RE: # Re: [WSG] Beta Testers Needed for BCAT

2009-01-14 Thread Christie Mason
-Original Message-
From:f Hassan Schroeder

Christie Mason wrote:

 Yes, I've tried Flex and abandoned the effort.

 ...  Plus, there's the maintenance issue.  Simple example I always
 use is what if you had to change a corporate logo in every Flash file?  To
 do that with a dynamic database approach you change the file once and
that's
 it.  To change it in every Flash file...

HS .. you do exactly the same thing, because it's not in every Flash
file at all.

CM - I wasn't talking about Flex.  I was referring to Flash.  I can see that
I wasn't clear when I changed thoughts.

HS Yes, you obviously didn't get very far with Flex -- so, why are you
arguing the (de)merits of a technology you don't understand?

CM -  Instead of humphing at me, educate me and by extension everyone else.
What does Flex do better, faster, cheaper than a text based database with
links to graphics, video/Flash, etc using PHP, ASP (scripts) or ASP.NET
(framework)?  Plus, I'd be curious as to availability of the Flex server in
remote hosts. I haven't seen any offer it, is it still so pricey(?), but I
also haven't been looking for it.  As a user of Cold Fusion many years ago
I'd also be interested in learning more about its current market share.  How
is AIR doing?  At first AIR was intriguing but then I haven't met any need
that it fulfilled.

Hassan, I also have a theory that I'd like to test with you.  Do you use
Macs as your primary computer or PC?  I think the very visual are drawn
towards using Macs and Flash.  It's fine to be visually oriented, I'm not
using it as a judgment call because I think it's just as difficult for
highly visual people to remember that not everyone shares their preference
as it is for those that aren't highly visual to remember to use graphics for
those that are highly visual.

I'm not a highly visual person, I even prefer reading data to being given a
graph.  I don't see the value of most rich interface methods because it's
been my experience than when people start focusing on making the
interface/content flash around, then usability is degraded and content
quality is decreased because first the budget bucks go towards make it
sing/dance before taking the time to build a solid structure that easily
creates and maintains useful content.

So back to the original, still unanswered question.  What are the advantages
of using Flash (Flex etal)?

Christie Mason



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Re: # Re: [WSG] Beta Testers Needed for BCAT

2009-01-14 Thread Brett Patterson
I hope I can throw my 2 cents in. Not trying to argue, but to TRY and answer
some questions.

 A question was asked early in this thread about what are the benefits of
 using Flash? There's been no answer to that question.  I was hoping to
 learn
 some answers because I've been confused about why it's become so widely
 used
 in eLearning.


Okay, first this part of the answer. There are different types of ways that
people learn. I suggest reading:

http://www.worldwidelearn.com/education-articles/how-do-you-learn.htm

or

http://www.google.com/search?q=types+of+learningsourceid=navclient-ffie=UTF-8rlz=1B3GGGL_enUS301US303

the above is a quick search.

But in other ways, there have been found different ways besides the three
listed in the first link. Interaction. Here is an interaction information
link, it is in pdf:

http://www.sloan-c.org/publications/books/interactions.pdf

and to search:

http://www.google.com/search?q=interaction+learningsourceid=navclient-ffie=UTF-8rlz=1B3GGGL_enUS301US303

there are a lot of other different, informative links on that search.

Interaction is one the greatest styles of learning there is, in my opinion
(don't jump at that, because it is just my opinion, although I must stress
that my opinion mainly depends on the subject being taught). Flash can help
tremendously with interaction, although that is not the only way. An
excellently developed Flash eLearning solution will add a lot of different
types of learning solutions to it. Most do. In an excellently developed
site, you will have links to different portions of the file, where one may
be to read what needs to be read, one may have one spoken to you, and
another may ask for questions and answers. Others, may things where you need
to drag objects to stage or link one side (which may contain a list of
words) to the other (the definitions of those words) (you click the word,
then click the definition to check answer). And yet, even more others, will
contain videos that someone can watch to see something being done, if they
are a visual learner. In these regards, Flash can offer many different
advantages to ALL different styles of learning. But, like the arguments
posted, there is the question of Accessibility. There is no reason that
flash cannot be used on a site. Some have stated that a little can add depth
to a site. Well, my question to those statements, how are you saying your
site is accessible if you do not have an accessible Flash file on it? You
cannot, unless you say it is accessible on only the main parts of the site.
But, that would leave a large part of the disabled out if they cannot see
what is happening.

Flash is a way to do learning online, just like the combination of
HTML/CSS/JS/AJAX, etc. And if instructors do want to use Flash for whatever
reason, then by all means, make accessible Flash. You cannot change all the
teachers in the world, it is impossible, and Flash is here to stay.

Um, I hope that explains it, I noticed when rereading it might not fully
explain, if it doesn't let me know.

BCAT's developers have a serious nerve asking the WSG community to
 provide feedback on a site they've built, but then require that
 a) people compromise their freedom by signing an NDA to even view the
 site, and then add insult to injury by
 b) making the terms of the NDA available only in a non-standard,
 proprietary MS Word DOC format.


On the first part I disagree, they do not. But on the last part, I would
have to agree (the b) part). But, again but, people do not compromise
freedom by being asked to sign an NDA. That is an argument either way
understandably. I can agree that you shouldn't be asked to sign an NDA, but
on the other hand, I can agree that you should. I can agree in the since
that they are protecting their site from being compromised, meaning they
do not want word to slip out on what is being developed yet, since it may or
may not be completed. On the other hand, I cannot agree with that NDA,
because of the b) part, and the fact that you are being asked to look at it,
and it is a waste of time having to read it, agree to it, and then get to
the point of the matter. Both arguments listed.

Simon said, (not trying to get hateful) and I quote:

 Ultimately teachers should aim to teach the skills that are required of
 students entering the industry. It's not uncommon that many secondary and
 tertiary IT and web media courses are grossly outdated. From my experience
 this is mostly attributed to the teacher's education in the field which they
 received when they did their tertiary education in order to teach, and have
 since not remained up to date with new developments and sadly even
 standards. Money and a requirement to regularly attend courses to keep
 educators up to date help in this regard but nothing beats personal
 interest—the high school IT teacher that in their own time is actively
 involved in his or her field will be more likely to teach his students about
 the latest relevant and 

Re: # Re: [WSG] Beta Testers Needed for BCAT

2009-01-14 Thread James Ducker
Hi WSG,

This entire argument is getting a bit much. Nothing on the web is in and of
itself particularly accessible. Accessibility in HTML is a joke unless you
have been taught the right practices. Flash was, is, and will continue to
be, primarily, a tool for delivery of rich, interactive media. To that end
accessibility in flash is almost a moot point, as you're never going to be
able to enable a blind person to watch a video. If the issue is text, you
shouldn't be using Flash, and if you are you should be implementing it in a
manner that allows for graceful degradation. I know I'm glossing the issue,
but bear with me.

 Plenty of teachers, trainers, training providers, universities, TAFEs,
schools, HR areas, etc are essentially lazy and can't be bothered to
actually understand learning theory. This is why they 'continue to be
committed to linear, push methodologies', it's easy to understand and cheep
to develop. Vendor just give the market what they want.

TAFEs and other para-tertiary institutions do this because that is what they
are there to do. Their purpose is to give students the skills necessary to
get a job and then self-perpetuate their skills. My experience of
universities is that they don't do this at all. Even the less technical I.T.
degrees will throw a smorgasbord of programming languages (no one goes to
university to write HTML) and development methodologies at you and let you
figure out which one works best for you. The result of being a good
programmer is that it becomes easy to pick up ActionScript and use it well.
Virtually no one writes good ActionScript.

I've never taught flash to a class, so I won't speculate on its usefulness.
It is in my opinion something that should be taught to I.T. students because
of the ubiquity of Flash on the web.

I think the argument against Flash in eLearning is flawed. It sounds more
like an argument of how Flash is being used in eLearning. The issue doesn't
lie with Flash itself, but with how eLearning software producers are using
it.

 Teacher/trainer decision makers don't love the web, possibly because they
 can't control it.

This is mostly untrue, teachers do love the web. Occasionally you will find
a teacher whose methods are out of date, but most commonly the issues lie
with course curricula.

I have hope that the tide is turning.  Teachers/trainers have experienced
 the difficulties in creating and maintaining their content in Flash (just
 try changing one image used in multiple Flash files and the difficulties
 become clear)


Again, this boils down to being a bad Flash developer. It took me a few
seconds to think of a way to modify an image in multiple Flash files at once
(without interrupting their availability to users either).


 the web generation is beginning to pierce/influence decision
 making levels, students/employees that love the web push to learn from
 formal resources the way they informally learn from the web, plus content
 changes in ever decreasing time cycles which leaves little time to build
 and
 rebuild Flash delivered content.


