RE: # Re: [WSG] Beta Testers Needed for BCAT
-Original Message- From:f Hassan Schroeder Christie Mason wrote: Yes, I've tried Flex and abandoned the effort. ... Plus, there's the maintenance issue. Simple example I always use is what if you had to change a corporate logo in every Flash file? To do that with a dynamic database approach you change the file once and that's it. To change it in every Flash file... HS .. you do exactly the same thing, because it's not in every Flash file at all. CM - I wasn't talking about Flex. I was referring to Flash. I can see that I wasn't clear when I changed thoughts. HS Yes, you obviously didn't get very far with Flex -- so, why are you arguing the (de)merits of a technology you don't understand? CM - Instead of humphing at me, educate me and by extension everyone else. What does Flex do better, faster, cheaper than a text based database with links to graphics, video/Flash, etc using PHP, ASP (scripts) or ASP.NET (framework)? Plus, I'd be curious as to availability of the Flex server in remote hosts. I haven't seen any offer it, is it still so pricey(?), but I also haven't been looking for it. As a user of Cold Fusion many years ago I'd also be interested in learning more about its current market share. How is AIR doing? At first AIR was intriguing but then I haven't met any need that it fulfilled. Hassan, I also have a theory that I'd like to test with you. Do you use Macs as your primary computer or PC? I think the very visual are drawn towards using Macs and Flash. It's fine to be visually oriented, I'm not using it as a judgment call because I think it's just as difficult for highly visual people to remember that not everyone shares their preference as it is for those that aren't highly visual to remember to use graphics for those that are highly visual. I'm not a highly visual person, I even prefer reading data to being given a graph. I don't see the value of most rich interface methods because it's been my experience than when people start focusing on making the interface/content flash around, then usability is degraded and content quality is decreased because first the budget bucks go towards make it sing/dance before taking the time to build a solid structure that easily creates and maintains useful content. So back to the original, still unanswered question. What are the advantages of using Flash (Flex etal)? Christie Mason *** List Guidelines: http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm Unsubscribe: http://webstandardsgroup.org/join/unsubscribe.cfm Help: memberh...@webstandardsgroup.org ***
Re: # Re: [WSG] Beta Testers Needed for BCAT
I hope I can throw my 2 cents in. Not trying to argue, but to TRY and answer some questions. A question was asked early in this thread about what are the benefits of using Flash? There's been no answer to that question. I was hoping to learn some answers because I've been confused about why it's become so widely used in eLearning. Okay, first this part of the answer. There are different types of ways that people learn. I suggest reading: http://www.worldwidelearn.com/education-articles/how-do-you-learn.htm or http://www.google.com/search?q=types+of+learningsourceid=navclient-ffie=UTF-8rlz=1B3GGGL_enUS301US303 the above is a quick search. But in other ways, there have been found different ways besides the three listed in the first link. Interaction. Here is an interaction information link, it is in pdf: http://www.sloan-c.org/publications/books/interactions.pdf and to search: http://www.google.com/search?q=interaction+learningsourceid=navclient-ffie=UTF-8rlz=1B3GGGL_enUS301US303 there are a lot of other different, informative links on that search. Interaction is one the greatest styles of learning there is, in my opinion (don't jump at that, because it is just my opinion, although I must stress that my opinion mainly depends on the subject being taught). Flash can help tremendously with interaction, although that is not the only way. An excellently developed Flash eLearning solution will add a lot of different types of learning solutions to it. Most do. In an excellently developed site, you will have links to different portions of the file, where one may be to read what needs to be read, one may have one spoken to you, and another may ask for questions and answers. Others, may things where you need to drag objects to stage or link one side (which may contain a list of words) to the other (the definitions of those words) (you click the word, then click the definition to check answer). And yet, even more others, will contain videos that someone can watch to see something being done, if they are a visual learner. In these regards, Flash can offer many different advantages to ALL different styles of learning. But, like the arguments posted, there is the question of Accessibility. There is no reason that flash cannot be used on a site. Some have stated that a little can add depth to a site. Well, my question to those statements, how are you saying your site is accessible if you do not have an accessible Flash file on it? You cannot, unless you say it is accessible on only the main parts of the site. But, that would leave a large part of the disabled out if they cannot see what is happening. Flash is a way to do learning online, just like the combination of HTML/CSS/JS/AJAX, etc. And if instructors do want to use Flash for whatever reason, then by all means, make accessible Flash. You cannot change all the teachers in the world, it is impossible, and Flash is here to stay. Um, I hope that explains it, I noticed when rereading it might not fully explain, if it doesn't let me know. BCAT's developers have a serious nerve asking the WSG community to provide feedback on a site they've built, but then require that a) people compromise their freedom by signing an NDA to even view the site, and then add insult to injury by b) making the terms of the NDA available only in a non-standard, proprietary MS Word DOC format. On the first part I disagree, they do not. But on the last part, I would have to agree (the b) part). But, again but, people do not compromise freedom by being asked to sign an NDA. That is an argument either way understandably. I can agree that you shouldn't be asked to sign an NDA, but on the other hand, I can agree that you should. I can agree in the since that they are protecting their site from being compromised, meaning they do not want word to slip out on what is being developed yet, since it may or may not be completed. On the other hand, I cannot agree with that NDA, because of the b) part, and the fact that you are being asked to look at it, and it is a waste of time having to read it, agree to it, and then get to the point of the matter. Both arguments listed. Simon said, (not trying to get hateful) and I quote: Ultimately teachers should aim to teach the skills that are required of students entering the industry. It's not uncommon that many secondary and tertiary IT and web media courses are grossly outdated. From my experience this is mostly attributed to the teacher's education in the field which they received when they did their tertiary education in order to teach, and have since not remained up to date with new developments and sadly even standards. Money and a requirement to regularly attend courses to keep educators up to date help in this regard but nothing beats personal interest—the high school IT teacher that in their own time is actively involved in his or her field will be more likely to teach his students about the latest relevant and
Re: # Re: [WSG] Beta Testers Needed for BCAT
Hi WSG, This entire argument is getting a bit much. Nothing on the web is in and of itself particularly accessible. Accessibility in HTML is a joke unless you have been taught the right practices. Flash was, is, and will continue to be, primarily, a tool for delivery of rich, interactive media. To that end accessibility in flash is almost a moot point, as you're never going to be able to enable a blind person to watch a video. If the issue is text, you shouldn't be using Flash, and if you are you should be implementing it in a manner that allows for graceful degradation. I know I'm glossing the issue, but bear with me. Plenty of teachers, trainers, training providers, universities, TAFEs, schools, HR areas, etc are essentially lazy and can't be bothered to actually understand learning theory. This is why they 'continue to be committed to linear, push methodologies', it's easy to understand and cheep to develop. Vendor just give the market what they want. TAFEs and other para-tertiary institutions do this because that is what they are there to do. Their purpose is to give students the skills necessary to get a job and then self-perpetuate their skills. My experience of universities is that they don't do this at all. Even the less technical I.T. degrees will throw a smorgasbord of programming languages (no one goes to university to write HTML) and development methodologies at you and let you figure out which one works best for you. The result of being a good programmer is that it becomes easy to pick up ActionScript and use it well. Virtually no one writes good ActionScript. I've never taught flash to a class, so I won't speculate on its usefulness. It is in my opinion something that should be taught to I.T. students because of the ubiquity of Flash on the web. I think the argument against Flash in eLearning is flawed. It sounds more like an argument of how Flash is being used in eLearning. The issue doesn't lie with Flash itself, but with how eLearning software producers are using it. Teacher/trainer decision makers don't love the web, possibly because they can't control it. This is mostly untrue, teachers do love the web. Occasionally you will find a teacher whose methods are out of date, but most commonly the issues lie with course curricula. I have hope that the tide is turning. Teachers/trainers have experienced the difficulties in creating and maintaining their content in Flash (just try changing one image used in multiple Flash files and the difficulties become clear) Again, this boils down to being a bad Flash developer. It took me a few seconds to think of a way to modify an image in multiple Flash files at once (without interrupting their availability to users either). the web generation is beginning to pierce/influence decision making levels, students/employees that love the web push to learn from formal resources the way they informally learn from the web, plus content changes in ever decreasing time cycles which leaves little time to build and rebuild Flash delivered content. I am a student. Formal resources are about the best damn thing that university has provided me. Unfortunately it's (arguably) not fun or cool to read a programming book cover to cover, so I can see why people complain. Stop using the term 'love the web'. Lots of people love the web, I'm sure, but it doesn't mean they have the first clue what's good for it. The few times I have seen Flash used well and written well it's beautiful. It's amazing. It's like having sunshine flowing through your vains. So, do you blame HTML for every poorly coded website? Do you blame Flash for every bad use of Flash? Anyway, it seems like this entire argument would be better stated as People who hate Flash because it doesn't behave in a manner identical to HTML, and also because it isn't HTML. - James *** List Guidelines: http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm Unsubscribe: http://webstandardsgroup.org/join/unsubscribe.cfm Help: memberh...@webstandardsgroup.org ***
Re: # Re: [WSG] Beta Testers Needed for BCAT
