Edgar,
EXPERIENCE is sensual and takes place before any post-processing is done by the
intellect.
PERCEPTION is the result of the post-processing done by the intellect.
Here is a zen story that I'm sure you've heard of before that illustrates this:
NO THINKING, NO SUFFERING
There is a story
Charles,
I agree and that's why I said Any activity CAN be zen pracitce..., but that
(as you pointed out) doesn't mean it is.
...Bill!
--- In Zen_Forum@yahoogroups.com, Charles Gee gee512@... wrote:
Bill wrote;
but I could add that zazen (zen meditation) is not the only facet of
zen
William,
The person who makes a distinction between 'zen' and 'Zen' is me.
The way I use these terms 'Zen' (upper-case 'Z') is a proper noun and refers to
Zen Buddhism which I see as a sub-set or sect of Buddhism. It's 'zen' wrapped
up in all the dogma and doctrine of Buddhism.
I refer to
Merle,
That's right! Don't let him off the hook! What about all the sentient beings
that are not able to reason - like bacteria and plants?
...Bill!
--- In Zen_Forum@yahoogroups.com, Merle Lester merlewiitpom@... wrote:
 edgar..yes agreed..
however you are constantly rabbeting on
Merle,
Yes, you are correct - ...according to guru edgar
Ask Edgar how then how to eliminate suffering. Maybe he'll say you have to
learn all about the causes and effects, and the associations and relationships,
and then you'll just be able to think it away. I don't know...
...Bill!
Merle,
I have 11 more but Batman's the cutest, and the smallest (except for 4 puppies
we just found that were also abandoned - but this time they weren't tied up in
a sack, just probably dumped out on the highway)...Bill!
--- In Zen_Forum@yahoogroups.com, Merle Lester merlewiitpom@... wrote:
Merle,
That's how I think of it. And also I use the term 'zen' or 'zen practice' to
describe the further integration of Buddha Nature into your daily life.
...Bill!
--- In Zen_Forum@yahoogroups.com, Merle Lester merlewiitpom@... wrote:
 bill... i agree with you..zen is the tool to
Bob,
Then it must be like Nitrous Oxide. When I get that for dental work I know I'm
being hurt but just don't care...Bill!
--- In Zen_Forum@yahoogroups.com, bobthomas564 bobthomas564@... wrote:
Chris - John Wren-Lewis states that there was a difference in his acceptance
of pain following
Edgar,
Just remember the old adage...'no good deed goes unpunished'...Bill!
--- In Zen_Forum@yahoogroups.com, Edgar Owen edgarowen@... wrote:
Bill, et al,
This reminds me of when I was living in Japan. One day I was walking along a
drainage canal and saw a small white dog drowning in it.
Bill,
I agree there are lots of sentient beings that aren't able to reason, like Bill
and Joe for starters!
:-)
Edgar
On May 3, 2013, at 5:19 AM, Bill! wrote:
Merle,
That's right! Don't let him off the hook! What about all the sentient beings
that are not able to reason - like
Bill,
The actual lesson here is that compassion is not to be done for any reward
That's the lesson the little bitting Buddha doggie teaches
Edgar
On May 3, 2013, at 5:42 AM, Bill! wrote:
Edgar,
Just remember the old adage...'no good deed goes unpunished'...Bill!
--- In
Edgar,
Nope. Twice-bitten!
The lesson is that an animal -- or person -- with an unsettled mind is
irrational, even one who thinks he is being rational.
--Joe
Edgar Owen edgarowen@... wrote:
Bill,
The actual lesson here is that compassion is not to be done for any reward
That's
Hi Joe,
Is it common for a zen master to share his experience the way it is documented
in this video?
Siska
Sent from Samsung tabletJoe desert_woodwor...@yahoo.com wrote:William,
You've got a piece of it! The actual story has nothing to do with fools, and
the word does not appear. The
Hi Bill,
You normally distinguish zen from Budhism.
If below is Buddhism 101, would you say the same for zen 101?
Siska
Sent from Samsung tabletBill! billsm...@hhs1963.org wrote:Merle,
Suffering can be entirely eliminated and William is right that this is the
promise of Buddhism.
This is
Joe,
Glad you recognize the importance of being rational all of a sudden!
:-)
Edgar
On May 3, 2013, at 9:07 AM, Joe wrote:
Edgar,
Nope. Twice-bitten!
The lesson is that an animal -- or person -- with an unsettled mind is
irrational, even one who thinks he is being rational.
--Joe
Siska,
Good morning!
