RE: [WISPA] bits per mbps

2006-12-29 Thread Jonathan Schmidt
Tom,
Our group, when at Nortel, developed a WEB cache product.  That was during
the days when a typical business had only a 56k digital line to the
Internet.

It was very tough to do a generalized cache because very few sites had
expiration tags on their HTML components.  However, a lot more do today and
aggressive caching (just hoping that the content at the component URL
wouldn't change) isn't so necessary to get reliable caching...just cache the
page pieces until their expiration dates.

However, then, your observation was very prescient; we couldn't get any site
to understand that caching of their common components would reduce the load
on their servers.  More recently, most have gravitated toward a decent
discipline in that regard.

Actually, it's quite fun to explore pages today.  You can see those dates
with FireFox Mozilla under TOOLS/PAGEINFO/MEDIA.  When you scroll through
the subwindow of components for the page (try YAHOO.COM for example) you'll
see expirations on most that are a month or two away and what caching can
do.

If you want to get very esoteric and have a lot more fun (And, Travis,
unless you've tried this...I don't to insult you efforts but I just found
out about this amazing...simply amazing plug-in for Firefox...it should be
helpful in debugging your Web page);
https://addons.mozilla.org/firefox/1843/
The firebug debugger (download it and, thereafter, bring up the HTML
debugging window with an F-12 key) gives you amazing insights into the page.
For example, open the debugger window and select debug tab and, when you
pass your cursor over the exposed understructure displayed in the debug
window, it will highlight on the real page, above, the part associated with
the understructure component.  It's easy to find parents and children of
things, and other stuff that would otherwise be an intractable mess.

. . . j o n a t h a n

-Original Message-
From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] On
Behalf Of Tom DeReggi
Sent: Thursday, December 28, 2006 3:57 PM
To: WISPA General List
Subject: Re: [WISPA] bits per mbps

Why is it politically correct for a Appliance vendor to charge for 
accelleration, and not an ISP, from a Net Neutrality perspective?
As WISPs, shouldn't we be charging Microsoft, Google, and Yahoo, a price for

offering cached services (on-net) to them, and reducing their bandwidth use 
of their broadband connections and improving their user's experiences on 
your network?

Tom DeReggi
RapidDSL  Wireless, Inc
IntAirNet- Fixed Wireless Broadband


- Original Message - 
From: Travis Johnson [EMAIL PROTECTED]
To: WISPA General List wireless@wispa.org
Sent: Wednesday, December 27, 2006 9:27 AM
Subject: Re: [WISPA] bits per mbps


 Hi,

 We've had one for almost 5 years now... but there isn't anything to play 
 with. They ship you three 1u servers and a Cisco switch. You plug 
 everything in and turn it on. They do all the admin, config, setup, etc. 
 and don't allow you access whatsoever.

 But it does work great. Microsoft updates come VERY fast (over 10Mbps 
 speeds) and many other sites are just as fast. However, I have no idea who

 to contact, as we were approached by them.

 Travis
 Microserv

 David E. Smith wrote:
 George Rogato wrote:

 You know Akamai is also an option. As I recall they require you to have 
 x number of subs and then send you their boxes to be set up on your 
 network. All free.

 Any idea on how many subs you need before this becomes an option? I've 
 heard that Akamai will do this, and I love having new toys in my NOC to 
 play with, but I've never been able to find out just how you go about 
 getting one.

 David Smith
 MVN.net
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RE: [WISPA] bits per mbps

2006-12-28 Thread CHUCK PROFITO
Jonathan,
You said snip 
In fact, we make a targeted messaging product that inserts a toolbar-like,
unobtrusive message into subscriber browsers display.

Is this program or code for sale to wispa members? Maybe tell us a few
details.  I was hoping we could use it for late pay's, etc.

Chuck 

-Original Message-
From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] On
Behalf Of CHUCK PROFITO
Sent: Wednesday, December 27, 2006 6:16 PM
To: 'WISPA General List'
Subject: RE: [WISPA] bits per mbps


John, will this code say any thing I want it to, like pay up or else  If
you sell it, any deals for members? Chuck 

-Original Message-
From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] On
Behalf Of Jonathan Schmidt
Sent: Wednesday, December 27, 2006 3:12 PM
To: 'WISPA General List'
Subject: RE: [WISPA] bits per mbps


Wow, Matt, you're well equipped with the good ideas.
In fact, we make a targeted messaging product that inserts a toolbar-like,
unobtrusive message into subscriber browsers display.  TVCABO bought it to
deploy all over Portugal...primarily to upsell their subscribers nearing
their byte cap limit.

I've seen several comments on the WISPA list that generally are very hostel
to byte cap subscriptions but that is more the rule than the exception in
Europe and Latin America we've found and, when a subscriber's near cut-off,
the up-sell is easier before than after.

. . . j o n a t h a n

-Original Message-
From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] On
Behalf Of Matt Liotta
Sent: Wednesday, December 27, 2006 4:08 PM
To: WISPA General List
Subject: Re: [WISPA] bits per mbps

Jonathan Schmidt wrote:
 True, Matt, often a better way.

 Now, what to do with P2P abusers?
   
Sell them more bandwidth?

-Matt

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Re: [WISPA] bits per mbps

2006-12-28 Thread George Rogato

CHUCK PROFITO wrote:

Jonathan,
You said snip 
In fact, we make a targeted messaging product that inserts a toolbar-like,

unobtrusive message into subscriber browsers display.

Is this program or code for sale to wispa members? Maybe tell us a few
details.  I was hoping we could use it for late pay's, etc.

Chuck 


I'd be interested in this as well. We could use it for our hotspot or 
free wifi users...


George

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RE: [WISPA] bits per mbps

2006-12-28 Thread Jonathan Schmidt
Chuck, it's being used for that, expired billing credit card renewal dates,
FCC E911 official limitation acknowledgements, etc.  However, it's mostly
been installed in very large cable operators.  I'd be happy to talk
off-line.  It does scale smoothly from 1K to millions of subs.

I'd be happy to describe a bit on how it works since that's more my area of
expertise but don't want to abuse the group here.  I'll tell you, though; it
has really been a fun thing to use.  I just saw a message that TVCABO, the
Portuguese cable company, sent to some subscribers in a small area something
like We are very pleased to have recovered in only 4 hours of service
outage because of the road crew on the A2 that was digging not only the road
but our cable.  But, for taking four hours, we still apologize.  

As a test, WideOpenWest (300K data subs) has been testing an automated
delivery of Amber Alerts from their XML feed from Amber Alert center.  Every
subscriber gets it only once and onlyk if it applies to their geographic
area.  They get 3 buttons: Close, MoreDetails, Opt-Out.  The Opt-out makes
sure they never receive another.  That gets rid of the grumps.  After a year
and 10M alerts delivered, 2.8% opted out, 38% regularly click through for
more details and on the DSLreports forum there have been no complaints and
it's a grumpy forum.  It auto feeds geo-targeted NOAA weather alerts or the
full EAS, too, if desired.  We're just experimenting with the best way to do
that without irritating the subs.   

Anyway, it's fun to think that you can finally control the visible channel
to the users' screens whenever you want...it's yours.

. . . j o n a t h a n
[EMAIL PROTECTED]
http://www.perftech.com


-Original Message-
From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] On
Behalf Of CHUCK PROFITO
Sent: Thursday, December 28, 2006 11:11 AM
To: 'WISPA General List'
Subject: RE: [WISPA] bits per mbps

Jonathan,
You said snip 
In fact, we make a targeted messaging product that inserts a toolbar-like,
unobtrusive message into subscriber browsers display.

Is this program or code for sale to wispa members? Maybe tell us a few
details.  I was hoping we could use it for late pay's, etc.

Chuck 

-Original Message-
From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] On
Behalf Of CHUCK PROFITO
Sent: Wednesday, December 27, 2006 6:16 PM
To: 'WISPA General List'
Subject: RE: [WISPA] bits per mbps


John, will this code say any thing I want it to, like pay up or else  If
you sell it, any deals for members? Chuck 

-Original Message-
From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] On
Behalf Of Jonathan Schmidt
Sent: Wednesday, December 27, 2006 3:12 PM
To: 'WISPA General List'
Subject: RE: [WISPA] bits per mbps


Wow, Matt, you're well equipped with the good ideas.
In fact, we make a targeted messaging product that inserts a toolbar-like,
unobtrusive message into subscriber browsers display.  TVCABO bought it to
deploy all over Portugal...primarily to upsell their subscribers nearing
their byte cap limit.

I've seen several comments on the WISPA list that generally are very hostel
to byte cap subscriptions but that is more the rule than the exception in
Europe and Latin America we've found and, when a subscriber's near cut-off,
the up-sell is easier before than after.

. . . j o n a t h a n

-Original Message-
From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] On
Behalf Of Matt Liotta
Sent: Wednesday, December 27, 2006 4:08 PM
To: WISPA General List
Subject: Re: [WISPA] bits per mbps

Jonathan Schmidt wrote:
 True, Matt, often a better way.

 Now, what to do with P2P abusers?
   
Sell them more bandwidth?

-Matt

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RE: [WISPA] bits per mbps

2006-12-28 Thread Butch Evans

On Thu, 28 Dec 2006, Jonathan Schmidt wrote:

been installed in very large cable operators.  I'd be happy to talk 
off-line.  It does scale smoothly from 1K to millions of subs.


There have been 2 people who've asked for some other detail on the 
list, and I'll add my name in the hat for that.  With (now) 3 people 
asking for some detail, please provide a bit of detail onlist.


It is (I assume) a server (proxy?) of sorts.  What platform does the 
server run on?  Does it require specialized hardware?  What is 
required to get it running on the client end?  Is it a special 
application, or is it a browser plugin type thing?


--
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Network Engineering and Security Consulting
573-276-2879
http://www.butchevans.com/
Mikrotik Certified Consultant
(http://www.mikrotik.com/consultants.html)
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Re: [WISPA] bits per mbps

2006-12-28 Thread George Rogato

Butch Evans wrote:

On Thu, 28 Dec 2006, Jonathan Schmidt wrote:

been installed in very large cable operators.  I'd be happy to talk 
off-line.  It does scale smoothly from 1K to millions of subs.


There have been 2 people who've asked for some other detail on the list, 
and I'll add my name in the hat for that.  With (now) 3 people asking 
for some detail, please provide a bit of detail onlist.


It is (I assume) a server (proxy?) of sorts.  What platform does the 
server run on?  Does it require specialized hardware?  What is required 
to get it running on the client end?  Is it a special application, or is 
it a browser plugin type thing?




I just want to know how much it cost. Offlist with the answer if you 
feel it's not for public viewing.


I might add, that I can't think of anyone who would not want to have 
this available to them.


Seems like Jonathan Schmidt has a winner!

George

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RE: [WISPA] bits per mbps

2006-12-28 Thread Jonathan Schmidt
Butch, with this list accepting my small excursion into what we do, the
system isn't a proxy and is not installed in line with any traffic but is a
1U rack NOC-installed box.  It must be associated with a router or switch
which has all the subscribers downstream.  Small slave devices, up to
hundreds, can be distributed if the provider has a multiplicity of
POPs...often the case when growth via acquisition has formed the ISP.  It
adds zero latency since no connections pass through it.  It has multiple
interfaces so can handle a multiplicity of simultaneous, even asymmetric,
paths without extra hardware...up to multiple OC-192 connections.

No client is required and the display appears on any targeted account's PC,
Mac, browser, etc., and passes gateways, cascaded NATs, proxies, or other
intervening devices.

The platform is proprietary and the RTOS is the same system that Cisco uses
under their IOS on their large new routers, QNX.  It's self-healing,
real-time updatable, failsafe.  It's a cool Real Time Operating System if
anyone is interested in a very fast, super reliable embedded system.
http://www.qnx.com/

I made a presentation in a major session at the last Muniwireless show on
its use in an automatic delivery of geo-targeted EAS alerts and
geo-customized content filtering in municipal type Wi-Fi environments like
would be desired around school properties, etc.  If that's not on the
Muniwireless site, I can make it available to anyone that would find it
interesting.

I've been interested in wireless for years...a ham, W8BZB for over 50 years,
sold my last company to Nortel about the time they started early Wi-Fi
products and got very familiar with it about 10 years ago.  We parted Nortel
4 or 5 years ago and started this company.

The heart of the system is an elaborate and gigantic message switch that
assures delivery of exactly the content (any HTML anywhere) to targeted
recipients' screens constrained to a tight schedule and the specified
frequency.  For example, a weather alert won't go to a sub out of the area
and won't go to a sub in the area if they start browsing after it's expired.
And, if they've viewed it, they won't be bothered again.  Subscribers are
very, very sensitive to disruption of their browsing context and won't put
up with anything that interferes with the smooth process of their activity
at the time.  It's taken a couple of years with millions of experimental
deliveries to tune it so that there is no grumbling.

Interestingly, at the last MAAWG conference, http://www.maawg.org, sponsored
by AOL, Yahoo, Microsoft, Ironport, etc., a discussion was very energetic on
the subject of control of network abuse.  Just shut them down if they're
abusing the network was frequently heard.  Then, several major MSOs popped
up and started giving examples of horrible consequences after shutting down
critical network access by putting the subscriber into a walled garden.  For
example, a subscriber had several PCs and a Vonage behind a gateway.  The
kid's PC was infected and engaged in a DNS attack.  They turned off the DNS
port in the modem...the Vonage lifeline and E911 went down and there were
consequences.  A polite communication (ahem) could have engaged the
subscriber as a partner in remediation.  WideOpenWest made a presentation at
that last MAAWG conference as how they control abuse without suspending any
potentially critical Internet serviceusing the yours truly product.  I
can find that presentation by Dave Walden of WideOpenWest if anyone is
interested.

. . . j o n a t h a n
[EMAIL PROTECTED]
http://www.perftech.com





-Original Message-
From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] On
Behalf Of Butch Evans
Sent: Thursday, December 28, 2006 12:46 PM
To: WISPA General List
Subject: RE: [WISPA] bits per mbps

On Thu, 28 Dec 2006, Jonathan Schmidt wrote:

been installed in very large cable operators.  I'd be happy to talk 
off-line.  It does scale smoothly from 1K to millions of subs.

There have been 2 people who've asked for some other detail on the 
list, and I'll add my name in the hat for that.  With (now) 3 people 
asking for some detail, please provide a bit of detail onlist.

It is (I assume) a server (proxy?) of sorts.  What platform does the 
server run on?  Does it require specialized hardware?  What is 
required to get it running on the client end?  Is it a special 
application, or is it a browser plugin type thing?

-- 
Butch Evans
Network Engineering and Security Consulting
573-276-2879
http://www.butchevans.com/
Mikrotik Certified Consultant
(http://www.mikrotik.com/consultants.html)
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RE: [WISPA] bits per mbps

2006-12-28 Thread Jonathan Schmidt
Thanks, George, we're really having a good time with this.  

I'll go off line with anything that even hints at commerce but feel
relatively comfortable staying in my realm; how it works and other technical
topics.

The vast majority of deployments have been in cable MSOs.  There is a very
small version for medium ISPs and large hospitality systems (collections of
large hotels in destination areas with 1000s of users).  In Korea they are
interested in advertising to subsidize rate lowering and there, they don't
seem to mind screen clutter...and, in fact, enjoy it.  As I mentioned, in
Europe, byte-cap subscriptions are the broadband norm and it's used to alert
a sub to upcoming exceedance and an offer to upgrade...much better received
before the cap is exceeded and the rate drops to dial-up speeds.  It's hard
to sell anything to an enraged customer.

So, I'll go look at the commercial side and be ready to continue that part
off line.  I'm really not familiar with that part, actually.

. . . j o n a t h a n
[EMAIL PROTECTED]
http://www.perftech.com


-Original Message-
From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] On
Behalf Of George Rogato
Sent: Thursday, December 28, 2006 1:07 PM
To: WISPA General List
Subject: Re: [WISPA] bits per mbps

Butch Evans wrote:
 On Thu, 28 Dec 2006, Jonathan Schmidt wrote:
 
 been installed in very large cable operators.  I'd be happy to talk 
 off-line.  It does scale smoothly from 1K to millions of subs.
 
 There have been 2 people who've asked for some other detail on the list, 
 and I'll add my name in the hat for that.  With (now) 3 people asking 
 for some detail, please provide a bit of detail onlist.
 
 It is (I assume) a server (proxy?) of sorts.  What platform does the 
 server run on?  Does it require specialized hardware?  What is required 
 to get it running on the client end?  Is it a special application, or is 
 it a browser plugin type thing?
 

I just want to know how much it cost. Offlist with the answer if you 
feel it's not for public viewing.

I might add, that I can't think of anyone who would not want to have 
this available to them.

Seems like Jonathan Schmidt has a winner!

George

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Re: [WISPA] bits per mbps

2006-12-28 Thread Tom DeReggi

If you peer with Akamai, LimeLight, Google, Yahoo, etc you won't

pay for transit of their content and it will be fast... very fast.


Yes, if your performance problem is to those locations.
The problem is most transit providers already have good peering with them.
The reason to cache, is to improve speed and reduce bandwidth across transit 
to all the other many smaller sites you need communication with, that your 
upstream does not have good peering with.
You are also making the assumption that the direct Peering connection costs 
are less expensive than the transit costs to connect to them.


