[Zope-dev] Mint Templating Language Questions
I have been trying to figure out which templating language to use with ZTFY. I really like mint. https://pypi.python.org/pypi/mint/0.5 It is simple, clean, small. It is like moinmoin, makes it very easy to create html. And you can create and inherit or override python functions that return a chunk of html. It also appears that it works as an html-free templating language for javascript or emails. PERFECT! I know one person who recommended it, he is using it with zope, although not with ZCA. He got rid of zope.publisher. Another person and I are thinking of using it. Has anyone tried it? Had a good or bad experience with it? Of course it would be great to find an egg that integrates mint into the ZCA. But perhaps it does not do multiple languages well. If you are curious here are my comments on the other templating languages. http://zopache.com/TemplatingLanguages Any comments on mint with zope would be most appreciated. Chris -- I run http://Django.SpecialtyJobMarkets.com Regards Christopher Lozinski The future of Zope http://ZOPACHE.COM On Digital Design http://OOHDL.COM ___ Zope-Dev maillist - Zope-Dev@zope.org https://mail.zope.org/mailman/listinfo/zope-dev ** No cross posts or HTML encoding! ** (Related lists - https://mail.zope.org/mailman/listinfo/zope-announce https://mail.zope.org/mailman/listinfo/zope )
[Zope-dev] What have I done so far?
On 5/21/13 11:57 PM, Andreas Jung wrote: > What have you done so far and what did you contribute > so far? I have downloaded and installed ZTFY, and given Thierry lots of feedback. Perhaps I even changed his direction more towards wikis as a ZTFY application, instead of blogs. We will see what happens. That is a marketing activity, not a software development activity, on my part. I have created most of wiki.ztfy.org Documenting open source software is a great way to understand it. I have created a high level introduction into the the packages in ZTK http://www.zopache.com/ZTK_Package I have figured out the market niche for ZTFY. Sure it is a blog and CMS. But there are many of those. It is an extensible blog and CMS. Because it is based on ZCA, it is more flexible than existing CMS. If Plone meets your needs, perfect, use it. But if you find Plone not sufficiently flexible, then it makes sense to move to ZTFY. The announcement is ready to go out. Over the last two weeks, I have persuaded a developer to use ZTFY as his content management application server for javascript applications. That makes him the third user of ztfy. And I tell you the first few users are by far the hardest ones to get. The rest come much faster. I helped him through the blue bream hello world demo. Actually I figured out the bug in the tutorial. http://www.zopache.com/HelloWorld I have contracted out the first release of Zopache http://zopache.com/RFP_Intro That page also covers the detailed ongoing Specs of what I am building. And my consultant has downloaded and installed ztfy, and given Thierry his feedback. Which makes the consultant the 4th user of ztfy. I have been encouraging others to post on these mailing lists, and I have been answering questions on the mailing lists. And finally, with your help, we have made this mailing list much livelier. All good. But really your question of what I have contributed so far is quite hostile. If we want new users for ZTK, we should be much more friendly to people on these mailing lists. In fact the new ZTFY user posted on these mailing lists, I sent him a nice warm reply, soon we were talking, and now he is both committed to ZTFY and understands why it is the best choice in the market for his needs. I totally understand that there is way too much work to be done here. That is why I am looking for consultants to contract it out to. Actually that is why I am being really nice to newbies, in the hope that they will join and contribute. This new guy does not like Page Templates. He wants to use Jinja2. I pointed him towards Megrok.Jinja. I am optimistic that he will migrate megrok.jinja to ztfy because he needs it for his own purposes. We have already walked through the code There are a few grok imports we still have to figure out how to get rid of. http://www.zopache.com/RFP_Jinja2 See how easy it is to bring people into the fold! I encourage you to be nice to others. It works! And then when they need to, they contribute open source software. It is the only way it happens. Thanks again for the help with the Javascript question! Chris ___ Zope-Dev maillist - Zope-Dev@zope.org https://mail.zope.org/mailman/listinfo/zope-dev ** No cross posts or HTML encoding! ** (Related lists - https://mail.zope.org/mailman/listinfo/zope-announce https://mail.zope.org/mailman/listinfo/zope )
Re: [Zope-dev] ZCA for javascript
> I suggest to move on to a Javascript community and continue > do discuss there. Nowaday we have framework like backbone.js, angular.js > on the client for doing state-of-the-art client-side JS implementations. > Or stuff like Obviel (from Martijn Faasen, a long time contributor of > Zope). Thank you. That is the information I needed. I will take a look at Obviel first. It must contain a lot of these ideas. On 5/21/13 11:32 PM, Andreas Jung wrote: > Like always: you're thoughtd and reasoning are years behind of what > people actually do today or using nowadays. I remember your pointless > discussions on ZClasses - years ago, Not pointless. I figured out how to do it. I now know how to implement ZClasses on Zope 3. http://zopache.com/RFP_LozinskiClasses Just took a while longer than it should have. To much discouragement here. > years after we kicked ZClasses > completely. There you go. You have a personal policy of kicking out ideas. Very closed minded. Actually a very simplified version of Schema TTW is included in the open source project schooltools. http://book.schooltool.org/demographics-schema.html It is a huge pity a better version is not readily available to all of us. That one is GPL. Such a product, would greatly have helped more widespread adoption of Zope 3. > Don't take it personally but all your questions and communication > over the last decade it based on very little technical insight and > experience. Application design and decisions should be left > to other persons. That works for me, as long as zope marketing is not left to you! ___ Zope-Dev maillist - Zope-Dev@zope.org https://mail.zope.org/mailman/listinfo/zope-dev ** No cross posts or HTML encoding! ** (Related lists - https://mail.zope.org/mailman/listinfo/zope-announce https://mail.zope.org/mailman/listinfo/zope )
Re: [Zope-dev] ZCA for javascript
On 5/21/13 11:22 PM, Andreas Jung wrote: > > Should laugh or run and cry? Neither. You should tell me what is wrong with the idea. I think adaptors are a good tool for components. ZCA is the only system I know of for doing this. Clearly it needs to be ported to Javascript, but that is easy compared to figuring out all the issues. So what is the problem. Is there a reason you cannot have adaptors in Javascript??? And as a general note, I would have been much further along if I had not received such hostility from this mailing list in the past. Chris ___ Zope-Dev maillist - Zope-Dev@zope.org https://mail.zope.org/mailman/listinfo/zope-dev ** No cross posts or HTML encoding! ** (Related lists - https://mail.zope.org/mailman/listinfo/zope-announce https://mail.zope.org/mailman/listinfo/zope )
[Zope-dev] ZCA for javascript
ZCA is very interesting stuff. I got a call today from a client who wants to do an extensible application in Javacript. I instantly thought, we could do ZCA in Javascript. And while not many people likes ZODB servers, they all love Javascript clients. Has anyone done something like this? Is anyone interested in doing something like this? What do you think And forgive me if this is not strictly speaking about zope development, but this email list is certainly the community of people who would be interested in this topic. And while we are discussing Javascript, which zope packages should I be using for Javascript development and templating? Megrok.Jinja? Regards Christopher Lozinski ___ Zope-Dev maillist - Zope-Dev@zope.org https://mail.zope.org/mailman/listinfo/zope-dev ** No cross posts or HTML encoding! ** (Related lists - https://mail.zope.org/mailman/listinfo/zope-announce https://mail.zope.org/mailman/listinfo/zope )
Re: [Zope-dev] zookeeper + mailing lists
> We have really *enough* dead Zope related mailing lists. Nobody needs > new lists. For a project with very little effort going on and with a > stagnating audience: what we have is good enough. > Makes sense to me. Let me see if I understand you correctly??? Does that mean that it is now acceptable to discuss ztfy issues on zope-dev > -aj > > -- I run http://Django.SpecialtyJobMarkets.com Regards Christopher Lozinski The future of Zope http://ZOPACHE.COM On Digital Design http://OOHDL.COM ___ Zope-Dev maillist - Zope-Dev@zope.org https://mail.zope.org/mailman/listinfo/zope-dev ** No cross posts or HTML encoding! ** (Related lists - https://mail.zope.org/mailman/listinfo/zope-announce https://mail.zope.org/mailman/listinfo/zope )
[Zope-dev] zookeeper + mailing lists
On 5/8/13 3:30 AM, Dave Cahill wrote: on the zope-3 mailing lists. > Hi, > > I was using the export_tree method in zc.zk to dump a zookeeper tree today, > and some nodes which have no data had garbage data dumped instead of an > empty string. I think this is an issue in the underlying zookeeper library, > but there is a simple patch to avoid the issue (attached), so if possible > it would be nice to see it added in zc.zk. > > Here's a link to the patch in case attachements aren't allowed on the list: > https://gist.github.com/davecahill/5539050 > > I'm new here, so if I should be posting on one of the the other Zope lists, > please let me know. > > Thanks, > Dave. > A quick google search shows that zookeeper is an apache tool for keeping apache server configuration information. I think this post belongs on zope-dev, so I am reposting it for the author, along with a brief answer to his questions on mailing lists. Nice to see people working on this stuff. The mailing lists and the names are in a bit of a confusion. The zope-3 mailing list has been dead as long as I can remember. zope-dev is for people building the core libraries. As such I think that your patch qualifies for a posting on that list. So I copied it to there. yahoo has several zope mailing lists. The spanish and Portuguese lists are strong. For reasons I cannot understand, I am not able to post on the english list, z...@yahoogroups.com, and the error message mentions egroups, they got bought out by yahoo 10 years ago, I suspect that the admin for the yahoo groups mailing list is retired without replacement. there is the bluebream mailing list, but since there is no bluebream release currently available, that seems quite dead. And of course the zope-dev mailing list keeps getting the zope-tests results, which is short term information, and thus pollutes the long term archives and gets copied to the yahoo mailing lists making it hard to find useful information. Rather than just complaining, let me make my suggestions. I would love to see a zope-tests mailing lists. That way the people who want that information can get it. And those of us who don't dont. And then zope-dev could be for the core zope devlopers. And it would be great to see ztk-usrs mailing list. I have asked Thierrry for a ztfy mailing list. I think that will happen. In the meantime, I have put up a zopache mailing list for those who are interested in ztk being used TTW (Through The Web).. http://tech.groups.yahoo.com/group/zopache/ Hope that helps. Chris please let me know. Thanks, Dave. ___ Zope-Dev maillist - Zope-Dev@zope.org https://mail.zope.org/mailman/listinfo/zope-dev ** No cross posts or HTML encoding! ** (Related lists - https://mail.zope.org/mailman/listinfo/zope-announce https://mail.zope.org/mailman/listinfo/zope )
