subject:"Re\: \[AFMUG\] WAY OT\: Concealed Carry handguns \- which to buy and why"

So then you'll take your guns to the police or sheriff and tell them you 
don't need them anymore?

On 12/7/2015 9:43 PM, Sean Heskett wrote:

Australia had a gun problem...until it didn't anymore.

Just sayin

-Sean

On Monday, December 7, 2015, Chuck McCown <mailto:ch...@wbmfg.com>> wrote:

On the assault rifle issue, are we just arguing about magazine size?
Or does it need a handle on top and a pistol grip?
How does a BAR differ from an AR?  Assuming they are the same caliber.
BAR is OK because it only shoots deer, but the AR is for shooting
people?
Wood stock good, green metal and plastic bad?
Semi automatic deer hunting rifles are OK, right?
Is this a distinction without a difference?
*From:* Sean Heskett

*Sent:* Monday, December 07, 2015 3:31 PM
*To:* af@afmug.com 
    *Subject:* Re: [AFMUG] WAY OT: Concealed Carry handguns - which to
buy and why
i have a Glock23 .40cal works great but it's not quite a "conceal
carry" size.  I have it (unloaded and trigger locked) in my
survival pack that stays in my airplane incase of an emergency
landing in the back country ;-)
i'm also a Progressive Libtard (registered independent) that
thinks we should ban assault rifles and large magazines just as we
have banned hand grenades, bombs, rocket launchers and other
military style/grade weapons.  I've had my Hunter's safety card
since I was 12 and I also went to high school next to Columbine in
CO.  My younger sister had friends who died in the attack.
2 cents.
-Sean
On Mon, Dec 7, 2015 at 3:01 PM, James Howard > wrote:

It wasn’t just the backstrap that bothered me.  Mostly the
diamond pattern just didn’t feel good in my hands.  I just did
a bit of looking now though and it looks like there are some
options for fixing that.  I might have to look into them
again.  I really like the Sig P938 so far though.

I missed your comment about Glock fanboys.  Shocking we
haven’t had any so far but the thread devolved into politics
from a simple question of what brand/model of pistol we like. 
For the record, I’ve yet to meet a Glock that I’d want to own.

*From:*Af [mailto:af-boun...@afmug.com
] *On
Behalf Of *Josh Reynolds
*Sent:* Monday, December 07, 2015 11:08 AM
        *To:* af@afmug.com 
    *Subject:* Re: [AFMUG] WAY OT: Concealed Carry handguns -
which to buy and why

XDS has replaceable grip backstraps.

On Mon, Dec 7, 2015 at 11:04 AM, James Howard
> wrote:

Sig P938 is 9mm and almost exactly the same size as a P238. 
I’ve got the SAS model (anti snag).  I’ve also got a S&W M&P

Shield in 9mm and have looked at the Springfield XDS many
times.  I just can’t get over the fact that I don’t like the
grips on the XDS.  Prime reason to go with the XDS is that you
can get it in 45ACP.  There are a lot of cheaper brands out
there too.

If you have a place where you can do it, go and test fire all
the different options.  My father-in-law bought a Glock 36
because several people told him how great they were.  The
problem is that it doesn’t fit his hand well at all and the
trigger digs into his finger so he shoots terrible with it. 
His accuracy is greatly improved using my M&P Shield.

No matter what you get though.  A major key to carrying it
safely is practice and being comfortable with it.

*From:*Af [mailto:af-boun...@afmug.com
] *On
Behalf Of *Simon Westlake
*Sent:* Monday, December 07, 2015 10:09 AM
    *To:* af@afmug.com 
    *Subject:* Re: [AFMUG] WAY OT: Concealed Carry handguns -
which to buy and why

That was one thing I forgot to mention with the P238.. it has
a manual safety as well, if that's important to you. I
personally don't really care, but it's another good point.

On 12/7/2015 10:07 AM, Jeremy wrote:

A lot of people are carrying a gun that has no safety. 
The safety is released by squeezing the trigger,

essentially.  I have kids, and although I plan to keep my
gun far away from them, I cannot on a clear conscience
carry a gun with no safety. I have been considering a
revolver.  My bro has a CC and he recommends something
smaller, so it doesn't jab you in the side whenever you
sit down.  I am still looking for the right gun for a CC. 
I've already had a gun pulled on my at a job.

On Mon, Dec 7, 2015 at 9:03 AM, Paul McCall
> wrote:

I am getting my CC permit (Florida) in a week or so.  I
took an

Re: [AFMUG] WAY OT: Concealed Carry handguns - which to buy and why

2015-12-07 Thread Sean Heskett

Australia had a gun problem...until it didn't anymore.

Just sayin

-Sean


On Monday, December 7, 2015, Chuck McCown  wrote:

> On the assault rifle issue, are we just arguing about magazine size?
>
> Or does it need a handle on top and a pistol grip?
> How does a BAR differ from an AR?  Assuming they are the same caliber.
> BAR is OK because it only shoots deer, but the AR is for shooting people?
> Wood stock good, green metal and plastic bad?
>
> Semi automatic deer hunting rifles are OK, right?
>
> Is this a distinction without a difference?
>
> *From:* Sean Heskett 
> *Sent:* Monday, December 07, 2015 3:31 PM
> *To:* af@afmug.com 
> *Subject:* Re: [AFMUG] WAY OT: Concealed Carry handguns - which to buy
> and why
>
> i have a Glock23 .40cal works great but it's not quite a "conceal carry"
> size.  I have it (unloaded and trigger locked) in my survival pack that
> stays in my airplane incase of an emergency landing in the back country ;-)
>
> i'm also a Progressive Libtard (registered independent) that thinks we
> should ban assault rifles and large magazines just as we have banned hand
> grenades, bombs, rocket launchers and other military style/grade weapons.
> I've had my Hunter's safety card since I was 12 and I also went to high
> school next to Columbine in CO.  My younger sister had friends who died in
> the attack.
>
> 2 cents.
>
> -Sean
>
>
> On Mon, Dec 7, 2015 at 3:01 PM, James Howard  > wrote:
>
>> It wasn’t just the backstrap that bothered me.  Mostly the diamond
>> pattern just didn’t feel good in my hands.  I just did a bit of looking now
>> though and it looks like there are some options for fixing that.  I might
>> have to look into them again.  I really like the Sig P938 so far though.
>>
>>
>>
>> I missed your comment about Glock fanboys.  Shocking we haven’t had any
>> so far but the thread devolved into politics from a simple question of what
>> brand/model of pistol we like.  For the record, I’ve yet to meet a Glock
>> that I’d want to own.
>>
>>
>>
>> *From:* Af [mailto:af-boun...@afmug.com
>> ] *On Behalf Of *Josh
>> Reynolds
>> *Sent:* Monday, December 07, 2015 11:08 AM
>> *To:* af@afmug.com 
>> *Subject:* Re: [AFMUG] WAY OT: Concealed Carry handguns - which to buy
>> and why
>>
>>
>>
>> XDS has replaceable grip backstraps.
>>
>>
>>
>> On Mon, Dec 7, 2015 at 11:04 AM, James Howard > > wrote:
>>
>> Sig P938 is 9mm and almost exactly the same size as a P238.  I’ve got the
>> SAS model (anti snag).  I’ve also got a S&W M&P Shield in 9mm and have
>> looked at the Springfield XDS many times.  I just can’t get over the fact
>> that I don’t like the grips on the XDS.  Prime reason to go with the XDS is
>> that you can get it in 45ACP.  There are a lot of cheaper brands out there
>> too.
>>
>>
>>
>> If you have a place where you can do it, go and test fire all the
>> different options.  My father-in-law bought a Glock 36 because several
>> people told him how great they were.  The problem is that it doesn’t fit
>> his hand well at all and the trigger digs into his finger so he shoots
>> terrible with it.  His accuracy is greatly improved using my M&P Shield.
>>
>>
>>
>> No matter what you get though.  A major key to carrying it safely is
>> practice and being comfortable with it.
>>
>>
>>
>> *From:* Af [mailto:af-boun...@afmug.com
>> ] *On Behalf Of *Simon
>> Westlake
>> *Sent:* Monday, December 07, 2015 10:09 AM
>> *To:* af@afmug.com 
>> *Subject:* Re: [AFMUG] WAY OT: Concealed Carry handguns - which to buy
>> and why
>>
>>
>>
>> That was one thing I forgot to mention with the P238.. it has a manual
>> safety as well, if that's important to you. I personally don't really care,
>> but it's another good point.
>>
>> On 12/7/2015 10:07 AM, Jeremy wrote:
>>
>> A lot of people are carrying a gun that has no safety.  The safety is
>> released by squeezing the trigger, essentially.  I have kids, and although
>> I plan to keep my gun far away from them, I cannot on a clear conscience
>> carry a gun with no safety.  I have been considering a revolver.  My bro
>> has a CC and he recommends something smaller, so it doesn't jab you in the
>> side whenever you sit down.  I am still looking for the right gun for a
>> CC.  I've already had a gun pulled on my at a job.
>>
>>
>>
>> On Mon, Dec 7, 2015 at 9:03 AM, Paul McCall > > wrote:
>>

Re: [AFMUG] WAY OT: Concealed Carry handguns - which to buy and why

2015-12-07 Thread Brandon Yuchasz

Sure he can during his trial.

 

 

Best regards,

Brandon Yuchasz

GogebicRange.net

www.gogebicrange.net <http://www.gogebicrange.net/> 

 

From: Af [mailto:af-boun...@afmug.com] On Behalf Of CBB - Jay Fuller
Sent: Monday, December 07, 2015 9:04 PM
To: af@afmug.com
Subject: Re: [AFMUG] WAY OT: Concealed Carry handguns - which to buy and why

 

 

I heard today on the news a guy was upset that a guy backed over his motorbike 
and beat a guy to the ground over it .  Said guy pulled his gun and shot bike 
owner three times.   Was charged with murder.  Guess he couldn't claim self 
defense

 

Sent from my Verizon 4G LTE Smartphone

 

- Reply message -
From: "Paul McCall" 
To: "af@afmug.com" 
Subject: [AFMUG] WAY OT: Concealed Carry handguns - which to buy and why
Date: Mon, Dec 7, 2015 7:40 PM

 

Patrick, 

Please tell that description to an acquaintance of mine whose concealed carry 
gun saved his life and the life of his wife and 2 young kids  from two thugs 
who attacked and beat him with a pipe because he “looked at them funny” as they 
left the grocery store at 8pm.  He was able to pull his gun and disable the 
perps with 3 shots.   

 

Tell that to the people who wish they would have had a gun to possibly defend 
themselves against mass shooters instead of begging  for mercy and peeing 
themselves in the corner.

 

An intelligent, disciplined, gun owner who seeks the proper shoot / don’t shoot 
training is to be respected for being responsible.  If you were in the room 
with an active shooter and a trained gun owner saved your life, would you call 
him pathetic ?

 

Paul

 

From: Af [mailto:af-boun...@afmug.com] On Behalf Of Patrick Leary
Sent: Monday, December 07, 2015 11:58 AM
To: af@afmug.com
Subject: Re: [AFMUG] WAY OT: Concealed Carry handguns - which to buy and why

 

I’ll just note this is a pathetic thread to have in any society that considers 
itself civil. Hell, even in the “wild west” the local law had people check 
their weapons into the sheriff when they came into town. In fact, formerly, 
states like Texas lead the country in banning open carry.

 

“All the more surprising, then, that Texas was the first state to ban its 
citizens from carrying handguns, a restriction that remained on the books for 
125 years.”  
<http://www.houstonchronicle.com/news/politics/texas/article/First-to-ban-open-carry-Texas-could-be-one-of-5974401.php>
 
http://www.houstonchronicle.com/news/politics/texas/article/First-to-ban-open-carry-Texas-could-be-one-of-5974401.php

 

And just read this scholarly article from 1999:

 

Gun Control and the Old West
By Ross Collins
 <http://www2.h-net.msu.edu/~hns/index.html> History News Service, Summer 1999.

The smoke has cleared, and we peer down at the victim: another gun control 
bill, shot full ‘o holes. Just like in the old horse operas: a hero again 
shoots to protect a precious freedom, America’s right to bear arms. For many 
who keep a romantic image of America’s past, gun control is like that, a battle 
steeped in American tradition. It calls us back to those legendary days of the 
Old West, when cowboys defended their honor and their horses by way of their 
Colts
.
In fact, most historians see the cowboys of the Old West as THE defining heroes 
of 20th-century America. He’s used to sell everything from soap to hats. He’s 
apparently also an ideal American for anti-gun control groups: gun shows and 
gun advertising promote from a distinctive Old West flavor. 

Today’s anti gun control forces count their strongest support among society’s 
leaders from the states that once formed part of the Old West.
The actual Old West pioneers of historical fact viewed matters differently, 
however. They would certainly hail the campaign to protect an American right to 
bear arms, but the record puts them behind "moderate, common-sense measures" 
for gun control—the very kind that President Clinton has proposed.

Pioneer publications show Old West leaders repeatedly arguing in favor of gun 
control. City leaders in the old cattle towns knew from experience what some 
Americans today don't want to believe: a town which allows easy access to guns 
invites trouble.
What these cow town leaders saw intimately in their day-to-day association with 
guns is that more guns in more places caused not greater safety, but greater 
death in an already dangerous wilderness. By the 1880s many in the west were 
fed up with gun violence. Gun control, they contended, was absolutely 
essential, and the remedy advocated usually was usually no less than a total 
ban on pistol-packing.
The editor of the Black Hills Daily Times of Dakota Territory in 1884, called 
the idea of carrying firearms into the city a “dangerous practice,” not only to 
others, but to the packer himself. He emphasized his point with the headline, 
"Perforated by His Own Pistol."
The editor of the Montana’s Yellowstone Journal acknowle

Re: [AFMUG] WAY OT: Concealed Carry handguns - which to buy and why

2015-12-07 Thread Eric Kuhnke

I would recommend a CZ 75 with alloy frame and rail, there's a few
varieties. I used to have a CZ-75BD, it was nice, but large and heavy. If
buying now I would probably choose a CZ-75 P-01.

If you are planning to carry with a round in the chamber I recommend
something that has an external hammer and DA/SA action, with decocker (same
as the 75BD or P-01. Carry with hammer down, first round is a strong double
action pull on the trigger, everything after that is single action.

On Mon, Dec 7, 2015 at 8:03 AM, Paul McCall  wrote:

> I am getting my CC permit (Florida) in a week or so.  I took an absolutely
> excellent class from the main trainer at the Brevard county sheriff’s
> office.
>
>
>
> Now, I am looking for an excellent CC gun to use, as my long barrel Colt
> 38 is not a good fit for that.
>
>
>
> I am certain that this group probably has a LOT of expertise (and many
> opinions) on THE gun to use.
>
>
>
> J
>
>
>
> Paul McCall, Pres.
>
> PDMNet / Florida Broadband
>
> 658 Old Dixie Highway
>
> Vero Beach, FL 32962
>
> 772-564-6800 office
>
> 772-473-0352 cell
>
> www.pdmnet.com
>
> pa...@pdmnet.net
>
>
>

Re: [AFMUG] WAY OT: Concealed Carry handguns - which to buy and why

2015-12-07 Thread CBB - Jay Fuller

I heard today on the news a guy was upset that a guy backed over his motorbike 
and beat a guy to the ground over it .  Said guy pulled his gun and shot bike 
owner three times.   Was charged with murder.  Guess he couldn't claim self 
defense

Sent from my Verizon 4G LTE Smartphone

- Reply message -
From: "Paul McCall" 
To: "af@afmug.com" 
Subject: [AFMUG] WAY OT: Concealed Carry handguns - which to buy and why
Date: Mon, Dec 7, 2015 7:40 PM

Patrick, 

Please tell that description to an acquaintance of mine whose concealed carry 
gun saved his life and the life of his wife and 2 young kids  from two thugs 
who 
attacked and beat him with a pipe because he “looked at them funny” as they 
left the grocery store at 8pm.  He was able to pull his gun and disable the 
perps with 3 shots.   

Tell that to the people who wish they would have had a gun to possibly defend 
themselves against mass shooters instead of begging  for mercy and peeing 
themselves 
in the corner. 

An intelligent, disciplined, gun owner 
who seeks the proper shoot / don’t shoot training is to be respected for being 
responsible.  If you were in the room with an active shooter and a trained gun 
owner saved your life, would you call him pathetic ? 

Paul 

From: Af [mailto:af-boun...@afmug.com] 
On Behalf Of Patrick Leary

Sent: Monday, December 07, 2015 11:58 AM

To: af@afmug.com

Subject: Re: [AFMUG] WAY OT: Concealed Carry handguns - which to buy and why 

I’ll just note this is a pathetic thread to have in any society that considers 
itself civil. Hell, even in the “wild west” the local 
law had people check their weapons into the sheriff when they came into town. 
In fact, formerly, states like Texas lead the country in banning open carry. 

“All the more surprising, then, that Texas was the first state to ban its 
citizens 
from carrying handguns, a restriction that remained on the books for 125 
years.” 
http://www.houstonchronicle.com/news/politics/texas/article/First-to-ban-open-carry-Texas-could-be-one-of-5974401.php

And just read this scholarly article from 1999: 

Gun Control and the Old West

By Ross Collins

History News Service, Summer 1999.

The smoke has cleared, and we peer down at the victim: another gun control 
bill, shot full ‘o holes. Just like in the old horse operas: a hero again 
shoots to protect a precious freedom, America’s right to bear arms. For many 
who keep a romantic image of America’s 
past, gun control is like that, a battle steeped in American tradition. It 
calls us back to those legendary days of the Old West, when cowboys defended 
their honor and their horses by way of their Colts

.

In fact, most historians see the cowboys of the Old West as THE defining heroes 
of 20th-century America. He’s used to sell everything from soap to hats. He’s 
apparently also an ideal American for anti-gun control groups: gun shows and 
gun advertising promote 
from a distinctive Old West flavor. 

Today’s anti gun control forces count their strongest support among society’s 
leaders from the states that once formed part of the Old West.

The actual Old West pioneers of historical fact viewed matters differently, 
however. They would certainly hail the campaign to protect an American right to 
bear arms, but the record puts them behind "moderate, common-sense measures" 
for gun control—the very 
kind that President Clinton has proposed.

Pioneer publications show Old West leaders repeatedly arguing in favor of gun 
control. City leaders in the old cattle towns knew from experience what some 
Americans today don't want to believe: a town which allows easy access to guns 
invites trouble.

What these cow town leaders saw intimately in their day-to-day association with 
guns is that more guns in more places caused not greater safety, but greater 
death in an already dangerous wilderness. By the 1880s many in the west were 
fed up with gun violence. 
Gun control, they contended, was absolutely essential, and the remedy advocated 
usually was usually no less than a total ban on pistol-packing.

The editor of the Black Hills Daily Times of Dakota Territory in 1884, called 
the idea of carrying firearms into the city a “dangerous practice,” not only to 
others, but to the packer himself. He emphasized his point with the headline, 
"Perforated by His Own 
Pistol."

The editor of the Montana’s Yellowstone Journal acknowledged four years earlier 
that Americans have "the right to bear arms," but he contended that guns have 
to be regulated. As for cowboys carrying pistols, a dispatch from Laramie’s 
Northwest Stock Journal 
in 1884, reported, "We see many cowboys fitting up for the spring and summer 
work. They all seem to think it absolutely necessary to have a revolver. Of all 
foolish notions this is the most absurd."

Cowboy president Theodore Roosevelt recalled with approval that as a Dakota 
Territory ranch owner, his

Re: [AFMUG] WAY OT: Concealed Carry handguns - which to buy and why

Yep...no doubt...so far my skills have kept me from getting hurtbut I
have no delusion I am faster than a bullit. ...I do have illusion of living
peacefully.  Love Peace and Tecate...
On Dec 7, 2015 7:03 PM, "Mike Hammett"  wrote:

> The after effects of getting beaten with a pipe will be an issue for the
> rest of their lives too.
>
>
>
> -
> Mike Hammett
> Intelligent Computing Solutions
> http://www.ics-il.com
>
> <https://www.facebook.com/ICSIL>
> <https://plus.google.com/+IntelligentComputingSolutionsDeKalb>
> <https://www.linkedin.com/company/intelligent-computing-solutions>
> <https://twitter.com/ICSIL>
>
> Midwest Internet Exchange
> http://www.midwest-ix.com
>
> <https://www.facebook.com/mdwestix>
> <https://www.linkedin.com/company/midwest-internet-exchange>
> <https://twitter.com/mdwestix>
> ----------
> *From: *"Jaime Solorza" 
> *To: *"Animal Farm" 
> *Sent: *Monday, December 7, 2015 8:01:45 PM
> *Subject: *Re: [AFMUG] WAY OT: Concealed Carry handguns - which to buy
> and why
>
> Too many variables on people with guns...very few people have the
> temperament to use it...and after affects of killing someone no matter if
> justified will be an issue for rest of their lives.  peace and love...
>
> Adam,
>
>
>
> I kinda knew where it would go, LOL.  Seriously, my attempt at education
> on peoples preferences has been beneficial.  An as usual, the list has also
> provided a bit of levity in the process J
>
>
>
> Everyone has the right to their opinion, even though this was not a
> solicitation for that,  undoubtedly someone would surely jump in and say
> “b… responsible, trained gun owners”… that’s their right, and I would
> protect them as indiscriminately as much as a gun wielding thug bent on
> evil would indiscriminately shoot them without discussing their politics,
> LOL.
>
>
>
> And, I might even come away with some good guns to consider!
>
>
>
> It’s all good.  Having a glass of wine while I catchup on the most active
> thread we have had in 3 months !
>
>
>
> Paul
>
>
>
> *From:* Af [mailto:af-boun...@afmug.com] *On Behalf Of *Adam Moffett
> *Sent:* Monday, December 07, 2015 2:04 PM
> *To:* af@afmug.com
> *Subject:* Re: [AFMUG] WAY OT: Concealed Carry handguns - which to buy
> and why
>
>
>
> I bet Paul McCall regrets this thread.
>
> On 12/7/2015 2:03 PM, Chuck McCown wrote:
>
> traitor...
>
>
>
> *From:* George Skorup 
>
> *Sent:* Monday, December 07, 2015 12:01 PM
>
> *To:* af@afmug.com
>
> *Subject:* Re: [AFMUG] WAY OT: Concealed Carry handguns - which to buy
> and why
>
>
>
> http://community.cambiumnetworks.com/
>
> :)
>
> On 12/7/2015 12:53 PM, Peter Kranz wrote:
>
> Came looking for a Cambium forum.. Found fox news..
>
>
>
>
> *Peter Kranz *www.UnwiredLtd.com
> Desk: 510-868-1614 x100
> Mobile: 510-207-
> pkr...@unwiredltd.com
>
>
>
>
>
>

Re: [AFMUG] WAY OT: Concealed Carry handguns - which to buy and why

2015-12-07 Thread Bill Prince

For every one that carrying a weapon has provided "some good", there are
several hundred where it has provided the exact opposite.

I'm not arguing for gun control; pretty much any proposed rules have
serious flaws that I doubt will help anyway. Others have pointed this out.

The real issue is one of attitude, and culture. It would (will?) take 5
or 10 generations of actively changing the culture, and we haven't even
started yet. We supposedly stopped slavery in the 1860s, but we haven't
completely fixed that problem yet either 150+ years later.

On 12/7/2015 5:40 PM, Paul McCall wrote:

Patrick,

Please tell that description to an acquaintance of mine whose
concealed carry gun saved his life and the life of his wife and 2
young kids from two thugs who attacked and beat him with a pipe
because he “looked at them funny” as they left the grocery store at
8pm. He was able to pull his gun and disable the perps with 3 shots.

Tell that to the people who wish they would have had a gun to possibly
defend themselves against mass shooters instead of begging for mercy
and peeing themselves in the corner.

An intelligent, disciplined, gun owner /who seeks the proper shoot /
don’t shoot training/ is to be respected for being responsible. If
you were in the room with an active shooter and a trained gun owner
saved your life, would you call him pathetic ?

Paul

*From:*Af [mailto:af-boun...@afmug.com] *On Behalf Of *Patrick Leary
*Sent:* Monday, December 07, 2015 11:58 AM
*To:* af@afmug.com
*Subject:* Re: [AFMUG] WAY OT: Concealed Carry handguns - which to buy
and why

I’ll just note this is a pathetic thread to have in any society that
considers itself civil. Hell, even in the “wild west” the local law
had people check their weapons into the sheriff when they came into
town. In fact, formerly, states like Texas lead the country in banning
open carry.

“All the more surprising, then, that Texas was the first state to ban
its citizens from carrying handguns, a restriction that remained on
the books for 125 years.”
http://www.houstonchronicle.com/news/politics/texas/article/First-to-ban-open-carry-Texas-could-be-one-of-5974401.php

And just read this scholarly article from 1999:

*Gun Control and the Old West*
By Ross Collins
History News Service <http://www2.h-net.msu.edu/%7Ehns/index.html>,
Summer 1999.

.
In fact, most historians see the cowboys of the Old West as THE
defining heroes of 20th-century America. He’s used to sell everything
from soap to hats. He’s apparently also an ideal American for anti-gun
control groups: gun shows and gun advertising promote from a
distinctive Old West flavor.

Today’s anti gun control forces count their strongest support among
society’s leaders from the states that once formed part of the Old West.
The actual Old West pioneers of historical fact viewed matters
differently, however. They would certainly hail the campaign to
protect an American right to bear arms, but the record puts them
behind "moderate, common-sense measures" for gun control—the very kind
that President Clinton has proposed.

Pioneer publications show Old West leaders repeatedly arguing in favor
of gun control. City leaders in the old cattle towns knew from
experience what some Americans today don't want to believe: a town
which allows easy access to guns invites trouble.
What these cow town leaders saw intimately in their day-to-day
association with guns is that more guns in more places caused not
greater safety, but greater death in an already dangerous wilderness.
By the 1880s many in the west were fed up with gun violence. Gun
control, they contended, was absolutely essential, and the remedy
advocated usually was usually no less than a total ban on pistol-packing.
The editor of the Black Hills Daily Times of Dakota Territory in 1884,
called the idea of carrying firearms into the city a “dangerous
practice,” not only to others, but to the packer himself. He
emphasized his point with the headline, "Perforated by His Own Pistol."
The editor of the Montana’s Yellowstone Journal acknowledged four
years earlier that Americans have "the right to bear arms," but he
contended that guns have to be regulated. As for cowboys carrying
pistols, a dispatch from Laramie’s Northwest Stock Journal in 1884,
reported, "We see many cowboys fitting up for the spring and summer
work. They all seem to think it absolutely necess

Re: [AFMUG] WAY OT: Concealed Carry handguns - which to buy and why

The after effects of getting beaten with a pipe will be an issue for the rest 
of their lives too. 




- 
Mike Hammett 
Intelligent Computing Solutions 
http://www.ics-il.com 



Midwest Internet Exchange 
http://www.midwest-ix.com 


- Original Message -

From: "Jaime Solorza"  
To: "Animal Farm"  
Sent: Monday, December 7, 2015 8:01:45 PM 
Subject: Re: [AFMUG] WAY OT: Concealed Carry handguns - which to buy and why 


Too many variables on people with guns...very few people have the temperament 
to use it...and after affects of killing someone no matter if justified will be 
an issue for rest of their lives. peace and love... 



Adam, 

I kinda knew where it would go, LOL. Seriously, my attempt at education on 
peoples preferences has been beneficial. An as usual, the list has also 
provided a bit of levity in the process J 

Everyone has the right to their opinion, even though this was not a 
solicitation for that, undoubtedly someone would surely jump in and say “b… 
responsible, trained gun owners”… that’s their right, and I would protect them 
as indiscriminately as much as a gun wielding thug bent on evil would 
indiscriminately shoot them without discussing their politics, LOL. 

And, I might even come away with some good guns to consider! 

It’s all good. Having a glass of wine while I catchup on the most active thread 
we have had in 3 months ! 

Paul 



From: Af [mailto: af-boun...@afmug.com ] On Behalf Of Adam Moffett 
Sent: Monday, December 07, 2015 2:04 PM 
To: af@afmug.com 
Subject: Re: [AFMUG] WAY OT: Concealed Carry handguns - which to buy and why 

I bet Paul McCall regrets this thread. 



On 12/7/2015 2:03 PM, Chuck McCown wrote: 





traitor... 






From: George Skorup 

Sent: Monday, December 07, 2015 12:01 PM 

To: af@afmug.com 

Subject: Re: [AFMUG] WAY OT: Concealed Carry handguns - which to buy and why 



http://community.cambiumnetworks.com/ 

:) 

On 12/7/2015 12:53 PM, Peter Kranz wrote: 


Came looking for a Cambium forum.. Found fox news.. 

Peter Kranz 
www.UnwiredLtd.com 
Desk: 510-868-1614 x100 
Mobile: 510-207- 
pkr...@unwiredltd.com

Re: [AFMUG] WAY OT: Concealed Carry handguns - which to buy and why

Too many variables on people with guns...very few people have the
temperament to use it...and after affects of killing someone no matter if
justified will be an issue for rest of their lives.  peace and love...

Adam,



I kinda knew where it would go, LOL.  Seriously, my attempt at education on
peoples preferences has been beneficial.  An as usual, the list has also
provided a bit of levity in the process J



Everyone has the right to their opinion, even though this was not a
solicitation for that,  undoubtedly someone would surely jump in and say
“b… responsible, trained gun owners”… that’s their right, and I would
protect them as indiscriminately as much as a gun wielding thug bent on
evil would indiscriminately shoot them without discussing their politics,
LOL.



And, I might even come away with some good guns to consider!



It’s all good.  Having a glass of wine while I catchup on the most active
thread we have had in 3 months !



Paul



*From:* Af [mailto:af-boun...@afmug.com] *On Behalf Of *Adam Moffett
*Sent:* Monday, December 07, 2015 2:04 PM
*To:* af@afmug.com
*Subject:* Re: [AFMUG] WAY OT: Concealed Carry handguns - which to buy and
why



I bet Paul McCall regrets this thread.

On 12/7/2015 2:03 PM, Chuck McCown wrote:

traitor...



*From:* George Skorup 

*Sent:* Monday, December 07, 2015 12:01 PM

*To:* af@afmug.com

*Subject:* Re: [AFMUG] WAY OT: Concealed Carry handguns - which to buy and
why



http://community.cambiumnetworks.com/

:)

On 12/7/2015 12:53 PM, Peter Kranz wrote:

Came looking for a Cambium forum.. Found fox news..




*Peter Kranz *www.UnwiredLtd.com
Desk: 510-868-1614 x100
Mobile: 510-207-
pkr...@unwiredltd.com

Re: [AFMUG] WAY OT: Concealed Carry handguns - which to buy and why

2015-12-07 Thread Paul McCall

Adam,

I kinda knew where it would go, LOL.  Seriously, my attempt at education on 
peoples preferences has been beneficial.  An as usual, the list has also 
provided a bit of levity in the process ☺

Everyone has the right to their opinion, even though this was not a 
solicitation for that,  undoubtedly someone would surely jump in and say 
“b… responsible, trained gun owners”… that’s their right, and I would 
protect them as indiscriminately as much as a gun wielding thug bent on evil 
would indiscriminately shoot them without discussing their politics, LOL.

And, I might even come away with some good guns to consider!

It’s all good.  Having a glass of wine while I catchup on the most active 
thread we have had in 3 months !

Paul

From: Af [mailto:af-boun...@afmug.com] On Behalf Of Adam Moffett
Sent: Monday, December 07, 2015 2:04 PM
To: af@afmug.com
Subject: Re: [AFMUG] WAY OT: Concealed Carry handguns - which to buy and why

I bet Paul McCall regrets this thread.

On 12/7/2015 2:03 PM, Chuck McCown wrote:
traitor...

From: George Skorup<mailto:geo...@cbcast.com>
Sent: Monday, December 07, 2015 12:01 PM
To: af@afmug.com<mailto:af@afmug.com>
Subject: Re: [AFMUG] WAY OT: Concealed Carry handguns - which to buy and why

http://community.cambiumnetworks.com/

:)
On 12/7/2015 12:53 PM, Peter Kranz wrote:
Came looking for a Cambium forum.. Found fox news..

Peter Kranz
www.UnwiredLtd.com<http://www.UnwiredLtd.com>
Desk: 510-868-1614 x100
Mobile: 510-207-
pkr...@unwiredltd.com<mailto:pkr...@unwiredltd.com>

Re: [AFMUG] WAY OT: Concealed Carry handguns - which to buy and why

2015-12-07 Thread Paul McCall

Patrick,
Please tell that description to an acquaintance of mine whose concealed carry 
gun saved his life and the life of his wife and 2 young kids  from two thugs 
who attacked and beat him with a pipe because he “looked at them funny” as they 
left the grocery store at 8pm.  He was able to pull his gun and disable the 
perps with 3 shots.

