date:20030403

On Wed, Apr 02, 2003 at 11:05:18PM -0500, John D. Giorgis wrote:

 That's why I made the bet in constant 2003 US dollars.  The value of
 that is fixed for all time.  Barring the end of civilization as we
 know it (in which case, neither of us is collecting) we will be able
 to convert the fixed value of 2003US$100 into whatever units of value
 we are using in 2023.

So, you are basically relying on someone's calculation of CPI in
2023 relative to 2003, probably the US government. Although normally
considered reliable, if I were betting against the US (not that I
would), I would be a little hesitant to accept such a measure. Hence my
suggestion of a more neutral standard, such as gold.



-- 
Erik Reuter [EMAIL PROTECTED]   http://www.erikreuter.net/
___
http://www.mccmedia.com/mailman/listinfo/brin-l

Re: Brin Calls for an Attack on Riyadh Re: Brin: David Frum on theWar Plans

2003-04-03 Thread G. D. Akin

- Original Message -
From: d.brin [EMAIL PROTECTED]
To: Killer Bs Discussion [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Sent: Thursday, April 03, 2003 3:43 PM
Subject: Re: Brin Calls for an Attack on Riyadh Re: Brin: David Frum on the
War Plans

 1.  I was being sardonic about attacking Riyadh.  Just recognizing
 their enmity would enable us to demand that they choose between their
 mansions and jihad.  Right now, we allow them to have both. WHat a
 deal.  I wish my daddy owned a thousand oil wells and Dick Cheney.

 2. Our forces were 24 hours from liberating Basra in 1991.  With that
 city and the rest of southern Iraq safe, and the kurdish north safe,
 Saddam would have had no oil and no victims.  We could have then
 sifted through our 200,000 prisoners for enough to make several eager
 divisions of the Army of New Iraq and sent THEM to Baghdad.  Or let
 Saddam stew till someone shot him.  With no oil, and steadily
 strengthening Shiite and Kurdish republics hemming him in, his days
 would be numbered.

 It was a no-brainer.  And hell yes I would have voted against Colin
 Powell after that.  Any time any place anywhen anyhow.

 The record shows that it was frantic messages from Ankara and Riyadh
 that made Bush Sr. call a halt.  They hated the idea of free
 Kurdistan and free shiite arabs.  Each of them have huge minorities
 of those groups nearby.  And you will never, ever see a Bush make a
 decision that harms the interests of a Saudi prince.

 Again, these are the turkeys who made this situation. They dishonored
 us when we betrayed the shiites (see the movie Three Kings).  They
 are now waging this war in the dumbest possible way, though I pray
 the competence of our troops will prevail.

 I didn't say any of that.  When W crosses the Rubicon, I supported
 him all along.

So who do they hate more, the U.S. or rival tribes?

George A

___
http://www.mccmedia.com/mailman/listinfo/brin-l

Re: Question for those who are anti-war . . .

2003-04-03 Thread Jean-Marc Chaton

* Gautam Mukunda [Tue, 01/04/2003 at 13:49 -0800]
 
 Note, for example, two simple actions by France:
 1. They publicly threatened the Eastern European
 candidate countries with blackballing from EU
 membership for supporting the US and
 2. It is now revealed that they did the same to
 Turkey, which was one of the major reasons we did not
 get Turkish support, something which will undoubtedly
 cost the lives of dozens of Americans and thousands of
 Iraqis.

I'm interested in links to support your point 2. To my knowledge France
hasn't got a particular link or lever  with Turkey. Germany has, though,
due to historial, sociological (large part of its population is Turkish)
, and economical. But I can't stop thinking Turkey, at least  those
whose got the last word in Turkey, i.e. high rank military, has and
always had their own agenda in the region.


 
 What the French government, in its quest to attack the
 United States in this affair, didn't realize is that
 American politics are not like French politics.  What
 the people think in the United States has a real
 influence on foreign policy.  And the people, right
 now, are pissed at France.  That's not going to go
 away.  An entire generation of politically active
 Americans who came of age during this crisis are going
 to think of France as an enemy of the United States. 
 That is damage that may never be healed.

Do they consider Germany as an enemy ?

-- 
Jean-Marc
___
http://www.mccmedia.com/mailman/listinfo/brin-l

Re: Question for those who are anti-war . . .

JDG wrote: 
  
 Lastly, the total cost of the war is: 
 Total Cost = Wait Costs + War Costs 
  
 If we consider that War Costs is fixed, (...) 
 
But it is *not* fixed. The USA coalition could 
wait another 30 years, when the Iraqi population 
would be all over 50 [all iq children would die 
after 42 years of siege warfare], and the cost 
of the war would decrease substantially 
 
Alberto Monteiro 
 
___
http://www.mccmedia.com/mailman/listinfo/brin-l

Re: Brin: The Next Big Thing

JDG wrote: 
  
 Meanwhile, in France, even Le Monde has begun openly 
 questioning the wisdom of Chirac's foreign policy in 
 this crisis, and the wisdom of trying to 
 align Paris with Moscow and Beijing.   In other words, 
 France may well be coming to their senses and starting 
 to remember whom their real friends are 
 and should be. 
 
France has two problems: they have to balance their 
arabphobia [hmmm... how do you say arab - a Latin 
word - in Greek?] with their antiamericanism. 
 
I know (half-dark)-skinned brazilians who were  
discriminated in France until they were proven 
*not* to be of Arab [and Islamic] origins. 
 
In the long term, an iraqian victory over the USA 
coalition would be much more disastrous to France. 
 
Alberto Monteiro 
 
___
http://www.mccmedia.com/mailman/listinfo/brin-l

Re: Brin Calls for an Attack on Riyadh Re: Brin: David Frum onthe War Plans

At 10:43 PM 4/2/2003 -0800 d.brin wrote:
1.  I was being sardonic about attacking Riyadh.  Just recognizing 
their enmity would enable us to demand that they choose between their 
mansions and jihad. 

And if this Saudis refuse this demand, then what?  How do you plan to back
up your threats?I think that this leaves you right back and having to
consider an attack on Riyadh - and I think that given the long list of
danger such an attack would entail without the federal republic of Iraq
with an ally would definitely lead the Saudis to cal our bluff.

2. Our forces were 24 hours from liberating Basra in 1991.  With that 
city and the rest of southern Iraq safe, and the kurdish north safe, 
Saddam would have had no oil and no victims.  We could have then 
sifted through our 200,000 prisoners for enough to make several eager 
divisions of the Army of New Iraq and sent THEM to Baghdad.  Or let 
Saddam stew till someone shot him.  With no oil, and steadily 
strengthening Shiite and Kurdish republics hemming him in, his days 
would be numbered.

It was a no-brainer. 

Dr. Brin, you have previously cited a major risk for the US in the Middle
East the possibility that the US might enflame enmity between Muslims and
Arabs and us.   Out of curiosity, how do you think the Arab world react to
the United States carving up Sunni Arab Iraq and handing the most oil-rich
parts to arbitrarily US-formed Shia and Kurdish-minority States?Might
not a great many ordinary Arabs regard these new States as being
essentially US-colonies and also be quite upset at the new Palestine in
which Arab land is handed by Western Powers to others?

Additionally, you have previously cited a major risk for the United States
to be acting without a sufficient number of allies.   Out of curiosity, how
many allies do you think we would have had supporting us in carving up Iraq
in this way?   Indeed, how many Arab allies would have even let us evict
Iraq from Kuwait had we made this our policy?

And you will never, ever see a Bush make a 
decision that harms the interests of a Saudi prince.

Out of curiosity, how many Saudi Princes have you seen support this war?
Indeed, let me go one step further, how many Saudi Princes have you seen do
anything but campaign *heavily* against starting this war?

JDG
___
John D. Giorgis - [EMAIL PROTECTED]
   The liberty we prize is not America's gift to the world, 
   it is God's gift to humanity. - George W. Bush 1/29/03
___
http://www.mccmedia.com/mailman/listinfo/brin-l

Re: christian vultures circling iraq ready to strike

At 03:03 PM 4/3/2003 +1000 Russell Chapman wrote:
John D. Giorgis wrote:

At 01:56 PM 4/3/2003 +1000 Russell Chapman wrote:

Couldn't evil be defined as something that causes net loss/pain/cost to 
the larger community, for no benefit other than gratification on the 
part of the transgressor?


It seems to me that this would be an article of faith.

Faith in what/whom ?

Your above statement is simply a fiat.   It is not universally developable
by other sentients.   Thus, while your above statement may be practical
(although it is so vague, I'm not even sure that it is that), to believe
that it is absolutely true is only possible through faith.

JDG
___
John D. Giorgis - [EMAIL PROTECTED]
   The liberty we prize is not America's gift to the world, 
   it is God's gift to humanity. - George W. Bush 1/29/03
___
http://www.mccmedia.com/mailman/listinfo/brin-l

Re: Brin: David Frum on the War Plans

At 08:58 PM 4/2/2003 -0800 Gautam Mukunda wrote:
Not that any of this should be taken to mean that I
think leaving the treaty was a good idea.  Dan has
managed to convince me (absent classified evidence
otherwise, at least) that the technology for missile
defense is so unready that there's not really any
point to the exercise - so why pay the price if you're
not getting any benefits?

For two reasons.   One, the price of withdrawing from ABM at this point
seems to  have been trivially small.

Secondly, the ABM treaty even prevented *research* into ABM systems.
Developing missile defense in the mid-terms is quickly becoming a moral
imperative in this war.   The ABM treaty would never even let us get there.

JDG
___
John D. Giorgis - [EMAIL PROTECTED]
   The liberty we prize is not America's gift to the world, 
   it is God's gift to humanity. - George W. Bush 1/29/03
___
http://www.mccmedia.com/mailman/listinfo/brin-l

RE: Question for those who are anti-war . . .

At 11:34 PM 4/2/2003 -0600 Horn, John wrote:
 From: Kevin Street [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]
 
 The thing that bothers me so much here is that this time it's 
 *America*
 who's the aggressor. The one major power that has (almost) 
 never acted in an
 imperialistic manner, the country that has helped other 
 nations far more
 than it has harmed them. A country that has, up until now, been an
 inspiration and model for the world.
 
 Yes, we expect more of the United States than other countries. And the
 United States should expect more of itself.

Yes, I think I've said before that this is exactly my biggest problem with
the whole thing.  America just doesn't things like this.  Or at least that
what I've always thought.  Not in this century, er, last century.
Unfortunately, that's where we find ourselves.

Doesn't imperialism require the formation of a colony?

JDG
___
John D. Giorgis - [EMAIL PROTECTED]
   The liberty we prize is not America's gift to the world, 
   it is God's gift to humanity. - George W. Bush 1/29/03
___
http://www.mccmedia.com/mailman/listinfo/brin-l

Re: Calls for an Attack on Riyadh Re: Brin: David Frum on the War Plans

At 10:35 PM 4/2/2003 -0800 Deborah Harrell wrote:
--- John D. Giorgis [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote:
 d.brin wrote:
much snippage 
*Technical point*  Your quote was NOT what he said!


Deborah, you snipped too far.

Here is what was written:

The difference  between now and WWII is that such people would not be
allowed to commit similar errors 12 years later, like..  attacking in
180 degrees the wrong direction.  

Saddam could have waited.  The people who are killing Americans, waging
jihad against our civilization and corrupting our leaders live in Riyadh.


Dr. Brin is not simply making the North Korea argument (i.e. isn't North
Korea or X a greater and more immediate threat traq?)

No, Dr. Brin has clearly called our failure to attack Riyadh an error.

Now, maybe that's not what he intended (his most recent post basically
retracts the above comment as being sardonic), but I did not misstate the
actual words that were written.

JDG


___
John D. Giorgis - [EMAIL PROTECTED]
   The liberty we prize is not America's gift to the world, 
   it is God's gift to humanity. - George W. Bush 1/29/03
___
http://www.mccmedia.com/mailman/listinfo/brin-l

Re: Brin Calls for an Attack on Riyadh

G. D. Akin asked: 
  
 So who do they hate more, the U.S. or rival tribes? 
  
There's an arab motto, more or like: 
 
  I against my brother. I and my brother against our cousin. 
  I, my brother and my cousin against our neighbour. 
  I, my brother, my cousing, and my neighbour against the 
  stranger. 
 
They hate the rival tribe intensely, but they will team 
up against the USA 
 
Alberto Monteiro 
 
___
http://www.mccmedia.com/mailman/listinfo/brin-l

Re: christian vultures circling iraq ready to strike

2003-04-03 Thread William T Goodall

On Thursday, April 3, 2003, at 01:25  pm, John D. Giorgis wrote:

At 03:03 PM 4/3/2003 +1000 Russell Chapman wrote:
John D. Giorgis wrote:

At 01:56 PM 4/3/2003 +1000 Russell Chapman wrote:

Couldn't evil be defined as something that causes net 
loss/pain/cost to
the larger community, for no benefit other than gratification on the
part of the transgressor?

It seems to me that this would be an article of faith.

Faith in what/whom ?
Your above statement is simply a fiat.   It is not universally 
developable
by other sentients.   Thus, while your above statement may be practical
(although it is so vague, I'm not even sure that it is that), to 
believe
that it is absolutely true is only possible through faith.

Many kinds of personal beliefs can be a priori or tautological, and 
therefore do not require any faith at all.

--
William T Goodall
Mail : [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Web  : http://www.wtgab.demon.co.uk
Blog : http://radio.weblogs.com/0111221/
'The true sausage buff will sooner or later want his own meat
grinder.' -- Jack Schmidling
___
http://www.mccmedia.com/mailman/listinfo/brin-l

Two Teachers Suspended For War-Related Art

Two Teachers Suspended 
For War-Related Art
4-2-3 


ALBUQUERQUE, N.M. (Reuters) - Two Albuquerque teachers were placed on
administrative leave earlier this week for refusing to remove Iraqi
war-related artwork made by students from their classroom, school
officials said on Wednesday. 
  
The artwork was part of a project aimed at portraying students' views
about war and included both pro- and anti-war pieces, officials at
Highland High School said. 
  
