Re: [ZION] Subject to natural law
No, it means you've been humbled, which is spiritual progression... Jon Spencer wrote: > Well, then, if I am on an eternal progression, how come my current house is > smaller than my previous home (although the lack of a current mortgage is a > nice by-product!). > > And does this mean that I've been PO'ed? :-) > > Jon > > Paul Osborne wrote: > > > >Then, my friend, what is meant by the term eternal progression? Are we > > >being lied to? > > > > > >Jon > > > > > > No, we are not being lied to. You just don't understand what eternal > > progression is, Jon. It is a state of never ending progress as worlds > > come and go. The size of heavenly Father's kingdom grows with each > > passing eternity and that is great progress. :-) > > > > Paul O > > [EMAIL PROTECTED] > > > > > > Sign Up for Juno Platinum Internet Access Today > > Only $9.95 per month! > > Visit www.juno.com > > > > > > // > > /// ZION LIST CHARTER: Please read it at /// > > /// http://www.zionsbest.com/charter.html /// > > > > / > > > > > > > > ////////// > /// ZION LIST CHARTER: Please read it at /// > /// http://www.zionsbest.com/charter.html /// > / > -- Marc A. Schindler Spruce Grove, Alberta, Canada -- Gateway to the Boreal Parkland Knowledge may give weight, but accomplishments give lustre, and many more people see than weigh. Lord Chesterfield Note: This communication represents the informal personal views of the author solely; its contents do not necessarily reflect those of the authors employer, nor those of any organization with which the author may be associated. // /// ZION LIST CHARTER: Please read it at /// /// http://www.zionsbest.com/charter.html /// / ==^^=== This email was sent to: archive@jab.org EASY UNSUBSCRIBE click here: http://topica.com/u/?aaP9AU.bWix1n.YXJjaGl2 Or send an email to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] T O P I C A -- Register now to manage your mail! http://www.topica.com/partner/tag02/register ==^^===
Re: [ZION] Natural Law
George Cobabe wrote: > Well, of course you are right, Marc, except that it is equally true that > there is no compulsion to worship anything at all. > > My, tongue in cheek, suggestion was that it would seem natural to worship > the highest entity. > I think I got that, and I know that there's a limit to how literally I'm supposed to take your comments, but considering anything other than a living being as an "entity" is straight out of neo-hellenism (aka "the philosophies of men.") > > I believe the highest entity is God the Father, equal to many other Gods, > but not subservient to Law. > > George > > - Original Message - > From: "Marc A. Schindler" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> > To: <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> > Sent: Saturday, December 21, 2002 11:01 AM > Subject: Re: [ZION] Natural Law > > But I don't agree that we're under any compulsion whatsoever to worship "the > highest entity or concept we can come up with." We're under "compulsion" > only to > worship God. > > George Cobabe wrote: > > > I do not see the connection between my quote and your comments. > > > > My earlier, not copied comments, suggested that we needed to worship the > > highest entity or concept we could come up with. It was a rhetorical > > question attempting to point out the fallacy of believing that there was > > anything more powerful than God, even law. > > > > George > > > > - Original Message - > > From: "Marc A. Schindler" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> > > To: <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> > > Sent: Friday, December 20, 2002 8:33 PM > > Subject: Re: [ZION] Natural Law > > > > George Cobabe wrote: > > > > > You are absolutely right. However we are to worship God as the supreme > > > entity. How can we do that if He is subject to a higher force, and > > > therefore not the supreme entity. > > > > > > > A principle is not an entity. Let's revisit what Elder Joseph Fielding > Smith > > said: > > "This is an age when faith and the power of God should be greatly > increased, > > but > > to the contrary it is diminished and men boast in their own strength; yet > we > > see > > every day of our lives, the greatest of miracles. The flying of the > > airplane, the > > voice on the radio, the picture on the screen and television. There are > > thousands > > of miracles performed today, wonders that would astound our grandfathers > > could > > they suddenly see them. These miracles are as great as turning water into > > wine, > > raising the dead or anything else. A miracle is not, as many believe, the > > setting > > aside or overruling natural laws. Every miracle performed in Biblical days > > or now, > > is done on natural principles and in obedience to natural law. The healing > > of the > > sick, the raising of the dead, giving eyesight to the blind, whatever it > may > > be > > that is done by the power of God, is in accordance with natural law. > Because > > we do > > not understand how it is done, does not argue for the impossibility of it. > > Our > > Father in heaven knows many laws that are hidden from us. Man today has > > learned of > > many laws that our grandfathers did not understand. It is small business > for > > the > > critics to condemn the miracles in scriptures as though all the laws of > God > > have > > been revealed, and there could be no powers which they do not understand." > > (M:HO&D) > > > > > > > > That is my point. That there is no higher entity, not even law. > > > > > > I don't know what you mean concerning the Romans, but to say that there > is > > a > > > higher power, even law, than God is an inconsistency in the doctrine of > > > those that believe such a thing. IMNSHO > > > > > > George > > > > > > - Original Message - > > > From: "Marc A. Schindler" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> > > > To: <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> > > > Sent: Thursday, December 19, 2002 11:48 AM > > > Subject: Re: [ZION] Natural Law > > > > > > I'm afraid I don't see how it follows that we should worship the law. We > > > have been > > > told to worship God the Father. Period. Not even Jesus Christ -- God the > > > Father. > > > Worship is a person-to-person interaction as we understand it. It is the > > > Romans > > > who have to deal wi
Re: [ZION] Iraq
Why? Since when do those who prefer peace bear responsibility for others' actions? Do we also bear the responsibility for the thousands of people who have died in Kashmir simply because they were trying to exercise their right to a free vote in a democracy (India) from the hands of those who would take this away from them (Islamist groups based in Pakistan)? Again I ask (and keep in mind it's a rhetorical question -- I'm not suggesting we invade Pakistan), since every reason the US and the UK have given for the necessity of armed conflict with Iraq applies in spades to Pakistan, why aren't we talking about the invasion of Pakistan? Are we also to be held responsible for the deaths in China due to the astonishing record of the communist government there over the past half century? Jon Spencer wrote: > This is perhaps a small correction, and I would assume this is what you > meant: I am in support of a war against *Saddam*, hopefully with the > support of the Iraqi people. I am grateful to our leaders for the use of > "smart" weapons, which will minimize the number of innocent deaths. But for > those who want us to stay home because of the inevitable innocent deaths, > on you hands will be the deaths of tens of thousands of innocents joining in > with the hundreds of thousands of innocent Iraqis Saddam has already killed. > > Jon > > - Original Message - > From: "Paul Osborne" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> > To: <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> > Sent: Thursday, December 19, 2002 3:08 PM > Subject: Re: [ZION] Iraq > > > >Saddam will go. > > > > > >And as hard as it is to imagine, I guess I, too, could be wrong. > > > > > > You're not wrong this time. His days are numbered and the writing is on > > the wall. I'm in favor of a war with Iraq based on what I know about the > > situation. > > > > Paul O > > [EMAIL PROTECTED] > > > > > > Sign Up for Juno Platinum Internet Access Today > > Only $9.95 per month! > > Visit www.juno.com > > > > > > // > > /// ZION LIST CHARTER: Please read it at /// > > /// http://www.zionsbest.com/charter.html /// > > > > / > > > > > > // > /// ZION LIST CHARTER: Please read it at /// > /// http://www.zionsbest.com/charter.html /// > / > -- Marc A. Schindler Spruce Grove, Alberta, Canada -- Gateway to the Boreal Parkland Knowledge may give weight, but accomplishments give lustre, and many more people see than weigh. Lord Chesterfield Note: This communication represents the informal personal views of the author solely; its contents do not necessarily reflect those of the authors employer, nor those of any organization with which the author may be associated. // /// ZION LIST CHARTER: Please read it at /// /// http://www.zionsbest.com/charter.html /// / ==^^=== This email was sent to: archive@jab.org EASY UNSUBSCRIBE click here: http://topica.com/u/?aaP9AU.bWix1n.YXJjaGl2 Or send an email to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] T O P I C A -- Register now to manage your mail! http://www.topica.com/partner/tag02/register ==^^===
Re: [ZION] Worship Christ
I certainly wouldn't object to that. Paul Osborne wrote: > >Interesting -- I think you might have me there, at least partially, as I > was > >unaware of the GBH quote. I suppose I should have defined the term more > tightly > >and say that we don't *pray* to Jesus Christ. > > Right. I can go along with this, Marc. However, you might recall that I > said earlier that there are times in my life when I sneak a prayer to > Jesus only without thinking of the Father. I wouldn't teach this at the > church pulpit, or what not, but I am telling my friends (you) in private > that sometimes (not often) I just want to focus my thoughts on Christ > alone and tell him that I love him and need him-- he is my brother. This > tone does come from the Book of Mormon. Don't get me wrong, most every > prayer I utter is directed to the Father and I know that Christ is there > too, BUT, there are times I feel a need to think solely of Christ and his > atonement and if I think of the Father I get distracted. I have also had > this experience of prayer with Heavenly Mother a few times when I just > wanted to talk to her and no one else. Wow!! I won't get into it, it's > too sacred. > > Anyway, its my own business and I'm just sharing a little about me. I'm > not encouraging anyone to do as I do. Worship how or what you may > according to the dictates of your own conscience. And if you guys don't > like what I said-- Oh well, suit yourself. > > Paul O > [EMAIL PROTECTED] > > > Sign Up for Juno Platinum Internet Access Today > Only $9.95 per month! > Visit www.juno.com > > // > /// ZION LIST CHARTER: Please read it at /// > /// http://www.zionsbest.com/charter.html /// > / > -- Marc A. Schindler Spruce Grove, Alberta, Canada -- Gateway to the Boreal Parkland Knowledge may give weight, but accomplishments give lustre, and many more people see than weigh. Lord Chesterfield Note: This communication represents the informal personal views of the author solely; its contents do not necessarily reflect those of the authors employer, nor those of any organization with which the author may be associated. // /// ZION LIST CHARTER: Please read it at /// /// http://www.zionsbest.com/charter.html /// / ==^^=== This email was sent to: archive@jab.org EASY UNSUBSCRIBE click here: http://topica.com/u/?aaP9AU.bWix1n.YXJjaGl2 Or send an email to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] T O P I C A -- Register now to manage your mail! http://www.topica.com/partner/tag02/register ==^^===
Re: [ZION] Article in "Science" on genetic diversity
In fact, their clusters are in different areas than what we would call "racial". That is, there are several from different parts of Africa, for instance, as well as a totally different group for Melanesians (who used to be considered blacks by LDS until DOM's time). Jim Cobabe wrote: > Stephen Beecroft wrote: > --- > What?! Is this suggesting the outrageous proposition that > commonly-defined racial characteristics are genetically based? > --- > > Spare your outrage, Stephen. > > The authors of the study _studiously_ refrain from using the term > "race". Instead they characterize unique population groups as > "clusters". One cannot help but notice, however, that the "clusters" > indicated on the map correspond rather remarkably with traditional > racial demographics, but that's beside the politically-correct point. > > One wonders if the authors might have been injured by such strenuous > bending-over-backwards exertions. :-> > > --- > Mij Ebaboc > > // > /// ZION LIST CHARTER: Please read it at /// > /// http://www.zionsbest.com/charter.html /// > / > -- Marc A. Schindler Spruce Grove, Alberta, Canada -- Gateway to the Boreal Parkland Knowledge may give weight, but accomplishments give lustre, and many more people see than weigh. Lord Chesterfield Note: This communication represents the informal personal views of the author solely; its contents do not necessarily reflect those of the authors employer, nor those of any organization with which the author may be associated. // /// ZION LIST CHARTER: Please read it at /// /// http://www.zionsbest.com/charter.html /// / ==^^=== This email was sent to: archive@jab.org EASY UNSUBSCRIBE click here: http://topica.com/u/?aaP9AU.bWix1n.YXJjaGl2 Or send an email to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] T O P I C A -- Register now to manage your mail! http://www.topica.com/partner/tag02/register ==^^===
Re: [ZION] Natural Law
But I don't agree that we're under any compulsion whatsoever to worship "the highest entity or concept we can come up with." We're under "compulsion" only to worship God. George Cobabe wrote: > I do not see the connection between my quote and your comments. > > My earlier, not copied comments, suggested that we needed to worship the > highest entity or concept we could come up with. It was a rhetorical > question attempting to point out the fallacy of believing that there was > anything more powerful than God, even law. > > George > > - Original Message - > From: "Marc A. Schindler" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> > To: <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> > Sent: Friday, December 20, 2002 8:33 PM > Subject: Re: [ZION] Natural Law > > George Cobabe wrote: > > > You are absolutely right. However we are to worship God as the supreme > > entity. How can we do that if He is subject to a higher force, and > > therefore not the supreme entity. > > > > A principle is not an entity. Let's revisit what Elder Joseph Fielding Smith > said: > "This is an age when faith and the power of God should be greatly increased, > but > to the contrary it is diminished and men boast in their own strength; yet we > see > every day of our lives, the greatest of miracles. The flying of the > airplane, the > voice on the radio, the picture on the screen and television. There are > thousands > of miracles performed today, wonders that would astound our grandfathers > could > they suddenly see them. These miracles are as great as turning water into > wine, > raising the dead or anything else. A miracle is not, as many believe, the > setting > aside or overruling natural laws. Every miracle performed in Biblical days > or now, > is done on natural principles and in obedience to natural law. The healing > of the > sick, the raising of the dead, giving eyesight to the blind, whatever it may > be > that is done by the power of God, is in accordance with natural law. Because > we do > not understand how it is done, does not argue for the impossibility of it. > Our > Father in heaven knows many laws that are hidden from us. Man today has > learned of > many laws that our grandfathers did not understand. It is small business for > the > critics to condemn the miracles in scriptures as though all the laws of God > have > been revealed, and there could be no powers which they do not understand." > (M:HO&D) > > > > > That is my point. That there is no higher entity, not even law. > > > > I don't know what you mean concerning the Romans, but to say that there is > a > > higher power, even law, than God is an inconsistency in the doctrine of > > those that believe such a thing. IMNSHO > > > > George > > > > - Original Message - > > From: "Marc A. Schindler" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> > > To: <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> > > Sent: Thursday, December 19, 2002 11:48 AM > > Subject: Re: [ZION] Natural Law > > > > I'm afraid I don't see how it follows that we should worship the law. We > > have been > > told to worship God the Father. Period. Not even Jesus Christ -- God the > > Father. > > Worship is a person-to-person interaction as we understand it. It is the > > Romans > > who have to deal with the inherent inconsistencies in their theology. > > > > George Cobabe wrote: > > > > > Furthermore, if Natural Law is the great constant and above God, then it > > is > > > the law we should worship. If we choose to do so it is then we become > > more > > > like Protestants and Catholics, in that our object of worship becomes > > > something without form, no body, parts, or passions. The Law can fill > the > > > universe and yet dwell in our hearts. We become more like Jews who know > > > little, or nothing, of God, yet can produce volumes and volumes on the > > > smallest point of law and behavior. > > > > > > Those who argue there is a Law about our God need to examine what that > > > belief tells them of their priorities and what they truly worship. > > > > > > I know that they can produce all kinds of smart people who agree with > > them, > > > so I recognize that the answer may not be as simple as I suggest. > Forgive > > > me of my indiscretion if my words give offense. > > > > > > George > > > > > > - Original Message - > > > From: "Jim Cobabe" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> > > > To: <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> >
Re: [ZION] Worship Christ
Thanks for the references. I had in mind only one, and I'm too lazy to go look it up, but I'm sure it's well known to list members, and that's BRMcC's famous "Seven Deadly Heresies" talk. Also, if I recall correctly, didn't the Nephites worship Christ only to a point, after which he told them to worship the Father? Perhaps we should separate the terms "pray to" and "worship." "John W. Redelfs" wrote: > Paul Osborne favored us with: > >I agree with you on this John and submit the following to Marc which I > >think shows that we must worship Christ as well as his Father and not > >just in name only: > > > >They Spoke to Us, Friend, Dec. 1998, 15 > > > >President Gordon B. Hinckley: We believe in Christ. We worship Christ. > >We take upon ourselves in solemn covenant His holy name. The Church to > >which we belong carries His name. He is our Lord, our Savior, our > >Redeemer through whom came the great Atonement with salvation and eternal > >life. > > > >Robert E. Wells, Be a Friend, a Servant, a Son of the Savior, Ensign, > >Nov. 1982, 69 > >I said to my friend, Please allow me to explain that we definitely are > >Christianswe do worship God the Father and His Son Jesus Christ > > > >Dallin H. Oaks, Why Do We Serve? New Era, Mar. 1988, 5 > >Service is an imperative for those who worship Jesus Christ. > > > >And again, when he bringeth in the firstbegotten into the world, he > >saith, And let all the angels of God worship him. Heb 1:6 > >And after he had said these words, he said unto me: Look! And I looked, > >and I beheld the Son of God going forth among the children of men; and I > >saw many fall down at his feet and worship him. 1 Ne 11:24 > >And now behold, I say unto you that the right way is to believe in > >Christ, and deny him not; and Christ is the Holy One of Israel; wherefore > >ye must bow down before him, and worship him with all your might, mind, > >and strength, and your whole soul; and if ye do this ye shall in nowise > >be cast out. 2 Ne 25:29 > > I just love it when you cite sources, Paul. It adds so much more > credibility to your opinions. I commend the practice to all. --JWR > > ////// > /// ZION LIST CHARTER: Please read it at /// > /// http://www.zionsbest.com/charter.html /// > / > -- Marc A. Schindler Spruce Grove, Alberta, Canada -- Gateway to the Boreal Parkland Knowledge may give weight, but accomplishments give lustre, and many more people see than weigh. Lord Chesterfield Note: This communication represents the informal personal views of the author solely; its contents do not necessarily reflect those of the authors employer, nor those of any organization with which the author may be associated. // /// ZION LIST CHARTER: Please read it at /// /// http://www.zionsbest.com/charter.html /// / ==^^=== This email was sent to: archive@jab.org EASY UNSUBSCRIBE click here: http://topica.com/u/?aaP9AU.bWix1n.YXJjaGl2 Or send an email to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] T O P I C A -- Register now to manage your mail! http://www.topica.com/partner/tag02/register ==^^===
Re: [ZION] Article in "Science" on genetic diversity
l indicator if the patient tells the doctor he originally came from West Africa several centuries ago. Another example is benign prostate infection, which is more common amongst black males than amongst white males, age-adjusted [at least in the US blacks will get his out of proportion to their population. The condition is usually caused by Benign Hyperplastic Prostate (BHP, and just like the sisters need to do regular breast exams, and occasional pap smears, men 35 years on up should have an exam (which isn't particularly comfortable) for prostate enlargement. -- Marc A. Schindler Spruce Grove, Alberta, Canada -- Gateway to the Boreal Parkland Knowledge may give weight, but accomplishments give lustre, and many more people see than weigh. Lord Chesterfield Note: This communication represents the informal personal views of the author solely; its contents do not necessarily reflect those of the authors employer, nor those of any organization with which the author may be associated. // /// ZION LIST CHARTER: Please read it at /// /// http://www.zionsbest.com/charter.html /// / ==^^=== This email was sent to: archive@jab.org EASY UNSUBSCRIBE click here: http://topica.com/u/?aaP9AU.bWix1n.YXJjaGl2 Or send an email to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] T O P I C A -- Register now to manage your mail! http://www.topica.com/partner/tag02/register ==^^===
Re: [ZION] Worship Christ
Interesting -- I think you might have me there, at least partially, as I was unaware of the GBH quote. I suppose I should have defined the term more tightly and say that we don't *pray* to Jesus Christ. Paul Osborne wrote: > Paul Osborne favored us with: > >What do you mean we don't worship Christ? I worship Jesus Christ and so > >do the prophets of every dispensation. > > >>Perhaps it would be more accurate to say that we don't pray to Jesus > >>Christ. We pray to the Father in the name of Jesus Christ. Anyway, > it is > >>impossible to worship one member of the Godhead without worshipping all > > >>three. They are that "one." --JWR > > I agree with you on this John and submit the following to Marc which I > think shows that we must worship Christ as well as his Father and not > just in name only: > > They Spoke to Us, Friend, Dec. 1998, 15 > > President Gordon B. Hinckley: We believe in Christ. We worship Christ. > We take upon ourselves in solemn covenant His holy name. The Church to > which we belong carries His name. He is our Lord, our Savior, our > Redeemer through whom came the great Atonement with salvation and eternal > life. > > Robert E. Wells, Be a Friend, a Servant, a Son of the Savior, Ensign, > Nov. 1982, 69 > I said to my friend, Please allow me to explain that we definitely are > Christianswe do worship God the Father and His Son Jesus Christ > > Dallin H. Oaks, Why Do We Serve? New Era, Mar. 1988, 5 > Service is an imperative for those who worship Jesus Christ. > > And again, when he bringeth in the firstbegotten into the world, he > saith, And let all the angels of God worship him. Heb 1:6 > And after he had said these words, he said unto me: Look! And I looked, > and I beheld the Son of God going forth among the children of men; and I > saw many fall down at his feet and worship him. 1 Ne 11:24 > And now behold, I say unto you that the right way is to believe in > Christ, and deny him not; and Christ is the Holy One of Israel; wherefore > ye must bow down before him, and worship him with all your might, mind, > and strength, and your whole soul; and if ye do this ye shall in nowise > be cast out. 2 Ne 25:29 > Hosanna! Blessed be the name of the Most High God! And they did fall > down at the feet of Jesus, and did worship him. 3 Ne 11:17 > And they did all, both they who had been healed and they who were whole, > bow down at his feet, and did worship him; and as many as could come for > the multitude did kiss his feet, insomuch that they did bathe his feet > with their tears. 3 Ne 17:10 > Paul O > [EMAIL PROTECTED] > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] > > ////// > /// ZION LIST CHARTER: Please read it at /// > /// http://www.zionsbest.com/charter.html /// > / > -- Marc A. Schindler Spruce Grove, Alberta, Canada -- Gateway to the Boreal Parkland Knowledge may give weight, but accomplishments give lustre, and many more people see than weigh. Lord Chesterfield Note: This communication represents the informal personal views of the author solely; its contents do not necessarily reflect those of the authors employer, nor those of any organization with which the author may be associated. // /// ZION LIST CHARTER: Please read it at /// /// http://www.zionsbest.com/charter.html /// / ==^^=== This email was sent to: archive@jab.org EASY UNSUBSCRIBE click here: http://topica.com/u/?aaP9AU.bWix1n.YXJjaGl2 Or send an email to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] T O P I C A -- Register now to manage your mail! http://www.topica.com/partner/tag02/register ==^^===
Re: [ZION] Carob beans
That's pretty well my understanding, too, although I didn't know it might have originated with the Elbionites -- I thought it was during the Middle Ages when various Bibles mention it. But again, in the Greek New Testament the word for locust is "akpides," from which we also get the modern word "cricket," incidentally Jim Cobabe wrote: > Apparently an early Jewish/Christian sect who called themselves > Ebionites claimed to have originated from the pre-Christian Nazarite > discipline, and among other interesting things, argued that Jesus and > John the Baptist were vegetarians. Some believe the Locust/Carob > controversy might have started with them. I understand that some > communities of Jewish Essenes, such as those at Qumran, are also reputed > to have practiced strict vegetarianism. None of these stories are clear > and unambiguous enough to be very conclusive, nor do I think it matters > what John the Baptist ate, but it is certainly an entertaining bit of > triva. > > --- > Mij Ebaboc > > // > /// ZION LIST CHARTER: Please read it at /// > /// http://www.zionsbest.com/charter.html /// > ///// > -- Marc A. Schindler Spruce Grove, Alberta, Canada -- Gateway to the Boreal Parkland Knowledge may give weight, but accomplishments give lustre, and many more people see than weigh. Lord Chesterfield Note: This communication represents the informal personal views of the author solely; its contents do not necessarily reflect those of the authors employer, nor those of any organization with which the author may be associated. // /// ZION LIST CHARTER: Please read it at /// /// http://www.zionsbest.com/charter.html /// / ==^^=== This email was sent to: archive@jab.org EASY UNSUBSCRIBE click here: http://topica.com/u/?aaP9AU.bWix1n.YXJjaGl2 Or send an email to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] T O P I C A -- Register now to manage your mail! http://www.topica.com/partner/tag02/register ==^^===
Re: [ZION] Notice from Listowner
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[ZION] Merry Christmas
Absolutely silly. So perfect for the holiday season... [have your sound turned on] http://web.icq.com/shockwave/0,,4845,00.swf -- Marc A. Schindler Spruce Grove, Alberta, Canada -- Gateway to the Boreal Parkland Knowledge may give weight, but accomplishments give lustre, and many more people see than weigh. Lord Chesterfield Note: This communication represents the informal personal views of the author solely; its contents do not necessarily reflect those of the authors employer, nor those of any organization with which the author may be associated. // /// ZION LIST CHARTER: Please read it at /// /// http://www.zionsbest.com/charter.html /// / ==^^=== This email was sent to: archive@jab.org EASY UNSUBSCRIBE click here: http://topica.com/u/?aaP9AU.bWix1n.YXJjaGl2 Or send an email to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] T O P I C A -- Register now to manage your mail! http://www.topica.com/partner/tag02/register ==^^===
Re: [ZION] Worship Christ
Actually we worship *in the name of Jesus Christ," but we have been told to worship only the Father, and to address our prayers only to Him. Paul Osborne wrote: > Marc > >We have been told to worship God the Father. Period. Not even Jesus > Christ -- God >the Father. > > What do you mean we don't worship Christ? I worship Jesus Christ and so > do the prophets of every dispensation. > > Paul O > [EMAIL PROTECTED] > -- Marc A. Schindler Spruce Grove, Alberta, Canada -- Gateway to the Boreal Parkland Knowledge may give weight, but accomplishments give lustre, and many more people see than weigh. Lord Chesterfield Note: This communication represents the informal personal views of the author solely; its contents do not necessarily reflect those of the authors employer, nor those of any organization with which the author may be associated. // /// ZION LIST CHARTER: Please read it at /// /// http://www.zionsbest.com/charter.html /// / ==^^=== This email was sent to: archive@jab.org EASY UNSUBSCRIBE click here: http://topica.com/u/?aaP9AU.bWix1n.YXJjaGl2 Or send an email to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] T O P I C A -- Register now to manage your mail! http://www.topica.com/partner/tag02/register ==^^===
Re: [ZION] Natural Law
