[NTG-context] Re: hyphenation inside quotation

[Hans Hagen]

On 8/22/2023 9:59 AM, Henning Hraban Ramm wrote:

Am 20.08.23 um 08:32 schrieb Wolfgang Schuster:

In the next release you don't need the method=font anymore because the 
missing hyphenation
is the result of a old patch which was needed in 2013. Back than there 
was no problem
with hyphenation and the patch but since than Hans added a few new 
features to Luametatex
to improve the quotation mechanism and the patch results now in the 
unwanted side effect.


I always had \setupdelimitedtext[quotation][method=font] in my 
environments without really understanding it (remark: enables hanging 
quotation marks).


So both methods (font/text) are obsolete now / with an upcoming update?
no, we only remove a penalty preventing hyphensation .. there is no need 
to change this mechanism


-
  Hans Hagen | PRAGMA ADE
  Ridderstraat 27 | 8061 GH Hasselt | The Netherlands
   tel: 038 477 53 69 | www.pragma-ade.nl | www.pragma-pod.nl
-

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[NTG-context] Re: hyphenation inside quotation

[Henning Hraban Ramm]

Am 20.08.23 um 08:32 schrieb Wolfgang Schuster:

In the next release you don't need the method=font anymore because the 
missing hyphenation
is the result of a old patch which was needed in 2013. Back than there 
was no problem
with hyphenation and the patch but since than Hans added a few new 
features to Luametatex
to improve the quotation mechanism and the patch results now in the 
unwanted side effect.


I always had \setupdelimitedtext[quotation][method=font] in my 
environments without really understanding it (remark: enables hanging 
quotation marks).


So both methods (font/text) are obsolete now / with an upcoming update?

Hraban
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[NTG-context] Re: hyphenation inside quotation

[Wolfgang Schuster]

Thomas A. Schmitz schrieb am 19.08.2023 um 18:10:

On 8/19/23 17:51, Wolfgang Schuster wrote:


You can use the font method to have hyphenated words back.
The culprit which prevents hyphenation are the penalty settings
which are added by ConTeXt when the default method is used.

\mainlanguage [de]

\setuppapersize [A6]

\setupquotation[method=text]


Hi Wolfgang,

as always, thanks for the precise explanation. Is there a reason why 
this behavior is not the default? I.e.: in what situations would the 
default behavior be (more) desirable? Or is it just because 
\setupquotation is a subset of \setupdelimitedtext?


Quotation is a instance of delimitedtext and the \setupquotation command 
is \setupdelimitedtext[quotation].


In the next release you don't need the method=font anymore because the 
missing hyphenation
is the result of a old patch which was needed in 2013. Back than there 
was no problem
with hyphenation and the patch but since than Hans added a few new 
features to Luametatex
to improve the quotation mechanism and the patch results now in the 
unwanted side effect.


Wolfgang

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[NTG-context] Re: hyphenation inside quotation

[Thomas A. Schmitz]

On 8/19/23 17:51, Wolfgang Schuster wrote:


You can use the font method to have hyphenated words back.
The culprit which prevents hyphenation are the penalty settings
which are added by ConTeXt when the default method is used.

\mainlanguage [de]

\setuppapersize [A6]

\setupquotation[method=text]


Hi Wolfgang,

as always, thanks for the precise explanation. Is there a reason why 
this behavior is not the default? I.e.: in what situations would the 
default behavior be (more) desirable? Or is it just because 
\setupquotation is a subset of \setupdelimitedtext?


All best

Thomas

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[NTG-context] Re: hyphenation inside quotation

[Wolfgang Schuster]

Thomas A. Schmitz schrieb am 19.08.2023 um 16:01:

Hi,

is this a limitation or a bug? Text inside \quotation{} is not 
hyphenated. It appears to be like this for a couple of versions, but 
I'm not sure if it has always been the case. Silly example to test:


You can use the font method to have hyphenated words back.
The culprit which prevents hyphenation are the penalty settings
which are added by ConTeXt when the default method is used.

\mainlanguage [de]

\setuppapersize [A6]

\setupquotation[method=text]

\starttext

„Originalgenie“ „Originalgenie“ „Originalgenie“

\quotation{Originalgenie} \quotation{Originalgenie} 
\quotation{Originalgenie}


„\penalty\plustenthousand Originalgenie\penalty\plustenthousand“
„\penalty\plustenthousand Originalgenie\penalty\plustenthousand“
„\penalty\plustenthousand Originalgenie\penalty\plustenthousand“

\stoptext

Wolfgang

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[NTG-context] hyphenation inside quotation

[Thomas A. Schmitz]

Hi,

is this a limitation or a bug? Text inside \quotation{} is not 
hyphenated. It appears to be like this for a couple of versions, but I'm 
not sure if it has always been the case. Silly example to test:


\mainlanguage [de]

\setuppapersize [A6]

\setupbodyfont [14pt]

\starttext

„Originalgenie“ „Originalgenie“ „Originalgenie“

\quotation{Originalgenie} \quotation{Originalgenie} 
\quotation{Originalgenie}


\stoptext

All best

Thomas
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Re: [NTG-context] \quotation, protrusion and linebreaking

[Wolfgang Schuster via ntg-context]

Alan Braslau schrieb am 13.10.2022 um 00:43:

On 12/10/22 12/10/22, 14:25, Wolfgang Schuster via ntg-context wrote:

Denis Maier via ntg-context schrieb am 12.10.2022 um 21:17:

Instead of what?


By default the symbols are placed with a box because you aren't limited
to normal quotation marks.

\setupexternalfigure [location=default]

\setupdelimitedtext
   [quotation]
   [ left={\externalfigure[cow][height=\strutht]},
    right={\externalfigure[cow][height=\strutht]}]


I *like* cow delimiters (but shouldn't the right one be reflected?) ;-)


Better?

\setupdelimitedtext
  [quotation]
  [ 
left={\offset[y=.5\strutdp]{\externalfigure[cow][height=\dimexpr\strutht+.5\strutdp\relax]}\nbsp},

right={\nbsp\mirror{\offset[y=.5\strutdp]{\externalfigure[cow][height=\dimexpr\strutht+.5\strutdp\relax]}}}]

Wolfgang

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Re: [NTG-context] \quotation, protrusion and linebreaking

[Alan Braslau via ntg-context]

On 12/10/22 12/10/22, 14:25, Wolfgang Schuster via ntg-context wrote:

Denis Maier via ntg-context schrieb am 12.10.2022 um 21:17:

Instead of what?


By default the symbols are placed with a box because you aren't limited
to normal quotation marks.

\setupexternalfigure [location=default]

\setupdelimitedtext
   [quotation]
   [ left={\externalfigure[cow][height=\strutht]},
    right={\externalfigure[cow][height=\strutht]}]


I *like* cow delimiters (but shouldn't the right one be reflected?) ;-)

Alan

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Re: [NTG-context] \quotation, protrusion and linebreaking

[Wolfgang Schuster via ntg-context]

Denis Maier via ntg-context schrieb am 12.10.2022 um 21:17:

Instead of what?


By default the symbols are placed with a box because you aren't limited
to normal quotation marks.

\setupexternalfigure [location=default]

\setupdelimitedtext
  [quotation]
  [ left={\externalfigure[cow][height=\strutht]},
   right={\externalfigure[cow][height=\strutht]}]

\starttext

\quotation{\input weisman }

\stoptext

Wolfgang

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Re: [NTG-context] \quotation, protrusion and linebreaking

[Rik Kabel via ntg-context]

On 2022-10-11 15:06, Leah Neukirchen via ntg-context wrote:

Henning Hraban Ramm via ntg-context  writes:


Am 11.10.22 um 20:00 schrieb Leah Neukirchen via ntg-context:

Hello,
I noticed the following problem:
\showframe
\startluacode
fonts.protrusions.vectors.pure[0x201C] = { 1, 1 }
\stopluacode
\definefontfeature[default][default][protrusion=pure]
\setupalign[hanging]
\starttext
This text is unquoted.
“This text is quoted manually.”
\quotation{This text is quoted by a macro.}
This is a very long line followed by a nice linebreak, very
supercalifragilisticexpialidocious.
This is a very long line followed by an ugly linebreak, not
\quotation{supercalifragilisticexpialidocious}
\stoptext
The macro-quoted text is not protruded.  I fixed this locally with a
macro
\def\q#1{\protrusionboundary1\quotation{#1}}
Should this be default?
But the missing hyphenation I have to add myself with \-.  Ideas?

Try
\setupdelimitedtext[quotation][method=font]

That fixes both issues, thanks!

Not sure where I should have learned this exists, however. ;)


Note that this does not fix the problem when the quotation begins a 
footnote. See the thread "Hanging punctuation misalignment in footnotes" 
(https://mailman.ntg.nl/pipermail/ntg-context/2014/077122.html or 
https://www.mail-archive.com/ntg-context@ntg.nl/msg73516.html, pick your 
favorite archiver), where the problem is described. An test example follows:


   \setuplayout   [width=9cm,
    height=12cm]
   \definefontfeature [default]
   [default]
   [protrusion=quality]
   \setupalign    [hanging]
   \setupquotation    [method=font]
   \setupnote [endnote]
   [location=none]
   \setupnotation [footnote]
   [numberconversion=set 2]
   \setupnotation [footnote]
   [align=hanging]
   \setupwhitespace   [medium]
   \setupbodyfont [libertinus]
   \showframe
   \starttext

   \quotation{{\em Cantharides}} is the reported message from Sir Francis
   Drake upon defeating the Spanish Armada.\endnote{\quotation{{\em
   Vovi}} is
   reportedly the message from James Broun|-|Ramsay on taking Oudh. Both
   are as likely as the attribution of \quotation{{\em peccavi}} to
   Napier after
   his defeat of the Ameer of Scinde.}\footnote{“{\em Vovi}” is
   reportedly the message from James Broun|-|Ramsay on taking Oudh. Both
   are as likely as the attribution of \quotation{{\em peccavi}} to
   Napier after
   his defeat of the Ameer of Scinde.}

   {\tfx This problem appears intractable. See \quotation{Re:
   [NTG-context] Hanging punctuation misalignment in footnotes} on the
   mailing list, where Wolfgang explains that the problem is struts.}

   \placenotes[endnote]

   \stoptext

A solution is welcomed.

--
Rik
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Re: [NTG-context] \quotation, protrusion and linebreaking

[Denis Maier via ntg-context]

> -Ursprüngliche Nachricht-
> Von: ntg-context  Im Auftrag von Hans Hagen
> via ntg-context
> Gesendet: Mittwoch, 12. Oktober 2022 21:12
> An: Denis Maier via ntg-context 
> Cc: Hans Hagen 
> Betreff: Re: [NTG-context] \quotation, protrusion and linebreaking
> 
> On 10/12/2022 8:49 PM, Denis Maier via ntg-context wrote:
> >> -Ursprüngliche Nachricht-
> >> Von: ntg-context  Im Auftrag von Henning
> >> Hraban Ramm via ntg-context
> >> Gesendet: Mittwoch, 12. Oktober 2022 10:15
> >> An: ntg-context@ntg.nl
> >> Cc: Henning Hraban Ramm 
> >> Betreff: Re: [NTG-context] \quotation, protrusion and linebreaking
> >>
> >> Am 11.10.22 um 21:06 schrieb Leah Neukirchen:
> >>> Henning Hraban Ramm via ntg-context  writes:
> >>>> \setupdelimitedtext[quotation][method=font]
> >>>
> >
> > Just a quick request for clarification: What does that actually do?
> uses glyph in font instead (most opentype have them)

Instead of what?
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Re: [NTG-context] \quotation, protrusion and linebreaking

[Hans Hagen via ntg-context]

On 10/12/2022 8:49 PM, Denis Maier via ntg-context wrote:

-Ursprüngliche Nachricht-
Von: ntg-context  Im Auftrag von Henning
Hraban Ramm via ntg-context
Gesendet: Mittwoch, 12. Oktober 2022 10:15
An: ntg-context@ntg.nl
Cc: Henning Hraban Ramm 
Betreff: Re: [NTG-context] \quotation, protrusion and linebreaking

Am 11.10.22 um 21:06 schrieb Leah Neukirchen:

Henning Hraban Ramm via ntg-context  writes:

\setupdelimitedtext[quotation][method=font]




Just a quick request for clarification: What does that actually do?

uses glyph in font instead (most opentype have them)


-
  Hans Hagen | PRAGMA ADE
  Ridderstraat 27 | 8061 GH Hasselt | The Netherlands
   tel: 038 477 53 69 | www.pragma-ade.nl | www.pragma-pod.nl
-
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Re: [NTG-context] \quotation, protrusion and linebreaking

[Denis Maier via ntg-context]

> -Ursprüngliche Nachricht-
> Von: ntg-context  Im Auftrag von Henning
> Hraban Ramm via ntg-context
> Gesendet: Mittwoch, 12. Oktober 2022 10:15
> An: ntg-context@ntg.nl
> Cc: Henning Hraban Ramm 
> Betreff: Re: [NTG-context] \quotation, protrusion and linebreaking
> 
> Am 11.10.22 um 21:06 schrieb Leah Neukirchen:
> > Henning Hraban Ramm via ntg-context  writes:
> >> \setupdelimitedtext[quotation][method=font]
> >

Just a quick request for clarification: What does that actually do?