I would say no, not common at all. But it all depends on the teaching
situation. Every opportunity is always fresh, and anything goes, that's
called-for. Teachers use all sorts of things and all sorts of illustrations
and demonstrations, urgings and encouragements
Edgar,
Ha; the rational I speak of is not what you think!! ;-)
--Joe
Edgar Owen edgarowen@... wrote:
Glad you recognize the importance of being rational all of a sudden!
:-)
Current Book Discussion: any Zen book that you recently have read or are
I agree...Bill!
--- In Zen_Forum@yahoogroups.com, Edgar Owen edgarowen@... wrote:
Bill,
The actual lesson here is that compassion is not to be done for any reward
That's the lesson the little bitting Buddha doggie teaches
Edgar
On May 3, 2013, at 5:42 AM, Bill! wrote:
Siska,
This is Buddhism 101 and Zen (Buddhism) 101. It's not zen 101. Zen 101 is
much simpler. In zen 101 you don't talk about illusions, attachments, self or
suffering. zen 101 is Just THIS!
...Bill!
--- In Zen_Forum@yahoogroups.com, siska siska_cen@... wrote:
Hi Bill,
You normally
...and please take note of the highlighted portions:
If you are not attached to anything, then you are free. If you hold
something, you are hindered.
When you see, when you hear, and when you smell, you are never separate
from the universe. But when thinking appears, then everything falls away
Morning Joe,
Almost time for bed here :)
I could relate with what he was describing, it was hard to describe how I felt
watching a master telling his experience.
It has been a while since I take anyone as 'authoritative' figure of a teacher.
The way we practise, we are letting go even our
Bill wrote this:
I refer to 'zen' (lower-case 'z') as a common noun and refers just to
the kernel of techniques and teachings that lead you to first experience
Buddha Nature and then to more fully integrate that experience into your
daily life. I use the term 'Buddha Nature' but it is
Evening, Siska,
I felt a little funny as Guo Jun related his story. Almost as if it is really
too personal for him to speak about, and in such an open medium as video to be
placed on the internet. But I'm glad he did it.
My first experience was exactly like his, but it went in just the
your own computational world of information forms? how can we even get
beyond our own nervous system, or perception?
whatever is seen is our nervous system...whatever is heard is our nervous
system, ETC. sense perception, our gateway to the outside world, is our
nervous system. wouldn't it
O, but it is. Exactly so..
Edgar
On May 3, 2013, at 10:17 AM, Joe wrote:
Edgar,
Ha; the rational I speak of is not what you think!! ;-)
--Joe
Edgar Owen edgarowen@... wrote:
Glad you recognize the importance of being rational all of a sudden!
:-)
Hong,
Good question. Yes, of course the world that we think we live in is entirely in
our heads. It's a mental model of the external reality we think we live in.
That's why it can be considered illusion. Because it is not as it appears to be.
However it must share sufficient logical structure
Thank you both
From: Charles Gee gee...@telus.net
To: Zen_Forum@yahoogroups.com
Sent: Fri, May 3, 2013 10:48:50 AM
Subject: [Zen] Re: blown over by a stick
Bill wrote this:
I refer to 'zen' (lower-case 'z') as a common noun and refers just to
the kernel
okay, but wait...how do we qualify external reality when the only access
to external reality is through the nervous system? how is anything in
fact external?
other responses embedded below...
On Fri, May 3, 2013 at 11:48 AM, Edgar Owen edgaro...@att.net wrote:
**
Hong,
Good question.
Hong.
The question is a good one. At first it seems impossible to know the outside
when our experience is ONLY of the inside.
But it is possible to tell the nature of the outside from the nature of the
inside.
For example it is possible to tell the shape of the cosmological space you live
in
Edgar..this is plain cruel...
you are putting far too much store in the intellect and reasoning...for
goodness sake..
what would buddha think of you?...
reasoning is just another tool we use to get by so to speak it is not the end
all of everything...
where are your feelings?...
over
bill!...send me a pic of the dogs...merle
Merle,
I have 11 more but Batman's the cutest, and the smallest (except for 4 puppies
we just found that were also abandoned - but this time they weren't tied up in
a sack, just probably dumped out on the highway)...Bill!
--- In
and edgar..ya don't get there by the mantra of the rational..you can rabbet
on and on about the rational mind... let it go..and breathe..merle
Hong,
Good question. Yes, of course the world that we think we live in is entirely in
our heads. It's a mental model of the external reality we
mike:..my pain is the pain of the world..the sadness is the human condition...
my own individual pain is totally irrelevant..if that was all it was then it
would be easy..
i do not dwell on self but the greater self..the self of all selves
the sadness is the sadness for the whole of
Hi Joe - Thank you so much for posting this video. It is wonderful.