George Cobabe wrote: > You are absolutely right. However we are to worship God as the supreme > entity. How can we do that if He is subject to a higher force, and > therefore not the supreme entity. > A principle is not an entity. Let's revisit what Elder Joseph Fielding Smith said: "This is an age when faith and the power of God should be greatly increased, but to the contrary it is diminished and men boast in their own strength; yet we see every day of our lives, the greatest of miracles. The flying of the airplane, the voice on the radio, the picture on the screen and television. There are thousands of miracles performed today, wonders that would astound our grandfathers could they suddenly see them. These miracles are as great as turning water into wine, raising the dead or anything else. A miracle is not, as many believe, the setting aside or overruling natural laws. Every miracle performed in Biblical days or now, is done on natural principles and in obedience to natural law. The healing of the sick, the raising of the dead, giving eyesight to the blind, whatever it may be that is done by the power of God, is in accordance with natural law. Because we do not understand how it is done, does not argue for the impossibility of it. Our Father in heaven knows many laws that are hidden from us. Man today has learned of many laws that our grandfathers did not understand. It is small business for the critics to condemn the miracles in scriptures as though all the laws of God have been revealed, and there could be no powers which they do not understand." (M:HO&D) > > That is my point. That there is no higher entity, not even law. > > I don't know what you mean concerning the Romans, but to say that there is a > higher power, even law, than God is an inconsistency in the doctrine of > those that believe such a thing. IMNSHO > > George > > - Original Message - > From: "Marc A. Schindler" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> > To: <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> > Sent: Thursday, December 19, 2002 11:48 AM > Subject: Re: [ZION] Natural Law > > I'm afraid I don't see how it follows that we should worship the law. We > have been > told to worship God the Father. Period. Not even Jesus Christ -- God the > Father. > Worship is a person-to-person interaction as we understand it. It is the > Romans > who have to deal with the inherent inconsistencies in their theology. > > George Cobabe wrote: > > > Furthermore, if Natural Law is the great constant and above God, then it > is > > the law we should worship. If we choose to do so it is then we become > more > > like Protestants and Catholics, in that our object of worship becomes > > something without form, no body, parts, or passions. The Law can fill the > > universe and yet dwell in our hearts. We become more like Jews who know > > little, or nothing, of God, yet can produce volumes and volumes on the > > smallest point of law and behavior. > > > > Those who argue there is a Law about our God need to examine what that > > belief tells them of their priorities and what they truly worship. > > > > I know that they can produce all kinds of smart people who agree with > them, > > so I recognize that the answer may not be as simple as I suggest. Forgive > > me of my indiscretion if my words give offense. > > > > George > > > > - Original Message - > > From: "Jim Cobabe" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> > > To: <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> > > Sent: Wednesday, December 18, 2002 11:31 PM > > Subject: RE: [ZION] Natural Law > > > > > > > > Another interesting reference to this question-- > > > > > > God is the author of law, not its creation or its servant. All light and > > > all law emanate from him (see D&C 88:13). Indeed, "all kingdoms have a > > > law given; and there are many kingdoms; for there is no space in the > > > which there is no kingdom; and there is no kingdom in which there is no > > > space, either a greater or a lesser kingdom. And unto every kingdom is > > > given a law; and unto every law there are certain bounds also and > > > conditions" (D&C 88:36-38). Of God the revelation states, "He > > > comprehendeth all things, and all things are before him, and all things > > > are round about him; and he is above all things, and in all things, and > > > is through all things, and is round about all things; and all things are > > > by him, and of him, even God, forever and ever" (D&C 88:41). > > > > > > Joseph Smith asked, "Can we suppose that He [God] has a kingdom without > > > laws
[ZION] Iraq
The Blob and Snail has a good section today -- a backgrounder on the whole Iraqi inspections situation: http://www.theglobeandmail.com/backgrounder/iraq/stories/faq.html -- Marc A. Schindler Spruce Grove, Alberta, Canada -- Gateway to the Boreal Parkland Knowledge may give weight, but accomplishments give lustre, and many more people see than weigh. Lord Chesterfield Note: This communication represents the informal personal views of the author solely; its contents do not necessarily reflect those of the authors employer, nor those of any organization with which the author may be associated. // /// ZION LIST CHARTER: Please read it at /// /// http://www.zionsbest.com/charter.html /// / ==^^=== This email was sent to: archive@jab.org EASY UNSUBSCRIBE click here: http://topica.com/u/?aaP9AU.bWix1n.YXJjaGl2 Or send an email to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] T O P I C A -- Register now to manage your mail! http://www.topica.com/partner/tag02/register ==^^===
[ZION] Tom Murphy
I had forwarded the latest FAIR newsletter (www.fairlds.org if you're interested, and click on publications for the latest issue. There's a Christmas message there, too, by someone y'all might know) to my Dad, amongst others, with a foreword specifically about the Tom Murphy issue. Here's his response, as well as my counter-response: Dad: The deviousness of this reminds me a lot of the book that presently got elevated to my bathroom bookshelf, titled: "Restoring the Ancient Church," by Barry Robert Bickmore, published by FAIR. You gave it to me for my birthday in 2000. It describes how the Gifts were gradually lost during the first couple centuries, causing Christianity to break up into many disagreeing factors, but primarily Jewish, Gnostic and Catholic faiths. Being stripped of the Holy Ghost and other Gifts, the Gnostics tried to "reason" their way to acceptance, based a lot on the Greek methods used by many of the Greek philosophers. It is interesting to note that Murphy, like so many of his kind, having rebelled against the Truth, attempts similar, and just as erroneous "logic" to justify his opinion. My point is that those who *genuinely* seek the truth will find it, just like you and I have. As for those who search for other than the truth, well, even if you removed every type of "Murphy" from existence, they still won't accept the truth simply because they don't *want* to -- they're rebellious! This doesn't mean we shouldn't expose these Murphys because, if we didn't, how would the truth seekers find the Spark, opening the door for the Holy Ghost to testify of the truth. Son: I think it was Elder Boyd K. Packer who once referred to this as "tripping over one's own professionalism." Ironically in Murphy's case, he's a wannabe "Grey Owl", meaning a European who is more native than the natives, but in the process he's co-opting their history using the tools of European science -- in this case, anthropology. That's exactly what he accuses the Church of, so it's very ironic. P.S. Non-Canadians might not get the Grey Owl reference, so I'll explain that he was an Englishman who moved to Canada sometime in the early part of the 20th century and passed himself off as an Ojibway Indian. He immersed himself so deeply in their culture that very few knew of his "deception," except that it was not meant at all in a malignant way. His secret was only revealed by a trusted friend after his death. Details for the death certificate and all that, you know. One finds this in Europeans sometimes -- I've seen it in Germans myself, in fact, and it's one of the reasons we get so many German tourists in Alberta (besides the skiing). -- Marc A. Schindler Spruce Grove, Alberta, Canada -- Gateway to the Boreal Parkland Knowledge may give weight, but accomplishments give lustre, and many more people see than weigh. Lord Chesterfield Note: This communication represents the informal personal views of the author solely; its contents do not necessarily reflect those of the authors employer, nor those of any organization with which the author may be associated. // /// ZION LIST CHARTER: Please read it at /// /// http://www.zionsbest.com/charter.html /// / ==^^=== This email was sent to: archive@jab.org EASY UNSUBSCRIBE click here: http://topica.com/u/?aaP9AU.bWix1n.YXJjaGl2 Or send an email to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] T O P I C A -- Register now to manage your mail! http://www.topica.com/partner/tag02/register ==^^===
Re: [ZION] Carob beans
This is a common tradition (the term "carob" was eating away at the back of my head, trying to get something out, and when Mij mentioned "St. John's Bread," I finally remembered that there is a tradition that what John the Baptist ate in the desert was locust beans, not locusts. Locust bean is another word for carob.) Unfortunately this is an issue only in modern European languages, not in the original Greek, which clearly indicates that it was a great big bowl of greasy grimylocust guts (and I forgot my spoon). The reason for the tradition, besides the yuck factor is that many people assumed insects aren't kosher. And most of them aren't, but one verse in Leviticus (iirc, 11:20-21) explicitly gives an exception for four varieties of locusts. Which is kinda practical, when you think about it. I mean, they have the chutzpah to eat all your grain, so why should you be forbidden to doing unto them what they've tried to do unto you, so to chirp? "Elmer L. Fairbank" wrote: > At 05:30 12/19/2002 +, Gib Mij clarifies in his inimitable manner: > >Carob is a unique substance that has an appearance similar to cocoa. It > >comes from the Ceratonia siliqua, an evergreen tree native to the > >Eastern Mediterranean area. This relatively wild tree, which grows up to > >50 feet tall, bears fruit at the age of six to eight years with a > >greater abundance of fruit every other year. The average annual yield > >per tree is 200-250 lbs. of fruit. Carob, or St. John's Bread, as it is > >commonly known, is a large (4-12 inch long) dried, bean-like pod. Pods > >are harvested from September to November. Inside the carob pods are tiny > >beans which are used to make locust bean gum, a stabilizer and thickener > >in foods. The carob pods themselves are roasted and ground into carob > >powder. Carob powder can be used to replace cocoa at levels from 25-50%. > >While carob performs like cocoa, it differs in sugar and fat content. > >Cocoa may contain up to 23% fat and 5% sugar while carob has .7% fat and > >a natural sugar content of 42-48%. Nutritionally, carob has none of the > >allergy-producing antibodies or the caffeine stimulant theobromine found > >in the cocoa bean. Carob contains as much vitamin B1 as asparagus or > >strawberries, the same amount of niacin as lima beans, lentils or peas > >and more vitamin A than eggplant, asparagus and beets. It is also high > >in vitamin B2, calcium, magnesium and iron. In addition to being a > >delicious and healthful foodstuff, carob powder is used as a tobacco > >flavoring and in the production of some pharmaceuticals. > > > >Matthew 3:1-6 (KJV) In those days came John the Baptist, preaching in > >the wilderness of Judaea, And saying, Repent ye: for the kingdom of > >heaven is at hand. For this is he that was spoken of by the prophet > >Esaias, saying, The voice of one crying in the wilderness, Prepare ye > >the way of the Lord, make his paths straight. And the same John had his > >raiment of camel's hair, and a leathern girdle about his loins; and his > >meat was locusts and wild honey. Then went out to him Jerusalem, and all > >Judaea, and all the region round about Jordan, And were baptized of him > >in Jordan, confessing their sins. > > Are you saying that John ate carobs instead of fat little insects? > > Till the confused > > ////// > /// ZION LIST CHARTER: Please read it at /// > /// http://www.zionsbest.com/charter.html /// > / > -- Marc A. Schindler Spruce Grove, Alberta, Canada -- Gateway to the Boreal Parkland Knowledge may give weight, but accomplishments give lustre, and many more people see than weigh. Lord Chesterfield Note: This communication represents the informal personal views of the author solely; its contents do not necessarily reflect those of the authors employer, nor those of any organization with which the author may be associated. // /// ZION LIST CHARTER: Please read it at /// /// http://www.zionsbest.com/charter.html /// / ==^^=== This email was sent to: archive@jab.org EASY UNSUBSCRIBE click here: http://topica.com/u/?aaP9AU.bWix1n.YXJjaGl2 Or send an email to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] T O P I C A -- Register now to manage your mail! http://www.topica.com/partner/tag02/register ==^^===
[ZION] Trolling on exmormon.org
I have no intention of engaging in dialogue on exmormon.com, I just wanna have fun. So here's a post I just made on Steve Benson's thread about Nephi's head or some silly thing... [oh, for those who may not know, "cricket" made a prophecy that the "Morg," as they like to call the Church, will postpone discipline against Tom Murphy indefinitely because of the publicity. He also thanked Alan Wyatt who lifted the rock off the bugs who put Murphy up to to a level he couldn't have squiggled to on his own, for the free publicity. I was tempted to point out that pill bugs don't like light for very long. DSM-IV is the current guide that psychiatrists use to classify mental illness. Grey Owl, as I explained in a previous post, was an Englishman who masqueraded quite successfully as a Canadian First Nations person for most of his adult life, to the point where I think he sincerely believed he was what he portrayed. This is a nasty but subtle allusion to the many threads on exmormon.org (or Xorg, or "formerly known as Morgue" as I call it) regarding psychiatric ailments many of the posters have, some of which they blame on the Church.] = Two points. First of all, "cricket," every anti worth their salt knows that any prognostication (as opposed to a proper prophecy) has to be backed up by a timeframe or it's useless. Perhaps you haven't shed as much of Mormonism as you had, er, hoped? Second, speaking of prognostications, I'm not going to make any, but I have heard a rumour that Grey Owl Syndrome is going to become part of DSM-V. If you don't know what Grey Owl Syndrome is you know squat about First Nations anthropology, and if you don't know what DSM-V is you don't know squat about psychiatry. Marc A. Schindler Up in the clear air in Canuckistan. -- Marc A. Schindler Spruce Grove, Alberta, Canada -- Gateway to the Boreal Parkland Knowledge may give weight, but accomplishments give lustre, and many more people see than weigh. Lord Chesterfield Note: This communication represents the informal personal views of the author solely; its contents do not necessarily reflect those of the authors employer, nor those of any organization with which the author may be associated. // /// ZION LIST CHARTER: Please read it at /// /// http://www.zionsbest.com/charter.html /// / ==^^=== This email was sent to: archive@jab.org EASY UNSUBSCRIBE click here: http://topica.com/u/?aaP9AU.bWix1n.YXJjaGl2 Or send an email to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] T O P I C A -- Register now to manage your mail! http://www.topica.com/partner/tag02/register ==^^===
Re: [ZION] Curiosity About Alma 1:21
It's hard to visualize something that transcends our physical experience, and that's the problem here. God's "time" has also been likened to "one eternal round," and ANE peoples tended to think of time in cyclical form, rather than as a one-way arrow like we do today. Jon Spencer wrote: > Paul Osborne wrote: > > > Yep, I agree with John. The laws of the universe were not invented but > > have always been. There never was a first Father... > > That makes about as much sense as our being here does. Phrases like "never > was" and even perhaps "first" do not apply in the eternity, where one can > see the end from the beginning. I don't think (should I stop here? :-) that > we have the intellectual experience, or perhaps even the capacity, in this > estate to even being to comprehend the succession of events that led to OUR > Heavenly Father going through his own progression. > > On there other hand, there is some sort of event progression, one event > prior to another, since (apparently) our Heavenly Father existed "prior" > (whatever that means in the eternities) to us. > > This of course begs the question of where all this stuff we call home came > from. Unfortunately, if I think too long about it, I start to disappear. > So I'll stop now. My wife and kids (hopefully) would miss me. > > Jo (Oh no! I have started to disappear again!) > > // > /// ZION LIST CHARTER: Please read it at /// > /// http://www.zionsbest.com/charter.html /// > / > -- Marc A. Schindler Spruce Grove, Alberta, Canada -- Gateway to the Boreal Parkland Knowledge may give weight, but accomplishments give lustre, and many more people see than weigh. Lord Chesterfield Note: This communication represents the informal personal views of the author solely; its contents do not necessarily reflect those of the authors employer, nor those of any organization with which the author may be associated. // /// ZION LIST CHARTER: Please read it at /// /// http://www.zionsbest.com/charter.html /// / ==^^=== This email was sent to: archive@jab.org EASY UNSUBSCRIBE click here: http://topica.com/u/?aaP9AU.bWix1n.YXJjaGl2 Or send an email to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] T O P I C A -- Register now to manage your mail! http://www.topica.com/partner/tag02/register ==^^===
[ZION] "An Alice in Wonderland Defence"
Hilarious story on "As It Happens" this evening (CBC Radio One). A university in Missouri (I didn't catch the name of which one) has been accused by a judge, who ruled against them in a tort case, as "putting up an Alice in Wonderland defence where words mean only what I say they mean." The state seems to have a law that limits the cost of tuition at state universities, and this particular university got around that by charging additional "education fees." A group of students sued. The judge reached for his dictionary, and read, "Tuition. Noun. Education fee." Case closed. Sometimes the righteous win. Speaking of the CBC, I just heard that the plaintiff in the Supreme Court decision which came down 8-1 on the side of marriage (one justice said, "if you wanted to be treated as a married couple, you should've gotten married.") was named Mary Walsh and is from Halifax. One of the 4 stars of "This Hour Has 22 Minutes," a very irreverent and very funny comedy weekly "news" program on CBC TV is named Mary Walsh (she occasionally dresses up in a valkyrie costume and accosts poor politicians as "Marg the Princess Warrior" on camera), and the show is produced in Halifax. I don't know if this is *that* Mary Walsh or not. Another PS; according to the lawyer, Mary Walsh and er ex-common law partner happen to have settled out-of-court on a 50-50 split, so I'm confused as to why the case was even heard by the Supreme Court in the first place. Also, the lawyer worked for Legal Aid, and I'm sure Mary Walsh (the celeb) can afford a lawyer on her own, so it's probably not the same one. Ah well, those Maritimers -- they're all related, like Ozark cousins ;-) [actually that's not far from the truth. I remember the last time I visited Seal Island, ancestral home of my mother's family, off the coast of Nova Scotia. It's 3 hours by lobster boat as there's no commercial service and only emergency coast guard service, and the 3 crewmen introduced themselves. They were all surnamed Kenney, were cousins of various degrees to each other, and to my Mom, but had never met my Mom before. I'm also related to any Nickerson, Crowell or Hamilton in Shelburne Co., N.S. -- Marc A. Schindler Spruce Grove, Alberta, Canada -- Gateway to the Boreal Parkland Knowledge may give weight, but accomplishments give lustre, and many more people see than weigh. Lord Chesterfield Note: This communication represents the informal personal views of the author solely; its contents do not necessarily reflect those of the authors employer, nor those of any organization with which the author may be associated. // /// ZION LIST CHARTER: Please read it at /// /// http://www.zionsbest.com/charter.html /// / ==^^=== This email was sent to: archive@jab.org EASY UNSUBSCRIBE click here: http://topica.com/u/?aaP9AU.bWix1n.YXJjaGl2 Or send an email to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] T O P I C A -- Register now to manage your mail! http://www.topica.com/partner/tag02/register ==^^===
[ZION] Article in "Science" on genetic diversity
Coincidence that this appeared in today's issue of "Science," one of the two best-known and most prestigious general science journals in the anglophone world (Rosenberg, et. al. Science:298, 20/12/2002:2381). The article is called "Genetic Structure of Human Populations" by a multinational team from the US, Russia and France. I have the full article (as well as the editorial introduction) but here's the abstract: "We studied human population structure using genotypes at 377 autosomal microstallite loci in 1056 individuals from 52 populations. Within-population differences among individuals account for 93 to 95% of genetic variation; differences among major groups constitute only 3 to 5%. Nevertheless, without using prior information about the origins of individuals, we identified six main genetic clusters, five of which correspond to major geographic regions, and subsclusters that often correspond to individual populations. General agreement of genetic and predefined populations suggests that self-reported ancestry can facilitate assessments of epidemiological risks but does not obviate the need to use genetic information in genetic associations studies." I'm the first to admit I'm not a geneticist, and much of this article is over my head. It *seems* to be saying that because there is far more genetic variation within a given population than there is between populations, that the use of genetics for the study of human migratory patterns is only of very weak usefulness. That is, within a given area, you could often separate populations, but if you tried to compare populations from one area to populations in another area, there were rarely any correlations. I could see no correlation between East Asian and American populations, for instance. But in any case, the difference between a Colombian sample and a Mayan sample within the greater American population was greater than differences between the whole American population and the East Asian populations (which likewise showed great various between individual groups within the population as a whole). Any thoughts? -- Marc A. Schindler Spruce Grove, Alberta, Canada -- Gateway to the Boreal Parkland Knowledge may give weight, but accomplishments give lustre, and many more people see than weigh. Lord Chesterfield Note: This communication represents the informal personal views of the author solely; its contents do not necessarily reflect those of the authors employer, nor those of any organization with which the author may be associated. // /// ZION LIST CHARTER: Please read it at /// /// http://www.zionsbest.com/charter.html /// / ==^^=== This email was sent to: archive@jab.org EASY UNSUBSCRIBE click here: http://topica.com/u/?aaP9AU.bWix1n.YXJjaGl2 Or send an email to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] T O P I C A -- Register now to manage your mail! http://www.topica.com/partner/tag02/register ==^^===
[ZION] trolling in the Xorg
This is getting addictive. Someone asked if Randy Bachman is still an active LDS. They thought his Christmas takeoff of Takin' Care of Business was shallow. Of course, it's a no-win situation -- if he's inactive, that's good, if he's active, then he's shallow. My response: == Just FYI, both Randy Bachman, and his son, Tal, are active LDS. Tal lives in Utah with his mother (ex-wife of Randy), and Randy splits his time between a house in Bellingham WA (basically a suburb of Vancouver BC as much as it is an exurb of Seattle WA) and his home town of Winnipeg MB (my birthplace, too, as it happens). In his latest interview, which iirc was in the [Toronto] Globe and Mail, as well as the Southam chain (our major national chain of broadsheet papers) given as part of a Guess Who revival tour of Canada, he indicated that he is still an active LDS. So I'm afraid that in the Morgue (aka the Xorg) that makes him shallow. Sorry. Marc Schindler In the clear air of Canuckistan -- Marc A. Schindler Spruce Grove, Alberta, Canada -- Gateway to the Boreal Parkland Knowledge may give weight, but accomplishments give lustre, and many more people see than weigh. Lord Chesterfield Note: This communication represents the informal personal views of the author solely; its contents do not necessarily reflect those of the authors employer, nor those of any organization with which the author may be associated. // /// ZION LIST CHARTER: Please read it at /// /// http://www.zionsbest.com/charter.html /// / ==^^=== This email was sent to: archive@jab.org EASY UNSUBSCRIBE click here: http://topica.com/u/?aaP9AU.bWix1n.YXJjaGl2 Or send an email to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] T O P I C A -- Register now to manage your mail! http://www.topica.com/partner/tag02/register ==^^===
[ZION] Iraq
Larry, here's another quote from you, this time from The Economist (14/12/02). It's also pretty clear and unequivocal in its language. This is from an article on p. 40, called "Lethal poker": "This partly explains why America, controversially, arranged for the circulating copy of the dossier [that Iraq prepared] (the other copy stays with the UN monitoring mission) to be taken straight to Washington rather than distributed to all 15 Security Council members. The American authorities then copied the documents for the other four permanent members, who agreed that the ten rotating members of the council would receive expurgated versions." Pretty clear: the US abrogated to itself the right to look at the documents first, even before the other 4 permanent members of the Security Council, let alone the full SC. You can refuse to discuss it if you wish, but I don't see how you can insist on being right in face of such clear facts. -- Marc A. Schindler Spruce Grove, Alberta, Canada -- Gateway to the Boreal Parkland Knowledge may give weight, but accomplishments give lustre, and many more people see than weigh. Lord Chesterfield Note: This communication represents the informal personal views of the author solely; its contents do not necessarily reflect those of the authors employer, nor those of any organization with which the author may be associated. // /// ZION LIST CHARTER: Please read it at /// /// http://www.zionsbest.com/charter.html /// / ==^^=== This email was sent to: archive@jab.org EASY UNSUBSCRIBE click here: http://topica.com/u/?aaP9AU.bWix1n.YXJjaGl2 Or send an email to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] T O P I C A -- Register now to manage your mail! http://www.topica.com/partner/tag02/register ==^^===
Re: [ZION] "Dr" Red Green was right all along
Nobody seems to know for sure, but it's believed that when you rip the duct tape
off (ouch!) it brings with it the viruses that are believed to be causing the wart
in the first place. I'm sure it was one of these accidental things that happen in
medical research sometimes, and get written up in "Stitches," a monthly "journal"
of the Canadian Medical Association which is a humour magazine for doctors.
One night in ER.
Male patient limps in with a very pained look on his face.
Nurse: "What seems to be the matter?"
Patient: "Well, I, er, um, it's kinda hard to explain. Could I just explain it to
a doctor?"
Nurse: "Sure. Dr. Smith is on call. She'll see you shortly."
Patient: "Oh, man. Don't you have any other doctors?"
Valerie Nielsen Williams wrote:
> OK--my question--how DOES the duct tape work on a wart?
>
> val
>
> On Thu, 19 Dec 2002 21:20:14 + Chet <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> writes:
> > Marc A. Schindler wrote:
> > > Duct tape really is good for you...
> > >
> > >
> >
> http://www.nationalpost.com/home/story.html?id={C5BC794A-4AC7-4177-93A3-3
> 1E9EA95D88E}
> > >
> >
> > The link has changed to
> >
> http://www.nationalpost.com/search/site/story.asp?id=C5BC794A-4AC7-4177-9
> 3A3-31E9EA95D88E
> >
> >
> > It may have changed again by now.
> >
> >
> > *jeep!
> > --Chet
> > "Start by doing what's necessary, then what's possible, and suddenly
> > you
> > are doing the impossible."
> .:*~*:._.:*~*:._.:*~*:._.:*~*:._.:*~*:._.:*~*:._.:*~*:._.:*~*:.
> «¤»¥«¤»§«¤»¥«¤»§«¤»¥«¤»§«¤»¥«¤»§«¤»¥«¤»§«¤»¥«¤
>
>
> Sign Up for Juno Platinum Internet Access Today
> Only $9.95 per month!
> Visit www.juno.com
>
> //
> /// ZION LIST CHARTER: Please read it at ///
> /// http://www.zionsbest.com/charter.html ///
> /
>
--
Marc A. Schindler
Spruce Grove, Alberta, Canada -- Gateway to the Boreal Parkland
Knowledge may give weight, but accomplishments give lustre, and many more people
see than weigh. Lord Chesterfield
Note: This communication represents the informal personal views of the author
solely; its contents do not necessarily reflect those of the authors employer,
nor those of any organization with which the author may be associated.
//
/// ZION LIST CHARTER: Please read it at ///
/// http://www.zionsbest.com/charter.html ///
/
==^^===
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==^^===
[ZION] The Tom Murphy Affair (FAIR Journal, December 2002)
I don't know how many of you subscribe to FAIR's free internet monthly newsletter, or even care about the issues it addresses, but here's their December 2002 newsletter. There's a link in there to an excellent article that addresses the Tom Murphy affair. Mr. Murphy has been portrayed as an intellectual whose membership is in danger because of what he has written as a scholar. The facts are quite different; an obscure academic (he teaches at a community college in a department with only one full-time member -- himself) his work was actually commissioned by an anti-Mormon group for publication in one of their periodicals, he was paid for this, and he also misrepresents LDS doctrine. The press has portrayed him as a "devout Mormon" when in fact he disengaged from Church activity in 1993 -- by his own admission. FAIR is the Foundation for Apologetics Information and Research, an unofficial group that publishes material to counter anti-Mormon claims. It has no connection to the Church and this should be kept in mind. -- Marc A. Schindler Spruce Grove, Alberta, Canada -- Gateway to the Boreal Parkland Knowledge may give weight, but accomplishments give lustre, and many more people see than weigh. Lord Chesterfield Note: This communication represents the informal personal views of the author solely; its contents do not necessarily reflect those of the authors employer, nor those of any organization with which the author may be associated. -- [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] // /// ZION LIST CHARTER: Please read it at /// /// http://www.zionsbest.com/charter.html /// / ==^^=== This email was sent to: archive@jab.org EASY UNSUBSCRIBE click here: http://topica.com/u/?aaP9AU.bWix1n.YXJjaGl2 Or send an email to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] T O P I C A -- Register now to manage your mail! http://www.topica.com/partner/tag02/register ==^^===
[ZION] Warning: this post is full of tangents,irrelevancies and sidetracking.