Re: [Zope-dev] Error: Picked: Jinja2 = 2.6
First I am delighted to see that someone is doing a new bluebream application. There seem to be so few of us. What is your starting point?? There has been no release of bluebream for ages. For me, my starting point is ZTFY.org He does a great job supporting it, and the release is quite recent. The docs are getting good too. wiki.ztfy.org My next question is about getting Jinja2 to work. I know about megrok.jinja2, but it is not at all clear to me how to get it to run with bluebream/ztfy I even wrote up a page about it. http://zopache.com/RFP_Jinja2 A quick search for jinja2 on pypi indicates a version for Django, a version for flask, a version for pyramid, but no version for ztk What are you using as a Jinja2 release for Bluebream? -- I run http://Django.SpecialtyJobMarkets.com Regards Christopher Lozinski The future of Zope http://ZOPACHE.COM On Digital Design http://OOHDL.COM ___ Zope-Dev maillist - Zope-Dev@zope.org https://mail.zope.org/mailman/listinfo/zope-dev ** No cross posts or HTML encoding! ** (Related lists - https://mail.zope.org/mailman/listinfo/zope-announce https://mail.zope.org/mailman/listinfo/zope )
[Zope-dev] zam.demo fixed
The bug was that the included bootstrap.py did not work. If you use the bootstrap.py from the zam.demo svn directory it does not start. I used a more recent bootstrap.py copied from my ztfy directory, thank You Thierry, and it starts fine. It looks gorgeous. Thanks to all the authors who put in all that hard work. srichter, icemac, rogerineichen et al. I presume that this is the right place to report that bug. And the fix! You can take a look at zam.demo running at demo.zopache.org:8080 User:Manager Password: password Here is the high level zam.demo documentation which I am updating. http://wiki.zopache.org/ZamDocumentation And here is a copy of the low level file system documentation wiki.zopache.org/ZAM That is easier to access than digging through the file system. ZAM provides a large part of what I need for a TTW development environment. Sadly its navigation view, the one that should implement listing objects in a folder, adding, renaming, deleting, and exporting them has not been implemented. The page template file in zam.skin is empty. For that functionality I can use ZMI. So I need to first get ZMI working with ZAM, and then copy over some of the ZMI source code to zam.skin. It is not so easy. ZAM uses an older release of ZTK, from two years ago. Specifically it uses a different version of ZCA interface than ZTFY uses. So I cannot add zam.demo to ZTFY. Going the other way, ZAM does not have a setup.py file. How is that possible? I thought setup.py did a whole bunch of important things. Do I go ahead and update the buildout.cfg file with the zmi? , or do I redo the zam.demo installation scripts to use a setup.py file? What I really need to do is hire a senior ztk developer to provide me with high level guidance. Anyone interested? Regards Chris ___ Zope-Dev maillist - Zope-Dev@zope.org https://mail.zope.org/mailman/listinfo/zope-dev ** No cross posts or HTML encoding! ** (Related lists - https://mail.zope.org/mailman/listinfo/zope-announce https://mail.zope.org/mailman/listinfo/zope )
Re: [Zope-dev] Remove zmi_views menus from zope.file?
On 5/28/12 7:22 AM, Uli Fouquet wrote: > It's at least interesting to find other non-zope.app packages that register zmi_views components. I think these could/should be fixed as well. I would do that, if people tell me what packages there are. Here you go. zope.app.dtmlpage-3.5.0-py2.6.egg Thank you. -- Regards Christopher Lozinski Check out my iPhone apps TextFaster and EmailFaster http://textfaster.com Expect a paradigm shift. http://MyHDLClass.com:8080 ___ Zope-Dev maillist - Zope-Dev@zope.org https://mail.zope.org/mailman/listinfo/zope-dev ** No cross posts or HTML encoding! ** (Related lists - https://mail.zope.org/mailman/listinfo/zope-announce https://mail.zope.org/mailman/listinfo/zope )
Re: [Zope-dev] Remove zmi_views menus from zope.file?
Well this has been bothering me as well, so I am delighted to see this thread. I started off with the release of ZTFY that includes a ZMI. I added in DTML. It could not find the zmi_views. When I remove those lines from ZCML all is happy, except the menu items are not there. I thought maybe zmi_views was renamed. Guess not based on this thread. I am stumped. There is some reason to believe that ZTFY implemented its own ZMI, sure looks the same. In which case I have to poke around in that package to figure out what the menu is called. But if that is not the case, I have no idea why it cannot find zmi_views. Maybe next I will try adding zope.file to see what happens. I have other things I am working on so I put this on the back burner, but interesting to see this thread. -- Regards Christopher Lozinski Check out my iPhone apps TextFaster and EmailFaster http://textfaster.com Expect a paradigm shift. http://MyHDLClass.com:8080 ___ Zope-Dev maillist - Zope-Dev@zope.org https://mail.zope.org/mailman/listinfo/zope-dev ** No cross posts or HTML encoding! ** (Related lists - https://mail.zope.org/mailman/listinfo/zope-announce https://mail.zope.org/mailman/listinfo/zope )
[Zope-dev] ZAM Demo Documentation
There are a number of people interested in ZAM, and a lot of discussion about a new ZMI, even an upcoming sprint so I am trying to do my part to get zam.demo installing correctly. Of course the error message was completely incomprehensible, I did not have the context. So step 1 is to figure out how ZAM works. I went to read the source code. Very nicely documented. Thanks to the authors. But there is no high level documentation, so I wrote this user level document. Writing this helped me understand ZAM better. And in general I think a great way for new developers to work with Zope is to write documentation, because then it helps us understand what we are doing, makes it easier to get feedback, and smooths the path for those coming after us. So here is where I left off six months ago. https://mail.zope.org/pipermail/zope-dev/2011-June/043089.html What follows is the updated version. ZAM User Documentation. ZAM is a browser based interface to BlueBream. It allows us to interact with the running BlueBream server. It provides three types of services. Administration services tell you about the Unix processes, and the ZODB databases. Error services tell you about server errors which have occurred. Hierarchy services allow one to interact with the ZODB hierarchy of objects. ADMINISTRATION SERVICES (zamplugin.control) This wepage has links to runtime information, ZODB information, Generations, and Registration. To access it you go to http://localhost/++skin++ZAM/++etc++ApplicationController/index.html The runtime information includes the following: Uptime, System platform, Zope version, Python version, Command line used to start the server, Preferred encoding, Process id, Developer mode on or off, and the Python path ZODB control includes a list of ZODB databases, their file system name, current size, and the ability to pack them, keeping up to X number of days of version. Generations describes the versions of ZODB schemas, and is a way of updating the objects as the schema changes. Impressive! Registrations allow objects to be registered as adaptors or user interfaces. This is a complex topic which requires an understanding of the Zope Component Architecture. In general beginners do not need to worry about this. ERROR SERVICES (zamplugin.error) You can see the error logs here. http://localhost/++skin++ZAM/++etc++site/default/RootErrorReportingUtility Looks very nice, much like the Zope 2 error reports. You get Time, User,and exception. You can click on the exception for more details, the Request URL, Traceback, user permissions, and the full REQUEST object. HIERARCHY SERVICES (zamplugin.sitemanager, zamplugin.navigation) Bluebream stores objects in the Zope Object Database. Objects are stored in a tree. The allows one to navigate the tree, browse objects, cut, copy, paste, and rename those objects. In the current version, when enabled, it is possible to add objects to the tree. In future versions this may also require developer permisssion. I am not sure which part of the interface is handled by the site manager, and which part is handled by navigation. zamplugin.sampledata From pypi: "A sample data generator is a pluggable tool to create data needed for tests." Not really sure what this does either. If you want to learn more about ZAM, go into the source code. Go into the eggs directory and type more zam*/zam*/*/README.txt That gets you all of the source code docs. There are several different sections. There is zam.api which provides the core functionality. There is the best README.txt in this section. It explains the ZAM plugin framework. You can add or remove a plugin, but obviously only once. It talks about a base registry plugin. They talk about the layers model. Layers are all about the stuff in the skin, described below. zam.skin contains all the "HTML, JS, CSS and image components" The other directories correspond to the user interfaces described above. QUESTION: So where should i put this documentation? My next step is to try to run zam.demo again, and see if the error message makes any more sense to me than it did this morning. -- Regards Christopher Lozinski Check out my iPhone apps TextFaster and EmailFaster http://textfaster.com Expect a paradigm shift. http://MyHDL.org ___ Zope-Dev maillist - Zope-Dev@zope.org https://mail.zope.org/mailman/listinfo/zope-dev ** No cross posts or HTML encoding! ** (Related lists - https://mail.zope.org/mailman/listinfo/zope-announce https://mail.zope.org/mailman/listinfo/zope )
