VACList-Digest Thursday, December 6, 2001 Issue 142
Today's Topics:
1. recommendation for tow vehicle
2. Re: Tow vehicle, 6 cyl and stick
3. Re: recommendation for tow vehicle
4. Re: Stick shift pullers
5. Re: recommendation for tow vehicle
6. Re: recommendation for tow vehicle
7. Re: recommendation for tow vehicle
----------------------------------------------------------------------
Message Number: 1
Date: Wed, 05 Dec 2001 20:16:47 -0600
From: harriswest <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
Subject: recommendation for tow vehicle
You'll want to Get a V8, automatic. This is not to say that the '86
wagoneer is the right vehicle for you, you may want something else
similarly equipped.
If you happen to run across a truck with a large-displacement STRAIGHT
six, say 300 cu in or so (4.9L), it may be ideal for you. These engines
were long-stroke, low-RPM, with very high torque and got somewhat better
mileage than the 8's but I think most mfrs stopped using them in the
mid-1980's. The V6's are *not* equivalent - they are short-stroke,
zippy, high HP engines that passenger car drivers love - but without the
pulling power of an old straight-six. Don't let a salesman tell you
otherwise...
--
Mike Harris
Austin, TX
> > Message Number: 8
> > Date: Tue, 4 Dec 2001 22:16:30 EST
> > From: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
> > Subject: Re:
> >
> > Hello! We're trying to get a used budget tow vehicle for our 24' Trade
> > Wind. We've been looking at the 1986 thru '92 Toyota Land Cruisers or
> > possibly the Jeep Cherokee Laredo 1990 or a Jeep Grand Wagoneer 1986. The
> > Wagoneer is 8 cyl but kind of worn and ugly with costly repairs ahead. All of
> > these are automatics.
> >
> > Should we consider a "stick" or is automatic the way to go? Is a 6 cylinder
> > too puny to handle about 4000lbs of trailer? The cherokee owners manual says
> > it can tow up to 5000 lbs. It has a class III hitch on it what ever that
> > means.
> >
> > Anyone got some advice on this before we buy the wrong rig?! Anyone got
> > something similar for sale? We're trying to stay under $5000 if possible.
> > Thanks, Stuart and Bonnie.
------------------------------
Message Number: 2
Date: Thu, 06 Dec 2001 06:24:25 +0000
From: "Frank M. 'Mitch' Hill" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
Subject: Re: Tow vehicle, 6 cyl and stick
Phil Renner wrote:
>Frank, that's interesting. I also have a Ford PU with a stick and I-6. That
>engine develops an amazing amount of torque, maybe that's why it was
>standard in Ford truck for sooo long.
>
>I've thought of putting a Class IV hitch on it to use as my "back up tow
>vehicle" or to use when I need to carry a lot of "stuff" in the back.
. .
Phil,
Yes, the amount of torque is amazing albeit at the cost of top end speed. In
third gear (of 4 ), the speedo hits 35 and you think a rev limiter kicked in,
the engine just quits accelerating. But the other side of the coin, coming
down
some of the hills in Maine, You take your foot of the gas and the engine has a
tremendous amount of hold back capability. In high gear, I rarely have to use
the brakes, maybe occasionally in small spurts.
A couple of facts about my F150, it is the longer wheelbase model, full 8
ft bed
and I have a Leer fiberglass cap which weighs several hundred pounds on it.
This
added weight and streamlining gives the truck good balance, it is not light
in the
tail end. This F150 also as shipped from the factory has the highest
weight (GVW)
capacity option for the F150, 3" wide rear springs as compared to the 2
1/2" or 2 3/4"
springs. As it is a 4X4, it has the twin I-beam front end and dual shocks
on each
side in the front plus sway bar in the rear.
I use a Reese weight distribution hitch with 1200 Lb trunion type torsion
bars plus
sway bars. The '64 Ambassador specified tongue weight is 420 Lbs. so the
1200 Lb
torsion bars allow for approximately a 800 lb load in the back of
truck. The truck GVW
is 7000 lbs, so this all works out to a good combination.
One thing about towing with a 6 cyl. truck, I do not tow long distances, I
do not think
the truck has ever been more than 300 miles from home. But hey, when you live
in New England, where else do you need to go ? Most of my trips are in the
200 mile range. Maine, NH and Vermont, occasionally western MA. The truck
does
this just great. As I approach retirement age, I am beginning to think
trips to Florida
are in the future. I think this truck would do it fine, however, after 16
years on Cape Cod,
the '86 is beginning to look a bit ragged around the edges. I don't want
to press my luck.