I am a student. Formal resources are about the best damn thing that
university has provided me. Unfortunately it's (arguably) not fun or cool to
read a programming book cover to cover, so I can see why people complain.
Stop using the term 'love the web'. Lots of people love the web, I'm sure,
but it doesn't mean they have the first clue what's good for it.


The few times I have seen Flash used well and written well it's beautiful.
It's amazing. It's like having sunshine flowing through your vains. So, do
you blame HTML for every poorly coded website? Do you blame Flash for every
bad use of Flash?

Anyway, it seems like this entire argument would be better stated as People
who hate Flash because it doesn't behave in a manner identical to HTML, and
also because it isn't HTML.

- James


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Re: # Re: [WSG] Beta Testers Needed for BCAT

2009-01-14 Thread Hassan Schroeder

Christie Mason wrote:


CM - I wasn't talking about Flex.  I was referring to Flash.  I can see that
I wasn't clear when I changed thoughts.


And again, missing the point: Flash is a *platform* with which you
can do a variety of things. It's not 1998 any more, and Flash is
only about Dancing Hampsters(sic) if *you* want it to be.


CM -  Instead of humphing at me, educate me and by extension everyone else.
What does Flex do better, faster, cheaper than a text based database with
links to graphics, video/Flash, etc 


It's *integrated* with the video, graphics, sound. Let's say you're
teaching bicycle mechanics, and you have a video that demonstrates
replacing a cog in a cassette. As the component is disassembled, you
want to show the name and details of each piece as text to one side,
and maybe warnings/cautions on the other, with a static exploded
view of the assembly above where each component is highlighted as
it's being removed in the video.

You might be able to do that with the JavaScript-ActionScript bridge
and plain HTML but I guarantee it would be a /lot/ clumsier. :-)


Plus, I'd be curious as to availability of the Flex server in
remote hosts. I haven't seen any offer it, is it still so pricey(?)


No idea, check with Adobe. My last Flex project was a couple years
ago, and I'm pretty sure they've changed the licensing since then.

And there's also OpenLaszlo, of course.


Hassan, I also have a theory that I'd like to test with you.  Do you use
Macs as your primary computer or PC?  I think the very visual are drawn
towards using Macs and Flash.  


I don't think it's about me :-)

The point is using the proper tool for the job, and any application
with multimedia aspects is a candidate for a Flash-based solution.


I'm not a highly visual person, I even prefer reading data to being given a
graph.  


I spend most of my time in a text editor or bash, regardless of
what platform I'm using. But that's probably not germane to this
discussion, either.


I don't see the value of most rich interface methods because it's
been my experience than when people start focusing on making the
interface/content flash around


How about focusing on using multimedia to add value, to create a more
effective learning experience, as I hopefully demonstrated above?


FWIW,
--
Hassan Schroeder - has...@webtuitive.com
Webtuitive Design ===  (+1) 408-621-3445   === http://webtuitive.com

  dream.  code.


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Re: # Re: [WSG] Beta Testers Needed for BCAT

2009-01-14 Thread Brett Patterson
THANK YOU!!! I could not agree with you more. And in the same since, I think
we agree with each other.

Congratulations on an argument well-played. And well-thought!!!

--
Brett P.


On Wed, Jan 14, 2009 at 11:05 AM, James Ducker james.duc...@gmail.comwrote:

 Hi WSG,

 This entire argument is getting a bit much. Nothing on the web is in and of
 itself particularly accessible. Accessibility in HTML is a joke unless you
 have been taught the right practices. Flash was, is, and will continue to
 be, primarily, a tool for delivery of rich, interactive media. To that end
 accessibility in flash is almost a moot point, as you're never going to be
 able to enable a blind person to watch a video. If the issue is text, you
 shouldn't be using Flash, and if you are you should be implementing it in a
 manner that allows for graceful degradation. I know I'm glossing the issue,
 but bear with me.

  Plenty of teachers, trainers, training providers, universities, TAFEs,
 schools, HR areas, etc are essentially lazy and can't be bothered to
 actually understand learning theory. This is why they 'continue to be
 committed to linear, push methodologies', it's easy to understand and cheep
 to develop. Vendor just give the market what they want.

 TAFEs and other para-tertiary institutions do this because that is what
 they are there to do. Their purpose is to give students the skills necessary
 to get a job and then self-perpetuate their skills. My experience of
 universities is that they don't do this at all. Even the less technical I.T.
 degrees will throw a smorgasbord of programming languages (no one goes to
 university to write HTML) and development methodologies at you and let you
 figure out which one works best for you. The result of being a good
 programmer is that it becomes easy to pick up ActionScript and use it well.
 Virtually no one writes good ActionScript.

 I've never taught flash to a class, so I won't speculate on its usefulness.
 It is in my opinion something that should be taught to I.T. students because
 of the ubiquity of Flash on the web.

 I think the argument against Flash in eLearning is flawed. It sounds more
 like an argument of how Flash is being used in eLearning. The issue doesn't
 lie with Flash itself, but with how eLearning software producers are using
 it.

  Teacher/trainer decision makers don't love the web, possibly because they
  can't control it.

 This is mostly untrue, teachers do love the web. Occasionally you will find
 a teacher whose methods are out of date, but most commonly the issues lie
 with course curricula.

 I have hope that the tide is turning.  Teachers/trainers have experienced
 the difficulties in creating and maintaining their content in Flash (just
 try changing one image used in multiple Flash files and the difficulties
 become clear)


 Again, this boils down to being a bad Flash developer. It took me a few
 seconds to think of a way to modify an image in multiple Flash files at once
 (without interrupting their availability to users either).


 the web generation is beginning to pierce/influence decision
 making levels, students/employees that love the web push to learn from
 formal resources the way they informally learn from the web, plus content
 changes in ever decreasing time cycles which leaves little time to build
 and
 rebuild Flash delivered content.


 I am a student. Formal resources are about the best damn thing that
 university has provided me. Unfortunately it's (arguably) not fun or cool to
 read a programming book cover to cover, so I can see why people complain.
 Stop using the term 'love the web'. Lots of people love the web, I'm sure,
 but it doesn't mean they have the first clue what's good for it.


 The few times I have seen Flash used well and written well it's beautiful.
 It's amazing. It's like having sunshine flowing through your vains. So, do
 you blame HTML for every poorly coded website? Do you blame Flash for every
 bad use of Flash?

 Anyway, it seems like this entire argument would be better stated as
 People who hate Flash because it doesn't behave in a manner identical to
 HTML, and also because it isn't HTML.

 - James


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Re: # Re: [WSG] Beta Testers Needed for BCAT

2009-01-14 Thread Brett Patterson
Christie, your argument is about the most ridiculous argument there is.
Everything you have stated is SOLELY about you and your personal
preferences. Observe:

I'm not a highly visual person, I even prefer reading data to being given a
 graph.


So what? *NONE OF THIS IS ABOUT YOU!!!* Your personal preference is
irrelevant, as well as mine. Other people may not like reading. They may be
more visual. Focus on everyone, not yourself, and you CANNOT design a web
page if you only focus on yourself and how you may view and read it. It
can't happen. Unless you want people to view only how you viewed it when
designing.

You also state:

 Hassan, I also have a theory that I'd like to test with you.  Do you use
 Macs as your primary computer or PC?  I think the very visual are drawn
 towards using Macs and Flash.


 I don't think it's about me :-)


True, Hassan, it's not about you. Christie, do you think Macs are not PC's?
Because they are. And PC's (Personal Computers, that is what a PC stands
for) is too broad a subject. Clarify!!!

Since you like to read, here is this,
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Personal_computer
it shows the definition and what is included in the subject. Such as Macs
and Windows and Linux-based OS are PC's.

Again using the quote above, you are also Stereotyping. Not all people are
drawn towards Macs and Flash. Some maybe drawn to Linux, Ubuntu, Windows,
etc.

--
Brett P.


On Wed, Jan 14, 2009 at 11:21 AM, Hassan Schroeder has...@webtuitive.comwrote:

 Christie Mason wrote:

  CM - I wasn't talking about Flex.  I was referring to Flash.  I can see
 that
 I wasn't clear when I changed thoughts.


 And again, missing the point: Flash is a *platform* with which you
 can do a variety of things. It's not 1998 any more, and Flash is
 only about Dancing Hampsters(sic) if *you* want it to be.

  CM -  Instead of humphing at me, educate me and by extension everyone
 else.
 What does Flex do better, faster, cheaper than a text based database with
 links to graphics, video/Flash, etc


 It's *integrated* with the video, graphics, sound. Let's say you're
 teaching bicycle mechanics, and you have a video that demonstrates
 replacing a cog in a cassette. As the component is disassembled, you
 want to show the name and details of each piece as text to one side,
 and maybe warnings/cautions on the other, with a static exploded
 view of the assembly above where each component is highlighted as
 it's being removed in the video.