Tell that to the people who wish they would have had a gun to possibly defend 
themselves against mass shooters instead of begging  for mercy and peeing 
themselves in the corner.

An intelligent, disciplined, gun owner who seeks the proper shoot / don’t shoot 
training is to be respected for being responsible.  If you were in the room 
with an active shooter and a trained gun owner saved your life, would you call 
him pathetic ?

Paul

From: Af [mailto:af-boun...@afmug.com] On Behalf Of Patrick Leary
Sent: Monday, December 07, 2015 11:58 AM
To: af@afmug.com
Subject: Re: [AFMUG] WAY OT: Concealed Carry handguns - which to buy and why

I’ll just note this is a pathetic thread to have in any society that considers 
itself civil. Hell, even in the “wild west” the local law had people check 
their weapons into the sheriff when they came into town. In fact, formerly, 
states like Texas lead the country in banning open carry.

“All the more surprising, then, that Texas was the first state to ban its 
citizens from carrying handguns, a restriction that remained on the books for 
125 years.” 
http://www.houstonchronicle.com/news/politics/texas/article/First-to-ban-open-carry-Texas-could-be-one-of-5974401.php

And just read this scholarly article from 1999:


Gun Control and the Old West
By Ross Collins
History News Service<http://www2.h-net.msu.edu/~hns/index.html>, Summer 1999.

The smoke has cleared, and we peer down at the victim: another gun control 
bill, shot full ‘o holes. Just like in the old horse operas: a hero again 
shoots to protect a precious freedom, America’s right to bear arms. For many 
who keep a romantic image of America’s past, gun control is like that, a battle 
steeped in American tradition. It calls us back to those legendary days of the 
Old West, when cowboys defended their honor and their horses by way of their 
Colts
.
In fact, most historians see the cowboys of the Old West as THE defining heroes 
of 20th-century America. He’s used to sell everything from soap to hats. He’s 
apparently also an ideal American for anti-gun control groups: gun shows and 
gun advertising promote from a distinctive Old West flavor.

Today’s anti gun control forces count their strongest support among society’s 
leaders from the states that once formed part of the Old West.
The actual Old West pioneers of historical fact viewed matters differently, 
however. They would certainly hail the campaign to protect an American right to 
bear arms, but the record puts them behind "moderate, common-sense measures" 
for gun control—the very kind that President Clinton has proposed.

Pioneer publications show Old West leaders repeatedly arguing in favor of gun 
control. City leaders in the old cattle towns knew from experience what some 
Americans today don't want to believe: a town which allows easy access to guns 
invites trouble.
What these cow town leaders saw intimately in their day-to-day association with 
guns is that more guns in more places caused not greater safety, but greater 
death in an already dangerous wilderness. By the 1880s many in the west were 
fed up with gun violence. Gun control, they contended, was absolutely 
essential, and the remedy advocated usually was usually no less than a total 
ban on pistol-packing.
The editor of the Black Hills Daily Times of Dakota Territory in 1884, called 
the idea of carrying firearms into the city a “dangerous practice,” not only to 
others, but to the packer himself. He emphasized his point with the headline, 
"Perforated by His Own Pistol."
The editor of the Montana’s Yellowstone Journal acknowledged four years earlier 
that Americans have "the right to bear arms," but he contended that guns have 
to be regulated. As for cowboys carrying pistols, a dispatch from Laramie’s 
Northwest Stock Journal in 1884, reported, "We see many cowboys fitting up for 
the spring and summer work. They all seem to think it absolutely necessary to 
have a revolver. Of all foolish notions this is the most absurd."

Cowboy president Theodore Roosevelt recalled with approval that as a Dakota 
Territory ranch owner, his town, at the least, allowed "no shooting in the 
streets." The editor of that town's newspaper, The Bad Lands Cow Boy of Medora, 
demanded that gun control be even tighter than that, however. Like leaders in 
Miles City and many other cow towns, he wanted to see guns banned entirely 
within the city limits. A.T. Packard in August 1885 called "packing a gun" a 
"senseless custom," and noted about a month later that "As a protection, it is 
t

Re: [AFMUG] WAY OT: Concealed Carry handguns - which to buy and why

I think that's pretty much it yeah - except that an AR with a small
magazine isn't okay either... because it looks scary and stuff.

On Mon, Dec 7, 2015 at 7:02 PM, Chuck McCown  wrote:

> On the assault rifle issue, are we just arguing about magazine size?
>
> Or does it need a handle on top and a pistol grip?
> How does a BAR differ from an AR?  Assuming they are the same caliber.
> BAR is OK because it only shoots deer, but the AR is for shooting people?
> Wood stock good, green metal and plastic bad?
>
> Semi automatic deer hunting rifles are OK, right?
>
> Is this a distinction without a difference?
>
> *From:* Sean Heskett 
> *Sent:* Monday, December 07, 2015 3:31 PM
> *To:* af@afmug.com
> *Subject:* Re: [AFMUG] WAY OT: Concealed Carry handguns - which to buy
> and why
>
> i have a Glock23 .40cal works great but it's not quite a "conceal carry"
> size.  I have it (unloaded and trigger locked) in my survival pack that
> stays in my airplane incase of an emergency landing in the back country ;-)
>
> i'm also a Progressive Libtard (registered independent) that thinks we
> should ban assault rifles and large magazines just as we have banned hand
> grenades, bombs, rocket launchers and other military style/grade weapons.
> I've had my Hunter's safety card since I was 12 and I also went to high
> school next to Columbine in CO.  My younger sister had friends who died in
> the attack.
>
> 2 cents.
>
> -Sean
>
>
> On Mon, Dec 7, 2015 at 3:01 PM, James Howard  wrote:
>
>> It wasn’t just the backstrap that bothered me.  Mostly the diamond
>> pattern just didn’t feel good in my hands.  I just did a bit of looking now
>> though and it looks like there are some options for fixing that.  I might
>> have to look into them again.  I really like the Sig P938 so far though.
>>
>>
>>
>> I missed your comment about Glock fanboys.  Shocking we haven’t had any
>> so far but the thread devolved into politics from a simple question of what
>> brand/model of pistol we like.  For the record, I’ve yet to meet a Glock
>> that I’d want to own.
>>
>>
>>
>> *From:* Af [mailto:af-boun...@afmug.com] *On Behalf Of *Josh Reynolds
>> *Sent:* Monday, December 07, 2015 11:08 AM
>> *To:* af@afmug.com
>> *Subject:* Re: [AFMUG] WAY OT: Concealed Carry handguns - which to buy
>> and why
>>
>>
>>
>> XDS has replaceable grip backstraps.
>>
>>
>>
>> On Mon, Dec 7, 2015 at 11:04 AM, James Howard  wrote:
>>
>> Sig P938 is 9mm and almost exactly the same size as a P238.  I’ve got the
>> SAS model (anti snag).  I’ve also got a S&W M&P Shield in 9mm and have
>> looked at the Springfield XDS many times.  I just can’t get over the fact
>> that I don’t like the grips on the XDS.  Prime reason to go with the XDS is
>> that you can get it in 45ACP.  There are a lot of cheaper brands out there
>> too.
>>
>>
>>
>> If you have a place where you can do it, go and test fire all the
>> different options.  My father-in-law bought a Glock 36 because several
>> people told him how great they were.  The problem is that it doesn’t fit
>> his hand well at all and the trigger digs into his finger so he shoots
>> terrible with it.  His accuracy is greatly improved using my M&P Shield.
>>
>>
>>
>> No matter what you get though.  A major key to carrying it safely is
>> practice and being comfortable with it.
>>
>>
>>
>> *From:* Af [mailto:af-boun...@afmug.com] *On Behalf Of *Simon Westlake
>> *Sent:* Monday, December 07, 2015 10:09 AM
>> *To:* af@afmug.com
>> *Subject:* Re: [AFMUG] WAY OT: Concealed Carry handguns - which to buy
>> and why
>>
>>
>>
>> That was one thing I forgot to mention with the P238.. it has a manual
>> safety as well, if that's important to you. I personally don't really care,
>> but it's another good point.
>>
>> On 12/7/2015 10:07 AM, Jeremy wrote:
>>
>> A lot of people are carrying a gun that has no safety.  The safety is
>> released by squeezing the trigger, essentially.  I have kids, and although
>> I plan to keep my gun far away from them, I cannot on a clear conscience
>> carry a gun with no safety.  I have been considering a revolver.  My bro
>> has a CC and he recommends something smaller, so it doesn't jab you in the
>> side whenever you sit down.  I am still looking for the right gun for a
>> CC.  I've already had a gun pulled on my at a job.
>>
>>
>>
>> On Mon, Dec 7, 2015 at 9:03 AM, Paul McCall

Re: [AFMUG] WAY OT: Concealed Carry handguns - which to buy and why

On the assault rifle issue, are we just arguing about magazine size?

Or does it need a handle on top and a pistol grip?
How does a BAR differ from an AR?  Assuming they are the same caliber.
BAR is OK because it only shoots deer, but the AR is for shooting people?
Wood stock good, green metal and plastic bad?

Semi automatic deer hunting rifles are OK, right?  

Is this a distinction without a difference?

From: Sean Heskett 
Sent: Monday, December 07, 2015 3:31 PM
To: af@afmug.com 
Subject: Re: [AFMUG] WAY OT: Concealed Carry handguns - which to buy and why

i have a Glock23 .40cal works great but it's not quite a "conceal carry" size.  
I have it (unloaded and trigger locked) in my survival pack that stays in my 
airplane incase of an emergency landing in the back country ;-) 

i'm also a Progressive Libtard (registered independent) that thinks we should 
ban assault rifles and large magazines just as we have banned hand grenades, 
bombs, rocket launchers and other military style/grade weapons.  I've had my 
Hunter's safety card since I was 12 and I also went to high school next to 
Columbine in CO.  My younger sister had friends who died in the attack.

2 cents.

-Sean


On Mon, Dec 7, 2015 at 3:01 PM, James Howard  wrote:

  It wasn’t just the backstrap that bothered me.  Mostly the diamond pattern 
just didn’t feel good in my hands.  I just did a bit of looking now though and 
it looks like there are some options for fixing that.  I might have to look 
into them again.  I really like the Sig P938 so far though.



  I missed your comment about Glock fanboys.  Shocking we haven’t had any so 
far but the thread devolved into politics from a simple question of what 
brand/model of pistol we like.  For the record, I’ve yet to meet a Glock that 
I’d want to own. 



  From: Af [mailto:af-boun...@afmug.com] On Behalf Of Josh Reynolds
  Sent: Monday, December 07, 2015 11:08 AM
  To: af@afmug.com
  Subject: Re: [AFMUG] WAY OT: Concealed Carry handguns - which to buy and why



  XDS has replaceable grip backstraps.



  On Mon, Dec 7, 2015 at 11:04 AM, James Howard  wrote:

  Sig P938 is 9mm and almost exactly the same size as a P238.  I’ve got the SAS 
model (anti snag).  I’ve also got a S&W M&P Shield in 9mm and have looked at 
the Springfield XDS many times.  I just can’t get over the fact that I don’t 
like the grips on the XDS.  Prime reason to go with the XDS is that you can get 
it in 45ACP.  There are a lot of cheaper brands out there too.  



  If you have a place where you can do it, go and test fire all the different 
options.  My father-in-law bought a Glock 36 because several people told him 
how great they were.  The problem is that it doesn’t fit his hand well at all 
and the trigger digs into his finger so he shoots terrible with it.  His 
accuracy is greatly improved using my M&P Shield.  



  No matter what you get though.  A major key to carrying it safely is practice 
and being comfortable with it.



  From: Af [mailto:af-boun...@afmug.com] On Behalf Of Simon Westlake
  Sent: Monday, December 07, 2015 10:09 AM
  To: af@afmug.com
  Subject: Re: [AFMUG] WAY OT: Concealed Carry handguns - which to buy and why



  That was one thing I forgot to mention with the P238.. it has a manual safety 
as well, if that's important to you. I personally don't really care, but it's 
another good point.

  On 12/7/2015 10:07 AM, Jeremy wrote:

A lot of people are carrying a gun that has no safety.  The safety is 
released by squeezing the trigger, essentially.  I have kids, and although I 
plan to keep my gun far away from them, I cannot on a clear conscience carry a 
gun with no safety.  I have been considering a revolver.  My bro has a CC and 
he recommends something smaller, so it doesn't jab you in the side whenever you 
sit down.  I am still looking for the right gun for a CC.  I've already had a 
gun pulled on my at a job.



On Mon, Dec 7, 2015 at 9:03 AM, Paul McCall  wrote:

I am getting my CC permit (Florida) in a week or so.  I took an absolutely 
excellent class from the main trainer at the Brevard county sheriff’s office.  



Now, I am looking for an excellent CC gun to use, as my long barrel Colt 38 
is not a good fit for that.  



I am certain that this group probably has a LOT of expertise (and many 
opinions) on THE gun to use.



J   



Paul McCall, Pres.

PDMNet / Florida Broadband 

658 Old Dixie Highway

Vero Beach, FL 32962

772-564-6800 office

772-473-0352 cell

www.pdmnet.com

pa...@pdmnet.net







-- Simon WestlakeSkype: Simon_SonarEmail: simon@sonar.softwarePhone: (702) 
447-1247---Sonar Software IncThe next generation of ISP 
billing and OSShttps://sonar.software
--

  Total Control Panel
 Log

Re: [AFMUG] WAY OT: Concealed Carry handguns - which to buy and why

I have many evil black rifles. They're no different than a Mini-14, M1A, 
etc. Politicians are just stupid and do not understand how things 
function. Just because it looks like a military weapon doesn't mean it 
is one.


On 12/7/2015 4:52 PM, Adam Moffett wrote:
My problem with assault rifle ban's to date is that they really ought 
to use some sort of smart criteria to decide what exactly it is they 
want to ban.  The 1994 law banned specific guns that looked scary or 
had scary looking accessories.  (flash suppressor so dangerous!)


In the military use of the term "assault rifle", full auto is the 
feature that makes it "assault" and not just a rifle, but full auto 
has been very hard to get for a very long time.


I could drop into Walmart right now and buy a very dangerous semi-auto 
.277 or .30-06, and I think it might be the case that the only thing 
making it not an "assault rife" in some minds is that it doesn't look 
as tactical as an AR-15.


I am *not* against restricting access to a weapon that is deemed too 
dangerous for untrained civilian psychos who might go berserk with it, 
but they need to use real performance or design characteristics when 
they come up with what it is they want to ban. Just sayin'.




On 12/7/2015 5:31 PM, Sean Heskett wrote:
i have a Glock23 .40cal works great but it's not quite a "conceal 
carry" size.  I have it (unloaded and trigger locked) in my survival 
pack that stays in my airplane incase of an emergency landing in the 
back country ;-)


i'm also a Progressive Libtard (registered independent) that thinks 
we should ban assault rifles and large magazines just as we have 
banned hand grenades, bombs, rocket launchers and other military 
style/grade weapons.  I've had my Hunter's safety card since I was 12 
and I also went to high school next to Columbine in CO.  My younger 
sister had friends who died in the attack.


2 cents.

-Sean


On Mon, Dec 7, 2015 at 3:01 PM, James Howard <mailto:ja...@litewire.net>> wrote:


It wasn’t just the backstrap that bothered me. Mostly the diamond
pattern just didn’t feel good in my hands.  I just did a bit of
looking now though and it looks like there are some options for
fixing that.  I might have to look into them again.  I really
like the Sig P938 so far though.

I missed your comment about Glock fanboys.  Shocking we haven’t
had any so far but the thread devolved into politics from a
simple question of what brand/model of pistol we like.  For the
record, I’ve yet to meet a Glock that I’d want to own.

*From:*Af [mailto:af-boun...@afmug.com
<mailto:af-boun...@afmug.com>] *On Behalf Of *Josh Reynolds
*Sent:* Monday, December 07, 2015 11:08 AM
*To:* af@afmug.com <mailto:af@afmug.com>
*Subject:* Re: [AFMUG] WAY OT: Concealed Carry handguns - which
to buy and why

XDS has replaceable grip backstraps.

On Mon, Dec 7, 2015 at 11:04 AM, James Howard mailto:ja...@litewire.net>> wrote:

Sig P938 is 9mm and almost exactly the same size as a P238.  I’ve
got the SAS model (anti snag).  I’ve also got a S&W M&P Shield in
9mm and have looked at the Springfield XDS many times.  I just
can’t get over the fact that I don’t like the grips on the XDS. 
Prime reason to go with the XDS is that you can get it in 45ACP. 
There are a lot of cheaper brands out there too.


If you have a place where you can do it, go and test fire all the
different options.  My father-in-law bought a Glock 36 because
several people told him how great they were.  The problem is that
it doesn’t fit his hand well at all and the trigger digs into his
finger so he shoots terrible with it.  His accuracy is greatly
improved using my M&P Shield.

No matter what you get though.  A major key to carrying it safely
is practice and being comfortable with it.

*From:*Af [mailto:af-boun...@afmug.com
<mailto:af-boun...@afmug.com>] *On Behalf Of *Simon Westlake
*Sent:* Monday, December 07, 2015 10:09 AM
    *To:* af@afmug.com <mailto:af@afmug.com>
*Subject:* Re: [AFMUG] WAY OT: Concealed Carry handguns - which
to buy and why

That was one thing I forgot to mention with the P238.. it has a
manual safety as well, if that's important to you. I personally
don't really care, but it's another good point.

On 12/7/2015 10:07 AM, Jeremy wrote:

A lot of people are carrying a gun that has no safety. The
safety is released by squeezing the trigger, essentially.  I
have kids, and although I plan to keep my gun far away from
them, I cannot on a clear conscience carry a gun with no
safety.  I have been considering a revolver.  My bro has a CC
and he recommends something smaller, so it doesn't jab you in
the side whenever

Re: [AFMUG] WAY OT: Concealed Carry handguns - which to buy and why

My problem with assault rifle ban's to date is that they really ought to 
use some sort of smart criteria to decide what exactly it is they want 
to ban.  The 1994 law banned specific guns that looked scary or had 
scary looking accessories.  (flash suppressor so dangerous!)


In the military use of the term "assault rifle", full auto is the 
feature that makes it "assault" and not just a rifle, but full auto has 
been very hard to get for a very long time.


I could drop into Walmart right now and buy a very dangerous semi-auto 
.277 or .30-06, and I think it might be the case that the only thing 
making it not an "assault rife" in some minds is that it doesn't look as 
tactical as an AR-15.


I am *not* against restricting access to a weapon that is deemed too 
dangerous for untrained civilian psychos who might go berserk with it, 
but they need to use real performance or design characteristics when 
they come up with what it is they want to ban. Just sayin'.




On 12/7/2015 5:31 PM, Sean Heskett wrote:
i have a Glock23 .40cal works great but it's not quite a "conceal 
carry" size.  I have it (unloaded and trigger locked) in my survival 
pack that stays in my airplane incase of an emergency landing in the 
back country ;-)


i'm also a Progressive Libtard (registered independent) that thinks we 
should ban assault rifles and large magazines just as we have banned 
hand grenades, bombs, rocket launchers and other military style/grade 
weapons.  I've had my Hunter's safety card since I was 12 and I also 
went to high school next to Columbine in CO.  My younger sister had 
friends who died in the attack.


2 cents.

-Sean


On Mon, Dec 7, 2015 at 3:01 PM, James Howard <mailto:ja...@litewire.net>> wrote:


It wasn’t just the backstrap that bothered me.  Mostly the diamond
pattern just didn’t feel good in my hands.  I just did a bit of
looking now though and it looks like there are some options for
fixing that.  I might have to look into them again.  I really like
the Sig P938 so far though.

I missed your comment about Glock fanboys.  Shocking we haven’t
had any so far but the thread devolved into politics from a simple
question of what brand/model of pistol we like.  For the record,
I’ve yet to meet a Glock that I’d want to own.

*From:*Af [mailto:af-boun...@afmug.com
<mailto:af-boun...@afmug.com>] *On Behalf Of *Josh Reynolds
*Sent:* Monday, December 07, 2015 11:08 AM
*To:* af@afmug.com <mailto:af@afmug.com>
*Subject:* Re: [AFMUG] WAY OT: Concealed Carry handguns - which to
buy and why

XDS has replaceable grip backstraps.

On Mon, Dec 7, 2015 at 11:04 AM, James Howard mailto:ja...@litewire.net>> wrote:

Sig P938 is 9mm and almost exactly the same size as a P238.  I’ve
got the SAS model (anti snag).  I’ve also got a S&W M&P Shield in
9mm and have looked at the Springfield XDS many times.  I just
can’t get over the fact that I don’t like the grips on the XDS. 
Prime reason to go with the XDS is that you can get it in 45ACP. 
There are a lot of cheaper brands out there too.


If you have a place where you can do it, go and test fire all the
different options. My father-in-law bought a Glock 36 because
several people told him how great they were.  The problem is that
it doesn’t fit his hand well at all and the trigger digs into his
finger so he shoots terrible with it.  His accuracy is greatly
improved using my M&P Shield.

No matter what you get though.  A major key to carrying it safely
is practice and being comfortable with it.

*From:*Af [mailto:af-boun...@afmug.com
<mailto:af-boun...@afmug.com>] *On Behalf Of *Simon Westlake
    *Sent:* Monday, December 07, 2015 10:09 AM
    *To:* af@afmug.com <mailto:af@afmug.com>
*Subject:* Re: [AFMUG] WAY OT: Concealed Carry handguns - which to
buy and why

That was one thing I forgot to mention with the P238.. it has a
manual safety as well, if that's important to you. I personally
don't really care, but it's another good point.

On 12/7/2015 10:07 AM, Jeremy wrote:

A lot of people are carrying a gun that has no safety.  The
safety is released by squeezing the trigger, essentially.  I
have kids, and although I plan to keep my gun far away from
them, I cannot on a clear conscience carry a gun with no
safety. I have been considering a revolver.  My bro has a CC
and he recommends something smaller, so it doesn't jab you in
the side whenever you sit down.  I am still looking for the
right gun for a CC. I've already had a gun pulled on my at a job.

On Mon, Dec 7, 2015 at 9:03 AM, Paul McCall mailto:pa...@pdmnet.net>> wrote:

I am getting my CC permit (Florida) in a week

Re: [AFMUG] WAY OT: Concealed Carry handguns - which to buy and why

2015-12-07 Thread Sean Heskett

i have a Glock23 .40cal works great but it's not quite a "conceal carry"
size.  I have it (unloaded and trigger locked) in my survival pack that
stays in my airplane incase of an emergency landing in the back country ;-)

i'm also a Progressive Libtard (registered independent) that thinks we
should ban assault rifles and large magazines just as we have banned hand
grenades, bombs, rocket launchers and other military style/grade weapons.
I've had my Hunter's safety card since I was 12 and I also went to high
school next to Columbine in CO.  My younger sister had friends who died in
the attack.

2 cents.

-Sean


On Mon, Dec 7, 2015 at 3:01 PM, James Howard  wrote:

> It wasn’t just the backstrap that bothered me.  Mostly the diamond pattern
> just didn’t feel good in my hands.  I just did a bit of looking now though
> and it looks like there are some options for fixing that.  I might have to
> look into them again.  I really like the Sig P938 so far though.
>
>
>
> I missed your comment about Glock fanboys.  Shocking we haven’t had any so
> far but the thread devolved into politics from a simple question of what
> brand/model of pistol we like.  For the record, I’ve yet to meet a Glock
> that I’d want to own.
>
>
>
> *From:* Af [mailto:af-boun...@afmug.com] *On Behalf Of *Josh Reynolds
> *Sent:* Monday, December 07, 2015 11:08 AM
> *To:* af@afmug.com
> *Subject:* Re: [AFMUG] WAY OT: Concealed Carry handguns - which to buy
> and why
>
>
>
> XDS has replaceable grip backstraps.
>
>
>
> On Mon, Dec 7, 2015 at 11:04 AM, James Howard  wrote:
>
> Sig P938 is 9mm and almost exactly the same size as a P238.  I’ve got the
> SAS model (anti snag).  I’ve also got a S&W M&P Shield in 9mm and have
> looked at the Springfield XDS many times.  I just can’t get over the fact
> that I don’t like the grips on the XDS.  Prime reason to go with the XDS is
> that you can get it in 45ACP.  There are a lot of cheaper brands out there
> too.
>
>
>
> If you have a place where you can do it, go and test fire all the
> different options.  My father-in-law bought a Glock 36 because several
> people told him how great they were.  The problem is that it doesn’t fit
> his hand well at all and the trigger digs into his finger so he shoots
> terrible with it.  His accuracy is greatly improved using my M&P Shield.
>
>
>
> No matter what you get though.  A major key to carrying it safely is
> practice and being comfortable with it.
>
>
>
> *From:* Af [mailto:af-boun...@afmug.com] *On Behalf Of *Simon Westlake
> *Sent:* Monday, December 07, 2015 10:09 AM
> *To:* af@afmug.com
> *Subject:* Re: [AFMUG] WAY OT: Concealed Carry handguns - which to buy
> and why
>
>
>
> That was one thing I forgot to mention with the P238.. it has a manual
> safety as well, if that's important to you. I personally don't really care,
> but it's another good point.
>
> On 12/7/2015 10:07 AM, Jeremy wrote:
>
> A lot of people are carrying a gun that has no safety.  The safety is
> released by squeezing the trigger, essentially.  I have kids, and although
> I plan to keep my gun far away from them, I cannot on a clear conscience
> carry a gun with no safety.  I have been considering a revolver.  My bro
> has a CC and he recommends something smaller, so it doesn't jab you in the
> side whenever you sit down.  I am still looking for the right gun for a
> CC.  I've already had a gun pulled on my at a job.
>
>
>
> On Mon, Dec 7, 2015 at 9:03 AM, Paul McCall  wrote:
>
> I am getting my CC permit (Florida) in a week or so.  I took an absolutely
> excellent class from the main trainer at the Brevard county sheriff’s
> office.
>
>
>
> Now, I am looking for an excellent CC gun to use, as my long barrel Colt
> 38 is not a good fit for that.
>
>
>
> I am certain that this group probably has a LOT of expertise (and many
> opinions) on THE gun to use.
>
>
>
> J
>
>
>
> Paul McCall, Pres.
>
> PDMNet / Florida Broadband
>
> 658 Old Dixie Highway
>
> Vero Beach, FL 32962
>
> 772-564-6800 office
>
> 772-473-0352 cell
>
> www.pdmnet.com
>
> pa...@pdmnet.net
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
> --
>
> Simon Westlake
>
> Skype: Simon_Sonar
>
> Email: simon@sonar.software
>
> Phone: (702) 447-1247
>
> ---
>
> Sonar Software Inc
>
> The next generation of ISP billing and OSS
>
> https://sonar.software
>
> --
>
> *Total Control Panel*
>
> Login <https://asp.reflexion.net/login?domain=litewire.net>
>
> To: ja...@litewire.net
> <https://asp.reflexion.net/address-

Re: [AFMUG] WAY OT: Concealed Carry handguns - which to buy and why

2015-12-07 Thread James Howard

It wasn’t just the backstrap that bothered me.  Mostly the diamond pattern just 
didn’t feel good in my hands.  I just did a bit of looking now though and it 
looks like there are some options for fixing that.  I might have to look into 
them again.  I really like the Sig P938 so far though.

I missed your comment about Glock fanboys.  Shocking we haven’t had any so far 
but the thread devolved into politics from a simple question of what 
brand/model of pistol we like.  For the record, I’ve yet to meet a Glock that 
I’d want to own.

From: Af [mailto:af-boun...@afmug.com] On Behalf Of Josh Reynolds
Sent: Monday, December 07, 2015 11:08 AM
To: af@afmug.com
Subject: Re: [AFMUG] WAY OT: Concealed Carry handguns - which to buy and why

XDS has replaceable grip backstraps.

On Mon, Dec 7, 2015 at 11:04 AM, James Howard 
mailto:ja...@litewire.net>> wrote:
Sig P938 is 9mm and almost exactly the same size as a P238.  I’ve got the SAS 
model (anti snag).  I’ve also got a S&W M&P Shield in 9mm and have looked at 
the Springfield XDS many times.  I just can’t get over the fact that I don’t 
like the grips on the XDS.  Prime reason to go with the XDS is that you can get 
it in 45ACP.  There are a lot of cheaper brands out there too.

If you have a place where you can do it, go and test fire all the different 
options.  My father-in-law bought a Glock 36 because several people told him 
how great they were.  The problem is that it doesn’t fit his hand well at all 
and the trigger digs into his finger so he shoots terrible with it.  His 
accuracy is greatly improved using my M&P Shield.

No matter what you get though.  A major key to carrying it safely is practice 
and being comfortable with it.

From: Af [mailto:af-boun...@afmug.com<mailto:af-boun...@afmug.com>] On Behalf 
Of Simon Westlake
Sent: Monday, December 07, 2015 10:09 AM
To: af@afmug.com<mailto:af@afmug.com>
Subject: Re: [AFMUG] WAY OT: Concealed Carry handguns - which to buy and why

That was one thing I forgot to mention with the P238.. it has a manual safety 
as well, if that's important to you. I personally don't really care, but it's 
another good point.
On 12/7/2015 10:07 AM, Jeremy wrote:
A lot of people are carrying a gun that has no safety.  The safety is released 
by squeezing the trigger, essentially.  I have kids, and although I plan to 
keep my gun far away from them, I cannot on a clear conscience carry a gun with 
no safety.  I have been considering a revolver.  My bro has a CC and he 
recommends something smaller, so it doesn't jab you in the side whenever you 
sit down.  I am still looking for the right gun for a CC.  I've already had a 
gun pulled on my at a job.

On Mon, Dec 7, 2015 at 9:03 AM, Paul McCall 
mailto:pa...@pdmnet.net>> wrote:
I am getting my CC permit (Florida) in a week or so.  I took an absolutely 
excellent class from the main trainer at the Brevard county sheriff’s office.

Now, I am looking for an excellent CC gun to use, as my long barrel Colt 38 is 
not a good fit for that.

I am certain that this group probably has a LOT of expertise (and many 
opinions) on THE gun to use.

☺

Paul McCall, Pres.
PDMNet / Florida Broadband
658 Old Dixie Highway
Vero Beach, FL 32962
772-564-6800 office
772-473-0352 cell
www.pdmnet.com<http://www.pdmnet.com/>
pa...@pdmnet.net<mailto:pa...@pdmnet.net>




--

Simon Westlake

Skype: Simon_Sonar

Email: simon@sonar.software<mailto:simon@sonar.software>

Phone: (702) 447-1247

---

Sonar Software Inc

The next generation of ISP billing and OSS

https://sonar.software


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Re: [AFMUG] WAY OT: Concealed Carry handguns - which to buy and why

2015-12-07 Thread tho...@fourway.net

I've got an Ruger LCR that I really like for concealed carry because its cheap 
enough not to worry about, small enough to hide, and reliable enough for my 
life to depend on it.I'm kinda partial to wheel guns for personal 
protection though.  

There are many choices now for this style of gun.  Are you gonna carry IWB or 
OWB?  What are your preferences/experience with firearms?

Tyler
 

--- Original Message ---
>From: Jon Paul Kelley[mailto:jpkel...@ckswireless.com]
Sent: 12/7/2015 3:12:52 PM
To  : af@afmug.com
Cc  : 
Subject : RE: Re: [AFMUG] WAY OT: Concealed Carry handguns - which to buy and 
why

 Getting back to the original question, I purchased the S&W M&P Shield 
chambered in .40 S&W. Nice little hand gun and shoots well using 165 or 180 gr 
ammo, readily available from WalMart or any other place that sells ammo. 
Slightly more expensive than 9MM ammo, but only by a penny or two per round. 
Jon Paul KelleyCKS Wireless From: Af [mailto:af-boun...@afmug.com] On Behalf Of 
Joshaven Mailing Lists
Sent: Monday, December 07, 2015 1:41 PM
To: af@afmug.com
Subject: Re: [AFMUG] WAY OT: Concealed Carry handguns - which to buy and why 
I’m pretty fond of my Kimber 
Solohttp://www.gunsandammo.com/reviews/solo-act-kimber-solo-9mm-review/ It’s 
easy to shoot, reliable and best of all it is 
very slender and easy to carry.  Too bad that it’s not cheap too.   
Sincerely,Joshaven Potter
MTCNA, MTCRE, MTCWE, MTCTCE, UACA
Google Hangouts: yourt...@gmail.com
Cell & SMS: 1-517-607-9370supp...@joshaven.com   On Dec 7, 2015, at 11:12 AM, 
Darin Steffl  wrote: 
https://us.glock.com/products/model/g42  If you just want a pistol to conceal 
and carry, I would suggest 
the Glock 42 which I carry everyday. It isn't too big or heavy and will still 
do plenty of damage in a self defense situation with hollow point ammo. It 
certainly doesn't carry that much ammo, 7 total including one in chamber. 
But I'm not planning on having a shootout with anyone. I'm sure you'll hear 
from other guys who carry a 45 and open carry them with extra mags. I'm not 
"that" guy who is a conservative, FOX loving republican, gun nut who thinks 
Obama is out to steal our guns. If you honestly just want something to protect 
you in most situation, stay smaller like 380 or 9mm but not much bigger than 
that. I've also carried the S&W Bodyguard 380 with built-in laser. It 
conceals even better than the Glock does.   On Mon, Dec 7, 2015 at 10:03 AM, 
Paul McCall  wrote:I am getting my CC permit (Florida) in a 
week or so.  I took an absolutely excellent class from the main trainer at 
the Brevard county sheriff’s office.   Now, I am looking for an excellent CC 
gun to use, as my long barrel Colt 38 is not a good fit for that.   I am 
certain that this group probably has a LOT of expertise (and many opinions) on 
THE gun to use. JPaul McCall, Pres.PDMNet / Florida Broadband 658 Old Dixie 
HighwayVero Beach, FL 32962772-564-6800 office772-473-0352 
cellwww.pdmnet.compa...@pdmnet.net 
 -- Darin StefflMinnesota WiFiwww.mnwifi.com507-634-WiFi Like us on Facebook

Re: [AFMUG] WAY OT: Concealed Carry handguns - which to buy and why

2015-12-07 Thread Jon Paul Kelley

Getting back to the original question, I purchased the S&W M&P Shield chambered 
in .40 S&W. Nice little hand gun and shoots well using 165 or 180 gr ammo, 
readily available from WalMart or any other place that sells ammo. Slightly 
more expensive than 9MM ammo, but only by a penny or two per round.

