Re: [ZION] High Priests have money
Grampa Bill responds: >I know of one SP who was a mechanic until his business went bust >just before his call, He then sold house trailers for a while but was >terminated because of too few sales. After a period of unemployment he >want to work as a machinist for the county. >I know of another who was (and is) an electronic technician. Gee wiz Grampa, that must have been a long long long time ago before the unwritten rule was written. ;-) Paul O [EMAIL PROTECTED] Sign Up for Juno Platinum Internet Access Today Only $9.95 per month! Visit www.juno.com / /// ZION LIST CHARTER: Please read it at /// /// http://www.zionsbest.com/charter.html /// / ==^ This email was sent to: archive@jab.org EASY UNSUBSCRIBE click here: http://topica.com/u/?aaP9AU.bWix1n.YXJjaGl2 Or send an email to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] T O P I C A -- Register now to manage your mail! http://www.topica.com/partner/tag02/register ==^
Re: [ZION] High Priests have money
Paul Osborne wrote: I was referring to Stake President and up. They have money and prestige. There are plenty of talented yet poor High Priests who never get the call because they don't have money. Money is a prerequisite to those callings. === Grampa Bill responds: I know of one SP who was a mechanic until his business went bust just before his call, He then sold house trailers for a while but was terminated because of too few sales. After a period of unemployment he want to work as a machinist for the county. I know of another who was (and is) an electronic technician. As for the importance of being a High Priest, I submit the following from the Teachings of Ezra Taft Benson_ Teachings of Ezra Taft Benson, p.604 The temple work for the fifty-six signers of the Declaration of Independence and other Founding Fathers has been done. All these appeared to Wilford Woodruff when he was president of the St. George Temple. President George Washington was ordained a high priest at that time. You will also be interested to know that, according to Wilford Woodruff's journal, John Wesley, Benjamin Franklin, and Christopher Columbus were also ordained high priests at that time. It is my understang that others of the founding fathers were ordained Elders as is common practice today when the dead receive their temple work. I'm not sure of the significance of these ordinations but thought I'd throw them out there. "Don't waste the atonement." Sue Woodbury, Oct. 20, 2002 Love y'all, Grampa Bill in Savannah / /// ZION LIST CHARTER: Please read it at /// /// http://www.zionsbest.com/charter.html /// / ==^ This email was sent to: archive@jab.org EASY UNSUBSCRIBE click here: http://topica.com/u/?aaP9AU.bWix1n.YXJjaGl2 Or send an email to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] T O P I C A -- Register now to manage your mail! http://www.topica.com/partner/tag02/register ==^
[ZION] High Priests have money
Yes, I know that Nibley says it is a free lunch, but he also says we still must work. What I was meaning, is that there are laws of work governing worldly wealth. The person who works hard and smart tends to live a more comfortable life than someone who is sloth or not so wise in their dealings with money. For example, all the GAs have paid their tithes, ensuring that the Lord would open the windows of heaven up to them. Second, they have all worked hard to live within their means, staying out of debt, ensuring their moneys were being used in the best ways possible, rather than just to pay down interest debt. Third, they have been industrious enough to make for a comfortable living. Fourth, they have put the kingdom of God first, and their other worldly works second, ensuring God's assistance financially and in other matters. So, they HAVE earned these blessings given of God. Do you think they would have these same blessings if they weren't paying their tithes? They wouldn't qualify to be GAs or high priests w/o paying tithes, so there is a bit of "earning" one has to do. Perhaps the term "qualify" would better suit you? Either way, it isn't totally a free gift, as there are some qualifications to receive all from God. K'aya K'ama, Gerald/gary Smithgszion1 @juno.comhttp://www .geocities.com/rameumptom/index.html "No one is as hopelessly enslaved as the person who thinks he's free." - Johann Wolfgang von Goethe ELF: Not so sure I agree, Gary. Reference Approaching Zion Chapters 4 and 5. Not so sure earned is the correct choice of terms here. Till Sign Up for Juno Platinum Internet Access Today Only $9.95 per month! Visit www.juno.com / /// ZION LIST CHARTER: Please read it at /// /// http://www.zionsbest.com/charter.html /// / ==^ This email was sent to: archive@jab.org EASY UNSUBSCRIBE click here: http://topica.com/u/?aaP9AU.bWix1n.YXJjaGl2 Or send an email to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] T O P I C A -- Register now to manage your mail! http://www.topica.com/partner/tag02/register ==^
Re: [ZION] High Priests have money
>Till, who hopes he hasn't offended Of course not. I'm the one around here that probably is the most offensive. When I was a kid I use to through rocks at beehives and shoot my bee bee gun at the neighbors windows. :-) Paul O [EMAIL PROTECTED] Sign Up for Juno Platinum Internet Access Today Only $9.95 per month! Visit www.juno.com / /// ZION LIST CHARTER: Please read it at /// /// http://www.zionsbest.com/charter.html /// / ==^ This email was sent to: archive@jab.org EASY UNSUBSCRIBE click here: http://topica.com/u/?aaP9AU.bWix1n.YXJjaGl2 Or send an email to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] T O P I C A -- Register now to manage your mail! http://www.topica.com/partner/tag02/register ==^
Re: [ZION] High Priests have money
When I lived in Seattle, when I was 14 I got my patriarchal blessing (this was in the old Renton ward of the Seattle Stake -- there are now 2 or 3 stakes in the region that old ward covered, which dates me!). The patriarch asked me if I wouldn't please try to friendship his son, who was going inactive. I tried but we didn't have much in common -- his favourite hobby was shooting sparrows with his BB gun from his bedroom window. Ironically I was pretty good with a BB gun and a pellet gun, although I never actually owned one. But my cousins had them, also .22's. They lived on a farm in Saskatchewan and were used to shooting vermin around the granaries, and they first taught me to shoot. They would put an old ace of spades card or something like that on a clothesline, and we'd use it for target practice. They never killed animals needlessly -- not even grasshoppers. The hardest thing my older cousin Donnie (who's about 4 years older than me) had to do was about when I was 9 or 10. A chick was born with its head on the front of its thorax instead of on top, and would die of starvation or asphyxiation. My uncle told Donnie to kill the chick to put it out of its misery, and I came along out of curiosity and to lend moral support. We were both crying on the way back -- Donnie whacked the poor critter against a fence post to kill it. Paul Osborne wrote: > >Till, who hopes he hasn't offended > > Of course not. I'm the one around here that probably is the most > offensive. When I was a kid I use to through rocks at beehives and shoot > my bee bee gun at the neighbors windows. :-) > > Paul O > [EMAIL PROTECTED] > -- Marc A. Schindler Spruce Grove, Alberta, Canada -- Gateway to the Boreal Parkland We do not think that there is an incompatibility between words and deeds; the worst thing is to rush into action before the consequences have been properly debated To think of the future and wait was merely another way of saying one was a coward; any idea of moderation was just an attempt to disguise ones unmanly character; ability to understand a question from all sides meant that one was totally unfitted for action. Pericles about his fellow-Athenians, as quoted by Thucydides in The Peloponessian Wars Note: This communication represents the informal personal views of the author solely; its contents do not necessarily reflect those of the authors employer, nor those of any organization with which the author may be associated. / /// ZION LIST CHARTER: Please read it at /// /// http://www.zionsbest.com/charter.html /// / ==^^=== This email was sent to: archive@jab.org EASY UNSUBSCRIBE click here: http://topica.com/u/?aaP9AU.bWix1n.YXJjaGl2 Or send an email to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] T O P I C A -- Register now to manage your mail! http://www.topica.com/partner/tag02/register ==^^===
RE: [ZION] High Priests have money
Paul (from a post in reply to mine regarding the HP money issue): > That's really odd. But administrators make more money than > everyone else under the administration so he has the most > money. I'm right and you're wrong. John: > I think that Paul is being deliberately provocative in order > to stir up a > discussion. I coached him while he was here. > > It works pretty good, doesn't it Paul? Provocative and productive are different (although not necessarily mutually exclusive). I think Paul's statement from above: "I'm right and you're wrong." is the former but not the latter. For the sake of healthy discussion and spiritual growth, may I suggest that we refrain from the provocative when it is not also clearly productive. --Jeff. / /// ZION LIST CHARTER: Please read it at /// /// http://www.zionsbest.com/charter.html /// / ==^ This email was sent to: archive@jab.org EASY UNSUBSCRIBE click here: http://topica.com/u/?aaP9AU.bWix1n.YXJjaGl2 Or send an email to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] T O P I C A -- Register now to manage your mail! http://www.topica.com/partner/tag02/register ==^