To start, here's a letter in today's Glock 'n' Spiel (Globe and Mail). Try to ignore the writer's barbed reference to "Americans." It's not only part of the cultural wallpaper here, but he's exaggerating to make a point, and I think the point's worth the exaggeration. Not so bad after all By RICHARD GRIFFITH Thursday, December 19, 2002 Page A22 Ravenna, Ont. -- The controversy generated by David Ahenakew reminded me that our Jewish citizens are often among our most loving and generous. In both Canada and the United States, many charitable foundations owe their existence to Jewish founders and benefactors. Moreover, how many of our museums, galleries, arts councils and theatres could survive as well as they do without their legions of Jewish patrons? So, what would happen if the Jews took over the world? We know what happens when the world is run by, let's see, the Egyptians, Persians, Greeks, Romans, Ottoman Turks, Spaniards, French, British, Germans, Russians and, Jehovah save us all, the Americans. If it's ever the Jews' turn, we'll be surrounded by music, art, humour, literature and great conversation. === Now the tangents, irrelevancies and sidetrackings David Ahenakew (pronounced ah-HEN-uh-cue) is a former National Chief of the Assembly of First Nations, the most senior elected First Nations official in Canada. Earlier this week he went on what honestly sounded like a drunken anti-Semitic tirade in an on-the-record interview with a Saskatoon TV reporter. The only part I can quote without violating the list's charter (in letter or in spirit) is that "Hitler had the right idea when he fried six million Jews." It's shocked everyone, of course, and there's even talk of revoking his membership in the Order of Canada (see http://www.gg.ca/honours/order_e.asp for the neat-o medals the three levels of OoC members get to wear. I've only met one OoC member that I know of, and that was former New Brunswick premier Frank McKenna, with whom I helped arrange a meeting with my minister at the last Microsoft World Leaders Conference the time Stephen and I met in person). Anyway, Ahenakew's only position now had been as head of the "senate" of the Saskatchewan federation of First Nations, which is an honorary position (indeed, any reference to "senate" in Canada, including THE senate*, has a connotation of an old folks' home for retired politicos of various kinds) and he has announced his resignation. Current National Chief is a Quebec Ojibway [iirc; maybe he's Cree] named Matthew Coon Come**, has, of course, distanced the Assembly from Mr. Ahenakew's comments in no uncertain way. Ahenakew's tirade was so virulent there have been serious doubts raised concerning his sanity. * We also call the Senate in Parliament "the red chamber." That's because it has a red carpet, representing the background of nobility, aristocracy and royalty that the House of Lords has in Britain. There has been endless talk of reforming it, but governments are always reluctant to do so because being appointed a Senator is a convenient way to force an inconvenient politician into "early retirement" or to reward bagmen and the like. The House of Commons is sometimes called "the green chamber" because it has a green carpet, and this is symbolic, too: of the meadow of Runnymede where the Magna Carta was signed by King John. When a government in a Westminster-style country like Canada, Britain or Australia give what you guys would call a State of the Union address, it's called the Speech from the Throne, and it's composed by the government of the day, but it's read by the Head of State. This usually means the Governor-General, but if the Queen's in town, she reads it, as she's still symbolically the Head of State of most commonwealth countries (a constitutional symbolism only). And they still use the "royal we." I can still remember Elizabeth II reading a speech from the throne once, and using "Our government has pledged to..." and so on. The Head of State isn't normally allowed into the House of Commons (again, just a symbolism) so when the SftT is to be read, the Gentleman Usher of the Black Rod goes to the Senate and raps on the door with the mace, and invites him/her to accompany him to the Green Chamber as his guest. Thereupon follows the "peers" which in Canada just means Senators and justices of the Supreme Court, iirc (but in Britain it also includes several Anglican bishops as Britain is still nominally an officially Anglican country). ** That's Mister Coon Come to you, bud. And yes, that's his real name. Quite photogenic, he was active in forcing the Quebec government to back down on some of its plans to flood vast areas of the James Bay and Hudsons Bay drai
[ZION] Where do old hippies go?
I thought this one was good for a chuckle... http://www.globeandmail.ca/series/cartoon/19thuedcar.html -- Marc A. Schindler Spruce Grove, Alberta, Canada -- Gateway to the Boreal Parkland Knowledge may give weight, but accomplishments give lustre, and many more people see than weigh. Lord Chesterfield Note: This communication represents the informal personal views of the author solely; its contents do not necessarily reflect those of the authors employer, nor those of any organization with which the author may be associated. // /// ZION LIST CHARTER: Please read it at /// /// http://www.zionsbest.com/charter.html /// / ==^^=== This email was sent to: archive@jab.org EASY UNSUBSCRIBE click here: http://topica.com/u/?aaP9AU.bWix1n.YXJjaGl2 Or send an email to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] T O P I C A -- Register now to manage your mail! http://www.topica.com/partner/tag02/register ==^^===
[ZION] One small step for marriage
Canada's Supreme Court has ruled that disposition of property after a break-up of a common-law relationship is not subject to the same laws regarding marriage, therefore implying a difference in law. A small step, a small piece of good news. <<http://www.globeandmail.ca/servlet/ArticleNews/front/RTGAM/20021219/wcomm1219/Front/homeBN/breakingnews>> -- Marc A. Schindler Spruce Grove, Alberta, Canada -- Gateway to the Boreal Parkland Knowledge may give weight, but accomplishments give lustre, and many more people see than weigh. Lord Chesterfield Note: This communication represents the informal personal views of the author solely; its contents do not necessarily reflect those of the authors employer, nor those of any organization with which the author may be associated. // /// ZION LIST CHARTER: Please read it at /// /// http://www.zionsbest.com/charter.html /// / ==^^=== This email was sent to: archive@jab.org EASY UNSUBSCRIBE click here: http://topica.com/u/?aaP9AU.bWix1n.YXJjaGl2 Or send an email to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] T O P I C A -- Register now to manage your mail! http://www.topica.com/partner/tag02/register ==^^===
[ZION] The Gospel and National Security
I just heard something from Steve Hildreth, a defence analyst with the US federal government, that I thought I should pass on in case any are interested. BYU is sponsoring a symposium in Washington in the Spring of '03 on "The Gospel and National Security." Steve wrote an article critical of the Gulf War (among other things) for BYU Studies about the same time I wrote a similar personal essay for Dialogue which was also anti-war. He says his paper will be the lead-off paper in this conference. Don't know anything else about it, but if anyone's interested I assume they could find details on BYU's website. Incidentally, both of our articles are on my website (I've belatedly received his permission to post his): Mine's called "Is There Such a Thing as a 'Moral War'?": http://www.members.shaw.ca/mschindler/D/moral_war.htm Steve's is called "Perspective on the 'First Presidency Statement on the MX Missile." http://www.members.shaw.ca/mschindler/D/Hildreth.htm -- Marc A. Schindler Spruce Grove, Alberta, Canada -- Gateway to the Boreal Parkland Knowledge may give weight, but accomplishments give lustre, and many more people see than weigh. Lord Chesterfield Note: This communication represents the informal personal views of the author solely; its contents do not necessarily reflect those of the authors employer, nor those of any organization with which the author may be associated. // /// ZION LIST CHARTER: Please read it at /// /// http://www.zionsbest.com/charter.html /// / ==^^=== This email was sent to: archive@jab.org EASY UNSUBSCRIBE click here: http://topica.com/u/?aaP9AU.bWix1n.YXJjaGl2 Or send an email to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] T O P I C A -- Register now to manage your mail! http://www.topica.com/partner/tag02/register ==^^===
Re: [ZION] Microsoft interview questions
I knew it was familiar for some reason, although I can't say I'd ever heard of it being used in place of or with cocoa (but it does explain one thing I remember: cans labelled "Karob" in German supermarkets next to the coffee and tea). And I'm sorry, I've already forgotten who it was who posted the excellent lttle article on carobs yesterday, because I wanted to add a comment to that. Its other names are "locust bean" and "St. John's Bread" in the belief that when it said in the NT that John the Baptist ate honey and locust, modern translators couldn't see him actually eating insects. Besides the yuck factor, they thought it wasn't kosher. However, locusts are indeed kosher, it turns out, (Leviticus 11:20-21) and the Greek word in the NT refers quite clearly to an insect. So he really did eat bugs. "Elmer L. Fairbank" wrote: > At 19:45 12/18/2002 -0700, M Marc wrote: > >There is a carob bean, actually, and I know it's grown in tropical > >climates, but > >that's about all I know about it. I'm not sure what they do with it, except > >perhaps use its oil (like canola, linseed or safflower). > > Haven't you ever had carob brownies? It's often used around here as a > cocoa substitute. Dang, lad, you need to make a pilgrimage to Ithaca. > > Till > > // > /// ZION LIST CHARTER: Please read it at /// > /// http://www.zionsbest.com/charter.html /// > / > -- Marc A. Schindler Spruce Grove, Alberta, Canada -- Gateway to the Boreal Parkland Knowledge may give weight, but accomplishments give lustre, and many more people see than weigh. Lord Chesterfield Note: This communication represents the informal personal views of the author solely; its contents do not necessarily reflect those of the authors employer, nor those of any organization with which the author may be associated. // /// ZION LIST CHARTER: Please read it at /// /// http://www.zionsbest.com/charter.html /// / ==^^=== This email was sent to: archive@jab.org EASY UNSUBSCRIBE click here: http://topica.com/u/?aaP9AU.bWix1n.YXJjaGl2 Or send an email to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] T O P I C A -- Register now to manage your mail! http://www.topica.com/partner/tag02/register ==^^===
Re: [ZION] The latest from Iraq
Alright. Let's start over. What exactly in the US State Dept. press release leads you to a conclusion other than the US got the documents first, when that is explicitly pointed out in the government's own press briefing? If you feel I've ignored a question you've raised, please remind me what it was. Larry Jackson wrote: > Marc Schindler: > > I quoted you the exact wording that made my point. I do not > need to "spin" anything. Here it is again, since you keep > deleting it in your responses, so please either do me the > courtesy of addressing the issue, or admit either apathy > (which is fine if you're tired of discussing it) or error: > > ___ > > And I quoted you the exact wording that made my point. Since > you keep ignoring it in your responses, please either do me > the courtesy of addressing the issue, or admit either apathy > (which is fine if you're tired of ignoring it) or error. > > You see, you proposed a point, I suggested it might not be > correct, and you tried to blew it off. So at this point, I > am not talking about your point. I am still talking about > my point, if you even remember what it was. > > I'll get to your point after I'm finished with mine. I'm > sorry if I'm a little more simpleminded and can only focus > on one thing at a time. It's an error I often make. > > Larry Jackson > [EMAIL PROTECTED] > > > Sign Up for Juno Platinum Internet Access Today > Only $9.95 per month! > Visit www.juno.com > > // > /// ZION LIST CHARTER: Please read it at /// > /// http://www.zionsbest.com/charter.html /// > / > -- Marc A. Schindler Spruce Grove, Alberta, Canada -- Gateway to the Boreal Parkland Knowledge may give weight, but accomplishments give lustre, and many more people see than weigh. Lord Chesterfield Note: This communication represents the informal personal views of the author solely; its contents do not necessarily reflect those of the authors employer, nor those of any organization with which the author may be associated. // /// ZION LIST CHARTER: Please read it at /// /// http://www.zionsbest.com/charter.html /// / ==^^=== This email was sent to: archive@jab.org EASY UNSUBSCRIBE click here: http://topica.com/u/?aaP9AU.bWix1n.YXJjaGl2 Or send an email to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] T O P I C A -- Register now to manage your mail! http://www.topica.com/partner/tag02/register ==^^===
Re: [ZION] Natural Law
his same pattern, the resurrected Christ said to the > > Nephites, "I am the law" (3 Ne. 15:9). > > > > > > (Joseph Fielding McConkie, Answers: Straightforward Answers to Tough > > Gospel Questions [Salt Lake City: Deseret Book Co., 1998], 167.) > > > > --- > > Mij Ebaboc > > > > > //////// > // > > /// ZION LIST CHARTER: Please read it at /// > > /// http://www.zionsbest.com/charter.html /// > > > > / > > > > > > > > // > /// ZION LIST CHARTER: Please read it at /// > /// http://www.zionsbest.com/charter.html /// > / > -- Marc A. Schindler Spruce Grove, Alberta, Canada -- Gateway to the Boreal Parkland Knowledge may give weight, but accomplishments give lustre, and many more people see than weigh. Lord Chesterfield Note: This communication represents the informal personal views of the author solely; its contents do not necessarily reflect those of the authors employer, nor those of any organization with which the author may be associated. // /// ZION LIST CHARTER: Please read it at /// /// http://www.zionsbest.com/charter.html /// / ==^^=== This email was sent to: archive@jab.org EASY UNSUBSCRIBE click here: http://topica.com/u/?aaP9AU.bWix1n.YXJjaGl2 Or send an email to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] T O P I C A -- Register now to manage your mail! http://www.topica.com/partner/tag02/register ==^^===
Re: [ZION] Curiosity About Alma 1:21
I can't speak for others, but I rather suspect the "false-by-definition" term is used to forestall things like the well-known objection to omnipotence which asks, in an aristotelian type of dialogue: "Is God omnipotent?" "Yes." "Then, can he build a stone so big he can't roll it?" It's a logical paradox. Romans get around this by calling it a mystery, like the trinity. But we don't believe in "magic" and a "mystery" in this context is what I would call "magic." "John W. Redelfs" wrote: > Stephen Beecroft favored us with: > >I would be surprised if any man or woman can name something that God > >cannot do, > >whether because of the limitations of "natural law" or anything else, that > >doesn't fall into this class of false-by-definition. > > God cannot sin. If he did, he would cease to be God. He cannot create > something out of nothing. He cannot annihilate something in the sense of > causing it to altogether cease to exist in any form. He cannot force a man > to heaven. He cannot cause mercy to rob justice. In short, he cannot > violate any of the laws by which he is governed, which are the laws by > which he became God, and the laws that we must keep if we would become Gods. > > Are all of these "false-by-definition?" Maybe so. > > John W. Redelfs [EMAIL PROTECTED] > === > You know what would make a good story? Something > about a clown who make people happy, but inside he's > real sad. Also, he has severe diarrhea. --Jack Handy > === > All my opinions are tentative pending further data. --JWR > > ////////// > /// ZION LIST CHARTER: Please read it at /// > /// http://www.zionsbest.com/charter.html /// > / > -- Marc A. Schindler Spruce Grove, Alberta, Canada -- Gateway to the Boreal Parkland Knowledge may give weight, but accomplishments give lustre, and many more people see than weigh. Lord Chesterfield Note: This communication represents the informal personal views of the author solely; its contents do not necessarily reflect those of the authors employer, nor those of any organization with which the author may be associated. // /// ZION LIST CHARTER: Please read it at /// /// http://www.zionsbest.com/charter.html /// / ==^^=== This email was sent to: archive@jab.org EASY UNSUBSCRIBE click here: http://topica.com/u/?aaP9AU.bWix1n.YXJjaGl2 Or send an email to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] T O P I C A -- Register now to manage your mail! http://www.topica.com/partner/tag02/register ==^^===
Re: [ZION] Carob beans
See, folks? You have a question, and there's always someone on the list who a) knows the answer; b) may not know, but knows how to find out; and even on occasion, c) hasn't a clue but can concoct an answer with such an air of authority that no one cares if it's right or not ;-) [Thanks, Jim] Jim Cobabe wrote: > Carob is a unique substance that has an appearance similar to cocoa. It > comes from the Ceratonia siliqua, an evergreen tree native to the > Eastern Mediterranean area. This relatively wild tree, which grows up to > 50 feet tall, bears fruit at the age of six to eight years with a > greater abundance of fruit every other year. The average annual yield > per tree is 200-250 lbs. of fruit. Carob, or St. John's Bread, as it is > commonly known, is a large (4-12 inch long) dried, bean-like pod. Pods > are harvested from September to November. Inside the carob pods are tiny > beans which are used to make locust bean gum, a stabilizer and thickener > in foods. The carob pods themselves are roasted and ground into carob > powder. Carob powder can be used to replace cocoa at levels from 25-50%. > While carob performs like cocoa, it differs in sugar and fat content. > Cocoa may contain up to 23% fat and 5% sugar while carob has .7% fat and > a natural sugar content of 42-48%. Nutritionally, carob has none of the > allergy-producing antibodies or the caffeine stimulant theobromine found > in the cocoa bean. Carob contains as much vitamin B1 as asparagus or > strawberries, the same amount of niacin as lima beans, lentils or peas > and more vitamin A than eggplant, asparagus and beets. It is also high > in vitamin B2, calcium, magnesium and iron. In addition to being a > delicious and healthful foodstuff, carob powder is used as a tobacco > flavoring and in the production of some pharmaceuticals. > > Matthew 3:1-6 (KJV) In those days came John the Baptist, preaching in > the wilderness of Judaea, And saying, Repent ye: for the kingdom of > heaven is at hand. For this is he that was spoken of by the prophet > Esaias, saying, The voice of one crying in the wilderness, Prepare ye > the way of the Lord, make his paths straight. And the same John had his > raiment of camel's hair, and a leathern girdle about his loins; and his > meat was locusts and wild honey. Then went out to him Jerusalem, and all > Judaea, and all the region round about Jordan, And were baptized of him > in Jordan, confessing their sins. > > // > /// ZION LIST CHARTER: Please read it at /// > /// http://www.zionsbest.com/charter.html /// > / > -- Marc A. Schindler Spruce Grove, Alberta, Canada -- Gateway to the Boreal Parkland Knowledge may give weight, but accomplishments give lustre, and many more people see than weigh. Lord Chesterfield Note: This communication represents the informal personal views of the author solely; its contents do not necessarily reflect those of the authors employer, nor those of any organization with which the author may be associated. // /// ZION LIST CHARTER: Please read it at /// /// http://www.zionsbest.com/charter.html /// / ==^^=== This email was sent to: archive@jab.org EASY UNSUBSCRIBE click here: http://topica.com/u/?aaP9AU.bWix1n.YXJjaGl2 Or send an email to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] T O P I C A -- Register now to manage your mail! http://www.topica.com/partner/tag02/register ==^^===
Re: [ZION] Going, Going, Gone
Hmm. I was able to get at it. But just in case, I've cut-and-paste it at the end
of this post. Formatting may be a bit out of whack, but at least you'll have the
text.
George Cobabe wrote:
> story no longer available - if you want us to read it you almost need to
> copy and paste.
>
> George
>
> - Original Message -
> From: "Marc A. Schindler" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
> To: "zion-l" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
> Sent: Wednesday, December 18, 2002 9:55 PM
> Subject: [ZION] Going, Going, Gone
>
> A rare column by Canada's funniest conservative [tm] which is deadpan
> serious and with which I agree (that combination being what's "rare," I
> mean), on Henry Kissinger, Cardinal Law, and Trent Lott
> http://www.nationalpost.com/home/story.html?id={F0F3B60D-1024-4F3C-8E75-9F9E
> 177632CD}
>
Thursday » December 19 » 2002
Kissinger, Law, Lott: gone, gone, going
Mark Steyn
National Post
Monday, December 16, 2002
Friday was an odd day in America. It began with an announcement that there would
be a late afternoon press
conference by Trent Lott, the Senate Majority Leader under fire for waxing
nostalgic about Strom Thurmond's
segregationist candidacy in the 1948 Presidential election. Initially, everyone
assumed he'd be resigning. But he
didn't. Instead, all kinds of other folks did. Henry Kissinger resigned as
chairman of the panel looking into "what
really happened" on September 11th, and Bernard Cardinal Law resigned as
Archbishop of Boston, the Catholic
archdiocese most deeply mired in the priestly sex abuse pandemic. Dr. Kissinger's
resignation was highly
premature, Cardinal Law's extremely belated and the timing of Senator Lott's is
still being worked out.
Dr. Strangelove's decision to bail has deprived the left of a lot of fun. Even
those of us who are partial to the old
boy like him precisely because he's sinister, ruthless, a master of realpolitik,
etc. These may be fine qualities but
not exactly the ones you're looking for on a commission meant to ferret out the
truth from murky spooks and lay
it before the people. Various lefties denounced Bush's appointment as "deeply
cynical," but it seems to me
exactly the opposite. Putting Kissinger in charge of the 9/11 truth squad
virtually guaranteed no one would believ
e a word of what the final report said. Only someone indifferent to cynicism would
do that. Unless, of course,
Bush knows that what's likely to be uncovered is so damaging the only thing to do
is release the information via
a channel that guarantees your opponents will dismiss it out of hand as the one
scenario that can't possibly be
true. If so, it's "deeply cynical" mainly in the sense that it's deeply cynical
about public cynicism. And I don't
believe Bush is that cynical.
More likely, the appointment of Kissinger is confirmation of how Bush is almost
endearingly detached from the
world of spin, image, perception and their muddy cross-currents. This shouldn't
surprise us: Nobody preoccupied
with how he'll "look" would have picked Cheney as Veep, Rummy for Defence or John
Ashcroft as
Attorney-General. Whatever one feels about these appointments, they're not the
acts of a President who's the
creature of focus groups. In the end, Dr. Kissinger ankled because he didn't want
to reveal the "client list" of his
international consultancy. It supposedly includes many foreign governments. It
would be interesting to know
which ones. The good doctor has taken, for example, a more benign view of the
House of Saud than many of us
have. But he's back in private practice now and it's strictly his business.
Cardinal Law, by contrast, clung on month after month, long after it became clear
how much his stewardship had
damaged the Church. I cannot agree with Hugo Gurdon's conclusion that the
Archbishop's "past actions were,
surely, due to shortcomings and mistakes rather than to malignancy or indifference
to the plight of children."
Indeed, I'm staggered Hugo could write such a sentence. The overwhelming weight of
evidence is that Law was
at the pinnacle of an elaborate racket set up to protect those he knew to be
compulsive child rapists. In 1997,
the Archbishop went out of the way to give fulsome thanks for the "priestly care
and ministry to all" of Paul
Shanley, a man Law had been aware for two decades was a serial sodomizer of those
in his care and who had
given public lectures on the benefits of "man-boy love." It was Law who
re-assigned and re-re-assigned and
re-re-re-assigned the now defrocked Father Geoghan, in full knowledge of what had
happened in the last parish
and of what would certainly happen in the next. "Shortcomings" won't cover it, nor
will "indifference
Re: [ZION] Subject to natural law
I think we're all in that boat. But speculation can be fun sometimes, too :-) Jim Cobabe wrote: > Paul Osborne wrote: > --- > God does what his Father did before him... > --- > > Paul, I agree with this idea, but then must confess that it is about as > far as I'm able to go, philosophically. I don't claim to have much more > insight here than extends from my own simple common sense, which really > is pretty simple. The idea, as Joseph Smith might say, "feels good" to > me. Anything more would just be uninformed speculation. I can't claim > enough understanding about exactly what it means to argue anything > further. > > --- > Mij Ebaboc > > // > /// ZION LIST CHARTER: Please read it at /// > /// http://www.zionsbest.com/charter.html /// > ///// > -- Marc A. Schindler Spruce Grove, Alberta, Canada -- Gateway to the Boreal Parkland Knowledge may give weight, but accomplishments give lustre, and many more people see than weigh. Lord Chesterfield Note: This communication represents the informal personal views of the author solely; its contents do not necessarily reflect those of the authors employer, nor those of any organization with which the author may be associated. // /// ZION LIST CHARTER: Please read it at /// /// http://www.zionsbest.com/charter.html /// / ==^^=== This email was sent to: archive@jab.org EASY UNSUBSCRIBE click here: http://topica.com/u/?aaP9AU.bWix1n.YXJjaGl2 Or send an email to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] T O P I C A -- Register now to manage your mail! http://www.topica.com/partner/tag02/register ==^^===
Re: [ZION] Curiosity About Alma 1:21
Jim Cobabe wrote: > > > I'm pretty clear on these particulars, and adding others day by day, as > I can manage. One can't really ask for anything more. Good thing this is all good, clean fun, eh? -- Marc A. Schindler Spruce Grove, Alberta, Canada -- Gateway to the Boreal Parkland Knowledge may give weight, but accomplishments give lustre, and many more people see than weigh. Lord Chesterfield Note: This communication represents the informal personal views of the author solely; its contents do not necessarily reflect those of the authors employer, nor those of any organization with which the author may be associated. // /// ZION LIST CHARTER: Please read it at /// /// http://www.zionsbest.com/charter.html /// / ==^^=== This email was sent to: archive@jab.org EASY UNSUBSCRIBE click here: http://topica.com/u/?aaP9AU.bWix1n.YXJjaGl2 Or send an email to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] T O P I C A -- Register now to manage your mail! http://www.topica.com/partner/tag02/register ==^^===
Re: [ZION] Iraq
Jon Spencer wrote: > You are probably wrong. > > War is not imminent because we are not ready. We will be in about one > month. > So why did two complete naval battle groups start sailing *out of* the Middle East earlier this week? Actually, this is an area where my "prognostication" has a weak point, because you're right in principle; the war could be delayed until the US feels it's ready. Any prognostication is at best an educated guess, and if I'm wrong, well, it won't be the first time I've had to eat lumpy porridge ;-) > > Also, I believe that the statements Bush makes are directed at Saddam > primarily, and not at the US populace. I also believe that the US is trying > very hard to get a rebellion going in Iraq, although I personally hold out > little hope of that happening. > Why? Saddam isn't on Florida's voter list, is he? > > I do not believe that there will be any backing down. IMNSHO, Bush honestly > believes that Saddam is a major threat to not only the US, bat also to > Canada (:-) and the rest of our allies. Saddam will go. > > And as hard as it is to imagine, I guess I, too, could be wrong. > > Jon > At least we're both covering our cyber-rear ends, so to speak... -- Marc A. Schindler Spruce Grove, Alberta, Canada -- Gateway to the Boreal Parkland Knowledge may give weight, but accomplishments give lustre, and many more people see than weigh. Lord Chesterfield Note: This communication represents the informal personal views of the author solely; its contents do not necessarily reflect those of the authors employer, nor those of any organization with which the author may be associated. // /// ZION LIST CHARTER: Please read it at /// /// http://www.zionsbest.com/charter.html /// / ==^^=== This email was sent to: archive@jab.org EASY UNSUBSCRIBE click here: http://topica.com/u/?aaP9AU.bWix1n.YXJjaGl2 Or send an email to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] T O P I C A -- Register now to manage your mail! http://www.topica.com/partner/tag02/register ==^^===
Re: [ZION] Curiosity About Alma 1:21
It's quite possible. My point is simply that God uses humans for His own ends, *whether those people are aware of it or not*. After all, we use technology today for the benefit of the Church (as well as society as a whole) that was developed by men and women of all kinds of faith, including no faith. To say that God raised a certain group up for a certain purpose is true, but it doesn't have to mean they are akin to demi-gods, else all of us would be useless in the building up of the Kingdom. I mean, heck, look at the philandering reputation of ol' Ben Franklin. Okay, he'll have to answer for that (if it's true; again, just take this as a rhetorical example) but that's not to deny the role Divinity had in the situation. Paul Osborne wrote: > Thomas Jefferson and Benjamin Franklin?? > > Two of my most favorites. :-) > > I think had they lived a little later they would have been unfailing arms > of the prophet Joseph Smith. > > Paul O > [EMAIL PROTECTED] > > > Sign Up for Juno Platinum Internet Access Today > Only $9.95 per month! > Visit www.juno.com > > // > /// ZION LIST CHARTER: Please read it at /// > /// http://www.zionsbest.com/charter.html /// > ///////// > -- Marc A. Schindler Spruce Grove, Alberta, Canada -- Gateway to the Boreal Parkland Knowledge may give weight, but accomplishments give lustre, and many more people see than weigh. Lord Chesterfield Note: This communication represents the informal personal views of the author solely; its contents do not necessarily reflect those of the authors employer, nor those of any organization with which the author may be associated. // /// ZION LIST CHARTER: Please read it at /// /// http://www.zionsbest.com/charter.html /// / ==^^=== This email was sent to: archive@jab.org EASY UNSUBSCRIBE click here: http://topica.com/u/?aaP9AU.bWix1n.YXJjaGl2 Or send an email to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] T O P I C A -- Register now to manage your mail! http://www.topica.com/partner/tag02/register ==^^===
Re: [ZION] Afghanistan improved?
