Re: From Atheism to Islam

On 21 Mar 2017, at 22:09, John Clark wrote: On Tue, Mar 21, 2017 at 8:53 AM, Bruno Marchal wrote: ​>> ​You absolutely insist on changing the meaning of the English word "God " to mean "stuff", ​> ​Where? ​Oh I don't know, maybe every third post you've written in

Re: From Atheism to Islam

On Tue, Mar 21, 2017 at 8:53 AM, Bruno Marchal wrote: > ​>> ​ >> You absolutely insist on changing the meaning of the English word "God " >> to mean "stuff", > > > ​> ​ > Where? > ​Oh I don't know, maybe every third post you've written in the last 5 years.​ > ​> ​ > I

Re: From Atheism to Islam

On 18 Mar 2017, at 18:28, John Clark wrote: On Fri, Mar 17, 2017 at 11:06 AM, Bruno Marchal wrote: ​>>​​If Hilbert had insisted on equating the concept of a glass of beer with the English word "point", as you insist on equating the concept of stuff with the English

Re: From Atheism to Islam

On Fri, Mar 17, 2017 at 11:06 AM, Bruno Marchal wrote: ​>>​ >> ​If Hilbert had insisted on equating the concept of a glass of beer with >> the English word "point", as you insist on equating the concept of stuff >> with the English word "God", then one would be justified in

Re: From Atheism to Islam

On 08 Mar 2017, at 00:43, John Clark wrote: On Tue, Mar 7, 2017 at 6:05 AM, Bruno Marchal wrote: ​> ​You missed my explanation on "axiomatics". Hilbert took some times to explain it in lay terms. You might remember him telling that his geometry would not have its

Re: From Atheism to Islam

Dear John Clark, it is in most cases very entertaining to read your topical summer - saults, no matter in what matter. You, as most participants, DARE to go as far as "atheist", not further (and I mean: you do not delve into the domain of the AGNOSTIC) - the starting point of which is IGNORANCE

Re: From Atheism to Islam

On Tue, Mar 7, 2017 at 6:05 AM, Bruno Marchal wrote: ​> ​ > You missed my explanation on "axiomatics". Hilbert took some times to > explain it in lay terms. You might remember him telling that his geometry > would not have its content change in case you change the vocabulary,

Re: From Atheism to Islam

On 06 Mar 2017, at 23:45, John Clark wrote: On Mon, Mar 6, 2017 at 5:10 AM, Bruno Marchal wrote: ​​>> ​Yes it's possible that a majority of those fluent in the English language could have decided that the ASCII sequence "God" means the unknown ultimate/absolute

Re: From Atheism to Islam

On Sun, Mar 5, 2017 at 9:59 AM, Bruno Marchal wrote: ​> ​ > Like we can agree to use "god" in the sense of the philosopher: the > (unknown) ultimate/absolute reality. ​Yes it's possible that a majority of those fluent in the English language could have decided that the ASCII

Re: From Atheism to Islam

On 03 Mar 2017, at 19:25, John Clark wrote: On Fri, Mar 3, 2017 at 4:43 AM, Bruno Marchal wrote: ​> ​Science is not politics, you can't invoke numbers of believers, ​But Science is not vocabulary either, and you CAN invoke the number of speakers of the English

Re: From Atheism to Islam

On Fri, Mar 3, 2017 at 4:43 AM, Bruno Marchal wrote: ​> ​ > Science is not politics, you can't invoke numbers of believers, > ​But Science is not vocabulary either, and you *CAN *invoke the number of speakers of the English language to determine what a word in the English

Re: From Atheism to Islam

John, You are not discussing, and as long as you avoid the explanations, there will be no progress on this. Study what you criticize before please. Science is not politics, you can't invoke numbers of believers, nor invoke your favorite "glass of beer". Bruno On 02 Mar 2017, at 20:27,

Re: From Atheism to Islam

John Clark writes: >​>>​ You have no evidence that mathematics is more fundamental than >>> physics. None, I'm his evidence. Unless I misunderstand Bruno's ideas, I am the machine, ready to be interviewed for the laws of physics (when I don't have something better to do).