Albuquerque Public Schools spokesman Rigo Chavez said the suspension by
the school was based on a policy on controversial issues in the
classroom. 
  
Controversial issues can be discussed in the context of class
discussions, but once the discussion is completed the artwork or props
should be removed, Chavez said, adding that the matter was brought to
the attention of administrators by students who complained of the art
displays. 
  
Language arts teacher Allen Cooper and history teacher Geoffrey Barrett
told administrators that while they understood limitations on expressing
their own point of view in the classroom, they saw no law prohibiting the
students from self-expression. 
  
Cooper was able to return to class on Wednesday after an administrative
hearing a day earlier, while Barrett asked to reschedule his
administrative hearing for a later date while he sought out legal
counsel, Chavez said. 
  
In a similar incident, two teachers at a nearby school were suspended
without pay in March for refusing to take down their own anti-war signs
in their classrooms. 

___
http://www.mccmedia.com/mailman/listinfo/brin-l

in soviet amerika television watches you

http://www.tvweek.com/technology/030303isyourtv.html

Is Your Television Watching You? 
By Phillip Swann

Could the federal government find out what you're watching on TV? Even if
you're not the subject of a criminal investigation?

If you're a satellite TV or TiVo owner, the answer is yes, according to
legal experts and industry officials.

Under the USA Patriot Act, passed a month after the 9/11 terrorist
attack, the feds can force a noncable TV operator to disclose every show
you have watched. The government just has to say that the request is
related to a terrorism investigation, said Jay Stanley, a technology
expert for the American Civil Liberties Union. 

Under Section 215 of the Act, you don't even have to be the target of the
investigation. Plus, your TV provider is prohibited from informing you
that the feds have requested your personal information.

The language is very broad, Mr. Stanley said. It allows the FBI to
force a company to turn over the records of their customers. They don't
even need a reasonable suspicion of criminal behavior.

David Sobel, general counsel for the Electronic Privacy Information
Center, a Washington think tank, said the Cable Act of 1984 gives cable
operators greater protection against the Patriot Act. Cable companies do
not have to release an individual's records unless the feds show that the
person is the target of a criminal investigation. Even then, the
individual must be notified of the request, which he can then challenge
in court.

The Patriot Act does not override the Cable Act, Mr. Sobel said.

You couldn't blame the satellite TV industry for feeling a little
vulnerable these days. DirecTV, for instance, collects a large amount of
individual data, such as program package orders, pay-per-view orders and
even online purchases via the DirecTV-Wink interactive shopping service.
The Justice Department could ask DirecTV to disclose whether you
subscribe to Playboy or purchased Viagra if it would help an
investigation.

But Andy Wright, president of the Satellite Broadcasting Communications
Association, the industry's trade group, said he does not believe the
feds will make frivolous requests. 

They still have to issue a subpoena to get the data, he said. Even in
today's environment, I can't imagine a judge would approve a subpoena
that is not warranted.

However, the ACLU's Mr. Stanley said the Patriot Act is different because
the government can get the order from the special Foreign Intelligence
Surveillance Act court rather than a judicial court.

It's not like a subpoena. The standards are much weaker than [in] a
criminal case, Mr. Stanley said.

But Mr. Wright contended that satellite TV viewers should not be
concerned that they will be subjected to improper searches. The satellite
chief added he's not sure the federal government needs to give dish
owners the same protection as cable viewers.

I would have to study that more before supporting that, Mr. Wright
said. 
ANXIOUS TIMES

The Patriot Act, which Attorney General John Ashcroft said is crucial to
fighting terrorism in the United States, has scared many civil
libertarians. However, the possibility that the feds could use the law to
learn about your viewing habits has been overlooked until now.

The invasion of privacy might be well intentioned and perhaps even
necessary. However, there's also the danger that an overzealous team of
agents will abuse the law. In the spirit of the early patriots, all
Americans need to remain vigilant.#

___
http://www.mccmedia.com/mailman/listinfo/brin-l

I Should Not Be Allowed To Say The Following Things

http://www.theonion.com/onion3912/i_should_not_be.html

As Americans, we have a right to question our government and its actions.
However, while there is a time to criticize, there is also a time to
follow in complacent silence. And that time is now.

It's one thing to question our leaders in the days leading up to a war.
But it is another thing entirely to do it during a war. Once the blood of
young men starts to spill, it is our duty as citizens not to challenge
those responsible for spilling that blood. We must remove the boxing
gloves and put on the kid gloves. That is why, in this moment of crisis,
I should not be allowed to say the following things about America:

Why do we purport to be fighting in the name of liberating the Iraqi
people when we have no interest in violations of human rightsas
evidenced by our habit of looking the other way when they occur in China,
Saudi Arabia, Indonesia, Syria, Burma, Libya, and countless other
countries? Why, of all the brutal regimes that regularly violate human
rights, do we only intervene militarily in Iraq? Because the violation of
human rights is not our true interest here. We just say it is as a
convenient means of manipulating world opinion and making our cause seem
more just.

That is exactly the sort of thing I should not say right now.

This also is not the time to ask whether diplomacy was ever given a
chance. Or why, for the last 10 years, Iraq has been our sworn archenemy,
when during the 15 years preceding it we traded freely in armaments and
military aircraft with the evil and despotic Saddam Hussein. This is the
kind of question that, while utterly valid, should not be posed right
now.

And I certainly will not point out our rapid loss of interest in the
establishment of democracy in Afghanistan once our fighting in that
country was over. We sure got out of that place in a hurry once it became
clear that the problems were too complex to solve with cruise missiles.

That sort of remark will simply have to wait until our boys are safely
back home.

Here's another question I won't ask right now: Could this entire
situation have been avoided in the early 1990s had then-U.S. ambassador
to Iraq April Glaspie not been given sub rosa instructions by the Bush
Administration to soft-pedal a cruel dictator? Such a question would be
tantamount to sedition while our country engages in bloody conflict. Just
think how hurtful that would be to our military morale. I know I couldn't
fight a war knowing that was the talk back home.

Is this, then, the appropriate time for me to ask if Operation Iraqi
Freedom is an elaborate double-blind, sleight-of-hand misdirection ploy
to con us out of inconvenient civil rights through Patriot Acts I and II?
Should I wonder whether this war is an elaborate means of distracting the
country while its economy bucks and lurches toward the brink of a
full-blown depression? No and no.

True patriots know that a price of freedom is periodic submission to the
will of our leadersespecially when the liberties granted us by the
Constitution are at stake. What good is our right to free speech if our
soldiers are too demoralized to defend that right, thanks to disparaging
remarks made about their commander-in-chief by the Dixie Chicks?

When the Founding Fathers authored the Constitution that sets forth our
nation's guiding principles, they made certain to guarantee us individual
rights and freedoms. How dare we selfishly lay claim to those liberties
at the very moment when our nation is in crisis, when it needs us to be
our most selfless? We shame the memory of Thomas Jefferson by daring to
mention Bush's outright lies about satellite photos that supposedly prove
Iraq is developing nuclear weapons.

At this difficult time, President Bush needs my support. Defense
Secretary Donald Rumsfeld needs my support. General Tommy Franks needs my
support. It is not my function as a citizen in a participatory democracy
to question our leaders. And to exercise my constitutional rightnay,
dutyto do so would be un-American.

___
http://www.mccmedia.com/mailman/listinfo/brin-l

Re: Question for those who are anti-war . . .

2003-04-03 Thread Sonja van Baardwijk

Erik Reuter wrote:

On Wed, Apr 02, 2003 at 07:31:45PM +0200, Sonja van Baardwijk wrote:

 

No matter what you percieved as fact it still is no reason whatsoever
to not be polite. If you wanne make it personal and fight it out
dirty, take it off-list. On-list we are nice to each other and give on
another the benefit of the doubt. Well, if that is impossible we at
least try to be civillised. You were none of those, hence my comment.
   

Your comment, Sonja, was an underhanded attempt to chastise Gautam,
definitely critical of him, not his argument, since you didn't
even discuss his argument.
Whatever. If it makes you feel better.

Sonja
GCU: No gain.
___
http://www.mccmedia.com/mailman/listinfo/brin-l

RE: Question for those who are anti-war . . .

 From: Dan Minette [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]
 
  America just doesn't things like this.
 
 Like what?  Overthrow dictatorships that have invaded another 
 country and
 have the potential to destabilize the world?  What about the 
 Balkans?  That
 had no basis in UN resolutions at all.  Yes, France and 
 Germany supported
 our actions, but I'd argue that's becasue we were solving 
 their problem for them.
 
 I've understood and made arguements against going in now.  What's best
 overall is a difficult call, IMHO.  But, I cannot see 
 overthrowing Hussein as immoral.

Sorry, I didn't explain myself very well because I didn't want to repeat
what I had already posted a month or so ago.

I'm not saying this war is moral or immoral.  My point was that in the major
conflicts of the last 75 years or so (since WWI) the US hasn't started the
wars.  The bad guys did.  But the US got involved and finished it (well,
in most cases).  That's what makes me uncomfortable about invading Iraq: the
US definitely started this.  Sure, it was in response to Hussein's actions.
I'm not denying that.  But we fired the first shots.  In my (admittedly)
naive world view prior to 2 weeks ago, the United States didn't do that.

(I know the arguments that this is a continuation of what was started in
1991 but I'm not sure I buy that.)

However, Hussein has to go.  I've got no problem with that.  He's a bad guy.
And the world will be a better place without him.  (Which, hopefully, it
already is.  I think he's dead.  Or seriously injured.)  And the Iraqi
people will be better off without him.   It just makes me uncomfortable to
have to do it this way.

 - jmh
___
http://www.mccmedia.com/mailman/listinfo/brin-l

RE: You know what would be cool?

 From: Deborah Harrell [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]
 
 Still, I might go hunt a game up this summer - even
 horses can't supply that thrill of foiling the
 D'Master's evil plan of annihilation!  ;)

That's the spirit!  Go get those bad guys!

 - jmh
___
http://www.mccmedia.com/mailman/listinfo/brin-l

Re: Brin: The Next Big Thing: Re: Peter Arnett has negative effecton ratings

On 2 Apr 2003 at 23:52, John D. Giorgis wrote:

 US to fuel their economic growth and prevent the economic collapse
 that might spell the end of the Communist Party there.   Russia,

 reconciliation with the West, not opposition. Moreover, Russia is a
 dying country of declining population and a vast, underpopulated and
 resource-rich territory right on China's border, which it has long
 suspected that the Chinese have strategic ambitions for.

 As for the rest of your proposed coalition, the Malaysian regime is
 founded upon the principle of oppressing their ethnic-Chinese majority
 in favor of their ethnic-Malay minority.   The Chinese and Malaysians
 simply hate each other, and indeed have an ongoing territorial dispute
 in the Spratly's.  In the near and mid-terms, the odds of a

To me those are telling words. Yes, China is currently reliant on 
trade. Currently has border disputes with countries which repress a 
chinese minority. And have long borders with an underpopulated 
resource-rich country.

That's precisely WHY I'm afraid they'll turn expansionist.

Andy
Dawn Falcon

___
http://www.mccmedia.com/mailman/listinfo/brin-l

Re: Brin Calls for an Attack on Riyadh Re: Brin: David Frum on theWar Plans

On 2 Apr 2003 at 22:35, Deborah Harrell wrote:

 This is NOT the same as calling for *actual* attack on
 Saudi Arabia!

Which incidently I'd back in a heartbeat.

Andy
Dawn Falcon

___
http://www.mccmedia.com/mailman/listinfo/brin-l

Re: Details of The Bet Re: Br!n: Re: Peter Arnett has negativeeffect on ratings

On 2 Apr 2003 at 21:56, John D. Giorgis wrote:

 At 12:54 AM 4/3/2003 +0100 Andrew Crystall wrote:
 On 2 Apr 2003 at 17:40, Adam C. Lipscomb wrote:
 
  Gautam wrote:
   --- Andrew Crystall [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote:
I give you less than 20 to crash and burn. In
spectacular fashion.
I'll bet cash.
Andy
  
   Taken.  How much, and what are the conditions?  I
   never turn down free money.
  
  Same here - I'd be a fool not to help part a sucker from his hard
  earned money.
 
 Well, think about the bet. I'm NOT about to bet US$ am I...
 
 Well, the US Dollar is the closest thing we have to an international
 currency.   Moreover, there is a significantly greater likelihood that
 US$'s will be around to make payment in twenty years' time than there
 is of the British Pound.

You've utterly, utterly missed the point I was making there you 
know...

Andy
Dawn Falcon

___
http://www.mccmedia.com/mailman/listinfo/brin-l

Re: in soviet amerika television watches you

On 3 Apr 2003 at 7:42, The Fool wrote:

 http://www.tvweek.com/technology/030303isyourtv.html
 
 Is Your Television Watching You? 
 By Phillip Swann
 
 Could the federal government find out what you're watching on TV? Even
 if you're not the subject of a criminal investigation?
 
 If you're a satellite TV or TiVo owner, the answer is yes, according
 to legal experts and industry officials.

Then why the  does the industry insist on using it's stupid 
methods for viewer figures still.

GAH.

(sorry, long-held annoyance there)

Andy
Dawn Falcon

___
http://www.mccmedia.com/mailman/listinfo/brin-l

Re: Impressions almost two weeks into the war

2003-04-03 Thread Matt Grimaldi

Bryon Daly wrote:
 
(snip)
 Beyond what comes out of Hollywood
 about Vietnam, I find myself
 largely uniformed about that whole war.
  ^
 

Couldn't you get another one in a smaller size?  :-)

-- Matt
___
http://www.mccmedia.com/mailman/listinfo/brin-l

Re: Question for those who are anti-war . . .

2003-04-03 Thread Julia Thompson

John D. Giorgis wrote:
 
 At 11:34 PM 4/2/2003 -0600 Horn, John wrote:
  From: Kevin Street [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]
 
  The thing that bothers me so much here is that this time it's
  *America*
  who's the aggressor. The one major power that has (almost)
  never acted in an
  imperialistic manner, the country that has helped other
  nations far more
  than it has harmed them. A country that has, up until now, been an
  inspiration and model for the world.
 