Re: [ZION] High Priests have money
At 21:46 10/23/2002 -0500, St Paul wrote: I will admit that I used to annoyed about it in the past. Till detects that it is still unresolved But it is the Lord's church and he can do whatever he wants, so I have come to accept it. You're on the right track, though but I'm sure he had sufficient for his means Here's the key. I'm working on it. :-) Absolutely the best statement yet. With this, all things can be accomplished. Till, who hopes he hasn't offended / /// ZION LIST CHARTER: Please read it at /// /// http://www.zionsbest.com/charter.html /// / ==^ This email was sent to: archive@jab.org EASY UNSUBSCRIBE click here: http://topica.com/u/?aaP9AU.bWix1n.YXJjaGl2 Or send an email to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] T O P I C A -- Register now to manage your mail! http://www.topica.com/partner/tag02/register ==^
Re: [ZION] High Priests have money
At 21:43 10/23/2002 -0500, Gary wrote: The Brethren had comfortable lives because they earned a comfortable life. Not so sure I agree, Gary. Reference Approaching Zion Chapters 4 and 5. Not so sure earned is the correct choice of terms here. Till / /// ZION LIST CHARTER: Please read it at /// /// http://www.zionsbest.com/charter.html /// / ==^ This email was sent to: archive@jab.org EASY UNSUBSCRIBE click here: http://topica.com/u/?aaP9AU.bWix1n.YXJjaGl2 Or send an email to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] T O P I C A -- Register now to manage your mail! http://www.topica.com/partner/tag02/register ==^
Re: [ZION] High Priests have money
Paul Osborne wrote: > > And, yes, John gave me some good pointers. I've seen how John operates > too and have watched him type letters to the list. I've seen his > computer, chair, book shelves, and table. I can visualize him right now > in my mind. > Having trouble sleeping, are we? -- Marc A. Schindler Spruce Grove, Alberta, Canada -- Gateway to the Boreal Parkland We do not think that there is an incompatibility between words and deeds; the worst thing is to rush into action before the consequences have been properly debated To think of the future and wait was merely another way of saying one was a coward; any idea of moderation was just an attempt to disguise ones unmanly character; ability to understand a question from all sides meant that one was totally unfitted for action. Pericles about his fellow-Athenians, as quoted by Thucydides in The Peloponessian Wars Note: This communication represents the informal personal views of the author solely; its contents do not necessarily reflect those of the authors employer, nor those of any organization with which the author may be associated. / /// ZION LIST CHARTER: Please read it at /// /// http://www.zionsbest.com/charter.html /// / ==^^=== This email was sent to: archive@jab.org EASY UNSUBSCRIBE click here: http://topica.com/u/?aaP9AU.bWix1n.YXJjaGl2 Or send an email to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] T O P I C A -- Register now to manage your mail! http://www.topica.com/partner/tag02/register ==^^===
Re: [ZION] High Priests have money
>I think that Paul is being deliberately provocative in order to stir up a >discussion. I coached him while he was here. > >It works pretty good, doesn't it Paul? Yep. Your s right John. I like to be provocative and stir things up. It's fun, but I would feel bad if I hurt someones feelings. And, yes, John gave me some good pointers. I've seen how John operates too and have watched him type letters to the list. I've seen his computer, chair, book shelves, and table. I can visualize him right now in my mind. Paul O [EMAIL PROTECTED] Sign Up for Juno Platinum Internet Access Today Only $9.95 per month! Visit www.juno.com / /// ZION LIST CHARTER: Please read it at /// /// http://www.zionsbest.com/charter.html /// / ==^ This email was sent to: archive@jab.org EASY UNSUBSCRIBE click here: http://topica.com/u/?aaP9AU.bWix1n.YXJjaGl2 Or send an email to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] T O P I C A -- Register now to manage your mail! http://www.topica.com/partner/tag02/register ==^
Re: [ZION] High Priests have money
At 09:43 PM, Wednesday, 10/23/02, Gary Smith wrote: There is nothing prestigious to these callings. There is some recognition, but in all reality, the pay isn't that great. Most would prefer to make it to heaven without the experience of being an apostle or stake president, but the humble ones accept the call when given. I think it depends on where you are. There is little prestige in being a bishop or stake president here in this part of Alaska. But in the SLC-Provo area those callings are definitely prestige callings. You can tell by listening to the wives. John W. Redelfs [EMAIL PROTECTED] === "Better not take a dog on the space shuttle, because if he sticks his head out when you're coming home his face might burn up." --Jack Handy === All my opinions are tentative pending further data. --JWR / /// ZION LIST CHARTER: Please read it at /// /// http://www.zionsbest.com/charter.html /// / ==^ This email was sent to: archive@jab.org EASY UNSUBSCRIBE click here: http://topica.com/u/?aaP9AU.bWix1n.YXJjaGl2 Or send an email to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] T O P I C A -- Register now to manage your mail! http://www.topica.com/partner/tag02/register ==^
Re: [ZION] High Priests have money
At 08:48 PM, Wednesday, 10/23/02, Gary Smith wrote: I would say that most apostles will have money. There are exceptions, though fewer and fewer as the Church grows. Even today, many of our apostles are not wealthy, but are comfortable. In my family "comfortable" is a euphemism for wealthy. --JWR / /// ZION LIST CHARTER: Please read it at /// /// http://www.zionsbest.com/charter.html /// / ==^ This email was sent to: archive@jab.org EASY UNSUBSCRIBE click here: http://topica.com/u/?aaP9AU.bWix1n.YXJjaGl2 Or send an email to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] T O P I C A -- Register now to manage your mail! http://www.topica.com/partner/tag02/register ==^
Re: [ZION] High Priests have money
I agree with everything you are saying Gary but I'm not thinking that all the GA's were born with silver spoons. I know they worked hard and got educated and have fine jobs that pay quite well. That is the nature of the man who gets the call. I am merely pointing out how the Lord does business and was not being critical about it. Me personally, it matters not what the profession of my bishop is. If he has the Spirit and the mantle that is all that matters. I'm sure you agree with that. But, I can understand how you would prefer an educated man. Paul O --- On Wed, 23 Oct 2002 21:43:34 -0500 Gary Smith <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> writes: > You make it sound like these jobs were handed to them on a silver > platter. Not so. They all started at the bottom, with no silver > spoon in > the mouth. Any money the GAs have, they earned it. Any education > they > received was from hard work. > > Do you think any of them had been wishing and hoping to become an > apostle? Definitely not. Try reading President Kimball's biography > on his > reaction when called as an apostle. Ask your stake president his > thoughts > on being called a stake president. I'll bet he wasn't jumping for > joy. > Rather, he was humbling submitting to the calling. > > There is nothing prestigious to these callings. There is some > recognition, but in all reality, the pay isn't that great. Most > would > prefer to make it to heaven without the experience of being an > apostle or > stake president, but the humble ones accept the call when given. > > These men are successful in life because they earned their success. > In > earning that success, they made themselves useful to God and His > work. Of > course God is probably going to call an educated man over a ditch > digger. > If you had a major struggle in your life, would you prefer your > bishop be > a psychiatrist or a day laborer? Educated or illiterate? > Financially > comfortable or standing by the roadside with a sign "will work for > food"? > > > God uses those who have qualified themselves for the work. Many are > called, but few chosen. Many aren't chosen because they try and do > things > their way, rather than God's way. They want to use the priesthood > for > their own use, rather than make themselves a useful tool for God to > use. > > The Brethren had comfortable lives because they earned a > comfortable > life. The prestige came only because they worked hard and earned it. > If > you or I don't receive prestige, it is probably because we haven't > done > ng prestigious. Sign Up for Juno Platinum Internet Access Today Only $9.95 per month! Visit www.juno.com / /// ZION LIST CHARTER: Please read it at /// /// http://www.zionsbest.com/charter.html /// / ==^ This email was sent to: archive@jab.org EASY UNSUBSCRIBE click here: http://topica.com/u/?aaP9AU.bWix1n.YXJjaGl2 Or send an email to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] T O P I C A -- Register now to manage your mail! http://www.topica.com/partner/tag02/register ==^