Tom DeReggi
RapidDSL  Wireless, Inc
IntAirNet- Fixed Wireless Broadband


- Original Message - 
From: Matt Liotta [EMAIL PROTECTED]

To: WISPA General List wireless@wispa.org
Sent: Wednesday, December 27, 2006 11:38 AM
Subject: Re: [WISPA] bits per mbps


You don't need to host Akamai boxes and/or rely solely on Akamai's 
customers content for an improvement in experience and a decrease in 
transit cost. IMHO, the easier way is to simply peer with the various 
CDNs. -Matt


Jonathan Schmidt wrote:

Hi, and Happy New Year, all, before I forget

The Akamai caches content that folks pay them to put on it which includes
stuff like Microsoft updates, Real Player updates and downloads, 
anti-virus
vendor downloads, etc.  It's really great since the latency vanishes and 
I

note here that I experience downloads of updates of 4 to 5 megabits per
second on the cable modem...a rate that wouldn't be possible even with 
the

large XP window size with latencies to the original sites.

However, it won't cache most sites since they are often not capable of 
being

cached without breaking the experience for the user and, besides, Akamai
doesn't care.

It won't cache P2P traffic like BitTorrent or Napster, traffic that is
likely the source of a lot of network load.

It is a completely different animal in a different sphere of operation 
and,

although valuable, isn't an ad-hoc cache.

. . . j o n a t h a n


-Original Message-
From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] On
Behalf Of Travis Johnson
Sent: Wednesday, December 27, 2006 8:27 AM
To: WISPA General List
Subject: Re: [WISPA] bits per mbps

Hi,

We've had one for almost 5 years now... but there isn't anything to play 
with. They ship you three 1u servers and a Cisco switch. You plug 
everything in and turn it on. They do all the admin, config, setup, etc. 
and don't allow you access whatsoever.


But it does work great. Microsoft updates come VERY fast (over 10Mbps 
speeds) and many other sites are just as fast. However, I have no idea 
who to contact, as we were approached by them.


Travis
Microserv

David E. Smith wrote:


George Rogato wrote:


You know Akamai is also an option. As I recall they require you to have 
x number of subs and then send you their boxes to be set up on your 
network. All free.


Any idea on how many subs you need before this becomes an option? I've 
heard that Akamai will do this, and I love having new toys in my NOC to 
play with, but I've never been able to find out just how you go about 
getting one.


David Smith
MVN.net



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Re: [WISPA] bits per mbps

2006-12-28 Thread Tom DeReggi
Why is it politically correct for a Appliance vendor to charge for 
accelleration, and not an ISP, from a Net Neutrality perspective?
As WISPs, shouldn't we be charging Microsoft, Google, and Yahoo, a price for 
offering cached services (on-net) to them, and reducing their bandwidth use 
of their broadband connections and improving their user's experiences on 
your network?


Tom DeReggi
RapidDSL  Wireless, Inc
IntAirNet- Fixed Wireless Broadband


- Original Message - 
From: Travis Johnson [EMAIL PROTECTED]

To: WISPA General List wireless@wispa.org
Sent: Wednesday, December 27, 2006 9:27 AM
Subject: Re: [WISPA] bits per mbps



Hi,

We've had one for almost 5 years now... but there isn't anything to play 
with. They ship you three 1u servers and a Cisco switch. You plug 
everything in and turn it on. They do all the admin, config, setup, etc. 
and don't allow you access whatsoever.


But it does work great. Microsoft updates come VERY fast (over 10Mbps 
speeds) and many other sites are just as fast. However, I have no idea who 
to contact, as we were approached by them.


Travis
Microserv

David E. Smith wrote:

George Rogato wrote:

You know Akamai is also an option. As I recall they require you to have 
x number of subs and then send you their boxes to be set up on your 
network. All free.


Any idea on how many subs you need before this becomes an option? I've 
heard that Akamai will do this, and I love having new toys in my NOC to 
play with, but I've never been able to find out just how you go about 
getting one.


David Smith
MVN.net

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Re: [WISPA] bits per mbps

2006-12-28 Thread Tom DeReggi
Take note that caching content, generally reduces download traffic, which 
does not always translate to a financial savings.
It can screws up your up/down ratios, that many Upstream backbone providers 
want to see 50/50 or more download than upload, to honor the price they 
quote you.
In other words, 1 mbps of upload data is more expensive to buy than 1 mbps 
of upload combined with 1 mbps of download, if you are talking scale and 
peering.


Tom DeReggi
RapidDSL  Wireless, Inc
IntAirNet- Fixed Wireless Broadband

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Re: [WISPA] bits per mbps

2006-12-27 Thread David E. Smith

Jonathan Schmidt wrote:


Also, they add significant latency to ordinary traffic (the requested URLs
have to be obtained in their entirety first then relayed) and you can't have
more than a thousand up to several thousand simultaneous users...maybe not a
problem... you can get around that with load balancing in the NOCs with
multiple proxy servers.


True, but that doesn't mean they're always bad for everyone. I used to 
run a transparent Web cache/proxy for our dialup users, but it was more 
for our benefit than theirs. (It was cheaper than adding more T1s at the 
time.)


If you have plenty of backhaul capacity, and plenty of upstream 
capacity, nobody will get much benefit from Web caching. If one or both 
of those is a bit tight, the parts to build one are usually cheaper than 
a big expansion, and can get you through a tight spot (hopefully just as 
a temporary measure until you can do things the right way, but...)


I did have one set up for our wireless network a couple years back, but 
it ended up being more trouble than it was worth, as I spent a lot of 
time programming in exceptions. (Example: one of our bigger customers at 
the time was a car dealership, and Web proxying broke a lot of their 
stuff talking back to Detroit.) Expect a lot of weird phone calls the 
first week or so after you turn one on.


David Smith
MVN.net
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Re: [WISPA] bits per mbps

2006-12-27 Thread David E. Smith

George Rogato wrote:

You know Akamai is also an option. As I recall they require you to have 
x number of subs and then send you their boxes to be set up on your 
network. All free.


Any idea on how many subs you need before this becomes an option? I've 
heard that Akamai will do this, and I love having new toys in my NOC to 
play with, but I've never been able to find out just how you go about 
getting one.


David Smith
MVN.net
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Re: [WISPA] bits per mbps

2006-12-27 Thread Travis Johnson

Hi,

We've had one for almost 5 years now... but there isn't anything to 
play with. They ship you three 1u servers and a Cisco switch. You plug 
everything in and turn it on. They do all the admin, config, setup, etc. 
and don't allow you access whatsoever.


But it does work great. Microsoft updates come VERY fast (over 10Mbps 
speeds) and many other sites are just as fast. However, I have no idea 
who to contact, as we were approached by them.


Travis
Microserv

David E. Smith wrote:

George Rogato wrote:

You know Akamai is also an option. As I recall they require you to 
have x number of subs and then send you their boxes to be set up on 
your network. All free.


Any idea on how many subs you need before this becomes an option? I've 
heard that Akamai will do this, and I love having new toys in my NOC 
to play with, but I've never been able to find out just how you go 
about getting one.


David Smith
MVN.net

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RE: [WISPA] bits per mbps

2006-12-27 Thread Jonathan Schmidt
Hi, and Happy New Year, all, before I forget

The Akamai caches content that folks pay them to put on it which includes
stuff like Microsoft updates, Real Player updates and downloads, anti-virus
vendor downloads, etc.  It's really great since the latency vanishes and I
note here that I experience downloads of updates of 4 to 5 megabits per
second on the cable modem...a rate that wouldn't be possible even with the
large XP window size with latencies to the original sites.

However, it won't cache most sites since they are often not capable of being
cached without breaking the experience for the user and, besides, Akamai
doesn't care.

It won't cache P2P traffic like BitTorrent or Napster, traffic that is
likely the source of a lot of network load.

It is a completely different animal in a different sphere of operation and,
although valuable, isn't an ad-hoc cache.

. . . j o n a t h a n


-Original Message-
From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] On
Behalf Of Travis Johnson
Sent: Wednesday, December 27, 2006 8:27 AM
To: WISPA General List
Subject: Re: [WISPA] bits per mbps

Hi,

We've had one for almost 5 years now... but there isn't anything to 
play with. They ship you three 1u servers and a Cisco switch. You plug 
everything in and turn it on. They do all the admin, config, setup, etc. 
and don't allow you access whatsoever.

But it does work great. Microsoft updates come VERY fast (over 10Mbps 
speeds) and many other sites are just as fast. However, I have no idea 
who to contact, as we were approached by them.

Travis
Microserv

David E. Smith wrote:
 George Rogato wrote:

 You know Akamai is also an option. As I recall they require you to 
 have x number of subs and then send you their boxes to be set up on 
 your network. All free.

 Any idea on how many subs you need before this becomes an option? I've 
 heard that Akamai will do this, and I love having new toys in my NOC 
 to play with, but I've never been able to find out just how you go 
 about getting one.

 David Smith
 MVN.net
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12:21 PM
 

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Re: [WISPA] bits per mbps

2006-12-27 Thread Matt Liotta
You don't need to host Akamai boxes and/or rely solely on Akamai's 
customers content for an improvement in experience and a decrease in 
transit cost. IMHO, the easier way is to simply peer with the various 
CDNs. If you peer with Akamai, LimeLight, Google, Yahoo, etc you won't 
pay for transit of their content and it will be fast... very fast.


-Matt

Jonathan Schmidt wrote:

Hi, and Happy New Year, all, before I forget

The Akamai caches content that folks pay them to put on it which includes
stuff like Microsoft updates, Real Player updates and downloads, anti-virus
vendor downloads, etc.  It's really great since the latency vanishes and I
note here that I experience downloads of updates of 4 to 5 megabits per
second on the cable modem...a rate that wouldn't be possible even with the
large XP window size with latencies to the original sites.

However, it won't cache most sites since they are often not capable of being
cached without breaking the experience for the user and, besides, Akamai
doesn't care.

It won't cache P2P traffic like BitTorrent or Napster, traffic that is
likely the source of a lot of network load.

It is a completely different animal in a different sphere of operation and,
although valuable, isn't an ad-hoc cache.

. . . j o n a t h a n


-Original Message-
From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] On
Behalf Of Travis Johnson
Sent: Wednesday, December 27, 2006 8:27 AM
To: WISPA General List
Subject: Re: [WISPA] bits per mbps

Hi,

We've had one for almost 5 years now... but there isn't anything to 
play with. They ship you three 1u servers and a Cisco switch. You plug 
everything in and turn it on. They do all the admin, config, setup, etc. 
and don't allow you access whatsoever.


But it does work great. Microsoft updates come VERY fast (over 10Mbps 
speeds) and many other sites are just as fast. However, I have no idea 
who to contact, as we were approached by them.


Travis
Microserv

David E. Smith wrote:
  

George Rogato wrote:


You know Akamai is also an option. As I recall they require you to 
have x number of subs and then send you their boxes to be set up on 
your network. All free.
  
Any idea on how many subs you need before this becomes an option? I've 
heard that Akamai will do this, and I love having new toys in my NOC 
to play with, but I've never been able to find out just how you go 
about getting one.


David Smith
MVN.net



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RE: [WISPA] bits per mbps

2006-12-27 Thread Jonathan Schmidt
True, Matt, often a better way.

Now, what to do with P2P abusers?

. . . j o n a t h a n

-Original Message-
From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] On
Behalf Of Matt Liotta
Sent: Wednesday, December 27, 2006 10:39 AM
To: WISPA General List
Subject: Re: [WISPA] bits per mbps

You don't need to host Akamai boxes and/or rely solely on Akamai's 
customers content for an improvement in experience and a decrease in 
transit cost. IMHO, the easier way is to simply peer with the various 
CDNs. If you peer with Akamai, LimeLight, Google, Yahoo, etc you won't 
pay for transit of their content and it will be fast... very fast.

-Matt

Jonathan Schmidt wrote:
 Hi, and Happy New Year, all, before I forget

 The Akamai caches content that folks pay them to put on it which includes
 stuff like Microsoft updates, Real Player updates and downloads,
anti-virus
 vendor downloads, etc.  It's really great since the latency vanishes and I
 note here that I experience downloads of updates of 4 to 5 megabits per
 second on the cable modem...a rate that wouldn't be possible even with the
 large XP window size with latencies to the original sites.

 However, it won't cache most sites since they are often not capable of
being
 cached without breaking the experience for the user and, besides, Akamai
 doesn't care.

 It won't cache P2P traffic like BitTorrent or Napster, traffic that is
 likely the source of a lot of network load.

 It is a completely different animal in a different sphere of operation
and,
 although valuable, isn't an ad-hoc cache.

 . . . j o n a t h a n


 -Original Message-
 From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] On
 Behalf Of Travis Johnson
 Sent: Wednesday, December 27, 2006 8:27 AM
 To: WISPA General List
 Subject: Re: [WISPA] bits per mbps

 Hi,

 We've had one for almost 5 years now... but there isn't anything to 
 play with. They ship you three 1u servers and a Cisco switch. You plug 
 everything in and turn it on. They do all the admin, config, setup, etc. 
 and don't allow you access whatsoever.

 But it does work great. Microsoft updates come VERY fast (over 10Mbps 
 speeds) and many other sites are just as fast. However, I have no idea 
 who to contact, as we were approached by them.

 Travis
 Microserv

 David E. Smith wrote:
   
 George Rogato wrote:

 
 You know Akamai is also an option. As I recall they require you to 
 have x number of subs and then send you their boxes to be set up on 
 your network. All free.
   
 Any idea on how many subs you need before this becomes an option? I've 
 heard that Akamai will do this, and I love having new toys in my NOC 
 to play with, but I've never been able to find out just how you go 
 about getting one.

 David Smith
 MVN.net
 

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Re: [WISPA] bits per mbps

2006-12-27 Thread Rich Comroe
We typically make customer contact when a customer shows up as a regular on our 
1Gbyte Honor Roll (a daily list of everyone with = 1Gbyte in or out in the 
past 24 hrs).  Often we find they are infected, but sometimes P2Pers.  We crank 
down their CIR if they don't clean up until they are off that 1GByte list.

Rich

  - Original Message - 
  From: Jonathan Schmidt 
  To: 'WISPA General List' 
  Sent: Wednesday, December 27, 2006 11:37 AM
  Subject: RE: [WISPA] bits per mbps


  True, Matt, often a better way.

  Now, what to do with P2P abusers?

   . . j o n a t h a n

  -Original Message-
  From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] On
  Behalf Of Matt Liotta
  Sent: Wednesday, December 27, 2006 10:39 AM
  To: WISPA General List
  Subject: Re: [WISPA] bits per mbps

  You don't need to host Akamai boxes and/or rely solely on Akamai's 
  customers content for an improvement in experience and a decrease in 
  transit cost. IMHO, the easier way is to simply peer with the various 
  CDNs. If you peer with Akamai, LimeLight, Google, Yahoo, etc you won't 
  pay for transit of their content and it will be fast... very fast.

  -Matt

  Jonathan Schmidt wrote:
   Hi, and Happy New Year, all, before I forget
  
   The Akamai caches content that folks pay them to put on it which includes
   stuff like Microsoft updates, Real Player updates and downloads,
  anti-virus
   vendor downloads, etc.  It's really great since the latency vanishes and I
   note here that I experience downloads of updates of 4 to 5 megabits per
   second on the cable modem...a rate that wouldn't be possible even with the
   large XP window size with latencies to the original sites.
  
   However, it won't cache most sites since they are often not capable of
  being
   cached without breaking the experience for the user and, besides, Akamai
   doesn't care.
  
   It won't cache P2P traffic like BitTorrent or Napster, traffic that is
   likely the source of a lot of network load.
  
   It is a completely different animal in a different sphere of operation
  and,
   although valuable, isn't an ad-hoc cache.
  
   . . . j o n a t h a n
  
  
   -Original Message-
   From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] On
   Behalf Of Travis Johnson
   Sent: Wednesday, December 27, 2006 8:27 AM
   To: WISPA General List
   Subject: Re: [WISPA] bits per mbps
  
   Hi,
  
   We've had one for almost 5 years now... but there isn't anything to 
   play with. They ship you three 1u servers and a Cisco switch. You plug 
   everything in and turn it on. They do all the admin, config, setup, etc. 
   and don't allow you access whatsoever.
  
   But it does work great. Microsoft updates come VERY fast (over 10Mbps 
   speeds) and many other sites are just as fast. However, I have no idea 
   who to contact, as we were approached by them.
  
   Travis
   Microserv
  
   David E. Smith wrote:
 
   George Rogato wrote:
  
   
   You know Akamai is also an option. As I recall they require you to 
   have x number of subs and then send you their boxes to be set up on 
   your network. All free.
 
   Any idea on how many subs you need before this becomes an option? I've 
   heard that Akamai will do this, and I love having new toys in my NOC 
   to play with, but I've never been able to find out just how you go 
   about getting one.
  
   David Smith
   MVN.net
   

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Re: [WISPA] bits per mbps

2006-12-27 Thread Matt Liotta

Jonathan Schmidt wrote:

True, Matt, often a better way.

Now, what to do with P2P abusers?
  

Sell them more bandwidth?