So much to touch you, so much lost and nothing gained. Brings back a big
experience I had of being lost in small box that contained the universe, and
seeing matter as all pervading, all encompassing and sucking me into it.
Bob
Bob,
You're very welcome.
What you say about the small box reminds me right away of a poem by Robert
Graves. Maybe you know this poem already. --Joe
Warning to Children
Children, if you dare to think
Of the greatness, rareness, muchness
Fewness of
do you know this chap, joe?...merle
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=5MqZ1vBHVDU
those who know
that enough is enough
will always have enough
~~ lao tzu
Merle,
Lighten up and enjoy! Joe and Bill are the ones who mistakenly claim reason has
no part on the path TO Zen. My posts are merely responses to their attacks on
reason... We all agree reason is NOT Zen in itself, though like anything else
it can be
Edgar
On May 3, 2013, at 7:26 PM,
edgar..you are winding up again..watch the movie i posted..is reason
mentioned?... merle
Merle,
Lighten up and enjoy! Joe and Bill are the ones who mistakenly claim reason has
no part on the path TO Zen. My posts are merely responses to their attacks on
reason... We all agree reason is
Merle,
You have what is called a Christ complex, you are empathetic to the suffering
of the world.
I know as I had a severe Christ complex myself when younger.
I now understand that the very DESIGN of the world by necessity INCLUDES
suffering as an essential part. This is because life cannot
Merle,
Yes, I know Zoketsu Norm Fischer. He also came to our sangha and Zendo, and
gave us a talk about ten years ago, around the time that a book of his poems
was published. He'd also come back from the Middle East at that time, and told
us about how a few things were there, soon after
Edgar and Hong,
When I first read Edgar's comments below I thought I agreed with most of it. I
thought I would post a comment stating as much and just pointing out the few
areas where I disagreed. When I went to do that and read more carefully I
found there was just too much I'd have to
Edgar and Hong,
Inside:Outside is an illusory dualistic set created by our rational,
discriminating mind which is the source of all illusions.
I guess that's all I have to say on this right now...Bill!
--- In Zen_Forum@yahoogroups.com, Edgar Owen edgarowen@... wrote:
Hong.
The question is
Merle,
I'll comment on two things you said below that I think are very important
[Merle] reasoning is just another tool we use to get by so to speak it is not
the end all of everything...
...and
[Merle] bill is saying that we must let go of reasoning..
You are absolutely correct that
Hi Bill - isn't it a case of 'god made sense look outwards, therefore man looks
outwards'? Reality is a construct of the mind and we build it just about any
way we want it. BUT! A table is a table and a chair is a chair. assuming we
have all of our senses working ie we are not blind or have
Merle,
I don't have any photos of these new puppies right now but will post one when I
do.
...Bill!
--- In Zen_Forum@yahoogroups.com, Merle Lester merlewiitpom@... wrote:
 bill!...send me a pic of the dogs...merle
Â
Merle,
I have 11 more but Batman's the cutest, and the
Bob,
You bring up good points but instead of trying to address them all here
one-by-one I'll just point you to an online article that describes more
fully my observations and thinking about The Origin of the Illusion of
Self, not that it will in itself address all your questions but will
Hey, Edgar,
...was a time when you praised Merle before all of us, as an example, because
of her wonderful heart, and her openness to the world, and her willingness not
to complicate it.
And now, when she notes the dearth and paucity of those things in you and
encourages your incorporating
My life may appear melancholy,
But travelling through this world
I have entrusted myself to Heaven.
In my sack, three sho of rice;
By the hearth, a bundle of firewood.
If someone asks what is the mark of enlightenment or illusion,
I cannot say...wealth and honor are nothing but dust,
As the
edgar
we need to clarify what is the meaning of reason...
as we all know...one and one doeth not always make 2..
honestly edgar you could no doubt reason your way out of a paper bag so to
speak..
the point i see is that for reason to actually begin you have to have a
situation..e.g 9/ll..
agreed bill
well stated..is edgar learning?
merle
When I first read Edgar's comments below I thought I agreed with most of it. I
thought I would post a comment stating as much and just pointing out the few
areas where I disagreed. When I went to do that and read more carefully I
found
reason and intuition go hand in hand..merle
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Intuition_(knowledge)
bill..yes yes..
i never suggested to discard reasoning..jesus...please..
as i see it edgar is making it his mantra..
he will not let go even for a moment..
merle
Merle,
I'll comment on two things you said below that I think are very important
[Merle] reasoning is just another tool we
...Bill!
bob..butting in...please don't take philosophy and philosophers as stupid...
philosophy is very close to my heart
doing the edgar reason mantra...
if you philosophy is stupid..then i am stupid
merle
Anything else takes you into that stupid area of philosophy where all is lost
including
beautiful..and so to the point!..merle
My life may appear melancholy,
But travelling through this world
I have entrusted myself to Heaven.