Christie Mason wrote: CM - I wasn't talking about Flex. I was referring to Flash. I can see that I wasn't clear when I changed thoughts. And again, missing the point: Flash is a *platform* with which you can do a variety of things. It's not 1998 any more, and Flash is only about Dancing Hampsters(sic) if *you* want it to be. CM - Instead of humphing at me, educate me and by extension everyone else. What does Flex do better, faster, cheaper than a text based database with links to graphics, video/Flash, etc It's *integrated* with the video, graphics, sound. Let's say you're teaching bicycle mechanics, and you have a video that demonstrates replacing a cog in a cassette. As the component is disassembled, you want to show the name and details of each piece as text to one side, and maybe warnings/cautions on the other, with a static exploded view of the assembly above where each component is highlighted as it's being removed in the video. You might be able to do that with the JavaScript-ActionScript bridge and plain HTML but I guarantee it would be a /lot/ clumsier. :-) Plus, I'd be curious as to availability of the Flex server in remote hosts. I haven't seen any offer it, is it still so pricey(?) No idea, check with Adobe. My last Flex project was a couple years ago, and I'm pretty sure they've changed the licensing since then. And there's also OpenLaszlo, of course. Hassan, I also have a theory that I'd like to test with you. Do you use Macs as your primary computer or PC? I think the very visual are drawn towards using Macs and Flash. I don't think it's about me :-) The point is using the proper tool for the job, and any application with multimedia aspects is a candidate for a Flash-based solution. I'm not a highly visual person, I even prefer reading data to being given a graph. I spend most of my time in a text editor or bash, regardless of what platform I'm using. But that's probably not germane to this discussion, either. I don't see the value of most rich interface methods because it's been my experience than when people start focusing on making the interface/content flash around How about focusing on using multimedia to add value, to create a more effective learning experience, as I hopefully demonstrated above? FWIW, -- Hassan Schroeder - has...@webtuitive.com Webtuitive Design === (+1) 408-621-3445 === http://webtuitive.com dream. code. *** List Guidelines: http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm Unsubscribe: http://webstandardsgroup.org/join/unsubscribe.cfm Help: memberh...@webstandardsgroup.org ***
Re: # Re: [WSG] Beta Testers Needed for BCAT
THANK YOU!!! I could not agree with you more. And in the same since, I think we agree with each other. Congratulations on an argument well-played. And well-thought!!! -- Brett P. On Wed, Jan 14, 2009 at 11:05 AM, James Ducker james.duc...@gmail.comwrote: Hi WSG, This entire argument is getting a bit much. Nothing on the web is in and of itself particularly accessible. Accessibility in HTML is a joke unless you have been taught the right practices. Flash was, is, and will continue to be, primarily, a tool for delivery of rich, interactive media. To that end accessibility in flash is almost a moot point, as you're never going to be able to enable a blind person to watch a video. If the issue is text, you shouldn't be using Flash, and if you are you should be implementing it in a manner that allows for graceful degradation. I know I'm glossing the issue, but bear with me. Plenty of teachers, trainers, training providers, universities, TAFEs, schools, HR areas, etc are essentially lazy and can't be bothered to actually understand learning theory. This is why they 'continue to be committed to linear, push methodologies', it's easy to understand and cheep to develop. Vendor just give the market what they want. TAFEs and other para-tertiary institutions do this because that is what they are there to do. Their purpose is to give students the skills necessary to get a job and then self-perpetuate their skills. My experience of universities is that they don't do this at all. Even the less technical I.T. degrees will throw a smorgasbord of programming languages (no one goes to university to write HTML) and development methodologies at you and let you figure out which one works best for you. The result of being a good programmer is that it becomes easy to pick up ActionScript and use it well. Virtually no one writes good ActionScript. I've never taught flash to a class, so I won't speculate on its usefulness. It is in my opinion something that should be taught to I.T. students because of the ubiquity of Flash on the web. I think the argument against Flash in eLearning is flawed. It sounds more like an argument of how Flash is being used in eLearning. The issue doesn't lie with Flash itself, but with how eLearning software producers are using it. Teacher/trainer decision makers don't love the web, possibly because they can't control it. This is mostly untrue, teachers do love the web. Occasionally you will find a teacher whose methods are out of date, but most commonly the issues lie with course curricula. I have hope that the tide is turning. Teachers/trainers have experienced the difficulties in creating and maintaining their content in Flash (just try changing one image used in multiple Flash files and the difficulties become clear) Again, this boils down to being a bad Flash developer. It took me a few seconds to think of a way to modify an image in multiple Flash files at once (without interrupting their availability to users either). the web generation is beginning to pierce/influence decision making levels, students/employees that love the web push to learn from formal resources the way they informally learn from the web, plus content changes in ever decreasing time cycles which leaves little time to build and rebuild Flash delivered content. I am a student. Formal resources are about the best damn thing that university has provided me. Unfortunately it's (arguably) not fun or cool to read a programming book cover to cover, so I can see why people complain. Stop using the term 'love the web'. Lots of people love the web, I'm sure, but it doesn't mean they have the first clue what's good for it. The few times I have seen Flash used well and written well it's beautiful. It's amazing. It's like having sunshine flowing through your vains. So, do you blame HTML for every poorly coded website? Do you blame Flash for every bad use of Flash? Anyway, it seems like this entire argument would be better stated as People who hate Flash because it doesn't behave in a manner identical to HTML, and also because it isn't HTML. - James *** List Guidelines: http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm Unsubscribe: http://webstandardsgroup.org/join/unsubscribe.cfm Help: memberh...@webstandardsgroup.org *** *** List Guidelines: http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm Unsubscribe: http://webstandardsgroup.org/join/unsubscribe.cfm Help: memberh...@webstandardsgroup.org ***
Re: # Re: [WSG] Beta Testers Needed for BCAT
Christie, your argument is about the most ridiculous argument there is. Everything you have stated is SOLELY about you and your personal preferences. Observe: I'm not a highly visual person, I even prefer reading data to being given a graph. So what? *NONE OF THIS IS ABOUT YOU!!!* Your personal preference is irrelevant, as well as mine. Other people may not like reading. They may be more visual. Focus on everyone, not yourself, and you CANNOT design a web page if you only focus on yourself and how you may view and read it. It can't happen. Unless you want people to view only how you viewed it when designing. You also state: Hassan, I also have a theory that I'd like to test with you. Do you use Macs as your primary computer or PC? I think the very visual are drawn towards using Macs and Flash. I don't think it's about me :-) True, Hassan, it's not about you. Christie, do you think Macs are not PC's? Because they are. And PC's (Personal Computers, that is what a PC stands for) is too broad a subject. Clarify!!! Since you like to read, here is this, http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Personal_computer it shows the definition and what is included in the subject. Such as Macs and Windows and Linux-based OS are PC's. Again using the quote above, you are also Stereotyping. Not all people are drawn towards Macs and Flash. Some maybe drawn to Linux, Ubuntu, Windows, etc. -- Brett P. On Wed, Jan 14, 2009 at 11:21 AM, Hassan Schroeder has...@webtuitive.comwrote: Christie Mason wrote: CM - I wasn't talking about Flex. I was referring to Flash. I can see that I wasn't clear when I changed thoughts. And again, missing the point: Flash is a *platform* with which you can do a variety of things. It's not 1998 any more, and Flash is only about Dancing Hampsters(sic) if *you* want it to be. CM - Instead of humphing at me, educate me and by extension everyone else. What does Flex do better, faster, cheaper than a text based database with links to graphics, video/Flash, etc It's *integrated* with the video, graphics, sound. Let's say you're teaching bicycle mechanics, and you have a video that demonstrates replacing a cog in a cassette. As the component is disassembled, you want to show the name and details of each piece as text to one side, and maybe warnings/cautions on the other, with a static exploded view of the assembly above where each component is highlighted as it's being removed in the video. You might be able to do that with the JavaScript-ActionScript bridge and plain HTML but I guarantee it would be a /lot/ clumsier. :-) Plus, I'd be curious as to availability of the Flex server in remote hosts. I haven't seen any offer it, is it still so pricey(?) No idea, check with Adobe. My last Flex project was a couple years ago, and I'm pretty sure they've changed the licensing since then. And there's also OpenLaszlo, of course. Hassan, I also have a theory that I'd like to test with you. Do you use Macs as your primary computer or PC? I think the very visual are drawn towards using Macs and Flash. I don't think it's about me :-) The point is using the proper tool for the job, and any application with multimedia aspects is a candidate for a Flash-based solution. I'm not a highly visual person, I even prefer reading data to being given a graph. I spend most of my time in a text editor or bash, regardless of what platform I'm using. But that's probably not germane to this discussion, either. I don't see the value of most rich interface methods because it's been my experience than when people start focusing on making the interface/content flash around How about focusing on using multimedia to add value, to create a more effective learning experience, as I hopefully demonstrated above? FWIW, -- Hassan Schroeder - has...@webtuitive.com Webtuitive Design === (+1) 408-621-3445 === http://webtuitive.com dream. code. *** List Guidelines: http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm Unsubscribe: http://webstandardsgroup.org/join/unsubscribe.cfm Help: memberh...@webstandardsgroup.org *** *** List Guidelines: http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm Unsubscribe: http://webstandardsgroup.org/join/unsubscribe.cfm Help: memberh...@webstandardsgroup.org ***
Re: # Re: [WSG] Beta Testers Needed for BCAT