Re: [Zope-dev] ZAM/ZMI Demo
> > > Having different roles will help greatly yes, and even if we end up with > multiple packages that would still be a great idea to have, but again, if I > don't > expect (want) my users to use this browsing interface at all, why should I > load all its code when the server start ? > > That just increase the application footprint for nothing, and designing the > new > ZMI in two or three packages (not 50) would solve it. Makes sense to me. Two or three roles, and two or three packages. One role per package. In any case it should be possible to split ZAM out into different pieces. I am really glad to see that multiple people are interested in building on ZAM and working with it. That motivates me to work on it. Thank you so much Roger for pointing out the + sign for adding objects in the ZAM interface. Now I just need to figure out how to get it to work! Regards Chris ___ Zope-Dev maillist - Zope-Dev@zope.org https://mail.zope.org/mailman/listinfo/zope-dev ** No cross posts or HTML encoding! ** (Related lists - https://mail.zope.org/mailman/listinfo/zope-announce https://mail.zope.org/mailman/listinfo/zope )
Re: [Zope-dev] ZAM/ZMI Demo
Very good point about different user types. Maybe we could have different permissions on the different roles, and people only get to see their version. Right now there is just a single ZMI permission. At least in Zope 2 that was the case. So I suggest we have 3 new roles. System Administrator, Zope Administrator, Zope Developer. System administrator could view the database size, pack it, and start and stop zope. That is about it. Zope administrator could also move things around and delete things.Maybe add a few types of objects, such as cache objects. Zope developer could add arbitrary objects. I think this distinction would go a long way towards resolving the conflicts I have seen over the years about the ZMI. What do you think? Regards Chris On 2/6/12 7:07 AM, Sylvain Viollon wrote: > Hello, > > Op 6 feb 2012, om 10:26 heeft Lennart Regebro het volgende geschreven: > >> This is at least an important attitude. >> I think also a future admin interface to a large extent should lose >> many of the ZMI concepts. For example, we need several management >> tools, like what is in the control panel at the moment. But that >> should be separate from the browsing of objects. That browsing should >> instead be a rather low-level ZODB browser, IMO. >> > That would be great, for my part to be able to have the management tools > (packing and such) in a separate package than the object browsing (and even > the object actions, if you want to keep them, I don't want them). > > For some projects, I don't wish people to be able to browser the ZODB > objects > and fucked up things by copying, renaming objects and things like that, but > I still want them to able to access the packing screen and such tools. > > And for this same reason, those two package should not depend on each > others, so I say +1. > > Regards, > > Sylvain, > > -- Regards Christopher Lozinski Check out my iPhone apps TextFaster and EmailFaster http://textfaster.com Expect a paradigm shift. http://MyHDL.org ___ Zope-Dev maillist - Zope-Dev@zope.org https://mail.zope.org/mailman/listinfo/zope-dev ** No cross posts or HTML encoding! ** (Related lists - https://mail.zope.org/mailman/listinfo/zope-announce https://mail.zope.org/mailman/listinfo/zope )
[Zope-dev] ZAM/ZMI Demo
On 2/1/12 10:39 AM, Laurence Rowe wrote: > I wasn't able to get zam.demo (svn trunk) to run, so I don't have an > opinion on ZAM itself at the moment. Note that Zope 4 is based on Zope > 2 rather than BlueBream so I don't know how much of the existing work > would still be applicable. Not being able to fire up the demo is a problem. Since people are talking about upgrading the ZMI, they should take a look at ZAM, but it does not currently install correctly. So you can take at an older install here: http://ejr0.x.rootbsd.net:8080/ Login:Manager Password:password I will leave it up for a few days. If anyone wants to see it in the future, and it is down, just ask me to fire it up. It has Copy, Cut, Rename, Delete. No Add. So I am going back to the ugly ZMI. Hope this helps the people who are thinking of working on the ZMI. Also it is interesting to look at ice.control. -- Regards Christopher Lozinski Check out my iPhone apps TextFaster and EmailFaster http://textfaster.com Expect a paradigm shift. http://MyHDL.org ___ Zope-Dev maillist - Zope-Dev@zope.org https://mail.zope.org/mailman/listinfo/zope-dev ** No cross posts or HTML encoding! ** (Related lists - https://mail.zope.org/mailman/listinfo/zope-announce https://mail.zope.org/mailman/listinfo/zope )
Re: [Zope-dev] Zope 4 ZMI sprint report
Thank you for the sprint report. I think it is great that you are working on upgrading the ZMI. I am also turning my attention to this problem. Clearly ZMI needs an upgrade. I need an upgraded ZMI. Today I fired up my old version of ZAM. I can give you a password and url if you want to see what it looks like.My understanding is that it is a well thought out upgrade for the ZMI. Properly done with page templates, not dtml, and pluggable. It certainly looks nice. Of course it has copy, cut, delete, rename, but no create. I also did a reinstall of the ZAM demo, but it broke. Am I doing the wrong thing working on ZAM? Is that consistent with the direction others are taking on upgrading the ZMI, or should I be putting my energy elsewhere? If I am doing the right thing working on ZAM, perhaps the first thing I should do is get the install working again correctly. For that I have to get svn access from the Zope foundation. I presume Larry Rowe is the release manager for Zope 4, so he is the person who signs off on the upgrades to ZAM? Do I understand the process correctly? Is ZAM part of Zope 4? Is it the basis of the new ZMI, or is something else the new ZMI? -- Regards Christopher Lozinski Check out my iPhone apps TextFaster and EmailFaster http://textfaster.com Expect a paradigm shift. http://MyHDL.org ___ Zope-Dev maillist - Zope-Dev@zope.org https://mail.zope.org/mailman/listinfo/zope-dev ** No cross posts or HTML encoding! ** (Related lists - https://mail.zope.org/mailman/listinfo/zope-announce https://mail.zope.org/mailman/listinfo/zope )
Re: [Zope-dev] direction
On 7/5/11 3:22 AM, zope-dev-requ...@zope.org wrote: Hanno writes: > Someone might try, but I think it's not a wise decision to spent any > resources that way. I am trying. I am trying to create a Zope 2 like TTW development environment on top of BlueBream. I have a small email list of people who see the world this way. While many core ZTK developers do not like TTW development, there are many of us zope users who do like it. May a thousand open-source flowers bloom. I am making progress. I have ice.control and ZAM running. I have the ZMI running on Zope 3.something.But I am finding it very hard work.I learned quite a bit from this discussion, thank you. All I have to do is subclass the OFS with something that also inherits from acquisition. Cool. And then integrate all the ZMI code into ZAM. Then get the rest of the content types working. I am stuck on figuring out which page template in ZAM to edit. And I am stuck on figuring out how to fire up the ZMI in Bluebream. I will figure it all out.Or I will hire some of the Bluebream guys in eastern Europe to help me figure it out. In any case I now have a project that needs it, so I am motivated. -- Regards Christopher Lozinski Check out my iPhone apps TextFaster and TouchTexting http://textfaster.com Expect a paradigm shift. http://MyHDL.org ___ Zope-Dev maillist - Zope-Dev@zope.org https://mail.zope.org/mailman/listinfo/zope-dev ** No cross posts or HTML encoding! ** (Related lists - https://mail.zope.org/mailman/listinfo/zope-announce https://mail.zope.org/mailman/listinfo/zope )
Re: [Zope-dev] dtml-sendmail issue
Break the problem up. First thing to do is to check if sendmail is working from the file system. on unix mail m...@mydomain.com If that breaks, you know what to fix. If that works, double check your configurations on your mailhost object. And finally try just a 3 line sendmail file. I have used dtml-sendmail a lot over the years. As far as I know it has always worked fine. Trust it, but not the code you have written, and you should be able to get it fixed quickly. -- Regards Christopher Lozinski Check out my iPhone apps TextFaster and EmailFaster http://textfaster.com Expect a paradigm shift. http://MyHDL.org ___ Zope-Dev maillist - Zope-Dev@zope.org https://mail.zope.org/mailman/listinfo/zope-dev ** No cross posts or HTML encoding! ** (Related lists - https://mail.zope.org/mailman/listinfo/zope-announce https://mail.zope.org/mailman/listinfo/zope )
[Zope-dev] Rotterdam ZMI???
Well I got Zam and ice.control working. One kind soul pointed out that the zmi allows one to add types TTW. I fired up a zope 3.4 server, and indeed it is true. Although ugly. So let me get the ZMI working with Bluebream. So I fired up Rotterdam inside of BlueBream. http://oilmaps.org/++skin++Rotterdam But it looks just like the default BB home page. At first I thought I did something wrong. If it is not crashing, I must have correctly installed Rotterdam. Now I think that Rotterdam must be the default home page. If that is the case how do I get the old ZMI interface with bluebream? Do I use Boston? Is the old ZMI even available with BlueBream? Lots of Google searches and reading the source documentation have not helped. To put it all in context. I am making progress. I have ice.control, ZAM, and now Rotterdam running. My confidence is growing. My speed is increasing. But I still have a long way to go to being productive in this environment. I think I need to hire a mentor. I did find one person who was a ZAM author, but he is in Europe, which is sadly a more expensive place to get help from. The list of Bluebream consultants seems to include bunch of companies from Eastern Europe. I am also thinking of buying a stack of books from Amazon. I wonder which ones I should get? Why is this path so hard? How can I help make it easier for others? -- Regards Christopher Lozinski Check out my iPhone apps TextFaster and EmailFaster http://textfaster.com Expect a paradigm shift. http://MyHDL.org ___ Zope-Dev maillist - Zope-Dev@zope.org https://mail.zope.org/mailman/listinfo/zope-dev ** No cross posts or HTML encoding! ** (Related lists - https://mail.zope.org/mailman/listinfo/zope-announce https://mail.zope.org/mailman/listinfo/zope )
[Zope-dev] ZAM and TTW development: progress report and two questions.