Re: [ZION] High Priests have money
At 12:03 PM, Wednesday, 10/23/02, [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: Will we ever see a janitor, a manual laborer, a machinist, a farmer, a rancher, as an apostle? To test this out - what are the current or former occupations of the apostles? Its interesting that a carpenter ended up saving mankind. --- Jesus was a carpenter. Peter was a fisherman. Joseph Smith was a farmer. Brigham Young was a glazier, I believe. Throughout the history of the Church, ancient and modern, the prophets have been not only pencil pushers, but also tradesmen. If there is a temporary abundance of paper shufflers in position of leadership, it is because at this time in history that is what the Lord needs. Perhaps it will be different tomorrow. Isn't it wonderful that this is a living Church. It grows and shifts to meet the current situation. I think that Paul is being deliberately provocative in order to stir up a discussion. I coached him while he was here. It works pretty good, doesn't it Paul? John W. Redelfs [EMAIL PROTECTED] === "Maybe in order to understand mankind, we have to look at the word itself: "Mankind". Basically, it's made up of two separate words - "mank" and "ind". What do these words mean ? It's a mystery, and that's why so is mankind." --Jack Handy === All my opinions are tentative pending further data. --JWR / /// ZION LIST CHARTER: Please read it at /// /// http://www.zionsbest.com/charter.html /// / ==^ This email was sent to: archive@jab.org EASY UNSUBSCRIBE click here: http://topica.com/u/?aaP9AU.bWix1n.YXJjaGl2 Or send an email to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] T O P I C A -- Register now to manage your mail! http://www.topica.com/partner/tag02/register ==^
Re: [ZION] High Priests have money
>What is your definition of "money"? Is it $40,000? $50,000? $100,000? >$1,000,000? My definition of money is when you have it in the bank and you don't owe anyone anything except perhaps the mortgage. >Most school administrators I know make about $50K. So if that is your >definition of "money", then you are right, most stake presidents AND High >Priests have money. By the time they get to that age, they have saved up >enough and worked their way up in their business enough to make $50K or >more a year. Point taken. Thanks. Paul O [EMAIL PROTECTED] Sign Up for Juno Platinum Internet Access Today Only $9.95 per month! Visit www.juno.com / /// ZION LIST CHARTER: Please read it at /// /// http://www.zionsbest.com/charter.html /// / ==^ This email was sent to: archive@jab.org EASY UNSUBSCRIBE click here: http://topica.com/u/?aaP9AU.bWix1n.YXJjaGl2 Or send an email to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] T O P I C A -- Register now to manage your mail! http://www.topica.com/partner/tag02/register ==^
Re: [ZION] High Priests have money
At 08:47 AM, Wednesday, 10/23/02, Paul Osborne wrote: I was referring to Stake President and up. They have money and prestige. There are plenty of talented yet poor High Priests who never get the call because they don't have money. Money is a prerequisite to those callings. I hope that it doesn't sound like I am faulting the Lord. I'm simply pointing out how the Lord does business. He depends on money and if you don't have it you won't get those high callings of Stake President and up. That's the bottom line. It's always about money. I had a stake president in southern California who was a manager of a college bookstore. I don't think he made much more than minimum wage. The neighborhood where he lived, the clothes he wore, and the car he drove would certainly bear out that out. Yet he was an excellent stake president. While it is true that most stake presidents are wealthy by my standards, that just means they are successful in their work. Even a truck driver or mechanic can be wealthy if he is good enough. And it stands to reason that the Lord would prefer competent men as his bishops and stake presidents. That is probably why I will never have to make that sacrifice. I have no special, demonstrated competence as an administrator. Teaching jobs are at least as important as bean counting, pencil pushing, and paper shuffling anyway. I would much rather teach Sunday School, a priesthood quorum, or seminary than serve in any administrative calling. The pay is just as good, and the work is a lot more fun. John W. Redelfs [EMAIL PROTECTED] === "It takes a big man to cry, but it takes a bigger man to laugh at that man." --Jack Handy === All my opinions are tentative pending further data. --JWR / /// ZION LIST CHARTER: Please read it at /// /// http://www.zionsbest.com/charter.html /// / ==^ This email was sent to: archive@jab.org EASY UNSUBSCRIBE click here: http://topica.com/u/?aaP9AU.bWix1n.YXJjaGl2 Or send an email to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] T O P I C A -- Register now to manage your mail! http://www.topica.com/partner/tag02/register ==^
Re: [ZION] High Priests have money
Gary Smith wrote: > You make it sound like these jobs were handed to them on a silver > platter. Not so. They all started at the bottom, with no silver spoon in > the mouth. Any money the GAs have, they earned it. Any education they > received was from hard work. > > Do you think any of them had been wishing and hoping to become an > apostle? Definitely not. Try reading President Kimball's biography on his > reaction when called as an apostle. This was precisely what I as thinking of. He really struggled as an insurance broker when he was a young man. -- Marc A. Schindler Spruce Grove, Alberta, Canada -- Gateway to the Boreal Parkland We do not think that there is an incompatibility between words and deeds; the worst thing is to rush into action before the consequences have been properly debated To think of the future and wait was merely another way of saying one was a coward; any idea of moderation was just an attempt to disguise ones unmanly character; ability to understand a question from all sides meant that one was totally unfitted for action. Pericles about his fellow-Athenians, as quoted by Thucydides in The Peloponessian Wars Note: This communication represents the informal personal views of the author solely; its contents do not necessarily reflect those of the authors employer, nor those of any organization with which the author may be associated. / /// ZION LIST CHARTER: Please read it at /// /// http://www.zionsbest.com/charter.html /// / ==^^=== This email was sent to: archive@jab.org EASY UNSUBSCRIBE click here: http://topica.com/u/?aaP9AU.bWix1n.YXJjaGl2 Or send an email to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] T O P I C A -- Register now to manage your mail! http://www.topica.com/partner/tag02/register ==^^===
RE: [ZION] High Priests have money
Paul Osborne: ... to become a GA? The unwritten rule is that he has to have money and resources. He almost always has a prestigious job and a fine education. That is what the Lord is looking for. If you don't have those benefits you can't be called to be a GA, let alone a SP. ___ Nice thought. Not true. And I think you may have a real hangup with the word pre$tige. But, that's just my own personal opinion, and I will have another nice day again tomorrow, thank you. Poor as I am in the things of this world. Larry Jackson [EMAIL PROTECTED] Sign Up for Juno Platinum Internet Access Today Only $9.95 per month! Visit www.juno.com / /// ZION LIST CHARTER: Please read it at /// /// http://www.zionsbest.com/charter.html /// / ==^ This email was sent to: archive@jab.org EASY UNSUBSCRIBE click here: http://topica.com/u/?aaP9AU.bWix1n.YXJjaGl2 Or send an email to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] T O P I C A -- Register now to manage your mail! http://www.topica.com/partner/tag02/register ==^
Re: [ZION] High Priests have money