In my sack, three sho of rice;
By the hearth, a bundle of firewood.
If someone asks what is the mark of enlightenment or illusion,
I cannot
so bloody true..and watch the tourists with the f cameras..clicking away...
to look at the illusion on their i pads etc long after the actual experience
bizarre
merle
...Bill!
Merle,
It's just a compensation for the fellow. It's like in any other religion, you
know, not just the religion of the model-addicted. Doctrine is created by
the reasoning mind, to systematize in thought and schema what is discovered or
recovered by mystical experience or
Merle,
Here is a link to a special meditation technique that I think you help
you with your suffering.
I't on Facebook so I don't know if you can view it, but try it
anyway...it's worth a look.
https://www.facebook.com/video/video.php?v=393561765678
Edgar..
let me get it straight..
i am not feeling sorry..i feel compassion..
jesus christ..i can't be everywhere in the world where help is needed..for
christ sake..and yes i do have empathy..compassion for suffering..
you just don't get it..
i do not exist..so hence no ego i am part of
joe..
i get it..thank you...
you are a first rate teacher of zen!..
can you begin an on line school for those of us who are unable to go to the
teacher in person
merle
Merle,
It's just a compensation for the fellow. It's like in any other religion, you
know, not just the religion
Merle,
Edgar's learning ability is not in doubt. It's his un-learning ability that I
question.
...Bill!
--- In Zen_Forum@yahoogroups.com, Merle Lester merlewiitpom@... wrote:
agreed bill
 well stated..is edgar learning?
 merle
When I first read Edgar's comments below I thought I
ah yes well put bill..merle
Merle,
Edgar's learning ability is not in doubt. It's his un-learning ability that I
question.
...Bill!
--- In Zen_Forum@yahoogroups.com, Merle Lester merlewiitpom@... wrote:
agreed bill
 well stated..is edgar learning?
 merle
When I first read
universal love
as we move through our daily life..merle
http://www.accesstoinsight.org/lib/authors/buddharakkhita/wheel365.html#ch1
bill..much appreciated..merle
Merle,
Here is a link to a special meditation technique that I think you help you with
your suffering.
I't on Facebook so I don't know if you can view it, but try it anyway...it's
worth a look.
https://www.facebook.com/video/video.php?v=393561765678
Merle,
Aww-w, shucks, Mizz Merle (looking down at his shoes).
You flatter me.
Don't be hasty: please compare me to at least a few black-, brown-, or
grey-robed teachers, first. But I am, however, officially in the Buddhist
hierarchy an Upasaka. It means, Layman. ;-) (no, seriously).
If
joe.. and edgar
don't be too hard on edgar joe...
he has his points to make and i appreciate his input..
all helps with my own clarification of who or what i am...or might become..
we are all here to learn from the Great Teacher who is us ..and that is Life..
when edgar speaks he speaks
i stumbled upon...in my search to understand edgar's meaning of reason and
those who tell me i do not understand and found this...merle
http://www.ahalmaas.com/glossary/universal-love
joe..i await your on line school!..bless you..merle
Merle,
Aww-w, shucks, Mizz Merle (looking down at his shoes).
You flatter me.
Don't be hasty: please compare me to at least a few black-, brown-, or
grey-robed teachers, first. But I am, however, officially in the Buddhist
Merle,
Right; that's why I kindly take this reserved tone. What I say is accurate, as
Edgar and everyone understands. We do not have to be mean. It's just not
necessary when we're right.
But Bill! and I sometimes speak up when Zen, Zen Practice, or even Zen Buddhism
is being misrepresented
joe..edgar,... and correct me if i am incorrect edgar places great store in the
rational mind it has obviously served him well through his journey in life..has
it not served us all well..however how he keeps hammering it as the greatest of
all tools for the zen experience is somewhat alien
joe..yes indeed.. the good thoughts are taken aboard...edgar's dilemma..check
post on rationality... merle
Merle,
Right; that's why I kindly take this reserved tone. What I say is accurate, as
Edgar and everyone understands. We do not have to be mean. It's just not
necessary when
Merle,
Dunno about placing store. Some imbalanced folk become stuck with the way
they are, and make it worse by trying to make themselves even better at being
imbalanced.
Reason has been a good and benign tool for every one of us who has not used it
against others or ourselves, except in
joe..hang on... re -read your last sentence..
where is your compassion?... we are all in stages of enlightenment? lest we
forget..love thy neighbour as thy self.
where is your self in regards to the greater self?..
you have made good strong observations here about the tool we know as
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