For long haul towing, especially in the mountains, I would take a big V8
any day. I do not
disagree with any comments on this list about using horsepower. As to
stick shift vs
automatic, I grew up in farm trucks and tractors, If one has a good touch
with stick and
clutch, (I do), I personally think stick shifts are less trouble and
maintenance. If you don't
abuse them or the clutch, they will last the life of the truck without
anything more than routine
maintenance. There are a lot of folks that are more comfortable with an
automatic, its a case
of personal preference. You should go with what you are most comfortable
with.
Folks, this not meant to sell you on towing with a 6 cyl engine or a stick
shift. This
type Ford inline 300 ci. 6 Cyl engine is the exception to the rule these
days. Its displacement
and low rpm torque curve does the work. This writing is purely to show
that you can tow quite
satisfactorily with the right 6 cyl. and/or stick shift. This more a
history of my 16 years
experience of towing with a 6 cyl. and stick shift than a sales pitch for
doing it. If it
didn't work for me, I would not have stuck with this truck for 16
years. However, If my
neighbor's nephew decides to sell his '89 F350 4X4, 351 Ci V8, 5 speed
stick and 8 ft bed
for $4500, I bet I know where its new home is going to be!!! Christmas is
coming!!!
TNX, Mitch Hill - WA1YKN
'64 Ambassador International...
------------------------------
Message Number: 3
Date: Thu, 6 Dec 2001 10:19:32 -0500
From: "Phil Renner" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
Subject: Re: recommendation for tow vehicle
Mike
Ford pick ups came with a 300ci (4.9L) standard equipment until at least
1994, maybe even 95 or 96.
Phil R.
63 Overlander
----- Original Message -----
From: "harriswest" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
To: "Multiple recipients of VACList" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
Sent: Wednesday, December 05, 2001 9:16 PM
Subject: [VAC] recommendation for tow vehicle
> You'll want to Get a V8, automatic. This is not to say that the '86
> wagoneer is the right vehicle for you, you may want something else
> similarly equipped.
>
> If you happen to run across a truck with a large-displacement STRAIGHT
> six, say 300 cu in or so (4.9L), it may be ideal for you. These engines
> were long-stroke, low-RPM, with very high torque and got somewhat better
> mileage than the 8's but I think most mfrs stopped using them in the
> mid-1980's. The V6's are *not* equivalent - they are short-stroke,
> zippy, high HP engines that passenger car drivers love - but without the
> pulling power of an old straight-six. Don't let a salesman tell you
> otherwise...
>
> --
> Mike Harris
> Austin, TX
------------------------------
Message Number: 4
Date: Thu, 06 Dec 2001 10:32:58 -0600
From: Dan Weeks <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
Subject: Re: Stick shift pullers
OK, Oliver--I generally tend to agree with your posts, but here's some of
your anticipated flack. I've towed lots with both sticks and autos. I agree
that modern autos, if and only if cooled with the biggest cooler you can
fit, equal the longevity of sticks, and tow well. Still, I prefer sticks,
esp. for towing. The key is a torquey engine, such as the Ford 300 6, a good
low gear ratio, and the knowledge and skill to know when and how to shift,
and how to mimimize clutch slippage and maximise clutch service. I've sold
vehicles with well over 200,000 miles on them, still with the original
clutch in good shape. Why do I prefer sticks? More torque to the road, more
engine braking and more control over the engine braking, better gas milage
(no, you don't see melted autos on the road, because the heat produced by
the slippage is dissipated by those big trans coolers we're always talking
about--and that's energy that a stick shift vehicle uses to get better
milage) and most of all, smoother downshifting at high engine speeds. To get
the last benefit, you have to know how to double-clutch, but the result is
no lurching upon downshifting, and virtually no wear on the clutch in the
process. In fact, if you're good at double-clutching, you can forgo using
the clutch altogether for shifting gear to gear, as semi drivers routinely
do. Also, by double-clutching, you can ALWAYS downshift, even at speeds
higher than an automatic will let you access a lower gear. In short, in a
properly equipped vehicle with skilled driver, sticks give you more control.
And if you add up all the costs of coolers, trans temp guages, transmission
flushes, etc., a carefully driven stick is cheaper to tow with in the long
run. Automatics, if properly cooled and equipped with a trans temp guage,
are fine, too, though. I just wouldn't dissuade someone from using a stick
if so inclined. But you ARE right that if you're not interested in learning
how to use a stick right, you can burn clutches up very fast, get terrible
performance, and be far better off with an auto.
