[LUTE] Re: Where Arthur Ness?
I'm glad to hear that. By the way, has anyone heard from Peter Danner lately? On Jan 19, 2010, at 8:06 AM, Edward Martin wrote: Yes, I talked with Art last week. He is fine and well. ed At 05:26 PM 1/18/2010, Rainer wrote: Dear lute netters, has anybody heard from Arthur recently? Rainer adS To get on or off this list see list information at http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html Edward Martin 2817 East 2nd Street Duluth, Minnesota 55812 e-mail: e...@gamutstrings.com voice: (218) 728-1202 http://www.facebook.com/profile.php?id=1660298871ref=name http://www.myspace.com/edslute
[LUTE] Re: Hoppy Smith Film
__ Start searching NOW! [1]Search for properties that match your lifestyle! -- References 1. http://clk.atdmt.com/NMN/go/157631292/direct/01/ To get on or off this list see list information at http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html
[LUTE] Re: 1006842.pdf (application/pdf Object)
Dear Rainer, dear all, I have to ask everybody's pardon for the poor quality of the reproduction - I have digitalized a film, which itself had been copied from another film years ago, with my home equipment. No professional job though, :(, but as it may be that even such a copy is now a rarity I thought it fit to do this and not to wait until I might eventually be able to afford the services of pros. Unfortunately, the Cologne archive repeats the misleading dating of the book on its site. I will ask them to correct this after the second part of my article about it has appeared in the German lute society's Lauten-Info. And now for something completely different: There will be some people on this list who receive the Lauten-Info - in No 4/2009 something has gone awry between setting and correcting its contents and imposition. I was in quite a hurry to send 4/2009 on its way before Christmas, and did not look over it a last time before sending it to the printer. Imposition has resulted in breaking the connection between the columns containing the footnotes to Andreas Schlegel's text about the work on his forthcoming facsimile edition of french manuscripts from the hand B of the Rhétorique ee Dieux, and so some lines are missing from page 6, left column, footnote 3, where Andreas gives the URL to the english version of an article of his. The missing URL is: http://www.accordsnouveaux.ch/de/DownloadD/files/Rhetorique_Englisch.pdf I am sorry for this mistake and for any inconveniences it may have caused. All best, Joachim Rainer rads.bera_g...@t-online.de schrieb: Another facsimile - thanks to Joachim :) Rainer adS http://www.historischesarchivkoeln.de/documents/org/1006842.pdf To get on or off this list see list information at http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html -- Joachim Lüdtke, Lektorat Korrektorat Dr. Joachim Lüdtke Blumenstraße 20 D - 90762 Fürth Tel. +49-+911 / 976 45 20
[LUTE] Re: Thumb rest stroke
I've seen Paul O'Dette use repeated rest strokes in the bass, sometimes for fairly fast lines that I would take with p-i alternating (free) strokes. On the other hand, I've seen Robert Barto occasionally use rest strokes in the treble. There are an awful lot of paintings (especially, but not exclusively, baroque) in which the players are clearly using a rest stroke with the fingers a la classical guitar. In most of these the player is obviously tuning; in some, its not so clear. I know of no printed instructions, however. Chris To get on or off this list see list information at http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html
[LUTE] Re: Thumb rest stroke
I would imagine that if the thumb is playing repeated notes on lower courses (with thumb out technique) while a note is required on the chanterelle, that some contact with the second course could occur. Not a deep rest stroke like some flamenco guitarists do, but light contact resulting form the angle of the fingers. Mark -Original Message- From: chriswi...@yahoo.com To: lute@cs.dartmouth.edu; Daniel Winheld dwinh...@comcast.net Sent: Tue, Jan 19, 2010 8:10 am Subject: [LUTE] Re: Thumb rest stroke I've seen Paul O'Dette use repeated rest strokes in the bass, sometimes for fairly fast lines that I would take with p-i alternating (free) strokes. On the other hand, I've seen Robert Barto occasionally use rest strokes in the treble. There are an awful lot of paintings (especially, but not exclusively, baroque) in which the players are clearly using a rest stroke with the fingers a la classical guitar. In most of these the player is obviously tuning; in some, its not so clear. I know of no printed instructions, however. Chris To get on or off this list see list information at http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html --
[LUTE] Re: single second course on 10 course lutes
On Mon, 2010-01-18 at 14:54 +, Martin Shepherd wrote: Thanks Martin en daniel for the interesting reply! My feeling is that playing technique could have been a reason. What I understand from several players is that a double second on a baroque lute doesn't work very well, although perhaps a lot of hard work as Daniel mentions could help. By the way, was the conversion of a 10c to 11c only the addition of a bassrider or were there also changes made inside? taco Hi Taco, We have very little evidence for any of this, of course. But it seems extremely probable that the single 2nd came into being when people converted 10c lutes into 11c lutes, because it involved only the addition of a treble rider, a bass extension to the bridge, and an overhanging nut - no major rebuild of pegbox, no need to open the lute. There are plenty of 11c lutes with double 2nd in paintings and surviving lutes, perhaps they were new-built rather than conversions. Unusually, Thomas Mace seems to have used a double first as well as a double 2nd. Mary Burwell's author has it that the single 2nd is used because it is difficult to find two strings to agree, but I suspect that the real reason is the ease of conversion from 10c to 11c. So I think it is very unlikely that 10c lutes ever had a single 2nd, in fact one might ask whether or not they had a double 1st, since double firsts were common in 7 and 8c lutes, and used also by Dowland on 9c lutes (1610). I'm not convinced that playing technique has anything to do with it, except that to a modern player used to the single strings of the guitar (and then the usual single top string of the modern lute), double strings can require some adjustment of technique. To get on or off this list see list information at http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html
[LUTE] Re: Thumb rest stroke
Hi All, I have always regarded the rest stroke with the thumb as being a kind of fundamental, a starting point. It doesn't have to be agressive, it's just a way of making sure that both strings of a course are struck fully and at the same time. I was taught (and hence still teach) that the thumb is a long, heavy thing - it moves only from where it joins the hand, way back at the wrist (all other joints stay relaxed) - and falls towards to floor, which (with the lute being slightly angled back) means towards the next course. With multi-course lutes where the thumb only plays the bass notes, this is all there is - rest strokes all the way, giving a nice solid sound to those octaved basses and the psychological and physical security of always knowing where the thumb is. With earlier lutes and music, where the thumb is very active on the treble strings, rest strokes are rare, but the movement is much the same. Best wishes, Martin To get on or off this list see list information at http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html
[LUTE] Re: single second course on 10 course lutes
Thanks, Taco. Of course conversions sometimes involved other changes. The point about the 10-11c conversion is that it could be done with the minimum of changes. Perhaps we make too strong a distinction between renaissance and baroque lutes. My guess is (based on my own experience of many years ago) that when you retuned your 10c in D minor tuning you felt it suddenly sounded like a different instrument? The structure of the lute remains the same, but the tuning, and the different patterns of resonance it produces, transform it into a baroque lute! I felt I suddenly understood why they changed the tuning - to get a different fundamental sound. There is a parallel, of course, in the open chord tunings used by folk (and even rock) guitarists these days Best wishes, Martin Taco Walstra wrote: On Mon, 2010-01-18 at 14:54 +, Martin Shepherd wrote: Thanks Martin en daniel for the interesting reply! My feeling is that playing technique could have been a reason. What I understand from several players is that a double second on a baroque lute doesn't work very well, although perhaps a lot of hard work as Daniel mentions could help. By the way, was the conversion of a 10c to 11c only the addition of a bassrider or were there also changes made inside? taco Hi Taco, We have very little evidence for any of this, of course. But it seems extremely probable that the single 2nd came into being when people converted 10c lutes into 11c lutes, because it involved only the addition of a treble rider, a bass extension to the bridge, and an overhanging nut - no major rebuild of pegbox, no need to open the lute. There are plenty of 11c lutes with double 2nd in paintings and surviving lutes, perhaps they were new-built rather than conversions. Unusually, Thomas Mace seems to have used a double first as well as a double 2nd. Mary Burwell's author has it that the single 2nd is used because it is difficult to find two strings to agree, but I suspect that the real reason is the ease of conversion from 10c to 11c. So I think it is very unlikely that 10c lutes ever had a single 2nd, in fact one might ask whether or not they had a double 1st, since double firsts were common in 7 and 8c lutes, and used also by Dowland on 9c lutes (1610). I'm not convinced that playing technique has anything to do with it, except that to a modern player used to the single strings of the guitar (and then the usual single top string of the modern lute), double strings can require some adjustment of technique. To get on or off this list see list information at http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html
[LUTE] Re: Where Arthur Ness?
