop Ethernet 
while
the laptop is on a V.32 dialup and it works but sounds kind of like a 
cell
phone but having my local number with me in Europe and having 
unlimited

free calls throughout Europe from Europe or Eastern Europe for ZERO
additional cost is kinda cool.
 It's SIP but they keep promising a soft phone for the line, like 
Vonaga, but

haven't seen it yet.
 . . . j o n a t h a n







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Re: [WISPA] AT&T merging with BellSouth

[Blake Bowers]

Not likely.  

Qwest has 14 billion in long term debt, 
Qwest is still losing money,

Qwest has NO wireless,
Qwest has a smaller customer base per square mile than
any player.

- Original Message - 
From: "George Rogato" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>

To: "WISPA General List" 
Sent: Monday, March 06, 2006 11:56 AM
Subject: Re: [WISPA] AT&T merging with BellSouth



Qwest is next.

We all know consolidation is going to continue.

So I went out and bought some Qwest  shares this am.

George




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Re: [WISPA] VoIP/PBX Gateway appliance

[Tom DeReggi]

MAtt,

I agree with you on most of your comments.
However, there is more to it.

Offering VOIP is not just about making money on it. Its about controlling 
who has access to your subscribers, if one does not have the time to be a 
VOIP provider themselves.
Bundling is a necessarily part of succeeding going  in to the future.  Its 
more important that ever to outsource VOIP, if it will likely never be a 
profitable business. let someone else loose the money, and reap the rewards 
of bundling today.  Give the companies access to your clients that will be 
the lowest threat.


What benefit is it to allow, Vonage, ATT, Comcast, Verizon access to your 
client base, by allowing your subscribers to choose their VOIP options?


So Matt, I agree if the ISP/WISP intends to make significant money on the 
service, build your own.  But don't knock the Primus/CommPartner models, 
they have their purpose and will enable many WISPs/ISPs to have an option to 
offer, that don;t have the resources to build their own.


What this industry needs to recognize is that there are industry trends that 
are going to gain market share, because consumers demand them and are 
willing to buy. They don't care who makes or looses money, they jsut know 
how to compare retail price they pay to the quality the receive.  JUst like 
Muni broadband, its a reality of something that is going to happen.  So my 
point is, pick the companies that you want to help succeed, and which ones 
you want to help NOT succeed, because some of them ARE going to succeed.


Tom DeReggi
RapidDSL & Wireless, Inc
IntAirNet- Fixed Wireless Broadband


- Original Message - 
From: "Matt Liotta" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>

To: "WISPA General List" 
Sent: Monday, March 06, 2006 1:09 PM
Subject: Re: [WISPA] VoIP/PBX Gateway appliance


Primus/Lingo is calling every WISP in the country trying to sign them up 
for a very CommPartners like deal. All of these VoIP providers are using 
the same shitty model that will be worthless in 2 years time. There is no 
money to be made in VoIP short-term unless you operate your own equipment. 
Long-term, there is no money to be made in VoIP at all. VoIP will soon be 
a loss leader; plan for it or do get into the VoIP business.


BTW, Primus makes all their money on international termination. The 
domestic stuff is losing money hand over fist.


-Matt

John Scrivner wrote:

Primus tells me they are more than a VOIP company and that they do make 
money. They impressed me in my dealings with them. Can you share more 
about your information about Primus? I have a big interest in knowing 
anything I can about them right now.

Thanks,
Scriv


Peter R. wrote:


You haven't seen it yet, because Lingo is not profitable yet.
Primus owns Lingo and Primus is basically an International VOIP company.

Like so many VOIP Providers, they are still trying to figure out how to 
make a profit.


Delta3 (which is the backend for VZ's VoiceWing) made $9.1M in revenue 
in 4Q05 and just $22k in income.


Vonage has a customer acquisition cost that is 20 times their MRC.

Regards,

Peter


Jonathan Schmidt wrote:


I've been personally delighted with two years of Lingo giving me
unlimited USA/Canada/EUROPE calling on 7 lines each for $19.95/month
and an unusually rich set of features (like e-mailing me compressed WAV
files of all incoming voicemails, etc.).
 Now, that's retail w/box and support.
 I've taken the box on trips and routed it through my laptop Ethernet 
while
the laptop is on a V.32 dialup and it works but sounds kind of like a 
cell

phone but having my local number with me in Europe and having unlimited
free calls throughout Europe from Europe or Eastern Europe for ZERO
additional cost is kinda cool.
 It's SIP but they keep promising a soft phone for the line, like 
Vonaga, but

haven't seen it yet.
 . . . j o n a t h a n






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Re: [WISPA] VoIP/PBX Gateway appliance

[Peter R.]

Primus is a big International LD company. That is how it began in 1994.
Check out the Primus Wireless plan. Cellular and VOIP are based in 
International exchanges.


Primus has short term debt of $26M; long term is $635M.
About to be de-listed from Nasdaq.
Net loss for the fourth quarter 2005 was ($25) million (including a $13 
million net loss from foreign currency transactions, a $4 million gain 
on early extinguishment of debt and $1 million in severance expense).


Revenue growth was in wireless (MVNO), Covad re-sale, and International 
markets.


Retail VOIP services grew modestly in the quarter to approximately 
104,000 customers. This growth level reflects the fact that the Company 
continued to moderate its investment in LINGO in part due to the 
disruption in marketing activities raised by E911 regulations. Revenue 
from retail VOIP customers reached $8 million during the fourth quarter.



John Scrivner wrote:

Primus tells me they are more than a VOIP company and that they do 
make money. They impressed me in my dealings with them. Can you share 
more about your information about Primus? I have a big interest in 
knowing anything I can about them right now.

Thanks,
Scriv


Peter R. wrote:


You haven't seen it yet, because Lingo is not profitable yet.
Primus owns Lingo and Primus is basically an International VOIP company.

Like so many VOIP Providers, they are still trying to figure out how 
to make a profit.


Delta3 (which is the backend for VZ's VoiceWing) made $9.1M in 
revenue in 4Q05 and just $22k in income.


Vonage has a customer acquisition cost that is 20 times their MRC.

Regards,

Peter




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RE: [WISPA] VoIP/PBX Gateway appliance

[danlist]

so should primus be avoided?

Dan Metcalf
Wireless Broadband Systems
www.wbisp.com
781-566-2053 ext 6201
1-888-wbsystem (888) 927-9783
[EMAIL PROTECTED]
support: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
 

> -Original Message-
> From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] On Behalf
> Of Peter R.
> Sent: Monday, March 06, 2006 2:05 PM
> To: John Scrivner
> Cc: WISPA General List
> Subject: Re: [WISPA] VoIP/PBX Gateway appliance
> 
> Primus is a big International LD company. That is how it began in 1994.
> Check out the Primus Wireless plan. Cellular and VOIP are based in
> International exchanges.
> 
> Primus has short term debt of $26M; long term is $635M.
> About to be de-listed from Nasdaq.
> Net loss for the fourth quarter 2005 was ($25) million (including a $13
> million net loss from foreign currency transactions, a $4 million gain
> on early extinguishment of debt and $1 million in severance expense).
> 
> Revenue growth was in wireless (MVNO), Covad re-sale, and International
> markets.
> 
> Retail VOIP services grew modestly in the quarter to approximately
> 104,000 customers. This growth level reflects the fact that the Company
> continued to moderate its investment in LINGO in part due to the
> disruption in marketing activities raised by E911 regulations. Revenue
> from retail VOIP customers reached $8 million during the fourth quarter.
> 
> 
> John Scrivner wrote:
> 
> > Primus tells me they are more than a VOIP company and that they do
> > make money. They impressed me in my dealings with them. Can you share
> > more about your information about Primus? I have a big interest in
> > knowing anything I can about them right now.
> > Thanks,
> > Scriv
> >
> >
> > Peter R. wrote:
> >
> >> You haven't seen it yet, because Lingo is not profitable yet.
> >> Primus owns Lingo and Primus is basically an International VOIP company.
> >>
> >> Like so many VOIP Providers, they are still trying to figure out how
> >> to make a profit.
> >>
> >> Delta3 (which is the backend for VZ's VoiceWing) made $9.1M in
> >> revenue in 4Q05 and just $22k in income.
> >>
> >> Vonage has a customer acquisition cost that is 20 times their MRC.
> >>
> >> Regards,
> >>
> >> Peter
> >
> 
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RE: [WISPA] VoIP/PBX Gateway appliance

[Brian Webster]

I might be inclined to say it may be a loser in the future. I just read an 
article in a Telco trade magazine that announced a software package that can 
sniff SIP packets and give real time information for billing based on an IBM 
server. In that same article they talked about how they could limit or stop any 
SIP traffic from any provider if they wanted, but the thing that caught my eye 
was how they mentioned they could tell things like termination points and 
delivery charges. This is just like the current Telco model. If they start 
pushing VOIP to a typical Telco model (and they should from their point of view 
to level the playing field and raise the cost of doing VOIP) then the 
regulatory and call delivery costs will go up and the cost benefit starts to go 
down. It is an interesting point of view and worth keeping an eye on. The way 
they were able to shove the 911 thing down the VOIP operators throats in such 
short order makes me wonder if they won't do the same thing with termination 
charges based on IP and packets like they do with copper now.



Thank You,
Brian Webster
www.wirelessmapping.com  



-Original Message-
From: Jason Hensley [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]
Sent: Monday, March 06, 2006 1:25 PM
To: WISPA General List
Subject: Re: [WISPA] VoIP/PBX Gateway appliance


For someone like me who is currently looking at getting into the VoIP 
business, why is it that you feel VoIP will be a long-term loser?  I have 
just started my research into what it will take to provide this so I'm a 
little behind on it, but I'm definately interested in all opinions and 
options.

Thanks!



- Original Message - 
From: "Matt Liotta" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
To: "WISPA General List" 
Sent: Monday, March 06, 2006 12:09 PM
Subject: Re: [WISPA] VoIP/PBX Gateway appliance


> Primus/Lingo is calling every WISP in the country trying to sign them up 
> for a very CommPartners like deal. All of these VoIP providers are using 
> the same shitty model that will be worthless in 2 years time. There is no 
> money to be made in VoIP short-term unless you operate your own equipment. 
> Long-term, there is no money to be made in VoIP at all. VoIP will soon be 
> a loss leader; plan for it or do get into the VoIP business.
>
> BTW, Primus makes all their money on international termination. The 
> domestic stuff is losing money hand over fist.
>
> -Matt
>
> John Scrivner wrote:
>
>> Primus tells me they are more than a VOIP company and that they do make 
>> money. They impressed me in my dealings with them. Can you share more 
>> about your information about Primus? I have a big interest in knowing 
>> anything I can about them right now.
>> Thanks,
>> Scriv
>>
>>
>> Peter R. wrote:
>>
>>> You haven't seen it yet, because Lingo is not profitable yet.
>>> Primus owns Lingo and Primus is basically an International VOIP company.
>>>
>>> Like so many VOIP Providers, they are still trying to figure out how to 
>>> make a profit.
>>>
>>> Delta3 (which is the backend for VZ's VoiceWing) made $9.1M in revenue 
>>> in 4Q05 and just $22k in income.
>>>
>>> Vonage has a customer acquisition cost that is 20 times their MRC.
>>>
>>> Regards,
>>>
>>> Peter
>>>
>>>
>>> Jonathan Schmidt wrote:
>>>
 I've been personally delighted with two years of Lingo giving me
 unlimited USA/Canada/EUROPE calling on 7 lines each for $19.95/month
 and an unusually rich set of features (like e-mailing me compressed WAV
 files of all incoming voicemails, etc.).
  Now, that's retail w/box and support.
  I've taken the box on trips and routed it through my laptop Ethernet 
 while
 the laptop is on a V.32 dialup and it works but sounds kind of like a 
 cell
 phone but having my local number with me in Europe and having unlimited
 free calls throughout Europe from Europe or Eastern Europe for ZERO
 additional cost is kinda cool.
  It's SIP but they keep promising a soft phone for the line, like 
 Vonaga, but
 haven't seen it yet.
  . . . j o n a t h a n
>>>
>>>
>>>
>
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Re: [WISPA] VoIP/PBX Gateway appliance

[KyWiFi LLC]

Hi Scriv,

We tried Lingo but could not get it to work reliably and
their voice quality was horrible when it did work. Their
support is overseas so expect to be treated like a number
instead of a person. LNP's are hard to get approved and
people calling our ported number often got a busy signal
when we were not on the phone. Even if we were on the
phone, they should not have received a busy signal because
we their service is suppose to include call waiting. During
the first week or two after our number was ported, some
callers received a "This number has been disconnected"
message when they called us. My advice is to turn and run.


Sincerely,
Shannon D. Denniston, Co-Founder
KyWiFi, LLC - Mt. Sterling, Kentucky
http://www.KyWiFi.com
http://www.KyWiFiVoice.com
Phone: 859.274.4033
A Broadband Phone & Internet Provider

==
Wireless Broadband, Local Calling and
UNLIMITED Long Distance only $69!