Best,
Denis
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Re: [NTG-context] \quotation, protrusion and linebreaking

[Henning Hraban Ramm via ntg-context]

Am 11.10.22 um 21:06 schrieb Leah Neukirchen:

Henning Hraban Ramm via ntg-context  writes:

\setupdelimitedtext[quotation][method=font]


That fixes both issues, thanks!

Not sure where I should have learned this exists, however. ;)


Oops, I answered only to Leah:

I agree. Someone (Hans or Wolfgang, probably) told me at one time, or I 
picked it up from a discussion on the list, and it’s part of my default 
setup since.


Hraban

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Re: [NTG-context] \quotation, protrusion and linebreaking

[Leah Neukirchen via ntg-context]

Henning Hraban Ramm via ntg-context  writes:

> Am 11.10.22 um 20:00 schrieb Leah Neukirchen via ntg-context:
>> Hello,
>> I noticed the following problem:
>> \showframe
>> \startluacode
>>fonts.protrusions.vectors.pure[0x201C] = { 1, 1 }
>> \stopluacode
>> \definefontfeature[default][default][protrusion=pure]
>> \setupalign[hanging]
>> \starttext
>> This text is unquoted.
>> “This text is quoted manually.”
>> \quotation{This text is quoted by a macro.}
>> This is a very long line followed by a nice linebreak, very
>> supercalifragilisticexpialidocious.
>> This is a very long line followed by an ugly linebreak, not
>> \quotation{supercalifragilisticexpialidocious}
>> \stoptext
>> The macro-quoted text is not protruded.  I fixed this locally with a
>> macro
>> \def\q#1{\protrusionboundary1\quotation{#1}}
>> Should this be default?
>> But the missing hyphenation I have to add myself with \-.  Ideas?
>
> Try
> \setupdelimitedtext[quotation][method=font]

That fixes both issues, thanks!

Not sure where I should have learned this exists, however. ;)

-- 
Leah Neukirchenhttps://leahneukirchen.org/
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Re: [NTG-context] \quotation, protrusion and linebreaking

[Henning Hraban Ramm via ntg-context]

Am 11.10.22 um 20:00 schrieb Leah Neukirchen via ntg-context:

Hello,

I noticed the following problem:


\showframe

\startluacode
   fonts.protrusions.vectors.pure[0x201C] = { 1, 1 }
\stopluacode

\definefontfeature[default][default][protrusion=pure]
\setupalign[hanging]

\starttext

This text is unquoted.

“This text is quoted manually.”

\quotation{This text is quoted by a macro.}

This is a very long line followed by a nice linebreak, very 
supercalifragilisticexpialidocious.

This is a very long line followed by an ugly linebreak, not 
\quotation{supercalifragilisticexpialidocious}

\stoptext


The macro-quoted text is not protruded.  I fixed this locally with a macro
\def\q#1{\protrusionboundary1\quotation{#1}}
Should this be default?

But the missing hyphenation I have to add myself with \-.  Ideas?


Try
\setupdelimitedtext[quotation][method=font]

Hraban

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[NTG-context] \quotation, protrusion and linebreaking

[Leah Neukirchen via ntg-context]

Hello,

I noticed the following problem:


\showframe

\startluacode
  fonts.protrusions.vectors.pure[0x201C] = { 1, 1 }
\stopluacode

\definefontfeature[default][default][protrusion=pure]
\setupalign[hanging]

\starttext

This text is unquoted.

“This text is quoted manually.”

\quotation{This text is quoted by a macro.}

This is a very long line followed by a nice linebreak, very 
supercalifragilisticexpialidocious.

This is a very long line followed by an ugly linebreak, not 
\quotation{supercalifragilisticexpialidocious}

\stoptext


The macro-quoted text is not protruded.  I fixed this locally with a macro
\def\q#1{\protrusionboundary1\quotation{#1}}
Should this be default?

But the missing hyphenation I have to add myself with \-.  Ideas?

-- 
Leah Neukirchenhttps://leahneukirchen.org/
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Re: [NTG-context] missing space with French quotation

[Peter Münster via ntg-context]

On Thu, Sep 22 2022, Jean-Pierre Delange via ntg-context wrote:

> But why use \startquotation when \quotation{something} does the job
> just fine?

It's not the same:

\starttext
bla \quotation{quotation} bla
\blank[big]
bla
\startquotation
  quotation
\stopquotation
bla
\stoptext


> I use the command \startnarrower and \stopnarrower.

It's not the same:

\starttext
\startquotation
  quotation\\quotation
\stopquotation
\startnarrower
  \quotation{quotation\\quotation}
\stopnarrower
\stoptext

-- 
   Peter
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Re: [NTG-context] missing space with French quotation

[Jean-Pierre Delange via ntg-context]

Hi Peter,

I know that's not the expected answer and I'm sorry about that. But why 
use \startquotation when \quotation{something} does the job just fine?


I've looked to replicate your MWE and for my part, there's just a space 
missing at the end of the quote before the last quote (but I'm working 
with an older version of CTX). To get the quote indented, instead of 
\startquotation, I use the command \startnarrower and \stopnarrower.


What about something like this :

\mainlanguage[fr] \setcharacterspacing[frenchpunctuation]

\starttext bla \quotation{Que d'hommes entre Dieu et moi !} bla\\ bla 
«OK» bla


\startnarrower

\quotation{\tfx{On cherche à mieux cerner les effets des commandes de 
\ConTeXt sur les citations et les espaces entre les guillemets}}


\stopnarrower

\stoptext


Sorry if my answer is not very helpful !

JP




Le 21/09/2022 à 18:12, Peter Münster via ntg-context a écrit :

Hi,

With the latest ConTeXt version, there is a missing space:

\mainlanguage[fr]
\setcharacterspacing[frenchpunctuation]
\starttext
bla \quotation{OK} bla\\
bla «OK» bla
\startquotation
   Here is missing space
\stopquotation
\stoptext

How could I get back the space before "»" please?

TIA for any help,


--
Jean-Pierre Delange
Agrégé de philosophie
Ancients
"Few discoveries are more irritating than those which expose the pedigree of 
ideas" - Lord Acton
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[NTG-context] missing space with French quotation

[Peter Münster via ntg-context]

Hi,

With the latest ConTeXt version, there is a missing space:

\mainlanguage[fr]
\setcharacterspacing[frenchpunctuation]
\starttext
bla \quotation{OK} bla\\
bla «OK» bla
\startquotation
  Here is missing space
\stopquotation
\stoptext

How could I get back the space before "»" please?

TIA for any help,
-- 
   Peter
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Re: [NTG-context] Curling straight quotation marks

[Thangalin via ntg-context]

>
>
> Just use \quotation and \quote, then you have the right settings for
> many languages and can also be sure that quotes get closed and are
> consistent over the whole document.
>

Thanks Hraban.

That won't work with my workflow. I edit in Markdown (plain text),
transform to XML, then pass the XML to ConTeXt. When I edit the document, I
want to use ' and " without tying the document to TeX. This gives me a
complete separation of content from presentation logic.

Figured it might be helpful if others have the same workflow.

Cheers!
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Re: [NTG-context] Curling straight quotation marks

[Henning Hraban Ramm via ntg-context]

Am 24.08.22 um 02:13 schrieb Thangalin via ntg-context:

Hey folks,

I re-wrote the algorithm KeenWrite uses for curling straight quotes. The 
new algorithm is fairly robust with respect to North American and 
British English. Could use help finding edge cases:


https://whitemagicsoftware.com/keenquotes/ 
<https://whitemagicsoftware.com/keenquotes/>


I use it for preprocessing documents prior to passing them to ConTeXt.


Just use \quotation and \quote, then you have the right settings for 
many languages and can also be sure that quotes get closed and are 
consistent over the whole document.


Hraban
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[NTG-context] Curling straight quotation marks

[Thangalin via ntg-context]

Hey folks,

I re-wrote the algorithm KeenWrite uses for curling straight quotes. The
new algorithm is fairly robust with respect to North American and British
English. Could use help finding edge cases:

https://whitemagicsoftware.com/keenquotes/

I use it for preprocessing documents prior to passing them to ConTeXt.

Cheers!
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Re: [NTG-context] french quotation marks

[Denis Maier via ntg-context]

Here is what the french Wikipedia page says:


Méthode avec doubles guillemets-apostrophes : « L’ouvreuse m’a dit : 
“Donnez-moi votre ticket.” Je le lui ai donné. »

Recommandée en français canadien[19],[20] et utilisée par de nombreuses 
publications françaises tel que le journal Le Monde[21].

Méthode avec doubles guillemets répétés : « L’ouvreuse m’a dit : « 
Donnez-moi votre ticket. » Je le lui ai donné. »

Recommandée par l'Imprimerie nationale et aussi sur Wikipédia en français, 
conformément à ses conventions typographiques. Noter que l’Imprimerie nationale 
recommande l’omission de l’un des guillemets fermants en cas de cumul de 
guillemets quand une citation se termine sur une citation incluse[22].

Méthode avec simples guillemets : « L’ouvreuse m’a dit : ‹ Donnez-moi votre 
ticket. › Je le lui ai donné. »

Recommandée en typographie suisse, avec des espaces fines insécables[23].



Von: ntg-context  im Auftrag von Alan via 
ntg-context 
Gesendet: Dienstag, 26. Juli 2022 20:13:43
An: Henning Hraban Ramm via ntg-context
Cc: Alan
Betreff: Re: [NTG-context] french quotation marks

On Tue, 26 Jul 2022 13:38:34 +0200
Henning Hraban Ramm via ntg-context  wrote:

> Am 26.07.22 um 11:48 schrieb Arthur Rosendahl:
> > On Tue, Jul 12, 2022 at 09:51:35PM +0200, Henning Hraban Ramm via
> > ntg-context wrote:
> >> Hi, according to my knowledge (and also Wikipedia), French uses «
> >> … » as double (\quotation) and ‹ … › as single (\quote) quotation
> >> marks.
> >>
> >> The current setting in ConTeXt however is « … » for both, just
> >> with less spacing for \quote.
> >> If no francophone user objects I’d suggest to fix this.
> >
> >I object :-)  Single chevrons are not used at all in typography
> > from France.  I read however on
> > https://fr.wikipedia.org/wiki/Guillemet that they are in
> > Switzerland, hence if that can be confirmed there could be an
> > option for Swiss French; but in the mean time I think that the
> > current setup should stay as it is.
>
> Ok, thank you!
> So the German Wikipedia as well as “DUDEN Satz und Korrektur“ are
> wrong.

I agree with Arthur. The use of < > would be an anglicism.

Alan
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Re: [NTG-context] french quotation marks

[Alan via ntg-context]

On Tue, 26 Jul 2022 13:38:34 +0200
Henning Hraban Ramm via ntg-context  wrote:

> Am 26.07.22 um 11:48 schrieb Arthur Rosendahl:
> > On Tue, Jul 12, 2022 at 09:51:35PM +0200, Henning Hraban Ramm via
> > ntg-context wrote:
> >> Hi, according to my knowledge (and also Wikipedia), French uses «
> >> … » as double (\quotation) and ‹ … › as single (\quote) quotation
> >> marks.
> >>
> >> The current setting in ConTeXt however is « … » for both, just
> >> with less spacing for \quote.
> >> If no francophone user objects I’d suggest to fix this.
> > 
> >I object :-)  Single chevrons are not used at all in typography
> > from France.  I read however on
> > https://fr.wikipedia.org/wiki/Guillemet that they are in
> > Switzerland, hence if that can be confirmed there could be an
> > option for Swiss French; but in the mean time I think that the
> > current setup should stay as it is.
> 
> Ok, thank you!
> So the German Wikipedia as well as “DUDEN Satz und Korrektur“ are
> wrong.

I agree with Arthur. The use of < > would be an anglicism.

Alan
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Re: [NTG-context] french quotation marks

[Henning Hraban Ramm via ntg-context]

Am 26.07.22 um 11:48 schrieb Arthur Rosendahl:

On Tue, Jul 12, 2022 at 09:51:35PM +0200, Henning Hraban Ramm via ntg-context 
wrote:

Hi, according to my knowledge (and also Wikipedia), French uses « … » as
double (\quotation) and ‹ … › as single (\quote) quotation marks.

The current setting in ConTeXt however is « … » for both, just with less
spacing for \quote.
If no francophone user objects I’d suggest to fix this.


   I object :-)  Single chevrons are not used at all in typography from
France.  I read however on https://fr.wikipedia.org/wiki/Guillemet that
they are in Switzerland, hence if that can be confirmed there could be
an option for Swiss French; but in the mean time I think that the
current setup should stay as it is.


Ok, thank you!
So the German Wikipedia as well as “DUDEN Satz und Korrektur“ are wrong.

Hraban
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Re: [NTG-context] french quotation marks

[Arthur Rosendahl via ntg-context]

On Tue, Jul 12, 2022 at 09:51:35PM +0200, Henning Hraban Ramm via ntg-context 
wrote:
> Hi, according to my knowledge (and also Wikipedia), French uses « … » as
> double (\quotation) and ‹ … › as single (\quote) quotation marks.
> 
> The current setting in ConTeXt however is « … » for both, just with less
> spacing for \quote.
> If no francophone user objects I’d suggest to fix this.

  I object :-)  Single chevrons are not used at all in typography from
France.  I read however on https://fr.wikipedia.org/wiki/Guillemet that
they are in Switzerland, hence if that can be confirmed there could be
an option for Swiss French; but in the mean time I think that the
current setup should stay as it is.