No, I have not heard from Peter Danner, but I do not know him well. ed At 03:34 AM 1/19/2010, G. D. Rossi wrote: I'm glad to hear that. By the way, has anyone heard from Peter Danner lately? On Jan 19, 2010, at 8:06 AM, Edward Martin wrote: Yes, I talked with Art last week. He is fine and well. ed At 05:26 PM 1/18/2010, Rainer wrote: Dear lute netters, has anybody heard from Arthur recently? Rainer adS To get on or off this list see list information at http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html Edward Martin 2817 East 2nd Street Duluth, Minnesota 55812 e-mail: e...@gamutstrings.com voice: (218) 728-1202 http://www.facebook.com/profile.php?id=1660298871ref=name http://www.myspace.com/edslute Edward Martin 2817 East 2nd Street Duluth, Minnesota 55812 e-mail: e...@gamutstrings.com voice: (218) 728-1202 http://www.facebook.com/profile.php?id=1660298871ref=name http://www.myspace.com/edslute
[LUTE] Re: What makes a lute stay in tune?
As has been alluded in many replies, lutes don't necessarily stay in tune when subject to variable environments. The question might be more appropriately phrased as What makes lutes going out of tune less problematic? One thing I have not seen mentioned is minimizing friction over the nut. This better balances the tension of the vibrating string with the tension stored behind the nut. Well-smoothed nut slots help. Winding strings so they come off the nut in as straight a line as possible also helps. Eugene -Original Message- From: lute-...@cs.dartmouth.edu [mailto:lute-...@cs.dartmouth.edu] On Behalf Of Herbert Ward Sent: Saturday, January 16, 2010 5:59 PM To: lute@cs.dartmouth.edu Subject: [LUTE] What makes a lute stay in tune? Ignoring for a moment the tuning instability of gut strings, what construction details make a lute stay in tune better? Is staying in tune a sign of a good lute? To get on or off this list see list information at http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html
[LUTE] Re: Thumb rest stroke
Chris All: The rest stroke for the thumb seems a logical means to both produce a strong bass and teach the thumb to keep track of diapasons, although there is no specific referral to this technique by name in any written historical source I've seen. The term 'rest stroke' seems to be a classical guitar convention useful in adapting to lute technique. The thing I find extremely puzzling in the 'awful lot of paintings' you mention is that, for late 16th and almost all 17th century examples, there is a nearly uniform depiction of a thumb-out technique, which is also described clearly in written sources. With one exception, nearly all our notable baroque lutenists of today use a thumb-under technique. This even applies to a lutenist I've seen in a recent video who is described as never having played renaissance lute. What gives? Why don't baroque lutenists today use what is an unquestionably obvious historical technique? I admit to not having paid much attention to this issue in the past. Sincerely puzzled, Ron Andrico www.mignarda.com Date: Tue, 19 Jan 2010 05:10:57 -0800 To: lute@cs.dartmouth.edu; dwinh...@comcast.net From: chriswi...@yahoo.com Subject: [LUTE] Re: Thumb rest stroke I've seen Paul O'Dette use repeated rest strokes in the bass, sometimes for fairly fast lines that I would take with p-i alternating (free) strokes. On the other hand, I've seen Robert Barto occasionally use rest strokes in the treble. There are an awful lot of paintings (especially, but not exclusively, baroque) in which the players are clearly using a rest stroke with the fingers a la classical guitar. In most of these the player is obviously tuning; in some, its not so clear. I know of no printed instructions, however. Chris To get on or off this list see list information at http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html __ Hotmail: Free, trusted and rich email service. [1]Get it now. -- References 1. http://clk.atdmt.com/GBL/go/196390708/direct/01/
[LUTE] Re: Thumb rest stroke
On Jan 19, 2010, at 8:09 AM, Ron Andrico wrote: With one exception, nearly all our notable baroque lutenists of today use a thumb-under technique. This even applies to a lutenist I've seen in a recent video who is described as never having played renaissance lute. What gives? Why don't baroque lutenists today use what is an unquestionably obvious historical technique? Because they begin with renaissance lute? -- To get on or off this list see list information at http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html
[LUTE] Re: Thumb rest stroke
Why don't baroque lutenists today use what is an unquestionably obvious historical technique? My idea about this is : they study how it should be done, then they do how it is easyer for them... (I'm speaking about pros...) For me, I'm not sure how it should be done, and I'm doing how I'm able to do... ;-))) I still have many question about what is an unquestionably obvious historical technique (certainties are often changing...) V. To get on or off this list see list information at http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html
[LUTE] Stickers and Decals
Hello from Sunny Singapore! I was feeling whimsical and wondering what stickers other lute players put on their lutes. The FRAGILE and THIS WAY UP ones I presume are reasonably common (and commonsense), but since so many of us are quirky folk, I'd imagine we have some pretty eyebrow-raising ones on our cases. I was thinking of putting a 'Giraffe Preservation Society' sticker on my archlute case even though I realise it's rather an obscure bit of humour. 'Biohazard' anyone? Anyone out there with funny ones? Edward C. Yong ky...@pacific.net.sg To get on or off this list see list information at http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html
[LUTE] Re: What makes a lute stay in tune?
