> On 6 Nov 2018, at 10:58, Philip Thrift <cloudver...@gmail.com> wrote: > > > > On Tuesday, November 6, 2018 at 2:52:23 AM UTC-6, Philip Thrift wrote: > > > On Monday, November 5, 2018 at 5:39:42 AM UTC-6, Bruno Marchal wrote: > >> On 4 Nov 2018, at 14:53, John Clark <johnk...@gmail.com <>> wrote: >> >> On Sun, Nov 4, 2018 at 6:23 AM Philip Thrift <cloud...@gmail.com <>> wrote: >> >> > If experience (Galen Strawson, The Subject of Experience) is the result of >> > information (only) processing, >> >> If? If information is not the thing that needs processing to produce >> intelligence then what is? >> >> > then the argument for arithmetical (Platonic) reality holds. >> >> Only if somebody can show how information, or anything else, can be >> processed without using matter that obeys the laws of physics. > > > Information processing (computation) has been first discovered in arithmetic, > where there is no matter. > > The fact that the physical reality is Turing-complete explains how we can > build machine doing it, but unfortunately, if “matter” is taken seriously as > primitive, the person itself can no more be attached to any particular body. > > Eventually, it is the very notion of primitive matter, or physicalism, which > needs to be abandonned if we assume Mechanism or Computationalism. > > Of course to get this, you need a bit more than the UDA step 3 … > > Please, try to convince someone else to explain what is wrong in the step 3, > as you did not succeed in making your point up to now. > > >> And, despite the existence of books made of dead trees with black squiggles >> made of ink with a high Carbon content pressed onto them, nobody has even >> come close to doing that. > > > It is born in that way. Study any book in the field. You are confusing > everyone on this. > > Bruno > > > "Physics" to me is physics theories written in some language (in 2018, who > knows what language it will be in 2118). > > It is a language that can be used to write the Standard Model and Einstein > equation(s). > > e.g. > This version of the Standard Model is written in the Lagrangian form. > https://www.symmetrymagazine.org/article/the-deconstructed-standard-model-equation > > <https://www.symmetrymagazine.org/article/the-deconstructed-standard-model-equation> > > The language and the models written in the language are not the reality > itself. > > It is a mistake to use "physical reality" to correspond to material reality. > Material reality may not be be Turing computable. > > - pt > > A better way: > > Let I = Information, E = Experience. Material reality may not be > I-computable, but may be (I,E)-computable. > > All information (I) in the universe is Turing computable (nothing > super-Turing), but experience (E) is missing.
Take the duplication experience, either physical, or through the looking at a spin in some superposition state. We cannot, in both case, compute the results, but this allows us to introduce the experience by using only the indexical notion of “I”. That “I” is indeed not Turing computable, but it is still explainable entirely in term of Turing machine. A lot of things about Turing machine is not computable, so that is not so astonishing. > > Hence I am (somewhere) on the same page as Philip Goff. > > Panpsychism is crazy, but it’s also most probably true > - https://aeon.co/ideas/panpsychism-is-crazy-but-its-also-most-probably-true This assume a physical universe which cannot be done if we assume mechanism and which is what I want to explain, then, yes it is crazy. It trivialises consciousness, and this does not seem to be able to make progress on the mind-body problem. It eludes it, it seems to me. Consciousness needs some ability to refer to oneself, implicitly, like plants and worms, or explicitly, like most “higher” animals. Bruno > > - pt > > -- > You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups > "Everything List" group. > To unsubscribe from this group and stop receiving emails from it, send an > email to everything-list+unsubscr...@googlegroups.com > <mailto:everything-list+unsubscr...@googlegroups.com>. > To post to this group, send email to firstname.lastname@example.org > <mailto:email@example.com>. > Visit this group at https://groups.google.com/group/everything-list > <https://groups.google.com/group/everything-list>. > For more options, visit https://groups.google.com/d/optout > <https://groups.google.com/d/optout>. -- You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups "Everything List" group. To unsubscribe from this group and stop receiving emails from it, send an email to everything-list+unsubscr...@googlegroups.com. To post to this group, send email to firstname.lastname@example.org. Visit this group at https://groups.google.com/group/everything-list. For more options, visit https://groups.google.com/d/optout.