Dan
75 Argosy
86 Caprice Wagon, 4 spd AOD
> From: VACList <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
> Reply-To: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
> Date: Wed, 5 Dec 2001 16:38:26 -0800
> To: Multiple recipients of VACList <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
> Subject: [VAC]
>
> The scariest situation with a stick is trying to down shift to
> get some engine braking on a downhill grade and not being able to engage the
> gear. This can never happen with an automatic. Also, the cost of
> maintaining an automatic over its useful life is a lot less than a stick and
> a new clutch.
------------------------------
Message Number: 5
Date: Thu, 6 Dec 2001 08:32:00 -0800
From: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Subject: Re: recommendation for tow vehicle
1996 was the last of the Ford (4.9L) straight sixes. I still use our
'96 F-150 w/5speed manual and 3.72 axle Eddie Bauer edition as my
"gentleman's truck" (you know, going to Home Depot, helping friends
move, going to the cafe for breakfast..).
It was at its towing limit with the 17 foot Caravel, and on High Sierra
passes 30mph and 2nd gear was the norm. The manual is rated at 3500#,
the Auto at 5000# due to the fact the manual trans and clutch is the
weak link. MPG is 17 hwy/15 street/12 towing. I wouldn't try to use
it for anything longer than 19 feet, even with an auto.
An ideal used tow vehicle for small to medium (24') trailers would be
the newer Tahoe/Jimmy?/Expedition/Navigator ilk with the V8/Automatic.
4WD is optional, but desirable if you live in snow country. Funny
thing is, the gas mileage is the same as the I6, and actually better
towing. It is even very close to our V6 Montero.
Later,
RJ
'65 Caravel
'57 Flying Cloud
'00 Mitsubishi Montero
> -----Original Message-----
> From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]]
> Sent: Thursday, December 06, 2001 7:20 AM
> To: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
> Cc: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
> Subject: [VAC] Re: recommendation for tow vehicle
>
> Mike
> Ford pick ups came with a 300ci (4.9L) standard equipment
> until at least
> 1994, maybe even 95 or 96.
> Phil R.
> 63 Overlander
--------
> > If you happen to run across a truck with a
> >large-displacement STRAIGHT
> > six, say 300 cu in or so (4.9L), it may be ideal for you.
> >These engines
> > were long-stroke, low-RPM, with very high torque and got
> >somewhat better
> > mileage than the 8's but I think most mfrs stopped using them in the
> > mid-1980's. The V6's are *not* equivalent - they are short-stroke,
> > zippy, high HP engines that passenger car drivers love -
> >but without the
> > pulling power of an old straight-six. Don't let a salesman tell you
> > otherwise...
------------------------------
Message Number: 6
Date: Thu, 6 Dec 2001 10:06:36 -0800
From: "Carol and Oliver Filippi" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
Subject: Re: recommendation for tow vehicle
Most all modern gasoline automobile engines are short stroke, relatively
high compression, high RPM engines. This design typically produces low
torque at low RPM so the engines get their power and torque in the higher
RPM ranges. In short, they are street versions of racing engine technology.
The goal being to get the most power from the least weight and good fuel
economy (which is done with computerized engine management systems). The
only way to improve the torque at low RPM on this engine design is to add
variable valve timing. Variable valve timing works remarkably well but is
somewhat complex and requires significant engine redesign - something the
bean counting automakers are reluctant to do. I will bet that most new
engine designs will incorporate computer controlled variable valve timing,
but I am not going to hold my breath waiting, as the current sluggish
economy is not condusive to heavy investment.
Ford, for example has developed a "Modular engine" such that the V4, V6, V8,
and yes, V10 is simply a longer version of the same basic components.
It really doesn't matter whether the engine is a straight or a vee or an "X"
or "W". The bore and stroke ratios are essentially the same. The only
reason for the V 6 (vs. the straight 6) these days is to make the engine
shorter to fit in the engine compartment - often sideways in the front wheel
drive configuration which provides more room in the passenger compartment.
Obviously, heavy duty truck engines are less concerned about weight and fuel
economy and more about low end torque and durability. Here and there, one
will find an older engine design which hasn't yet been retired which does
not fit the modern design formula. Hence the, "My old straight 6 had more
torque than ----"
Realistically, one has to chose from what is available. So, with a higher
RPM engine and its characteristics, the fix (or partial fix) is to go with
lower gearing in the rear end (higher numerical ratio). This will cause the
engine to run a little faster for any given road speed. This
results in the engine having more torque and power at a given road speed
delivered to the rear (or front) driving wheels.