A casual, oft-made observation: Gut seems to me to react more to humidity while synthetics and wound strings react more to temperature. Wire-wound organic multiilament strings (like silver-wound silk) are a double wammy. Eugene -Original Message- From: lute-...@cs.dartmouth.edu [mailto:lute-...@cs.dartmouth.edu] On Behalf Of Benjamin Narvey Sent: Monday, January 18, 2010 3:54 AM To: Franz Mechsner Cc: David van Ooijen; lute-cs.dartmouth.edu Subject: [LUTE] Re: What makes a lute stay in tune? Dear Franz, Both: the lighting produces incredible amounts of heat, as does the crowd. The crowd also produces lots of humidity. Both of these factors are normal last-minute changes to concert environments, but my lute was more than usually unstable yesterday. In fact, I wasn't supposed to be using it at all: it had just had surgery (re-drilled the bridge and changed the spacing, meaning the strings were all in different places) and all the strings were changed last week. In particular, the loaded strings lose 0.5 Kg of tension in the first month, so not only do they suffer the normal instability of gut, but in this case they were particularly unstable since they were not even finished stabilizing on the instrument yet. The lute I was expecting to use exploded in the lute maker's workshop before I could pick it upbut that *is* another story Best, B 2010/1/18 Franz Mechsner franz.mechs...@northumbria.ac.uk: Stupid question: How does lightning dis-balance the tuning? Is it heat? Or maybe the human warmth of the crowd instead? F __ Von: lute-...@cs.dartmouth.edu im Auftrag von David van Ooijen Gesendet: Mo 18.01.2010 09:40 An: lute-cs.dartmouth.edu Betreff: [LUTE] Re: What makes a lute stay in tune? On Mon, Jan 18, 2010 at 12:50 AM, Benjamin Narvey luthi...@gmail.com wrote: In answer to the question what makes a lute stay in tune? I respond: certainly *not* high-intensity lighting! Been there, done that. |-( David -- *** David van Ooijen davidvanooi...@gmail.com www.davidvanooijen.nl *** To get on or off this list see list information at [1]http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html -- References 1. http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html -- Dr Benjamin A. Narvey Institute of Musical Research School of Advanced Study University of London t +33 (0) 1 44 27 03 44 p/m +33 (0) 6 71 79 98 98 Site web/Website: www.luthiste.com
[LUTE] Re: Stickers and Decals
Before 9-11 happened, Terry Schumacker used to have yellow hazardous radiation sticker on his lute case. ed At 05:16 AM 1/19/2010, Edward C. Yong wrote: Hello from Sunny Singapore! I was feeling whimsical and wondering what stickers other lute players put on their lutes. The FRAGILE and THIS WAY UP ones I presume are reasonably common (and commonsense), but since so many of us are quirky folk, I'd imagine we have some pretty eyebrow-raising ones on our cases. I was thinking of putting a 'Giraffe Preservation Society' sticker on my archlute case even though I realise it's rather an obscure bit of humour. 'Biohazard' anyone? Anyone out there with funny ones? Edward C. Yong ky...@pacific.net.sg To get on or off this list see list information at http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html Edward Martin 2817 East 2nd Street Duluth, Minnesota 55812 e-mail: e...@gamutstrings.com voice: (218) 728-1202 http://www.facebook.com/profile.php?id=1660298871ref=name http://www.myspace.com/edslute
[LUTE] Re: Stickers and Decals
A sticker on the Violoncello case of a friend of mine reads: Play it? I can hardly carry it! All best, Joachim Edward Martin e...@gamutstrings.com schrieb: Before 9-11 happened, Terry Schumacker used to have yellow hazardous radiation sticker on his lute case. ed At 05:16 AM 1/19/2010, Edward C. Yong wrote: Hello from Sunny Singapore! I was feeling whimsical and wondering what stickers other lute players put on their lutes. The FRAGILE and THIS WAY UP ones I presume are reasonably common (and commonsense), but since so many of us are quirky folk, I'd imagine we have some pretty eyebrow-raising ones on our cases. I was thinking of putting a 'Giraffe Preservation Society' sticker on my archlute case even though I realise it's rather an obscure bit of humour. 'Biohazard' anyone? Anyone out there with funny ones? Edward C. Yong ky...@pacific.net.sg To get on or off this list see list information at http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html Edward Martin 2817 East 2nd Street Duluth, Minnesota 55812 e-mail: e...@gamutstrings.com voice: (218) 728-1202 http://www.facebook.com/profile.php?id=1660298871ref=name http://www.myspace.com/edslute -- Joachim Lüdtke, Lektorat Korrektorat Dr. Joachim Lüdtke Blumenstraße 20 D - 90762 Fürth Tel. +49-+911 / 976 45 20
[LUTE] Re: Stickers and Decals
Phillippa Dunne had a Human Remains sign, on hers. RT - Original Message - From: Edward Martin e...@gamutstrings.com To: Edward C. Yong ky...@pacific.net.sg; Lute List lute@cs.dartmouth.edu Sent: Tuesday, January 19, 2010 12:16 PM Subject: [LUTE] Re: Stickers and Decals Before 9-11 happened, Terry Schumacker used to have yellow hazardous radiation sticker on his lute case. ed At 05:16 AM 1/19/2010, Edward C. Yong wrote: Hello from Sunny Singapore! I was feeling whimsical and wondering what stickers other lute players put on their lutes. The FRAGILE and THIS WAY UP ones I presume are reasonably common (and commonsense), but since so many of us are quirky folk, I'd imagine we have some pretty eyebrow-raising ones on our cases. I was thinking of putting a 'Giraffe Preservation Society' sticker on my archlute case even though I realise it's rather an obscure bit of humour. 'Biohazard' anyone? Anyone out there with funny ones? Edward C. Yong ky...@pacific.net.sg To get on or off this list see list information at http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html Edward Martin 2817 East 2nd Street Duluth, Minnesota 55812 e-mail: e...@gamutstrings.com voice: (218) 728-1202 http://www.facebook.com/profile.php?id=1660298871ref=name http://www.myspace.com/edslute
[LUTE] Re: Stickers and Decals
My old 8 course had two big, loud, bright yellow MYSTERY SPOT stickers on its case. The Mystery Spot is a small area near Santa Cruz, Ca. with gravitational/magnetic anomalies that turned into a tacky (but still scientifically interesting) tourist location. I have never taken anyone else's lute with identical black case by accident, or had mine taken. -Dan R.I.P. Phillippa Dunne had a Human Remains sign, on hers. RT -- To get on or off this list see list information at http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html
[LUTE] Re: Stickers and Decals
One of my 13c's has NYCTaxi Passenger Rights, Rates and other TLC stickers on it. The other has a Happiness is under my kilt. sign. RT - Original Message - From: Daniel Winheld dwinh...@comcast.net To: lute@cs.dartmouth.edu Sent: Tuesday, January 19, 2010 12:37 PM Subject: [LUTE] Re: Stickers and Decals My old 8 course had two big, loud, bright yellow MYSTERY SPOT stickers on its case. The Mystery Spot is a small area near Santa Cruz, Ca. with gravitational/magnetic anomalies that turned into a tacky (but still scientifically interesting) tourist location. I have never taken anyone else's lute with identical black case by accident, or had mine taken. -Dan R.I.P. Phillippa Dunne had a Human Remains sign, on hers. RT -- To get on or off this list see list information at http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html
[LUTE] Re: Thumb rest stroke
I am also a bit puzzled by an unquestionably obvious historical technique. RT - Original Message - From: Sauvage Valéry sauvag...@orange.fr To: lute@cs.dartmouth.edu Sent: Tuesday, January 19, 2010 12:11 PM Subject: [LUTE] Re: Thumb rest stroke Why don't baroque lutenists today use what is an unquestionably obvious historical technique? My idea about this is : they study how it should be done, then they do how it is easyer for them... (I'm speaking about pros...) For me, I'm not sure how it should be done, and I'm doing how I'm able to do... ;-))) I still have many question about what is an unquestionably obvious historical technique (certainties are often changing...) V. To get on or off this list see list information at http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html
[LUTE] Re: Thumb rest stroke
Thanks, Martin - this makes sense to me. Ned -- To get on or off this list see list information at http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html
[LUTE] Re: What makes a lute stay in tune?