Re: From Atheism to Islam

On Thu, Mar 2, 2017 at 3:48 AM, Bruno Marchal wrote: > ​ > ​>>​ > A > rithmetical truth > ​ is not a being (superhuman or otherwise), > > ​> ​ > Not a being? > ​That is correct the multiplication table is not a being, and this must be the only place in the world where such a

Re: From Atheism to Islam

On 28 Feb 2017, at 23:59, John Clark wrote: On Tue, Feb 28, 2017 at 12:07 PM, Bruno Marchal wrot​ > 1 (in Christianity and other monotheistic religions) the creator and ruler of the universe and source of all moral authority; the supreme being. 2 (in certain other

Re: From Atheism to Islam

On Tue, Feb 28, 2017 at 12:07 PM, Bruno Marchal wrot​ >> >> >> *> 1 (in Christianity and other monotheistic religions) the creator and >> ruler of the universe and source of all moral authority; the supreme >> being. 2 (in certain other religions) a superhuman being or

Re: From Atheism to Islam

On 28 Feb 2017, at 00:50, John Clark wrote: On Mon, Feb 27, 2017 at 3:41 AM, Bruno Marchal wrote: ​> ​You describe the word when used in everyday life natural language. Once we write scientific paper, ​You are not writing a scientific paper when you're posting to

Re: From Atheism to Islam

On Mon, Feb 27, 2017 at 3:41 AM, Bruno Marchal wrote: ​> ​ > You describe the word when used in everyday life natural language. Once we > write scientific paper, > ​You are not writing a scientific paper when you're posting to this list. ​ > ​> ​ > we use more technical

Re: From Atheism to Islam

On 27 Feb 2017, at 01:43, John Clark wrote: Bruno Marchal via googlegroups.com wrote: >> There is no "maybe" about it, when it comes to the meaning of words the majority is ALWAYS right, ​> ​​I​f you are right, then physicists are wrong on many word, as a i saw in a BBC broadcasting

Re: From Atheism to Islam

On 26 Feb 2017, at 03:18, John Clark wrote: On Fri, Feb 24, 2017 at 1:57 PM, Bruno Marchal wrote: >​>​ The difference is that the billions of theists on the round thing we walk on still use "God" to be the Abrahamic superbeing. ​> ​Really? Interesting. Maybe they

Re: Consciousness (was Re: From Atheism to Islam

Hi Telmo! On 25 Feb 2017, at 16:32, Telmo Menezes wrote: Hi Bruno! Evolution is a theory on the origins of biological complexity. We know nothing about consciousness. Do you agree that consciousness is a form of knowledge? That is: consciousness requires some knowledge, and (genuine)

Re: Consciousness (was Re: From Atheism to Islam

ist@googlegroups.com> Sent: Sat, Feb 25, 2017 8:20 pm Subject: Re: Consciousness (was Re: From Atheism to Islam On 2/25/2017 11:06 AM, Telmo Menezes wrote: On Sat, 25 Feb 2017 at 18:17, John Clar

Re: From Atheism to Islam

On Fri, Feb 24, 2017 at 1:57 PM, Bruno Marchal wrote: > >> ​>​ >> The difference is that the billions of theists on the round thing > > we walk on still use "God" to be the Abrahamic superbeing. > > ​> ​ > Really? Interesting. Maybe they are right or close to right. ​T​

Re: Consciousness (was Re: From Atheism to Islam

On 2/25/2017 11:06 AM, Telmo Menezes wrote: On Sat, 25 Feb 2017 at 18:17, John Clark > wrote: On Sat, Feb 25, 2017 at 10:32 AM, Telmo Menezes > wrote: ​> ​ I

Re: Consciousness (was Re: From Atheism to Islam

On Sat, Feb 25, 2017 Telmo Menezes wrote: ​ > ​>> ​ >> ​Why, where is the mystery? If external information didn't CAUSE your >> consciousness to change you might as well be blind and deaf, ​and if >> consciousness didn't CAUSE external things to change you might as well

Re: Consciousness (was Re: From Atheism to Islam

On Sat, 25 Feb 2017 at 18:17, John Clark wrote: > On Sat, Feb 25, 2017 at 10:32 AM, Telmo Menezes > wrote: > > ​> ​ > I always have a hard time seeing consciousness as causal. > > > ​Why, where is the mystery? If external information didn't CAUSE