Jon Spencer wrote: > This is all fine and dandy, Marc, but you sidestepped my question. > > Do you drink beer? (And, while I'm at it, did you play Homer on the > series?) :-) > My promotion contract with Duff Inc. prohibits me from answering this question, on the advice of my legal counsel -- Marc A. Schindler Spruce Grove, Alberta, Canada -- Gateway to the Boreal Parkland Knowledge may give weight, but accomplishments give lustre, and many more people see than weigh. Lord Chesterfield Note: This communication represents the informal personal views of the author solely; its contents do not necessarily reflect those of the authors employer, nor those of any organization with which the author may be associated. // /// ZION LIST CHARTER: Please read it at /// /// http://www.zionsbest.com/charter.html /// / ==^^=== This email was sent to: archive@jab.org EASY UNSUBSCRIBE click here: http://topica.com/u/?aaP9AU.bWix1n.YXJjaGl2 Or send an email to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] T O P I C A -- Register now to manage your mail! http://www.topica.com/partner/tag02/register ==^^===
Re: [ZION] Subject to natural law
Jim, as one hammer to another, you have hit the nail right on the head: these words have "baggage" that we have to be wary of. I don't think any of us here are really disagreeing with each other in substance (to use another word full of ancient baggage), but only in semantics. Jim Cobabe wrote: > John W. Redelfs wrote: > --- > The idea that he made all the laws included those by which he progressed > to become a God is a Protestant idea. It is akin to creating something > from nothing, which of course is impossible even for God. > --- > > One of the problems we encounter in discussing such ideas is the inertia > of a massive Catholic and Protestant lexicon, which intrudes everywhere > with false ideas and distortions of the truth. The "omni" words are > overburdened in this sense, and it would probably simplify things if we > just abandoned them and coined our own "ideosyncratic" terms with our > own unique definitions. > > Joseph Smith's teachings clearly indicate that our spirits were > coeternal with God, from before the beginning of time, but that God > instituted the laws in the premortal world which constitute for us the > plan of salvation. These are the natural laws to which I make > reference. > > "God himself," the Prophet says, "finding he was in the midst of spirits > and glory, because he was more intelligent, saw proper to institute laws > whereby the rest could have a privilege to advance like himself. The > relationship we have with God places us in a situation to advance in > knowledge. He has power to institute laws to instruct the weaker > intelligences, that they may be exalted with himself, so that they might > have one glory upon another, and all that knowledge, powers, glory, and > intelligence, which is requisite in order to save them in the world of > spirits." (Teachings, p. 354.) > > Thus the plan of salvation (of redemption, and of exaltation) comprises > all of the laws, ordinances, principles, and doctrines by conformity to > which the spirit offspring of God have power to progress to the high > state of exaltation enjoyed by the Father. > (Bruce R. McConkie, Mormon Doctrine, 2d ed. [Salt Lake City: Bookcraft, > 1966], 575.) > > He comprehendeth all things, and all things are before him, and all > things are round about him; and he is above all things, and in all > things, and is through all things, and is round about all things; and > all things are by him, and of him, even God, forever and ever. > > And again, verily I say unto you, he hath given a law unto all things, > by which they move in their times and their seasons;(D&C 88:41-42) > > --- > Mij Ebaboc > > ////// > /// ZION LIST CHARTER: Please read it at /// > /// http://www.zionsbest.com/charter.html /// > / > -- Marc A. Schindler Spruce Grove, Alberta, Canada -- Gateway to the Boreal Parkland Knowledge may give weight, but accomplishments give lustre, and many more people see than weigh. Lord Chesterfield Note: This communication represents the informal personal views of the author solely; its contents do not necessarily reflect those of the authors employer, nor those of any organization with which the author may be associated. // /// ZION LIST CHARTER: Please read it at /// /// http://www.zionsbest.com/charter.html /// / ==^^=== This email was sent to: archive@jab.org EASY UNSUBSCRIBE click here: http://topica.com/u/?aaP9AU.bWix1n.YXJjaGl2 Or send an email to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] T O P I C A -- Register now to manage your mail! http://www.topica.com/partner/tag02/register ==^^===
Re: [ZION] Subject to natural law
Stephen Beecroft wrote: > -John- > > It is my understanding of Mormon doctrine that the laws by which > > Heavenly Father became and exalted being are coeternal with him. > > They are uncreate. And it was by obedience to these laws that > > he because God. > > My understanding follows Jim's quotation of Joseph Smith's teachings and > of the scriptures; that God *instituted laws* among us. Whether those > laws were pre-existent or not seems of little import. Remember, Marc's > comment was that God is "subject to 'natural law'". This is demonstrably > untrue; God is above nature, has created nature, and has instituted her > laws. > It's not demonstrably untrue; I went on to explain that the term had two meanings, and quoted James E. Talmage and Joseph Fielding Smith to illustrate. > > He could, for example, "travel faster than > light", an event that doesn't even have a well-defined meaning to us. > That's my point about telestial law. As Pres. Smith said, he has access to laws we don't understand. But that doesn't make them any less laws. -- Marc A. Schindler Spruce Grove, Alberta, Canada -- Gateway to the Boreal Parkland Knowledge may give weight, but accomplishments give lustre, and many more people see than weigh. Lord Chesterfield Note: This communication represents the informal personal views of the author solely; its contents do not necessarily reflect those of the authors employer, nor those of any organization with which the author may be associated. // /// ZION LIST CHARTER: Please read it at /// /// http://www.zionsbest.com/charter.html /// / ==^^=== This email was sent to: archive@jab.org EASY UNSUBSCRIBE click here: http://topica.com/u/?aaP9AU.bWix1n.YXJjaGl2 Or send an email to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] T O P I C A -- Register now to manage your mail! http://www.topica.com/partner/tag02/register ==^^===
Re: [ZION] Curiosity About Alma 1:21
I understand that we would be wary of talking about God in any limiting way. But if you will permit me a bit of "spin latitude" on this, you can always turn the question around and say that it was those bad bad Catholics who ruined theology with their martial language, fit only to order troops and civil servants around. But that's the problem with words: once they've been used a certain way it sticks, and all of its baggage comes with it, like when your mother-in-law comes to visit. ;-) (E.g., will we ever admit to being "gay and dapper gentlemen" again?) Stephen Beecroft wrote: > -Marc- > > The problem arises out of the word "natural," and is a limitation > > of our language. By natural are we referring to the corruptible > > telestial world, or are we referring simply to the fact that > > there are higher laws which are "natural" but which operate in > > *their* realms, and which we by their and our very nature cannot > > comprehend? I'm using the term in its latter connotation. > > I don't disagree with this. My hesitation comes in labelling God as > something other than omnipotent, even in saying that God isn't > omnipotent "in the sense the [Roman Catholics] believed". The fact that > other religions don't understand the meaning of words like "omnipotent" > does not negate the fact that God is truly all-powerful, far, far beyond > any remote possibility that we have to imagine it. No, God can't do > undoable things, like save people in their sins, or make a thing > simultaneously exist and not exist. But these things are ultimately > tautologically false; that is, they defy their own definition. I would > be surprised if any man or woman can name something that God cannot do, > whether because of the limitations of "natural law" or anything else, > that doesn't fall into this class of false-by-definition. > > Stephen > > ////// > /// ZION LIST CHARTER: Please read it at /// > /// http://www.zionsbest.com/charter.html /// > / > -- Marc A. Schindler Spruce Grove, Alberta, Canada -- Gateway to the Boreal Parkland Knowledge may give weight, but accomplishments give lustre, and many more people see than weigh. Lord Chesterfield Note: This communication represents the informal personal views of the author solely; its contents do not necessarily reflect those of the authors employer, nor those of any organization with which the author may be associated. // /// ZION LIST CHARTER: Please read it at /// /// http://www.zionsbest.com/charter.html /// / ==^^=== This email was sent to: archive@jab.org EASY UNSUBSCRIBE click here: http://topica.com/u/?aaP9AU.bWix1n.YXJjaGl2 Or send an email to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] T O P I C A -- Register now to manage your mail! http://www.topica.com/partner/tag02/register ==^^===
Re: [ZION] Natural Law
They are all duly queued, waiting merely to be cued... Stephen Beecroft wrote: > Ah, well. Cue the violins. At least I know how to spell > carob-beans.) > -- Marc A. Schindler Spruce Grove, Alberta, Canada -- Gateway to the Boreal Parkland Knowledge may give weight, but accomplishments give lustre, and many more people see than weigh. Lord Chesterfield Note: This communication represents the informal personal views of the author solely; its contents do not necessarily reflect those of the authors employer, nor those of any organization with which the author may be associated. // /// ZION LIST CHARTER: Please read it at /// /// http://www.zionsbest.com/charter.html /// / ==^^=== This email was sent to: archive@jab.org EASY UNSUBSCRIBE click here: http://topica.com/u/?aaP9AU.bWix1n.YXJjaGl2 Or send an email to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] T O P I C A -- Register now to manage your mail! http://www.topica.com/partner/tag02/register ==^^===
Re: [ZION] The latest from Iraq
I quoted you the exact wording that made my point. I do not need to "spin" anything. Here it is again, since you keep deleting it in your responses, so please either do me the courtesy of addressing the issue, or admit either apathy (which is fine if you're tired of discussing it) or error: === Are you saying that the following doesn't say the US saw it first? "The U.S. government has made copies of the Iraqi weapons declaration and distributed them to the five permanent members of the U.N. Security Council and other council members with expertise to assess the declaration for proliferation-sensitive information, State Department deputy spokesman Philip Reeker said at the daily media briefing in Washington December 10. " Reeker said once such information has been deleted, a working document will be made available to other members of the council as soon as possible." And again, in the Q&A session: "Question: There have been some grumblings on the sideline about Washington taking the first set of documents and whisking them down here to copy them off. Have you received any messages like that from Permanent 5 members or other Security Council members? " Mr. Reeker: No. And, in fact, all Permanent 5 members have their copies, as I think we talked about yesterday. As I mentioned, based on the Council president's decision -- which was an appropriate one and consistent with the resolution -- we assisted in ensuring the safeguards against release, transmission of proliferation-sensitive information, making sure that that was not jeopardized. " So we did the copying of this. We got the copies to all of those members with that expertise and all together we will be assessing the full document to see about proliferation-sensitive information so that then we can make available to other members of the Council a working document as soon as possible." Now tell me: how is it possible to do copying for others when you don't have the document yourself to begin with? [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: > Marc Schindler: > > That was not my point at all. Please reread it. ... > You are not criticizing what I wrote, but how you *read* it. > > ___ > > I'm not criticizing anything. You are ignoring my point and I > am ignoring your bait. > > Spin on. > > Larry Jackson > [EMAIL PROTECTED] > > > Sign Up for Juno Platinum Internet Access Today > Only $9.95 per month! > Visit www.juno.com > > // > /// ZION LIST CHARTER: Please read it at /// > /// http://www.zionsbest.com/charter.html /// > / > -- Marc A. Schindler Spruce Grove, Alberta, Canada -- Gateway to the Boreal Parkland Knowledge may give weight, but accomplishments give lustre, and many more people see than weigh. Lord Chesterfield Note: This communication represents the informal personal views of the author solely; its contents do not necessarily reflect those of the authors employer, nor those of any organization with which the author may be associated. // /// ZION LIST CHARTER: Please read it at /// /// http://www.zionsbest.com/charter.html /// / ==^^=== This email was sent to: archive@jab.org EASY UNSUBSCRIBE click here: http://topica.com/u/?aaP9AU.bWix1n.YXJjaGl2 Or send an email to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] T O P I C A -- Register now to manage your mail! http://www.topica.com/partner/tag02/register ==^^===
[ZION] Iraq
Am I For or Against War in Iraq? Somebody Please Persuade Me, pleads Globe and Mail columnist and Generation-X'er Doug Saunders, writing from CFB Kingston (where my son has taken sigint training, incidentally, and near where he's currently attending university): <<http://www.globeandmail.ca/servlet/GIS.Servlets.HTMLTemplate?current_row=3&tf=tgam/search/tgam/SearchFullStory.html&cf=tgam/search/tgam/SearchFullStory.cfg&configFileLoc=tgam/config&encoded_keywords=am+i+for+or+against+war+in+iraq&option=&start_row=3&start_row_offset1=&num_rows=1&search_results_start=1&query=am+i+for+or+against+war+in+iraq>> -- Marc A. Schindler Spruce Grove, Alberta, Canada -- Gateway to the Boreal Parkland Knowledge may give weight, but accomplishments give lustre, and many more people see than weigh. Lord Chesterfield Note: This communication represents the informal personal views of the author solely; its contents do not necessarily reflect those of the authors employer, nor those of any organization with which the author may be associated. // /// ZION LIST CHARTER: Please read it at /// /// http://www.zionsbest.com/charter.html /// / ==^^=== This email was sent to: archive@jab.org EASY UNSUBSCRIBE click here: http://topica.com/u/?aaP9AU.bWix1n.YXJjaGl2 Or send an email to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] T O P I C A -- Register now to manage your mail! http://www.topica.com/partner/tag02/register ==^^===
[ZION] Going, Going, Gone
A rare column by Canada's funniest conservative [tm] which is deadpan
serious and with which I agree (that combination being what's "rare," I
mean), on Henry Kissinger, Cardinal Law, and Trent Lott
http://www.nationalpost.com/home/story.html?id={F0F3B60D-1024-4F3C-8E75-9F9E177632CD}
--
Marc A. Schindler
Spruce Grove, Alberta, Canada -- Gateway to the Boreal Parkland
Knowledge may give weight, but accomplishments give lustre, and many
more people see than weigh. Lord Chesterfield
Note: This communication represents the informal personal views of the
author solely; its contents do not necessarily reflect those of the
authors employer, nor those of any organization with which the author
may be associated.
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[ZION] What does a frigate do?
Ever wonder what the difference is between, say, a destroyer and a frigate? Easy: frigates protect battleships and aircraft carriers. A story from aboard the HMCS Winnipeg in the Gulf of Oman: http://www.nationalpost.com/search/site/story.asp?id=233C28A0-78ED-4BA2-BB04-C8A6AFCCC9EF -- Marc A. Schindler Spruce Grove, Alberta, Canada -- Gateway to the Boreal Parkland Knowledge may give weight, but accomplishments give lustre, and many more people see than weigh. Lord Chesterfield Note: This communication represents the informal personal views of the author solely; its contents do not necessarily reflect those of the authors employer, nor those of any organization with which the author may be associated. // /// ZION LIST CHARTER: Please read it at /// /// http://www.zionsbest.com/charter.html /// / ==^^=== This email was sent to: archive@jab.org EASY UNSUBSCRIBE click here: http://topica.com/u/?aaP9AU.bWix1n.YXJjaGl2 Or send an email to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] T O P I C A -- Register now to manage your mail! http://www.topica.com/partner/tag02/register ==^^===
[ZION] "Dr" Red Green was right all along
Duct tape really is good for you...
http://www.nationalpost.com/home/story.html?id={C5BC794A-4AC7-4177-93A3-31E9EA95D88E}
--
Marc A. Schindler
Spruce Grove, Alberta, Canada -- Gateway to the Boreal Parkland
Knowledge may give weight, but accomplishments give lustre, and many
more people see than weigh. Lord Chesterfield
Note: This communication represents the informal personal views of the
author solely; its contents do not necessarily reflect those of the
authors employer, nor those of any organization with which the author
may be associated.
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Re: [ZION] Curiosity About Alma 1:21
George Cobabe wrote: > Marc - it seems the question is not he definition of natural law, except as > it involves who created that law. > > The question is: Did God, i.e. our God, create the natural law for his > creation or did He just transpose it from the overall eternal concept of > Natural Law. > > Is every universe, form every God - the same or can they vary? > > I, of course, do not know the answer but I believe that the law of our > universe was created by our Father. > I agree. In this sense I take the term "natural law" to mean a telestial law, a law of "corruptness" as Paul would say. > > This does not mean that He did not progress from a universe that had the > same, nor different, natural laws. > And that's the second way to use the term, the way I think John and I are, as another way of saying there's no such thing as "magic". > > When we are told that God created all in the universe - I believe it. > Then the discussion might be more profitable if we separated our existing universe fromwell, whatever it is that transcends it. -- Marc A. Schindler Spruce Grove, Alberta, Canada -- Gateway to the Boreal Parkland Knowledge may give weight, but accomplishments give lustre, and many more people see than weigh. Lord Chesterfield Note: This communication represents the informal personal views of the author solely; its contents do not necessarily reflect those of the authors employer, nor those of any organization with which the author may be associated. // /// ZION LIST CHARTER: Please read it at /// /// http://www.zionsbest.com/charter.html /// / ==^^=== This email was sent to: archive@jab.org EASY UNSUBSCRIBE click here: http://topica.com/u/?aaP9AU.bWix1n.YXJjaGl2 Or send an email to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] T O P I C A -- Register now to manage your mail! http://www.topica.com/partner/tag02/register ==^^===
[ZION] LDS Ex-Utah Representative Found Dead in Tel Aviv
[Thanks to Scott Gordon at FAIR for bringing this to my attention] http://abcnews.go.com/wire/US/ap20021218_2241.html Ex-Utah Rep. Owens Found Dead in Tel Aviv Former Utah Rep. Wayne Owens Found Dead on Tel Aviv Beach; He Was 65 The Associated Press WASHINGTON Dec. 18th Wayne Owens, a former Utah congressman and longtime advocate for Middle East peace, was found dead Wednesday in Israel, according to the State Department. He was 65. Owens, a Democrat, served four terms in Congress and helped launch the Center for Middle East Peace and Economic Cooperation, a Washington-based group dedicated to fostering peace in the troubled region. His body was found on a beach in Tel Aviv at about 9 p.m. local time Wednesday, according to Stuart Patt, spokesman for the State Department's Consular Affairs Bureau. He apparently died of natural causes, Patt said. Owens was on business in the region. A spokesman for the family could not immediately be reached. "What Wayne Owens did was change people's lives. He did it in so many ways. He was dedicated to public service," said University of Utah political science professor Tim Chambless, who interned for Owens in the spring of 1973 and later worked on his campaign. "He changed my life. It's a great loss." In Congress, Owens, a native of Panguitch, Utah, fought to protect more than 5 million acres of Utah wilderness, sponsored legislation to compensate those sickened by radioactive fallout from nuclear weapons tests in Nevada, and used his seat on the House Foreign Affairs Committee to advocate for peace in the Middle East. He was first elected in 1972 and served as a member of the House Judiciary Committee where he voted to impeach President Nixon and was part of a group of freshman Democrats who forced a vote to end the Vietnam War. He lost a bid for Senate in 1974 to Republican Jake Garn and made an unsuccessful bid for governor in 1984. In 1986, he regained Utah's 2nd District seat, which he held until 1992, when he again ran for Senate, losing to Republican Bob Bennett. Owens helped launch the Center for Middle East Peace and Economic Cooperation in 1989 and served as its president, spending much of the last decade meeting with leaders in the region trying to foster peace through economic development. Utah Rep. Jim Matheson said he was "very shocked" to hear of Owens' death. Matheson, who ran Owens' campaign for governor in 1984, said Owens served as a political mentor to his whole family. "I think that's true for a lot of people in public service," Matheson said. "The first memory I have of a campaign in Utah was when he walked the state in 1972. He brought a certain energy and enthusiasm to politics." Starting in 1965, Owens worked as a staffer for Utah Sen. Frank Moss and Massachusetts Sen. Edward Kennedy. He was the Rocky Mountain coordinator for Robert Kennedy's 1968 presidential bid. He spent six years as a full-time missionary for The Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints. He is survived by his wife Marlene and five children. Funeral plans have yet to be announced. -- Marc A. Schindler Spruce Grove, Alberta, Canada -- Gateway to the Boreal Parkland Knowledge may give weight, but accomplishments give lustre, and many more people see than weigh. Lord Chesterfield Note: This communication represents the informal personal views of the author solely; its contents do not necessarily reflect those of the authors employer, nor those of any organization with which the author may be associated. // /// ZION LIST CHARTER: Please read it at /// /// http://www.zionsbest.com/charter.html /// / ==^^=== This email was sent to: archive@jab.org EASY UNSUBSCRIBE click here: http://topica.com/u/?aaP9AU.bWix1n.YXJjaGl2 Or send an email to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] T O P I C A -- Register now to manage your mail! http://www.topica.com/partner/tag02/register ==^^===
Re: [ZION] Curiosity About Alma 1:21
Thanks for the additional insight. Looks like I was a bit out-of-date -- I was stretching back to my bonehead philosophy class in university. But there must be some kind of term for a belief in an *im*personal higher power. Any philosophers on the list? "John W. Redelfs" wrote: > This isn't quite right, Marc. I used to be a Deist, and among Deists no > such distinctions are made between a personal and impersonal God. A Deist > was one who believed only what all religions (of the day) held in common, > ie. 1) a supreme being, 2) a system of punishments and rewards after death, > etc. Here is a passage from the current online Britannica* that will set > you straight: > > It is my understanding that most of our Founders were Deists. Knowing as > they did that the religions then extant were the irrational philosophies of > men, they tried to strip away all the incrustations of sectarianism and > return to the most fundamental basics common to all. No wonder they joined > the Church when they got a chance. No wonder I did. > And this part I would agree with without hesitation. In Jefferson's numerous letters on the matter, including his famous (or infamous, depending on your pov) letter regarding the "curtain between church and state", it seems like he was acting as much out of disgust with existing religions as anything, but he did write some things which indicated he did not believe Jesus Christ was anything other than a very enlightened teacher. Unfortunately, it's like quoting dead prophets: without their presence to defend or explain themselves, we can but try to interpret them, and we know what that leads to. *totally off-topic, but this reminds me. I've been tempted to pay for a subscription to Britannica online (I remember you mentioning it was one of the few sites you felt were worth paying for). Well it turns out that if we order our 2002 tax software, QuickTax, from Intuit this month, we get a free Britannica online CD-ROM set/subscription. I emailed that form back pretty quickly! Oh, and ObLocalBoosterism: Intuit's Canadian operations are HQ'd here in Edmonton for various reasons, but the people in Santa Clara wanted them to expand, to take over the marketing and development of QuickTax/Quicken for the Pacific Rim and parts of South America, as well as establish a tech support call centre to cover all of North America, but they wanted them to move from Edmonton to a more geographically "sensible" location. The local leadership didn't want to move so came to us (when I was a trade officer for our provincial ministry of Innovation & Science) for help. I helped, together with my Edmonton city counterpart, put together a package showing that Edmonton was the most cost-effective place for them to locate *all* their operations, including the Santa Clara one. Well, of course, they didn't go quite that far, but I took a lot of pride when they opened their new building in SE Edmonton a few years ago which quintupled their previous space. So if you ever call tech support for Intuit, tell the guy or gal on the other end of the line, "How 'boot them Oilers, eh?!" And Mark and I know a story about his old boss, Glenn, but I can never tell it publicly ;-) [seriously, part of the law here, which is consistent with how civil servants work in commonwealth countries is that according to Section 19 of the Alberta Public Service Act, anything that's said to me by a private company in confidence is to be held in confidence just as if I had signed a NDA with them. I know lots of stuff about Microsoft, too -- mostly good, incidentally -- but could never talk about it publicly. The only reason I can talk about Intuit is because the local president, who is also now the VP International for all of Intuit, publicly thanked the two of us for our help when they had the ribbon-cutting, so I'm simply repeating what's already on the public record] Boy, that was a rambling, post, eh? When your wife treats you to good pizza it puts a feller in a good mood. -- Marc A. Schindler Spruce Grove, Alberta, Canada -- Gateway to the Boreal Parkland Knowledge may give weight, but accomplishments give lustre, and many more people see than weigh. Lord Chesterfield Note: This communication represents the informal personal views of the author solely; its contents do not necessarily reflect those of the authors employer, nor those of any organization with which the author may be associated. // /// ZION LIST CHARTER: Please read it at /// /// http://www.zionsbest.com/charter.html /// / ==^^=== This email was sent to: archive@jab.org EASY UNSUBSCRIBE click
Re: [ZION] World's Tallest Buildings
My wife treated me to pizza tonight (we went to the local Boston Pizza) and she was telling me that she had heard that one of the guys who crashed the plane into the WTC was an architect, and had very strong (doh!) opinions on how the West's architecture was blasphemous. I won't go into all of what she had heard (and I'm not sure where she heard or read this), but one aspect of it was something we'd call a "tower of Babylon" complex (my words, not her's). Don't know if this is true, and even if it were, it certainly wouldn't come close to justifying his involvement in the atrocity, but I thought it was an interesting thought. But for various reasons I think European and North American countries have kind of gotten through our skyscraper phase, if I can put it that way. More and more the action is in exurban "industrial estates" -- Redmond WA and Santa Clara CA being a couple of the original ones, along with places like Framingham MA and Clearwater FL (or in Canada, Markham ON, Kanata ON, Richmond BC and Ste.-Anne-de-Bellevue QC* come to mind). It's in Asia, which is just entering the industrial era in a major way, where we're seeing all the big skyscrapers go up now. Hong Kong and Shanghai, but according to Elden Watson, who recently came back from a trip to China and showed me some scanned photos he'd taken, even in places like Shenzhen (the "red" side of Hong Kong), Chonqing (what we used to call Chungking) and Guangzhou (Canton) there are plans for skyscrapers over 500 m high. Even the CN tower is only 550 metres and a bit -- but it's only arguably a "building" (I'd call it a "structure", or as locals laconically observe, the worst food at the highest altitude). Not that I'm necessarily defending super-tall skyscrapers (I don't have strong feelings one way or the other, but do admit to sunburning my tonsils in awe sometimes when I see some of them for the first time -- the "wow factor"), but I think the local opinion is, "well show 'em, we'll build it back again, only higher and bigger." *that's where the robotic arms (both versions) of the space shuttle were built, and is also a centre for pharmaceutical R&D. Markham has a big IBM R&D centre, and Richmond is home to Macdonald Dettweiler [sp?], who designed and built RADARSAT, a Canadian remote sensing satellite which can look below the earth's surface using radar. "John W. Redelfs" wrote: > I think it is hubris to imagine we should build towers still taller than > the WTC. Sure they can build them, but the experience with the WTC proves > that someone else can knock them down. What is the point? Why make > buildings a tempting target unnecessarily? I should think that the > builders of the WTC would have learned their lesson. Super tall building > are not a good idea. > -- Marc A. Schindler Spruce Grove, Alberta, Canada -- Gateway to the Boreal Parkland Knowledge may give weight, but accomplishments give lustre, and many more people see than weigh. Lord Chesterfield Note: This communication represents the informal personal views of the author solely; its contents do not necessarily reflect those of the authors employer, nor those of any organization with which the author may be associated. // /// ZION LIST CHARTER: Please read it at /// /// http://www.zionsbest.com/charter.html /// / ==^^=== This email was sent to: archive@jab.org EASY UNSUBSCRIBE click here: http://topica.com/u/?aaP9AU.bWix1n.YXJjaGl2 Or send an email to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] T O P I C A -- Register now to manage your mail! http://www.topica.com/partner/tag02/register ==^^===
Re: [ZION] Subject to natural law
We'll give you enough time for you and JWR to become gods, but no longer. We're an impatient bunch, ya know... George Cobabe wrote: > Give me some time John and I think I can demonstrate that this is not > necessarily so. > > George > > - Original Message - > From: "John W. Redelfs" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> > To: <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> > Sent: Wednesday, December 18, 2002 7:23 PM > Subject: Re: [ZION] Subject to natural law > > > Jim Cobabe favored us with: > > >I think it is not doctrinal to assert that Heavenly Father is "subject > > >to natural law" in the same sense that we are. To put it thus > > >incorrectly reverses the attribution of cause. > > > > > >God decreed the laws of the universe, and sustains them by the word of > > >His power--the laws are subordinate to Him. They are becase He is. He > > >acts in a manner consistent with the laws of His own decree, not because > > >He is "subject" to natural law, but because "natural" laws are _His_ > > >laws. > > > > It is my understanding of Mormon doctrine that the laws by which Heavenly > > Father became and exalted being are coeternal with him. They are > > uncreate. And it was by obedience to these laws that he because > > God. Remember, he was once a mortal man. The idea that he made all the > > laws included those by which he progressed to become a God is a Protestant > > idea. It is akin to creating something from nothing, which of course is > > impossible even for God. > > > > > > John W. Redelfs [EMAIL PROTECTED] > > *** > > "...by proving contraries, truth is made manifest" --Joseph > > Smith, History of the Church, Volume 6, p.248 > > *** > > All my opinions are tentative pending further data. --JWR > > > > > > // > > /// ZION LIST CHARTER: Please read it at /// > > /// http://www.zionsbest.com/charter.html /// > > > //////// > / > > > > > > > > // > /// ZION LIST CHARTER: Please read it at /// > /// http://www.zionsbest.com/charter.html /// > / > -- Marc A. Schindler Spruce Grove, Alberta, Canada -- Gateway to the Boreal Parkland Knowledge may give weight, but accomplishments give lustre, and many more people see than weigh. Lord Chesterfield Note: This communication represents the informal personal views of the author solely; its contents do not necessarily reflect those of the authors employer, nor those of any organization with which the author may be associated. // /// ZION LIST CHARTER: Please read it at /// /// http://www.zionsbest.com/charter.html /// / ==^^=== This email was sent to: archive@jab.org EASY UNSUBSCRIBE click here: http://topica.com/u/?aaP9AU.bWix1n.YXJjaGl2 Or send an email to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] T O P I C A -- Register now to manage your mail! http://www.topica.com/partner/tag02/register ==^^===
Re: [ZION] Subject to natural law
You've said it much more coherently and succinctly than I did. Thanks. As I've
explained in a separate post to Stephen, it depends on what you mean by "natural"
law. There are, I think, two connotations, one an earthly ("corruptible") sense
and one an eternal ("incorruptible") sense, but not "magic" -- that's
Protestantism, as you rightly point out.