 You might be able to do that with the JavaScript-ActionScript bridge
 and plain HTML but I guarantee it would be a /lot/ clumsier. :-)

  Plus, I'd be curious as to availability of the Flex server in
 remote hosts. I haven't seen any offer it, is it still so pricey(?)


 No idea, check with Adobe. My last Flex project was a couple years
 ago, and I'm pretty sure they've changed the licensing since then.

 And there's also OpenLaszlo, of course.

  Hassan, I also have a theory that I'd like to test with you.  Do you use
 Macs as your primary computer or PC?  I think the very visual are drawn
 towards using Macs and Flash.


 I don't think it's about me :-)

 The point is using the proper tool for the job, and any application
 with multimedia aspects is a candidate for a Flash-based solution.

  I'm not a highly visual person, I even prefer reading data to being given
 a
 graph.


 I spend most of my time in a text editor or bash, regardless of
 what platform I'm using. But that's probably not germane to this
 discussion, either.

  I don't see the value of most rich interface methods because it's
 been my experience than when people start focusing on making the
 interface/content flash around


 How about focusing on using multimedia to add value, to create a more
 effective learning experience, as I hopefully demonstrated above?


 FWIW,
 --
 Hassan Schroeder - has...@webtuitive.com
 Webtuitive Design ===  (+1) 408-621-3445   === http://webtuitive.com

  dream.  code.


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Re: # Re: [WSG] Beta Testers Needed for BCAT

2009-01-14 Thread Brett Patterson
The below was to James Ducker.

--
Brett P.


On Wed, Jan 14, 2009 at 11:23 AM, Brett Patterson 
inspiron.patters...@gmail.com wrote:

 THANK YOU!!! I could not agree with you more. And in the same since, I
 think we agree with each other.

 Congratulations on an argument well-played. And well-thought!!!

 --
 Brett P.


 On Wed, Jan 14, 2009 at 11:05 AM, James Ducker james.duc...@gmail.comwrote:

 Hi WSG,

 This entire argument is getting a bit much. Nothing on the web is in and
 of itself particularly accessible. Accessibility in HTML is a joke unless
 you have been taught the right practices. Flash was, is, and will continue
 to be, primarily, a tool for delivery of rich, interactive media. To that
 end accessibility in flash is almost a moot point, as you're never going to
 be able to enable a blind person to watch a video. If the issue is text, you
 shouldn't be using Flash, and if you are you should be implementing it in a
 manner that allows for graceful degradation. I know I'm glossing the issue,
 but bear with me.

  Plenty of teachers, trainers, training providers, universities, TAFEs,
 schools, HR areas, etc are essentially lazy and can't be bothered to
 actually understand learning theory. This is why they 'continue to be
 committed to linear, push methodologies', it's easy to understand and cheep
 to develop. Vendor just give the market what they want.

 TAFEs and other para-tertiary institutions do this because that is what
 they are there to do. Their purpose is to give students the skills necessary
 to get a job and then self-perpetuate their skills. My experience of
 universities is that they don't do this at all. Even the less technical I.T.
 degrees will throw a smorgasbord of programming languages (no one goes to
 university to write HTML) and development methodologies at you and let you
 figure out which one works best for you. The result of being a good
 programmer is that it becomes easy to pick up ActionScript and use it well.
 Virtually no one writes good ActionScript.

 I've never taught flash to a class, so I won't speculate on its
 usefulness. It is in my opinion something that should be taught to I.T.
 students because of the ubiquity of Flash on the web.

 I think the argument against Flash in eLearning is flawed. It sounds more
 like an argument of how Flash is being used in eLearning. The issue doesn't
 lie with Flash itself, but with how eLearning software producers are using
 it.

  Teacher/trainer decision makers don't love the web, possibly because
 they
  can't control it.

 This is mostly untrue, teachers do love the web. Occasionally you will
 find a teacher whose methods are out of date, but most commonly the issues
 lie with course curricula.

 I have hope that the tide is turning.  Teachers/trainers have experienced
 the difficulties in creating and maintaining their content in Flash (just
 try changing one image used in multiple Flash files and the difficulties
 become clear)


 Again, this boils down to being a bad Flash developer. It took me a few
 seconds to think of a way to modify an image in multiple Flash files at once
 (without interrupting their availability to users either).


 the web generation is beginning to pierce/influence decision
 making levels, students/employees that love the web push to learn from
 formal resources the way they informally learn from the web, plus content
 changes in ever decreasing time cycles which leaves little time to build
 and
 rebuild Flash delivered content.


 I am a student. Formal resources are about the best damn thing that
 university has provided me. Unfortunately it's (arguably) not fun or cool to
 read a programming book cover to cover, so I can see why people complain.
 Stop using the term 'love the web'. Lots of people love the web, I'm sure,
 but it doesn't mean they have the first clue what's good for it.


 The few times I have seen Flash used well and written well it's beautiful.
 It's amazing. It's like having sunshine flowing through your vains. So, do
 you blame HTML for every poorly coded website? Do you blame Flash for every
 bad use of Flash?

 Anyway, it seems like this entire argument would be better stated as
 People who hate Flash because it doesn't behave in a manner identical to
 HTML, and also because it isn't HTML.

 - James


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Re: # Re: [WSG] Beta Testers Needed for BCAT

2009-01-14 Thread Matt Morgan-May
On 1/14/09 5:38 AM, Christie Mason cma...@managersforum.com wrote:
 Plus, I'd be curious as to availability of the Flex server in
 remote hosts. I haven't seen any offer it, is it still so pricey(?), but I
 also haven't been looking for it.

Flex hasn't been sold on a server basis since 1.5, which was released in
2004. Flex 3 was released as an open-source SDK, along with a commercial,
Eclipse-based IDE called Flex Builder (which, btw, is free for educational
users--as is ColdFusion).

-
m



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RE: # Re: [WSG] Beta Testers Needed for BCAT

2009-01-14 Thread Christie Mason
From:  Brett Patterson (BP)

 BP -  Okay, first this part of the answer. There are different types of
ways that people learn. I suggest reading:
http://www.worldwidelearn.com/education-articles/how-do-you-learn.htm

CM - That's a very simplistic theory of how people learn and it's actually a
communication theory that,  maybe because it's really simple, became
accepted as a learning theory.   That link is a simplification of what I
learned as AVK (Auditory, Visual, Kinesthetic) from NLP. I thought AVK was
the answer to all until I reflected on it, taught it, applied it and found
it... fun but useless.  The educational system rewards those that learn
visually so many have adapted to learning visually.  Everyone learns better
by doing/experiencing/feeling so everyone's a Kinesthetic.  Auditory seems
to be the only optional preference, but the cost of meeting auditory
learning preferences is very high.  Also, it seems that offering high
auditory experiences tends to be negatively received by those that don't
have an auditory preference, so it's best as an option.  No one really seems
to know what AVK is based upon.  It seems to me it may be based on what's
usually quoted as Mehrabrian's 7/38/55 communication rule which is in
incomplete interpretation of his findings
http://www.coachteam.no/Documents/MytenOmNonverbalKommunikasjon.pdf
Somewhere this myth got started and it should be ignored.

CM - NLP does offer some clues about writing content for web display, aka
communicating concepts..  You can write so that people can hear the words
singing, feel the punch of an idea, see the interaction of concepts.
What is learning other than communicating, even selling, someone the need to
learn, to change what they know?  Flash s/b used when it increases
communication, not just because it's the only way someone knows how to put
content on the web.  If all you have is a hammer, everything looks like a
nail  http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Golden_hammer

 BP -  or
http://www.google.com/search?q=types+of+learningsourceid=navclient-ffie=UT
F-8rlz=1B3GGGL_enUS301US303

CM - Multiple Intelligence is also another learning theory that seems to
ring true but I've been unable to figure out how to apply all types of
intelligence into organizing and displaying content on the web.

CM - As far as learning theory, I'm a Constructionist.  Very simply that
means that I believe people construct their own learning framework by
seeking out resources that meet their needs.  If what they need isn't
presented in a way that matches their preferences, they'll adapt to whatever
is available, as long as they can find it.  Making content findable seems to
parallel making it accessible.

CM - For more useful learning theories, look at Kolb  (Active
Experimentation, Concrete Experience, Reflective Observation , Abstract
Conceptualization)  http://www.businessballs.com/kolblearningstyles.htm  and
Soloman/Felder/Silverman (Active -- Reflective, Sensing --Intuitive,
Visual -- Verbal, Sequential -- Global)

CM - What I've really learned about all the learning theories and styles,
after more than 20 years of involvement not a quick search,  is that none of
them are practical because people change their learning style based on
environment and what they're trying to learn.  What I've found most useful
is personality/communication styles.  Seems that all the personality style
matrixes, and most learning styles, that  I've seen can be boiled down to
task - social and detail - whole picture preferences.  I can match those
preferences on the web by offering short overviews with opportunities to
drill out to more detail (which c/b video/Flash/audio) and/or offer social
interaction opportunities - like this forum.