The below was to James Ducker. -- Brett P. On Wed, Jan 14, 2009 at 11:23 AM, Brett Patterson inspiron.patters...@gmail.com wrote: THANK YOU!!! I could not agree with you more. And in the same since, I think we agree with each other. Congratulations on an argument well-played. And well-thought!!! -- Brett P. On Wed, Jan 14, 2009 at 11:05 AM, James Ducker james.duc...@gmail.comwrote: Hi WSG, This entire argument is getting a bit much. Nothing on the web is in and of itself particularly accessible. Accessibility in HTML is a joke unless you have been taught the right practices. Flash was, is, and will continue to be, primarily, a tool for delivery of rich, interactive media. To that end accessibility in flash is almost a moot point, as you're never going to be able to enable a blind person to watch a video. If the issue is text, you shouldn't be using Flash, and if you are you should be implementing it in a manner that allows for graceful degradation. I know I'm glossing the issue, but bear with me. Plenty of teachers, trainers, training providers, universities, TAFEs, schools, HR areas, etc are essentially lazy and can't be bothered to actually understand learning theory. This is why they 'continue to be committed to linear, push methodologies', it's easy to understand and cheep to develop. Vendor just give the market what they want. TAFEs and other para-tertiary institutions do this because that is what they are there to do. Their purpose is to give students the skills necessary to get a job and then self-perpetuate their skills. My experience of universities is that they don't do this at all. Even the less technical I.T. degrees will throw a smorgasbord of programming languages (no one goes to university to write HTML) and development methodologies at you and let you figure out which one works best for you. The result of being a good programmer is that it becomes easy to pick up ActionScript and use it well. Virtually no one writes good ActionScript. I've never taught flash to a class, so I won't speculate on its usefulness. It is in my opinion something that should be taught to I.T. students because of the ubiquity of Flash on the web. I think the argument against Flash in eLearning is flawed. It sounds more like an argument of how Flash is being used in eLearning. The issue doesn't lie with Flash itself, but with how eLearning software producers are using it. Teacher/trainer decision makers don't love the web, possibly because they can't control it. This is mostly untrue, teachers do love the web. Occasionally you will find a teacher whose methods are out of date, but most commonly the issues lie with course curricula. I have hope that the tide is turning. Teachers/trainers have experienced the difficulties in creating and maintaining their content in Flash (just try changing one image used in multiple Flash files and the difficulties become clear) Again, this boils down to being a bad Flash developer. It took me a few seconds to think of a way to modify an image in multiple Flash files at once (without interrupting their availability to users either). the web generation is beginning to pierce/influence decision making levels, students/employees that love the web push to learn from formal resources the way they informally learn from the web, plus content changes in ever decreasing time cycles which leaves little time to build and rebuild Flash delivered content. I am a student. Formal resources are about the best damn thing that university has provided me. Unfortunately it's (arguably) not fun or cool to read a programming book cover to cover, so I can see why people complain. Stop using the term 'love the web'. Lots of people love the web, I'm sure, but it doesn't mean they have the first clue what's good for it. The few times I have seen Flash used well and written well it's beautiful. It's amazing. It's like having sunshine flowing through your vains. So, do you blame HTML for every poorly coded website? Do you blame Flash for every bad use of Flash? Anyway, it seems like this entire argument would be better stated as People who hate Flash because it doesn't behave in a manner identical to HTML, and also because it isn't HTML. - James *** List Guidelines: http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm Unsubscribe: http://webstandardsgroup.org/join/unsubscribe.cfm Help: memberh...@webstandardsgroup.org *** *** List Guidelines: http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm Unsubscribe: http://webstandardsgroup.org/join/unsubscribe.cfm Help: memberh...@webstandardsgroup.org ***
Re: # Re: [WSG] Beta Testers Needed for BCAT
On 1/14/09 5:38 AM, Christie Mason cma...@managersforum.com wrote: Plus, I'd be curious as to availability of the Flex server in remote hosts. I haven't seen any offer it, is it still so pricey(?), but I also haven't been looking for it. Flex hasn't been sold on a server basis since 1.5, which was released in 2004. Flex 3 was released as an open-source SDK, along with a commercial, Eclipse-based IDE called Flex Builder (which, btw, is free for educational users--as is ColdFusion). - m *** List Guidelines: http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm Unsubscribe: http://webstandardsgroup.org/join/unsubscribe.cfm Help: memberh...@webstandardsgroup.org ***
RE: # Re: [WSG] Beta Testers Needed for BCAT
From: Brett Patterson (BP) BP - Okay, first this part of the answer. There are different types of ways that people learn. I suggest reading: http://www.worldwidelearn.com/education-articles/how-do-you-learn.htm CM - That's a very simplistic theory of how people learn and it's actually a communication theory that, maybe because it's really simple, became accepted as a learning theory. That link is a simplification of what I learned as AVK (Auditory, Visual, Kinesthetic) from NLP. I thought AVK was the answer to all until I reflected on it, taught it, applied it and found it... fun but useless. The educational system rewards those that learn visually so many have adapted to learning visually. Everyone learns better by doing/experiencing/feeling so everyone's a Kinesthetic. Auditory seems to be the only optional preference, but the cost of meeting auditory learning preferences is very high. Also, it seems that offering high auditory experiences tends to be negatively received by those that don't have an auditory preference, so it's best as an option. No one really seems to know what AVK is based upon. It seems to me it may be based on what's usually quoted as Mehrabrian's 7/38/55 communication rule which is in incomplete interpretation of his findings http://www.coachteam.no/Documents/MytenOmNonverbalKommunikasjon.pdf Somewhere this myth got started and it should be ignored. CM - NLP does offer some clues about writing content for web display, aka communicating concepts.. You can write so that people can hear the words singing, feel the punch of an idea, see the interaction of concepts. What is learning other than communicating, even selling, someone the need to learn, to change what they know? Flash s/b used when it increases communication, not just because it's the only way someone knows how to put content on the web. If all you have is a hammer, everything looks like a nail http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Golden_hammer BP - or http://www.google.com/search?q=types+of+learningsourceid=navclient-ffie=UT F-8rlz=1B3GGGL_enUS301US303 CM - Multiple Intelligence is also another learning theory that seems to ring true but I've been unable to figure out how to apply all types of intelligence into organizing and displaying content on the web. CM - As far as learning theory, I'm a Constructionist. Very simply that means that I believe people construct their own learning framework by seeking out resources that meet their needs. If what they need isn't presented in a way that matches their preferences, they'll adapt to whatever is available, as long as they can find it. Making content findable seems to parallel making it accessible. CM - For more useful learning theories, look at Kolb (Active Experimentation, Concrete Experience, Reflective Observation , Abstract Conceptualization) http://www.businessballs.com/kolblearningstyles.htm and Soloman/Felder/Silverman (Active -- Reflective, Sensing --Intuitive, Visual -- Verbal, Sequential -- Global) CM - What I've really learned about all the learning theories and styles, after more than 20 years of involvement not a quick search, is that none of them are practical because people change their learning style based on environment and what they're trying to learn. What I've found most useful is personality/communication styles. Seems that all the personality style matrixes, and most learning styles, that I've seen can be boiled down to task - social and detail - whole picture preferences. I can match those preferences on the web by offering short overviews with opportunities to drill out to more detail (which c/b video/Flash/audio) and/or offer social interaction opportunities - like this forum. BP - Interaction is one the greatest styles of learning there is, in my opinion...Flash can help tremendously with interaction, although that is not the only way. An excellently developed Flash eLearning solution will add a lot of different types of learning solutions to it. Most do. In an excellently developed site, you will have links to different portions of the file, where one may be to read what needs to be read, one may have one spoken to you, and another may ask for questions and answers. CM - Interaction is more than clicking on a link or moving things around on a screen. Those links are easier to develop and manage with HTML, plus there's still the additional cost of developing/maintaining Flash plus addt'l costs to make it as accessible as text/graphics. Yes, Flash can be used but it should never be the only tool that's used. If a concept can ONLY be understood if the learner HAS to SEE it in action then even adding all the accessibility add ons to Flash won't help. In addition, I've found that need to be rare and certainly no reason to justify putting all content into Flash. BP - Flash is a way to do learning online, just like the combination of HTML/CSS/JS/AJAX, etc. And if instructors do want to use Flash for whatever reason, then
RE: # Re: [WSG] Beta Testers Needed for BCAT
Brett you are correct, This is a personal theory based on some personal observations. Do you use a Mac as your primary development computer? Christie Mason *** List Guidelines: http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm Unsubscribe: http://webstandardsgroup.org/join/unsubscribe.cfm Help: memberh...@webstandardsgroup.org ***
RE: # Re: [WSG] Beta Testers Needed for BCAT
-Original Message- From: Hassan Schroeder It's *integrated* with the video, graphics, sound. Let's say you're teaching bicycle mechanics, and you have a video that demonstrates replacing a cog in a cassette. As the component is disassembled, you want to show the name and details of each piece as text to one side, and maybe warnings/cautions on the other, with a static exploded view of the assembly above where each component is highlighted as it's being removed in the video. CM - that sounds useful but MY preference would also be to have a text based cheat sheet to scan the steps then link out to the multimedia detail. Start simple, offer the rich option, track how much the rich option is accessed to determine its usefulness and cost justification. How about focusing on using multimedia to add value, to create a more effective learning experience, as I hopefully demonstrated above? CM - As long as there's a recognition that using multimedia at all times doesn't always add value, it's fine with me. Christie Mason *** List Guidelines: http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm Unsubscribe: http://webstandardsgroup.org/join/unsubscribe.cfm Help: memberh...@webstandardsgroup.org ***
Re: # Re: [WSG] Beta Testers Needed for BCAT