No Taxes, No Regulatory Fees, No Hassles

FREE Site Survey: http://www.KyWiFi.com
==


- Original Message - 
From: "John Scrivner" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
To: <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>; "WISPA General List" 
Sent: Monday, March 06, 2006 12:47 PM
Subject: Re: [WISPA] VoIP/PBX Gateway appliance


Primus tells me they are more than a VOIP company and that they do make 
money. They impressed me in my dealings with them. Can you share more 
about your information about Primus? I have a big interest in knowing 
anything I can about them right now.
Thanks,
Scriv


Peter R. wrote:

> You haven't seen it yet, because Lingo is not profitable yet.
> Primus owns Lingo and Primus is basically an International VOIP company.
>
> Like so many VOIP Providers, they are still trying to figure out how 
> to make a profit.
>
> Delta3 (which is the backend for VZ's VoiceWing) made $9.1M in revenue 
> in 4Q05 and just $22k in income.
>
> Vonage has a customer acquisition cost that is 20 times their MRC.
>
> Regards,
>
> Peter
>
>
> Jonathan Schmidt wrote:
>
>> I've been personally delighted with two years of Lingo giving me
>> unlimited USA/Canada/EUROPE calling on 7 lines each for $19.95/month
>> and an unusually rich set of features (like e-mailing me compressed WAV
>> files of all incoming voicemails, etc.).
>>  
>> Now, that's retail w/box and support.
>>  
>> I've taken the box on trips and routed it through my laptop Ethernet 
>> while
>> the laptop is on a V.32 dialup and it works but sounds kind of like a 
>> cell
>> phone but having my local number with me in Europe and having unlimited
>> free calls throughout Europe from Europe or Eastern Europe for ZERO
>> additional cost is kinda cool.
>>  
>> It's SIP but they keep promising a soft phone for the line, like 
>> Vonaga, but
>> haven't seen it yet.
>>  
>> . . . j o n a t h a n
>
>
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RE: [WISPA] How is this for a wireless description?

[Victoria]

Ha, not fair!  
We lit up our hot spot on Saturday, I designed the web site on Sunday and I
am selling today! :-) 
Starting a WISP is a lot of work ;-)

Victoria Proffer
www.StLouisBroadBand.com
314-974-5600


-Original Message-
From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] On
Behalf Of Marlon K. Schafer (509) 982-2181
Sent: Monday, March 06, 2006 12:04 PM
To: [EMAIL PROTECTED]; WISPA General List
Subject: Re: [WISPA] How is this for a wireless discription?

Looks good!

Now will you PLEASE stop screwing with web sites and go sell!

Marlon
(509) 982-2181   Equipment sales
(408) 907-6910 (Vonage)Consulting services
42846865 (icq)And I run my own wisp!
64.146.146.12 (net meeting)
www.odessaoffice.com/wireless
www.odessaoffice.com/marlon/cam



- Original Message -
From: "Victoria" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
To: "'WISPA General List'" 
Sent: Sunday, March 05, 2006 3:35 PM
Subject: [WISPA] How is this for a wireless discription?


> 
> 
> http://www.stlbroadband.com/How_It_Works.htm
> 
> Victoria Proffer
> www.StLouisBroadBand.com
> 314-974-5600
> 
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Re: [WISPA] VoIP

[Peter R.]

I have to agree with Matt. Selling Host PBX service is probably the only 
part left of VOIP that allow for a margin.


Peter


Matt Liotta wrote:

Primus/Lingo is calling every WISP in the country trying to sign them 
up for a very CommPartners like deal. All of these VoIP providers are 
using the same shitty model that will be worthless in 2 years time. 
There is no money to be made in VoIP short-term unless you operate 
your own equipment. Long-term, there is no money to be made in VoIP at 
all. VoIP will soon be a loss leader; plan for it or do get into the 
VoIP business.


BTW, Primus makes all their money on international termination. The 
domestic stuff is losing money hand over fist.


-Matt


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Re: [WISPA] VoIP/PBX Gateway appliance

[Matt Liotta]

My understanding is that many rural markets can be accessed using tandem 
PRIs. For example, using tandems in GA I can get access numbers for the 
entire state with only 10 actual circuits. Though, each circuit can only 
handle 23 incoming calls at once, so to support a large user base it 
would require many more circuits. But, just get started providing 
service to the entire state all I need is 10 circuits. Therefore, it 
will only be a matter of time before even rural areas have access 
numbers from VoIP providers.


In the mean time, by all means get a PRI from a local CLEC and start 
selling VoIP. If you get good enough at it, you can even start selling 
routes to other VoIP providers; that is our plan for rural GA.


-Matt

Jason Hensley wrote:

What about for those of us in small markets where the large VoIP 
players don't have access numbers?  What is your opinion on them 
coming here?  For instance, I'm in an area where the closest VoIP 
provider's number is 100 miles away with probably 25 or so NXX's that 
cannot call it locally.  Not a feasible decision for a local business 
as any phone calls to them will be long distance for local residents.  
Is there a case for or against partnering / working with a CLEC who 
has the ability to be WAY more flexible than the ILEC's, have them 
drop you DS1's / PRI's / whatever and work with them on getting local 
VoIP numbers for the folks in these areas?  I'm getting more and more 
people who want wireless Internet SOLELY because they do not have a 
home phone line other than their cell phone.  Do you see that as what 
we're headed to?  I do and I don't personally.  I think there will be 
a market of some kind for that, but I feel as well that for at least 
the foreseeable future (say 10 years or so), markets such as mine will 
not be doing away with wireline.  Too many challenges for both 
cellular providers, and WISP's due to terrain and sparseness of 
population.


I guess I'm having a hard time understanding why it cannot be 
profitable, at least on some level.





- Original Message - From: "Matt Liotta" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
To: "WISPA General List" 
Sent: Monday, March 06, 2006 12:40 PM
Subject: Re: [WISPA] VoIP/PBX Gateway appliance


Quite simply, VoIP will be free in the long run. Use it to sell 
bandwidth or what have you, but don't plan on profiting from it 
directly outside of specific niches such as call centers. We have 
provisioned hundreds of phone numbers and sold hundreds of phone 
lines, but our actual monthly cost for providing the service outside 
of equipment, bandwidth, and other overhead is around $200 per month. 
With that kind of expense we could give away service as a loss leader 
and not even notice it. Do you think we are alone?


We own the network, so VoIP is easy and cheap to provide our 
customers. This is not the case for the Vonages of the world.


-Matt

Jason Hensley wrote:

For someone like me who is currently looking at getting into the 
VoIP business, why is it that you feel VoIP will be a long-term 
loser?  I have just started my research into what it will take to 
provide this so I'm a little behind on it, but I'm definately 
interested in all opinions and options.


Thanks!



- Original Message - From: "Matt Liotta" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
To: "WISPA General List" 
Sent: Monday, March 06, 2006 12:09 PM
Subject: Re: [WISPA] VoIP/PBX Gateway appliance


Primus/Lingo is calling every WISP in the country trying to sign 
them up for a very CommPartners like deal. All of these VoIP 
providers are using the same shitty model that will be worthless in 
2 years time. There is no money to be made in VoIP short-term 
unless you operate your own equipment. Long-term, there is no money 
to be made in VoIP at all. VoIP will soon be a loss leader; plan 
for it or do get into the VoIP business.


BTW, Primus makes all their money on international termination. The 
domestic stuff is losing money hand over fist.


-Matt

John Scrivner wrote:

Primus tells me they are more than a VOIP company and that they do 
make money. They impressed me in my dealings with them. Can you 
share more about your information about Primus? I have a big 
interest in knowing anything I can about them right now.

Thanks,
Scriv


Peter R. wrote:


You haven't seen it yet, because Lingo is not profitable yet.
Primus owns Lingo and Primus is basically an International VOIP 
company.


Like so many VOIP Providers, they are still trying to figure out 
how to make a profit.


Delta3 (which is the backend for VZ's VoiceWing) made $9.1M in 
revenue in 4Q05 and just $22k in income.


Vonage has a customer acquisition cost that is 20 times their MRC.

Regards,

Peter


Jonathan Schmidt wrote:


I've been personally delighted with two years of Lingo giving me
unlimited USA/Canada/EUROPE calling on 7 lines each for 
$19.95/month
and an unusually rich set of features (like e-mailing me 
compressed WAV

files of all incoming voicemails, etc.).
 Now, that's 

Re: [WISPA] VoIP/PBX Gateway appliance

[Matt Liotta]

In our case, the most expense part of our VoIP deployment was getting 
our network ready to support it correctly. Whether the backend is 
outsourced doesn't affect the requirement to support end-to-end QoS. 
Therefore, I believe that you should either get in all the way or not at 
all.


The worst thing in the world you could do is bundle a 3rd party service 
that doesn't work very well and then because it is outsourced not be 
able to fix it.


-Matt

Tom DeReggi wrote:


MAtt,

I agree with you on most of your comments.
However, there is more to it.

Offering VOIP is not just about making money on it. Its about 
controlling who has access to your subscribers, if one does not have 
the time to be a VOIP provider themselves.
Bundling is a necessarily part of succeeding going  in to the future.  
Its more important that ever to outsource VOIP, if it will likely 
never be a profitable business. let someone else loose the money, and 
reap the rewards of bundling today.  Give the companies access to your 
clients that will be the lowest threat.


What benefit is it to allow, Vonage, ATT, Comcast, Verizon access to 
your client base, by allowing your subscribers to choose their VOIP 
options?


So Matt, I agree if the ISP/WISP intends to make significant money on 
the service, build your own.  But don't knock the Primus/CommPartner 
models, they have their purpose and will enable many WISPs/ISPs to 
have an option to offer, that don;t have the resources to build their 
own.


What this industry needs to recognize is that there are industry 
trends that are going to gain market share, because consumers demand 
them and are willing to buy. They don't care who makes or looses 
money, they jsut know how to compare retail price they pay to the 
quality the receive.  JUst like Muni broadband, its a reality of 
something that is going to happen.  So my point is, pick the companies 
that you want to help succeed, and which ones you want to help NOT 
succeed, because some of them ARE going to succeed.


Tom DeReggi
RapidDSL & Wireless, Inc
IntAirNet- Fixed Wireless Broadband


- Original Message - From: "Matt Liotta" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
To: "WISPA General List" 
Sent: Monday, March 06, 2006 1:09 PM
Subject: Re: [WISPA] VoIP/PBX Gateway appliance


Primus/Lingo is calling every WISP in the country trying to sign them 
up for a very CommPartners like deal. All of these VoIP providers are 
using the same shitty model that will be worthless in 2 years time. 
There is no money to be made in VoIP short-term unless you operate 
your own equipment. Long-term, there is no money to be made in VoIP 
at all. VoIP will soon be a loss leader; plan for it or do get into 
the VoIP business.


BTW, Primus makes all their money on international termination. The 
domestic stuff is losing money hand over fist.


-Matt

John Scrivner wrote:

Primus tells me they are more than a VOIP company and that they do 
make money. They impressed me in my dealings with them. Can you 
share more about your information about Primus? I have a big 
interest in knowing anything I can about them right now.

Thanks,
Scriv


Peter R. wrote:


You haven't seen it yet, because Lingo is not profitable yet.
Primus owns Lingo and Primus is basically an International VOIP 
company.


Like so many VOIP Providers, they are still trying to figure out 
how to make a profit.


Delta3 (which is the backend for VZ's VoiceWing) made $9.1M in 
revenue in 4Q05 and just $22k in income.


Vonage has a customer acquisition cost that is 20 times their MRC.

Regards,

Peter


Jonathan Schmidt wrote:


I've been personally delighted with two years of Lingo giving me
unlimited USA/Canada/EUROPE calling on 7 lines each for $19.95/month
and an unusually rich set of features (like e-mailing me 
compressed WAV

files of all incoming voicemails, etc.).
 Now, that's retail w/box and support.
 I've taken the box on trips and routed it through my laptop 
Ethernet while
the laptop is on a V.32 dialup and it works but sounds kind of 
like a cell
phone but having my local number with me in Europe and having 
unlimited

free calls throughout Europe from Europe or Eastern Europe for ZERO
additional cost is kinda cool.
 It's SIP but they keep promising a soft phone for the line, like 
Vonaga, but

haven't seen it yet.
 . . . j o n a t h a n







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Re: [WISPA] VoIP/PBX Gateway appliance

[Peter R.]

Issues such as LNP, E-911, 411, CALEA, yellow page listings, and taxes 
will take a bite out of any profit.

Even termination, origination and DIDs cost money.

Let's say you get a 2 way CLEC PRI for $615 + DIDs at $10 per 20.
And let's say the CLEC will do your LNP and 911.
$615 divided by 23 ports is $26.75 per line (not including taxes nad fees).
You can over-subscribe about 5:1 for Resi, so your port cost is $5.35 + 
$5 in fees say = $10.
LD Termination varies: switched is $0.03; Ded LD is $0.17 plus the T1 
line; VoIP LD Termination is $0.018 from Primus.

Average LD is 300 minutes = $5.40
That's $15 of cost without factoring in labor, admin, etc.
Someone like delta3 has plans for $15.99.