Best,

Arthur
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[NTG-context] french quotation marks

[Henning Hraban Ramm via ntg-context]

Hi, according to my knowledge (and also Wikipedia), French uses « … » as 
double (\quotation) and ‹ … › as single (\quote) quotation marks.


The current setting in ConTeXt however is « … » for both, just with less 
spacing for \quote.

If no francophone user objects I’d suggest to fix this.

Hraban


\mainlanguage[fr]
\starttext
\quotation{\quote{Wikipédia} est un projet d’encyclopédie collective en 
ligne, universelle, multilingue et fonctionnant sur le principe du 
\quotation{wiki}.}

\stoptext
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Re: [NTG-context] \placeinitial to account for quotation mark

[Hans Hagen via ntg-context]

On 9/25/2021 10:45 PM, Thangalin via ntg-context wrote:

Henri Menke provided a partial solution:

\defineinitial[two][method={first,auto}]
\setuphead[chapter][
   after={\placeinitial[two]},
   page=no,
]

\starttext
\chapter{Harriet Tubman}
"Every great dream begins with a dreamer. Always remember, you have within
you the strength, the patience, and the passion to reach for the stars to
change the world.
\chapter{Eleanor Roosevelt}
Great minds discuss ideas; average minds discuss events; small minds
discuss people.
\stoptext

However, the leading quotation mark is gobbled. Is there any generic way 
of detecting a leading quotation mark while keeping initial caps on the 
first character?

i'll send you something off-list to test

-
  Hans Hagen | PRAGMA ADE
  Ridderstraat 27 | 8061 GH Hasselt | The Netherlands
   tel: 038 477 53 69 | www.pragma-ade.nl | www.pragma-pod.nl
-
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Re: [NTG-context] \placeinitial to account for quotation mark

[Bruce Horrocks via ntg-context]

> On 25 Sep 2021, at 21:45, Thangalin via ntg-context  
> wrote:
> 
> Henri Menke provided a partial solution:
> 
> \defineinitial[two][method={first,auto}]
> \setuphead[chapter][
>   after={\placeinitial[two]},
>   page=no,
> ]
> 
> \starttext
> \chapter{Harriet Tubman}
> "Every great dream begins with a dreamer. Always remember, you have within
> you the strength, the patience, and the passion to reach for the stars to
> change the world.
> \chapter{Eleanor Roosevelt}
> Great minds discuss ideas; average minds discuss events; small minds
> discuss people.
> \stoptext
> 
> However, the leading quotation mark is gobbled. Is there any generic way of 
> detecting a leading quotation mark while keeping initial caps on the first 
> character?
> 

Not really generic, and maybe not what you want, but there is this:

\chapter{Eleanor Roosevelt}
\setupinitial[text={"G}]
reat minds discuss ideas; average minds discuss events; small minds
discuss people.

—
Bruce Horrocks
Hampshire, UK

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Re: [NTG-context] \placeinitial to account for quotation mark

[Thangalin via ntg-context]

Henri Menke provided a partial solution:

\defineinitial[two][method={first,auto}]
\setuphead[chapter][
  after={\placeinitial[two]},
  page=no,
]

\starttext
\chapter{Harriet Tubman}
"Every great dream begins with a dreamer. Always remember, you have within
you the strength, the patience, and the passion to reach for the stars to
change the world.
\chapter{Eleanor Roosevelt}
Great minds discuss ideas; average minds discuss events; small minds
discuss people.
\stoptext

However, the leading quotation mark is gobbled. Is there any generic way of
detecting a leading quotation mark while keeping initial caps on the first
character?

Thank you!
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[NTG-context] \placeinitial to account for quotation mark

[Thangalin via ntg-context]

Hi list,

The following example shows a lettrine that stylizes a quotation mark:

\setuphead[chapter][
  after={\placeinitial},
  page=no,
]
\starttext\chapter{Harriet Tubman}
"Every great dream begins with a dreamer. Always remember, you have within
you the strength, the patience, and the passion to reach for the stars to
change the world.\chapter{Eleanor Roosevelt}
Great minds discuss ideas; average minds discuss events; small minds
discuss people.\stoptext

Without changing the text itself, how would you make the lettrine stylize
the E in Every while making the quotation mark retain the body font (i.e.,
much smaller and hang to the left, possibly protruding into the margin)?

For reference: https://tex.stackexchange.com/q/609544/2148

Thank you!
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[NTG-context] Protruding quotation marks obviate narrowed quotations

[Michael Guravage]

Several months ago I posed the following question.

When I start a paragraph with a \quote or a \quotation the left quotemark
does not protrude, but when I use Unicode quotes it does. I would prefer to
use the commands. Any suggestions on how I can achieve proper left
protrusion without resorting to Unicode characters?

Wolfgang suggested the following lines of code; which worked perfically.

\setupquotation [method=font]
\setupquote [method=font]

Returning to this project after several months I observe that when I use a
\start- stopquotation environment, the quotation is not narrowed. The
\setupquotation command obviously affects both the \quotation command and
\start- stopquotation environment.

Is there an elegant way to apply the \setupquotation command and retain the
quotation indentation?

Cheers,
Michael

Here's a mwe.

\showframe
\showgrid
\setupwhitespace[medium]

% Setup hanging punctuation, less severe style
\definefontfeature
  [default]
  [default]
  [protrusion=punctuation,expansion=quality]
\setupalign[hz,hanging]

% Provide protrusion for quotations.
\setupquotation[method=font] % Toggle this line to see the effect.
\setupquote[method=font]

\starttext
  \startparagraph
\quotation[method=font]{Love makes the world go round,} as an old
proverb has it\ldots
  \stopparagraph
  \startquotation
\input tufte
  \stopquotation
\stoptext
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[NTG-context] Quote mark missing from first paragraph in quotation when location=text

[Michael Murphy]

Hi,

I have some long dialogue that I'm trying to typeset and I want to use the
convention of repeating the open quotation mark on each paragraph of
continued dialogue. I know I can set this up by doing something like

\setupdelimitedtext[quotation][repeat=yes, middle=\upperleftdoublesixquote]

This works well, except in cases where the dialog starts in the middle of a
paragraph. By default \startquotation starts a new paragraph. I think the
way to suppress that is to set location=text, but when I try that I get the
odd effect that the first paragraph doesn't get quotes but the following
ones do. Minimal example below.

\setupdelimitedtext[quotation][repeat=yes, middle=\upperleftdoublesixquote,
location=text]
\starttext
Some text that's not part of the quotation.
\startquotation
\input knuth
\stopquotation
\stoptext

I’m on LMTX 2.08.04, Context version 2020.12.04 20:22

Any ideas?

Michael
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Re: [NTG-context] multiparagraph quotation

[type]

Thank you, Wolfgang, for your prompt and helpful solution!

Although I didn't make it clear in the minimal working example, I am using this 
for ordinary dialog.  For the record (and for anyone searching the mailing list 
in the future), to get that to work right, I had to put in one more thing into 
the first line of the example to get it to work:

\setupdelimitedtext[quotation][repeat=yes, middle=“, leftmargin=0pt]
\starttext
\startquotation
\input knuth
\stopquotation
\stoptext

It seems like a little bit of overkill to set up a \startquotation 
\stopquotation  for each piece of dialog, but it certainly solves the problem 
to do so.

Again, many thanks! I'll post your solution to a suitable place in the Wiki 
when I get a chance.


Sciurus


-Original Message-
From: Wolfgang Schuster  
Sent: Monday, November 2, 2020 10:56 AM
To: mailing list for ConTeXt users 
Cc: t...@projectivespace.com
Subject: Re: [NTG-context] multiparagraph quotation

t...@projectivespace.com schrieb am 02.11.2020 um 18:26:
> I'm trying to get quotation marks at the beginning of each new paragraph in
> quotations (in ConTeXt Mk IV), as is the convention in English. Here's a
> minimal working example of what I have tried:
> 
> \setupdelimitedtext[quotation][repeat=yes, middle="]
> \starttext
> \quotation{\input knuth
> }

\startquotation
\input knuth
\stopquotation

Wolfgang

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Re: [NTG-context] multiparagraph quotation

[Wolfgang Schuster]

t...@projectivespace.com schrieb am 02.11.2020 um 18:26:

I'm trying to get quotation marks at the beginning of each new paragraph in
quotations (in ConTeXt Mk IV), as is the convention in English. Here's a
minimal working example of what I have tried:

\setupdelimitedtext[quotation][repeat=yes, middle="]
\starttext
\quotation{\input knuth
}


\startquotation
\input knuth
\stopquotation

Wolfgang
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[NTG-context] multiparagraph quotation

[type]

I'm trying to get quotation marks at the beginning of each new paragraph in
quotations (in ConTeXt Mk IV), as is the convention in English. Here's a
minimal working example of what I have tried:

\setupdelimitedtext[quotation][repeat=yes, middle="]
\starttext
\quotation{\input knuth
}
\stoptext

However, it doesn't put left quotes at the start of each paragraph the way
I'd like it to.

I got this approach from the wiki page
https://wiki.contextgarden.net/Command/setupdelimitedtext . However, I'm
guessing this may have been only for Mk II since the \setupdelimitedtext
doesn't seem to do anything here. (From what is said above on the wiki page,
it looks like this might be only for Mk II, but I can't t tell.)

I have searched the mailing list and stackexchange but haven't found a
solution. I'm guessing that there's a simple way to do this that I am just
not aware of. I'd appreciate any help anyone can offer me (and I'd be glad
to put the solution into the wiki if that's appropriate, too).

Thanks,


Sciurus




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Re: [NTG-context] Quotation with footnote

[Henning Hraban Ramm]

Am 04.09.2020 um 16:04 schrieb Taco Hoekwater :
> \definenarrower[myquote]
> \setupnarrower[myquote]
>  [left=2em,
>   right=1.5em,
>   before=\dontleavehmode\hskip-0.33em\startquote,
>   after=\stopquote]
> 
> \startmyquote
> Im übrigen ist der Mensch ein Lebewesen, das klopft, schlechte Musik macht 
> und seinen Hund bellen läßt. Manchmal gibt er auch Ruhe, aber dann ist er tot.
> \stopmyquote \footnote[f:9]{Kaspar Hauser (Kurt Tucholsky), Weltbühne 24, 
> 16.\,6.\,1931}

The behaviour changed in current LMTX – I thought, but then I recognized I was 
accidentally using MkIV from January:

If I used
\setupdelimitedtext[quotation][method=font]
I didn’t get indentation ("narrower") any more.

If I didn’t, the footnote marker moved into the next line.


Just to document that change – seems to be a fixed bug.


Hraban
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Re: [NTG-context] Quotation with footnote

[Henning Hraban Ramm]

> Am 04.09.2020 um 16:20 schrieb Wolfgang Schuster 
> :
> 
> \startsetups [userdata:myquote]
> \startnarrow [left=2em,right=1.5em]
> %\dontleavehmode\llap{\symbol[leftquotation]}\getinlineuserdata\symbol[rightquotation]
> \symbol[leftquotation]\getinlineuserdata\symbol[rightquotation]
> \doifsomething{\userdataparameter{source}}
> {\footnote[\userdataparameter{reference}]{\userdataparameter{source}}}
> \stopnarrow
> \stopsetups
> 
> \defineuserdataalternative
>   [myquote]
>   [renderingsetup=userdata:myquote]
> 
> \defineuserdata
>   [myquote]
>   [alternative=myquote]
> 
> \showframe
> 
> \definefontfeature [default] [default] [protrusion=quality]
> 
> \setupalign [hanging]
> 
> \starttext
> 
> \startuserdata [myquote] [reference={f:9},source={Kaspar Hauser (Kurt 
> Tucholsky), Weltbühne 24, 16.\,6.\,1931}]
> Im übrigen ist der Mensch ein Lebewesen, das klopft, schlechte Musik macht 
> und seinen Hund bellen läßt. Manchmal gibt er auch Ruhe, aber dann ist er tot.
> \stopuserdata
> 
> \stoptext

Thank you! This is quite sophisticated and I’ll keep it for next time, but for 
my current book, Taco’s solutions needs less adaption.

Hraban
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Re: [NTG-context] Quotation with footnote

[Henning Hraban Ramm]

> Am 04.09.2020 um 16:04 schrieb Taco Hoekwater :
> 
> Something like this?
> 
> \definenarrower[myquote]
> \setupnarrower[myquote]
>  [left=2em,
>   right=1.5em,
>   before=\dontleavehmode\hskip-0.33em\startquote,
>   after=\stopquote]
> 
> \startmyquote
> Im übrigen ist der Mensch ein Lebewesen, das klopft, schlechte Musik macht 
> und seinen Hund bellen läßt. Manchmal gibt er auch Ruhe, aber dann ist er tot.
> \stopmyquote \footnote[f:9]{Kaspar Hauser (Kurt Tucholsky), Weltbühne 24, 
> 16.\,6.\,1931}
> 
> But there may be smarter solutions.

Thank you, that works and requires minimal adaptions to my code.

Hraban

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Re: [NTG-context] Quotation with footnote

[Wolfgang Schuster]

Henning Hraban Ramm schrieb am 04.09.2020 um 15:34:

Am 04.09.2020 um 13:25 schrieb Henning Hraban Ramm :

My current book contains a lot of quotations with their sources marked as 
footnotes, e.g.