Absolutely, Eugene. While my nylgut or nylon strings remain quite stable day to day, I find myself having to retune the wound strings daily. Mostly downward (they get sharp). So obviously they are binding at the nut. I really must take them off and see if I can file the nut grooves smoother and/or somewhat larger. Ned -- To get on or off this list see list information at http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html
[LUTE] Re: Thumb rest stroke
The thing I find extremely puzzling in the 'awful lot of paintings' you mention is that, for late 16th and almost all 17th century examples, there is a nearly uniform depiction of a thumb-out technique, which is also described clearly in written sources. With one exception, nearly all our notable baroque lutenists of today use a thumb-under technique. This even applies to a lutenist I've seen in a recent video who is described as never having played renaissance lute. What gives? Why don't baroque lutenists today use what is an unquestionably obvious historical technique? Thumb under/in was the best way to make a clean break from unworkable classical guitar technique in the early days of the lute revival at the point when lutes built on real proper historic principles made such a break a necessity; not merely a stylistic indulgence. At the same time, the harsh, but twangy sound quality of the strings available- particularly the thin, overspun basses- could only be adequately tamed by rounder, softer strokes resulting from the thumb-in hand position, also played closer to the rose than the bridge. One anachronism cancelling out the other, as it were. Speaking as a lifetime player who made that exact transition, back in the 1970's, by practicing it fanatically five hours or so daily, I can tell you that one does not give up or radically change such a hard won goal lightly. (No historical record of any of the original players making the difficult switch from thumb under to thumb out, and then going back to the prior technique) But, when I obtained a 10 course lute some years later, I was indeed bothered by the injunctions of Nicholas Vallet- whose music I had fallen in love with- Stobaus, etc., and the overwhelming iconographical evidence. I slowly began exploring historic thumb out/over, nothing at all like classical guitar. It was only in 2004 that I felt comfortable enough to use historic thumb-out in performance, but having given up music as a profession I had more time to experiment and fewer high pressure gigs requiring unconsciously rock-solid technical security. Also, gut and more gut-like bass strings made such a refinement sensible and rewarding. Not that my videos are anything to write home about, but you can see and maybe hear the differences between my RH techniques on the 6 course lute vs. the vihuela. They will be more obvious if I ever record on the archlute or d-minor Baroque lute. http://www.vimeo.com/user814372/videos Apologies for some harsh sounds, much work still to do if I live long enough. Dan -- To get on or off this list see list information at http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html
[LUTE] Re: Thumb rest stroke
Well, I have wondered too, if - as I've read - Dowland evolved from thumb under to thumb over as he played lutes with more courses, why thumb over is not more commonly used. But then, I definitely hear and feel a significant difference between the two approaches when I manage to play a passage using each. My preference on my instrument is thumb under, when I'm able to manage it (still stuggling to be consistent with it. It looks so easy and natural when I see players proficient with it, and yet my hand is stubbornly resistant!). Ned -- To get on or off this list see list information at http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html
[LUTE] Re: Stickers and Decals
You know, the Mystery Spot[s] are actually architecturally engineered optical illusions. I know of another two in my Great Lakes-region stomping grounds: the UP of Michigan and the Wisconsin Dells. I currently have a MandolinCafe.com and a St. Croix fishing rods stickers. I have gone through phases where my cases sport large sticker collections, some form the past including a Quaker Steak and Lube atomic wings survivor sticker and a once-sizable collection of banana stickers. Best, Eugene -Original Message- From: lute-...@cs.dartmouth.edu [mailto:lute-...@cs.dartmouth.edu] On Behalf Of Daniel Winheld Sent: Tuesday, January 19, 2010 12:38 PM To: lute@cs.dartmouth.edu Subject: [LUTE] Re: Stickers and Decals My old 8 course had two big, loud, bright yellow MYSTERY SPOT stickers on its case. The Mystery Spot is a small area near Santa Cruz, Ca. with gravitational/magnetic anomalies that turned into a tacky (but still scientifically interesting) tourist location. I have never taken anyone else's lute with identical black case by accident, or had mine taken. -Dan R.I.P. Phillippa Dunne had a Human Remains sign, on hers. RT -- To get on or off this list see list information at http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html
[LUTE] Re: Thumb rest stroke
Ron, Good points. I'm working on exactly this point. The main issue with true thumb-out is getting a decent and - far more importantly - _consistent_ sound out of the treble strings. There clearly was a marked aural difference between the too positions that the baroquenists admired. How else to explain the Stammbuch of Stobaeus when he contrasts the pure, sharp, bright tone of thumb-out versus the rotten and muffled sound of old thumb-under. I think most modern baroque lutenists attempt to re-create the thumb-under sound. They therefore have an anachronistic conception of tone. I can't say that I agree with the rotten and muffled part, but for me, there is nothing saying that a brighter sound can't be expressive. In my experiments, I've found that it is quite possible to have a wide range of timbral, tonal and dynamic shadings. The lute just responds differently with the fingers in this position. Still a work in progress. The secondary issue is that the true baroque lute technique is very, very close to modern classical guitar technique. I think this strikes too close to home for many lutenists for whom thumb-under is part of the (modern) identity of what it means to be a real lute player, as distinct from wannabe classical guitarists who thrash around on a pear-shaped instrument at ren. fests, etc. Chris --- On Tue, 1/19/10, Ron Andrico praelu...@hotmail.com wrote: From: Ron Andrico praelu...@hotmail.com Subject: [LUTE] Re: Thumb rest stroke To: chriswi...@yahoo.com, lute@cs.dartmouth.edu, dwinh...@comcast.net Date: Tuesday, January 19, 2010, 11:09 AM Chris All: The rest stroke for the thumb seems a logical means to both produce a strong bass and teach the thumb to keep track of diapasons, although there is no specific referral to this technique by name in any written historical source I've seen. The term 'rest stroke' seems to be a classical guitar convention useful in adapting to lute technique. The thing I find extremely puzzling in the 'awful lot of paintings' you mention is that, for late 16th and almost all 17th century examples, there is a nearly uniform depiction of a thumb-out technique, which is also described clearly in written sources. With one exception, nearly all our notable baroque lutenists of today use a thumb-under technique. This even applies to a lutenist I've seen in a recent video who is described as never having played renaissance lute. What gives? Why don't baroque lutenists today use what is an unquestionably obvious historical technique? I admit to not having paid much attention to this issue in the past. Sincerely puzzled, Ron Andrico www.mignarda.com Date: Tue, 19 Jan 2010 05:10:57 -0800 To: lute@cs.dartmouth.edu; dwinh...