Plus now instead of bursty traffic you have steady streams, so please 
engineer your networks accordingly.

Next, you have the CPE and install costs.
Plus bad debt on International calls as well as on the local dial-tone.
In addition, Billing costs are about $1.50.

Mind you , this was just one quick case.

Regards,

Peter


Jason Hensley wrote:

For someone like me who is currently looking at getting into the VoIP 
business, why is it that you feel VoIP will be a long-term loser?  I 
have just started my research into what it will take to provide this 
so I'm a little behind on it, but I'm definately interested in all 
opinions and options.


Thanks!


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Re: [WISPA] VoIP/PBX Gateway appliance

[Jason Hensley]

And I think along this same line, partnering with, and basing your business 
plan on, a company that may not be here in 2-3 years is risky at best. 
Gotta have a backup plan of some kind if you're doing this of course.  This 
is why I have worked hard at building my own "facilities" in all aspects of 
things that I possibly can.





- Original Message - 
From: "Matt Liotta" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>

To: "WISPA General List" 
Sent: Monday, March 06, 2006 1:21 PM
Subject: Re: [WISPA] VoIP/PBX Gateway appliance


In our case, the most expense part of our VoIP deployment was getting our 
network ready to support it correctly. Whether the backend is outsourced 
doesn't affect the requirement to support end-to-end QoS. Therefore, I 
believe that you should either get in all the way or not at all.


The worst thing in the world you could do is bundle a 3rd party service 
that doesn't work very well and then because it is outsourced not be able 
to fix it.


-Matt

Tom DeReggi wrote:


MAtt,

I agree with you on most of your comments.
However, there is more to it.

Offering VOIP is not just about making money on it. Its about controlling 
who has access to your subscribers, if one does not have the time to be a 
VOIP provider themselves.
Bundling is a necessarily part of succeeding going  in to the future. 
Its more important that ever to outsource VOIP, if it will likely never 
be a profitable business. let someone else loose the money, and reap the 
rewards of bundling today.  Give the companies access to your clients 
that will be the lowest threat.


What benefit is it to allow, Vonage, ATT, Comcast, Verizon access to your 
client base, by allowing your subscribers to choose their VOIP options?


So Matt, I agree if the ISP/WISP intends to make significant money on the 
service, build your own.  But don't knock the Primus/CommPartner models, 
they have their purpose and will enable many WISPs/ISPs to have an option 
to offer, that don;t have the resources to build their own.


What this industry needs to recognize is that there are industry trends 
that are going to gain market share, because consumers demand them and 
are willing to buy. They don't care who makes or looses money, they jsut 
know how to compare retail price they pay to the quality the receive. 
JUst like Muni broadband, its a reality of something that is going to 
happen.  So my point is, pick the companies that you want to help 
succeed, and which ones you want to help NOT succeed, because some of 
them ARE going to succeed.


Tom DeReggi
RapidDSL & Wireless, Inc
IntAirNet- Fixed Wireless Broadband


- Original Message - From: "Matt Liotta" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
To: "WISPA General List" 
Sent: Monday, March 06, 2006 1:09 PM
Subject: Re: [WISPA] VoIP/PBX Gateway appliance


Primus/Lingo is calling every WISP in the country trying to sign them up 
for a very CommPartners like deal. All of these VoIP providers are using 
the same shitty model that will be worthless in 2 years time. There is 
no money to be made in VoIP short-term unless you operate your own 
equipment. Long-term, there is no money to be made in VoIP at all. VoIP 
will soon be a loss leader; plan for it or do get into the VoIP 
business.


BTW, Primus makes all their money on international termination. The 
domestic stuff is losing money hand over fist.


-Matt

John Scrivner wrote:

Primus tells me they are more than a VOIP company and that they do make 
money. They impressed me in my dealings with them. Can you share more 
about your information about Primus? I have a big interest in knowing 
anything I can about them right now.

Thanks,
Scriv


Peter R. wrote:


You haven't seen it yet, because Lingo is not profitable yet.
Primus owns Lingo and Primus is basically an International VOIP 
company.


Like so many VOIP Providers, they are still trying to figure out how 
to make a profit.


Delta3 (which is the backend for VZ's VoiceWing) made $9.1M in revenue 
in 4Q05 and just $22k in income.


Vonage has a customer acquisition cost that is 20 times their MRC.

Regards,

Peter


Jonathan Schmidt wrote:


I've been personally delighted with two years of Lingo giving me
unlimited USA/Canada/EUROPE calling on 7 lines each for $19.95/month
and an unusually rich set of features (like e-mailing me compressed 
WAV

files of all incoming voicemails, etc.).
 Now, that's retail w/box and support.
 I've taken the box on trips and routed it through my laptop Ethernet 
while
the laptop is on a V.32 dialup and it works but sounds kind of like a 
cell
phone but having my local number with me in Europe and having 
unlimited

free calls throughout Europe from Europe or Eastern Europe for ZERO
additional cost is kinda cool.
 It's SIP but they keep promising a soft phone for the line, like 
Vonaga, but

haven't seen it yet.
 . . . j o n a t h a n







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Re: [WISPA] VoIP/PBX Gateway appliance

[Peter R.]

Because Vonage et al, sell Resi VOIP cheaper than TDM Voice.
Why? Easier to market. Easier to take orders (notice I did not say sell?)
But termination will be going up (already seeing rising costs for 
Dedicated LD).

E-911 is not cheap (nor is it nationally available).

You can try to work with a friendly CLEC (or become one).
But Voice is way different from Data.
One bad 911 and you are being sued and possibly jailed.
Wouldn't you rather offer services that aren't competing against the 
growing monster?

You would be better off selling cellular for a residual than selling VOIP.

Vonage was going to IPO last year for $660M; this year they are looking 
for $220M


In 1Q05:
"Vonage Holdings Corp. Founded in 2001, the Edison (N.J.) provider of 
Internet phone service has raised $210 million and last year racked up 
about $100 million in revenue. It has spent enough on marketing in a bid 
to make itself a household name, and several VCs say it will go public 
this year or next. But critics complain that while its ads attract new 
customers, it doesn't retain as many as it should."


"Om says Vonage IPO. I don't think they can wait. Reports are their 
growth is slowing, that costs are rising and that founder Jeffrey Citron 
has a bundle of his own cash in the venture."


In  2006: /"The street writes: Vonage Holdings, moved to become the 
first major Internet telephony player to go public by filing Wednesday 
to raise up to $250 million via an initial offering of stock and named a 
Tyco International executive as CEO. Our revenues were $18.7million in 
2003, $79.7million in 2004, and $174.0 million for the nine months ended 
Sept. 30, 2005," the company's prospectus says."While our revenues have 
grown rapidly, we have experienced increasing net losses, primarily 
driven by our increase in marketing expenses. From the period of 
inception through Sept.30, 2005, our cumulative net loss was $310 
million. Our net loss for the nine months ended Sept.30, 2005, was 
$189.6million. During the same nine-month period, our marketing expenses 
were $176.3million."/




Jason Hensley wrote:

What about for those of us in small markets where the large VoIP 
players don't have access numbers?  What is your opinion on them 
coming here?  For instance, I'm in an area where the closest VoIP 
provider's number is 100 miles away with probably 25 or so NXX's that 
cannot call it locally.  Not a feasible decision for a local business 
as any phone calls to them will be long distance for local residents.  
Is there a case for or against partnering / working with a CLEC who 
has the ability to be WAY more flexible than the ILEC's, have them 
drop you DS1's / PRI's / whatever and work with them on getting local 
VoIP numbers for the folks in these areas?  I'm getting more and more 
people who want wireless Internet SOLELY because they do not have a 
home phone line other than their cell phone.  Do you see that as what 
we're headed to?  I do and I don't personally.  I think there will be 
a market of some kind for that, but I feel as well that for at least 
the foreseeable future (say 10 years or so), markets such as mine will 
not be doing away with wireline.  Too many challenges for both 
cellular providers, and WISP's due to terrain and sparseness of 
population.


I guess I'm having a hard time understanding why it cannot be 
profitable, at least on some level.


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Re: [WISPA] VoIP/PBX Gateway appliance

[Mac Dearman]

I agree with that bit of advice whole heartedly Matt!

 We are in the process of setting up our own VoIP solution as we speak. I 
think that by the time that 100 of us WISPs get into our own VoIP offerings 
we can allow access from the other WISPs PRI's...etc for PSTN access to 
limit the amount of LD charges if their is availble access from a fellow 
WISP...etc


I think everyone of us need to be in our own VoIP business!! I have even 
given thought to a Coop kind of deal, but I need to have some more beer and 
thoughts on that :-)



Mac Dearman
Maximum Access, LLC.
Authorized Barracuda Reseller
MikroTik RouterOS Certified
www.inetsouth.com
www.mac-tel.us
www.RadioResponse.org (Katrina Relief)
Rayville, La.
318.728.8600
318.303.4228
318.303.4229





- Original Message - 
From: "Matt Liotta" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>

To: "WISPA General List" 
Sent: Monday, March 06, 2006 1:21 PM
Subject: Re: [WISPA] VoIP/PBX Gateway appliance


In our case, the most expense part of our VoIP deployment was getting our 
network ready to support it correctly. Whether the backend is outsourced 
doesn't affect the requirement to support end-to-end QoS. Therefore, I 
believe that you should either get in all the way or not at all.


The worst thing in the world you could do is bundle a 3rd party service 
that doesn't work very well and then because it is outsourced not be able 
to fix it.


-Matt

Tom DeReggi wrote:


MAtt,

I agree with you on most of your comments.
However, there is more to it.

Offering VOIP is not just about making money on it. Its about controlling 
who has access to your subscribers, if one does not have the time to be a 
VOIP provider themselves.
Bundling is a necessarily part of succeeding going  in to the future. 
Its more important that ever to outsource VOIP, if it will likely never 
be a profitable business. let someone else loose the money, and reap the 
rewards of bundling today.  Give the companies access to your clients 
that will be the lowest threat.


What benefit is it to allow, Vonage, ATT, Comcast, Verizon access to your 
client base, by allowing your subscribers to choose their VOIP options?


So Matt, I agree if the ISP/WISP intends to make significant money on the 
service, build your own.  But don't knock the Primus/CommPartner models, 
they have their purpose and will enable many WISPs/ISPs to have an option 
to offer, that don;t have the resources to build their own.


What this industry needs to recognize is that there are industry trends 
that are going to gain market share, because consumers demand them and 
are willing to buy. They don't care who makes or looses money, they jsut 
know how to compare retail price they pay to the quality the receive. 
JUst like Muni broadband, its a reality of something that is going to 
happen.  So my point is, pick the companies that you want to help 
succeed, and which ones you want to help NOT succeed, because some of 
them ARE going to succeed.


Tom DeReggi
RapidDSL & Wireless, Inc
IntAirNet- Fixed Wireless Broadband


- Original Message - From: "Matt Liotta" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
To: "WISPA General List" 
Sent: Monday, March 06, 2006 1:09 PM
Subject: Re: [WISPA] VoIP/PBX Gateway appliance


Primus/Lingo is calling every WISP in the country trying to sign them up 
for a very CommPartners like deal. All of these VoIP providers are using 
the same shitty model that will be worthless in 2 years time. There is 
no money to be made in VoIP short-term unless you operate your own 
equipment. Long-term, there is no money to be made in VoIP at all. VoIP 
will soon be a loss leader; plan for it or do get into the VoIP 
business.


BTW, Primus makes all their money on international termination. The 
domestic stuff is losing money hand over fist.


-Matt

John Scrivner wrote:

Primus tells me they are more than a VOIP company and that they do make 
money. They impressed me in my dealings with them. Can you share more 
about your information about Primus? I have a big interest in knowing 
anything I can about them right now.

Thanks,
Scriv


Peter R. wrote:


You haven't seen it yet, because Lingo is not profitable yet.
Primus owns Lingo and Primus is basically an International VOIP 
company.


Like so many VOIP Providers, they are still trying to figure out how 
to make a profit.


Delta3 (which is the backend for VZ's VoiceWing) made $9.1M in revenue 
in 4Q05 and just $22k in income.


Vonage has a customer acquisition cost that is 20 times their MRC.

Regards,

Peter


Jonathan Schmidt wrote:


I've been personally delighted with two years of Lingo giving me
unlimited USA/Canada/EUROPE calling on 7 lines each for $19.95/month
and an unusually rich set of features (like e-mailing me compressed 
WAV

files of all incoming voicemails, etc.).
 Now, that's retail w/box and support.
 I've taken the box on trips and routed it through my laptop Ethernet 
while
the laptop is on a V.32 dialup and it works but sounds kind of like a 
cell
phone but havi

Re: [WISPA] VoIP/PBX Gateway appliance

[Jason Hensley]

I, for one, appreciate all of the comments.  This is what I'm looking for - 
the good, bad, and ugly, to figure out whether I even want to dive into this 
market.