-Matt

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RE: [WISPA] bits per mbps

2006-12-27 Thread Jonathan Schmidt
Wow, Matt, you're well equipped with the good ideas.
In fact, we make a targeted messaging product that inserts a toolbar-like,
unobtrusive message into subscriber browsers display.  TVCABO bought it to
deploy all over Portugal...primarily to upsell their subscribers nearing
their byte cap limit.

I've seen several comments on the WISPA list that generally are very hostel
to byte cap subscriptions but that is more the rule than the exception in
Europe and Latin America we've found and, when a subscriber's near cut-off,
the up-sell is easier before than after.

. . . j o n a t h a n

-Original Message-
From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] On
Behalf Of Matt Liotta
Sent: Wednesday, December 27, 2006 4:08 PM
To: WISPA General List
Subject: Re: [WISPA] bits per mbps

Jonathan Schmidt wrote:
 True, Matt, often a better way.

 Now, what to do with P2P abusers?
   
Sell them more bandwidth?

-Matt

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RE: [WISPA] bits per mbps

2006-12-27 Thread CHUCK PROFITO
John, will this code say any thing I want it to, like pay up or else  If
you sell it, any deals for members?
Chuck 

-Original Message-
From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] On
Behalf Of Jonathan Schmidt
Sent: Wednesday, December 27, 2006 3:12 PM
To: 'WISPA General List'
Subject: RE: [WISPA] bits per mbps


Wow, Matt, you're well equipped with the good ideas.
In fact, we make a targeted messaging product that inserts a toolbar-like,
unobtrusive message into subscriber browsers display.  TVCABO bought it to
deploy all over Portugal...primarily to upsell their subscribers nearing
their byte cap limit.

I've seen several comments on the WISPA list that generally are very hostel
to byte cap subscriptions but that is more the rule than the exception in
Europe and Latin America we've found and, when a subscriber's near cut-off,
the up-sell is easier before than after.

. . . j o n a t h a n

-Original Message-
From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] On
Behalf Of Matt Liotta
Sent: Wednesday, December 27, 2006 4:08 PM
To: WISPA General List
Subject: Re: [WISPA] bits per mbps

Jonathan Schmidt wrote:
 True, Matt, often a better way.

 Now, what to do with P2P abusers?
   
Sell them more bandwidth?

-Matt

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RE: [WISPA] bits per mbps

2006-12-27 Thread Jonathan Schmidt
Chuck, maybe that's ...sort of...well, the American spirit.  I'd rather
anything than a rope around me.  I pay $6/mo., or more, to my VoIP provider
so that I have no limit on calls (to Europe or Asia!) rather than have to
pay a couple cents a minute over 500 minutes a month.  OK, so $22 vs. $16
isn't a big deal, but it demonstrates my point.

I know I'm losing.  But, I can't stand thinking about it.  So, I pay for
unlimited time. 

Perhaps that's why the unlimited Internet byte access is more interesting
here to subscribers than in Europe or Latin America.

Who knows?  I get mad just thinking about it and feel better knowing that
it's not a problem for me...I pay and feel unconstrained.  A simple $6 is
certainly cheaper than a psychiatrist for five minutes.  Come to think of
it, that won't even buy 5 minutes from one of them.  Such a deal!

Anyway, it's an interesting difference between the cultures as to what is a
comfortable subscription plan.

. . . j o n a t h a n

-Original Message-
From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] On
Behalf Of CHUCK PROFITO
Sent: Wednesday, December 27, 2006 8:16 PM
To: 'WISPA General List'
Subject: RE: [WISPA] bits per mbps

John, will this code say any thing I want it to, like pay up or else  If
you sell it, any deals for members?
Chuck 

-Original Message-
From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] On
Behalf Of Jonathan Schmidt
Sent: Wednesday, December 27, 2006 3:12 PM
To: 'WISPA General List'
Subject: RE: [WISPA] bits per mbps


Wow, Matt, you're well equipped with the good ideas.
In fact, we make a targeted messaging product that inserts a toolbar-like,
unobtrusive message into subscriber browsers display.  TVCABO bought it to
deploy all over Portugal...primarily to upsell their subscribers nearing
their byte cap limit.

I've seen several comments on the WISPA list that generally are very hostel
to byte cap subscriptions but that is more the rule than the exception in
Europe and Latin America we've found and, when a subscriber's near cut-off,
the up-sell is easier before than after.

. . . j o n a t h a n

-Original Message-
From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] On
Behalf Of Matt Liotta
Sent: Wednesday, December 27, 2006 4:08 PM
To: WISPA General List
Subject: Re: [WISPA] bits per mbps

Jonathan Schmidt wrote:
 True, Matt, often a better way.

 Now, what to do with P2P abusers?
   
Sell them more bandwidth?

-Matt

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No virus found in this incoming message.
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Version: 7.5.432 / Virus Database: 268.15.28/605 - Release Date: 12/27/2006
12:21 PM
 

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Checked by AVG Free Edition.
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12:21 PM
 

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Re: [WISPA] bits per mbps

2006-12-26 Thread Marlon K. Schafer (509) 982-2181


Marlon
(509) 982-2181   Equipment sales
(408) 907-6910 (Vonage)Consulting services
42846865 (icq)And I run my own wisp!
[EMAIL PROTECTED]
www.odessaoffice.com/wireless
www.odessaoffice.com/marlon/cam



- Original Message - 
From: George Rogato [EMAIL PROTECTED]

To: WISPA General List wireless@wispa.org
Sent: Friday, December 22, 2006 2:38 PM
Subject: Re: [WISPA] bits per mbps



But a cahing server if you can't afford the bandwidth.
Seriously, your model, the old model, is about dead and buried.


Cache serves are great.  When I used to use one it saved me about 25% on my 
bandwidth costs.  We tried to do this with the MT routers, but they actually 
seemed to slow things down.  I know that they (and Butch) claimed it was 
really faster.  However, the look and feel was noticably slower, and 
perception sometimes trumps reality.  I've been thinking of putting some in 
again.




How much does it cost to watch a movie across the net using your system?


No idea.  But it's an up and coming reality.  I see it as having an even 
bigger impact on the network than Napster did.  And this time, there's cool 
new technology anyone's going to be able to move to to help deal with the 
usage issues.  AND bandwidth costs don't seem to be sliding down much, if at 
all, these days.  The last 12 to 18 months seem to have stablized things, at 
least around here.





  Just be glad you aren't a  competitor of mine.

Wrong answer, It should be the other way around. Because we don't bit 
charge, we manage our network to accomadate our users needs.
I would imagine that if you were here telling your subs that they had to 
pay more, they would be coming this way.


Yeppers.  They can and they will.  But not all of them.  Only the bandwidth 
hogs.


Look at it like this, choke a customer to 512k instead of 2000k.  Is that 
customer going to do any less on the network?  Nope.  He's gonna do what he 
wanted to do all alone.  It'll just take him longer.


I've got almost 400 broadband users on my network.  At 512k that means I'd 
need 200ish mbps to take care of them if they all used it all the time. 
Instead, we're actually averaging about 1.5 in, .5 out on the main site.  .8 
in and .2 out here in Odessa.  So my 400 broadband users are averaging 2.5 
megs in and 1 out.  That's a LOT better than even the 10 megs you'll need if 
my top ten users move to your service.


AND when selling speed, you are in direct competion with the companies that 
own the bulk of the network.  Who wants to try to compete agains the telco 
or the cable co?  Yikes.


Just for kicks, lets look at the last 7 days here on my network:
Odessa:
 Max In:  3.18 Mb  Average In:  1.22 Mb  Current In:  1.02 Mb
 Max Out:  737.05 Kb  Average Out:  275.54 Kb  Current Out:  172.59 Kb


Ephrata:
 Max In:  6.53 Mb  Average In:  1.69 Mb  Current In:  2.04 Mb
 Max Out:  2.35 Mb  Average Out:  479.40 Kb  Current Out:  823.21 Kb


So, even at this rate, I'm still on track for a max usage of 400 users vs. 
your 20 users at 512k.


AND I don't HAVE to try to provide that 512k for all of my users.  Sure they 
expect that today, heck, many get mad when they don't see the 2000k they 
usually do.  I can honestly tell them that I'm not selling speed.  I'm 
selling capacity.  For me, adding speed is fairly cheap.  Adding capacity 
costs too much.




I'm not scared of my subs usage, I've been building out specifically for 
their future high usage needs.


You should be scared of this.  At some point you'll have to put a limit on 
them.  Ever figured out how many 128k users it takes to tie up a $500 per 
month t-1???  At $30 to $40 per month the numbers just don't work.


Now, don't go telling me about your amazing $20 per mbps bandwith deal. 
Cause we BOTH know that it's not really costing you that.  There are also 
transport fees etc. that have to be figured in to get an apples to apples 
comparison.  Sure I pay $200 per meg of usage here in Odessa.  But I also 
pay $800 per month for the circuit that'll carry those megs!




Bottom line, you need to get over the hump of not having enough subs to 
pay for the extra bandwidth where you can get a much better per meg rate.


Get more subs!


Grin.  working on it!



George


Right now, we have 9 users over 10 gigs per month.
That means that 5% of my customers are more than, much more than, 5% of 
my bw costs.  The average person is using less than 2 gigs.


Worst of all, the OTHER customers on the towers that the highest of the 
high end users are calling about bad service.


Soo000, how would you like to be a competitor here, knowing that I'm 
gonna give you the highest of the bw hogs?  What are YOU gonna do to stay 
in business?


laters,
Marlon
(509) 982-2181   Equipment sales
(408) 907-6910 (Vonage)Consulting services
42846865 (icq

Re: [WISPA] bits per mbps

2006-12-26 Thread Marlon K. Schafer (509) 982-2181

I have two things in place right now.
MRTG type data coming right off of the routers.
http://64.146.186.1:81/graphs/iface/eth1-upstream/
http://64.146.146.1:81/graphs/iface/eth1%2Duplink/

And, I have a cool bit tracking program that uses the netflow data generated 
by my routers.

http://radius.odessaoffice.com/iptrack/topusers.php

The next upgrade I'll get will be a column added to the stats so that I can 
see the top 5 or 10 ports that each customer uses each day.  I'll know a lot 
more about what they are doing when I get that data.


Marlon
(509) 982-2181   Equipment sales
(408) 907-6910 (Vonage)Consulting services
42846865 (icq)And I run my own wisp!
[EMAIL PROTECTED]
www.odessaoffice.com/wireless
www.odessaoffice.com/marlon/cam



- Original Message - 
From: Andrew Niemantsverdriet [EMAIL PROTECTED]

To: WISPA General List wireless@wispa.org
Sent: Friday, December 22, 2006 3:08 PM
Subject: Re: [WISPA] bits per mbps



How are you guys tracking usage? What program are you using to measure
it and are you measureing every bit or an average?

On 12/22/06, Tom DeReggi [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote:
I have not had the guts to do what Marlon does. But that doesn't mean 
there

isn't merit in his method.
Part of the reason is we put in place technology that allows the use of
available bandwdith with limited impact to other users, therefore taking
away some of the need to charge for it, if it was jsut going unused any 
way.
in otherwords Bandwdith allocated on a fair weighted queuing priority 
basis.


The advatnage of Marlon's model, is he has the data to pick and chose
customers. The high bandwdith hogs gets given to the competition or pay.
The second a network starts reaching capacity and the market penetration
doesn't, it becomes feasible to be happy not keeping all customers, 
instead

you pick the most profitable customers.  The facts are the the network
supports it or it doesn't, the provider can afford to upgrade or they 
can't.

What I'm learning is, selling 10mbps peak speeds allows you to play the
Comcast game, and beat them at it.

I'm selling unlimited now, but its important to track the usage. That 
might
have to change, as people start using the links to replace their VCRs. 
The
reality is, eventuality one will have to port limit or charge per bit. 
I'm
jsut avoiding that day until it has to happen, so I don't lose customers 
for

the greater good, unless I have to.

Tom DeReggi
RapidDSL  Wireless, Inc
IntAirNet- Fixed Wireless Broadband


- Original Message -
From: David E. Smith [EMAIL PROTECTED]
To: WISPA General List wireless@wispa.org
Sent: Friday, December 22, 2006 4:42 PM
Subject: Re: [WISPA] bits per mbps


 Marlon K. Schafer (509) 982-2181 wrote:

 First, I have to figure out how many kbps a gig of download would be.
 Specifically, I've got a couple of customers doing 50 gigs per month.
 How many kbps does it take to generate that?

 Assuming a month is 30 days (nice round number), 50GB/month is about
 161kbps, all the time. That's the equivalent of, say, leaving a
 high-quality streaming radio station running, or a low-quality video
 feed like gbs.tv.

 I'm staying out of the rest of the discussion, because I'm violently
 allergic to pay-by-the-bit pricing. It may make good sense to the
 bookkeeper, but with streaming media (YouTube, Google Video), big
 downloadable media (iTunes movies, Amazon Unbox), and giant software
 downloads (World of Warcraft and just about every other MMORPG) 
 becoming

 more prevalent, I think it's just gonna seriously annoy your users in
 the long term.

 David Smith
 MVN.net
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RE: [WISPA] bits per mbps

2006-12-26 Thread Jeff Broadwick
Are you paying extra for bursting, or just the overall bandwidth used? 

-Original Message-
From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] On
Behalf Of Marlon K. Schafer (509) 982-2181
Sent: Tuesday, December 26, 2006 1:06 PM
To: WISPA General List
Subject: Re: [WISPA] bits per mbps


Marlon
(509) 982-2181   Equipment sales
(408) 907-6910 (Vonage)Consulting services
42846865 (icq)And I run my own wisp!
[EMAIL PROTECTED]
www.odessaoffice.com/wireless
www.odessaoffice.com/marlon/cam



- Original Message -
From: George Rogato [EMAIL PROTECTED]
To: WISPA General List wireless@wispa.org
Sent: Friday, December 22, 2006 2:38 PM
Subject: Re: [WISPA] bits per mbps


 But a cahing server if you can't afford the bandwidth.
 Seriously, your model, the old model, is about dead and buried.

Cache serves are great.  When I used to use one it saved me about 25% on my 
bandwidth costs.  We tried to do this with the MT routers, but they actually

seemed to slow things down.  I know that they (and Butch) claimed it was 
really faster.  However, the look and feel was noticably slower, and 
perception sometimes trumps reality.  I've been thinking of putting some in 
again.


 How much does it cost to watch a movie across the net using your system?

No idea.  But it's an up and coming reality.  I see it as having an even 
bigger impact on the network than Napster did.  And this time, there's cool 
new technology anyone's going to be able to move to to help deal with the 
usage issues.  AND bandwidth costs don't seem to be sliding down much, if at

all, these days.  The last 12 to 18 months seem to have stablized things, at

least around here.



   Just be glad you aren't a  competitor of mine.

 Wrong answer, It should be the other way around. Because we don't bit 
 charge, we manage our network to accomadate our users needs.
 I would imagine that if you were here telling your subs that they had to 
 pay more, they would be coming this way.

Yeppers.  They can and they will.  But not all of them.  Only the bandwidth 
hogs.

Look at it like this, choke a customer to 512k instead of 2000k.  Is that 
customer going to do any less on the network?  Nope.  He's gonna do what he 
wanted to do all alone.  It'll just take him longer.

I've got almost 400 broadband users on my network.  At 512k that means I'd 
need 200ish mbps to take care of them if they all used it all the time. 
Instead, we're actually averaging about 1.5 in, .5 out on the main site.  .8

in and .2 out here in Odessa.  So my 400 broadband users are averaging 2.5 
megs in and 1 out.  That's a LOT better than even the 10 megs you'll need if

my top ten users move to your service.

AND when selling speed, you are in direct competion with the companies that 
own the bulk of the network.  Who wants to try to compete agains the telco 
or the cable co?  Yikes.

Just for kicks, lets look at the last 7 days here on my network:
Odessa:
  Max In:  3.18 Mb  Average In:  1.22 Mb  Current In:  1.02 Mb
  Max Out:  737.05 Kb  Average Out:  275.54 Kb  Current Out:  172.59 Kb


Ephrata:
  Max In:  6.53 Mb  Average In:  1.69 Mb  Current In:  2.04 Mb
  Max Out:  2.35 Mb  Average Out:  479.40 Kb  Current Out:  823.21 Kb


So, even at this rate, I'm still on track for a max usage of 400 users vs. 
your 20 users at 512k.

AND I don't HAVE to try to provide that 512k for all of my users.  Sure they

expect that today, heck, many get mad when they don't see the 2000k they 
usually do.  I can honestly tell them that I'm not selling speed.  I'm 
selling capacity.  For me, adding speed is fairly cheap.  Adding capacity 
costs too much.


 I'm not scared of my subs usage, I've been building out specifically for 
 their future high usage needs.

You should be scared of this.  At some point you'll have to put a limit on 
them.  Ever figured out how many 128k users it takes to tie up a $500 per 
month t-1???  At $30 to $40 per month the numbers just don't work.

Now, don't go telling me about your amazing $20 per mbps bandwith deal. 
Cause we BOTH know that it's not really costing you that.  There are also 
transport fees etc. that have to be figured in to get an apples to apples 
comparison.  Sure I pay $200 per meg of usage here in Odessa.  But I also 
pay $800 per month for the circuit that'll carry those megs!


 Bottom line, you need to get over the hump of not having enough subs to 
 pay for the extra bandwidth where you can get a much better per meg rate.