Re: Consciousness (was Re: From Atheism to Islam

On Sat, Feb 25, 2017 at 10:32 AM, Telmo Menezes wrote: ​> ​ > I always have a hard time seeing consciousness as causal. ​Why, where is the mystery? If external information didn't CAUSE your consciousness to change you might as well be blind and deaf, ​and if

Re: Consciousness (was Re: From Atheism to Islam

Hi Bruno! >> Evolution is a theory on the origins of biological complexity. We know >> nothing about consciousness. > > > > Do you agree that consciousness is a form of knowledge? That is: > consciousness requires some knowledge, and (genuine) knowledge requires some > conscious person)? I

Re: From Atheism to Islam

On 23 Feb 2017, at 21:45, Brent Meeker wrote: On 2/23/2017 6:29 AM, Bruno Marchal wrote: On 22 Feb 2017, at 01:08, Brent Meeker wrote: On 2/21/2017 11:03 AM, John Mikes wrote: Brent: do you think we are that sure how to identify intelligence and consciousness? Intelligence

Re: Consciousness (was Re: From Atheism to Islam

On 23 Feb 2017, at 21:12, Brent Meeker wrote: On 2/23/2017 12:34 AM, Bruno Marchal wrote: On 20 Feb 2017, at 16:33, Telmo Menezes wrote: On Sat, Feb 18, 2017 at 1:19 AM, John Clark wrote: On Wed, Feb 15, 2017 Telmo Menezes wrote:

Re: Consciousness/Intelligence (was Re: From Atheism to Islam

On 23 Feb 2017, at 21:48, Hans Moravec wrote: On 170223, at 3:23 PM, Brent Meeker wrote: John McCarthy warned many years ago that we should be careful not to create robots that had general intelligence, lest we inadvertently create conscious beings to whom we

Re: Consciousness/Intelligence (was Re: From Atheism to Islam

On 2/23/2017 1:43 PM, spudboy100 via Everything List wrote: I have long thought that I perceive, however wrongly, the birth of new species by combining with La Machine. For one, it beats the hell out of early death, that all flesh is now heir to. Secondly, it would give us all super

Re: Consciousness/Intelligence (was Re: From Atheism to Islam

hing-list <everything-list@googlegroups.com> Sent: Thu, Feb 23, 2017 4:01 pm Subject: Re: Consciousness/Intelligence (was Re: From Atheism to Islam On 2/23/2017 12:48 PM, Hans Moravec wrote: On 170223, at 3:23 PM, Brent Mee

Re: Consciousness/Intelligence (was Re: From Atheism to Islam

On 2/23/2017 12:48 PM, Hans Moravec wrote: On 170223, at 3:23 PM, Brent Meeker > wrote: John McCarthy warned many years ago that we should be careful not to create robots that had general intelligence, lest we inadvertently create

Re: Consciousness/Intelligence (was Re: From Atheism to Islam

> On 170223, at 3:23 PM, Brent Meeker wrote: > >>> John McCarthy warned many years ago that we should be careful not to create >>> robots that had general intelligence, lest we inadvertently create >>> conscious beings to whom we would have ethical obligations. >> >>

Re: From Atheism to Islam

On 2/23/2017 6:29 AM, Bruno Marchal wrote: On 22 Feb 2017, at 01:08, Brent Meeker wrote: On 2/21/2017 11:03 AM, John Mikes wrote: Brent: do you think we are that sure how to identify /intelligence and consciousness? / */_Intelligence _ (inter-lego)/* *__I identify from the linguistic

Re: Consciousness/Intelligence (was Re: From Atheism to Islam

On 2/23/2017 12:44 AM, Bruno Marchal wrote: On 20 Feb 2017, at 20:52, Brent Meeker wrote: On 2/20/2017 7:33 AM, Telmo Menezes wrote: On Sat, Feb 18, 2017 at 1:19 AM, John Clark wrote: On Wed, Feb 15, 2017 Telmo Menezes wrote: Dark

Re: Consciousness (was Re: From Atheism to Islam

On 2/23/2017 12:34 AM, Bruno Marchal wrote: On 20 Feb 2017, at 16:33, Telmo Menezes wrote: On Sat, Feb 18, 2017 at 1:19 AM, John Clark wrote: On Wed, Feb 15, 2017 Telmo Menezes wrote: Dark Matter and Dark Energy remain complete