Pardon the language, but Hell no. For a number of different reasons. Among that being, I can't work with the code as good as I can with Microsoft's and the fact that it costs too much money. Although it is proprietary, I can recode most of what I need to do (Microsoft's code). To say I disagree with you, or anyone else for that matter, about Flash not being used by people properly, would be a lie. Even being used on the Web itself, I would say that is a lie if I disagree. But, I must at least agree with the people who are trying to make it accessible. It doesn't matter what we think about it, it's going to be there regardless, so instead we need to work on accessibility of ALL things that go on the Web. Having looked at the solution by BCAT, or whatever it's called, I have noticed some major improvements, and most importantly, that it cannot only be applied to eLearning, but other ways of Flash uses as well. This is why I promote it, now. And I must say that all teachers/educators, whatever word you wish to use, do recognize different ways to show content off. Even I know different ways. Everyone that does use Flash for eLearning, offers different ways to learn it. But again, like I said, not my opinion about using it that matters, nor anyone else's. What does matter though, is this, (again to reiterate) it will be there no matter what, whether we like it or not, so let's work on the making it accessible together, get it done and be done with it. True to anyone that says it should be Adobe's problem to fix. I agree. But they are lazy, so it is up to other people to fix their problem. Okay, so I really don't want to have to fix it, you don't want to fix it, we don't want to fix it, but BCAT is stepping up and taking charge and fixing it. Let's support them, and hope it works. As long as they don't charge. Then it becomes a-whole-nother story. But beyond that, more power to them. Christie, we are both Constructionists in the term you defined. But I am also a Visionary. Plus, I try to help make Tim Berners-Lee's goals possible. Those that argue the point it should not be made accessible and not put on the web are saying they don't care about his vision of the WWW. Why do I say they don't care? Because it's one of either two things, with no other possibility. These two choices are either: 1) You don't care about Mr. Berners-Lee's vision or the WWW, for that matter. or 2) Your ignorant, because you have accepted or don't know that Flash is here to stay. -- Brett P. On Wed, Jan 14, 2009 at 2:11 PM, Christie Mason cma...@managersforum.comwrote: Brett you are correct, This is a personal theory based on some personal observations. Do you use a Mac as your primary development computer? Christie Mason *** List Guidelines: http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm Unsubscribe: http://webstandardsgroup.org/join/unsubscribe.cfm Help: memberh...@webstandardsgroup.org *** *** List Guidelines: http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm Unsubscribe: http://webstandardsgroup.org/join/unsubscribe.cfm Help: memberh...@webstandardsgroup.org ***
Re: # Re: [WSG] Beta Testers Needed for BCAT
Forgot to mention several other things, Christie. 1. If all you have is a hammer, everything looks like a nail, I am still laughing at that. CM - Interaction is more than clicking on a link or moving things around on a screen. Those links are easier to develop and manage with HTML, plus there's still the additional cost of developing/maintaining Flash plus addt'l costs to make it as accessible as text/graphics. Yes, Flash can be used but it should never be the only tool that's used. If a concept can ONLY be understood if the learner HAS to SEE it in action then even adding all the accessibility add ons to Flash won't help. In addition, I've found that need to be rare and certainly no reason to justify putting all content into Flash. Sorry I wasn't as clear as I should have been. Those links are not like using the a tag. They are like lines drawn on a map. Linking (drawing a line) from one side to the other (one word to its definition), a line, if you have ever done it, like connect-the-dots. To the question about this conversation being done in Flash, it very well could have. With some minor changes, we could have talked with video conferencing. Kinda hard to do, but it can be done. -- Brett P. On Wed, Jan 14, 2009 at 2:46 PM, Brett Patterson inspiron.patters...@gmail.com wrote: Pardon the language, but Hell no. For a number of different reasons. Among that being, I can't work with the code as good as I can with Microsoft's and the fact that it costs too much money. Although it is proprietary, I can recode most of what I need to do (Microsoft's code). To say I disagree with you, or anyone else for that matter, about Flash not being used by people properly, would be a lie. Even being used on the Web itself, I would say that is a lie if I disagree. But, I must at least agree with the people who are trying to make it accessible. It doesn't matter what we think about it, it's going to be there regardless, so instead we need to work on accessibility of ALL things that go on the Web. Having looked at the solution by BCAT, or whatever it's called, I have noticed some major improvements, and most importantly, that it cannot only be applied to eLearning, but other ways of Flash uses as well. This is why I promote it, now. And I must say that all teachers/educators, whatever word you wish to use, do recognize different ways to show content off. Even I know different ways. Everyone that does use Flash for eLearning, offers different ways to learn it. But again, like I said, not my opinion about using it that matters, nor anyone else's. What does matter though, is this, (again to reiterate) it will be there no matter what, whether we like it or not, so let's work on the making it accessible together, get it done and be done with it. True to anyone that says it should be Adobe's problem to fix. I agree. But they are lazy, so it is up to other people to fix their problem. Okay, so I really don't want to have to fix it, you don't want to fix it, we don't want to fix it, but BCAT is stepping up and taking charge and fixing it. Let's support them, and hope it works. As long as they don't charge. Then it becomes a-whole-nother story. But beyond that, more power to them. Christie, we are both Constructionists in the term you defined. But I am also a Visionary. Plus, I try to help make Tim Berners-Lee's goals possible. Those that argue the point it should not be made accessible and not put on the web are saying they don't care about his vision of the WWW. Why do I say they don't care? Because it's one of either two things, with no other possibility. These two choices are either: 1) You don't care about Mr. Berners-Lee's vision or the WWW, for that matter. or 2) Your ignorant, because you have accepted or don't know that Flash is here to stay. -- Brett P. On Wed, Jan 14, 2009 at 2:11 PM, Christie Mason cma...@managersforum.comwrote: Brett you are correct, This is a personal theory based on some personal observations. Do you use a Mac as your primary development computer? Christie Mason *** List Guidelines: http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm Unsubscribe: http://webstandardsgroup.org/join/unsubscribe.cfm Help: memberh...@webstandardsgroup.org *** *** List Guidelines: http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm Unsubscribe: http://webstandardsgroup.org/join/unsubscribe.cfm Help: memberh...@webstandardsgroup.org ***
RE: # Re: [WSG] Beta Testers Needed for BCAT
Well there goes that theory. My thoughts were something like graphically oriented people are attracted to using Macs and Flash. BCAT's attempting to make Flash accessible is good but if the content hadn't been made inaccessible in the first place, then it wouldn't be needed. Yes, Flash can be used appropriately to give rich depth to a concept, but it's still primarily used in the eLearning world (including both corporate trainers and educators) to port PPT to Flash and that's just wrong. Christie Mason *** List Guidelines: http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm Unsubscribe: http://webstandardsgroup.org/join/unsubscribe.cfm Help: memberh...@webstandardsgroup.org ***
Re: # Re: [WSG] Beta Testers Needed for BCAT
And we do agree. But again, NOT THE POINT, although it may be wrong, it may need to be designed accessible in the first place, it hasn't, so don't argue the point. End it at the fact that something needs to be done and people are ignorant. BCAT is doing what people should be doing, fixing things that are inaccessible, NO MATTER WHAT! -- Brett P. On Wed, Jan 14, 2009 at 3:22 PM, Christie Mason cma...@managersforum.comwrote: Well there goes that theory. My thoughts were something like graphically oriented people are attracted to using Macs and Flash. BCAT's attempting to make Flash accessible is good but if the content hadn't been made inaccessible in the first place, then it wouldn't be needed. Yes, Flash can be used appropriately to give rich depth to a concept, but it's still primarily used in the eLearning world (including both corporate trainers and educators) to port PPT to Flash and that's just wrong. Christie Mason *** List Guidelines: http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm Unsubscribe: http://webstandardsgroup.org/join/unsubscribe.cfm Help: memberh...@webstandardsgroup.org *** *** List Guidelines: http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm Unsubscribe: http://webstandardsgroup.org/join/unsubscribe.cfm Help: memberh...@webstandardsgroup.org ***
Re: # Re: [WSG] Beta Testers Needed for BCAT
On Jan 14, 2009, at 3:22 PM, Christie Mason wrote: Well there goes that theory. My thoughts were something like graphically oriented people are attracted to using Macs and Flash. BCAT's attempting to make Flash accessible is good but if the content hadn't been made inaccessible in the first place, then it wouldn't be needed. Yes, Flash can be used appropriately to give rich depth to a concept, but it's still primarily used in the eLearning world (including both corporate trainers and educators) to port PPT to Flash and that's just wrong. I'm visually oriented - I got here from graphic design - and I love Macs and like you am less than thrilled with *the uses to which Flash is put on the web* I think the Mac has a better user interface (or at least did). There are things that I do enjoy in Flash. But as others have mentioned these *personal* attitudes are entirely beside the point. None of the arguments you have put forward seem to me to have any real bearing on Flash per se. Yes education is a mess, yes educators are too seldom inspired or inspiring. But uninspired educators are going to be lazy in their use of any tool put at their disposal. Should Flash be banished forever because it is inappropriately used and then poorly implemented? I dunno, should we ban axes on account of Lizzie Borden? sorry, I'm just getting tired of this discussion which has long since degenerated into an extraordinarily verbose repetition of Does! - Doesn't! - Does so! - Oh no it doesn't Seems like the gist was covered days ago, i.e. Flash is a medium that has a history of inappropriate use, but Adobe is making efforts to extend its accessibility. As a tool it has its uses, in the hands of fools it's dangerous. Andrew *** List Guidelines: http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm Unsubscribe: http://webstandardsgroup.org/join/unsubscribe.cfm Help: memberh...@webstandardsgroup.org ***
Re: # Re: [WSG] Beta Testers Needed for BCAT - THREAD CLOSED
THREAD CLOSED GONE ON LONG ENOUGH Please do not reply to this thread any more. Thanks Russ List admin *** List Guidelines: http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm Unsubscribe: http://webstandardsgroup.org/join/unsubscribe.cfm Help: memberh...@webstandardsgroup.org ***
Re: # Re: [WSG] Beta Testers Needed for BCAT