\definedelimitedtext[Zitat][
  %setups=Zitat, % doesn’t work!?
  left=»,
  right=«,
  leftmargin=2em,
  rightmargin=1.5em,
]

\startZitat
A rose is a rose is a rose.\footnote{Marx brothers}
\stopZitat


Now, since the quotations are whole sentences or paragraphs, the footnote 
marker needs to be placed _after_ the closing quotation mark. (German 
typography, I learned it’s different at least in US English.)

I tried several approaches e.g. with my own single start/stop macros that call 
\start/stopnarrower or \start/stopZitat – that always lead to unclosed 
environments.

This looks as I want it to:

\setupnarrower[left=2em,right=1.5em]

\startnarrower
\hskip-0.33em\quotation{Im übrigen ist der Mensch ein Lebewesen, das klopft, 
schlechte Musik macht und seinen Hund bellen läßt. Manchmal gibt er auch Ruhe, 
aber dann ist er tot.}\footnote[f:9]{Kaspar Hauser (Kurt Tucholsky), Weltbühne 
24, 16.\,6.\,1931}
\stopnarrower

But how can I make that into a single environment?


\startsetups [userdata:myquote]
    \startnarrow [left=2em,right=1.5em]
%\dontleavehmode\llap{\symbol[leftquotation]}\getinlineuserdata\symbol[rightquotation]
    \symbol[leftquotation]\getinlineuserdata\symbol[rightquotation]
    \doifsomething{\userdataparameter{source}}
{\footnote[\userdataparameter{reference}]{\userdataparameter{source}}}
    \stopnarrow
\stopsetups

\defineuserdataalternative
  [myquote]
  [renderingsetup=userdata:myquote]

\defineuserdata
  [myquote]
  [alternative=myquote]

\showframe

\definefontfeature [default] [default] [protrusion=quality]

\setupalign [hanging]

\starttext

\startuserdata [myquote] [reference={f:9},source={Kaspar Hauser (Kurt 
Tucholsky), Weltbühne 24, 16.\,6.\,1931}]
Im übrigen ist der Mensch ein Lebewesen, das klopft, schlechte Musik 
macht und seinen Hund bellen läßt. Manchmal gibt er auch Ruhe, aber dann 
ist er tot.

\stopuserdata

\stoptext

Wolfgang

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Re: [NTG-context] Quotation with footnote

[Taco Hoekwater]

Something like this?


\definenarrower[myquote]
\setupnarrower[myquote]
  [left=2em,
   right=1.5em,
   before=\dontleavehmode\hskip-0.33em\startquote,
   after=\stopquote]

\startmyquote
Im übrigen ist der Mensch ein Lebewesen, das klopft, schlechte Musik macht und 
seinen Hund bellen läßt. Manchmal gibt er auch Ruhe, aber dann ist er tot.
\stopmyquote \footnote[f:9]{Kaspar Hauser (Kurt Tucholsky), Weltbühne 24, 
16.\,6.\,1931}


But there may be smarter solutions.

Best wishes,
Taco

> On 4 Sep 2020, at 13:25, Henning Hraban Ramm  wrote:
> 
> My current book contains a lot of quotations with their sources marked as 
> footnotes, e.g.
> 
> 
> \definedelimitedtext[Zitat][
>  %setups=Zitat, % doesn’t work!?
>  left=»,
>  right=«,
>  leftmargin=2em,
>  rightmargin=1.5em,
> ]
> 
> \startZitat
> A rose is a rose is a rose.\footnote{Marx brothers}
> \stopZitat
> 
> 
> Now, since the quotations are whole sentences or paragraphs, the footnote 
> marker needs to be placed _after_ the closing quotation mark. (German 
> typography, I learned it’s different at least in US English.)
> 
> I tried several approaches e.g. with my own single start/stop macros that 
> call \start/stopnarrower or \start/stopZitat – that always lead to unclosed 
> environments.
> 
> * Only the delimitedtext approach gives a hanging opening quotation mark 
> (which looks nice and I’d like to have).
> 
> * \stopnarrower within a macro doesn’t seem to work (all following text stays 
> narrower).
> 
> * I can’t get rid of that space introduced by the CR before \stop – didn’t 
> find a place where \gobblespacetokens works, maybe that’s the wrong command.
> 
> 
> Most preferred would be a solution that checked if there’s a footnote in 
> front of \stopZitat and would put the closing quotation mark in front instead 
> of after. Without a footnote it would just place the mark.
> 
> Something like \stopZitat\footnote{...} would also be nice, but I guess 
> that’s too far outside of TeX’s logic.
> 
> In the worst case I’d need to typeset the closing mark manually.
> 
> Some hints please?
> 
> Hraban
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Elvenkind BV




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Re: [NTG-context] Quotation with footnote

[Henning Hraban Ramm]

> Am 04.09.2020 um 13:25 schrieb Henning Hraban Ramm :
> 
> My current book contains a lot of quotations with their sources marked as 
> footnotes, e.g.
> 
> 
> \definedelimitedtext[Zitat][
>  %setups=Zitat, % doesn’t work!?
>  left=»,
>  right=«,
>  leftmargin=2em,
>  rightmargin=1.5em,
> ]
> 
> \startZitat
> A rose is a rose is a rose.\footnote{Marx brothers}
> \stopZitat
> 
> 
> Now, since the quotations are whole sentences or paragraphs, the footnote 
> marker needs to be placed _after_ the closing quotation mark. (German 
> typography, I learned it’s different at least in US English.)
> 
> I tried several approaches e.g. with my own single start/stop macros that 
> call \start/stopnarrower or \start/stopZitat – that always lead to unclosed 
> environments.

This looks as I want it to:

\setupnarrower[left=2em,right=1.5em]

\startnarrower
\hskip-0.33em\quotation{Im übrigen ist der Mensch ein Lebewesen, das klopft, 
schlechte Musik macht und seinen Hund bellen läßt. Manchmal gibt er auch Ruhe, 
aber dann ist er tot.}\footnote[f:9]{Kaspar Hauser (Kurt Tucholsky), Weltbühne 
24, 16.\,6.\,1931}
\stopnarrower

But how can I make that into a single environment?


Hraban
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[NTG-context] Quotation with footnote

[Henning Hraban Ramm]

My current book contains a lot of quotations with their sources marked as 
footnotes, e.g.


\definedelimitedtext[Zitat][
  %setups=Zitat, % doesn’t work!?
  left=»,
  right=«,
  leftmargin=2em,
  rightmargin=1.5em,
]

\startZitat
A rose is a rose is a rose.\footnote{Marx brothers}
\stopZitat


Now, since the quotations are whole sentences or paragraphs, the footnote 
marker needs to be placed _after_ the closing quotation mark. (German 
typography, I learned it’s different at least in US English.)

I tried several approaches e.g. with my own single start/stop macros that call 
\start/stopnarrower or \start/stopZitat – that always lead to unclosed 
environments.

* Only the delimitedtext approach gives a hanging opening quotation mark (which 
looks nice and I’d like to have).

* \stopnarrower within a macro doesn’t seem to work (all following text stays 
narrower).

* I can’t get rid of that space introduced by the CR before \stop – didn’t find 
a place where \gobblespacetokens works, maybe that’s the wrong command.


Most preferred would be a solution that checked if there’s a footnote in front 
of \stopZitat and would put the closing quotation mark in front instead of 
after. Without a footnote it would just place the mark.

Something like \stopZitat\footnote{...} would also be nice, but I guess that’s 
too far outside of TeX’s logic.

In the worst case I’d need to typeset the closing mark manually.

Some hints please?

Hraban
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[NTG-context] Nested quotation and left-hanging punctuation together?

[Tomas Hala]

Hi all,

I do not know how to activate nested quotation together with left hanging
punctuation at all levels.

%% MWE:
\setupdelimitedtext[quotation:1][method=font]%% cmd #1
\setupdelimitedtext[quotation:2][method=font]%% cmd #2
\setupdelimitedtext[quotation][method=font]  %% cmd #3
%%
\setupdelimitedtext[quotation:1][left={\symbol[leftquotation]},right={\symbol[rightquotation]}]
\setupdelimitedtext[quotation:2][left={\symbol[leftquote]},right={\symbol[rightquote]}]
\setupalign[hz,hanging] %normal,%nothz,nohz,
\definefontfeature[default][default][protrusion=quality,expansion=quality]

\starttext\showframe
\quotation{asdaf\quotation{asdfasfd} adfasdfasf}

\quotation{asdaf\crlf\quotation{asdfasfd} adfasdfasf}
\stoptext


Without any command (#1--#3):
Quotation symbols are ok but without hanging.

With cmd #1:
Quotation symbols are ok but hanging is only the first level.

With cmd #2:
Quotation symbols are at both levels the same (which is wrong) and moreover 
hanging is only the second level.

With cmd #3:
Quotation symbols are at both levels the same (which is wrong) but both levels 
is hanging.

Which definition is missing or wrong?

Best wishes,

Tomáš

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Re: [NTG-context] Quotation dash issues with semantic markup

[Hans Hagen]

On 1/17/2020 8:11 PM, Wolfgang Schuster wrote:

It's possible to use leaders to remove multiple dashes and also dashes 
at the end of a paragraph but this will only work for the PDF. A 
limitation is that you can't use the existing \speech and \aside 
commands because they use groups which prevents the removal of unwanted 
dashes.
there's another trick that we can use ... i'll send you (ws) something 
to play with as we (you) might integrate it in the speech handler somehow


Hans

-
  Hans Hagen | PRAGMA ADE
  Ridderstraat 27 | 8061 GH Hasselt | The Netherlands
   tel: 038 477 53 69 | www.pragma-ade.nl | www.pragma-pod.nl
-
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Re: [NTG-context] Quotation dash issues with semantic markup

[Wolfgang Schuster]

Hans Hagen schrieb am 30.12.2019 um 10:19:

On 12/30/2019 5:03 AM, Sam May wrote:


\setuplanguage[en]
[leftquotation=\quotedash~,
rightquotation=~\quotedash,
leftsentence=\removeunwantedspaces~\endash\space,
midsentence=\removeunwantedspaces~\endash\space,
%    leftsentence=\endash~,
%    midsentence=~\endash,
rightsentence=~\endash]
\define\quotedash{\emdash\endash}

%\setupbackend[export=yes]

\starttext

\startsection[title=Introduction]
Any of you able to help me get my quotation dashes into line when 
automatically
inserted by the semantic commands?  I'm sure a number of you look at 
this style
and cringe, but \cap{A.} I'm not looking for grammatical input, and 
\cap{B.}
I'm intending this for a non-English language where the quotation dash 
(though

still not most common) isn't as out of place.
\stopsection

\startsection[title=Desired rendering]
\quotedash~Speech should always have a dash at the start, but none at 
the end

of a paragraph.

\quotedash~Dialog asides should not duplicate dashes,~\endash\ he
said.~\quotedash\ Also, this doesn't reflect the spacing mentioned in 
section

\in[extra].  \quotedash~nor, as above, add ones at the end of paragraphs.
\endash~he continued.
\stopsection

\startsection[title=Actual output]
\speech{Speech should always have a dash at the start, but none at the 
end of a

paragraph.}

\speech{Dialog asides should not duplicate dashes, \aside{he said.}} 
Also, note
the spacing isn't removed despite \type{\removeunwantedspaces}, but 
instead

duplicated.  \speech{nor, as above, add ones at the end of paragraphs.
\aside{he continued.}}
\stopsection

\startsection[title=Additional considerations and 
observations,reference=extra]
It would also be nice if a quote ending in a period carried the 
\quote{broad}

spacing to the other side of the (ending) quote dash |=| the dash before
\quote{Also} above would be packed on the left and broad on the right. 
I know

this might be a lot trickier to code, and only consider it a bonus.

The issue with \type{\removeunwantedspaces} only seems to affect the 
command
forms.  When inserted directly |<| as here |>| the spacing acts as 
desired in
the \cap{PDF} (as expected, the \cap{XML} doesn't understand the 
order).  Also,

the right \type{|>|} doesn't require either of the explicit spacing
instructions (beyond being non-breaking) while the others do; try 
switching the

commented lines and re-rendering.

The quotation dash itself only \emph{looks} as I want it; when I 
highlight and
copy the text or export it to the \cap{XML} backend, it's still two 
dashes next
to each other.  Instead, I'd like it to be the Unicode bar U+2015.  
I'm not
sure if \TEX/\LUATEX\ allows that difference between appearance and 
interaction
(I do know \cap{PDF} does), so if there's some way of adding a new 
glyph to the
font |<| one that mimics the other dashes even if the font changes |>| 
I'd love
to actually use the proper codepoint.  As is, that doesn't work in the 
standard

font(s): [\char"2015].
\stopsection

\stoptext

I bet that Wolfgang has the answers to the speech setup so I'll do the 
font part.


It's possible to use leaders to remove multiple dashes and also dashes 
at the end of a paragraph but this will only work for the PDF. A 
limitation is that you can't use the existing \speech and \aside 
commands because they use groups which prevents the removal of unwanted 
dashes.