Val wrote: >I must wholly disagree here. Our former stake president is only >high school educated and a construction worker. He was my Bishop when I >was a little girl, and back then he was managing a health spa. In fact, >we had no font in the building, so I was baptized in the pool at the spa. >They always lived in very modest homes--not luxurious at all. >He is also one of the most spiritual men I have ever known. >The SP before him lost his job, was supporting a son on a >mission, AND SP. They were living out of their food storage for many >months while he was unemployed. Again, probably THE most spiritual man I >have ever known. He spoke at my husband's funeral in March. I swear, he >still speaks directly to the Lord. Well. I guess the unwritten rule was broken. I appreciate hearing these stories. It helps me see just how flexible the Lord can be. >I don't know how you can know who the Lord accepts and who He >doesn't anyway? You must have some bitter experience to be speaking this >way about the Lord's annointed. I believe the scriptures are clear when >we are told we need nothing more that a broken heart and a contrite >spirit. I see nothing there about advanced degrees or family money or an >excellent salary. I don't understand why you said the above. How have I spoken against the Lord's anointed? Isn't it so that our beloved leaders have advanced degrees, family money, excellent salaries, and prestigious careers? I'm only pointing out the facts as I have noted them from the Church News. However, I did my little study several years ago. Perhaps I'm out of date regarding the unwritten rule? I've said nothing against the leaders or against the Lord for that matter. I'm simply pointing out policy as I understand it based on my view of the results. I will admit that I used to annoyed about it in the past. But it is the Lord's church and he can do whatever he wants, so I have come to accept it. If the Lord wants a bricklayer for an apostle or a street sweeper--he can do it. But his policies show otherwise. Obviously hidden talents of blue collar men are not given the opportunity to serve in the highest leadership positions in the church. But this is the will of the Lord and so it goes. >I'm sure if we were to do a survey of SP's, and even Area A's you >would find a majority of them are humble "Laborers". I think the fact >that our beloved President Hinckley was a man of fairly meager means >should be enough. After all, shouldn't we all be laborers in the Lord's >vineyards? The statistics say otherwise, Val. I don't think Elder Hinkley was rich by any means but I'm sure he had sufficient for his means and he rose to the top of his class. That is the sort of man the Lord looks at before the call is made. >As for resources--we are told, time and time again, to get out of >debt and to save money. The men "UP" there have obviously done just >that. If you want to be there, then follow the prophet. Simple I'm working on it. :-) Paul O [EMAIL PROTECTED] Sign Up for Juno Platinum Internet Access Today Only $9.95 per month! Visit www.juno.com / /// ZION LIST CHARTER: Please read it at /// /// http://www.zionsbest.com/charter.html /// / ==^ This email was sent to: archive@jab.org EASY UNSUBSCRIBE click here: http://topica.com/u/?aaP9AU.bWix1n.YXJjaGl2 Or send an email to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] T O P I C A -- Register now to manage your mail! http://www.topica.com/partner/tag02/register ==^
[ZION] High Priests have money
You make it sound like these jobs were handed to them on a silver platter. Not so. They all started at the bottom, with no silver spoon in the mouth. Any money the GAs have, they earned it. Any education they received was from hard work. Do you think any of them had been wishing and hoping to become an apostle? Definitely not. Try reading President Kimball's biography on his reaction when called as an apostle. Ask your stake president his thoughts on being called a stake president. I'll bet he wasn't jumping for joy. Rather, he was humbling submitting to the calling. There is nothing prestigious to these callings. There is some recognition, but in all reality, the pay isn't that great. Most would prefer to make it to heaven without the experience of being an apostle or stake president, but the humble ones accept the call when given. These men are successful in life because they earned their success. In earning that success, they made themselves useful to God and His work. Of course God is probably going to call an educated man over a ditch digger. If you had a major struggle in your life, would you prefer your bishop be a psychiatrist or a day laborer? Educated or illiterate? Financially comfortable or standing by the roadside with a sign "will work for food"? God uses those who have qualified themselves for the work. Many are called, but few chosen. Many aren't chosen because they try and do things their way, rather than God's way. They want to use the priesthood for their own use, rather than make themselves a useful tool for God to use. The Brethren had comfortable lives because they earned a comfortable life. The prestige came only because they worked hard and earned it. If you or I don't receive prestige, it is probably because we haven't done anything prestigious. K'aya K'ama, Gerald/gary Smithgszion1 @juno.comhttp://www .geocities.com/rameumptom/index.html "No one is as hopelessly enslaved as the person who thinks he's free." - Johann Wolfgang von Goethe Paul: $$$ and prestige Need I say more? Sign Up for Juno Platinum Internet Access Today Only $9.95 per month! Visit www.juno.com / /// ZION LIST CHARTER: Please read it at /// /// http://www.zionsbest.com/charter.html /// / ==^ This email was sent to: archive@jab.org EASY UNSUBSCRIBE click here: http://topica.com/u/?aaP9AU.bWix1n.YXJjaGl2 Or send an email to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] T O P I C A -- Register now to manage your mail! http://www.topica.com/partner/tag02/register ==^
[ZION] High Priests have money
Paul, What is your definition of "money"? Is it $40,000? $50,000? $100,000? $1,000,000? Most school administrators I know make about $50K. So if that is your definition of "money", then you are right, most stake presidents AND High Priests have money. By the time they get to that age, they have saved up enough and worked their way up in their business enough to make $50K or more a year. But in all reality, $50K isn't really that much, depending of course on where you live in the US. K'aya K'ama, Gerald/gary Smithgszion1 @juno.comhttp://www .geocities.com/rameumptom/index.html "No one is as hopelessly enslaved as the person who thinks he's free." - Johann Wolfgang von Goethe Sign Up for Juno Platinum Internet Access Today Only $9.95 per month! Visit www.juno.com / /// ZION LIST CHARTER: Please read it at /// /// http://www.zionsbest.com/charter.html /// / ==^ This email was sent to: archive@jab.org EASY UNSUBSCRIBE click here: http://topica.com/u/?aaP9AU.bWix1n.YXJjaGl2 Or send an email to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] T O P I C A -- Register now to manage your mail! http://www.topica.com/partner/tag02/register ==^
[ZION] High Priests have money
I would say that most apostles will have money. There are exceptions, though fewer and fewer as the Church grows. Even today, many of our apostles are not wealthy, but are comfortable. President Monson has almost always worked in the Church, so basically lives on a stipend given him, plus revenues from the few books he's written, and salary for being on a few boards of companies (mostly Church related). Elder Packer was a college professor, not a wealth creating job. Of the earliest apostles, none were rich. Some were not educated (like Heber C Kimball). K'aya K'ama, Gerald/gary Smithgszion1 @juno.comhttp://www .geocities.com/rameumptom/index.html "No one is as hopelessly enslaved as the person who thinks he's free." - Johann Wolfgang von Goethe Paul: Right. And your "ALSO" points out that the money is required in order to get those high callings of Stake President and up. Thank you for making my point, Gary. The Lord will not call a poor man to be an apostle. Poor people are just not good enough for the job. You have to have money. Paul O Sign Up for Juno Platinum Internet Access Today Only $9.95 per month! Visit www.juno.com / /// ZION LIST CHARTER: Please read it at /// /// http://www.zionsbest.com/charter.html /// / ==^ This email was sent to: archive@jab.org EASY UNSUBSCRIBE click here: http://topica.com/u/?aaP9AU.bWix1n.YXJjaGl2 Or send an email to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] T O P I C A -- Register now to manage your mail! http://www.topica.com/partner/tag02/register ==^
Re: [ZION] High Priests have money
On Wed, 23 Oct 2002 18:09:51 -0500 Paul Osborne <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> writes: > > Did I say that a man had to be wealthy to become a GA? The unwritten > rule > is that he has to have money and resources. He almost always has a > prestigious job and a fine education. That is what the Lord is > looking > for. If you don't have those benefits you can't be called to be a > GA, let > alone a SP. The Lord doesn't accept manual laborers into the > apostleship. > .:*~*:._.:*~*:._.:*~*:._.:*~*:._.:*~*:._.:*~*:._.:*~*:._.:*~*:. «¤»¥«¤»§«¤»¥«¤»§«¤»¥«¤»§«¤»¥«¤»§«¤»¥«¤»§«¤»¥«¤ Dear Paul: I must wholly disagree here. Our former stake president is only high school educated and a construction worker. He was my Bishop when I was a little girl, and back then he was managing a health spa. In fact, we had no font in the building, so I was baptized in the pool at the spa. They always lived in very modest homes--not luxurious at all. He is also one of the most spiritual men I have ever known. The SP before him lost his job, was supporting a son on a mission, AND SP. They were living out of their food storage for many months while he was unemployed. Again, probably THE most spiritual man I have ever known. He spoke at my husband's funeral in March. I swear, he still speaks directly to the Lord. I don't know how you can know who the Lord accepts and who He doesn't anyway? You must have some bitter experience to be speaking this way about the Lord's annointed. I believe the scriptures are clear when we are told we need nothing more that a broken heart and a contrite spirit. I see nothing there about advanced degrees or family money or an excellent salary. I'm sure if we were to do a survey of SP's, and even Area A's you would find a majority of them are humble "Laborers". I think the fact that our beloved President Hinckley was a man of fairly meager means should be enough. After all, shouldn't we all be laborers in the Lord's vineyards? As for resources--we are told, time and time again, to get out of debt and to save money. The men "UP" there have obviously done just that. If you want to be there, then follow the prophet. Simple. val [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] / /// ZION LIST CHARTER: Please read it at /// /// http://www.zionsbest.com/charter.html /// / ==^^=== This email was sent to: archive@jab.org EASY UNSUBSCRIBE click here: http://topica.com/u/?aaP9AU.bWix1n.YXJjaGl2 Or send an email to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] T O P I C A -- Register now to manage your mail! http://www.topica.com/partner/tag02/register ==^^===