BP - Interaction is one the greatest styles of learning there is, in my
opinion...Flash can help tremendously with interaction, although that is not
the only way. An excellently developed Flash eLearning solution will add a
lot of different types of learning solutions to it. Most do. In an
excellently developed site, you will have links to different portions of
the file, where one may be to read what needs to be read, one may have one
spoken to you, and another may ask for questions and answers.

CM - Interaction is more than clicking on a link or moving things around on
a screen.  Those links are easier to develop and manage with HTML, plus
there's still the additional cost of developing/maintaining Flash plus
addt'l costs to make it as accessible as text/graphics.  Yes, Flash can be
used but it should never be the only tool that's used.   If a concept can
ONLY be understood if the learner HAS to SEE it in action then even adding
all the accessibility add ons to Flash won't help.  In addition,  I've found
that need to be rare and certainly no reason to justify putting all content
into Flash.

BP - Flash is a way to do learning online, just like the combination of
HTML/CSS/JS/AJAX, etc. And if instructors do want to use Flash for whatever
reason, then 

RE: # Re: [WSG] Beta Testers Needed for BCAT

2009-01-14 Thread Christie Mason
Brett you are correct, This is a personal theory based on some personal
observations.  Do you use a Mac as your primary development computer?

Christie Mason


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RE: # Re: [WSG] Beta Testers Needed for BCAT

2009-01-14 Thread Christie Mason


-Original Message-
From: Hassan Schroeder
It's *integrated* with the video, graphics, sound. Let's say you're
teaching bicycle mechanics, and you have a video that demonstrates
replacing a cog in a cassette. As the component is disassembled, you
want to show the name and details of each piece as text to one side,
and maybe warnings/cautions on the other, with a static exploded
view of the assembly above where each component is highlighted as
it's being removed in the video.

CM - that sounds useful but MY preference would also be to have a text based
cheat sheet to scan the steps then link out to the multimedia detail.
Start simple, offer the rich option, track how much the rich option is
accessed to determine its usefulness and cost justification.

How about focusing on using multimedia to add value, to create a more
effective learning experience, as I hopefully demonstrated above?

CM - As long as there's a recognition that using multimedia at all times
doesn't always add value,  it's fine with me.

Christie Mason



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Re: # Re: [WSG] Beta Testers Needed for BCAT

2009-01-14 Thread Brett Patterson
Pardon the language, but Hell no. For a number of different reasons. Among
that being, I can't work with the code as good as I can with Microsoft's and
the fact that it costs too much money. Although it is proprietary, I can
recode most of what I need to do (Microsoft's code). To say I disagree with
you, or anyone else for that matter, about Flash not being used by people
properly, would be a lie. Even being used on the Web itself, I would say
that is a lie if I disagree. But, I must at least agree with the people who
are trying to make it accessible. It doesn't matter what we think about it,
it's going to be there regardless, so instead we need to work on
accessibility of ALL things that go on the Web. Having looked at the
solution by BCAT, or whatever it's called, I have noticed some major
improvements, and most importantly, that it cannot only be applied to
eLearning, but other ways of Flash uses as well. This is why I promote it,
now.

And I must say that all teachers/educators, whatever word you wish to use,
do recognize different ways to show content off. Even I know different ways.
Everyone that does use Flash for eLearning, offers different ways to learn
it. But again, like I said, not my opinion about using it that matters, nor
anyone else's. What does matter though, is this, (again to reiterate) it
will be there no matter what, whether we like it or not, so let's work on
the making it accessible together, get it done and be done with it.

True to anyone that says it should be Adobe's problem to fix. I agree. But
they are lazy, so it is up to other people to fix their problem. Okay, so I
really don't want to have to fix it, you don't want to fix it, we don't want
to fix it, but BCAT is stepping up and taking charge and fixing it. Let's
support them, and hope it works. As long as they don't charge. Then it
becomes a-whole-nother story. But beyond that, more power to them.

Christie, we are both Constructionists in the term you defined. But I am
also a Visionary. Plus, I try to help make Tim Berners-Lee's goals possible.
Those that argue the point it should not be made accessible and not put on
the web are saying they don't care about his vision of the WWW. Why do I say
they don't care? Because it's one of either two things, with no other
possibility. These two choices are either: 1) You don't care about Mr.
Berners-Lee's vision or the WWW, for that matter. or 2) Your ignorant,
because you have accepted or don't know that Flash is here to stay.

--
Brett P.


On Wed, Jan 14, 2009 at 2:11 PM, Christie Mason cma...@managersforum.comwrote:

  Brett you are correct, This is a personal theory based on some personal
 observations.  Do you use a Mac as your primary development computer?

 Christie Mason

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Re: # Re: [WSG] Beta Testers Needed for BCAT

2009-01-14 Thread Brett Patterson
Forgot to mention several other things, Christie.


   1. If all you have is a hammer, everything looks like a nail, I am
   still laughing at that.

CM - Interaction is more than clicking on a link or moving things around on
 a screen.  Those links are easier to develop and manage with HTML, plus
 there's still the additional cost of developing/maintaining Flash plus
 addt'l costs to make it as accessible as text/graphics.  Yes, Flash can be
 used but it should never be the only tool that's used.   If a concept can
 ONLY be understood if the learner HAS to SEE it in action then even adding
 all the accessibility add ons to Flash won't help.  In addition,  I've found
 that need to be rare and certainly no reason to justify putting all content
 into Flash.


Sorry I wasn't as clear as I should have been. Those links are not like
using the a tag. They are like lines drawn on a map. Linking (drawing a
line) from one side to the other (one word to its definition), a line, if
you have ever done it, like connect-the-dots.

To the question about this conversation being done in Flash, it very well
could have. With some minor changes, we could have talked with video
conferencing. Kinda hard to do, but it can be done.

--
Brett P.


On Wed, Jan 14, 2009 at 2:46 PM, Brett Patterson 
inspiron.patters...@gmail.com wrote:

 Pardon the language, but Hell no. For a number of different reasons. Among
 that being, I can't work with the code as good as I can with Microsoft's and
 the fact that it costs too much money. Although it is proprietary, I can
 recode most of what I need to do (Microsoft's code). To say I disagree with
 you, or anyone else for that matter, about Flash not being used by people
 properly, would be a lie. Even being used on the Web itself, I would say
 that is a lie if I disagree. But, I must at least agree with the people who
 are trying to make it accessible. It doesn't matter what we think about it,
 it's going to be there regardless, so instead we need to work on
 accessibility of ALL things that go on the Web. Having looked at the
 solution by BCAT, or whatever it's called, I have noticed some major
 improvements, and most importantly, that it cannot only be applied to
 eLearning, but other ways of Flash uses as well. This is why I promote it,
 now.

 And I must say that all teachers/educators, whatever word you wish to use,
 do recognize different ways to show content off. Even I know different ways.
 Everyone that does use Flash for eLearning, offers different ways to learn
 it. But again, like I said, not my opinion about using it that matters, nor
 anyone else's. What does matter though, is this, (again to reiterate) it
 will be there no matter what, whether we like it or not, so let's work on
 the making it accessible together, get it done and be done with it.

 True to anyone that says it should be Adobe's problem to fix. I agree. But
 they are lazy, so it is up to other people to fix their problem. Okay, so I
 really don't want to have to fix it, you don't want to fix it, we don't want
 to fix it, but BCAT is stepping up and taking charge and fixing it. Let's
 support them, and hope it works. As long as they don't charge. Then it
 becomes a-whole-nother story. But beyond that, more power to them.

 Christie, we are both Constructionists in the term you defined. But I am
 also a Visionary. Plus, I try to help make Tim Berners-Lee's goals possible.
 Those that argue the point it should not be made accessible and not put on
 the web are saying they don't care about his vision of the WWW. Why do I say
 they don't care? Because it's one of either two things, with no other
 possibility. These two choices are either: 1) You don't care about Mr.
 Berners-Lee's vision or the WWW, for that matter. or 2) Your ignorant,
 because you have accepted or don't know that Flash is here to stay.

 --
 Brett P.



 On Wed, Jan 14, 2009 at 2:11 PM, Christie Mason 
 cma...@managersforum.comwrote:

  Brett you are correct, This is a personal theory based on some personal
 observations.  Do you use a Mac as your primary development computer?

 Christie Mason

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RE: # Re: [WSG] Beta Testers Needed for BCAT

2009-01-14 Thread Christie Mason
Well there goes that theory.  My thoughts were something like graphically
oriented people are attracted to using Macs and Flash.  BCAT's attempting to
make Flash accessible is good but if the content hadn't been made
inaccessible in the first place, then it wouldn't be needed.