 

Jon Paul Kelley

CKS Wireless

 

From: Af [mailto:af-boun...@afmug.com] On Behalf Of Joshaven Mailing Lists
Sent: Monday, December 07, 2015 1:41 PM
To: af@afmug.com
Subject: Re: [AFMUG] WAY OT: Concealed Carry handguns - which to buy and why

 

I’m pretty fond of my Kimber Solo

http://www.gunsandammo.com/reviews/solo-act-kimber-solo-9mm-review/

 

It’s easy to shoot, reliable and best of all it is very slender and easy to 
carry.  Too bad that it’s not cheap too.

 

 

 

Sincerely,

Joshaven Potter
MTCNA, MTCRE, MTCWE, MTCTCE, UACA
Google Hangouts: yourt...@gmail.com
Cell & SMS: 1-517-607-9370

supp...@joshaven.com

 

 

 

On Dec 7, 2015, at 11:12 AM, Darin Steffl  wrote:

 

https://us.glock.com/products/model/g42

 

 

If you just want a pistol to conceal and carry, I would suggest the Glock 42 
which I carry everyday. It isn't too big or heavy and will still do plenty of 
damage in a self defense situation with hollow point ammo. It certainly doesn't 
carry that much ammo, 7 total including one in chamber. But I'm not planning on 
having a shootout with anyone.

 

I'm sure you'll hear from other guys who carry a 45 and open carry them with 
extra mags. I'm not "that" guy who is a conservative, FOX loving republican, 
gun nut who thinks Obama is out to steal our guns. If you honestly just want 
something to protect you in most situation, stay smaller like 380 or 9mm but 
not much bigger than that.

 

I've also carried the S&W Bodyguard 380 with built-in laser. It conceals even 
better than the Glock does.

 

 

 

On Mon, Dec 7, 2015 at 10:03 AM, Paul McCall  wrote:

I am getting my CC permit (Florida) in a week or so.  I took an absolutely 
excellent class from the main trainer at the Brevard county sheriff’s office.  

 

Now, I am looking for an excellent CC gun to use, as my long barrel Colt 38 is 
not a good fit for that.  

 

I am certain that this group probably has a LOT of expertise (and many 
opinions) on THE gun to use.

 

J   

 

Paul McCall, Pres.

PDMNet / Florida Broadband 

658 Old Dixie Highway

Vero Beach, FL 32962

772-564-6800 office

772-473-0352 cell

www.pdmnet.com <http://www.pdmnet.com/> 

pa...@pdmnet.net

 





 

-- 

Darin Steffl

Minnesota WiFi

www.mnwifi.com <http://www.mnwifi.com/> 

507-634-WiFi

 <http://www.facebook.com/minnesotawifi>  Like us on Facebook 
<http://www.facebook.com/minnesotawifi>

Re: [AFMUG] WAY OT: Concealed Carry handguns - which to buy and why

2015-12-07 Thread Joshaven Mailing Lists

The difference between a .40, .45 & 9mm is minor.  if you miss vitals then it 
is not a killing shot and if you hit vitals any of them are completely deadly.  
The .45ACP offers a tiny bit more width so it is “easier” to just clip a vital 
thing but I’d rather have a few extra shots then a few extra thousands of an 
inch of diameter in a wound.   And don’t believe any of the “knockdown” 
arguments.  Every action has an equal and opposite reaction… if the gun doesn’t 
knock you down it won’t the other person either.  People have been shot by much 
much bigger bullets then found in any handgun and fallen toward the shooter.  
If someone is nocked down it is because they fell.  My bedside handgun is a 
SpringField XDM 9mm that holds 20 rounds (19+1)… I would much rather have that 
then a 6+1 .45ACP, you can always carry extra magazines for either but 20 
rounds should get me to my shotgun even if I am just scarring a supposed home 
invader with bangs.

Get the gun you enjoy and if it is for carry make sure it’s comfortable to keep 
on you.  Even a .22 magnum is a deadly gun and much better then a hand cannon 
that you left at home because it is uncomfortable.

Sincerely,
Joshaven Potter
MTCNA, MTCRE, MTCWE, MTCTCE, UACA
Google Hangouts: yourt...@gmail.com
Cell & SMS: 1-517-607-9370
supp...@joshaven.com



> On Dec 7, 2015, at 12:02 PM, Josh Reynolds  wrote:
> 
> I would agree that "bigger is better" if the energy transfer and temporal 
> cavity were that much different between 9mm and 45ACP, but in reality, they 
> are not.
> 
> Now if you step up to a hand cannon like a 44mag or .500SW, that's a bit 
> different... but good luck concealed carrying those on a hot summer day.
> 
> I'll leave you with this, for some "light reading" on handgun calibers, 
> temporal cavities, rounds to incapacitate, etc. 
> http://www.buckeyefirearms.org/alternate-look-handgun-stopping-power 
> <http://www.buckeyefirearms.org/alternate-look-handgun-stopping-power>
> 
> On Mon, Dec 7, 2015 at 10:38 AM, Cameron Crum  <mailto:cc...@wispmon.com>> wrote:
> I carry a Colt 45 Defender. It is relatively small for a 45. An NSA buddy of 
> mine, who had been in several close range shootouts in his career asked me 
> one time why I carry a 45. I told him that I'd never been in a firefight. I 
> don't train in high pressure situations, and while I'm proficient at the 
> range, I don't train for situations like he did or the cops do. If I am in a 
> situation where I have to pull a gun, my adrenaline is going to be pumping 
> like crazy, and I may be moving to cover or trying to stay out of the way of 
> bullets myself. I may only hit what I'm shooting at once if I'm lucky. I want 
> the once to count. 
> 
> On Mon, Dec 7, 2015 at 10:30 AM, That One Guy /sarcasm 
> mailto:thatoneguyst...@gmail.com>> wrote:
> define legally
> If a bear shits in the woods, will tight shoes cause callouses?
> 
> I dont know why any of you want these killing machines, the government has 
> guns, and we pay them to protect us. Your gun, if you hand it to a bad guy, 
> is 100% of the time going to be in the bad guys possession, and if that bad 
> guy happens to be 5, youve just given a child a handgun, are you saying we 
> should arm children? Why are you trying to kill children, children are the 
> future, teach them well and let them lead the way. 
> 
> 
> Imperialist scum be furthering decline humanity. Mighty leader will devour 
> you in fear. 
> 
> <12347623_1089257647751059_6729633631911655975_n.jpg>
> 
> 
> On Mon, Dec 7, 2015 at 10:17 AM, Chuck McCown  <mailto:ch...@wbmfg.com>> wrote:
> Can you legally own hand grenades?
>  
> From: Mathew Howard <mailto:mhoward...@gmail.com>
> Sent: Monday, December 07, 2015 9:15 AM
> To: af <mailto:af@afmug.com>
> Subject: Re: [AFMUG] WAY OT: Concealed Carry handguns - which to buy and why
>  
> you do if you want to conceal it... :P
>  
> On Mon, Dec 7, 2015 at 10:14 AM, Chuck McCown  <mailto:ch...@wbmfg.com>> wrote:
> You don’t need a CC to carry a Springfield 30-06
>  
> From: Paul McCall <mailto:pa...@pdmnet.net>
> Sent: Monday, December 07, 2015 9:03 AM
> To: af@afmug.com <mailto:af@afmug.com>
> Subject: [AFMUG] WAY OT: Concealed Carry handguns - which to buy and why
>  
> I am getting my CC permit (Florida) in a week or so.  I took an absolutely 
> excellent class from the main trainer at the Brevard county sheriff’s office. 
> 
>  
> 
> Now, I am looking for an excellent CC gun to use, as my long barrel Colt 38 
> is not a good fit for that. 
> 
>  
> 
> I am certain that this group probably has a LOT of expertise (and many 
> opinions) on THE gun to use.

Re: [AFMUG] WAY OT: Concealed Carry handguns - which to buy and why

Well this thread has gone longer than I thought.  Well here is a point to
ponder sent by a cynical friend of mine...I am sure he got it from someone
else because he would have checked grammar and spelling
On Dec 7, 2015 12:41 PM, "Joshaven Mailing Lists" 
wrote:

> I’m pretty fond of my Kimber Solo
> http://www.gunsandammo.com/reviews/solo-act-kimber-solo-9mm-review/
>
> It’s easy to shoot, reliable and best of all it is very slender and easy
> to carry.  Too bad that it’s not cheap too.
>
>
>
> Sincerely,
> Joshaven Potter
> MTCNA, MTCRE, MTCWE, MTCTCE, UACA
> Google Hangouts: yourt...@gmail.com
> Cell & SMS: 1-517-607-9370
> supp...@joshaven.com
>
>
>
> On Dec 7, 2015, at 11:12 AM, Darin Steffl  wrote:
>
> https://us.glock.com/products/model/g42
>
>
> If you just want a pistol to conceal and carry, I would suggest the Glock
> 42 which I carry everyday. It isn't too big or heavy and will still do
> plenty of damage in a self defense situation with hollow point ammo. It
> certainly doesn't carry that much ammo, 7 total including one in chamber.
> But I'm not planning on having a shootout with anyone.
>
> I'm sure you'll hear from other guys who carry a 45 and open carry them
> with extra mags. I'm not "that" guy who is a conservative, FOX loving
> republican, gun nut who thinks Obama is out to steal our guns. If you
> honestly just want something to protect you in most situation, stay smaller
> like 380 or 9mm but not much bigger than that.
>
> I've also carried the S&W Bodyguard 380 with built-in laser. It conceals
> even better than the Glock does.
>
>
>
> On Mon, Dec 7, 2015 at 10:03 AM, Paul McCall  wrote:
>
>> I am getting my CC permit (Florida) in a week or so.  I took an
>> absolutely excellent class from the main trainer at the Brevard county
>> sheriff’s office.
>>
>>
>>
>> Now, I am looking for an excellent CC gun to use, as my long barrel Colt
>> 38 is not a good fit for that.
>>
>>
>>
>> I am certain that this group probably has a LOT of expertise (and many
>> opinions) on THE gun to use.
>>
>>
>>
>> J
>>
>>
>>
>> Paul McCall, Pres.
>>
>> PDMNet / Florida Broadband
>>
>> 658 Old Dixie Highway
>>
>> Vero Beach, FL 32962
>>
>> 772-564-6800 office
>>
>> 772-473-0352 cell
>>
>> www.pdmnet.com
>>
>> pa...@pdmnet.net
>>
>>
>>
>
>
>
> --
> Darin Steffl
> Minnesota WiFi
> www.mnwifi.com
> 507-634-WiFi
>  Like us on Facebook
> 
>
>
>

Re: [AFMUG] WAY OT: Concealed Carry handguns - which to buy and why

2015-12-07 Thread Joshaven Mailing Lists

I’m pretty fond of my Kimber Solo
http://www.gunsandammo.com/reviews/solo-act-kimber-solo-9mm-review/ 


It’s easy to shoot, reliable and best of all it is very slender and easy to 
carry.  Too bad that it’s not cheap too.



Sincerely,
Joshaven Potter
MTCNA, MTCRE, MTCWE, MTCTCE, UACA
Google Hangouts: yourt...@gmail.com
Cell & SMS: 1-517-607-9370
supp...@joshaven.com



> On Dec 7, 2015, at 11:12 AM, Darin Steffl  wrote:
> 
> https://us.glock.com/products/model/g42 
> 
> 
> 
> If you just want a pistol to conceal and carry, I would suggest the Glock 42 
> which I carry everyday. It isn't too big or heavy and will still do plenty of 
> damage in a self defense situation with hollow point ammo. It certainly 
> doesn't carry that much ammo, 7 total including one in chamber. But I'm not 
> planning on having a shootout with anyone.
> 
> I'm sure you'll hear from other guys who carry a 45 and open carry them with 
> extra mags. I'm not "that" guy who is a conservative, FOX loving republican, 
> gun nut who thinks Obama is out to steal our guns. If you honestly just want 
> something to protect you in most situation, stay smaller like 380 or 9mm but 
> not much bigger than that.
> 
> I've also carried the S&W Bodyguard 380 with built-in laser. It conceals even 
> better than the Glock does.
> 
> 
> 
> On Mon, Dec 7, 2015 at 10:03 AM, Paul McCall  > wrote:
> I am getting my CC permit (Florida) in a week or so.  I took an absolutely 
> excellent class from the main trainer at the Brevard county sheriff’s office. 
>  
> 
>  
> 
> Now, I am looking for an excellent CC gun to use, as my long barrel Colt 38 
> is not a good fit for that. 
> 
>  
> 
> I am certain that this group probably has a LOT of expertise (and many 
> opinions) on THE gun to use.
> 
>  
> 
> J  
> 
>  
> 
> Paul McCall, Pres.
> 
> PDMNet / Florida Broadband
> 
> 658 Old Dixie Highway
> 
> Vero Beach, FL 32962
> 
> 772-564-6800  office
> 
> 772-473-0352  cell
> 
> www.pdmnet.com 
> pa...@pdmnet.net 
>  
> 
> 
> 
> 
> -- 
> Darin Steffl
> Minnesota WiFi
> www.mnwifi.com 
> 507-634-WiFi
>   Like us on Facebook 
>

Re: [AFMUG] WAY OT: Concealed Carry handguns - which to buy and why

Oh, sorry. I of course meant that Steve should be made supreme leader of
the entire world, and all the imperialist scum should be destroyed!

Is that better?

On Mon, Dec 7, 2015 at 1:31 PM, Chuck McCown  wrote:

> He better apologize, we don’t like it when Steve gets angry...
>
> *From:* Sean Heskett 
> *Sent:* Monday, December 07, 2015 12:28 PM
> *To:* af@afmug.com
> *Subject:* Re: [AFMUG] WAY OT: Concealed Carry handguns - which to buy
> and why
>
> are you implying that Steve is not the supreme leader?!?!
>
>
> On Mon, Dec 7, 2015 at 12:24 PM, Mathew Howard 
> wrote:
>
>> I think we should make Steve supreme leader...
>> On Dec 7, 2015 1:05 PM, "Mike Hammett"  wrote:
>>
>>> You come up with some interesting shit.
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>> -
>>> Mike Hammett
>>> Intelligent Computing Solutions
>>> http://www.ics-il.com
>>>
>>> <https://www.facebook.com/ICSIL>
>>> <https://plus.google.com/+IntelligentComputingSolutionsDeKalb>
>>> <https://www.linkedin.com/company/intelligent-computing-solutions>
>>> <https://twitter.com/ICSIL>
>>>
>>> Midwest Internet Exchange
>>> http://www.midwest-ix.com
>>>
>>> <https://www.facebook.com/mdwestix>
>>> <https://www.linkedin.com/company/midwest-internet-exchange>
>>> <https://twitter.com/mdwestix>
>>> --
>>> *From: *"That One Guy /sarcasm" 
>>> *To: *af@afmug.com
>>> *Sent: *Monday, December 7, 2015 1:04:14 PM
>>> *Subject: *Re: [AFMUG] WAY OT: Concealed Carry handguns - which to buy
>>> and why
>>>
>>> No need listen talking heads. Supreme leader most knowing of all. No
>>> lies supreme leader = supreme truth. imperialist nation need told thought
>>> from electronic lie machine. Most great people of superb nation need only
>>> strength supreme leader. No lies in supreme nation, light only, light =
>>> truth, truth = supreme leader, supreme leader = light. One circle, one
>>> leader, one power
>>>
>>> On Mon, Dec 7, 2015 at 12:59 PM, can...@believewireless.net <
>>> p...@believewireless.net> wrote:
>>>
>>>> Watch/read/listen to Fox News, MSNBC, CNN, NRA, Bloomberg, Bible,
>>>> Quran, NYT, etc, etc. Read all sides and
>>>> make up your own mind. Because you are not going to change anyone
>>>> else's mind on certain issues.
>>>>
>>>> On Mon, Dec 7, 2015 at 1:55 PM, Mike Hammett  wrote:
>>>>
>>>>> Came to a social gathering, found some talking points?
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>> I immediately disregard anything from anyone that refers to Fox News,
>>>>> MSNBC, Koch Brothers, George Soros, etc.
>>>>>
>>>>
>>>
>>>
>>> --
>>> If you only see yourself as part of the team but you don't see your team
>>> as part of yourself you have already failed as part of the team.
>>>
>>>
>>
>

Re: [AFMUG] WAY OT: Concealed Carry handguns - which to buy and why

I think we should make Steve supreme leader...
On Dec 7, 2015 1:05 PM, "Mike Hammett"  wrote:

> You come up with some interesting shit.
>
>
>
> -
> Mike Hammett
> Intelligent Computing Solutions
> http://www.ics-il.com
>
> <https://www.facebook.com/ICSIL>
> <https://plus.google.com/+IntelligentComputingSolutionsDeKalb>
> <https://www.linkedin.com/company/intelligent-computing-solutions>
> <https://twitter.com/ICSIL>
>
> Midwest Internet Exchange
> http://www.midwest-ix.com
>
> <https://www.facebook.com/mdwestix>
> <https://www.linkedin.com/company/midwest-internet-exchange>
> <https://twitter.com/mdwestix>
> --
> *From: *"That One Guy /sarcasm" 
> *To: *af@afmug.com
> *Sent: *Monday, December 7, 2015 1:04:14 PM
> *Subject: *Re: [AFMUG] WAY OT: Concealed Carry handguns - which to buy
> and why
>
> No need listen talking heads. Supreme leader most knowing of all. No lies
> supreme leader = supreme truth. imperialist nation need told thought from
> electronic lie machine. Most great people of superb nation need only
> strength supreme leader. No lies in supreme nation, light only, light =
> truth, truth = supreme leader, supreme leader = light. One circle, one
> leader, one power
>
> On Mon, Dec 7, 2015 at 12:59 PM, can...@believewireless.net <
> p...@believewireless.net> wrote:
>
>> Watch/read/listen to Fox News, MSNBC, CNN, NRA, Bloomberg, Bible, Quran,
>> NYT, etc, etc. Read all sides and
>> make up your own mind. Because you are not going to change anyone else's
>> mind on certain issues.
>>
>> On Mon, Dec 7, 2015 at 1:55 PM, Mike Hammett  wrote:
>>
>>> Came to a social gathering, found some talking points?
>>>
>>>
>>> I immediately disregard anything from anyone that refers to Fox News,
>>> MSNBC, Koch Brothers, George Soros, etc.
>>>
>>
>
>
> --
> If you only see yourself as part of the team but you don't see your team
> as part of yourself you have already failed as part of the team.
>
>

Re: [AFMUG] WAY OT: Concealed Carry handguns - which to buy and why

2015-12-07 Thread Sean Heskett

are you implying that Steve is not the supreme leader?!?!


On Mon, Dec 7, 2015 at 12:24 PM, Mathew Howard  wrote:

> I think we should make Steve supreme leader...
> On Dec 7, 2015 1:05 PM, "Mike Hammett"  wrote:
>
>> You come up with some interesting shit.
>>
>>
>>
>> -
>> Mike Hammett
>> Intelligent Computing Solutions
>> http://www.ics-il.com
>>
>> <https://www.facebook.com/ICSIL>
>> <https://plus.google.com/+IntelligentComputingSolutionsDeKalb>
>> <https://www.linkedin.com/company/intelligent-computing-solutions>
>> <https://twitter.com/ICSIL>
>>
>> Midwest Internet Exchange
>> http://www.midwest-ix.com
>>
>> <https://www.facebook.com/mdwestix>
>> <https://www.linkedin.com/company/midwest-internet-exchange>
>> <https://twitter.com/mdwestix>
>> ------------------
>> *From: *"That One Guy /sarcasm" 
>> *To: *af@afmug.com
>> *Sent: *Monday, December 7, 2015 1:04:14 PM
>> *Subject: *Re: [AFMUG] WAY OT: Concealed Carry handguns - which to buy
>> and why
>>
>> No need listen talking heads. Supreme leader most knowing of all. No lies
>> supreme leader = supreme truth. imperialist nation need told thought from
>> electronic lie machine. Most great people of superb nation need only
>> strength supreme leader. No lies in supreme nation, light only, light =
>> truth, truth = supreme leader, supreme leader = light. One circle, one
>> leader, one power
>>
>> On Mon, Dec 7, 2015 at 12:59 PM, can...@believewireless.net <
>> p...@believewireless.net> wrote:
>>
>>> Watch/read/listen to Fox News, MSNBC, CNN, NRA, Bloomberg, Bible, Quran,
>>> NYT, etc, etc. Read all sides and
>>> make up your own mind. Because you are not going to change anyone else's
>>> mind on certain issues.
>>>
>>> On Mon, Dec 7, 2015 at 1:55 PM, Mike Hammett  wrote:
>>>
>>>> Came to a social gathering, found some talking points?
>>>>
>>>>
>>>> I immediately disregard anything from anyone that refers to Fox News,
>>>> MSNBC, Koch Brothers, George Soros, etc.
>>>>
>>>
>>
>>
>> --
>> If you only see yourself as part of the team but you don't see your team
>> as part of yourself you have already failed as part of the team.
>>
>>

Re: [AFMUG] WAY OT: Concealed Carry handguns - which to buy and why

He better apologize, we don’t like it when Steve gets angry...

From: Sean Heskett 
Sent: Monday, December 07, 2015 12:28 PM
To: af@afmug.com 
Subject: Re: [AFMUG] WAY OT: Concealed Carry handguns - which to buy and why

are you implying that Steve is not the supreme leader?!?! 

On Mon, Dec 7, 2015 at 12:24 PM, Mathew Howard  wrote:

  I think we should make Steve supreme leader... 

  On Dec 7, 2015 1:05 PM, "Mike Hammett"  wrote:

You come up with some interesting shit.

-
Mike Hammett
Intelligent Computing Solutions
http://www.ics-il.com

Midwest Internet Exchange
http://www.midwest-ix.com

From: "That One Guy /sarcasm" 
To: af@afmug.com
Sent: Monday, December 7, 2015 1:04:14 PM
    Subject: Re: [AFMUG] WAY OT: Concealed Carry handguns - which to buy and why

No need listen talking heads. Supreme leader most knowing of all. No lies 
supreme leader = supreme truth. imperialist nation need told thought from 
electronic lie machine. Most great people of superb nation need only strength 
supreme leader. No lies in supreme nation, light only, light = truth, truth = 
supreme leader, supreme leader = light. One circle, one leader, one power

On Mon, Dec 7, 2015 at 12:59 PM, can...@believewireless.net 
 wrote:

  Watch/read/listen to Fox News, MSNBC, CNN, NRA, Bloomberg, Bible, Quran, 
NYT, etc, etc. Read all sides and 
  make up your own mind. Because you are not going to change anyone else's 
mind on certain issues.

  On Mon, Dec 7, 2015 at 1:55 PM, Mike Hammett  wrote:

Came to a social gathering, found some talking points?

I immediately disregard anything from anyone that refers to Fox News, 
MSNBC, Koch Brothers, George Soros, etc.

-- 

If you only see yourself as part of the team but you don't see your team as 
part of yourself you have already failed as part of the team.

Re: [AFMUG] WAY OT: Concealed Carry handguns - which to buy and why


Well, he asked for a "Cambium forum" so I gave him the link to it. :)

On 12/7/2015 1:03 PM, Chuck McCown wrote:

traitor...
*From:* George Skorup <mailto:geo...@cbcast.com>
*Sent:* Monday, December 07, 2015 12:01 PM
*To:* af@afmug.com <mailto:af@afmug.com>
*Subject:* Re: [AFMUG] WAY OT: Concealed Carry handguns - which to buy 
and why

http://community.cambiumnetworks.com/

:)

On 12/7/2015 12:53 PM, Peter Kranz wrote:


Came looking for a Cambium forum.. Found fox news..

*Peter Kranz
*<http://www.unwiredltd.com/>www.UnwiredLtd.com
Desk: 510-868-1614 x100
Mobile: 510-207-
pkr...@unwiredltd.com <mailto:pkr...@unwiredltd.com>

Re: [AFMUG] WAY OT: Concealed Carry handguns - which to buy and why

You come up with some interesting shit. 




- 
Mike Hammett 
Intelligent Computing Solutions 
http://www.ics-il.com 



Midwest Internet Exchange 
http://www.midwest-ix.com 


- Original Message -

From: "That One Guy /sarcasm"  
To: af@afmug.com 
Sent: Monday, December 7, 2015 1:04:14 PM 
Subject: Re: [AFMUG] WAY OT: Concealed Carry handguns - which to buy and why 


No need listen talking heads. Supreme leader most knowing of all. No lies 
supreme leader = supreme truth. imperialist nation need told thought from 
electronic lie machine. Most great people of superb nation need only strength 
supreme leader. No lies in supreme nation, light only, light = truth, truth = 
supreme leader, supreme leader = light. One circle, one leader, one power 


On Mon, Dec 7, 2015 at 12:59 PM, can...@believewireless.net < 
p...@believewireless.net > wrote: 



Watch/read/listen to Fox News, MSNBC, CNN, NRA, Bloomberg, Bible, Quran, NYT, 
etc, etc. Read all sides and 
make up your own mind. Because you are not going to change anyone else's mind 
on certain issues. 



On Mon, Dec 7, 2015 at 1:55 PM, Mike Hammett < af...@ics-il.net > wrote: 




Came to a social gathering, found some talking points? 


I immediately disregard anything from anyone that refers to Fox News, MSNBC, 
Koch Brothers, George Soros, etc. 







-- 




If you only see yourself as part of the team but you don't see your team as 
part of yourself you have already failed as part of the team.

Re: [AFMUG] WAY OT: Concealed Carry handguns - which to buy and why

I still gotta do what my wife tells me to do...

From: That One Guy /sarcasm 
Sent: Monday, December 07, 2015 12:04 PM
To: af@afmug.com 
Subject: Re: [AFMUG] WAY OT: Concealed Carry handguns - which to buy and why

No need listen talking heads. Supreme leader most knowing of all. No lies 
supreme leader = supreme truth. imperialist nation need told thought from 
electronic lie machine. Most great people of superb nation need only strength 
supreme leader. No lies in supreme nation, light only, light = truth, truth = 
supreme leader, supreme leader = light. One circle, one leader, one power

On Mon, Dec 7, 2015 at 12:59 PM, can...@believewireless.net 
 wrote:

  Watch/read/listen to Fox News, MSNBC, CNN, NRA, Bloomberg, Bible, Quran, NYT, 
etc, etc. Read all sides and 
  make up your own mind. Because you are not going to change anyone else's mind 
on certain issues.

  On Mon, Dec 7, 2015 at 1:55 PM, Mike Hammett  wrote:

Came to a social gathering, found some talking points?

I immediately disregard anything from anyone that refers to Fox News, 
MSNBC, Koch Brothers, George Soros, etc.

-- 

If you only see yourself as part of the team but you don't see your team as 
part of yourself you have already failed as part of the team.

Re: [AFMUG] WAY OT: Concealed Carry handguns - which to buy and why

traitor...

From: George Skorup 
Sent: Monday, December 07, 2015 12:01 PM
To: af@afmug.com 
Subject: Re: [AFMUG] WAY OT: Concealed Carry handguns - which to buy and why

http://community.cambiumnetworks.com/

:)


On 12/7/2015 12:53 PM, Peter Kranz wrote:

  Came looking for a Cambium forum.. Found fox news..

   

  Peter Kranz
  www.UnwiredLtd.com
  Desk: 510-868-1614 x100
  Mobile: 510-207-
  pkr...@unwiredltd.com

Re: [AFMUG] WAY OT: Concealed Carry handguns - which to buy and why

No need listen talking heads. Supreme leader most knowing of all. No lies
supreme leader = supreme truth. imperialist nation need told thought from
electronic lie machine. Most great people of superb nation need only
strength supreme leader. No lies in supreme nation, light only, light =
truth, truth = supreme leader, supreme leader = light. One circle, one
leader, one power

On Mon, Dec 7, 2015 at 12:59 PM, can...@believewireless.net <
p...@believewireless.net> wrote:

> Watch/read/listen to Fox News, MSNBC, CNN, NRA, Bloomberg, Bible, Quran,
> NYT, etc, etc. Read all sides and
> make up your own mind. Because you are not going to change anyone else's
> mind on certain issues.
>
> On Mon, Dec 7, 2015 at 1:55 PM, Mike Hammett  wrote:
>
>> Came to a social gathering, found some talking points?
>>
>>
>> I immediately disregard anything from anyone that refers to Fox News,
>> MSNBC, Koch Brothers, George Soros, etc.
>>
>

-- 
If you only see yourself as part of the team but you don't see your team as
part of yourself you have already failed as part of the team.

Re: [AFMUG] WAY OT: Concealed Carry handguns - which to buy and why


I bet Paul McCall regrets this thread.


On 12/7/2015 2:03 PM, Chuck McCown wrote:

traitor...
*From:* George Skorup <mailto:geo...@cbcast.com>
*Sent:* Monday, December 07, 2015 12:01 PM
*To:* af@afmug.com <mailto:af@afmug.com>
*Subject:* Re: [AFMUG] WAY OT: Concealed Carry handguns - which to buy 
and why

http://community.cambiumnetworks.com/

:)

On 12/7/2015 12:53 PM, Peter Kranz wrote:


Came looking for a Cambium forum.. Found fox news..

*Peter Kranz
*<http://www.unwiredltd.com/>www.UnwiredLtd.com
Desk: 510-868-1614 x100
Mobile: 510-207-
pkr...@unwiredltd.com <mailto:pkr...@unwiredltd.com>

Re: [AFMUG] WAY OT: Concealed Carry handguns - which to buy and why


http://community.cambiumnetworks.com/

:)

On 12/7/2015 12:53 PM, Peter Kranz wrote:


Came looking for a Cambium forum.. Found fox news..

*Peter Kranz
*www.UnwiredLtd.com 
Desk: 510-868-1614 x100
Mobile: 510-207-
pkr...@unwiredltd.com

Re: [AFMUG] WAY OT: Concealed Carry handguns - which to buy and why

2015-12-07 Thread can...@believewireless.net

Watch/read/listen to Fox News, MSNBC, CNN, NRA, Bloomberg, Bible, Quran,
NYT, etc, etc. Read all sides and
make up your own mind. Because you are not going to change anyone else's
mind on certain issues.

On Mon, Dec 7, 2015 at 1:55 PM, Mike Hammett  wrote:

> Came to a social gathering, found some talking points?
>
>
> I immediately disregard anything from anyone that refers to Fox News,
> MSNBC, Koch Brothers, George Soros, etc.
>

Re: [AFMUG] WAY OT: Concealed Carry handguns - which to buy and why

I loved being on the radio. Being paid to talk? It's like being paid to eat.

Rachel Maddow


(the common denominator)

From: Peter Kranz 
Sent: Monday, December 07, 2015 11:53 AM
To: af@afmug.com 
Subject: Re: [AFMUG] WAY OT: Concealed Carry handguns - which to buy and why

Came looking for a Cambium forum.. Found fox news..

 

Peter Kranz
www.UnwiredLtd.com
Desk: 510-868-1614 x100
Mobile: 510-207-
pkr...@unwiredltd.com

Re: [AFMUG] WAY OT: Concealed Carry handguns - which to buy and why

... or "RINO", "libtard" "liberal" "neocon", etc.

All of them are just labels used by the lazy and incompetent to ignore real
issues.