Re: From Atheism to Islam

On 22 Feb 2017, at 01:08, Brent Meeker wrote: On 2/21/2017 11:03 AM, John Mikes wrote: Brent: do you think we are that sure how to identify intelligence and consciousness? Intelligence (inter-lego) I identify from the linguistic origin (Latin) as READING BETWEEN THE (properly)

Re: From Atheism to Islam

On 18 Feb 2017, at 01:19, John Clark wrote: On Wed, Feb 15, 2017 Telmo Menezes wrote: >​>​ Dark Matter and Dark Energy remain complete mysteries. ​> ​As far as I can tell, what we have is a falsification of current theories. They appear to be good enough

Consciousness/Intelligence (was Re: From Atheism to Islam

On 20 Feb 2017, at 20:52, Brent Meeker wrote: On 2/20/2017 7:33 AM, Telmo Menezes wrote: On Sat, Feb 18, 2017 at 1:19 AM, John Clark wrote: On Wed, Feb 15, 2017 Telmo Menezes wrote: Dark Matter and Dark Energy remain complete mysteries.

Consciousness (was Re: From Atheism to Islam

On 20 Feb 2017, at 16:33, Telmo Menezes wrote: On Sat, Feb 18, 2017 at 1:19 AM, John Clark wrote: On Wed, Feb 15, 2017 Telmo Menezes wrote: Dark Matter and Dark Energy remain complete mysteries. As far as I can tell, what we have is

Re: From Atheism to Islam

On 2/21/2017 11:03 AM, John Mikes wrote: Brent: do you think we are that sure how to identify /intelligence and consciousness? / */_Intelligence _ (inter-lego)/* *__I identify from the linguistic origin (Latin) as READING BETWEEN THE (properly) EXPRESSED FEATURES - *to detect additional

Re: From Atheism to Islam

Brent: do you think we are that sure how to identify *intelligence and consciousness? * *Intelligence (inter-lego)* * I identify from the linguistic origin (Latin) as READING BETWEEN THE (properly) EXPRESSED FEATURES - *to detect additional sense (maybe hidden so far). *Consciousness* is

Re: From Atheism to Islam

On Mon, Feb 20, 2017 Telmo Menezes wrote: > ​> ​ > So what you are saying is that "consciousness is the > ​ ​ > way matter feels when it participates in an intelligent computation". > ​More precisely what I am saying is ​ consciousness is the ​ ​ way ​ data feels like

Re: From Atheism to Islam

On 2/20/2017 7:33 AM, Telmo Menezes wrote: On Sat, Feb 18, 2017 at 1:19 AM, John Clark wrote: On Wed, Feb 15, 2017 Telmo Menezes wrote: Dark Matter and Dark Energy remain complete mysteries. As far as I can tell, what we have is a

Re: From Atheism to Islam

On Sat, Feb 18, 2017 at 1:19 AM, John Clark wrote: > On Wed, Feb 15, 2017 Telmo Menezes wrote: > >>> > >>> > >>> Dark Matter and Dark Energy remain complete mysteries. >> >> >> >> > >> As far as I can tell, what we have is a falsification of current

Re: From Atheism to Islam

On 2/19/2017 9:59 AM, spudboy100 via Everything List wrote: Yeah, the idea that Dark energy is something we know today, more than 17 years ago, doesn't seem accurate. We have has several astronomical surveys that indicate a range of things, and nothing for certain. One survey has indicated

Re: From Atheism to Islam

hing-list@googlegroups.com> Sent: Sat, Feb 18, 2017 7:04 pm Subject: Re: From Atheism to Islam On 2/18/2017 3:14 PM, John Clark wrote: On Sat, Feb 18, 2017 at5:07 PM, Brent Meeker <meeke...@veri

Re: From Atheism to Islam

On 2/18/2017 3:14 PM, John Clark wrote: On Sat, Feb 18, 2017 at 5:07 PM, Brent Meeker >wrote: ​> ​ he ​[Einstein] ​ didn't notice that it was an unstable equilibrium - a very elementary mistake. ​I would humbly submit