Yes, Flash can be used appropriately to give rich depth to a concept,  but
it's still primarily used in the eLearning world (including both corporate
trainers and educators) to port PPT to Flash and that's just wrong.

Christie Mason


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Re: # Re: [WSG] Beta Testers Needed for BCAT

2009-01-14 Thread Brett Patterson
And we do agree. But again, NOT THE POINT, although it may be wrong, it may
need to be designed accessible in the first place, it hasn't, so don't argue
the point. End it at the fact that something needs to be done and people are
ignorant. BCAT is doing what people should be doing, fixing things that are
inaccessible, NO MATTER WHAT!

--
Brett P.


On Wed, Jan 14, 2009 at 3:22 PM, Christie Mason cma...@managersforum.comwrote:

  Well there goes that theory.  My thoughts were something like graphically
 oriented people are attracted to using Macs and Flash.  BCAT's attempting to
 make Flash accessible is good but if the content hadn't been made
 inaccessible in the first place, then it wouldn't be needed.

 Yes, Flash can be used appropriately to give rich depth to a concept,  but
 it's still primarily used in the eLearning world (including both corporate
 trainers and educators) to port PPT to Flash and that's just wrong.

 Christie Mason

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Re: # Re: [WSG] Beta Testers Needed for BCAT

2009-01-14 Thread Andrew Maben

On Jan 14, 2009, at 3:22 PM, Christie Mason wrote:

Well there goes that theory.  My thoughts were something like  
graphically oriented people are attracted to using Macs and Flash.   
BCAT's attempting to make Flash accessible is good but if the  
content hadn't been made inaccessible in the first place, then it  
wouldn't be needed.


Yes, Flash can be used appropriately to give rich depth to a  
concept,  but it's still primarily used in the eLearning world  
(including both corporate trainers and educators) to port PPT to  
Flash and that's just wrong.


I'm visually oriented - I got here from graphic design - and I love  
Macs and like you am less than thrilled with *the uses to which Flash  
is put on the web*


I think the Mac has a better user interface (or at least did). There  
are things that I do enjoy in Flash.


But as others have mentioned these *personal* attitudes are entirely  
beside the point.


None of the arguments you have put forward seem to me to have any  
real bearing on Flash per se. Yes education is a mess, yes  
educators are too seldom inspired or inspiring. But uninspired  
educators are going to be lazy in their use of any tool put at their  
disposal. Should Flash be banished forever because it is  
inappropriately used and then poorly implemented? I dunno, should we  
ban axes on account of Lizzie Borden?


sorry, I'm just getting tired of this discussion which has long  
since degenerated into an extraordinarily verbose repetition of  
Does! - Doesn't! - Does so! - Oh no it  
doesn't


Seems like the gist was covered days ago, i.e. Flash is a medium  
that has a history of inappropriate use, but Adobe is making efforts  
to extend its accessibility. As a tool it has its uses, in the hands  
of fools it's dangerous.


Andrew

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Re: # Re: [WSG] Beta Testers Needed for BCAT - THREAD CLOSED

2009-01-14 Thread russ - maxdesign
THREAD CLOSED ­ GONE ON LONG ENOUGH

Please do not reply to this thread any more.
Thanks
Russ
List admin




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Re: # Re: [WSG] Beta Testers Needed for BCAT

2009-01-13 Thread Matt Morgan-May
On 1/12/09 2:20 AM, michael.brocking...@bt.com
michael.brocking...@bt.com wrote:
 Quote: The fact is that many educators have found that they can use
 Flash to teach their students effectively.
 
 I think you (and those teachers that you refer to) are mistaking an
 effective lesson, for effective teaching.*
[...]
 * It may be easier to teach people to use Flash to get a particular
 result, but at the end of the day they have not learned what they need
 to know, which is that Flash is Evil.

If evil is all you have to say about Flash, then there's not much that can
be said. It's clearly not worth taking a reasoned approach to convince you
that it has merit as a classroom tool, despite the thousands of teachers and
millions of students using it.

 Also, I think you mis-understand where the problem lies. Because of the
 way that Flash works, almost all of it is inaccessible to assistive
 technology. 

I have to challenge that assertion, as the engineer who's principally
responsible for improving the accessibility of Flash. Having followed Flash
accessibility since it was first introduced (in 2002), I can tell you that
it has improved dramatically since that time, to the extent that I'd argue
accessible RIA development in Flash today is more efficient (and definitely
better-supported) than the same work done in Ajax.

ARIA will help Ajax get to where we are today, but then Ajax authors will be
in the same situation: most of them failing, usually unconsciously, to
produce accessible applications by default. When that's the case, will you
blame Ajax, or its frameworks, or the individual authors? Will Ajax be evil?

 Adobe could do a better job, the makers of assistive
 technology could do a better job

Great. I'm all ears. What should we do? So far, the impression that I get is
that we should give up. Flash being evil and all. But since we continue to
improve our accessibility, please feel free to send me your ideas.

 but there is very little that the man in the middle can do

This is the heart of the matter. It's just not true. Flash authors can do a
lot to be directly accessible to assistive technology. And bringing it all
back to the original message here, that's what BCAT's developers are trying
to do. What's wrong with more people producing more accessible Flash
content, other than you disliking Flash?

-
M



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Re: # Re: [WSG] Beta Testers Needed for BCAT

2009-01-13 Thread David Lane
On Tue, 2009-01-13 at 11:42 -0800, Matt Morgan-May wrote:
 If evil is all you have to say about Flash, then there's not much that can
 be said. It's clearly not worth taking a reasoned approach to convince you
 that it has merit as a classroom tool, despite the thousands of teachers and
 millions of students using it.

Thousands and millions of teachers/students also use MS Powerpoint and
MS Word, too (paid for by hapless taxpayers), and we've all seen the
horrible uneducated results of that, I'm sure... We web developers use
the term angry fruit salad to describe it.

  Adobe could do a better job, the makers of assistive
  technology could do a better job
 
 Great. I'm all ears. What should we do? So far, the impression that I get is
 that we should give up. Flash being evil and all. But since we continue to
 improve our accessibility, please feel free to send me your ideas.

In my opinion, the next improvement Adobe Flash needs, if it wants to be
acceptable to at least this member of the Web Standards Group audience,
would be for Adobe to create the definitive Flash specification, release
it under a royalty-free and patent unencumbered license, and try to get
ISO certification (without buying/badgering national bodies, a la
Microsoft). 

Then there could be competition in the provision of tools for Flash
(rather than the current Adobe monopoly), and I, for one, would be
willing to consider using it... where it's appropriate.

  but there is very little that the man in the middle can do
 
 This is the heart of the matter. It's just not true. Flash authors can do a
 lot to be directly accessible to assistive technology. And bringing it all
 back to the original message here, that's what BCAT's developers are trying
 to do. What's wrong with more people producing more accessible Flash
 content, other than you disliking Flash?

BCAT's developers have a serious nerve asking the WSG community to
provide feedback on a site they've built, but then require that
a) people compromise their freedom by signing an NDA to even view the
site, and then add insult to injury by 
b) making the terms of the NDA available only in a non-standard,
proprietary MS Word DOC format. 

Frankly, I'm amazed that some people (the BCAT guy) have so little
appreciation for the audience they're entreating to give them free
consultation.

Dave

-- 
David Lane = Egressive Ltd = d...@egressive.com = m:+64 21 229 8147
p:+64 3 963 3733 = Linux: it just tastes better = nosoftwarepatents
http://egressive.com  we only use open standards: http://w3.org
Effusion Group Founding Member === http://effusiongroup.com




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RE: # Re: [WSG] Beta Testers Needed for BCAT

2009-01-13 Thread Webb, KerryA
 -Original Message-
 From: li...@webstandardsgroup.org [mailto:li...@webstandardsgroup.org]
On
 Behalf Of Matt Morgan-May
 Sent: Wednesday, 14 January 2009 6:43 AM
 To: wsg@webstandardsgroup.org
 Subject: Re: # Re: [WSG] Beta Testers Needed for BCAT
 
 
  Adobe could do a better job, the makers of assistive
  technology could do a better job
 
 Great. I'm all ears. What should we do? So far, the impression that I
get
 is that we should give up. 

Don't give up, just enable Accessibility as the default option at the
factory.

I attended a presentation recently by an Adobe employee and this
question was asked twice and he ignored it twice.

Kerry 
  
---
This email, and any attachments, may be confidential and also privileged. If 
you are not the intended recipient, please notify the sender and delete all 
copies of this transmission along with any attachments immediately. You should 
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RE: # Re: [WSG] Beta Testers Needed for BCAT

2009-01-13 Thread Andrew R
 

 A question was asked early in this thread about what are the benefits of 
 using Flash? There's been no answer to that question. I was hoping to learn 
 some answers because I've been confused about why it's become so widely used 
 in eLearning. I think I see several factors but I also think I'm still 
 missing part of the puzzle.
 