 Get more subs!

Grin.  working on it!


 George


 Right now, we have 9 users over 10 gigs per month.
 That means that 5% of my customers are more than, much more than, 5% of 
 my bw costs.  The average person is using less than 2 gigs.

 Worst of all, the OTHER customers on the towers that the highest of the 
 high end users are calling about bad service.

 Soo000, how would you like to be a competitor here

Re: [WISPA] bits per mbps

2006-12-26 Thread Marlon K. Schafer (509) 982-2181

Thanks!  To you and your's too!

Yeah, I'm working on it.  Right now we're in talks with the heavy users to 
see what  amounts won't run them off but will make up the difference 
between the 4 gig included model and what they are really consuming.


I'm sure we'll run some off.  But the goal isn't to chase them away.  It's 
really to get them paying for what they are really using.  Best of both 
worlds.  Keep the customer and upsell them based on real world data.


Those that won't upsell, will move to someone else and totally screw up the 
customers on their ap's and their bandwidth needs.


In the end, my customers win.

See how clever I really am?  I've got some folks here arguing about black 
and white.  All the while I'm working in shades of the rainbow!  I'd better 
remember that next time I let myself get sucked into a my dad can beat up 
your dad argument!  hehehehe


Marlon
(509) 982-2181   Equipment sales
(408) 907-6910 (Vonage)Consulting services
42846865 (icq)And I run my own wisp!
[EMAIL PROTECTED]
www.odessaoffice.com/wireless
www.odessaoffice.com/marlon/cam



- Original Message - 
From: [EMAIL PROTECTED]

To: WISPA General List wireless@wispa.org
Sent: Friday, December 22, 2006 6:46 PM
Subject: Re: [WISPA] bits per mbps



Hi Marlon,

Merry Christmas to you and your family!

Just a thought, you might want to fire those 9 customers.

You could also rate-limit them down to 56K and see how long they stick 
around.

Jeff

-Original Message-

From:  Marlon K. Schafer (509) 982-2181 [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Subj:  Re: [WISPA] bits per mbps
Date:  Fri Dec 22, 2006 5:29 pm
Size:  3K
To:  WISPA General List wireless@wispa.org

Cause it takes just 9 uers at 50 gigs per month to double my BW costs.

At $35 per month in service fees, the 50 gig user chews up more than 10% 
of

my costs.

He needs to pay more.

Or, he needs to get his service from you.  Just be glad you aren't a
competitor of mine.  Right now, we have 9 users over 10 gigs per month.
That means that 5% of my customers are more than, much more than, 5% of my
bw costs.  The average person is using less than 2 gigs.

Worst of all, the OTHER customers on the towers that the highest of the 
high

end users are calling about bad service.

Soo000, how would you like to be a competitor here, knowing that I'm gonna
give you the highest of the bw hogs?  What are YOU gonna do to stay in
business?

laters,
Marlon
(509) 982-2181   Equipment sales
(408) 907-6910 (Vonage)Consulting services
42846865 (icq)And I run my own wisp!
[EMAIL PROTECTED]
www.odessaoffice.com/wireless
www.odessaoffice.com/marlon/cam



- Original Message - 
From: George Rogato [EMAIL PROTECTED]

To: WISPA General List wireless@wispa.org
Sent: Friday, December 22, 2006 1:45 PM
Subject: Re: [WISPA] bits per mbps


Guess it cmes down to what you are selling and what does it cost you to 
do

business.

First f, you are selling a simle internet conection for a casual user. If
you want you can squeeze them fr every little bit.

I wonder why you have to charge them more, if you are being billed at the
95%

My understanding is the 95 percentile is a snap shot at peak time and the
top 5% lobbed of to come up with your usage. What this means to me is 
that

on wed evening at 8PM when you hit 9.543megs a second which is your
highest usage, could be sunday morning or friday evening for that matter,
they call that the peak and lob off 5% and bill you there.

So on monday morning when you are going 4.5 or 2.2MBPS or sat evening 
when

you hit 5 or 6 megs, there is no difference in cost to you. t's all under
the peak.

So why bother unless your true goal is to figure out how hard you can
squeeze you sub. Which is not right or wrong, just your business not any
ones elses.

I have a sub that uploads a 250 meg file twice a day to my server and 
does

this every day.
If he was your sub how much would you charge them?

George


Marlon K. Schafer (509) 982-2181 wrote:

Hi All,

OK, so now that we know who our heavy users are I have to come up with a
couple of things.

First, I have to figure out how many kbps a gig of download would be.
Specifically, I've got a couple of customers doing 50 gigs per month.
How many kbps does it take to generate that?

We pay for our internet based on kbps.

Next, what do we do for an overage fee?  Currently it's set as $5 for 
the

first gig, $10 for the second, $20 for the third etc.  At 25 gigs the
customer has a $5,000,000 bill.  Sure that'll run off the abusers, but
I'd rather find a more reasonable way to bill them.

We have a business customer that legitimately uses 40 to 50 gig per


--- message truncated ---


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Re: [WISPA] bits per mbps

2006-12-26 Thread Marlon K. Schafer (509) 982-2181

Thanks Jeff,

We're looking at those models right now.

The one that's already in place is 60 gigs for $350.  Looks like 10 gigs 
will go to $100.  And something similar in the middle.


Marlon
(509) 982-2181   Equipment sales
(408) 907-6910 (Vonage)Consulting services
42846865 (icq)And I run my own wisp!
[EMAIL PROTECTED]
www.odessaoffice.com/wireless
www.odessaoffice.com/marlon/cam



- Original Message - 
From: John Thomas [EMAIL PROTECTED]

To: WISPA General List wireless@wispa.org
Sent: Sunday, December 24, 2006 9:35 PM
Subject: Re: [WISPA] bits per mbps


Marlon , why the additive pricing for additional Gigs? Why wouldn't you 
just charge x$ per gig, since that is essentially what you are being 
charged by your upstream. If someone is using an average of 161 kbps 
constantly for a month, that sounds a lot like a T-1. Speakeasy is doing 
T-1s to the Internet for $399, others are doing SDSL at $250-299 per 
month, so if you are in the neighborhood, that should be expected. Anothe 
thing to think about is tiering your pricing


4 Gigs$49
10 Gigs  $99
50 Gigs   $299

or something like that.

John Thomas


Marlon K. Schafer (509) 982-2181 wrote:

Hi All,

OK, so now that we know who our heavy users are I have to come up with a 
couple of things.


First, I have to figure out how many kbps a gig of download would be. 
Specifically, I've got a couple of customers doing 50 gigs per month. 
How many kbps does it take to generate that?


We pay for our internet based on kbps.

Next, what do we do for an overage fee?  Currently it's set as $5 for the 
first gig, $10 for the second, $20 for the third etc.  At 25 gigs the 
customer has a $5,000,000 bill.  Sure that'll run off the abusers, but 
I'd rather find a more reasonable way to bill them.


We have a business customer that legitimately uses 40 to 50 gig per 
month. We just moved them from $75 to $350 per month (matched the t-1 
price they pay in another town).  They don't feel abused and I feel more 
comfortable about their usage.  We bumped them up to 60 gigs included.


I have another customer that's at 10 gigs now (our included limit is 4). 
We talked about an appropriate rate of increase.  Under our standard 
levels, they'd more than double their bill.  If we hit them with a couple 
of hundred in billing they'd go elsewhere.  We would, however, like to 
dig a little bit deeper into their back pocket.  I talked with them a bit 
about our need to recover costs based on their usage etc.


They said if we hit $100 to $125 they'd not have a problem with that.

On our end we have two problems.  One, we pay for internet based on 
usage. The more they use the more we pay.  Our costs were up 15% last 
month.  The other, maybe worse issue, is that we have to increase the 
capacity to towers that have heavy users on them.  Possibly to the point 
of a dedicated ap to cover just a customer or three.  Now we're really 
talking bucks and spectrum issues etc.


My original idea was that if a person went over by a gig or two we'd ding 
them a few dollars as a shot across the bow kind of thing.  Around 50 
of our 400 users are going over the new 4 gig level though.  Some will 
fix that by getting postini and dropping the spam.  Some will fix that by 
getting the kids to turn off the file sharing programs.  And some are 
legitimately using that much data.


In the end, we don't want to run off people if we can help it.  Those at 
the 30 to 50 gig level will probably leave us for other services, but 
that's gonna be ok.  They mess things up for everyone around them. 
Better that my competitors have customers like that than we do.  For all 
of the rest, we need to recover our costs, and hopefully make a little 
extra money on them.


S, my new idea is, gigs 5 through 10 would be at $5 per month.  Gigs 
10 through 20 at $10 per gig.  Over 20, call for a price and we'll work 
something out that works for all of us.  We really need it to naturally 
hit around $350 at the 50 gig level to match what we did with the first 
big customer.


Thougths

Marlon
(509) 982-2181   Equipment sales
(408) 907-6910 (Vonage)Consulting services
42846865 (icq)And I run my own wisp!
[EMAIL PROTECTED]
www.odessaoffice.com/wireless
www.odessaoffice.com/marlon/cam






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Re: [WISPA] bits per mbps

2006-12-26 Thread Butch Evans

On Tue, 26 Dec 2006, Marlon K. Schafer (509) 982-2181 wrote:


I know that they (and Butch) claimed it was


No...I think you are confusing me with someone else.  :-)  I have 
told MANY people that proxy service on MT is riddled with problems, 
not the least of which is speed.  One of the first things you had me 
help you with was removing the proxy server on the MT.


Having said that, it is possible to build a squid proxy (outside the 
MT) that can actually make things faster.  But, as you said, 
perception will be that it is slower (sometimes), so the reality 
isn't relevant.


--
Butch Evans
Network Engineering and Security Consulting
573-276-2879
http://www.butchevans.com/
Mikrotik Certified Consultant
(http://www.mikrotik.com/consultants.html)
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RE: [WISPA] bits per mbps

2006-12-26 Thread Jeff Broadwick
Do you have the option of changing to a service where you pay a certain
amount per month for a certain amount of bandwidth, and then have the
capability to burst beyond that for an additional price?

In that model, QoS becomes critical and you can limit your customers based
upon their rate-class and either deny or very carefully measure how much you
burst.

Jeff
 

-Original Message-
From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] On
Behalf Of Marlon K. Schafer (509) 982-2181
Sent: Tuesday, December 26, 2006 1:16 PM
To: WISPA General List
Subject: Re: [WISPA] bits per mbps

Thanks!  To you and your's too!

Yeah, I'm working on it.  Right now we're in talks with the heavy users to
see what  amounts won't run them off but will make up the difference
between the 4 gig included model and what they are really consuming.

I'm sure we'll run some off.  But the goal isn't to chase them away.  It's
really to get them paying for what they are really using.  Best of both
worlds.  Keep the customer and upsell them based on real world data.

Those that won't upsell, will move to someone else and totally screw up the
customers on their ap's and their bandwidth needs.

In the end, my customers win.

See how clever I really am?  I've got some folks here arguing about black
and white.  All the while I'm working in shades of the rainbow!  I'd better
remember that next time I let myself get sucked into a my dad can beat up
your dad argument!  hehehehe

Marlon
(509) 982-2181   Equipment sales
(408) 907-6910 (Vonage)Consulting services
42846865 (icq)And I run my own wisp!
[EMAIL PROTECTED]
www.odessaoffice.com/wireless
www.odessaoffice.com/marlon/cam



- Original Message -
From: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
To: WISPA General List wireless@wispa.org
Sent: Friday, December 22, 2006 6:46 PM
Subject: Re: [WISPA] bits per mbps


 Hi Marlon,

 Merry Christmas to you and your family!

 Just a thought, you might want to fire those 9 customers.

 You could also rate-limit them down to 56K and see how long they stick 
 around.
 Jeff

 -Original Message-

 From:  Marlon K. Schafer (509) 982-2181 [EMAIL PROTECTED]
 Subj:  Re: [WISPA] bits per mbps
 Date:  Fri Dec 22, 2006 5:29 pm
 Size:  3K
 To:  WISPA General List wireless@wispa.org

 Cause it takes just 9 uers at 50 gigs per month to double my BW costs.

 At $35 per month in service fees, the 50 gig user chews up more than 10% 
 of
 my costs.

 He needs to pay more.

 Or, he needs to get his service from you.  Just be glad you aren't a
 competitor of mine.  Right now, we have 9 users over 10 gigs per month.
 That means that 5% of my customers are more than, much more than, 5% of my
 bw costs.  The average person is using less than 2 gigs.

 Worst of all, the OTHER customers on the towers that the highest of the 
 high
 end users are calling about bad service.

 Soo000, how would you like to be a competitor here, knowing that I'm gonna
 give you the highest of the bw hogs?  What are YOU gonna do to stay in
 business?

 laters,
 Marlon
 (509) 982-2181   Equipment sales
 (408) 907-6910 (Vonage)Consulting services
 42846865 (icq)And I run my own wisp!
 [EMAIL PROTECTED]
 www.odessaoffice.com/wireless
 www.odessaoffice.com/marlon/cam



 - Original Message - 
 From: George Rogato [EMAIL PROTECTED]
 To: WISPA General List wireless@wispa.org
 Sent: Friday, December 22, 2006 1:45 PM
 Subject: Re: [WISPA] bits per mbps


 Guess it cmes down to what you are selling and what does it cost you to 
 do
 business.

 First f, you are selling a simle internet conection for a casual user. If
 you want you can squeeze them fr every little bit.

 I wonder why you have to charge them more, if you are being billed at the
 95%

 My understanding is the 95 percentile is a snap shot at peak time and the
 top 5% lobbed of to come up with your usage. What this means to me is 
 that
 on wed evening at 8PM when you hit 9.543megs a second which is your
 highest usage, could be sunday morning or friday evening for that matter,
 they call that the peak and lob off 5% and bill you there.

 So on monday morning when you are going 4.5 or 2.2MBPS or sat evening 
 when
 you hit 5 or 6 megs, there is no difference in cost to you. t's all under
 the peak.

 So why bother unless your true goal is to figure out how hard you can
 squeeze you sub. Which is not right or wrong, just your business not any
 ones elses.

 I have a sub that uploads a 250 meg file twice a day to my server and 
 does
 this every day.
 If he was your sub how much would you charge them?

 George


 Marlon K. Schafer (509) 982-2181 wrote:
 Hi All,

 OK, so now that we know who our heavy users are I have to come up with a
 couple of things.

 First, I have to figure out how many kbps a gig of download would be.
 Specifically, I've got a couple of customers

Re: [WISPA] bits per mbps

2006-12-26 Thread Marlon K. Schafer (509) 982-2181
It's designed to burst.  That gives us a relatively low monthly cost with 
really fast service.


So we pay based on usage.  But it can, and does, burst very high.

Marlon
(509) 982-2181   Equipment sales
(408) 907-6910 (Vonage)Consulting services
42846865 (icq)And I run my own wisp!
[EMAIL PROTECTED]
www.odessaoffice.com/wireless
www.odessaoffice.com/marlon/cam



- Original Message - 
From: Jeff Broadwick [EMAIL PROTECTED]

To: 'WISPA General List' wireless@wispa.org
Sent: Tuesday, December 26, 2006 10:09 AM
Subject: RE: [WISPA] bits per mbps



Are you paying extra for bursting, or just the overall bandwidth used?

-Original Message-
From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] On
Behalf Of Marlon K. Schafer (509) 982-2181
Sent: Tuesday, December 26, 2006 1:06 PM
To: WISPA General List
Subject: Re: [WISPA] bits per mbps


Marlon
(509) 982-2181   Equipment sales
(408) 907-6910 (Vonage)Consulting services
42846865 (icq)And I run my own wisp!
[EMAIL PROTECTED]
www.odessaoffice.com/wireless
www.odessaoffice.com/marlon/cam



- Original Message -
From: George Rogato [EMAIL PROTECTED]
To: WISPA General List wireless@wispa.org
Sent: Friday, December 22, 2006 2:38 PM
Subject: Re: [WISPA] bits per mbps



But a cahing server if you can't afford the bandwidth.
Seriously, your model, the old model, is about dead and buried.


Cache serves are great.  When I used to use one it saved me about 25% on 
my
bandwidth costs.  We tried to do this with the MT routers, but they 
actually


seemed to slow things down.  I know that they (and Butch) claimed it was
really faster.  However, the look and feel was noticably slower, and
perception sometimes trumps reality.  I've been thinking of putting some 
in

again.



How much does it cost to watch a movie across the net using your system?


No idea.  But it's an up and coming reality.  I see it as having an even
bigger impact on the network than Napster did.  And this time, there's 
cool

new technology anyone's going to be able to move to to help deal with the
usage issues.  AND bandwidth costs don't seem to be sliding down much, if 
at


all, these days.  The last 12 to 18 months seem to have stablized things, 
at


least around here.




  Just be glad you aren't a  competitor of mine.

Wrong answer, It should be the other way around. Because we don't bit
charge, we manage our network to accomadate our users needs.
I would imagine that if you were here telling your subs that they had to
pay more, they would be coming this way.


Yeppers.  They can and they will.  But not all of them.  Only the 
bandwidth

hogs.

Look at it like this, choke a customer to 512k instead of 2000k.  Is that
customer going to do any less on the network?  Nope.  He's gonna do what 
he

wanted to do all alone.  It'll just take him longer.