First an introduction, then a progress report, and finally the question. INTRODUCTION Well I am trying to create a Zope 2 like TTW development environment on ZTK. You can read my plans here: http://specialtyjobmarkets.com/Wikis/LozinskiClasses/FrontPage I finally have an application for it, so I am hard at work. I got ice.control working. I love its TTW python interpreter. I got ZAM working. The trick is to start by downloading the Zam.demo from svn. Many other attempts failed. I poked around in the code. Here is the high level structure for those who follow in my footsteps. Basically the designers wanted a bunch of different user interfaces which can be written separately, and each one can install itself or not. That way the core is not dependent on the individual interfaces. Evidently the old ZMI got this wrong. The whole ZAM application is based on templates. In the Zam.skin is template.pt which is the primary page template. So there is zam.api which provides the core functionality. There is the best README.txt in this section. Kind of explains things. Then zam.skin provides the user interface. Minor documentation. And then you can optionally add the plugins zamplugin.control This has the pack zodb functionality. And it has the os, python and zope versions. It also has generations of the ZODB, zamplugin.error You can see the error logs here. zamplugin.navigation. I am not sure what this does, nor how this differs from the site manager. zamplugin.sampledata From pypi: "A sample data generator is a pluggable tool to create data needed for tests." zamplugin.sitemanager This is the one we want. Looks almost like Zope 2, but no way to add objects. I think it should be easy to edit. So at the end I have a question about this. So of course all of this stuff is properly broken up in tiny pieces and put together using ZCML. Brutally painful to do software archeology on it. I have been reading the source code. I have been reading the bluebream manuals, but I am just not able to figure out the ZAM architecture. Some higher level documentation is needed. This is kind of a first draft. Oh well, nothing like persistence. Never met a software problem I could not figure out. But I would love some help. Actually I am completely convinced lots of people want TTW on Zope 3. Just poke around the web, so many people talk about it. Some do hate it of course. To each his own. Okay, so here is my immediate question. QUESTION I like the Zam site management view. I would like to build on it, by adding a drop down menu of types that can be added, much like in Zope 2. So simple, I thought, I just have to edit the appropriate page template, and then call the appropriate function. I can do this I thought. So I went to: .../eggs/zamplugin.sitemanager-0.6.0-py2.6.egg/zamplugin/sitemanager/sitemanager.pt but all it said was: Sitemanager I thought Page Templates had to be valid html. What is going on here? Okay, where did they hide that page template? Seriously, I was not able to find it anywhere. QUESTION 2 And then the other question is "how is all of this Zam stuff put together?" Is there a higher level architectural document somewhere. Figuring out the architecture from the source code is quite painful. I did offer to hire someone to help me, but no one who replied has Zam experience. I also have a private email list for those who are following my progress. Let me know if you want to be added. -- Regards Christopher Lozinski Check out my iPhone apps TextFaster and TouchTexting http://textfaster.com Expect a paradigm shift. http://MyHDL.org ___ Zope-Dev maillist - Zope-Dev@zope.org https://mail.zope.org/mailman/listinfo/zope-dev ** No cross posts or HTML encoding! ** (Related lists - https://mail.zope.org/mailman/listinfo/zope-announce https://mail.zope.org/mailman/listinfo/zope )
[Zope-dev] Different Zope 3.4.2 Newbie feedback
Here I am sharing my thoughts as a Zope 3.4.2 newbie. It is not meant to be a criticism. I am just trying to figure out what to do. Writing helps me think clearly. Maybe this will discussion will help some other people. So here is a tutorial. Thank you very much Paul Carduner. Just exactly what I was looking for. All I want to do is put up a simple content type, and see the list of objects, add them, create them, edit them. Look at a table of them. I also want to change the formatting on the display. Maybe make the description field to be a text area of a size of my choosing. So here is the tutorial. http://www.ibiblio.org/paulcarduner/z3ctutorial/forms.html#adding-z3c-form-and-z3c-formui-as-dependencies But it is just way too much work. A ZCML statement for every view. Give me a break. I want to throw out large parts of the ZTK, but keep other parts. I love large parts of the ZTK. Python is a great language ZODB is a super way to store python objects. Schema makes a lot of sense for defining data. Twisted has a great reputation, although I do not know it that well. >From what I have read of the new security mechanisms, they sound great. I would like to just define my content type, and have the rest of the stuff around it just show up magically. I like what the other person said about Plone. They went back to using it. Like that just works over there. The only trouble is then I am stuck with all the Plone legacy code. The app losses flexibility. What to do? So let me change my direction a little bit. I would like to do a product where you can define a content type in python on the file system, and all of the required add page, view page edit page, view a table of them pages just show up magically. And of course if I can ask for it, someone has already done it. Have you done it? Do you know where I can find this functionality. This application requires a bit more specification. What are the table headers. Which fields show up in the table. Maybe the table has different columns based on different user permissions. Who is allowed to edit which fields. Who is allowed to view which fields. I can imagine using acquisition to define permissions on all the content field variables. There are some table objects in ZTK, which I have not read in detail about yet. But it seems like this is such a common pattern. Surely it is out there? Any advice on which products to use? In some sense it is all about being closed minded rather than open minded. The ZTK toolkit allows you to build anything. I just want a simple app up fast. I just want a simple app (to start with) up and running with minimal code to be written or maintained. I guess I have so many different content types to bring up, I want to reuse the stuff that can be reused. So what ZTK packages should I look at to do this? Thanks for you help. Regards Chris ___ Zope-Dev maillist - Zope-Dev@zope.org https://mail.zope.org/mailman/listinfo/zope-dev ** No cross posts or HTML encoding! ** (Related lists - https://mail.zope.org/mailman/listinfo/zope-announce https://mail.zope.org/mailman/listinfo/zope )
[Zope-dev] ZTK TTW Content Types Project Wiki
So I am starting a project to build content types through the web using the ZTK. Here is the url. http://specialtyjobmarkets.com/Wikis/LozinskiClasses/FrontPage Thank you for the recent feedback. It is nice to know that people care. I have added a section reviewing the competing technologies, and why they are not right for my needs. I have laid out the technical proposal, a bit high level, I need to make it more specific. For example I need to add what is the interface that is needed by Factory objects. The great thing about ZTK is that somewhere that is documented. I have added a section on my software philosophies. I am sure that it will drive some people nuts, but others will agree with it. Allow me to have my point of view. I also respect your point of view. I do get a bunch of people who say I am nuts. So positive feedback would be most appreciated. And of courses it is an anonymous wiki. I am using the ZWiki software. You are invited to add your comments. I have no idea what you will say, but I am sure it is useful. Regards Chris ___ Zope-Dev maillist - Zope-Dev@zope.org https://mail.zope.org/mailman/listinfo/zope-dev ** No cross posts or HTML encoding! ** (Related lists - https://mail.zope.org/mailman/listinfo/zope-announce https://mail.zope.org/mailman/listinfo/zope )
[Zope-dev] Zope 3 Newbie Feedback
First of all my compliments to all of the people who put in enormous amounts of work first figuring out how to build Zope 3, and then building it. I am most grateful I hope that these comments help you better understand your market. I should say that I have been using Zope 2 since 1999 and watching Zope 3 for the longest time. I just could not get it. Python is cool, but interfaces, adaptors, zcml etc just made my eyes glaze over. I now understand why all that was necessary, but it was off putting. I finally have an app I need to write, but the complexity quite delayed my working with Zope 3. What is needed is a simple model to get people hooked. So how to make Blue Bream easier to use? I propose making the initial start up interface a simple content management system, kind of a Plone light. We all know there is way too much stuff under the hood of Plone. It slows software evolution. In contrast I know that Zope 3 is easy to evolve, just getting started is hard. So everyone starts in Plone, but never migrates to Zope 3. So a simple content management system out of the box would make it very easy to get started in Blue Bream. Then users could grow into the system. I know Plone just had a new release . I am not sure what all is in it, but it would be great if Zope 3 on startup looked just like Plone, as far as possible. Right out of the box allow users to register themselves, and add in the stock content types. Calendar item, news item, things like that, not the developer centric ZPT and DTML file. Also allow the developer stuff, but under a different branch of a hierarchical menu system.Maybe only people with a developer or manager permission see those kinds of items. There are three parts to a simple content management system. First, a way to generate new content types, and second some dtml or page templates to display them. Finally some examples would also be useful. So the critical thing I need is a way to put up custom content types using a web interface to build the schema. Maybe I could even add a few python scripts. And click on some options that usually go in an zcml file. That would make it super fast to put up a custom content type. That would make for a very easy entry for someone like myself into building a new BlueBream application. Then I need to add some DTML or page templates to display those content types. I can already do that right through the web. Finally a few existing content types like calendar item, link, and article would provide for great examples if anyone wanted to modify or copy them. They could be implemented through the web as examples or base classes to be inherited or modified. That would be an awesome demo. A real simple way to get started in Zope 3. A simple abstraction that would make it accessible to those stupider developers like myself. And everyone