Christie 
Barh – to express my frustration about this general topic. I also agree 
with most of what you’re saying. My first paid web work was developing online 
learning products in the days before the term eLearning existed (showing my age 
here). From what you are saying it sounds like the scene has changed little 
over the last ten years. So from my observation the tide is not turning the 
whole scene has been riddled with problems since the term got ‘eLearning’ 
gained buzz word compliant status. So I have couple of slightly different takes 
on what you’re saying:
 1. Teachers/trainers continue to be committed to linear, push methodologies. 
 
Plenty of teachers, trainers, training providers, universities, TAFEs, schools, 
HR areas, etc are essentially lazy and can’t be bothered to actually understand 
learning theory. This is why they ‘continue to be committed to linear, push 
methodologies’, it’s easy to understand and cheep to develop. Vendor just give 
the market what they want.   2. Teacher/trainer decision makers don't love 
the web, possibly because they can't control it.
  3. There appears to be broad acceptance of the theories of multiple types 
  of intelligence and different learning styles by teacher/trainers, but no 
  interest in learning how the web has evolved to meet those different needs.
So you’re saying they hate the web and still don't get it after all these 
years. In my experience the real reason they hate it is fear; it shows them up 
to be lazy, sloppy and in the worst cases bad at their jobs. The smart and 
innovative teachers etc love the web because it is a great tool, full of 
opportunities and it can be used to work around many of the problems of more 
traditional media.
 
And now on to a small rant about Flash. I’m with others here – basically I’m 
perplexed by the implication that Flash is some how cornerstone of good 
eLearning, esp since so much of it is so bad. And here’s the problem and I’m 
going to make some gross simplification to illustrate my point. Flash is 
prominently a tool for supporting interaction with certain types of content. It 
does not enable a whole bunch of other activities that could (should) be 
included in supporting learning activity, such a peer discussion, 
collaboration, testing and application of knowledge etc. So while eLearning is 
predominately seen as Flash then eLearning is should not be viewed as a sound 
approach to learning. The accessibility issue is a great summary of the problem 
with Flash; it can be accessible but because it is often done badly it 
generally isn’t. So a good tool often badly used. 
 
And this is the reasons I have a problem with Flash...
Andrew  
http://webgovernanceproblems.blogspot.com/
 
_
Cut through the jargon: find a PC for your needs.
http://clk.atdmt.com/UKM/go/130777504/direct/01/

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Re: # Re: [WSG] Beta Testers Needed for BCAT

2009-01-13 Thread nedlud
Having worked as both a teacher in higher ed, and in a support role
for teachers in higher ed, I have to agree 100% with Andrew.

Flash is the devil you know. Teachers use it so they don't have to
learn something new. It amazes me how many people still get away with
making flash sites, and burning it to a CD, and calling it education.
For so many people, just putting an e (can I buy a vowel?) on the
start of something still makes it *very* exciting.



On Wed, Jan 14, 2009 at 12:14 PM, Andrew R a_rem...@hotmail.com wrote:

 A question was asked early in this thread about what are the benefits of
 using Flash? There's been no answer to that question. I was hoping to
 learn
 some answers because I've been confused about why it's become so widely
 used
 in eLearning. I think I see several factors but I also think I'm still
 missing part of the puzzle.



 Christie

 Barh – to express my frustration about this general topic. I also
 agree with most of what you're saying. My first paid web work was developing
 online learning products in the days before the term eLearning existed
 (showing my age here). From what you are saying it sounds like the scene has
 changed little over the last ten years. So from my observation the tide is
 not turning the whole scene has been riddled with problems since the term
 got 'eLearning' gained buzz word compliant status. So I have couple of
 slightly different takes on what you're saying:

 1. Teachers/trainers continue to be committed to linear, push
 methodologies.



 Plenty of teachers, trainers, training providers, universities, TAFEs,
 schools, HR areas, etc are essentially lazy and can't be bothered to
 actually understand learning theory. This is why they 'continue to be
 committed to linear, push methodologies', it's easy to understand and cheep
 to develop. Vendor just give the market what they want.

 2. Teacher/trainer decision makers don't love the web, possibly because
 they
 can't control it.


 3. There appears to be broad acceptance of the theories of multiple types
 of intelligence and different learning styles by teacher/trainers, but no
 interest in learning how the web has evolved to meet those different
 needs.

 So you're saying they hate the web and still don't get it after all these
 years. In my experience the real reason they hate it is fear; it shows them
 up to be lazy, sloppy and in the worst cases bad at their jobs. The smart
 and innovative teachers etc love the web because it is a great tool, full of
 opportunities and it can be used to work around many of the problems of more
 traditional media.



 And now on to a small rant about Flash. I'm with others here – basically I'm
 perplexed by the implication that Flash is some how cornerstone of good
 eLearning, esp since so much of it is so bad. And here's the problem and I'm
 going to make some gross simplification to illustrate my point. Flash is
 prominently a tool for supporting interaction with certain types of content.
 It does not enable a whole bunch of other activities that could (should) be
 included in supporting learning activity, such a peer discussion,
 collaboration, testing and application of knowledge etc. So while eLearning
 is predominately seen as Flash then eLearning is should not be viewed as a
 sound approach to learning. The accessibility issue is a great summary of
 the problem with Flash; it can be accessible but because it is often done
 badly it generally isn't. So a good tool often badly used.



 And this is the reasons I have a problem with Flash...

 Andrew



 http://webgovernanceproblems.blogspot.com/



 
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Re: # Re: [WSG] Beta Testers Needed for BCAT

2009-01-13 Thread Hassan Schroeder

Andrew R wrote:

,... and I’m going to make some gross simplification to illustrate my 
point. 


Apparently.

 Flash is prominently a tool for supporting interaction with
certain types of content. It does not enable a whole bunch of other 
activities that could (should) be included in supporting learning 
activity, such a peer discussion, collaboration, testing and application 
of knowledge etc. 


Absolute, utter nonsense. Flash is a platform.

Have you ever developed -- or even used -- an application built in
Flex, or OpenLaszlo? Perfectly simple to do any of the above, with
the advantage of easy integration with video and other rich content.

--
Hassan Schroeder - has...@webtuitive.com
Webtuitive Design ===  (+1) 408-621-3445   === http://webtuitive.com

  dream.  code.


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RE: # Re: [WSG] Beta Testers Needed for BCAT

2009-01-13 Thread Christie Mason
From: Hassan Schroeder

Have you ever developed -- or even used -- an application built in
Flex, or OpenLaszlo? Perfectly simple to do any of the above, with
the advantage of easy integration with video and other rich content.

[CM]

Yes, I've tried Flex and abandoned the effort.  It didn't give me any
additional benefits to offset the effort and it greatly reduced the ability
to index and organize content to make it searchable, findable.  About the
only benefit I've found to Flash is in the use of video.  But I only use
video to augment the primary content, not contain primary content.  There's
no benefit in having true interactive methods such as discussion forums or
wikis or blogs in Flash.  Yes, taxonomies and keywords can be assigned but
the content remains locked away.

Plus, I still haven't seen any postings explaining the benefits of taking
accessible text and graphics, then going through the effort of creating
Flash files from them, then going through the effort of making Flash
accessible.  Plus, there's the maintenance issue.  Simple example I always
use is what if you had to change a corporate logo in every Flash file?  To
do that with a dynamic database approach you change the file once and that's
it.  To change it in every Flash file, you have to find the source, if you
can, then change each file and rerun it.  Or, even more fun, try to change
something like a product image where you don't know which Flash files
referenced which version of which product image when they were created.

Christie Mason



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Re: # Re: [WSG] Beta Testers Needed for BCAT

2009-01-13 Thread Hassan Schroeder

Christie Mason wrote:

Yes, I've tried Flex and abandoned the effort. 



...  Plus, there's the maintenance issue.  Simple example I always
use is what if you had to change a corporate logo in every Flash file?  To
do that with a dynamic database approach you change the file once and that's
it.  To change it in every Flash file...


.. you do exactly the same thing, because it's not in every Flash
file at all.

Yes, you obviously didn't get very far with Flex -- so, why are you
arguing the (de)merits of a technology you don't understand?

--
Hassan Schroeder - has...@webtuitive.com
Webtuitive Design ===  (+1) 408-621-3445   === http://webtuitive.com

  dream.  code.


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RE: # Re: [WSG] Beta Testers Needed for BCAT

2009-01-12 Thread michael.brockington
Quote: The fact is that many educators have found that they can use
Flash to teach their students effectively.