I've got almost 400 broadband users on my network.  At 512k that means I'd
need 200ish mbps to take care of them if they all used it all the time.
Instead, we're actually averaging about 1.5 in, .5 out on the main site. 
.8


in and .2 out here in Odessa.  So my 400 broadband users are averaging 2.5
megs in and 1 out.  That's a LOT better than even the 10 megs you'll need 
if


my top ten users move to your service.

AND when selling speed, you are in direct competion with the companies 
that

own the bulk of the network.  Who wants to try to compete agains the telco
or the cable co?  Yikes.

Just for kicks, lets look at the last 7 days here on my network:
Odessa:
 Max In:  3.18 Mb  Average In:  1.22 Mb  Current In:  1.02 Mb
 Max Out:  737.05 Kb  Average Out:  275.54 Kb  Current Out:  172.59 Kb


Ephrata:
 Max In:  6.53 Mb  Average In:  1.69 Mb  Current In:  2.04 Mb
 Max Out:  2.35 Mb  Average Out:  479.40 Kb  Current Out:  823.21 Kb


So, even at this rate, I'm still on track for a max usage of 400 users vs.
your 20 users at 512k.

AND I don't HAVE to try to provide that 512k for all of my users.  Sure 
they


expect that today, heck, many get mad when they don't see the 2000k they
usually do.  I can honestly tell them that I'm not selling speed.  I'm
selling capacity.  For me, adding speed is fairly cheap.  Adding capacity
costs too much.



I'm not scared of my subs usage, I've been building out specifically for
their future high usage needs.


You should be scared of this.  At some point you'll have to put a limit on
them.  Ever figured out how many 128k users it takes to tie up a $500 per
month t-1???  At $30 to $40 per month the numbers just don't work.

Now, don't go telling me about your amazing $20 per mbps bandwith deal.
Cause we BOTH know that it's not really costing you that.  There are also
transport fees etc. that have to be figured in to get an apples to apples
comparison.  Sure I pay $200 per meg of usage here in Odessa

Re: [WISPA] bits per mbps

2006-12-26 Thread Marlon K. Schafer (509) 982-2181


- Original Message - 
From: Butch Evans [EMAIL PROTECTED]

To: WISPA General List wireless@wispa.org
Sent: Tuesday, December 26, 2006 10:37 AM
Subject: Re: [WISPA] bits per mbps



On Tue, 26 Dec 2006, Marlon K. Schafer (509) 982-2181 wrote:


I know that they (and Butch) claimed it was


No...I think you are confusing me with someone else.  :-)  I have told 
MANY people that proxy service on MT is riddled with problems, not the 
least of which is speed.  One of the first things you had me help you with 
was removing the proxy server on the MT.


Yeah, I know you took it off for me.  As I recall the conversation you said 
that we could do some testing that would show that it really did speed 
things up.  But it also caused a delay when the page was starting to load 
and that made it feel slower.


Did I get this wrong?



Having said that, it is possible to build a squid proxy (outside the MT) 
that can actually make things faster.  But, as you said, perception will 
be that it is slower (sometimes), so the reality isn't relevant.


--
Butch Evans
Network Engineering and Security Consulting
573-276-2879
http://www.butchevans.com/
Mikrotik Certified Consultant
(http://www.mikrotik.com/consultants.html)
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Re: [WISPA] bits per mbps

2006-12-26 Thread Marlon K. Schafer (509) 982-2181


- Original Message - 
From: Jeff Broadwick [EMAIL PROTECTED]

To: 'WISPA General List' wireless@wispa.org
Sent: Tuesday, December 26, 2006 10:30 AM
Subject: RE: [WISPA] bits per mbps



Do you have the option of changing to a service where you pay a certain
amount per month for a certain amount of bandwidth, and then have the
capability to burst beyond that for an additional price?


At one location, maybe.  At the other one, no.

Realistically, what we're doing is working very well for us.  I just need to 
find a way to deal with some over the top users.  And EVERYONE has to deal 
with them in one way or another.  I'm trying to be a bit more creative 
maybe.




In that model, QoS becomes critical and you can limit your customers based
upon their rate-class and either deny or very carefully measure how much 
you

burst.

Jeff


-Original Message-
From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] On
Behalf Of Marlon K. Schafer (509) 982-2181
Sent: Tuesday, December 26, 2006 1:16 PM
To: WISPA General List
Subject: Re: [WISPA] bits per mbps

Thanks!  To you and your's too!

Yeah, I'm working on it.  Right now we're in talks with the heavy users to
see what  amounts won't run them off but will make up the difference
between the 4 gig included model and what they are really consuming.

I'm sure we'll run some off.  But the goal isn't to chase them away.  It's
really to get them paying for what they are really using.  Best of both
worlds.  Keep the customer and upsell them based on real world data.

Those that won't upsell, will move to someone else and totally screw up 
the

customers on their ap's and their bandwidth needs.

In the end, my customers win.

See how clever I really am?  I've got some folks here arguing about black
and white.  All the while I'm working in shades of the rainbow!  I'd 
better

remember that next time I let myself get sucked into a my dad can beat up
your dad argument!  hehehehe

Marlon
(509) 982-2181   Equipment sales
(408) 907-6910 (Vonage)Consulting services
42846865 (icq)And I run my own wisp!
[EMAIL PROTECTED]
www.odessaoffice.com/wireless
www.odessaoffice.com/marlon/cam



- Original Message -
From: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
To: WISPA General List wireless@wispa.org
Sent: Friday, December 22, 2006 6:46 PM
Subject: Re: [WISPA] bits per mbps



Hi Marlon,

Merry Christmas to you and your family!

Just a thought, you might want to fire those 9 customers.

You could also rate-limit them down to 56K and see how long they stick
around.
Jeff

-Original Message-

From:  Marlon K. Schafer (509) 982-2181 [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Subj:  Re: [WISPA] bits per mbps
Date:  Fri Dec 22, 2006 5:29 pm
Size:  3K
To:  WISPA General List wireless@wispa.org

Cause it takes just 9 uers at 50 gigs per month to double my BW costs.

At $35 per month in service fees, the 50 gig user chews up more than 10%
of
my costs.

He needs to pay more.

Or, he needs to get his service from you.  Just be glad you aren't a
competitor of mine.  Right now, we have 9 users over 10 gigs per month.
That means that 5% of my customers are more than, much more than, 5% of 
my

bw costs.  The average person is using less than 2 gigs.

Worst of all, the OTHER customers on the towers that the highest of the
high
end users are calling about bad service.

Soo000, how would you like to be a competitor here, knowing that I'm 
gonna

give you the highest of the bw hogs?  What are YOU gonna do to stay in
business?

laters,
Marlon
(509) 982-2181   Equipment sales
(408) 907-6910 (Vonage)Consulting services
42846865 (icq)And I run my own wisp!
[EMAIL PROTECTED]
www.odessaoffice.com/wireless
www.odessaoffice.com/marlon/cam



- Original Message - 
From: George Rogato [EMAIL PROTECTED]

To: WISPA General List wireless@wispa.org
Sent: Friday, December 22, 2006 1:45 PM
Subject: Re: [WISPA] bits per mbps



Guess it cmes down to what you are selling and what does it cost you to
do
business.

First f, you are selling a simle internet conection for a casual user. 
If

you want you can squeeze them fr every little bit.

I wonder why you have to charge them more, if you are being billed at 
the

95%

My understanding is the 95 percentile is a snap shot at peak time and 
the

top 5% lobbed of to come up with your usage. What this means to me is
that
on wed evening at 8PM when you hit 9.543megs a second which is your
highest usage, could be sunday morning or friday evening for that 
matter,

they call that the peak and lob off 5% and bill you there.

So on monday morning when you are going 4.5 or 2.2MBPS or sat evening
when
you hit 5 or 6 megs, there is no difference in cost to you. t's all 
under

the peak.

So why bother unless your true goal is to figure out how hard you can
squeeze you sub. Which is not right or wrong, just your business

RE: [WISPA] bits per mbps

2006-12-26 Thread Jeff Broadwick
You could route your high traffic folks out the one connection, and ratchet
their committed rate down to protect your peak usage periods.  They could
burst when bandwidth was available without hurting you.

Jeff
  

-Original Message-
From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] On
Behalf Of Marlon K. Schafer (509) 982-2181
Sent: Tuesday, December 26, 2006 1:51 PM
To: WISPA General List
Subject: Re: [WISPA] bits per mbps


- Original Message -
From: Jeff Broadwick [EMAIL PROTECTED]
To: 'WISPA General List' wireless@wispa.org
Sent: Tuesday, December 26, 2006 10:30 AM
Subject: RE: [WISPA] bits per mbps


 Do you have the option of changing to a service where you pay a certain
 amount per month for a certain amount of bandwidth, and then have the
 capability to burst beyond that for an additional price?

At one location, maybe.  At the other one, no.

Realistically, what we're doing is working very well for us.  I just need to

find a way to deal with some over the top users.  And EVERYONE has to deal 
with them in one way or another.  I'm trying to be a bit more creative 
maybe.


 In that model, QoS becomes critical and you can limit your customers based
 upon their rate-class and either deny or very carefully measure how much 
 you
 burst.

 Jeff


 -Original Message-
 From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] On
 Behalf Of Marlon K. Schafer (509) 982-2181
 Sent: Tuesday, December 26, 2006 1:16 PM
 To: WISPA General List
 Subject: Re: [WISPA] bits per mbps

 Thanks!  To you and your's too!

 Yeah, I'm working on it.  Right now we're in talks with the heavy users to
 see what  amounts won't run them off but will make up the difference
 between the 4 gig included model and what they are really consuming.

 I'm sure we'll run some off.  But the goal isn't to chase them away.  It's
 really to get them paying for what they are really using.  Best of both
 worlds.  Keep the customer and upsell them based on real world data.

 Those that won't upsell, will move to someone else and totally screw up 
 the
 customers on their ap's and their bandwidth needs.

 In the end, my customers win.

 See how clever I really am?  I've got some folks here arguing about black
 and white.  All the while I'm working in shades of the rainbow!  I'd 
 better
 remember that next time I let myself get sucked into a my dad can beat up
 your dad argument!  hehehehe

 Marlon
 (509) 982-2181   Equipment sales
 (408) 907-6910 (Vonage)Consulting services
 42846865 (icq)And I run my own wisp!
 [EMAIL PROTECTED]
 www.odessaoffice.com/wireless
 www.odessaoffice.com/marlon/cam



 - Original Message -
 From: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
 To: WISPA General List wireless@wispa.org
 Sent: Friday, December 22, 2006 6:46 PM
 Subject: Re: [WISPA] bits per mbps


 Hi Marlon,

 Merry Christmas to you and your family!

 Just a thought, you might want to fire those 9 customers.

 You could also rate-limit them down to 56K and see how long they stick
 around.
 Jeff

 -Original Message-

 From:  Marlon K. Schafer (509) 982-2181 [EMAIL PROTECTED]
 Subj:  Re: [WISPA] bits per mbps
 Date:  Fri Dec 22, 2006 5:29 pm
 Size:  3K
 To:  WISPA General List wireless@wispa.org

 Cause it takes just 9 uers at 50 gigs per month to double my BW costs.

 At $35 per month in service fees, the 50 gig user chews up more than 10%
 of
 my costs.

 He needs to pay more.

 Or, he needs to get his service from you.  Just be glad you aren't a
 competitor of mine.  Right now, we have 9 users over 10 gigs per month.
 That means that 5% of my customers are more than, much more than, 5% of 
 my
 bw costs.  The average person is using less than 2 gigs.

 Worst of all, the OTHER customers on the towers that the highest of the
 high
 end users are calling about bad service.

 Soo000, how would you like to be a competitor here, knowing that I'm 
 gonna
 give you the highest of the bw hogs?  What are YOU gonna do to stay in
 business?

 laters,
 Marlon
 (509) 982-2181   Equipment sales
 (408) 907-6910 (Vonage)Consulting services
 42846865 (icq)And I run my own wisp!
 [EMAIL PROTECTED]
 www.odessaoffice.com/wireless
 www.odessaoffice.com/marlon/cam



 - Original Message - 
 From: George Rogato [EMAIL PROTECTED]
 To: WISPA General List wireless@wispa.org
 Sent: Friday, December 22, 2006 1:45 PM
 Subject: Re: [WISPA] bits per mbps


 Guess it cmes down to what you are selling and what does it cost you to
 do
 business.

 First f, you are selling a simle internet conection for a casual user. 
 If
 you want you can squeeze them fr every little bit.

 I wonder why you have to charge them more, if you are being billed at 
 the
 95%

 My understanding is the 95 percentile is a snap shot at peak time and 
 the
 top 5% lobbed of to come up with your usage. What this means

Re: [WISPA] bits per mbps

2006-12-26 Thread Marlon K. Schafer (509) 982-2181


- Original Message - 
From: George Rogato [EMAIL PROTECTED]

To: WISPA General List wireless@wispa.org
Sent: Tuesday, December 26, 2006 11:44 AM
Subject: Re: [WISPA] bits per mbps



Marlon K. Schafer (509) 982-2181 wrote:

Wrong answer, It should be the other way around. Because we don't bit 
charge, we manage our network to accomadate our users needs.
I would imagine that if you were here telling your subs that they had to 
pay more, they would be coming this way.


Yeppers.  They can and they will.  But not all of them.  Only the 
bandwidth hogs.


Look at it like this, choke a customer to 512k instead of 2000k.  Is that 
customer going to do any less on the network?  Nope.  He's gonna do what 
he wanted to do all alone.  It'll just take him longer.


I've got almost 400 broadband users on my network.  At 512k that means 
I'd need 200ish mbps to take care of them if they all used it all the 
time. Instead, we're actually averaging about 1.5 in, .5 out on the main 
site.  .8 in and .2 out here in Odessa.  So my 400 broadband users are 
averaging 2.5 megs in and 1 out.  That's a LOT better than even the 10 
megs you'll need if my top ten users move to your service.


AND when selling speed, you are in direct competion with the companies 
that own the bulk of the network.  Who wants to try to compete agains the 
telco or the cable co?  Yikes.


Just for kicks, lets look at the last 7 days here on my network:
Odessa:
 Max In:  3.18 Mb  Average In:  1.22 Mb  Current In:  1.02 Mb
 Max Out:  737.05 Kb  Average Out:  275.54 Kb  Current Out:  172.59 
Kb



Ephrata:
 Max In:  6.53 Mb  Average In:  1.69 Mb  Current In:  2.04 Mb
 Max Out:  2.35 Mb  Average Out:  479.40 Kb  Current Out:  823.21 Kb


So, even at this rate, I'm still on track for a max usage of 400 users 
vs. your 20 users at 512k.


AND I don't HAVE to try to provide that 512k for all of my users.  Sure 
they expect that today, heck, many get mad when they don't see the 2000k 
they usually do.  I can honestly tell them that I'm not selling speed. 
I'm selling capacity.  For me, adding speed is fairly cheap.  Adding 
capacity costs too much.




I'm not scared of my subs usage, I've been building out specifically for 
their future high usage needs.


You should be scared of this.  At some point you'll have to put a limit 
on them.  Ever figured out how many 128k users it takes to tie up a $500 
per month t-1???  At $30 to $40 per month the numbers just don't work.


Now, don't go telling me about your amazing $20 per mbps bandwith deal. 
Cause we BOTH know that it's not really costing you that.  There are also 
transport fees etc. that have to be figured in to get an apples to apples 
comparison.  Sure I pay $200 per meg of usage here in Odessa.  But I also 
pay $800 per month for the circuit that'll carry those megs!


Nah, I've been running wide open full bore as fast as the ap will let the 
subs go since the very beginning.


And I have yet to have anyone take advantage of or break the system.

Of course, the person that does p2p does have to be attended to from time 
to time, we just slow their upload speeds and that usually solves the 
issue. Most of those people can't find enough stuff to download and those 
that do usually run out of disk space pretty quick. It's the upload that 
can be problematic.


With almost 700 users, I've hardly ever seen my 15 meg pipe get 50% 
saturated.


If I had to start telling my subs that they reached their bit usage limit, 
there would be one more thing that my competition cold use against me.
In a market that has Qwest heavily pushing DSL and Charter with their 
cable modems package deal promotions, I think it's hard to try to exert 
limitations, especially the ones that make the subs pay more, without some 
negativity.


George



I have some new data.  Let me first say that I agree with you.  There 
probably would be some uproar in your customer base.  However, have you read 
the TOS for Charter?  They have a bit limit last I knew.  And quest OWNS the 
backhaul etc.  Trying to compete with them on speed and capacity issues will 
get harder and harder as time goes on.


Now, for at least one of my heavy users.  He subscribed to a service that 
automatically sent 2 to 4 movies per day to his kids.  That explained his 
high usage right nicely.  Davinci Code was almost 8 gigs.


What are YOU gonna do when your users start to use this service?  They are 
gonna say the same thing *I'd* say.  I understand George, but I'm paying for 
512k so you need to deliver 512k.  It doesn't matter if I use it 24/7, 
that's the deal we made when I hired you to provide my internet.


I've always know that usage was going to keep going up.  As long as costs go 
down at the same rate as the usage goes up, we'll be ok.  But what's a guy 
gonna do if the usage goes up faster than the rates go down?