else out there. Once hooked, over time we could dig deeper. That is all I want. A simple content management system out of the box, make it easy to add my own content type. Sure the serious hackers can throw all that out, but for the average end user/developer, that would be a hugely tempting improvement over using Plone. If I can add a few dtml pages to display my content, it would all be very easy to get started. Later I could export to the file system, and svn. But that is not what I currently get. Instead, in my case, we will go with the system admin manually adding users for a while. And I have to learn how to write an interface file, which is way way more difficult than just using a web form to define one. The web form, lays out my choices, and only allows for legal schema definitions. Much better. Okay, so much for my wish list. Here are some more specific comments. Thank you for providing the user interface. Registration is quite confusing. First I create something, then I have to register it. Hello, if I created it, then just go ahead and register it for me. Take a ZPT page. I am a zope 2 developer. I know what that is. Then they ask me to register it. Took a while to figure out what that means. I still have no idea what all those options for interfaces are. If you have to have all those choices there, just label one default for me. It can't be that hard. Maybe register one by default, and provide the option to change it. Make the page say clearly that something has been registered. And have a clear link to the help page for choosing an interface to register. Or should I say change to. Then I cannot add a python script through the user interface. What happened to that stuff? Are python scripts dead? I loved them. Actually I Preferred the Zope 2 pull down menu of things to add. Over time it did get a bit long. Good to have a hierarchy of things to add. Best to have a hierarchy of things to add. Hope that helps. I really just want to give good feedback. I hope that I have not offended anyone with my frank feedback. O
Re: [Zope-dev] Re: Killer App for ZClasses
Lennart Regebro wrote: On 4/26/07, Dieter Maurer <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote: Andreas Jung wrote at 2007-4-25 22:13 +0200: > ... >But readable and comprehensible magic...but I would not call that magic. If I see at class level a function call "grok.context(something)", this does not look like "comprehensible magic". It sets the grok context to something. Is that really incomprehensible? From people's comments, here and on the archetypes mailing list, I am pretty convinced that there is support for a through the web editing environment, even from Alexander Limi, expert on human interfaces and co-author of Plone. There was talk about TTW for Zope 3, for Archetypes, but not for Zope 2. I understand that ZClasses are crufty inside. I now understand we can toss out propertysheets becasause Zope 8 allows protection of individual properties. I wish I had time to implement that. Right now I do not even have time to update the upgrade plans for ZClasses. They are on the wiki. I would love to see detailed documentation of Zope Product Classes. Perhaps we could create a cleaner ZClasses that just drives the Zope Product class. I would not even mind a server restart for each new class, evidently that is required for file system classes, but not ZClasses. No wonder ZClasses is strange. It had to be to make it possible to do more than Products can do. Detailed design documentation of Zope 2 Products would perhaps make it clear why ZClasses are implemented the way they are implemented. As for grok contexts, you are arguing about a blade of grass. Look at the forest. I would like to be able to build a complete app, a network of objects persisted on the the ZODB, with a couple of clicks. Then I could add methods on top of that. ZClasses gives me a path in that direction. I have some of my own tools to take me further. Why am I not going with Zope3?It seems like way too much overhead. But most importantly it does not give me the stuff I am really looking for. Sure it does some schema stuff, but that is mostly for 1 object and its user interface, rather than over the whole network of objects. Why are there schemas for the user interfaces, and interfaces for the other interfaces? Lack of symmetry. Zope3 checks that the next object in the network has the right interface. That is too complex for me. I just want to say that a person can have a role hiring manager, a role candidate, a role recruiter, or a role accountant. So Zope 3 does not provide the abstraction that I am looking for. Which leaves me with Zope 2. And I am back to building up my own desired abstractions on Zope 2. My point is not to make this flame war break out again. I just want to make sure there is clear documentation for an alternative point of view. Actually all of the criticism has been very helpful in getting me to better understand the issues. Regards Chris ___ Zope-Dev maillist - Zope-Dev@zope.org http://mail.zope.org/mailman/listinfo/zope-dev ** No cross posts or HTML encoding! ** (Related lists - http://mail.zope.org/mailman/listinfo/zope-announce http://mail.zope.org/mailman/listinfo/zope )
Re: [Zope-dev] ZClasses Maintenance and Upgrade
Dieter Maurer wrote: The main reason is that Zope only learned with Zope 2.8 how to protect attributes with elementary values. It took me a few minutes to get the full meaning of this. You mean I can do individual permissions on instance variables in Zope 2.8+ ! That means I can get rid of ZClass propertysheets in Zope 2.8 + And I can replace them with proper instance variables, with different permissions! AWESOME. BRILLIANT. FANTASTIC. Back into the ZClass source code I go. This is going to be very painful. Regards Chris ___ Zope-Dev maillist - Zope-Dev@zope.org http://mail.zope.org/mailman/listinfo/zope-dev ** No cross posts or HTML encoding! ** (Related lists - http://mail.zope.org/mailman/listinfo/zope-announce http://mail.zope.org/mailman/listinfo/zope )
Re: [Zope-dev] ZClasses Maintenance and Upgrade
Dieter Maurer wrote: Where does the parent class lists its legal children? In the Products Folder, for each ZClass there is a tab listing allowed subobjects. I think it would be better if the child listed the legal parents. But, then you need to have somewhere (else) a registry to list the children types which can be added in the current place. That explains why they are listed where they are listed. Thank you. Why do you want to distinguish between class and instance methods? So I can send a create message to something before I have any instances. Regards Chris ___ Zope-Dev maillist - Zope-Dev@zope.org http://mail.zope.org/mailman/listinfo/zope-dev ** No cross posts or HTML encoding! ** (Related lists - http://mail.zope.org/mailman/listinfo/zope-announce http://mail.zope.org/mailman/listinfo/zope )
[Zope-dev] Re: ZClassNG proposal makes Archetypes Easy.
But that isn't what he thinks he wants, :-) Allow me to speak for what i want. I am glad to hear that people think that there is a role for TTW editing. I am glad that there is a tool in Zope 3 for TTW editing. http://agendaless.com/Members/tseaver/software/userschema/ I am glad that there is a tool in Plone for TTW editing. ATSchemaEditorNG I wish there was a supported tool in Zope 2 for TTW Editing. Even better would be linux GUI development environment. It could also run on Windows. But that is just a dream. Sure there are python editors, that minimize the number of mistakes I can make, but it is better to have direct Zope editors, where the only things I can do are the ones that Zope allows me to do. I took a quick look at the CPS documentation in french, my french is not that good, it still looked like lots of opportunity for me to mistype python code. Maybe I was looking at the wrong page. And I would like these schema generators to understand not only specific python objects, but also the network of python business objects. I think that in Zope 3 a little bit of that is in there. A choice list for a field can be generated from some other list of objects. But I would love that network model of objects to be more deeply embedded into these frameworks. Specifically I am less interested in the interfaces, and more interested that a semiconductor factory can contain etchers, diffusion equipment etc. I am less concerned about the interfaces, and more concerned about the business relationships between objects. I am not quite sure how I want to specify that in software. I would like a security model based on business rules. I loved Zope 2, but I now understand and need more. I want to build a security model based on my business model. For example, Clients in a company who have the accounting privilege can see but not edit their companies invoices, and only their companies invoices. Recruiters can generate invoices, and see the account status for their clients, but not for other companies. Supervisors can see all the invoices pertaining to them, and see the financial reports for the recruiters they supervise. That is way different from the Zope 2 security model. Sure it can be implemented in Zope 2, but it is tricky, complex, prone to errors, hard to debug, and hard to test. I think Zope 3 comes closer to allowing me to build my own security model. Of course I would love such a security model in Zope 2, but I am not waiting for it. Maybe I could do it with 5. I would love my existing ZClasses to continue to work. There is another big issue. I like to minimize the number of lines of code in my application framework. This just minimizes my complexity. My pet theory, for which I have no proof, is that there is just too much stuff in the stack python/zope/cmf/archetypes/plone for it to be simple. For my next app the only thing I have approved so far is python and ZODB. The Zope 3 Schema component also looks interesting. I need to look at it more closely. Maybe Zope 3 Security will make it in. Keep the platform simple is my plan. I am just not willing to grab the whole Zope 3 bundle of stuff, and then add Grok on top of that to make it simpler. The decisions I make now, I have to live with for a long time.The need for grok is a signal to me that the Zope 3 abstraction is not the abstraction I am looking for. A much simpler solution for me is to build a business model on top of the ZODB, and then just access the few user interfaces from Zope 2. If you want to read more about what this zope customer is currently thinking you can read more here. http://webclasses.freerecruiting.com/BusinessClasses I will take a moment to mention a python gui editor for a tree of objects. It is GPL. It would be interesting to hook this up to the ZODB. http://www.bellz.org/treeline/ All your feedback, while difficult, has been very helpful in refining my thinking. Regards Chris ___ Zope-Dev maillist - Zope-Dev@zope.org http://mail.zope.org/mailman/listinfo/zope-dev ** No cross posts or HTML encoding! ** (Related lists - http://mail.zope.org/mailman/listinfo/zope-announce http://mail.zope.org/mailman/listinfo/zope )
[Zope-dev] ZClassNG proposal makes Archetypes Easy.