@comcast.net From: chriswi...@yahoo.com Subject: [LUTE] Re: Thumb rest stroke I've seen Paul O'Dette use repeated rest strokes in the bass, sometimes for fairly fast lines that I would take with p-i alternating (free) strokes. On the other hand, I've seen Robert Barto occasionally use rest strokes in the treble. There are an awful lot of paintings (especially, but not exclusively, baroque) in which the players are clearly using a rest stroke with the fingers a la classical guitar. In most of these the player is obviously tuning; in some, its not so clear. I know of no printed instructions, however. Chris To get on or off this list see list information at http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html __ Hotmail: Free, trusted and rich email service. [1]Get it now. -- References 1. http://clk.atdmt.com/GBL/go/196390708/direct/01/ To get on or off this list see list information at http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html
[LUTE] Re: Stickers and Decals
My lute cases are distinguished by the ever present Warning: Beware of the Lute Player stickers. A women had an ebay store that made them for the longest time but it's now defunct. Danny On Tue, Jan 19, 2010 at 2:26 PM, Eugene C. Braig IV [1]brai...@osu.edu wrote: You know, the Mystery Spot[s] are actually architecturally engineered optical illusions. I know of another two in my Great Lakes-region stomping grounds: the UP of Michigan and the Wisconsin Dells. I currently have a MandolinCafe.com and a St. Croix fishing rods stickers. I have gone through phases where my cases sport large sticker collections, some form the past including a Quaker Steak and Lube atomic wings survivor sticker and a once-sizable collection of banana stickers. Best, Eugene -Original Message- From: [2]lute-...@cs.dartmouth.edu [mailto:[3]lute-...@cs.dartmouth.edu] On Behalf Of Daniel Winheld Sent: Tuesday, January 19, 2010 12:38 PM To: [4]l...@cs.dartmouth.edu Subject: [LUTE] Re: Stickers and Decals My old 8 course had two big, loud, bright yellow MYSTERY SPOT stickers on its case. The Mystery Spot is a small area near Santa Cruz, Ca. with gravitational/magnetic anomalies that turned into a tacky (but still scientifically interesting) tourist location. I have never taken anyone else's lute with identical black case by accident, or had mine taken. -Dan R.I.P. Phillippa Dunne had a Human Remains sign, on hers. RT -- To get on or off this list see list information at [5]http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html -- References 1. mailto:brai...@osu.edu 2. mailto:lute-...@cs.dartmouth.edu 3. mailto:lute-...@cs.dartmouth.edu 4. mailto:lute@cs.dartmouth.edu 5. http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html
[LUTE] Re: Thumb rest stroke
I have been dealing with this issue regularly since making the baroque lute my primary solo instrument. For me, when my hand is rotated more horizontally into thumb under position, I have a much larger target zone on the pads of my index fingers from which to get what I at least consider to be good tone. That Weiss himself may have played with a tone that today I would consider brittle and harsh is possible, but ultimately I've got to be content with my own sound and with the variables of string composition, tension and playing location, there are just too many variables for this amateur to contend with. Several teachers have suggested making the transition (Stone, North, Stubbs). Not sure about your nearly all our notable baroque luteniststs play thumb under comment Ron. Barto started thumb in but now plays thumb out, as do Richard Stone and Nigel North. I have seen Liddell and O'Dette play thumb under on baroque lute, which at least helps justify my own style to me. Danny On Tue, Jan 19, 2010 at 2:27 PM, [1]chriswi...@yahoo.com wrote: Ron, Good points. I'm working on exactly this point. The main issue with true thumb-out is getting a decent and - far more importantly - _consistent_ sound out of the treble strings. There clearly was a marked aural difference between the too positions that the baroquenists admired. How else to explain the Stammbuch of Stobaeus when he contrasts the pure, sharp, bright tone of thumb-out versus the rotten and muffled sound of old thumb-under. I think most modern baroque lutenists attempt to re-create the thumb-under sound. They therefore have an anachronistic conception of tone. I can't say that I agree with the rotten and muffled part, but for me, there is nothing saying that a brighter sound can't be expressive. In my experiments, I've found that it is quite possible to have a wide range of timbral, tonal and dynamic shadings. The lute just responds differently with the fingers in this position. Still a work in progress. The secondary issue is that the true baroque lute technique is very, very close to modern classical guitar technique. I think this strikes too close to home for many lutenists for whom thumb-under is part of the (modern) identity of what it means to be a real lute player, as distinct from wannabe classical guitarists who thrash around on a pear-shaped instrument at ren. fests, etc. Chris --- On Tue, 1/19/10, Ron Andrico [2]praelu...@hotmail.com wrote: From: Ron Andrico [3]praelu...@hotmail.com Subject: [LUTE] Re: Thumb rest stroke To: [4]chriswi...@yahoo.com, [5]l...@cs.dartmouth.edu, [6]dwinh...@comcast.net Date: Tuesday, January 19, 2010, 11:09 AM Chris All: The rest stroke for the thumb seems a logical means to both produce a strong bass and teach the thumb to keep track of diapasons, although there is no specific referral to this technique by name in any written historical source I've seen. The term 'rest stroke' seems to be a classical guitar convention useful in adapting to lute technique. The thing I find extremely puzzling in the 'awful lot of paintings' you mention is that, for late 16th and almost all 17th century examples, there is a nearly uniform depiction of a thumb-out technique, which is also described clearly in written sources. With one exception, nearly all our notable baroque lutenists of today use a thumb-under technique. This even applies to a lutenist I've seen in a recent video who is described as never having played renaissance lute. What gives? Why don't baroque lutenists today use what is an unquestionably obvious historical technique? I admit to not having paid much attention to this issue in the past. Sincerely puzzled, Ron Andrico [7]www.mignarda.com Date: Tue, 19 Jan 2010 05:10:57 -0800 To: [8]l...@cs.dartmouth.edu; [9]dwinh...@comcast.net From: [10]chriswi...@yahoo.com Subject: [LUTE] Re: Thumb rest stroke I've seen Paul O'Dette use repeated rest strokes in the bass, sometimes for fairly fast lines that I would take with p-i alternating (free) strokes. On the other hand, I've seen Robert Barto occasionally use rest strokes in the treble. There are an awful lot of paintings (especially, but not exclusively, baroque) in which the players are clearly using a rest stroke with the fingers a la classical guitar. In most of these the player is obviously tuning; in some, its not so clear. I know of no printed instructions, however.