I think you (and those teachers that you refer to) are mistaking an
effective lesson, for effective teaching.*  

Also, I think you mis-understand where the problem lies. Because of the
way that Flash works, almost all of it is inaccessible to assistive
technology. Adobe could do a better job, the makers of assistive
technology could do a better job, but there is very little that the man
in the middle can do, other than restricting the scope of Flash to
things that could be better done with HTML etc. So from that
perspective, any body that pushes Flash as a general purpose medium is
doing a disservice to the community.

---
* It may be easier to teach people to use Flash to get a particular
result, but at the end of the day they have not learned what they need
to know, which is that Flash is Evil.


Regards,
Mike

Mike Brockington
Web Development Specialist

www.calcResult.com
www.stephanieBlakey.me.uk
www.edinburgh.gov.uk

This message does not reflect the opinions of any entity other than the
author alone.


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RE: # Re: [WSG] Beta Testers Needed for BCAT

2009-01-12 Thread Christie Mason
A question was asked early in this thread about what are the benefits of
using Flash? There's been no answer to that question.  I was hoping to learn
some answers because I've been confused about why it's become so widely used
in eLearning.I think I see several factors but I also think I'm still
missing part of the puzzle.

1.   Teachers/trainers continue to be committed to linear, push
methodologies.  That's the way they were forced to learn, enjoyed learning,
so it must be the right way.   Books, PPT, films, etc are all linear
displays of tightly controlled, tightly packaged content.Flash is the
most similar to that type of content.  It's controlled, linear and has a
beginning, middle and end.  Vendors saw this preference and developed their
apps accordingly.  Soon the only apps that were available to create
eLearning were all Flash based.  It then became a self-expanding cycle of
teacher/trainers seeing Flash being used everywhere, which caused them to
think that was the right way to do eLearning, which caused more vendors to
make more apps that only delivered Flash based content.  Using those apps
is, at least initially, easier than actually learning about the web so the
cycle continues.

2. Teacher/trainer decision makers don't love the web, possibly because they
can't control it.   The web doesn't force you to begin at page 1, chapter 1.
You can begin anywhere and then move back to simpler content, go sideways,
or delve to the point where you know more than the teacher/trainer.  You can
learn from people that are not the teacher/trainer.  You don't have to learn
in lock step with others, you can form and reform groups that match your
interests and learning level.

3. There appears to be broad acceptance of the theories of  multiple types
of intelligence and different learning styles by teacher/trainers, but no
interest in learning how the web has evolved to meet those different needs.
The web is a continuously evolving experiment in supporting different
learning preferences.  When the first web sites based solely on Flash were
offered, they failed and the web turned towards exploring other content
formats and ways of organizing content.  Useful content that is findable,
refindable and easy to use succeeds.   That doesn't describe content that
has been buried in Flash.

I have hope that the tide is turning.  Teachers/trainers have experienced
the difficulties in creating and maintaining their content in Flash (just
try changing one image used in multiple Flash files and the difficulties
become clear)  the web generation is beginning to pierce/influence decision
making levels, students/employees that love the web push to learn from
formal resources the way they informally learn from the web, plus content
changes in ever decreasing time cycles which leaves little time to build and
rebuild Flash delivered content.

Christie Mason



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Re: # Re: [WSG] Beta Testers Needed for BCAT

2009-01-11 Thread Simon Pascal Klein


On 11/01/2009, at 4:08 PM, James Ducker wrote:

Ultimately teachers should aim to teach the skills that are  
required of students entering the industry.


The TAFE students I tutor in Sydney are being taught XHTML, XML, CSS  
table-free layouts, and so on, so not a bad start. The JavaScript  
courses look like they could use some improvement (see below). I  
think the biggest shortcoming though is that students are being  
taught the skills with no context, i.e. they are not taught how to  
further perpetuate their skills, which is an important shortcoming  
in an industry that evolves so rapidly.


On a side note, my personal opinion on web media courses focusing  
on rich web content is that they should still entail the bare  
basics of HTML, XHTML, and CSS, with a toe-dip into JavaScript.  
These technologies are so fundamental to the web, and given their  
role as standards they should be part of any web-related courses.


One of the most consistent problems I encounter when tutoring  
students is that a toe-dip into JavaScript simply doesn't work. JS  
is a fully-fledged OO scripting language, and as such in order to  
teach it properly a grassroots introduction to OO concepts is  
necessary. The course seems to have improved in the last year or so,  
in that they are teaching more current applications of JS, but  
that's about it.


Web development courses should definitely include JS, but for the  
media-rich courses, such as the new media arts design courses that  
dabble in the web as a presentation medium, I think the bare basics of  
JS should suffice—sorry; that’s what I meant. (:



—Pascal



- James



On Sat, Jan 10, 2009 at 4:11 PM, Simon Pascal Klein  
kle...@klepas.org wrote:


On 10/01/2009, at 6:50 AM, Matt Morgan-May wrote:

Hi,

Excuse me for jumping in here, especially (in this case) as a Flash
partisan. But I fail to see how this kind of project can be anything  
other

than a good thing overall.

What I don't understand is why people are instantly critical of  
projects
that are actually attempting to increase access to new technology.  
I've
heard a constant drumbeat of don't use Flash: it's inaccessible in  
the
years I've been involved in the field. But if we don't have people  
pushing
that envelope, doesn't that make that statement self-fulfilling  
prophecy?
There are lots of us out there working on improving the  
accessibility of

both existing and future content authored in Flash.

There are many arguments to be made for HTML -- I made loads of them  
while
working for W3C, all of which I would stand by today -- but it is  
not all
things to all people. The fact is that many educators have found  
that they
can use Flash to teach their students effectively. I'm not an  
educator by

profession, but my wife is, and she prefers Flash over HTML/CSS/JS to
develop her courseware. If you were to tell her she's wrong,  
especially

before seeing what kind of work she does, I think you'd probably find
yourself dodging a couple shelves' worth of education texts. Telling a
professional their tools are wrong is not the most endearing of  
approaches.
In my opinion, the best one can do is to learn what they're doing,  
and offer

ways to make that output more efficient, more inclusive, and easier to
produce.

Teachers aren't usually web developers, and we shouldn't want them  
to be. So
I'm all for companies taking on the technical problems so teachers  
can be

teachers, and so on.

Ultimately teachers should aim to teach the skills that are required  
of students entering the industry. It's not uncommon that many  
secondary and tertiary IT and web media courses are grossly  
outdated. From my experience this is mostly attributed to the  
teacher's education in the field which they received when they did  
their tertiary education in order to teach, and have since not  
remained up to date with new developments and sadly even standards.  
Money and a requirement to regularly attend courses to keep  
educators up to date help in this regard but nothing beats personal  
interest—the high school IT teacher that in their own time is  
actively involved in his or her field will be more likely to teach  
his students about the latest relevant and exciting bleeding edge  
technologies.


On a side note, my personal opinion on web media courses focusing on  
rich web content is that they should still entail the bare basics of  
HTML, XHTML, and CSS, with a toe-dip into JavaScript. These  
technologies are so fundamental to the web, and given their role as  
standards they should be part of any web-related courses.


Just my 2¢. Thanks for raising this topic. (:


—Pascal



Thanks,
M
Accessibility Engineer, Adobe

Christie Mason said:
Exactly right.  I've sadly watched Flash take over eLearning and still
haven't figured out the attraction, except that it offers the  
control of PPT
while appearing to be rich.There's only a very few types of  
web sites
that still use Flash for 

Re: # Re: [WSG] Beta Testers Needed for BCAT

2009-01-10 Thread James Ducker

 Ultimately teachers should aim to teach the skills that are required of
 students entering the industry.


The TAFE students I tutor in Sydney are being taught XHTML, XML, CSS
table-free layouts, and so on, so not a bad start. The JavaScript courses
look like they could use some improvement (see below). I think the biggest
shortcoming though is that students are being taught the skills with no
context, i.e. they are not taught how to further perpetuate their skills,
which is an important shortcoming in an industry that evolves so rapidly.


 On a side note, my personal opinion on web media courses focusing on rich
 web content is that they should still entail the bare basics of HTML, XHTML,
 and CSS, with a toe-dip into JavaScript. These technologies are so
 fundamental to the web, and given their role as standards they should be
 part of any web-related courses.


One of the most consistent problems I encounter when tutoring students is
that a toe-dip into JavaScript simply doesn't work. JS is a fully-fledged
OO scripting language, and as such in order to teach it properly a
grassroots introduction to OO concepts is necessary. The course seems to
have improved in the last year or so, in that they are teaching more current
applications of JS, but that's about it.

- James



On Sat, Jan 10, 2009 at 4:11 PM, Simon Pascal Klein kle...@klepas.orgwrote:


 On 10/01/2009, at 6:50 AM, Matt Morgan-May wrote:

  Hi,

 Excuse me for jumping in here, especially (in this case) as a Flash
 partisan. But I fail to see how this kind of project can be anything other
 than a good thing overall.