"John W. Redelfs" wrote:
> It is my understanding of Mormon doctrine that the laws by which Heavenly
> Father became and exalted being are coeternal with him. They are
> uncreate. And it was by obedience to these laws that he because
> God. Remember, he was once a mortal man. The idea that he made all the
> laws included those by which he progressed to become a God is a Protestant
> idea. It is akin to creating something from nothing, which of course is
> impossible even for God.
>
--
Marc A. Schindler
Spruce Grove, Alberta, Canada -- Gateway to the Boreal Parkland
Knowledge may give weight, but accomplishments give lustre, and many more people
see than weigh. Lord Chesterfield
Note: This communication represents the informal personal views of the author
solely; its contents do not necessarily reflect those of the authors employer,
nor those of any organization with which the author may be associated.
//
/// ZION LIST CHARTER: Please read it at ///
/// http://www.zionsbest.com/charter.html ///
/
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Re: [ZION] New guy
"John W. Redelfs" wrote: > It would have been nice if you had joined me in my protest, Marc. I don't > remember hearing a peep from you. There is a bishop in my stake who is a > longtime Mormon-L-er, and he didn't say anything either. Bob Westover > didn't say anything either. I wasn't so disgusted with Richard Russell's > blasphemy. I expected as much from him. But the lack of protest persuaded > me that I had no place on the list. I was truly offended by the lack of > protest. You know what would have happened if someone had said something > negative about D. Michael Quinn. > > Aw... nevermind. It is all ancient history. Well, I guess we remember it differently. But my style on Mormon-L, where I kind of considered myself a self-appointed "home teacher" in the same sense I am responsible for the "no contacts" in our ward* is such that I wasn't going to come out and call people blasphemers or whatever, but I distinctly remember asking that people observe the golden rule; that just as they didn't like some of your characterizations of liberals, they, too, should show some respect and common decency. Also, as I recall, it was RR who made the remark, I believe it was PB. But I could be mistaken. Probably neither one of us cares enough about it to search Mormon-L's archives. And I also remember on more than one occasion writing exactly, "I'm with John on this one," although I can't remember offhand what the issues were at the time. And I wasn't the only one -- there were other "TBM's" there, too. Some didn't stick around very long, mind you. I'm not on Mormon-L anymore in any case; I cut back a lot of my Internet activity for various reasons, but mostly because of my health. *so what does a "no contact" home teacher do? He sends out monthly newsletters, with a bit of eye-catching news to get their interest (say, like about Burton Cummings) and adds a spiritual message (my last one was from a book by Sis. Ozaki). > > > John W. Redelfs [EMAIL PROTECTED] > === > At present, the Book of Mormon is studied in our Sunday > School and seminary classes every fourth year. This > four-year pattern, however, must not be followed by > Church members in their personal and family study. We > need to read daily from the pages of the book that will get > a man "nearer to God by abiding by its precepts, than by > any other book." (Ezra Taft Benson, October 1988) > === > All my opinions are tentative pending further data. --JWR > > ////// > /// ZION LIST CHARTER: Please read it at /// > /// http://www.zionsbest.com/charter.html /// > / > -- Marc A. Schindler Spruce Grove, Alberta, Canada -- Gateway to the Boreal Parkland Knowledge may give weight, but accomplishments give lustre, and many more people see than weigh. Lord Chesterfield Note: This communication represents the informal personal views of the author solely; its contents do not necessarily reflect those of the authors employer, nor those of any organization with which the author may be associated. // /// ZION LIST CHARTER: Please read it at /// /// http://www.zionsbest.com/charter.html /// / ==^^=== This email was sent to: archive@jab.org EASY UNSUBSCRIBE click here: http://topica.com/u/?aaP9AU.bWix1n.YXJjaGl2 Or send an email to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] T O P I C A -- Register now to manage your mail! http://www.topica.com/partner/tag02/register ==^^===
Re: [ZION] Microsoft interview questions
There is a carob bean, actually, and I know it's grown in tropical climates, but that's about all I know about it. I'm not sure what they do with it, except perhaps use its oil (like canola, linseed or safflower). This reminds me of an incident that happened when JWR was at our house. I said the word "amalgam" but pronounced it AM-al-gam. John wanted to know if that was a Canadian pronunciation, as he'd always said ah-MAL-gam. And he was right -- I had put the em-PHAS-is on the wrong syl-LAB-le. I guess I just hadn't heard the word spoken often enough for its pronunciation to sink in. There are a lot of words like that that I've encountered while reading, that I'd be too embarrassed to say out loud for fear I'd be mangling the pronunciation -- the sure sign of an over-dilettantish but sincere amateur ;-) ...I just did a google search and found an FAO publication which says it's also known as the locust bean, and its gum is apparently used as a laxative. Now you know I couldn't have just made that one up! Ya learn something knew every day... Stephen Beecroft wrote: > -Marc- > > No wonder Microsoft's spellchecker is so lousy ;-) (carabiners, > > from a German word for "carbine hook". > > Ah. I had never seen/heard the term, and the guy (Russian) > called/spelled them "carob-beaners". I wondered how that term had come > about. What's a "carob bean", anyway? > > But I had nothing to do with Microsoft's spell-checker. Otherwise, it > wouldn't suggest "Bereft" every time I write my name. > > > IIRC, aren't Italy's alpine police known as carabinieri?) > > Yes, the special forces guys who carry machine guns. Also known as > carob-beaners. > Ah, so maybe "carob" is the north Italian word (what's that funny Rhaeto-Romanish dialect they speak up in some of the valleys in the Alps near the Swiss border, Ladino or something like that?) for "head." They bop people on the carobs with their machine guns. -- Marc A. Schindler Spruce Grove, Alberta, Canada -- Gateway to the Boreal Parkland Knowledge may give weight, but accomplishments give lustre, and many more people see than weigh. Lord Chesterfield Note: This communication represents the informal personal views of the author solely; its contents do not necessarily reflect those of the authors employer, nor those of any organization with which the author may be associated. // /// ZION LIST CHARTER: Please read it at /// /// http://www.zionsbest.com/charter.html /// / ==^^=== This email was sent to: archive@jab.org EASY UNSUBSCRIBE click here: http://topica.com/u/?aaP9AU.bWix1n.YXJjaGl2 Or send an email to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] T O P I C A -- Register now to manage your mail! http://www.topica.com/partner/tag02/register ==^^===
Re: [ZION] LOTR
Ah, well, that's the connection, then, since even I knew that Cronenberg is Canadian (I do really lousy on the "pink" questions in Trivial Pursuit). Tom Matkin wrote: > Marc makes an admission of rare ignorance of things Canadian: > > > > > I don't know. Tom, Mark? > > Turns out that Howard Shore is a Canadian and that he cut his composing > teeth on those old David Cronenberg suspense movies like "The Fly" and > "Scanners". I actually own a 1/2000 share of "Scanners" although I > don't think I've ever watched it and I'm sure it never came to my > attention until today that it had a musical score. I just looked all > this up on Google. Well except for the part about my tax shelter > investment in Canadian movie classics, "Scanners" "Hog Wild" and > something else starring Elliott Gould and Tatum O'Neal that I forget and > no one else remembers either. Sadly the residuals stopped rolling in a > long time ago. Long before the capital investment was recovered even, if > you can believe it. Anyway I guess this connection means that Howard and > I are practically like brothers, since we are both Canadians and have > such a deep interest in the cinematic arts. So I recant my prior > disinterest in the LOTR movies. Ya gotta love 'em fer the music, if > nothing else, eh? And is my memory on this right or have I forgotten > this too, wasn't the LOTR music really loud? Loud enough to blow the top > right off of your head maybe? Ooops, that's the plot line for > "Scanners". My mistake. > > Tom > > > > > "John W. Redelfs" wrote: > > > > > Is it true that Howard Shore, the composer of the music for The Lord > of > > the > > > Rings, is a Canadian? Regardless, my hat is off to him. The music > is > > one > > > of the best things about the movie. Of course, that is just my > humble > > > opinion. --JWR > > > > > > > -- > > Marc A. Schindler > > Spruce Grove, Alberta, Canada -- Gateway to the Boreal Parkland > > > > "Knowledge may give weight, but accomplishments give lustre, and many > more > > people > > see than weigh." - Lord Chesterfield > > > > Note: This communication represents the informal personal views of the > > author > > solely; its contents do not necessarily reflect those of the author's > > employer, > > nor those of any organization with which the author may be associated. > > > > > > // > > > > /// ZION LIST CHARTER: Please read it at /// > > /// http://www.zionsbest.com/charter.html /// > > > > // > > /// > > > > // > /// ZION LIST CHARTER: Please read it at /// > /// http://www.zionsbest.com/charter.html /// > / > -- Marc A. Schindler Spruce Grove, Alberta, Canada -- Gateway to the Boreal Parkland Knowledge may give weight, but accomplishments give lustre, and many more people see than weigh. Lord Chesterfield Note: This communication represents the informal personal views of the author solely; its contents do not necessarily reflect those of the authors employer, nor those of any organization with which the author may be associated. // /// ZION LIST CHARTER: Please read it at /// /// http://www.zionsbest.com/charter.html /// / ==^^=== This email was sent to: archive@jab.org EASY UNSUBSCRIBE click here: http://topica.com/u/?aaP9AU.bWix1n.YXJjaGl2 Or send an email to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] T O P I C A -- Register now to manage your mail! http://www.topica.com/partner/tag02/register ==^^===
Re: [ZION] Curiosity About Alma 1:21
I think we just need to be careful how we're using the terms. If I may be a bit presumptuous, there is a sense in which I would agree with you, if you're using the term the way Kent P. Jackson does: [studies in Scripture, vol. 7:1] The Creation There is a tendency for people in our generation to discount the "special creation" account of the origin of our heaven and earth as related in the Bible. The modern trend is to accept a "naturalistic" or "mechanistic" view of the origin of our solar system, including our earth and all things upon it. fn Such a view proposes that these things came into existence by chanceby the strict operation of "natural law" rather than by God's purposes being fulfilled as a result of his wisdom and power. This mechanistic view looks upon natural law as eternal or self-existent and as determining absolutely what happens to physical matter over a given time. There is no allowance for a divine or supernatural power of any kind over physical matter. fn Such a view leaves no room for a God who has all knowledge and who thinks and plans (no divine purpose in the universe); fn for a sovereign God who is all powerful fn and who is the author of natural law (a God who has control or power directly over physical matter); fn or for miracles or divine intervention (God cannot change or revoke natural law). fn This "mechanistic" view also eliminates the spiritual realm in the universe wherein spirit matter (with "intelligence") can influence or control physical or other spirit matter. This assumes that the spirit matter does not exist; fn people, animals, and plants do not have spirits; fn there is no such thing as a God with a spirit; fn and there is no influence whatsoever from God to the spirits of people fn or to anything else in the universe. fn Obviously this view also eliminates revelation, so there can be no such thing as commandments from God. Such a view relegates man (and other "living" creatures) to a position of being mere physical machines with no agency or freedom to act by themselves. fn They can only be acted upon, since all actions or events are determined completely by preceding physical events and subsequent operation of natural law. But that's not the way I was using the term, and I disagree with his choice of several words, including "supernatural." In any case, I am using it the way Joseph Fielding Smith did, e.g., in Man: His Origin and Destiny (484): A miracle is not, as many believe, the setting aside or overruling natural laws. Every miracle performed in Biblical days or now, is done on natural principles and in obedience to natural law. The healing of the sick, the raising of the dead, giving eyesight to the blind, whatever it may be that is done by the power of God, is in accordance with natural law. Because we do not understand how it is done, does not argue for the impossibility of it. Our Father in heaven knows many laws that are hidden from us. And the way James E. Talmage did in Jesus the Christ (81): That Child to be born of Mary was begotten of Elohim, the Eternal Father, not in violation of natural law but in accordance with a higher manifestation thereof; and, the offspring from that association of supreme sanctity, celestial Sireship, and pure though mortal maternity, was of right to be called the 'Son of the Highest.' The problem arises out of the word "natural," and is a limitation of our language. By natural are we referring to the corruptible telestial world, or are we referring simply to the fact that there are higher laws which are "natural" but which operate in *their* realms, and which we by their and our very nature cannot comprehend? I'm using the term in its latter connotation. Stephen Beecroft wrote: > -Marc- > > We LDS do *not* believe God is omnipotent in the sense the Romans > > used this term -- we believe he's subject to "natural law," > > Perhaps you believe so. I don't. God's word defines "natural law". He is > the master, not the subject. That is why he is called the Lawgiver. > > Stephen > > ////// > /// ZION LIST CHARTER: Please read it at /// > /// http://www.zionsbest.com/charter.html /// > / > -- Marc A. Schindler Spruce Grove, Alberta, Canada -- Gateway to the Boreal Parkland Knowledge may give weight, but accomplishments give lustre, and many more people see than weigh. Lord Chesterfield Note: This communication represents the informal personal views of the author solely; its contents do not necessarily reflect those of the authors employer, nor those of any organ
Re: [ZION] Curiosity About Alma 1:21
Jim Cobabe wrote: > It is instructive that many of the revisionists who spin this "deist" > misinformation, primarily about Jefferson, are openly and dogmatically > promoting their own flavor of atheist or agnostic evangelism. There is > really no compelling documentation to support their arguments, and every > evidence to suggest that Jefferson, at least, was a devoutly and > fervently religious man in his own right. > > Is it really an issue with you? Are you sure you want to go down that road? -- Marc A. Schindler Spruce Grove, Alberta, Canada -- Gateway to the Boreal Parkland Knowledge may give weight, but accomplishments give lustre, and many more people see than weigh. Lord Chesterfield Note: This communication represents the informal personal views of the author solely; its contents do not necessarily reflect those of the authors employer, nor those of any organization with which the author may be associated. // /// ZION LIST CHARTER: Please read it at /// /// http://www.zionsbest.com/charter.html /// / ==^^=== This email was sent to: archive@jab.org EASY UNSUBSCRIBE click here: http://topica.com/u/?aaP9AU.bWix1n.YXJjaGl2 Or send an email to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] T O P I C A -- Register now to manage your mail! http://www.topica.com/partner/tag02/register ==^^===
Re: [ZION] Curiosity About Alma 1:21
Geoff FOWLER wrote: > > > I also agree that we do not understand *how* God's omniscience works. > However, any discussion of the attributes of God falls under what you > term as "trying to fit God into a box we can understand." Since we are > not like Him yet, and hence do not understand everything He does, we > have to use those terms and concepts that we do understand, while at the > same time recognizing that perhaps we will never truly understand any of > these attributes fully until we arrive on the other side of the veil. > Until then, we work by faith and our comprehension increases line by > line, precept by precept... as the Spirit presents this knowledge to > us. > Exactly, which is why I kept warning that I was a hammer looking for nails. That's another way of saying my own speculation was a box, too, with its own boundaries. None of us is [yet] "out of the box," so to speak. > > Unfortunately for me, my understanding of mathematics is just as > limited. I know, I know, I need to repent. :) > Heavens, yes! That's as bad as falling asleep during "the Begatitudes" ;-) -- Marc A. Schindler Spruce Grove, Alberta, Canada -- Gateway to the Boreal Parkland Knowledge may give weight, but accomplishments give lustre, and many more people see than weigh. Lord Chesterfield Note: This communication represents the informal personal views of the author solely; its contents do not necessarily reflect those of the authors employer, nor those of any organization with which the author may be associated. // /// ZION LIST CHARTER: Please read it at /// /// http://www.zionsbest.com/charter.html /// / ==^^=== This email was sent to: archive@jab.org EASY UNSUBSCRIBE click here: http://topica.com/u/?aaP9AU.bWix1n.YXJjaGl2 Or send an email to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] T O P I C A -- Register now to manage your mail! http://www.topica.com/partner/tag02/register ==^^===
Re: [ZION] Subject to natural law
Jim Cobabe wrote: > I think it is not doctrinal to assert that Heavenly Father is "subject > to natural law" in the same sense that we are. To put it thus > incorrectly reverses the attribution of cause. > Ah, there's a crucial difference there: "that we are." I would agree with your modified statement, but then that's not quite what I wrote originally. We don't know what it means to say that God is subject to "natural" law because we are only beginning to understand the laws that govern our realm, let alone any realm that transcends ours. But the statement itself, without the qualification, is from Joseph Smith. > > God decreed the laws of the universe, and sustains them by the word of > His power--the laws are subordinate to Him. They are becase He is. He > acts in a manner consistent with the laws of His own decree, not because > He is "subject" to natural law, but because "natural" laws are _His_ > laws. > Hmm, I'll have to think about that one. I'm not sure I'd agree with your statement as it's written. I think he's subject to a natural law that is higher than the ones we're subject to. But he's still subject to *some* kind of natural law. A parallel is our unique claim that spirit is "refined matter." That means it's matter, but it's not what Paul would call "corruptible", but rather "incorruptible." What does that mean? We don't really know yet. > > He is the ultimate source--not a subject. > This is where you can fall into a word trap if you're not careful. St. Anselm is best known for what's known in philosophy as the ontological argument for the existence of God. But Anselm believed in creatio ex nihilo and that God was the "prime mover". His argument was that for our world to have come into being, there had to be a being behind its creation. But we don't believe in this -- we certainly believe God created the world, I'm not disputing that, but we don't believe God is the "ultimate cause" in the philosophical sense. We believe that God was once as we are, which implies all kinds of things. Those implications, which many early brethren speculated about, are exactly that: speculations. But it's clear that we do not share the Roman church's philosophical foundations with respect to the nature of God. -- Marc A. Schindler Spruce Grove, Alberta, Canada -- Gateway to the Boreal Parkland Knowledge may give weight, but accomplishments give lustre, and many more people see than weigh. Lord Chesterfield Note: This communication represents the informal personal views of the author solely; its contents do not necessarily reflect those of the authors employer, nor those of any organization with which the author may be associated. // /// ZION LIST CHARTER: Please read it at /// /// http://www.zionsbest.com/charter.html /// / ==^^=== This email was sent to: archive@jab.org EASY UNSUBSCRIBE click here: http://topica.com/u/?aaP9AU.bWix1n.YXJjaGl2 Or send an email to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] T O P I C A -- Register now to manage your mail! http://www.topica.com/partner/tag02/register ==^^===
[ZION] Iraq
I can't say "I told you so" yet but Bush has announced today that despite the omissions in the report on WMD delivered by Iraq to the UN (and only today being given to the non-permanent members of the Security Council, incidentally), war is not imminent. I've been of the opinion since this issue arose that there won't be a war in Iraq, that the situation is at least as much about domestic US politics as it is with anything actually going on in Iraq and that we'd see a gradual backing down once the mid-term elections were past. I could be wrong -- I guess we'll see. http://my.netscape.com/corewidgets/news/story.psp?cat=51180&id=200212181727000163465 -- Marc A. Schindler Spruce Grove, Alberta, Canada -- Gateway to the Boreal Parkland Knowledge may give weight, but accomplishments give lustre, and many more people see than weigh. Lord Chesterfield Note: This communication represents the informal personal views of the author solely; its contents do not necessarily reflect those of the authors employer, nor those of any organization with which the author may be associated. // /// ZION LIST CHARTER: Please read it at /// /// http://www.zionsbest.com/charter.html /// / ==^^=== This email was sent to: archive@jab.org EASY UNSUBSCRIBE click here: http://topica.com/u/?aaP9AU.bWix1n.YXJjaGl2 Or send an email to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] T O P I C A -- Register now to manage your mail! http://www.topica.com/partner/tag02/register ==^^===
[ZION] New WTC plans announced
New York has decided to go with a mixture of skyscrapers and memoria, although the exact plan has yet to be chosen. The new towers will surpass the Petronas Towers in Kuala Lumpur (currently the world's tallest building[s]), although not, iiirc, one or two buildings proposed for Shanghai and Hong Kong: http://www.cnn.com/2002/US/Northeast/12/18/wtc.rebuilding/index.html -- Marc A. Schindler Spruce Grove, Alberta, Canada -- Gateway to the Boreal Parkland Knowledge may give weight, but accomplishments give lustre, and many more people see than weigh. Lord Chesterfield Note: This communication represents the informal personal views of the author solely; its contents do not necessarily reflect those of the authors employer, nor those of any organization with which the author may be associated. // /// ZION LIST CHARTER: Please read it at /// /// http://www.zionsbest.com/charter.html /// / ==^^=== This email was sent to: archive@jab.org EASY UNSUBSCRIBE click here: http://topica.com/u/?aaP9AU.bWix1n.YXJjaGl2 Or send an email to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] T O P I C A -- Register now to manage your mail! http://www.topica.com/partner/tag02/register ==^^===
Re: [ZION] Microsoft interview questions
Stephen Beecroft wrote: > The funnest thing about interviewing at Microsoft are the famous (or > infamous) "interview questions", of which you're likely to get at least > one per interview. A classic example is: > > You have three closed barrels in front of you, one filled with black > marbles, one filled with white marbles, and one filled with a mix of > black and white marbles. You also have three labels, one to a barrel, > reading "Black", "White", and "Mixed". You are told that each barrel has > the wrong sign on it. You are allowed to draw one marble from a barrel. > What is the least number of marbles you can draw to put the signs > aright, and from which barrel(s) do you draw it/them? *(Answer below) > > Here's one I just got this afternoon that I hadn't heard before, though > I'm pretty sure it's an old question: > > You wish to market a climbing chain consisting of some lengths of chain > that can be joined together by carob-beaners (removeable links). Regular No wonder Microsoft's spellchecker is so lousy ;-) (carabiners, from a German word for "carbine hook". IIRC, aren't Italy's alpine police known as carabinieri?) [as in "cheap spelling flame] -- Marc A. Schindler Spruce Grove, Alberta, Canada -- Gateway to the Boreal Parkland Knowledge may give weight, but accomplishments give lustre, and many more people see than weigh. Lord Chesterfield Note: This communication represents the informal personal views of the author solely; its contents do not necessarily reflect those of the authors employer, nor those of any organization with which the author may be associated. // /// ZION LIST CHARTER: Please read it at /// /// http://www.zionsbest.com/charter.html /// / ==^^=== This email was sent to: archive@jab.org EASY UNSUBSCRIBE click here: http://topica.com/u/?aaP9AU.bWix1n.YXJjaGl2 Or send an email to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] T O P I C A -- Register now to manage your mail! http://www.topica.com/partner/tag02/register ==^^===
Re: [ZION] Curiosity About Alma 1:21