[LUTE] Re: Thumb rest stroke
When I play a 13c. I cannot access the low basses with any reliability without playing with my fingers practically parallel to the higher register strings. I can play closer to the bridge, or not for tone difference, but rotating my hand to more of a thumb open is not an option. I do use rest strokes with the thumb in the basses for accuracy of placement of the following note. r -Original Message- From: lute-...@cs.dartmouth.edu [mailto:lute-...@cs.dartmouth.edu] On Behalf Of chriswi...@yahoo.com Sent: Tuesday, January 19, 2010 2:28 PM To: lute@cs.dartmouth.edu; dwinh...@comcast.net; Ron Andrico Subject: [LUTE] Re: Thumb rest stroke Ron, Good points. I'm working on exactly this point. The main issue with true thumb-out is getting a decent and - far more importantly - _consistent_ sound out of the treble strings. There clearly was a marked aural difference between the too positions that the baroquenists admired. How else to explain the Stammbuch of Stobaeus when he contrasts the pure, sharp, bright tone of thumb-out versus the rotten and muffled sound of old thumb-under. I think most modern baroque lutenists attempt to re-create the thumb-under sound. They therefore have an anachronistic conception of tone. I can't say that I agree with the rotten and muffled part, but for me, there is nothing saying that a brighter sound can't be expressive. In my experiments, I've found that it is quite possible to have a wide range of timbral, tonal and dynamic shadings. The lute just responds differently with the fingers in this position. Still a work in progress. The secondary issue is that the true baroque lute technique is very, very close to modern classical guitar technique. I think this strikes too close to home for many lutenists for whom thumb-under is part of the (modern) identity of what it means to be a real lute player, as distinct from wannabe classical guitarists who thrash around on a pear-shaped instrument at ren. fests, etc. Chris --- On Tue, 1/19/10, Ron Andrico praelu...@hotmail.com wrote: From: Ron Andrico praelu...@hotmail.com Subject: [LUTE] Re: Thumb rest stroke To: chriswi...@yahoo.com, lute@cs.dartmouth.edu, dwinh...@comcast.net Date: Tuesday, January 19, 2010, 11:09 AM Chris All: The rest stroke for the thumb seems a logical means to both produce a strong bass and teach the thumb to keep track of diapasons, although there is no specific referral to this technique by name in any written historical source I've seen. The term 'rest stroke' seems to be a classical guitar convention useful in adapting to lute technique. The thing I find extremely puzzling in the 'awful lot of paintings' you mention is that, for late 16th and almost all 17th century examples, there is a nearly uniform depiction of a thumb-out technique, which is also described clearly in written sources. With one exception, nearly all our notable baroque lutenists of today use a thumb-under technique. This even applies to a lutenist I've seen in a recent video who is described as never having played renaissance lute. What gives? Why don't baroque lutenists today use what is an unquestionably obvious historical technique? I admit to not having paid much attention to this issue in the past. Sincerely puzzled, Ron Andrico www.mignarda.com Date: Tue, 19 Jan 2010 05:10:57 -0800 To: lute@cs.dartmouth.edu; dwinh...@comcast.net From: chriswi...@yahoo.com Subject: [LUTE] Re: Thumb rest stroke I've seen Paul O'Dette use repeated rest strokes in the bass, sometimes for fairly fast lines that I would take with p-i alternating (free) strokes. On the other hand, I've seen Robert Barto occasionally use rest strokes in the treble. There are an awful lot of paintings (especially, but not exclusively, baroque) in which the players are clearly using a rest stroke with the fingers a la classical guitar. In most of these the player is obviously tuning; in some, its not so clear. I know of no printed instructions, however. Chris To get on or off this list see list information at http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html __ Hotmail: Free, trusted and rich email service. [1]Get it now. -- References 1. http://clk.atdmt.com/GBL/go/196390708/direct/01/ To get on or off this list see list information at http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html
[LUTE] Re: single second course on 10 course lutes
Martin said: There is a parallel, of course, in the open chord tunings used by folk (and even rock) guitarists these days ...and Hawaiian and blues guitarists in the (19)20's and 30's, and Mrs. Pratten et al. in the 1870's... People are always messing around, looking for a new sound, or, more likely I suspect, easier fingerings in their preferred keys or for new musical styles. Didn't the early baroque lute books claim that the new tunings made the lute an easier instrument? Best, and keep playing, Chris. Martin Shepherd mar...@luteshop.co.uk 1/19/2010 10:02 AM Thanks, Taco. Of course conversions sometimes involved other changes. The point about the 10-11c conversion is that it could be done with the minimum of changes. Perhaps we make too strong a distinction between renaissance and baroque lutes. My guess is (based on my own experience of many years ago) that when you retuned your 10c in D minor tuning you felt it suddenly sounded like a different instrument? The structure of the lute remains the same, but the tuning, and the different patterns of resonance it produces, transform it into a baroque lute! I felt I suddenly understood why they changed the tuning - to get a different fundamental sound. There is a parallel, of course, in the open chord tunings used by folk (and even rock) guitarists these days Best wishes, Martin Taco Walstra wrote: On Mon, 2010-01-18 at 14:54 +, Martin Shepherd wrote: Thanks Martin en daniel for the interesting reply! My feeling is that playing technique could have been a reason. What I understand from several players is that a double second on a baroque lute doesn't work very well, although perhaps a lot of hard work as Daniel mentions could help. By the way, was the conversion of a 10c to 11c only the addition of a bassrider or were there also changes made inside? taco Hi Taco, We have very little evidence for any of this, of course. But it seems extremely probable that the single 2nd came into being when people converted 10c lutes into 11c lutes, because it involved only the addition of a treble rider, a bass extension to the bridge, and an overhanging nut - no major rebuild of pegbox, no need to open the lute. There are plenty of 11c lutes with double 2nd in paintings and surviving lutes, perhaps they were new-built rather than conversions. Unusually, Thomas Mace seems to have used a double first as well as a double 2nd. Mary Burwell's author has it that the single 2nd is used because it is difficult to find two strings to agree, but I suspect that the real reason is the ease of conversion from 10c to 11c. So I think it is very unlikely that 10c lutes ever had a single 2nd, in fact one might ask whether or not they had a double 1st, since double firsts were common in 7 and 8c lutes, and used also by Dowland on 9c lutes (1610). I'm not convinced that playing technique has anything to do with it, except that to a modern player used to the single strings of the guitar (and then the usual single top string of the modern lute), double strings can require some adjustment of technique. To get on or off this list see list information at [1]http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html -- References 1. http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute
[LUTE] Re: Thumb rest stroke
Hello Dan, I enjoyed your videos and am impressed by your seeming equal fluency with both right hand techniques. The sound of the viheuela and lute are quite different, so I wouldn't say I could make a judgement about differences in the sound of both techniques. But, as I say, when I try both on my instrument, I hear distinct differences. Perhaps if I were to put in 5 hours per day I would more quickly achieve a thumb under technique! Congratulations on such dedication. Ned -- To get on or off this list see list information at http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html