Re: [ZION] High Priests have money
>Will we ever see a janitor, a manual laborer, a machinist, a farmer, a rancher, as an >apostle? A janitor, a manual laborer, and a machinist are not qualified to become apostles but a rich rancher and a rich farmer could be considered. Paul O [EMAIL PROTECTED] Sign Up for Juno Platinum Internet Access Today Only $9.95 per month! Visit www.juno.com / /// ZION LIST CHARTER: Please read it at /// /// http://www.zionsbest.com/charter.html /// / ==^ This email was sent to: archive@jab.org EASY UNSUBSCRIBE click here: http://topica.com/u/?aaP9AU.bWix1n.YXJjaGl2 Or send an email to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] T O P I C A -- Register now to manage your mail! http://www.topica.com/partner/tag02/register ==^
Re: [ZION] High Priests have money
>Here are some of the former occupations of all the current apostles. Neither President >Hinckley nor President Packer could have become wealthy from their employment, so >Paul's theory fails in those cases (granted, they may have made money from their >books, investments, consulting fees, etc.). All or almost all the Brethren have >university degrees and several have multiple degrees. None appear to have been >mainly manual labourers. Did I say that a man had to be wealthy to become a GA? The unwritten rule is that he has to have money and resources. He almost always has a prestigious job and a fine education. That is what the Lord is looking for. If you don't have those benefits you can't be called to be a GA, let alone a SP. The Lord doesn't accept manual laborers into the apostleship. >President Hinckley: employee of the Church since completing his mission. Yes, and he worked with the finest men. You can't do that unless your getting a pretty good salary. He worked his way to the top. >President Monson: general manager of Deseret Press. >President Faust: attorney (lawyer). $$$ and prestige. >President Packer: pilot during WWII, supervisor of Seminaries and Institutes of >Religion. A pilot is about the most prestiges job in all of the armed forces. I'll bet he had a fine salary as he worked his way up in the church religious system which is certainly a prestiges place to be by LDS standards. >Elder Perry: vice president and treasurer of department store chain in Boston. >Elder Haight: district and regional manager of large retail store chain, assistant to >president of BYU. $$$ and prestige >Elder Maxwell: executive vice president of the University of Utah, Church >commissioner of education. >Elder Nelson: Renowned surgeon and medical researcher. $$$ and prestige >Elder Oaks: nine years as president of BYU, and three years as Utah Supreme Court >justice. >Elder Ballard: various business enterprises, including automotive, real estate and investments. $$$ and prestige >Elder Wirthlin: president of trade association in Utah. >Elder Scott: Worked 12 years developing military and private nuclear power reactors; >subsequently consultant to nuclear power industry. $$$ and prestige >Elder Hales: jet fighter pilot; was an executive with four major national companies. >Elder Holland: president of Brigham Young University. >Elder Eyring: president of Ricks College, 1971-77 $$$ and prestige Need I say more? Paul O [EMAIL PROTECTED] Sign Up for Juno Platinum Internet Access Today Only $9.95 per month! Visit www.juno.com / /// ZION LIST CHARTER: Please read it at /// /// http://www.zionsbest.com/charter.html /// / ==^ This email was sent to: archive@jab.org EASY UNSUBSCRIBE click here: http://topica.com/u/?aaP9AU.bWix1n.YXJjaGl2 Or send an email to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] T O P I C A -- Register now to manage your mail! http://www.topica.com/partner/tag02/register ==^
Re: [ZION] High Priests have money -- not
Actually in the 3rd world a larger than proportional share of line authority callings go to Church/CES employees. And, as I loved to tease Grant Johnson (I think that's his name -- the Book of Mormon Answerman who infuriated many LDS by saying that only those soldiers who fought for the Allies in WWII were righteous) by pointing out that Elder Uchtdorf used to be a Luftwaffe fighter pilot (mind you, he was too young to have served during the war). He retired and became a civilian pilot, for Lufthansa and several of its subsidiaries, iirc, and eventually came to be the chief training pilot for Lufthansa (that was told to me by the chief training pilot for Air New Zealand, who had by coincidence contacted me via email once about something, and found out I was LDS -- he wasn't, but told me this about Elder Uchtdorf, saying he was widely respected in the industry). Paul Osborne wrote: > >I can assure you that money is not a requirement in order to > >be called as a stake president. > > I followed it for years in the Church News and have clearly seen that the > money guys get the callings. I can't deny those facts. The guys who get > called in third world countries are the merchants and they have money > too. It's one of those unwritten rules. > ;-) > > >I can further assure you that stake president is not a high > >calling. > > Well, he is the boss of my Elders Quroum President. And, I look up to him > too. > > >And while I'm here, I would also add that high priest is not > >a higher office in the Melchizedek Priesthood, just a different > >office, with specialized (and temporary) responsibilities. > > Ok. Have a nice day. :-) > > Paul O > [EMAIL PROTECTED] > > > > Sign Up for Juno Platinum Internet Access Today > > Only $9.95 per month! > > Visit www.juno.com > > / > /// ZION LIST CHARTER: Please read it at /// > /// http://www.zionsbest.com/charter.html /// > / > -- Marc A. Schindler Spruce Grove, Alberta, Canada -- Gateway to the Boreal Parkland We do not think that there is an incompatibility between words and deeds; the worst thing is to rush into action before the consequences have been properly debated To think of the future and wait was merely another way of saying one was a coward; any idea of moderation was just an attempt to disguise ones unmanly character; ability to understand a question from all sides meant that one was totally unfitted for action. Pericles about his fellow-Athenians, as quoted by Thucydides in The Peloponessian Wars Note: This communication represents the informal personal views of the author solely; its contents do not necessarily reflect those of the authors employer, nor those of any organization with which the author may be associated. / /// ZION LIST CHARTER: Please read it at /// /// http://www.zionsbest.com/charter.html /// / ==^^=== This email was sent to: archive@jab.org EASY UNSUBSCRIBE click here: http://topica.com/u/?aaP9AU.bWix1n.YXJjaGl2 Or send an email to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] T O P I C A -- Register now to manage your mail! http://www.topica.com/partner/tag02/register ==^^===
Re: [ZION] High Priests have money