  Yes, we expect more of the United States than other countries. And the
  United States should expect more of itself.
 
 Yes, I think I've said before that this is exactly my biggest problem with
 the whole thing.  America just doesn't things like this.  Or at least that
 what I've always thought.  Not in this century, er, last century.
 Unfortunately, that's where we find ourselves.
 
 Doesn't imperialism require the formation of a colony?

In effect, isn't that what a lot of US-based (or at least US-founded)
companies do by exporting production, etc.?  We're not *politically*
colonizing, but could this arguably be termed economic colonizing?

Julia
___
http://www.mccmedia.com/mailman/listinfo/brin-l

Re: brin: the three laws of robotis are evil, whytheymustbeeradicated

2003-04-03 Thread Julia Thompson

G. D. Akin wrote:

 I just finished James Gunn's Isaac Asimov: The Foundations of Science
 Fiction (Revised edition) and even in it there's not much about robots
 going bad.  Most of it is focused on the mystery and solving it in the
 robot stories, especially the three very good novels.  Mr. Gunn's book is
 well worth the read.

nitpick
It's actually *Dr.* Gunn, I believe; he's a prof at the University of
Kansas.
/nitpick

And I haven't picked up and read anything of his yet that I felt *wasn't*
worth the read.  :)  (I'll be looking out for that one, though -- thanks
for the recommend!.)

Julia
___
http://www.mccmedia.com/mailman/listinfo/brin-l

Re: You know what would be cool?

2003-04-03 Thread Julia Thompson

Deborah Harrell wrote:
 
 --- Horn, John [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote:
  That would make it tough.  Are you done with your
  residency and all that
  good stuff?  That is definitely more than a full
  time job.  I dropped out of
  gaming for several years after college and really
  missed it.  Felt there was
  something missing but couldn't find another group to
  get involved in.
  Finally I stumbled into a group via a signup sheet
  at a local comic shop.  I
  sort of took over the group and we've been playing
  ever since.
 
  So there's always hope, if you want to go back.
 
 Finished residency in '91; I suppose I _could_ check
 out the local scene as you did (hurrah for
 initiative!), 

So, what did you roll?

duck

Julia
___
http://www.mccmedia.com/mailman/listinfo/brin-l

Canada

2003-04-03 Thread J.D. Giorgis

atop a traffic light.

The crowd cheered when the man waved the Iraqi flag,
and booed the U.S. flag, Mr. Carpenter said. Then the
protester doused the U.S. flag in kerosene.

It went up in a puff of smoke and flames, and the
crowd went wild. They were all cheering, said Mr.
Carpenter, whose 24-year-old son, a U.S. Marine, was
sent to retrieve bodies of Americans killed in the
2001 terrorist bombing of USS Cole in Yemen.

Mr. Carpenter tried to explain the anti-American
displays to his children. I said to my kids, 'These
folks disagree with our government, not you
personally.'

As they crossed the border into the United States,
cheers went up in the bus. We were very, very happy
to get back home, Mr. Nadeau said.

Diplomacy scores big as hockey row ends amicably

http://www.globeandmail.com/servlet/ArticleNews/TPStory/LAC/20030403/UHOCKN//?query=Brockton

By INGRID PERITZ
With a report from Shawn McCarthy in Ottawa
Thursday, April 3, 2003 - Page A14

MONTREAL -- The face of the polite Canadian resurfaced
yesterday for a group of U.S. peewee hockey players.

The children had run into a barrage of anti-U.S.
hostility during a recent tournament in Montreal.

One of the hockey families was inundated with calls of
support and sympathy from across Canada after reports
about the Americans' soured trip north.

The response has been overwhelming, Bill Carpenter,
father of two peewee players, said from Brockton,
south of Boston.

The booing and insults that the 11- and 12-year-old
players on the Broxton Boxers team had witnessed on a
four-day trip to Montreal last month were another sign
of uneasy Canada-U.S. relations over the war against
Iraq.

In the face of frosty bilateral relations, Deputy
Prime Minister John Manley will head to Washington
next week to find ways to best manage new U.S. rules
that could clog border crossings.

Mr. Manley denied yesterday that his trip is to mend
fences, despite complaints from U.S. Ambassador Paul
Cellucci last week that the U.S. administration is
disappointed and upset with the Liberal government's
decision not to participate in the war on Iraq.

Mr. Manley said the key issue for him will be to find
ways to lessen the impact of border rules that will
require people to check in at each country's customs
house as they enter and exit the United States and
Canada.

In Montreal yesterday, Mr. Cellucci somewhat softened
his criticism of Canada, focusing on the need for both
countries to work on improving their relationship.

Speaking to reporters after a speech to the Quebec
Electrical Industry Association, Mr. Cellucci said the
countries' differences would cause some short-term
strain but added repeatedly that Canada is indirectly
doing more to support the U.S.-led military campaign
in Iraq than most of the 49 countries in the existing
war coalition.

I had a message to deliver last week, and I did it.
We also have work to do, and we need to focus on the
work.

Mr. Cellucci called the peewee hockey team's
experience unfortunate, but he said the events did
not represent the views of most Canadians.

Several players on the Brockton Boxers team witnessed
the burning of a U.S. flag and the booing of their
national anthem, and were insulted by an Ontario
peewee team that competed against them, according to
parents.

The children's bus, clearly identifiable as American
because of its logo, was met with rude gestures on the
street.

I've travelled throughout Quebec; I've travelled
throughout Canada. There's a deep reservoir of
goodwill between the two countries, Mr. Cellucci
said.

I think it's unfortunate when things like that
happen.

I know that emotions are running high relative to
this war in Iraq. So I hope that that kind of
behaviour would not continue.

Many parents of the U.S. team members swore they would
never return to Canada. Mr. Carpenter said he is ready
to reconsider.

One telephone call he received yesterday was an
invitation from a Montreal minor-hockey association to
the Massachusetts players to return for a second --
and presumably more amiable -- matchup. I've received
calls from many Canadians who said they regretted what
happened to us, and they wanted us to know that not
all Canadians felt the same way, Mr. Carpenter said.

They wanted me to know that a lot of Canadians still
support Americans, even if they don't support the war.

They don't feel ill will.

This has changed my thinking.

Organizers of Montreal's large antiwar demonstrations
said their intention was to target the Bush
administration's war on Iraq, not individual
Americans.

=
---
John D. Giorgis - [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Tonight I have a message for the brave and oppressed people of Iraq:
Your enemy is not surrounding your country your enemy is ruling your
country. And the day he and his regime are removed from power will be
the day of your liberation. -George W. Bush 1/29

Re: Question for those who are anti-war . . .

--- Jean-Marc Chaton [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote:
 I'm interested in links to support your point 2. To
 my knowledge France
 hasn't got a particular link or lever  with Turkey.
 Germany has, though,
 due to historial, sociological (large part of its
 population is Turkish)
 , and economical. But I can't stop thinking Turkey,
 at least  those
 whose got the last word in Turkey, i.e. high rank
 military, has and
 always had their own agenda in the region.

France has the same lever it has with Eastern Europe -
the ability to deny them EU membership.  I,
personally, think that if the Turks think that France
is going to let a non-white, non-Christian country
into the EU ever, they're deluding themselves, but
they seem to have persuaded themselves that it's
possible, and are willing to do almost anything to get
it.  Since the vote was going to be close anyways the
threats (reported by Michael Ledeen among others)
would certainly have been enough to sway things.  Of
course, Chirac's threats against Eastern Europe all by
themselves were the act of an enemy country, not a
friendly one.
 
 
  
  What the French government, in its quest to attack
 the
  United States in this affair, didn't realize is
 that
  American politics are not like French politics. 
 What
  the people think in the United States has a real
  influence on foreign policy.  And the people,
 right
  now, are pissed at France.  That's not going to go
  away.  An entire generation of politically active
  Americans who came of age during this crisis are
 going
  to think of France as an enemy of the United
 States. 
  That is damage that may never be healed.
 
 Do they consider Germany as an enemy ?

 Jean-Marc

No, but I think that's correct.  Germany is doing this
in part because Schroeder dislikes the US (and Fischer
is an ex-terrorist, for goodness sake -  I don't see
why people don't make a bigger deal of that) but far
more so because the German people seem to have become
devoutly pacifist.  Cleo apparently has a sense of
humor.  They oppose any and all wars - they don't seem
motivated by a particular desire to attack the US. 
France clearly is - no one could argue that France,
which is currently intervening in Africa to protect
its cocoa crop (for example) is at all a pacifist
country.  Germany is opposed to war.  France is
opposed to the United States.  There's a clear
distinction there.  France rejected a compromise
resolution _before Iraq did_.  It clearly voted in bad
faith on 1441.  It voted against a UN Resolution
_condemning Iraqi human rights abuses_.  It
consistently undermined and weakened the sanctions
regime.  It voted to declare Iraq free of WMD in 1998.
 Now, unless you want to posit a deep and abiding
French affection for Saddam Hussein (possible, but I'm
genuinely trying to be generous) the most logical
explanation for this is a coherent French plan to
weaken the United States as much as possible.  That si
what your enemies do to you, not your friends.

Gautam

__
Do you Yahoo!?
Yahoo! Tax Center - File online, calculators, forms, and more
http://tax.yahoo.com
___
http://www.mccmedia.com/mailman/listinfo/brin-l

general purpose tools (i.e. computers)

http://www.freedom-to-tinker.com/archives/000350.html

I have written before about the danger posed by the Super-DMCA's ban on
concealing the origin or destination of communication. I want to turn
your attention now to a much more egregious provision of these bills --
the ban on devices and information. 

Here is the relevant portion of the MPAA's model legislative language:

Any person commits an offense if he knowingly:
...
(4) possesses, uses, prepares, distributes, sells, gives, transfers or
offers, promotes or advertises for sale, use or distribution any:
...
(ii) material, including hardware, cables, tools, data, computer software
or other information or equipment ... for use in the manufacture,
assembly or development of an unlawful access device; ...



The term at the end, manufacture, assembly or development of an unlawful
access device, is defined this way:

To [...] or modify, alter, program or reprogram any instrument, device,
machine, equipment, technology or software so that it is capable of
defeating or circumventing any technology, device or software used by the
provider, owner or licensee of a communication service, or of any data,
audio or video programs or transmissions, to protect any such
communication, data, audio or video services, programs or transmissions
from unauthorized receipt, interception, acquisition, access, decryption,
disclosure, communication, transmission or re-transmission, or to
knowingly assist others in those activities.



Note the breadth of this language -- to be in violation, the device need
only be *capable* of circumventing a measure that somebody uses to
protect their data from unauthorized receipt, interception, acquisition,
access, decryption, disclosure, communication, transmission or
re-transmission. 

This is stunning in its overbreadth. Any device that is even *capable* of
illegal uses is banned, and even *information* that could be used to
build such a device is banned.

This would appear to make most computer security research illegal, since
it would be illegal to even talk about how somebody might to try defeat a
security measure. As a computer security researcher, I consider that a
big problem. In this case, though, that problem is small potatoes
compared to the greater harm this part of the bill would do.

As a thought experiment, let's try applying this approach to the
regulation of non-technological goods. Imagine that it was illegal to
make, use, or distribute material ... or information that was capable
of being used in a violent attack on another person. 

In such a world, virtually all knives would be illegal. Ditto for
screwdrivers or any other pointy objects. Hammers are out, too, along
with all other blunt, heavy objects, including even rocks. Vehicles are
probably out too, since they are capable of being used to attack someone.
I could go on, but you get the picture.

Even information about how to make or use any of these dangerous devices
would be banned. 

Last week I asked my class if they could think of any technological tools
that are capable of only illegal uses, or of only legal uses. They were
hard pressed to think of any. That's the nature of tools -- they're
designed to be flexible and to admit a wide variety of uses. To ban every
tool that might possibly be used illegally, and to ban even information
about such tools, is simply madness.


___
http://www.mccmedia.com/mailman/listinfo/brin-l

Re: New Computer But Still Not Happy

2003-04-03 Thread Jean-Marc Chaton

* J. van Baardwijk [Wed, 02/04/2003 at 22:58 +0200]
 At 17:29 02-04-03 +0100, William Goodall wrote:
 
 It's the money, really. The 256/64 Kb package is considerably cheaper 
 than cable, and other packages (512/256 and better) are all more 
 expensive than cable. Cable costs EUR 49.95 per month, which I find to be 
 a bit (too) much for what I use Internet for (I'll be paying EUR 27.95 
 per month for ADSL in the first year, EUR 34.95 after that).
 
 I pay (about) 36  (£24.99) per month for 512/256 ADSL
 
 Over here that would cost EUR 50 to 55 per month.

I recently changed from Wanadoo 43 EUR/Month to Free 30 EUR/M for a
512/128


-- 
Jean-Marc
___
http://www.mccmedia.com/mailman/listinfo/brin-l

Re: Question for those who are anti-war . . .

--- Jean-Marc Chaton [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote:
 I think France, as the broad majority of the
 council, was agreeing with
 the necessity of a verifiable set of compliance
 tests, with the presence
 of a deadline (which length was under discussion)
 and the presence of
 the threat of military action.  This was a
 considerable step forward.
 The thing France didn't want was the automaticity of
 the start of a war
 as a mere consequence of a grammatical conjunction.
 France wanted the
 security council, i.e. humans beeings to convene
 formally and declare
 the start of military action.

If that were true, it would have proposed some of
those tests.  Instead it rejected the tests proposed
by the British unconditionally.  If France's position
really was in favor of putting pressure on Iraq, why
did it:
1. Oppose all attempts by the US to do so? and
2. Not send its own troops to the Middle East to
increase the pressure?
At least one major reason that Saddam didn't cooperate
was France's decision to split the council and weaken
all attempts to put pressure on him.  If France's
intentions were what you say, it's actions would have
been essentially the exact opposite of what they were.

 But the United States rejected it outright,
 immediately, even before
 Iraq did.  