On 1/12/09 2:20 AM, michael.brocking...@bt.com michael.brocking...@bt.com wrote: Quote: The fact is that many educators have found that they can use Flash to teach their students effectively. I think you (and those teachers that you refer to) are mistaking an effective lesson, for effective teaching.* [...] * It may be easier to teach people to use Flash to get a particular result, but at the end of the day they have not learned what they need to know, which is that Flash is Evil. If evil is all you have to say about Flash, then there's not much that can be said. It's clearly not worth taking a reasoned approach to convince you that it has merit as a classroom tool, despite the thousands of teachers and millions of students using it. Also, I think you mis-understand where the problem lies. Because of the way that Flash works, almost all of it is inaccessible to assistive technology. I have to challenge that assertion, as the engineer who's principally responsible for improving the accessibility of Flash. Having followed Flash accessibility since it was first introduced (in 2002), I can tell you that it has improved dramatically since that time, to the extent that I'd argue accessible RIA development in Flash today is more efficient (and definitely better-supported) than the same work done in Ajax. ARIA will help Ajax get to where we are today, but then Ajax authors will be in the same situation: most of them failing, usually unconsciously, to produce accessible applications by default. When that's the case, will you blame Ajax, or its frameworks, or the individual authors? Will Ajax be evil? Adobe could do a better job, the makers of assistive technology could do a better job Great. I'm all ears. What should we do? So far, the impression that I get is that we should give up. Flash being evil and all. But since we continue to improve our accessibility, please feel free to send me your ideas. but there is very little that the man in the middle can do This is the heart of the matter. It's just not true. Flash authors can do a lot to be directly accessible to assistive technology. And bringing it all back to the original message here, that's what BCAT's developers are trying to do. What's wrong with more people producing more accessible Flash content, other than you disliking Flash? - M *** List Guidelines: http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm Unsubscribe: http://webstandardsgroup.org/join/unsubscribe.cfm Help: memberh...@webstandardsgroup.org ***
Re: # Re: [WSG] Beta Testers Needed for BCAT
On Tue, 2009-01-13 at 11:42 -0800, Matt Morgan-May wrote: If evil is all you have to say about Flash, then there's not much that can be said. It's clearly not worth taking a reasoned approach to convince you that it has merit as a classroom tool, despite the thousands of teachers and millions of students using it. Thousands and millions of teachers/students also use MS Powerpoint and MS Word, too (paid for by hapless taxpayers), and we've all seen the horrible uneducated results of that, I'm sure... We web developers use the term angry fruit salad to describe it. Adobe could do a better job, the makers of assistive technology could do a better job Great. I'm all ears. What should we do? So far, the impression that I get is that we should give up. Flash being evil and all. But since we continue to improve our accessibility, please feel free to send me your ideas. In my opinion, the next improvement Adobe Flash needs, if it wants to be acceptable to at least this member of the Web Standards Group audience, would be for Adobe to create the definitive Flash specification, release it under a royalty-free and patent unencumbered license, and try to get ISO certification (without buying/badgering national bodies, a la Microsoft). Then there could be competition in the provision of tools for Flash (rather than the current Adobe monopoly), and I, for one, would be willing to consider using it... where it's appropriate. but there is very little that the man in the middle can do This is the heart of the matter. It's just not true. Flash authors can do a lot to be directly accessible to assistive technology. And bringing it all back to the original message here, that's what BCAT's developers are trying to do. What's wrong with more people producing more accessible Flash content, other than you disliking Flash? BCAT's developers have a serious nerve asking the WSG community to provide feedback on a site they've built, but then require that a) people compromise their freedom by signing an NDA to even view the site, and then add insult to injury by b) making the terms of the NDA available only in a non-standard, proprietary MS Word DOC format. Frankly, I'm amazed that some people (the BCAT guy) have so little appreciation for the audience they're entreating to give them free consultation. Dave -- David Lane = Egressive Ltd = d...@egressive.com = m:+64 21 229 8147 p:+64 3 963 3733 = Linux: it just tastes better = nosoftwarepatents http://egressive.com we only use open standards: http://w3.org Effusion Group Founding Member === http://effusiongroup.com *** List Guidelines: http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm Unsubscribe: http://webstandardsgroup.org/join/unsubscribe.cfm Help: memberh...@webstandardsgroup.org ***
RE: # Re: [WSG] Beta Testers Needed for BCAT
-Original Message- From: li...@webstandardsgroup.org [mailto:li...@webstandardsgroup.org] On Behalf Of Matt Morgan-May Sent: Wednesday, 14 January 2009 6:43 AM To: wsg@webstandardsgroup.org Subject: Re: # Re: [WSG] Beta Testers Needed for BCAT Adobe could do a better job, the makers of assistive technology could do a better job Great. I'm all ears. What should we do? So far, the impression that I get is that we should give up. Don't give up, just enable Accessibility as the default option at the factory. I attended a presentation recently by an Adobe employee and this question was asked twice and he ignored it twice. Kerry --- This email, and any attachments, may be confidential and also privileged. If you are not the intended recipient, please notify the sender and delete all copies of this transmission along with any attachments immediately. You should not copy or use it for any purpose, nor disclose its contents to any other person. --- *** List Guidelines: http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm Unsubscribe: http://webstandardsgroup.org/join/unsubscribe.cfm Help: memberh...@webstandardsgroup.org ***
RE: # Re: [WSG] Beta Testers Needed for BCAT
A question was asked early in this thread about what are the benefits of using Flash? There's been no answer to that question. I was hoping to learn some answers because I've been confused about why it's become so widely used in eLearning. I think I see several factors but I also think I'm still missing part of the puzzle. Christie Barh – to express my frustration about this general topic. I also agree with most of what you’re saying. My first paid web work was developing online learning products in the days before the term eLearning existed (showing my age here). From what you are saying it sounds like the scene has changed little over the last ten years. So from my observation the tide is not turning the whole scene has been riddled with problems since the term got ‘eLearning’ gained buzz word compliant status. So I have couple of slightly different takes on what you’re saying: 1. Teachers/trainers continue to be committed to linear, push methodologies. Plenty of teachers, trainers, training providers, universities, TAFEs, schools, HR areas, etc are essentially lazy and can’t be bothered to actually understand learning theory. This is why they ‘continue to be committed to linear, push methodologies’, it’s easy to understand and cheep to develop. Vendor just give the market what they want. 2. Teacher/trainer decision makers don't love the web, possibly because they can't control it. 3. There appears to be broad acceptance of the theories of multiple types of intelligence and different learning styles by teacher/trainers, but no interest in learning how the web has evolved to meet those different needs. So you’re saying they hate the web and still don't get it after all these years. In my experience the real reason they hate it is fear; it shows them up to be lazy, sloppy and in the worst cases bad at their jobs. The smart and innovative teachers etc love the web because it is a great tool, full of opportunities and it can be used to work around many of the problems of more traditional media. And now on to a small rant about Flash. I’m with others here – basically I’m perplexed by the implication that Flash is some how cornerstone of good eLearning, esp since so much of it is so bad. And here’s the problem and I’m going to make some gross simplification to illustrate my point. Flash is prominently a tool for supporting interaction with certain types of content. It does not enable a whole bunch of other activities that could (should) be included in supporting learning activity, such a peer discussion, collaboration, testing and application of knowledge etc. So while eLearning is predominately seen as Flash then eLearning is should not be viewed as a sound approach to learning. The accessibility issue is a great summary of the problem with Flash; it can be accessible but because it is often done badly it generally isn’t. So a good tool often badly used. And this is the reasons I have a problem with Flash... Andrew http://webgovernanceproblems.blogspot.com/ _ Cut through the jargon: find a PC for your needs. http://clk.atdmt.com/UKM/go/130777504/direct/01/ *** List Guidelines: http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm Unsubscribe: http://webstandardsgroup.org/join/unsubscribe.cfm Help: memberh...@webstandardsgroup.org ***
Re: # Re: [WSG] Beta Testers Needed for BCAT
Having worked as both a teacher in higher ed, and in a support role for teachers in higher ed, I have to agree 100% with Andrew. Flash is the devil you know. Teachers use it so they don't have to learn something new. It amazes me how many people still get away with making flash sites, and burning it to a CD, and calling it education. For so many people, just putting an e (can I buy a vowel?) on the start of something still makes it *very* exciting. On Wed, Jan 14, 2009 at 12:14 PM, Andrew R a_rem...@hotmail.com wrote: A question was asked early in this thread about what are the benefits of using Flash? There's been no answer to that question. I was hoping to learn some answers because I've been confused about why it's become so widely used in eLearning. I think I see several factors but I also think I'm still missing part of the puzzle. Christie Barh – to express my frustration about this general topic. I also agree with most of what you're saying. My first paid web work was developing online learning products in the days before the term eLearning existed (showing my age here). From what you are saying it sounds like the scene has changed little over the last ten years. So from my observation the tide is not turning the whole scene has been riddled with problems since the term got 'eLearning' gained buzz word compliant status. So I have couple of slightly different takes on what you're saying: 1. Teachers/trainers continue to be committed to linear, push methodologies. Plenty of teachers, trainers, training providers, universities, TAFEs, schools, HR areas, etc are essentially lazy and can't be bothered to actually understand learning theory. This is why they 'continue to be committed to linear, push methodologies', it's easy to understand and cheep to develop. Vendor just give the market what they want. 2. Teacher/trainer decision makers don't love the web, possibly because they can't control it. 3. There appears to be broad acceptance of the theories of multiple types of intelligence and different learning styles by teacher/trainers, but no interest in learning how the web has evolved to meet those different needs. So you're saying they hate the web and still don't get it after all these years. In my experience the real reason they hate it is fear; it shows them up to be lazy, sloppy and in the worst cases bad at their jobs. The smart and innovative teachers etc love the web because it is a great tool, full of opportunities and it can be used to work around many of the problems of more traditional media. And now on to a small rant about Flash. I'm with others here – basically I'm perplexed by the implication that Flash is some how cornerstone of good eLearning, esp since so much of it is so bad. And here's the problem and I'm going to make some gross simplification to illustrate my point. Flash is prominently a tool for supporting interaction with certain types of content. It does not enable a whole bunch of other activities that could (should) be included in supporting learning activity, such a peer discussion, collaboration, testing and application of knowledge etc. So while eLearning is predominately seen as Flash then eLearning is should not be viewed as a sound approach to learning. The accessibility issue is a great summary of the problem with Flash; it can be accessible but because it is often done badly it generally isn't. So a good tool often badly used. And this is the reasons I have a problem with Flash... Andrew http://webgovernanceproblems.blogspot.com/ See all the ways you can stay connected to friends and family *** List Guidelines: http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm Unsubscribe: http://webstandardsgroup.org/join/unsubscribe.cfm Help: memberh...@webstandardsgroup.org *** *** List Guidelines: http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm Unsubscribe: http://webstandardsgroup.org/join/unsubscribe.cfm Help: memberh...@webstandardsgroup.org ***