Re: From Atheism to Islam

On Sat, Feb 18, 2017 at 5:07 PM, Brent Meeker wrote: > ​> ​ > he > ​[Einstein] ​ > didn't notice that it was an unstable equilibrium - a very elementary > mistake. > ​I would humbly submit that when trying to figure out what 4-dimensional non-Euclidean Tensor calculus ​is

Re: From Atheism to Islam

On 2/18/2017 10:18 AM, John Clark wrote: On Fri, Feb 17, 2017 at 11:19 PM, Brent Meeker > wrote ​> ​ The cosmological constant appears as an integration constant in solutions to Einstein's equations. ​ ​Yes, so

Re: From Atheism to Islam

On Fri, Feb 17, 2017 at 11:19 PM, Brent Meeker wrote > ​> ​ > The cosmological constant appears as an integration constant in solutions > to Einstein's equations. > ​ > ​Yes, so mathematically it could have any value including zero. ​ > ​> ​ > It would be good to know

Re: From Atheism to Islam

On 2/17/2017 4:19 PM, John Clark wrote: On Wed, Feb 15, 2017 Telmo Menezes >wrote: > ​>​ Dark Matter and Dark Energy remain complete mysteries. ​> ​ As far as I can tell, what we have is a falsification

Re: From Atheism to Islam

On Wed, Feb 15, 2017 Telmo Menezes wrote: > >> ​>​ >> Dark Matter and Dark Energy remain complete mysteries. > > ​> ​ > As far as I can tell, what we have is a falsification of current > theories. They appear to be good enough approximations for many > things, but then

Re: From Atheism to Islam

On Fri, Feb 10, 2017 at 8:11 PM, John Clark wrote: > On Thu, Feb 9, 2017 at 10:26 PM, Telmo Menezes > wrote: > >> > >> If we look back in scientific history, there always seems to be >> something fundamental that humanity is blind to. The real scale

Re: From Atheism to Islam

On 10 Feb 2017, at 20:37, John Clark wrote: On Fri, Feb 10, 2017 at 12:01 PM, Bruno Marchal wrote: ​> ​The meaning of words in the natural language is defined by usage, ​Yes.​ ​> ​not in science, ​Not so. Scientific language like any language changes over time.

Re: From Atheism to Islam

On Tuesday, February 7, 2017 at 12:59:48 PM UTC+1, Alberto G.Corona wrote: > > Lol. There is no way to avoid the absolute since nothing can be based on > nothing,. > > In this case you reify nothing, which is purely negative, as absence of > anything,, and convert it to "something". And this

Re: From Atheism to Islam

On Fri, Feb 10, 2017 at 12:01 PM, Bruno Marchal wrote: ​> ​ > The meaning of words in the natural language is defined by usage, ​Yes.​ > ​> ​ > not in science, ​Not so. Scientific language like any language changes over time. Today the meaning of the word "vacuum" ​isn't

Re: From Atheism to Islam

On Thu, Feb 9, 2017 at 10:26 PM, Telmo Menezes wrote: ​> ​ > If we look back in scientific history, there always seems to be > ​ ​ > something fundamental that humanity is blind to. The real scale of the > ​ ​ > universe in space and time, the non-specialness of our solar

Re: From Atheism to Islam

On 09 Feb 2017, at 19:15, Brent Meeker wrote: On 2/9/2017 6:03 AM, Bruno Marchal wrote: Many religious people believe that the idea that God cares more on humans than on spiders (say) is just utter arrogance, vanity, and delusional. "Many"? That's the fallacy of the dangling

Re: From Atheism to Islam

On Thu, Feb 9, 2017 at 8:11 PM, John Clark wrote: > On Wed, Feb 8, 2017 at 2:34 AM, Telmo Menezes > wrote: > > >>> > Does the agnostic or the atheist have >>> t >>> he correct scientific >>> stance regarding a teapot in orbit around Uranus? I like

Re: From Atheism to Islam

On Wed, Feb 8, 2017 at 2:34 AM, Telmo Menezes wrote: > > Does the agnostic or the atheist have >> ​ t​ >> he correct scientific >> ​ ​ >> stance regarding a teapot in orbit around Uranus? I like what the great >> ​ ​ >> Isaac Asimov >> ​ ​ >> had to say on the subject: >