Because we, correctly, believed that France was
negotiating in bad faith.  France lied to us about
1441.  It opposed every attempt to put pressure on
Iraq.  There was no reason - none at all - to believe
anything other than that this was yet another attempt
to defer pressure into the future, so that when the US
finally did lose patience and invade, the American and
Iraqi casualties would be still higher.
 
 I still think it was a valid point of view, even if
 one disagrees, I mean
 not indefensible. Are you sure you don't confuse
 yourself with Germany
 position (no war no matter what) ?
 

 Jean-Marc

Actually, Germany's point of view was far more
defensible.  Germany essentially was saying - no war
under any circumstances, we don't care, we're
pacifists.  France was basically saying - no war to
topple a genocidal dictator with weapons of mass
destruction who sponsors terrorists against the United
States, but wars to protect, say, French economic
interests in Africa, those are okay.  One of the two
positions is foolish, the other malign.

Gautam

__
Do you Yahoo!?
Yahoo! Tax Center - File online, calculators, forms, and more
http://tax.yahoo.com
___
http://www.mccmedia.com/mailman/listinfo/brin-l

Re: Question for those who are anti-war . . .

- Original Message -
From: Gautam Mukunda [EMAIL PROTECTED]
To: Killer Bs Discussion [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Sent: Thursday, April 03, 2003 10:25 AM
Subject: Re: Question for those who are anti-war . . .

 --- Jean-Marc Chaton [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote:
  I'm interested in links to support your point 2. To
  my knowledge France
  hasn't got a particular link or lever  with Turkey.
  Germany has, though,
  due to historial, sociological (large part of its
  population is Turkish)
  , and economical. But I can't stop thinking Turkey,
  at least  those
  whose got the last word in Turkey, i.e. high rank
  military, has and
  always had their own agenda in the region.

 France has the same lever it has with Eastern Europe -
 the ability to deny them EU membership.  I,
 personally, think that if the Turks think that France
 is going to let a non-white, non-Christian country
 into the EU ever, they're deluding themselves, but
 they seem to have persuaded themselves that it's
 possible, and are willing to do almost anything to get
 it.

If Turkey joined the EU, then it would have overwheming repercussions,
right?  Wouldn't Turkish citizens have the same right to travel, work, and
live anywhere in Europe, passing through customs with a wave like I've seen
other EU members do now?  IMHO, that would be a real step forward for
Europe, transforming it into a multicultural association.  Given that, I'd
guess that it would be a very difficult step to get past the public.

Dan M.

___
http://www.mccmedia.com/mailman/listinfo/brin-l

Re: Question for those who are anti-war . . .


--- Dan Minette [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote:
 If Turkey joined the EU, then it would have
 overwheming repercussions,
 right?  Wouldn't Turkish citizens have the same
 right to travel, work, and
 live anywhere in Europe, passing through customs
 with a wave like I've seen
 other EU members do now?  IMHO, that would be a real
 step forward for
 Europe, transforming it into a multicultural
 association.  Given that, I'd
 guess that it would be a very difficult step to get
 past the public.
 
 Dan M.

Well, _every_ step on the EU is difficult to get past
the public.  Pretty consistently whenever the EU is
put up for a public vote, it loses.  It's only when
the governments overrule public opinion that it ever
goes anywhere.  But yes, that's definitely true, and
one of the many reasons that it's just never going to
happen.

Now, a different question is if Turkey should be part
of the EU.  Were I the Poles (for example) I would ask
myself why I would want my economy run from Brussels. 
Look at what a good job they're doing for France and
Germany, after all :-)  So this could well be a
blessing in disguise for the countries involved.

Gautam

__
Do you Yahoo!?
Yahoo! Tax Center - File online, calculators, forms, and more
http://tax.yahoo.com
___
http://www.mccmedia.com/mailman/listinfo/brin-l

Br!n, Br1n, Br|n, Br'n, etc.

2003-04-03 Thread Medievalbk

So many bets are being placed and robotic laws are being broken..

Don't wear the poor man out before I get to meet him this weekend.

William Taylor

Now where's my Sony camera
___
http://www.mccmedia.com/mailman/listinfo/brin-l

Re: Why I'm pissed off right now

2003-04-03 Thread johnnita42

--- In [EMAIL PROTECTED], Miller, Jeffrey [EMAIL PROTECTED] 
wrote:
 My home was shot last night.
 
 Not once.
 
 Three times.
 
 And my car.
 
 And.. my FUCKING CAT was killed.
 
 Why?
 
 You tell me.
 
 Three bullet holes, one in each Bring Our Soldiers Home sign.
 
 One bullet hole in my car, right through the No Iraq War sign.
 
 The cat?  strangled with a red, white, and blue ribbon.

I am deeply disturbed to hear this.  Anita is amazingly pissed off at 
the whole thing.  I really hope they catch the people who did this 
and hold them accountable.

The media definitely needs to hear about this.

 - jmh


___
http://www.mccmedia.com/mailman/listinfo/brin-l

Re: Brin Calls for an Attack on Riyadh

Andrew Crystall wrote: 
  
 This is NOT the same as calling for *actual* attack on 
 Saudi Arabia! 
  
 Which incidently I'd back in a heartbeat. 
 
So you would support that the USA coalition launched 
some scuds against Mecca or the Islamic Temple over 
the rock in Jerusalem, and pretend that they were 
launched by Saddam? :-) 
 
Alberto Monteiro 
  
___
http://www.mccmedia.com/mailman/listinfo/brin-l

Re: Question for those who are anti-war . . .

Gautam Mukunda wrote: 
  
 No, but I think that's correct.  Germany is doing this 
 in part because Schroeder dislikes the US (and Fischer 
 is an ex-terrorist, for goodness sake -  I don't see 
 why people don't make a bigger deal of that) 
 
Because an ex-terrorist is not a terrorist. Lots of 
the Ministers of the current gov.br are ex-terrorists 
too. 
 
Alberto Monteiro 
 
___
http://www.mccmedia.com/mailman/listinfo/brin-l

Re: Question for those who are anti-war . . .

On Thu, Apr 03, 2003 at 02:41:51PM -0300, Alberto Monteiro wrote:

 Because an ex-terrorist is not a terrorist. Lots of the Ministers of  
 the current gov.br are ex-terrorists too. 


Brazilian Ministers go around scaring former's and previously's and used
to be's?


-- 
Erik Reuter [EMAIL PROTECTED]   http://erikreuter.com/
___
http://www.mccmedia.com/mailman/listinfo/brin-l

Re: Question for those who are anti-war . . .

JDG wrote:
I developed that statistic myself, and AFAIK, I'm the only person that 
I've
seen use it. :)
Russell Chapman replied:
It can't be too wrong, based on the size of the deployed force and the US 
population...
Hmmm, now that you mention it, it may have only been here that I've seen 
that number.  Let me do a quick bit of research...

According to the 2000 census,
http://www.census.gov/main/www/cen2000.html
the population of the U.S. is 281,421,906.
I've seen different numbers for the number of U.S. troops involved.  I 
couldn't find anything definitive in a quick Google search, but the numbers 
I remember hearing are between 240,000 and 250,000.

JDG's original estimate is 1 in 1000, which is 0.1% of the U.S. population.
If we assume 245,000 troops with the census number above, we get 0.09%.  
That's fairly close to JDG's number.  If you go a couple of extra decimal 
places, it's 0.0871%.  That's equivalent to about 1 in every 1148.  Allowing 
for the fact that JDG's stat was an estimate, I'd say it was a pretty good 
one.

Reggie Bautista

_
The new MSN 8: advanced junk mail protection and 2 months FREE*  
http://join.msn.com/?page=features/junkmail

___
http://www.mccmedia.com/mailman/listinfo/brin-l

Re: brin: the three laws of robotis are evil, why they must beeradicated

From: J. van Baardwijk [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Subject: Re: brin: the three laws of robotis are evil, why they must be 
eradicated
Date: Tue, 01 Apr 2003 22:34:01 +0200

At 13:24 31-03-03 -0800, David Brin wrote:

Perhaps, but then the laws are actually designed for a different
specific purpose, that is to prevent the robots from doing things
like killing all humans, or becoming bloody dictators.  The laws
are to protect humans, not to harm robots.
And my point is that this is the wrong approach.  Once they become smart 
they will become lawyers and interpret the 'laws' any way they wish.
Oh well, in that case there is always the course of action that Shakespeare 
mentions in one of his plays (Henry VI, Part II, Act IV, Scene II)...   
GRIN
Nay, that I mean to do!  Is not this a lamentable thing, that of the skin of 
an innocent lamb should be made parchment?  That parchment, being scribbled 
over, should undo a man?  Some say the bee stings but I say 'tis the bee's 
wax; for I did but seal once to a thing, and I was never mine own man since.

Know your classics, people!

Was in the play, and a few others, in high school and college.  :-)

Jeroen Shakespeare Rocks! van Baardwijk

*grin*
Jon
_
Add photos to your messages with MSN 8. Get 2 months FREE*.  
http://join.msn.com/?page=features/featuredemail

___
http://www.mccmedia.com/mailman/listinfo/brin-l

Re: Question for those who are anti-war . . .

Erik Reuter wrote: 
  
 Because an ex-terrorist is not a terrorist. Lots of the 
 Ministers of the current gov.br are ex-terrorists too.  
  
 Brazilian Ministers go around scaring former's and 
 previously's and used to be's? 
  
I don't understand what you are talking about. 
 
And probably you wouldn't know if they did :-P 
 
Alberto Monteiro 
 
___
http://www.mccmedia.com/mailman/listinfo/brin-l

Re: Details of The Bet Re: Br!n: Re: Peter Arnett has negativeeffect on ratings

From: John D. Giorgis [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Reply-To: Killer Bs Discussion [EMAIL PROTECTED]
To: Killer Bs Discussion [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Subject: Details of The Bet Re: Br!n: Re: Peter Arnett has negative effect 
on ratings
Date: Wed, 02 Apr 2003 21:56:40 -0500

At 12:54 AM 4/3/2003 +0100 Andrew Crystall wrote:
On 2 Apr 2003 at 17:40, Adam C. Lipscomb wrote:

 Gautam wrote:
  --- Andrew Crystall [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote:
   I give you less than 20 to crash and burn. In
   spectacular fashion.
   I'll bet cash.
   Andy

  Taken.  How much, and what are the conditions?  I
  never turn down free money.

 Same here - I'd be a fool not to help part a sucker from his hard
 earned money.

Well, think about the bet. I'm NOT about to bet US$ am I...
Well, the US Dollar is the closest thing we have to an international
currency.   Moreover, there is a significantly greater likelihood that
US$'s will be around to make payment in twenty years' time than there is of
the British Pound.
That's why I'm proposing measuring our bet in 2003 US $'s, and then making
whatever exchange adjustments we need to twenty years from now to settle
up.   Basically, the US$ is a unit of measure - the bet can be settled by
any other currency of equivalent value.
So, there you have it: US$100 as valued on 4/1/2003, payable by me to you
if another country supercedes the US in power by 4/1/2023, or payable by
you to me on 4/1/2023 if it has not happened by that date.
Do you accept the terms?

For some reason, I'm reminded of the antiagathics vs. germanium as currency 
storyline from Cities in Flight by Blish.  Has anyone else read it?

Jon

_
MSN 8 helps eliminate e-mail viruses. Get 2 months FREE*.  
http://join.msn.com/?page=features/virus

___
http://www.mccmedia.com/mailman/listinfo/brin-l

Yahoo Groups is Evil and Must Be Eradicated

OK.  Is Yahoo Groups totally broken?  Every so often I miss an email message
from the list.  (Actually, this happens more often than I'd like.)  If I
notice it, I'll go over to Yahoo Groups to see what I missed.  Yesterday,
the post in question was Jeffrey Miller's original post about his house and
cat.  I tried to forward the message to myself repeatedly and never got the
message.  Then I tried to respond via Yahoo Groups and it never showed up.

I know it's a remote list but this is ridiculous...

BTW, could someone possibly forward me that original post...

  - jmh

Yahoo Is Not My Friend Maru
___
http://www.mccmedia.com/mailman/listinfo/brin-l

Re: Details of The Bet Re: Br!n: Re: Peter Arnett has negativeeffect on ratings

- Original Message -
From: Jon Gabriel [EMAIL PROTECTED]
To: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Sent: Thursday, April 03, 2003 11:59 AM
Subject: Re: Details of The Bet Re: Br!n: Re: Peter Arnett has negative
effect on ratings

 For some reason, I'm reminded of the antiagathics vs. germanium as
currency
 storyline from Cities in Flight by Blish.  Has anyone else read it?

Yup, about 25 years ago. :-)

Dan M.

___
http://www.mccmedia.com/mailman/listinfo/brin-l

Re: Question for those who are anti-war . . .

On Thu, Apr 03, 2003 at 02:51:00PM -0300, Alberto Monteiro wrote:

 Erik Reuter wrote:

  Because an ex-terrorist is not a terrorist. Lots of the Ministers  
  of the current gov.br are ex-terrorists too.   
 
  Brazilian Ministers go around scaring former's and previously's and 
  used to be's?   

 I don't understand what you are talking about.

You previously interpreted A B where A=terrorist and B=killer to mean
someone who kills terrorists. So, if A=ex- and B=terrorist, the Alberto
interpretation should be someone who terrorizes ex'es.

-- 
Erik Reuter [EMAIL PROTECTED]   http://www.erikreuter.net/
___
http://www.mccmedia.com/mailman/listinfo/brin-l

Re: Question for those who are anti-war . . .

Erik Reuter wrote:
 
 I don't understand what you are talking about. 
  
 You previously interpreted A B where A=terrorist 
 and B=killer to mean someone who kills terrorists. 
 So, if A=ex- and B=terrorist, the Alberto 
 interpretation should be someone who terrorizes ex'es. 
 