IPTV is coming guys.  Your usage today is NOTHING compared to what it'll be 
in a few years.  Our radio

Re: [WISPA] bits per mbps

2006-12-26 Thread Mike Ireton


I just wanted to weigh in here and add that filesharing and p2p is 
really a main driver of the isp business model today and we're going to 
have to do something to pull this in and make it equitable for everyone. 
If you think about this, what we're all doing here is paying for 
expensive dedicated service - eg: marlon's 10mbps pipe, my 45mbps pipe, 
or whatever - we're paying carriers and large network operators for 
truely unlimited service at the subscribed port speeds, and we pay a 
premium for it. In return, we are (usually) getting a quality that 
justifies the price (otherwise I'd just buy piles of $14.95/mo dsl 
circuits!). So what we then do is turn it around is add oversubscription 
to this model so that we can pay someone $400/mbps/month or whatever and 
then sell this for effectively $20/mbps/month.


It used to be that the average broadband user would use say %15 or less 
of their sustained maximum transfer thruput - which means that they used 
their 1.5mbps or whatever at full rate for only brief periods of time. 
This allowed oversubscription to work effectively because the chances 
were often excellent that full rate transfers weren't being done by a 
signifigant percentage of others at the same time.


But now with the growing demands of p2p/filesharing, this is broken. I 
routinely have customers now running full blast 24x7 throught the day 
and night with no letup or break ever and I strongly suspect that most 
if not all of it is simply wanton copyright violations and wasted 
downloads of stuff they won't ever even look at anyways. The field 
service calls I make for support purposes strongly support this notion 
because I usually get to see the customer pc and of the ones I see, more 
than %95 are just loaded up to the brim with ripped off songs and movies 
from limewire,kazaa,edonkey, you name it. The corresponding 
spyware/junkware infestations and crashing, slowdowns and malfunctions 
are just desserts of course, and I have never ever seen anyone just 
using these programs for 'legal purposes'.


But back to the main point here - we certainly want to provide good 
customer service and an overall good user experience. But the discussion 
needs to be had concerning the definition of what we're selling people, 
and it cannot continue to be an unlimited pipe that spews forth as much 
data as you want all the time. I have never used the word 'unlimited' 
in any advertising and have never promised or alluded to that word at 
any time. In my business at least, I am leaning twords implementing 
'content labeling' of the services offered which would work something 
like the ingredients on the box of corn flakes, and would describe all 
the features and restrictions of every service I offer. I think that, 
longer term, we're all going to have to do this (internet service 
content labeling) because otherwise, filesharing is going to overrun us 
all. Shared service is not shared if you're hogging it 24x7


Mike-

[EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote:

Hi Marlon,

Merry Christmas to you and your family!

Just a thought, you might want to fire those 9 customers.

You could also rate-limit them down to 56K and see how long they stick around.
Jeff



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Re: [WISPA] bits per mbps

2006-12-26 Thread Robert Kim Wireless Internet Advisor

Marlon / et al wisp ceo's,

yes. your raw cost per mb is going to skyrocket once your users start
watching iptv over your trunkline. I'm going to be posting compression
and streaming solutions at http://iptv-coverage.com too. so please use
my new site to archive your own findings as well. that way we'll have
a central resource for IPTV related wisp issues. bob kim

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Re: [WISPA] bits per mbps

2006-12-26 Thread Butch Evans

On Tue, 26 Dec 2006, Marlon K. Schafer (509) 982-2181 wrote:

Yeah, I know you took it off for me.  As I recall the conversation 
you said that we could do some testing that would show that it 
really did speed things up.  But it also caused a delay when the 
page was starting to load and that made it feel slower.


Did I get this wrong?


I think you have it right.  Using a cache (even on Mikrotik) really 
does speed up browsing for end users.  Using a cache, also, makes 
browsing feel slower, because of the lag between the click and the 
first part of the page being displayed.  This part is true with any 
type of cache server (proxy).


What I was referring to, is the fact that running the proxy server 
on a Mikrotik is (and always has been) problematic for various 
reasons.  Having said that, Mikrotik is in the process of testing a 
new caching proxy server (my understanding is that they are coding 
this one from the ground up).  I don't know how that one will work 
out.  But, either way, I generally recommend against building a 
proxy server of any kind.  YMMV.



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Re: [WISPA] bits per mbps

2006-12-26 Thread Marlon K. Schafer


- Original Message - 
From: Butch Evans [EMAIL PROTECTED]

To: WISPA General List wireless@wispa.org
Sent: Tuesday, December 26, 2006 8:47 PM
Subject: Re: [WISPA] bits per mbps



On Tue, 26 Dec 2006, Marlon K. Schafer (509) 982-2181 wrote:

Yeah, I know you took it off for me.  As I recall the conversation you 
said that we could do some testing that would show that it really did 
speed things up.  But it also caused a delay when the page was starting to 
load and that made it feel slower.


Did I get this wrong?


I think you have it right.  Using a cache (even on Mikrotik) really does 
speed up browsing for end users.  Using a cache, also, makes browsing 
feel slower, because of the lag between the click and the first part of 
the page being displayed.  This part is true with any type of cache server 
(proxy).


FYI, that is NOT how things worked with my Cobalt CacheRAQ.  It was amazing 
how quickly things snapped up on the page with it vs. without it.  Too bad 
it was an older unit and I could only use it by changing the gateway 
addresses.  And it had heat related lockup issues in the summer.


I'd love to put another one in.  It was money very well spent.

Oh yeah, the reports that it generated every day were very useful.



What I was referring to, is the fact that running the proxy server on a 
Mikrotik is (and always has been) problematic for various reasons.  Having 
said that, Mikrotik is in the process of testing a new caching proxy 
server (my understanding is that they are coding this one from the ground 
up).  I don't know how that one will work out.  But, either way, I 
generally recommend against building a proxy server of any kind.  YMMV.



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Network Engineering and Security Consulting
573-276-2879
http://www.butchevans.com/
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(http://www.mikrotik.com/consultants.html)
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Re: [WISPA] bits per mbps

2006-12-26 Thread George Rogato



Marlon K. Schafer wrote:

FYI, that is NOT how things worked with my Cobalt CacheRAQ.  It was 
amazing how quickly things snapped up on the page with it vs. without 
it.  Too bad it was an older unit and I could only use it by changing 
the gateway addresses.  And it had heat related lockup issues in the 
summer.


I'd love to put another one in.  It was money very well spent.




Funny how fast time goes by, now that you mentioned it, We had a 
cacheRAQ as well.


You know Akamai is also an option. As I recall they require you to have 
x number of subs and then send you their boxes to be set up on your 
network. All free.


For your final solution on how do you allow subs to download more bits 
and not raise your upstream cost, the solution is all pretty simple with 
what you have in place right now.


You mentioned that Butch was your guy.

Seeing Butch is your guy, I am assuming you have a MT box at your noc. 
Best solution is to do some bandwidth rules limiting your netowrk to 
never go more than x megs and to make your users burst or fall back.


I would still consider a caching server to handle the videos just the 
same. That ought to shave something.



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Re: [WISPA] bits per mbps

2006-12-26 Thread Matt Larsen - Lists
Back in the olden days of dialup, I used to get fantastic results from 
our caching server.  It was just a PIII machine with a whopping 640meg 
of memory, but it did a good job.  Page views were noticeably faster 
when things were setup correctly.


When I was in a backbone pinch, I used a caching server fed by a cable 
modem to offload a large percentage of my web surfing traffic.  Worked 
fine until Charter's upload degraded so bad that external webmail 
(hotmail, yahoo) quit working.  Got our fiber backbone installed at that 
time and didn't need it after that, but it did the job in a pinch.


It is actually fairly simple to get a caching server running nowadays, 
compared to what we used to have to go through.  CentOS seems to have a 
pretty decent squid caching server implementation in the install list 
ready to run.   Once you get your localnets in the ACL list and make a 
few tweaks, it is off and running and ready for production.   With 
servers so cheap, I am thinking about building one with 2 or 4gig of 
memory and setting it up to cache big objects (YouTube videos, Yahoo 
videos, 5meg objects, etc) and forcing all of my residential customers 
that are on private IP ranges to go through it.   My connection is 
unmetered, so I don't really save that much by doing it as far as 
bandwidth consumption goes, but I'm up to 18-19meg at peak times on my 
20 meg connection, so it might buy me a few months before I have to add 
capacity.


Matt Larsen
[EMAIL PROTECTED]


George Rogato wrote:



Marlon K. Schafer wrote:

FYI, that is NOT how things worked with my Cobalt CacheRAQ.  It was 
amazing how quickly things snapped up on the page with it vs. without 
it.  Too bad it was an older unit and I could only use it by changing 
the gateway addresses.  And it had heat related lockup issues in the 
summer.


I'd love to put another one in.  It was money very well spent.




Funny how fast time goes by, now that you mentioned it, We had a 
cacheRAQ as well.


You know Akamai is also an option. As I recall they require you to 
have x number of subs and then send you their boxes to be set up on 
your network. All free.


For your final solution on how do you allow subs to download more bits 
and not raise your upstream cost, the solution is all pretty simple 
with what you have in place right now.


You mentioned that Butch was your guy.

Seeing Butch is your guy, I am assuming you have a MT box at your noc. 
Best solution is to do some bandwidth rules limiting your netowrk to 
never go more than x megs and to make your users burst or fall back.


I would still consider a caching server to handle the videos just the 
same. That ought to shave something.





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RE: [WISPA] bits per mbps

2006-12-26 Thread Jonathan Schmidt
Unfortunately, caching servers break a lot of sites' content
unintentionally.  That is, they have to request a page from the requested
site as if it were the exact same configuration (same browser, same OS, same
plug-ins, etc., as the requestor) and then relay it to the requesting
subscriber as if it were the destination site knowing that same information.


Also, they add significant latency to ordinary traffic (the requested URLs
have to be obtained in their entirety first then relayed) and you can't have
more than a thousand up to several thousand simultaneous users...maybe not a
problem... you can get around that with load balancing in the NOCs with
multiple proxy servers.

I'd be interested in learning of any well-performing installations in
broadband.  I'd be especially interested in learning if the heavy traffic
users (P2P?) ever loaded a page that was on a regular site to inflict heavy
traffic.

. . . j o n a t h a n

-Original Message-
From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] On
Behalf Of Matt Larsen - Lists
Sent: Wednesday, December 27, 2006 12:49 AM
To: WISPA General List
Subject: Re: [WISPA] bits per mbps

Back in the olden days of dialup, I used to get fantastic results from 
our caching server.  It was just a PIII machine with a whopping 640meg 
of memory, but it did a good job.  Page views were noticeably faster 
when things were setup correctly.

When I was in a backbone pinch, I used a caching server fed by a cable 
modem to offload a large percentage of my web surfing traffic.  Worked 
fine until Charter's upload degraded so bad that external webmail 
(hotmail, yahoo) quit working.  Got our fiber backbone installed at that 
time and didn't need it after that, but it did the job in a pinch.

It is actually fairly simple to get a caching server running nowadays, 
compared to what we used to have to go through.  CentOS seems to have a 
pretty decent squid caching server implementation in the install list 
ready to run.   Once you get your localnets in the ACL list and make a 
few tweaks, it is off and running and ready for production.   With 
servers so cheap, I am thinking about building one with 2 or 4gig of 
memory and setting it up to cache big objects (YouTube videos, Yahoo 
videos, 5meg objects, etc) and forcing all of my residential customers 
that are on private IP ranges to go through it.   My connection is 
unmetered, so I don't really save that much by doing it as far as 
bandwidth consumption goes, but I'm up to 18-19meg at peak times on my 
20 meg connection, so it might buy me a few months before I have to add 
capacity.

Matt Larsen
[EMAIL PROTECTED]


George Rogato wrote:


 Marlon K. Schafer wrote:

 FYI, that is NOT how things worked with my Cobalt CacheRAQ.  It was 
 amazing how quickly things snapped up on the page with it vs. without 
 it.  Too bad it was an older unit and I could only use it by changing 
 the gateway addresses.  And it had heat related lockup issues in the 
 summer.

 I'd love to put another one in.  It was money very well spent.



 Funny how fast time goes by, now that you mentioned it, We had a 
 cacheRAQ as well.

 You know Akamai is also an option. As I recall they require you to 
 have x number of subs and then send you their boxes to be set up on 
 your network. All free.

 For your final solution on how do you allow subs to download more bits 
 and not raise your upstream cost, the solution is all pretty simple 
 with what you have in place right now.

 You mentioned that Butch was your guy.

 Seeing Butch is your guy, I am assuming you have a MT box at your noc. 
 Best solution is to do some bandwidth rules limiting your netowrk to 
 never go more than x megs and to make your users burst or fall back.

 I would still consider a caching server to handle the videos just the 
 same. That ought to shave something.



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Re: [WISPA] bits per mbps

2006-12-24 Thread John Thomas
Marlon , why the additive pricing for additional Gigs? Why wouldn't you 
just charge x$ per gig, since that is essentially what you are being 
charged by your upstream. If someone is using an average of 161 kbps 
constantly for a month, that sounds a lot like a T-1. Speakeasy is doing 
T-1s to the Internet for $399, others are doing SDSL at $250-299 per 
month, so if you are in the neighborhood, that should be expected. 
Anothe thing to think about is tiering your pricing


4 Gigs$49
10 Gigs  $99
50 Gigs   $299

or something like that.

John Thomas


Marlon K. Schafer (509) 982-2181 wrote:

Hi All,

OK, so now that we know who our heavy users are I have to come up with 
a couple of things.


First, I have to figure out how many kbps a gig of download would be. 
Specifically, I've got a couple of customers doing 50 gigs per month.  
How many kbps does it take to generate that?


We pay for our internet based on kbps.

Next, what do we do for an overage fee?  Currently it's set as $5 for 
the first gig, $10 for the second, $20 for the third etc.  At 25 gigs 
the customer has a $5,000,000 bill.  Sure that'll run off the abusers, 
but I'd rather find a more reasonable way to bill them.


We have a business customer that legitimately uses 40 to 50 gig per 
month. We just moved them from $75 to $350 per month (matched the t-1 
price they pay in another town).  They don't feel abused and I feel 
more comfortable about their usage.  We bumped them up to 60 gigs 
included.


I have another customer that's at 10 gigs now (our included limit is 
4).  We talked about an appropriate rate of increase.  Under our 
standard levels, they'd more than double their bill.  If we hit them 
with a couple of hundred in billing they'd go elsewhere.  We would, 
however, like to dig a little bit deeper into their back pocket.  I 
talked with them a bit about our need to recover costs based on their 
usage etc.


They said if we hit $100 to $125 they'd not have a problem with that.

On our end we have two problems.  One, we pay for internet based on 
usage. The more they use the more we pay.  Our costs were up 15% last 
month.  The other, maybe worse issue, is that we have to increase the 
capacity to towers that have heavy users on them.  Possibly to the 
point of a dedicated ap to cover just a customer or three.  Now we're 
really talking bucks and spectrum issues etc.


My original idea was that if a person went over by a gig or two we'd 
ding them a few dollars as a shot across the bow kind of thing.  
Around 50 of our 400 users are going over the new 4 gig level though.  
Some will fix that by getting postini and dropping the spam.  Some 
will fix that by getting the kids to turn off the file sharing 
programs.  And some are legitimately using that much data.


In the end, we don't want to run off people if we can help it.  Those 
at the 30 to 50 gig level will probably leave us for other services, 
but that's gonna be ok.  They mess things up for everyone around 
them.  Better that my competitors have customers like that than we 
do.  For all of the rest, we need to recover our costs, and hopefully 
make a little extra money on them.


S, my new idea is, gigs 5 through 10 would be at $5 per month.  
Gigs 10 through 20 at $10 per gig.  Over 20, call for a price and 
we'll work something out that works for all of us.  We really need it 
to naturally hit around $350 at the 50 gig level to match what we did 
with the first big customer.


Thougths

Marlon
(509) 982-2181   Equipment sales
(408) 907-6910 (Vonage)Consulting services
42846865 (icq)And I run my own wisp!
[EMAIL PROTECTED]
www.odessaoffice.com/wireless
www.odessaoffice.com/marlon/cam






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Re: [WISPA] bits per mbps

2006-12-22 Thread David E. Smith
Marlon K. Schafer (509) 982-2181 wrote:

 First, I have to figure out how many kbps a gig of download would be.
 Specifically, I've got a couple of customers doing 50 gigs per month. 
 How many kbps does it take to generate that?

Assuming a month is 30 days (nice round number), 50GB/month is about
161kbps, all the time. That's the equivalent of, say, leaving a
high-quality streaming radio station running, or a low-quality video
feed like gbs.tv.

I'm staying out of the rest of the discussion, because I'm violently
allergic to pay-by-the-bit pricing. It may make good sense to the
bookkeeper, but with streaming media (YouTube, Google Video), big
downloadable media (iTunes movies, Amazon Unbox), and giant software
downloads (World of Warcraft and just about every other MMORPG) becoming
more prevalent, I think it's just gonna seriously annoy your users in
the long term.

David Smith
MVN.net
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Re: [WISPA] bits per mbps

2006-12-22 Thread George Rogato
Guess it cmes down to what you are selling and what does it cost you to 
do business.


First f, you are selling a simle internet conection for a casual user. 
If you want you can squeeze them fr every little bit.