Re: From Atheism to Islam

On 2/9/2017 6:03 AM, Bruno Marchal wrote: Many religious people believe that the idea that God cares more on humans than on spiders (say) is just utter arrogance, vanity, and delusional. "Many"? That's the fallacy of the dangling comparison. Many compared to what? Not compared to the

Re: From Atheism to Islam

On 08 Feb 2017, at 20:15, Brent Meeker wrote: On 2/8/2017 9:49 AM, Bruno Marchal wrote: On 08 Feb 2017, at 04:53, Brent Meeker wrote: On 2/7/2017 9:12 AM, Bruno Marchal wrote: Which is exactly why I'm explicit in defining what the theism is that I consider preposterous and what other

Re: From Atheism to Islam

On 08 Feb 2017, at 05:05, Brent Meeker wrote: On 2/7/2017 10:49 AM, Bruno Marchal wrote: This world. The one I can interact with. Ah! You mean this dream. yes, it looks we can share part of it, and interact with many users, like in second life. But to believe there is a primary

Re: From Atheism to Islam

On 2/8/2017 9:49 AM, Bruno Marchal wrote: On 08 Feb 2017, at 04:53, Brent Meeker wrote: On 2/7/2017 9:12 AM, Bruno Marchal wrote: Which is exactly why I'm explicit in defining what the theism is that I consider preposterous and what other god ideas I'm merely agnostic about. Then Bruno

Re: From Atheism to Islam

On 08 Feb 2017, at 04:53, Brent Meeker wrote: On 2/7/2017 9:12 AM, Bruno Marchal wrote: Which is exactly why I'm explicit in defining what the theism is that I consider preposterous and what other god ideas I'm merely agnostic about. Then Bruno criticizes me for "supporting" the

Re: From Atheism to Islam

On 08 Feb 2017, at 04:02, Brent Meeker wrote: On 2/7/2017 2:16 AM, Telmo Menezes wrote: Yes. The relation of mathematics to facts in the world is one of description. That a dx/dt = -x has a decaying exponential as a solution is not a fact about the world. As any engineer will tell you,

Re: From Atheism to Islam

On 07 Feb 2017, at 12:59, Alberto G. Corona wrote: Lol. There is no way to avoid the absolute since nothing can be based on nothing,. In this case you reify nothing, which is purely negative, as absence of anything,, and convert it to "something". And this something that you implicitly

Re: From Atheism to Islam

On Tue, Feb 7, 2017 at 12:59 PM, Alberto G. Corona wrote: > Lol. There is no way to avoid the absolute since nothing can be based on > nothing,. There is a difference between "the absolute" and "absolute belief". I believe in an ultimate reality, but I am not sure we can see

Re: From Atheism to Islam

On Wed, Feb 8, 2017 at 4:25 AM, John Clark wrote: > On Tue, Jan 31, 2017 at 12:32 PM, Telmo Menezes > wrote: > > >> > >> I would say that, under these definitions, the correct scientific >> s >> tance is to be agnostic. > > > Does the agnostic or the

Re: From Atheism to Islam

On 2/7/2017 10:49 AM, Bruno Marchal wrote: This world. The one I can interact with. Ah! You mean this dream. yes, it looks we can share part of it, and interact with many users, like in second life. But to believe there is a primary world behind this requires an act of faith, and

Re: From Atheism to Islam

On 2/7/2017 9:12 AM, Bruno Marchal wrote: Which is exactly why I'm explicit in defining what the theism is that I consider preposterous and what other god ideas I'm merely agnostic about. Then Bruno criticizes me for "supporting" the former; rather than help him muddy the meaning of "God"

Re: From Atheism to Islam

On Tue, Jan 31, 2017 at 12:32 PM, Telmo Menezes wrote: > ​> ​ > I would say that, under these definitions, the correct scientific > ​ s > tance is to be agnostic. > ​Does the agnostic or the atheist have the correct scientific ​ stance ​regarding a teapot in orbit around

Re: From Atheism to Islam

On 2/7/2017 2:16 AM, Telmo Menezes wrote: Yes. The relation of mathematics to facts in the world is one of description. That a dx/dt = -x has a decaying exponential as a solution is not a fact about the world. As any engineer will tell you, it means that if the differential equation is a