- Original Message - 
From: "Peter R." <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>

To: "WISPA General List" 
Sent: Monday, March 06, 2006 1:48 PM
Subject: Re: [WISPA] VoIP/PBX Gateway appliance



Because Vonage et al, sell Resi VOIP cheaper than TDM Voice.
Why? Easier to market. Easier to take orders (notice I did not say sell?)
But termination will be going up (already seeing rising costs for 
Dedicated LD).

E-911 is not cheap (nor is it nationally available).

You can try to work with a friendly CLEC (or become one).
But Voice is way different from Data.
One bad 911 and you are being sued and possibly jailed.
Wouldn't you rather offer services that aren't competing against the 
growing monster?

You would be better off selling cellular for a residual than selling VOIP.

Vonage was going to IPO last year for $660M; this year they are looking 
for $220M


In 1Q05:
"Vonage Holdings Corp. Founded in 2001, the Edison (N.J.) provider of 
Internet phone service has raised $210 million and last year racked up 
about $100 million in revenue. It has spent enough on marketing in a bid 
to make itself a household name, and several VCs say it will go public 
this year or next. But critics complain that while its ads attract new 
customers, it doesn't retain as many as it should."


"Om says Vonage IPO. I don't think they can wait. Reports are their growth 
is slowing, that costs are rising and that founder Jeffrey Citron has a 
bundle of his own cash in the venture."


In  2006: /"The street writes: Vonage Holdings, moved to become the first 
major Internet telephony player to go public by filing Wednesday to raise 
up to $250 million via an initial offering of stock and named a Tyco 
International executive as CEO. Our revenues were $18.7million in 2003, 
$79.7million in 2004, and $174.0 million for the nine months ended Sept. 
30, 2005," the company's prospectus says."While our revenues have grown 
rapidly, we have experienced increasing net losses, primarily driven by 
our increase in marketing expenses. From the period of inception through 
Sept.30, 2005, our cumulative net loss was $310 million. Our net loss for 
the nine months ended Sept.30, 2005, was $189.6million. During the same 
nine-month period, our marketing expenses were $176.3million."/




Jason Hensley wrote:

What about for those of us in small markets where the large VoIP players 
don't have access numbers?  What is your opinion on them coming here? 
For instance, I'm in an area where the closest VoIP provider's number is 
100 miles away with probably 25 or so NXX's that cannot call it locally. 
Not a feasible decision for a local business as any phone calls to them 
will be long distance for local residents.  Is there a case for or 
against partnering / working with a CLEC who has the ability to be WAY 
more flexible than the ILEC's, have them drop you DS1's / PRI's / 
whatever and work with them on getting local VoIP numbers for the folks 
in these areas?  I'm getting more and more people who want wireless 
Internet SOLELY because they do not have a home phone line other than 
their cell phone.  Do you see that as what we're headed to?  I do and I 
don't personally.  I think there will be a market of some kind for that, 
but I feel as well that for at least the foreseeable future (say 10 years 
or so), markets such as mine will not be doing away with wireline.  Too 
many challenges for both cellular providers, and WISP's due to terrain 
and sparseness of population.


I guess I'm having a hard time understanding why it cannot be profitable, 
at least on some level.


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Re: [WISPA] VoIP/PBX Gateway appliance

[Matt Liotta]

E-911 is THE issue to solve for everyone. No matter who you get E-911 
from, the local ILEC is actually providing the service using outdated 
and expensive equipment. Until that changes things won't get better.


-Matt

Peter R. wrote:


Because Vonage et al, sell Resi VOIP cheaper than TDM Voice.
Why? Easier to market. Easier to take orders (notice I did not say sell?)
But termination will be going up (already seeing rising costs for 
Dedicated LD).

E-911 is not cheap (nor is it nationally available).

You can try to work with a friendly CLEC (or become one).
But Voice is way different from Data.
One bad 911 and you are being sued and possibly jailed.
Wouldn't you rather offer services that aren't competing against the 
growing monster?
You would be better off selling cellular for a residual than selling 
VOIP.


Vonage was going to IPO last year for $660M; this year they are 
looking for $220M


In 1Q05:
"Vonage Holdings Corp. Founded in 2001, the Edison (N.J.) provider of 
Internet phone service has raised $210 million and last year racked up 
about $100 million in revenue. It has spent enough on marketing in a 
bid to make itself a household name, and several VCs say it will go 
public this year or next. But critics complain that while its ads 
attract new customers, it doesn't retain as many as it should."


"Om says Vonage IPO. I don't think they can wait. Reports are their 
growth is slowing, that costs are rising and that founder Jeffrey 
Citron has a bundle of his own cash in the venture."


In  2006: /"The street writes: Vonage Holdings, moved to become the 
first major Internet telephony player to go public by filing Wednesday 
to raise up to $250 million via an initial offering of stock and named 
a Tyco International executive as CEO. Our revenues were $18.7million 
in 2003, $79.7million in 2004, and $174.0 million for the nine months 
ended Sept. 30, 2005," the company's prospectus says."While our 
revenues have grown rapidly, we have experienced increasing net 
losses, primarily driven by our increase in marketing expenses. From 
the period of inception through Sept.30, 2005, our cumulative net loss 
was $310 million. Our net loss for the nine months ended Sept.30, 
2005, was $189.6million. During the same nine-month period, our 
marketing expenses were $176.3million."/




Jason Hensley wrote:

What about for those of us in small markets where the large VoIP 
players don't have access numbers?  What is your opinion on them 
coming here?  For instance, I'm in an area where the closest VoIP 
provider's number is 100 miles away with probably 25 or so NXX's that 
cannot call it locally.  Not a feasible decision for a local business 
as any phone calls to them will be long distance for local 
residents.  Is there a case for or against partnering / working with 
a CLEC who has the ability to be WAY more flexible than the ILEC's, 
have them drop you DS1's / PRI's / whatever and work with them on 
getting local VoIP numbers for the folks in these areas?  I'm getting 
more and more people who want wireless Internet SOLELY because they 
do not have a home phone line other than their cell phone.  Do you 
see that as what we're headed to?  I do and I don't personally.  I 
think there will be a market of some kind for that, but I feel as 
well that for at least the foreseeable future (say 10 years or so), 
markets such as mine will not be doing away with wireline.  Too many 
challenges for both cellular providers, and WISP's due to terrain and 
sparseness of population.


I guess I'm having a hard time understanding why it cannot be 
profitable, at least on some level.





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Re: [WISPA] VoIP Charges and other

[Peter R.]

That whole FCC E-911 thing was to save the PSTN. Cell phones have been 
around 10 years without 911.


The other VOIP concern are the Virtual NXX cases at the FCC.
If SBC wins it's virtual NXX case against Valor (?? maybe another 
company), the charges for DID will go through the roof.


Virtual NXX is how you are able to have a number outside your rate center.

Peter

Brian Webster wrote:


I might be inclined to say it may be a loser in the future. I just read an 
article in a Telco trade magazine that announced a software package that can 
sniff SIP packets and give real time information for billing based on an IBM 
server. In that same article they talked about how they could limit or stop any 
SIP traffic from any provider if they wanted, but the thing that caught my eye 
was how they mentioned they could tell things like termination points and 
delivery charges. This is just like the current Telco model. If they start 
pushing VOIP to a typical Telco model (and they should from their point of view 
to level the playing field and raise the cost of doing VOIP) then the 
regulatory and call delivery costs will go up and the cost benefit starts to go 
down. It is an interesting point of view and worth keeping an eye on. The way 
they were able to shove the 911 thing down the VOIP operators throats in such 
short order makes me wonder if they won't do the same thing with termination 
charges based on IP and packets like they do with copper now.



Thank You,
Brian Webster
www.wirelessmapping.com  
 



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Re: [WISPA] VoIP/PBX Gateway appliance

[Peter R.]

You might have just had a bad experience.
I beta tested the Primus Business VOIP product in 2004 and my only 
complaint was that after talking for 75 minutes on one call, it would 
die. And the Cisco ATA needed to be rebooted a lot.


Peter

KyWiFi LLC wrote:


Hi Scriv,

We tried Lingo but could not get it to work reliably and
their voice quality was horrible when it did work. Their
support is overseas so expect to be treated like a number
instead of a person. LNP's are hard to get approved and
people calling our ported number often got a busy signal
when we were not on the phone. Even if we were on the
phone, they should not have received a busy signal because
we their service is suppose to include call waiting. During
the first week or two after our number was ported, some
callers received a "This number has been disconnected"
message when they called us. My advice is to turn and run.


Sincerely,
Shannon D. Denniston, Co-Founder
KyWiFi, LLC - Mt. Sterling, Kentucky
http://www.KyWiFi.com
http://www.KyWiFiVoice.com
Phone: 859.274.4033
A Broadband Phone & Internet Provider
 


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Re: [WISPA] VoIP/PBX Gateway appliance

[Matt Liotta]

The notion of avoiding toll costs by working with other WISPs sounds 
great in theory. From our standpoint, it would cost us more to connect 
to a single WISP than to pay our entire long distance bill. We pay 
between $0.002 to $0.005 per minute on average for domestic long distance.


-Matt

Mac Dearman wrote:


I agree with that bit of advice whole heartedly Matt!

 We are in the process of setting up our own VoIP solution as we 
speak. I think that by the time that 100 of us WISPs get into our own 
VoIP offerings we can allow access from the other WISPs PRI's...etc 
for PSTN access to limit the amount of LD charges if their is availble 
access from a fellow WISP...etc


I think everyone of us need to be in our own VoIP business!! I have 
even given thought to a Coop kind of deal, but I need to have some 
more beer and thoughts on that :-)



Mac Dearman
Maximum Access, LLC.
Authorized Barracuda Reseller
MikroTik RouterOS Certified
www.inetsouth.com
www.mac-tel.us
www.RadioResponse.org (Katrina Relief)
Rayville, La.
318.728.8600
318.303.4228
318.303.4229





- Original Message - From: "Matt Liotta" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
To: "WISPA General List" 
Sent: Monday, March 06, 2006 1:21 PM
Subject: Re: [WISPA] VoIP/PBX Gateway appliance


In our case, the most expense part of our VoIP deployment was getting 
our network ready to support it correctly. Whether the backend is 
outsourced doesn't affect the requirement to support end-to-end QoS. 
Therefore, I believe that you should either get in all the way or not 
at all.


The worst thing in the world you could do is bundle a 3rd party 
service that doesn't work very well and then because it is outsourced 
not be able to fix it.


-Matt

Tom DeReggi wrote:


MAtt,

I agree with you on most of your comments.
However, there is more to it.

Offering VOIP is not just about making money on it. Its about 
controlling who has access to your subscribers, if one does not have 
the time to be a VOIP provider themselves.
Bundling is a necessarily part of succeeding going  in to the 
future. Its more important that ever to outsource VOIP, if it will 
likely never be a profitable business. let someone else loose the 
money, and reap the rewards of bundling today.  Give the companies 
access to your clients that will be the lowest threat.


What benefit is it to allow, Vonage, ATT, Comcast, Verizon access to 
your client base, by allowing your subscribers to choose their VOIP 
options?


So Matt, I agree if the ISP/WISP intends to make significant money 
on the service, build your own.  But don't knock the 
Primus/CommPartner models, they have their purpose and will enable 
many WISPs/ISPs to have an option to offer, that don;t have the 
resources to build their own.


What this industry needs to recognize is that there are industry 
trends that are going to gain market share, because consumers demand 
them and are willing to buy. They don't care who makes or looses 
money, they jsut know how to compare retail price they pay to the 
quality the receive. JUst like Muni broadband, its a reality of 
something that is going to happen.  So my point is, pick the 
companies that you want to help succeed, and which ones you want to 
help NOT succeed, because some of them ARE going to succeed.


Tom DeReggi
RapidDSL & Wireless, Inc
IntAirNet- Fixed Wireless Broadband


- Original Message - From: "Matt Liotta" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
To: "WISPA General List" 
Sent: Monday, March 06, 2006 1:09 PM
Subject: Re: [WISPA] VoIP/PBX Gateway appliance


Primus/Lingo is calling every WISP in the country trying to sign 
them up for a very CommPartners like deal. All of these VoIP 
providers are using the same shitty model that will be worthless in 
2 years time. There is no money to be made in VoIP short-term 
unless you operate your own equipment. Long-term, there is no money 
to be made in VoIP at all. VoIP will soon be a loss leader; plan 
for it or do get into the VoIP business.


BTW, Primus makes all their money on international termination. The 
domestic stuff is losing money hand over fist.


-Matt

John Scrivner wrote:

Primus tells me they are more than a VOIP company and that they do 
make money. They impressed me in my dealings with them. Can you 
share more about your information about Primus? I have a big 
interest in knowing anything I can about them right now.

Thanks,
Scriv


Peter R. wrote:


You haven't seen it yet, because Lingo is not profitable yet.
Primus owns Lingo and Primus is basically an International VOIP 
company.


Like so many VOIP Providers, they are still trying to figure out 
how to make a profit.


Delta3 (which is the backend for VZ's VoiceWing) made $9.1M in 
revenue in 4Q05 and just $22k in income.