[LUTE] Re: Thumb rest stroke
It is very similar to a rest stroke, and yet very different. When using the two fingered graze, the fingers can either rest or brush against each other. Also, you can create the motion of the stroke without the ending, which can produce the same or similar sound--after the finger has left the string the sound is not affected. To my ear, most rest strokes sound neither renaissance nor baroque, and so I think the main thing to avoid is modern articulation. Of course that is subjective. dt At 05:32 PM 1/18/2010, you wrote: I don't see how that would be possible, there is nothing to rest against except the inside of the hand? - Original Message - From: terli...@aol.com To: lute@cs.dartmouth.edu Sent: Monday, January 18, 2010 6:34 PM Subject: [LUTE] Re: Thumb rest stroke Do any early sources describe something that could be interpreted as a rest stroke being used on the chanterelle? -Original Message- From: David R d_lu...@comcast.net To: nedma...@aol.com Cc: lute@cs.dartmouth.edu Sent: Mon, Jan 18, 2010 6:26 pm Subject: [LUTE] Re: Thumb rest stroke I think it came into use with the Venetian lutenists from 1500 or so. Obviously you can't use rest strokes when you're playing thumb-index diminutions, and you don't want to be damping the string directly below your thumb if it's supposed to be sounding, but as a general rule I think that wherever possible rest-stroke was the default way to strike a bass string with your thumb right from the beginning. Nobody knows what Dowland did. Is it so important? DR On Jan 18, 2010, at 4:31 PM, nedma...@aol.com wrote: I'm curious as to when it is thought the rest stroke for the thumb came into common use. Was it commonly used on the Renaissance lute? Do we think Dowland used it early, or late, or at all in his career? Thanks, Ned -- To get on or off this list see list information at http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html -- __ Information from ESET NOD32 Antivirus, version of virus signature database 4784 (20100118) __ The message was checked by ESET NOD32 Antivirus. http://www.eset.com __ Information from ESET NOD32 Antivirus, version of virus signature database 4784 (20100118) __ The message was checked by ESET NOD32 Antivirus. http://www.eset.com
[LUTE] Re: Thumb rest stroke
I've usually interpreted rest like finger position when tuning as damping, although quilling pairs would certainly be an option if you count beats when tuning. dt At 05:10 AM 1/19/2010, you wrote: I've seen Paul O'Dette use repeated rest strokes in the bass, sometimes for fairly fast lines that I would take with p-i alternating (free) strokes. On the other hand, I've seen Robert Barto occasionally use rest strokes in the treble. There are an awful lot of paintings (especially, but not exclusively, baroque) in which the players are clearly using a rest stroke with the fingers a la classical guitar. In most of these the player is obviously tuning; in some, its not so clear. I know of no printed instructions, however. Chris To get on or off this list see list information at http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html
[LUTE] Re: Thumb rest stroke
Danny --- On Tue, 1/19/10, Daniel Shoskes kidneykut...@gmail.com wrote: Not sure about your nearly all our notable baroque luteniststs play thumb under comment Ron. Barto started thumb in but now plays thumb out, as do Richard Stone and Nigel North. I have seen Liddell and O'Dette play thumb under on baroque lute, which at least helps justify my own style to me. Not really. I haven't seen any pros play really thumb out. Most approach the strings with the wrist quite flat and straight as if shaking hands. They simply bring the forearm further up on the body so that the thumb is in front of the fingers. This is very similar to what a modern folk-fingerstyle guitarist does. The paintings and descriptions are quite clear that something else was done. We get things like hold the thumb out with all the force you can, as if it were another limb, etc. Paintings also show that the wrist is never flat a la thumb-under, but held out like a modern classical player does. There are even a fair number of paintings in which the pinky is not planted at all(!). You're quite right that its tricky to get a good tone with this position. I've found that paying strict attention to the contact point and pushing the string into the soundboard consistently regardless of where the thumb is goes a long way to keep the tone from getting brittle or nasally. Chris Danny On Tue, Jan 19, 2010 at 2:27 PM, [1]chriswi...@yahoo.com wrote: Ron, Good points. I'm working on exactly this point. The main issue with true thumb-out is getting a decent and - far more importantly - _consistent_ sound out of the treble strings. There clearly was a marked aural difference between the too positions that the baroquenists admired. How else to explain the Stammbuch of Stobaeus when he contrasts the pure, sharp, bright tone of thumb-out versus the rotten and muffled sound of old thumb-under. I think most modern baroque lutenists attempt to re-create the thumb-under sound. They therefore have an anachronistic conception of tone. I can't say that I agree with the rotten and muffled part, but for me, there is nothing saying that a brighter sound can't be expressive. In my experiments, I've found that it is quite possible to have a wide range of timbral, tonal and dynamic shadings. The lute just responds differently with the fingers in this position. Still a work in progress. The secondary issue is that the true baroque lute technique is very, very close to modern classical guitar technique. I think this strikes too close to home for many lutenists for whom thumb-under is part of the (modern) identity of what it means to be a real lute player, as distinct from wannabe classical guitarists who thrash around on a pear-shaped instrument at ren. fests, etc. Chris --- On Tue, 1/19/10, Ron Andrico [2]praelu...@hotmail.com wrote: From: Ron Andrico [3]praelu...@hotmail.com Subject: [LUTE] Re: Thumb rest stroke To: [4]chriswi...@yahoo.com, [5]l...@cs.dartmouth.edu, [6]dwinh...@comcast.net Date: Tuesday, January 19, 2010, 11:09 AM Chris All: The rest stroke for the thumb seems a logical means to both produce a strong bass and teach the thumb to keep track of diapasons, although there is no specific referral to this technique by name in any written historical source I've seen. The term 'rest stroke' seems to be a classical guitar convention useful in adapting to lute technique. The thing I find extremely puzzling in the 'awful lot of paintings' you mention is that, for late 16th and almost all 17th century examples, there is a nearly uniform depiction of a thumb-out technique, which is also described clearly in written sources. With one exception, nearly all our notable baroque lutenists of today use a thumb-under technique. This even applies to a lutenist I've seen in a recent video who is described as never having played renaissance lute. What gives? Why don't baroque lutenists today use what is an unquestionably obvious historical technique? I admit to not having paid much attention to this issue in the past. Sincerely puzzled, Ron Andrico [7]www.mignarda.com Date: Tue, 19 Jan 2010 05:10:57 -0800 To: [8]l...@cs.dartmouth.edu; [9]dwinh...@comcast.net From: [10]chriswi...@yahoo.com Subject: [LUTE] Re: Thumb rest stroke I've seen Paul O'Dette use repeated rest strokes in the bass, sometimes for fairly fast lines that I would
[LUTE] Re: Thumb rest stroke