Re: From Atheism to Islam

On 06 Feb 2017, at 23:32, Brent Meeker wrote: On 2/6/2017 2:09 PM, Bruno Marchal wrote: As such it has nothing to do with facts in the world. Which world? This world. The one I can interact with. Ah! You mean this dream. yes, it looks we can share part of it, and interact with

Re: From Atheism to Islam

On 06 Feb 2017, at 20:22, Brent Meeker wrote: On 2/6/2017 2:39 AM, Telmo Menezes wrote: On Sun, Feb 5, 2017 at 9:21 PM, Brent Meeker wrote: On 2/5/2017 3:14 AM, Telmo Menezes wrote: Inconsistent? Would you have people who oppose fascism not have a definition of

Re: From Atheism to Islam

Lol. There is no way to avoid the absolute since nothing can be based on nothing,. In this case you reify nothing, which is purely negative, as absence of anything,, and convert it to "something". And this something that you implicitly postulate is an absolute ethical principle of humility, which

Re: From Atheism to Islam

On 2/6/2017 2:09 PM, Bruno Marchal wrote: As such it has nothing to do with facts in the world. Which world? This world. The one I can interact with. Sorry, with computationalism, there is only a web of dreams, and it is an open problem if those "cohere" enough to define a notion of

Re: From Atheism to Islam

On 05 Feb 2017, at 21:21, Brent Meeker wrote: On 2/5/2017 3:14 AM, Telmo Menezes wrote: Inconsistent? Would you have people who oppose fascism not have a definition of fascism - so that they were just opposing some undefined, amorphous ideology? It is interesting that you bring this

Re: From Atheism to Islam

On 2/6/2017 2:39 AM, Telmo Menezes wrote: On Sun, Feb 5, 2017 at 9:21 PM, Brent Meeker wrote: On 2/5/2017 3:14 AM, Telmo Menezes wrote: Inconsistent? Would you have people who oppose fascism not have a definition of fascism - so that they were just opposing some

Re: From Atheism to Islam

On Monday, February 6, 2017 at 11:39:35 AM UTC+1, telmo_menezes wrote: > > On Sun, Feb 5, 2017 at 9:21 PM, Brent Meeker > wrote: > > > > > > And so do you think of yourself as agnostic about the value of > fascism?...or > > communism? > > Yes, I reject simplistic

Re: From Atheism to Islam

On Sun, Feb 5, 2017 at 9:21 PM, Brent Meeker wrote: > > > On 2/5/2017 3:14 AM, Telmo Menezes wrote: >>> >>> Inconsistent? Would you have people who oppose fascism not have a >>> definition of fascism - so that they were just opposing some undefined, >>> amorphous ideology?

Re: From Atheism to Islam

On 03 Feb 2017, at 19:53, Brent Meeker wrote: On 2/3/2017 1:41 AM, Bruno Marchal wrote: On 02 Feb 2017, at 17:50, Brent Meeker wrote: On 2/2/2017 1:40 AM, Telmo Menezes wrote: Initial remark: I am not a theist! It is possible to reject both theism and atheism. It's called agnosticism.

Re: From Atheism to Islam

On 2/5/2017 3:14 AM, Telmo Menezes wrote: Inconsistent? Would you have people who oppose fascism not have a definition of fascism - so that they were just opposing some undefined, amorphous ideology? It is interesting that you bring this up. Are you familiar with the essay "Ur-fascism" by

Re: From Atheism to Islam

On Sunday, February 5, 2017 at 12:14:27 PM UTC+1, telmo_menezes wrote: > > > > Then they built monuments to science and progress, made to inspire awe > > and fear, just like cathedrals. An example is the Fernsehturm in > > Berlin, made to resemble the Sputnik and the be seen from afar. It was

Re: From Atheism to Islam

> Inconsistent? Would you have people who oppose fascism not have a > definition of fascism - so that they were just opposing some undefined, > amorphous ideology? It is interesting that you bring this up. Are you familiar with the essay "Ur-fascism" by Umberto Eco? He discusses precisely how