For those who have not been following this thread, here is the proposal. http://wiki.zope.org/zope2/ZClassesNG I will go ahead and change the name. I have a name proposal at the end of this email. Last night I realized that this proposal, will make it really easy for me to create Archetype Classes on Plone. Suddenly Plone development goes from painful to fast and easy, and I can build my new apps on Plone reasonably quickly. Which I need, because I am moving from a single person company to a multi-person company, and the whole approvals cycle is now becoming much more important to me. Just for completeness, I do need to respond to the specific feedback I received. If there is such an easy translation from ZMI-based ZClass to filesystem product, then why not write the filesystem product in the first place? There is room in the world for both through-the-web development and file system based development. On his personal home page http://zwiki.org/JimFulton Jim Fulton, the Zope Pope writes: "Make ZWiki subclassable from ZClasses. This will make it a lot easier to experiment and innovate." So I am in good company on the need for through-the-web development. Have you seen how many lines of code it takes on the file system to put up a simple product with 1 instance variable? I am just not as smart as others. I make mistakes. If I can do a simple point and click to create a product, I will make fewer mistakes, and it will be generated faster, and I have more time for other things. There is just too much software which needs to be written. You're assuming there is an obvious one-to-one mapping between ZClass syntax and non-ZClass products on the filesystem, which may or may not be true. That is a good point. I expect to see several different patterns to emerge, all of which can be supported. Right now I see multiple classes in a single product. You're relying on code generation, so you'll run into trouble when the two versions (ZODB and filesystem) diverge for whatever reason (someone edited the code, say). Good Point. Better only edit the code in one place or this problem will arise. I will add a read me to the file system, saying DO NOT EDIT THIS CODE ON THE FILE SYSTEM! And a flag, perhaps a file name, DO_NOT_OVERWRITE which will prevent overwrites. Just think, this will be the fastest way to generate a new zope product. That alone makes it useful! I added this comment to the proposal wiki. Thank you very much Martin! Also, Zope needs a restart to load a new product, which will mess with the workflow. Great Point. I hope this one is fixable. I would think it should be possible for Zope to be able to dynamically unload a Product, or load or reload a product. I wonder why it does not do so now? Is this fixable? Of course once the product is loaded, a refresh.txt option allows it to be changed and rewritten dynamically. But the bigger picture here is that an awful lot of people are telling you that spending your time on this is a bad idea, that you'll probably find it more difficult than you imagine, and that if you are going to invent new things, your time may be better spent pulling the same direction that most other people are. Well it all depends on how you define better. By all means, give it a go, but you will probably find it difficult to get help when you are stuck because (a) no-one else seems to care and Well maybe this is not the right mailing list. Let me go see what the archetypes mailing list thinks of all of this.Besides this is pretty easy to do. I have written file-system based products in Zope and Plone. (b) not many other people seem to even know how this should work. I think the best way to explain how it works is to put up a demo site. If I can improve the written description in any way, let me know. Which part of it do you personally not understand? Clicking to define instance variables? Autogenerating the File System Folder? Aquiring the instance folder at run-time to give the appearance of instance methods? I do agree with you on one point. It needs a different name. Can I call them LozinskiClasses? I am surprised more people do not ego-name products. Look a new word! Regards Chris ___ Zope-Dev maillist - Zope-Dev@zope.org http://mail.zope.org/mailman/listinfo/zope-dev ** No cross posts or HTML encoding! ** (Related lists - http://mail.zope.org/mailman/listinfo/zope-announce http://mail.zope.org/mailman/listinfo/zope )
[Zope-dev] ZClassNG and ProductNG proposal
I think I have figured out how to do it. This looks like a ZMI based ZClass, you can define it through the ZMI, you can add instance variables, you can add instance methods, all through the ZMI, but you can change inheritance, because it is really a product created on the file system. Check out the proposal. http://wiki.zope.org/zope2/ZClassesNGAndProductNG Thanks for all the good criticism. I am writing most of this on the proposal document on the wiki, rather than in an email, because I know it will change and evolve very rapidly. There is a place at the bottom of that wiki for you to write all the bad things about this proposal. Let me know if you want to work with me on this. Regards Chris ___ Zope-Dev maillist - Zope-Dev@zope.org http://mail.zope.org/mailman/listinfo/zope-dev ** No cross posts or HTML encoding! ** (Related lists - http://mail.zope.org/mailman/listinfo/zope-announce http://mail.zope.org/mailman/listinfo/zope )
[Zope-dev] The ZClass Decision I face
Thank you very much for all the support. A lot of it was warnings about the pitfalls facing me. There was an excellent email in support of Grok. I added that to the ZClass wiki. While I did not get any software written yet, I am pleased to say that I upgraded the Zope Wiki on ZClasses. Someone should find that helpful. It is clear that I have a very hard decision in front of me. Those of us who want to use ZClasses, have a very hard choice to make. Stay with a broken ZClass implementation, fix ZClasses and break Zope 2 and fork the Zope tree, or write a new version of ZClasses in Zope 3 and leave our legacy applications behind. I have been very happy with my Choice of Zope 2 many years ago. I now better understand its limitations. The problem is that whichever path I take, I have to live with it. Regards Chris ___ Zope-Dev maillist - Zope-Dev@zope.org http://mail.zope.org/mailman/listinfo/zope-dev ** No cross posts or HTML encoding! ** (Related lists - http://mail.zope.org/mailman/listinfo/zope-announce http://mail.zope.org/mailman/listinfo/zope )
[Zope-dev] ZClass Wiki Upgrade
Thanks for all the great feedback. I particularly liked someone's idea of upgrading the ZClass Wiki, so that there is a good source of information at 1 easily accessible location. I think it is very important as a community to operate on a shared blackboard. Not quite as good as writing code, but an important first step. http://wiki.zope.org/zope2/ZClasses I added a page on where I want ZClasses to go. There are two pages on the problems with ZClasses. Read that TWO! There is a page on alternatives to ZClasses. There is a link to the deprecation annoucement. I tried to add some formatting to the page. I am not sure how to make the word "ZClass" not link to the same page. I do have an accounting application I want to bring up quickly, and this seems to me the fastest way to bring it up, but also to have an upgrade path to the future. I invite you all to make your edits there. Regards Chris ___ Zope-Dev maillist - Zope-Dev@zope.org http://mail.zope.org/mailman/listinfo/zope-dev ** No cross posts or HTML encoding! ** (Related lists - http://mail.zope.org/mailman/listinfo/zope-announce http://mail.zope.org/mailman/listinfo/zope )
[Zope-dev] Why are ZClasses Dead
I keep getting these negative email messages. Here is the most recent example. >I think you should stop dreaming and face the reality. There is almost nobody interested of the developer community in ZClasses.. I have no idea what your >goal is with your ongoing ZClasses postings..you're on siding and there is no way back. My goal is to deliver maintain and expand the software my business needs to run. In particular I am looking for a very very fast development environment, so whatever changes a client needs, I can make right away. So I literally do not understand why people think ZClasses are dead. Let me go through the possible reasons. The last one is the real reason I think. 1. There is no demand for a through the web development environment that works. I just don't believe that. 2. ZClasses have the following bug. That sounds better. That bug needs to get fixed. I have yet to be hurt by a ZClass bug. Although there are some features I now want. 3. There is no one to maintain ZClasses Again not true, I need to do it for my own interests. I am at the point where I want to upgrade ZClasses. 4. ZClasses is a single user development environment. That is right, and I am a single user developer. Part time at that, I recruit the rest of the time. And I am looking for some good python developers if you are interested. The only reason I can do both jobs is that ZClasses allow me to develop my applications very fast. 5. You have to do everything in Python Classes on the file system. That is the right way to do things. Dogma has its place, but I have long since left organized religion. OUCH! 6. We are moving ZClasses out of the core. Makes sense to me. AND HERE IS THE REAL ISSUE I THINK 7. Because of the way Zope is written, you just cannot do ZClasses "right". You would have to change zope, and break lots of things. I think that is the core reason that some people say ZClasses are dead. I am just starting to understand it. I have been digging into the core of Zope. I keep excavating lower than I have ever excavated before. I would like to make a tree of classes, just like in the smalltalk browsers. Zope Products manager or whatever it is called does not like that. I would like a ZClass to have a subobject for every instance variable, and for that instance variable to say which role can read, and write it, independent of where you are in the ZODB tree. Not quite how Zope permissions work. So I think the structure of Zope prevents ZClasses from working correctly. Which is why ZClasses needs to die. Is that correct? Because to change the core of Zope is way too heretical. Better for ZClasses to die, than to change the core of Zope 2. Anyhow I would be grateful if any of the ZClasses-are-dead community would be more specific. Which reason makes you think that ZClasses are dead? Does anyone out there agree with my analysis? Regards Chris ___ Zope-Dev maillist - Zope-Dev@zope.org http://mail.zope.org/mailman/listinfo/zope-dev ** No cross posts or HTML encoding! ** (Related lists - http://mail.zope.org/mailman/listinfo/zope-announce http://mail.zope.org/mailman/listinfo/zope )
[Zope-dev] Killer App for ZClasses
Thank you very much for all the advice, and particularly for the list of problems with ZClasses. I had been thinking of jumping in and fixing some of those things. I am not quite sure where to start.What do I work on to benefit ZClasses, while taking care of my immediate business needs? I also must be mindful that I do not represent enough users to get my changes to the Zope core to be accepted and integrated into the product. Last night, I was wondering what should I do? Not only technically, what should I fix first, but also socially how should I proceed? Fortuitously, this morning, my associate Christopher Appell, who has been doing a brilliant job, calls me up and says: I want an application where we, and clients can track invoices. What I heard him say is: I need a very simple app. Just 1 ZClass, an invoice object. Not even subitems on the invoice. I want to create these ZClasses, I want a table of these ZClasses, I want to be able to say which role gets to create these objects, which role gets to see which fields, and which role gets to edit which fields. I would also like a search form with a ZCatalog, and I would like an edit/create form. All I want is to define the fields of the Zclass, and have the rest magically appear. I want the application to be built really quickly. Can you deliver by Monday? I thought, hey, I bet a million people need such a simple web app. Let us make it really easy to implement craigslist or better. Let me go ahead and create a ZClass product, and go ahead and distribute it. Lots of people would use it. Or at least enough to build up a critical mass. And then as some of those people go ahead and stretch the boundaries of the app, they will fix all of the ZClass problems we all know about. They will fix them for their own reasons, which is of course what drives open source. What do you think? Is this an effective way to operate on the social medium which is open source? Of course those who want to deprecate ZClasses will think this is a terrible terrible idea. I am fine with ZClasses being a separate product. I have a much richer deeper long-term vision of where this is going, but the longest road begins with a single step. Regards Chris ___ Zope-Dev maillist - Zope-Dev@zope.org http://mail.zope.org/mailman/listinfo/zope-dev ** No cross posts or HTML encoding! ** (Related lists - http://mail.zope.org/mailman/listinfo/zope-announce http://mail.zope.org/mailman/listinfo/zope )