Vonage has a customer acquisition cost that is 20 times their MRC.

Regards,

Peter


Jonathan Schmidt wrote:


I've been personally delighted with two years of Lingo giving me
unlimited USA/Canada/EUROPE calling on 7 lines each for 
$19.95/month
and a

Re: [WISPA] VoIP/PBX Gateway appliance

[Peter R.]

You're a CLEC, right?


Matt Liotta wrote:

The notion of avoiding toll costs by working with other WISPs sounds 
great in theory. From our standpoint, it would cost us more to connect 
to a single WISP than to pay our entire long distance bill. We pay 
between $0.002 to $0.005 per minute on average for domestic long 
distance.


-Matt


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RE: [WISPA] VoIP/PBX Gateway appliance

[Paul Hendry]

VoIP is an essential part of your offerings. We target business customers
and try to sell SDSL style services instead of ADSL style as it's just as
easy for us to deliver a symmetrical service then it is to deliver an
asymmetric service. The key to selling the symmetric service is by showing
the customer the applications available that would require upstream
bandwidth like supporting remote workers and of course VoIP. We don't make
profit from the VoIP directly but when you consider that SDSL is 4-6x more
expensive than ADSL you can make the profit up else where ;)

Cheers,

P.

-Original Message-
From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] On
Behalf Of Matt Liotta
Sent: 06 March 2006 20:00
To: WISPA General List
Subject: Re: [WISPA] VoIP/PBX Gateway appliance

The notion of avoiding toll costs by working with other WISPs sounds 
great in theory. From our standpoint, it would cost us more to connect 
to a single WISP than to pay our entire long distance bill. We pay 
between $0.002 to $0.005 per minute on average for domestic long distance.

-Matt

Mac Dearman wrote:

> I agree with that bit of advice whole heartedly Matt!
>
>  We are in the process of setting up our own VoIP solution as we 
> speak. I think that by the time that 100 of us WISPs get into our own 
> VoIP offerings we can allow access from the other WISPs PRI's...etc 
> for PSTN access to limit the amount of LD charges if their is availble 
> access from a fellow WISP...etc
>
> I think everyone of us need to be in our own VoIP business!! I have 
> even given thought to a Coop kind of deal, but I need to have some 
> more beer and thoughts on that :-)
>
>
> Mac Dearman
> Maximum Access, LLC.
> Authorized Barracuda Reseller
> MikroTik RouterOS Certified
> www.inetsouth.com
> www.mac-tel.us
> www.RadioResponse.org (Katrina Relief)
> Rayville, La.
> 318.728.8600
> 318.303.4228
> 318.303.4229
>
>
>
>
>
> - Original Message - From: "Matt Liotta" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
> To: "WISPA General List" 
> Sent: Monday, March 06, 2006 1:21 PM
> Subject: Re: [WISPA] VoIP/PBX Gateway appliance
>
>
>> In our case, the most expense part of our VoIP deployment was getting 
>> our network ready to support it correctly. Whether the backend is 
>> outsourced doesn't affect the requirement to support end-to-end QoS. 
>> Therefore, I believe that you should either get in all the way or not 
>> at all.
>>
>> The worst thing in the world you could do is bundle a 3rd party 
>> service that doesn't work very well and then because it is outsourced 
>> not be able to fix it.
>>
>> -Matt
>>
>> Tom DeReggi wrote:
>>
>>> MAtt,
>>>
>>> I agree with you on most of your comments.
>>> However, there is more to it.
>>>
>>> Offering VOIP is not just about making money on it. Its about 
>>> controlling who has access to your subscribers, if one does not have 
>>> the time to be a VOIP provider themselves.
>>> Bundling is a necessarily part of succeeding going  in to the 
>>> future. Its more important that ever to outsource VOIP, if it will 
>>> likely never be a profitable business. let someone else loose the 
>>> money, and reap the rewards of bundling today.  Give the companies 
>>> access to your clients that will be the lowest threat.
>>>
>>> What benefit is it to allow, Vonage, ATT, Comcast, Verizon access to 
>>> your client base, by allowing your subscribers to choose their VOIP 
>>> options?
>>>
>>> So Matt, I agree if the ISP/WISP intends to make significant money 
>>> on the service, build your own.  But don't knock the 
>>> Primus/CommPartner models, they have their purpose and will enable 
>>> many WISPs/ISPs to have an option to offer, that don;t have the 
>>> resources to build their own.
>>>
>>> What this industry needs to recognize is that there are industry 
>>> trends that are going to gain market share, because consumers demand 
>>> them and are willing to buy. They don't care who makes or looses 
>>> money, they jsut know how to compare retail price they pay to the 
>>> quality the receive. JUst like Muni broadband, its a reality of 
>>> something that is going to happen.  So my point is, pick the 
>>> companies that you want to help succeed, and which ones you want to 
>>> help NOT succeed, because some of them ARE going to succeed.
>>>
>>> Tom DeReggi
>>> RapidDSL & Wireless, Inc
>>> IntAirNet- Fixed Wireless Broadband
>>>
>>>
>>> - Original Message - From: "Matt Liotta" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
>>> To: "WISPA General List" 
>>> Sent: Monday, March 06, 2006 1:09 PM
>>> Subject: Re: [WISPA] VoIP/PBX Gateway appliance
>>>
>>>
 Primus/Lingo is calling every WISP in the country trying to sign 
 them up for a very CommPartners like deal. All of these VoIP 
 providers are using the same shitty model that will be worthless in 
 2 years time. There is no money to be made in VoIP short-term 
 unless you operate your own equipment. Long-term, there is no money 
 to be made in VoIP at all. VoIP will soon be a loss leader; pl

Re: [WISPA] VoIP/PBX Gateway appliance

[Matt Liotta]

Nope

-Matt

Peter R. wrote:


You're a CLEC, right?


Matt Liotta wrote:

The notion of avoiding toll costs by working with other WISPs sounds 
great in theory. From our standpoint, it would cost us more to 
connect to a single WISP than to pay our entire long distance bill. 
We pay between $0.002 to $0.005 per minute on average for domestic 
long distance.


-Matt





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Re: [WISPA] AT&T merging with BellSouth

[Tom DeReggi]

Yes but, Quest has a loyal customer base, which is substantially different 
in profile than the other Telco's client base.
Its sorta like Verizon buying MCI, MCI offered a complete diverse portfolio 
of target clent bases and Assets.
Consolidation also allows for the sharing of infrastructure or getting rid 
of infrastructure, to maximize rerturn.


Although I do not contradict that Quest has huge debt, and something not 
many would want to tackle going into a buyout, Quest could still be a 
valuable add-on depending on who the buyer is.


I believe MCI was a huge strategic advantage for Verizon to buy.  It was a 
strategic buy not a revenue buy. Value is not just based on revenue. I'd 
argue that Quest could offer significant strategic advantages.


Tom DeReggi
RapidDSL & Wireless, Inc
IntAirNet- Fixed Wireless Broadband


- Original Message - 
From: "Blake Bowers" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>

To: "WISPA General List" 
Sent: Monday, March 06, 2006 2:01 PM
Subject: Re: [WISPA] AT&T merging with BellSouth



Not likely.
Qwest has 14 billion in long term debt, Qwest is still losing money,
Qwest has NO wireless,
Qwest has a smaller customer base per square mile than
any player.

- Original Message - 
From: "George Rogato" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>

To: "WISPA General List" 
Sent: Monday, March 06, 2006 11:56 AM
Subject: Re: [WISPA] AT&T merging with BellSouth



Qwest is next.

We all know consolidation is going to continue.

So I went out and bought some Qwest  shares this am.

George




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Re: [WISPA] AT&T merging with BellSouth

[George Rogato]

There is only one  way for these companies to expand, buy market share.
Qwest has a big market in the west.
They just won't offer that much for Qwest.
Maybe 12.00 per share, my guess.


George


Tom DeReggi wrote:
Yes but, Quest has a loyal customer base, which is substantially 
different in profile than the other Telco's client base.
Its sorta like Verizon buying MCI, MCI offered a complete diverse 
portfolio of target clent bases and Assets.
Consolidation also allows for the sharing of infrastructure or getting 
rid of infrastructure, to maximize rerturn.


Although I do not contradict that Quest has huge debt, and something not 
many would want to tackle going into a buyout, Quest could still be a 
valuable add-on depending on who the buyer is.


I believe MCI was a huge strategic advantage for Verizon to buy.  It was 
a strategic buy not a revenue buy. Value is not just based on revenue. 
I'd argue that Quest could offer significant strategic advantages.


Tom DeReggi
RapidDSL & Wireless, Inc
IntAirNet- Fixed Wireless Broadband


- Original Message - From: "Blake Bowers" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
To: "WISPA General List" 
Sent: Monday, March 06, 2006 2:01 PM
Subject: Re: [WISPA] AT&T merging with BellSouth



Not likely.
Qwest has 14 billion in long term debt, Qwest is still losing money,
Qwest has NO wireless,
Qwest has a smaller customer base per square mile than
any player.

- Original Message - From: "George Rogato" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
To: "WISPA General List" 
Sent: Monday, March 06, 2006 11:56 AM
Subject: Re: [WISPA] AT&T merging with BellSouth



Qwest is next.

We all know consolidation is going to continue.

So I went out and bought some Qwest  shares this am.

George




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Re: [WISPA] VoIP/PBX Gateway appliance

[Tom DeReggi]

Matt,

I have no doubt, that you are prepairing yourself well for the future 
regarding VOIP. Its decissions like the ones you made to do MPLS and 
Redundant paths (in your case wired MESH), that will empower you to more 
reliably offer your own VOIP services On-Net, like you are doing.


The worst thing in the world you could do is bundle a 3rd party service 
that doesn't work very well and then because it is outsourced not be able 
to fix it.


However, that statement I do not agree with. I belive you concentrate first 
on mastering your core fundamental service, in many cases for WISPs, its 
"wireless". Until they got it perfect, wasting time on an additional service 
to also do partially well, is a mistake.  When a WISP reaches the point that 
they can offer their wireless well and take on providing their own VOIP 
services well, then sure its a good decissions. Most WISPs expecially start 
ups ARE NOT in that possition. I see to many WISP fail because they take on 
more than they can handle. Its tough dealing with outsource companies that 
start providing poor service to your clients, but its even worse when you 
start providing poor service to your own clients yourself.  When its the 
outsourced company, you can always shift blame to them, but when its 
yourself you have no choice but face the fire, without excuses.


Tom DeReggi
RapidDSL & Wireless, Inc
IntAirNet- Fixed Wireless Broadband




-Matt

Tom DeReggi wrote:


MAtt,

I agree with you on most of your comments.
However, there is more to it.

Offering VOIP is not just about making money on it. Its about controlling 
who has access to your subscribers, if one does not have the time to be a 
VOIP provider themselves.
Bundling is a necessarily part of succeeding going  in to the future. 
Its more important that ever to outsource VOIP, if it will likely never 
be a profitable business. let someone else loose the money, and reap the 
rewards of bundling today.  Give the companies access to your clients 
that will be the lowest threat.


What benefit is it to allow, Vonage, ATT, Comcast, Verizon access to your 
client base, by allowing your subscribers to choose their VOIP options?


So Matt, I agree if the ISP/WISP intends to make significant money on the 
service, build your own.  But don't knock the Primus/CommPartner models, 
they have their purpose and will enable many WISPs/ISPs to have an option 
to offer, that don;t have the resources to build their own.


What this industry needs to recognize is that there are industry trends 
that are going to gain market share, because consumers demand them and 
are willing to buy. They don't care who makes or looses money, they jsut 
know how to compare retail price they pay to the quality the receive. 
JUst like Muni broadband, its a reality of something that is going to 
happen.  So my point is, pick the companies that you want to help 
succeed, and which ones you want to help NOT succeed, because some of 
them ARE going to succeed.


Tom DeReggi
RapidDSL & Wireless, Inc
IntAirNet- Fixed Wireless Broadband


- Original Message - From: "Matt Liotta" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
To: "WISPA General List" 
Sent: Monday, March 06, 2006 1:09 PM
Subject: Re: [WISPA] VoIP/PBX Gateway appliance


Primus/Lingo is calling every WISP in the country trying to sign them up 
for a very CommPartners like deal. All of these VoIP providers are using 
the same shitty model that will be worthless in 2 years time. There is 
no money to be made in VoIP short-term unless you operate your own 
equipment. Long-term, there is no money to be made in VoIP at all. VoIP 
will soon be a loss leader; plan for it or do get into the VoIP 
business.


BTW, Primus makes all their money on international termination. The 
domestic stuff is losing money hand over fist.


-Matt

John Scrivner wrote:

Primus tells me they are more than a VOIP company and that they do make 
money. They impressed me in my dealings with them. Can you share more 
about your information about Primus? I have a big interest in knowing 
anything I can about them right now.

Thanks,
Scriv


Peter R. wrote:


You haven't seen it yet, because Lingo is not profitable yet.
Primus owns Lingo and Primus is basically an International VOIP 
company.


Like so many VOIP Providers, they are still trying to figure out how 
to make a profit.