Re: # Re: [WSG] Beta Testers Needed for BCAT
Andrew R wrote: ,... and I’m going to make some gross simplification to illustrate my point. Apparently. Flash is prominently a tool for supporting interaction with certain types of content. It does not enable a whole bunch of other activities that could (should) be included in supporting learning activity, such a peer discussion, collaboration, testing and application of knowledge etc. Absolute, utter nonsense. Flash is a platform. Have you ever developed -- or even used -- an application built in Flex, or OpenLaszlo? Perfectly simple to do any of the above, with the advantage of easy integration with video and other rich content. -- Hassan Schroeder - has...@webtuitive.com Webtuitive Design === (+1) 408-621-3445 === http://webtuitive.com dream. code. *** List Guidelines: http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm Unsubscribe: http://webstandardsgroup.org/join/unsubscribe.cfm Help: memberh...@webstandardsgroup.org ***
RE: # Re: [WSG] Beta Testers Needed for BCAT
From: Hassan Schroeder Have you ever developed -- or even used -- an application built in Flex, or OpenLaszlo? Perfectly simple to do any of the above, with the advantage of easy integration with video and other rich content. [CM] Yes, I've tried Flex and abandoned the effort. It didn't give me any additional benefits to offset the effort and it greatly reduced the ability to index and organize content to make it searchable, findable. About the only benefit I've found to Flash is in the use of video. But I only use video to augment the primary content, not contain primary content. There's no benefit in having true interactive methods such as discussion forums or wikis or blogs in Flash. Yes, taxonomies and keywords can be assigned but the content remains locked away. Plus, I still haven't seen any postings explaining the benefits of taking accessible text and graphics, then going through the effort of creating Flash files from them, then going through the effort of making Flash accessible. Plus, there's the maintenance issue. Simple example I always use is what if you had to change a corporate logo in every Flash file? To do that with a dynamic database approach you change the file once and that's it. To change it in every Flash file, you have to find the source, if you can, then change each file and rerun it. Or, even more fun, try to change something like a product image where you don't know which Flash files referenced which version of which product image when they were created. Christie Mason *** List Guidelines: http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm Unsubscribe: http://webstandardsgroup.org/join/unsubscribe.cfm Help: memberh...@webstandardsgroup.org ***
Re: # Re: [WSG] Beta Testers Needed for BCAT
Christie Mason wrote: Yes, I've tried Flex and abandoned the effort. ... Plus, there's the maintenance issue. Simple example I always use is what if you had to change a corporate logo in every Flash file? To do that with a dynamic database approach you change the file once and that's it. To change it in every Flash file... .. you do exactly the same thing, because it's not in every Flash file at all. Yes, you obviously didn't get very far with Flex -- so, why are you arguing the (de)merits of a technology you don't understand? -- Hassan Schroeder - has...@webtuitive.com Webtuitive Design === (+1) 408-621-3445 === http://webtuitive.com dream. code. *** List Guidelines: http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm Unsubscribe: http://webstandardsgroup.org/join/unsubscribe.cfm Help: memberh...@webstandardsgroup.org ***
RE: # Re: [WSG] Beta Testers Needed for BCAT
Quote: The fact is that many educators have found that they can use Flash to teach their students effectively. I think you (and those teachers that you refer to) are mistaking an effective lesson, for effective teaching.* Also, I think you mis-understand where the problem lies. Because of the way that Flash works, almost all of it is inaccessible to assistive technology. Adobe could do a better job, the makers of assistive technology could do a better job, but there is very little that the man in the middle can do, other than restricting the scope of Flash to things that could be better done with HTML etc. So from that perspective, any body that pushes Flash as a general purpose medium is doing a disservice to the community. --- * It may be easier to teach people to use Flash to get a particular result, but at the end of the day they have not learned what they need to know, which is that Flash is Evil. Regards, Mike Mike Brockington Web Development Specialist www.calcResult.com www.stephanieBlakey.me.uk www.edinburgh.gov.uk This message does not reflect the opinions of any entity other than the author alone. *** List Guidelines: http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm Unsubscribe: http://webstandardsgroup.org/join/unsubscribe.cfm Help: memberh...@webstandardsgroup.org ***
RE: # Re: [WSG] Beta Testers Needed for BCAT
A question was asked early in this thread about what are the benefits of using Flash? There's been no answer to that question. I was hoping to learn some answers because I've been confused about why it's become so widely used in eLearning.I think I see several factors but I also think I'm still missing part of the puzzle. 1. Teachers/trainers continue to be committed to linear, push methodologies. That's the way they were forced to learn, enjoyed learning, so it must be the right way. Books, PPT, films, etc are all linear displays of tightly controlled, tightly packaged content.Flash is the most similar to that type of content. It's controlled, linear and has a beginning, middle and end. Vendors saw this preference and developed their apps accordingly. Soon the only apps that were available to create eLearning were all Flash based. It then became a self-expanding cycle of teacher/trainers seeing Flash being used everywhere, which caused them to think that was the right way to do eLearning, which caused more vendors to make more apps that only delivered Flash based content. Using those apps is, at least initially, easier than actually learning about the web so the cycle continues. 2. Teacher/trainer decision makers don't love the web, possibly because they can't control it. The web doesn't force you to begin at page 1, chapter 1. You can begin anywhere and then move back to simpler content, go sideways, or delve to the point where you know more than the teacher/trainer. You can learn from people that are not the teacher/trainer. You don't have to learn in lock step with others, you can form and reform groups that match your interests and learning level. 3. There appears to be broad acceptance of the theories of multiple types of intelligence and different learning styles by teacher/trainers, but no interest in learning how the web has evolved to meet those different needs. The web is a continuously evolving experiment in supporting different learning preferences. When the first web sites based solely on Flash were offered, they failed and the web turned towards exploring other content formats and ways of organizing content. Useful content that is findable, refindable and easy to use succeeds. That doesn't describe content that has been buried in Flash. I have hope that the tide is turning. Teachers/trainers have experienced the difficulties in creating and maintaining their content in Flash (just try changing one image used in multiple Flash files and the difficulties become clear) the web generation is beginning to pierce/influence decision making levels, students/employees that love the web push to learn from formal resources the way they informally learn from the web, plus content changes in ever decreasing time cycles which leaves little time to build and rebuild Flash delivered content. Christie Mason *** List Guidelines: http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm Unsubscribe: http://webstandardsgroup.org/join/unsubscribe.cfm Help: memberh...@webstandardsgroup.org ***
Re: # Re: [WSG] Beta Testers Needed for BCAT
On 11/01/2009, at 4:08 PM, James Ducker wrote: Ultimately teachers should aim to teach the skills that are required of students entering the industry. The TAFE students I tutor in Sydney are being taught XHTML, XML, CSS table-free layouts, and so on, so not a bad start. The JavaScript courses look like they could use some improvement (see below). I think the biggest shortcoming though is that students are being taught the skills with no context, i.e. they are not taught how to further perpetuate their skills, which is an important shortcoming in an industry that evolves so rapidly. On a side note, my personal opinion on web media courses focusing on rich web content is that they should still entail the bare basics of HTML, XHTML, and CSS, with a toe-dip into JavaScript. These technologies are so fundamental to the web, and given their role as standards they should be part of any web-related courses. One of the most consistent problems I encounter when tutoring students is that a toe-dip into JavaScript simply doesn't work. JS is a fully-fledged OO scripting language, and as such in order to teach it properly a grassroots introduction to OO concepts is necessary. The course seems to have improved in the last year or so, in that they are teaching more current applications of JS, but that's about it. Web development courses should definitely include JS, but for the media-rich courses, such as the new media arts design courses that dabble in the web as a presentation medium, I think the bare basics of JS should suffice—sorry; that’s what I meant. (: —Pascal - James On Sat, Jan 10, 2009 at 4:11 PM, Simon Pascal Klein kle...