On Mon, Dec 7, 2015 at 12:55 PM, Mike Hammett  wrote:

> Came to a social gathering, found some talking points?
>
>
> I immediately disregard anything from anyone that refers to Fox News,
> MSNBC, Koch Brothers, George Soros, etc.
>
>
>
> -
> Mike Hammett
> Intelligent Computing Solutions
> http://www.ics-il.com
>
> <https://www.facebook.com/ICSIL>
> <https://plus.google.com/+IntelligentComputingSolutionsDeKalb>
> <https://www.linkedin.com/company/intelligent-computing-solutions>
> <https://twitter.com/ICSIL>
>
> Midwest Internet Exchange
> http://www.midwest-ix.com
>
> <https://www.facebook.com/mdwestix>
> <https://www.linkedin.com/company/midwest-internet-exchange>
> <https://twitter.com/mdwestix>
> ----------
> *From: *"Peter Kranz" 
> *To: *af@afmug.com
> *Sent: *Monday, December 7, 2015 12:53:13 PM
> *Subject: *Re: [AFMUG] WAY OT: Concealed Carry handguns - which to buy
> and why
>
> Came looking for a Cambium forum.. Found fox news..
>
>
>
>
> *Peter Kranz*www.UnwiredLtd.com <http://www.unwiredltd.com/>
> Desk: 510-868-1614 x100
> Mobile: 510-207-
> pkr...@unwiredltd.com
>
>

Re: [AFMUG] WAY OT: Concealed Carry handguns - which to buy and why

Came to a social gathering, found some talking points? 


I immediately disregard anything from anyone that refers to Fox News, MSNBC, 
Koch Brothers, George Soros, etc. 




- 
Mike Hammett 
Intelligent Computing Solutions 
http://www.ics-il.com 



Midwest Internet Exchange 
http://www.midwest-ix.com 


- Original Message -

From: "Peter Kranz"  
To: af@afmug.com 
Sent: Monday, December 7, 2015 12:53:13 PM 
Subject: Re: [AFMUG] WAY OT: Concealed Carry handguns - which to buy and why 



Came looking for a Cambium forum.. Found fox news.. 

Peter Kranz 
www.UnwiredLtd.com 
Desk: 510-868-1614 x100 
Mobile: 510-207- 
pkr...@unwiredltd.com

Re: [AFMUG] WAY OT: Concealed Carry handguns - which to buy and why

2015-12-07 Thread Peter Kranz

Came looking for a Cambium forum.. Found fox news..

 

Peter Kranz
  www.UnwiredLtd.com
Desk: 510-868-1614 x100
Mobile: 510-207-
  pkr...@unwiredltd.com

Re: [AFMUG] WAY OT: Concealed Carry handguns - which to buy and why

I love that meme.

I don't know who the dude in that pic was, but I'm pretty sure he's ready
to fisticuffs the shit out of something.

On Mon, Dec 7, 2015 at 12:50 PM, That One Guy /sarcasm <
thatoneguyst...@gmail.com> wrote:

> Patrick, is this you?
>
> On Mon, Dec 7, 2015 at 12:48 PM, Dan Petermann  wrote:
>
>> This is a pretty good article on stopping power.
>> http://www.breachbangclear.com/the-truth-about-stopping-power-anatomy-first/
>>
>> Here is a very short summary: Unless you separate the brain from the
>> spinal column, one shot stopping power really isn’t true in most cases.
>>
>>
>> On Dec 7, 2015, at 10:02 AM, Josh Reynolds  wrote:
>>
>> I would agree that "bigger is better" if the energy transfer and temporal
>> cavity were that much different between 9mm and 45ACP, but in reality, they
>> are not.
>>
>> Now if you step up to a hand cannon like a 44mag or .500SW, that's a bit
>> different... but good luck concealed carrying those on a hot summer day.
>>
>> I'll leave you with this, for some "light reading" on handgun calibers,
>> temporal cavities, rounds to incapacitate, etc.
>> http://www.buckeyefirearms.org/alternate-look-handgun-stopping-power
>>
>> On Mon, Dec 7, 2015 at 10:38 AM, Cameron Crum  wrote:
>>
>>> I carry a Colt 45 Defender. It is relatively small for a 45. An NSA
>>> buddy of mine, who had been in several close range shootouts in his career
>>> asked me one time why I carry a 45. I told him that I'd never been in a
>>> firefight. I don't train in high pressure situations, and while I'm
>>> proficient at the range, I don't train for situations like he did or the
>>> cops do. If I am in a situation where I have to pull a gun, my adrenaline
>>> is going to be pumping like crazy, and I may be moving to cover or trying
>>> to stay out of the way of bullets myself. I may only hit what I'm shooting
>>> at once if I'm lucky. I want the once to count.
>>>
>>> On Mon, Dec 7, 2015 at 10:30 AM, That One Guy /sarcasm <
>>> thatoneguyst...@gmail.com> wrote:
>>>
>>>> define legally
>>>> If a bear shits in the woods, will tight shoes cause callouses?
>>>>
>>>> I dont know why any of you want these killing machines, the government
>>>> has guns, and we pay them to protect us. Your gun, if you hand it to a bad
>>>> guy, is 100% of the time going to be in the bad guys possession, and if
>>>> that bad guy happens to be 5, youve just given a child a handgun, are you
>>>> saying we should arm children? Why are you trying to kill children,
>>>> children are the future, teach them well and let them lead the way.
>>>>
>>>>
>>>> Imperialist scum be furthering decline humanity. Mighty leader will
>>>> devour you in fear.
>>>>
>>>> <12347623_1089257647751059_6729633631911655975_n.jpg>
>>>> 
>>>>
>>>> On Mon, Dec 7, 2015 at 10:17 AM, Chuck McCown  wrote:
>>>>
>>>>> Can you legally own hand grenades?
>>>>>
>>>>> *From:* Mathew Howard 
>>>>> *Sent:* Monday, December 07, 2015 9:15 AM
>>>>> *To:* af 
>>>>> *Subject:* Re: [AFMUG] WAY OT: Concealed Carry handguns - which to
>>>>> buy and why
>>>>>
>>>>> you do if you want to conceal it... :P
>>>>>
>>>>> On Mon, Dec 7, 2015 at 10:14 AM, Chuck McCown  wrote:
>>>>>
>>>>>> You don’t need a CC to carry a Springfield 30-06
>>>>>>
>>>>>> *From:* Paul McCall 
>>>>>> *Sent:* Monday, December 07, 2015 9:03 AM
>>>>>> *To:* af@afmug.com
>>>>>> *Subject:* [AFMUG] WAY OT: Concealed Carry handguns - which to buy
>>>>>> and why
>>>>>>
>>>>>>
>>>>>> I am getting my CC permit (Florida) in a week or so.  I took an
>>>>>> absolutely excellent class from the main trainer at the Brevard county
>>>>>> sheriff’s office.
>>>>>>
>>>>>>
>>>>>>
>>>>>> Now, I am looking for an excellent CC gun to use, as my long barrel
>>>>>> Colt 38 is not a good fit for that.
>>>>>>
>>>>>>
>>>>>>
>>>>>> I am certain that this group probably has a LOT of expertise (and
>>>>>> many opinions) on THE gun to use.
>>>>>>
>>>>>>
>>>>>>
>>>>>> J
>>>>>>
>>>>>>
>>>>>>
>>>>>> Paul McCall, Pres.
>>>>>>
>>>>>> PDMNet / Florida Broadband
>>>>>>
>>>>>> 658 Old Dixie Highway
>>>>>>
>>>>>> Vero Beach, FL 32962
>>>>>>
>>>>>> 772-564-6800 office
>>>>>>
>>>>>> 772-473-0352 cell
>>>>>>
>>>>>> www.pdmnet.com
>>>>>>
>>>>>> pa...@pdmnet.net
>>>>>>
>>>>>>
>>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>> --
>>>> If you only see yourself as part of the team but you don't see your
>>>> team as part of yourself you have already failed as part of the team.
>>>>
>>>
>>>
>>
>>
>
>
> --
> If you only see yourself as part of the team but you don't see your team
> as part of yourself you have already failed as part of the team.
>

Re: [AFMUG] WAY OT: Concealed Carry handguns - which to buy and why

Patrick, is this you?

On Mon, Dec 7, 2015 at 12:48 PM, Dan Petermann  wrote:

> This is a pretty good article on stopping power.
> http://www.breachbangclear.com/the-truth-about-stopping-power-anatomy-first/
>
> Here is a very short summary: Unless you separate the brain from the
> spinal column, one shot stopping power really isn’t true in most cases.
>
>
> On Dec 7, 2015, at 10:02 AM, Josh Reynolds  wrote:
>
> I would agree that "bigger is better" if the energy transfer and temporal
> cavity were that much different between 9mm and 45ACP, but in reality, they
> are not.
>
> Now if you step up to a hand cannon like a 44mag or .500SW, that's a bit
> different... but good luck concealed carrying those on a hot summer day.
>
> I'll leave you with this, for some "light reading" on handgun calibers,
> temporal cavities, rounds to incapacitate, etc.
> http://www.buckeyefirearms.org/alternate-look-handgun-stopping-power
>
> On Mon, Dec 7, 2015 at 10:38 AM, Cameron Crum  wrote:
>
>> I carry a Colt 45 Defender. It is relatively small for a 45. An NSA buddy
>> of mine, who had been in several close range shootouts in his career asked
>> me one time why I carry a 45. I told him that I'd never been in a
>> firefight. I don't train in high pressure situations, and while I'm
>> proficient at the range, I don't train for situations like he did or the
>> cops do. If I am in a situation where I have to pull a gun, my adrenaline
>> is going to be pumping like crazy, and I may be moving to cover or trying
>> to stay out of the way of bullets myself. I may only hit what I'm shooting
>> at once if I'm lucky. I want the once to count.
>>
>> On Mon, Dec 7, 2015 at 10:30 AM, That One Guy /sarcasm <
>> thatoneguyst...@gmail.com> wrote:
>>
>>> define legally
>>> If a bear shits in the woods, will tight shoes cause callouses?
>>>
>>> I dont know why any of you want these killing machines, the government
>>> has guns, and we pay them to protect us. Your gun, if you hand it to a bad
>>> guy, is 100% of the time going to be in the bad guys possession, and if
>>> that bad guy happens to be 5, youve just given a child a handgun, are you
>>> saying we should arm children? Why are you trying to kill children,
>>> children are the future, teach them well and let them lead the way.
>>>
>>>
>>> Imperialist scum be furthering decline humanity. Mighty leader will
>>> devour you in fear.
>>>
>>> <12347623_1089257647751059_6729633631911655975_n.jpg>
>>> 
>>>
>>> On Mon, Dec 7, 2015 at 10:17 AM, Chuck McCown  wrote:
>>>
>>>> Can you legally own hand grenades?
>>>>
>>>> *From:* Mathew Howard 
>>>> *Sent:* Monday, December 07, 2015 9:15 AM
>>>> *To:* af 
>>>> *Subject:* Re: [AFMUG] WAY OT: Concealed Carry handguns - which to buy
>>>> and why
>>>>
>>>> you do if you want to conceal it... :P
>>>>
>>>> On Mon, Dec 7, 2015 at 10:14 AM, Chuck McCown  wrote:
>>>>
>>>>> You don’t need a CC to carry a Springfield 30-06
>>>>>
>>>>> *From:* Paul McCall 
>>>>> *Sent:* Monday, December 07, 2015 9:03 AM
>>>>> *To:* af@afmug.com
>>>>> *Subject:* [AFMUG] WAY OT: Concealed Carry handguns - which to buy
>>>>> and why
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>> I am getting my CC permit (Florida) in a week or so.  I took an
>>>>> absolutely excellent class from the main trainer at the Brevard county
>>>>> sheriff’s office.
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>> Now, I am looking for an excellent CC gun to use, as my long barrel
>>>>> Colt 38 is not a good fit for that.
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>> I am certain that this group probably has a LOT of expertise (and many
>>>>> opinions) on THE gun to use.
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>> J
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>> Paul McCall, Pres.
>>>>>
>>>>> PDMNet / Florida Broadband
>>>>>
>>>>> 658 Old Dixie Highway
>>>>>
>>>>> Vero Beach, FL 32962
>>>>>
>>>>> 772-564-6800 office
>>>>>
>>>>> 772-473-0352 cell
>>>>>
>>>>> www.pdmnet.com
>>>>>
>>>>> pa...@pdmnet.net
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>> --
>>> If you only see yourself as part of the team but you don't see your team
>>> as part of yourself you have already failed as part of the team.
>>>
>>
>>
>
>


-- 
If you only see yourself as part of the team but you don't see your team as
part of yourself you have already failed as part of the team.

Re: [AFMUG] WAY OT: Concealed Carry handguns - which to buy and why

2015-12-07 Thread Dan Petermann

This is a pretty good article on stopping power. 
http://www.breachbangclear.com/the-truth-about-stopping-power-anatomy-first/

Here is a very short summary: Unless you separate the brain from the spinal 
column, one shot stopping power really isn’t true in most cases.


On Dec 7, 2015, at 10:02 AM, Josh Reynolds  wrote:

> I would agree that "bigger is better" if the energy transfer and temporal 
> cavity were that much different between 9mm and 45ACP, but in reality, they 
> are not.
> 
> Now if you step up to a hand cannon like a 44mag or .500SW, that's a bit 
> different... but good luck concealed carrying those on a hot summer day.
> 
> I'll leave you with this, for some "light reading" on handgun calibers, 
> temporal cavities, rounds to incapacitate, etc. 
> http://www.buckeyefirearms.org/alternate-look-handgun-stopping-power
> 
> On Mon, Dec 7, 2015 at 10:38 AM, Cameron Crum  wrote:
> I carry a Colt 45 Defender. It is relatively small for a 45. An NSA buddy of 
> mine, who had been in several close range shootouts in his career asked me 
> one time why I carry a 45. I told him that I'd never been in a firefight. I 
> don't train in high pressure situations, and while I'm proficient at the 
> range, I don't train for situations like he did or the cops do. If I am in a 
> situation where I have to pull a gun, my adrenaline is going to be pumping 
> like crazy, and I may be moving to cover or trying to stay out of the way of 
> bullets myself. I may only hit what I'm shooting at once if I'm lucky. I want 
> the once to count. 
> 
> On Mon, Dec 7, 2015 at 10:30 AM, That One Guy /sarcasm 
>  wrote:
> define legally
> If a bear shits in the woods, will tight shoes cause callouses?
> 
> I dont know why any of you want these killing machines, the government has 
> guns, and we pay them to protect us. Your gun, if you hand it to a bad guy, 
> is 100% of the time going to be in the bad guys possession, and if that bad 
> guy happens to be 5, youve just given a child a handgun, are you saying we 
> should arm children? Why are you trying to kill children, children are the 
> future, teach them well and let them lead the way. 
> 
> 
> Imperialist scum be furthering decline humanity. Mighty leader will devour 
> you in fear. 
> 
> <12347623_1089257647751059_6729633631911655975_n.jpg>
> 
> 
> On Mon, Dec 7, 2015 at 10:17 AM, Chuck McCown  wrote:
> Can you legally own hand grenades?
>  
> From: Mathew Howard
> Sent: Monday, December 07, 2015 9:15 AM
> To: af
> Subject: Re: [AFMUG] WAY OT: Concealed Carry handguns - which to buy and why
>  
> you do if you want to conceal it... :P
>  
> On Mon, Dec 7, 2015 at 10:14 AM, Chuck McCown  wrote:
> You don’t need a CC to carry a Springfield 30-06
>  
> From: Paul McCall
> Sent: Monday, December 07, 2015 9:03 AM
> To: af@afmug.com
> Subject: [AFMUG] WAY OT: Concealed Carry handguns - which to buy and why
>  
> I am getting my CC permit (Florida) in a week or so.  I took an absolutely 
> excellent class from the main trainer at the Brevard county sheriff’s office. 
> 
>  
> 
> Now, I am looking for an excellent CC gun to use, as my long barrel Colt 38 
> is not a good fit for that. 
> 
>  
> 
> I am certain that this group probably has a LOT of expertise (and many 
> opinions) on THE gun to use.
> 
>  
> 
> J  
> 
>  
> 
> Paul McCall, Pres.
> 
> PDMNet / Florida Broadband
> 
> 658 Old Dixie Highway
> 
> Vero Beach, FL 32962
> 
> 772-564-6800 office
> 
> 772-473-0352 cell
> 
> www.pdmnet.com
> 
> pa...@pdmnet.net
> 
>  
> 
>  
> 
> 
> 
> -- 
> If you only see yourself as part of the team but you don't see your team as 
> part of yourself you have already failed as part of the team.
> 
>

Re: [AFMUG] WAY OT: Concealed Carry handguns - which to buy and why

society being beyond ideal. No weakness too small defeat through
superiority of supreme leader strength and wisdom. All peoples rejoices in
light supreme leader bring forth. Brothers and sister gain strength with
need less food because supreme leader feed with light. Proof in image
superiority supreme leader, imperialist nation people idolize supreme rule




On Mon, Dec 7, 2015 at 12:38 PM, Chuck McCown  wrote:

> Uh uh, nope, I have proof...
> Video proof... doesn’t get any better than this!
> https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=PlVHe_aPsv0
>
>
> *From:* Josh Luthman 
> *Sent:* Monday, December 07, 2015 11:34 AM
> *To:* af@afmug.com
> *Subject:* Re: [AFMUG] WAY OT: Concealed Carry handguns - which to buy
> and why
>
> It's all fake!!!
>
>
> Josh Luthman
> Office: 937-552-2340
> Direct: 937-552-2343
> 1100 Wayne St
> Suite 1337
> Troy, OH 45373
>
> On Mon, Dec 7, 2015 at 1:33 PM, Chuck McCown  wrote:
>
>> Their supermarkets are very well stocked...
>>
>> *From:* Mathew Howard 
>> *Sent:* Monday, December 07, 2015 11:30 AM
>> *To:* af 
>> *Subject:* Re: [AFMUG] WAY OT: Concealed Carry handguns - which to buy
>> and why
>>
>> So you're saying that you really don't think North Korea is the ideal
>> society?! :P
>>
>> On Mon, Dec 7, 2015 at 12:28 PM, That One Guy /sarcasm <
>> thatoneguyst...@gmail.com> wrote:
>>
>>> the paying the government to protect us is tongue in cheek, see the
>>> attached image of greatness being supreme leader of nation peace through
>>> obedience, disarmament making for no death shoot, imperial scum see
>>> dominance in masterful power and soon dominate simple worlds
>>>
>>> On Mon, Dec 7, 2015 at 12:19 PM, Sam Morris  wrote:
>>>
>>>> Couple of things here Patrick...and I mean these comments respectfully.
>>>>
>>>> The SCOTUS disagrees with your interpretation of the Second Amendment,
>>>> as do roughly 120 million gun owners in America. The opinions of liberal
>>>> scholars means exactly squat.
>>>>
>>>> Also, the first ten amendments (the Bill of Rights) can *not* be
>>>> altered without abolishing the entire US Constitution.
>>>>
>>>> Getting back to the OP's question - I've carried everything from a .45
>>>> Glock 19 Gen 4 to my Israeli-made .50 cal Desert Eagle. I'm a big dude so I
>>>> can get away with the larger guns and concealment. I stopped carrying the
>>>> DE only because I didn't want to shoot the bad guy and kill three good guys
>>>> standing behind him.
>>>>
>>>> And I will say this to which whomever it was who said we pay the
>>>> government to protect us: At the same event where you and I met (in St
>>>> Louis) Patrick, I was walking back to my hotel (two blocks from the event)
>>>> after a long night of training and networking. It was about 1:00 am. As I
>>>> was walking back, two of St. Louis' finest citizens (dirtbags) approached
>>>> me, making it very clear that they weren't selling girl scout cookies. When
>>>> they were about 50 yards away I took out my Glock and racked a round (I
>>>> won't carry hot because as someone else mentioned here it doesn't have a
>>>> safety). When these two scumbags heard that cartridge rack, they turned and
>>>> bolted. I saw nothing but assholes and elbows.
>>>>
>>>> I didn't have to point my weapon at them or even show it to them, much
>>>> less fire it. However, had I not had it with me, I have every reason to
>>>> believe I'd likely not be here typing this to you.
>>>>
>>>> Sam
>>>>
>>>>
>>>> On 12/7/2015 11:41 AM, Patrick Leary wrote:
>>>>
>>>>> Yawn. The general population never made that boast until the NRA in the
>>>>> 1980s changed their tactics to spur slagging gun sales. They moved the
>>>>> conversation to patriotic themes, talk of freedom, and other pabulum
>>>>> gobbled up by folks. Contrary to popular “conservative” thinking, this
>>>>> is not settled law. In fact, even Scalia has been clear it’s quite
>>>>> open.
>>>>> Part of the issue is the meaning of “arms” and “keep” and “bear,” as
>>>>> well as the limits therein. But, even more important is how modern gun
>>>>> advocates neglect the entire first part of that amendment and pretend
>>>>> it
>>>>>

Re: [AFMUG] WAY OT: Concealed Carry handguns - which to buy and why

2015-12-07 Thread Josh Luthman

Proof it's all fake:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=BotDYFR9ULk


Josh Luthman
Office: 937-552-2340
Direct: 937-552-2343
1100 Wayne St
Suite 1337
Troy, OH 45373

On Mon, Dec 7, 2015 at 1:38 PM, Chuck McCown  wrote:

> Uh uh, nope, I have proof...
> Video proof... doesn’t get any better than this!
> https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=PlVHe_aPsv0
>
>
> *From:* Josh Luthman 
> *Sent:* Monday, December 07, 2015 11:34 AM
> *To:* af@afmug.com
> *Subject:* Re: [AFMUG] WAY OT: Concealed Carry handguns - which to buy
> and why
>
> It's all fake!!!
>
>
> Josh Luthman
> Office: 937-552-2340
> Direct: 937-552-2343
> 1100 Wayne St
> Suite 1337
> Troy, OH 45373
>
> On Mon, Dec 7, 2015 at 1:33 PM, Chuck McCown  wrote:
>
>> Their supermarkets are very well stocked...
>>
>> *From:* Mathew Howard 
>> *Sent:* Monday, December 07, 2015 11:30 AM
>> *To:* af 
>> *Subject:* Re: [AFMUG] WAY OT: Concealed Carry handguns - which to buy
>> and why
>>
>> So you're saying that you really don't think North Korea is the ideal
>> society?! :P
>>
>> On Mon, Dec 7, 2015 at 12:28 PM, That One Guy /sarcasm <
>> thatoneguyst...@gmail.com> wrote:
>>
>>> the paying the government to protect us is tongue in cheek, see the
>>> attached image of greatness being supreme leader of nation peace through
>>> obedience, disarmament making for no death shoot, imperial scum see
>>> dominance in masterful power and soon dominate simple worlds
>>>
>>> On Mon, Dec 7, 2015 at 12:19 PM, Sam Morris  wrote:
>>>
>>>> Couple of things here Patrick...and I mean these comments respectfully.
>>>>
>>>> The SCOTUS disagrees with your interpretation of the Second Amendment,
>>>> as do roughly 120 million gun owners in America. The opinions of liberal
>>>> scholars means exactly squat.
>>>>
>>>> Also, the first ten amendments (the Bill of Rights) can *not* be
>>>> altered without abolishing the entire US Constitution.
>>>>
>>>> Getting back to the OP's question - I've carried everything from a .45
>>>> Glock 19 Gen 4 to my Israeli-made .50 cal Desert Eagle. I'm a big dude so I
>>>> can get away with the larger guns and concealment. I stopped carrying the
>>>> DE only because I didn't want to shoot the bad guy and kill three good guys
>>>> standing behind him.
>>>>
>>>> And I will say this to which whomever it was who said we pay the
>>>> government to protect us: At the same event where you and I met (in St
>>>> Louis) Patrick, I was walking back to my hotel (two blocks from the event)
>>>> after a long night of training and networking. It was about 1:00 am. As I
>>>> was walking back, two of St. Louis' finest citizens (dirtbags) approached
>>>> me, making it very clear that they weren't selling girl scout cookies. When
>>>> they were about 50 yards away I took out my Glock and racked a round (I
>>>> won't carry hot because as someone else mentioned here it doesn't have a
>>>> safety). When these two scumbags heard that cartridge rack, they turned and
>>>> bolted. I saw nothing but assholes and elbows.
>>>>
>>>> I didn't have to point my weapon at them or even show it to them, much
>>>> less fire it. However, had I not had it with me, I have every reason to
>>>> believe I'd likely not be here typing this to you.
>>>>
>>>> Sam
>>>>
>>>>
>>>> On 12/7/2015 11:41 AM, Patrick Leary wrote:
>>>>
>>>>> Yawn. The general population never made that boast until the NRA in the
>>>>> 1980s changed their tactics to spur slagging gun sales. They moved the
>>>>> conversation to patriotic themes, talk of freedom, and other pabulum
>>>>> gobbled up by folks. Contrary to popular “conservative” thinking, this
>>>>> is not settled law. In fact, even Scalia has been clear it’s quite
>>>>> open.
>>>>> Part of the issue is the meaning of “arms” and “keep” and “bear,” as
>>>>> well as the limits therein. But, even more important is how modern gun
>>>>> advocates neglect the entire first part of that amendment and pretend
>>>>> it
>>>>> does not exist at all, when rather, it is, in fact, the entire
>>>>> modifying
>>>>> context of the latter part of the sentence.
>>>>>
>>>>> I q

Re: [AFMUG] WAY OT: Concealed Carry handguns - which to buy and why

Uh uh, nope, I have proof...
Video proof... doesn’t get any better than this!
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=PlVHe_aPsv0

From: Josh Luthman 
Sent: Monday, December 07, 2015 11:34 AM
To: af@afmug.com 
Subject: Re: [AFMUG] WAY OT: Concealed Carry handguns - which to buy and why

It's all fake!!!

Josh Luthman
Office: 937-552-2340
Direct: 937-552-2343
1100 Wayne St
Suite 1337
Troy, OH 45373

On Mon, Dec 7, 2015 at 1:33 PM, Chuck McCown  wrote:

  Their supermarkets are very well stocked...

  From: Mathew Howard 
  Sent: Monday, December 07, 2015 11:30 AM
  To: af 
  Subject: Re: [AFMUG] WAY OT: Concealed Carry handguns - which to buy and why

  So you're saying that you really don't think North Korea is the ideal 
society?! :P

  On Mon, Dec 7, 2015 at 12:28 PM, That One Guy /sarcasm 
 wrote:

the paying the government to protect us is tongue in cheek, see the 
attached image of greatness being supreme leader of nation peace through 
obedience, disarmament making for no death shoot, imperial scum see dominance 
in masterful power and soon dominate simple worlds 

On Mon, Dec 7, 2015 at 12:19 PM, Sam Morris  wrote:

  Couple of things here Patrick...and I mean these comments respectfully.

  The SCOTUS disagrees with your interpretation of the Second Amendment, as 
do roughly 120 million gun owners in America. The opinions of liberal scholars 
means exactly squat.

  Also, the first ten amendments (the Bill of Rights) can *not* be altered 
without abolishing the entire US Constitution.

  Getting back to the OP's question - I've carried everything from a .45 
Glock 19 Gen 4 to my Israeli-made .50 cal Desert Eagle. I'm a big dude so I can 
get away with the larger guns and concealment. I stopped carrying the DE only 
because I didn't want to shoot the bad guy and kill three good guys standing 
behind him.

  And I will say this to which whomever it was who said we pay the 
government to protect us: At the same event where you and I met (in St Louis) 
Patrick, I was walking back to my hotel (two blocks from the event) after a 
long night of training and networking. It was about 1:00 am. As I was walking 
back, two of St. Louis' finest citizens (dirtbags) approached me, making it 
very clear that they weren't selling girl scout cookies. When they were about 
50 yards away I took out my Glock and racked a round (I won't carry hot because 
as someone else mentioned here it doesn't have a safety). When these two 
scumbags heard that cartridge rack, they turned and bolted. I saw nothing but 
assholes and elbows.

  I didn't have to point my weapon at them or even show it to them, much 
less fire it. However, had I not had it with me, I have every reason to believe 
I'd likely not be here typing this to you.

  Sam

  On 12/7/2015 11:41 AM, Patrick Leary wrote:

Yawn. The general population never made that boast until the NRA in the
1980s changed their tactics to spur slagging gun sales. They moved the
conversation to patriotic themes, talk of freedom, and other pabulum
gobbled up by folks. Contrary to popular “conservative” thinking, this
is not settled law. In fact, even Scalia has been clear it’s quite open.
Part of the issue is the meaning of “arms” and “keep” and “bear,” as
well as the limits therein. But, even more important is how modern gun
advocates neglect the entire first part of that amendment and pretend it
does not exist at all, when rather, it is, in fact, the entire modifying
context of the latter part of the sentence.

I quote;

"A well regulated Militia, being necessary to the security of a free
State, the right of the people to keep and bear Arms, shall not be
infringed."

The NRA has done yeoman’s work pretending that part of the amendment
does not exist. The “well regulated militia” is the subject, not guns.
The rest of the sentence is the modifier. “People” in this case are
represented by each state’s militia.

There is a significant opinion among many scholars that individual
citizens have no right at all to a gun.

Secondly, no right is absolute. Government even grants itself the
authority to regulate our inalienable rights (capital punishment, etc.).
Amendments can also be altered, like the idiot 18^th , in the face of
changing realities. The reality of then was a muzzle-loaded, single fire
musket.

And, even if anyone wants to play elementary games and claim literalism,
good luck with that, as that same text says nothing about ammunition,
keeping and bearing LOADED arms.

Patrick

*From:*Af [mailto:af-boun...@afmug.com] *On Behalf Of *Jeff Broadwick -
Lists
*Sent:* Monday, December 7, 2015 12:10 PM
    *To:* a

Re: [AFMUG] WAY OT: Concealed Carry handguns - which to buy and why

2015-12-07 Thread Sam Morris

I didn't remember that it was you that posted thatjust that someone 
had said that. (It is a common cry among gun control zealots however.)


I'm reminded of a meme I saw that went something like "Average response 
time for law enforcement - five minutes. Average response time for a 
.357 magnum - 2700 feet per second"


I probably didn't say it quite like the meme, but you get the general 
jist... :)



On 12/7/2015 12:28 PM, That One Guy /sarcasm wrote:

the paying the government to protect us is tongue in cheek, see the
attached image of greatness being supreme leader of nation peace through
obedience, disarmament making for no death shoot, imperial scum see
dominance in masterful power and soon dominate simple worlds

On Mon, Dec 7, 2015 at 12:19 PM, Sam Morris mailto:w...@csilogan.com>> wrote:

Couple of things here Patrick...and I mean these comments respectfully.

The SCOTUS disagrees with your interpretation of the Second
Amendment, as do roughly 120 million gun owners in America. The
opinions of liberal scholars means exactly squat.

Also, the first ten amendments (the Bill of Rights) can *not* be
altered without abolishing the entire US Constitution.

Getting back to the OP's question - I've carried everything from a
.45 Glock 19 Gen 4 to my Israeli-made .50 cal Desert Eagle. I'm a
big dude so I can get away with the larger guns and concealment. I
stopped carrying the DE only because I didn't want to shoot the bad
guy and kill three good guys standing behind him.

And I will say this to which whomever it was who said we pay the
government to protect us: At the same event where you and I met (in
St Louis) Patrick, I was walking back to my hotel (two blocks from
the event) after a long night of training and networking. It was
about 1:00 am. As I was walking back, two of St. Louis' finest
citizens (dirtbags) approached me, making it very clear that they
weren't selling girl scout cookies. When they were about 50 yards
away I took out my Glock and racked a round (I won't carry hot
because as someone else mentioned here it doesn't have a safety).
When these two scumbags heard that cartridge rack, they turned and
bolted. I saw nothing but assholes and elbows.

I didn't have to point my weapon at them or even show it to them,
much less fire it. However, had I not had it with me, I have every
reason to believe I'd likely not be here typing this to you.

Sam


On 12/7/2015 11:41 AM, Patrick Leary wrote:

Yawn. The general population never made that boast until the NRA
in the
1980s changed their tactics to spur slagging gun sales. They
moved the
conversation to patriotic themes, talk of freedom, and other pabulum
gobbled up by folks. Contrary to popular “conservative”
thinking, this
is not settled law. In fact, even Scalia has been clear it’s
quite open.
Part of the issue is the meaning of “arms” and “keep” and “bear,” as
well as the limits therein. But, even more important is how
modern gun
advocates neglect the entire first part of that amendment and
pretend it
does not exist at all, when rather, it is, in fact, the entire
modifying
context of the latter part of the sentence.

I quote;

"A well regulated Militia, being necessary to the security of a free
State, the right of the people to keep and bear Arms, shall not be
infringed."

The NRA has done yeoman’s work pretending that part of the amendment
does not exist. The “well regulated militia” is the subject, not
guns.
The rest of the sentence is the modifier. “People” in this case are
represented by each state’s militia.

There is a significant opinion among many scholars that individual
citizens have no right at all to a gun.