Delta3 (which is the backend for VZ's VoiceWing) made $9.1M in revenue 
in 4Q05 and just $22k in income.


Vonage has a customer acquisition cost that is 20 times their MRC.

Regards,

Peter


Jonathan Schmidt wrote:


I've been personally delighted with two years of Lingo giving me
unlimited USA/Canada/EUROPE calling on 7 lines each for $19.95/month
and an unusually rich set of features (like e-mailing me compressed 
WAV

files of all incoming voicemails, etc.).
 Now, that's retail w/box and support.
 I've taken the box on trips and routed it through my laptop Ethernet 
while
the laptop is on a V.32 dialup and it works but sounds kind of 

Re: [WISPA] AT&T merging with BellSouth

[Matt Liotta]

I don't think Qwest is next. Verizon buying out Vodaphone's share of 
Verizon wireless is the next major purchase. From there Verizon will 
probably buy Alltel. Then look for Qwest, Embarq (formerly Sprint), and 
Valor (recently acquired Alltel wireline) to merge.


If you are looking to play the market based on the BellSouth deal, look 
for Lucent and Nortel to be acquired.


-Matt

George Rogato wrote:


Qwest is next.

We all know consolidation is going to continue.

So I went out and bought some Qwest  shares this am.

George

Frank Muto wrote:


NYT/WSJ

AT&T Inc. is nearing the acquisition of BellSouth Corp. for roughly $65
billion, people familiar with the situation said Saturday evening. A 
deal

could be announced as early as Monday, these people said.

Final terms of the deal could not be learned Saturday evening, but these
people said AT&T Inc. would pay a premium for BellSouth shares of at 
least

15%, valuing the company at $36 per share at least, up from its trading
price Friday of $31.46. That would push the total equity value of the 
deal
to at least $65 billion, plus the assumption of an additional $17 
billion of

BellSouth debt.

Spokespeople for BellSouth and AT&T declined to comment.

An AT&T-BellSouth deal would effectively cleave the nation's telecom
services in two, each vertically integrated with a local phone 
operation,
business services, and wireless unit. And it would effectively 
validate the
vision of competition laid out by the government -- one in which 
traditional
telecom firms compete directly against cable operators rather than 
against
each other. The move would give AT&T Inc. sole control over Cingular, 
the

nation's largest wireless operator.

A combination between AT&T and BellSouth could have combined market
capitalization of nearly $160 billion, making AT&T far larger than rival
Verizon. The deal would nonetheless set a showdown between AT&T and 
Verizon,

as the two fight to control wireless, the growth portion of the telecom
business.

It was the steep growth of Cingular -- joint owned by BellSouth and the
former SBC -- that helped push the two firms together, say telecom 
bankers
familiar with the space. As the importance of the wireless business 
grew,
they say, it became inevitable that SBC (which adopted the AT&T name 
just

months ago) would consolidate its position in the South.

Put together, the SBC territory would extend from California to Florida,
north to Illinois and south to Texas. Combining the two companies' 
current

market capitalizations, AT&T would have a market value approaching $150
billion, over 50% greater than Verizon.

AT&T Chairman and Chief Executive Edward Whitacre has made a name for
himself in the telecommunications industry as a serial acquirer.
Mr. Whitacre is able to boast of a string of acquisitions including 
Pacific
Telesis Corp., Ameritech Corp. and Southern New England 
Telecommunications
Corp. But as he nears retirement the market had been anticipating one 
last
hurrah from him; a BellSouth acquisition by AT&T has long been the 
subject

of speculation from analysts, investors and the two companies' rivals.

Still the speedy move to acquire BellSouth came as a surprise so soon 
after

Mr. Whitacre's takeover of AT&T Corp. last fall. His company is just
starting to digest the $16 billion acquisition. The former SBC
Communications Inc. took over AT&T Corp. and adopted the AT&T 
moniker. The
new company dominates nearly every aspect of the industry, from 
high-speed
Internet connections to long-distance phone service, as well as 
wireless.

And Mr. Whitacre now has access to the old
AT&T's enterprise business and world-wide network.

Such a deal would likely prompt howls of protest in some quarters as it
comes on the heels not only of the AT&T-SBC deal but also after Verizon
Communications Inc.'s acquisition of MCI. Those deals were approved with
only a few minor conditions despite concerns they would lead to higher
prices for business customers.
The wave of mergers has dramatically reshaped the telecom industry, 
and a

purchase of BellSouth would further cement the recreation of the old Ma
Bell, which the
government pushed to break up in 1984.

The management of AT&T, which has apparently briefed key senior 
government
officials late last week, appears to be betting that the Bush 
administration
and a Bell-friendly Federal Communications Commission won't raise too 
many

obstacles for such a deal, arguing that the companies serve different
geographic regions and do not currently compete with one another in a
significant way.

Although AT&T and Verizon's last mergers passed both FCC and Justice
Department review with little major problems, the latest proposed 
merger may
face more hurdles. Recent comments by AT&T and BellSouth executives 
about

their intentions to explore new revenue streams from their high-speed
Internet services by introducing two-tier or "premium" service for 
Internet

content providers. Concerns about 

Re: [WISPA] VoIP/PBX Gateway appliance

[Tom DeReggi]

Revenue: 174.0 million net Loss $189.6million
our marketing expenses were $176.3million."/


Wow.

That would support my arguement that there is no part of the equation more 
valuable than the portion responsible for the unique access to the consumer 
via a verticle sell.


So if I'm a wireless company, and its just thirty seconds to say, "would you 
like a VOIP phone with that broadband service" at order time, its worth 
gold.
Way more than 10-14% commissions.  Should we be paying our wholesale VOIP 
provider only $5 out of the $25 that we charge? Thats what it would infer by 
Vonage's numbers above.

Maybe Vonage should have taken partners more seriously?

Tom DeReggi
RapidDSL & Wireless, Inc
IntAirNet- Fixed Wireless Broadband


- Original Message - 
From: "Peter R." <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>

To: "WISPA General List" 
Sent: Monday, March 06, 2006 2:48 PM
Subject: Re: [WISPA] VoIP/PBX Gateway appliance



Because Vonage et al, sell Resi VOIP cheaper than TDM Voice.
Why? Easier to market. Easier to take orders (notice I did not say sell?)
But termination will be going up (already seeing rising costs for 
Dedicated LD).

E-911 is not cheap (nor is it nationally available).

You can try to work with a friendly CLEC (or become one).
But Voice is way different from Data.
One bad 911 and you are being sued and possibly jailed.
Wouldn't you rather offer services that aren't competing against the 
growing monster?

You would be better off selling cellular for a residual than selling VOIP.

Vonage was going to IPO last year for $660M; this year they are looking 
for $220M


In 1Q05:
"Vonage Holdings Corp. Founded in 2001, the Edison (N.J.) provider of 
Internet phone service has raised $210 million and last year racked up 
about $100 million in revenue. It has spent enough on marketing in a bid 
to make itself a household name, and several VCs say it will go public 
this year or next. But critics complain that while its ads attract new 
customers, it doesn't retain as many as it should."


"Om says Vonage IPO. I don't think they can wait. Reports are their growth 
is slowing, that costs are rising and that founder Jeffrey Citron has a 
bundle of his own cash in the venture."


In  2006: /"The street writes: Vonage Holdings, moved to become the first 
major Internet telephony player to go public by filing Wednesday to raise 
up to $250 million via an initial offering of stock and named a Tyco 
International executive as CEO. Our revenues were $18.7million in 2003, 
$79.7million in 2004, and $174.0 million for the nine months ended Sept. 
30, 2005," the company's prospectus says."While our revenues have grown 
rapidly, we have experienced increasing net losses, primarily driven by 
our increase in marketing expenses. From the period of inception through 
Sept.30, 2005, our cumulative net loss was $310 million. Our net loss for 
the nine months ended Sept.30, 2005, was $189.6million. During the same 
nine-month period, our marketing expenses were $176.3million."/




Jason Hensley wrote:

What about for those of us in small markets where the large VoIP players 
don't have access numbers?  What is your opinion on them coming here? 
For instance, I'm in an area where the closest VoIP provider's number is 
100 miles away with probably 25 or so NXX's that cannot call it locally. 
Not a feasible decision for a local business as any phone calls to them 
will be long distance for local residents.  Is there a case for or 
against partnering / working with a CLEC who has the ability to be WAY 
more flexible than the ILEC's, have them drop you DS1's / PRI's / 
whatever and work with them on getting local VoIP numbers for the folks 
in these areas?  I'm getting more and more people who want wireless 
Internet SOLELY because they do not have a home phone line other than 
their cell phone.  Do you see that as what we're headed to?  I do and I 
don't personally.  I think there will be a market of some kind for that, 
but I feel as well that for at least the foreseeable future (say 10 years 
or so), markets such as mine will not be doing away with wireline.  Too 
many challenges for both cellular providers, and WISP's due to terrain 
and sparseness of population.


I guess I'm having a hard time understanding why it cannot be profitable, 
at least on some level.


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Re: [WISPA] VoIP/PBX Gateway appliance

[Matt Larsen - Lists]

I've got working VOIP on my network, beta-tested and ready to roll out 
but without e911.  I like VOIP, because I have people subscribing to our 
service just so they can get Vonage and ditch their land line - but this 
whole e911 thing is a fscking nightmare. 

At what point does it make more sense to say screw the 911 and just go 
forward?  Aren't there a bunch of VOIP providers out there doing this 
already?  The cellcos have bought out their 911 requirements year after 
year.   I sense a court case in the making that will either force 911 
adoption or throw it out for voip carriers.  It is definitely a gray 
area right now.




Matt Larsen
[EMAIL PROTECTED]


Tom DeReggi wrote:


Revenue: 174.0 million net Loss $189.6million
our marketing expenses were $176.3million."/



Wow.

That would support my arguement that there is no part of the equation 
more valuable than the portion responsible for the unique access to 
the consumer via a verticle sell.


So if I'm a wireless company, and its just thirty seconds to say, 
"would you like a VOIP phone with that broadband service" at order 
time, its worth gold.
Way more than 10-14% commissions.  Should we be paying our wholesale 
VOIP provider only $5 out of the $25 that we charge? Thats what it 
would infer by Vonage's numbers above.

Maybe Vonage should have taken partners more seriously?

Tom DeReggi
RapidDSL & Wireless, Inc
IntAirNet- Fixed Wireless Broadband


- Original Message - From: "Peter R." <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
To: "WISPA General List" 
Sent: Monday, March 06, 2006 2:48 PM
Subject: Re: [WISPA] VoIP/PBX Gateway appliance



Because Vonage et al, sell Resi VOIP cheaper than TDM Voice.
Why? Easier to market. Easier to take orders (notice I did not say 
sell?)
But termination will be going up (already seeing rising costs for 
Dedicated LD).

E-911 is not cheap (nor is it nationally available).

You can try to work with a friendly CLEC (or become one).
But Voice is way different from Data.
One bad 911 and you are being sued and possibly jailed.
Wouldn't you rather offer services that aren't competing against the 
growing monster?
You would be better off selling cellular for a residual than selling 
VOIP.


Vonage was going to IPO last year for $660M; this year they are 
looking for $220M


In 1Q05:
"Vonage Holdings Corp. Founded in 2001, the Edison (N.J.) provider of 
Internet phone service has raised $210 million and last year racked 
up about $100 million in revenue. It has spent enough on marketing in 
a bid to make itself a household name, and several VCs say it will go 
public this year or next. But critics complain that while its ads 
attract new customers, it doesn't retain as many as it should."


"Om says Vonage IPO. I don't think they can wait. Reports are their 
growth is slowing, that costs are rising and that founder Jeffrey 
Citron has a bundle of his own cash in the venture."


In  2006: /"The street writes: Vonage Holdings, moved to become the 
first major Internet telephony player to go public by filing 
Wednesday to raise up to $250 million via an initial offering of 
stock and named a Tyco International executive as CEO. Our revenues 
were $18.7million in 2003, $79.7million in 2004, and $174.0 million 
for the nine months ended Sept. 30, 2005," the company's prospectus 
says."While our revenues have grown rapidly, we have experienced 
increasing net losses, primarily driven by our increase in marketing 
expenses. From the period of inception through Sept.30, 2005, our 
cumulative net loss was $310 million. Our net loss for the nine 
months ended Sept.30, 2005, was $189.6million. During the same 
nine-month period, our marketing expenses were $176.3million."/




Jason Hensley wrote:

What about for those of us in small markets where the large VoIP 
players don't have access numbers?  What is your opinion on them 
coming here? For instance, I'm in an area where the closest VoIP 
provider's number is 100 miles away with probably 25 or so NXX's 
that cannot call it locally. Not a feasible decision for a local 
business as any phone calls to them will be long distance for local 
residents.  Is there a case for or against partnering / working with 
a CLEC who has the ability to be WAY more flexible than the ILEC's, 
have them drop you DS1's / PRI's / whatever and work with them on 
getting local VoIP numbers for the folks in these areas?  I'm 
getting more and more people who want wireless Internet SOLELY 
because they do not have a home phone line other than their cell 
phone.  Do you see that as what we're headed to?  I do and I don't 
personally.  I think there will be a market of some kind for that, 
but I feel as well that for at least the foreseeable future (say 10 
years or so), markets such as mine will not be doing away with 
wireline.  Too many challenges for both cellular providers, and 
WISP's due to terrain and sparseness of population.