Re: From Atheism to Islam

On 2/4/2017 10:51 AM, John Mikes wrote: Stathis asked: */Is agnosticism about God different from agnosticism about other entities such as fairies and elves?/* My reply is ab astounding *_ " N O " _* I wold add to te fairies and elves the forces, the energy, the matter and all facets of a

Re: From Atheism to Islam

Stathis asked: *Is agnosticism about God different from agnosticism about other entities such as fairies and elves?* My reply is ab astounding * " N O " * I wold add to te fairies and elves the forces, the energy, the matter and all facets of a universe-built world we came up with in our

Re: From Atheism to Islam

On 2/3/2017 1:41 AM, Bruno Marchal wrote: On 02 Feb 2017, at 17:50, Brent Meeker wrote: On 2/2/2017 1:40 AM, Telmo Menezes wrote: Initial remark: I am not a theist! It is possible to reject both theism and atheism. It's called agnosticism. On Wed, Feb 1, 2017 at 9:20 PM, Brent

Re: From Atheism to Islam

On 02 Feb 2017, at 17:50, Brent Meeker wrote: On 2/2/2017 1:40 AM, Telmo Menezes wrote: Initial remark: I am not a theist! It is possible to reject both theism and atheism. It's called agnosticism. On Wed, Feb 1, 2017 at 9:20 PM, Brent Meeker wrote: On 2/1/2017

Re: From Atheism to Islam

On 2/2/2017 1:40 AM, Telmo Menezes wrote: Initial remark: I am not a theist! It is possible to reject both theism and atheism. It's called agnosticism. On Wed, Feb 1, 2017 at 9:20 PM, Brent Meeker wrote: On 2/1/2017 3:10 AM, Telmo Menezes wrote: I agree with the

Re: From Atheism to Islam

On Thursday, February 2, 2017 at 12:19:46 PM UTC+1, Bruno Marchal wrote: > > > On 01 Feb 2017, at 21:20, Brent Meeker wrote: > > > > > > > > Brent > > "Atheism is a belief system the way "Off" is a TV channel." > >--- George Carlin > > That is agnosticism (in the usual mundane sense).

Re: From Atheism to Islam

On 01 Feb 2017, at 21:20, Brent Meeker wrote: On 2/1/2017 3:10 AM, Telmo Menezes wrote: I agree with the video. You might also like this: https://s-media-cache-ak0.pinimg.com/236x/a6/a9/9f/a6a99fb6a3ad81cefc08ba8a67dab9e0.jpg The narrator says: "putting god ahead of humanity is a terrible

Re: From Atheism to Islam

Initial remark: I am not a theist! It is possible to reject both theism and atheism. It's called agnosticism. On Wed, Feb 1, 2017 at 9:20 PM, Brent Meeker wrote: > > > On 2/1/2017 3:10 AM, Telmo Menezes wrote: >> >> I agree with the video. You might also like this: >> >>

Re: From Atheism to Islam

On 2/1/2017 3:10 AM, Telmo Menezes wrote: I agree with the video. You might also like this: https://s-media-cache-ak0.pinimg.com/236x/a6/a9/9f/a6a99fb6a3ad81cefc08ba8a67dab9e0.jpg The narrator says: "putting god ahead of humanity is a terrible thing". I agree, but what I meant from the

Re: From Atheism to Islam

On 01 Feb 2017, at 12:10, Telmo Menezes wrote: I agree with the video. You might also like this: https://s-media-cache-ak0.pinimg.com/236x/a6/a9/9f/a6a99fb6a3ad81cefc08ba8a67dab9e0.jpg The narrator says: "putting god ahead of humanity is a terrible thing". I agree, but what I meant from the

Re: From Atheism to Islam

I agree with the video. You might also like this: https://s-media-cache-ak0.pinimg.com/236x/a6/a9/9f/a6a99fb6a3ad81cefc08ba8a67dab9e0.jpg The narrator says: "putting god ahead of humanity is a terrible thing". I agree, but what I meant from the beginning is even more general. I would say:

Re: From Atheism to Islam

On Wed, Feb 1, 2017 at 3:50 AM, Brent Meeker wrote: > > > On 1/31/2017 9:32 AM, Telmo Menezes wrote: >>> >>> Are you really agnostic about the god of theism? >> >> Quoting from wikipedia: >> >> "The term theism derives from the Greek theos meaning "god". The term >> theism

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