Secondly, no right is absolute. Government even grants itself the
authority to regulate our inalienable rights (capital
punishment, etc.).
Amendments can also be altered, like the idiot 18^th , in the
face of
changing realities. The reality of then was a muzzle-loaded,
single fire
musket.

And, even if anyone wants to play elementary games and claim
literalism,
good luck with that, as that same text says nothing about
ammunition,
keeping and bearing LOADED arms.

Patrick

*From:*Af [mailto:af-boun...@afmug.com
<mailto:af-boun...@afmug.com>] *On Behalf Of *Jeff Broadwick -
Lists
*Sent:* Monday, December 7, 2015 12:10 PM
    *To:* af@afmug.com <mailto:af@afmug.com>
*Subject:* Re: [AFMUG] WAY OT: Concealed Carry handguns - which
to buy

Re: [AFMUG] WAY OT: Concealed Carry handguns - which to buy and why

2015-12-07 Thread Josh Luthman

It's all fake!!!


Josh Luthman
Office: 937-552-2340
Direct: 937-552-2343
1100 Wayne St
Suite 1337
Troy, OH 45373

On Mon, Dec 7, 2015 at 1:33 PM, Chuck McCown  wrote:

> Their supermarkets are very well stocked...
>
> *From:* Mathew Howard 
> *Sent:* Monday, December 07, 2015 11:30 AM
> *To:* af 
> *Subject:* Re: [AFMUG] WAY OT: Concealed Carry handguns - which to buy
> and why
>
> So you're saying that you really don't think North Korea is the ideal
> society?! :P
>
> On Mon, Dec 7, 2015 at 12:28 PM, That One Guy /sarcasm <
> thatoneguyst...@gmail.com> wrote:
>
>> the paying the government to protect us is tongue in cheek, see the
>> attached image of greatness being supreme leader of nation peace through
>> obedience, disarmament making for no death shoot, imperial scum see
>> dominance in masterful power and soon dominate simple worlds
>>
>> On Mon, Dec 7, 2015 at 12:19 PM, Sam Morris  wrote:
>>
>>> Couple of things here Patrick...and I mean these comments respectfully.
>>>
>>> The SCOTUS disagrees with your interpretation of the Second Amendment,
>>> as do roughly 120 million gun owners in America. The opinions of liberal
>>> scholars means exactly squat.
>>>
>>> Also, the first ten amendments (the Bill of Rights) can *not* be altered
>>> without abolishing the entire US Constitution.
>>>
>>> Getting back to the OP's question - I've carried everything from a .45
>>> Glock 19 Gen 4 to my Israeli-made .50 cal Desert Eagle. I'm a big dude so I
>>> can get away with the larger guns and concealment. I stopped carrying the
>>> DE only because I didn't want to shoot the bad guy and kill three good guys
>>> standing behind him.
>>>
>>> And I will say this to which whomever it was who said we pay the
>>> government to protect us: At the same event where you and I met (in St
>>> Louis) Patrick, I was walking back to my hotel (two blocks from the event)
>>> after a long night of training and networking. It was about 1:00 am. As I
>>> was walking back, two of St. Louis' finest citizens (dirtbags) approached
>>> me, making it very clear that they weren't selling girl scout cookies. When
>>> they were about 50 yards away I took out my Glock and racked a round (I
>>> won't carry hot because as someone else mentioned here it doesn't have a
>>> safety). When these two scumbags heard that cartridge rack, they turned and
>>> bolted. I saw nothing but assholes and elbows.
>>>
>>> I didn't have to point my weapon at them or even show it to them, much
>>> less fire it. However, had I not had it with me, I have every reason to
>>> believe I'd likely not be here typing this to you.
>>>
>>> Sam
>>>
>>>
>>> On 12/7/2015 11:41 AM, Patrick Leary wrote:
>>>
>>>> Yawn. The general population never made that boast until the NRA in the
>>>> 1980s changed their tactics to spur slagging gun sales. They moved the
>>>> conversation to patriotic themes, talk of freedom, and other pabulum
>>>> gobbled up by folks. Contrary to popular “conservative” thinking, this
>>>> is not settled law. In fact, even Scalia has been clear it’s quite open.
>>>> Part of the issue is the meaning of “arms” and “keep” and “bear,” as
>>>> well as the limits therein. But, even more important is how modern gun
>>>> advocates neglect the entire first part of that amendment and pretend it
>>>> does not exist at all, when rather, it is, in fact, the entire modifying
>>>> context of the latter part of the sentence.
>>>>
>>>> I quote;
>>>>
>>>> "A well regulated Militia, being necessary to the security of a free
>>>> State, the right of the people to keep and bear Arms, shall not be
>>>> infringed."
>>>>
>>>> The NRA has done yeoman’s work pretending that part of the amendment
>>>> does not exist. The “well regulated militia” is the subject, not guns.
>>>> The rest of the sentence is the modifier. “People” in this case are
>>>> represented by each state’s militia.
>>>>
>>>> There is a significant opinion among many scholars that individual
>>>> citizens have no right at all to a gun.
>>>>
>>>> Secondly, no right is absolute. Government even grants itself the
>>>> authority to regulate our inalienable rights (capital punishment, etc.).
>>>> Amendments can also b

Re: [AFMUG] WAY OT: Concealed Carry handguns - which to buy and why

Their supermarkets are very well stocked...

From: Mathew Howard 
Sent: Monday, December 07, 2015 11:30 AM
To: af 
Subject: Re: [AFMUG] WAY OT: Concealed Carry handguns - which to buy and why

So you're saying that you really don't think North Korea is the ideal society?! 
:P

On Mon, Dec 7, 2015 at 12:28 PM, That One Guy /sarcasm 
 wrote:

  the paying the government to protect us is tongue in cheek, see the attached 
image of greatness being supreme leader of nation peace through obedience, 
disarmament making for no death shoot, imperial scum see dominance in masterful 
power and soon dominate simple worlds 

  On Mon, Dec 7, 2015 at 12:19 PM, Sam Morris  wrote:

Couple of things here Patrick...and I mean these comments respectfully.

The SCOTUS disagrees with your interpretation of the Second Amendment, as 
do roughly 120 million gun owners in America. The opinions of liberal scholars 
means exactly squat.

Also, the first ten amendments (the Bill of Rights) can *not* be altered 
without abolishing the entire US Constitution.

Getting back to the OP's question - I've carried everything from a .45 
Glock 19 Gen 4 to my Israeli-made .50 cal Desert Eagle. I'm a big dude so I can 
get away with the larger guns and concealment. I stopped carrying the DE only 
because I didn't want to shoot the bad guy and kill three good guys standing 
behind him.

And I will say this to which whomever it was who said we pay the government 
to protect us: At the same event where you and I met (in St Louis) Patrick, I 
was walking back to my hotel (two blocks from the event) after a long night of 
training and networking. It was about 1:00 am. As I was walking back, two of 
St. Louis' finest citizens (dirtbags) approached me, making it very clear that 
they weren't selling girl scout cookies. When they were about 50 yards away I 
took out my Glock and racked a round (I won't carry hot because as someone else 
mentioned here it doesn't have a safety). When these two scumbags heard that 
cartridge rack, they turned and bolted. I saw nothing but assholes and elbows.

I didn't have to point my weapon at them or even show it to them, much less 
fire it. However, had I not had it with me, I have every reason to believe I'd 
likely not be here typing this to you.

Sam

On 12/7/2015 11:41 AM, Patrick Leary wrote:

  Yawn. The general population never made that boast until the NRA in the
  1980s changed their tactics to spur slagging gun sales. They moved the
  conversation to patriotic themes, talk of freedom, and other pabulum
  gobbled up by folks. Contrary to popular “conservative” thinking, this
  is not settled law. In fact, even Scalia has been clear it’s quite open.
  Part of the issue is the meaning of “arms” and “keep” and “bear,” as
  well as the limits therein. But, even more important is how modern gun
  advocates neglect the entire first part of that amendment and pretend it
  does not exist at all, when rather, it is, in fact, the entire modifying
  context of the latter part of the sentence.

  I quote;

  "A well regulated Militia, being necessary to the security of a free
  State, the right of the people to keep and bear Arms, shall not be
  infringed."

  The NRA has done yeoman’s work pretending that part of the amendment
  does not exist. The “well regulated militia” is the subject, not guns.
  The rest of the sentence is the modifier. “People” in this case are
  represented by each state’s militia.

  There is a significant opinion among many scholars that individual
  citizens have no right at all to a gun.

  Secondly, no right is absolute. Government even grants itself the
  authority to regulate our inalienable rights (capital punishment, etc.).
  Amendments can also be altered, like the idiot 18^th , in the face of
  changing realities. The reality of then was a muzzle-loaded, single fire
  musket.

  And, even if anyone wants to play elementary games and claim literalism,
  good luck with that, as that same text says nothing about ammunition,
  keeping and bearing LOADED arms.

  Patrick

  *From:*Af [mailto:af-boun...@afmug.com] *On Behalf Of *Jeff Broadwick -
  Lists
  *Sent:* Monday, December 7, 2015 12:10 PM
  *To:* af@afmug.com
      *Subject:* Re: [AFMUG] WAY OT: Concealed Carry handguns - which to buy
  and why

  Since when is a discussion of our legal, Constitutional rights
  "pathetic" Patrick?  We are talking about a tool, like any other, that
  can be used to protect ourselves and others.  WISPs are often out in
  remote places in the dead of night...or at inner city data centers.
They are vulnerable.  I know that one person on this list would likely
  not be here right now if he hadn't been able to show a gun

Re: [AFMUG] WAY OT: Concealed Carry handguns - which to buy and why

So you're saying that you really don't think North Korea is the ideal
society?! :P

On Mon, Dec 7, 2015 at 12:28 PM, That One Guy /sarcasm <
thatoneguyst...@gmail.com> wrote:

> the paying the government to protect us is tongue in cheek, see the
> attached image of greatness being supreme leader of nation peace through
> obedience, disarmament making for no death shoot, imperial scum see
> dominance in masterful power and soon dominate simple worlds
>
> On Mon, Dec 7, 2015 at 12:19 PM, Sam Morris  wrote:
>
>> Couple of things here Patrick...and I mean these comments respectfully.
>>
>> The SCOTUS disagrees with your interpretation of the Second Amendment, as
>> do roughly 120 million gun owners in America. The opinions of liberal
>> scholars means exactly squat.
>>
>> Also, the first ten amendments (the Bill of Rights) can *not* be altered
>> without abolishing the entire US Constitution.
>>
>> Getting back to the OP's question - I've carried everything from a .45
>> Glock 19 Gen 4 to my Israeli-made .50 cal Desert Eagle. I'm a big dude so I
>> can get away with the larger guns and concealment. I stopped carrying the
>> DE only because I didn't want to shoot the bad guy and kill three good guys
>> standing behind him.
>>
>> And I will say this to which whomever it was who said we pay the
>> government to protect us: At the same event where you and I met (in St
>> Louis) Patrick, I was walking back to my hotel (two blocks from the event)
>> after a long night of training and networking. It was about 1:00 am. As I
>> was walking back, two of St. Louis' finest citizens (dirtbags) approached
>> me, making it very clear that they weren't selling girl scout cookies. When
>> they were about 50 yards away I took out my Glock and racked a round (I
>> won't carry hot because as someone else mentioned here it doesn't have a
>> safety). When these two scumbags heard that cartridge rack, they turned and
>> bolted. I saw nothing but assholes and elbows.
>>
>> I didn't have to point my weapon at them or even show it to them, much
>> less fire it. However, had I not had it with me, I have every reason to
>> believe I'd likely not be here typing this to you.
>>
>> Sam
>>
>>
>> On 12/7/2015 11:41 AM, Patrick Leary wrote:
>>
>>> Yawn. The general population never made that boast until the NRA in the
>>> 1980s changed their tactics to spur slagging gun sales. They moved the
>>> conversation to patriotic themes, talk of freedom, and other pabulum
>>> gobbled up by folks. Contrary to popular “conservative” thinking, this
>>> is not settled law. In fact, even Scalia has been clear it’s quite open.
>>> Part of the issue is the meaning of “arms” and “keep” and “bear,” as
>>> well as the limits therein. But, even more important is how modern gun
>>> advocates neglect the entire first part of that amendment and pretend it
>>> does not exist at all, when rather, it is, in fact, the entire modifying
>>> context of the latter part of the sentence.
>>>
>>> I quote;
>>>
>>> "A well regulated Militia, being necessary to the security of a free
>>> State, the right of the people to keep and bear Arms, shall not be
>>> infringed."
>>>
>>> The NRA has done yeoman’s work pretending that part of the amendment
>>> does not exist. The “well regulated militia” is the subject, not guns.
>>> The rest of the sentence is the modifier. “People” in this case are
>>> represented by each state’s militia.
>>>
>>> There is a significant opinion among many scholars that individual
>>> citizens have no right at all to a gun.
>>>
>>> Secondly, no right is absolute. Government even grants itself the
>>> authority to regulate our inalienable rights (capital punishment, etc.).
>>> Amendments can also be altered, like the idiot 18^th , in the face of
>>> changing realities. The reality of then was a muzzle-loaded, single fire
>>> musket.
>>>
>>> And, even if anyone wants to play elementary games and claim literalism,
>>> good luck with that, as that same text says nothing about ammunition,
>>> keeping and bearing LOADED arms.
>>>
>>> Patrick
>>>
>>> *From:*Af [mailto:af-boun...@afmug.com] *On Behalf Of *Jeff Broadwick -
>>> Lists
>>> *Sent:* Monday, December 7, 2015 12:10 PM
>>> *To:* af@afmug.com
>>> *Subject:* Re: [AFMUG] WAY OT: Concealed Carry handguns - which to buy
>>>

Re: [AFMUG] WAY OT: Concealed Carry handguns - which to buy and why

the paying the government to protect us is tongue in cheek, see the
attached image of greatness being supreme leader of nation peace through
obedience, disarmament making for no death shoot, imperial scum see
dominance in masterful power and soon dominate simple worlds

On Mon, Dec 7, 2015 at 12:19 PM, Sam Morris  wrote:

> Couple of things here Patrick...and I mean these comments respectfully.
>
> The SCOTUS disagrees with your interpretation of the Second Amendment, as
> do roughly 120 million gun owners in America. The opinions of liberal
> scholars means exactly squat.
>
> Also, the first ten amendments (the Bill of Rights) can *not* be altered
> without abolishing the entire US Constitution.
>
> Getting back to the OP's question - I've carried everything from a .45
> Glock 19 Gen 4 to my Israeli-made .50 cal Desert Eagle. I'm a big dude so I
> can get away with the larger guns and concealment. I stopped carrying the
> DE only because I didn't want to shoot the bad guy and kill three good guys
> standing behind him.
>
> And I will say this to which whomever it was who said we pay the
> government to protect us: At the same event where you and I met (in St
> Louis) Patrick, I was walking back to my hotel (two blocks from the event)
> after a long night of training and networking. It was about 1:00 am. As I
> was walking back, two of St. Louis' finest citizens (dirtbags) approached
> me, making it very clear that they weren't selling girl scout cookies. When
> they were about 50 yards away I took out my Glock and racked a round (I
> won't carry hot because as someone else mentioned here it doesn't have a
> safety). When these two scumbags heard that cartridge rack, they turned and
> bolted. I saw nothing but assholes and elbows.
>
> I didn't have to point my weapon at them or even show it to them, much
> less fire it. However, had I not had it with me, I have every reason to
> believe I'd likely not be here typing this to you.
>
> Sam
>
>
> On 12/7/2015 11:41 AM, Patrick Leary wrote:
>
>> Yawn. The general population never made that boast until the NRA in the
>> 1980s changed their tactics to spur slagging gun sales. They moved the
>> conversation to patriotic themes, talk of freedom, and other pabulum
>> gobbled up by folks. Contrary to popular “conservative” thinking, this
>> is not settled law. In fact, even Scalia has been clear it’s quite open.
>> Part of the issue is the meaning of “arms” and “keep” and “bear,” as
>> well as the limits therein. But, even more important is how modern gun
>> advocates neglect the entire first part of that amendment and pretend it
>> does not exist at all, when rather, it is, in fact, the entire modifying
>> context of the latter part of the sentence.
>>
>> I quote;
>>
>> "A well regulated Militia, being necessary to the security of a free
>> State, the right of the people to keep and bear Arms, shall not be
>> infringed."
>>
>> The NRA has done yeoman’s work pretending that part of the amendment
>> does not exist. The “well regulated militia” is the subject, not guns.
>> The rest of the sentence is the modifier. “People” in this case are
>> represented by each state’s militia.
>>
>> There is a significant opinion among many scholars that individual
>> citizens have no right at all to a gun.
>>
>> Secondly, no right is absolute. Government even grants itself the
>> authority to regulate our inalienable rights (capital punishment, etc.).
>> Amendments can also be altered, like the idiot 18^th , in the face of
>> changing realities. The reality of then was a muzzle-loaded, single fire
>> musket.
>>
>> And, even if anyone wants to play elementary games and claim literalism,
>> good luck with that, as that same text says nothing about ammunition,
>> keeping and bearing LOADED arms.
>>
>> Patrick
>>
>> *From:*Af [mailto:af-boun...@afmug.com] *On Behalf Of *Jeff Broadwick -
>> Lists
>> *Sent:* Monday, December 7, 2015 12:10 PM
>> *To:* af@afmug.com
>> *Subject:* Re: [AFMUG] WAY OT: Concealed Carry handguns - which to buy
>> and why
>>
>> Since when is a discussion of our legal, Constitutional rights
>> "pathetic" Patrick?  We are talking about a tool, like any other, that
>> can be used to protect ourselves and others.  WISPs are often out in
>> remote places in the dead of night...or at inner city data centers.
>>   They are vulnerable.  I know that one person on this list would likely
>> not be here right now if he hadn't been able to show a gun to someone
>> that was about to bash him with

Re: [AFMUG] WAY OT: Concealed Carry handguns - which to buy and why

2015-12-07 Thread Sam Morris

Couple of things here Patrick...and I mean these comments respectfully.

The SCOTUS disagrees with your interpretation of the Second Amendment,
as do roughly 120 million gun owners in America. The opinions of liberal
scholars means exactly squat.

Also, the first ten amendments (the Bill of Rights) can *not* be altered
without abolishing the entire US Constitution.

Getting back to the OP's question - I've carried everything from a .45
Glock 19 Gen 4 to my Israeli-made .50 cal Desert Eagle. I'm a big dude
so I can get away with the larger guns and concealment. I stopped
carrying the DE only because I didn't want to shoot the bad guy and kill
three good guys standing behind him.

And I will say this to which whomever it was who said we pay the
government to protect us: At the same event where you and I met (in St
Louis) Patrick, I was walking back to my hotel (two blocks from the
event) after a long night of training and networking. It was about 1:00
am. As I was walking back, two of St. Louis' finest citizens (dirtbags)
approached me, making it very clear that they weren't selling girl scout
cookies. When they were about 50 yards away I took out my Glock and
racked a round (I won't carry hot because as someone else mentioned here
it doesn't have a safety). When these two scumbags heard that cartridge
rack, they turned and bolted. I saw nothing but assholes and elbows.

I didn't have to point my weapon at them or even show it to them, much
less fire it. However, had I not had it with me, I have every reason to
believe I'd likely not be here typing this to you.

Sam

On 12/7/2015 11:41 AM, Patrick Leary wrote:

Yawn. The general population never made that boast until the NRA in the
1980s changed their tactics to spur slagging gun sales. They moved the
conversation to patriotic themes, talk of freedom, and other pabulum
gobbled up by folks. Contrary to popular “conservative” thinking, this
is not settled law. In fact, even Scalia has been clear it’s quite open.
Part of the issue is the meaning of “arms” and “keep” and “bear,” as
well as the limits therein. But, even more important is how modern gun
advocates neglect the entire first part of that amendment and pretend it
does not exist at all, when rather, it is, in fact, the entire modifying
context of the latter part of the sentence.

I quote;

"A well regulated Militia, being necessary to the security of a free
State, the right of the people to keep and bear Arms, shall not be
infringed."

The NRA has done yeoman’s work pretending that part of the amendment
does not exist. The “well regulated militia” is the subject, not guns.
The rest of the sentence is the modifier. “People” in this case are
represented by each state’s militia.

There is a significant opinion among many scholars that individual
citizens have no right at all to a gun.

Secondly, no right is absolute. Government even grants itself the
authority to regulate our inalienable rights (capital punishment, etc.).
Amendments can also be altered, like the idiot 18^th , in the face of
changing realities. The reality of then was a muzzle-loaded, single fire
musket.

And, even if anyone wants to play elementary games and claim literalism,
good luck with that, as that same text says nothing about ammunition,
keeping and bearing LOADED arms.

Patrick

*From:*Af [mailto:af-boun...@afmug.com] *On Behalf Of *Jeff Broadwick -
Lists
*Sent:* Monday, December 7, 2015 12:10 PM
*To:* af@afmug.com
*Subject:* Re: [AFMUG] WAY OT: Concealed Carry handguns - which to buy
and why

Since when is a discussion of our legal, Constitutional rights
"pathetic" Patrick? We are talking about a tool, like any other, that
can be used to protect ourselves and others. WISPs are often out in
remote places in the dead of night...or at inner city data centers.
They are vulnerable. I know that one person on this list would likely
not be here right now if he hadn't been able to show a gun to someone
that was about to bash him with a baseball bat outside a data center.

Jeff Broadwick

ConVergence Technologies, Inc.

312-205-2519 Office

574-220-7826 Cell

jbroadw...@converge-tech.com <mailto:jbroadw...@converge-tech.com>

On Dec 7, 2015, at 11:58 AM, Patrick Leary mailto:patrick.le...@telrad.com>> wrote:

“All the more surprising, then, that Texas was the first state to
ban its citizens from carrying handguns, a restriction that remained
on the books for 125 years.”

http://www.houstonchronicle.com/news/politics/texas/article/First-to-ban-open-carry-Texas-could-be-one-of-5974401.php

And just

Re: [AFMUG] WAY OT: Concealed Carry handguns - which to buy and why

☺ Yes. Sigh. See ya for now. I do know better than to jump in to these sorts of 
“religious” threads, but I did it in spite of that. Back to work!

Patrick Leary, Telrad
727-501-3735

From: Af [mailto:af-boun...@afmug.com] On Behalf Of Chuck McCown
Sent: Monday, December 7, 2015 12:44 PM
To: af@afmug.com
Subject: Re: [AFMUG] WAY OT: Concealed Carry handguns - which to buy and why

It’s not gonna change – perhaps the serenity prayer could help?

From: Patrick Leary<mailto:patrick.le...@telrad.com>
Sent: Monday, December 07, 2015 10:41 AM
To: af@afmug.com<mailto:af@afmug.com>
Subject: Re: [AFMUG] WAY OT: Concealed Carry handguns - which to buy and why

Yawn. The general population never made that boast until the NRA in the 1980s 
changed their tactics to spur slagging gun sales. They moved the conversation 
to patriotic themes, talk of freedom, and other pabulum gobbled up by folks. 
Contrary to popular “conservative” thinking, this is not settled law. In fact, 
even Scalia has been clear it’s quite open. Part of the issue is the meaning of 
“arms” and “keep” and “bear,” as well as the limits therein. But, even more 
important is how modern gun advocates neglect the entire first part of that 
amendment and pretend it does not exist at all, when rather, it is, in fact, 
the entire modifying context of the latter part of the sentence.

I quote;

"A well regulated Militia, being necessary to the security of a free State, the 
right of the people to keep and bear Arms, shall not be infringed."

The NRA has done yeoman’s work pretending that part of the amendment does not 
exist. The “well regulated militia” is the subject, not guns. The rest of the 
sentence is the modifier. “People” in this case are represented by each state’s 
militia.

There is a significant opinion among many scholars that individual citizens 
have no right at all to a gun.

Secondly, no right is absolute. Government even grants itself the authority to 
regulate our inalienable rights (capital punishment, etc.). Amendments can also 
be altered, like the idiot 18th, in the face of changing realities. The reality 
of then was a muzzle-loaded, single fire musket.

And, even if anyone wants to play elementary games and claim literalism, good 
luck with that, as that same text says nothing about ammunition, keeping and 
bearing LOADED arms.

Patrick

From: Af [mailto:af-boun...@afmug.com] On Behalf Of Jeff Broadwick - Lists
Sent: Monday, December 7, 2015 12:10 PM
To: af@afmug.com<mailto:af@afmug.com>
Subject: Re: [AFMUG] WAY OT: Concealed Carry handguns - which to buy and why

Since when is a discussion of our legal, Constitutional rights "pathetic" 
Patrick?  We are talking about a tool, like any other, that can be used to 
protect ourselves and others.  WISPs are often out in remote places in the dead 
of night...or at inner city data centers.  They are vulnerable.  I know that 
one person on this list would likely not be here right now if he hadn't been 
able to show a gun to someone that was about to bash him with a baseball bat 
outside a data center.

Jeff Broadwick
ConVergence Technologies, Inc.
312-205-2519 Office
574-220-7826 Cell
jbroadw...@converge-tech.com<mailto:jbroadw...@converge-tech.com>

On Dec 7, 2015, at 11:58 AM, Patrick Leary 
mailto:patrick.le...@telrad.com>> wrote:
I’ll just note this is a pathetic thread to have in any society that considers 
itself civil. Hell, even in the “wild west” the local law had people check 
their weapons into the sheriff when they came into town. In fact, formerly, 
states like Texas lead the country in banning open carry.

“All the more surprising, then, that Texas was the first state to ban its 
citizens from carrying handguns, a restriction that remained on the books for 
125 years.” 
http://www.houstonchronicle.com/news/politics/texas/article/First-to-ban-open-carry-Texas-could-be-one-of-5974401.php

And just read this scholarly article from 1999:

Gun Control and the Old West
By Ross Collins
History News Service<http://www2.h-net.msu.edu/~hns/index.html>, Summer 1999.

The smoke has cleared, and we peer down at the victim: another gun control 
bill, shot full ‘o holes. Just like in the old horse operas: a hero again 
shoots to protect a precious freedom, America’s right to bear arms. For many 
who keep a romantic image of America’s past, gun control is like that, a battle 
steeped in American tradition. It calls us back to those legendary days of the 
Old West, when cowboys defended their honor and their horses by way of their 
Colts
.
In fact, most historians see the cowboys of the Old West as THE defining heroes 
of 20th-century America. He’s used to sell everything from soap to hats. He’s 
apparently also an ideal American for anti-gun control groups: gun shows and 
gun advertising promote from a distinctive Old West flavor.

Today’s anti gun control forces count their strongest support among society’s 
leaders from the stat

Re: [AFMUG] WAY OT: Concealed Carry handguns - which to buy and why

+1 Awesome little gun. I bought one when it first came out. And one of, 
if not the, best warranties on the planet, even if you're not the 
original owner.


On 12/7/2015 10:09 AM, Josh Reynolds wrote:


Springfield XDS in 9mm.

More capacity than .40 with much less recoil for better follow up 
shots. Some will swear by .45, but there are reasons every high level 
law enforcement officer and military operators I have ever met or 
heard of carry a 9mm when given a choice. Shot placement counts.


Great pistol, very durable, excellent price. Also, has a thumb safety 
on certain SKUs.


Now queue the army of glock fanboys.

On Dec 7, 2015 10:03 AM, "Paul McCall" > wrote:


I am getting my CC permit (Florida) in a week or so.  I took an
absolutely excellent class from the main trainer at the Brevard
county sheriff’s office.

Now, I am looking for an excellent CC gun to use, as my long
barrel Colt 38 is not a good fit for that.

I am certain that this group probably has a LOT of expertise (and
many opinions) on THE gun to use.

J

Paul McCall, Pres.

PDMNet / Florida Broadband

658 Old Dixie Highway

Vero Beach, FL 32962

772-564-6800  office

772-473-0352  cell

www.pdmnet.com 

pa...@pdmnet.net

Re: [AFMUG] WAY OT: Concealed Carry handguns - which to buy and why

The bill of rights doesn't define rights for the state, it defines what
the rights of the people are. Arms would be a weapon you can carry,
same meaning in Shakespeare as it is today. It's possible the nuanced
implications of keeping and bearing have changed over a couple of
centuries I suppose.

My opinionwhether or not it's popular...is that there are good and
sensible reasons to limit access to some types of weapons, but if we can
do that without changing the second amendment beforehand then there's no
purpose to having the constitution or any of its amendments. If we use
a tax law or commerce regulation to skirt around the second amendment,
then we could do the same thing with any of the others.

On 12/7/2015 12:41 PM, Patrick Leary wrote:

Yawn. The general population never made that boast until the NRA in
the 1980s changed their tactics to spur slagging gun sales. They moved
the conversation to patriotic themes, talk of freedom, and other
pabulum gobbled up by folks. Contrary to popular “conservative”
thinking, this is not settled law. In fact, even Scalia has been clear
it’s quite open. Part of the issue is the meaning of “arms” and “keep”
and “bear,” as well as the limits therein. But, even more important is
how modern gun advocates neglect the entire first part of that
amendment and pretend it does not exist at all, when rather, it is, in
fact, the entire modifying context of the latter part of the sentence.

I quote;

"A well regulated Militia, being necessary to the security of a free
State, the right of the people to keep and bear Arms, shall not be
infringed."

There is a significant opinion among many scholars that individual
citizens have no right at all to a gun.

Secondly, no right is absolute. Government even grants itself the
authority to regulate our inalienable rights (capital punishment,
etc.). Amendments can also be altered, like the idiot 18^th , in the
face of changing realities. The reality of then was a muzzle-loaded,
single fire musket.

And, even if anyone wants to play elementary games and claim
literalism, good luck with that, as that same text says nothing about
ammunition, keeping and bearing LOADED arms.

Patrick

*From:*Af [mailto:af-boun...@afmug.com] *On Behalf Of *Jeff Broadwick
- Lists

*Sent:* Monday, December 7, 2015 12:10 PM
*To:* af@afmug.com
*Subject:* Re: [AFMUG] WAY OT: Concealed Carry handguns - which to buy
and why

Since when is a discussion of our legal, Constitutional rights
"pathetic" Patrick? We are talking about a tool, like any other, that
can be used to protect ourselves and others. WISPs are often out in
remote places in the dead of night...or at inner city data centers.
They are vulnerable. I know that one person on this list would
likely not be here right now if he hadn't been able to show a gun to
someone that was about to bash him with a baseball bat outside a data
center.

Jeff Broadwick

ConVergence Technologies, Inc.

312-205-2519 Office

574-220-7826 Cell

jbroadw...@converge-tech.com <mailto:jbroadw...@converge-tech.com>

On Dec 7, 2015, at 11:58 AM, Patrick Leary <mailto:patrick.le...@telrad.com>> wrote:

I’ll just note this is a pathetic thread to have in any society
that considers itself civil. Hell, even in the “wild west” the
local law had people check their weapons into the sheriff when
they came into town. In fact, formerly, states like Texas lead the
country in banning open carry.

“All the more surprising, then, that Texas was the first state to
ban its citizens from carrying handguns, a restriction that
remained on the books for 125 years.”

http://www.houstonchronicle.com/news/politics/texas/article/First-to-ban-open-carry-Texas-could-be-one-of-5974401.php

And just read this scholarly article from 1999:

*Gun Control and the Old West*
By Ross Collins
History News Service
<http://www2.h-net.msu.edu/%7Ehns/index.html>, Summer 1999.

The smoke has cleared, and we peer down at the victim: another gun
control bill, shot full ‘o holes. Just like in the old horse
operas: a hero again shoots to protect a precious freedom,
America’s right to bear arms. For many who keep a romantic image
of America’s past, gun control is like that, a battle steeped in
American tradition. It calls us back to those legendary days of
the Old West, when cowboys defended their honor and their horses
by way of their Colts
.
In fact, most historians see the cowboys of the Old West as THE
defining heroes of 20th-century America. He’s used to sell
everything from soap to hats. He’s apparently

Re: [AFMUG] WAY OT: Concealed Carry handguns - which to buy and why

Frankly, the data from both sides is untrustworthy. It's impossible to
have a fact based discussion on this topic.

On 12/7/2015 1:00 PM, Brett A Mansfield wrote:
Because the liberal data collected is reliable? That law was passed
because it's been proven time and again that the reports and data have
been falsified and therefore cannot be trusted.

The 2nd amendment is never ignored in any capacity by the
conservatives. That is there entirely for the protection of the people
from the government. And arms cannot be arms without ammunition, so it
does say something about ammunition with that word.

Thank you,
Brett A Mansfield

On Dec 7, 2015, at 10:50 AM, Patrick Leary <mailto:patrick.le...@telrad.com>> wrote:

I understand feelings too, but I like facts better. Most the facts
are pretty clear, at least those we know. We don’t know many because
some politicians voted to make sure the CDC can’t even collect any
data or do research on gun violence. That’s sort of like how NC
politicians passed a law preventing state development authorities
from even considering climate change data in their planning. Ergo,
when one side goes to great lengths to even prevent collection of
information or use it, we can reasonably surmise those people know
they have something to hide..