 What I don't understand is why people are instantly critical of projects
 that are actually attempting to increase access to new technology. I've
 heard a constant drumbeat of don't use Flash: it's inaccessible in the
 years I've been involved in the field. But if we don't have people pushing
 that envelope, doesn't that make that statement self-fulfilling prophecy?
 There are lots of us out there working on improving the accessibility of
 both existing and future content authored in Flash.

 There are many arguments to be made for HTML -- I made loads of them while
 working for W3C, all of which I would stand by today -- but it is not all
 things to all people. The fact is that many educators have found that they
 can use Flash to teach their students effectively. I'm not an educator by
 profession, but my wife is, and she prefers Flash over HTML/CSS/JS to
 develop her courseware. If you were to tell her she's wrong, especially
 before seeing what kind of work she does, I think you'd probably find
 yourself dodging a couple shelves' worth of education texts. Telling a
 professional their tools are wrong is not the most endearing of
 approaches.
 In my opinion, the best one can do is to learn what they're doing, and
 offer
 ways to make that output more efficient, more inclusive, and easier to
 produce.

 Teachers aren't usually web developers, and we shouldn't want them to be.
 So
 I'm all for companies taking on the technical problems so teachers can be
 teachers, and so on.


 Ultimately teachers should aim to teach the skills that are required of
 students entering the industry. It's not uncommon that many secondary and
 tertiary IT and web media courses are grossly outdated. From my experience
 this is mostly attributed to the teacher's education in the field which they
 received when they did their tertiary education in order to teach, and have
 since not remained up to date with new developments and sadly even
 standards. Money and a requirement to regularly attend courses to keep
 educators up to date help in this regard but nothing beats personal
 interest—the high school IT teacher that in their own time is actively
 involved in his or her field will be more likely to teach his students about
 the latest relevant and exciting bleeding edge technologies.

 On a side note, my personal opinion on web media courses focusing on rich
 web content is that they should still entail the bare basics of HTML, XHTML,
 and CSS, with a toe-dip into JavaScript. These technologies are so
 fundamental to the web, and given their role as standards they should be
 part of any web-related courses.

 Just my 2¢. Thanks for raising this topic. (:


 —Pascal


  Thanks,
 M
 Accessibility Engineer, Adobe

 Christie Mason said:

 Exactly right.  I've sadly watched Flash take over eLearning and still
 haven't figured out the attraction, except that it offers the control of
 PPT
 while appearing to be rich.There's only a very few types of web
 sites
 that still use Flash for delivering primary content - media sites, those
 that focus more on look at me instead of  being a resource to their
 site
 guests, and eLearning.


  Since, supposedly, eLearning is about offering web based resources for
 learning it just doesn't make sense to me that it has ignored all the
 ways
 the web has supported, continues to support,  learning w/o using Flash.
 

RE: # Re: [WSG] Beta Testers Needed for BCAT

2009-01-09 Thread Rick Faircloth
Agreed!

 -Original Message-
 From: li...@webstandardsgroup.org [mailto:li...@webstandardsgroup.org] On 
 Behalf Of Matt
Morgan-May
 Sent: Friday, January 09, 2009 2:50 PM
 To: wsg@webstandardsgroup.org
 Subject: # Re: [WSG] Beta Testers Needed for BCAT
 
 Hi,
 
 Excuse me for jumping in here, especially (in this case) as a Flash
 partisan. But I fail to see how this kind of project can be anything other
 than a good thing overall.
 
 What I don't understand is why people are instantly critical of projects
 that are actually attempting to increase access to new technology. I've
 heard a constant drumbeat of don't use Flash: it's inaccessible in the
 years I've been involved in the field. But if we don't have people pushing
 that envelope, doesn't that make that statement self-fulfilling prophecy?
 There are lots of us out there working on improving the accessibility of
 both existing and future content authored in Flash.
 
 There are many arguments to be made for HTML -- I made loads of them while
 working for W3C, all of which I would stand by today -- but it is not all
 things to all people. The fact is that many educators have found that they
 can use Flash to teach their students effectively. I'm not an educator by
 profession, but my wife is, and she prefers Flash over HTML/CSS/JS to
 develop her courseware. If you were to tell her she's wrong, especially
 before seeing what kind of work she does, I think you'd probably find
 yourself dodging a couple shelves' worth of education texts. Telling a
 professional their tools are wrong is not the most endearing of approaches.
 In my opinion, the best one can do is to learn what they're doing, and offer
 ways to make that output more efficient, more inclusive, and easier to
 produce.
 
 Teachers aren't usually web developers, and we shouldn't want them to be. So
 I'm all for companies taking on the technical problems so teachers can be
 teachers, and so on.
 
 Thanks,
 M
 Accessibility Engineer, Adobe
 
 Christie Mason said:
  Exactly right.  I've sadly watched Flash take over eLearning and still
  haven't figured out the attraction, except that it offers the control of PPT
  while appearing to be rich.There's only a very few types of web sites
  that still use Flash for delivering primary content - media sites, those
  that focus more on look at me instead of  being a resource to their site
  guests, and eLearning.
 
  Since, supposedly, eLearning is about offering web based resources for
  learning it just doesn't make sense to me that it has ignored all the ways
  the web has supported, continues to support,  learning w/o using Flash.
  Flash on the web is like cooking with garlic.  A little adds depth, a lot is
  inedible.
 
 
 
 
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Re: # Re: [WSG] Beta Testers Needed for BCAT

2009-01-09 Thread Simon Pascal Klein


On 10/01/2009, at 6:50 AM, Matt Morgan-May wrote:


Hi,

Excuse me for jumping in here, especially (in this case) as a Flash
partisan. But I fail to see how this kind of project can be anything  
other

than a good thing overall.

What I don't understand is why people are instantly critical of  
projects
that are actually attempting to increase access to new technology.  
I've
heard a constant drumbeat of don't use Flash: it's inaccessible in  
the
years I've been involved in the field. But if we don't have people  
pushing
that envelope, doesn't that make that statement self-fulfilling  
prophecy?
There are lots of us out there working on improving the  
accessibility of

both existing and future content authored in Flash.

There are many arguments to be made for HTML -- I made loads of them  
while
working for W3C, all of which I would stand by today -- but it is  
not all
things to all people. The fact is that many educators have found  
that they
can use Flash to teach their students effectively. I'm not an  
educator by

profession, but my wife is, and she prefers Flash over HTML/CSS/JS to
develop her courseware. If you were to tell her she's wrong,  
especially

before seeing what kind of work she does, I think you'd probably find
yourself dodging a couple shelves' worth of education texts. Telling a
professional their tools are wrong is not the most endearing of  
approaches.
In my opinion, the best one can do is to learn what they're doing,  
and offer

ways to make that output more efficient, more inclusive, and easier to
produce.

Teachers aren't usually web developers, and we shouldn't want them  
to be. So
I'm all for companies taking on the technical problems so teachers  
can be

teachers, and so on.


Ultimately teachers should aim to teach the skills that are required  
of students entering the industry. It’s not uncommon that many  
secondary and tertiary IT and web media courses are grossly outdated.  
From my experience this is mostly attributed to the teacher’s  
education in the field which they received when they did their  
tertiary education in order to teach, and have since not remained up  
to date with new developments and sadly even standards. Money and a  
requirement to regularly attend courses to keep educators up to date  
help in this regard but nothing beats personal interest—the high  
school IT teacher that in their own time is actively involved in his  
or her field will be more likely to teach his students about the  
latest relevant and exciting bleeding edge technologies.


On a side note, my personal opinion on web media courses focusing on  
rich web content is that they should still entail the bare basics of  
HTML, XHTML, and CSS, with a toe-dip into JavaScript. These  
technologies are so fundamental to the web, and given their role as  
standards they should be part of any web-related courses.


Just my 2¢. Thanks for raising this topic. (:


—Pascal



Thanks,
M
Accessibility Engineer, Adobe

Christie Mason said:
Exactly right.  I've sadly watched Flash take over eLearning and  
still
haven't figured out the attraction, except that it offers the  
control of PPT
while appearing to be rich.There's only a very few types of  
web sites
that still use Flash for delivering primary content - media sites,  
those
that focus more on look at me instead of  being a resource to  
their site

guests, and eLearning.


Since, supposedly, eLearning is about offering web based resources  
for
learning it just doesn't make sense to me that it has ignored all  
the ways
the web has supported, continues to support,  learning w/o using  
Flash.
Flash on the web is like cooking with garlic.  A little adds depth,  
a lot is

inedible.





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---
Simon Pascal Klein
Concept designer

(w) http://klepas.org
(e) kle...@klepas.org



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