\unprotect

\def\speech_dash
  {\setbox\scratchbox\hbox{\texthorizontalbar\space}%
   \leaders\copy\scratchbox\hskip\wd\scratchbox}

\def\speech_left
  {\ifhmode
 \removeunwantedspaces
   \else
 \dontleavehmode
   \fi
   \space\speech_dash}

\def\speech_right
  {\removeunwantedspaces
   \space\speech_dash}

%\define[1]\speech
%  {\speech_left#1\speech_right}

\unexpanded\def\speech
  {\speech_left
   \bgroup
   \aftergroup\speech_right
   \let\next=}

\def\aside_dash
  {\setbox\scratchbox\hbox{\endash\space}%
   \leaders\copy\scratchbox\hskip\wd\scratchbox}

\def\aside_left
  {\ifhmode
 \removeunwantedspaces
   \else
 \dontleavehmode
   \fi
   \space\aside_dash}

\def\aside_right
  {\space\aside_dash}

%\define[1]\aside
%  {\aside_left#1\aside_right}

\unexpanded\def\aside
  {\aside_left
   \bgroup
   \aftergroup\aside_right
   \let\next=}

\protect

\setupbodyfont[pagella]

\starttext

\speech{first speech} \speech{second speech}

\speech{first speech} no speech \speech{second speech}

\speech{first speech\aside{aside}} \speech{second speech}

\speech{speech \aside{aside}} no speech

\stoptext

Wolfgang

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Re: [NTG-context] Quotation dash issues with semantic markup

[Hans Hagen]

On 12/30/2019 5:03 AM, Sam May wrote:


\setuplanguage[en]
[leftquotation=\quotedash~,
rightquotation=~\quotedash,
leftsentence=\removeunwantedspaces~\endash\space,
midsentence=\removeunwantedspaces~\endash\space,
%   leftsentence=\endash~,
%   midsentence=~\endash,
rightsentence=~\endash]
\define\quotedash{\emdash\endash}

%\setupbackend[export=yes]

\starttext

\startsection[title=Introduction]
Any of you able to help me get my quotation dashes into line when 
automatically
inserted by the semantic commands?  I'm sure a number of you look at 
this style
and cringe, but \cap{A.} I'm not looking for grammatical input, and 
\cap{B.}
I'm intending this for a non-English language where the quotation dash 
(though

still not most common) isn't as out of place.
\stopsection

\startsection[title=Desired rendering]
\quotedash~Speech should always have a dash at the start, but none at 
the end

of a paragraph.

\quotedash~Dialog asides should not duplicate dashes,~\endash\ he
said.~\quotedash\ Also, this doesn't reflect the spacing mentioned in 
section

\in[extra].  \quotedash~nor, as above, add ones at the end of paragraphs.
\endash~he continued.
\stopsection

\startsection[title=Actual output]
\speech{Speech should always have a dash at the start, but none at the 
end of a

paragraph.}

\speech{Dialog asides should not duplicate dashes, \aside{he said.}} 
Also, note

the spacing isn't removed despite \type{\removeunwantedspaces}, but instead
duplicated.  \speech{nor, as above, add ones at the end of paragraphs.
\aside{he continued.}}
\stopsection

\startsection[title=Additional considerations and 
observations,reference=extra]
It would also be nice if a quote ending in a period carried the 
\quote{broad}

spacing to the other side of the (ending) quote dash |=| the dash before
\quote{Also} above would be packed on the left and broad on the right. 
I know

this might be a lot trickier to code, and only consider it a bonus.

The issue with \type{\removeunwantedspaces} only seems to affect the 
command
forms.  When inserted directly |<| as here |>| the spacing acts as 
desired in
the \cap{PDF} (as expected, the \cap{XML} doesn't understand the order). 
 Also,

the right \type{|>|} doesn't require either of the explicit spacing
instructions (beyond being non-breaking) while the others do; try 
switching the

commented lines and re-rendering.

The quotation dash itself only \emph{looks} as I want it; when I 
highlight and
copy the text or export it to the \cap{XML} backend, it's still two 
dashes next

to each other.  Instead, I'd like it to be the Unicode bar U+2015.  I'm not
sure if \TEX/\LUATEX\ allows that difference between appearance and 
interaction
(I do know \cap{PDF} does), so if there's some way of adding a new glyph 
to the
font |<| one that mimics the other dashes even if the font changes |>| 
I'd love
to actually use the proper codepoint.  As is, that doesn't work in the 
standard

font(s): [\char"2015].
\stopsection

\stoptext

I bet that Wolfgang has the answers to the speech setup so I'll do the 
font part. Assuming that you use context lmtx (the luametatex branch), 
you can use some of the new metafun magic.


\startMPcalculation{simplefun}

vardef QuotationDash =
draw image (
interim linecap := squared ;
save l ; l := 0.2 ;
draw (l/2,2) -- (15-l/2,2) withpen pencircle scaled l ;
)
enddef ;

lmt_registerglyphs [
name = "symbols",
units= 10,
usecolor = true,
width= 15,
height   = 2.1,
depth= 0,
] ;

lmt_registerglyph [ category = "symbols", unicode = "0x2015", code 
= "QuotationDash ;" ] ;


\stopMPcalculation

\definefontfeature[default][default][metapost=symbols]

% \showglyphs

\starttext

\startlines
xx\endashxx
xx\emdashxx
xx\endash\emdash xx
xx\char"2015 xx
\stoplines

\stoptext

Keep in mind that when you use for instance pagella, that there already 
that glyph.


Hans


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[NTG-context] Quotation dash issues with semantic markup

[Sam May]

Any of you able to help me get my quotation dashes into line when 
automatically inserted by the semantic commands?  I'm sure a number of you 
look at this style and cringe, but A. I'm not looking for grammatical input, 
and B. I'm intending this for a non-English language where the quotation dash 
(though still not most common) isn't as out of place.

See attachment for actual examples, but I'm looking for a dash at each side of 
the quotation, /except/ at the very end of a paragraph.  I additionally want 
dialogue tags (via \aside, and located within quotations) to not print their 
surrounding decoration if they're directly next to the larger dash of the 
quotation.  Unfortunately, the only way I can think of doing the first is by 
checking if the next token's \par, and that gets thrown off by the internal 
logic of \quotation; I'm not at all sure how to start going about the asides.

It would also be nice if a quote ending in a period carried the 'broad' 
spacing to the other side of the (ending) quote dash -- the dash before 'Also' 
in the examples would be packed on the left and broad on the right.  I know 
this might be a lot trickier to code, and only consider it a bonus.

An additional issue with \removeunwantedspaces only seems to affect the 
command forms.  When inserted directly, the spacing acts as desired in the PDF 
(as expected, the XML doesn't understand the order).  Also, the right |>| 
doesn't require either of the explicit spacing instructions (beyond being 
non-breaking) while the others do.

The quotation dash itself only /looks/ as I want it; when I highlight and copy 
the text or export it to the XML backend, it's still two dashes next to each 
other.  Instead, I'd like it to be the Unicode bar U+2015.  I'm not sure if 
TEX/LUATEX allows that difference between appearance and interaction (I do 
know PDF does), so if there's some way of adding a new glyph to the font -- 
one that mimics the other dashes even if the font changes -- I'd love to 
actually use the proper codepoint.  As is, that doesn't work in the standard 
font(s).

Thanks for the help!  I know it's quite a bit of an ask.

Sam


exmp-dialogue.tex
Description: TeX document


signature.asc
Description: PGP signature
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Re: [NTG-context] Very strange behaviour of itemize, \quotation and \dots

[Hans Hagen]

On 12/17/2019 10:04 AM, Otared Kavian wrote:

Hi Hans,

Last week I sent you a PDF showing a strange behaviour of \startitemize and 
\quotation in LMTX. I finally could nail down the origin of the problem: it 
seems that if the command
  
	\setupsynctex[state=start]


is present twice at the beginning of the document, then the combination \item 
and \quotation and \dots prevents the item to be shown correctly…
(In my case I was typesetting a document with the above command in which a file 
containing it also was \input).

Below is the minimal example and its PDF.

you can check the (lmtx) beta (new luametatex bin etc)

Hans

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Re: [NTG-context] Very strange behaviour of itemize, \quotation and \dots

[Hans Hagen]

On 12/17/2019 10:04 AM, Otared Kavian wrote:

Hi Hans,

Last week I sent you a PDF showing a strange behaviour of \startitemize and 
\quotation in LMTX. I finally could nail down the origin of the problem: it 
seems that if the command
  
	\setupsynctex[state=start]


is present twice at the beginning of the document, then the combination \item 
and \quotation and \dots prevents the item to be shown correctly…
(In my case I was typesetting a document with the above command in which a file 
containing it also was \input).

Below is the minimal example and its PDF.

Best regards: OK
% begin file: bug-itemize-lmtx.tex

\setupsynctex[stat=start]

\setupsynctex[state=start] % if this is removed then everything is fine…

\setupquotation[style=italic,left={«~},right={~»}]

\showframe
\starttext

\startitemize[n]

\dorecurse{4}{\item This item \quotation{is shown correcly\dots}

\item This item \quotation{\dots is not shown correctly}}

\stopitemize

\stoptext
% end file: bug-itemize-lmtx.tex
took me a while to figure out that it is actually an engine issue 
(obscured in luatex but exposed in luametatex)


fixed in next beta

Hans

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[NTG-context] Very strange behaviour of itemize, \quotation and \dots

[Otared Kavian]

Hi Hans,

Last week I sent you a PDF showing a strange behaviour of \startitemize and 
\quotation in LMTX. I finally could nail down the origin of the problem: it 
seems that if the command
 
\setupsynctex[state=start]

is present twice at the beginning of the document, then the combination \item 
and \quotation and \dots prevents the item to be shown correctly…
(In my case I was typesetting a document with the above command in which a file 
containing it also was \input).

Below is the minimal example and its PDF.

Best regards: OK
% begin file: bug-itemize-lmtx.tex

\setupsynctex[stat=start]

\setupsynctex[state=start] % if this is removed then everything is fine…

\setupquotation[style=italic,left={«~},right={~»}]

\showframe
\starttext

\startitemize[n]

\dorecurse{4}{\item This item \quotation{is shown correcly\dots} 

\item This item \quotation{\dots is not shown correctly}}

\stopitemize

\stoptext
% end file: bug-itemize-lmtx.tex



bug-itemize-lmtx.pdf
Description: Adobe PDF document
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Re: [NTG-context] Difference between direct use of quotation marks and \quotation

[Henning Hraban Ramm]

> Am 2019-11-24 um 22:22 schrieb denis.maier.li...@mailbox.org:
> 
>> Wolfgang Schuster  hat am 23. November 
>> 2019 um 10:06 geschrieben:
>> 
>> 
>> denis.maier.li...@mailbox.org schrieb am 23.11.2019 um 00:43:
>>> Hi,
>>> 
>>> is it possible to enable hanging punctuation only on the right margin? I 
>>> think that's the way the microtype package does that in LaTeX, but I don't 
>>> know how to replicate this behavior in ConTeXt.
>> 
>> \setupfontprotrusion [quality] [left=0]
>> 
>> Wolfgang
>> 
> 
> Cool. Thank you.
> But, where could I have found this information myself? There is nothing on 
> the wiki about this command.

Maybe in the source?
https://source.contextgarden.net/tex/context/base/mkiv/hand-ini.mkiv

Now there is: https://wiki.contextgarden.net/Command/setupfontprotrusion


Greetlings, Hraban
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Re: [NTG-context] Difference between direct use of quotation marks and \quotation

[denis . maier . lists]

> Wolfgang Schuster  hat am 23. November 
> 2019 um 10:06 geschrieben:
> 
> 
> denis.maier.li...@mailbox.org schrieb am 23.11.2019 um 00:43:
> > Hi,
> >
> > is it possible to enable hanging punctuation only on the right margin? I 
> > think that's the way the microtype package does that in LaTeX, but I don't 
> > know how to replicate this behavior in ConTeXt.
> 
> \setupfontprotrusion [quality] [left=0]
> 
> Wolfgang
> 

Cool. Thank you.
But, where could I have found this information myself? There is nothing on the 
wiki about this command.

Best,
Denis
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Re: [NTG-context] Difference between direct use of quotation marks and \quotation

[Wolfgang Schuster]

denis.maier.li...@mailbox.org schrieb am 23.11.2019 um 00:43:

Hi,

is it possible to enable hanging punctuation only on the right margin? I think 
that's the way the microtype package does that in LaTeX, but I don't know how 
to replicate this behavior in ConTeXt.


\setupfontprotrusion [quality] [left=0]

Wolfgang

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Re: [NTG-context] Difference between direct use of quotation marks and \quotation

[denis . maier . lists]

Hi,

is it possible to enable hanging punctuation only on the right margin? I think 
that's the way the microtype package does that in LaTeX, but I don't know how 
to replicate this behavior in ConTeXt.

Best,
Denis

> denis.ma...@mailbox.org hat am 23. November 2019 um 00:27 geschrieben:
> 
> 
> Hi,
> 
> is it possible to enable hanging punctuation only on the right margin? I 
> think that's the way the microtype package does that in LaTeX, but I don't 
> know how to replicate this behavior in ConTeXt.
> 
> Best,
> Denis
> 
> -Ursprüngliche Nachricht-
> Von: ntg-context  Im Auftrag von Wolfgang 
> Schuster
> Gesendet: Freitag, 22. November 2019 19:04
> An: mailing list for ConTeXt users 
> Betreff: Re: [NTG-context] Difference between direct use of quotation marks 
> and \quotation
> 
> Tomas Hala schrieb am 22.11.2019 um 18:55:
> > Hi all,
> >
> > I have got two "same" documents which differ at the left side when the 
> > hanging punctuation has been enabled.
> > The difference is in use of quotation marks. (It seems as a language
> > and font independent problem.)
> >
> > How can I persuade macro \quotation to move the punctuation outside the 
> > frame?
> \setupdelimitedtext[quotation][method=font]
> 
> Wolfgang
> 
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Re: [NTG-context] Difference between direct use of quotation marks and \quotation

[Tomas Hala]

Hi Wolfgang, 

great! Thank you very much.