Believe me, I don't mind being called to task when I'm wrong. Now, I have to admit, sometimes I don't always agree I'm wrong, but that's a course of a different holler. George Cobabe wrote: > There was no misunderstanding - most everyone knew that you had erred. I > was just impolite enough to point it out. > > Therefore it is I that must beg forgiveness for my rudeness in pointing out > error. > > I will try to be more polite in the future, when you make other mistakes > regarding US history, intentions, and policy. :-) > > George -- Marc A. Schindler Spruce Grove, Alberta, Canada -- Gateway to the Boreal Parkland Knowledge may give weight, but accomplishments give lustre, and many more people see than weigh. Lord Chesterfield Note: This communication represents the informal personal views of the author solely; its contents do not necessarily reflect those of the authors employer, nor those of any organization with which the author may be associated. // /// ZION LIST CHARTER: Please read it at /// /// http://www.zionsbest.com/charter.html /// / ==^^=== This email was sent to: archive@jab.org EASY UNSUBSCRIBE click here: http://topica.com/u/?aaP9AU.bWix1n.YXJjaGl2 Or send an email to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] T O P I C A -- Register now to manage your mail! http://www.topica.com/partner/tag02/register ==^^===
Re: [ZION] Curiosity About Alma 1:21
c truth" with "historical truth." This is also known (I think BKP said this) as "tripping over their own professionalism." There is a middle ground where have to admit we don't always know what scriptures mean. Handy for us we have a prophet around, as only a prophet can "re-read" an earlier prophet's statements and apply them to his own jurisdiction. That's a fundamental difference between us and both the liberals and the literalists. -- Marc A. Schindler Spruce Grove, Alberta, Canada -- Gateway to the Boreal Parkland Knowledge may give weight, but accomplishments give lustre, and many more people see than weigh. Lord Chesterfield Note: This communication represents the informal personal views of the author solely; its contents do not necessarily reflect those of the authors employer, nor those of any organization with which the author may be associated. // /// ZION LIST CHARTER: Please read it at /// /// http://www.zionsbest.com/charter.html /// / ==^^=== This email was sent to: archive@jab.org EASY UNSUBSCRIBE click here: http://topica.com/u/?aaP9AU.bWix1n.YXJjaGl2 Or send an email to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] T O P I C A -- Register now to manage your mail! http://www.topica.com/partner/tag02/register ==^^===
Re: [ZION] LOTR
I don't know. Tom, Mark? "John W. Redelfs" wrote: > Is it true that Howard Shore, the composer of the music for The Lord of the > Rings, is a Canadian? Regardless, my hat is off to him. The music is one > of the best things about the movie. Of course, that is just my humble > opinion. --JWR > -- Marc A. Schindler Spruce Grove, Alberta, Canada -- Gateway to the Boreal Parkland Knowledge may give weight, but accomplishments give lustre, and many more people see than weigh. Lord Chesterfield Note: This communication represents the informal personal views of the author solely; its contents do not necessarily reflect those of the authors employer, nor those of any organization with which the author may be associated. // /// ZION LIST CHARTER: Please read it at /// /// http://www.zionsbest.com/charter.html /// / ==^^=== This email was sent to: archive@jab.org EASY UNSUBSCRIBE click here: http://topica.com/u/?aaP9AU.bWix1n.YXJjaGl2 Or send an email to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] T O P I C A -- Register now to manage your mail! http://www.topica.com/partner/tag02/register ==^^===
Re: [ZION] The latest from Iraq
Are you saying that the following doesn't say the US saw it first? "The U.S. government has made copies of the Iraqi weapons declaration and distributed them to the five permanent members of the U.N. Security Council and other council members with expertise to assess the declaration for proliferation-sensitive information, State Department deputy spokesman Philip Reeker said at the daily media briefing in Washington December 10. " Reeker said once such information has been deleted, a working document will be made available to other members of the council as soon as possible." And again, in the Q&A session: "Question: There have been some grumblings on the sideline about Washington taking the first set of documents and whisking them down here to copy them off. Have you received any messages like that from Permanent 5 members or other Security Council members? " Mr. Reeker: No. And, in fact, all Permanent 5 members have their copies, as I think we talked about yesterday. As I mentioned, based on the Council president's decision -- which was an appropriate one and consistent with the resolution -- we assisted in ensuring the safeguards against release, transmission of proliferation-sensitive information, making sure that that was not jeopardized. " So we did the copying of this. We got the copies to all of those members with that expertise and all together we will be assessing the full document to see about proliferation-sensitive information so that then we can make available to other members of the Council a working document as soon as possible." Now tell me: how is it possible to do copying for others when you don't have the document yourself to begin with? [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: > Marc Schindler: > > This just isn't true, I'm afraid. They were *delivered* to the > Security Council, but the US still managed to get first crack > at them. An excerpt from the US State Dept. briefing: ... > > ___ > > This just is true, I'm afraid. And your excerpt begins by > saying just what I said. > > That you wish to ascribe special motives to the person > running the copy center is your prerogative. That you feel > the spokesman was not appropriate because the US > didn't do it the way you think it would have been done in > Canada is also your prerogative. > That was not my point at all. Please reread it. It was referring to an earlier thread where some people on this list assumed that Francie Ducros was a "politician" because they were used to seeing presidential and cabinet spokespeople making statements, which doesn't happen in parliamentary systems. > > Enjoy your prerogative. > It's not my prerogative you're criticizing, it's a straw man you're criticizing. You are not criticizing what I wrote, but how you *read* it. -- Marc A. Schindler Spruce Grove, Alberta, Canada -- Gateway to the Boreal Parkland Knowledge may give weight, but accomplishments give lustre, and many more people see than weigh. Lord Chesterfield Note: This communication represents the informal personal views of the author solely; its contents do not necessarily reflect those of the authors employer, nor those of any organization with which the author may be associated. // /// ZION LIST CHARTER: Please read it at /// /// http://www.zionsbest.com/charter.html /// / ==^^=== This email was sent to: archive@jab.org EASY UNSUBSCRIBE click here: http://topica.com/u/?aaP9AU.bWix1n.YXJjaGl2 Or send an email to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] T O P I C A -- Register now to manage your mail! http://www.topica.com/partner/tag02/register ==^^===
Re: [ZION] Tobacco interests lose a big one in Canada; LDS involvement
We don't have the same tradition of class action suits here like you do in the US. Tort reform is a hot topic in the US these days, too, as I recall -- one of the reasons was some particular damages that were awarded by juries in Mississippi (the Loewen case comes to mind). Perhaps Tom can comment further if he has the time and inclination. What's embarrassing is that Ken Kyle was in my stake when we lived in Ottawa, and he says he remembers us, but I can't remember him -- I know the name, but can't remember the face. Anyway, I thought listmembers might be proud that some Saints are having influence for the good in high places. Chet wrote: > Marc A. Schindler wrote a lotta stuff I'm not even gonna try to keep up > with. Mainly, it said that tobacco companies are getting beat on in > Canada. > > I hope so. I really hope so. Because in this country, the tobacco > companies are being "beaten on" by being sued. They raise their prices, > so that everyone wins: the government gets more money, the tobacco > companies get more money, the smokers are gonna smoke no matter what, > and a good portion of the revenue from the lawsuits go NOT to stop > smoking -- but to subsidize tobacco farmers. > > Please tell me Canada's not going to go the same route. > > *jeep! > --Chet > "Start by doing what's necessary, then what's possible, and suddenly you > are doing the impossible." > > // > /// ZION LIST CHARTER: Please read it at /// > /// http://www.zionsbest.com/charter.html /// > / > -- Marc A. Schindler Spruce Grove, Alberta, Canada -- Gateway to the Boreal Parkland Knowledge may give weight, but accomplishments give lustre, and many more people see than weigh. Lord Chesterfield Note: This communication represents the informal personal views of the author solely; its contents do not necessarily reflect those of the authors employer, nor those of any organization with which the author may be associated. // /// ZION LIST CHARTER: Please read it at /// /// http://www.zionsbest.com/charter.html /// / ==^^=== This email was sent to: archive@jab.org EASY UNSUBSCRIBE click here: http://topica.com/u/?aaP9AU.bWix1n.YXJjaGl2 Or send an email to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] T O P I C A -- Register now to manage your mail! http://www.topica.com/partner/tag02/register ==^^===
Re: [ZION] Curiosity About Alma 1:21
"John W. Redelfs" wrote: > Marc A. Schindler favored us with: > > > Obviously yes because we know from the Doctrine and Covenants that the > > > Founding Fathers of the United States were inspired men raised up by God to > > > rebel against Britain. > > > >It actually doesn't say this. See below. > > But it does say that the US Founders were raised up by God to write the > Constitution. Indeed. > And it is hard to imagine how that Constitution could have > been written if we had remain colonies. This is also true, but it's a logical extension of the first, not something that's said explicitly to be inspired. I know it's a nit, but I think the Lord uses historical events, he doesn't "cause" them, else we wouldn't have free will*. His plan is so elegant that His kingdom will come regardless of what choices humanity makes. I don't profess to understand how that's possible, although some of my studies of chaotic systems in mathematics show that in principle what appears to be random and chaotic can have a pre-determined result, although not a result that can be figured out by our current mathematics (cellular automata comes close, but the problem is always knowing the initial conditions, and if the Big Bang was actually how our universe was created, those initial conditions are forever lost if we go back extrapolating in time, lost in the great singularity of the first 10^-43 seconds. *I'll give you an example. I know what I'm going to write may offend some, and I apologize for that in advance; it's not meant to be offensive. However, I do remember one GA (and not ETB; in fact I believe it was DOM) saying, referring to the famous vision of Wilford Woodruff (where he was directed to do the temple work for the founding fathers), that all the founding fathers were men who believed in Christ's divinity and atonement. But in secular history it didn't quite work out that way. Thomas Jefferson was a deist; these days he would probably be a Unitarian, and Benjamin Franklin was not an observing Christian, either, from what I remember. I'm not saying he was an atheist, but iirc, his own thinking tended towards deism as well (the difference between deism and theism is that both believe there's a "higher power" but the deist doesn't believe it's a personal entity whereas theism does). Thomas Jefferson was very much a Renaissance man, and was accomplished in many areas. One of the things he did was kind of a precursor to the modern, so-called "Jesus Seminar," sponsored by the Westar Institute. That is, Jefferson rewrote the New Testament so it only included what he felt were the original sayings of Jesus, and that excluded any references to miracles, let alone the atonement and resurrection. Again, no offence is meant, but God uses the materials at hand, so to speak, he doesn't override people's free will. > So, while "it actually doesn't say > this," it is implied very strongly. --JWR -- Marc A. Schindler Spruce Grove, Alberta, Canada -- Gateway to the Boreal Parkland Knowledge may give weight, but accomplishments give lustre, and many more people see than weigh. Lord Chesterfield Note: This communication represents the informal personal views of the author solely; its contents do not necessarily reflect those of the authors employer, nor those of any organization with which the author may be associated. // /// ZION LIST CHARTER: Please read it at /// /// http://www.zionsbest.com/charter.html /// / ==^^=== This email was sent to: archive@jab.org EASY UNSUBSCRIBE click here: http://topica.com/u/?aaP9AU.bWix1n.YXJjaGl2 Or send an email to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] T O P I C A -- Register now to manage your mail! http://www.topica.com/partner/tag02/register ==^^===
Re: [ZION] Curiosity About Alma 1:21
Yeah, and I think I made it even worse when I was trying to figure out how I got the two dates mixed up, and the only thing I was thinking of that could have made a neural short like that was de Tocqueville, but later I recalled that he made his famous tour *after* the Revolution. So, I guess it was just a simple slip. My apologies for any misunderstanding. "John W. Redelfs" wrote: > George Cobabe favored us with: > >Hate to be picky Marc, but the French Revolution is generally thought to > >have occurred between 1789 and 1799, sometime after the American Revolution. > >You might recall the keys dates of 1776 and 1782 for America. I think it > >was the French following the American example. > > He's got you there, Marc. It is unusual for you to make such a gaffe. You > must be having a bad day. --JWR > -- Marc A. Schindler Spruce Grove, Alberta, Canada -- Gateway to the Boreal Parkland Knowledge may give weight, but accomplishments give lustre, and many more people see than weigh. Lord Chesterfield Note: This communication represents the informal personal views of the author solely; its contents do not necessarily reflect those of the authors employer, nor those of any organization with which the author may be associated. // /// ZION LIST CHARTER: Please read it at /// /// http://www.zionsbest.com/charter.html /// / ==^^=== This email was sent to: archive@jab.org EASY UNSUBSCRIBE click here: http://topica.com/u/?aaP9AU.bWix1n.YXJjaGl2 Or send an email to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] T O P I C A -- Register now to manage your mail! http://www.topica.com/partner/tag02/register ==^^===
Re: [ZION] New guy
"John W. Redelfs" wrote: > Stacy Smith favored us with: > >Well, I'd like to know just how many such lists there are. Judging from > >other lists on other subjects, there must be hundreds out there. > > For a while I was the Open Directory Project editor in charge of listing > the LDS email discussion lists. There are 274 listed at the moment, but > few that generate enough traffic to actually sustain a > conversation. Probably the most active of all LDS lists is Mormon-L. But > it is not exactly a faith promoting experience. A couple of years ago I > promised I would never again participate there. I made the decision after > a list member referred to Boyd KKK Packer. That didn't disgust me so much > as the fact that no one on the list seemed outraged by it but myself. > Not "no one", actually. ;-) -- Marc A. Schindler Spruce Grove, Alberta, Canada -- Gateway to the Boreal Parkland Knowledge may give weight, but accomplishments give lustre, and many more people see than weigh. Lord Chesterfield Note: This communication represents the informal personal views of the author solely; its contents do not necessarily reflect those of the authors employer, nor those of any organization with which the author may be associated. // /// ZION LIST CHARTER: Please read it at /// /// http://www.zionsbest.com/charter.html /// / ==^^=== This email was sent to: archive@jab.org EASY UNSUBSCRIBE click here: http://topica.com/u/?aaP9AU.bWix1n.YXJjaGl2 Or send an email to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] T O P I C A -- Register now to manage your mail! http://www.topica.com/partner/tag02/register ==^^===
Re: [ZION] No biological basis for race
After all, it doesn't say the elect (like, say, a tall, young good-looking bishop) *will* be deceived, it only says they *could* be. Mark Gregson wrote: > > > Hey, wait, that's my part! You'se guys can't be stealing my part ... > > > > > > Till who even got a new costume for the next show > > In the spirit of Christmas, Till, I forgive you for tempting me to the utmost with >your provocative statements. That's a most humble forgiveness, too. > > = Mark Gregson [EMAIL PROTECTED] = > > > -- > ___ > Get your free email from http://mymail.operamail.com > > Powered by Outblaze > > // > /// ZION LIST CHARTER: Please read it at /// > /// http://www.zionsbest.com/charter.html /// > / > -- Marc A. Schindler Spruce Grove, Alberta, Canada -- Gateway to the Boreal Parkland Knowledge may give weight, but accomplishments give lustre, and many more people see than weigh. Lord Chesterfield Note: This communication represents the informal personal views of the author solely; its contents do not necessarily reflect those of the authors employer, nor those of any organization with which the author may be associated. // /// ZION LIST CHARTER: Please read it at /// /// http://www.zionsbest.com/charter.html /// / ==^^=== This email was sent to: archive@jab.org EASY UNSUBSCRIBE click here: http://topica.com/u/?aaP9AU.bWix1n.YXJjaGl2 Or send an email to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] T O P I C A -- Register now to manage your mail! http://www.topica.com/partner/tag02/register ==^^===
Re: [ZION] New Main Street Plaza proposal
Many thanks for the first-hand account. The story of what happened on the easement, as reported on KSL is making the rounds of the Internet. Odd (well, maybe not) that it takes idiots like Kurt Van Gordon to "p*** in their own manger," as my uncle used to say . KVG was the instigator behind most of the demonstrations, and who loves to try to sue anyone who 'defames' him [I only write this without trepidation because I am safely in Canada. Not that he couldn't hire a lawyer up here, but he'd have to find Canada first, as the old joke goes]. Anyway, he's well-known to many LDS apologists and is one of the more obnoxious breeds of anti-Mormons. Even the Tanners won't have anything to do with him. Jim Cobabe wrote: > The gathering at the city council meeting last night was a zoo. I got > there about 6:00. The public comment session was supposed to begin at > 7:00, but the crowd had already filled up two overflow rooms and was > winding down the corridors, and there were already many hundreds of > people waiting. > > A small group with a vocal presence was the most disruptive. These were > "Jesus" people, come to threaten the Mormons with hellfire and > damnation. Several of these gained the microphone during the open > period. They asserted that Jesus commands their belligerence and > rudeness. One of them asserted that the Pledge to the flag which began > the session should have been directed to Mormon dictatorship. > > Most of the speakers I heard were actually rather thoughtful, > notwithstanding the few nutty fanatics. Quite a number of them were > prominent members of the community. I don't know what collective wisdom > the city council might have derived, putting it all together, but it was > an interesting exercise in democracy. At least no one can complain that > there was no public forum in the decision-making process. > > One of the ideas that came to me while the anti-Mormon faction was > pounding the pulpit was that we ought to revive the spirit of Porter > Rockwell. These ugly public bullies would not be so bold if Rockwell > was around. > > I suggested eariler in a letter to the Deseret News that the "Whistling > and Whittling Brigade" might also be a good notion to resurrect. When > the Nauvoo Charter was revoked by Illinois in 1845, following the murder > of Joseph Smith, Nauvoo lost the legal right to enforce laws, and became > a target for troublemakers. Nauvoo Church leaders organized a gang of > young men to identify such parties as they entered the town. The boys > would press around these ill-intentioned characters, saying nothing to > them, but busily whistling and whittling, with an obvious display of a > lot of sharp knives. Apparently most of the bad men were immediately > discouraged and quickly left the town. > > Perhaps such a scheme could serve to preserve the peace at Temple Square > while the arguments continue. > > --- > Mij Ebaboc > > // > /// ZION LIST CHARTER: Please read it at /// > /// http://www.zionsbest.com/charter.html /// > / > -- Marc A. Schindler Spruce Grove, Alberta, Canada -- Gateway to the Boreal Parkland Knowledge may give weight, but accomplishments give lustre, and many more people see than weigh. Lord Chesterfield Note: This communication represents the informal personal views of the author solely; its contents do not necessarily reflect those of the authors employer, nor those of any organization with which the author may be associated. // /// ZION LIST CHARTER: Please read it at /// /// http://www.zionsbest.com/charter.html /// / ==^^=== This email was sent to: archive@jab.org EASY UNSUBSCRIBE click here: http://topica.com/u/?aaP9AU.bWix1n.YXJjaGl2 Or send an email to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] T O P I C A -- Register now to manage your mail! http://www.topica.com/partner/tag02/register ==^^===
[ZION] Tom Murphy
For those of you who are following the Tom Murphy affair (aka "DNA and the Lamanites"), you might be interested to know that Jeff Lindsay has recently updated his apologetics page on the topic: http://www.jefflindsay.com/LDSFAQ/DNA.shtml It's not written for a professional geneticist (which is not a bad thing) but is an excellent survey, imo. -- Marc A. Schindler Spruce Grove, Alberta, Canada -- Gateway to the Boreal Parkland Knowledge may give weight, but accomplishments give lustre, and many more people see than weigh. Lord Chesterfield Note: This communication represents the informal personal views of the author solely; its contents do not necessarily reflect those of the authors employer, nor those of any organization with which the author may be associated. -- [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] // /// ZION LIST CHARTER: Please read it at /// /// http://www.zionsbest.com/charter.html /// / ==^^=== This email was sent to: archive@jab.org EASY UNSUBSCRIBE click here: http://topica.com/u/?aaP9AU.bWix1n.YXJjaGl2 Or send an email to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] T O P I C A -- Register now to manage your mail! http://www.topica.com/partner/tag02/register ==^^===
[ZION] trinitarianism
My article has been cleaned up now, and should be more readable: http://www.members.shaw.ca/mschindler/C/trinity_1.html -- Marc A. Schindler Spruce Grove, Alberta, Canada -- Gateway to the Boreal Parkland Man will occasionally stumble over the truth, but most of the time he will pick himself up and continue on Winston Churchill Note: This communication represents the informal personal views of the author solely; its contents do not necessarily reflect those of the authors employer, nor those of any organization with which the author may be associated. // /// ZION LIST CHARTER: Please read it at /// /// http://www.zionsbest.com/charter.html /// / ==^^=== This email was sent to: archive@jab.org EASY UNSUBSCRIBE click here: http://topica.com/u/?aaP9AU.bWix1n.YXJjaGl2 Or send an email to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] T O P I C A -- Register now to manage your mail! http://www.topica.com/partner/tag02/register ==^^===
Re: [ZION] Afghanistan improved?
More to the point, he's a *Hindu* Indian, as you can tell both from his name and from the way his wife dresses (there was an episode when his family and the Simpsons had dinner together). Pakistan and Bangladesh were both intended to be part of India when India was given its independence, but Ali Jamnah [sp from memory], who would later become the first president of Pakistan, was afraid that Nehru would not be able to guarantee Muslim rights in the proposed secular state and insisted on a separate Muslim state. The result was thousands of deaths as many Moslems left India and practically all the Hindus left Pakistan. And eventually, of course, the East Bengali Moslems separated and formed yet a third country, Bangladesh. India has pretty well kept to its secularism (despite the rise of the BHP) and ironically remains the world's largest Muslim country (in terms of raw population numbers), whereas Pakistan, and to a lesser extent, Bangladesh, have become hotbeds of Islamic extremism, and even Pakistan's historical Christian communities (part of a community which claims to date from the Apostle Thomas's time) have come under quite a bit of persecution. India is an incredibly complex and heterogenous country. Jon Spencer wrote: > Jim Cobabe wrote: > > > > > Jon Spencer wrote: > > --- > > I have come to the conclusion that Marc was cheated by the Pakistani > > owner of a convenience store in his neck of the woods! :-) > > --- > > > > Sounds like a Simpsons episode. > > Actually, teh convenience store owner in the Simpsons is an Indian, but they > sort of look alike, so what's the difference? Opps! Now I guess I have to > pull a Lott. I wonder if I can get in IET (Indian Entertainment TV). > > > > > Come to think of it, perhaps we could draw some interesting and > > instructive parallels between Homer and his Canadian > > counterpart-apparent. :-0 > > Homer drinks beer, so he could never be a Bishop. At least I thikn so. > Marc, you don't drink beer, do you? :-) > > Jon > > // > /// ZION LIST CHARTER: Please read it at /// > /// http://www.zionsbest.com/charter.html /// > / > -- Marc A. Schindler Spruce Grove, Alberta, Canada -- Gateway to the Boreal Parkland Man will occasionally stumble over the truth, but most of the time he will pick himself up and continue on Winston Churchill Note: This communication represents the informal personal views of the author solely; its contents do not necessarily reflect those of the authors employer, nor those of any organization with which the author may be associated. // /// ZION LIST CHARTER: Please read it at /// /// http://www.zionsbest.com/charter.html /// / ==^^=== This email was sent to: archive@jab.org EASY UNSUBSCRIBE click here: http://topica.com/u/?aaP9AU.bWix1n.YXJjaGl2 Or send an email to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] T O P I C A -- Register now to manage your mail! http://www.topica.com/partner/tag02/register ==^^===
Re: [ZION] Afghanistan improved?