I wonder why you have to charge them more, if you are being billed at 
the 95%


My understanding is the 95 percentile is a snap shot at peak time and 
the top 5% lobbed of to come up with your usage. What this means to me 
is that on wed evening at 8PM when you hit 9.543megs a second which is 
your highest usage, could be sunday morning or friday evening for that 
matter, they call that the peak and lob off 5% and bill you there.


So on monday morning when you are going 4.5 or 2.2MBPS or sat evening 
when you hit 5 or 6 megs, there is no difference in cost to you. t's all 
 under the peak.


So why bother unless your true goal is to figure out how hard you can 
squeeze you sub. Which is not right or wrong, just your business not any 
ones elses.


I have a sub that uploads a 250 meg file twice a day to my server and 
does this every day.

If he was your sub how much would you charge them?

George


Marlon K. Schafer (509) 982-2181 wrote:

Hi All,

OK, so now that we know who our heavy users are I have to come up with a 
couple of things.


First, I have to figure out how many kbps a gig of download would be. 
Specifically, I've got a couple of customers doing 50 gigs per month.  
How many kbps does it take to generate that?


We pay for our internet based on kbps.

Next, what do we do for an overage fee?  Currently it's set as $5 for 
the first gig, $10 for the second, $20 for the third etc.  At 25 gigs 
the customer has a $5,000,000 bill.  Sure that'll run off the abusers, 
but I'd rather find a more reasonable way to bill them.


We have a business customer that legitimately uses 40 to 50 gig per 
month. We just moved them from $75 to $350 per month (matched the t-1 
price they pay in another town).  They don't feel abused and I feel more 
comfortable about their usage.  We bumped them up to 60 gigs included.


I have another customer that's at 10 gigs now (our included limit is 
4).  We talked about an appropriate rate of increase.  Under our 
standard levels, they'd more than double their bill.  If we hit them 
with a couple of hundred in billing they'd go elsewhere.  We would, 
however, like to dig a little bit deeper into their back pocket.  I 
talked with them a bit about our need to recover costs based on their 
usage etc.


They said if we hit $100 to $125 they'd not have a problem with that.

On our end we have two problems.  One, we pay for internet based on 
usage. The more they use the more we pay.  Our costs were up 15% last 
month.  The other, maybe worse issue, is that we have to increase the 
capacity to towers that have heavy users on them.  Possibly to the point 
of a dedicated ap to cover just a customer or three.  Now we're really 
talking bucks and spectrum issues etc.


My original idea was that if a person went over by a gig or two we'd 
ding them a few dollars as a shot across the bow kind of thing.  
Around 50 of our 400 users are going over the new 4 gig level though.  
Some will fix that by getting postini and dropping the spam.  Some will 
fix that by getting the kids to turn off the file sharing programs.  And 
some are legitimately using that much data.


In the end, we don't want to run off people if we can help it.  Those at 
the 30 to 50 gig level will probably leave us for other services, but 
that's gonna be ok.  They mess things up for everyone around them.  
Better that my competitors have customers like that than we do.  For all 
of the rest, we need to recover our costs, and hopefully make a little 
extra money on them.


S, my new idea is, gigs 5 through 10 would be at $5 per month.  Gigs 
10 through 20 at $10 per gig.  Over 20, call for a price and we'll work 
something out that works for all of us.  We really need it to naturally 
hit around $350 at the 50 gig level to match what we did with the first 
big customer.


Thougths

Marlon
(509) 982-2181   Equipment sales
(408) 907-6910 (Vonage)Consulting services
42846865 (icq)And I run my own wisp!
[EMAIL PROTECTED]
www.odessaoffice.com/wireless
www.odessaoffice.com/marlon/cam






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Re: [WISPA] bits per mbps

2006-12-22 Thread Travis Johnson
Yes, change to a speed model like everyone else (Cable, DSL, WISP) and 
don't worry about it any more. :)


Travis
Microserv

Marlon K. Schafer (509) 982-2181 wrote:

Hi All,

OK, so now that we know who our heavy users are I have to come up with 
a couple of things.


First, I have to figure out how many kbps a gig of download would be. 
Specifically, I've got a couple of customers doing 50 gigs per month.  
How many kbps does it take to generate that?


We pay for our internet based on kbps.

Next, what do we do for an overage fee?  Currently it's set as $5 for 
the first gig, $10 for the second, $20 for the third etc.  At 25 gigs 
the customer has a $5,000,000 bill.  Sure that'll run off the abusers, 
but I'd rather find a more reasonable way to bill them.


We have a business customer that legitimately uses 40 to 50 gig per 
month. We just moved them from $75 to $350 per month (matched the t-1 
price they pay in another town).  They don't feel abused and I feel 
more comfortable about their usage.  We bumped them up to 60 gigs 
included.


I have another customer that's at 10 gigs now (our included limit is 
4).  We talked about an appropriate rate of increase.  Under our 
standard levels, they'd more than double their bill.  If we hit them 
with a couple of hundred in billing they'd go elsewhere.  We would, 
however, like to dig a little bit deeper into their back pocket.  I 
talked with them a bit about our need to recover costs based on their 
usage etc.


They said if we hit $100 to $125 they'd not have a problem with that.

On our end we have two problems.  One, we pay for internet based on 
usage. The more they use the more we pay.  Our costs were up 15% last 
month.  The other, maybe worse issue, is that we have to increase the 
capacity to towers that have heavy users on them.  Possibly to the 
point of a dedicated ap to cover just a customer or three.  Now we're 
really talking bucks and spectrum issues etc.


My original idea was that if a person went over by a gig or two we'd 
ding them a few dollars as a shot across the bow kind of thing.  
Around 50 of our 400 users are going over the new 4 gig level though.  
Some will fix that by getting postini and dropping the spam.  Some 
will fix that by getting the kids to turn off the file sharing 
programs.  And some are legitimately using that much data.


In the end, we don't want to run off people if we can help it.  Those 
at the 30 to 50 gig level will probably leave us for other services, 
but that's gonna be ok.  They mess things up for everyone around 
them.  Better that my competitors have customers like that than we 
do.  For all of the rest, we need to recover our costs, and hopefully 
make a little extra money on them.


S, my new idea is, gigs 5 through 10 would be at $5 per month.  
Gigs 10 through 20 at $10 per gig.  Over 20, call for a price and 
we'll work something out that works for all of us.  We really need it 
to naturally hit around $350 at the 50 gig level to match what we did 
with the first big customer.


Thougths

Marlon
(509) 982-2181   Equipment sales
(408) 907-6910 (Vonage)Consulting services
42846865 (icq)And I run my own wisp!
[EMAIL PROTECTED]
www.odessaoffice.com/wireless
www.odessaoffice.com/marlon/cam




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Re: [WISPA] bits per mbps

2006-12-22 Thread Marlon K. Schafer (509) 982-2181


- Original Message - 
From: David E. Smith [EMAIL PROTECTED]

To: WISPA General List wireless@wispa.org
Sent: Friday, December 22, 2006 1:42 PM
Subject: Re: [WISPA] bits per mbps



Marlon K. Schafer (509) 982-2181 wrote:


First, I have to figure out how many kbps a gig of download would be.
Specifically, I've got a couple of customers doing 50 gigs per month.
How many kbps does it take to generate that?


Assuming a month is 30 days (nice round number), 50GB/month is about
161kbps, all the time. That's the equivalent of, say, leaving a
high-quality streaming radio station running, or a low-quality video
feed like gbs.tv.


OK, so, when I pay $250 per mbps that works out to how many $ per month?



I'm staying out of the rest of the discussion, because I'm violently
allergic to pay-by-the-bit pricing. It may make good sense to the
bookkeeper, but with streaming media (YouTube, Google Video), big
downloadable media (iTunes movies, Amazon Unbox), and giant software
downloads (World of Warcraft and just about every other MMORPG) becoming
more prevalent, I think it's just gonna seriously annoy your users in
the long term.


I understand all about that.

Now, lets look at this from a pragmatic standpoint.  Reality rearing it's 
ugly head into the average business model.


You say that my abusers are at 161 kbps.  That means that there are 9.3 
abusers per t-1.  With t-1 costs around $400 on average, that means that 
those customers will cost me $44.44 each.  JUST in bandwidth expenses.


Most of our customers pay us $35 to $40 each.

So, Mr. Allergic, how do you suggest a guy stay in business?

grin



David Smith
MVN.net
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Re: [WISPA] bits per mbps

2006-12-22 Thread David E. Smith
Marlon K. Schafer (509) 982-2181 wrote:

 First, I have to figure out how many kbps a gig of download would be.
 Specifically, I've got a couple of customers doing 50 gigs per month.
 How many kbps does it take to generate that?

 Assuming a month is 30 days (nice round number), 50GB/month is about
 161kbps, all the time. That's the equivalent of, say, leaving a
 high-quality streaming radio station running, or a low-quality video
 feed like gbs.tv.
 
 OK, so, when I pay $250 per mbps that works out to how many $ per month?

Fake answer: Too many, you're getting robbed by your upstream. :)

Serious answer: 1Mbps constant is about 316.4GB over 30 days.


 Now, lets look at this from a pragmatic standpoint.  Reality rearing
 it's ugly head into the average business model.

Dude, I just run the NOC, I don't know nothin' 'bout no numbers. :D

 So, Mr. Allergic, how do you suggest a guy stay in business?

Y'know, my fake answer suddenly looks a lot better. :)

In all seriousness, if you've got more than four or five T1s, you may
want to look into a DS3. At least locally, once you get past there, a
fractional (or even a full) DS3 becomes more cost-effective. If you
expect to be in business for another three or five years (and who
doesn't?) signing a long-term contract with your upstream can bring the
price down even further.

Even if you don't need all that bandwidth now, you'll probably need it
in the next couple years. If you're really ambitious, you can use some
of that extra bandwidth and expand into other computer-y stuff (virtual
servers, colocation, Web hosting, whatever). The typical residential or
small-business user pulls a lot more download than upload; you might as
well use all that extra upload capacity for something.

David Smith
MVN.net
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Re: [WISPA] bits per mbps

2006-12-22 Thread Marlon K. Schafer (509) 982-2181

Cause it takes just 9 uers at 50 gigs per month to double my BW costs.

At $35 per month in service fees, the 50 gig user chews up more than 10% of 
my costs.


He needs to pay more.

Or, he needs to get his service from you.  Just be glad you aren't a 
competitor of mine.  Right now, we have 9 users over 10 gigs per month. 
That means that 5% of my customers are more than, much more than, 5% of my 
bw costs.  The average person is using less than 2 gigs.


Worst of all, the OTHER customers on the towers that the highest of the high 
end users are calling about bad service.


Soo000, how would you like to be a competitor here, knowing that I'm gonna 
give you the highest of the bw hogs?  What are YOU gonna do to stay in 
business?


laters,
Marlon
(509) 982-2181   Equipment sales
(408) 907-6910 (Vonage)Consulting services
42846865 (icq)And I run my own wisp!
[EMAIL PROTECTED]
www.odessaoffice.com/wireless
www.odessaoffice.com/marlon/cam



- Original Message - 
From: George Rogato [EMAIL PROTECTED]

To: WISPA General List wireless@wispa.org
Sent: Friday, December 22, 2006 1:45 PM
Subject: Re: [WISPA] bits per mbps


Guess it cmes down to what you are selling and what does it cost you to do 
business.


First f, you are selling a simle internet conection for a casual user. If 
you want you can squeeze them fr every little bit.


I wonder why you have to charge them more, if you are being billed at the 
95%


My understanding is the 95 percentile is a snap shot at peak time and the 
top 5% lobbed of to come up with your usage. What this means to me is that 
on wed evening at 8PM when you hit 9.543megs a second which is your 
highest usage, could be sunday morning or friday evening for that matter, 
they call that the peak and lob off 5% and bill you there.


So on monday morning when you are going 4.5 or 2.2MBPS or sat evening when 
you hit 5 or 6 megs, there is no difference in cost to you. t's all under 
the peak.


So why bother unless your true goal is to figure out how hard you can 
squeeze you sub. Which is not right or wrong, just your business not any 
ones elses.


I have a sub that uploads a 250 meg file twice a day to my server and does 
this every day.

If he was your sub how much would you charge them?

George


Marlon K. Schafer (509) 982-2181 wrote:

Hi All,

OK, so now that we know who our heavy users are I have to come up with a 
couple of things.


First, I have to figure out how many kbps a gig of download would be. 
Specifically, I've got a couple of customers doing 50 gigs per month. 
How many kbps does it take to generate that?


We pay for our internet based on kbps.

Next, what do we do for an overage fee?  Currently it's set as $5 for the 
first gig, $10 for the second, $20 for the third etc.  At 25 gigs the 
customer has a $5,000,000 bill.  Sure that'll run off the abusers, but 
I'd rather find a more reasonable way to bill them.


We have a business customer that legitimately uses 40 to 50 gig per 
month. We just moved them from $75 to $350 per month (matched the t-1 
price they pay in another town).  They don't feel abused and I feel more 
comfortable about their usage.  We bumped them up to 60 gigs included.


I have another customer that's at 10 gigs now (our included limit is 4). 
We talked about an appropriate rate of increase.  Under our standard 
levels, they'd more than double their bill.  If we hit them with a couple 
of hundred in billing they'd go elsewhere.  We would, however, like to 
dig a little bit deeper into their back pocket.  I talked with them a bit 
about our need to recover costs based on their usage etc.


They said if we hit $100 to $125 they'd not have a problem with that.

On our end we have two problems.  One, we pay for internet based on 
usage. The more they use the more we pay.  Our costs were up 15% last 
month.  The other, maybe worse issue, is that we have to increase the 
capacity to towers that have heavy users on them.  Possibly to the point 
of a dedicated ap to cover just a customer or three.  Now we're really 
talking bucks and spectrum issues etc.


My original idea was that if a person went over by a gig or two we'd ding 
them a few dollars as a shot across the bow kind of thing.  Around 50 
of our 400 users are going over the new 4 gig level though.  Some will 
fix that by getting postini and dropping the spam.  Some will fix that by 
getting the kids to turn off the file sharing programs.  And some are 
legitimately using that much data.


In the end, we don't want to run off people if we can help it.  Those at 
the 30 to 50 gig level will probably leave us for other services, but 
that's gonna be ok.  They mess things up for everyone around them. 
Better that my competitors have customers like that than we do.  For all 
of the rest, we need to recover our costs, and hopefully make a little 
extra money on them.


S, my new idea is, gigs

Re: [WISPA] bits per mbps

2006-12-22 Thread Marlon K. Schafer (509) 982-2181


- Original Message - 
From: David E. Smith [EMAIL PROTECTED]

To: WISPA General List wireless@wispa.org
Sent: Friday, December 22, 2006 2:26 PM
Subject: Re: [WISPA] bits per mbps



Marlon K. Schafer (509) 982-2181 wrote:


First, I have to figure out how many kbps a gig of download would be.
Specifically, I've got a couple of customers doing 50 gigs per month.
How many kbps does it take to generate that?


Assuming a month is 30 days (nice round number), 50GB/month is about
161kbps, all the time. That's the equivalent of, say, leaving a
high-quality streaming radio station running, or a low-quality video
feed like gbs.tv.


OK, so, when I pay $250 per mbps that works out to how many $ per month?


Fake answer: Too many, you're getting robbed by your upstream. :)

Serious answer: 1Mbps constant is about 316.4GB over 30 days.



Now, lets look at this from a pragmatic standpoint.  Reality rearing
it's ugly head into the average business model.


Dude, I just run the NOC, I don't know nothin' 'bout no numbers. :D


So, Mr. Allergic, how do you suggest a guy stay in business?


Y'know, my fake answer suddenly looks a lot better. :)

In all seriousness, if you've got more than four or five T1s, you may
want to look into a DS3. At least locally, once you get past there, a
fractional (or even a full) DS3 becomes more cost-effective. If you
expect to be in business for another three or five years (and who
doesn't?) signing a long-term contract with your upstream can bring the
price down even further.

Even if you don't need all that bandwidth now, you'll probably need it
in the next couple years. If you're really ambitious, you can use some
of that extra bandwidth and expand into other computer-y stuff (virtual
servers, colocation, Web hosting, whatever). The typical residential or
small-business user pulls a lot more download than upload; you might as
well use all that extra upload capacity for something.


Yepeprs, I could do that.  But right now I have a 100 meg ethernet 
connection.  I have home users that can do speakeasy tests of 30 megs.  15 
megs upload!  They pay $40 per month.


I'm paying $700 per month for that ability.  I could buy mbps and pay less. 
Probably a lot less.  But then I'd also have to buy a cap in speeds.  So my 
30 meg customers would no longer get 30 megs.  They'd get 3 or 4 or whatever 
$700 to $1000 would buy me.  I promise it wouldn't be 100 megs.


AND, that 50 gig user would STILL cost me more than he's paying me. 
Remember I have another $10 or more per cusotmer in labor, gas, insurance, 
office space etc. etc. etc.


Next idea?

There are more things to look at than just the bandwidth issue OR just the 
money issue.  It's a big picture and a person has to be able to take in all 
of it AND understand what he's looking at.


Then, we have to tweak it to fit the lifestyle we want to live and where we 
want to send the kids to college..