I guess I'm having a hard time understanding why it cannot be 
profitable, at l

RE: [WISPA] VoIP/PBX Gateway appliance

[Victoria]

Matt,

What type VoIP are you beta-testing?

We are currently looking at asterisk, but I am concerned about how many
subscribers I can maintain per PRI. So far the numbers I am getting do not
add up to profitability.  I almost makes more sense to resell another
providers product.

Victoria

-Original Message-
From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] On
Behalf Of Matt Larsen - Lists
Sent: Monday, March 06, 2006 3:21 PM
To: WISPA General List
Subject: Re: [WISPA] VoIP/PBX Gateway appliance


I've got working VOIP on my network, beta-tested and ready to roll out but
without e911.  I like VOIP, because I have people subscribing to our service
just so they can get Vonage and ditch their land line - but this whole e911
thing is a fscking nightmare. 

At what point does it make more sense to say screw the 911 and just go
forward?  Aren't there a bunch of VOIP providers out there doing this
already?  The cellcos have bought out their 911 requirements year after 
year.   I sense a court case in the making that will either force 911 
adoption or throw it out for voip carriers.  It is definitely a gray area
right now.



Matt Larsen
[EMAIL PROTECTED]


Tom DeReggi wrote:

>> Revenue: 174.0 million net Loss $189.6million our marketing expenses 
>> were $176.3million."/
>
>
> Wow.
>
> That would support my arguement that there is no part of the equation 
> more valuable than the portion responsible for the unique access to 
> the consumer via a verticle sell.
>
> So if I'm a wireless company, and its just thirty seconds to say, 
> "would you like a VOIP phone with that broadband service" at order 
> time, its worth gold.
> Way more than 10-14% commissions.  Should we be paying our wholesale 
> VOIP provider only $5 out of the $25 that we charge? Thats what it 
> would infer by Vonage's numbers above.
> Maybe Vonage should have taken partners more seriously?
>
> Tom DeReggi
> RapidDSL & Wireless, Inc
> IntAirNet- Fixed Wireless Broadband
>
>
> - Original Message - From: "Peter R." <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
> To: "WISPA General List" 
> Sent: Monday, March 06, 2006 2:48 PM
> Subject: Re: [WISPA] VoIP/PBX Gateway appliance
>
>
>> Because Vonage et al, sell Resi VOIP cheaper than TDM Voice.
>> Why? Easier to market. Easier to take orders (notice I did not say
>> sell?)
>> But termination will be going up (already seeing rising costs for 
>> Dedicated LD).
>> E-911 is not cheap (nor is it nationally available).
>>
>> You can try to work with a friendly CLEC (or become one).
>> But Voice is way different from Data.
>> One bad 911 and you are being sued and possibly jailed.
>> Wouldn't you rather offer services that aren't competing against the 
>> growing monster?
>> You would be better off selling cellular for a residual than selling 
>> VOIP.
>>
>> Vonage was going to IPO last year for $660M; this year they are 
>> looking for $220M
>>
>> In 1Q05:
>> "Vonage Holdings Corp. Founded in 2001, the Edison (N.J.) provider of 
>> Internet phone service has raised $210 million and last year racked 
>> up about $100 million in revenue. It has spent enough on marketing in 
>> a bid to make itself a household name, and several VCs say it will go 
>> public this year or next. But critics complain that while its ads 
>> attract new customers, it doesn't retain as many as it should."
>>
>> "Om says Vonage IPO. I don't think they can wait. Reports are their 
>> growth is slowing, that costs are rising and that founder Jeffrey 
>> Citron has a bundle of his own cash in the venture."
>>
>> In  2006: /"The street writes: Vonage Holdings, moved to become the 
>> first major Internet telephony player to go public by filing 
>> Wednesday to raise up to $250 million via an initial offering of 
>> stock and named a Tyco International executive as CEO. Our revenues 
>> were $18.7million in 2003, $79.7million in 2004, and $174.0 million 
>> for the nine months ended Sept. 30, 2005," the company's prospectus 
>> says."While our revenues have grown rapidly, we have experienced 
>> increasing net losses, primarily driven by our increase in marketing 
>> expenses. From the period of inception through Sept.30, 2005, our 
>> cumulative net loss was $310 million. Our net loss for the nine 
>> months ended Sept.30, 2005, was $189.6million. During the same 
>> nine-month period, our marketing expenses were $176.3million."/
>>
>>
>>
>> Jason Hensley wrote:
>>
>>> What about for those of us in small markets where the large VoIP 
>>> players don't have access numbers?  What is your opinion on them 
>>> coming here? For instance, I'm in an area where the closest VoIP 
>>> provider's number is 100 miles away with probably 25 or so NXX's 
>>> that cannot call it locally. Not a feasible decision for a local 
>>> business as any phone calls to them will be long distance for local 
>>> residents.  Is there a case for or against partnering / working with 
>>> a CLEC who has the ability to be WAY more flexible than the ILEC's, 
>>> have them drop y

Re: [WISPA] VoIP/PBX Gateway appliance

[Matt Liotta]

We aren't beta testing anything. We have been providing VoIP to our 
customers for over a year now and we do use Asterisk.


-Matt

Victoria wrote:


Matt,

What type VoIP are you beta-testing?

We are currently looking at asterisk, but I am concerned about how many
subscribers I can maintain per PRI. So far the numbers I am getting do not
add up to profitability.  I almost makes more sense to resell another
providers product.

Victoria

-Original Message-
From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] On
Behalf Of Matt Larsen - Lists
Sent: Monday, March 06, 2006 3:21 PM
To: WISPA General List
Subject: Re: [WISPA] VoIP/PBX Gateway appliance


I've got working VOIP on my network, beta-tested and ready to roll out but
without e911.  I like VOIP, because I have people subscribing to our service
just so they can get Vonage and ditch their land line - but this whole e911
thing is a fscking nightmare. 


At what point does it make more sense to say screw the 911 and just go
forward?  Aren't there a bunch of VOIP providers out there doing this
already?  The cellcos have bought out their 911 requirements year after 
year.   I sense a court case in the making that will either force 911 
adoption or throw it out for voip carriers.  It is definitely a gray area

right now.



Matt Larsen
[EMAIL PROTECTED]


Tom DeReggi wrote:

 

Revenue: 174.0 million net Loss $189.6million our marketing expenses 
were $176.3million."/
 


Wow.

That would support my arguement that there is no part of the equation 
more valuable than the portion responsible for the unique access to 
the consumer via a verticle sell.


So if I'm a wireless company, and its just thirty seconds to say, 
"would you like a VOIP phone with that broadband service" at order 
time, its worth gold.
Way more than 10-14% commissions.  Should we be paying our wholesale 
VOIP provider only $5 out of the $25 that we charge? Thats what it 
would infer by Vonage's numbers above.

Maybe Vonage should have taken partners more seriously?

Tom DeReggi
RapidDSL & Wireless, Inc
IntAirNet- Fixed Wireless Broadband


- Original Message - From: "Peter R." <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
To: "WISPA General List" 
Sent: Monday, March 06, 2006 2:48 PM
Subject: Re: [WISPA] VoIP/PBX Gateway appliance


   


Because Vonage et al, sell Resi VOIP cheaper than TDM Voice.
Why? Easier to market. Easier to take orders (notice I did not say
sell?)
But termination will be going up (already seeing rising costs for 
Dedicated LD).

E-911 is not cheap (nor is it nationally available).

You can try to work with a friendly CLEC (or become one).
But Voice is way different from Data.
One bad 911 and you are being sued and possibly jailed.
Wouldn't you rather offer services that aren't competing against the 
growing monster?
You would be better off selling cellular for a residual than selling 
VOIP.


Vonage was going to IPO last year for $660M; this year they are 
looking for $220M


In 1Q05:
"Vonage Holdings Corp. Founded in 2001, the Edison (N.J.) provider of 
Internet phone service has raised $210 million and last year racked 
up about $100 million in revenue. It has spent enough on marketing in 
a bid to make itself a household name, and several VCs say it will go 
public this year or next. But critics complain that while its ads 
attract new customers, it doesn't retain as many as it should."


"Om says Vonage IPO. I don't think they can wait. Reports are their 
growth is slowing, that costs are rising and that founder Jeffrey 
Citron has a bundle of his own cash in the venture."


In  2006: /"The street writes: Vonage Holdings, moved to become the 
first major Internet telephony player to go public by filing 
Wednesday to raise up to $250 million via an initial offering of 
stock and named a Tyco International executive as CEO. Our revenues 
were $18.7million in 2003, $79.7million in 2004, and $174.0 million 
for the nine months ended Sept. 30, 2005," the company's prospectus 
says."While our revenues have grown rapidly, we have experienced 
increasing net losses, primarily driven by our increase in marketing 
expenses. From the period of inception through Sept.30, 2005, our 
cumulative net loss was $310 million. Our net loss for the nine 
months ended Sept.30, 2005, was $189.6million. During the same 
nine-month period, our marketing expenses were $176.3million."/




Jason Hensley wrote:

 

What about for those of us in small markets where the large VoIP 
players don't have access numbers?  What is your opinion on them 
coming here? For instance, I'm in an area where the closest VoIP 
provider's number is 100 miles away with probably 25 or so NXX's 
that cannot call it locally. Not a feasible decision for a local 
business as any phone calls to them will be long distance for local 
residents.  Is there a case for or against partnering / working with 
a CLEC who has the ability to be WAY more flexible than the ILEC's, 
have them drop you DS1's / PRI's / whatever and work 

Re: [WISPA] Blocking ripe network ip space?

[Mac Dearman]

 I think I am about to stir some of you up by asking this - - oh well :)

90% of spam messages to our network and 99% of the DOS attacks we are 
suffering are in the IP space of RIPE network and I am considering blocking 
all IPs from RIPE.  What would be the most detrimental affect of this for my 
clients? other than the obvious no traffic to/from the EU?  Anyone else ever 
done this? If I were a National ISP I realize I couldnt do this - - keep in 
mind I serve a local rural network :-) in Louisiana


Thanks,

Mac Dearman
Maximum Access, LLC.
Authorized Barracuda Reseller
MikroTik RouterOS Certified
www.inetsouth.com
www.mac-tel.us
www.RadioResponse.org (Katrina Relief)
Rayville, La.
318.728.8600
318.303.4228
318.303.4229





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[WISPA] Teletronics Sectors

[Jason Wallace]

Anyone using the 19 dbi Hz Pol 120 deg sector from Teletronics, p/n 
15-124, in a 3 antenna array?  Anyone know what the front to back ratio 
is on one of these?  How about weatherability?


Jason Wallace
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Re: [WISPA] Blocking ripe network ip space?

[David E. Smith]

Mac Dearman wrote:

90% of spam messages to our network and 99% of the DOS attacks we are 
suffering are in the IP space of RIPE network and I am considering 
blocking all IPs from RIPE.  What would be the most detrimental affect 
of this for my clients? other than the obvious no traffic to/from the 
EU?  Anyone else ever done this? If I were a National ISP I realize I 
couldnt do this - - keep in mind I serve a local rural network :-) in 
Louisiana


Technically, there shouldn't be any major issues. Heck, depending on 
what kind of router you use, you may even be able to automate the 
process (completewhois and Team Cymru both offer a number of crazy BGP 
feed options, you may be able to just get a BGP feed from one of them 
that has a more-or-less current list of RIPE IPs and just route 'em to 
Null0).


I'm real close to just blocking all of China and Brazil for the same 
reason - too much spam and random DDOS traffic originating from there. 
(I haven't seen very much from RIPE space, by comparison.)


There is bound to be more than a few legitimate applications hosted in 
RIPE space that, sooner or later, you or one of your end-users will want 
to see. Consider starting with "merely" blocking SMTP traffic, or (if 
your mail filtering system supports this) just tagging mail from RIPE 
space as potential spam. And there are other ways to detect and block 
potential DDOS traffic, though I can't afford most of them, so I'm not 
the best person to ask on that point.


If you really want to stir something up, go ask this question on the 
NANOG list. :D


David Smith
MVN.net
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[WISPA] Motorola StarPoint 6000

[JohnnyO]

I've aquired 24-26 full racks of Motorola Starpoint equipment - Does anyone know of who may be using this. Someone mentioned they are using this equipment in Africa ??

Any suggestions are welcome 

JohnnyO




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RE: [WISPA] VoIP/PBX Gateway appliance - Beyond VoIP: Think Like a Cable Company and Accelerate ROI

[Charles Wu]

Here's an interesting concept (so interesting, in fact, that we made a
session about it at our next show)

All wireless network operators today carry Internet advertising over their
networks.  All that network traffic equates to more than $14 billion dollars
per year and is growing at double-digit rates every year.  Yet, even though
the network operator is responsible for connecting the "eyeball to the ad,"
they are left conspicuously on the sidelines when the advertising revenue
checks are being handed out.