-Patrick

*From:*Af [mailto:af-boun...@afmug.com] *On Behalf Of *Adam Moffett
*Sent:* Monday, December 7, 2015 12:41 PM
*To:* af@afmug.com <mailto:af@afmug.com>
*Subject:* Re: [AFMUG] WAY OT: Concealed Carry handguns - which to
buy and why

They're talking about concealed carry with a permit. They are
already submitting to a form of gun control by bothering to get a permit.

I'm not entirely sure how the articles about open carry are related,
other than they're both gun related issues.

I have personally never felt the need to carry a gun, but I can
understand how it might make people feel safer depending on their
circumstances.

On 12/7/2015 11:58 AM, Patrick Leary wrote:

I’ll just note this is a pathetic thread to have in any society
that considers itself civil. Hell, even in the “wild west” the
local law had people check their weapons into the sheriff when
they came into town. In fact, formerly, states like Texas lead
the country in banning open carry.

“All the more surprising, then, that Texas was the first state to
ban its citizens from carrying handguns, a restriction that
remained on the books for 125 years.”

http://www.houstonchronicle.com/news/politics/texas/article/First-to-ban-open-carry-Texas-could-be-one-of-5974401.php

And just read this scholarly article from 1999:

*Gun Control and the Old West*
By Ross Collins
History News Service
<http://www2.h-net.msu.edu/%7Ehns/index.html>, Summer 1999.

The smoke has cleared, and we peer down at the victim: another
gun control bill, shot full ‘o holes. Just like in the old horse
operas: a hero again shoots to protect a precious freedom,
America’s right to bear arms. For many who keep a romantic image
of America’s past, gun control is like that, a battle steeped in
American tradition. It calls us back to those legendary days of
the Old West, when cowboys defended their honor and their horses
by way of their Colts
.
In fact, most historians see the cowboys of the Old West as THE
defining heroes of 20th-century America. He’s used to sell
everything from soap to hats. He’s apparently also an ideal
American for anti-gun control groups: gun shows and gun
advertising promote from a distinctive Old West flavor.

Today’s anti gun control forces count their strongest support
among society’s leaders from the states that once formed part of
the Old West.
The actual Old West pioneers of historical fact viewed matters
differently, however. They would certainly hail the campaign to
protect an American right to bear arms, but the record puts them
behind "moderate, common-sense measures" for gun control—the very
kind that President Clinton has proposed.

Re: [AFMUG] WAY OT: Concealed Carry handguns - which to buy and why

2015-12-07 Thread Brett A Mansfield

Because the liberal data collected is reliable? That law was passed because 
it's been proven time and again that the reports and data have been falsified 
and therefore cannot be trusted.

The 2nd amendment is never ignored in any capacity by the conservatives. That 
is there entirely for the protection of the people from the government. And 
arms cannot be arms without ammunition, so it does say something about 
ammunition with that word.

Thank you,
Brett A Mansfield

> On Dec 7, 2015, at 10:50 AM, Patrick Leary  wrote:
> 
> I understand feelings too, but I like facts better. Most the facts are pretty 
> clear, at least those we know. We don’t know many because some politicians 
> voted to make sure the CDC can’t even collect any data or do research on gun 
> violence. That’s sort of like how NC politicians passed a law preventing 
> state development authorities from even considering climate change data in 
> their planning. Ergo, when one side goes to great lengths to even prevent 
> collection of information or use it, we can reasonably surmise those people 
> know they have something to hide..
>  
> -  Patrick
>  
> From: Af [mailto:af-boun...@afmug.com] On Behalf Of Adam Moffett
> Sent: Monday, December 7, 2015 12:41 PM
> To: af@afmug.com
> Subject: Re: [AFMUG] WAY OT: Concealed Carry handguns - which to buy and why
>  
> They're talking about concealed carry with a permit.  They are already 
> submitting to a form of gun control by bothering to get a permit.
> 
> I'm not entirely sure how the articles about open carry are related, other 
> than they're both gun related issues.
> 
> I have personally never felt the need to carry a gun, but I can understand 
> how it might make people feel safer depending on their circumstances.
> 
> 
> On 12/7/2015 11:58 AM, Patrick Leary wrote:
> I’ll just note this is a pathetic thread to have in any society that 
> considers itself civil. Hell, even in the “wild west” the local law had 
> people check their weapons into the sheriff when they came into town. In 
> fact, formerly, states like Texas lead the country in banning open carry.
>  
> “All the more surprising, then, that Texas was the first state to ban its 
> citizens from carrying handguns, a restriction that remained on the books for 
> 125 years.” 
> http://www.houstonchronicle.com/news/politics/texas/article/First-to-ban-open-carry-Texas-could-be-one-of-5974401.php
>  
> And just read this scholarly article from 1999:
>  
> Gun Control and the Old West
> By Ross Collins
> History News Service, Summer 1999.
> 
> The smoke has cleared, and we peer down at the victim: another gun control 
> bill, shot full ‘o holes. Just like in the old horse operas: a hero again 
> shoots to protect a precious freedom, America’s right to bear arms. For many 
> who keep a romantic image of America’s past, gun control is like that, a 
> battle steeped in American tradition. It calls us back to those legendary 
> days of the Old West, when cowboys defended their honor and their horses by 
> way of their Colts
> .
> In fact, most historians see the cowboys of the Old West as THE defining 
> heroes of 20th-century America. He’s used to sell everything from soap to 
> hats. He’s apparently also an ideal American for anti-gun control groups: gun 
> shows and gun advertising promote from a distinctive Old West flavor. 
> 
> Today’s anti gun control forces count their strongest support among society’s 
> leaders from the states that once formed part of the Old West.
> The actual Old West pioneers of historical fact viewed matters differently, 
> however. They would certainly hail the campaign to protect an American right 
> to bear arms, but the record puts them behind "moderate, common-sense 
> measures" for gun control—the very kind that President Clinton has proposed.
> 
> Pioneer publications show Old West leaders repeatedly arguing in favor of gun 
> control. City leaders in the old cattle towns knew from experience what some 
> Americans today don't want to believe: a town which allows easy access to 
> guns invites trouble.
> What these cow town leaders saw intimately in their day-to-day association 
> with guns is that more guns in more places caused not greater safety, but 
> greater death in an already dangerous wilderness. By the 1880s many in the 
> west were fed up with gun violence. Gun control, they contended, was 
> absolutely essential, and the remedy advocated usually was usually no less 
> than a total ban on pistol-packing.
> The editor of the Black Hills Daily Times of Dakota Territory in 1884, called 
> the idea of carrying firearms into the city a “dangerous practice,” not only 
> to others, but to the packer himself. He emp

Re: [AFMUG] WAY OT: Concealed Carry handguns - which to buy and why

I understand feelings too, but I like facts better. Most the facts are pretty 
clear, at least those we know. We don’t know many because some politicians 
voted to make sure the CDC can’t even collect any data or do research on gun 
violence. That’s sort of like how NC politicians passed a law preventing state 
development authorities from even considering climate change data in their 
planning. Ergo, when one side goes to great lengths to even prevent collection 
of information or use it, we can reasonably surmise those people know they have 
something to hide..


-  Patrick

From: Af [mailto:af-boun...@afmug.com] On Behalf Of Adam Moffett
Sent: Monday, December 7, 2015 12:41 PM
To: af@afmug.com
Subject: Re: [AFMUG] WAY OT: Concealed Carry handguns - which to buy and why

They're talking about concealed carry with a permit.  They are already 
submitting to a form of gun control by bothering to get a permit.

I'm not entirely sure how the articles about open carry are related, other than 
they're both gun related issues.

I have personally never felt the need to carry a gun, but I can understand how 
it might make people feel safer depending on their circumstances.

On 12/7/2015 11:58 AM, Patrick Leary wrote:
I’ll just note this is a pathetic thread to have in any society that considers 
itself civil. Hell, even in the “wild west” the local law had people check 
their weapons into the sheriff when they came into town. In fact, formerly, 
states like Texas lead the country in banning open carry.

“All the more surprising, then, that Texas was the first state to ban its 
citizens from carrying handguns, a restriction that remained on the books for 
125 years.” 
http://www.houstonchronicle.com/news/politics/texas/article/First-to-ban-open-carry-Texas-could-be-one-of-5974401.php

And just read this scholarly article from 1999:


Gun Control and the Old West
By Ross Collins
History News Service<http://www2.h-net.msu.edu/%7Ehns/index.html>, Summer 1999.

The smoke has cleared, and we peer down at the victim: another gun control 
bill, shot full ‘o holes. Just like in the old horse operas: a hero again 
shoots to protect a precious freedom, America’s right to bear arms. For many 
who keep a romantic image of America’s past, gun control is like that, a battle 
steeped in American tradition. It calls us back to those legendary days of the 
Old West, when cowboys defended their honor and their horses by way of their 
Colts
.
In fact, most historians see the cowboys of the Old West as THE defining heroes 
of 20th-century America. He’s used to sell everything from soap to hats. He’s 
apparently also an ideal American for anti-gun control groups: gun shows and 
gun advertising promote from a distinctive Old West flavor.

Today’s anti gun control forces count their strongest support among society’s 
leaders from the states that once formed part of the Old West.
The actual Old West pioneers of historical fact viewed matters differently, 
however. They would certainly hail the campaign to protect an American right to 
bear arms, but the record puts them behind "moderate, common-sense measures" 
for gun control—the very kind that President Clinton has proposed.

Pioneer publications show Old West leaders repeatedly arguing in favor of gun 
control. City leaders in the old cattle towns knew from experience what some 
Americans today don't want to believe: a town which allows easy access to guns 
invites trouble.
What these cow town leaders saw intimately in their day-to-day association with 
guns is that more guns in more places caused not greater safety, but greater 
death in an already dangerous wilderness. By the 1880s many in the west were 
fed up with gun violence. Gun control, they contended, was absolutely 
essential, and the remedy advocated usually was usually no less than a total 
ban on pistol-packing.
The editor of the Black Hills Daily Times of Dakota Territory in 1884, called 
the idea of carrying firearms into the city a “dangerous practice,” not only to 
others, but to the packer himself. He emphasized his point with the headline, 
"Perforated by His Own Pistol."
The editor of the Montana’s Yellowstone Journal acknowledged four years earlier 
that Americans have "the right to bear arms," but he contended that guns have 
to be regulated. As for cowboys carrying pistols, a dispatch from Laramie’s 
Northwest Stock Journal in 1884, reported, "We see many cowboys fitting up for 
the spring and summer work. They all seem to think it absolutely necessary to 
have a revolver. Of all foolish notions this is the most absurd."

Cowboy president Theodore Roosevelt recalled with approval that as a Dakota 
Territory ranch owner, his town, at the least, allowed "no shooting in the 
streets." The editor of that town's newspaper, The Bad Lands Cow Boy of Medora, 
demanded that gun control be even tighter than that, however. Like leade

Re: [AFMUG] WAY OT: Concealed Carry handguns - which to buy and why

It’s not gonna change – perhaps the serenity prayer could help?

From: Patrick Leary 
Sent: Monday, December 07, 2015 10:41 AM
To: af@afmug.com 
Subject: Re: [AFMUG] WAY OT: Concealed Carry handguns - which to buy and why

Yawn. The general population never made that boast until the NRA in the 1980s 
changed their tactics to spur slagging gun sales. They moved the conversation 
to patriotic themes, talk of freedom, and other pabulum gobbled up by folks. 
Contrary to popular “conservative” thinking, this is not settled law. In fact, 
even Scalia has been clear it’s quite open. Part of the issue is the meaning of 
“arms” and “keep” and “bear,” as well as the limits therein. But, even more 
important is how modern gun advocates neglect the entire first part of that 
amendment and pretend it does not exist at all, when rather, it is, in fact, 
the entire modifying context of the latter part of the sentence. 

I quote;

"A well regulated Militia, being necessary to the security of a free State, the 
right of the people to keep and bear Arms, shall not be infringed."

The NRA has done yeoman’s work pretending that part of the amendment does not 
exist. The “well regulated militia” is the subject, not guns. The rest of the 
sentence is the modifier. “People” in this case are represented by each state’s 
militia.

There is a significant opinion among many scholars that individual citizens 
have no right at all to a gun.

Secondly, no right is absolute. Government even grants itself the authority to 
regulate our inalienable rights (capital punishment, etc.). Amendments can also 
be altered, like the idiot 18th, in the face of changing realities. The reality 
of then was a muzzle-loaded, single fire musket. 

And, even if anyone wants to play elementary games and claim literalism, good 
luck with that, as that same text says nothing about ammunition, keeping and 
bearing LOADED arms.

Patrick 

From: Af [mailto:af-boun...@afmug.com] On Behalf Of Jeff Broadwick - Lists
Sent: Monday, December 7, 2015 12:10 PM
To: af@afmug.com
Subject: Re: [AFMUG] WAY OT: Concealed Carry handguns - which to buy and why

Since when is a discussion of our legal, Constitutional rights "pathetic" 
Patrick?  We are talking about a tool, like any other, that can be used to 
protect ourselves and others.  WISPs are often out in remote places in the dead 
of night...or at inner city data centers.  They are vulnerable.  I know that 
one person on this list would likely not be here right now if he hadn't been 
able to show a gun to someone that was about to bash him with a baseball bat 
outside a data center.

Jeff Broadwick

ConVergence Technologies, Inc.

312-205-2519 Office

574-220-7826 Cell

jbroadw...@converge-tech.com

On Dec 7, 2015, at 11:58 AM, Patrick Leary  wrote:

  I’ll just note this is a pathetic thread to have in any society that 
considers itself civil. Hell, even in the “wild west” the local law had people 
check their weapons into the sheriff when they came into town. In fact, 
formerly, states like Texas lead the country in banning open carry.

  “All the more surprising, then, that Texas was the first state to ban its 
citizens from carrying handguns, a restriction that remained on the books for 
125 years.” 
http://www.houstonchronicle.com/news/politics/texas/article/First-to-ban-open-carry-Texas-could-be-one-of-5974401.php

  And just read this scholarly article from 1999:

  Gun Control and the Old West
  By Ross Collins
  History News Service, Summer 1999.

  The smoke has cleared, and we peer down at the victim: another gun control 
bill, shot full ‘o holes. Just like in the old horse operas: a hero again 
shoots to protect a precious freedom, America’s right to bear arms. For many 
who keep a romantic image of America’s past, gun control is like that, a battle 
steeped in American tradition. It calls us back to those legendary days of the 
Old West, when cowboys defended their honor and their horses by way of their 
Colts
  .
  In fact, most historians see the cowboys of the Old West as THE defining 
heroes of 20th-century America. He’s used to sell everything from soap to hats. 
He’s apparently also an ideal American for anti-gun control groups: gun shows 
and gun advertising promote from a distinctive Old West flavor. 

  Today’s anti gun control forces count their strongest support among society’s 
leaders from the states that once formed part of the Old West.
  The actual Old West pioneers of historical fact viewed matters differently, 
however. They would certainly hail the campaign to protect an American right to 
bear arms, but the record puts them behind "moderate, common-sense measures" 
for gun control—the very kind that President Clinton has proposed.

  Pioneer publications show Old West leaders repeatedly arguing in favor of gun 
control. City leaders in the old cattle towns knew from experience what some 
Americans today

Re: [AFMUG] WAY OT: Concealed Carry handguns - which to buy and why

Was in Alaska... now I'm building a brand new fiber network with one of the
engineers of the original google fiber project, and the first FTTH
contractor in the nation.

On Mon, Dec 7, 2015 at 11:21 AM, Patrick Leary 
wrote:

> I post that even as a gun owner. I have a S&W M&P 40. It’s a great gun for
> me. But, I don’t CC, even though I could and I’m a veteran (so I put my
> money where my mouth is as a “patriot”). It goes with me if I’m on a boat
> offshore or maybe hiking somewhere remote. I’m not much of a fan of many of
> the ranges I’ve been too. Too many aholes and too little regard for safety
> in some places.
>
>
>
> I understand you are Alaska. I imagine I’d have a firearm near outside the
> city limits in most parts of the state.
>
>
>
> -  Patrick
>
>
>
> *From:* Af [mailto:af-boun...@afmug.com] *On Behalf Of *Josh Reynolds
> *Sent:* Monday, December 7, 2015 12:07 PM
> *To:* af@afmug.com
> *Subject:* Re: [AFMUG] WAY OT: Concealed Carry handguns - which to buy
> and why
>
>
>
> The best line, IMO:
>
> "Cattlemen should unite in aiding the enforcement of the law against
> carrying of deadly weapons."
>
>
>
> So basically, he's saying you shouldn't be allowed to carry. However, he
> wants *you* (average cattleman) to enforce this provision... without
> carrying. *eyetwitch*
>
>
>
> Anyway, I think this is an interesting blurb, but I'm going to have to go
> back and check the sources and the context. I've never heard anything like
> this before, so it's a bit surprising.
>
>
>
> On Mon, Dec 7, 2015 at 10:58 AM, Patrick Leary 
> wrote:
>
> I’ll just note this is a pathetic thread to have in any society that
> considers itself civil. Hell, even in the “wild west” the local law had
> people check their weapons into the sheriff when they came into town. In
> fact, formerly, states like Texas lead the country in banning open carry.
>
>
>
> “All the more surprising, then, that Texas was the first state to ban its
> citizens from carrying handguns, a restriction that remained on the books
> for 125 years.”
> http://www.houstonchronicle.com/news/politics/texas/article/First-to-ban-open-carry-Texas-could-be-one-of-5974401.php
>
>
>
> And just read this scholarly article from 1999:
>
>
>
> *Gun Control and the Old West*
> By Ross Collins
> History News Service <http://www2.h-net.msu.edu/~hns/index.html>, Summer
> 1999.
>
> The smoke has cleared, and we peer down at the victim: another gun control
> bill, shot full ‘o holes. Just like in the old horse operas: a hero again
> shoots to protect a precious freedom, America’s right to bear arms. For
> many who keep a romantic image of America’s past, gun control is like that,
> a battle steeped in American tradition. It calls us back to those legendary
> days of the Old West, when cowboys defended their honor and their horses by
> way of their Colts
> .
> In fact, most historians see the cowboys of the Old West as THE defining
> heroes of 20th-century America. He’s used to sell everything from soap to
> hats. He’s apparently also an ideal American for anti-gun control groups:
> gun shows and gun advertising promote from a distinctive Old West flavor.
>
> Today’s anti gun control forces count their strongest support among
> society’s leaders from the states that once formed part of the Old West.
> The actual Old West pioneers of historical fact viewed matters
> differently, however. They would certainly hail the campaign to protect an
> American right to bear arms, but the record puts them behind "moderate,
> common-sense measures" for gun control—the very kind that President Clinton
> has proposed.
>
> Pioneer publications show Old West leaders repeatedly arguing in favor of
> gun control. City leaders in the old cattle towns knew from experience what
> some Americans today don't want to believe: a town which allows easy access
> to guns invites trouble.
> What these cow town leaders saw intimately in their day-to-day association
> with guns is that more guns in more places caused not greater safety, but
> greater death in an already dangerous wilderness. By the 1880s many in the
> west were fed up with gun violence. Gun control, they contended, was
> absolutely essential, and the remedy advocated usually was usually no less
> than a total ban on pistol-packing.
> The editor of the Black Hills Daily Times of Dakota Territory in 1884,
> called the idea of carrying firearms into the city a “dangerous practice,”
> not only to others, but to the packer himself. He emphasized his point with
> the headline, "Perforated by His Own Pistol."
> The editor of the Montan

Re: [AFMUG] WAY OT: Concealed Carry handguns - which to buy and why

Yawn. The general population never made that boast until the NRA in the 1980s 
changed their tactics to spur slagging gun sales. They moved the conversation 
to patriotic themes, talk of freedom, and other pabulum gobbled up by folks. 
Contrary to popular “conservative” thinking, this is not settled law. In fact, 
even Scalia has been clear it’s quite open. Part of the issue is the meaning of 
“arms” and “keep” and “bear,” as well as the limits therein. But, even more 
important is how modern gun advocates neglect the entire first part of that 
amendment and pretend it does not exist at all, when rather, it is, in fact, 
the entire modifying context of the latter part of the sentence.

I quote;

"A well regulated Militia, being necessary to the security of a free State, the 
right of the people to keep and bear Arms, shall not be infringed."

The NRA has done yeoman’s work pretending that part of the amendment does not 
exist. The “well regulated militia” is the subject, not guns. The rest of the 
sentence is the modifier. “People” in this case are represented by each state’s 
militia.

There is a significant opinion among many scholars that individual citizens 
have no right at all to a gun.

Secondly, no right is absolute. Government even grants itself the authority to 
regulate our inalienable rights (capital punishment, etc.). Amendments can also 
be altered, like the idiot 18th, in the face of changing realities. The reality 
of then was a muzzle-loaded, single fire musket.

And, even if anyone wants to play elementary games and claim literalism, good 
luck with that, as that same text says nothing about ammunition, keeping and 
bearing LOADED arms.

Patrick

From: Af [mailto:af-boun...@afmug.com] On Behalf Of Jeff Broadwick - Lists
Sent: Monday, December 7, 2015 12:10 PM
To: af@afmug.com
Subject: Re: [AFMUG] WAY OT: Concealed Carry handguns - which to buy and why

Since when is a discussion of our legal, Constitutional rights "pathetic" 
Patrick?  We are talking about a tool, like any other, that can be used to 
protect ourselves and others.  WISPs are often out in remote places in the dead 
of night...or at inner city data centers.  They are vulnerable.  I know that 
one person on this list would likely not be here right now if he hadn't been 
able to show a gun to someone that was about to bash him with a baseball bat 
outside a data center.

Jeff Broadwick
ConVergence Technologies, Inc.
312-205-2519 Office
574-220-7826 Cell
jbroadw...@converge-tech.com<mailto:jbroadw...@converge-tech.com>

On Dec 7, 2015, at 11:58 AM, Patrick Leary 
mailto:patrick.le...@telrad.com>> wrote:
I’ll just note this is a pathetic thread to have in any society that considers 
itself civil. Hell, even in the “wild west” the local law had people check 
their weapons into the sheriff when they came into town. In fact, formerly, 
states like Texas lead the country in banning open carry.

“All the more surprising, then, that Texas was the first state to ban its 
citizens from carrying handguns, a restriction that remained on the books for 
125 years.” 
http://www.houstonchronicle.com/news/politics/texas/article/First-to-ban-open-carry-Texas-could-be-one-of-5974401.php

And just read this scholarly article from 1999:


Gun Control and the Old West
By Ross Collins
History News Service<http://www2.h-net.msu.edu/~hns/index.html>, Summer 1999.

The smoke has cleared, and we peer down at the victim: another gun control 
bill, shot full ‘o holes. Just like in the old horse operas: a hero again 
shoots to protect a precious freedom, America’s right to bear arms. For many 
who keep a romantic image of America’s past, gun control is like that, a battle 
steeped in American tradition. It calls us back to those legendary days of the 
Old West, when cowboys defended their honor and their horses by way of their 
Colts
.
In fact, most historians see the cowboys of the Old West as THE defining heroes 
of 20th-century America. He’s used to sell everything from soap to hats. He’s 
apparently also an ideal American for anti-gun control groups: gun shows and 
gun advertising promote from a distinctive Old West flavor.

Today’s anti gun control forces count their strongest support among society’s 
leaders from the states that once formed part of the Old West.
The actual Old West pioneers of historical fact viewed matters differently, 
however. They would certainly hail the campaign to protect an American right to 
bear arms, but the record puts them behind "moderate, common-sense measures" 
for gun control—the very kind that President Clinton has proposed.

Pioneer publications show Old West leaders repeatedly arguing in favor of gun 
control. City leaders in the old cattle towns knew from experience what some 
Americans today don't want to believe: a town which allows easy access to guns 
invites trouble.
What these cow town leaders saw intimately in their day-to-day association with

Re: [AFMUG] WAY OT: Concealed Carry handguns - which to buy and why

he should 
unfortunately be primed with whiskey. Cattlemen should unite in aiding 
the enforcement of the law against carrying of deadly weapons."


This echoes President Clinton’s reaction following the failure in 
Congress of the most recent gun control proposals: “The American 
people will not stand for this.” So far they have, however, as 
recalled by the record of defeated attempts to legislate control. As 
U.S. Rep. Martin Sabo (D.-Minn.) noted, “there’s broad public support 
for it, but he opponents are much more intense about it.”


The Old West’s leaders who argued for gun control knew that a long 
time ago. Their arguments sound as contemporary at the end of this 
century as they were earnest at the end of the last. But despite them, 
few packers have been persuaded to put away their pistols, then or now.


Copyright 2004 by Ross F. Collins 

Wayne LaPierre sure has done his job well. He’s made most of you 
fooled into thinking owning a gun is a patriotic act without you 
realizing you are just another tool for raking in the dough. He’s been 
so successful he’s converted gun ownership into a religious issue, to 
point that whether or not you own a gun is highly predictive of your 
being an evangelical Christian.


https://www.washingtonpost.com/local/is-gun-ownership-christian/2013/01/25/c7afe7fe-6724-11e2-93e1-475791032daf_story.html

Patrick

*From:*Af [mailto:af-boun...@afmug.com] *On Behalf Of *Cameron Crum
*Sent:* Monday, December 7, 2015 11:38 AM
*To:* af@afmug.com
*Subject:* Re: [AFMUG] WAY OT: Concealed Carry handguns - which to buy 
and why


I carry a Colt 45 Defender. It is relatively small for a 45. An NSA 
buddy of mine, who had been in several close range shootouts in his 
career asked me one time why I carry a 45. I told him that I'd never 
been in a firefight. I don't train in high pressure situations, and 
while I'm proficient at the range, I don't train for situations like 
he did or the cops do. If I am in a situation where I have to pull a 
gun, my adrenaline is going to be pumping like crazy, and I may be 
moving to cover or trying to stay out of the way of bullets myself. I 
may only hit what I'm shooting at once if I'm lucky. I want the once 
to count.


On Mon, Dec 7, 2015 at 10:30 AM, That One Guy /sarcasm 
mailto:thatoneguyst...@gmail.com>> wrote:


define legally

If a bear shits in the woods, will tight shoes cause callouses?

I dont know why any of you want these killing machines, the
government has guns, and we pay them to protect us. Your gun, if
you hand it to a bad guy, is 100% of the time going to be in the
bad guys possession, and if that bad guy happens to be 5, youve
just given a child a handgun, are you saying we should arm
children? Why are you trying to kill children, children are the
future, teach them well and let them lead the way.

Imperialist scum be furthering decline humanity. Mighty leader
will devour you in fear.




On Mon, Dec 7, 2015 at 10:17 AM, Chuck McCown mailto:ch...@wbmfg.com>> wrote:

Can you legally own hand grenades?

    *From:*Mathew Howard <mailto:mhoward...@gmail.com>

    *Sent:*Monday, December 07, 2015 9:15 AM

*To:*af <mailto:af@afmug.com>

*Subject:*Re: [AFMUG] WAY OT: Concealed Carry handguns - which
to buy and why

you do if you want to conceal it... :P

On Mon, Dec 7, 2015 at 10:14 AM, Chuck McCown mailto:ch...@wbmfg.com>> wrote:

You don’t need a CC to carry a Springfield 30-06

*From:*Paul McCall <mailto:pa...@pdmnet.net>

*Sent:*Monday, December 07, 2015 9:03 AM

*To:*af@afmug.com <mailto:af@afmug.com>

*Subject:*[AFMUG] WAY OT: Concealed Carry handguns - which
to buy and why

I am getting my CC permit (Florida) in a week or so.  I
took an absolutely excellent class from the main trainer
at the Brevard county sheriff’s office.

Now, I am looking for an excellent CC gun to use, as my
long barrel Colt 38 is not a good fit for that.

I am certain that this group probably has a LOT of
expertise (and many opinions) on THE gun to use.

J

Paul McCall, Pres.

PDMNet / Florida Broadband

658 Old Dixie Highway

Vero Beach, FL 32962

772-564-6800  office

772-473-0352  cell

www.pdmnet.com <http://www.pdmnet.com/>

pa...@pdmnet.net <mailto:pa...@pdmnet.net>



-- 


If you only see yourself as part of the team but you don't see
your team as part of yourself you have already failed as part of
the team.




***

Re: [AFMUG] WAY OT: Concealed Carry handguns - which to buy and why

2015-12-07 Thread Jeff Broadwick - Lists

t;Perforated by His Own Pistol."
>> The editor of the Montana’s Yellowstone Journal acknowledged four years
>> earlier that Americans have "the right to bear arms," but he contended that
>> guns have to be regulated. As for cowboys carrying pistols, a dispatch from
>> Laramie’s Northwest Stock Journal in 1884, reported, "We see many cowboys
>> fitting up for the spring and summer work. They all seem to think it
>> absolutely necessary to have a revolver. Of all foolish notions this is the
>> most absurd."
>> 
>> Cowboy president Theodore Roosevelt recalled with approval that as a Dakota
>> Territory ranch owner, his town, at the least, allowed "no shooting in the
>> streets." The editor of that town's newspaper, The Bad Lands Cow Boy of
>> Medora, demanded that gun control be even tighter than that, however. Like
>> leaders in Miles City and many other cow towns, he wanted to see guns banned
>> entirely within the city limits. A.T. Packard in August 1885 called "packing
>> a gun" a "senseless custom," and noted about a month later that "As a
>> protection, it is terribly useless.”
>> 
>> Old West cattlemen themselves also saw the need for gun control. By 1882, a
>> Texas cattle raising association had banned six-shooters from the cowboy's
>> belt. "In almost every section of the West murders are on the increase, and
>> cowmen are too often the principals in the encounters," concurred a dispatch
>> from the Texas Live Stock Journal dated June 5, 1884. "The six-shooter
>> loaded with deadly cartridges is a dangerous companion for any man,
>> especially if he should unfortunately be primed with whiskey. Cattlemen
>> should unite in aiding the enforcement of the law against carrying of deadly
>> weapons."
>> 
>> This echoes President Clinton’s reaction following the failure in Congress
>> of the most recent gun control proposals: “The American people will not
>> stand for this.” So far they have, however, as recalled by the record of
>> defeated attempts to legislate control. As U.S. Rep. Martin Sabo (D.-Minn.)
>> noted, “there’s broad public support for it, but he opponents are much more
>> intense about it.”
>> 
>> The Old West’s leaders who argued for gun control knew that a long time ago.
>> Their arguments sound as contemporary at the end of this century as they
>> were earnest at the end of the last. But despite them, few packers have been
>> persuaded to put away their pistols, then or now.
>> 
>> Copyright 2004 by Ross F. Collins 
>> 
>> Wayne LaPierre sure has done his job well. He’s made most of you fooled into
>> thinking owning a gun is a patriotic act without you realizing you are just
>> another tool for raking in the dough. He’s been so successful he’s converted
>> gun ownership into a religious issue, to point that whether or not you own a
>> gun is highly predictive of your being an evangelical Christian.
>> 
>> 
>> 
>> https://www.washingtonpost.com/local/is-gun-ownership-christian/2013/01/25/c7afe7fe-6724-11e2-93e1-475791032daf_story.html
>> 
>> 
>> 
>> Patrick
>> 
>> 
>> 
>> From: Af [mailto:af-boun...@afmug.com] On Behalf Of Cameron Crum
>> 
>> 
>> Sent: Monday, December 7, 2015 11:38 AM
>> To: af@afmug.com
>> Subject: Re: [AFMUG] WAY OT: Concealed Carry handguns - which to buy and why
>> 
>> 
>> 
>> I carry a Colt 45 Defender. It is relatively small for a 45. An NSA buddy of
>> mine, who had been in several close range shootouts in his career asked me
>> one time why I carry a 45. I told him that I'd never been in a firefight. I
>> don't train in high pressure situations, and while I'm proficient at the
>> range, I don't train for situations like he did or the cops do. If I am in a
>> situation where I have to pull a gun, my adrenaline is going to be pumping
>> like crazy, and I may be moving to cover or trying to stay out of the way of
>> bullets myself. I may only hit what I'm shooting at once if I'm lucky. I
>> want the once to count.
>> 
>> 
>> 
>> On Mon, Dec 7, 2015 at 10:30 AM, That One Guy /sarcasm
>>  wrote:
>> 
>> define legally
>> 
>> If a bear shits in the woods, will tight shoes cause callouses?
>> 
>> 
>> 
>> I dont know why any of you want these killing machines, the government has
>> guns, and we pay them to protect us. Your gun, if you hand it to a bad guy,
>> is 100% of the time going to be in the bad guys possession

Re: [AFMUG] WAY OT: Concealed Carry handguns - which to buy and why

Im not understanding the concept of being more safe with a firearm outside
of a city than inside of a city. The likelihood of an incident where a self
defense firearm would be necessary inside of a city is much greater than
outside of a city, urban areas in particular where criminality is more
prevalent.
Insulting potential customers by calling them pathetic, though normally
stupid, indicates a true belief in having a superior product, Ill give you
that. As insulted as I am, its a check in the plus column on the price
justification.