David Smith
MVN.net
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Re: [WISPA] bits per mbps

2006-12-22 Thread Travis Johnson

Marlon,

Sell your service based on speed... 512k = $xx, 1meg = $xx and so on... 
then you don't have to worry about who is transferring how much, etc.


The people that hog it, just call them and say that's not permitted on 
our service and if they continue, cap their speed down to 256k or 128k 
until they cancel and go away. :)


10% of your customers will use 90% of your time. Same goes for bandwidth. ;)

Travis
Microserv

Marlon K. Schafer (509) 982-2181 wrote:

Cause it takes just 9 uers at 50 gigs per month to double my BW costs.

At $35 per month in service fees, the 50 gig user chews up more than 
10% of my costs.


He needs to pay more.

Or, he needs to get his service from you.  Just be glad you aren't a 
competitor of mine.  Right now, we have 9 users over 10 gigs per 
month. That means that 5% of my customers are more than, much more 
than, 5% of my bw costs.  The average person is using less than 2 gigs.


Worst of all, the OTHER customers on the towers that the highest of 
the high end users are calling about bad service.


Soo000, how would you like to be a competitor here, knowing that I'm 
gonna give you the highest of the bw hogs?  What are YOU gonna do to 
stay in business?


laters,
Marlon
(509) 982-2181   Equipment sales
(408) 907-6910 (Vonage)Consulting services
42846865 (icq)And I run my own wisp!
[EMAIL PROTECTED]
www.odessaoffice.com/wireless
www.odessaoffice.com/marlon/cam



- Original Message - From: George Rogato [EMAIL PROTECTED]
To: WISPA General List wireless@wispa.org
Sent: Friday, December 22, 2006 1:45 PM
Subject: Re: [WISPA] bits per mbps


Guess it cmes down to what you are selling and what does it cost you 
to do business.


First f, you are selling a simle internet conection for a casual 
user. If you want you can squeeze them fr every little bit.


I wonder why you have to charge them more, if you are being billed at 
the 95%


My understanding is the 95 percentile is a snap shot at peak time and 
the top 5% lobbed of to come up with your usage. What this means to 
me is that on wed evening at 8PM when you hit 9.543megs a second 
which is your highest usage, could be sunday morning or friday 
evening for that matter, they call that the peak and lob off 5% and 
bill you there.


So on monday morning when you are going 4.5 or 2.2MBPS or sat evening 
when you hit 5 or 6 megs, there is no difference in cost to you. t's 
all under the peak.


So why bother unless your true goal is to figure out how hard you can 
squeeze you sub. Which is not right or wrong, just your business not 
any ones elses.


I have a sub that uploads a 250 meg file twice a day to my server and 
does this every day.

If he was your sub how much would you charge them?

George


Marlon K. Schafer (509) 982-2181 wrote:

Hi All,

OK, so now that we know who our heavy users are I have to come up 
with a couple of things.


First, I have to figure out how many kbps a gig of download would 
be. Specifically, I've got a couple of customers doing 50 gigs per 
month. How many kbps does it take to generate that?


We pay for our internet based on kbps.

Next, what do we do for an overage fee?  Currently it's set as $5 
for the first gig, $10 for the second, $20 for the third etc.  At 25 
gigs the customer has a $5,000,000 bill.  Sure that'll run off the 
abusers, but I'd rather find a more reasonable way to bill them.


We have a business customer that legitimately uses 40 to 50 gig per 
month. We just moved them from $75 to $350 per month (matched the 
t-1 price they pay in another town).  They don't feel abused and I 
feel more comfortable about their usage.  We bumped them up to 60 
gigs included.


I have another customer that's at 10 gigs now (our included limit is 
4). We talked about an appropriate rate of increase.  Under our 
standard levels, they'd more than double their bill.  If we hit them 
with a couple of hundred in billing they'd go elsewhere.  We would, 
however, like to dig a little bit deeper into their back pocket.  I 
talked with them a bit about our need to recover costs based on 
their usage etc.


They said if we hit $100 to $125 they'd not have a problem with that.

On our end we have two problems.  One, we pay for internet based on 
usage. The more they use the more we pay.  Our costs were up 15% 
last month.  The other, maybe worse issue, is that we have to 
increase the capacity to towers that have heavy users on them.  
Possibly to the point of a dedicated ap to cover just a customer or 
three.  Now we're really talking bucks and spectrum issues etc.


My original idea was that if a person went over by a gig or two we'd 
ding them a few dollars as a shot across the bow kind of thing.  
Around 50 of our 400 users are going over the new 4 gig level 
though.  Some will fix that by getting postini and dropping the 
spam.  Some will fix that by getting the kids to turn off the file 
sharing

Re: [WISPA] bits per mbps

2006-12-22 Thread George Rogato

But a cahing server if you can't afford the bandwidth.
Seriously, your model, the old model, is about dead and buried.

How much does it cost to watch a movie across the net using your system?


  Just be glad you aren't a  competitor of mine.

Wrong answer, It should be the other way around. Because we don't bit 
charge, we manage our network to accomadate our users needs.
I would imagine that if you were here telling your subs that they had to 
pay more, they would be coming this way.


I'm not scared of my subs usage, I've been building out specifically for 
their future high usage needs.


Bottom line, you need to get over the hump of not having enough subs to 
pay for the extra bandwidth where you can get a much better per meg rate.


Get more subs!

George


Right now, we have 9 users over 10 gigs per month.
That means that 5% of my customers are more than, much more than, 5% of 
my bw costs.  The average person is using less than 2 gigs.


Worst of all, the OTHER customers on the towers that the highest of the 
high end users are calling about bad service.


Soo000, how would you like to be a competitor here, knowing that I'm 
gonna give you the highest of the bw hogs?  What are YOU gonna do to 
stay in business?


laters,
Marlon
(509) 982-2181   Equipment sales
(408) 907-6910 (Vonage)Consulting services
42846865 (icq)And I run my own wisp!
[EMAIL PROTECTED]
www.odessaoffice.com/wireless
www.odessaoffice.com/marlon/cam



- Original Message - From: George Rogato [EMAIL PROTECTED]
To: WISPA General List wireless@wispa.org
Sent: Friday, December 22, 2006 1:45 PM
Subject: Re: [WISPA] bits per mbps


Guess it cmes down to what you are selling and what does it cost you 
to do business.


First f, you are selling a simle internet conection for a casual user. 
If you want you can squeeze them fr every little bit.


I wonder why you have to charge them more, if you are being billed at 
the 95%


My understanding is the 95 percentile is a snap shot at peak time and 
the top 5% lobbed of to come up with your usage. What this means to me 
is that on wed evening at 8PM when you hit 9.543megs a second which is 
your highest usage, could be sunday morning or friday evening for that 
matter, they call that the peak and lob off 5% and bill you there.


So on monday morning when you are going 4.5 or 2.2MBPS or sat evening 
when you hit 5 or 6 megs, there is no difference in cost to you. t's 
all under the peak.


So why bother unless your true goal is to figure out how hard you can 
squeeze you sub. Which is not right or wrong, just your business not 
any ones elses.


I have a sub that uploads a 250 meg file twice a day to my server and 
does this every day.

If he was your sub how much would you charge them?

George


Marlon K. Schafer (509) 982-2181 wrote:

Hi All,

OK, so now that we know who our heavy users are I have to come up 
with a couple of things.


First, I have to figure out how many kbps a gig of download would be. 
Specifically, I've got a couple of customers doing 50 gigs per month. 
How many kbps does it take to generate that?


We pay for our internet based on kbps.

Next, what do we do for an overage fee?  Currently it's set as $5 for 
the first gig, $10 for the second, $20 for the third etc.  At 25 gigs 
the customer has a $5,000,000 bill.  Sure that'll run off the 
abusers, but I'd rather find a more reasonable way to bill them.


We have a business customer that legitimately uses 40 to 50 gig per 
month. We just moved them from $75 to $350 per month (matched the t-1 
price they pay in another town).  They don't feel abused and I feel 
more comfortable about their usage.  We bumped them up to 60 gigs 
included.


I have another customer that's at 10 gigs now (our included limit is 
4). We talked about an appropriate rate of increase.  Under our 
standard levels, they'd more than double their bill.  If we hit them 
with a couple of hundred in billing they'd go elsewhere.  We would, 
however, like to dig a little bit deeper into their back pocket.  I 
talked with them a bit about our need to recover costs based on their 
usage etc.


They said if we hit $100 to $125 they'd not have a problem with that.

On our end we have two problems.  One, we pay for internet based on 
usage. The more they use the more we pay.  Our costs were up 15% last 
month.  The other, maybe worse issue, is that we have to increase the 
capacity to towers that have heavy users on them.  Possibly to the 
point of a dedicated ap to cover just a customer or three.  Now we're 
really talking bucks and spectrum issues etc.


My original idea was that if a person went over by a gig or two we'd 
ding them a few dollars as a shot across the bow kind of thing.  
Around 50 of our 400 users are going over the new 4 gig level 
though.  Some will fix that by getting postini and dropping the 
spam.  Some will fix that by getting the kids

Re: [WISPA] bits per mbps

2006-12-22 Thread Tom DeReggi
I have not had the guts to do what Marlon does. But that doesn't mean there 
isn't merit in his method.
Part of the reason is we put in place technology that allows the use of 
available bandwdith with limited impact to other users, therefore taking 
away some of the need to charge for it, if it was jsut going unused any way. 
in otherwords Bandwdith allocated on a fair weighted queuing priority basis.


The advatnage of Marlon's model, is he has the data to pick and chose 
customers. The high bandwdith hogs gets given to the competition or pay.
The second a network starts reaching capacity and the market penetration 
doesn't, it becomes feasible to be happy not keeping all customers, instead 
you pick the most profitable customers.  The facts are the the network 
supports it or it doesn't, the provider can afford to upgrade or they can't. 
What I'm learning is, selling 10mbps peak speeds allows you to play the 
Comcast game, and beat them at it.


I'm selling unlimited now, but its important to track the usage. That might 
have to change, as people start using the links to replace their VCRs. The 
reality is, eventuality one will have to port limit or charge per bit.  I'm 
jsut avoiding that day until it has to happen, so I don't lose customers for 
the greater good, unless I have to.


Tom DeReggi
RapidDSL  Wireless, Inc
IntAirNet- Fixed Wireless Broadband


- Original Message - 
From: David E. Smith [EMAIL PROTECTED]

To: WISPA General List wireless@wispa.org
Sent: Friday, December 22, 2006 4:42 PM
Subject: Re: [WISPA] bits per mbps



Marlon K. Schafer (509) 982-2181 wrote:


First, I have to figure out how many kbps a gig of download would be.
Specifically, I've got a couple of customers doing 50 gigs per month.
How many kbps does it take to generate that?


Assuming a month is 30 days (nice round number), 50GB/month is about
161kbps, all the time. That's the equivalent of, say, leaving a
high-quality streaming radio station running, or a low-quality video
feed like gbs.tv.

I'm staying out of the rest of the discussion, because I'm violently
allergic to pay-by-the-bit pricing. It may make good sense to the
bookkeeper, but with streaming media (YouTube, Google Video), big
downloadable media (iTunes movies, Amazon Unbox), and giant software
downloads (World of Warcraft and just about every other MMORPG) becoming
more prevalent, I think it's just gonna seriously annoy your users in
the long term.

David Smith
MVN.net
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Re: [WISPA] bits per mbps

2006-12-22 Thread Andrew Niemantsverdriet

How are you guys tracking usage? What program are you using to measure
it and are you measureing every bit or an average?

On 12/22/06, Tom DeReggi [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote:

I have not had the guts to do what Marlon does. But that doesn't mean there
isn't merit in his method.
Part of the reason is we put in place technology that allows the use of
available bandwdith with limited impact to other users, therefore taking
away some of the need to charge for it, if it was jsut going unused any way.
in otherwords Bandwdith allocated on a fair weighted queuing priority basis.

The advatnage of Marlon's model, is he has the data to pick and chose
customers. The high bandwdith hogs gets given to the competition or pay.
The second a network starts reaching capacity and the market penetration
doesn't, it becomes feasible to be happy not keeping all customers, instead
you pick the most profitable customers.  The facts are the the network
supports it or it doesn't, the provider can afford to upgrade or they can't.
What I'm learning is, selling 10mbps peak speeds allows you to play the
Comcast game, and beat them at it.

I'm selling unlimited now, but its important to track the usage. That might
have to change, as people start using the links to replace their VCRs. The
reality is, eventuality one will have to port limit or charge per bit.  I'm
jsut avoiding that day until it has to happen, so I don't lose customers for
the greater good, unless I have to.

Tom DeReggi
RapidDSL  Wireless, Inc
IntAirNet- Fixed Wireless Broadband


- Original Message -
From: David E. Smith [EMAIL PROTECTED]
To: WISPA General List wireless@wispa.org
Sent: Friday, December 22, 2006 4:42 PM
Subject: Re: [WISPA] bits per mbps


 Marlon K. Schafer (509) 982-2181 wrote:

 First, I have to figure out how many kbps a gig of download would be.
 Specifically, I've got a couple of customers doing 50 gigs per month.
 How many kbps does it take to generate that?

 Assuming a month is 30 days (nice round number), 50GB/month is about
 161kbps, all the time. That's the equivalent of, say, leaving a
 high-quality streaming radio station running, or a low-quality video
 feed like gbs.tv.

 I'm staying out of the rest of the discussion, because I'm violently
 allergic to pay-by-the-bit pricing. It may make good sense to the
 bookkeeper, but with streaming media (YouTube, Google Video), big
 downloadable media (iTunes movies, Amazon Unbox), and giant software
 downloads (World of Warcraft and just about every other MMORPG) becoming
 more prevalent, I think it's just gonna seriously annoy your users in
 the long term.

 David Smith
 MVN.net
 --
 WISPA Wireless List: wireless@wispa.org

 Subscribe/Unsubscribe:
 http://lists.wispa.org/mailman/listinfo/wireless

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Re: [WISPA] bits per mbps

2006-12-22 Thread jefflist
Hi Marlon,

Merry Christmas to you and your family!

Just a thought, you might want to fire those 9 customers.

You could also rate-limit them down to 56K and see how long they stick around.
Jeff

-Original Message-

From:  Marlon K. Schafer (509) 982-2181 [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Subj:  Re: [WISPA] bits per mbps
Date:  Fri Dec 22, 2006 5:29 pm
Size:  3K
To:  WISPA General List wireless@wispa.org

Cause it takes just 9 uers at 50 gigs per month to double my BW costs.

At $35 per month in service fees, the 50 gig user chews up more than 10% of 
my costs.

He needs to pay more.

Or, he needs to get his service from you.  Just be glad you aren't a 
competitor of mine.  Right now, we have 9 users over 10 gigs per month. 
That means that 5% of my customers are more than, much more than, 5% of my 
bw costs.  The average person is using less than 2 gigs.

Worst of all, the OTHER customers on the towers that the highest of the high 
end users are calling about bad service.

Soo000, how would you like to be a competitor here, knowing that I'm gonna 
give you the highest of the bw hogs?  What are YOU gonna do to stay in 
business?

laters,
Marlon
(509) 982-2181   Equipment sales
(408) 907-6910 (Vonage)Consulting services
42846865 (icq)And I run my own wisp!
[EMAIL PROTECTED]
www.odessaoffice.com/wireless
www.odessaoffice.com/marlon/cam



- Original Message - 
From: George Rogato [EMAIL PROTECTED]
To: WISPA General List wireless@wispa.org
Sent: Friday, December 22, 2006 1:45 PM
Subject: Re: [WISPA] bits per mbps


 Guess it cmes down to what you are selling and what does it cost you to do 
 business.

 First f, you are selling a simle internet conection for a casual user. If 
 you want you can squeeze them fr every little bit.

 I wonder why you have to charge them more, if you are being billed at the 
 95%

 My understanding is the 95 percentile is a snap shot at peak time and the 
 top 5% lobbed of to come up with your usage. What this means to me is that 
 on wed evening at 8PM when you hit 9.543megs a second which is your 
 highest usage, could be sunday morning or friday evening for that matter, 
 they call that the peak and lob off 5% and bill you there.

 So on monday morning when you are going 4.5 or 2.2MBPS or sat evening when 
 you hit 5 or 6 megs, there is no difference in cost to you. t's all under 
 the peak.

 So why bother unless your true goal is to figure out how hard you can 
 squeeze you sub. Which is not right or wrong, just your business not any 
 ones elses.

 I have a sub that uploads a 250 meg file twice a day to my server and does 
 this every day.
 If he was your sub how much would you charge them?

 George


 Marlon K. Schafer (509) 982-2181 wrote:
 Hi All,

 OK, so now that we know who our heavy users are I have to come up with a 
 couple of things.

 First, I have to figure out how many kbps a gig of download would be. 
 Specifically, I've got a couple of customers doing 50 gigs per month. 
 How many kbps does it take to generate that?

 We pay for our internet based on kbps.

 Next, what do we do for an overage fee?  Currently it's set as $5 for the 
 first gig, $10 for the second, $20 for the third etc.  At 25 gigs the 
 customer has a $5,000,000 bill.  Sure that'll run off the abusers, but 
 I'd rather find a more reasonable way to bill them.

 We have a business customer that legitimately uses 40 to 50 gig per 

--- message truncated ---


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