George Cobabe wrote: > Marc, the issue about the statement made by the Canadian about Pres Bush was > not the issue I was talking about. It was your general and specific distain > for American actions and motives in the international arena. Fair enough. I *do* disdain US actions and motives in the international arena. Not because I have something specific against the US (au contraire), but the US is acting in am imperialistic way, and has not lived up to the "Covenant of Ether" regarding Zion. Now, neither has any other part of Zion, including Canada, but we don't have the power you do. If we did, we'd be just as bad, I can assure you. I know it's hard to separate what I'm criticizing from seeming like personal attacks, but I'm just as critical as past British actions, for instance. In fact, even though the US is kind of the quasi-imperium of the day, its imperialism is much more benign than past, true imperial powers have been. And as it happens, we have a Latter-day Saint to thank, in part, for that fact (I always like to point to the Clark Memorandum as a brake on "manifest destiny" and the Monroe Doctrine). > The loop I was > talking about is the issue you bring up, that Canada is unable to do much on > their own - they are not often truly in the decision making loop. True enough. Which means our mistakes are relatively minor, too. But we're not perfect either. And that's the point: when you have great power and act in your own self-interest, the damage you're capable of inflicting is all the much greater. > > Especially right now when America has been attacked and will do something > about it with or without others permission. It is our right and our > responsibility to do so. However, you surely realize that your government > has acted to support the US in this area. > True. We consider it our duty as an ally. But at the same time we think that war is not the way to go on this one, and we are also a little upset at the hypocrisy of the US in preaching free trade when it allows its own domestic politics to drive that agenda, because we, like many other countries, have been the victim of that dynamic. > > I apologize for presuming your motives - you are right, I was wrong to do > so. It is a lesson we could all learn about other individuals and other > nations as well. Perhaps this lesson could also be applied to judging the > motives of the United States in the international arena. > > I am the new guy and perhaps I misunderstood when I read the rules, but I > thought that politics was a taboo subject. If not, then this list will be > very much more interesting, but nowhere near as uplifting as I was hoping. > Oh, politics isn't taboo. Whenever things slow down, one of us always starts up a political subject. It always wakes the list up! > > I really enjoy so many of your comments and appreciate your knowledge and > insight into so many aspects of what I am interested in, that I would not > want to make anything less than a friend of you. I hope that you can accept > and respond to that. And that you might feel the same way about me and my > posts, limited as I am in so much of what we discuss. > Thanks for the kind thoughts, and they're reciprocated. It's hard to convey the nuances of one's meaning in email, and it's easy to misunderstand each other. But as JWR said when he was here, when you get to know someone and you're friends with them, you can feel freer to disagree with their opinions, knowing it won't be taken personally. And John and I have "broken bread together" (as have Stephen Beecroft and I, incidentally. I'm only sad I couldn't cement that relationship better by accompanying my minister on the past two annual trips to Seattle we usually try to arrange for him, to speak at Bill Gates' annual World Leaders Conference. > > But please do not beat up on your neighbors to the south, because I, for > one, will naturally react to your diatribes. > Periodically I need to remind people (and myself) why it is that I'm writing the things I am. It's difficult to separate the culture from the religion and the personality from the opinion. But I think you'll know what I mean if I were to say that it could be "worse" -- we could have members from, say, Australia, Austria, the Netherlands and Denmark on the list ;-) [that's an in-joke between George and me regarding another list we're on] -- Marc A. Schindler Spruce Grove, Alberta, Canada -- Gateway to the Boreal Parkland Man will occasionally stumble over the truth, but most of the time he will pick himself up and continue on Winston Churchill Note: This communication represents the informal personal views of the author solely; its contents do not neces
Re: [ZION] Curiosity About Alma 1:21
You're right. Sorry -- I just got my history mixed up. I guess I must have been thinking of French intellectual influence that preceded the revolution (ie de Tocqueville, not to mention Lafayette's military assistance). George Cobabe wrote: > Marc suggests: > "If one feels the specific events of the American Revolution were inspired, > one > would also have to believe that the French Revolution was inspired, since it > laid > the groundwork for the American Revolution, and the intellectuals behind the > liberalism (in the traditional sense of the term) that arose in the Age of > Enlightenment, who set up the ideological structure for modern democracy, > were all > inspired by the French Revolution, imo. But I think that's history, not > religious > doctrine. IOW, I don't think it's an important distinction" > > Hate to be picky Marc, but the French Revolution is generally thought to > have occurred between 1789 and 1799, sometime after the American Revolution. > You might recall the keys dates of 1776 and 1782 for America. I think it > was the French following the American example. > > I may not have understood your comment however, and I have been known to be > wrong about things like this. You may be looking at the roots of the French > experience rather than the historical manifestation of the actual > revolutionary events. > > And I have no problem with the idea that the French Revolution was inspired. > > George > > - Original Message - > From: "Marc A. Schindler" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> > To: <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> > Sent: Tuesday, December 17, 2002 2:10 PM > Subject: Re: [ZION] Curiosity About Alma 1:21 > > "John W. Redelfs" wrote: > > > Marc A. Schindler favored us with: > > >There's an interesting matter of interpretation here. Is "while" a > conditional > > >term here, or is it merely setting up the other party's side of the > > >covenant? And > > >if one party breaks the covenant, is the other party free to break it as > well? > > > > Obviously yes because we know from the Doctrine and Covenants that the > > Founding Fathers of the United States were inspired men raised up by God > to > > rebel against Britain. > > It actually doesn't say this. See below. > > > How do we reconcile that fact with the Twelfth > > Article of faith? This is how I make the reconciliation. Rebel against > > constituted authority but only when commanded by God to do so. > > I know this is a common belief amongst US LDS, but I don't think it's the > only one > possible. The D&C does not mention the American Revolution, it says the > founding > fathers were inspired, but wrt the principles of the Constitution (see in > particular D&C 101:80; the interpretation regarding the Revolution is the > reference > to having redeemed the land by blood, but that's in a separate, independent > clause. > Here's the whole verse: "And for this purpose have I established the > Constitution > of this land, by the hands of wise men whom I raised up unto this very > purpose, and > redeemed the land by the shedding of blood.." > > I certainly believe the US is the "cradle of the restoration" and that the > *principles* of the US constitution are inspired (in other words, democratic > government and protection of civil rights, but not necessarily the exact > form of > the US republic per se). I think that's pretty solid. What might be a > cultural > addition is the assumption that everything in US history is therefore > inspired. I > think there's been a bit of mythologization going on, which isn't unique to > LDS in > the US -- think of the term "manifest destiny," which alludes to a divine > mission. > I think the Lord uses what happens to His own ends but He has lots of > options and > uses whatever situation presents itself. It's not that big of a difference, > actually, as I see it -- we agree in the end result, we might just differ in > how it > came about. After all, Canada didn't have a revolution, but that's almost > certainly > because Britain learned a lesson from the US situation, and allowed its > other > colonies to evolve independence and democracy as they were ready. I know you > think > we don't have the same freedoms you do, but in all fairness, I think that > boils > down to just one particular issue, which I'd rather not get into. Despite > the > differences in the outward forms, Canada (and many other countries -- most > industrialized countries) have taken the principles of the US Bill o
[ZION] A voice of moderation: "The language of Islam has been hijacked"
Interesting, and welcome, note of moderation from Ms. Sheena Khan, the head of the Council on American-Islamic Relations, Canada. <<http://www.globeandmail.ca/servlet/ArticleNews/PEstory/TGAM/20021217/COSHEEMA/Comment/comment/commentColumnistsHeadline_temp/4/4/6/>> -- Marc A. Schindler Spruce Grove, Alberta, Canada -- Gateway to the Boreal Parkland Man will occasionally stumble over the truth, but most of the time he will pick himself up and continue on Winston Churchill Note: This communication represents the informal personal views of the author solely; its contents do not necessarily reflect those of the authors employer, nor those of any organization with which the author may be associated. // /// ZION LIST CHARTER: Please read it at /// /// http://www.zionsbest.com/charter.html /// / ==^^=== This email was sent to: archive@jab.org EASY UNSUBSCRIBE click here: http://topica.com/u/?aaP9AU.bWix1n.YXJjaGl2 Or send an email to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] T O P I C A -- Register now to manage your mail! http://www.topica.com/partner/tag02/register ==^^===
Re: [ZION] No biological basis for race
Stephen Beecroft wrote: > -Marc- > > A new study of Brazilians confirms what biologists have always > > known (but maybe not anthropologists?): namely, that there is > > no genetic basis for determining race: > > ><<http://www.globeandmail.ca/servlet/GIS.Servlets.HTMLTemplate?current_row=1&tf=tgam/search/tgam/SearchFullStory.html&cf=tgam/search/tgam/SearchFullStory.cfg&configFileLoc=tgam/config&encoded_keywords=concept+of+race&option=&start_row=1&start_row_offset1=&num_rows=1&search_re> > > The study discussed in the article was performed on Brazilians, a highly > racially-heterogenous group -- and on a very heterogenous subgroup of > Brazilians, too. The study is ridiculous; it's like saying, "There is no > such thing as dog breeds, because we went to the pound and found no > strong correlation between the mongrels' supposed breed and their actual > attributes". Totally bogus. I will bet that performing the same study > between groups of Japanese, Norwegians, and Ethiopians would give the > lie to the statement that "skin colour is a poor indication of > ancestry." > > Besides, the concept of "race" consists of much more than skin color, > despite the article's implication otherwise. Body build, height, facial > features, hair color/texture/distribution, subcutaneous adipose > preponderance -- all these are considered "racial features". While > mentioned in the study, these are clearly relegated to the back seat, as > evidenced by the article's opening line. > Actually they weren't. The author of the article doesn't mention them up front, but as Thomas Hudson from McGill University is quoted as saying, "'The physical traits of an individual -- especially skin pigmentation, hair colour, hair texture, and the shape of the lips and nose -- are constantly used for racial categorization and thus play an extremely influential role in human social relationships," the authors write. Yet, they point out, "It is possible for two siblings differing in colour to belong to completely diverse racial categories' in Brazil." He clearly equates the other physical features with colour as a traditional designator of race. > > There very clearly is a "biological basis" for the characteristics we > classify as race. It's called genetics. The statement that there is "no > biological basis for race" is absurd on its face, and those that hold to > it are either deeply ignorant or else have an axe to grind. > Can you show this from a scientific source? With all due respect, I don't think you know what you're talking about. Not meant as an attack -- I just want to see a contrary scientific view. This story isn't news -- it just adds to the pile. Geneticists have been saying this for a long time. Incidentally, not only do we have nothing to fear from this, but in light of the Tom Murphy affair, this actually gives us ammunition. I'm using it in some apologetics work I'm doing regarding Murphy's review of DNA and Lamanites. > > It's one thing to say that current racial classifications are imprecise, > or getting blurred, or not useful for this or that purpose. All such > proclamations may or may not be true. But to say that race doesn't exist > is to be tautologically incorrect That's not what the article is saying, and it's not something I would claim, either, fwiw. The point is whether race is a sociological concept or a biological concept. Admitting it is social is not to say it doesn't exist -- you've either misinterpreted the paper or are making a logical error. > -- people whose ancestry originated in > different parts of the world look more like others with similar ancestry > than they do like those with ancestry from other parts of the world. And > children look like their parents, so to say that there is no biological > basis for race is to play the fool. > > Stephen "Play the fool" is not a scientific concept either ;-) -- Marc A. Schindler Spruce Grove, Alberta, Canada -- Gateway to the Boreal Parkland Man will occasionally stumble over the truth, but most of the time he will pick himself up and continue on Winston Churchill Note: This communication represents the informal personal views of the author solely; its contents do not necessarily reflect those of the authors employer, nor those of any organization with which the author may be associated. -- [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] // /// ZION LIST CHARTER: Please read it at /// /// http://www.zionsbest.com/charter.html /// / ==^^=== This email was sent to: archive@jab.org EASY UNSUBSCRIBE click here: http://topica.com/u/?aaP9AU.bWix1n.YXJjaGl2 Or send an email to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] T O P I C A -- Register now to manage your mail! http://www.topica.com/partner/tag02/register ==^^===
Re: [ZION] Afghanistan improved?
George Cobabe wrote: > Marc, rather than start another political yelling match with you about the > USA and our policies, I will just say you are all screwed up and let it go > at that. > Okay. But I never did any yelling. No one ever proved me wrong on the last issue about the role of spokespeople in the Westminster system. Let's remember that two claims were made by Jim, who started the thread by posting an article from the Toronto Star: 1) the comment about Bush being a "moron" was made publicly. I showed (as did, indeed, the article itself) that it wasn't public. I got a "so what" kind of half-hearted acknowledgement from someone -- either Jim or Stephen, I can't remember which -- but that's all. 2) the comment was made by a politician. As a civil servant in a Westminster-style government, I explained why she wasn't a politician. You will never see a person like Francie Ducros giving a public statement -- it's always the minister who does (we consider this one of the basics of "responsible government" which means the minister is the one who is responsible, and everything in his or her department is always done in his/her name; civil servants never issue statements or hold press conferences like they do in the U.S. I never got an acknowledgement that Jim was wrong in his assumption that the rest of the world acts like the U.S. in this regard). But you're free to express an emotional opinion, as we all are. > > I am reminded of the old story of the Stallion and the horse fly. The fly > kept biting the horse but when it was all over the fly was still an insect, > and the horse was still a stallion. > > So keep biting at the USA if it makes you feel better as a Canadian, but > remember what is true in the end. > You are being presumptuous about my motives, and you're wrong, too. But if helps you feel better to hold this belief about my motives, go for it. > > It is always easy to criticize when you are out of the loop and unable to do > anything about it. > I don't understand this comment. I believe I was *in* the loop on that issue, since I happen to have first-hand experience of the process involved. -- Marc A. Schindler Spruce Grove, Alberta, Canada -- Gateway to the Boreal Parkland Man will occasionally stumble over the truth, but most of the time he will pick himself up and continue on Winston Churchill Note: This communication represents the informal personal views of the author solely; its contents do not necessarily reflect those of the authors employer, nor those of any organization with which the author may be associated. // /// ZION LIST CHARTER: Please read it at /// /// http://www.zionsbest.com/charter.html /// / ==^^=== This email was sent to: archive@jab.org EASY UNSUBSCRIBE click here: http://topica.com/u/?aaP9AU.bWix1n.YXJjaGl2 Or send an email to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] T O P I C A -- Register now to manage your mail! http://www.topica.com/partner/tag02/register ==^^===
Re: [ZION] The Laughing Savior
I think we can assume so, but indirectly -- by the references to criticisms of him by the Pharisees, for hanging out with "winebibbers," "publicans" and other "sinners." I don't imagine such meals were always sombre ;-) "John W. Redelfs" wrote: > Did the Savior ever crack jokes like President Hinckley? Is there any > scriptural indication that the Savior ever laughed or had a sense of > humor? Reading the Book of Mormon the other day, I realized the the > scriptures, all of them, seem to be very somber, that is, there are no > laughs. What do you think? > -- Marc A. Schindler Spruce Grove, Alberta, Canada -- Gateway to the Boreal Parkland Man will occasionally stumble over the truth, but most of the time he will pick himself up and continue on Winston Churchill Note: This communication represents the informal personal views of the author solely; its contents do not necessarily reflect those of the authors employer, nor those of any organization with which the author may be associated. // /// ZION LIST CHARTER: Please read it at /// /// http://www.zionsbest.com/charter.html /// / ==^^=== This email was sent to: archive@jab.org EASY UNSUBSCRIBE click here: http://topica.com/u/?aaP9AU.bWix1n.YXJjaGl2 Or send an email to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] T O P I C A -- Register now to manage your mail! http://www.topica.com/partner/tag02/register ==^^===
Re: [ZION] Curiosity About Alma 1:21
"John W. Redelfs" wrote: > Marc A. Schindler favored us with: > >There's an interesting matter of interpretation here. Is "while" a conditional > >term here, or is it merely setting up the other party's side of the > >covenant? And > >if one party breaks the covenant, is the other party free to break it as well? > > Obviously yes because we know from the Doctrine and Covenants that the > Founding Fathers of the United States were inspired men raised up by God to > rebel against Britain. It actually doesn't say this. See below. > How do we reconcile that fact with the Twelfth > Article of faith? This is how I make the reconciliation. Rebel against > constituted authority but only when commanded by God to do so. I know this is a common belief amongst US LDS, but I don't think it's the only one possible. The D&C does not mention the American Revolution, it says the founding fathers were inspired, but wrt the principles of the Constitution (see in particular D&C 101:80; the interpretation regarding the Revolution is the reference to having redeemed the land by blood, but that's in a separate, independent clause. Here's the whole verse: "And for this purpose have I established the Constitution of this land, by the hands of wise men whom I raised up unto this very purpose, and redeemed the land by the shedding of blood.." I certainly believe the US is the "cradle of the restoration" and that the *principles* of the US constitution are inspired (in other words, democratic government and protection of civil rights, but not necessarily the exact form of the US republic per se). I think that's pretty solid. What might be a cultural addition is the assumption that everything in US history is therefore inspired. I think there's been a bit of mythologization going on, which isn't unique to LDS in the US -- think of the term "manifest destiny," which alludes to a divine mission. I think the Lord uses what happens to His own ends but He has lots of options and uses whatever situation presents itself. It's not that big of a difference, actually, as I see it -- we agree in the end result, we might just differ in how it came about. After all, Canada didn't have a revolution, but that's almost certainly because Britain learned a lesson from the US situation, and allowed its other colonies to evolve independence and democracy as they were ready. I know you think we don't have the same freedoms you do, but in all fairness, I think that boils down to just one particular issue, which I'd rather not get into. Despite the differences in the outward forms, Canada (and many other countries -- most industrialized countries) have taken the principles of the US Bill of Rights and applied them in their own democratization. In fact, D&C 134:5 specifically prohibits rebellion and sedition. Whether that's unconditional or conditional depends on what you think the word "while" means. I understand from my brother, who served his mission in French Polynesia, that members of an independence movement there, a movement which advocated the use of force, were threatened with excommunication. In contrast, you can be a member of the Parti Quebecois, which is separatist, without being in danger of losing your Church membership because the PQ does not promote violence to attain its ends. If one feels the specific events of the American Revolution were inspired, one would also have to believe that the French Revolution was inspired, since it laid the groundwork for the American Revolution, and the intellectuals behind the liberalism (in the traditional sense of the term) that arose in the Age of Enlightenment, who set up the ideological structure for modern democracy, were all inspired by the French Revolution, imo. But I think that's history, not religious doctrine. IOW, I don't think it's an important distinction. Postscript: Here's the entry from the EoM on "civil rights" [warning: it briefly mentions a topic against the List Charter; I've indicated this by "[deleted]"] Civil Rights Civil rights are legal guarantees designed to protect persons from arbitrary or discriminatory treatment. Common examples are those protecting freedom of speech, freedom of worship, freedom of assembly, the right to due process of law, the right to vote, the right to equal protection of the law, and safeguards for persons accused of crime, such as the right against self-incrimination, the right to confront one's accuser, the right to a jury trial, the right to counsel, and the right to a speedy trial. These and other rights are declared in the Constitution of the United States of America and in the constitutions of many other countries (see -->Constitutional Law). Civil rights are found in statutes as well
[ZION] Tobacco interests lose a big one in Canada; LDS involvement
Court of Canada in 1995. But the Supreme Court provided guidance for new legislation. I then headed up the CCS's efforts to work with other health groups to successfully lobby for replacement legislation - the "Tobacco Act", which was passed by Parliament in 1997. I later convinced the CCS's National Board to apply for and fund intervener status in the courts which we eventually received. I hired a young lawyer, Rob Cunningham, to be part of the legal team working with lawyers from the Government of Canada when this new Act was also challenged by the tobacco industry. The Canadian tobacco companies have now failed in their attempt to get the Canadian Tobacco Act overturned in court. Québec Superior Court judge André Denis last Friday upheld the constitutionality of the Act, which severely restricts the advertising media and types of advertisement that can be used to promote tobacco brands. He ruled that provisions of the Tobacco Act are fully justifiable under the Canadian Charter of Rights and Freedoms. He also upheld regulations under the Act that mandate picture-based health warnings on cigarette packs and require manufacturers to provide extensive reports to the Government of Canada on product ingredients and emissions as well as marketing activities and research. He also delivered a powerful criticism of the tobacco industry that is unprecedented in its magnitude in Canadian courts. The Court concluded that the tobacco industry advertised to youth, engaged in deceptive advertising, failed to disclose its knowledge of the health effects of tobacco use and was a willing accomplice to cigarette smuggling. The implications of this judgment are immense. For example, the Tobacco Act was the authority for picture-based government health warnings covering 50% of each side of cigarette packs. Other countries, such as Brazil, have copied this Canadian innovation. This provision is being considered in the current negotiations under the auspices of the World Health Organization for a Framework Convention on Tobacco Control. The final negotiations are next February in Geneva. Both Rob Cunningham and myself have been involved in these negotiations representing the Non-Government Organization (NGO) sector. The tobacco industry would have liked to have seen these warning knocked out by the courts because of their world precedent-setting nature. The CCS and other health groups in our tobacco control coalition having been pressuring the Government to ban the use of misleading descriptors, such as "light" and "mild". This judgment will make our job easier. We are also working to have the Government eliminate prominent package displays at retail outlets. Cheers. Ken Kyle Director Public Issues Office Canadian Cancer Society 116 Albert Street. Suite 1010 Ottawa, Ontario K1P 5G3 T: 613.565.2522 ext. 300 F: 613.565.2278 E: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Let's Make Cancer History 1 888 939- | www.cancer.ca -- Marc A. Schindler Spruce Grove, Alberta, Canada -- Gateway to the Boreal Parkland Man will occasionally stumble over the truth, but most of the time he will pick himself up and continue on Winston Churchill Note: This communication represents the informal personal views of the author solely; its contents do not necessarily reflect those of the authors employer, nor those of any organization with which the author may be associated. // /// ZION LIST CHARTER: Please read it at /// /// http://www.zionsbest.com/charter.html /// / ==^^=== This email was sent to: archive@jab.org EASY UNSUBSCRIBE click here: http://topica.com/u/?aaP9AU.bWix1n.YXJjaGl2 Or send an email to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] T O P I C A -- Register now to manage your mail! http://www.topica.com/partner/tag02/register ==^^===
Re: [ZION] Afghanistan improved?
The joke going around during Gulf War I, if I can call it that, was: "what movie
has been banned by Saddam Hussein? Iraqnophobia, of course." ("Arachnophobia," a
horror flick involving spiders, was in the movie theatres about that time).
Stacy Smith wrote:
> You should have said we are between Iraq and a hard place. Lol.
>
> Stacy.
>
> At 10:15 AM 12/17/2002 -0500, you wrote:
>
> >I have come to the conclusion that Marc was cheated by the Pakistani owner
> >of a convenience store in his neck of the woods! :-) Marc, while I agree
> >that Pakistan is not the country to model our society after and that there
> >are many distinct factions operating within the government, often at odds
> >with each other, do you believe that there are any other bad guys out there
> >(other than Bush, I mean :-).
> >
> >If we limited out allies to only those who were just like us, we would have
> >very few allies indeed. We partnered with Stalin in WWII because (being
> >VERY generous) we felt that to do otherwise would seriously hamper our war
> >efforts. Having someone as a temporary ally does not mean that you condone
> >their behavior. Rather it means that you are usually between a rock and a
> >hard place, and you may want to deny your adversary that country as his
> >ally.
> >
> >I would hazard to guess that we both believe that you prioritize your
> >problems and work from the top down. Perhaps it is the case that you have a
> >different prioritized list than do I. However, I think that Afghanistan and
> >Iraq and North Korea are higher on the list than is Pakistan, which, by the
> >way, is pretty high up on my list.
> >
> >And then, of course, you bring up a very interesting Libertarian argument
> >about free markets and opium (note I didn't say you put it forward). I
> >honestly would be very interested in your elaborating on this topic.
> >
> >Jon
> >
> >Marc A. Schindler wrote:
> >
> >I don't think it matters (to me, anyway) whether it was deliberate or not.
> >The
> >people in central and SW Afghanistan in particular have little choice, as
> >there is
> >no economic alternative for them. One could just as easily say this is the
> >"free
> >market" at work without the help of the CIA. I *do* believe, however, that
> >the ISI
> >(Pakistan's counterpart) was behind it for reasons of their own.
> >
> >//
> >/// ZION LIST CHARTER: Please read it at ///
> >/// http://www.zionsbest.com/charter.html ///
> >/
> >
> >
> >
> >
> >
> >---
> >Incoming mail is certified Virus Free.
> >Checked by AVG anti-virus system (http://www.grisoft.com).
> >Version: 6.0.423 / Virus Database: 238 - Release Date: 11/25/2002
>
> //
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> /
>
--
Marc A. Schindler
Spruce Grove, Alberta, Canada -- Gateway to the Boreal Parkland
Man will occasionally stumble over the truth, but most of the time he will pick
himself up and continue on Winston Churchill
Note: This communication represents the informal personal views of the author
solely; its contents do not necessarily reflect those of the authors employer, nor
those of any organization with which the author may be associated.
//
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/// http://www.zionsbest.com/charter.html ///
/
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Re: [ZION] NOMA: A Contrarian view
Mark Gregson wrote: > > > NOMA is also very similar to what the 1P said in 1931 in the last official > > statement on the origin of man: leave science to the scientists and religion to > > the Brethren. So be careful of criticizing it just because it was written by an > > agnostic. > > This is probably not the time to try this again, but not being known for great >reasonableness and consistency, I'll try it anyway: > > Marc, what is God's view of science and religion? Does He separate the two? His servants seem to. From the 1931 statement: [Heber J. Grant presidency] "Upon the fundamental doctrines of the Church we are all agreed. Our mission is to bear the message of the restored gospel to the world. Leave geology, biology, archaeology, and anthropology, no one of which has to do with the salvation of the souls of mankind, to scientific research, while we magnify our calling in the realm of the Church " For more on the general topic of science and religion in Mormonism, I'd suggest the article by that name in the EoM: http://www.members.shaw.ca/mschindler/A/eyring_1_8.htm > Does He sort of have a science hat and a religion hat that He puts on as appropriate? > No, but that's not the question I was raising. Both science and religion are man-made terms for concepts, and I would suggest God is above both of them. I think what many people get uneasy over is how to draw a distinction between the activity, or discipline, of science as a human activity, and "natural philosophy," the old, pre-scientific name for looking at the physical world in a physical way. One of the first things Man was commanded to do was to name the animals, and we've been categorizing ever since. > > Of course, these questions are rhetorical, but I don't recall ever getting a >straight answer from you on them. If you have answered and I've simply forgotten, >would you mind refreshing my memory? > Hope the above helps. > > The point that I and others on this list have tried to make to you but have >seemingly failed to do is that with God all truth is one. There is absolutely no >dividing line with "this kind of truth over here" and "that kind of truth over >there". Granted, there are more important and less important truths for us here in >this life, but even so, while the Book of Mormon is indispensible, so is the law of >gravity. So it's all one with God. The concept of non-overlapping magesteria has no >place with God. His knowledge embraces it all. And that's why some of us on this >list don't care much for the notion of NOMA. > But we're not on God's plane, so while in this telestial sphere, NOMA, or the 1931 statement, which amounts to the same thing, will have to suffice, as in so many other affairs. -- Marc A. Schindler Spruce Grove, Alberta, Canada -- Gateway to the Boreal Parkland Man will occasionally stumble over the truth, but most of the time he will pick himself up and continue on Winston Churchill Note: This communication represents the informal personal views of the author solely; its contents do not necessarily reflect those of the authors employer, nor those of any organization with which the author may be associated. // /// ZION LIST CHARTER: Please read it at /// /// http://www.zionsbest.com/charter.html /// / ==^^=== This email was sent to: archive@jab.org EASY UNSUBSCRIBE click here: http://topica.com/u/?aaP9AU.bWix1n.YXJjaGl2 Or send an email to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] T O P I C A -- Register now to manage your mail! http://www.topica.com/partner/tag02/register ==^^===
Re: [ZION] Afghanistan improved?