The US is a downright dangerous place, urban areas in particular, there is
zero value for human life. Our criminals, part in parcel thanks to silly
excessive laws, are more inclined to shoot you if they rob you than not,
solely because the potential prison sentence is pretty much the same any
more, better to leave no witness. If Our service covered urban areas, you
can rest assured I would have a CC permit, no matter how pathetic that may
be. Always better to be pathetic and alive, than alpha dog cool cat and
dead. My kids, though Im a prick enjoy both my presence and my income, I
would prefer they maintain both, no matter how pathetic you may feel that
is.

On Mon, Dec 7, 2015 at 11:21 AM, Patrick Leary 
wrote:

> I post that even as a gun owner. I have a S&W M&P 40. It’s a great gun for
> me. But, I don’t CC, even though I could and I’m a veteran (so I put my
> money where my mouth is as a “patriot”). It goes with me if I’m on a boat
> offshore or maybe hiking somewhere remote. I’m not much of a fan of many of
> the ranges I’ve been too. Too many aholes and too little regard for safety
> in some places.
>
>
>
> I understand you are Alaska. I imagine I’d have a firearm near outside the
> city limits in most parts of the state.
>
>
>
> -  Patrick
>
>
>
> *From:* Af [mailto:af-boun...@afmug.com] *On Behalf Of *Josh Reynolds
> *Sent:* Monday, December 7, 2015 12:07 PM
> *To:* af@afmug.com
> *Subject:* Re: [AFMUG] WAY OT: Concealed Carry handguns - which to buy
> and why
>
>
>
> The best line, IMO:
>
> "Cattlemen should unite in aiding the enforcement of the law against
> carrying of deadly weapons."
>
>
>
> So basically, he's saying you shouldn't be allowed to carry. However, he
> wants *you* (average cattleman) to enforce this provision... without
> carrying. *eyetwitch*
>
>
>
> Anyway, I think this is an interesting blurb, but I'm going to have to go
> back and check the sources and the context. I've never heard anything like
> this before, so it's a bit surprising.
>
>
>
> On Mon, Dec 7, 2015 at 10:58 AM, Patrick Leary 
> wrote:
>
> I’ll just note this is a pathetic thread to have in any society that
> considers itself civil. Hell, even in the “wild west” the local law had
> people check their weapons into the sheriff when they came into town. In
> fact, formerly, states like Texas lead the country in banning open carry.
>
>
>
> “All the more surprising, then, that Texas was the first state to ban its
> citizens from carrying handguns, a restriction that remained on the books
> for 125 years.”
> http://www.houstonchronicle.com/news/politics/texas/article/First-to-ban-open-carry-Texas-could-be-one-of-5974401.php
>
>
>
> And just read this scholarly article from 1999:
>
>
>
> *Gun Control and the Old West*
> By Ross Collins
> History News Service <http://www2.h-net.msu.edu/~hns/index.html>, Summer
> 1999.
>
> The smoke has cleared, and we peer down at the victim: another gun control
> bill, shot full ‘o holes. Just like in the old horse operas: a hero again
> shoots to protect a precious freedom, America’s right to bear arms. For
> many who keep a romantic image of America’s past, gun control is like that,
> a battle steeped in American tradition. It calls us back to those legendary
> days of the Old West, when cowboys defended their honor and their horses by
> way of their Colts
> .
> In fact, most historians see the cowboys of the Old West as THE defining
> heroes of 20th-century America. He’s used to sell everything from soap to
> hats. He’s apparently also an ideal American for anti-gun control groups:
> gun shows and gun advertising promote from a distinctive Old West flavor.
>
> Today’s anti gun control forces count their strongest support among
> society’s leaders from the states that once formed part of the Old West.
> The actual Old West pioneers of historical fact viewed matters
> differently, however. They would certainly hail the campaign to protect an
> American right to bear arms, but the record puts them behind "moderate,
> common-sense measures" for gun control—the very kind that President Clinton
> has proposed.
>
> Pi

Re: [AFMUG] WAY OT: Concealed Carry handguns - which to buy and why

2015-12-07 Thread Brett A Mansfield

y president Theodore Roosevelt recalled with approval that as a Dakota 
>> Territory ranch owner, his town, at the least, allowed "no shooting in the 
>> streets." The editor of that town's newspaper, The Bad Lands Cow Boy of 
>> Medora, demanded that gun control be even tighter than that, however. Like 
>> leaders in Miles City and many other cow towns, he wanted to see guns banned 
>> entirely within the city limits. A.T. Packard in August 1885 called "packing 
>> a gun" a "senseless custom," and noted about a month later that "As a 
>> protection, it is terribly useless.”
>> 
>> Old West cattlemen themselves also saw the need for gun control. By 1882, a 
>> Texas cattle raising association had banned six-shooters from the cowboy's 
>> belt. "In almost every section of the West murders are on the increase, and 
>> cowmen are too often the principals in the encounters," concurred a dispatch 
>> from the Texas Live Stock Journal dated June 5, 1884. "The six-shooter 
>> loaded with deadly cartridges is a dangerous companion for any man, 
>> especially if he should unfortunately be primed with whiskey. Cattlemen 
>> should unite in aiding the enforcement of the law against carrying of deadly 
>> weapons." 
>> 
>> This echoes President Clinton’s reaction following the failure in Congress 
>> of the most recent gun control proposals: “The American people will not 
>> stand for this.” So far they have, however, as recalled by the record of 
>> defeated attempts to legislate control. As U.S. Rep. Martin Sabo (D.-Minn.) 
>> noted, “there’s broad public support for it, but he opponents are much more 
>> intense about it.”
>> 
>> The Old West’s leaders who argued for gun control knew that a long time ago. 
>> Their arguments sound as contemporary at the end of this century as they 
>> were earnest at the end of the last. But despite them, few packers have been 
>> persuaded to put away their pistols, then or now.
>> 
>> Copyright 2004 by Ross F. Collins 
>> 
>> Wayne LaPierre sure has done his job well. He’s made most of you fooled into 
>> thinking owning a gun is a patriotic act without you realizing you are just 
>> another tool for raking in the dough. He’s been so successful he’s converted 
>> gun ownership into a religious issue, to point that whether or not you own a 
>> gun is highly predictive of your being an evangelical Christian.
>>  
>> https://www.washingtonpost.com/local/is-gun-ownership-christian/2013/01/25/c7afe7fe-6724-11e2-93e1-475791032daf_story.html
>>  
>> Patrick
>>  
>> From: Af [mailto:af-boun...@afmug.com] On Behalf Of Cameron Crum
>> Sent: Monday, December 7, 2015 11:38 AM
>> To: af@afmug.com
>> Subject: Re: [AFMUG] WAY OT: Concealed Carry handguns - which to buy and why
>>  
>> I carry a Colt 45 Defender. It is relatively small for a 45. An NSA buddy of 
>> mine, who had been in several close range shootouts in his career asked me 
>> one time why I carry a 45. I told him that I'd never been in a firefight. I 
>> don't train in high pressure situations, and while I'm proficient at the 
>> range, I don't train for situations like he did or the cops do. If I am in a 
>> situation where I have to pull a gun, my adrenaline is going to be pumping 
>> like crazy, and I may be moving to cover or trying to stay out of the way of 
>> bullets myself. I may only hit what I'm shooting at once if I'm lucky. I 
>> want the once to count. 
>>  
>> On Mon, Dec 7, 2015 at 10:30 AM, That One Guy /sarcasm 
>>  wrote:
>> define legally
>> If a bear shits in the woods, will tight shoes cause callouses?
>>  
>> I dont know why any of you want these killing machines, the government has 
>> guns, and we pay them to protect us. Your gun, if you hand it to a bad guy, 
>> is 100% of the time going to be in the bad guys possession, and if that bad 
>> guy happens to be 5, youve just given a child a handgun, are you saying we 
>> should arm children? Why are you trying to kill children, children are the 
>> future, teach them well and let them lead the way. 
>>  
>>  
>> Imperialist scum be furthering decline humanity. Mighty leader will devour 
>> you in fear. 
>>  
>> 
>> 
>>  
>> On Mon, Dec 7, 2015 at 10:17 AM, Chuck McCown  wrote:
>> Can you legally own hand grenades?
>>  
>> From: Mathew Howard
>> Sent: Monday, December 07, 2015 9:15 AM
>> To: af
>> Subject: Re: [AFMUG] WAY OT: Concealed Carry handguns - which to buy and why
&g

Re: [AFMUG] WAY OT: Concealed Carry handguns - which to buy and why

a
> Territory ranch owner, his town, at the least, allowed "no shooting in the
> streets." The editor of that town's newspaper, The Bad Lands Cow Boy of
> Medora, demanded that gun control be even tighter than that, however. Like
> leaders in Miles City and many other cow towns, he wanted to see guns banned
> entirely within the city limits. A.T. Packard in August 1885 called "packing
> a gun" a "senseless custom," and noted about a month later that "As a
> protection, it is terribly useless.”
>
> Old West cattlemen themselves also saw the need for gun control. By 1882, a
> Texas cattle raising association had banned six-shooters from the cowboy's
> belt. "In almost every section of the West murders are on the increase, and
> cowmen are too often the principals in the encounters," concurred a dispatch
> from the Texas Live Stock Journal dated June 5, 1884. "The six-shooter
> loaded with deadly cartridges is a dangerous companion for any man,
> especially if he should unfortunately be primed with whiskey. Cattlemen
> should unite in aiding the enforcement of the law against carrying of deadly
> weapons."
>
> This echoes President Clinton’s reaction following the failure in Congress
> of the most recent gun control proposals: “The American people will not
> stand for this.” So far they have, however, as recalled by the record of
> defeated attempts to legislate control. As U.S. Rep. Martin Sabo (D.-Minn.)
> noted, “there’s broad public support for it, but he opponents are much more
> intense about it.”
>
> The Old West’s leaders who argued for gun control knew that a long time ago.
> Their arguments sound as contemporary at the end of this century as they
> were earnest at the end of the last. But despite them, few packers have been
> persuaded to put away their pistols, then or now.
>
> Copyright 2004 by Ross F. Collins 
>
> Wayne LaPierre sure has done his job well. He’s made most of you fooled into
> thinking owning a gun is a patriotic act without you realizing you are just
> another tool for raking in the dough. He’s been so successful he’s converted
> gun ownership into a religious issue, to point that whether or not you own a
> gun is highly predictive of your being an evangelical Christian.
>
>
>
> https://www.washingtonpost.com/local/is-gun-ownership-christian/2013/01/25/c7afe7fe-6724-11e2-93e1-475791032daf_story.html
>
>
>
> Patrick
>
>
>
> From: Af [mailto:af-boun...@afmug.com] On Behalf Of Cameron Crum
>
>
> Sent: Monday, December 7, 2015 11:38 AM
> To: af@afmug.com
> Subject: Re: [AFMUG] WAY OT: Concealed Carry handguns - which to buy and why
>
>
>
> I carry a Colt 45 Defender. It is relatively small for a 45. An NSA buddy of
> mine, who had been in several close range shootouts in his career asked me
> one time why I carry a 45. I told him that I'd never been in a firefight. I
> don't train in high pressure situations, and while I'm proficient at the
> range, I don't train for situations like he did or the cops do. If I am in a
> situation where I have to pull a gun, my adrenaline is going to be pumping
> like crazy, and I may be moving to cover or trying to stay out of the way of
> bullets myself. I may only hit what I'm shooting at once if I'm lucky. I
> want the once to count.
>
>
>
> On Mon, Dec 7, 2015 at 10:30 AM, That One Guy /sarcasm
>  wrote:
>
> define legally
>
> If a bear shits in the woods, will tight shoes cause callouses?
>
>
>
> I dont know why any of you want these killing machines, the government has
> guns, and we pay them to protect us. Your gun, if you hand it to a bad guy,
> is 100% of the time going to be in the bad guys possession, and if that bad
> guy happens to be 5, youve just given a child a handgun, are you saying we
> should arm children? Why are you trying to kill children, children are the
> future, teach them well and let them lead the way.
>
>
>
>
>
> Imperialist scum be furthering decline humanity. Mighty leader will devour
> you in fear.
>
>
>
> 
>
>
>
> On Mon, Dec 7, 2015 at 10:17 AM, Chuck McCown  wrote:
>
> Can you legally own hand grenades?
>
>
>
> From: Mathew Howard
>
> Sent: Monday, December 07, 2015 9:15 AM
>
> To: af
>
> Subject: Re: [AFMUG] WAY OT: Concealed Carry handguns - which to buy and why
>
>
>
> you do if you want to conceal it... :P
>
>
>
> On Mon, Dec 7, 2015 at 10:14 AM, Chuck McCown  wrote:
>
> You don’t need a CC to carry a Springfield 30-06
>
>
>
> From: Paul McCall
>
> Sent: Monday, December 07, 2015 9:03 AM
>
> To: af@afmug.com
>
> Subject: [AFMUG] WA

Re: [AFMUG] WAY OT: Concealed Carry handguns - which to buy and why

Haven't looked. The three or four entries I can see to find with these
quotes are done by newspaper writers of the time.

On Mon, Dec 7, 2015 at 11:08 AM, Chuck McCown  wrote:

> Does Snopes have an entry about this?
>
> *From:* Josh Reynolds 
> *Sent:* Monday, December 07, 2015 10:07 AM
> *To:* af@afmug.com
> *Subject:* Re: [AFMUG] WAY OT: Concealed Carry handguns - which to buy
> and why
>
> The best line, IMO:
> "Cattlemen should unite in aiding the enforcement of the law against
> carrying of deadly weapons."
>
> So basically, he's saying you shouldn't be allowed to carry. However, he
> wants *you* (average cattleman) to enforce this provision... without
> carrying. *eyetwitch*
>
> Anyway, I think this is an interesting blurb, but I'm going to have to go
> back and check the sources and the context. I've never heard anything like
> this before, so it's a bit surprising.
>
> On Mon, Dec 7, 2015 at 10:58 AM, Patrick Leary 
> wrote:
>
>> I’ll just note this is a pathetic thread to have in any society that
>> considers itself civil. Hell, even in the “wild west” the local law had
>> people check their weapons into the sheriff when they came into town. In
>> fact, formerly, states like Texas lead the country in banning open carry.
>>
>>
>>
>> “All the more surprising, then, that Texas was the first state to ban
>> its citizens from carrying handguns, a restriction that remained on the
>> books for 125 years.”
>> http://www.houstonchronicle.com/news/politics/texas/article/First-to-ban-open-carry-Texas-could-be-one-of-5974401.php
>>
>>
>>
>> And just read this scholarly article from 1999:
>>
>>
>>
>> *Gun Control and the Old West*
>> By Ross Collins
>> History News Service <http://www2.h-net.msu.edu/~hns/index.html>, Summer
>> 1999.
>>
>> The smoke has cleared, and we peer down at the victim: another gun
>> control bill, shot full ‘o holes. Just like in the old horse operas: a hero
>> again shoots to protect a precious freedom, America’s right to bear arms.
>> For many who keep a romantic image of America’s past, gun control is like
>> that, a battle steeped in American tradition. It calls us back to those
>> legendary days of the Old West, when cowboys defended their honor and their
>> horses by way of their Colts
>> .
>> In fact, most historians see the cowboys of the Old West as THE defining
>> heroes of 20th-century America. He’s used to sell everything from soap to
>> hats. He’s apparently also an ideal American for anti-gun control groups:
>> gun shows and gun advertising promote from a distinctive Old West flavor.
>>
>> Today’s anti gun control forces count their strongest support among
>> society’s leaders from the states that once formed part of the Old West.
>> The actual Old West pioneers of historical fact viewed matters
>> differently, however. They would certainly hail the campaign to protect an
>> American right to bear arms, but the record puts them behind "moderate,
>> common-sense measures" for gun control—the very kind that President Clinton
>> has proposed.
>>
>> Pioneer publications show Old West leaders repeatedly arguing in favor of
>> gun control. City leaders in the old cattle towns knew from experience what
>> some Americans today don't want to believe: a town which allows easy access
>> to guns invites trouble.
>> What these cow town leaders saw intimately in their day-to-day
>> association with guns is that more guns in more places caused not greater
>> safety, but greater death in an already dangerous wilderness. By the 1880s
>> many in the west were fed up with gun violence. Gun control, they
>> contended, was absolutely essential, and the remedy advocated usually was
>> usually no less than a total ban on pistol-packing.
>> The editor of the Black Hills Daily Times of Dakota Territory in 1884,
>> called the idea of carrying firearms into the city a “dangerous practice,”
>> not only to others, but to the packer himself. He emphasized his point with
>> the headline, "Perforated by His Own Pistol."
>> The editor of the Montana’s Yellowstone Journal acknowledged four years
>> earlier that Americans have "the right to bear arms," but he contended that
>> guns have to be regulated. As for cowboys carrying pistols, a dispatch from
>> Laramie’s Northwest Stock Journal in 1884, reported, "We see many cowboys
>> fitting up for the spring and summer work. They all seem to think it
>> absolutely necessary to have a revolver. Of all foolish notions this is the

Re: [AFMUG] WAY OT: Concealed Carry handguns - which to buy and why

Does Snopes have an entry about this?

From: Josh Reynolds 
Sent: Monday, December 07, 2015 10:07 AM
To: af@afmug.com 
Subject: Re: [AFMUG] WAY OT: Concealed Carry handguns - which to buy and why

The best line, IMO:
"Cattlemen should unite in aiding the enforcement of the law against carrying 
of deadly weapons."

So basically, he's saying you shouldn't be allowed to carry. However, he wants 
*you* (average cattleman) to enforce this provision... without carrying. 
*eyetwitch*

Anyway, I think this is an interesting blurb, but I'm going to have to go back 
and check the sources and the context. I've never heard anything like this 
before, so it's a bit surprising.

On Mon, Dec 7, 2015 at 10:58 AM, Patrick Leary  wrote:

  I’ll just note this is a pathetic thread to have in any society that 
considers itself civil. Hell, even in the “wild west” the local law had people 
check their weapons into the sheriff when they came into town. In fact, 
formerly, states like Texas lead the country in banning open carry.

  “All the more surprising, then, that Texas was the first state to ban its 
citizens from carrying handguns, a restriction that remained on the books for 
125 years.” 
http://www.houstonchronicle.com/news/politics/texas/article/First-to-ban-open-carry-Texas-could-be-one-of-5974401.php

  And just read this scholarly article from 1999:

  Gun Control and the Old West
  By Ross Collins
  History News Service, Summer 1999.

  The smoke has cleared, and we peer down at the victim: another gun control 
bill, shot full ‘o holes. Just like in the old horse operas: a hero again 
shoots to protect a precious freedom, America’s right to bear arms. For many 
who keep a romantic image of America’s past, gun control is like that, a battle 
steeped in American tradition. It calls us back to those legendary days of the 
Old West, when cowboys defended their honor and their horses by way of their 
Colts
  .
  In fact, most historians see the cowboys of the Old West as THE defining 
heroes of 20th-century America. He’s used to sell everything from soap to hats. 
He’s apparently also an ideal American for anti-gun control groups: gun shows 
and gun advertising promote from a distinctive Old West flavor. 

  Today’s anti gun control forces count their strongest support among society’s 
leaders from the states that once formed part of the Old West.
  The actual Old West pioneers of historical fact viewed matters differently, 
however. They would certainly hail the campaign to protect an American right to 
bear arms, but the record puts them behind "moderate, common-sense measures" 
for gun control—the very kind that President Clinton has proposed.

  Pioneer publications show Old West leaders repeatedly arguing in favor of gun 
control. City leaders in the old cattle towns knew from experience what some 
Americans today don't want to believe: a town which allows easy access to guns 
invites trouble.
  What these cow town leaders saw intimately in their day-to-day association 
with guns is that more guns in more places caused not greater safety, but 
greater death in an already dangerous wilderness. By the 1880s many in the west 
were fed up with gun violence. Gun control, they contended, was absolutely 
essential, and the remedy advocated usually was usually no less than a total 
ban on pistol-packing.
  The editor of the Black Hills Daily Times of Dakota Territory in 1884, called 
the idea of carrying firearms into the city a “dangerous practice,” not only to 
others, but to the packer himself. He emphasized his point with the headline, 
"Perforated by His Own Pistol."
  The editor of the Montana’s Yellowstone Journal acknowledged four years 
earlier that Americans have "the right to bear arms," but he contended that 
guns have to be regulated. As for cowboys carrying pistols, a dispatch from 
Laramie’s Northwest Stock Journal in 1884, reported, "We see many cowboys 
fitting up for the spring and summer work. They all seem to think it absolutely 
necessary to have a revolver. Of all foolish notions this is the most absurd."

  Cowboy president Theodore Roosevelt recalled with approval that as a Dakota 
Territory ranch owner, his town, at the least, allowed "no shooting in the 
streets." The editor of that town's newspaper, The Bad Lands Cow Boy of Medora, 
demanded that gun control be even tighter than that, however. Like leaders in 
Miles City and many other cow towns, he wanted to see guns banned entirely 
within the city limits. A.T. Packard in August 1885 called "packing a gun" a 
"senseless custom," and noted about a month later that "As a protection, it is 
terribly useless.”

  Old West cattlemen themselves also saw the need for gun control. By 1882, a 
Texas cattle raising association had banned six-shooters from the cowboy's 
belt. "In almost every section of the West m

Re: [AFMUG] WAY OT: Concealed Carry handguns - which to buy and why

2015-12-07 Thread Jeff Broadwick - Lists

 
> Old West cattlemen themselves also saw the need for gun control. By 1882, a 
> Texas cattle raising association had banned six-shooters from the cowboy's 
> belt. "In almost every section of the West murders are on the increase, and 
> cowmen are too often the principals in the encounters," concurred a dispatch 
> from the Texas Live Stock Journal dated June 5, 1884. "The six-shooter loaded 
> with deadly cartridges is a dangerous companion for any man, especially if he 
> should unfortunately be primed with whiskey. Cattlemen should  unite in 
> aiding the enforcement of the law against carrying of deadly weapons." 
> 
> This echoes President Clinton’s reaction following the failure in Congress of 
> the most recent gun control proposals: “The American people will not stand 
> for this.” So far they have, however, as recalled by the record of defeated 
> attempts to legislate control. As U.S. Rep. Martin Sabo (D.-Minn.) noted, 
> “there’s broad public support for it, but he opponents are much more intense 
> about it.”
> 
> The Old West’s leaders who argued for gun control knew that a long time ago. 
> Their arguments sound as contemporary at the end of this century as they were 
> earnest at the end of the last. But despite them, few packers have been 
> persuaded to put away their pistols, then or now.
> 
> Copyright 2004 by Ross F. Collins 
> 
> Wayne LaPierre sure has done his job well. He’s made most of you fooled into 
> thinking owning a gun is a patriotic act without you realizing you are just 
> another tool for raking in the dough. He’s been so successful he’s converted 
> gun ownership into a religious issue, to point that whether or not you own a 
> gun is highly predictive of your being an evangelical Christian.
>  
> https://www.washingtonpost.com/local/is-gun-ownership-christian/2013/01/25/c7afe7fe-6724-11e2-93e1-475791032daf_story.html
>  
> Patrick
>  
> From: Af [mailto:af-boun...@afmug.com] On Behalf Of Cameron Crum
> Sent: Monday, December 7, 2015 11:38 AM
> To: af@afmug.com
> Subject: Re: [AFMUG] WAY OT: Concealed Carry handguns - which to buy and why
>  
> I carry a Colt 45 Defender. It is relatively small for a 45. An NSA buddy of 
> mine, who had been in several close range shootouts in his career asked me 
> one time why I carry a 45. I told him that I'd never been in a firefight. I 
> don't train in high pressure situations, and while I'm proficient at the 
> range, I don't train for situations like he did or the cops do. If I am in a 
> situation where I have to pull a gun, my adrenaline is going to be pumping 
> like crazy, and I may be moving to cover or trying to stay out of the way of 
> bullets myself. I may only hit what I'm shooting at once if I'm lucky. I want 
> the once to count. 
>  
> On Mon, Dec 7, 2015 at 10:30 AM, That One Guy /sarcasm 
>  wrote:
> define legally
> If a bear shits in the woods, will tight shoes cause callouses?
>  
> I dont know why any of you want these killing machines, the government has 
> guns, and we pay them to protect us. Your gun, if you hand it to a bad guy, 
> is 100% of the time going to be in the bad guys possession, and if that bad 
> guy happens to be 5, youve just given a child a handgun, are you saying we 
> should arm children? Why are you trying to kill children, children are the 
> future, teach them well and let them lead the way. 
>  
>  
> Imperialist scum be furthering decline humanity. Mighty leader will devour 
> you in fear. 
>  
> 
> 
>  
> On Mon, Dec 7, 2015 at 10:17 AM, Chuck McCown  wrote:
> Can you legally own hand grenades?
>  
> From: Mathew Howard
> Sent: Monday, December 07, 2015 9:15 AM
> To: af
> Subject: Re: [AFMUG] WAY OT: Concealed Carry handguns - which to buy and why
>  
> you do if you want to conceal it... :P
>  
> On Mon, Dec 7, 2015 at 10:14 AM, Chuck McCown  wrote:
> You don’t need a CC to carry a Springfield 30-06
>  
> From: Paul McCall
> Sent: Monday, December 07, 2015 9:03 AM
> To: af@afmug.com
> Subject: [AFMUG] WAY OT: Concealed Carry handguns - which to buy and why
>  
> I am getting my CC permit (Florida) in a week or so.  I took an absolutely 
> excellent class from the main trainer at the Brevard county sheriff’s office. 
>  
> Now, I am looking for an excellent CC gun to use, as my long barrel Colt 38 
> is not a good fit for that. 
>  
> I am certain that this group probably has a LOT of expertise (and many 
> opinions) on THE gun to use.
>  
> J  
>  
> Paul McCall, Pres.
> PDMNet / Florida Broadband
> 658 Old Dixie Highway
> Vero Beach, FL 32962
> 772-564-6800 office
> 772-473-0352 cell
> www.pdmnet.com
> pa...@pdmnet.

Re: [AFMUG] WAY OT: Concealed Carry handguns - which to buy and why

XDS has replaceable grip backstraps.

On Mon, Dec 7, 2015 at 11:04 AM, James Howard  wrote:

> Sig P938 is 9mm and almost exactly the same size as a P238.  I’ve got the
> SAS model (anti snag).  I’ve also got a S&W M&P Shield in 9mm and have
> looked at the Springfield XDS many times.  I just can’t get over the fact
> that I don’t like the grips on the XDS.  Prime reason to go with the XDS is
> that you can get it in 45ACP.  There are a lot of cheaper brands out there
> too.
>
>
>
> If you have a place where you can do it, go and test fire all the
> different options.  My father-in-law bought a Glock 36 because several
> people told him how great they were.  The problem is that it doesn’t fit
> his hand well at all and the trigger digs into his finger so he shoots
> terrible with it.  His accuracy is greatly improved using my M&P Shield.
>
>
>
> No matter what you get though.  A major key to carrying it safely is
> practice and being comfortable with it.
>
>
>
> *From:* Af [mailto:af-boun...@afmug.com] *On Behalf Of *Simon Westlake
> *Sent:* Monday, December 07, 2015 10:09 AM
> *To:* af@afmug.com
> *Subject:* Re: [AFMUG] WAY OT: Concealed Carry handguns - which to buy
> and why
>
>
>
> That was one thing I forgot to mention with the P238.. it has a manual
> safety as well, if that's important to you. I personally don't really care,
> but it's another good point.
>
> On 12/7/2015 10:07 AM, Jeremy wrote:
>
> A lot of people are carrying a gun that has no safety.  The safety is
> released by squeezing the trigger, essentially.  I have kids, and although
> I plan to keep my gun far away from them, I cannot on a clear conscience
> carry a gun with no safety.  I have been considering a revolver.  My bro
> has a CC and he recommends something smaller, so it doesn't jab you in the
> side whenever you sit down.  I am still looking for the right gun for a
> CC.  I've already had a gun pulled on my at a job.
>
>
>
> On Mon, Dec 7, 2015 at 9:03 AM, Paul McCall  wrote:
>
> I am getting my CC permit (Florida) in a week or so.  I took an absolutely
> excellent class from the main trainer at the Brevard county sheriff’s
> office.
>
>
>
> Now, I am looking for an excellent CC gun to use, as my long barrel Colt
> 38 is not a good fit for that.
>
>
>
> I am certain that this group probably has a LOT of expertise (and many
> opinions) on THE gun to use.
>
>
>
> J
>
>
>
> Paul McCall, Pres.
>
> PDMNet / Florida Broadband
>
> 658 Old Dixie Highway
>
> Vero Beach, FL 32962
>
> 772-564-6800 office
>
> 772-473-0352 cell
>
> www.pdmnet.com
>
> pa...@pdmnet.net
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
> --
>
> Simon Westlake
>
> Skype: Simon_Sonar
>
> Email: simon@sonar.software
>
> Phone: (702) 447-1247
>
> ---
>
> Sonar Software Inc
>
> The next generation of ISP billing and OSS
>
> https://sonar.software
>
> --
>
> *Total Control Panel*
>
> Login <https://asp.reflexion.net/login?domain=litewire.net>
>
> To: ja...@litewire.net
> <https://asp.reflexion.net/address-properties?aID=242260993&domain=litewire.net>
>
> From:
> 01517d3415cf-66b7e94a-eb36-4342-aec8-b7c2a7704706-000...@amazonses.com
>
> Remove
> <https://asp.reflexion.net/FooterAction?ver=3&un-wl-sender-domain=1&hID=13241532244&domain=litewire.net>
> amazonses.com from my allow list
>
> *You received this message because the domain amazonses.com
> <http://amazonses.com> is on your allow list.*
>
>
>

Re: [AFMUG] WAY OT: Concealed Carry handguns - which to buy and why

By 1882,
> a Texas cattle raising association had banned six-shooters from the
> cowboy's belt. "In almost every section of the West murders are on the
> increase, and cowmen are too often the principals in the encounters,"
> concurred a dispatch from the Texas Live Stock Journal dated June 5, 1884.
> "The six-shooter loaded with deadly cartridges is a dangerous companion for
> any man, especially if he should unfortunately be primed with whiskey.
> Cattlemen should unite in aiding the enforcement of the law against
> carrying of deadly weapons."
>
> This echoes President Clinton’s reaction following the failure in Congress
> of the most recent gun control proposals: “The American people will not
> stand for this.” So far they have, however, as recalled by the record of
> defeated attempts to legislate control. As U.S. Rep. Martin Sabo (D.-Minn.)
> noted, “there’s broad public support for it, but he opponents are much more
> intense about it.”
>
> The Old West’s leaders who argued for gun control knew that a long time
> ago. Their arguments sound as contemporary at the end of this century as
> they were earnest at the end of the last. But despite them, few packers
> have been persuaded to put away their pistols, then or now.
>
> Copyright 2004 by Ross F. Collins 
>
> Wayne LaPierre sure has done his job well. He’s made most of you fooled
> into thinking owning a gun is a patriotic act without you realizing you are
> just another tool for raking in the dough. He’s been so successful he’s
> converted gun ownership into a religious issue, to point that whether or
> not you own a gun is highly predictive of your being an evangelical
> Christian.
>
>
>
>
> https://www.washingtonpost.com/local/is-gun-ownership-christian/2013/01/25/c7afe7fe-6724-11e2-93e1-475791032daf_story.html
>
>
>
> Patrick
>
>
>
> *From:* Af [mailto:af-boun...@afmug.com] *On Behalf Of *Cameron Crum
> *Sent:* Monday, December 7, 2015 11:38 AM
> *To:* af@afmug.com
> *Subject:* Re: [AFMUG] WAY OT: Concealed Carry handguns - which to buy
> and why
>
>
>
> I carry a Colt 45 Defender. It is relatively small for a 45. An NSA buddy
> of mine, who had been in several close range shootouts in his career asked
> me one time why I carry a 45. I told him that I'd never been in a
> firefight. I don't train in high pressure situations, and while I'm
> proficient at the range, I don't train for situations like he did or the
> cops do. If I am in a situation where I have to pull a gun, my adrenaline
> is going to be pumping like crazy, and I may be moving to cover or trying
> to stay out of the way of bullets myself. I may only hit what I'm shooting
> at once if I'm lucky. I want the once to count.
>
>
>
> On Mon, Dec 7, 2015 at 10:30 AM, That One Guy /sarcasm <
> thatoneguyst...@gmail.com> wrote:
>
> define legally
>
> If a bear shits in the woods, will tight shoes cause callouses?
>
>
>
> I dont know why any of you want these killing machines, the government has
> guns, and we pay them to protect us. Your gun, if you hand it to a bad guy,
> is 100% of the time going to be in the bad guys possession, and if that bad
> guy happens to be 5, youve just given a child a handgun, are you saying we
> should arm children? Why are you trying to kill children, children are the
> future, teach them well and let them lead the way.
>
>
>
>
>
> Imperialist scum be furthering decline humanity. Mighty leader will devour
> you in fear.
>
>
>
>
> 
>
>
>
> On Mon, Dec 7, 2015 at 10:17 AM, Chuck McCown  wrote:
>
> Can you legally own hand grenades?
>
>
>
> *From:* Mathew Howard 
>
> *Sent:* Monday, December 07, 2015 9:15 AM
>
> *To:* af 
>
> *Subject:* Re: [AFMUG] WAY OT: Concealed Carry handguns - which to buy
> and why
>
>
>
> you do if you want to conceal it... :P
>
>
>
> On Mon, Dec 7, 2015 at 10:14 AM, Chuck McCown  wrote:
>
> You don’t need a CC to carry a Springfield 30-06
>
>
>
> *From:* Paul McCall 
>
> *Sent:* Monday, December 07, 2015 9:03 AM
>
> *To:* af@afmug.com
>
> *Subject:* [AFMUG] WAY OT: Concealed Carry handguns - which to buy and why
>
>
>
> I am getting my CC permit (Florida) in a week or so.  I took an absolutely
> excellent class from the main trainer at the Brevard county sheriff’s
> office.
>
>
>
> Now, I am looking for an excellent CC gun to use, as my long barrel Colt
> 38 is not a good fit for that.
>
>
>
> I am certain that this group probably has a LOT of expertise (and many
> opinions) on THE gun to use.
>
>
>
> J
>
>
>
> Paul McCall, Pres.
>
> P

Re: [AFMUG] WAY OT: Concealed Carry handguns - which to buy and why

Good one...