Gee...it seems to me that President Hinckley worked for his entire professional life for the Church Missionary Department (or some such like that). I'm pretty sure that one doesn't get rich working for the Church. I'm also sure that these brethren have been faithful in paying 100% tithing, which opens the windows of heaven to pour out blessings on them. I am also sure that paying one's tithing makes one more conscious of where the money is going and thus more careful of it, and more likely to save a higher percentage of it. Just a few thoughts...nothing more... Heidi the fair > [Original Message] > From: <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> > To: <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> > Date: 10/23/2002 2:04:59 PM > Subject: Re: [ZION] High Priests have money > > Will we ever see a janitor, a manual laborer, a machinist, a farmer, a rancher, as an apostle? > > To test this out - what are the current or former occupations of the apostles? > > Its interesting that a carpenter ended up saving mankind. > > > Vic > > > --- Paul Osborne <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote: > >>Don't condemn the brethren simply because it seems the Lord (or the > >>people) picks a lot of wealthy people. He does it because they ALSO have > >>shown other great gifts of service, wisdom, and faithfulness. > > > > > > > >Right. And your "ALSO" points out that the money is required in order to > >get those high callings of Stake President and up. Thank you for making > >my point, Gary. > > > >The Lord will not call a poor man to be an apostle. Poor people are just > >not good enough for the job. You have to have money. > > > >Paul O > >[EMAIL PROTECTED] > > > > > >Sign Up for Juno Platinum Internet Access Today > >Only $9.95 per month! > >Visit www.juno.com > > > >/// // > >/// ZION LIST CHARTER: Please read it at /// > >/// http://www.zionsbest.com/charter.html /// > >/// // > > > > _ > Washington DC's Largest FREE Email service. ---> http://www.DCemail.com ---> A Washington Online Community Member ---> > http://www.DCpages.com > > _ > Select your own custom email address for FREE! Get [EMAIL PROTECTED] w/No Ads, 6MB, POP & more! http://www.everyone.net/selectmail?campaign=tag > > / > /// ZION LIST CHARTER: Please read it at /// > /// http://www.zionsbest.com/charter.html /// > / > Heidi Page [EMAIL PROTECTED] / /// ZION LIST CHARTER: Please read it at /// /// http://www.zionsbest.com/charter.html /// / ==^ This email was sent to: archive@jab.org EASY UNSUBSCRIBE click here: http://topica.com/u/?aaP9AU.bWix1n.YXJjaGl2 Or send an email to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] T O P I C A -- Register now to manage your mail! http://www.topica.com/partner/tag02/register ==^
Re: [ZION] High Priests have money
Mark Gregson wrote: > > > To test this out - what are the current or former occupations of the apostles? > > Here are some of the former occupations of all the current apostles. Neither >President Hinckley nor President Packer could have become wealthy from their >employment, so Paul's theory fails in those cases (granted, they may have made money >from their books, investments, consulting fees, etc.). All or almost all the >Brethren have university degrees and several have multiple degrees. None appear to >have been mainly manual labourers. > > President Hinckley: employee of the Church since completing his mission. > Specifically, most of his later Church career, professionally speaking, was spent in either journalism- or public affairs-related positions. > > President Monson: general manager of Deseret Press. > So does he report to Sister Dew now? (who's president and CEO of Deseret Book Co.) [just teasing. I know that Pres. Monson is no longer the GM of Deseret News] > > President Faust: attorney (lawyer). > > President Packer: pilot during WWII, supervisor of Seminaries and Institutes of >Religion. > > Elder Perry: vice president and treasurer of department store chain in Boston. > > Elder Haight: district and regional manager of large retail store chain, assistant >to president of BYU. > > Elder Maxwell: executive vice president of the University of Utah, Church >commissioner of education. > > Elder Nelson: Renowned surgeon and medical researcher. > > Elder Oaks: nine years as president of BYU, and three years as Utah Supreme Court >justice. > > Elder Ballard: various business enterprises, including automotive, real estate and >investments. > > Elder Wirthlin: president of trade association in Utah. > > Elder Scott: Worked 12 years developing military and private nuclear power reactors; >subsequently consultant to nuclear power industry. > > Elder Hales: jet fighter pilot; was an executive with four major national companies. > > Elder Holland: president of Brigham Young University. > > Elder Eyring: president of Ricks College, 1971-77. > > = Mark Gregson [EMAIL PROTECTED] = -- Marc A. Schindler Spruce Grove, Alberta, Canada -- Gateway to the Boreal Parkland We do not think that there is an incompatibility between words and deeds; the worst thing is to rush into action before the consequences have been properly debated To think of the future and wait was merely another way of saying one was a coward; any idea of moderation was just an attempt to disguise ones unmanly character; ability to understand a question from all sides meant that one was totally unfitted for action. Pericles about his fellow-Athenians, as quoted by Thucydides in The Peloponessian Wars Note: This communication represents the informal personal views of the author solely; its contents do not necessarily reflect those of the authors employer, nor those of any organization with which the author may be associated. / /// ZION LIST CHARTER: Please read it at /// /// http://www.zionsbest.com/charter.html /// / ==^^=== This email was sent to: archive@jab.org EASY UNSUBSCRIBE click here: http://topica.com/u/?aaP9AU.bWix1n.YXJjaGl2 Or send an email to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] T O P I C A -- Register now to manage your mail! http://www.topica.com/partner/tag02/register ==^^===
Re: [ZION] High Priests have money
> To test this out - what are the current or former occupations of the apostles? Here are some of the former occupations of all the current apostles. Neither President Hinckley nor President Packer could have become wealthy from their employment, so Paul's theory fails in those cases (granted, they may have made money from their books, investments, consulting fees, etc.). All or almost all the Brethren have university degrees and several have multiple degrees. None appear to have been mainly manual labourers. President Hinckley: employee of the Church since completing his mission. President Monson: general manager of Deseret Press. President Faust: attorney (lawyer). President Packer: pilot during WWII, supervisor of Seminaries and Institutes of Religion. Elder Perry: vice president and treasurer of department store chain in Boston. Elder Haight: district and regional manager of large retail store chain, assistant to president of BYU. Elder Maxwell: executive vice president of the University of Utah, Church commissioner of education. Elder Nelson: Renowned surgeon and medical researcher. Elder Oaks: nine years as president of BYU, and three years as Utah Supreme Court justice. Elder Ballard: various business enterprises, including automotive, real estate and investments. Elder Wirthlin: president of trade association in Utah. Elder Scott: Worked 12 years developing military and private nuclear power reactors; subsequently consultant to nuclear power industry. Elder Hales: jet fighter pilot; was an executive with four major national companies. Elder Holland: president of Brigham Young University. Elder Eyring: president of Ricks College, 1971-77. = Mark Gregson [EMAIL PROTECTED] = -- __ Download the FREE Opera browser at www.opera.com/download/ Free OperaMail at http://www.operamail.com/ Powered by Outblaze / /// ZION LIST CHARTER: Please read it at /// /// http://www.zionsbest.com/charter.html /// / ==^ This email was sent to: archive@jab.org EASY UNSUBSCRIBE click here: http://topica.com/u/?aaP9AU.bWix1n.YXJjaGl2 Or send an email to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] T O P I C A -- Register now to manage your mail! http://www.topica.com/partner/tag02/register ==^
RE: [ZION] High Priests have money -- not
Paul Osborne: >I can assure you that money is not a requirement in order to >be called as a stake president. I followed it for years in the Church News and have clearly seen that the money guys get the callings. I can't deny those facts. ... It's one of those unwritten rules. ;-) ___ Glad to note you have a sense of humor, since I have never seen any facts in the Church News that tell how much stake presidents get paid in their work. I will agree that many do well. The same skills of hard work, administrative experience, and leadership they have gained in Church callings serve to benefit them in their work, as well. But not all of them are well-paid "money guys". I know several who served while living under the poverty level. And we know what those unwritten rules are, because they are actually written down and posted at John's website. :-) Larry Jackson [EMAIL PROTECTED] Sign Up for Juno Platinum Internet Access Today Only $9.95 per month! Visit www.juno.com / /// ZION LIST CHARTER: Please read it at /// /// http://www.zionsbest.com/charter.html /// / ==^ This email was sent to: archive@jab.org EASY UNSUBSCRIBE click here: http://topica.com/u/?aaP9AU.bWix1n.YXJjaGl2 Or send an email to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] T O P I C A -- Register now to manage your mail! http://www.topica.com/partner/tag02/register ==^
Re: [ZION] High Priests have money