Tomáš 

Fri, Nov 22, 2019 ve 07:03:42PM +0100 Wolfgang Schuster napsal(a):
# Tomas Hala schrieb am 22.11.2019 um 18:55:
# >Hi all,
# >
# >I have got two "same" documents which differ at the left side when the 
hanging punctuation has been enabled.
# >The difference is in use of quotation marks. (It seems as a language and 
font independent problem.)
# >
# >How can I persuade macro \quotation to move the punctuation outside the 
frame?
# \setupdelimitedtext[quotation][method=font]
# 
# Wolfgang
# 
# 
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 Tomáš Hála

Mendelova univerzita, Provozně ekonomická fakulta, ústav informatiky
Zemědělská 1, CZ-613 00 Brno,  tel. +420 545 13 22 28

http://akela.mendelu.cz/~thala
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Re: [NTG-context] Difference between direct use of quotation marks and \quotation

[Wolfgang Schuster]

Tomas Hala schrieb am 22.11.2019 um 18:55:

Hi all,

I have got two "same" documents which differ at the left side when the hanging 
punctuation has been enabled.
The difference is in use of quotation marks. (It seems as a language and font 
independent problem.)

How can I persuade macro \quotation to move the punctuation outside the frame?

\setupdelimitedtext[quotation][method=font]

Wolfgang

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[NTG-context] Difference between direct use of quotation marks and \quotation

[Tomas Hala]

Hi all,

I have got two "same" documents which differ at the left side when the hanging 
punctuation has been enabled. 
The difference is in use of quotation marks. (It seems as a language and font 
independent problem.)

How can I persuade macro \quotation to move the punctuation outside the frame?

Best wishes,

Tomáš

%%% MWE:
\setupalign[hz,hanging]
\definefontfeature  [default]   [default]  [protrusion=quality, 
expansion=quality]

\starttext\showframe
one \hfill two \crlf „three“ four \par
one \hfill two \crlf \quotation{three} four
\stoptext

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Re: [NTG-context] Quotation marks

[Atsuhito Kohda]

Hi Wolfgang, thanks for your reply.

You are right.  I shoud say "looks correct" or something like that.

Best regards,
Atsuhito Kohda
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Re: [NTG-context] Quotation marks

[Atsuhito Kohda]

Hi all, thanks for all replies.

> indeed. `` and '' are (in tex) pseudo ligatures and not really a
> portable standard, certainly not now that we have utf8 as input (in a
> similar fashion users who need accented characters will not use \"u and
> \'a any more)

In fact, I don't know how to input left, right double quotation
marks and accented characters directly with keyboard.
It is easier for me to input {``}, {''} and \"u etc than
to input utf8 characters with keyboard.
I don't say to make tex-style ligature available by default
but only to make it available under an appropriate setup.
Even this is not suitable for ConTeXt?

Best regards,
Atsuhito Kohda
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Re: [NTG-context] Quotation marks

[Wolfgang Schuster]

Atsuhito Kohda schrieb am 20.07.2019 um 01:58:

Hi all,
I think in the same way as Dmitry.
It might be obsolete but, as far as I searched, under the setup
\definefontfeature [texligatures] [tlig=yes]
\feature[+][texligatures]
{''} produces right quotation correctly but left quotation seems
not correct (I don't know why).

You're wrong here because ' is replaced with a apostrophe and what
you see are just two and the have a different space between then than
a normal double quotation mark.

 begin example
\starttext

\switchtobodyfont[100pt]

“

”

’

''

\stoptext
 end example

Wolfgang
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Re: [NTG-context] Quotation marks

[Denis Maier]

Another option: Use the fabulous csquotes-package and map \quotation to
\enquote:

=>
```
\usepackage{csquotes}
\let\quotation=\enquote
```

Denis

Am Sa., 20. Juli 2019 um 02:57 Uhr schrieb Hans Hagen :

> On 7/20/2019 2:07 AM, Alan Braslau wrote:
> > On Sat, 20 Jul 2019 08:58:27 +0900
> > Atsuhito Kohda  wrote:
> >
> >> It is true quotes are language dependent but sometime we need
> >> language independent quotes. So it will be  nice if we can use
> >> {``}, {''} and \quotation at the same time
> >
> > “”
>
> indeed. `` and '' are (in tex) pseudo ligatures and not really a
> portable standard, certainly not now that we have utf8 as input (in a
> similar fashion users who need accented characters will not use \"u and
> \'a any more)
>
> Hans
>
> -
>Hans Hagen | PRAGMA ADE
>Ridderstraat 27 | 8061 GH Hasselt | The Netherlands
> tel: 038 477 53 69 | www.pragma-ade.nl | www.pragma-pod.nl
> -
>
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Re: [NTG-context] Quotation marks

[Hans Hagen]

On 7/20/2019 2:07 AM, Alan Braslau wrote:

On Sat, 20 Jul 2019 08:58:27 +0900
Atsuhito Kohda  wrote:


It is true quotes are language dependent but sometime we need
language independent quotes. So it will be  nice if we can use
{``}, {''} and \quotation at the same time


“”


indeed. `` and '' are (in tex) pseudo ligatures and not really a 
portable standard, certainly not now that we have utf8 as input (in a 
similar fashion users who need accented characters will not use \"u and 
\'a any more)


Hans

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Re: [NTG-context] Quotation marks

[Alan Braslau]

On Sat, 20 Jul 2019 08:58:27 +0900
Atsuhito Kohda  wrote:

> It is true quotes are language dependent but sometime we need
> language independent quotes. So it will be  nice if we can use
> {``}, {''} and \quotation at the same time

“”
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Re: [NTG-context] Quotation marks

[Atsuhito Kohda]

Hi all,
I think in the same way as Dmitry.
It might be obsolete but, as far as I searched, under the setup
\definefontfeature [texligatures] [tlig=yes]
\feature[+][texligatures]
{''} produces right quotation correctly but left quotation seems
not correct (I don't know why).

It is true quotes are language dependent but sometime we need
language independent quotes. So it will be  nice if we can use
{``}, {''} and \quotation at the same time.

Best regards,
Atsuhito Kohda
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Re: [NTG-context] Quotation marks

[Hans Hagen]

On 7/19/2019 6:21 PM, Alan Braslau wrote:

On Fri, 19 Jul 2019 18:54:08 +0300
Dmitry Starostin  wrote:


I understand it might have been deliberately and for various reasons,
but ConTeXt has no analogue for {``} and {''} for quotes. \quotation
is a replacement, but it is awkward if you write a draft in ConTeXt
and make the final variant in pdfLatex. Is there a ready solution for
the quotation marks as marked out in the text? Or one needs to write
his own macro for this?


Write a macro in pdfLatex.

(You can always use utf-8:
“”
«  »
„“
etc. as appropriate)

Quotes are rather language dependent so therefore we use \quotation.

As Alan says, you can always define a macro for latex:

\def\quotation#1{``#1''}

doing that for context is not a good idea. (Also because future versions 
might issue an error when such core macros are redefined.)


Hans

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Re: [NTG-context] Quotation marks

[Alan Braslau]

On Fri, 19 Jul 2019 18:54:08 +0300
Dmitry Starostin  wrote:

> I understand it might have been deliberately and for various reasons,
> but ConTeXt has no analogue for {``} and {''} for quotes. \quotation
> is a replacement, but it is awkward if you write a draft in ConTeXt
> and make the final variant in pdfLatex. Is there a ready solution for
> the quotation marks as marked out in the text? Or one needs to write
> his own macro for this?

Write a macro in pdfLatex.

(You can always use utf-8:
“”
«  »
„“
etc. as appropriate)

Alan
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[NTG-context] Quotation marks

[Dmitry Starostin]

I understand it might have been deliberately and for various reasons, but
ConTeXt has no analogue for {``} and {''} for quotes. \quotation is a
replacement, but it is awkward if you write a draft in ConTeXt and make the
final variant in pdfLatex. Is there a ready solution for the quotation
marks as marked out in the text? Or one needs to write his own macro for
this?
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Re: [NTG-context] Quotation with method=font produces error

[Pablo Rodriguez]

On 10/24/2017 09:51 PM, Christoph Reller wrote:
> On Tue, 24 Oct 2017 18:31:24 +0200 Pablo Rodriguez wrote:
> [...]
> Thank you Pablo for pointing me to the developer's mailing list. I have
> not thought about searching through that. So, this is good news for me
> and I will wait for the fix.

Christoph,

I’m subscribed to that list and I just saw the message.

Pablo
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Re: [NTG-context] Quotation with method=font produces error

[Pablo Rodriguez]

On 10/24/2017 07:05 AM, Christoph Reller wrote:
> [...]
> Thank you Pablo for confirming this!
> 
> Does anybody know whether this is a bug or whether it is the wrong way
> to enable font-based kerning for quotations?

Hi Christoph,

from the devel mailing list
(https://mailman.ntg.nl/pipermail/dev-context/2017/003422.html): this is
a bug and it there is a fix for it.

It will be applied in one of the next betas (but you can patch your
ConTeXt distribution yourself).

I hope it helps,

Pablo
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Re: [NTG-context] Quotation with method=font produces error

[Christoph Reller]

Mon, 23 Oct 2017 17:21:25 +0200, Pablo Rodriguez <oi...@gmx.es> wrote:
> On 10/23/2017 09:03 AM, Christoph Reller wrote:
>> [...]
>> Could you please confirm (or deny) that the following MWE produces an
>> error with the currently latest version of ConTeXt:
>>
>> \setupquotation[method=font]
>> \starttext
>> \quotation{A}
>> \stoptext
>
> Hi Christoph,
>
> I’m afraid it fails:
> [...]

Thank you Pablo for confirming this!

Does anybody know whether this is a bug or whether it is the wrong way
to enable font-based kerning for quotations?

Cheers,
Christoph
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Re: [NTG-context] Quotation with method=font produces error

[Pablo Rodriguez]

On 10/23/2017 09:03 AM, Christoph Reller wrote:
> [...]
> Could you please confirm (or deny) that the following MWE produces an
> error with the currently latest version of ConTeXt:
> 
> \setupquotation[method=font]
> \starttext
> \quotation{A}
> \stoptext

Hi Christoph,

I’m afraid it fails:

tex error   > tex error on line 3 in file a.tex: ! Extra }, or
forgotten \endgroup
l.3 \quotation{A}
 1 \setupquotation[method=font]
 2 \starttext
 3 >>  \quotation{A}
 4 \stoptext

Just in case it helps,

Pablo
-- 
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Re: [NTG-context] Quotation with method=font produces error

[Christoph Reller]

On Thu, Oct 19, 2017 at 1:59 PM Christoph Reller <christoph.rel...@gmail.com>
wrote:

> On Thu, 19 Oct 2017 11:53:56 +0200 Floris van Manen <v...@klankschap.nl
> > wrote:
>
>>
>> > On 19 Oct 2017, at 11:33, Christoph Reller <christoph.rel...@gmail.com>
>> wrote:
>> >
>> > \setupquotation[method=font]
>>
>> what is the intension of the method=font ?
>>
>>
> Thank you for asking. Consider the following MWE:
>
> \setupbodyfont[cambria]
> %\setupquotation[method=font]
> \starttext
> \quotation{A}\crlf
> “A”
> \stoptext
>
> In the output rendering of the above (see attachment), the first line
> lacks kerning between the double quotes and the letter A. This can be
> enabled by saying \setupquotation[method=font]. At least that is what I
> know about this option. Am I wrong? Is there a different option for
> enabling this?
>

Dear Floris (or anybody from the list),

Could you please confirm (or deny) that the following MWE produces an error
with the currently latest version of ConTeXt:

\setupquotation[method=font]
\starttext
\quotation{A}
\stoptext

Thank you,
Christoph
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Re: [NTG-context] Quotation with method=font produces error

[Christoph Reller]

On Thu, 19 Oct 2017 11:53:56 +0200 Floris van Manen <v...@klankschap.nl
> wrote:

>
> > On 19 Oct 2017, at 11:33, Christoph Reller <christoph.rel...@gmail.com>
> wrote:
> >
> > \setupquotation[method=font]
>
> what is the intension of the method=font ?
>
>
Hi Floris,

Thank you for asking. Consider the following MWE:

\setupbodyfont[cambria]
%\setupquotation[method=font]
\starttext
\quotation{A}\crlf
“A”
\stoptext

In the output rendering of the above (see attachment), the first line lacks
kerning between the double quotes and the letter A. This can be enabled by
saying \setupquotation[method=font]. At least that is what I know about
this option. Am I wrong? Is there a different option for enabling this?

Regards,
Christoph

PS: Sorry for the wrong subject line of my previous email. It is corrected
now.
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[NTG-context] Quotation with method=font produces error

[Christoph Reller]

Hi,

In previous versions of ConTeXt the following MWE worked:

\setupquotation[method=font]
\starttext
\quotation{A}
\stoptext

In more recent versions, the above produces an error:

! Extra }, or forgotten \endgroup
l.3 \quotation{A}

Is this a bug?