From: Jaime Solorza 
Sent: Monday, December 07, 2015 10:04 AM
To: Animal Farm 
Subject: Re: [AFMUG] WAY OT: Concealed Carry handguns - which to buy and why

Ah.  Yes. My 23 yes old baby has a bit of a mean streak
She sent this my son other day ...warning ...cynical pov coming at ya

On Dec 7, 2015 9:50 AM, "Chuck McCown"  wrote:

  My sweet little innocent baby daughter (20 years old) has a wicked sharp 
sense of humor.  
  She can ALWAYS win a gross out contest, with anyone.

  I don’t recall the discussion but she coined out this portmanteau phrase one 
day:
  “me squeal like piggy long time” obviously a confluence of Deliverance and 
Full Metal Jacket.  
  -ugh-
  Not quite my sweet innocent little girl any more... sigh 

  From: Jaime Solorza 
  Sent: Monday, December 07, 2015 9:29 AM
  To: Animal Farm 
  Subject: Re: [AFMUG] WAY OT: Concealed Carry handguns - which to buy and why

  Don't ask me... I am only Texan without a gun.   Think of me more like Burt 
Reynolds in Deliverance.   Ha

  On Dec 7, 2015 9:03 AM, "Paul McCall"  wrote:

I am getting my CC permit (Florida) in a week or so.  I took an absolutely 
excellent class from the main trainer at the Brevard county sheriff’s office.  

Now, I am looking for an excellent CC gun to use, as my long barrel Colt 38 
is not a good fit for that.  

I am certain that this group probably has a LOT of expertise (and many 
opinions) on THE gun to use.

J   

Paul McCall, Pres.

PDMNet / Florida Broadband 

658 Old Dixie Highway

Vero Beach, FL 32962

772-564-6800 office

772-473-0352 cell

www.pdmnet.com

pa...@pdmnet.net

Re: [AFMUG] WAY OT: Concealed Carry handguns - which to buy and why

Ah.  Yes. My 23 yes old baby has a bit of a mean streak
She sent this my son other day ...warning ...cynical pov coming at ya
On Dec 7, 2015 9:50 AM, "Chuck McCown"  wrote:

> My sweet little innocent baby daughter (20 years old) has a wicked sharp
> sense of humor.
> She can ALWAYS win a gross out contest, with anyone.
>
> I don’t recall the discussion but she coined out this portmanteau phrase
> one day:
> “me squeal like piggy long time” obviously a confluence of Deliverance and
> Full Metal Jacket.
> -ugh-
> Not quite my sweet innocent little girl any more... sigh 
>
> *From:* Jaime Solorza 
> *Sent:* Monday, December 07, 2015 9:29 AM
> *To:* Animal Farm 
> *Subject:* Re: [AFMUG] WAY OT: Concealed Carry handguns - which to buy
> and why
>
>
> Don't ask me... I am only Texan without a gun.   Think of me more like
> Burt Reynolds in Deliverance.   Ha
> On Dec 7, 2015 9:03 AM, "Paul McCall"  wrote:
>
>> I am getting my CC permit (Florida) in a week or so.  I took an
>> absolutely excellent class from the main trainer at the Brevard county
>> sheriff’s office.
>>
>>
>>
>> Now, I am looking for an excellent CC gun to use, as my long barrel Colt
>> 38 is not a good fit for that.
>>
>>
>>
>> I am certain that this group probably has a LOT of expertise (and many
>> opinions) on THE gun to use.
>>
>>
>>
>> J
>>
>>
>>
>> Paul McCall, Pres.
>>
>> PDMNet / Florida Broadband
>>
>> 658 Old Dixie Highway
>>
>> Vero Beach, FL 32962
>>
>> 772-564-6800 office
>>
>> 772-473-0352 cell
>>
>> www.pdmnet.com
>>
>> pa...@pdmnet.net
>>
>>
>>
>

Re: [AFMUG] WAY OT: Concealed Carry handguns - which to buy and why

2015-12-07 Thread James Howard

Sig P938 is 9mm and almost exactly the same size as a P238.  I’ve got the SAS 
model (anti snag).  I’ve also got a S&W M&P Shield in 9mm and have looked at 
the Springfield XDS many times.  I just can’t get over the fact that I don’t 
like the grips on the XDS.  Prime reason to go with the XDS is that you can get 
it in 45ACP.  There are a lot of cheaper brands out there too.

If you have a place where you can do it, go and test fire all the different 
options.  My father-in-law bought a Glock 36 because several people told him 
how great they were.  The problem is that it doesn’t fit his hand well at all 
and the trigger digs into his finger so he shoots terrible with it.  His 
accuracy is greatly improved using my M&P Shield.

No matter what you get though.  A major key to carrying it safely is practice 
and being comfortable with it.

From: Af [mailto:af-boun...@afmug.com] On Behalf Of Simon Westlake
Sent: Monday, December 07, 2015 10:09 AM
To: af@afmug.com
Subject: Re: [AFMUG] WAY OT: Concealed Carry handguns - which to buy and why

That was one thing I forgot to mention with the P238.. it has a manual safety 
as well, if that's important to you. I personally don't really care, but it's 
another good point.
On 12/7/2015 10:07 AM, Jeremy wrote:
A lot of people are carrying a gun that has no safety.  The safety is released 
by squeezing the trigger, essentially.  I have kids, and although I plan to 
keep my gun far away from them, I cannot on a clear conscience carry a gun with 
no safety.  I have been considering a revolver.  My bro has a CC and he 
recommends something smaller, so it doesn't jab you in the side whenever you 
sit down.  I am still looking for the right gun for a CC.  I've already had a 
gun pulled on my at a job.

On Mon, Dec 7, 2015 at 9:03 AM, Paul McCall 
mailto:pa...@pdmnet.net>> wrote:
I am getting my CC permit (Florida) in a week or so.  I took an absolutely 
excellent class from the main trainer at the Brevard county sheriff’s office.

Now, I am looking for an excellent CC gun to use, as my long barrel Colt 38 is 
not a good fit for that.

I am certain that this group probably has a LOT of expertise (and many 
opinions) on THE gun to use.

☺

Paul McCall, Pres.
PDMNet / Florida Broadband
658 Old Dixie Highway
Vero Beach, FL 32962
772-564-6800 office
772-473-0352 cell
www.pdmnet.com<http://www.pdmnet.com/>
pa...@pdmnet.net<mailto:pa...@pdmnet.net>





--

Simon Westlake

Skype: Simon_Sonar

Email: simon@sonar.software<mailto:simon@sonar.software>

Phone: (702) 447-1247

---

Sonar Software Inc

The next generation of ISP billing and OSS

https://sonar.software


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Re: [AFMUG] WAY OT: Concealed Carry handguns - which to buy and why

I would agree that "bigger is better" if the energy transfer and temporal
cavity were that much different between 9mm and 45ACP, but in reality, they
are not.

Now if you step up to a hand cannon like a 44mag or .500SW, that's a bit
different... but good luck concealed carrying those on a hot summer day.

I'll leave you with this, for some "light reading" on handgun calibers,
temporal cavities, rounds to incapacitate, etc.
http://www.buckeyefirearms.org/alternate-look-handgun-stopping-power

On Mon, Dec 7, 2015 at 10:38 AM, Cameron Crum  wrote:

> I carry a Colt 45 Defender. It is relatively small for a 45. An NSA buddy
> of mine, who had been in several close range shootouts in his career asked
> me one time why I carry a 45. I told him that I'd never been in a
> firefight. I don't train in high pressure situations, and while I'm
> proficient at the range, I don't train for situations like he did or the
> cops do. If I am in a situation where I have to pull a gun, my adrenaline
> is going to be pumping like crazy, and I may be moving to cover or trying
> to stay out of the way of bullets myself. I may only hit what I'm shooting
> at once if I'm lucky. I want the once to count.
>
> On Mon, Dec 7, 2015 at 10:30 AM, That One Guy /sarcasm <
> thatoneguyst...@gmail.com> wrote:
>
>> define legally
>> If a bear shits in the woods, will tight shoes cause callouses?
>>
>> I dont know why any of you want these killing machines, the government
>> has guns, and we pay them to protect us. Your gun, if you hand it to a bad
>> guy, is 100% of the time going to be in the bad guys possession, and if
>> that bad guy happens to be 5, youve just given a child a handgun, are you
>> saying we should arm children? Why are you trying to kill children,
>> children are the future, teach them well and let them lead the way.
>>
>>
>> Imperialist scum be furthering decline humanity. Mighty leader will
>> devour you in fear.
>>
>>
>> 
>>
>> On Mon, Dec 7, 2015 at 10:17 AM, Chuck McCown  wrote:
>>
>>> Can you legally own hand grenades?
>>>
>>> *From:* Mathew Howard 
>>> *Sent:* Monday, December 07, 2015 9:15 AM
>>> *To:* af 
>>> *Subject:* Re: [AFMUG] WAY OT: Concealed Carry handguns - which to buy
>>> and why
>>>
>>> you do if you want to conceal it... :P
>>>
>>> On Mon, Dec 7, 2015 at 10:14 AM, Chuck McCown  wrote:
>>>
>>>> You don’t need a CC to carry a Springfield 30-06
>>>>
>>>> *From:* Paul McCall 
>>>> *Sent:* Monday, December 07, 2015 9:03 AM
>>>> *To:* af@afmug.com
>>>> *Subject:* [AFMUG] WAY OT: Concealed Carry handguns - which to buy and
>>>> why
>>>>
>>>>
>>>> I am getting my CC permit (Florida) in a week or so.  I took an
>>>> absolutely excellent class from the main trainer at the Brevard county
>>>> sheriff’s office.
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>> Now, I am looking for an excellent CC gun to use, as my long barrel
>>>> Colt 38 is not a good fit for that.
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>> I am certain that this group probably has a LOT of expertise (and many
>>>> opinions) on THE gun to use.
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>> J
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>> Paul McCall, Pres.
>>>>
>>>> PDMNet / Florida Broadband
>>>>
>>>> 658 Old Dixie Highway
>>>>
>>>> Vero Beach, FL 32962
>>>>
>>>> 772-564-6800 office
>>>>
>>>> 772-473-0352 cell
>>>>
>>>> www.pdmnet.com
>>>>
>>>> pa...@pdmnet.net
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>
>>>
>>
>>
>>
>> --
>> If you only see yourself as part of the team but you don't see your team
>> as part of yourself you have already failed as part of the team.
>>
>
>

Re: [AFMUG] WAY OT: Concealed Carry handguns - which to buy and why

t for it, but he opponents are much more intense 
about it.”

The Old West’s leaders who argued for gun control knew that a long time ago. 
Their arguments sound as contemporary at the end of this century as they were 
earnest at the end of the last. But despite them, few packers have been 
persuaded to put away their pistols, then or now.

Copyright 2004 by Ross F. Collins 
Wayne LaPierre sure has done his job well. He’s made most of you fooled into 
thinking owning a gun is a patriotic act without you realizing you are just 
another tool for raking in the dough. He’s been so successful he’s converted 
gun ownership into a religious issue, to point that whether or not you own a 
gun is highly predictive of your being an evangelical Christian.

https://www.washingtonpost.com/local/is-gun-ownership-christian/2013/01/25/c7afe7fe-6724-11e2-93e1-475791032daf_story.html

Patrick

From: Af [mailto:af-boun...@afmug.com] On Behalf Of Cameron Crum
Sent: Monday, December 7, 2015 11:38 AM
To: af@afmug.com
Subject: Re: [AFMUG] WAY OT: Concealed Carry handguns - which to buy and why

I carry a Colt 45 Defender. It is relatively small for a 45. An NSA buddy of 
mine, who had been in several close range shootouts in his career asked me one 
time why I carry a 45. I told him that I'd never been in a firefight. I don't 
train in high pressure situations, and while I'm proficient at the range, I 
don't train for situations like he did or the cops do. If I am in a situation 
where I have to pull a gun, my adrenaline is going to be pumping like crazy, 
and I may be moving to cover or trying to stay out of the way of bullets 
myself. I may only hit what I'm shooting at once if I'm lucky. I want the once 
to count.

On Mon, Dec 7, 2015 at 10:30 AM, That One Guy /sarcasm 
mailto:thatoneguyst...@gmail.com>> wrote:
define legally
If a bear shits in the woods, will tight shoes cause callouses?

I dont know why any of you want these killing machines, the government has 
guns, and we pay them to protect us. Your gun, if you hand it to a bad guy, is 
100% of the time going to be in the bad guys possession, and if that bad guy 
happens to be 5, youve just given a child a handgun, are you saying we should 
arm children? Why are you trying to kill children, children are the future, 
teach them well and let them lead the way.


Imperialist scum be furthering decline humanity. Mighty leader will devour you 
in fear.

[cid:image002.jpg@01D130E4.F6E6C290]


On Mon, Dec 7, 2015 at 10:17 AM, Chuck McCown 
mailto:ch...@wbmfg.com>> wrote:
Can you legally own hand grenades?

From: Mathew Howard<mailto:mhoward...@gmail.com>
Sent: Monday, December 07, 2015 9:15 AM
To: af<mailto:af@afmug.com>
Subject: Re: [AFMUG] WAY OT: Concealed Carry handguns - which to buy and why

you do if you want to conceal it... :P

On Mon, Dec 7, 2015 at 10:14 AM, Chuck McCown 
mailto:ch...@wbmfg.com>> wrote:
You don’t need a CC to carry a Springfield 30-06

From: Paul McCall<mailto:pa...@pdmnet.net>
Sent: Monday, December 07, 2015 9:03 AM
To: af@afmug.com<mailto:af@afmug.com>
Subject: [AFMUG] WAY OT: Concealed Carry handguns - which to buy and why

I am getting my CC permit (Florida) in a week or so.  I took an absolutely 
excellent class from the main trainer at the Brevard county sheriff’s office.

Now, I am looking for an excellent CC gun to use, as my long barrel Colt 38 is 
not a good fit for that.

I am certain that this group probably has a LOT of expertise (and many 
opinions) on THE gun to use.

☺

Paul McCall, Pres.
PDMNet / Florida Broadband
658 Old Dixie Highway
Vero Beach, FL 32962
772-564-6800 office
772-473-0352 cell
www.pdmnet.com<http://www.pdmnet.com/>
pa...@pdmnet.net<mailto:pa...@pdmnet.net>





--
If you only see yourself as part of the team but you don't see your team as 
part of yourself you have already failed as part of the team.





This footnote confirms that this email message has been scanned by
PineApp Mail-SeCure for the presence of malicious code, vandals & computer 
viruses.


 
 

This footnote confirms that this email message has been scanned by
PineApp Mail-SeCure for the presence of malicious code, vandals & computer 
viruses.

Re: [AFMUG] WAY OT: Concealed Carry handguns - which to buy and why

My sweet little innocent baby daughter (20 years old) has a wicked sharp sense 
of humor.  
She can ALWAYS win a gross out contest, with anyone.

I don’t recall the discussion but she coined out this portmanteau phrase one 
day:
“me squeal like piggy long time” obviously a confluence of Deliverance and Full 
Metal Jacket.  
-ugh-
Not quite my sweet innocent little girl any more... sigh 

From: Jaime Solorza 
Sent: Monday, December 07, 2015 9:29 AM
To: Animal Farm 
Subject: Re: [AFMUG] WAY OT: Concealed Carry handguns - which to buy and why

Don't ask me... I am only Texan without a gun.   Think of me more like Burt 
Reynolds in Deliverance.   Ha

On Dec 7, 2015 9:03 AM, "Paul McCall"  wrote:

  I am getting my CC permit (Florida) in a week or so.  I took an absolutely 
excellent class from the main trainer at the Brevard county sheriff’s office.  



  Now, I am looking for an excellent CC gun to use, as my long barrel Colt 38 
is not a good fit for that.  



  I am certain that this group probably has a LOT of expertise (and many 
opinions) on THE gun to use.



  J   



  Paul McCall, Pres.

  PDMNet / Florida Broadband 

  658 Old Dixie Highway

  Vero Beach, FL 32962

  772-564-6800 office

  772-473-0352 cell

  www.pdmnet.com

  pa...@pdmnet.net

Re: [AFMUG] WAY OT: Concealed Carry handguns - which to buy and why

2015-12-07 Thread Cameron Crum

I carry a Colt 45 Defender. It is relatively small for a 45. An NSA buddy
of mine, who had been in several close range shootouts in his career asked
me one time why I carry a 45. I told him that I'd never been in a
firefight. I don't train in high pressure situations, and while I'm
proficient at the range, I don't train for situations like he did or the
cops do. If I am in a situation where I have to pull a gun, my adrenaline
is going to be pumping like crazy, and I may be moving to cover or trying
to stay out of the way of bullets myself. I may only hit what I'm shooting
at once if I'm lucky. I want the once to count.

On Mon, Dec 7, 2015 at 10:30 AM, That One Guy /sarcasm <
thatoneguyst...@gmail.com> wrote:

> define legally
> If a bear shits in the woods, will tight shoes cause callouses?
>
> I dont know why any of you want these killing machines, the government has
> guns, and we pay them to protect us. Your gun, if you hand it to a bad guy,
> is 100% of the time going to be in the bad guys possession, and if that bad
> guy happens to be 5, youve just given a child a handgun, are you saying we
> should arm children? Why are you trying to kill children, children are the
> future, teach them well and let them lead the way.
>
>
> Imperialist scum be furthering decline humanity. Mighty leader will devour
> you in fear.
>
>
> 
>
> On Mon, Dec 7, 2015 at 10:17 AM, Chuck McCown  wrote:
>
>> Can you legally own hand grenades?
>>
>> *From:* Mathew Howard 
>> *Sent:* Monday, December 07, 2015 9:15 AM
>> *To:* af 
>> *Subject:* Re: [AFMUG] WAY OT: Concealed Carry handguns - which to buy
>> and why
>>
>> you do if you want to conceal it... :P
>>
>> On Mon, Dec 7, 2015 at 10:14 AM, Chuck McCown  wrote:
>>
>>> You don’t need a CC to carry a Springfield 30-06
>>>
>>> *From:* Paul McCall 
>>> *Sent:* Monday, December 07, 2015 9:03 AM
>>> *To:* af@afmug.com
>>> *Subject:* [AFMUG] WAY OT: Concealed Carry handguns - which to buy and
>>> why
>>>
>>>
>>> I am getting my CC permit (Florida) in a week or so.  I took an
>>> absolutely excellent class from the main trainer at the Brevard county
>>> sheriff’s office.
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>> Now, I am looking for an excellent CC gun to use, as my long barrel Colt
>>> 38 is not a good fit for that.
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>> I am certain that this group probably has a LOT of expertise (and many
>>> opinions) on THE gun to use.
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>> J
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>> Paul McCall, Pres.
>>>
>>> PDMNet / Florida Broadband
>>>
>>> 658 Old Dixie Highway
>>>
>>> Vero Beach, FL 32962
>>>
>>> 772-564-6800 office
>>>
>>> 772-473-0352 cell
>>>
>>> www.pdmnet.com
>>>
>>> pa...@pdmnet.net
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>
>>
>
>
>
> --
> If you only see yourself as part of the team but you don't see your team
> as part of yourself you have already failed as part of the team.
>

Re: [AFMUG] WAY OT: Concealed Carry handguns - which to buy and why

define legally
If a bear shits in the woods, will tight shoes cause callouses?

I dont know why any of you want these killing machines, the government has
guns, and we pay them to protect us. Your gun, if you hand it to a bad guy,
is 100% of the time going to be in the bad guys possession, and if that bad
guy happens to be 5, youve just given a child a handgun, are you saying we
should arm children? Why are you trying to kill children, children are the
future, teach them well and let them lead the way.

Imperialist scum be furthering decline humanity. Mighty leader will devour
you in fear.

On Mon, Dec 7, 2015 at 10:17 AM, Chuck McCown  wrote:

> Can you legally own hand grenades?
>
> *From:* Mathew Howard 
> *Sent:* Monday, December 07, 2015 9:15 AM
> *To:* af 
> *Subject:* Re: [AFMUG] WAY OT: Concealed Carry handguns - which to buy
> and why
>
> you do if you want to conceal it... :P
>
> On Mon, Dec 7, 2015 at 10:14 AM, Chuck McCown  wrote:
>
>> You don’t need a CC to carry a Springfield 30-06
>>
>> *From:* Paul McCall 
>> *Sent:* Monday, December 07, 2015 9:03 AM
>> *To:* af@afmug.com
>> *Subject:* [AFMUG] WAY OT: Concealed Carry handguns - which to buy and
>> why
>>
>>
>> I am getting my CC permit (Florida) in a week or so.  I took an
>> absolutely excellent class from the main trainer at the Brevard county
>> sheriff’s office.
>>
>>
>>
>> Now, I am looking for an excellent CC gun to use, as my long barrel Colt
>> 38 is not a good fit for that.
>>
>>
>>
>> I am certain that this group probably has a LOT of expertise (and many
>> opinions) on THE gun to use.
>>
>>
>>
>> J
>>
>>
>>
>> Paul McCall, Pres.
>>
>> PDMNet / Florida Broadband
>>
>> 658 Old Dixie Highway
>>
>> Vero Beach, FL 32962
>>
>> 772-564-6800 office
>>
>> 772-473-0352 cell
>>
>> www.pdmnet.com
>>
>> pa...@pdmnet.net
>>
>>
>>
>
>

-- 
If you only see yourself as part of the team but you don't see your team as
part of yourself you have already failed as part of the team.

Re: [AFMUG] WAY OT: Concealed Carry handguns - which to buy and why

Don't ask me... I am only Texan without a gun.   Think of me more like Burt
Reynolds in Deliverance.   Ha
On Dec 7, 2015 9:03 AM, "Paul McCall"  wrote:

> I am getting my CC permit (Florida) in a week or so.  I took an absolutely
> excellent class from the main trainer at the Brevard county sheriff’s
> office.
>
>
>
> Now, I am looking for an excellent CC gun to use, as my long barrel Colt
> 38 is not a good fit for that.
>
>
>
> I am certain that this group probably has a LOT of expertise (and many
> opinions) on THE gun to use.
>
>
>
> J
>
>
>
> Paul McCall, Pres.
>
> PDMNet / Florida Broadband
>
> 658 Old Dixie Highway
>
> Vero Beach, FL 32962
>
> 772-564-6800 office
>
> 772-473-0352 cell
>
> www.pdmnet.com
>
> pa...@pdmnet.net
>
>
>

Re: [AFMUG] WAY OT: Concealed Carry handguns - which to buy and why

2015-12-07 Thread Josh Luthman

I don't really have any suggestions but I carry a 21SF.  It's a bit big,
but I'd rather have something that works than have a convenient to carry
useless thing.


Josh Luthman
Office: 937-552-2340
Direct: 937-552-2343
1100 Wayne St
Suite 1337
Troy, OH 45373

On Mon, Dec 7, 2015 at 11:19 AM, Jeff Broadwick - Lists 
wrote:

> Hard to carry in your pocket though.
>
> Kahr and Ruger have some nice, pocket carry able pistols with some pop.
> If it's too big, you won't carry it.  In the summer, I wear shorts and
> t-shirts all the time, so I need something concealable in any type of
> clothing.
>
> Jeff Broadwick
> ConVergence Technologies, Inc.
> 312-205-2519 Office
> 574-220-7826 Cell
> jbroadw...@converge-tech.com
>
> On Dec 7, 2015, at 11:14 AM, Chuck McCown  wrote:
>
> You don’t need a CC to carry a Springfield 30-06
>
> *From:* Paul McCall 
> *Sent:* Monday, December 07, 2015 9:03 AM
> *To:* af@afmug.com
> *Subject:* [AFMUG] WAY OT: Concealed Carry handguns - which to buy and why
>
>
> I am getting my CC permit (Florida) in a week or so.  I took an absolutely
> excellent class from the main trainer at the Brevard county sheriff’s
> office.
>
>
>
> Now, I am looking for an excellent CC gun to use, as my long barrel Colt
> 38 is not a good fit for that.
>
>
>
> I am certain that this group probably has a LOT of expertise (and many
> opinions) on THE gun to use.
>
>
>
> J
>
>
>
> Paul McCall, Pres.
>
> PDMNet / Florida Broadband
>
> 658 Old Dixie Highway
>
> Vero Beach, FL 32962
>
> 772-564-6800 office
>
> 772-473-0352 cell
>
> www.pdmnet.com
>
> pa...@pdmnet.net
>
>
>
>

Re: [AFMUG] WAY OT: Concealed Carry handguns - which to buy and why

2015-12-07 Thread Jeff Broadwick - Lists

Hard to carry in your pocket though.

Kahr and Ruger have some nice, pocket carry able pistols with some pop.  If 
it's too big, you won't carry it.  In the summer, I wear shorts and t-shirts 
all the time, so I need something concealable in any type of clothing.

Jeff Broadwick
ConVergence Technologies, Inc.
312-205-2519 Office
574-220-7826 Cell
jbroadw...@converge-tech.com

> On Dec 7, 2015, at 11:14 AM, Chuck McCown  wrote:
> 
> You don’t need a CC to carry a Springfield 30-06
>  
> From: Paul McCall
> Sent: Monday, December 07, 2015 9:03 AM
> To: af@afmug.com
> Subject: [AFMUG] WAY OT: Concealed Carry handguns - which to buy and why
>  
> I am getting my CC permit (Florida) in a week or so.  I took an absolutely 
> excellent class from the main trainer at the Brevard county sheriff’s office. 
>  
> Now, I am looking for an excellent CC gun to use, as my long barrel Colt 38 
> is not a good fit for that. 
>  
> I am certain that this group probably has a LOT of expertise (and many 
> opinions) on THE gun to use.
>  
> J  
>  
> Paul McCall, Pres.
> PDMNet / Florida Broadband
> 658 Old Dixie Highway
> Vero Beach, FL 32962
> 772-564-6800 office
> 772-473-0352 cell
> www.pdmnet.com
> pa...@pdmnet.net
>

Re: [AFMUG] WAY OT: Concealed Carry handguns - which to buy and why

2015-12-07 Thread Jeremy

Not since 1968

On Mon, Dec 7, 2015 at 9:17 AM, Chuck McCown  wrote:

> Can you legally own hand grenades?
>
> *From:* Mathew Howard 
> *Sent:* Monday, December 07, 2015 9:15 AM
> *To:* af 
> *Subject:* Re: [AFMUG] WAY OT: Concealed Carry handguns - which to buy
> and why
>
> you do if you want to conceal it... :P
>
> On Mon, Dec 7, 2015 at 10:14 AM, Chuck McCown  wrote:
>
>> You don’t need a CC to carry a Springfield 30-06
>>
>> *From:* Paul McCall 
>> *Sent:* Monday, December 07, 2015 9:03 AM
>> *To:* af@afmug.com
>> *Subject:* [AFMUG] WAY OT: Concealed Carry handguns - which to buy and
>> why
>>
>>
>> I am getting my CC permit (Florida) in a week or so.  I took an
>> absolutely excellent class from the main trainer at the Brevard county
>> sheriff’s office.
>>
>>
>>
>> Now, I am looking for an excellent CC gun to use, as my long barrel Colt
>> 38 is not a good fit for that.
>>
>>
>>
>> I am certain that this group probably has a LOT of expertise (and many
>> opinions) on THE gun to use.
>>
>>
>>
>> J
>>
>>
>>
>> Paul McCall, Pres.
>>
>> PDMNet / Florida Broadband
>>
>> 658 Old Dixie Highway
>>
>> Vero Beach, FL 32962
>>
>> 772-564-6800 office
>>
>> 772-473-0352 cell
>>
>> www.pdmnet.com
>>
>> pa...@pdmnet.net
>>
>>
>>
>
>

Re: [AFMUG] WAY OT: Concealed Carry handguns - which to buy and why

Can you legally own hand grenades?

From: Mathew Howard 
Sent: Monday, December 07, 2015 9:15 AM
To: af 
Subject: Re: [AFMUG] WAY OT: Concealed Carry handguns - which to buy and why

you do if you want to conceal it... :P

On Mon, Dec 7, 2015 at 10:14 AM, Chuck McCown  wrote:

  You don’t need a CC to carry a Springfield 30-06

  From: Paul McCall 
  Sent: Monday, December 07, 2015 9:03 AM
  To: af@afmug.com 
  Subject: [AFMUG] WAY OT: Concealed Carry handguns - which to buy and why

  I am getting my CC permit (Florida) in a week or so.  I took an absolutely 
excellent class from the main trainer at the Brevard county sheriff’s office.  

  Now, I am looking for an excellent CC gun to use, as my long barrel Colt 38 
is not a good fit for that.  

  I am certain that this group probably has a LOT of expertise (and many 
opinions) on THE gun to use.

  J   

  Paul McCall, Pres.

  PDMNet / Florida Broadband 

  658 Old Dixie Highway

  Vero Beach, FL 32962

  772-564-6800 office

  772-473-0352 cell

  www.pdmnet.com

  pa...@pdmnet.net

Re: [AFMUG] WAY OT: Concealed Carry handguns - which to buy and why

Concealed Howitzer? :-p 




- 
Mike Hammett 
Intelligent Computing Solutions 
http://www.ics-il.com 



Midwest Internet Exchange 
http://www.midwest-ix.com 


- Original Message -

From: "Mathew Howard"  
To: "af"  
Sent: Monday, December 7, 2015 10:15:02 AM 
Subject: Re: [AFMUG] WAY OT: Concealed Carry handguns - which to buy and why 


you do if you want to conceal it... :P 



On Mon, Dec 7, 2015 at 10:14 AM, Chuck McCown < ch...@wbmfg.com > wrote: 






You don’t need a CC to carry a Springfield 30-06 




From: Paul McCall 
Sent: Monday, December 07, 2015 9:03 AM 
To: af@afmug.com 
Subject: [AFMUG] WAY OT: Concealed Carry handguns - which to buy and why 



I am getting my CC permit (Florida) in a week or so. I took an absolutely 
excellent class from the main trainer at the Brevard county sheriff’s office. 

Now, I am looking for an excellent CC gun to use, as my long barrel Colt 38 is 
not a good fit for that. 

I am certain that this group probably has a LOT of expertise (and many 
opinions) on THE gun to use. 

J 

Paul McCall, Pres. 
PDMNet / Florida Broadband 
658 Old Dixie Highway 
Vero Beach, FL 32962 
772-564-6800 office 
772-473-0352 cell 
www.pdmnet.com 
pa...@pdmnet.net

Re: [AFMUG] WAY OT: Concealed Carry handguns - which to buy and why

You don’t need a CC to carry a Springfield 30-06

From: Paul McCall 
Sent: Monday, December 07, 2015 9:03 AM
To: af@afmug.com 
Subject: [AFMUG] WAY OT: Concealed Carry handguns - which to buy and why

I am getting my CC permit (Florida) in a week or so.  I took an absolutely 
excellent class from the main trainer at the Brevard county sheriff’s office.  

Now, I am looking for an excellent CC gun to use, as my long barrel Colt 38 is 
not a good fit for that.  

I am certain that this group probably has a LOT of expertise (and many 
opinions) on THE gun to use.

J   

Paul McCall, Pres.

PDMNet / Florida Broadband 

658 Old Dixie Highway

Vero Beach, FL 32962

772-564-6800 office

772-473-0352 cell

www.pdmnet.com

pa...@pdmnet.net

Re: [AFMUG] WAY OT: Concealed Carry handguns - which to buy and why