[Zope-dev] The problem with ZClasses is a symptom of two problems with Zope 2
Why are there such problems with ZClasses, when they were written by intelligent people? I think I now know the answer to that. I am pretty sure that the permissions mechanism makes ZClasses have propertysheets, so that access to variables can share a permission. I am pretty sure that the Products structure makes ZClasses have their create methods at the same level as the ZClass, rather than 1 level below the Z Class in a class methods folder. So what do I have to do to fix ZClasses? What I am thinking of doing is taking the newest release of Zope 2, and tossing out permissions, and tossing out the Products piece, and then putting in place what I need to do fast through the web development. I will put in place a simpler permissions system. I will miss Formulator and Localizer, because they are tied in with the existing permissions mechanisms. But they should migrate over easily. I will probably break everything else in sight in the process.Maybe I need to keep the Products piece, and put in place NewProducts or something like that. But I will have a very nice upgrade path for ZClass based applications. And why do I keep getting flamed?There is some world view that does not like my world view. Why are permissions so broken in Zope2. They are way too complex. Why has no one released Zope 2 with cleaner permissions? Because it breaks everything? Thank you to all the people who recommended that I use CMF or Python Classes, or Zope 3. None of those are quite what I want and need. ZClasses is close to what I need, I just need to fix it. Regards Christopher Lozinski ___ Zope-Dev maillist - Zope-Dev@zope.org http://mail.zope.org/mailman/listinfo/zope-dev ** No cross posts or HTML encoding! ** (Related lists - http://mail.zope.org/mailman/listinfo/zope-announce http://mail.zope.org/mailman/listinfo/zope )
[Zope-dev] ZClasses Maintenance and Upgrade
Well I have finally reached the stage where I am pushing the limits of ZClasses and would love an upgrade. Guess I need to do it myself. I run 38 specialty job boards, and am getting close to automatically putting up 300 more, each one has a custom ZClass. I am automatically generating ZClasses, Indexes, and Formulator Form's Fields. I don't like that each parent class lists its legal children, I think it would be better if the child listed the legal parents. The creation of an add permission for each of the 300 ZClasses I am about to generate also bothers me. I do not quite understand the design of ZClasses. I would expect that a class has three branches. One would be the class methods, one would be the instance methods, and one would be the list of instance variables. It would be nice if each instance variable had its own permission. Instead ZClasses has the create method and permissions at the same level as the ZClass. I think this is related to how zope handles Products. And then the instance variables are all on a propertysheet. I suspect this is because of how permissions are handled, there is computational efficiency in sharing a permission among the properties on a propertysheet. But I am not quite sure. Anyone want to enlighten me on this matter. I may take the liberty of calling up Jim Fulton for him to explain the history to me. On a related matter I think it would be great if we do a version of ZClasses that used the new Zope 3 permissions in 5, and that worked with the new ZODB concurrency control mechanisms. Regards Chris ___ Zope-Dev maillist - Zope-Dev@zope.org http://mail.zope.org/mailman/listinfo/zope-dev ** No cross posts or HTML encoding! ** (Related lists - http://mail.zope.org/mailman/listinfo/zope-announce http://mail.zope.org/mailman/listinfo/zope )
[Zope-dev] I Like ZClasses as a separate product, I like Democracy Better
I do like the idea of ZClasses as a separate product. Actually I think all of Zope should be an assembly of separate products. I would love to see multiple flavors of Zope each as an assembly of separate products. If we make ZClasses a separate product, does that mean we can get our own mailing list for ZClasses. Maybe a separate web site, wiki, etc? Maybe the 4 or 5 companies who care about ZClasses can get together and fund the upgrade. I am still not sure if the next version of my application will be in Zope 3 or not, but if it is, I see it as a completely separate code base. Accordingly, this rapid evolution of Zope, to make it compatible with Zope 3 drives a lot of us nuts. We would prefer to just see a stable Zope 2, and an incompatible Zope 3. But I get no say in the matter. Open source is good, democratic source would be better. I am not trying to upset people with this email message. I just want to present a different point of view. Chris ___ Zope-Dev maillist - Zope-Dev@zope.org http://mail.zope.org/mailman/listinfo/zope-dev ** No cross posts or HTML encoding! ** (Related lists - http://mail.zope.org/mailman/listinfo/zope-announce http://mail.zope.org/mailman/listinfo/zope )
[Zope-dev] Distributed Object Use Case for Zope 3 developers.
Martijn Faasen makes the point that it is important for the Zope 3 developers to have good use cases. So here we go. Here is my distributed Object use case for Zope 3 developers. Can I do this in Zope 3? I run a job board for each technology. I have one job board for zope/plone developers, and another one for Linux System Administrators. Right now I have quite low traffic, and I run all my job boards off of one zope instance. But if this should ever be a hit, I can imagine running one zope instance per job board, or even multiple zope instances for one job board using zeo on its own server. The available parallelism is quite strong in Zope 2. Now here is the problem. Say one of you is both a Linux Admin and a Zope/Plone developer. Right now you would have to post your resume twice on two different job boards. If you changed your resume, you would have to change it in two different servers. Sometime soon, I hope that you will be able to just apply once. You would fill out the Zope skills question box, and the Linux Administrator skills question box, and the server will automagically create copies of your record on both job boards. If those are on separate servers, then that is a distributed migration of objects. When you return to edit your data and update your resume, that information needs to be propogated to the other job board on the other server as well. I hope that is a helpful use case for the Zope 3 developers. Of course maybe things are done totally differently in Zope 3 than in Zope 2. Here is another distributed use case, which I do admit is more speculative. Performance reasons might encourage me to have one server in the US, and one in India. Reportedly Google localization takes into account where the server is located. So if I want to compete globally in the US and India, I would want my Indian candidate objects to migrate to my Indian server, and my US candidate objects to migrate to my US server. I think I could do this with ZClasses. Can I do it with Zope 3? I hope that helps. Chris ___ Zope-Dev maillist - Zope-Dev@zope.org http://mail.zope.org/mailman/listinfo/zope-dev ** No cross posts or HTML encoding! ** (Related lists - http://mail.zope.org/mailman/listinfo/zope-announce http://mail.zope.org/mailman/listinfo/zope )
[Zope-dev] Re: In Defense of ZClasses
Jim Fulton asked Chris, have you tried ArchGenXML? I did do a project in Archetypes, in Plone. If I recall correctly, Archetypes requires CMF. And that is way too much code to add to my application. My workflow requirements are trivial. I think that Archetypes is quite brilliant at defining a schema. But it also includes the definition of the user interface in the data schema. I much prefer to use Formulator to define the forms, and Archetypes to define the data schema. Since I was not quite happy with Archetypes, I saw no point to move up to ArchGenXML. Actually what I have done in my internal code is to swipe the ideas from Archetypes, and automagically create the ZCatalogs, and ZClasses and Formulator forms. That way the forms can evolve away from the underlying classes. With these tools I can put up a new customized job board in very little time. And I do not have to carry around the whole infrastructure from CMF. So I would prefer to be working in Zope 3. But I am stuck with my legacy code, and pretty happy with it. I do some things which absolutely require the dynamicism of ZClasses. And when I get a reason to upgrade my zope server to a version that does not support ZClasses, then I will be motivated to do something about it. Chris ___ Zope-Dev maillist - Zope-Dev@zope.org http://mail.zope.org/mailman/listinfo/zope-dev ** No cross posts or HTML encoding! ** (Related lists - http://mail.zope.org/mailman/listinfo/zope-announce http://mail.zope.org/mailman/listinfo/zope )
[Zope-dev] Re: In Defense of ZClasses
Philipp von weitershausen wrote: >For these use cases it is not necessary to use a complex machinery like ZClasses. The objects we're talking >about here could be very very dull, to the point where we don't need something like a dynamically constructed >class. I appreciate all your comments. It helps me better understand what I am dong.In fact I do dynamically build my ZClasses on the fly on the production server. When I build a new job board, a whole bunch of stuff gets automagically done. I have code writing code. Then the users create specific instances of ZClasses. I love the idea that Zope 3 includes schema information. I love the idea of building Zope 3 schemas through the web. But Legacy code and data has a powerful gravitational pull. I have a working application, it is very little work to make the upgrades I need to make. It is a huge amount of work to migrate it to Zope 3. If I built a new application, it would be in Zope 3. For the existing stuff I am happy enough with Zope 2. It is so much better than PHP! In terms of motivations, I am happy enough with Zope 2.7* I do not really understand the new upgrades, or what the changes are, or what the benefits are. With all due respect, I would prefer stability in my platform rather than evolution. At some point I will come up with a limitation of Zope 2.7*, I will need to upgrade, ZClasses will not be working, and I will then do something. In the meantime my attention is much more focussed on how to manage my employees better using my application. Thanks for all the advice. I expect you will hear back from me when ZClasses are next discussed on this mailing list. Regards Chrsi ___ Zope-Dev maillist - Zope-Dev@zope.org http://mail.zope.org/mailman/listinfo/zope-dev ** No cross posts or HTML encoding! ** (Related lists - http://mail.zope.org/mailman/listinfo/zope-announce http://mail.zope.org/mailman/listinfo/zope )
[Zope-dev] ZClass Maintenance
Andreas Jung wrote: >ZClasses deserve a maintainer or a budget to fund a maintainer - otherwise they will remain what they are: a >3rd-class citizen of Zope. I have looked at the code, but I am not quite sure what it takes to maintain it. The core problem is that I do not understand how the underlying zope is changing, so I am not quite sure what is breaking. I guess this is not my highest priority right now. The other problem is that I do not really understand the reasons behind the original design of ZClasses. Jim Fulton has offered to navigate me through this process, but I have not yet taken him up on the offer. I am waiting until I am sufficiently motivated to do something about it before bothering him. It always seems that someone else is more motivated than I am, so I have not yet had to do anything. It would be very interesting to know how many hours of work it would take to bring ZClasses up to date on the current release of Zope 2. Then I could hand it off to my favorite offshore developer. Part of me is interested in doing it myself. Then I would understand the whole stack under ZClasses. Better yet, I should show up the Plone conference, where I should be able to find someone to answer my questions. >ZClasses don't get better from writing long postings. Ah, yes but I can write much faster than I can code. What am I doing on this list!?! All I have to do is to motivate someone else to do the work! Chris ___ Zope-Dev maillist - Zope-Dev@zope.org http://mail.zope.org/mailman/listinfo/zope-dev ** No cross posts or HTML encoding! ** (Related lists - http://mail.zope.org/mailman/listinfo/zope-announce http://mail.zope.org/mailman/listinfo/zope )