Will we ever see a janitor, a manual laborer, a machinist, a farmer, a rancher, as an apostle? To test this out - what are the current or former occupations of the apostles? Its interesting that a carpenter ended up saving mankind. Vic --- Paul Osborne <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote: >>Don't condemn the brethren simply because it seems the Lord (or the >>people) picks a lot of wealthy people. He does it because they ALSO have >>shown other great gifts of service, wisdom, and faithfulness. > > > >Right. And your "ALSO" points out that the money is required in order to >get those high callings of Stake President and up. Thank you for making >my point, Gary. > >The Lord will not call a poor man to be an apostle. Poor people are just >not good enough for the job. You have to have money. > >Paul O >[EMAIL PROTECTED] > > >Sign Up for Juno Platinum Internet Access Today >Only $9.95 per month! >Visit www.juno.com > >/ >/// ZION LIST CHARTER: Please read it at /// >/// http://www.zionsbest.com/charter.html /// >/ > _ Washington DC's Largest FREE Email service. ---> http://www.DCemail.com ---> A Washington Online Community Member ---> http://www.DCpages.com _ Select your own custom email address for FREE! Get [EMAIL PROTECTED] w/No Ads, 6MB, POP & more! http://www.everyone.net/selectmail?campaign=tag / /// ZION LIST CHARTER: Please read it at /// /// http://www.zionsbest.com/charter.html /// / ==^ This email was sent to: archive@jab.org EASY UNSUBSCRIBE click here: http://topica.com/u/?aaP9AU.bWix1n.YXJjaGl2 Or send an email to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] T O P I C A -- Register now to manage your mail! http://www.topica.com/partner/tag02/register ==^
Re: [ZION] High Priests have money
>My former stake president was a public school teacher and later an >administrator and my current stake president is in a similar income >bracket. Both of them are most likely below the 50th percentile with >regard to income within the stake boundaries. > >How can you justify statements like that, Paul? The Lord will call whom >He will call, income notwithstanding. That's really odd. But administrators make more money than everyone else under the administration so he has the most money. I'm right and you're wrong. Where do you live? Yes, the Lord calls whoever he wants but they always have money, resources, and prestige. Paul O [EMAIL PROTECTED] Sign Up for Juno Platinum Internet Access Today Only $9.95 per month! Visit www.juno.com / /// ZION LIST CHARTER: Please read it at /// /// http://www.zionsbest.com/charter.html /// / ==^ This email was sent to: archive@jab.org EASY UNSUBSCRIBE click here: http://topica.com/u/?aaP9AU.bWix1n.YXJjaGl2 Or send an email to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] T O P I C A -- Register now to manage your mail! http://www.topica.com/partner/tag02/register ==^
Re: [ZION] High Priests have money -- not
>I can assure you that money is not a requirement in order to >be called as a stake president. I followed it for years in the Church News and have clearly seen that the money guys get the callings. I can't deny those facts. The guys who get called in third world countries are the merchants and they have money too. It's one of those unwritten rules. ;-) >I can further assure you that stake president is not a high >calling. Well, he is the boss of my Elders Quroum President. And, I look up to him too. >And while I'm here, I would also add that high priest is not >a higher office in the Melchizedek Priesthood, just a different >office, with specialized (and temporary) responsibilities. Ok. Have a nice day. :-) Paul O [EMAIL PROTECTED] Sign Up for Juno Platinum Internet Access Today Only $9.95 per month! Visit www.juno.com / /// ZION LIST CHARTER: Please read it at /// /// http://www.zionsbest.com/charter.html /// / ==^ This email was sent to: archive@jab.org EASY UNSUBSCRIBE click here: http://topica.com/u/?aaP9AU.bWix1n.YXJjaGl2 Or send an email to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] T O P I C A -- Register now to manage your mail! http://www.topica.com/partner/tag02/register ==^
RE: [ZION] High Priests have money
> -Original Message- > From: Paul Osborne [mailto:osborne1962@;juno.com] > > Right. And your "ALSO" points out that the money is required > in order to get those high callings of Stake President and > up. Thank you for making my point, Gary. My former stake president was a public school teacher and later an administrator and my current stake president is in a similar income bracket. Both of them are most likely below the 50th percentile with regard to income within the stake boundaries. How can you justify statements like that, Paul? The Lord will call whom He will call, income notwithstanding. --Jeff. / /// ZION LIST CHARTER: Please read it at /// /// http://www.zionsbest.com/charter.html /// / ==^ This email was sent to: archive@jab.org EASY UNSUBSCRIBE click here: http://topica.com/u/?aaP9AU.bWix1n.YXJjaGl2 Or send an email to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] T O P I C A -- Register now to manage your mail! http://www.topica.com/partner/tag02/register ==^
RE: [ZION] High Priests have money
-Paul- > The Lord will not call a poor man to be an apostle. Poor people > are just not good enough for the job. You have to have money. If I remember correctly, Elder Packer spent his professional life in the CES, a job practically guaranteed to keep you dressed in rags. Stephen / /// ZION LIST CHARTER: Please read it at /// /// http://www.zionsbest.com/charter.html /// / ==^ This email was sent to: archive@jab.org EASY UNSUBSCRIBE click here: http://topica.com/u/?aaP9AU.bWix1n.YXJjaGl2 Or send an email to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] T O P I C A -- Register now to manage your mail! http://www.topica.com/partner/tag02/register ==^
RE: [ZION] High Priests have money -- not
Paul Osborne (replying to someone else): Right. And your "ALSO" points out that the money is required in order to get those high callings of Stake President and up. ___ I can assure you that money is not a requirement in order to be called as a stake president. I can further assure you that stake president is not a high calling. And while I'm here, I would also add that high priest is not a higher office in the Melchizedek Priesthood, just a different office, with specialized (and temporary) responsibilities. Larry Jackson [EMAIL PROTECTED] Sign Up for Juno Platinum Internet Access Today Only $9.95 per month! Visit www.juno.com / /// ZION LIST CHARTER: Please read it at /// /// http://www.zionsbest.com/charter.html /// / ==^ This email was sent to: archive@jab.org EASY UNSUBSCRIBE click here: http://topica.com/u/?aaP9AU.bWix1n.YXJjaGl2 Or send an email to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] T O P I C A -- Register now to manage your mail! http://www.topica.com/partner/tag02/register ==^
Re: [ZION] High Priests have money
Phew! Now at least I don't have to worry about dealing with THAT calling! Jon > The Lord will not call a poor man to be an apostle. Poor people are just > not good enough for the job. You have to have money. / /// ZION LIST CHARTER: Please read it at /// /// http://www.zionsbest.com/charter.html /// / ==^ This email was sent to: archive@jab.org EASY UNSUBSCRIBE click here: http://topica.com/u/?aaP9AU.bWix1n.YXJjaGl2 Or send an email to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] T O P I C A -- Register now to manage your mail! http://www.topica.com/partner/tag02/register ==^
Re: [ZION] High Priests have money
>Don't condemn the brethren simply because it seems the Lord (or the >people) picks a lot of wealthy people. He does it because they ALSO have >shown other great gifts of service, wisdom, and faithfulness. Right. And your "ALSO" points out that the money is required in order to get those high callings of Stake President and up. Thank you for making my point, Gary. The Lord will not call a poor man to be an apostle. Poor people are just not good enough for the job. You have to have money. Paul O [EMAIL PROTECTED] Sign Up for Juno Platinum Internet Access Today Only $9.95 per month! Visit www.juno.com / /// ZION LIST CHARTER: Please read it at /// /// http://www.zionsbest.com/charter.html /// / ==^ This email was sent to: archive@jab.org EASY UNSUBSCRIBE click here: http://topica.com/u/?aaP9AU.bWix1n.YXJjaGl2 Or send an email to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] T O P I C A -- Register now to manage your mail! http://www.topica.com/partner/tag02/register ==^
Re: [ZION] High Priests have money
I was referring to Stake President and up. They have money and prestige. There are plenty of talented yet poor High Priests who never get the call because they don't have money. Money is a prerequisite to those callings. I hope that it doesn't sound like I am faulting the Lord. I'm simply pointing out how the Lord does business. He depends on money and if you don't have it you won't get those high callings of Stake President and up. That's the bottom line. It's always about money. Paul O --- On Wed, 23 Oct 2002 00:02:00 -0500 Gary Smith <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> writes: > I have to disagree with Paul on this one. I know several high priests > who > barely eke out a living. I've been one for 14 years, and was only a > Buck > Sergeant in the Air Force when first called. I promise you, they > don't > get the big bucks. > > My current bishop works as the general carpenter for the YMCAs here. > To > make ends meet, his wife also works (their kids are all big). And I > could > give you many other examples, and not only here in Alabama, either. > > Yes, I think that the Lord has finances as a consideration for who > he > calls to certain callings. Moreso, I think the Lord considers a > person's > talents and capabilities for a certain calling, especially in a > presidency. Just as the Lord is going to call a healthy brother to > be > bishop, over one that is homebound; The brother who has developed > many > talents is of much more use to the Lord in the work than one who has > not > developed his talents. Such a brother is likely to have become > successful > in business also. > > Next, the Lord uses people who work hard. Imagine a bishop who only > gives > a couple hours a week to the calling. The ward would fall apart! The > Lord > looks for hard workers, dependable people who he knows will > sacrifice the > television programs and leisure time, in order to serve faithfully. > This > type of person also happens to be the type who tends to succeed in > business. > > Don't condemn the brethren simply because it seems the Lord (or the > people) picks a lot of wealthy people. He does it because they ALSO > have > shown other great gifts of service, wisdom, and faithfulness. Sign Up for Juno Platinum Internet Access Today Only $9.95 per month! Visit www.juno.com / /// ZION LIST CHARTER: Please read it at /// /// http://www.zionsbest.com/charter.html /// / ==^ This email was sent to: archive@jab.org EASY UNSUBSCRIBE click here: http://topica.com/u/?aaP9AU.bWix1n.YXJjaGl2 Or send an email to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] T O P I C A -- Register now to manage your mail! http://www.topica.com/partner/tag02/register ==^