Touche'. Time to wear my dumb hat again - twice this 
week :-( 
 
Alberto Monteiro 
  
___
http://www.mccmedia.com/mailman/listinfo/brin-l

Re: Easterbrook and TMQ Re: Impressions almost two weeks into the war

From: Julia Thompson [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Reply-To: Killer Bs Discussion [EMAIL PROTECTED]
To: Killer Bs Discussion [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Subject: Re: Easterbrook and TMQ Re: Impressions almost two weeks into the 
war
Date: Tue, 01 Apr 2003 18:31:11 -0600

Gautam Mukunda wrote:

 --- Julia Thompson [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote:
  OK, what this tells me is, if I ever own an NFL
  franchise, I ought to hire
  JDG to help me out with it, and if I ever own an MLB
  team, I ought to hire
  Gautam to help me out with it.  :)  (No interest in
  NBA, very little
  interest in NHL.)

Julia

 Only if you can't get Billy Beane or Paul DePodesta
 :-)
I didn't say *only* Gautam, but you'd be an asset in helping me figure out
who else to hire at the beginning.  :)
 Great article in this week's New York Times Magazine
 on Billy Beane, btw, by Michael Lewis (of Liar's
 Poker) apparently excepted from his new book on
 baseball (oh joy!).
Cool!  I'll try to remember to look for that.
I haven't looked yet, but if it's available online and you (or anyone else) 
would like it e-mailed just let me know.  I've been ill and will probably be 
spending less time at the computer over the next couple of weeks so there 
might be a small delay.

Jon

_
The new MSN 8: advanced junk mail protection and 2 months FREE*  
http://join.msn.com/?page=features/junkmail

___
http://www.mccmedia.com/mailman/listinfo/brin-l

Re: Canada

2003-04-03 Thread Jean-Louis Couturier

At 08:12 2003-04-03 -0800, John D. Giorgis wrote:
Canadians hurl abuse at U.S. hockey peewees

By INGRID PERITZ
Wednesday, April 2, 2003 - Page A1
Toronto Globe and Mail
http://www.globeandmail.com/servlet/ArticleNews/TPStory/LAC/20030402/UMASSN//?query=Brockton

MONTREAL -- A peewee hockey tournament in Montreal
became a trip into hostile territory for a busload of
Americans who say they encountered such fierce
anti-Americanism that they will think twice before
returning.
snip/

I can only feel ashamed that this has happened in the city I call home.
It's in thing to shout slogans and wave signs in fromt of the American
consulate. It's unacceptable to verbally (or any other way) abuse
children.
Diplomacy scores big as hockey row ends amicably

http://www.globeandmail.com/servlet/ArticleNews/TPStory/LAC/20030403/UHOCKN//?query=Brockton

By INGRID PERITZ
With a report from Shawn McCarthy in Ottawa
Thursday, April 3, 2003 - Page A14
MONTREAL -- The face of the polite Canadian resurfaced
yesterday for a group of U.S. peewee hockey players.
The children had run into a barrage of anti-U.S.
hostility during a recent tournament in Montreal.
One of the hockey families was inundated with calls of
support and sympathy from across Canada after reports
about the Americans' soured trip north.
snip/

There are ***holes everywhere. They should not be seen
as being representative of the population at large.
Jean-Louis Couturier
GSV Quite nice when met in person

___
http://www.mccmedia.com/mailman/listinfo/brin-l

Re: Question for those who are anti-war . . .

JDG wrote:

 Lastly, the total cost of the war is:
 Total Cost = Wait Costs + War Costs

 If we consider that War Costs is fixed, (...)
Alberto replied:
But it is *not* fixed. The USA coalition could
wait another 30 years, when the Iraqi population
would be all over 50 [all iq children would die
after 42 years of siege warfare], and the cost
of the war would decrease substantially
To the contrary, the cost would *increase* substantially.

42 years of siege warfare wouldn't be inexpensive any way you look at it...

Reggie Bautista

_
Add photos to your messages with MSN 8. Get 2 months FREE*.  
http://join.msn.com/?page=features/featuredemail

___
http://www.mccmedia.com/mailman/listinfo/brin-l

Some semi-good news

First off, I'm -completely- amazed at all of you for the emails offlist and the 
suggestions about what to do; I've been in a state of shock about all this, and as 
much as I'd like to express with eloquence how this has effected me, I'm still too 
close to the event to really process it.

At the neighborhood hardware store last night, getting new glass, the shopkeeper asked 
why I needed 3 panes of glass, and as I told him the story, he nodded and said that 2 
other homes in my neighborhood had  received similar treatment (funny, the cops never 
mentioned a string of these incidents..) I walked over and chatted with the other 
households, introduced myself, etc.  One woman had some china in.. well, whatever 
those special cabinets you china in are called.. broken by the shot; the rest of us 
just dug .22 rounds out of plaster or woodwork.  Getting home, I called the officer 
who gave me his contact number and left a message, asking for any uupdates or info 
about a possible string of incidents, etc.

This morning, I had a voicemail from the officer who I spoke with the day before, 
saying that they had caught the guy!  In what can only be described as a Law  Order 
moment, a person out walking thier dog saw a minivan/SUV driving fast through a nearby 
neighborhood, and called 911 and reported the plates.  A nearby patrol car took the 
call and stopped the vehicle, inside 3 teen boys and a loaded .22 rifle (/slightly/ 
illegal in and of itself)  They impounded the vehicle and hauled them down to the 
station, and one of them admitted to driving around, looking for windows and signs to 
shoot up (this is a residental neighborhood in Seattle, NOT rural farmland/suburbia).  
The others admitted as well, including killing the cat, and are, needless to say, in 
some serious hot water.  

The youngest is still a minor, and his parents have already contacted me and have 
offered to pay for -all- the damages (including whatever costs are associated with 
cremating Kira *and* the adoption/vet fees on a new cat!)  I've thanked them, and 
accepted their offer to make some amends;  their kid will be flippin' burgers all 
summer to cover the cost, they assure me (if he avoids juvie).  The charges against 
them for what amounts to vandalism are actually pretty minor, I'm told, compared to 
the weapons charge (loaded weapon in a vehicle, discharging a weapon within N yards of 
a school, some other stuff).  

I'm putting on my best face of forgiveness, and hoping that some change for the better 
comes into their lives from this, but I am still really shaken, and its going to take 
some time for me to really figure out how I feel.. anger?  frustration?  fear? 
loneliness?  They're all there, but muddled and mixed.  I'll be ok, though :)

-j-


___
http://www.mccmedia.com/mailman/listinfo/brin-l

RE: christian vultures circling iraq ready to strike

JMH wrote:
Evil is like beauty or great art: I know it when I see it.
You know it when you see it, but *why* do you know it when you see it?  Is 
it somehow innate or is because you grew up in a culture suffused with 
Judeo-Christian values?  Does our sense of right and wrong, or good and 
evil, come from the culture in which we grew up, or from our genes?

Reggie Bautista
Not Answering, Just Asking Maru
_
Protect your PC - get McAfee.com VirusScan Online  
http://clinic.mcafee.com/clinic/ibuy/campaign.asp?cid=3963

___
http://www.mccmedia.com/mailman/listinfo/brin-l

RE: I hate inches! :-(

Someone wrote:
I'm definitely well aware of that one being a major Hero System fan.  So 
by
Jackson's conversion that would be 1 inch = 6 feet...
Damon replied:
Which works out to 1/72 scale (or, 1in=72in). Perfect for 20mm figures (too 
bad no-one makes superhero figures in this scale...)
Lego people actually work amazingly well on hex maps.

Both my wife Anita and a good friend of ours named Mike are avid Lego 
collectors, and let me tell you, that makes playing Champions with them 
really interesting.  I have yet to see a Champions character that couldn't 
be represented fairly easily with Legos.  The tie-in possibilities are 
endless...

Reggie Bautista

_
Tired of spam? Get advanced junk mail protection with MSN 8. 
http://join.msn.com/?page=features/junkmail

___
http://www.mccmedia.com/mailman/listinfo/brin-l

Re: Some semi-good news

Jeffrey Miller wrote: 
 
 their kid will be flippin' burgers all summer to cover 
 the cost, (...) 
 
Yikes. Remind me never to eat a burger in Seattle. A 
sociopath like this boy might find pleasure in poisoning 
the food he cooks :-/ 
 
Alberto Monteiro 
 
___
http://www.mccmedia.com/mailman/listinfo/brin-l

RE: Why I'm pissed off right now

 -Original Message-
 From: Gautam Mukunda [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] 
 Sent: Wednesday, April 02, 2003 03:13 PM
 To: Killer Bs Discussion
 Subject: Re: Why I'm pissed off right now

 --- Reggie Bautista [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote:
  Condolences on your loss.  I don't know what I'd do
  if something like that
  happened to our cat or any of our other animals.

  Reggie Bautista

 I'd definitely raise holy hell with the police to
 _make sure_ that the people who did it got serious
 jail time.

I'm trying for the forgive and hope they get a clue approach, but yeah, its sounding 
like they're going to be sweating for the next few months at least.

(BTW - I'm sorry I was a jerk to you here yesterday.  I was quite rude, and you don't 
deserve that. Mae Culpa)

-j-
___
http://www.mccmedia.com/mailman/listinfo/brin-l

RE: Why I'm pissed off right now

 -Original Message-
 From: Marvin Long, Jr. [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] 
 Sent: Wednesday, April 02, 2003 04:10 PM
 To: Killer Bs Discussion
 Subject: Re: Why I'm pissed off right now

 I wonder if a local news station would be interested 
 in this story?

One of the other houses has already been in conversation with reporters, and given an 
interview (they're the more photogenic family with 3 kids.. I'm the hippie sharing a 
house with 2 other programmers and a woman who raises mushrooms in the basement (not 
/that/ kind!)) and I've got a voice mail to return to the person on the story.

-j-
___
http://www.mccmedia.com/mailman/listinfo/brin-l

RE: Some semi-good news

 -Original Message-
 From: Alberto Monteiro [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] 
 Sent: Thursday, April 03, 2003 10:42 AM
 To: Killer Bs Discussion
 Subject: Re: Some semi-good news

 Jeffrey Miller wrote: 

  their kid will be flippin' burgers all summer to cover
  the cost, (...) 

 Yikes. Remind me never to eat a burger in Seattle. A 
 sociopath like this boy might find pleasure in poisoning 
 the food he cooks :-/ 

Well, we'd take you to Red Robin (http://www.redrobin.com) anyways, which I think does 
felony screening.. ;)

Seriously though.. I don't want to write things off as just a bunch of young boys who 
don't know better but there's got to be an aspect of that involved.  I'm hoping that 
whatever happens to them, they can get past this and do something productive with 
their life, maybe learn some valuable lesson.  The parents that I spoke to seem to 
really be on the ball IRT their kid - even kids from good homes screw up.

___
http://www.mccmedia.com/mailman/listinfo/brin-l

RE: Why I'm pissed off right now


--- Miller, Jeffrey [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote:
 (BTW - I'm sorry I was a jerk to you here yesterday.
  I was quite rude, and you don't deserve that. Mae
 Culpa)
 
 -j-

No problem - I was trying to figure out what the hell
was going on, then I read your post and it made sense.
 I really am very sorry - and killing a cat is not the
sort of thing I feel any degree of forgiveness for. 
Let them rot in prison.

Now, if it had been a dog, I'd be calling for the
death penalty, I have to admit...

Gautam


__
Do you Yahoo!?
Yahoo! Tax Center - File online, calculators, forms, and more
http://tax.yahoo.com
___
http://www.mccmedia.com/mailman/listinfo/brin-l

Re: Some semi-good news

--- Miller, Jeffrey [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote:
 I'm putting on my best face of forgiveness, and
 hoping that some change for the better comes into
 their lives from this, but I am still really shaken,
 and its going to take some time for me to really
 figure out how I feel.. anger?  frustration?  fear?
 loneliness?  They're all there, but muddled and
 mixed.  I'll be ok, though :)
 
 -j-

Actually, now having read this, I would say, first,
congrats to the police for catching them, but, second,
please _make sure_ that these kids are punished
severely.  Harming animals is a very strong early
indicator of psychopathic tendencies.

Gautam

__
Do you Yahoo!?
Yahoo! Tax Center - File online, calculators, forms, and more
http://tax.yahoo.com
___
http://www.mccmedia.com/mailman/listinfo/brin-l

Re: Some semi-good news

- Original Message -
From: Gautam Mukunda [EMAIL PROTECTED]
To: Killer Bs Discussion [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Sent: Thursday, April 03, 2003 12:55 PM
Subject: Re: Some semi-good news

 Actually, now having read this, I would say, first,
 congrats to the police for catching them, but, second,
 please _make sure_ that these kids are punished
 severely.  Harming animals is a very strong early
 indicator of psychopathic tendencies.

An example of this is a teenager who shot one of my former girl scouts
point blank in the forehead had been caught killing ducks at a local pond
about 5 years earlier. :-(

Dan M.

___
http://www.mccmedia.com/mailman/listinfo/brin-l

Re: Why I'm pissed off right now

- Original Message -
From: Julia Thompson [EMAIL PROTECTED]
To: Killer Bs Discussion [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Sent: Wednesday, April 02, 2003 10:35 PM
Subject: Re: Why I'm pissed off right now

 I think that *anyone* who just comes along and kills a cat (or dog!) for
 *any* reason not connected to immediate or very short-term survival of
 himself or another human being is not fit company for any human society.

Well, I would have to differ with you here.  If I, or someone else is
attacked by a dog, even if I'm very sure I or they will survive the attack,
I'll do whatever is necessary to prevent injury, not just death.

Dan M.

___
http://www.mccmedia.com/mailman/listinfo/brin-l

EFF analysis of himmlercrofts patriot II legislation

www.eff.org/Censorship/Terrorism_militias/patriot-act-II-analysis.php

Long and formatted such that it would lose subsection data if copied.
___
http://www.mccmedia.com/mailman/listinfo/brin-l

Googlewashing

http://www.theregister.co.uk/content/6/30087.html

Anti-war slogan coined, repurposed and Googlewashed... in 42 days
By Andrew Orlowski in San Francisco
Posted: 03/04/2003 at 12:12 GMT


This year marks the 100th anniversary of George Orwell's birth, and the
writer who best explained the power of language on politics would be
amazed what can be done with the Internet. 

On February 17 a front page news analysis in the New York Times bylined
by Patrick Tyler described the global anti-war protests as the emergence
of the second superpower. 