My recording experience is that on double strings the rest stroke strikes the strings in sucession, so that there is a very slight stagger (very slight, but audible and visible in the string interference pattern), whereas an elliptical stroke with the thumb resting on both strings and pushing inwards towards the soundboard can strike both strings simultaneously. However, the player may desire the slightly thicker articulation. Not to mention that there is a lot of music in which the next string must vibrate, which is not possible with a true resting stroke but is possible with a grazing stroke. dt 06:53 AM 1/19/2010, you wrote: Hi All, I have always regarded the rest stroke with the thumb as being a kind of fundamental, a starting point. It doesn't have to be agressive, it's just a way of making sure that both strings of a course are struck fully and at the same time. I was taught (and hence still teach) that the thumb is a long, heavy thing - it moves only from where it joins the hand, way back at the wrist (all other joints stay relaxed) - and falls towards to floor, which (with the lute being slightly angled back) means towards the next course. With multi-course lutes where the thumb only plays the bass notes, this is all there is - rest strokes all the way, giving a nice solid sound to those octaved basses and the psychological and physical security of always knowing where the thumb is. With earlier lutes and music, where the thumb is very active on the treble strings, rest strokes are rare, but the movement is much the same. Best wishes, Martin To get on or off this list see list information at http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html
[LUTE] Re: Thumb rest stroke
Can you define what you mean by sounding neither renaissance or baroque? This seems to me to open up a host of additional questions like how do we know what either actually sounded like? I don't want to seem argumentative in any way but what you are saying here is that there are three sounds at work: Renaissance, Baroque and Neither one. I am totally confused. When one considers that we can only speculate on the real nature of the instruments, strings and have questions about technique, how can we be sure what we do and what we here is authentic? The only guideline I can remember is from Dowland in Varietie of Lute Lessons where in it was said to play sweetly? You certainly fill that niche, playing sweetly. - Original Message - From: David Tayler vidan...@sbcglobal.net To: lute-cs.dartmouth.edu lute@cs.dartmouth.edu Sent: Tuesday, January 19, 2010 6:26 PM Subject: [LUTE] Re: Thumb rest stroke It is very similar to a rest stroke, and yet very different. When using the two fingered graze, the fingers can either rest or brush against each other. Also, you can create the motion of the stroke without the ending, which can produce the same or similar sound--after the finger has left the string the sound is not affected. To my ear, most rest strokes sound neither renaissance nor baroque, and so I think the main thing to avoid is modern articulation. Of course that is subjective. dt At 05:32 PM 1/18/2010, you wrote: I don't see how that would be possible, there is nothing to rest against except the inside of the hand? - Original Message - From: terli...@aol.com To: lute@cs.dartmouth.edu Sent: Monday, January 18, 2010 6:34 PM Subject: [LUTE] Re: Thumb rest stroke Do any early sources describe something that could be interpreted as a rest stroke being used on the chanterelle? -Original Message- From: David R d_lu...@comcast.net To: nedma...@aol.com Cc: lute@cs.dartmouth.edu Sent: Mon, Jan 18, 2010 6:26 pm Subject: [LUTE] Re: Thumb rest stroke I think it came into use with the Venetian lutenists from 1500 or so. Obviously you can't use rest strokes when you're playing thumb-index diminutions, and you don't want to be damping the string directly below your thumb if it's supposed to be sounding, but as a general rule I think that wherever possible rest-stroke was the default way to strike a bass string with your thumb right from the beginning. Nobody knows what Dowland did. Is it so important? DR On Jan 18, 2010, at 4:31 PM, nedma...@aol.com wrote: I'm curious as to when it is thought the rest stroke for the thumb came into common use. Was it commonly used on the Renaissance lute? Do we think Dowland used it early, or late, or at all in his career? Thanks, Ned -- To get on or off this list see list information at http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html -- __ Information from ESET NOD32 Antivirus, version of virus signature database 4784 (20100118) __ The message was checked by ESET NOD32 Antivirus. http://www.eset.com __ Information from ESET NOD32 Antivirus, version of virus signature database 4784 (20100118) __ The message was checked by ESET NOD32 Antivirus. http://www.eset.com __ Information from ESET NOD32 Antivirus, version of virus signature database 4787 (20100119) __ The message was checked by ESET NOD32 Antivirus. http://www.eset.com __ Information from ESET NOD32 Antivirus, version of virus signature database 4787 (20100119) __ The message was checked by ESET NOD32 Antivirus. http://www.eset.com
[LUTE] Re: Thumb rest stroke
Ron makes some good points, as usual. But there are surely more than one who play thumb out for later stuff and thumb in for earlier stuff. Still a minority. There just aren't very many Thumb Center and Thumb Stretched players, which are commonly depicted and described. I'll go out on a limb and say the main problem with the rest stroke is that for some reason, and I don't see it as insolvable, rest strokes are liable to audible timing problems, and that is a big liability in the professional world, excluding some solo work which has its own rules. I also have the feeling that whatever way of plucking a string we could think of, they could think of as well, although the rest stroke seems to have its own unique vibe. dt But the point is well taken.At 08:09 AM 1/19/2010, you wrote: Chris All: The rest stroke for the thumb seems a logical means to both produce a strong bass and teach the thumb to keep track of diapasons, although there is no specific referral to this technique by name in any written historical source I've seen. The term 'rest stroke' seems to be a classical guitar convention useful in adapting to lute technique. The thing I find extremely puzzling in the 'awful lot of paintings' you mention is that, for late 16th and almost all 17th century examples, there is a nearly uniform depiction of a thumb-out technique, which is also described clearly in written sources. With one exception, nearly all our notable baroque lutenists of today use a thumb-under technique. This even applies to a lutenist I've seen in a recent video who is described as never having played renaissance lute. What gives? Why don't baroque lutenists today use what is an unquestionably obvious historical technique? I admit to not having paid much attention to this issue in the past. Sincerely puzzled, Ron Andrico www.mignarda.com Date: Tue, 19 Jan 2010 05:10:57 -0800 To: lute@cs.dartmouth.edu; dwinh...@comcast.net From: chriswi...@yahoo.com Subject: [LUTE] Re: Thumb rest stroke I've seen Paul O'Dette use repeated rest strokes in the bass, sometimes for fairly fast lines that I would take with p-i alternating (free) strokes. On the other hand, I've seen Robert Barto occasionally use rest strokes in the treble. There are an awful lot of paintings (especially, but not exclusively, baroque) in which the players are clearly using a rest stroke with the fingers a la classical guitar. In most of these the player is obviously tuning; in some, its not so clear. I know of no printed instructions, however. Chris To get on or off this list see list information at http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html __ Hotmail: Free, trusted and rich email service. [1]Get it now. -- References 1. http://clk.atdmt.com/GBL/go/196390708/direct/01/
[LUTE] Re: Thumb rest stroke
We don't know that Dowland played thumb over, he could very likely have played thumb stretched which produces a completely different sound. Try it, it takes 10 minutes to learn. Stretch your thumb as far as it will go, so it is taught, like a bow. And if thumb under, or inside or tips up is right for you, then follow your own true form dt At 10:45 AM 1/19/2010, you wrote: Well, I have wondered too, if - as I've read - Dowland evolved from thumb under to thumb over as he played lutes with more courses, why thumb over is not more commonly used. But then, I definitely hear and feel a significant difference between the two approaches when I manage to play a passage using each. My preference on my instrument is thumb under, when I'm able to manage it (still stuggling to be consistent with it. It looks so easy and natural when I see players proficient with it, and yet my hand is stubbornly resistant!). Ned -- To get on or off this list see list information at http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html