@klepas.org wrote: On 10/01/2009, at 6:50 AM, Matt Morgan-May wrote: Hi, Excuse me for jumping in here, especially (in this case) as a Flash partisan. But I fail to see how this kind of project can be anything other than a good thing overall. What I don't understand is why people are instantly critical of projects that are actually attempting to increase access to new technology. I've heard a constant drumbeat of don't use Flash: it's inaccessible in the years I've been involved in the field. But if we don't have people pushing that envelope, doesn't that make that statement self-fulfilling prophecy? There are lots of us out there working on improving the accessibility of both existing and future content authored in Flash. There are many arguments to be made for HTML -- I made loads of them while working for W3C, all of which I would stand by today -- but it is not all things to all people. The fact is that many educators have found that they can use Flash to teach their students effectively. I'm not an educator by profession, but my wife is, and she prefers Flash over HTML/CSS/JS to develop her courseware. If you were to tell her she's wrong, especially before seeing what kind of work she does, I think you'd probably find yourself dodging a couple shelves' worth of education texts. Telling a professional their tools are wrong is not the most endearing of approaches. In my opinion, the best one can do is to learn what they're doing, and offer ways to make that output more efficient, more inclusive, and easier to produce. Teachers aren't usually web developers, and we shouldn't want them to be. So I'm all for companies taking on the technical problems so teachers can be teachers, and so on. Ultimately teachers should aim to teach the skills that are required of students entering the industry. It's not uncommon that many secondary and tertiary IT and web media courses are grossly outdated. From my experience this is mostly attributed to the teacher's education in the field which they received when they did their tertiary education in order to teach, and have since not remained up to date with new developments and sadly even standards. Money and a requirement to regularly attend courses to keep educators up to date help in this regard but nothing beats personal interest—the high school IT teacher that in their own time is actively involved in his or her field will be more likely to teach his students about the latest relevant and exciting bleeding edge technologies. On a side note, my personal opinion on web media courses focusing on rich web content is that they should still entail the bare basics of HTML, XHTML, and CSS, with a toe-dip into JavaScript. These technologies are so fundamental to the web, and given their role as standards they should be part of any web-related courses. Just my 2¢. Thanks for raising this topic. (: —Pascal Thanks, M Accessibility Engineer, Adobe Christie Mason said: Exactly right. I've sadly watched Flash take over eLearning and still haven't figured out the attraction, except that it offers the control of PPT while appearing to be rich.There's only a very few types of web sites that still use Flash for
Re: # Re: [WSG] Beta Testers Needed for BCAT
Ultimately teachers should aim to teach the skills that are required of students entering the industry. The TAFE students I tutor in Sydney are being taught XHTML, XML, CSS table-free layouts, and so on, so not a bad start. The JavaScript courses look like they could use some improvement (see below). I think the biggest shortcoming though is that students are being taught the skills with no context, i.e. they are not taught how to further perpetuate their skills, which is an important shortcoming in an industry that evolves so rapidly. On a side note, my personal opinion on web media courses focusing on rich web content is that they should still entail the bare basics of HTML, XHTML, and CSS, with a toe-dip into JavaScript. These technologies are so fundamental to the web, and given their role as standards they should be part of any web-related courses. One of the most consistent problems I encounter when tutoring students is that a toe-dip into JavaScript simply doesn't work. JS is a fully-fledged OO scripting language, and as such in order to teach it properly a grassroots introduction to OO concepts is necessary. The course seems to have improved in the last year or so, in that they are teaching more current applications of JS, but that's about it. - James On Sat, Jan 10, 2009 at 4:11 PM, Simon Pascal Klein kle...@klepas.orgwrote: On 10/01/2009, at 6:50 AM, Matt Morgan-May wrote: Hi, Excuse me for jumping in here, especially (in this case) as a Flash partisan. But I fail to see how this kind of project can be anything other than a good thing overall. What I don't understand is why people are instantly critical of projects that are actually attempting to increase access to new technology. I've heard a constant drumbeat of don't use Flash: it's inaccessible in the years I've been involved in the field. But if we don't have people pushing that envelope, doesn't that make that statement self-fulfilling prophecy? There are lots of us out there working on improving the accessibility of both existing and future content authored in Flash. There are many arguments to be made for HTML -- I made loads of them while working for W3C, all of which I would stand by today -- but it is not all things to all people. The fact is that many educators have found that they can use Flash to teach their students effectively. I'm not an educator by profession, but my wife is, and she prefers Flash over HTML/CSS/JS to develop her courseware. If you were to tell her she's wrong, especially before seeing what kind of work she does, I think you'd probably find yourself dodging a couple shelves' worth of education texts. Telling a professional their tools are wrong is not the most endearing of approaches. In my opinion, the best one can do is to learn what they're doing, and offer ways to make that output more efficient, more inclusive, and easier to produce. Teachers aren't usually web developers, and we shouldn't want them to be. So I'm all for companies taking on the technical problems so teachers can be teachers, and so on. Ultimately teachers should aim to teach the skills that are required of students entering the industry. It's not uncommon that many secondary and tertiary IT and web media courses are grossly outdated. From my experience this is mostly attributed to the teacher's education in the field which they received when they did their tertiary education in order to teach, and have since not remained up to date with new developments and sadly even standards. Money and a requirement to regularly attend courses to keep educators up to date help in this regard but nothing beats personal interest—the high school IT teacher that in their own time is actively involved in his or her field will be more likely to teach his students about the latest relevant and exciting bleeding edge technologies. On a side note, my personal opinion on web media courses focusing on rich web content is that they should still entail the bare basics of HTML, XHTML, and CSS, with a toe-dip into JavaScript. These technologies are so fundamental to the web, and given their role as standards they should be part of any web-related courses. Just my 2¢. Thanks for raising this topic. (: —Pascal Thanks, M Accessibility Engineer, Adobe Christie Mason said: Exactly right. I've sadly watched Flash take over eLearning and still haven't figured out the attraction, except that it offers the control of PPT while appearing to be rich.There's only a very few types of web sites that still use Flash for delivering primary content - media sites, those that focus more on look at me instead of being a resource to their site guests, and eLearning. Since, supposedly, eLearning is about offering web based resources for learning it just doesn't make sense to me that it has ignored all the ways the web has supported, continues to support, learning w/o using Flash.
# Re: [WSG] Beta Testers Needed for BCAT
Hi, Excuse me for jumping in here, especially (in this case) as a Flash partisan. But I fail to see how this kind of project can be anything other than a good thing overall. What I don't understand is why people are instantly critical of projects that are actually attempting to increase access to new technology. I've heard a constant drumbeat of don't use Flash: it's inaccessible in the years I've been involved in the field. But if we don't have people pushing that envelope, doesn't that make that statement self-fulfilling prophecy? There are lots of us out there working on improving the accessibility of both existing and future content authored in Flash. There are many arguments to be made for HTML -- I made loads of them while working for W3C, all of which I would stand by today -- but it is not all things to all people. The fact is that many educators have found that they can use Flash to teach their students effectively. I'm not an educator by profession, but my wife is, and she prefers Flash over HTML/CSS/JS to develop her courseware. If you were to tell her she's wrong, especially before seeing what kind of work she does, I think you'd probably find yourself dodging a couple shelves' worth of education texts. Telling a professional their tools are wrong is not the most endearing of approaches. In my opinion, the best one can do is to learn what they're doing, and offer ways to make that output more efficient, more inclusive, and easier to produce. Teachers aren't usually web developers, and we shouldn't want them to be. So I'm all for companies taking on the technical problems so teachers can be teachers, and so on. Thanks, M Accessibility Engineer, Adobe Christie Mason said: Exactly right. I've sadly watched Flash take over eLearning and still haven't figured out the attraction, except that it offers the control of PPT while appearing to be rich.There's only a very few types of web sites that still use Flash for delivering primary content - media sites, those that focus more on look at me instead of being a resource to their site guests, and eLearning. Since, supposedly, eLearning is about offering web based resources for learning it just doesn't make sense to me that it has ignored all the ways the web has supported, continues to support, learning w/o using Flash. Flash on the web is like cooking with garlic. A little adds depth, a lot is inedible. *** List Guidelines: http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm Unsubscribe: http://webstandardsgroup.org/join/unsubscribe.cfm Help: memberh...@webstandardsgroup.org ***
RE: # Re: [WSG] Beta Testers Needed for BCAT
Agreed! -Original Message- From: li...@webstandardsgroup.org [mailto:li...@webstandardsgroup.org] On Behalf Of Matt Morgan-May Sent: Friday, January 09, 2009 2:50 PM To: wsg@webstandardsgroup.org Subject: # Re: [WSG] Beta Testers Needed for BCAT Hi, Excuse me for jumping in here, especially (in this case) as a Flash partisan. But I fail to see how this kind of project can be anything other than a good thing overall. What I don't understand is why people are instantly critical of projects that are actually attempting to increase access to new technology. I've heard a constant drumbeat of don't use Flash: it's inaccessible in the years I've been involved in the field. But if we don't have people pushing that envelope, doesn't that make that statement self-fulfilling prophecy? There are lots of us out there working on improving the accessibility of both existing and future content authored in Flash. There are many arguments to be made for HTML -- I made loads of them while working for W3C, all of which I would stand by today -- but it is not all things to all people. The fact is that many educators have found that they can use Flash to teach their students effectively. I'm not an educator by profession, but my wife is, and she prefers Flash over HTML/CSS/JS to develop her courseware. If you were to tell her she's wrong, especially before seeing what kind of work she does, I think you'd probably find yourself dodging a couple shelves' worth of education texts. Telling a professional their tools are wrong is not the most endearing of approaches. In my opinion, the best one can do is to learn what they're doing, and offer ways to make that output more efficient, more inclusive, and easier to produce. Teachers aren't usually web developers, and we shouldn't want them to be. So I'm all for companies taking on the technical problems so teachers can be teachers, and so on. Thanks, M Accessibility Engineer, Adobe Christie Mason said: Exactly right. I've sadly watched Flash take over eLearning and still haven't figured out the attraction, except that it offers the control of PPT while appearing to be rich.There's only a very few types of web sites that still use Flash for delivering primary content - media sites, those that focus more on look at me instead of being a resource to their site guests, and eLearning. Since, supposedly, eLearning is about offering web based resources for learning it just doesn't make sense to me that it has ignored all the ways the web has supported, continues to support, learning w/o using Flash. Flash on the web is like cooking with garlic. A little adds depth, a lot is inedible. *** List Guidelines: http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm Unsubscribe: http://webstandardsgroup.org/join/unsubscribe.cfm Help: memberh...@webstandardsgroup.org *** *** List Guidelines: http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm Unsubscribe: http://webstandardsgroup.org/join/unsubscribe.cfm Help: memberh...@webstandardsgroup.org ***