Tyler wrote: ...the huge anti-war demonstrations around the world this
weekend are reminders that there may still be two superpowers on the
planet: the United States and world public opinion. 

This potent phrase spread rapidly. 

Anti-war campaigners, peace groups and NGOs took to describing the global
popular protest as the second superpower [Greenpeace release]. And in
less than a month, the phrase was being used by UN Secretary General Kofi
Annan. [Financial Times - reg req'd]. 

And a week ago, a Google search for the phrase would have shown the
vigorous propagation of this 'meme'. 

Rub out the word 
Then came this. Entitled The Second Superpower Rears its Beautiful Head,
by James F Moore, it was accompanied by a brand new blog. 

The details need not detain us for very long, because the consequences of
this piece are much more important than its anodyne contents. 

It's a plea for net users to organize themselves as a superpower, and
represents a class of techno-utopian literature that John Perry Barlow
has been promoting - the same sappy stuff, but not as well written - for
the past ten years. 

Only note how this example is sprinkled with trigger words for
progressives, liberals and NPR listeners. It concludes - if you can find
your way through this mound of feel-good styrofoam peanuts - we do not
have to create a world where differences are resolved by war. It is not
our destiny to live in a world of destruction, tedium, and tragedy. We
will create a world of peace. 

In common with the genre, there's no social or political context,
although the author offers a single specific instruction that is very
jarring in the surrounding blandness: we must co-operate with The World
Bank. Huh? 

It's politics with the politics taken out: in short, it's revolution
lite. 

Now here's the important bit. Look what the phrase Second Superpower
produces on Google now. Try it!. Moore's essay is right there at the top.
And not just first, but it already occupies all but three of the first
thirty spots. 

The bashful Moore writes: It was nice of Dave Winer [weblog tools
vendor] and Doc Searls [ consultant] to pick up on it, even if it's not
really ready for much exposure. No matter, Moore is an overnight A-list
blogging superstar, at his very first attempt. 

Although it took millions of people around the world to compel the Gray
Lady to describe the anti-war movement as a Second Superpower, it took
only a handful of webloggers to spin the alternative meaning to
manufacture sufficient PageRank to flood Google with Moore's
alternative, neutered definition. 

Indeed, if you were wearing your Google-goggles, and the search engine
was your primary view of the world, you would have a hard time believing
that the phrase Second Superpower ever meant anything else. 

To all intents and purposes, the original meaning has been erased.
Obliterated, in just seven weeks. 

You're especially susceptible to this if you subscribe to the view that
Google's PageRank is inherently democratic, which is how Google, Inc.
describes it. 

And this Googlewash took just 42 days. 

You are in a twisty maze of weblogs, all alike 
All a strange coincidence, no doubt, but the picture darkens when you
look at a parallel conversation taking place elsewhere, whose hyperlinks
contributed to the redefinition, and help explain how this semantic
ethnic-cleansing took place so quickly. 

Moore's subversion of the meaning of Secondary Superpower - his high
PageRank from derives from followers of 'A-list' tech bloggers linking
from an eerily similar Emergent Democracy discussion list, which in
turn takes its name from a similarly essay posted by Joi Ito [Lunch -
Lunch - Lunch - Segway - Lunch - Lunch - Fawning Parody] who is a
colossus of authority in these circles, hence lots of PageRank-boosting
hyperlinks, and who like Moore, appeared from nowhere as a figure of
authority. 

Lunchin' Ito's essay is uncannily similar to Moore's - both are vague and
elusive and fail to describe how the emergent democracy might form a
legal framework, a currency, a definition of property or - most important
this, when you're being hit with a stick by a bastard - an armed
resistance (which in polite circles today, we call a military). 

As with Moore, academic and historical research in this field is vapored
away, as if by magic. 

However, we have an idea of how this utopian democracy might look, if
we follow the participants of

4th Infantry

The 4th Infantry Divsion is deploying to Iraq right
now.  To get a real sense of what the American
military is capable of right now, think about this.

For all practical purposes a nation the size of
California has been defeated by one British and the
equivalent of about 3+ American Divisions.  The
American forces are the 1st Infantry, the 101st
Airborne, and the 7th Cavalry Regiment, plus the
Marines charging north.  Together, those units have
taken well under 100 killed.  In the last few hours
they have annihilated two Republican Guard Divisions -
while I write this they are probably finishing off
another.  The 1st Infantry probably provided more than
a third of the land-based striking power of the units
involved.

The 4th Infantry - which so far has not seen a second
of combat - is the most modern infantry division in
the American military.  Many military observers
believe that its newer equipment - almost all
electronic - gives it _four times_ the capability of
the 1st Infantry.  Think about that for a second. 
Four times.  Every unit in the American military is in
the process of being upgraded to that standard, but
the ones currently in Iraq aren't there yet.

So, not only have the Allied forces performed a
military feat of historic proportions so far - they've
done it with their best troops held in reserve.

How is _that_ for sending a message?

Gautam

__
Do you Yahoo!?
Yahoo! Tax Center - File online, calculators, forms, and more
http://tax.yahoo.com
___
http://www.mccmedia.com/mailman/listinfo/brin-l

Re: christian vultures circling iraq ready to strike

2003-04-03 Thread Bryon Daly

William T Goodall wrote:

 On Wednesday, April 2, 2003, at 07:36  pm, Andrew Crystall wrote:

  On 2 Apr 2003 at 16:44, William T Goodall wrote:
 
 
  On Wednesday, April 2, 2003, at 01:24  pm, John D. Giorgis wrote:
 
  At 12:19 PM 4/2/2003 +0100 William T Goodall wrote:
  Isn't religion just so very very evil? I think it should be banned.
 
  That sounds like your religion.
 
  LOL! I don't have a religion.
 
  Yes you do.

 No I don't.

  It's anti-religion.

 No it isn't.

  And hate it as you might, it's a
  religion.

 No it isn't.

  Plain and simple.

 Wrong again!

  It's bigotry,

 No it isn't.

Haven't I seen this conversation before?  Ah, now I remember!  ...
Perhaps we should call it a draw?

-

ARTHUR:  I command you, as King of the Britons, to stand aside!

BLACK KNIGHT:  I move for no man.

ARTHUR:  So be it!

ARTHUR and BLACK KNIGHT:  Aaah!, hiyaah!, etc.

[ARTHUR chops the BLACK KNIGHT's left arm off]

ARTHUR:  Now stand aside, worthy adversary.

BLACK KNIGHT:  'Tis but a scratch.

ARTHUR:  A scratch?  Your arm's off!

BLACK KNIGHT:  No, it isn't.

ARTHUR:  Well, what's that then?

BLACK KNIGHT:  I've had worse.

ARTHUR:  You liar!

BLACK KNIGHT:  Come on, you pansy!

[clang]

Huyah!

[clang]

Hiyaah!

[clang]

Aaaah!

[ARTHUR chops the BLACK KNIGHT's right arm off]

ARTHUR:  Victory is mine!

[kneeling]

We thank Thee Lord, that in Thy mer--

BLACK KNIGHT:  Hah!

[clunk]

Come on then.

ARTHUR:  What?

BLACK KNIGHT:  Have at you!

[kick]

ARTHUR:  Eh.  You are indeed brave, Sir Knight, but the fight is mine.

BLACK KNIGHT:  Oh, had enough, eh?

ARTHUR:  Look, you stupid bastard.  You've got no arms left.

BLACK KNIGHT:  Yes I have.

ARTHUR:  Look!

BLACK KNIGHT:  Just a flesh wound.

[kick]

ARTHUR:  Look, stop that.

BLACK KNIGHT:  Chicken!

[kick]

Chickennn!

ARTHUR:  Look, I'll have your leg.

[kick]

Right!

[whop]

[ARTHUR chops the BLACK KNIGHT's right leg off]

BLACK KNIGHT:  Right.  I'll do you for that!

ARTHUR:  You'll what?

BLACK KNIGHT:  Come here!

ARTHUR:  What are you going to do, bleed on me?

BLACK KNIGHT:  I'm invincible!

ARTHUR:  You're a looney.

BLACK KNIGHT:  The Black Knight always triumphs!  Have at you!  Come on then.

[whop]

[ARTHUR chops the BLACK KNIGHT's last leg off]

BLACK KNIGHT:  Ooh.  All right, we'll call it a draw.



___
http://www.mccmedia.com/mailman/listinfo/brin-l

Re: Some semi-good news

2003-04-03 Thread Medievalbk

In a message dated 4/3/2003 11:34:14 AM US Mountain Standard Time, 
[EMAIL PROTECTED] writes:

  The charges against them for what amounts to vandalism are actually pretty 
 minor, I'm told, compared to the weapons charge (loaded weapon in a 
vehicle, 
 discharging a weapon within N yards of a school, some other stuff).  

In Arizona the cat killing could get them the most time. Or as juvies, the 
most community service. Which should not be just picking up trash.

Keep us posted, up to and including new cat's name.

William Taylor
___
http://www.mccmedia.com/mailman/listinfo/brin-l

Re: 4th Infantry

2003-04-03 Thread Adam C. Lipscomb

Gautam posted:


 The 4th Infantry Divsion is deploying to Iraq right
 now.  To get a real sense of what the American
 military is capable of right now, think about this.

 For all practical purposes a nation the size of
 California has been defeated by one British and the
 equivalent of about 3+ American Divisions.  The
 American forces are the 1st Infantry, the 101st
 Airborne, and the 7th Cavalry Regiment, plus the
 Marines charging north.  Together, those units have
 taken well under 100 killed.  In the last few hours
 they have annihilated two Republican Guard Divisions -
 while I write this they are probably finishing off
 another.  The 1st Infantry probably provided more than
 a third of the land-based striking power of the units
 involved.

 The 4th Infantry - which so far has not seen a second
 of combat - is the most modern infantry division in
 the American military.  Many military observers
 believe that its newer equipment - almost all
 electronic - gives it _four times_ the capability of
 the 1st Infantry.  Think about that for a second.
 Four times.  Every unit in the American military is in
 the process of being upgraded to that standard, but
 the ones currently in Iraq aren't there yet.

 So, not only have the Allied forces performed a
 military feat of historic proportions so far - they've
 done it with their best troops held in reserve.

 How is _that_ for sending a message?

Lies!  All American lies!  The Iraqi government, may their years be
many and their power increase, have truthfully informed us that the
forces of the mercenary invaders have taken thousands of casualties at
the hands of Iraq's brave republican guard.  In fact, I'm sure the
invaders have been pushed back all the way to Yemen by this point.

;-)

Adam C. Lipscomb
[EMAIL PROTECTED]
Silence.  I am watching television.  - Spider Jerusalem

___
http://www.mccmedia.com/mailman/listinfo/brin-l

Re: SCOUTED: US Troops Fire at Civilians in Iraq

At 22:49 02-04-2003 -0500, John Giorgis wrote:

Fifteen Iraqi civilians were packed inside the Toyota, officers said, 
along with as many of their possessions as the jammed vehicle could hold. 
Ten of them, including five children who appeared to be under 5 years old, 
were killed on the spot when the high-explosive rounds slammed into their 
target, Johnson's company reported. Of the five others, one man was so 
severely injured that medics said he was not expected to live.
One ICC trial, coming up...

Jeroen Justice be done van Baardwijk

_
Wonderful-World-of-Brin-L Website:  http://www.Brin-L.com
___
http://www.mccmedia.com/mailman/listinfo/brin-l

Re: SCOUTED: US Troops Fire at Civilians in Iraq

- Original Message -
From: J. van Baardwijk [EMAIL PROTECTED]
To: Killer Bs Discussion [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Sent: Thursday, April 03, 2003 2:13 PM
Subject: Re: SCOUTED: US Troops Fire at Civilians in Iraq

 At 22:49 02-04-2003 -0500, John Giorgis wrote:

 Fifteen Iraqi civilians were packed inside the Toyota, officers said,
 along with as many of their possessions as the jammed vehicle could
hold.
 Ten of them, including five children who appeared to be under 5 years
old,
 were killed on the spot when the high-explosive rounds slammed into
their
 target, Johnson's company reported. Of the five others, one man was so
 severely injured that medics said he was not expected to live.

 One ICC trial, coming up...

 Jeroen Justice be done van Baardwijk

So, your view is that soldiers are required to let cars run checkpoints
after numerous car bombings?  Where is that under international law.

I'm thinking about writing Dutchbat and saying that I'm told by one of
their representatives that they feel that the US is legally forbidden from
defending themselves against cars that ram their checkpoints, and see if
your superiors agree with you.  It would be a good bit of clarification,
don't you think?

Dan M.

___
http://www.mccmedia.com/mailman/listinfo/brin-l

RE: SCOUTED: US Troops Fire at Civilians in Iraq

 From: J. van Baardwijk [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]
 
 At 22:49 02-04-2003 -0500, John Giorgis wrote:
 
 Fifteen Iraqi civilians were packed inside the Toyota, 
 officers said, 
 along with as many of their possessions as the jammed 
 vehicle could hold. 
 Ten of them, including five children who appeared to be 
 under 5 years old, 
 were killed on the spot when the high-explosive rounds 
 slammed into their 
 target, Johnson's company reported. Of the five others, one 
 man was so 
 severely injured that medics said he was not expected to live.
 
 One ICC trial, coming up...

That was humor, right?  Not a serious comment, right?

If not, you just confirmed the wisdom behind not joining the ICC...

 - jmh
___
http://www.mccmedia.com/mailman/listinfo/brin-l

RE: Some semi-good news

 From: Miller, Jeffrey [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]
 
 First off, I'm -completely- amazed at all of you for the 
 emails offlist and the suggestions about what to do;

I was shocked and astounded when I read about this yesterday.  My wife was
enraged when I told her about it last night.  She was more angry about it
than I've seen in a while.

 This morning, I had a voicemail from the officer who I spoke 
 with the day before, saying that they had caught the guy!

I am so glad to hear they caught the idiots who did this.  I know you are
trying to be forgiving but I hope they are suitably punished.