[ZION] High Priests have money
I have to disagree with Paul on this one. I know several high priests who barely eke out a living. I've been one for 14 years, and was only a Buck Sergeant in the Air Force when first called. I promise you, they don't get the big bucks. My current bishop works as the general carpenter for the YMCAs here. To make ends meet, his wife also works (their kids are all big). And I could give you many other examples, and not only here in Alabama, either. Yes, I think that the Lord has finances as a consideration for who he calls to certain callings. Moreso, I think the Lord considers a person's talents and capabilities for a certain calling, especially in a presidency. Just as the Lord is going to call a healthy brother to be bishop, over one that is homebound; The brother who has developed many talents is of much more use to the Lord in the work than one who has not developed his talents. Such a brother is likely to have become successful in business also. Next, the Lord uses people who work hard. Imagine a bishop who only gives a couple hours a week to the calling. The ward would fall apart! The Lord looks for hard workers, dependable people who he knows will sacrifice the television programs and leisure time, in order to serve faithfully. This type of person also happens to be the type who tends to succeed in business. Don't condemn the brethren simply because it seems the Lord (or the people) picks a lot of wealthy people. He does it because they ALSO have shown other great gifts of service, wisdom, and faithfulness. K'aya K'ama, Gerald/gary Smithgszion1 @juno.comhttp://www .geocities.com/rameumptom/index.html "No one is as hopelessly enslaved as the person who thinks he's free." - Johann Wolfgang von Goethe Sign Up for Juno Platinum Internet Access Today Only $9.95 per month! Visit www.juno.com / /// ZION LIST CHARTER: Please read it at /// /// http://www.zionsbest.com/charter.html /// / ==^ This email was sent to: archive@jab.org EASY UNSUBSCRIBE click here: http://topica.com/u/?aaP9AU.bWix1n.YXJjaGl2 Or send an email to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] T O P I C A -- Register now to manage your mail! http://www.topica.com/partner/tag02/register ==^
Re: [ZION] High priests have money
I think I see your point, even past the tongue in your cheek, and hadn't thought about that. The Lord needs a pool to draw from, and the HP are that pool, so whether any given HP is or is not eventually called to what I keep calling a posiiton of line authority (to use a secular term) is irrelevant. Is that what you're saying? It makes sense to me. In fact, it reminds me in many ways of a talk BRMcC gave in, iirc, 1975, at a Friday Forum at the U of Utah Institute of Religion. He said there were more than enough men in the Church who were spiritually competent to be GAs, but the Church also needs secular skills of leadership, management and experience (sometimes in specialized areas, and here I think of 2 of my fellow nationals, Alexander Morrison, an "Africa man" and N. Eldon Tanner, who is largely credited with saving the Church's finances in the early 60s. Both of them were "fast-tracked" into GA-hood, if I can put it that way). Paul Osborne wrote: > On Mon, 21 Oct 2002 18:54:03 -0600 "Marc A. Schindler" > <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> writes: > > Okay, this is all very interesting and very useful (and I mean that > > sincerely), > > so let me ask another question: what about those of us who are > > unlikely, for one > > reason or another (assuming, of course, that we're reasonably > > righteous, > > temple-recommend-holding active members) are highly unlikely to hold > > a position > > of line authority. Why are people like that ordained to High > > Priests. > > > > I know there's an implicit assumption here, so I'll make it > > explicit: I'm > > assuming that there are people in this set (I think I'm one of > > them). But I could > > be wrong -- it's an assumption. > > $$$ High Callings $$$ > > It's all about money, Marc. Money attracts and inspires more money and > that is how it works. If you got money you're much more likely set > yourself up for one them high positions that come available. People who > have money are considered to be more successful then others and they are > the ones that are usually considered by those praying about a new calling > to be extended. The Lord just can't get his work done without the > Almighty Buck! I've heard all the excuses that this isn't so but the > bottom line is always the dollar. Oh well, the church is still true--aah, > I think. ;-) > > Paul O > [EMAIL PROTECTED] > > > > Sign Up for Juno Platinum Internet Access Today > > Only $9.95 per month! > > Visit www.juno.com > > / > /// ZION LIST CHARTER: Please read it at /// > /// http://www.zionsbest.com/charter.html /// > / > -- Marc A. Schindler Spruce Grove, Alberta, Canada -- Gateway to the Boreal Parkland We do not think that there is an incompatibility between words and deeds; the worst thing is to rush into action before the consequences have been properly debated To think of the future and wait was merely another way of saying one was a coward; any idea of moderation was just an attempt to disguise ones unmanly character; ability to understand a question from all sides meant that one was totally unfitted for action. Pericles about his fellow-Athenians, as quoted by Thucydides in The Peloponessian Wars Note: This communication represents the informal personal views of the author solely; its contents do not necessarily reflect those of the authors employer, nor those of any organization with which the author may be associated. / /// ZION LIST CHARTER: Please read it at /// /// http://www.zionsbest.com/charter.html /// / ==^^=== This email was sent to: archive@jab.org EASY UNSUBSCRIBE click here: http://topica.com/u/?aaP9AU.bWix1n.YXJjaGl2 Or send an email to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] T O P I C A -- Register now to manage your mail! http://www.topica.com/partner/tag02/register ==^^===
Re: [ZION] High priests have money
On Mon, 21 Oct 2002 18:54:03 -0600 "Marc A. Schindler" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> writes: > Okay, this is all very interesting and very useful (and I mean that > sincerely), > so let me ask another question: what about those of us who are > unlikely, for one > reason or another (assuming, of course, that we're reasonably > righteous, > temple-recommend-holding active members) are highly unlikely to hold > a position > of line authority. Why are people like that ordained to High > Priests. > > I know there's an implicit assumption here, so I'll make it > explicit: I'm > assuming that there are people in this set (I think I'm one of > them). But I could > be wrong -- it's an assumption. $$$ High Callings $$$ It's all about money, Marc. Money attracts and inspires more money and that is how it works. If you got money you're much more likely set yourself up for one them high positions that come available. People who have money are considered to be more successful then others and they are the ones that are usually considered by those praying about a new calling to be extended. The Lord just can't get his work done without the Almighty Buck! I've heard all the excuses that this isn't so but the bottom line is always the dollar. Oh well, the church is still true--aah, I think. ;-) Paul O [EMAIL PROTECTED] Sign Up for Juno Platinum Internet Access Today Only $9.95 per month! Visit www.juno.com / /// ZION LIST CHARTER: Please read it at /// /// http://www.zionsbest.com/charter.html /// / ==^ This email was sent to: archive@jab.org EASY UNSUBSCRIBE click here: http://topica.com/u/?aaP9AU.bWix1n.YXJjaGl2 Or send an email to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] T O P I C A -- Register now to manage your mail! http://www.topica.com/partner/tag02/register ==^