John Wigboldus from Adzilla New Media will discuss how the wireless network
operator needs to think and act like a cable television company to start
earning revenue from advertisements that are being shown to their "viewers."

More details at: http://www.winog.com

Now sure exactly what they're about -- but IMO, it's an interesting thought
(and I'm gonna try to make that session =)

Btw, for those of you that can't make it -- don't fret, we DO post
powerpoints after the show available for public download (but of course it's
NEVER as good as actually being there =)

-Charles


---
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March 13-15, 2006
http://www.winog.com 



-Original Message-
From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] On
Behalf Of Peter R.
Sent: Monday, March 06, 2006 1:05 PM
To: John Scrivner
Cc: WISPA General List
Subject: Re: [WISPA] VoIP/PBX Gateway appliance


Primus is a big International LD company. That is how it began in 1994.
Check out the Primus Wireless plan. Cellular and VOIP are based in 
International exchanges.

Primus has short term debt of $26M; long term is $635M.
About to be de-listed from Nasdaq.
Net loss for the fourth quarter 2005 was ($25) million (including a $13 
million net loss from foreign currency transactions, a $4 million gain 
on early extinguishment of debt and $1 million in severance expense).

Revenue growth was in wireless (MVNO), Covad re-sale, and International 
markets.

Retail VOIP services grew modestly in the quarter to approximately 
104,000 customers. This growth level reflects the fact that the Company 
continued to moderate its investment in LINGO in part due to the 
disruption in marketing activities raised by E911 regulations. Revenue 
from retail VOIP customers reached $8 million during the fourth quarter.


John Scrivner wrote:

> Primus tells me they are more than a VOIP company and that they do
> make money. They impressed me in my dealings with them. Can you share 
> more about your information about Primus? I have a big interest in 
> knowing anything I can about them right now.
> Thanks,
> Scriv
>
>
> Peter R. wrote:
>
>> You haven't seen it yet, because Lingo is not profitable yet. Primus 
>> owns Lingo and Primus is basically an International VOIP company.
>>
>> Like so many VOIP Providers, they are still trying to figure out how
>> to make a profit.
>>
>> Delta3 (which is the backend for VZ's VoiceWing) made $9.1M in
>> revenue in 4Q05 and just $22k in income.
>>
>> Vonage has a customer acquisition cost that is 20 times their MRC.
>>
>> Regards,
>>
>> Peter
>

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RE: [WISPA] VoIP/PBX Gateway appliance

[Charles Wu]

 I think everyone of us need to be in our own VoIP business!! I have even 
given thought to a Coop kind of deal, but I need to have some more beer and 
thoughts on that :-)


Mac,

You need some BEER -N- WIRELESS GEAR

-Charles

---
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March 13-15, 2006
http://www.winog.com 


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RE: [WISPA] VoIP/PBX Gateway appliance

[Charles Wu]

We pay 
between $0.002 to $0.005 per minute on average for domestic long distance.


Matt,

Out of curiosity...do you mean 2-5 cents per minute? Or 0.2 to 0.5 cents per
minute?

-Charles

---
WiNOG Austin, TX
March 13-15, 2006
http://www.winog.com 



-Original Message-
From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] On
Behalf Of Matt Liotta
Sent: Monday, March 06, 2006 2:00 PM
To: WISPA General List
Subject: Re: [WISPA] VoIP/PBX Gateway appliance


The notion of avoiding toll costs by working with other WISPs sounds 
great in theory. From our standpoint, it would cost us more to connect 
to a single WISP than to pay our entire long distance bill. 

-Matt

Mac Dearman wrote:

> I agree with that bit of advice whole heartedly Matt!
>
>  We are in the process of setting up our own VoIP solution as we
> speak. I think that by the time that 100 of us WISPs get into our own 
> VoIP offerings we can allow access from the other WISPs PRI's...etc 
> for PSTN access to limit the amount of LD charges if their is availble 
> access from a fellow WISP...etc
>
> I think everyone of us need to be in our own VoIP business!! I have
> even given thought to a Coop kind of deal, but I need to have some 
> more beer and thoughts on that :-)
>
>
> Mac Dearman
> Maximum Access, LLC.
> Authorized Barracuda Reseller
> MikroTik RouterOS Certified
> www.inetsouth.com
> www.mac-tel.us
> www.RadioResponse.org (Katrina Relief)
> Rayville, La.
> 318.728.8600
> 318.303.4228
> 318.303.4229
>
>
>
>
>
> - Original Message - From: "Matt Liotta" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
> To: "WISPA General List" 
> Sent: Monday, March 06, 2006 1:21 PM
> Subject: Re: [WISPA] VoIP/PBX Gateway appliance
>
>
>> In our case, the most expense part of our VoIP deployment was getting
>> our network ready to support it correctly. Whether the backend is 
>> outsourced doesn't affect the requirement to support end-to-end QoS. 
>> Therefore, I believe that you should either get in all the way or not 
>> at all.
>>
>> The worst thing in the world you could do is bundle a 3rd party
>> service that doesn't work very well and then because it is outsourced 
>> not be able to fix it.
>>
>> -Matt
>>
>> Tom DeReggi wrote:
>>
>>> MAtt,
>>>
>>> I agree with you on most of your comments.
>>> However, there is more to it.
>>>
>>> Offering VOIP is not just about making money on it. Its about
>>> controlling who has access to your subscribers, if one does not have 
>>> the time to be a VOIP provider themselves.
>>> Bundling is a necessarily part of succeeding going  in to the 
>>> future. Its more important that ever to outsource VOIP, if it will 
>>> likely never be a profitable business. let someone else loose the 
>>> money, and reap the rewards of bundling today.  Give the companies 
>>> access to your clients that will be the lowest threat.
>>>
>>> What benefit is it to allow, Vonage, ATT, Comcast, Verizon access to
>>> your client base, by allowing your subscribers to choose their VOIP 
>>> options?
>>>
>>> So Matt, I agree if the ISP/WISP intends to make significant money
>>> on the service, build your own.  But don't knock the 
>>> Primus/CommPartner models, they have their purpose and will enable 
>>> many WISPs/ISPs to have an option to offer, that don;t have the 
>>> resources to build their own.
>>>
>>> What this industry needs to recognize is that there are industry
>>> trends that are going to gain market share, because consumers demand 
>>> them and are willing to buy. They don't care who makes or looses 
>>> money, they jsut know how to compare retail price they pay to the 
>>> quality the receive. JUst like Muni broadband, its a reality of 
>>> something that is going to happen.  So my point is, pick the 
>>> companies that you want to help succeed, and which ones you want to 
>>> help NOT succeed, because some of them ARE going to succeed.
>>>
>>> Tom DeReggi
>>> RapidDSL & Wireless, Inc
>>> IntAirNet- Fixed Wireless Broadband
>>>
>>>
>>> - Original Message - From: "Matt Liotta" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
>>> To: "WISPA General List" 
>>> Sent: Monday, March 06, 2006 1:09 PM
>>> Subject: Re: [WISPA] VoIP/PBX Gateway appliance
>>>
>>>
 Primus/Lingo is calling every WISP in the country trying to sign
 them up for a very CommPartners like deal. All of these VoIP 
 providers are using the same shitty model that will be worthless in 
 2 years time. There is no money to be made in VoIP short-term 
 unless you operate your own equipment. Long-term, there is no money 
 to be made in VoIP at all. VoIP will soon be a loss leader; plan 
 for it or do get into the VoIP business.

 BTW, Primus makes all their money on international termination. The
 domestic stuff is losing money hand over fist.

 -Matt

 John Scrivner wrote:

> Primus tells me they are more than a VOIP company and that they do
> make money. They impressed me in my dealings with them. Can y

[WISPA] Nice Resource

[Brian Rohrbacher]

http://www.gethuman.com/us/

Skip the annoying automation and get to a person.

Brian
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RE: [WISPA] Motorola StarPoint 6000

[Brian Webster]




Johnny,
    Can you give me more details on what you have. Is this 2 GHz stuff 
(probably 1800-1900 MHz)? I have a local county here who uses what I think is 
Starpoint but not sure. They are running out of spare cards and such and might 
be interested. I think this was used a lot in older public safety networks and 
other microwave projects like utility companies. It was mostly for radio 
networks and remote control. There may be a need on the used 2 way radio market 
for these items. If you can pull a little more information on what you have, 
specifically models and cards in the racks it may be of some use for the 2 way 
shops who maintain older systems and are having a hard time getting spare 
parts.
 
Thank You,
Brian Webster

www.wirelessmapping.com

  -Original Message-From: JohnnyO 
  [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]Sent: Monday, March 06, 2006 9:28 
  PMTo: WISPA General ListSubject: [WISPA] Motorola 
  StarPoint 6000I've aquired 24-26 full racks of Motorola 
  Starpoint equipment - Does anyone know of who may be using this. Someone 
  mentioned they are using this equipment in Africa ??Any 
  suggestions are welcome JohnnyO
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RE: [WISPA] VoIP/PBX Gateway appliance

[Jonathan Schmidt]

I really have to say that I had the opposite experience.

My Lingo, dicey for the first 6 months a couple of years
ago, has been rock solid for the past 18 months since I
got the newer boxes (USTARCOM).

The voice quality was not as good as Vonage unless you select
the higher quality option on your personal features Web page.
It is set to work well over DSL but a cable connection will
sound good with the higher quality option.

However, it will also work over a dial-up modem to a dialup ISP
(my cable router's backup route thru my lifeline...a business
FAX line I wanted to keep)!

I have always been able to get a Canadian tech of very high
quality when I pressed the agent.  I have waited anywhere from
2 to 20 minutes for an agent, however, but don't know recently
since I have had no problems.

Yes, there have been glitches, but very few.  I get many more
with SKYPE and "all circuits are busy" is frequent with my
office SBC (oops, AT&T&T&T&T).

On the whole, I wouldn't run from Lingo.  The number porting
anomolies and error responses may not be all their doing.

But, maybe it is.

. . . j o n a t h a n


-Original Message-
From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]
Behalf Of KyWiFi LLC
Sent: Monday, March 06, 2006 1:12 PM
To: WISPA General List
Subject: Re: [WISPA] VoIP/PBX Gateway appliance


Hi Scriv,

We tried Lingo but could not get it to work reliably and
their voice quality was horrible when it did work. Their
support is overseas so expect to be treated like a number
instead of a person. LNP's are hard to get approved and
people calling our ported number often got a busy signal
when we were not on the phone. Even if we were on the
phone, they should not have received a busy signal because
we their service is suppose to include call waiting. During
the first week or two after our number was ported, some
callers received a "This number has been disconnected"
message when they called us. My advice is to turn and run.


Sincerely,
Shannon D. Denniston, Co-Founder
KyWiFi, LLC - Mt. Sterling, Kentucky
http://www.KyWiFi.com
http://www.KyWiFiVoice.com
Phone: 859.274.4033
A Broadband Phone & Internet Provider

==
Wireless Broadband, Local Calling and
UNLIMITED Long Distance only $69!

No Taxes, No Regulatory Fees, No Hassles

FREE Site Survey: http://www.KyWiFi.com
==


- Original Message - 
From: "John Scrivner" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
To: <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>; "WISPA General List" 
Sent: Monday, March 06, 2006 12:47 PM
Subject: Re: [WISPA] VoIP/PBX Gateway appliance


Primus tells me they are more than a VOIP company and that they do make 
money. They impressed me in my dealings with them. Can you share more 
about your information about Primus? I have a big interest in knowing 
anything I can about them right now.
Thanks,
Scriv


Peter R. wrote:

> You haven't seen it yet, because Lingo is not profitable yet.
> Primus owns Lingo and Primus is basically an International VOIP company.
>
> Like so many VOIP Providers, they are still trying to figure out how 
> to make a profit.
>
> Delta3 (which is the backend for VZ's VoiceWing) made $9.1M in revenue 
> in 4Q05 and just $22k in income.
>
> Vonage has a customer acquisition cost that is 20 times their MRC.
>
> Regards,
>
> Peter
>
>
> Jonathan Schmidt wrote:
>
>> I've been personally delighted with two years of Lingo giving me
>> unlimited USA/Canada/EUROPE calling on 7 lines each for $19.95/month
>> and an unusually rich set of features (like e-mailing me compressed WAV
>> files of all incoming voicemails, etc.).
>>  
>> Now, that's retail w/box and support.
>>  
>> I've taken the box on trips and routed it through my laptop Ethernet 
>> while
>> the laptop is on a V.32 dialup and it works but sounds kind of like a 
>> cell
>> phone but having my local number with me in Europe and having unlimited
>> free calls throughout Europe from Europe or Eastern Europe for ZERO
>> additional cost is kinda cool.
>>  
>> It's SIP but they keep promising a soft phone for the line, like 
>> Vonaga, but
>> haven't seen it yet.
>>  
>> . . . j o n a t h a n
>
>
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