  - jmh

I'd Still Like To See It In The News Maru
___
http://www.mccmedia.com/mailman/listinfo/brin-l

Re: Some semi-good news

- Original Message -
From: Horn, John [EMAIL PROTECTED]
To: 'Killer Bs Discussion' [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Sent: Thursday, April 03, 2003 2:40 PM
Subject: RE: Some semi-good news

 I am so glad to hear they caught the idiots who did this.  I know you are
 trying to be forgiving but I hope they are suitably punished.

One other worthwhile point, just punishment and forgiveness are not
inconsistent, as anyone who has successfully raised a child knows.

Dan M.

___
http://www.mccmedia.com/mailman/listinfo/brin-l

Re: Some semi-good news

2003-04-03 Thread Bryon Daly

I'm just catching up on the list messages, so my condolences on your cat are coming a 
bit late...  I'm really sorry to
hear about that whole incident - it was truly a despicable set of acts.

I'm glad to hear they caught the culprits - hopefully the throw the book at the 
non-juveniles.

-bryon


Miller, Jeffrey wrote:

 First off, I'm -completely- amazed at all of you for the emails offlist and the 
 suggestions about what to do; I've been in a state of shock about all this, and as 
 much as I'd like to express with eloquence how this has effected me, I'm still too 
 close to the event to really process it.

 At the neighborhood hardware store last night, getting new glass, the shopkeeper 
 asked why I needed 3 panes of glass, and as I told him the story, he nodded and said 
 that 2 other homes in my neighborhood had  received similar treatment (funny, the 
 cops never mentioned a string of these incidents..) I walked over and chatted with 
 the other households, introduced myself, etc.  One woman had some china in.. well, 
 whatever those special cabinets you china in are called.. broken by the shot; the 
 rest of us just dug .22 rounds out of plaster or woodwork.  Getting home, I called 
 the officer who gave me his contact number and left a message, asking for any 
 uupdates or info about a possible string of incidents, etc.

 This morning, I had a voicemail from the officer who I spoke with the day before, 
 saying that they had caught the guy!  In what can only be described as a Law  Order 
 moment, a person out walking thier dog saw a minivan/SUV driving fast through a 
 nearby neighborhood, and called 911 and reported the plates.  A nearby patrol car 
 took the call and stopped the vehicle, inside 3 teen boys and a loaded .22 rifle 
 (/slightly/ illegal in and of itself)  They impounded the vehicle and hauled them 
 down to the station, and one of them admitted to driving around, looking for windows 
 and signs to shoot up (this is a residental neighborhood in Seattle, NOT rural 
 farmland/suburbia).  The others admitted as well, including killing the cat, and 
 are, needless to say, in some serious hot water.

 The youngest is still a minor, and his parents have already contacted me and have 
 offered to pay for -all- the damages (including whatever costs are associated with 
 cremating Kira *and* the adoption/vet fees on a new cat!)  I've thanked them, and 
 accepted their offer to make some amends;  their kid will be flippin' burgers all 
 summer to cover the cost, they assure me (if he avoids juvie).  The charges against 
 them for what amounts to vandalism are actually pretty minor, I'm told, compared to 
 the weapons charge (loaded weapon in a vehicle, discharging a weapon within N yards 
 of a school, some other stuff).

 I'm putting on my best face of forgiveness, and hoping that some change for the 
 better comes into their lives from this, but I am still really shaken, and its going 
 to take some time for me to really figure out how I feel.. anger?  frustration?  
 fear? loneliness?  They're all there, but muddled and mixed.  I'll be ok, though :)

___
http://www.mccmedia.com/mailman/listinfo/brin-l

Re: Details of The Bet Re: Br!n: Re: Peter Arnett has negativeeffecton ratings

2003-04-03 Thread Marvin Long, Jr.

On Thu, 3 Apr 2003, Dan Minette wrote:

 - Original Message -
 From: Jon Gabriel [EMAIL PROTECTED]
 To: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
 Sent: Thursday, April 03, 2003 11:59 AM
 Subject: Re: Details of The Bet Re: Br!n: Re: Peter Arnett has negative
 effect on ratings

  For some reason, I'm reminded of the antiagathics vs. germanium as
 currency
  storyline from Cities in Flight by Blish.  Has anyone else read it?

 Yup, about 25 years ago. :-)

About 15 years for me, but yeah.

Summer grass - all that |   Marvin Long
Remains of great warriors and   |   Austin, Texas
Imperial dreams.|
|
 - Bassho   |
___
http://www.mccmedia.com/mailman/listinfo/brin-l

Re: SCOUTED: US Troops Fire at Civilians in Iraq

At 14:27 03-04-2003 -0600, Dan Minette wrote:

 Fifteen Iraqi civilians were packed inside the Toyota, officers said,
 along with as many of their possessions as the jammed vehicle could
 hold. Ten of them, including five children who appeared to be under 5
 years old, were killed on the spot when the high-explosive rounds
 slammed into their target, Johnson's company reported. Of the five
 others, one man was so severely injured that medics said he was not
 expected to live.

 One ICC trial, coming up...
So, your view is that soldiers are required to let cars run checkpoints 
after numerous car bombings?
No, I am merely pointing out something that you can expect to see happen -- 
killings of civilians by US troops being considered war crimes. For enemies 
of the US, incidents like this are golden opportunies to accuse the US of 
committing war crimes.

Personally, I think there should be a war crimes tribunal for matters like 
this once the war is over, if (part of) the international community demands 
it. Based on what I've read about the incident, I don't think it 
constitutes a war crime, and I definitely don't believe the ICC would find 
the soldiers in question guilty, but if an ICC trial is demanded, then 
there should be one.


I'm thinking about writing Dutchbat and saying that I'm told by one of 
their representatives that they feel that the US is legally forbidden from 
defending themselves against cars that ram their checkpoints, and see if 
your superiors agree with you.
You *could* do that of course, but er... where and when did I say I 
represent Dutchbat? Where and when did I say my views represent the views 
of Dutchbat or the views of our Defense Department? And where did say that 
the US is legally forbidden from defending themselves against cars that ram 
their checkpoints?

In fact, I have nothing to do with Dutchbat. Dutchbat was formed for 
military operations in the Balkan; my job does not include any work for 
Dutchbat.

And the Dutchbat's superior officers are not *my* superiors. The superiors 
of Dutchbat are military, my superiors (all the way up to the Minister of 
Defense) are civilians.

Jeroen Make love, not war van Baardwijk

_
Wonderful-World-of-Brin-L Website:  http://www.Brin-L.com
___
http://www.mccmedia.com/mailman/listinfo/brin-l

Taiwan Inelgible for WHO Aid Against SARS

2003-04-03 Thread J.D. Giorgis

At this point, I say that the United States should
recognize Taiwanese independence to whatever extent it
asks us to, and tell Beijing to take their objections
and stuff it.  Really, what will Red China do to us?  
Eventually, Beijing will come back to reality and just
get over it.   Time to do the right thing.

JDG



http://straitstimes.asia1.com.sg/topstories/story/0,4386,180847,00.html?

TAIWAN
Anger over lack of help from WHO 
TAIPEI - The President, the media and ordinary
Taiwanese are outraged by the World Health
Organisation's (WHO) failure to send its experts to
tend to Taiwan's SARS outbreak, despite reports of 14
confirmed cases.

The reason: Taiwan is not a member of the United
Nations.
 
They have also lashed out at Beijing for not giving
the WHO a tacit go-ahead to work with Taiwan's health
authorities.

Beijing, which views Taiwan as a breakaway province,
has objected to its attempts to become a member of the
UN or any other international organisation. 

'Sars knows no national boundaries,' said President
Chen Shui-bian on Monday.

'Taiwan's being excluded from the WHO's help list
shows disregard for the interest of 23 million
Taiwanese.' 

However, the WHO said Taiwan was getting the help it
needed. 

The United States, Taiwan's key ally, has so far sent
two medical experts to help combat Sars.

As of yesterday, there were 78 suspected cases, with
14 confirmed to have contracted the virus after trips
to China and Hongkong. 

The government has suspended shipping traffic between
China and Taiwan's defence outpost of Matsu, and
postponed sports and cultural exchanges between the
outlying Taiwanese island of Kinmen and the Chinese
costal city of Xiamen. 

It has also ordered more than 600 people who have
close contact with Sars patients to stay home. --
Lawrence Chung, Taiwan Bureau 


=
---
John D. Giorgis   -  [EMAIL PROTECTED]
  Tonight I have a message for the brave and oppressed people of Iraq:
 Your enemy is not surrounding your country  your enemy is ruling your  
 country. And the day he and his regime are removed from power will be
   the day of your liberation.  -George W. Bush 1/29/03

__
Do you Yahoo!?
Yahoo! Tax Center - File online, calculators, forms, and more
http://tax.yahoo.com
___
http://www.mccmedia.com/mailman/listinfo/brin-l

RE: I hate inches! :-(

2003-04-03 Thread Damon


Lego people actually work amazingly well on hex maps.

Both my wife Anita and a good friend of ours named Mike are avid Lego 
collectors, and let me tell you, that makes playing Champions with them 
really interesting.  I have yet to see a Champions character that couldn't 
be represented fairly easily with Legos.  The tie-in possibilities are 
endless...
Haha, Reggie you hit on the antithesis of all that I am as a gamer and a 
hobbyist! :)

I am a very AVID and ACTIVE collector and PAINTER of figures...the idea of 
an unpainted figure (unless its a work in progress) is undesirable by me, 
and indeed nothing less than the right monster (character/prop) for the 
situation is acceptable.

Here's my web gallery for a few Hundred Years War billmen I painted several 
years ago. I think my scanner is working again so I may scan up some of my 
War of the Roses foot knights later on to add to the page: 
www.geocities.com/garrand/geo/gallery.html

So lego guys would be utterly unacceptable to me! :P

Damon.


Damon Agretto
[EMAIL PROTECTED]
Qui desiderat pacem, praeparet bellum.
http://www.geocities.com/garrand.geo/index.html
Now Building: Ace's BRDM-1

___
http://www.mccmedia.com/mailman/listinfo/brin-l

Re: SCOUTED: US Troops Fire at Civilians in Iraq

2003-04-03 Thread iaamoac

--- In [EMAIL PROTECTED], Horn, John [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote:
  One ICC trial, coming up...
 
 That was humor, right?  Not a serious comment, right?
 
 If not, you just confirmed the wisdom behind not joining the ICC...
 
  - jmh

John,

You Got It!

Everybody, Jeroen is NOT BEING SERIOUS ABOUT THIS!Come on now - 
no serious person could say something that stupid!  

Jeroen is *flaming* us.  

Some people flame discussion lists by writing profanity-laden 
tirades.   Other people flame discussion lists by posting absolutely 
ridiculous and insulting statements under a veneer of serious left-
liberalism.   Obviously, this second type of flaming is much harder 
to recognize and even more tricky to regulate - but it is just a 
great a threat to the long-term health of a discussion list as the 
first type of flaming.

The only solution is for more and more people to recognize the threat 
that this type of flaming poses to our List, and develop the 
consensus to permit our List Admin's to regulate it.   Of course 
Jeroen isn't serious about something totally absurd as this - but if 
we let him, we'll all waste valuable time trying to demonstrate his 
own absurdity to himn - and the truly valuable discussions on this 
List will get pushed to the side.   Its happened time and time and 
time again here folks. 

Please, there is a better way.  If  you feel the same way that I do, 
please e-mail the List Admins and ask them to take action against the 
fundamentally non-serious list-flaming of Jeroen.

Thank you.

I now leave you to await Jeroen's protestions that he really is 
serious.  Uh huh, whatever, Jeroen.

JDG

___
http://www.mccmedia.com/mailman/listinfo/brin-l

Re: 4th Infantry

2003-04-03 Thread Richard Baker

Adam said:

 Lies!  All American lies!  The Iraqi government, may their years be
 many and their power increase, have truthfully informed us that the
 forces of the mercenary invaders have taken thousands of casualties at
 the hands of Iraq's brave republican guard.

Millions of casualties! At the hands of a few villagers with pitchforks!
By the time the Republican Guard have finished with them, the
casualties will be in the billions!

Rich
___
http://www.mccmedia.com/mailman/listinfo/brin-l

Re: 4th Infantry

- Original Message -
From: Richard Baker [EMAIL PROTECTED]
To: Killer Bs Discussion [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Sent: Thursday, April 03, 2003 3:45 PM
Subject: Re: 4th Infantry

 Adam said:

  Lies!  All American lies!  The Iraqi government, may their years be
  many and their power increase, have truthfully informed us that the
  forces of the mercenary invaders have taken thousands of casualties at
  the hands of Iraq's brave republican guard.

 Millions of casualties! At the hands of a few villagers with pitchforks!
 By the time the Republican Guard have finished with them, the
 casualties will be in the billions!

CNN just got cell phone call from the information minister of Iraq stating
that the US was now pushed through Africa and has its back to the sea on
the south coast of South Africa.  Film at 10.

Dan M.

___
http://www.mccmedia.com/mailman/listinfo/brin-l

Scouted: China hits back on human rights

http://www.cnn.com/2003/WORLD/asiapcf/east/04/03/china.rights.reut/index.htm
l

BEIJING, China (Reuters) -- China retaliated on Thursday against a U.S.
report critical of its human rights performance, accusing America of turning
a blind eye to violations at home while pretending to be the world's judge
of human rights. 

A report by the State Council, or cabinet, titled The Human Rights Record
of the United States in 2002, was Beijing's answer to an annual State
Department report highly critical of China's human rights record issued
earlier this week. 

The Chinese report, issued by the official Xinhua news wire, said Washington
had given distorted pictures and levied criticism of human rights conditions
in China and elsewhere, but failed to address the human rights problems in
the United States. 

Therefore, it is necessary to make known to the world the human rights
violations in the United States in 2002, it said. 

snipped

  - jmh

There Are No Words Maru
___
http://www.mccmedia.com/mailman/listinfo/brin-l

RE: SCOUTED: US Troops Fire at Civilians in Iraq

At 16:38 03-04-2003 -0500, Damon Agretto wrote:

That was humor, right?  Not a serious comment, right?

