On Thursday, November 8, 2018 at 5:23:11 AM UTC-6, Bruno Marchal wrote:
>
>
> On 7 Nov 2018, at 21:40, Philip Thrift <cloud...@gmail.com <javascript:>> 
> wrote:
>
>
>
> On Wednesday, November 7, 2018 at 9:31:38 AM UTC-6, Bruno Marchal wrote:
>>
>>
>> On 6 Nov 2018, at 10:58, Philip Thrift <cloud...@gmail.com> wrote:
>>
>>
>>
>> On Tuesday, November 6, 2018 at 2:52:23 AM UTC-6, Philip Thrift wrote:
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>> On Monday, November 5, 2018 at 5:39:42 AM UTC-6, Bruno Marchal wrote:
>>>>
>>>>
>>>> On 4 Nov 2018, at 14:53, John Clark <johnk...@gmail.com> wrote:
>>>>
>>>> On Sun, Nov 4, 2018 at 6:23 AM Philip Thrift <cloud...@gmail.com> 
>>>> wrote:
>>>>
>>>> *> If experience (Galen Strawson, The Subject of Experience) is the 
>>>>> result of information (only) processing, *
>>>>>
>>>>
>>>> If? If information is not the thing that needs processing to produce 
>>>> intelligence then what is? 
>>>>
>>>> > then the argument for arithmetical (Platonic) reality holds. 
>>>>>
>>>>
>>>> Only if somebody can show how information, or anything else, can be 
>>>> processed without using matter that obeys the laws of physics.
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>> Information processing (computation) has been first discovered in 
>>>> arithmetic, where there is no matter. 
>>>>
>>>> The fact that the physical reality is Turing-complete explains how we 
>>>> can build machine doing it, but unfortunately, if “matter” is taken 
>>>> seriously as primitive, the person itself can no more be attached to any 
>>>> particular body.
>>>>
>>>> Eventually, it is the very notion of primitive matter, or physicalism, 
>>>> which needs to be abandonned if we assume Mechanism or Computationalism.
>>>>
>>>> Of course to get this, you need a bit more than the UDA step 3 …
>>>>
>>>> Please, try to convince someone else to explain what is wrong in the 
>>>> step 3, as you did not succeed in making your point up to now.
>>>>
>>>>
>>>> And, despite the existence of books made of dead trees with black 
>>>> squiggles made of ink with a high Carbon content pressed onto them, nobody 
>>>> has even come close to doing that. 
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>> It is born in that way. Study any book in the field. You are confusing 
>>>> everyone on this.
>>>>
>>>> Bruno 
>>>>
>>>
>>>
>>> "Physics" to me is physics theories written in some language (in 2018, 
>>> who knows what language it will be in 2118).
>>>
>>> It is a language that can be used to write the Standard Model and 
>>> Einstein equation(s).
>>>
>>> *e.g.*
>>> *This version of the Standard Model is written in the Lagrangian form.*
>>>
>>> https://www.symmetrymagazine.org/article/the-deconstructed-standard-model-equation
>>>
>>> The language and the models written in the language are not the reality 
>>> itself.
>>>
>>> It is a mistake to use "physical reality" to correspond to material 
>>> reality. Material reality may not be be Turing computable.
>>>
>>> - pt
>>>
>>
>> A better way: 
>>
>> Let I = Information, E = Experience. Material reality may not be 
>> I-computable, but may be (I,E)-computable.
>>
>> All information (I) in the universe *is* Turing computable (nothing 
>> super-Turing), but experience (E) is missing.
>>
>>
>>
>> Take the duplication experience, either physical, or through the looking 
>> at a spin in some superposition state. We cannot, in both case, compute the 
>> results, but this allows us to introduce the experience by using only the 
>> indexical notion of “I”. That “I” is indeed not Turing computable, but it 
>> is still explainable entirely in term of Turing machine. A lot of things 
>> about Turing machine is not computable, so that is not so astonishing.
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>> Hence I am (somewhere) on the same page as Philip Goff.
>>
>> *Panpsychism is crazy, but it’s also most probably true*
>> - 
>> https://aeon.co/ideas/panpsychism-is-crazy-but-its-also-most-probably-true
>>
>>
>> This assume a physical universe which cannot be done if we assume 
>> mechanism and which is what I want to explain, then, yes it is crazy. It 
>> trivialises consciousness, and this does not seem to be able to make 
>> progress on the mind-body problem. It eludes it, it seems to me.
>> Consciousness needs some ability to refer to oneself, implicitly, like 
>> plants and worms, or explicitly, like most “higher” animals.
>>
>> Bruno
>>
>>
>
> Re: *That “I” is indeed not Turing computable, but it is still 
> explainable entirely in term of Turing machine. A lot of things about 
> Turing machine is not computable, so that is not so astonishing.* 
>
> I'm not sure I follow that (with respect to Ton-Turing computing), but 
> here is where I think there could be progress:
>
>
> The late Turing scholar S. Barry Cooper:
>
> *The intuition is that computational unconventionality certainly entails 
> higher-type computation, with a correspondingly enhanced respect for 
> embodied information. There is some understanding of the algorithmic 
> content of descriptions. But so far we have merely scratched the surface.*
> *
>
> Here I would add *modal *to *higher-type*, and assert that *experience 
> processing* is non-Turing (unconventional) computing [ and maybe develop 
> this into a conference paper ].
>
>
> The question will be which modal logic. Of course, the theology of 
> machines does answer that question.
>
>
>
>
>
>
> * *What Makes a Computation Unconventional? or, there is no such thing as 
> Non Turing Computation*
> S. Barry Cooper
> - 
> https://pdfs.semanticscholar.org/8c56/91dbcfd9751d4ef87135baf89ad5e64d83c2.pdf
>
> cf. *Incomputability In Nature*
> S. Barry Cooper
> - 
> https://www.researchgate.net/publication/2829873_Incomputability_In_Nature
> *To what extent is incomputability relevant to the material Universe? We 
> look at ways in which this question might be answered, and the extent to 
> which the theory of computability, which grew out of the work of Godel, 
> Church, Kleene and Turing, can contribute to a clear resolution of the 
> current confusion. It is hoped that the presentation will be accessible to 
> the non-specialist reader.*
>
>
>
> Late Barry Cooper was a very nice guy. But he is not really aware of the 
> mind-body problem (despite publishing one my paper at the ACCE meeting). I 
> do agree with his assertion that there is no such thing as a non Turing 
> computation, in nature. In arithmetic, you have the relativise computations 
> with oracle, but up to now, only the random oracle makes sense (it is a by 
> product of the first person indeterminacy, as well as the halting oracle, 
> which is just “time”).
>
> You better should make your argument straight instead of referring to 
> papers, which relevance does not strike the eyes. Keep in mind that we are 
> in the Aristotelian Era since long, with an implicit or explicit assumption 
> that there is a physical universe being ontologically “real”? Read my 
> papers for an explanation of why this is incompatible with Mechanism. Then, 
> there is no evidence at all fors such kind of matter, beyond the fact that 
> is rarely defined at all, and based on a non valid metaphysical 
> extrapolation.
>
> Bruno
>
>
> The paper would start with

   https://codicalist.wordpress.com/2018/10/14/experience-processing/

 combined with 

    https://codicalist.wordpress.com/2018/09/30/real-computationalism/

and others I have written

but I doubt that a paper I would send to an AAAI conference on conscious 
systems would have any point-of-view that matter does not exist. :)

- pt

- pt

    

   

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