Doh! The character you're thinking of isn't Pakistani. He can't be, since he's Hindu. Ya can't hit the targets if ya can't see 'em Jim Cobabe wrote: > Jon Spencer wrote: > --- > I have come to the conclusion that Marc was cheated by the Pakistani > owner of a convenience store in his neck of the woods! :-) > --- > > Sounds like a Simpsons episode. > > Come to think of it, perhaps we could draw some interesting and > instructive parallels between Homer and his Canadian > counterpart-apparent. :-0 > -- Marc A. Schindler Spruce Grove, Alberta, Canada -- Gateway to the Boreal Parkland Man will occasionally stumble over the truth, but most of the time he will pick himself up and continue on Winston Churchill Note: This communication represents the informal personal views of the author solely; its contents do not necessarily reflect those of the authors employer, nor those of any organization with which the author may be associated. // /// ZION LIST CHARTER: Please read it at /// /// http://www.zionsbest.com/charter.html /// / ==^^=== This email was sent to: archive@jab.org EASY UNSUBSCRIBE click here: http://topica.com/u/?aaP9AU.bWix1n.YXJjaGl2 Or send an email to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] T O P I C A -- Register now to manage your mail! http://www.topica.com/partner/tag02/register ==^^===
Re: [ZION] Afghanistan improved?
industrial region (by and large) will just cause problems. Every imperial power that has intervened in the region has come away chastened, and the USA (with its allies) will be no different. You think WTC was bad? Just wait[sorry to be a Cassandra, but I'm very pessimistic about this] > > And then, of course, you bring up a very interesting Libertarian argument > about free markets and opium (note I didn't say you put it forward). I > honestly would be very interested in your elaborating on this topic. > Oh, it was just a throwaway comment. If there's a demand for something, someone, somewhere, somehow, will provide a supply. You can fight it and "just say no". I'd rather see the government get out of the way, and allow society to solve what is after all a social problem (drug abuse). Our "war on drugs" has much in common with our "war on terrorism". > > Jon > > Marc A. Schindler wrote: > > I don't think it matters (to me, anyway) whether it was deliberate or not. > The > people in central and SW Afghanistan in particular have little choice, as > there is > no economic alternative for them. One could just as easily say this is the > "free > market" at work without the help of the CIA. I *do* believe, however, that > the ISI > (Pakistan's counterpart) was behind it for reasons of their own. > -- Marc A. Schindler Spruce Grove, Alberta, Canada -- Gateway to the Boreal Parkland Man will occasionally stumble over the truth, but most of the time he will pick himself up and continue on Winston Churchill Note: This communication represents the informal personal views of the author solely; its contents do not necessarily reflect those of the authors employer, nor those of any organization with which the author may be associated. // /// ZION LIST CHARTER: Please read it at /// /// http://www.zionsbest.com/charter.html /// / ==^^=== This email was sent to: archive@jab.org EASY UNSUBSCRIBE click here: http://topica.com/u/?aaP9AU.bWix1n.YXJjaGl2 Or send an email to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] T O P I C A -- Register now to manage your mail! http://www.topica.com/partner/tag02/register ==^^===
[ZION] No biological basis for race
A new study of Brazilians confirms what biologists have always known (but maybe not anthropologists?): namely, that there is no genetic basis for determining race: <<http://www.globeandmail.ca/servlet/GIS.Servlets.HTMLTemplate?current_row=1&tf=tgam/search/tgam/SearchFullStory.html&cf=tgam/search/tgam/SearchFullStory.cfg&configFileLoc=tgam/config&encoded_keywords=concept+of+race&option=&start_row=1&start_row_offset1=&num_rows=1&search_results_start=1&query=concept+of+race>> -- Marc A. Schindler Spruce Grove, Alberta, Canada -- Gateway to the Boreal Parkland Man will occasionally stumble over the truth, but most of the time he will pick himself up and continue on Winston Churchill Note: This communication represents the informal personal views of the author solely; its contents do not necessarily reflect those of the authors employer, nor those of any organization with which the author may be associated. // /// ZION LIST CHARTER: Please read it at /// /// http://www.zionsbest.com/charter.html /// / ==^^=== This email was sent to: archive@jab.org EASY UNSUBSCRIBE click here: http://topica.com/u/?aaP9AU.bWix1n.YXJjaGl2 Or send an email to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] T O P I C A -- Register now to manage your mail! http://www.topica.com/partner/tag02/register ==^^===
Re: [ZION] trinitarianism
No, you'll have the content -- it's just the endnotes and some of the formatting that's messed up. Also, I spelled "homoousis" and "homoiousis" the same in Greek; the latter should have an iota between the two omicrons. Minor stuff like that. Jon Spencer wrote: > Bummer! I just printed it off to read. I assume that the content won't > change, so I'll try to save some trees. > > Jon > > Marc A. Schindler wrote: > > I can't find the email where I gave the link to the article on > trinitarianism on my website, but I went to the site, and found that the > article isn't in very good shape (the formatting is inconsistent and the > footnotes are all messed up). So if you wait a few days I'll try to whip > it into better shape. > > // > /// ZION LIST CHARTER: Please read it at /// > /// http://www.zionsbest.com/charter.html /// > / > -- Marc A. Schindler Spruce Grove, Alberta, Canada -- Gateway to the Boreal Parkland Man will occasionally stumble over the truth, but most of the time he will pick himself up and continue on Winston Churchill Note: This communication represents the informal personal views of the author solely; its contents do not necessarily reflect those of the authors employer, nor those of any organization with which the author may be associated. // /// ZION LIST CHARTER: Please read it at /// /// http://www.zionsbest.com/charter.html /// / ==^^=== This email was sent to: archive@jab.org EASY UNSUBSCRIBE click here: http://topica.com/u/?aaP9AU.bWix1n.YXJjaGl2 Or send an email to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] T O P I C A -- Register now to manage your mail! http://www.topica.com/partner/tag02/register ==^^===
Re: [ZION] New guy
Laura Maery Post has put out two editions of "Mormons on the Internet" (I have copies of each), and that's a good hardcopy source, although as she readily admits, it gets outdated pretty quickly. Stacy Smith wrote: > Well, I'd like to know just how many such lists there are. Judging from > other lists on other subjects, there must be hundreds out there. > > Stacy. > > At 05:45 PM 12/16/2002 -0900, you wrote: > > >George Cobabe favored us with: > >>I am glad to be one of the newest member of this list. By its description > >>it is what I have been looking for - a list of LDS faithful ready to discuss > >>without rancor. > > > >Well, there are moments of rancor, but like a faithful family we try to > >keep it to a minimum. > > > >>I live in Ogden and have been a member all of my life and with a heritage in > >>the church back to the 1830's. But the testimony I enjoy had to be earned > >>just like the newest member and in my case it has been received many times > >>over. I am married to the lovely Sylvia and we have five children and eight > >>beautiful grandchildren. Currently on the Ogden University High Council and > >>loving it. The kids you send to Weber State are the greatest in the world. > > > >So tell us how you are related to Jim. Any friend or family of Jim Cobabe > >is a friend of mine. > > > >>I hope that I am right about the list - I look forward to receiving the > >>first messages from you. > > > >We are glad to have you among us. I hope we live up to your lofty > >expectations. If not, consider it an exercise in Christlike forgiveness. > > > > > >John W. Redelfs [EMAIL PROTECTED] > >=== > >At present, the Book of Mormon is studied in our Sunday > >School and seminary classes every fourth year. This > >four-year pattern, however, must not be followed by > >Church members in their personal and family study. We > >need to read daily from the pages of the book that will get > >a man "nearer to God by abiding by its precepts, than by > >any other book." (Ezra Taft Benson, October 1988) > >=== > >All my opinions are tentative pending further data. --JWR > > > >// > >/// ZION LIST CHARTER: Please read it at /// > >/// http://www.zionsbest.com/charter.html /// > >/ > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > >--- > >Incoming mail is certified Virus Free. > >Checked by AVG anti-virus system (http://www.grisoft.com). > >Version: 6.0.423 / Virus Database: 238 - Release Date: 11/25/2002 > > // > /// ZION LIST CHARTER: Please read it at /// > /// http://www.zionsbest.com/charter.html /// > / > -- Marc A. Schindler Spruce Grove, Alberta, Canada -- Gateway to the Boreal Parkland Man will occasionally stumble over the truth, but most of the time he will pick himself up and continue on Winston Churchill Note: This communication represents the informal personal views of the author solely; its contents do not necessarily reflect those of the authors employer, nor those of any organization with which the author may be associated. // /// ZION LIST CHARTER: Please read it at /// /// http://www.zionsbest.com/charter.html /// / ==^^=== This email was sent to: archive@jab.org EASY UNSUBSCRIBE click here: http://topica.com/u/?aaP9AU.bWix1n.YXJjaGl2 Or send an email to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] T O P I C A -- Register now to manage your mail! http://www.topica.com/partner/tag02/register ==^^===
Re: [ZION] How Greek Philosophy Corrupted the Christian Concept of God
Well, I've been working on it tonight/this morning because I have insomnia (how's that for a "spiritual motivator?") I got about halfway through and found a couple of embarrassing typos along with the rest of the formatting (don't use Netscape Composer on Word docs, at least, not Netscape 4.72). Stacy Smith wrote: > I'd love to see that one when you get it good and cleaned up. > > Stacy. > > At 06:45 PM 12/16/2002 -0700, you wrote: > > >If you want to learn more about trinitarianism (albeit from an LDS pov, > >where I > >attack it), I've written 2 versions out of a planned series of 3. The > >first was > >printed in FAIR's early series of monthly newsletters, and was the "short" > >version. The "medium" version is on my website at > >http://www.members.shaw.ca/mschindler/C/trinity_1.html I've promised FAIR a > >"long" version eventually, but it's taking time (well, it *is* the long > >version, > >after all, and I want to make sure I understand some of the twists and > >turns the > >doctrine has taken in its long and confusing history before I try to > >attack it) > > > >Jon Spencer wrote: > > > > > I checked at our store today, and lo and behold, we do have the book "How > > > Greek Philosophy Corrupted the Christian Concept of God." I added it > > to our > > > website, with the following description (actually, only the first two > > > paragraphs would fit - but you get all three!). It is a very good book, > > > well worth the reading. > > > > > > Jon > > > > > > "How Greek Philosophy Corrupted the Christian Concept of God" brings > > > profound new insights to the Trinitarian doctrines of "orthodox" > > > Christianity. With clear and precise documentation, the book shows how > > these > > > doctrines migrated into early Christianity from Greek philosophy. The > > > various aspects of Trinitarian belief are isolated, linked to their Greek > > > sources, and carefully analyzed to show how they differ radically from > > > biblical teaching. > > > > > > The writings of early Church Fathers, portrayed in their historical > > context, > > > show that during the second century theological concepts taught in > > Platonism > > > were adopted as Christians struggled to end Roman persecution. Emperor > > > Marcus Aurelius, a famous Stoic philosopher, was putting Christians to > > death > > > because their beliefs did not conform to the Hellenized religion of the > > day. > > > The book shows that the early Church Fathers sought to save their people's > > > lives by re-defining the Christian God in Greek terms. Their efforts > > > brought metaphysics to Christianity and ushered in concepts like the > > > Trinity. > > > > > > After presenting the historical setting in which these philosophical errors > > > were embraced as Christian doctrine, the book compares orthodox Christian > > > theology today, called "classical theism," to biblical teachings. The book > > > identifies how Greek philosophy has influenced each of the major attributes > > > of God taught in classical theism. Modern theologians are challenged on > > > numerous doctrinal points that found their way from Greek philosophy into > > > ancient creeds, but are found wanting in the light of careful theological, > > > historic and scientific analysis. This book constitutes a major challenge > > > to those who accept the tenants of classical theism, but do not know the > > > many aspects of their doctrine that are based on Greek philosophy. > > > > > > > > // > > > /// ZION LIST CHARTER: Please read it at /// > > > /// http://www.zionsbest.com/charter.html /// > > > > > / > > > > > > >-- > >Marc A. Schindler > >Spruce Grove, Alberta, Canada -- Gateway to the Boreal Parkland > > > >Man will occasionally stumble over the truth, but most of the time he > >will pick > >himself up and continue on Winston Churchill > > > >Note: This communication represents the informal personal views of the author > >solely; its contents do not necessarily reflect those of the authors > >
Re: [ZION] The latest from Iraq
This just isn't true, I'm afraid. They were *delivered* to the Security Council, but the US still managed to get first crack at them. An excerpt from the US State Dept. briefing: Reeker, the spokesman for the State Department, on 10/12/02: T"he U.S. government has made copies of the Iraqi weapons declaration and distributed them to the five permanent members of the U.N. Security Council and other council members with expertise to assess the declaration for proliferation-sensitive information, State Department deputy spokesman Philip Reeker said at the daily media briefing in Washington December 10. REEKER SAID ONCE SUCH INFORMATION HAS BEEN DLELETED, A WORKING DOCUMENT WILL BE MADE AVAILABLE TO OTHER MEMBERS OF THE [SECURITY] COUNCIL AS SOON AS POSSIBLE. [emphasis added] Reeker said once such information has been deleted, a working document will be made available to other members of the council as soon as possible. The United States is going to analyze the declaration with respect to its credibility and compliance with U.N. Security Council resolution 1441, while drawing on the specialized expertise of other declared nuclear states so as to accelerate the review, Reeker said. In keeping with the Security Council president's decision to allow access to the Iraqi declaration to those members of the Security Council with expertise to assess the risks of proliferation and other sensitive information to begin reviewing that document, full copies of the report have been made available to those members of the Council that have that expertise. As we discussed yesterday, the United States assisted by copying this declaration. We had been asked to assure that the document was copied in a controlled environment to guard against the inadvertent release of information. And from the press corps Q&A session: Question: There have been some grumblings on the sideline about Washington taking the first set of documents and whisking them down here to copy them off. Have you received any messages like that from Permanent 5 members or other Security Council members? Mr. Reeker: No. And, in fact, all Permanent 5 members have their copies, as I think we talked about yesterday. As I mentioned, based on the Council president's decision -- which was an appropriate one and consistent with the resolution -- we assisted in ensuring the safeguards against release, transmission of proliferation-sensitive information, making sure that that was not jeopardized. So we did the copying of this. We got the copies to all of those members with that expertise and all together we will be assessing the full document to see about proliferation-sensitive information so that then we can make available to other members of the Council a working document as soon as possible. Now, I could simply be reading this the wrong way, I realize. But it looks pretty evident that the US got the documents first. Incidentally, the other nations with "expertise in this matter" happen to be the other permanent members of the Security Council, but not the rest of the Security Council at present (10 other countries get a turn for I think it's 5 years, on the SC, in rotation. For instance, Canada was on until about a year ago, when Mexico took our place. Gary Smith wrote: > Actually, the permanent members of the Security Council all received it > at the same time. Russia condemned the document at the same time the US > did. It was the temporary members who received the delayed copy, to > ensure classified nuclear information did not slip out into the hands of > non-nuclear countries (like Syria, which is on the Council right now). > K'aya K'ama, > Gerald/gary Smithgszion1 @juno.comhttp://www > .geocities.com/rameumptom/index.html > "No one is as hopelessly enslaved as the person who thinks he's free." - > Johann Wolfgang von Goethe > > Marc: > No, Larry -- the U.S. insisted on looking it over first before giving it > to other > permanent members of the Security Council, which is only 5 nations > (technically > speaking, not the "UN" -- that implies the General Assembly). This was > public > news, I'm not making it up. > > > Sign Up for Juno Platinum Internet Access Today > Only $9.95 per month! > Visit www.juno.com > > // > /// ZION LIST CHARTER: Please read it at /// > /// http://www.zionsbest.com/charter.html /// >
Re: [ZION] Iran's Nukes
Jim Cobabe wrote: > I was interested to learn that the Russians are now selling nuclear > technological knowhow. What a refreshing change for the world to buy > their nuclear plants from the Russians, instead of from the Canadians, > or the PRC. Perhaps the Russian bid was cheaper. ;-> > This really isn't new, actually. There are a lot of out-of-work Russian and Ukrainian scientists around (I've met some of them even here in Edmonton at high-tech firms I've visited). And of course, our CANDU (and now the more compact Maple reactor being sold by a former division of AECL, and a sister company to the medical products division, where I lived -- see http://biz.yahoo.com/cnw/021029/maple_1_reactor_1.html for the Maple, and http://www.ncf.carleton.ca/~cz725/cnf_sectionA.htm#c for CANDU. A Three-Mile Island or Chernobyl-type accident is virtually impossible with either reactor. What we won't sell are the research reactors such as are installed in Chalk River ON (near where the uranium for the 2 US bombs dropped on Japan was mined), and Whiteshell MN (NE of Winnipeg). Both of these reactors have very high neutron flux -- enough to give a 1.5 cm Cobalt-60 source an energy level approaching smaller linear accelerators. [Yeah, yeah, I know you were yanking my chain, but give me a chance for boosterism...] -- Marc A. Schindler Spruce Grove, Alberta, Canada -- Gateway to the Boreal Parkland Man will occasionally stumble over the truth, but most of the time he will pick himself up and continue on Winston Churchill Note: This communication represents the informal personal views of the author solely; its contents do not necessarily reflect those of the authors employer, nor those of any organization with which the author may be associated. // /// ZION LIST CHARTER: Please read it at /// /// http://www.zionsbest.com/charter.html /// / ==^^=== This email was sent to: archive@jab.org EASY UNSUBSCRIBE click here: http://topica.com/u/?aaP9AU.bWix1n.YXJjaGl2 Or send an email to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] T O P I C A -- Register now to manage your mail! http://www.topica.com/partner/tag02/register ==^^===
Re: [ZION] Curiosity About Alma 1:21
There's an interesting matter of interpretation here. Is "while" a conditional term here, or is it merely setting up the other party's side of the covenant? And if one party breaks the covenant, is the other party free to break it as well? "John W. Redelfs" wrote: > Jim Cobabe favored us with: > >"Church members who seek to use LDS doctrine as a basis for concluding > >that government infringements on inalienable rights have excused them > >from obeying the law seem to have forgotten the principle of following > >the prophets. Until the prophets invoke this principle, faithful members > >will also refrain from doing so. We remain committed to uphold our > >governments and to obey their laws." (Dallin H. Oaks, "Some > >Responsibilities of Citizenship", BYU Marriott Center, July 3, 1994) > > Following this same train of thought, here are questions 7-9 in the > screening questionnaire I use for my Moroni list: > > 7. I believe the Twelfth Article of Faith: "We believe in being subject to > kings, presidents, rulers, and magistrates, in obeying, honoring, and > sustaining the law." > A. Strongly agree > B. Agree > C. Don't know > D. Disagree > F. Strongly disagree > > 8. But I also believe D&C 134:5 which reads: "We believe that all men are > bound to sustain and uphold the respective governments in which they > reside, WHILE PROTECTED IN THEIR INHERENT AND INALIENABLE > RIGHTS, by the laws of such governments; and that sedition and rebellion are > unbecoming every citizen thus protected, and should be punished accordingly; > and that all governments have a right to enact such laws as in their own > judgments are best calculated to secure the public interest; at the same time, > however, holding sacred the freedom of conscience." > A. Strongly agree > B. Agree > C. Don't know > D. Disagree > F. Strongly disagree > > 9. However, when these two are in apparent contradiction, I believe that it > is the Priesthood led by the President of the Church, rather than the > individual that makes the final determination as to which principle is > supreme at any given moment. A saint does not take the law into his own > hands. > A. Strongly agree > B. Agree > C. Don't know > D. Disagree > F. Strongly disagree > > John W. Redelfs [EMAIL PROTECTED] > === > "Atheistic humanism is the opiate of the self-described > intellectuals" --Uncle Bob > === > All my opinions are tentative pending further data. --JWR > > ////// > /// ZION LIST CHARTER: Please read it at /// > /// http://www.zionsbest.com/charter.html /// > / > -- Marc A. Schindler Spruce Grove, Alberta, Canada -- Gateway to the Boreal Parkland Man will occasionally stumble over the truth, but most of the time he will pick himself up and continue on Winston Churchill Note: This communication represents the informal personal views of the author solely; its contents do not necessarily reflect those of the authors employer, nor those of any organization with which the author may be associated. // /// ZION LIST CHARTER: Please read it at /// /// http://www.zionsbest.com/charter.html /// / ==^^=== This email was sent to: archive@jab.org EASY UNSUBSCRIBE click here: http://topica.com/u/?aaP9AU.bWix1n.YXJjaGl2 Or send an email to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] T O P I C A -- Register now to manage your mail! http://www.topica.com/partner/tag02/register ==^^===
Re: [ZION] Afghanistan improved?
I don't think it matters (to me, anyway) whether it was deliberate or not. The people in central and SW Afghanistan in particular have little choice, as there is no economic alternative for them. One could just as easily say this is the "free market" at work without the help of the CIA. I *do* believe, however, that the ISI (Pakistan's counterpart) was behind it for reasons of their own. "John W. Redelfs" wrote: > Marc A. Schindler favored us with: > >Contrary to what seems to be the general impression in the U.S. that > >Afghanistan has improved with the overthrow of the Taliban regime, there > >are signs that the ancien regime has returned -- the "Northern Alliance" > >was, of course, nothing but the original gang of thugs who ran the > >country, and according to the latest issue of Jane's Intelligence > >Review, Afghanistan is once again the world's largest opium producer. > > There is a strong belief held on the radical right in this country that > while George H. Bush was the head of the CIA, he set up the heroine > distribution system by which narcotics from this part of the world were > transported to the USA. Bo Gritz had a lot to say on the matter. Of > course Bo Gritz lost most of his credibility when he left the Church and > proved himself to be a mere opportunist. > > Anyway, if it is true the Bush, Sr. helped create a market for Afghan > opium, it would explain why that market and distribution system remains > intact after a Bush, Jr. victory. > > I'm sure this is just a pack of lies told about our honorable leaders. At > least I hope so. > > John W. Redelfs [EMAIL PROTECTED] > === > At present, the Book of Mormon is studied in our Sunday > School and seminary classes every fourth year. This > four-year pattern, however, must not be followed by > Church members in their personal and family study. We > need to read daily from the pages of the book that will get > a man "nearer to God by abiding by its precepts, than by > any other book." (Ezra Taft Benson, October 1988) > === > All my opinions are tentative pending further data. --JWR > > // > /// ZION LIST CHARTER: Please read it at /// > /// http://www.zionsbest.com/charter.html /// > / > -- Marc A. Schindler Spruce Grove, Alberta, Canada -- Gateway to the Boreal Parkland Man will occasionally stumble over the truth, but most of the time he will pick himself up and continue on Winston Churchill Note: This communication represents the informal personal views of the author solely; its contents do not necessarily reflect those of the authors employer, nor those of any organization with which the author may be associated. // /// ZION LIST CHARTER: Please read it at /// /// http://www.zionsbest.com/charter.html /// / ==^^=== This email was sent to: archive@jab.org EASY UNSUBSCRIBE click here: http://topica.com/u/?aaP9AU.bWix1n.YXJjaGl2 Or send an email to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] T O P I C A -- Register now to manage your mail! http://www.topica.com/partner/tag02/register ==^^===
[ZION] 'Twas the Night Before Christmas...out on the desert sands
By a smart-aleck Canadian (Bruce Calder) > 'Twas the Night Before Christmas 2002 > by Bruce H.G. Calder > http://www.calder.net/ > > >'Twas the night before Christmas, when outside Iraq, >American soldiers prepared to attack; >The U.N. inspectors had searched everywhere, >To find all the weapons they knew that were there; > >Saddam was all nestled all snug in his bed, >While Tomahawk Cruise missiles flew overhead; >In my oil heated house I turned on the T.V., >And saw Connie Chung introduce a live feed. > >And out on the sands there arose such a rumble, >Republican guardsmen knew they were in trouble. >Turning their turrets, tanks' gun barrels flash, >Precisely converting their targets to ash. > >The tracers above with their orangey glow, >Gave the lustre of mid-day to objects below, >When what to my wondering eyes should appear, >But the White House press room, many journalists near, > >With a large entourage, all kissing his tush, >I knew right away it was President Bush. >More rapid than smart bombs, his cabinet came, >And he whistled and shouted and called them by name; > >"Now, Powell! now, Rumsfeld!" He spoke to the nation, >Rice, Ashcroft and Cheney, in an undisclosed location." >"Until Saddam is gone the U.S. is undaunted," >With a straight face he said, "War was not what I wanted." > >As his father before the young Bush guaranteed, >That he'll fight night and day 'till those people are freed, >So all over Baghdad, the bombers they flew, >With a big load of napalm and some cluster bombs too. > >And then the tanks roll and with fortresses flying, >They crashed the front lines, never knowing who's dying. >The war had begun and all knew who would lose, >So Saddam starts to shout, "Time to kill me some Jews!" > >And the rockets he fired to vent his frustration, >Were matched by the lighting quick retaliation; >Some billions of cash he had flung on his back, >Thankful that he had remembered to pack. > >And Bush how he swaggered, his war was perfection, >He knew he would certainly win re-election, >Iraqis were cheering the freedom in store, >Ironically hating The West a bit more; > >Osama responded, or one in his name, >That the Great Christian Satan must bear all the blame; >The suicide bombers he freely admits, >Will now blow your brothers and mothers to bits. > >He was homely and gaunt, a pathetic old man, >But I feared for the terror he surely would plan; >The horror he said that would soon be revealed, >Convinced me America never should yield. > >Bush spoke to the country promoting the war, >Inferring that no one should vote for Al Gore, >And saying that freedom must come from a gun, >Then hopped up the stairs and got on Air Force One; > >He took to the skies heading off to his ranch, >The head of the U.S. executive branch, >I thought of the soldiers so far far away, >And thanked them that I may enjoy Christmas day. > Bruce H.G. Calder - December 13, 2002 -- Marc A. Schindler Spruce Grove, Alberta, Canada -- Gateway to the Boreal Parkland Man will occasionally stumble over the truth, but most of the time he will pick himself up and continue on Winston Churchill Note: This communication represents the informal personal views of the author solely; its contents do not necessarily reflect those of the authors employer, nor those of any organization with which the author may be associated. // /// ZION LIST CHARTER: Please read it at /// /// http://www.zionsbest.com/charter.html /// / ==^^=== This email was sent to: archive@jab.org EASY UNSUBSCRIBE click here: http://topica.com/u/?aaP9AU.bWix1n.YXJjaGl2 Or send an email to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] T O P I C A -- Register now to manage your mail! http://www.topica.com/partner/tag02/register ==^^===
[ZION] prayer of the day
They don't make 'em like that old curmudgeon Samuel Johnson anymore (Johnson is probably best known for his dictionary, one of the earliest English dictionaries). This prayer is meant not to be whispered, but to be proclaimed by one with good lungs and a well-buttoned waistcoat [pronounced wes'cut, of course...] December 13, 2002 Feast of Lucy, Martyr at Syracuse, 304 Commemoration of Samuel Johnson, Writer, Moralist, 1784 Almighty and most merciful Father, I again appear in Thy presence the wretched misspender of another year which Thy mercy has allowed me. O Lord let me not sink into total depravity, look down upon me, and rescue me at last from the captivity of sin. Impart to me good resolutions, and give me strength and perseverance to perform them. Take not from me Thy Holy Spirit, but grant that I may redeem the time lost, and that by temperance and diligence, by sincere repentance and faithful obedience I may finally attain everlasting happiness, for the sake of Jesus Christ our Lord. ... Samuel Johnson (1709-1784) Thanks to Kathryn Daniel, a Canadian LDS originally from Barbados now living in Bermuda, for this. -- Marc A. Schindler Spruce Grove, Alberta, Canada -- Gateway to the Boreal Parkland Man will occasionally stumble over the truth, but most of the time he will pick himself up and continue on Winston Churchill Note: This communication represents the informal personal views of the author solely; its contents do not necessarily reflect those of the authors employer, nor those of any organization with which the author may be associated. // /// ZION LIST CHARTER: Please read it at /// /// http://www.zionsbest.com/charter.html /// / ==^^=== This email was sent to: archive@jab.org EASY UNSUBSCRIBE click here: http://topica.com/u/?aaP9AU.bWix1n.YXJjaGl2 Or send an email to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] T O P I C A -- Register now to manage your mail! http://www.topica.com/partner/tag02/register ==^^===