Re: # Re: [WSG] Beta Testers Needed for BCAT
On 10/01/2009, at 6:50 AM, Matt Morgan-May wrote: Hi, Excuse me for jumping in here, especially (in this case) as a Flash partisan. But I fail to see how this kind of project can be anything other than a good thing overall. What I don't understand is why people are instantly critical of projects that are actually attempting to increase access to new technology. I've heard a constant drumbeat of don't use Flash: it's inaccessible in the years I've been involved in the field. But if we don't have people pushing that envelope, doesn't that make that statement self-fulfilling prophecy? There are lots of us out there working on improving the accessibility of both existing and future content authored in Flash. There are many arguments to be made for HTML -- I made loads of them while working for W3C, all of which I would stand by today -- but it is not all things to all people. The fact is that many educators have found that they can use Flash to teach their students effectively. I'm not an educator by profession, but my wife is, and she prefers Flash over HTML/CSS/JS to develop her courseware. If you were to tell her she's wrong, especially before seeing what kind of work she does, I think you'd probably find yourself dodging a couple shelves' worth of education texts. Telling a professional their tools are wrong is not the most endearing of approaches. In my opinion, the best one can do is to learn what they're doing, and offer ways to make that output more efficient, more inclusive, and easier to produce. Teachers aren't usually web developers, and we shouldn't want them to be. So I'm all for companies taking on the technical problems so teachers can be teachers, and so on. Ultimately teachers should aim to teach the skills that are required of students entering the industry. It’s not uncommon that many secondary and tertiary IT and web media courses are grossly outdated. From my experience this is mostly attributed to the teacher’s education in the field which they received when they did their tertiary education in order to teach, and have since not remained up to date with new developments and sadly even standards. Money and a requirement to regularly attend courses to keep educators up to date help in this regard but nothing beats personal interest—the high school IT teacher that in their own time is actively involved in his or her field will be more likely to teach his students about the latest relevant and exciting bleeding edge technologies. On a side note, my personal opinion on web media courses focusing on rich web content is that they should still entail the bare basics of HTML, XHTML, and CSS, with a toe-dip into JavaScript. These technologies are so fundamental to the web, and given their role as standards they should be part of any web-related courses. Just my 2¢. Thanks for raising this topic. (: —Pascal Thanks, M Accessibility Engineer, Adobe Christie Mason said: Exactly right. I've sadly watched Flash take over eLearning and still haven't figured out the attraction, except that it offers the control of PPT while appearing to be rich.There's only a very few types of web sites that still use Flash for delivering primary content - media sites, those that focus more on look at me instead of being a resource to their site guests, and eLearning. Since, supposedly, eLearning is about offering web based resources for learning it just doesn't make sense to me that it has ignored all the ways the web has supported, continues to support, learning w/o using Flash. Flash on the web is like cooking with garlic. A little adds depth, a lot is inedible. *** List Guidelines: http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm Unsubscribe: http://webstandardsgroup.org/join/unsubscribe.cfm Help: memberh...@webstandardsgroup.org *** --- Simon Pascal Klein Concept designer (w) http://klepas.org (e) kle...@klepas.org *** List Guidelines: http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm Unsubscribe: http://webstandardsgroup.org/join/unsubscribe.cfm Help: memberh...@webstandardsgroup.org ***
RE: [WSG] Beta Testers Needed for BCAT
I think you may have missed the point of the earlier question - What can flash bring to the learning environment that cannot be done with HTML, CSS and JavaScript? Regards, Mike PS: Please print and keep this email, as all paper these days comes from managed forests, and therefore more trees will be planted as a result, which sequester more CO2 than mature trees. From: li...@webstandardsgroup.org [mailto:li...@webstandardsgroup.org] On Behalf Of Priti Rohra Sent: 08 January 2009 06:44 To: wsg@webstandardsgroup.org Subject: Re: [WSG] Beta Testers Needed for BCAT Hi Christie, Flash is used extensively for creating E-learning courses and adding accessibility to Flash courses enhances the learning experience for students with special needs, provides authors and students with wider choices for creating and accessing E-learning courses etc. In addition, Flash helps to explain the complex concepts easily to students with learning and cognitive impairments, especially those having reading problems and those who find difficulties in understanding complex concepts. Thus Flash can enrich the learning experience for all students and Accessible Flash can help to wards Inclusive Education. Thanks Regards, Priti Rohra Accessibility Tester Net Systems Informatics (India) Pvt. Ltd. Web: www.n-syst.com|www.barrierbreak.com Blog: www.barrierbreak.com/blog Please don't print this email unless you really need to. This will preserve trees on our planet. *** List Guidelines: http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm Unsubscribe: http://webstandardsgroup.org/join/unsubscribe.cfm Help: memberh...@webstandardsgroup.org ***
RE: [WSG] Beta Testers Needed for BCAT
Exactly right. I've sadly watched Flash take over eLearning and still haven't figured out the attraction, except that it offers the control of PPT while appearing to be rich.There's only a very few types of web sites that still use Flash for delivering primary content - media sites, those that focus more on look at me instead of being a resource to their site guests, and eLearning. Since, supposedly, eLearning is about offering web based resources for learning it just doesn't make sense to me that it has ignored all the ways the web has supported, continues to support, learning w/o using Flash. Flash on the web is like cooking with garlic. A little adds depth, a lot is inedible. Christie -Original Message- From: li...@webstandardsgroup.org [mailto:li...@webstandardsgroup.org]on Behalf Of michael.brocking...@bt.com Sent: Thursday, January 08, 2009 6:45 AM To: wsg@webstandardsgroup.org Subject: RE: [WSG] Beta Testers Needed for BCAT I think you may have missed the point of the earlier question - What can flash bring to the learning environment that cannot be done with HTML, CSS and JavaScript? Regards, Mike PS: Please print and keep this email, as all paper these days comes from managed forests, and therefore more trees will be planted as a result, which sequester more CO2 than mature trees. From: li...@webstandardsgroup.org [mailto:li...@webstandardsgroup.org] On Behalf Of Priti Rohra Sent: 08 January 2009 06:44 To: wsg@webstandardsgroup.org Subject: Re: [WSG] Beta Testers Needed for BCAT Hi Christie, Flash is used extensively for creating E-learning courses and adding accessibility to Flash courses enhances the learning experience for students with special needs, provides authors and students with wider choices for creating and accessing E-learning courses etc. In addition, Flash helps to explain the complex concepts easily to students with learning and cognitive impairments, especially those having reading problems and those who find difficulties in understanding complex concepts. Thus Flash can enrich the learning experience for all students and Accessible Flash can help to wards Inclusive Education. Thanks Regards, Priti Rohra Accessibility Tester Net Systems Informatics (India) Pvt. Ltd. Web: www.n-syst.com|www.barrierbreak.com Blog: www.barrierbreak.com/blog Please don't print this email unless you really need to. This will preserve trees on our planet. *** List Guidelines: http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm Unsubscribe: http://webstandardsgroup.org/join/unsubscribe.cfm Help: memberh...@webstandardsgroup.org *** *** List Guidelines: http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm Unsubscribe: http://webstandardsgroup.org/join/unsubscribe.cfm Help: memberh...@webstandardsgroup.org ***
RE: [WSG] Beta Testers Needed for BCAT
Wouldn't it have been easier to manage and more appropriate towards being welcoming to those using assistive technologies to NOT use Flash? Yes, Flash can be MADE to be accessible but what benefits does its use offer to justify all the things that must be done to make it accessible? Why not use a standard CMS approach, apply web standards, and link in alternate media? Then the text can be made larger and even the size of graphics, such as icons, can be increased with standard browser settings. Christie Mason *** List Guidelines: http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm Unsubscribe: http://webstandardsgroup.org/join/unsubscribe.cfm Help: memberh...@webstandardsgroup.org ***
Re: [WSG] Beta Testers Needed for BCAT
Hi Christie, Flash is used extensively for creating E-learning courses and adding accessibility to Flash courses enhances the learning experience for students with special needs, provides authors and students with wider choices for creating and accessing E-learning courses etc. In addition, Flash helps to explain the complex concepts easily to students with learning and cognitive impairments, especially those having reading problems and those who find difficulties in understanding complex concepts. Thus Flash can enrich the learning experience for all students and Accessible Flash can help to wards Inclusive Education. Thanks Regards, Priti Rohra Accessibility Tester Net Systems Informatics (India) Pvt. Ltd. Web: www.n-syst.com|www.barrierbreak.com Blog: www.barrierbreak.com/blog Please don't print this email unless you really need to. This will preserve trees on our planet. - Original Message - From: Christie Mason To: wsg@webstandardsgroup.org Sent: Wednesday, January 07, 2009 7:15 PM Subject: RE: [WSG] Beta Testers Needed for BCAT Wouldn't it have been easier to manage and more appropriate towards being welcoming to those using assistive technologies to NOT use Flash? Yes, Flash can be MADE to be accessible but what benefits does its use offer to justify all the things that must be done to make it accessible? Why not use a standard CMS approach, apply web standards, and link in alternate media? Then the text can be made larger and even the size of graphics, such as icons, can be increased with standard browser settings. Christie Mason *** List Guidelines: http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm Unsubscribe: http://webstandardsgroup.org/join/unsubscribe.cfm Help: memberh...@webstandardsgroup.org *** *** List Guidelines: http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm Unsubscribe: http://webstandardsgroup.org/join/unsubscribe.cfm Help: memberh...@webstandardsgroup.org ***