Regards,
Christoph
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Re: [NTG-context] references.bookmarks.preroll and quotation

[Hans Hagen]

On 12/21/2016 8:28 AM, Christoph Reller wrote:

Hi,

I have the following MWE:

\setupinteraction[state=start]
\placebookmarks[chapter]
\enabledirectives[references.bookmarks.preroll]
\starttext
\startchapter[title=B \quotation{C} D]
  \input ward
\stopchapter
\stoptext

The generated bookmark has wrongly placed spaces:

B“ C ” D

Without the directive references.bookmarks.preroll, the bookmark is:

B "C" D

I need this directive because in titles I use macros that use
\autoinsertnextspace.

Is this a bug?

Any feedback is welcome.


fixed in next beta

Hans

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[NTG-context] references.bookmarks.preroll and quotation

[Christoph Reller]

Hi,

I have the following MWE:

\setupinteraction[state=start]
\placebookmarks[chapter]
\enabledirectives[references.bookmarks.preroll]
\starttext
\startchapter[title=B \quotation{C} D]
  \input ward
\stopchapter
\stoptext

The generated bookmark has wrongly placed spaces:

B“ C ” D

Without the directive references.bookmarks.preroll, the bookmark is:

B "C" D

I need this directive because in titles I use macros that use
\autoinsertnextspace.

Is this a bug?

Any feedback is welcome.

Cheers,
Christoph
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Re: [NTG-context] Problem with the environment {\quotation}

[Fabrice Couvreur]

thanks Aditya
Fabrice

2016-07-21 2:05 GMT+02:00 Aditya Mahajan <adit...@umich.edu>:

> On Thu, 21 Jul 2016, Fabrice Couvreur wrote:
>
> Hello,
>> With the latest version of Standalone Context, environment {\quotation}
>> causes a compilation error but with texlive 2016, no problem.
>> thanks,
>> Fabrice
>>
>>
>> \mainlanguage[fr]
>>
>> \starttext
>>
>> Seuls les nombres vont servir aux calculs, le gérant peut donc résumer ce
>> tableau à l'aide du seul tableau de nombres suivant, appelé {\quotation la
>> matrice \math{A}}.
>>
>> \stoptext
>>
>
> Use \quotation{} rather than {\quotation ...}
>
> Aditya
>
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Re: [NTG-context] Problem with the environment {\quotation}

[Aditya Mahajan]

On Thu, 21 Jul 2016, Fabrice Couvreur wrote:


Hello,
With the latest version of Standalone Context, environment {\quotation}
causes a compilation error but with texlive 2016, no problem.
thanks,
Fabrice


\mainlanguage[fr]

\starttext

Seuls les nombres vont servir aux calculs, le gérant peut donc résumer ce
tableau à l'aide du seul tableau de nombres suivant, appelé {\quotation la
matrice \math{A}}.

\stoptext


Use \quotation{} rather than {\quotation ...}

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[NTG-context] Problem with the environment {\quotation}

[Fabrice Couvreur]

Hello,
With the latest version of Standalone Context, environment {\quotation}
causes a compilation error but with texlive 2016, no problem.
thanks,
Fabrice


\mainlanguage[fr]

\starttext

Seuls les nombres vont servir aux calculs, le gérant peut donc résumer ce
tableau à l'aide du seul tableau de nombres suivant, appelé {\quotation la
matrice \math{A}}.

\stoptext



tex error   > tex error on line 3 in file /home/fab/ntg47.tex: ! Extra
}, or forgotten \endgroup

l.3 ...ant, appelé {\quotation la matrice \math{A}}
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Re: [NTG-context] kerning with \quotation

[Schmitz Thomas A.]

> On 06 Mar 2016, at 15:56, Hans Hagen  wrote:
> 
> \setupdelimitedtext
>  [method=font]

Excellent - thanks Hans!

Thomas
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Re: [NTG-context] kerning with \quotation

[Hans Hagen]

On 3/6/2016 2:19 PM, Schmitz Thomas A. wrote:

Hi all,

short example in extra big size to make the effect visible:

\setupbodyfont [termes,48pt]

\mainlanguage [de]

\starttext

„Vater“

\quotation{Vater}

\stoptext

In the first line, the character „ has a bit of kerning with the following V 
(could be even more, to my taste). With \quotation, the gap between them is 
very large. Could the kerning be applied in this case too? Or is it better to 
use the raw „? (After I have taught emacs to auto-insert \quotation{ and } when 
I type a quotation mark…)


\setupdelimitedtext
  [method=font]



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[NTG-context] kerning with \quotation

[Schmitz Thomas A.]

Hi all,

short example in extra big size to make the effect visible:

\setupbodyfont [termes,48pt]

\mainlanguage [de]

\starttext

„Vater“

\quotation{Vater}

\stoptext

In the first line, the character „ has a bit of kerning with the following V 
(could be even more, to my taste). With \quotation, the gap between them is 
very large. Could the kerning be applied in this case too? Or is it better to 
use the raw „? (After I have taught emacs to auto-insert \quotation{ and } when 
I type a quotation mark…)

Thomas

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Re: [NTG-context] Quotation blocs with repetition symbol in the left column

[Stéphane Goujet]

On Fri, 28 Mar 2014, Stéphane Goujet wrote:


 I am trying to typeset old books and I chose to keep close to the
original typography.
=
1) It must work when starting from a new line as well as when starting
from the middle of the current line. 2 different environments are
allowed.

2) The environnement is wrapped in guillemets.

3a) There must be no extra space before the opening guillemet when
starting from the middle of the current line.

3b) The must be no extra space after the closing guillemet.

4) The quote repetition symbol must appear in the beginning of every
line, except the first one.

5) Paragraphs should be automatically indented. Manual indentation is
bearable.

6a) When there is an indentation, the quote repetition symbol must be
indented too.

6b) When the bloc starts on a new line, the opening guillemet must be
indented.

7) The quote repetition symbol must be a setup parameter of the
environment, or easily modifiable within the environment definition.
(in the example images, it is a *closing* guillemet, but in other books
it can be an *opening* guillemet).

8) This environment must work within footnotes too.
=


  I just fortuitously learned on Luatex mailing list that it only took 
this command : \localleftbox{}


  So, the quotation block would be :


\define\qbopen{«}
\define\qbrep{»}
\define\qbclose{»}
\definestartstop
   [bloccite]
   [before=\qbopen~\begingroup\localleftbox{\qbrep~},
after=\endgroup~\qbclose]


  Might need a bit of kerning to have all spaces look good, but basically, 
this is it. Just this...



Goodbye,
  Stéphane Goujet.___
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Re: [NTG-context] can not get the quotation marks from the fallback fonts

[Wolfgang Schuster]

Am 08.01.2014 um 08:57 schrieb Li Yanrui (李延瑞) liyanrui...@gmail.com:

 Thank you, Wolfgang. I have find the new simplefonts can solve these problems 
 after i posted that mail. This is a good news for me athough it appeared for 
 a long time.

The \definefallbackfamily uses “force=yes” and “check=no” as default values for 
the \definefontfallback command unless you set different values for both keys.

Wolfgang
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[NTG-context] can not get the quotation marks from the fallback fonts

[李延瑞]

Hi,

i find the quotation marks in those chinese fallback fonts can not work as
before. They always be replaced with the latin fonts. please see the
following example:

\definefontsynonym[pagella][name:texgyrepagellaregular]
\definefontfallback[song][name:adobesongstd][0x00400-0x2FA1F]
\definefontsynonym[fbsong][pagella][fallbacks=song]
\definefont[newsong][fbsong]

\starttext
\newsong 中文的\quotation{引号}。
\stoptext

i have another question, when i make texgyrepagellaregular as the fallback
font for adobesongstd, it can not work. see the following example:

\definefontsynonym[song][name:adobesongstd]
\definefontfallback[pagella][name:texgyrepagellaregular][0x-0x0400]
\definefontsynonym[fbsong][song][fallbacks=pagella]
\definefont[newsong][fbsong]

\starttext
\newsong 夹杂 English 的中文文本
\stoptext

the above English word is still display with adobesongstd but not pagella.

-- 
Best regards,

Li Yanrui (李延瑞)
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Re: [NTG-context] can not get the quotation marks from the fallback fonts

[Wolfgang Schuster]

Am 08.01.2014 um 03:23 schrieb Li Yanrui (李延瑞) liyanrui...@gmail.com:

 Hi,
 
 i find the quotation marks in those chinese fallback fonts can not work as 
 before. They always be replaced with the latin fonts. please see the 
 following example:
 
 \definefontsynonym[pagella][name:texgyrepagellaregular]
 \definefontfallback[song][name:adobesongstd][0x00400-0x2FA1F]
 \definefontsynonym[fbsong][pagella][fallbacks=song]
 \definefont[newsong][fbsong]
 
 \starttext
 \newsong 中文的\quotation{引号}。
 \stoptext
 
 i have another question, when i make texgyrepagellaregular as the fallback 
 font for adobesongstd, it can not work. see the following example:
 
 \definefontsynonym[song][name:adobesongstd]
 \definefontfallback[pagella][name:texgyrepagellaregular][0x-0x0400]
 \definefontsynonym[fbsong][song][fallbacks=pagella]
 \definefont[newsong][fbsong]
 
 \starttext
 \newsong 夹杂 English 的中文文本
 \stoptext
 
 the above English word is still display with adobesongstd but not patella.

You have to use \definefontfallback[...][...][...][force=yes] .


When you want to use these font setting for your whole document it’s better to 
set the fallback for the body font:

\definefallbackfamily [mainface] [serif] [Adobe Song Std] [range:chinese] % 
[range:chinese] == [preset=range:chinese]
\definefallbackfamily [mainface] [serif] [Adobe Song Std] [range={201C,201D}]
\definefontfamily [mainface] [serif] [TeX Gyre Pagella]

\setupbodyfont[mainface]

\starttext
中文的\quotation{引号}。
\stoptext


Wolfgang
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Re: [NTG-context] can not get the quotation marks from the fallback fonts

[李延瑞]

Thank you, Wolfgang. I have find the new simplefonts can solve these
problems after i posted that mail. This is a good news for me athough it
appeared for a long time.

-- 
Best regards,

Li Yanrui (李延瑞)
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Re: [NTG-context] \quotation with yfrak-font?

[Henning Hraban Ramm]

Am 2013-12-25 um 17:25 schrieb Rudolf Bahr qu...@quasi.de:

 Nearly all of the hundreds of fraktur-fonts in the world have problems, as 
 reported by the
 program fontforge. But even worse, mostly there is a lack of umlauts, 2 of 
 3 needed 
 different s and a lack of ligatures. And only very, very few of them have 
 in addition to 
 the normal umlauts written with double points umlauts with a small e above 
 instead.

Usable fraktur fonts with e-umlauts, long s and a set of ligatures I found in 
my collection only:

- Bastarda-K, probably by Manfred Klein
- Unifraktur Maguntia, see http://unifraktur.sourceforge.net/maguntia.html

(Without e-umlauts there are a lot more.)

Perhaps you should try to fix the y fonts with Fontforge.


Greetlings, Hraban
---
http://www.fiee.net/texnique/
http://wiki.contextgarden.net
https://www.cacert.org (I'm an assurer)

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Re: [NTG-context] \quotation with yfrak-font?

[Rudolf Bahr]

Hello Hraban,

thank you for answering!

The Fraktur fonts differ in many things from each other. I forgot to mention
the feature of automatic choice of ligatures when they appear in the text. So 
it's a matter of
not to be forced to change too much in a given text. I solved my problem within 
10 minutes by
creating my own \glqq and \grqq. Next time I will strive for a solution with 
\quotation{...}.

Greetings, Rudolf

On Thu, Dec 26, 2013 at 02:27:10PM +0600, Henning Hraban Ramm wrote:
 Am 2013-12-25 um 17:25 schrieb Rudolf Bahr qu...@quasi.de:
 
  Nearly all of the hundreds of fraktur-fonts in the world have problems, as 
  reported by the
  program fontforge. But even worse, mostly there is a lack of umlauts, 2 
  of 3 needed 
  different s and a lack of ligatures. And only very, very few of them have 
  in addition to 
  the normal umlauts written with double points umlauts with a small e 
  above instead.
 
 Usable fraktur fonts with e-umlauts, long s and a set of ligatures I found in 
 my collection only:
 
 - Bastarda-K, probably by Manfred Klein
 - Unifraktur Maguntia, see http://unifraktur.sourceforge.net/maguntia.html
 
 (Without e-umlauts there are a lot more.)
 
 Perhaps you should try to fix the y fonts with Fontforge.
 
 
 Greetlings, Hraban
 ---
 http://www.fiee.net/texnique/
 http://wiki.contextgarden.net
 https://www.cacert.org (I'm an assurer)
 
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Re: [NTG-context] \quotation with yfrak-font?

[Wolfgang Schuster]

Am 26.12.2013 um 19:56 schrieb Rudolf Bahr qu...@quasi.de:

 Hello Hraban,
 
 thank you for answering!
 
 The Fraktur fonts differ in many things from each other. I forgot to mention
 the feature of automatic choice of ligatures when they appear in the text. So 
 it's a matter of
 not to be forced to change too much in a given text. I solved my problem 
 within 10 minutes by
 creating my own \glqq and \grqq. Next time I will strive for a solution with 
 \quotation{…}.