Oliver Filippi
----- Original Message -----
From: "harriswest" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
To: "Multiple recipients of VACList" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
Sent: Wednesday, December 05, 2001 6:16 PM
Subject: [VAC] recommendation for tow vehicle
> You'll want to Get a V8, automatic. This is not to say that the '86
> wagoneer is the right vehicle for you, you may want something else
> similarly equipped.
>
> If you happen to run across a truck with a large-displacement STRAIGHT
> six, say 300 cu in or so (4.9L), it may be ideal for you. These engines
> were long-stroke, low-RPM, with very high torque and got somewhat better
> mileage than the 8's but I think most mfrs stopped using them in the
> mid-1980's. The V6's are *not* equivalent - they are short-stroke,
> zippy, high HP engines that passenger car drivers love - but without the
> pulling power of an old straight-six. Don't let a salesman tell you
> otherwise...
>
> --
> Mike Harris
> Austin, TX
>
------------------------------
Message Number: 7
Date: Thu, 06 Dec 2001 13:13:06 -0600
From: "Dr. Gerald N. Johnson, electrical engineer" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
Subject: Re: recommendation for tow vehicle
The problem with the "modern" light duty truck manual transmissions is
that they have a close set of ratios. Unlike the Warner T18 and T-19 or
New Process 435 families, first gear in the F-150 aluminum transmission
is only 3.92:1. It was 6.5 in the Warner and 7.5 in the NP 435. The
heavy duty 5 speeds may get as high as 4.5:1, still deficient for
towing. It takes an overall engine to wheel ratio on the order of 16:1
in first gear to be towing capable, though 20:1 is nicer. First gear in
the 1/2 ton GM transmission is better than Ford's half ton but not as
good as Ford's 3/4 ton transmission. Dodge ratios are similar to Ford
ratios.
The stock manual F-150 transmission with 3.08 axle gives 12:1 starting
ratio. The combination of torque converter, typically about 2:1,
automatic transmission first gear ratio of 3:1 and rear axle of 3:1
gives an overall ratio of 18:1 which is why the manufacturers rate
automatic transmission trucks for larger trailers. The T-19 with 6.5:1
and a 3.50 axle in my previous truck had an overall ratio of 22.75:1
which made it a very good puller with capacity equal that of the
automatics. There's a Ford towing workbook at dealers that would admit
that a few years ago, though it took a lot of arm twisting to get a
salesman to bring it out. They stock only automatics and don't want the
lower profit of special orders with fewer options.
My '98 F-150 with manual transmission and with a modified rear axle
having a 4.10 ratio has an overall first gear ratio of 16.072:1. Its
pretty good at towing. I've towed 7500 pounds of farm wagon and beans on
level ground. But I only rate it a 4700 pounds of trailer on the
highway. I do turn the engine faster than the factory intended, but it
seems to get slightly better gas mileage than it did with the 3.08. Not
enough to be sure its not weather changes. Maybe 16.7 mpg instead of 16
though it depends on how many Mustangs I leave behind at lights.
The change I made is like driving in straight high instead of overdrive.
Cost me $480 about two years ago, installed. I'm running the small 289
cubic inch Ford V-8. It definitely prefers high speeds, the horsepower
peak is at 4600 RPM and I never run it that fast. Its computer also
gives it a richer mixture above 2500 RPM which is noticeable.
It is theoretically possible to get more towing thrust by going to
smaller outside diameter tires, though that costs ground clearance and
truck axle loading capacity. Costs about the same as my gear swap. Going
to oversize tires is definitely not good for towing capacity.
The factory problem is that 99% of the trucks they sell carry no more
than the driver and lunch bucket or brief case and to meet the fleet
mileage criteria imposed by the US Government they have to make the
commonly used truck as fuel efficient as possible destroying its load
carrying capacity. Well maybe driver and passenger, and once a week, 47
pounds of groceries. This is counter to our towing needs.
Even with automatic transmission ratios, the trend for towing capacity
is to require us to use 3/4 ton trucks because the 1/2 ton trucks are
being groomed for two passenger plus lunch buckets load, not real work.
I still prefer the manual transmission and clutch. I learned to shift
gears at the age of 8 and I'm not worn out yet. Clutches at maybe $500
to have replaced are a lot cheaper than fixing automatic transmissions.
Though I know how to do clutches.
Gerald J.
--
Entire content copyright Dr. Gerald N. Johnson. Reproduction by
permission only.
------------------------------
End of VACList-Digest #142
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