[Zope-dev] In Defense of ZClasses
At the risk of going down in history (and Google Searches) as the man who supports ZClasses, I think that someone deserves to come to their defense. I think that there is a different tool for every job. Sometimes I think Plone is the best solution, sometimes Zope 2 is the best solution. Sometimes Zope 3is the best solution, and sometimes ZClasses are the best solution. When are ZClasses the best solution? Frequently a ZClass is the fastest way to build an application. I can put up a simple list of types in ZClasses and DTML so incredibly quickly. Frankly developing a file system based python application is just way too much overhead for bringing up simple web applications quickly. In fact I have pushed ZClasses pretty far. If you are building an application, and you are a single developer, and you are comfortable with a tree based data model, then ZClasses is probably still your fastest development tool. I was recently told that ZClasses now work with Zope 2.8.* Maybe it was 2.9.* Frankly I am not smart enough to understand the recent evolution of the Zope framework. But I suspect that ZClasses can be made to work for a while more on top of the newest releases of Zope, and that is good enough for me. Someone will be motivated enough to make it work, and I will take advantage of the resulting open source code. I also think that there is a bright future for ZClasses, in the niches that I am interested in. Many years ago, I used to use versions to develop production and development code on a single server. I was in heaven. It was so easy. It was so productive. Then came zcatalogs and all of that broke. Pretty soon, I think someone, maybe even me, will be motivated enough to make ZClasses work with MVCC. Multivalued Concurrency Control, so that we can get rid of our development servers, and as a single developer just run a simple cheap development/production server. Life will be great. But I see a brighter future for ZClasses as well. The demand for my services is booming. I have way more business than I can handle. Someone recently did a search for a plone resume on Google, and I got 6 of the top placements. We have heard of search engine optimization, but this is just crazy good. Of course managing a staff of recruiters is the hardest part. So soon I will need to run multiple servers with data being shared among them. I will need a distributed schema, where people enter their resumes on one job board, and have them distributed to several other job boards. Zope 3 has a single server schema, but I have no idea if I will be able to expand it to a distributed Schema. With Zope 2, and ZClasses, it is very clear to me how I can build a distributed schema that moves classes around between servers. Most of the work is already done for me, another huge chunk, the schema part, I have done. So I think Zclasses serve my needs wonderfully. And I think that I can upgrade them with MVCC to make a single developer even more productive. And I think that I can build powerful distributed applications on top of them. That will be so much easier than trying to build and move python code on the file system and restarting dozens of servers. And it only takes a few of us using ZClasses, and making money off them to keep ZClasses quite alive. So I hope that this defense of ZClasses encourages you not to abandon them. Use whichever tool is best for your application, and trust that others will make the same wise decisions. Flame Shield is now up. I look forward to your replies. Regards Chris ___ Zope-Dev maillist - Zope-Dev@zope.org http://mail.zope.org/mailman/listinfo/zope-dev ** No cross posts or HTML encoding! ** (Related lists - http://mail.zope.org/mailman/listinfo/zope-announce http://mail.zope.org/mailman/listinfo/zope )
Re: [Zope-dev] ZClasses and Versioning
When I understand right, then Jim would not like to see ZClass'es directly in Zope 3 but rather something similar build on top of persistent modules. That makes sense to me. Make a through the web editor of Zope 3. But what do I do with my Zope 2 application? ZClasses break with Zope 2.8. Perhaps I could dig through the mailing list and find the details about why Zope 2.8 breaks ZClasses. Perhaps I could fix it, so that ZClasses could work on 2.8. I am not the only one who has a Zope 2 application, and is having difficulty following the migration path. Lots of people are using relational databases with Zope 2, and are not planning on moving forward. I do not see a path from here to there. As the line from the song goes. I think your plans don't include me. Regards Chris ___ Zope-Dev maillist - Zope-Dev@zope.org http://mail.zope.org/mailman/listinfo/zope-dev ** No cross posts or HTML encoding! ** (Related lists - http://mail.zope.org/mailman/listinfo/zope-announce http://mail.zope.org/mailman/listinfo/zope )
Re: [Zope-dev] ZClasses and Versioning
Dieter Maurer wrote: Christopher Lozinski wrote at 2006-7-10 19:28 -0700: I am interested in upgrading ZClasses and versioning. What does "upgrading" mean here? I do not quite know what upgrading means. I think that I have the same problem that many other users have. I am quite lost when it comes to Zope 3. I do not quite know what Zope 3 is. So I cannot quite figure out what to do with my Zope 2 application. There is the Zope 3 book, but reportedly that does not explain the architecture. I thought I saw a great schema on Z3Lab.org, but it had no text, and now I cannot find it. I could have attended the Zope 3 class, I had a great time at the Zope 2 class many years ago, but since I am not convinced I am migrating to Zope 3, I was not willing to spend the money. There is the Seattle Plone conference in a few months, maybe I can go there then and get enlightenment. In the meantime, I will just stick with my well understood tools. It is hard to volunteer without clear direction. Jim Fulton was very nice in offering to bring me up to speed, but I am careful not to lean on people, so that they are willing to help when I really need it. It would just take too much of his time to bring me up to speed. It is not just a few simple things that I need to understand. I really like through the web development. It is hard to make mistakes. I can image a through the web interface on Zope 3, but since I cannot quite envision Zope3, so I have a hard time figuring out how to build the through the web interface. Based on reading others postings , I think that I am not the only one lost in Zope space. I do not have a clear vision where the core developers are going. Personally I would love to see an effort called Zope classic, to just polish up zope 2. But I do not think that is going to happen. It would be a lot like Plone without the CMF. So I am putting my energies into upgrading my application. And just leaving it on zope 2.7* So I am still interested in helping, but I am not able to move forward. I am lost in zope space. And that is why I am not quite able to describe what it means to upgrade ZClasses and versionning. I know what I need to do, and I can do it really fast on Zope 2, but I am quite lost when it comes to Zope 3. And I am sure that I am not the only one with this problem. Regards Chris ___ Zope-Dev maillist - Zope-Dev@zope.org http://mail.zope.org/mailman/listinfo/zope-dev ** No cross posts or HTML encoding! ** (Related lists - http://mail.zope.org/mailman/listinfo/zope-announce http://mail.zope.org/mailman/listinfo/zope )
[Zope-dev] ZClasses and Versioning
I am interested in upgrading ZClasses and versioning. Would anyone like to supervise this work, or work with me? Regards Chris ___ Zope-Dev maillist - Zope-Dev@zope.org http://mail.zope.org/mailman/listinfo/zope-dev ** No cross posts or HTML encoding! ** (Related lists - http://mail.zope.org/mailman/listinfo/zope-announce http://mail.zope.org/mailman/listinfo/zope )
[Zope-dev] How do I get involved in volunteering?
I am interested in volunteering, but I am somewhat lost. And I say that even though I have been developing in Zope for years, and reading this email list avidly for a year. I think that I am going to go and buy and read the Zope 3 book. Beyond that I do not know what to do. The problem is that I have no idea what direction Zope 2 is taking. Although I have poked around on the web, I do not get Zope 3. The Zope 3 class seems a bit expensive, for those of us who are self-unemployed and who want to volunteer on Zope 2. I would love to read an architectural document, if it exists. If not maybe I could write it. It would start off by describing the different target markets and competing products. It would then define the requirements for those target markets, and it would finish by describing the architecture for zope 2 and 3 that meets those target markets. Of course that is the reverse of how it actually happened, but it sure makes a good story. I even think that in the process of creating such a high level view of this industry, I might come up with an additional market or two, and an additional architecture for Zope n to meet the requirements for that market. For example, I know that I like ZClasses and versionning, and they are not part of the plan. Then I could figure out how Zope development figures in with my product plans, and could figure out the best place to apply my energies. Maybe there is a internal group of zope 2 developers who have these conversations and who know which way things are going. Maybe no one knows, and as changes get delivered, they get approved. I am not even sure who is in charge of approving the cvs changes, and who is allowed to contribute to the cvs. Is there a list of the annointed high priests somewhere? Who annoints the approved code? Maybe there is a trade show where all the key players show up once a year. I think in the Plone world, at least there are the two key players, and then the board, so there is some visible structure. In the Zope world it is not so clear. So here are my questions. How does one get involved?Who is in charge? Who approves cvs submissions? What is the target architecture? What are the target markets? Regards Chris ___ Zope-Dev maillist - Zope-Dev@zope.org http://mail.zope.org/mailman/listinfo/zope-dev ** No cross posts or HTML encoding! ** (Related lists - http://mail.zope.org/mailman/listinfo/zope-announce http://mail.zope.org/mailman/listinfo/zope )
[Zope-dev] I agree that ZClasses should stay. I will volunteer
I am interested in maintaining them, documenting them, and upgrading them. I have been through the code a number of times, and if someone would spend 15 minutes explaining the high level design decisions, I could probably keep them up to date. Why do they have multiple properties on a property sheet, instead of having a list of independent data types? I am also very interested in versions, and maintaining versions. Versionning and ZClasses make the fastest single user development environment I have ever seen in my life. If your company can afford file based development, great, but some of us live on the income from our web sites, and really want to develop fast. And I object to the statement that "most people with solid backgrounds". I would prefer if you said that: "In certain circumstances ZClasses makes sense, in other circumstances, file based development makes better sense. In some cases Plone is better, in some cases Zope is better, in some cases Ruby on Rails is better, in some cases Zope3 is better". Different situations require different choices. Regards Chris ___ Zope-Dev maillist - Zope-Dev@zope.org http://mail.zope.org/mailman/listinfo/zope-dev ** No cross posts or HTML encoding! ** (Related lists - http://mail.zope.org/mailman/listinfo/zope-announce http://mail.zope.org/mailman/listinfo/zope )
[Zope-dev] ZClass Replacement Volunteer
I am considering volunteering to rewrite ZClasses. Who do I speak to? Chris ___ Zope-Dev maillist - Zope-Dev@zope.org http://mail.zope.org/mailman/listinfo/zope-dev ** No cross posts or HTML encoding! ** (Related lists - http://mail.zope.org/mailman/listinfo/zope-announce http://mail.zope.org/mailman/listinfo/zope )