Have you tried the unifraktur fonts, as you can see on the website the font has 
features to change
the umlauts and also to replace the normal s with the long s.

\definefontfamily[mainface][rm][Unifraktur Maguntia]

\setupbodyfont[mainface]

\definefontfeature [longs] [cv11=yes]
\definefontfeature [diaeresis] [cv15=yes]

\mainlanguage[de]

\starttext

\input knuth

schönstes – {\feature[+][longs]schönstes}

ſchön Üben – {\feature[+][diaeresis]ſchön Üben}

\quotation{Quoted text}

\stoptext

Wolfgang


test.pdf
Description: Adobe PDF document
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Re: [NTG-context] \quotation with yfrak-font?

[Rudolf Bahr]

On Thu, Dec 26, 2013 at 08:49:30PM +0100, Wolfgang Schuster wrote:
 
 Have you tried the unifraktur fonts, as you can see on the website the font 
 has features to change
 the umlauts and also to replace the normal s with the long s.
 
 \definefontfamily[mainface][rm][Unifraktur Maguntia]
 
 \setupbodyfont[mainface]
 
 \definefontfeature [longs] [cv11=yes]
 \definefontfeature [diaeresis] [cv15=yes]
 
 \mainlanguage[de]
 
 \starttext
 
 \input knuth
 
 schönstes – {\feature[+][longs]schönstes}
 
 ſchön Üben – {\feature[+][diaeresis]ſchön Üben}
 
 \quotation{Quoted text}
 
 \stoptext
 
 Wolfgang


This is the answer of my context (version: 2013.05.28 00:36):

l.2 \definefontfamily
   [mainface][rm][Unifraktur Maguntia]
? h
The control sequence at the end of the top line
of your error message was never \def'ed. If you have ...


I don't know, whether there apply in English texts the same rules as in German 
ones with respect 
to Fraktur or similar fonts.
The written Knuth text (in the .pdf-file) would contain some right s at end 
of words and syllabs 
as in Thus, components, activities or the third s in successfull, but 
the rest of all the 
other s would be wrong. 
I know that many people write German texts in this manner, because they don't 
know it better, and 
perhaps it's allowed in English texts, I don't know, but it's rather ugly in 
German ones.

In yfrak I have to describe in a special manner end s and umlauts with a 
little e 
on top too, but its very easy and short: 
middle s = s, the normal one,
ends = s:
   ä = ä or *a, ö = ö or *o and so forth.
The only error is that \quotation{...} is not possible. Perhaps yfrak will be 
repaired one day.

Ok, I admit, it would be possible to write a text with the right characters in 
Unifraktur Maguntia,
but with what expense!

I tried Unifraktur Maguntia after having it transcoded into .otf by fontforge 
and saw, that
\quotation{...} worked well. As I see now the transfering into .otf wasn't 
necessary. I will 
preserve your above example. Thanks, Wolfgang.

Rudolf

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Re: [NTG-context] \quotation with yfrak-font?

[Henning Hraban Ramm]

Am 2013-12-27 um 04:18 schrieb Rudolf Bahr qu...@quasi.de:

 In yfrak I have to describe in a special manner end s and umlauts with a 
 little e 
 on top too, but its very easy and short: 
 middle s = s, the normal one,
 ends = s:
   ä = ä or *a, ö = ö or *o and so forth.
 The only error is that \quotation{...} is not possible. Perhaps yfrak will be 
 repaired one day.

Then just type in (or copy and paste) your long s directly: ſ
We live in Unicode land nowadays, you know. ;-)

Since yfrak has no automatic replacement either, it’s surely not more 
complicated.
(Might be interesting to find a mechanism, like for hyphenation or ligatures, 
that at least does it right most of the time.)

And I’m pretty sure you don’t change umlaut variants all the time, so one setup 
in your environment or preamble is also no hassle.
A setup or switch is even better (more flexible) than yfraks ugly hardcoded 
input.


Greetlings, Hraban
---
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http://wiki.contextgarden.net
https://www.cacert.org (I'm an assurer)

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Re: [NTG-context] \quotation with yfrak-font?

[Wolfgang Schuster]

Am 26.12.2013 um 23:18 schrieb Rudolf Bahr qu...@quasi.de:

 On Thu, Dec 26, 2013 at 08:49:30PM +0100, Wolfgang Schuster wrote:
 
 Have you tried the unifraktur fonts, as you can see on the website the font 
 has features to change
 the umlauts and also to replace the normal s with the long s.
 
 \definefontfamily[mainface][rm][Unifraktur Maguntia]
 
 \setupbodyfont[mainface]
 
 \definefontfeature [longs] [cv11=yes]
 \definefontfeature [diaeresis] [cv15=yes]
 
 \mainlanguage[de]
 
 \starttext
 
 \input knuth
 
 schönstes – {\feature[+][longs]schönstes}
 
 ſchön Üben – {\feature[+][diaeresis]ſchön Üben}
 
 \quotation{Quoted text}
 
 \stoptext
 
 Wolfgang
 
 
 This is the answer of my context (version: 2013.05.28 00:36):
 
 l.2 \definefontfamily
   [mainface][rm][Unifraktur Maguntia]
 ? h
 The control sequence at the end of the top line
 of your error message was never \def'ed. If you have …

Replace the \definefontfamily line with

  \definetypeface [mainface] [rm] [specserif] [Unifraktur Maguntia] [default]

because the new font command was added last autumn and your TeXLive installation
uses a older context version (not sure if the \feature command exists there).

 I don't know, whether there apply in English texts the same rules as in 
 German ones with respect 
 to Fraktur or similar fonts.
 The written Knuth text (in the .pdf-file) would contain some right s at end 
 of words and syllabs 
 as in Thus, components, activities or the third s in successfull, but 
 the rest of all the 
 other s would be wrong. 

What do you expect from a text with doesn’t contain any long s in the input.

Maybe your expecting from context to make the right choice for the s but there
are cases where you won’t get the correct output and manual correction
is necessary.

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Re: [NTG-context] \quotation with yfrak-font?

[Rudolf Bahr]

  On Thu, Dec 26, 2013 at 08:49:30PM +0100, Wolfgang Schuster wrote:
  
  
  This is the answer of my context (version: 2013.05.28 00:36):
  
  l.2 \definefontfamily
[mainface][rm][Unifraktur Maguntia]
  ? h
  The control sequence at the end of the top line
  of your error message was never \def'ed. If you have …

 
 Replace the \definefontfamily line with
 
   \definetypeface [mainface] [rm] [specserif] [Unifraktur Maguntia] [default]
 
 because the new font command was added last autumn and your TeXLive 
 installation
 uses a older context version (not sure if the \feature command exists there).
 

Yes, your suggested replacement works well! Thank you.


  I don't know, whether there apply in English texts the same rules as in 
  German ones with respect 
  to Fraktur or similar fonts.
  The written Knuth text (in the .pdf-file) would contain some right s at 
  end of words and syllabs 
  as in Thus, components, activities or the third s in successfull, 
  but the rest of all the 
  other s would be wrong. 
 
 What do you expect from a text with doesn’t contain any long s in the input.
 
 Maybe your expecting from context to make the right choice for the s but there
 are cases where you won’t get the correct output and manual correction
 is necessary.

No, I don't expect contex to make the right choice for me instead! That won't 
be possible, 
of course: It ought to know, where syllables end. But then ... I'm asking me, 
why did you 
send me this Knuth-text with many wrong ses and without any quotation at all?

Let's finish the discussion here. The subject was: \quotation with 
yfrak-font? and
we went off course. I thank you, Wolfgang and Hraban, for having answered!

Happy New Year to all contexters in the world!

Rudolf
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Re: [NTG-context] \quotation with yfrak-font?

[Rudolf Bahr]

On Sun, Dec 22, 2013 at 12:38:58PM +0100, Wolfgang Schuster wrote:
 
 Am 22.12.2013 um 11:26 schrieb Rudolf Bahr qu...@quasi.de:
 
  
  In the following minimal example I'd like to get quotation 
  marks around the Nein!, but I don't:
  
  
  \starttext
  
  \language[de]
  \pdfmapline{yfrak yfrak.pfb}
  \definefont[YfrakFont][yfrak at 11pt]
  
  \YfrakFont
  Zu meinem Vorschlag sagte das: M*adchen: \quotation{Nein!}
  
  \stoptext
  ---
  
  Please, what is wrong?
 
 The font is wrong, I compared the afm and pub files of the font and the 
 information
 about the position of the quotation marks in the afm file and pub file don’t 
 match.
 
 I suggest to use a font in TrueType or OpenType [1] format which works with 
 less problems.
 
 [1] http://unifraktur.sourceforge.net
 
Hello Wolfgang,

thank you for your hints!
I looked up unifraktur and many, many others and could learn what you meant 
with 
less problems.
Nearly all of the hundreds of fraktur-fonts in the world have problems, as 
reported by the
program fontforge. But even worse, mostly there is a lack of umlauts, 2 of 3 
needed 
different s and a lack of ligatures. And only very, very few of them have in 
addition to 
the normal umlauts written with double points umlauts with a small e above 
instead.

So, I returned to yfrak.pfb and ysmfrak.pfb and built my own \glqq and 
\grqq, out
of apostrophs, doubling, mirroring and lowering them.
Sometimes there is a need to do so, but generally, of course, I prefere to use 
\quotation{...}!

Greetings, Rudolf

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[NTG-context] \quotation with yfrak-font?

[Rudolf Bahr]

In the following minimal example I'd like to get quotation 
marks around the Nein!, but I don't:


\starttext

\language[de]
\pdfmapline{yfrak yfrak.pfb}
\definefont[YfrakFont][yfrak at 11pt]

\YfrakFont
Zu meinem Vorschlag sagte das: M*adchen: \quotation{Nein!}

\stoptext
---

Please, what is wrong?
I fear Wolfgangs suggestion wouldn't work either in the yfrak case:

---
\starttext

\symbol[leftquotation]Left \symbol[leftquote]middle\symbol[rightquote] 
right\symbol[rightquotation]

\language[de]

\symbol[leftquotation]Left \symbol[leftquote]middle\symbol[rightquote] 
right\symbol[rightquotation]

\pdfmapline{yfrak yfrak.pfb}
\definefont[YfrakFont][yfrak at 11pt]
\YfrakFont

\setuplanguage
  [de]
  [leftquote=›,
   rightquote=‹,
   leftquotation=»,
   rightquotation=«]

\symbol[leftquotation]Nein! \symbol[leftquote]Nein!\symbol[rightquote] 
Nein!\symbol[rightquotation]

\stoptext
---

As context version I'm using:
ConTeXt  ver: 2013.06.10 22:51 MKIV beta  fmt: 2013.6.21  int: english/english

Rudolf

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Re: [NTG-context] \quotation with yfrak-font?

[Wolfgang Schuster]

Am 22.12.2013 um 11:26 schrieb Rudolf Bahr qu...@quasi.de:

 
 In the following minimal example I'd like to get quotation 
 marks around the Nein!, but I don't:
 
 
 \starttext
 
 \language[de]
 \pdfmapline{yfrak yfrak.pfb}
 \definefont[YfrakFont][yfrak at 11pt]
 
 \YfrakFont
 Zu meinem Vorschlag sagte das: M*adchen: \quotation{Nein!}
 
 \stoptext
 ---
 
 Please, what is wrong?

The font is wrong, I compared the afm and pub files of the font and the 
information
about the position of the quotation marks in the afm file and pub file don’t 
match.

I suggest to use a font in TrueType or OpenType [1] format which works with 
less problems.

[1] http://unifraktur.sourceforge.net

Wolfgang

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Re: [NTG-context] open quotation not working

[Mojca Miklavec]

On Sun, Oct 13, 2013 at 11:30 AM, Wolfgang Schuster wrote:
 Am 13.10.2013 um 06:09 schrieb Ciro A. Soto:

 sorry, I just saw an old chain of messages about this question... I fixed it 
 with the translation module.
 \usemodule[translate]
 \translateinput[``][“]
 \enableinputtranslation

 Better use real quotation marks “ and ” or \quotation{…}.

Or \quotedblleft, \quotedblright, \quotedblbase, no name for 201F.
For the flowing text these are a bit too long to use and remember for
my taste though.

LaTeX sometimes uses \grqq  \glqq which are a whole lot shorter, but
also not the easiest one to remember (or at least I don't understand
the pattern).

There could be something like \quotationleft/\quotationright 
\quoteleft/\quoteright for a single language-dependent single  double
quotation marks. And maybe another language-independent version which
would always generate the desired character (if looking for
hard-to-remember shortcuts, l/u - lower/upper; g/b/p -
9-like/6-like/reversed 9-like shape, q/qq - single/double quotation
mark; so 201C “ - \qqub [or \ubqq], 201D ” - \qqug; 201E „ - \qqlg;
201F ‟ - \qqup). Personally I never use them unpaired other than in
obscure situations (like listing all characters), so I like \quotation
and \quote a lot more than the TeX approach which taught almost
everyone here to use the wrong quotation marks. And consequently I
also don't miss any of these commands.

MS Word at least does the proper auto-replacement if the right
language is used, but in TeX most people here just cloned Knuth's
approach without giving a single thought to the local grammar  its
rules.

@John: you can always create your own feature file to do the
replacement and load it.

Mojca
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