If not, you just confirmed the wisdom behind not joining the ICC...
I just as well assume Jeroen failed to read my post in response to this. 
Or ignored it...
Neither, actually. Between sending my original message and hitting Send 
after writing *this* message, I have received only two messages from you: 
the one quoted above, and the one about you being a collector and painter 
of figures.

Jeroen van Baardwijk

_
Wonderful-World-of-Brin-L Website:  http://www.Brin-L.com
___
http://www.mccmedia.com/mailman/listinfo/brin-l

Re: 4th Infantry

2003-04-03 Thread Russell Chapman

Adam C. Lipscomb wrote:

Lies!  All American lies!  The Iraqi government, may their years be
many and their power increase, have truthfully informed us that the
forces of the mercenary invaders have taken thousands of casualties at
the hands of Iraq's brave republican guard.  In fact, I'm sure the
invaders have been pushed back all the way to Yemen by this point.
The radio this morning suggested that the Iraqi information minister is 
practising for his new job. The Americans are at the airport, and he is 
telling the people they are nowhere near the city of Baghdad...

As an Iraqi immigrant in the west, it is logical he would become a taxi 
driver who lies about the distance between the airport and the city

Cheers
Russell C.
___
http://www.mccmedia.com/mailman/listinfo/brin-l

Re: 4th Infantry

On Thu, Apr 03, 2003 at 11:37:52AM -0800, Gautam Mukunda wrote:

 For all practical purposes a nation the size of California has been
 defeated by one British and the equivalent of about 3+ American
 Divisions.

Already defeated? Are you sure you're not counting your chickens before
they're hatched? I hope you're right, but I fear there may be some
serious fighting yet to come.


-- 
Erik Reuter [EMAIL PROTECTED]   http://www.erikreuter.net/
___
http://www.mccmedia.com/mailman/listinfo/brin-l

Re: SCOUTED: US Troops Fire at Civilians in Iraq

On Thu, Apr 03, 2003 at 09:37:32PM -, iaamoac wrote:

 Please, there is a better way.  If you feel the same way that I do,
 please e-mail the List Admins and ask them to take action against the
 fundamentally non-serious list-flaming of Jeroen.

If you feel the way I do, please DON'T email the list admins, and
instead ignore self-righteous calls for action like this. If you don't
like it, ignore it. Easy.


-- 
Erik Reuter [EMAIL PROTECTED]   http://www.erikreuter.net/
___
http://www.mccmedia.com/mailman/listinfo/brin-l

Re: 4th Infantry

--- Erik Reuter [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote:
 On Thu, Apr 03, 2003 at 11:37:52AM -0800, Gautam
 Mukunda wrote:
 
  For all practical purposes a nation the size of
 California has been
  defeated by one British and the equivalent of
 about 3+ American
  Divisions.
 
 Already defeated? Are you sure you're not counting
 your chickens before
 they're hatched? I hope you're right, but I fear
 there may be some
 serious fighting yet to come.

 Erik Reuter [EMAIL PROTECTED]  

I think there will probably be significant fighting
yet to come - but I think it is also clear that the
forces in theater are more than sufficient to defeat
Iraq's armies in the field.  They might retreat to
Baghdad and try and make life difficult for us, but
they can't _win_ on the battlefield, at least.  They
can just delay their loss for a little while -
probably not even that long.  This is an astonishing
feat.  I do hope that the people who were criticizing
the plan as a failure feel at least a little
embarassed, though - I find it amazing that so many
members of the media (although not the general public
which was, as usual, far wiser than so-called elites)
were panicked because victory did not come
instantaneously.

Gautam

__
Do you Yahoo!?
Yahoo! Tax Center - File online, calculators, forms, and more
http://tax.yahoo.com
___
http://www.mccmedia.com/mailman/listinfo/brin-l

Re: Calls for an Attack on Riyadh Re: Br!n: David Frum on the WarPlans

2003-04-03 Thread Deborah Harrell

--- John D. Giorgis [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote:
 Deborah Harrell wrote:

 much snippage 
 *Technical point*  Your quote was NOT what he said!
 
 
 Deborah, you snipped too far.
 
 Here is what was written:
 
 The difference  between now and WWII is that such
 people would not be
 allowed to commit similar errors 12 years later,
 like..  attacking in
 180 degrees the wrong direction.  
 
 Saddam could have waited.  The people who are
 killing Americans, waging
 jihad against our civilization and corrupting our
 leaders live in Riyadh.


 
 Dr. Brin is not simply making the North Korea
 argument (i.e. isn't North
 Korea or X a greater and more immediate threat
 traq?)
 
 No, Dr. Brin has clearly called our failure to
 attack Riyadh an error.
 
 Now, maybe that's not what he intended (his most
 recent post basically
 retracts the above comment as being sardonic), but
 I did not misstate the
 actual words that were written.

John -

When I see something in quotes, I expect it to be
*exactly* what the person said/wrote; if words are
left out, I expect to see 'snip' or '...' (as you
did above: ...similar errors 12 years later,
 like..  attacking in
 180 degrees the wrong direction )

If a summary or extrapolation is being made, then the
words should be in ' 's instead of  s; or else they
should be preceded or followed by It seems to me
or one surmises etc.

Combining words without showing that there was a
discontinuity is like combining 2 pictures without
stating Edited for composition or something to that
effect.

Debbi

__
Do you Yahoo!?
Yahoo! Tax Center - File online, calculators, forms, and more
http://tax.yahoo.com
___
http://www.mccmedia.com/mailman/listinfo/brin-l

RE: SCOUTED: US Troops Fire at Civilians in Iraq

2003-04-03 Thread Damon


Neither, actually. Between sending my original message and hitting Send 
after writing *this* message, I have received only two messages from you: 
the one quoted above, and the one about you being a collector and painter 
of figures.
I had sent a post a few days ago stating that the vehicle was requested to 
stop several times (including waving of hands, warning shots, shooting out 
the radiator). The vehicle failed to stop, for whatever reason (confusion 
of the driver, lack of respect for US weapons, insanity, coercion, etc), 
but the main point is that the soldiers took appropriate action when the 
vehicle failed to stop: they shot it. Not to kill innocent civilians, but 
to protect themselves from Iraqi suicide bombers. The fact that it was 
filled with refugees is very regrettable, but I think the soldiers took 
appropriate action with regard to the situation, their understanding of the 
situation at the time, and the need to protect and secure themselves from harm.

IOW, this is NOT a case of criminal negligence.

Damon.


Damon Agretto
[EMAIL PROTECTED]
Qui desiderat pacem, praeparet bellum.
http://www.geocities.com/garrand.geo/index.html
Now Building: Ace's BRDM-1

___
http://www.mccmedia.com/mailman/listinfo/brin-l

Re: SCOUTED: US Troops Fire at Civilians in Iraq

At 21:37 03-04-2003 +, John Giorgis wrote:

Everybody, Jeroen is NOT BEING SERIOUS ABOUT THIS!Come on now - no 
serious person could say something that stupid!

Jeroen is *flaming* us.
Snipped rest of Giorgis's extensive umpteenth personal attack against me

John, please limit yourself to attacking the *arguments* you disagree with 
and refrain from attacking the *people* you disagree with. Insulting your 
opponents does not provide any positive contribution to the discussions 
whatsoever but only serves to disrupt this list. Thank you for your 
cooperation.

Quote from the Etiquette Guidelines (full text available at www.brin-l.com ):

Personal attacks, whether direct or indirect are not welcome. These should 
be handled off list, and if you disagree with some controversial point, 
direct the attack at the argument, not the person.

Jeroen Architectus Websiticum van Baardwijk

_
Wonderful-World-of-Brin-L Website:  http://www.Brin-L.com
___
http://www.mccmedia.com/mailman/listinfo/brin-l

Re: You know what would be cool?

2003-04-03 Thread Deborah Harrell

--- Julia Thompson [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote:
 Deborah Harrell wrote:
  --- Horn, John [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote:

   That would make it tough.  Are you done with
 your residency and all that
   good stuff?..sniplet.. I dropped out of
   gaming for several years after college and
 really missed it...snip
   Finally I stumbled into a group via a signup
 sheet at a local comic shop.  I
   sort of took over the group and we've been
 playing ever since.
  
  Finished residency in '91; I suppose I _could_
 check out the local scene as you did (hurrah for
  initiative!), 
 
 So, what did you roll?
 
 duck

Whooo, wicked woman!  ;P

*I'll* never tell...aren't warriors cute when they're
waving their swords about?  smirk 

Roll The Bones Maru  ;)

__
Do you Yahoo!?
Yahoo! Tax Center - File online, calculators, forms, and more
http://tax.yahoo.com
___
http://www.mccmedia.com/mailman/listinfo/brin-l

Re: Some semi-good news

2003-04-03 Thread Kevin Tarr

At 10:33 AM 4/3/2003 -0800, you wrote:
snip the not good, but better news
-j-


/agree with everyone. I am still sorry it happened. I am glad the police 
caught them. It sounds like at least one has parents willing to punish 
their child, let's hope the other two do the same.

Kevin Tarr

___
http://www.mccmedia.com/mailman/listinfo/brin-l

Re: Ad Astra

2003-04-03 Thread Damon

My #1 reccommendation to you if you want to sell units is to make it D20 
compatable. This can be as intrusive or unobtrusive as you want it. I 
assume the real MEAT of the setting is...the setting! Therefore the setting 
will stand on its own. However, I've found that a lot of people will reject 
something because its not D20...not neccessarily because D20 is the be all 
to end all ruleset, but because its familiar and easy to switch genres 
with a few tweaks here and there.

Hell, I'd be willing to help write the rules section if you have no 
desire to do so yourself.

Damon.

Damon Agretto
[EMAIL PROTECTED]
Qui desiderat pacem, praeparet bellum.
http://www.geocities.com/garrand.geo/index.html
Now Building: Ace's BRDM-1

___
http://www.mccmedia.com/mailman/listinfo/brin-l

RE: SCOUTED: US Troops Fire at Civilians in Iraq

At 17:35 03-04-2003 -0500, Damon Agretto wrote:

Neither, actually. Between sending my original message and hitting Send 
after writing *this* message, I have received only two messages from you: 
the one quoted above, and the one about you being a collector and painter 
of figures.
I had sent a post a few days ago stating that the vehicle was requested to 
stop several times (including waving of hands, warning shots, shooting out 
the radiator).
snip

Oh, *that* post! I thought you were referring to some message you sent (but 
which I didn't receive) in reply to my initial statement.

Thanks for clearing that up.


IOW, this is NOT a case of criminal negligence.
Doesn't look like criminal negligence to me, either.

Jeroen Make love, not war van Baardwijk

_
Wonderful-World-of-Brin-L Website:  http://www.Brin-L.com
___
http://www.mccmedia.com/mailman/listinfo/brin-l

Re: SCOUTED: US Troops Fire at Civilians in Iraq

From: Erik Reuter [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Reply-To: Killer Bs Discussion [EMAIL PROTECTED]
To: Killer Bs Discussion [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Subject: Re: SCOUTED: US Troops Fire at Civilians in Iraq
Date: Thu, 3 Apr 2003 17:24:21 -0500
On Thu, Apr 03, 2003 at 09:37:32PM -, iaamoac wrote:

 Please, there is a better way.  If you feel the same way that I do,
 please e-mail the List Admins and ask them to take action against the
 fundamentally non-serious list-flaming of Jeroen.
If you feel the way I do, please DON'T email the list admins, and
instead ignore self-righteous calls for action like this. If you don't
like it, ignore it. Easy.
IOW, the best response to trolling is ignoring the provocation.

Jon
ROU Hard Learned Lessons
_
Add photos to your e-mail with MSN 8. Get 2 months FREE*.  
http://join.msn.com/?page=features/featuredemail

___
http://www.mccmedia.com/mailman/listinfo/brin-l

RE: Some semi-good news

2003-04-03 Thread Gary L. Nunn


 I'm putting on my best face of forgiveness, and hoping that 
 some change for the better comes into their lives from this, 
 but I am still really shaken, and its going to take some time 
 for me to really figure out how I feel.. anger?  frustration? 
  fear? loneliness?  They're all there, but muddled and mixed. 
  I'll be ok, though :)


I guess the fact that the parents are willing to make amends is a
positive thing. So many parents seem to have the attitude of Not My
Child. And I guess that the good news is that aside from your cat,
there were no human injuries or deaths. A .22 bullet can travel a long
way. I am sorry about your cat, but very glad that you were not hurt..
It could have been *much* worse..

Gary


___
http://www.mccmedia.com/mailman/listinfo/brin-l

Re: Taiwan Inelgible for WHO Aid Against SARS

2003-04-03 Thread Deborah Harrell

--- J.D. Giorgis [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote:
snip  

http://straitstimes.asia1.com.sg/topstories/story/0,4386,180847,00.html?
 
 TAIWAN
 Anger over lack of help from WHO 
 TAIPEI - The President, the media and ordinary
 Taiwanese are outraged by the World Health
 Organisation's (WHO) failure to send its experts to
 tend to Taiwan's SARS outbreak, despite reports of
 14 confirmed cases.
 
 The reason: Taiwan is not a member of the United
 Nations.
  
 They have also lashed out at Beijing for not giving
 the WHO a tacit go-ahead to work with Taiwan's
 health authorities.
 
 Beijing, which views Taiwan as a breakaway province,
 has objected to its attempts to become a member of
 the UN or any other international organisation. 
 
 'Sars knows no national boundaries,' said President
 Chen Shui-bian on Monday...
snip

Idiots. If SARS turns into a deadly pandemic, massive
cooperation between nations will be necessary.  And
refusing aid _now_ will only help this virus become
more prevalent.  At least US experts are helping (and
the CDC and WHO work closely together).

Maybe we should call this epidemic of stupid
stubborness going around Black Knight Syndrome.  :P

Debbi
who would credit the poster who reminded me of this,
but I've already deleted that post!

__
Do you Yahoo!?
Yahoo! Tax Center - File online, calculators, forms, and more
http://tax.yahoo.com
___
http://www.mccmedia.com/mailman/listinfo/brin-l

RE: I hate inches! :-(